Commons Sitting of 28 February 1906

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Kingston-upon-Hull Corporation Bill; London Outer Circle Railway Bill; Manchester Corporation Bill, read a second time, and committed.
PETITIONS.
  JUVENILE SMOKING.
  Petition from North Durham, for legislation; to lie upon the Table.
  LAND VALUES (ASSESSMENT AND RATING BILL).
  Petitions in favour; from Bethnal Green, Eccles, and Forces; to lie upon the Table.
  SUGAR TAX.
  Petition from Sheffield, for repeal; to lie upon the Table.
  BRITISH MUSEUM.
  Petition of the Trustees of the British Museum (King's Recommendation signified), for grant-in-aid; referred to the Committee of Supply.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  ENDOWED SCHOOLS ACT, 1809, AND AMENDING ACTS.
  Paper [presented 27th February] to be printed. [No. 63.]
  POST OFFICE (MONEY ORDERS).
  Copy presented, of the Postal Order (Inland) Regulations, 1905, dated 12th October 1905 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  POST OFFICE (MONEY ORDERS).
  Copy presented, of the Postal Order (Colonial) Amendment (No. 6) Regulations, 1905, dated 29th September, 1905 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  NATIONAL DEBT (SAVINGS BANKS AND FRIENDLY SOCIETIES).
  Annual Account presented, for the period ended 20th November, 1905 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 64.]
  BRITISH SOUTH AFRICA COMPANY.
  Copy presented, of Financial Statements of the British South Africa Company for 1902–3, 1903–4, 1904–5, and Estimates for 1903–4, 1904–5, and 1905–6 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  BANN AND LOUGH NEAGH DRAINAGE.
  Copy presented, of Report to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland on the Bann and Lough Neagh Drainage, by Sir Alexander R. Binnie [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS 1906–7 (VOTE ON ACCOUNT).
  Estimate presented, showing the several Services for which a Vote on Account is required for the year ending 31st March, 1907 [by Command]; referred to the Committee of Supply, and to be printed. [No. 65.]
  PAPER LAID UPON THE TABLE BY THE CLERK OF THE HOUSE.
  Private Bills, Copy of Rules for the Practice and Procedure of the Referees on Private Bills [in pursuance of Standing Order 88]; to be printed. [No. 66.]
  BRITISH MUSEUM.
  Account ordered, "of the Income and Expenditure of the British Museum (Special Trust Funds) for the year ending the 31st day of March 1906; and return of the number of persons admitted to visit the Museum and the British Museum (Natural History) in each year from 1900 to 1905, both years inclusive; together with a statement of the progress made in the arrangement and description of the collections; and an account of objects added to them in the year 1905."—(Mr. Rothschild.)
  RAILWAY, ETC., BILLS.
  Copy ordered, "of Report by Board of Trade upon all the Bills and Provisional Orders of Session 1906 relating to railways, canals, tramways, harbours, and tidal waters, and the supply of electricity, gas, and water."—(Mr. Lloyd-George.)
  PAUPERISM (ENGLAND AND WALES) (MONTHLY STATEMENTS).
  Copy ordered, "of statements for each month of the year 1906 of the number of paupers relieved in England and Wales (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 40, of Session 1905)."—(Mr. Runciman.)
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Proposed Government Amendments to Transvaal Labour Ordinance.
  COLONEL LEGGE: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will lay upon the Table of the House the amendments which the Government have decided to introduce into the Transvaal Ordinance of 1905.
  (Answered by My. Churchill.) The method by which the decision of the Government in this matter can most conveniently be carried into effect is still under consideration, and a full statement of the steps to be taken will be made in due course. There will then be no objection to laying the text of the alterations upon the Table of the House.

  Veto of Home Government on Legislation of Self-Governing Colonies.
  COLONEL LEGGE: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies on how many occasions since the year 1855 the Crown has exercised the right of veto on legislation by the self-governing Colonies.
  (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) A Return, supplementary to House of Commons Return No. 362, of 1901, will be presented to Parliament if the hon. Member will move for such a Return.

  Lord Milner and Corporal Punishment of Chinese Labourers.
  MR. MACKARNESS: To ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether Lord, Milner's attention has now been called to the statements contained in Blue-books (Cd. 2819 and Cd. 2786) that prior to June 1905, corporal punishment had been inflicted by the mine authorities of the Witwatersrand upon their Chinese
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  labourers, and that this took place with his knowledge and sanction; whether, seeing that this corporal punishment was in direct contravention of the assurances given, in February 1904, by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton to the Chinese Minister in London, and telegraphed to Lord Milner, Lord Milner has been asked for any explanation of his conduct, and, if so, what is the nature of his explanation.
  (Answered by Mr Churchill.) I desire to refer the hon. Member to the statement offered by Lord Milner yesterday in another place.

  Chinese Labourers—Punishment of the "Cangue."
  MR. MACKARNESS: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can say whether the form of punishment called the cangue, or head collar, inflicted as stated in Blue-book (Cd. 2819, p. 22) on Chinese labourers in the mines in the Witwatersrand, was inflicted by the mine authorities with the knowledge or sanction of any official then holding office under the Crown; and, if so, who was the official, and has he been called on for an explanation of his conduct.
  (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) No, Sir; there is nothing to show that this form of punishment was inflicted with the knowledge or sanction of an official.

  Government Contracts for Ordnance Work.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: To ask the Secretary of State for War if his attention has been directed to the rule established by Mr. Secretary Stanhope, in view of the capital expenditure incurred by the great ordnance firms of Sheffield and Newcastle in response to Government invitation, that two-thirds of the War Office requirements for ordnance should be placed with the trade and one-third with the ordnance factories; and, having regard to the precedents established by successive Secretaries of State, he will undertake himself to abide by the rule.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The practice laid bown by Mr. Secretary Stanhope was probably a wise one, though it cannot be said to be based on any abstract rule. I may, however, say that

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  there is not at present any intention of disturbing the practice of the department in this respect.

  Transvaal Garrison.
  MR. STANLEY WILSON: To ask the Secretary of State for War if Imperial troops are to be retained in the Transvaal when it has become a self-governing Colony.
  (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) The conditions prevailing in the Transvaal are for the time being exceptional and unprecendented, and any disposition of Imperial forces which may he deemed necessary for the effective maintenance of public security will not be affected by the constitutional changes which are in contemplation.

  Royal Irish Rifles Militia Training.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware of the inconvenience and loss of civil pay occasioned to men of the Militia battalions, Royal Irish Rifles, by having to assemble for annual training in the middle of one week and to disband in the middle of another week; and whether he will give instructions that, in future, the four Royal Irish Rifles Militia battalions be assembled on a Monday and disbanded on a Saturday.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) I am not aware of any inconvenience having been caused by the arrangements for the training of these Militia battalions. These matters are entirely in the hands of the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief; but I will cause inquiries to be made and will communicate the result of these inquiries to the hon. and gallant Member.

  Effect of New German Tariff on British Goods.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: To ask the President of the Board of Trade what is the result of the representations made to the German Government with reference to the new tariff which comes into force to-morrow against British goods, and particularly if the enhanced duty of 20s. per cwt. upon a certain class of files made in Sheffield will be withdrawn in favour of the present duty of 7s. 6d. per cwt., or a less duty.
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  (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) Since the representations referred to were made to the German Government a number of reductions in the German tariff have been made. It is not possible to say how far the German Government may have been influenced by the British representations, but several of the reductions conceded affect articles included in these representations; and, although there is at present no commercial treaty between the United Kingdom and Germany, British traders will benefit by those reductions. For example, the duty imposed under the general tariff on the class of files referred to in the Question has been reduced from about 20s. to about 14s per cwt. It is true that this concession was made in negotiation with Switzerland, but it will apply also to similar files from Sheffield.

  Effect of New Russian Tariff on British Medicines.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: To ask the President of the Board of Trade if the new tariff coming into force to-morrow in All the Russias against British goods increases the duties on the same scale as applied to medicines, namely, from 24 to 40 roubles per pood, the bottles, tins, and paper in which the medicines are packed being included in the weight for duty; and having regard to the effect such increased duties will have upon British trade with Russia, what representations have been made to St. Petersburg on the subject, and with what result.
  (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) The increase in the Russian duty on medicines from 24 to 40 roubles, referred to in the Question, will not be applied to British goods, since the existing rate of 24 roubles has been conceded to France under the new Russo-French Commercial Treaty, and can consequently be claimed by British exporters in virtue of the most-favoured-nation provision of the Anglo-Russian Treaty.

  Sale of Goods confiscated by Customs Authorities.
  MR. H. H. MARKS: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that some 5 cwt. of saccharine, of the value of about £700, consigned to a London firm under a false declaration as to its description and landed from an Ostend mail steamer at Dover, was

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  recently seized by the Customs authorities at Dover, taken out into the bay, and poured into the sea; and whether he will consider the advisability of securing that in future goods so seized, instead of being thrown away, should be sold and the proceeds applied to some useful public purpose.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) The Question appears to refer to four drums containing chemical substances imported at Dover during February, 1905. The goods in question were not smuggled, but were abandoned by the importer apparently because they were found to be liable to the saccharine duty. Owing to chemical action while the goods were in store the tins corroded and unhealthy fumes were given off, and, as the sanitary authorities objected, the goods had to be destroyed. I may add that confiscated goods are periodically sold by auction by the Customs Department, and that no goods are destroyed unless they are worthless or unsaleable.

  Regulations for Admission to Training Colleges.
  MR. SEARS: To ask the President to the Board of Education whether he will consider the advisability of modifying the regulations issued last year relating to the admission of students to a course of study for an university degree in training colleges, so far as such regulations require seven distinctions on the entrance examination in addition to mathematics.

  Regulations for Training School Teachers.
  MR. SEARS: To ask the President of the Board of Education whether he will revise the Regulations for Training Teachers, 1905, under which a three-years' student, who having taken an university examination for a degree fails to pass, will be recognised for one year only after the close of his period of training, so far as they provide that at the end of that year such recognition will cease unless he has then passed either the final university examination for a degree or certificate examination of the Board.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Board are receiving representations in regard to these points from the universities, training colleges, and other bodies interested, which are being carefully considered. The
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  Board are not yet in a position to give a definite reply. In the meantime it may be pointed out that the regulations referred to in this Question include mathematics as one of the seven subjects in which distinction must be obtained.

  Receipt and Expenditure of the Development Grant (Ireland) Fund.
  MR. CLANCY: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will grant a Return showing the payments into and out of the Development Grant (Ireland) Fund since its institution to the present time, and particularly the balances to the credit of the fund in each financial year.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) My right hon. friend has asked me to reply to this Question. It is provided by Section 1 (5) of The Ireland Development Grant Act, 1903, that the Lord-Lieutenant shall, as soon as may be after the close of each financial year, make a Report to Parliament of all his proceedings under the Act. This provision has been duly observed, and the information desired will be found in the Reports. The latest Report, dated 19th May, 1905, is published as House of Commons Paper [Cd. 2539] of that year.

  Suggested Introduction of a Seed Supply Bill.
  MR. O'MALLEY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been drawn to a resolution passed by the Oughterard, county Galway, Board of Guardians requesting the Government to pass a Seed Supply Act, to enable the Galway County Council to make provision in the rate about to be made, for collection of the first instalment for the amount clue for the seed potatoes given out last year because of the failure of the potato crop; and, if so, whether the Government will introduce a Bill sufficiently early to meet the difficulty, and thus relieve, to some extent, the already overburdened ratepayers of the Oughterard and other poor unions in the West of Ireland.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) A resolution to the effect mentioned has been received. It is intended to introduce the Seed Supply Bill at an early date.

  Improvement of Kaffir Compounds in South Africa.
  MR. HARMOOD - BANNER: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the fact that the Kaffirs reside in compounds which consist of limited enclosures surrounded by walls or other fencing, whereas the Chinese have large areas of 2,000 acres or more surrounding the buildings in which they sleep and live, available for their free movement and recreation, it is proposed to improve Kaffirs' enclosures.
  (Answered by Mr. Churchill) Entirely new compounds had to be built for the Chinese. Regulations are to be enforced for improving Kaffir compounds, as the hon. Member will see by reference to page 141 of Cd. 2819. The residence of Kaffirs in the mine areas is not subject to the same stringent conditions as are applied to the Chinese.

  Condition of Kaffirs Employed at Kimberley Diamond Mines.
  MR. NIELD: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Kaffirs employed in the diamond mines at Kimberley are required to reside, when not at work, in enclosed or fenced-in areas covered with wire netting, and are subject to regulations restricting their individual liberty; and, if so, whether any representations or complaints have been received by His Majesty's Government relative to the conditions of residence, employment, or conduct of such native labourers; and, if so, what action has the Government taken, or proposes to take, with regard to such complaints.
  (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) The conditions of employment of Kaffirs in the Kimberley diamond mines are of the nature described, which arise from the special needs of the industry. His Majesty's Government have not received any representations or complaints, but I would point out that the period of contract is usually only three months, after which the Kaffir returns to reside with his wife and family, in the country which his labours have enriched.

  Abridged Procedure for Partly Considered Bills.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the First Lord of the Treasury
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  whether in considering the proposed new Rules of Procedure he will suggest, within the terms of reference, that Bills which have passed a Second Reading in one session shall be taken up at that stage for Third Reading next session, provided that the same Government is in office.
  (Answered by Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman.) This is one of the important Questions which will doubtless come before, and be considered by, the Select Committee.

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  The Naval Manœuvres.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty how many vessels of the mercantile marine are likely to be detained in connection with the proposed Naval manœuvres next summer, in which the co-operation of British shipowners has been invited, and for how long; what will be the rate of compensation for detention and the total amount payable; whether compensation will be paid for indirect loss to traders generally arising from the dislocation of business caused by the detention of so many tramp steamers; and has any estimate been formed of the aggregate direct and indirect loss the trade of the country will incur during the course of the experiment.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. EDMUND ROBERTSON,): The number of vessels likely to be detained cannot at present be predicted, as it depends entirely on the number of shipowners who are willing to co-operate in the scheme. The Admiralty aim at securing the co-operation of at least 200 vessels. It is anticipated that no vessel will be delayed for more than sixty hours, the average delay being about forty-eight hours. Compensation will be paid for all losses, direct or indirect, arising out of the agreement, with the exception that no claim for loss of charter owing to delayed arrival will be considered. It is not possible to form any accurate estimate of the aggregate loss to the trade of the country, but all claims upon the Admiralty will be covered by insurance.

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  The papers dealing with the form of agreement between the Admiralty and the shipowners, and the Admiralty and the insurers, are now before the legal advisers of the Admiralty.

  Naval and Marine Officers.
  MR. COURTHOPE: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what system of entry and training for officers of the Navy and Marines is to be employed.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: The hon. Member will find full information on the subject in the Memorandum on entry and training (Cd. 1385), issued in December, 1902, and in the recent Statement of Admiralty Policy (Cd. 2791).

  The Repatriation of Chinese Coolies.
  MR. BROTHERTON: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if he will lay upon the Table the despatch instructing the Earl of Selborne with regard to the repatriation of Chinese coolies, and state also on what date was this despatch transmitted.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. CHURCHILL,): Correspondence on this subject has been and is being conducted by telegraph, and the question has not yet reached the stage in which a final despatch can be written.

  Volunteer Forces in the Transvaal.
  MR. STANLEY WILSON: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if the Transvaal and Orange River Colony will be allowed to raise regiments of Yeomanry, Volunteers, and Militia, as is the case in other self-governing Colonies.
  MR. CHURCHILL: It is not proposed in principle to exclude the Transvaal and the Orange River Colony from the fullest powers and rights enjoyed by self-governing colonies possessing responsible government in other parts of the British Empire; but in countries so recently emerged from war all questions concerning armed forces must in the interests of the peace and order of His Majesty's dominions be subject to special treatment for the present.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: Is it proposed to prevent the now Constitutional Government of these colonies exercising the privileges of raising troops like other colonies?
  MR. CHURCHILL: I think that Question may be more properly answered in connection with another Question on the Paper.
  MR. STANLEY WILSON: You have replied on the question of principle. May I ask what you intend to do in practice?
  MR. CHURCHILL: If he will read the Answer I have given the hon. Member will see.

  Colonel Davies and the Prime Minister.
  MR. BRYN ROBERTS: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been drawn to a speech delivered by Colonel Davies, of the Imperial Light Horse, at Johannesburg, on the 27th of January last, in the presence of Lord Selborne, in which he referred to the First Lord of the Treasury and his supporters as "that just and honourable right honourable Gentleman, they could put the name themselves, but it began with C. B., and his satellites, and attributed to them cowardice, scurrility, and falsehood"; whether the High Commissioner made any and what protest against such an attack upon the Prime Minister of this country; and, if not, whether His Majesty's Government will take any action in the matter.
  MR. CHURCHILL: The Secretary of State has noticed the report of the speech to which the hon. Member refers. It is very natural that persons of excitable character who apprehend that their monetary interests may be prejudicially affected by the policy of His Majesty's Government in regard to Chinese labour should express themselves strongly, particularly after dinner. The Secretary of State does not propose to attach undue importance to such criticism, though it is to be regretted that Lord Selborne should have been subjected to the annoyance of hearing it offered in his presence.
  MR. BRYN ROBERTS: Did the High Commissioner make any protest and, if so, what?
  MR. CHURCHILL: I am not able to say whether the protests of the High Commissioner took the form of verbal interruption of the proceedings or not.
  MR. BRYN ROBERTS: Was any protest made at all, and has the hon. Gentleman any authority for suggesting that the speech did not meet with the approval of the High Commissioner? Has he had any communication with the High Commissioner?
  MR. CHURCHILL: I, of course, assume that the High Commissioner would regard with disapproval any reflections on the First Lord of the Treasury.
  MR. BRYN ROBERTS: But has the hon. Gentleman made any communication with the High Commissioner? We regard this as an insult to our Leader.
  MR. CHURCHILL: I think it would be proper to attribute to the High Commissioner the best motives in such a matter.
  MR. BRYN ROBERTS: I shall draw attention to this matter on the Estimates.

  Orange River Colony Constitution.
  MR. BROTHERTON: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies when it is anticipated that the constitution of the Orange River Colony will come into force.
  MR. CHURCHILL: It is not possible to fix an approximate date at present; but His Majesty's Government would desire that the grant of responsible institutions to both the Transvaal and the Orange River Colony should be so far as possible simultaneous.

  British Indian Subjects in the Transvaal.
  COLONEL LEGGE (St. Georgo's,): I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India if the demands of British Indian subjects in South Africa are to be made the subject of further representation to the self-governing Colonies involved.
  MR. CHURCHILL (for Mr. MORLEY): His Majesty's Government will keep constantly in view the interests of British Indians in the self-governing colonies of South Africa, and will neglect no opportunity of endeavouring to secure them a satisfactory status which the course of events may suggest. No further representations arc, however, at present in contemplation.
  MR. COURTHOPE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India what representations have been made with regard to the future of British Indian subjects in the Transvaal and Orange River Colonies.
  MR. CHURCHILL (for Mr. MORLEY): No fresh representations have been made recently. The policy of the late Government was set forth in Mr. Lyttelton's despatch of 20th July, 1904, printed in Cd. 2239. His Majesty's Government are considering the subject in view of the early grant of responsible government in the two Colonies.

  Indian Government and the Transvaal Labour Ordinance.
  MR. HILLS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether the Government, of India was ever expressly asked to allow its subjects to work in the Transvaal gold mines under the conditions of the Asiatic Labour Ordinance of 1904, and, if so, what answer it gave; and whether the Government of India expressed its willingness to allow Indian coolies to come to the Transvaal and Natal to work exclusively at railway-making under indenture, subject to compulsory repatriation at the end of the indenture.
  MR. CHURCHILL (for Mr. MORLEY): The Government of India was never asked to allow its subjects to work in the Transvaal gold mines under the conditions of the Asiatic Labour Ordinance of 1904. The Government of India in January, 1904, was ready to allow labourers to be recruited in India for work on railways in the Transvaal under indentures for two years, to terminate in India, thus securing compulsory repatriation.

  Factory Inspection and Religious Institutions.
  MR. CHIOZZA MONEY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State

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  for the Home Department whether it is the practice of His Majesty's Inspectors of Factories and Workshops to inspect regularly the manufacturing and other industrial establishments of religious and philanthropic institutions; and, if not, whether he will give instructions for such inspection to be made.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. GLADSTONE,): I am advised that the Factory Act does not apply to industries carried on in religious and philanthropic institutions where the relationship of employer and employed does not ordinarily exist, and which are not worked for purposes of private gain. Where factories or workshops in the ordinary sense are carried on in connection with such institutions they are inspected; and in some cases not coming under the Acts where the institutions have been willing to accept inspection.
  MR. SLOAN: Is it intended to introduce legislation this session?
  MR. GLADSTONE: I have already said I cannot promise legislation this session.

  Women Factory Inspectors.
  MR. KING: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he contemplates increasing the number of women factory inspectors.
  MR. GLADSTONE: The Answer to this Question is in the affirmative.
  MR. H. J. TENNANT: How many inspectors will be added?
  MR. GLADSTONE: I am not prepared to state at present.
  MR. SLOAN: Will there be one for Ireland?
  MR. GLADSTONE: The whole matter is under consideration at present.

  Metropolitan Police.
  MR. REMNANT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make provision in his Estimates for this year
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  for providing the members of the Metropolitan Police Force with one day's rest in seven.
  MR. GLADSTONE: No, Sir; I am sorry that I cannot do so. As stated yesterday in reply to a Question by the hon. Member for South West Ham, the cost of the necessary augmentation to the Force would be so great that it could not be met without exceeding the limit of 9d. in the £ fixed by the Police Rate Act, 1868, to the Metropolitan Police rate.

  Police and Public—Case of Mr. Harold Price.
  MR. RADFORD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the case of Mr. Harold Nisbet Price, chartered accountant, who was arrested on Sunday, the 11th February instant, in Canonbury Place, Islington, on a charge of extinguishing a street lamp in Canonbury Square, preferred by P.C. Moore, and P.C. Turner; whether he is aware that Mr. Price was searched and placed in a cell, and remained there until bail could be obtained and his release effected, that Mr. Price was discharged the next morning by Mr. Bros, the stipendary magistrate, who said that the case really involved a question of perjury; and whether he will cause an inquiry to be instituted into the conduct of the police in the matter.
  MR. GLADSTONE: Mr. Harold Nisbet Price was arrested by the police on the 11th of February on the charge of having extinguished a street lamp, and was brought to the station where he was detained in a cell until bail was given. He was not searched but was invited to deliver up any matches or knife he had in his possession, and he did so. As regards the question of perjury, I find from the report of the proceedings that Mr. Bros, the magistrate, asked the solicitor for the defendant whether he imputed perjury, and that the solicitor said he did not, but he considered that the police had made a mistake. Careful inquiry has been made by the Commissioner into the facts, and he reports to me that he finds no reason for blaming the police officers concerned, except that he thinks that the officer in charge of the station might, in the exercise of his

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  discretion, have released Mr. Price on his own recognisance instead of requiring bail.

  Match Box Industry.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether in Order 81, extending the homework sections, now lying on the Table for forty days, the term paper boxes excludes match boxes as being chiefly made of wood: and whether there is any reason against extending the Order to these or making a new Order to include them.
  MR. GLADSTONE: Match boxes made of card would be within the Order, but match-boxes chiefly made of wood would not come within the terms of the Order. Inquiries with regard to several small industries, of which match-box making is one, are now in progress, and I think it will be best to wait for their completion before amending the new Order which has only recently been made and issued to local authorities.

  Meals to School Children—Parents' Liability.
  MR. JOWETT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if his attention has been called to a recent trial in the county court, held at Bradford, where His Honour Judge Bompas gave a verdict against forty-nine parents for repayment of costs for meals supplied by the guardians of the poor, under the Child-feeding Order of the Local Government Board, in respect to which he refused to hear evidence as to the means of the parents; and will he say if he proposes to take any, and, if any, what action in the matter.
  MR. GLADSTONE: I have communicated with the Judge about this case, and I will inform the hon. Member when a reply is received; but I have no authority to take any other action in the matter.

  Medical and Dental Acts.
  LORD R. CECIL: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the Government intends to introduce any Bill to amend the Medical and Dental Acts, in accordance with the proposals of the British Medical and Dental Associations.
  MR. GLADSTONE: My right hon. friend has asked me to answer this
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  Question. I fear that I cannot make any statement as to legislation by the Government on this subject. I understand that the British Medical Association have a Bill in draft, and they will, perhaps, entrust it to a private Member.

  Wales and the Proposed Canal Commission.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade, if, in view of the importance of an improved waterway system for the distribution in the Midlands of goods imported into South Wales ports, and the attention that has been given to the subject by the Cardiff Chamber of Commerce, he will consider the advisability of recommending the appointment of a South Wales representative on the proposed Canal Commission.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. LLOYD - GEORGE,): The list of proposed members for this Commission has now been made up. I believe my hon. friend will find that all interests concerned are fairly represented.

  Emigration Returns.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if in future returns he will cause the number of Welsh emigrants and immigrants from and to the United Kingdom to be stated separately, as is now done in the case of those of Scotch and Irish nationality.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: The particulars with respect to nationality of emigrants and immigrants which the Board of Trade are empowered to obtain are defined in the Merchant Shipping Act of 1894. My legal advisers are of opinion that no distinction could be made between English and Welsh passengers without frosh legislation. I will see that a clause to remedy this defect is inserted in the Merchant Shipping Amendment Act to be introduced shortly by the Government.

  Public Works—House Accommodation for Workmen.
  MR. JOHN WARD: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he will consider the

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  advisability of framing a Standing Order making it compulsory upon the promoters of Bills for public works (such as canals, docks, railways, &c.) to make provision for suitable and sanitary house accommodation for the workmen and their families who may be engaged upon the construction of such works.
  MR. LLOYD GEORGE: I am afraid that my department have no power to alter the Standing Orders referred to, and would suggest that the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent puts his Question to the hon. Member for Oldham, the Chairman of Committees, who alone can deal with it.

  Weight of Post Parcels.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether, considering that for the smallest excess over 11 lbs. in weight the Post Office officials are entitled to refuse to take in a parcel, he will recommend an increase in the maximum weight of parcels from eleven to fourteen pounds, at the same rate as at present in force.
  THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. SYDNEY BUXTON,): The question of increasing the maximum weight allowed for a parcel has been considered on more than one occasion, but there are many difficulties in the way, and I regret that I cannot comply with the hon. Member's wishes in the matter.

  Agricultural Rates Act, 1896.
  LORD HELMSLEY: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether, inasmuch as the annual grant received by various unions is now insufficient to cover the relief intended to be granted to agricultural land under the Agricultural Rates Act, 1896, he will take steps to again ascertain and certify the amount which should at the present time be paid to the Local Taxation Account for distribution annually amongst each spending authority.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. JOHN BURNS,): Section 4 of the Agricultural Rates Act, 1896, requires that the annual grant paid under that Act to the Local Taxation Account and the share of the grant paid annually to
  1132
  each spending authority, shall be based on the amount of the rates raised during the year 1895–6, and the Act gives the Local Government Board no authority to certify as the amount of the grant a sum based on the figures of any later year.

  Bradford School Children's Meals.
  MR. JOWETT: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that the Bradford Board of Guardians are making a charge of 3d. each for school meals supplied by them under the Board's Child-feeding Order, and that they are enforcing this charge against parents whose incomes is insufficient to provide ½d. meals for the children who are not in receipt of school meals; whether he is also aware that one parent threatened with a summons for payment of the 3d. each for meals has since buried one of his children that had died by reason of insufficient feeding through poverty; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter.
  MR. JOHN BURNS: I have not received any representations as regards this matter, but I will communicate with the guardians with respect to it.

  English Hop Crop Returns.
  MR. COURTHORPE: I beg to ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture whether steps will be taken to obtain actual instead of estimated Returns of the English hop crop.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE (Sir EDWARD STRACHEY,): The suggestion of the hon. Member is one which has often been considered, but the difficulties in the way of obtaining accurate Returns of the actual produce of crops from every individual grower are obviously considerable, and legislation would be required in order to make the delivery of such returns compulsory. We shall, however, be glad to look further into the matter in detail, and if the hon. Member would like to have an opportunity of conferring personally with the officers of the Board on the subject, I shall be very happy to make arrangements accordingly. We are naturally anxious that the Returns should be

  1133
  compiled with the greatest possible accuracy.

  Railway Companies and the Highland Society's Show.
  LORD DALMENY: I beg to ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether he is aware that, while the Caledonian Railway Company is offering cheap railway facilities in connection with the Highland Society's show, to be held in Peeblesshire this year, the North British Railway Company decline to grant similar facilities; and, if so, whether the Board of Agriculture will make representations to the North British Railway Company in order that the success of the show may not be imperilled.
  SIR EDWARD STRACHEY: I am aware that certain difficulties have arisen in connection with the matter to which my noble friend refers, but we have not as yet received any representations from the Highland and Agricultural Society respecting it. I feel sure that if the directors of the Society should consider that we can be of any service to them in this or any other direction they will not hesitate to approach us on the subject.

  Government Education Policy.
  MR. FINCH: I beg to ask the President of the Hoard of Education if it is proposed to repeal the Education Authorities Default Act before amending the Education Acts of 1902 and 1903.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Mr. BIRRELL,): I am not yet in a position to make any statement upon the education policy of the Government.

  Education Returns.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether the Return of the schools recognised on the 1st day of January, 1906, as non-provided public elementary schools ordered by the House of Commons, will contain all the information asked for in the Return for which a notice of Motion stands on to-day's Paper; and whether he will state when
  1134
  the Return, already ordered, may be expected.
  The notice of Motion was as follows:—
  Elementary Education (England and Wales) (Non-provided Schools) (No. 2)—Return of Non-provided Elementary Schools (1) which are the property of private individuals with managers appointed under the provisions of the Education Act of 1902; (2) which are held under trusts requiring such schools to be in union with, and to be conducted upon, the religious principles of any religious denomination; (3) which are held under trusts not requiring any particular form of religious instruction, but which have been conducted by members of a particular religious denomination; and (4) which are hold under trusts not requiring any particular form of religious instruction, and which have not been conducted by members of a particular religious denomination.
  MR. BIRRELL: I think that the Return which the Board of Education are now preparing, will comprise all the information asked for in the Return proposed by the right hon. Gentleman, so far as it could accurately be given. I should perhaps add that as regards his first category, we shall state the schools which are claimed as private property, without at the present stage undertaking to verify such claims; and as regards his third and fourth categories, we shall have as full regard as possible, in framing the Return, to the usage which has prevailed in such schools, without seeking to verify the actual conduct of the school by a given denomination. I am unable to state definitely by what date the Return will be completed. This will depend in large measure upon the promptitude with which the Trust Deeds and the other replies to the Board's questions, now being sent out to every school, are sent in. But every stop will be taken to complete and publish the Return as expeditiously as possible.

  Land Rent Disparities.
  MR. GINNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will explain the disparity between rents fixed by different sub-commission courts, and

  1135
  especially between rents fixed before and since 1903; why the judicial rents fixed now do not bear the same relation to current prices of produce and of labour that rents fixed sixteen years ago bore to the prices of that time; why some sub-commissioners do, while others do not, fix rents on the tenant's improvements and occupation interest; and if he will take any steps to bring about approximate uniformity of view and of decision on a given set of facts.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. BRYCE,): The Land Commission inform me that they are not aware of any disparity between the rents fixed by different sub-commission Courts, nor between rents fixed before and since 1903, nor that the rents fixed now do not bear the same relation to current prices of produce and labour that rents fixed sixteen years ago did to the prices of that time. They further state that it is not the case, as alleged, that sub-commissioners fix rents upon the tenant's improvements. It was judicially decided some years ago that, in fixing a fair rent upon a holding, the holding is not to be valued as if in the landlord's hands available for letting to an incoming tenant, and that, on the other hand, no deduction is to be made by reason of the tenant's occupation interest, beyond his interest in the improvements on the holding. The Land Commission believe that the assistant commissioners loyally observe this decision. The Land Commission also believe that under the present system of fixing fair rents, and especially considering the right of appeal which exists, approximate uniformity of view and decision has been obtained.

  Irish Judicial Bents.
  MR. GINNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware of the opinion prevalent in Ireland that the judicial rents fixed since the enactment of the Land Act of 1903 have been fixed regardless of the tenants' occupation interest, regardless of depreciation in quality and price of produce, and regardless of the increased cost of labour, and that this has been done for the purpose of discouraging recourse to the courts and forcing embarrassed tenants to purchase at
  1136
  exorbitant prices; whether he will institute an inquiry into the grounds for this opinion, and as part of such inquiry have the Harlech property in Westmeath, on which rents have recently been fixed, again inspected by four practical farmers, impartially chosen; and whether he will find a remedy, legislative or administrative, for any injustice disclosed by the inquiry.
  MR. BRYCE: I am informed by the Land Commission that they are aware of no such opinion as is mentioned in the Question, beyond the opinions perhaps natural and unavoidable, prevalent among litigants who have been disappointed at the results of the proceedings they have taken. Such dissatisfaction may exist both among tenants and landlords. The Land Commission add that it is not the case as stated, that since the Act of 1903, judicial rents have been fixed regardless of the present quality and price of produce, and of the cost of labour. The Lay Assistant Commissioners and Assessors have knowledge and experience of all such matters, and the Courts which fix judicial rents carefully consider the evidence upon these points which is frequently produced. It has been judicially decided that no deduction is to be made on account of the tenant's occupation interest beyond his interest in the improvements in his holding. In the case of the Harlech Estate I am informed that out of seventeen cases in which judicial rents have been fixed during the past two years, an appeal was taken in one case only, and in that case the decision of the Sub-Commission was confirmed. Parliament has placed the determination of rents in the hands of the Land Commission, and I am not aware that, even if I have power to direct the enquiry suggested, grounds justifying such a stop have been shown to exist.
  MR. KILBRIDEasked for a return showing the percentages of reduction before and after 1903.
  MR. BRYCErequired notice of the Question.

  Irish Fisheries—Close Season.
  MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, whether he can state if the Inspectors of Irish Fisheries

  1137
  have power to hold inquiries with a view to changing the close seasons; and, if not, what is the cause of their inability.
  MR. BRYCE: The powers for holding such inquiries are now vested in the Department of Agriculture. The 33rd Section of the Act 5–6 Vic. cap. 106 enacts that "the expenses of the application and all proceedings consequent thereon shall be defrayed by the person or persons who shall have signed such application." For over forty years inquiries relative to the change of close season were held without enforcing this proviso. In the year 1895, however, objection to this practice was raised in Parliament; and, as there is no way of estimating or assessing the expenses, the holding of such inquiries has since been suspended pending an alteration in the law.
  MR. BOLAND: Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire further.
  MR. BRYCE: It is a question of finding time to alter the law.

  Lord Dunraven's Limerick Estates.
  MR. LUNDON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, can he say whether Lord Dunraven has sold his estates around Adare and Groom, county Limerick, to the tenants on it; and, if so whether the sale has been carried out directly between the landlord and the tenants, or through the Estates Commissioners; and what were the terms as to the number of years' purchase on the various classes of tenancy, whether on first term or second term rents.
  MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners are negotiating with Lord Dunraven for the purchase of his estates, comprising about 11,694 acres, in the district referred to; but, until those negotiations have concluded, it is obviously undesirable to state the proposed terms of purchase.

  Evicted Tenants of the Dunraven Estates.
  MR. LUNDON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, whether he is aware that Lord Dunraven had, and still has, some evicted tenants on his property south and west of Adare, County Limerick;
  1138
  that John Ryan, of Farringstown, has been evicted for many years by Lord Dunraven from his farm in Bay bush, and has not yet been reinstated; and that the farm of John Ryan at Baybush has been taken up by a tenant convenient; and can he say whether there is any immediate prospect of John Ryan getting back to his farm through the Estates. Commissioners or otherwise.
  MR. BRYCE: The cases of John Ryan, and of several other evicted tenants on Lord Dunraven's estate, are under the consideration of the Estates Commissioners, who are negotiating for the purchase of the estate.

  Second Term Rents in Queen's County.
  MR. DELANY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Sub-Commissioners Tuckey and Baggot, on the application of Mrs. Morrin, Brittas, Queen's County, to fix a second-term rent, recently heard before them at Mary borough, raised the first-term rent of £20 to £22 6s., the landlord valuer's estimate of the fair rent being £20, and that of the valuer for the tenant £16 10s.; and whether he can state on what basis those officials acted in raising the rent £2 6s. over the estimate of the landlord's valuer.
  MR. BRYCE: It is the fact that a Sub-Commission Court, presided over by Mr. Tuckey, Legal Assistant-Commissioner, raised the fair rout in this case from £20, the amount of the first term rent, to £22 6s. I am informed by the Land Commission that the case was heard and decided in the ordinary way, each party being legally represented and producing evidence at the hearing. The decisions of Sub-Commissions are judicial decisions subject to appeal, and in this case an appeal was taken with the result that the rent for the second term was fixed at £20, the amount of the first term rout, instead of £22 6s., the amount fixed by the Sub-Commission.
  MR. DELANY: Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the last paragraph of the Question?
  MR. BRYCE: I can say nothing as to the motives of the Commissioners.

  Sligo Council Printing Contract.
  MR. LIDDELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the fact that the county council of Sligo gave a contract for printing to Mr. P. A. McHugh on the ground that he had suffered for the Nationalist cause, although his tender was £429 above that of Mr. Kilgallon; that when Mr. Kilgallon, on its being proposed that his tender should be accepted, advanced to pay the necessary fee, one of the councillors seized him by the shoulders, snatched the money out of his hands, and threatened to throw him downstairs; and whether the Local Government Board will take steps to protect the ratepayers of Sligo from the imposition of unnecessary expenditure for political reasons.
  MR. BRYCE: On August 26th, 1905, the Sligo County Council considered tenders for their printing contract for three years. Nine persons tendered, amongst them being Mrs. Kato McHugh at £399 a year, and Mr. T. Kialgallon at £250 a year. Before considering the tenders, the Council passed a resolution that the printing should be done in County Sligo; and the Council thereupon accepted Mrs. McHugh's tender on the ground that the only lower tender was that of Mr. Kilgallon, whoso plant was insufficient to carry out the contract satisfactorily. The Local Government Board have no information as to the alleged ill-treatment of Mr. Kilgallon at the meeting. The question of the legality of the payment will be considered by the auditor of the Local Government Board in due course.
  MR. LONSDALE: Is it the fact that the contract was given to Mr. McHugh because he had suffered in the Nationalist cause.
  MR. BRYCE: I really have no information and I am surprised the hon. Member should think I could tell him what passes in committee of the Sligo County Council.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: Is it not the fact that Mr. Kilgallon is a bankrupt and therefore ineligible?
  MR. CHARLES CRAIG: Will the right hon. Gentleman obtain an answer to the question as to the reason for giving Mr. McHugh the contract?
  MR. BRYCE: If it is wished that time should be occupied by questions of that sort I will obtain the information.

  Compensation Claim at Limerick Quarter Sessions.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the fact that at Limerick quarter sessions £10 compensation was awarded to John Bowman, of Movine, Ardpatrick, for the malicious cutting off of the tails of two milch cows on the 22nd November; and whether any attempt was made to discover and punish the perpetrators of this crime.
  MR. BRYCE: The fact is as stated in the first part of the Question, save that the amount of the compensation awarded was £7 7s. The evidence of malice given at the hearing was that Bowman was not on friendly terms with certain of his neighbours, owing to disputes about trespass; and it did not appear that the case had any agrarian significance. The police made diligent inquiries into the matter, but did not succeed in discovering the offender.

  Blake Estate, County Galway.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Congested Districts Board have had communicated to them a resolution, passed on 28th November last, by tenants of Brackloonbeg, on the Blake Estate, Benmore, county Galway, refusing to pay any rent until such times as the Board would let them know the terms of sale for their agricultural holdings; and what action was taken by the Board in consequence of such resolution.
  MR. BRYCE: The resolution referred to was received by the Congested Districts Board, who informed the tenants' solicitor that the Board were prepared to enlarge the small holdings on the estate in question as soon as the estate became legally vested in them, but that they had no power to divide and sell the lands

  1141
  purchased until the estate should be so vested in them. The Board added that if the tenants did not pay their rents forthwith, legal proceedings would be instituted against them; and, accordingly, proceedings are now being taken against the defaulters for the payment of one year's rent.

  Drogheda Compensation Claim.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that John Elliott, tenant on Lord Massereene's estate at Monasterboice, was awarded £10 compensation at Drogheda quarter sessions, on 4th January last, for the malicious burning of hay; and that the claimant declared on oath that, in common with the other planters on the estate, he was under police protection, and none of his neighbours would speak to him; and whether the police obtained any clue to the incendiary.
  MR. BRYCE: The facts are as stated in the first part of the Question. The police authorities inform me that they have no information as to whether the tenant declared that he, in common with other planters, was under police protection, and that none of his neighbours would speak to him. The fact, however, is, that for a considerable time past, the now tenants on this estate have been generally free from interference, with the result that it has been found possible to considerably reduce the police protection afforded to them. The police failed to obtain any clue to the incendiary in this case.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: For the information of the new Members, will the right hon. Gentleman give a definition of the word "planter."
  MR. BRYCE: The hon. Member had better put down a separate Question.

  Athenry Outrage.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland (1) whether it was reported to the police that on 26th December, 1905, the house of Martin Fahey at Killescragh, near Athenry, was fired into and windows smashed; (2) whether Fahey holds a small farm on the Benmore estate, which has been purchased by the Congested Districts Board; (3) and whether the cause
  1142
  assigned for the incident was the fact that he was suspected of paying his rent, contrary to the wishes of other tenants; (4) and what action has been taken in the matter.
  MR. BRYCE: The facts are as stated in the first two sections of this Question. The police have done, and are doing, everything that may be possible to discover the offenders, and protection is being afforded to Fahey.

  South Tyrone Election.
  MR. T. L. CORBETT: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that since the recent election in South Tyrone, Protestants who refused to vote for the candidate supported by the Nationalist convention have complained of annoyance and intimidation, and that an attack was made upon one, Robert Dornion of Clogher, on the 9th February; and what stops are being taken to protect the lives and property of people in this district.
  MR. BRYCE: Complaints of the nature referred to have been received, not only in South Tyrone, but also in other constituencies. The annoyance complained of does not appear to have been confined to one Party, but has been indulged in on both sides during the excitement of contested elections. The particular case referred to appears to be that in which three men have been returned for trial at assizes for an assault upon Richard Durneen. The police are using every effort to preserve the peace, and I am informed that the excitement consequent on the elections is fast dying out.

  A Question of Order.
  MR. T. L. CORBETT, having postponed a Question addressed to the Chief Secretary as to the alleged intimidation to which the grand jurors at the last Galway summer assizes were subjected.
  MR. JOHN REDMONDrose to a point of order. He said that the hon. Member's Question had been on the Paper for several days in a different form from that in which it now appeared. Originally it contained a specific charge of the gravest character against a Member of the House, who was mentioned by name.

  1143
  Now that charge had been struck out of the Question. He wished to know who was responsible for allowing the Order Paper to be made a medium for circulating a gross libel on an hon. Member; and whether it was in order to refer to an hon. Member by name even in a Question.
  MR. SPEAKER: In this case, as soon as my attention was called to the imputation contained in the Question, I had the words struck out. I am asked who is responsible for circulating the Question in that form. The hon. Member who puts the Question in that form is responsible. The clerks at the Table exercise all the vigilance they can, but sometimes irregularities escape their notice. As soon as my attention is called to the fact, I take steps to have a correction made.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: I hope that a gross case of this kind will not be allowed to occur again.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILLasked whether there was any case in which a Member of the House had been named in a Question.
  MR. SPEAKER: I have seen sometimes the names of hon. Members given and sometimes their constituencies. I think for the future it would be better if hon. Members are referred to in Questions that the reference should be the same as in debates.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: Would it be in order for me to ask the Chief Secretary to answer this Question? It was a scandalous thing to put a Question of this sort on the Paper, leave it there for nearly a week, and then postpone it.
  MR. T. L. CORBETT: May I explain that I was asked to postpone the Question for a few days?
  MR. BRYCE: I do not think the information in my possession is sufficient to enable me to answer the Question completely.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: May I ask whether the ruling of the Speaker is that if any Member of the House is concerned in any proceedings which are contrary to the law no Question can be asked in the House with regard to him, although it might be asked with regard to
  1144
  other persons who have participated in those proceedings?
  MR. SPEAKER: I do not go so far as that. An imputation was east upon an hon. Member in this case, but there was no direct charge. The Question, so far as I remember, suggested that it was in consequence of something which had been said by an hon. Member that I certain other things took place. It was an implied charge, not a direct one. If there were any case of a direct charge against an hon. Member it would be desirable to direct the attention of the House specifically to it.

  Irish Rent Appeals.
  MR. DELANY: I beg to ask the Chief! Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that in the appeal case of Lucy Morrin, tenant, v. Thomas Kemmis, landlord, heard in Dublin last month, the second-term rent fixed by Sub-Commissioners Tuckey and I Baggot was reduced from £22 6s. to £20; that the sub-commissioners referred to fixed the second-term rent in this case £2 6s. over the landlord valuer's estimate of a fair rent in the court below, and that the same valuer for the landlord declared upon oath before the appeal court that the rent fixed by the Sub-Commission was in excess of value; whether he will state what locality Messrs. Tuckey and Baggot are operating in at present; when their term of employment expires; and whether it is proposed to continue their services.
  MR. BRYCE: I have already replied to the earlier part of that Question in my answer to the hon. Member's Question No 36.† I am informed that Mr. Tuckey is a permanent assistant Legal Commissioner, and that Mr. Baggot is a temporary Lay Commissioner, whose present term will shortly expire. I have no information as to where these gentlemen are at present employed. The Land Commission inform me that Messrs. Tuckey and Baggot are gentlemen in whoso impartiality and ability they have every confidence. They add that on questions of value opinions frequently differ; and the appeal court at times considers it right to raise the rents fixed by the Sub-Commission Courts.
  † See page 1137.

  Wexford Jury and Voters Lists.
  MR. FFEENCH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that at a recent meeting the Wexford County Council passed a resolution to the effect that the expenses of the annual preparation of the jurors' and voters' lists was excessive, amounting in the county to £1,100, and that the part of this work done by clerks of unions, and the emoluments connected therewith, supposed to be from £500 to £600 would eventually fall in to the secretary of the county council; and that, as this expenditure comes altogether out of the local rates, they request the Government to have the law altered so that when the work falls into the county council office the county council may be entited to fix the remuneration instead of, as at present, having it fixed by statutory fees; and whether he can promise legislation in the direction indicated in the resolution.
  MR. BRYCE: I understand that the Wexford County Council have passed a resolution to the effect stated. The expenses of the preparation of jurors' lists are regulated by rules fixed by orders in Council. The remuneration and expenses of officers engaged in the preparation of the franchise lists are paid in accordance with the scale made by the Local Government Board under the Parliamentary Registration Expense Act, 1890. It must be borne in mind that a large proportion of the fees received by secretaries of county councils is paid to their assistants. The Local Government Board have not been made aware that there is any general desire on the part of local authorities to have the existing practice altered.

  Newman Estate, Mallow, County Cork.
  MR. FLYNN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Estates Commissioners have received any recent information in respect to the Newman Estate, Dromore, Mallow, County Cork, and the tenant, Timothy C. O'Callaghan, who was excluded from the operation of the purchase scheme, though an ordinary tenant willing to purchase on the same terms as other tenants; are the Commissioners aware that this tenant has since been evicted, and he and his son imprisoned for one month in connection
  1146
  with the eviction proceedings; and, under these circumstances, and having regard to the fact that the holding is vacant, will the Commissioners take steps to provide for the purchase of the farm and the reinstatement of the evicted tenant.
  MR. BRYCE: I understand that the facts are as stated in the second paragraph of the Question. The Estates Commissioners inform me that it has only now come to their knowledge that an eviction has taken place in this case, and that they will make further inquiries into the matter.

  Tobacco Growing in Ireland.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can say whether the request of those interested in tobacco-growing in Ireland for an extension of the time during which a rebate shall be given on Irish grown tobacco can be granted.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. ASQUITH,): The concession made by the Treasury granting a rebate of one-third of the duty on tobacco grown in Ireland was for a period of five years from the 1st December 1903. I shall be glad to receive from the hon. Gentleman or those interested in the experiment any suggestions as to the necessity for further extention of time.

  Football in Phœnix Park, Dublin.
  MR. CLANCY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the fact that of the thirty-one grounds allotted for the games of football and hurling in the Phœnix Park, Dublin, only two are allotted to the members of the Gaelic Athletic Association, while the remaining grounds are given up to the use of the clubs which follow Association rules, he will say what is the reason for this attempt at boycotting Irish games by the Board of Works in Dublin; and whether the Board will be directed to make a more equitable distribution of the amusements grounds in the Phœnix Park between the Gaelic Athletic Association clubs and the other clubs mentioned.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. MCKENNA,): There are thirty-one football grounds in the Phœnix Park and one

  1147
  separate ground for hurling. Of the football grounds twenty nine are allotted for Association football and two for Gaelic football. In making this allotment regard is had to the respective number of players of the two games. From 1st September, 1905, when the football season opened, to the 14th ultimo the number of applications received from Association clubs was 1,784, an average in round numbers of sixty per ground. During the same period the number of applications from Gaelic clubs was twenty-six, an average of thirteen per ground.

  Basis Wines.
  MR. LEA: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will insert in his Revenue Bill the proposal which was dropped last year for imposing a tax on the manufacturers of the alcoholic beverages known as basis wines, in view of their competition with imported wines, due to the fact that they do not contribute to the revenue.
  MR. ASQUITH: The proposal was to impose a licence Duty with a view to bringing the manufacture of British wines under excise supervision not to put a tax on the product itself. The matter is receiving my careful consideration, and I will make a statement at a later date.
  MR. LEA: Might I point out that one of the effects of the absence of a tax on these beverages has been a loss of confidence on the part of the wine-consuming public, who for years past have had stuff manufactured in London foisted on them as the produce of the Gironde and Côte d'Or.
  MR. ASQUITH: I know that is the suggestion.

  Old Age Pensions.
  MR. CATHCART WASON: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he could inform the House of the number of persons approximately over sixty-five years who are in want of poverty who would be likely to apply for a pension of 5s. a week; and also an estimate of the saving that might be effected in poor rates were such a pension granted to the poor.
  MR. ASQUITH: This is a matter of mere speculation. It will be remembered that the proposals made by a Select Committee of this House about the aged deserving poor, which excluded on specific grounds a number of persons from the pension list, were referred to a Departmental Committee to examine from a financial point of view. After allowing for the exclusions specified in the Committee's terms of reference, they estimated the cost of the scheme at £10,300,000 in 1901, and £12,650,000 in 1911. The present cost on this basis would probably not be far short of £11,500,000.

  Coolie Labour in British Guiana.
  MR. WALROND: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if a grant from the Exchequer will be proposed to enable indentured coolies employed in British Guiana to be repatriated, if dissatisfied with their conditions.
  MR. ASQUITH (For Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN): No Sir. The considerations which have influenced His Majesty's Government in dealing with the question of repatriation in South Africa do not apply in the case of coolies in British Guiana.

  Franchise Reform.
  MR. MENZIES: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, in bringing in a Bill for the prevention of plurality in voting, he will favourably consider the introduction of a clause in that Bill providing that where three or more candidates stand for the same constituency in a Parliamentary election, and where the candidate securing most votes has obtained less than 50 per cent. of the total votes recorded, there should forthwith be a second election in which the two candidates alone should stand who have secured most votes in the first election, with a view to securing better representation of the country in this House.
  MR. ASQUITH (for Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN): The subject named by my hon. friend, although deserving consideration, is not relevant to the question of plural voting, and will therefore not be dealt with in the Bill to which he refers.

  Prevention of Chinese Immigration into the United Kingdom.
  MR. BEOADHURST: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to take steps to prevent any systematic immigration of Chinese labour into the United Kingdom on the occasion of its completion of its contracts in South Africa.
  MR. ASQUITH (for Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN): Any systematic immigration into the United Kingdom does not at present seem probable. If, however, the contingency were to arise, it would be for His Majesty's Government to consider whether any steps should be taken to check it.
  SIR H. VINCENTasked whether this matter was not provided for by the Aliens Act of last session.
  MR. ASQUITH: I do not think it is.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE—POST-PONEMENT OF THE FISCAL DEBATE.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid he wished to make a request which he was afraid would be a matter of some inconvenience to the Government; this was, however, unavoidable. The House was aware, and would share his regret at the illness of the Leader of the Opposition—[Cries of "Which one?"]—the Leader of the Opposition. He was sorry to say he was informed that there was no chance of his right hon. friend being there before Monday at the earliest, and he could not be certain that he would be present on that day. He regretted to say that his right hon. friend the Member for West Birmingham was also laid up with an attack of influenza, and it was impossible that he should be there to-morrow. He thought the debate on the Motion of the hon. Member for the Colne Valley†
  † SIR JAMES KITSON—Free Trade: That this House, recognising that in the recent General Election the people of the United Kingdom have demonstrated their unqualified fidelity to the principles and practice of free trade, deems it right to record its determination to resist any proposal, whether by way of taxation upon foreign corn or of the creation of a general tariff upon foreign goods, to create in this country a system of protection.
  1150
  would—obviously from their point of view—be very incomplete without the presence of those two right hon. Gentlemen, and he gathered, from observations made at an earlier stage this session by the Prime Minister, that their absence would be equally regretted by the Front Bench opposite. Under these circumstances he asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to be good enough to postpone that Motion, he would suggest, till to-morrow week, and, if he could comply with that request, whether he could say what business would be taken to-morrow.
  MR. ASQUITHsaid that he was sure the House heard with very great regret the statement of the right hon. Gentleman. They all felt, as he said, that from his point of view, and he would say from their point of view on that Bench, the debate on the fiscal question would be very incomplete in the absence of both right hon. Gentlemen representing the Opposition—in the absence not only of the Prince of Denmark, but of the ghost. He would not presume to allocate those parts as between the two right hon. Gentlemen themselves. he did not, therefore, feel under the circumstances in a position to deny the request which the right hon. Gentleman had made. At the same time, as the House would appreciate, it placed the Government in a position of very considerable embarrassment, because the whole of their arrangements for business had been made on the footing that to-morrow would be devoted to this question, a question which they thought right should be submitted to the House at the earliest possible moment. In assenting to the right hon. Gentleman's request he must ask the House to choose between one or two alternative courses for to-morrow, both of which would be attended with a certain amount of inconvenience. They could to-morrow take the Motion that the Speaker leave the Chair on going into Committee of Supply on Navy Estimates. The House would understand that those Estimates could not be circulated till to-night, and would not be in the hands of hon. Gentlemen till to-morrow morning. Or they could take the necessary Vote on account for the Civil Services, but that again could not be circulated till to-morrow morning. It would be in the Vote Office at the meeting of the House and

  1151
  would be then accessible to Members. The Government was completely in the hands of the House in the matter, and would be prepared to adopt whichever of those courses was held to be the least inconvenient. He assured hon. Gentlemen opposite that the Government were divested of responsibility in the matter, which was entirely due to the most regrettable necessity which had upset previous arrangements.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid that perhaps the arrangement as to which business should be taken to-morrow could be most advantageously settled by communications among all those interested through the usual channels. He was obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for the way in which he had met his request.
  MR. CROOKSsubmitted that to-morrow would be an opportune moment to lay the whole question of old-age pensions before the House, as to take the business suggested would be embarrassing.
  MR. ASQUITH: It is not on the Paper.

NEW BILLS.
  PHARMACY BILL.
  To provide for the further regulation of the sale of poisons and the compounding of medical prescriptions, and to amend the Pharmacy Acts 1852 and 1868, presented by Mr. Winfrey; supported by Mr. Idris, Sir Henry Kimber, Mr. Henniker Heaton, Mr. James Gibb, Mr. Remnant, Mr. Ellis Griffith, Mr. Crooks, Mr. Cowan, Mr. Gulland and Mr. O'Malley; to be read a second time upon Wednesday, 14th March, and to be printed. [Bill 59.]

  INTOXICATING LIQUORS LOCAL VETO (IRELAND) BILL.
  "To enable the local government electors of any locality to veto the issue of licences for the Sale of Intoxicating Liquors in Ireland," presented by Mr. William Redmond; supported by Mr.
  1152
  T. W. Russell, Mr. Jordan, Mr. Glendinning, Mr. Boland, Mr. Joyce, Mr. Smyth, Mr. O'Shaughnessy, and Sir Thomas Esmonde; to be read a second time upon Friday 6th April, and to be printed. [Bill 60.]

  LICENSED PREMISES (ELECTION DAYS) CLOSING BILL.
  "To secure the closing of Licensed Premises on certain Election Days," presented by Mr. Charles Roberts; supported by Mr. Billson, Colonel Herbert, Mr. T. W. Russell, Major Renton. Mr. Shackleton, Mr. Trevelyan, Mr. Whitwell Wilson, and Sir James Woodhouse; to be read a second time upon Friday, 18th, May, and to be printed. [Bill 61.]
  LABOUR PENSIONS BILL.
  "To provide pensions for the aged and deserving poor without disfranchisement," presented by Mr. Archibald Grove; to be read a second time upon Wednesday 14th March, and to be printed. [Bill 62.]
  SALE OF WHISKY BILL.
  "To amend the law relating to the Sale of Whisky, and to provide for the marking of casks and other vessels containing Whisky," presented by Mr. Archibald Williamson; supported by Mr. Sutherland, Mr. Cathcart Wason, Mr. Billson. and Mr. Harmood-Banner; to be read a second time upon Wednesday 21st March, and to be printed. [Bill 63.]
  SUMMARY JURISDICTION (CHILDREN) BILL).
  "To amend the law relating to the Trial and Detention of Children," presented by Mr. John Tennant supported by Lord Edmund Talbot, Sir Howard Vincent, Sir George Kekewich, Mr. Crooks, Mr. Allen, Mr. Yoxall, Mr. Spicer and Mr. J. R. Macdonald, to be read a second time upon Wednesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 64.]

  REFORM OF PROCEDURE—APPOINTMENT OF A SELECT COMMITTEE.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. ASQUITH,)rose to move the Resolution on the Paper in the name of the Prime Minister, i.e.:—"That

  1153
  a Select Committee, be appointed to consider the question of procedure in the House of Commons, and to report as to the Amendment of the existing rules and upon any new rules which they may consider desirable for the efficient despatch of business." He said: The terms of this Motion are identical with those which were considered and carried by the House twenty years ago at the instance of Sir M. Hicks-Beach. That, I think, was the last occasion on which a representative and authoritative Committee of the House sat to discuss the general question of their procedure. One of the complaints, I remember, which we made when in opposition some two or three years ago, when the right hon. Gentleman who now leads the Opposition proposed from this Bench the largo changes in the rules which now govern our procedure, was that the matter had not first been submitted according to precedent, and I think also according to convenience, to a Committee representing all sections and quarters of the House. Although I do not deny that in some respects those rules have introduced Amendments into our procedure, yet I think that on the whole our experience of them has justified the attitude which we then took up. I feel I am not going beyond what I am sure will be agreed to by the majority of the old Members of the House, and almost all the new Members when I say that, as regards such important matters as the hours of sitting and the time of adjournment the new procedure has been and is productive of the maximum of inconvenience. There are, of course, many other matters, some of them changes introduced by those rules, some of them parts of the old practice of the House, which, in view of the altered conditions in which we are now met, seem to deserve reconsideration and redecision. I do not want to go into any detail, but I wish clearly to indicate to the House what is the course proposed by the Government. We propose to appoint a strong and representative Select Committee, and when that Committee opens its investigations we suggest that they shall not take the form of a fishing or roving inquiry over the whole grounds of procedure, but that the Government shall submit to the Committee, as they will be prepared to do, a definite scheme of their own for consideration, examination, and report. The
  1154
  result of that, I hope, will be that there will be very little loss of time, and that the Committee will be able to pronounce its opinion, aye or no, on definite and particular proposals in regard to such urgent matters—I only mention one or two by way of illustration—as the hours of sitting and adjournment, the larger extension and more convenient application of devolution of certain classes of business to Committee, and the setting up of some machinery satisfactory to the House to avoid the necessity of harsh and summary applications of the rule of closure—what used to be called the guillotine—some satisfactory machinery which will, in the general confidence of the House, provide for the allocation of time as between different classes of measures, and different parts of the same measure. These are only some of the questions which the Government regard as of the most urgent and paramount importance. It is by no means an exhaustive enumeration of the matters to go before the Committee. If the House agrees to my Motion, as I hope it will, I trust that the Committee will be able to get to work almost at once, and that, by sitting three days a week, it may come to an end of its labours before Easter. On points on which there is exceptional urgency, I think they might exercise the power which I believe is inherent in every Committee, of presenting Reports from time to time dealing with the particular matter, and of not waiting until they can make one final Report before making any suggestions. I do not think I need say anything more in support of this Motion, because I do not expect it will be opposed in any part of the House, and I think the House will agree that the sooner the Committee gets to work, and the more quickly it reports, the more prospect we in this House will have of doing our business in a business-like fashion, worthy of the traditions of this great Assembly and of dealing with the ever-increasing mass of work that devolves upon it
  Motion made and Question proposed, "That a Select Committee be appointed to consider the Question of Procedure in the House of Commons, and to report as to the amendment of the existing Rules and upon any new Rules which they may consider desirable for the efficient dispatch

  1155
  of business."—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.).
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: So far from desiring to offer any opposition to the Motion for a Committee of Inquiry into our procedure I heartily welcome it. Successive Governments have from time to time attempted so to modify the procedure of this House as to conduce to the most efficient conduct of its business. No one who has any experience of the House will hold that we have reached perfection. I am quite sure that there is room for a great deal of further improvement, and I am glad the matter is to be referred to a Committee for investigation and report. Even amongst those with whom I commonly act there is a good deal of difference of opinion in regard to some of the latest reforms in procedure. Some of my friends do not hold the same views as I do as to what times of sittings and what adjournments are most conductive either to the despatch of business or to the convenience of individual Members. I hope in any changes that are made there will be an endeavour to provide not merely for the efficient discharge of its duties by the House, but—what I believe is essential for that discharge—for the convenience of hon. Members who, while giving, and are ready to give, a large measure of their services to their country and to the House, have other occupations which take up part of their time, and who cannot, like myself, be at the service of the House at any time and for any length of time. As regards the methods of procedure which the right hon. Gentleman has foreshadowed, I assume that the fact that the Government have a scheme cut and dried which they are going to submit to this Committee will not be used in any way to prevent the Committee considering any other suggestions which may be laid before them. We are at one in feeling that the procedure of the House should be the result of a consensus of opinion in the House, and not in any sense the mere expression of the views of a section. I venture to hope that as the Chancellor of the Exchequer has this scheme cut and dried he will communicate to the House the main principles and outline of what it is the Government contemplate. If they had said they
  1156
  merely proposed to appoint a Committee to inquire, I should have felt that the case for inquiry was obvious. But that is not the line they took. They have a schemer of their own, as the Chancellor said, cut and dried. [Mr. ASQUITH: "No, no.") I think those were the words used. But, at any rate, they have a scheme ready to submit to the Committee. It really would be an advantage to everyone if the main outlines of that scheme were communicated to the House to-day, and I cannot conceive of any reason why it should be withheld from us. It is a matter which concerns every one; it is a matter on which the Committee will be desirous of finding a solution that will take due account of every opinion in the House, and the Committee would be much more likely to arrive at a satisfactory result if they had to guide them in their deliberations the results of a preliminary discussion in the House itself. I think it would serve the interests of the House as a whole if the right hon. Gentleman would communicate to the House in general terms the steps which the Government have decided to recommend to the consideration of the Committee. The changes which the right hon. Gentleman has adumbrated are not small changes. They are not small questions of detail. The proposals which the right hon. Gentleman has adumbrated in the vaguest possible terms may lead to changes, not of procedure only, but changes of a constitutional character in the organisation of that House, in the conduct of its business, and in the opportunities which the House or the minority has to make its views heard upon oven the most important questions. This Government ought to be not only willing, but anxious, to take the House of Commons into their confidence at the earliest possible moment. With a desire to assist the right hon. Gentleman to make our procedure business-like and effective, I now appeal to him to take the House into his confidence, and not show a suspicion and a jealousy of it that is undeserved, and which can only tend to make a realisation of our common wishes less likely than it would otherwise have been.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSfailed to see what evidence of jealousy or suspicion of the House could be found in the statement of the

  1157
  Chancellor of the Exchequer. The right hon. Gentleman had told them that the Government proposed to lay before the Select Committee as early as possible the plans on which it had decided, and it would be a mere waste of time for the Chancellor to state even the main proposals of the scheme to be submitted to the Committee. It would only lead to a lengthened discussion and could have no good effect. When the Committee reported upon the proposals, it would be entirely within the province of the House to approve or disapprove of their recommendations. The House, instead of being a real working, business-like assembly, was nothing of the kind. Its functions should be two-fold. First, it should be a deliberative assembly, able to discuss both the legislative proposals of the Government and its administrative Acts, and then it should be a legislative workshop. As a deliberative assembly it was not a great success. Many speeches were delivered which no one wanted to hear, arguments were constantly repeated, and the House certainly was not the business machine it should be. He hoped that the Committee when appointed would be representative of all classes and that its aim would be to bring the House into lines which would make it a good modern working appliance. Everybody would desire that it should cease to be a mere talking shop, and should apply itself to good general Liberal work. He was glad, therefore, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had taken this early opportunity of moving the Resolution, and if he might be allowed to say so, he approved entirely of their proposal not to give the Committee a roving commission, but to place before it definite proposals. The country would rightly feel that the Government with its huge majority should place that majority in a position to do good work. No doubt the Government proposals would be open to amendment should it be found that the wisdom of the Committee was greater than that of the Government. He hoped the House would be steadfast against the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman. A Committee ought to be appointed at once and ought to report as early as possible, either on the proposals of the Government, or upon its own schemes and then, and then only, would be the fitting time for the House to consider the question as a whole, and bring
  1158
  their wisdom to bear on the wisdom of the Committee.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he only rose to take up the words which fell from the hon. Member for Mid Glamorganshire just before he sat down. The hon. Member said that when this Committee had reported the House should have the power of forming a judgment on the scheme as a whole. That was a matter of paramount importance. Under the procedure which this House had followed for centuries, the House had enjoyed the opportunity of seeing the proposals as a whole, and of weighing one part of those proposals as against the others. He put this question to the Government. If this Committee was appointed, and if their scheme was submitted to the Committee, although the scheme had not been submitted to the House, would the House at a future stage have an opportunity of seeing the scheme as a whole which the Government brought forward on its own responsibility as a Government? The Chancellor of the Exchequer in the remarks he had made had caused him some uneasiness. The right hon. Gentleman had stated that the Committee would be appointed forthwith, and urged to be expeditious, and that it would be invited to present interim Reports. That raised the whole question of this Committee. Was it to give the House interim Reports, and, if so, was the House to be invited to come to a judgment on these interim Reports, because, if so, the House would not have that which he claimed for it—tho right of considering as a whole the scheme brought forward by the Government of the day.
  MR. JOHN REDMONDsaid it was very interesting to old Members of the House to hear the different points of view from which right hon. and hon. Gentlemen approached a question when they had changed from the Government to the Opposition side of the House. The right hon. Gentleman the late Chancellor of the Exchequer had made a touching appeal as representing a small minority of this House, saying that he thought the procedure of the House ought to be a matter of the general consensus of opinion of the House; but some Members would remember that in 1902, when the last procedure rules were carried, they were carried by closure by the

  1159
  Government in the teeth of a very large minority. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dover had raised the point that it would be consistent with the declaration of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the Committee should make interim Reports upon certain features in the scheme, and that the House should be asked to adopt those schemes and leave over the rest. He earnestly hoped that that was the intention of the Government, because if they wished to get any alteration there was no other chance of their getting soon—this session—any reform of those defects in the present procedure as to which they were all practically agreed. The speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, except for that very circumstance, was one that gave him some little anxiety, because it seemed to him that the Government were going to prepare another great scheme of reform of procedure, with the idea that they could transform the present House of Commons into a real workmanlike and efficient assembly. If that was the hope of the right hon. Gentlemen it meant that these particular changes which, if small, were important, and which, if they could be earned out at once, would add materially to the comfort and efficiency of the House, would be thrown on one side altogether. He was one of those who would welcome most heartily any effort the Government might make to alter certain features of the rules passed in 1902, and if that was their real intention he had great hopes that they might very shortly be able to recommend certain changes to be adopted—before this session came to an end. With regard to the hour at which the House met in the afternoon it was either too early or too late. He knew that the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil took the view that the House ought to meet far earlier than two o'clock. He did not quarrel with that view. If the House could make up its mind to meet and transact its business in the daytime and meet say, at eleven o'clock and stop at six or seven he would be delighted; but if it was going to continue to be a House which insisted on transacting its business at night, two o'clock was a most inconvenient hour to meet, and the hour of meeting ought to be put back to the old hour of three o'clock. Then as to the hour at which the House adjourned—that was a most inconvenient hour, and he hoped the present Govern-
  1160
  ment would take that into consideration. The whole character of the House was rapidly changing, and it would change still more. It was ceasing to be a chamber occupied entirely by the wealthier and the leisured classes, and it was becoming a chamber in which the working—he did not mean merely the Labour Members—men of the country who were engaged in earning their daily bread in the professions or in business or by labour occupied a large number of seats. It was also a House in which the proportion of poor men was increasing. They found it impossible to live in the centre of the metropolis; they had to live on the outskirts, and it was a severe tax upon such men that the House should sit to such an hour that they could not get trains and, in order to get home in comfort, were obliged to drive at great expense. He hoped, therefore, that the question of not sitting so late as twelve o'clock would be included in the scheme, and that if the Committee still considered that they should go on sitting until a late hour, they would make up their minds that the sitting must close long before twelve o'clock. With reference to the dinner-hour, no arrangement could be more absurd than the present, and he thought that nothing that had ever happened in connection with procedure had had a worse effect. Before the rule in question was passed—of course it was passed, like everything else then, by the closure—he said it was a device invented for the benefit of the drones and the dummies of the House, and that it would not be of any assistance to the working Members of the House. And that was what happened. What was their experience in the last Parliament? It was supposed the House would stop work from 7.30 to 9 o'clock. But it stopped from 7.30 to 10 or 10.30, because hon. Gentlemen who went away to dinner never came back until then, and meantime night after night they had the ridiculous spectacle of the Government with a nominal majority of over 100 putting up men to talk against time-From 9 o'clock till 10 they, in order to save themselves from defeat, had to do so; and all old Members would remember the scenes that used to take place when the then Member for Peckham threw himself into the breach and talked against time

  1161
  with his eye cautiously on the door watching for the signal that enough Members were back and that he might sit down. The dinner-hour had not benefited anyone really concerned in the work of the House, and he hoped it would be abolished. There was another matter that he would respectfully suggest, viz., that the House ought not to sit any year beyond July 1. The objection to that was that the financial business of the House had to be got through. But he could not conceive why the regulations as to the financial arrangements for the year could not be changed. It might, no doubt, entail some inconvenience temporarily on the Treasury. But he thought there could be no other argument used against it. If necessary let the House of Commons meet in the autumn. Almost every other legislative assembly in the world had an autumn session. Let them sit from the 1st October until Christmas, adjourn until February, and sit to July 1. Just as the attempt to carry on the work effectively in the small hours led to unsatisfactory results, so the attempt to get men to transact serious business with proper attention in the oppressive days of July and August failed. One word more. He had said that he hoped the Government were going to confine themselves, for the time at any rate, to that kind of effort. He trusted that they were not going to embark upon a great scheme in the hope of making the House of Commons a business-like and efficient assembly. If they embarked on this latter course they would meet with the same fate as everybody else who had attempted to deal with this question during the last seventy years. Since 1832 there had been twenty-one such Committees as was now to be appointed. There had been half-a-dozen great schemes for the reform of the business of this House with the object of enabling it to transact its responsible duties. They had all failed. The position of affairs to-day was worse than it was ten, twenty, or thirty years ago, and day by day it was becoming worse. The right hon. Gentleman said something about a scheme for the devolution of business to committees. That was a very large and difficult subject. It had been tried, and they all remembered the high hopes with which the Grand Committees were called into operation. These Grand Committees had been sitting now for years.
  1162
  The House had been sending upstairs Bills for the consideration of the Grand Committees in the hope that the operation would hasten the work of Parliament. They had had no such effect. The Grand Committees had been an absolute failure. ["No."] In his opinion, and in that of the overwhelming majority of those who had had any connection with these Committees, they had been a failure. His own experience was that repeatedly Bills, sometimes almost of a non-controversial character, had been killed in Grand Committee. The number of measures carried into law by the operation of Standing Committees was so small as completely to justify his statement that the Committees were a failure. It was not in that direction that the House could be saved from its present state of inefficiency. He was not going on this occasion to make a Home Rule speech, but he would point out that the House of Commons was endeavouring in one body, sitting for six months, to transact business which would legitimately occupy the time of at least five such assemblies. New Members, deeply impressed with the grievances affecting the mass of their fellow-countrymen, had come here to demand from this new Parliament and new Government, with its unprecedented majority, the settlement of a number of great questions—education, temperance, old age pensions, the position of trades unions, and so forth. How many of those questions did they think could be dealt with in five years? He was in sympathy with all those reforms, and so were his friends, but he uttered this word of warning to those Members who came here filled with an enthusiastic belief that they could get redress: they could not. Any one measure of really first-class importance was as much as could be carried in one session of Parliament, and if a great imperial question arose suddenly it would inevitably have the effect of putting upon one side the consideration of the great social reforms that England, Ireland and Scotland desired. The truth was they were attempting under the present system to be, at one and the same time, the local Parliament of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland, and the great Imperial Senate of the nation. They could not do it. The whole experience of the world was against them. With a population of only 5,000,000

  1163
  in Canada they required seven or eight separate Parliaments; in Australia they found the same; in South Africa they found the same; while in America, with only double the population of the United Kingdom, they had fifty legislative assemblies. They had found out, as Germany had found out, that it was physically impossible to transact local and Imperial affairs satisfactorily in the one Parliament. He would say to this new House of Commons, that, while they might mitigate the rigour of their lot, make it easier for Members to attend, with less sacrifice of health and money and time, do away with some of the worst features of the rules of 1902, they would not succeed, no matter what their desire and their power and their majority, in making this an efficient legislative machine until they lifted off its shoulders the consideration of those purely local affairs with which it was absurd that the time of a great Imperial Parliament should be occupied, and which could only be efficiently and properly transacted under local conditions, governed by local sentiment and local knowledge. He wished the Chancellor of the Exchequer God-speed in this work, and sincerely hoped that before the session was over they might have some limited recommendations from this Committee, by which the House might be enabled to mitigate in some degree the rules unconstitutionally forced upon them by closure by the late Government.
  MR. KEIR HAEDIEsaid the interesting speech to which they had just listened was the best argument that could be adduced in support of the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Worcestershire. It appeared to him that as to-morrow was to le a sort of Parliamentary off-day by reason of the postponement of the Free Trade Motion, that day, or a portion of it at least, might well be taken by the Government for a preliminary discussion of the proposals to be submitted to the Committee. The Committee would be expected to work with promptitude and despatch, and if the Committee had for its guidance a discussion of some of the main proposals in the Government scheme they would have an index to the mind of the House which would by most valuable to them in coming to
  1164
  a speedy decision on the points submitted to them. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would take the suggestion regarding to-morrow into his consideration. It would save discussion at a later stage of the session, when time was more valuable. Reference had been made to the number of new Members in the House. Those hon. Gentlemen were not bound by the traditions and associations of the House, and if the proposed Committee were to contain a large proportion of new Members, who would bring a free and open mind to the consideration of the question, he was sure the result would be beneficial. Further, amongst the Members to be appointed on the Committee there should be a large proportion of those who had had experience of municipal work. The House of Commons was the laughing-stock of every municipal councillor who paid it a visit. The rules adopted by many town councils might with considerable advantage be applied to the business of this House; and if hon. Members who had experience of the London County Council, or any of the great municipalities in the country, were to obtain a predominance on the Committee, he was sure the result would give satisfaction all round. The hon. and learned Member for Waterford had raised several points of considerable interest. There was one more he would like to refer to, and that was the limitation of the time allowed to Members for speech-making. There were addressed, not to the House of Commons, but to constituents outside, long, drawn-out speeches, the reporting of which was very often paid for by Members themselves, and of which the House would be well rid. He hoped the House, therefore, would seriously consider and adopt the suggestion of the hon. Baronet the Member for the Chelmsford Division of Essex in regard to the limitation of speeches. If also the House would take its courage in both hands, and decide to meet not later than neon and rise not later than eight o'clock in the evening, they would have an assembly that would do more business and produce legislation of a better quality than was at present the case. Whatever recommendations were made by the Committee which, while safeguarding the rights of Members, increased the efficiency of the working power of the House, they would find hearty supporters

  1165
  amongst the Members in whose name he spoke.
  MR. PICKERSGILLsaid that the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer suggested that this reference embraced two classes of topics, one of which would require a protracted discussion, and the other consisting of simpler questions which would admit of earlier determination. The right hon. Gentleman evidently contemplated that it might be convenient that the proposed Committee should present an interim Report. One great authority which he had consulted stated that if a Committee desired to present a Report before it had finally completed its inquiry upon the terms of reference, it could do so only by leave of the House. If that was correct it was perfectly clear that words should be inserted expressly authorising this Committee to present an interim Report. If some such words could be added it would be an instruction to the Committee that if they could see their way to present an interim Report, it would meet with the approval of the House.
  MR. SPEAKER: I would refer the hon. Member on that point to Standing Order No. 63, which says—
  "Every Select Committee having power to send for persons, papers and records, shall have leave to report their opinion and observations, together with the minutes of evidence taken before them, to the House, and also to make a special Report of any matters which they may think fit to bring to the notice of the House."
  I must remind the hon. Member also that the Public Accounts Committee are constantly making interim Reports.
  MR. PICKERSGILL: Thank you, Sir.
  MR. STUART WORTLEYsaid the limited character of this proposal had not prevented the hon. Member for Mid Glamorganshire making a substantial contribution to the debate travelling over a wide field. The hon. and learned Member for Waterford had raised two or three tremendous issues. He had presented to the House a sweeping condemnation of the whole system of Grand Committees and also the more interesting question of the unedifying scenes which had resulted from the change in the dinner hour. If that
  1166
  question was to be gone into on one side it was necessary that it should be gone into on the other. If there was the unedifying spectacle of hon. Members talking against time upon the re-assembling of the House at nine o'clock, surely the discredit was to be shared by those who knowingly in the sight of all men, and under circumstances which were no secret, ingeniously engineered those carryings over until nine o'clock, long after the debates were known to have been completely and finally exhausted in so far as adding to them anything that was new was concerned. There was one practice which ought to be closely adhered to, and that was that the proceedings of Select Committees should be regarded as strictly confidential. Owing to accidental circumstances in the past, private matters had been divulged and persons had been censured. He wanted to know, in case the right hon. Gentleman communicated to this Select Committee a scheme of new rules, whether that scheme was to be jealously guarded as part of the confidential proceedings of the Committee. He supposed that this Select Committee was not going to act wholly without evidence, and that the evidence desired would be mostly the evidence of hon. Members of this House. He suggested that shortly after the assembling of the Committee some steps should be taken which would amount to a publication of the Government scheme as a whole, so it might be laid upon the Table of the House. The question of interim Reports went to the root of the whole question, because, although there was an inherent power of making first and second Reports, it was obvious that any consideration of the procedure rules must fall under some four, five, or six general headings. There was the question of the morning sitting, whether it should be on Friday or Wednesday. Then there were the questions of how Questions should be put and answered in this House by Ministers, of the dinner hour adjournment, of the Supply Rules, of the Thursday rule, and of the deeply interesting question of the time limit, not upon speeches but upon debates. There were also such questions as the hours of the sittings and adjournment, and the devolution of business to Committees. The hours of sitting and adjournment would depend upon what relaxation was allowed during the

  1167
  progress of the sittings, and the devolution to the Committees would depend upon the amount of time which those hon. Gentlemen who were elected to the House had at their disposal. The manner of putting and answering Questions was another part of the general economy of time, and the same might also be said of the dinner hour, the Supply Rules and a time limit. Therefore it could not be said with truth that they could detach any part of this question from another part. There was another great question which arose upon the terms of reference. The reference was—
  "To consider the question of procedure in the House of Commons, and to report as to the Amendment of the existing rules and upon any new rules which they may consider desirable for the efficient despatch of business."
  Would this Committee be empowered to consider alterations in the rules, which, to carry them into effect, would require statutory authority? He thought it would have been better if the right hon. Gentleman had really made a clean breast of his scheme, if it was in anything like a ripe condition.
  MR. DALZIELsaid there was a unanimous feeling that some change was necessary in the rules of procedure. The view was not limited to any one side of the House. But the question was whether the proposal of the Government was calculated to bring about the result which they all desired to achieve. He might be alone upon this matter, but he was bound to say that he had difficulty in recognising that there was any need for the appointment of this Committee at all. The Select Committee which had been proposed would not be a Committee in the ordinary sense as they understood it, because the Government had a scheme which they were going to submit, and they would have a majority on the Committee. Therefore, he thought the Government ought to take the responsibility if great changes were about to be made. As it was evidently considered necessary that this Committee should be appointed he would not oppose it. He would remind the House, however, that no Committee was appointed when the last alteration in the rules was made. The late Government had a large majority and were responsible for any changes just the same as the present Government
  1168
  would be responsible for any changes now. Private Members as well as official Members must take the responsibility for any changes that were made. Speaking as a private Member, he rather feared that the appointment of this Committee might go further than the House had any conception of. He noticed that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wolverhampton was going to be the Chairman, and he would be acceptable no doubt to all Parties. He would be on this Committee as the representative of the Government, and however, generously minded he might be, his first consideration would lie in the direction of what would be best to carry out the desires of the Government. The present Government had been returned to power to carry out great measures of legislation, and they would have his hearty support in utilising the time of the House for carrying out the mandate that the country had given them. During the existence of the late Government, the rights of private Members were practically abolished, and their opportunities for bringing forward Motions were taken away. Their time for debating questions in Committee of Supply was also seriously curtailed by the guillotine, which made it impossible for them to say anything upon the Votes of many of the great departments of the State. He asked the Government to allow private Members to be well represented on this Committee, and he trusted the Committee would not be allowed to go into questions which ought to be left to the whole House. He could see a difficulty with reference to the question raised by the right hon. Gentleman opposite. Was this Committee going to recommend that the power of questioning Ministers should be limited? If it was, he would offer the recommendation all the opposition he could when the Report was brought before the House. He thought the main questions of procedure which ought to be settled immediately were questions on which the Government should take full responsibility. Even if this Committee made recommendations, the Government would still have to take the responsibility. The Government would take no recommendation of the Committee with which they were not in thorough accord. It seemed to him that one discussion

  1169
  would have been sufficient if the Government could have given the House the scheme they were going to submit. He hoped the scheme would abolish the dinner hour, and do away with the limitation of twenty-three days for Supply. He hoped also there would be an alteration in the hour of sitting on several days of the week, and that the scheme would give them back the Wednesday evening. The suggestion as to more day sittings would be acceptable to those who had nothing else to do but attend to politics and the affairs of this House, and who were supported by the Parties with which they were indentified. At the same time, there were some Members who had their own affairs to attend to as well as the affairs of the House. He thought they might have a day sitting on Wednesday, and still keep the week-end for some members who attached importance to it. He hoped these suggestions would be embodied in the programme of the Government. This matter should not be forced through by a majority, and if the Government scheme had been laid on the Table of the House, a general debate on these points would have enabled the Government to get their proposals through without the delay entailed by the appointment of a Committee. After all, there was little or no evidence to be taken by the Committee. There were a few points on which the opinion of the Speaker or the officials of the House would be necessary, but the changes to be made, in so far as they were personal, would not affect to a great extent the ordinary procedure of the House. Therefore, the Committee to be appointed would be guided by their own personal and private views, and would to a large extent act for themselves. The question of procedure and rules, as a general rule, the House ought to keep in its own hands. Every private Member should have a right to give his views in regard to the proposals without being prejudiced by the importance which might be attached to a scheme brought forward by a Select Committee. It was all very well to say that they would have their opportunity for criticism when the scheme came from the Committee, but they would be told that the Committee was representative of all Parties in the House, that the Committee had come to a decision, and
  1170
  that they must stand by it. He regretted that the Government had thought it necessary to propose the appointment of a Committee, but it was obviously the desire of the House that it should be appointed. The two requests which he had to make were that private Members should be fully represented on the Committee, and also that, when the Committee reported, the Members of the House should have full opportunity of ventilating their views and making any recommendations they thought necessary.
  MR. LAUEENCE HARDYsaid he thought the Government must have realised from what hon. Members had said that they were taking a course which would involve the maximum of inconvenience and the minimum of advantage. They were to-day having what might be called a First Reading debate without the advantage of the explanation by the Minister in charge of the Bill. It seemed to him that this was a question of evidence, and that the best way of obtaining evidence on a matter of this sort would have been to have an ample debate in this House, where every Member could have given his opinion upon the different points. These opinions would have been placed on record, and would have afforded the best materials for a Select Committee of the House when they came to the consideration of the question. That would have been a better way of proceeding than having a select number of Members giving evidence before the Committee. In a matter of this sort it seemed to him more important to get at the real opinions of private Members than at the opinions of those on the Front Bench on whatever side they sat. In regard to this particular reference they were informed that it was formed on the same lines as a reference many years ago Immediately after being told of that precedent, which undoubtedly would give the Select Committee power to act on its own initiative and frame a scheme on its own ideas, they were told that the Government had a cut and dried scheme of their own which they would submit to the Committee. That was a scheme which the Government with their enormous majority would be able to carry when it was brought to the House. By that means when the Committee came back

  1171
  to the House with the scheme the impression would be given that it was not the scheme of the Government, but a scheme threshed out by, and in accordance with the general opinions of the Committee. What they were asked to do to-day was to place before a Select Committee the cut and dried scheme of the Government. If that was so, every Member who had any interest in the matter, should point out at this stage what seemed to him desirable in amending the rules, in order that the Committee when considering the cut and dried scheme of the Government might also take these points into consideration. With reference to the changes which took place some time ago he was glad to see that on some points there had been a change of opinion. He objected very strongly in his place in Parliament to the alteration from Wednesday to Friday when it was proposed, and he was strongly of opinion now that it was not a change for the advantage of public business or the convenience of the House. He thought there was a change of opinion with reference to that. With regard to the suggestion that they should revert to three o'clock as the hour of meeting, they must always bear in mind that the Committee work which was done, not in this chamber, but in the precincts of the House, was acknowledged by many to be the most satisfactory part of the proceedings. If they were to accept the suggestion to meet at noon, or eleven o'clock, they would practically destroy the Committee work of this House. He hoped that very great consideration would be given to the matter, and that no hasty conclusion would be arrived at. There was another subject "which had been raised in a somewhat, aggressive way, by the hon. Member for Waterford. The hon. Member condemned root and branch the system of Standing Committees. He himself had had much experience of the Standing Committees, and he was convinced that they were a most valuable adjunct of the House. He would only instance one measure with which he happened to be connected a few years ago, namely, the Bill to amend the Factory Act. He did not remember a more businesslike discussion than the one which took place on that measure. The work of the Standing Committee was performed satisfactorily, and in a manner which hastened the
  1172
  passing of the Bill through the House. If the Committee of the whole House had considered the Bill, he was perfectly convinced that it would never have passed into law in that or any subsequent session. In the last week of last session the Chairmen of the Panel met and considered a Report to this House in connection with the business of the Standing Committees. That Report was now available, and he hoped that the Government, when framing the new rules, would study it beforehand. That Report, which was unanimous, pointed out the matters which were impeding the advantageous use of this devolutionary system. He believed himself that the reason why the Grand Committees had got into disrepute at the present moment was that they had suffered from the action of the House, owing to the fact that public Bills in the hands of private Members were often sent to the Grand Committee in order that they might reach a stage further than if they had remained in the House, and so give a chance of proceeding with other Bills. The consequence was that every kind of controversial Bill was constantly being thrown on the Grand Committees. He and others had rightly protested in the House against that practice. There was another disadvantage connected with it. These private Members' Bills came up to the Grand Committee without the authority of a Government Department, and it was very often extremely difficult to get a quorum. Members disliked the idea of being dragged up day after day to consider a Bill which they know had no chance of passing in the House; they thought it was very much of a farce, and that they ought not to be required to do it. Hence the amount of undignified work thrown on the Grand Committees had rendered their working unsatisfactory and accounted, to a great extent, for the opinion felt in regard to them in the last Parliament. He asked whether the Government could not seriously consider the suggestions of the Panel of Chairmen, and whether the whole system could not be revised with the object of making these Grand Committees more effective. While the Report to which he had referred stated that in those Committees some sort of

  1173
  power of closure should be given to the Chairman, he himself had always stood aloof from that opinion of his brother-chairmen.
  MR. SPEAKER: I do not think the hon. Member is entitled to discuss the procedure in Grand Committee. The Question of the procedure within the Committee itself is not now before the House.
  MR. LAURENCE HARDYsaid that unless the Standing Order was altered to enable the Chairman of a Grand Committee to apply the closure, he did not know how this question could come before the House.
  MR. SPEAKER: The way to raise the point referred to by the hon. Member would be to extend the Motion now before the House.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELL: On a point of order. The Government in their proposal referred to a scheme of devolution. I take it that that applies to something in the form of a Standing Committee. Now, hon. Members who have dealt with these Committees for many years are clearly convinced that one of the greatest drawbacks to their success is the want of power on the part of the Chairman to apply the closure. Is not this the proper time to raise the question, when the Government are proposing a scheme of devolution?
  MR. SPEAKER: In doing so you are going beyond the words of the Motion now before the House.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: On a point of order, may I ask whether the Resolution now before the House enables the Select Committee to recommend the granting of closure powers to the Chairmen of the Grand Committees or would that recommendation be ultra vires under the terms of the Motion now before the House?
  MR. SPEAKER: The answer to that question is that it would really depend upon the view taken by the Chairman of the Select Committee. It is for him
  1174
  to interpret the limits of the reference, and I would not like to lay down any hard and fast rule in regard to that.
  MR. LAURENCE HARDYthought that the words of the reference would naturally include questions of that character. He might say that the procedure in the Standing Committees were supposed to follow that in Select Committees. The procedure in Grand Committees had, however, changed very much of late from the procedure of a Select Committee and had followed in every detail the procedure of the Committee of the whole House, and the consequence was that the Chairmen of the Grand Committees, in making a ruling, on many points had often found themselves in considerable difficulty. If the procedure of the Grand Committees could be considered by the Select Committee he would suggest that they should lay down more precisely what that procedure should be, and how business should be carried on. There was another point. He was the only Member of the House who had been directly connected with the rule which influenced the position of the Deputy-Chairman. He would suggest that the position of the Deputy-Chairman should be more strictly defined than at present. His duties were undefined, and now that the House had conceded to the Deputy-Chairman a very ample salary he should be given duties corresponding to that salary. In the last Parliament circumstances had arisen under which that rule caused considerable inconvenience. In case of the illness or absence of Mr. Speaker, Mr. Deputy-Speaker took the Chair; but the Deputy-Chairman could not at once step into all the duties of the Chairman of Ways and Means and of Deputy-Chairman without an announcement being made at the Table that Mr. Speaker was absent from the House for some particular cause. That was rather a difficult position, because, if the Chairman of Ways and Means left his place as Deputy-Speaker, and if he wished the Deputy-Chairman to have full power, he must remove himself at once from the House in order that it might be announced that he was absent. He thought that if it was very desirable to have a fifth wheel to the coach, so to speak, the House

  1175
  should surrender some of its jealousy in regard to these matters, and make a rule that these offices should be absolutely interchangeable without unnecessary formalities. It was advisable that these small details known to those who had had practical experience of their inconvenience, should be considered by the Government.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELLsaid that, as he had been a Member of the House for twenty years, he hoped that he might be permitted to point out some of the difficulties which arose from the existing rules of procedure or from the new rules which had been suggested. As to the hour of meeting it would be perfectly impossible to fix an hour which would suit every Member. Supposing the hour was fixed at noon, what would be the result? He was not speaking in a personal sense, for any hour would suit him. But although twelve o'clock might suit a large number of hon. Members who had just come into the House, and who he hoped would come in larger numbers—what would the effect be? First of all, there was a very large class of business men in the House who would not be able to come there and, at the same time, give the necessary time to their private affairs in the hour or two after eight o'clock given in exchange for attending in the House at noon. A second class were the lawyers. He knew it was not a very popular thing to defend the lawyers here or anywhere else. Some people imagined that they could get on very well without them, although he certainly did not think so. It was hard enough for men engaged in their profession all day to get to the House at two o'clock, and he knew that the House had lost a good deal by their absence until three or four o'clock. But if the House met at noon there would be confusion worse confounded. Their presence was not only desirable, but essential for the proper conduct of the proceedings of the House. Then, there were the Ministers. These Gentlemen were in the House until the adjournment at midnight or later. If the House were to meet at noon how could these Gentlemen attend in their Offices to the business of the State? It was perfectly impossible. Another thing was that Committees sat at half-past
  1176
  eleven or twelve, and they could not have all the Committees and the House itself sitting at the same time. Proposals of this kind of change were made at the beginning of every new Parliament, and it was a common thing at such seasons to declare that this was the most antiquated establishment in the country as far as business was concerned. But in spite of that, there was a good deal to be said for the House of Commons after all. Their arrangements had been formed after great consideration, and the reason why they did not work well lay, not in the form, but in the system which had grown up in the House of resolutely preventing business being done. An alteration was made by the late Prime Minister under which hon. Members received written replies to Questions, and that was a very great benefit. He hardly knew of any other rule, however, which was brought into operation at that time which was not a conspicuous failure. The most conspicuous failure was that which concerned the dinner hour, under which the sitting of the House was suspended from half-past seven until nine o'clock. No English gentleman could dine in an hour. A division lasting twenty minutes might be taken at half-past seven. That meant that hon. Members got away at ten minutes to eight, were driven to the other end of London, and yet were expected to be back by nine o'clock to take part in the business of the House. It was an impossible condition of things. It might be all very well for Irishmen and Scotchmen because they would give up their dinners, if necessary, but such a regulation was not good enough for the Englishman who could not be expected to go without his dinner. Therefore the whole system had broken down and scandals occurred during the last Parliament which were disgraceful. They had the Government complaining of obstruction on the one hand, and then, after nine o'clock, placing men on the Ministerial Benches for the purpose of obstruction until hon. Gentlemen could be brought back from their residences. Whatever remained, such an arrangement as that must go. In former times, an hour out of the hour and a half was occupied by speeches which otherwise would never have been

  1177
  delivered and they got into the local newspapers. The time was at all events usefully employed. The only other point he intended to refer to arose out of the right hon. Gentleman's hint as to a scheme of devolution of business upon Committees. He did not know what the right hon. Gentleman meant, and his hon. friend the Member for Waterford apparently did not think much of the suggestion. He had always looked upon a scheme of devolution with favour, and he thought that the real reason why Grand Committees had not succeeded so well as they might have done was that the Chairman had not the power of the Chairman of Committees of this House. He recalled one instance in which this power had been very useful, and Scotch Members would remember it very well. There was a Scotch Committee appointed once to deal with a Scotch Bill, and it was one of the most businesslike proceedings that ever took place in the House. His hon. and learned friend had said that he knew perfectly well that there was no substitute for Home Rule, but what he himself said was that if the House would resolve to send Scotch, Irish and Welsh business, or such business as it chose, to Scotch, Irish, or Welsh Committees, there would be plenty of time to do the business of the House, and they could adjourn early three nights a week, and at whatever hour they liked. He thought that the precedent of the Scotch Committee ought not to be lost sight of, and the Government ought, in his opinion, to adopt some such system. He thought, however, that in the matter before the House the Government had been perfectly straight. It was obvious that a Committee must be appointed before great changes could be made, and it had always been the case that changes of this character had been considered by a Select Committee. [AN HON. MEMBER: No.] He thought that upon every occasion before the last change was made the matter was considered by a Select Committee. It was obvious that the Government ought to be fortified by the opinion of a Select Committee. This House was a new one, and there were, perhaps, more new Members in it than ever sat in a new House before. Therefore it was desirable that the
  1178
  Government should be assisted by a Committee, and should also ascertain the general view of Members both old and new. He hoped that the Committee would sit promptly, and that this Session would not be wasted. He trusted they would get some report from the Committee containing a recommendation which would thwart the abuse of the rules of the House of Commons which had been known to exist in the past.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILLsaid that as the Government had not thought fit to produce a scheme which they must have prepared, at all events in the rough, he thought he might be pardoned, as the result of twenty years experience, for offering a few suggestions as to the way in which he thought the rules of the House might be materially altered. He apologised to the House for intervening in the debate, but he did so for various reasons, one of which was that the Party to which he belonged was specifically and specially attacked by the existing rules. That statement was not a matter of inference, because he had for it the word of the right hon. Gentleman who was now the junior Member for the City of London. That right hon. Gentleman made a speech at Blenheim in 1901 in which he declared that the new rules would be very important from the point of view of restraining the discussions of the Irish Party in this House. The other right hon. Gentleman who divided the Leadership with the junior Member for the City of London did him (Mr. MacNeill) the honour to refer to him personally in that connection. The gist of the rules was that the Irish Members were specially to be hit. He wished to refer to the dodge of blocking Motions, for preventing the discussion, on a Motion for the adjournment, of definite matters of urgent public importance. If anyone would look at the Order Paper upon the last day of the session of the last Parliament he would see at least twelve Motions, every single one of which was put down to prevent the discussion of matters of public interest. These Motions were carefully prepared in the Whip's Room, and the moment anything of importance occurred, and it was supposed that a Motion for adjournment might be moved on a matter of urgent public interest, a

  1179
  blocking notice at once appeared upon the Paper in order to destroy the opportunity of discussion. The last page of the Orders of the Day last session was certainly a curiosity. One hon. Member went to excess in the matter. He was afraid that there might be a Motion to discuss the scandal of blocking Motions, and he actually put down a proposal to discuss them, with a view of averting a Motion for the adjournment of the House. A Motion for adjournment upon the Cass case was discussed for some seven or eight hours, and ultimately carried. The time occupied was not too little considering that the liberty of the subject was involved. Now a Motion for the adjournment was relegated to the evening sitting, and, as all the time that could be obtained was three hours, the discussion was necessarily confined to a very few men. In his judgment if a subject was of sufficient interest to be called attention to on a Motion for adjournment, it was of paramount importance and should be taken the first thing. Otherwise it should not be made the subject of such a Motion. He should never forget the first Motion for adjournment under the new rule, when Mr. Speaker Gully, on the necessary number of Members rising, said—
  "The hon. Gentleman will bring his Motion on at the evening sitting at nine o'clock."
  He should never forget the excitement of hon. Gentlemen who never spoke themselves and did not break the record of Balaam's Ass, which only spoke once. He thought the old Motions for adjournment should be restored, and he was speaking in favour of right hon. Gentlemen who when they were in the Government themselves gagged the House. The rules had never been properly codified; they had been merely strung together, being made under very different circumstances and having very different effects. The rule which forbade anyone from saying anything disparaging of judges, Governors-General of India or other high officials, was a very proper rule, but when it was passed it was passed for the purpose of giving the friends of anyone attacked a proper opportunity of defending them. These matters were then made the subject of a special Motion. If the senior Member for the City would look into old cases he would see that the judges were inveighed against
  1180
  in a manner which was not possible now. But the effect of the present rule was to make a judge immune from criticism, which was a thing that ought not to be permitted. That was the case with many of the rules. They were passed under different circumstances, and were now used in a way that it was never intended they should be. Then there was the question of the interrogation of Ministers across the floor of the House. The hon. Member for South Tyrone sang a triumphant pean of praise on the new answer rules, but though the rule affecting answers to matters of detail being given in the Votes worked well, it was quite a different thing with regard to the Answers made in the House. That rule destroyed the power of interrogating Ministers across the floor. This Parliament was only a few days old, yet there were seventy-four Questions starred for oral answer, of which only fifty were answered owing to the absurd time limit. It might be a matter of great importance which a Member desired to raise by a Question to the Minister, but if the Member was not in time, or if, through some arrangement of the Questions being put in groups for the convenience of Ministers, the Question was not reached, the interrogator had to be content with a written answer which did not permit of a supplementary Question being put. He thought it would be better to go back to the old rule and put up with a little inconvenience and waste of time so that any hon. Member who wished to interrogate a Minister should have the opportunity of doing so. He desired to say also that one of the great scandals of the Procedure Rules in the late Parliament was the abuse of the Ten Minutes Rule. When it was first introduced the House was told by right hon. Gentlemen on the Treasury Bench that it would only be used for the introduction of Bills of secondary importance, but it had, on the contrary, been used to introduce Bills of first class importance, and he thought some alteration should be made to ensure that only Bills of minor and secondary importance should be introduced under that rule. He was also strongly opposed to the rule of two o'clock for the meeting of the House. The hour of meeting was not early enough to

  1181
  allow hon. Members to do a day's work in the daylight, and it was too early from the other point of view. When he first entered the House they met at four o'clock, which gave time for hon. Members to do a day's work for themselves before coming down. For his part he would like to see Parliament conducted on the same lines as the business of the law courts. Parliament should no longer be a lounging ground for the wealthy and leisured classes. He should like to see it meet at ten o'clock. Hon. Members ought to give their best efforts to Parliament. He himself was here far from home and gave his whole time and attention to the House, and in his opinion the rule that destroyed the half holiday on Wednesday and gave them five days' hard work without a break imposed too great a strain upon hon. Members. It was never intended to benefit the working Members of the House, but to extend the prerogative of that dangerous element, the "weekenders," who had for so many years carried on the government of the country. He would gladly see even Saturday sittings from the commencement of the session. The old Members of the House perhaps thought more of their own immediate interests than of those of their constituents. Why should not the House sit on Saturdays and give their best time to those whom they represented? Why hon. Members should not do their work he did not know. If the House did not meet at eleven o'clock he would rather they met at four o'clock or half past three than at two o'clock. He considered that the Wednesday afternoon sitting should be substituted for the Friday afternoon sitting.
  SIR CARNE RASCHsaid as a Member of twenty years standing he was very glad this Motion was introduced, and he would support the Government to the best of his power. He could not conceive things being worse than they were at present, and he hoped real and substantial changes would he brought about. They wanted something practical. What did it matter whether a Member took an hour or an hour and a half for his dinner, whether
  1182
  he ate a dog biscuit in a corner of the lobby, or whether he went home at mid-night or later? They wanted something larger than that, and there was only one thing that could do them any good. They could economise the time of the House. All the rest was leather and prunella. What they wanted the Government to do was to shorten the opportunity for the exercise of the dialectical ability of hon. Members. There was no conceivable reason why it should not be done. They had tried to do it pretty often, and although they were supported by the President of the Local Government Board on one occasion they were not always successful; but, to use an ordinary phrase, they were not down-hearted. The first occasion on which the subject was brought up since he had been a Member, was when the hon. Member for Boston introduced a Bill proposing that the speeches of Members should be curtailed by the ringing of a bell. The next time they brought in a Bill they were aided by the right hon. Gentleman opposite and there was a good majority. Then they introduced a Resolution and got a majority of three to one, but after that Ministers took uncommonly good care they should never carry a Resolution of the kind again. Why should not the Government incorporate such a proposal in their Bill or Resolution, or whatever they might bring forward? In the London County Council there was a time limit. In the Church House, although it looked like flying in the face of Providence to closure a bishop, there was also a time limit. The same rule applied in the United Service Institution. Why should it not be introduced into this House? Hon. Members might say, and had said, that the present custom was good enough for their predecessors 100 years ago, and it ought to be good enough for the Assembly to-day. But things were different. A good deal of water had run under the bridge since then. Hon. Members elected to this House a century or less ago did not come here to speak. If they looked up the journals of the House they would find that not more than fifty Members on either side of the House ever talked at all. They sat silent or applauded their leaders, and got their reward by promotion to another place.

  1183
  But it was all different now. Hon. Members were obliged to speak, to put Questions, and to introduce Bills. Reluctant as he was always to interfere and take up the time of the House, he was forced by his constituents to introduce a Bill for the compulsory marking of shrimps. Since he had been in the House he had seen some shocking instances of how the time of the House was taken up with absolutely nothing. He remembered hearing four members of the medical profession talk for four hours on vaccination. He remembered an hon. Gentleman, now on the other side, talk for an hour and a quarter on a bog in the Hebrides. How could they expect the business of the House to fee carried on properly when such things were allowed? He would suggest that the new Government should bring themselves honour and glory in the first session by helping the House to kill the Jabberwock which they had so often tried to do, but failed.
  SIR BRAMPTON GURDONconsidered that the questions of the time at which the House should meet, the dinner hour, and the day on which the morning sitting should be held were questions for the House itself and not for the Government to decide. When the question was previously under discussion, Members implored the late First Lord of the Treasury to allow the House to pronounce its opinion, especially on the question of the half day being on Wednesday or Friday, without the intervention of the Whips. He quite agreed with the hon. Member for Ashford in what he said about early meetings of the House, and he earnestly hoped the House would go back to the Wednesday arrangement instead of the Friday. Four nights in succession at the House made a great tax upon the Members, and especially upon the officials of the House. He wished to call attention to the question of Supply. Primarily the business of the House was financial—the control of the whole expenditure of the State—and it was a great responsibility they shared with no other place. It was a great misfortune, and indeed a scandal, that Parliament should be called upon to vote millions of money without discussion. He would like to
  1184
  see six or eight or twelve votes put down for a night and as soon as the discussion on any vote began to flag he would like to see the closure put on, at the end of an hour or two according to the importance of the subject, instead of allowing a sort of trivial talk on one vote to monopolise all the time. He also desired to see the discussion on Votes on account confined to the questions whether too much or too little was taken, and whether any new Votes were taken which ought not to be taken on a Vote of account. He did not know whether the Committee would have power about holidays. He hoped there would not be such long Easter and Whitsuntide holidays, as they necessarily prolonged the session. Most would like to have the shortest possible holiday at Whitsuntide in order that they might get away in July.
  SIR JOHN KENNAWAYassociated himself with hon. Members on both sides in welcoming the announcement of the Government. It was time something was done; he had felt for some time that the House was losing the confidence of the country as an efficient machine for carrying out the will of the people and representing the opinions of the country. That loss of power and efficiency was due to many causes, but partly to the omnivorous appetite of the House itself, which claimed to deal with every matter, great and small, over the whole area of the Empire, and also of local government, and was most unwilling to part with any of its jurisdiction either to Grand Committees or to local bodies. There was a determined effort some years back to bring about a system of obstruction by which the House should be deliberately prevented from carrying out its own will. If some better means could be devised in regard to the procedure of the House, he would heartily welcome it. Their Leader, whom he had hoped to welcome back that day and who was never afraid of tackling thorny questions, made an honest attempt to deal with the subject, and allowed the House to make the experiment of transferring the half holiday from Wednesday to Friday. That was not merely a laudable attempt to please the wealthy and luxurious, the drones and the dummies, of whom they had heard that day; it was felt that

  1185
  the business should not be transacted alone by the professional politician, but that those connected with the great industries of the country should be able to attend to the business of the House without sacrificing their own private interests. He regretted the change because it put too great a strain on both Members and officials. They had been passing through a comparatively quiet time, but there might come a time when great constitutional questions were at stake and a conflict between the two Houses of Parliament might arise. He had been told that the interval on Wednesday used to be most valuable to enable differences to be settled and to avoid that friction and heat which they all deprecated. Therefore he hoped the short sitting on Wednesdays would be restored. As for the dinner hour arrangement at present existing, it seemed to him really to be a waste of time. With regard to private Bills he thought the system by which one hon. Member was able to block a private Bill was too great a power to place in the hands of one man, although it might be used occasionally to prevent vexatious measures from passing. He thought the object of the Government had been attained by this discussion, and he hoped some practical proposals would be forthcoming which would restore the confidence of the country. It would be a very dangerous thing if the country lost confidence in the House of Commons, and he trusted that confidence would be maintained by the substitution of rules of a moderate and useful character.
  MR. SOAMESsaid that last session certain days were allocated for the discussion of certain matters, and what happened? One whole night was occupied discussing matters of very small moment, and when the end of the session arrived important questions had to be passed without any discussion at all. The same thing might happen the next session and the session after that, and they might again have one of the most important departments of the State passing Estimates without any discussion at all. That was not at all satisfactory and would not be considered so, he felt sure, by any section of the House. He thought that a certain amount of
  1186
  time ought to be allocated each session to two or three particular departments, and the next session the time ought to be devoted to the discussion of departments which had not been discussed in the previous year, and in this way every department would get a full discussion of its Estimates in turn. At one period of the session they were engaged in marching through the lobby, and all the good that this did was to allow those who had not attended the debates regularly to increase their records in the division lobby. He objected to scores of millions of pounds being passed without discussion, and if some change in this direction could be made it would be a distinct gain to the public service. With regard to the great waste of time caused by the present method of taking divisions, he thought some change was necessary. In the present Parliament there was a very large number of Members who would vote on one side, and consequently they would have a very large number in the same lobby. He would suggest that as soon as the clerks were at the desks and the tellers at the doors, hon. Members should be allowed to pass through after having their names marked off, and then they could be counted without waiting for the whole House to be cleared. In this way they would be able to save at least five minutes upon each division. With regard to the practice of clearing the House, he thought it was absolutely unnecessary, and he would remind hon. Members that it was quite a modern custom. It was not the practice to clear the House at all until quite a recent period. He trusted those suggestions would be considered by the Committee. Personally, he did not think tellers were necessary, and they might have a turnstile which would register the number of persons passing through. In that case they would not require any tellers at all.
  COLONEL SANDYSsaid he was glad to have the opportunity of saying a few words on this question, because it was a matter in which for a long time past he had taken a very great interest, and one in which he thought all Members were greatly interested, no matter to which side of the

  1187
  House they belonged. He trusted that in the matters left for the consideration of the Committee this principle would not be lost sight of, namely, that the regulations of the House should be framed in some such way as to prevent the waste of vitality caused by the late sittings of the House. This was the only Parliament in the world which conducted its public business in the middle of the night, when, at a time when their vitality for natural causes was beginning to wane rather than to increase, they applied themselves to tasks which required the whole powers of mind and body. He trusted, therefore, that any alteration of the rules would take the direction of reducing the lateness of the hour until which the House sat. The rule at the present time was that the Speaker should adjourn the House at one o'clock but he would suggest that that should be altered to midnight, and the other rule he would like so altered that the main business which was now interrupted at midnight should in future be interrupted at eleven o'clock. He had sat in five consecutive Parliaments and, having watched carefully the working of these rules, he had come to the conclusion that if this rule could be carried it would conduce to the better and more efficient conduct of public business. It might be argued that the discussions in the House could not be carried out in the time proposed to be allotted. It might be asked if they abridged by one hour that time, how were they going to get through the business in the short time that would remain? His answer was that any alteration of the rule should provide some means for effecting a reasonable curtailment of debate. Of course, a great deal must be left to the taste of hon. Members themselves. He should like to see an automatic division taken at seven o'clock every night, provided the measure before the House had been under discussion two hours; but in case a Minister moved that the automatic division should not then be taken it might be allowed to go forward to a second automatic division, say, at ten o'clock, by which time, if the dinner hour was abolished, the division could be taken. This would enable the question to be settled after it had been
  1188
  vigorously, tersely, and clearly discussed. The French Chamber met at twelve and rose at six o'clock, and if the deputies could conduct the business of the French nation in six hours, he did not see why the British House of Commons, if it met at three and carried on its work till eleven o'clock without interruption, should not be able to get through its business. He hoped the Government would consider that suggestion.
  SIR FRANCIS POWELLsaid he was glad that this discussion had arisen because the elucidation of the opinions entertained by hon. Members would be of great service in future. He hoped that no change would be effected in the arrangements now prevailing under the new rules which prevented the obtrusion of private business into this House at any time. Before 1902 they were not secure at any time; and the whole control of the business of the House was in the hands of Parliamentary agents instead of the Government. This most seriously embarrassed business, and he was sure that the change which had taken place had been highly beneficial to private business, while the fact that the control of the House over its own proceedings had been resumed was a great benefit to all Parties. He wished to refer to the interrogation of Ministers. He believed the system which prevailed in the House of Commons was unique. He believed that the system of personal interrogation across the table was confined to this Assembly, and he was most jealous of this right. It was a right which secured the interest of the people, and kept Ministers, if he might use a colloquial expression, up to the mark. He was sure it tended to efficiency in administration. He hoped that they would revert to the Wednesday half-holiday. That was a duty which the House owed to its officials. If attendance four nights a week consecutively was excessive for hon. Members who had the privilege of coming and going, what must it be for the officials who were detained during the whole of the time? That was unfair, and the convenience of Members was secondary to the health and efficiency of those who served them so ably and well. He voted against the change from Wednesday to

  1189
  Friday, and he would gladly vote for a reversion to the old system. As to the question of devolution, he had long served on the Law Committee, and his opinion was that so long as the House delegated to Standing Committees the duties they were intended to undertake the work had been done efficiently. What was not intended to be delegated to the Standing Committees was highly controversial business, and when that kind of business was devolved on them the tone of the Committees changed. He believed that the just complaint which had been made in regard to those Committees had arisen from that mistaken devolution. It began when the Deceased Wife's Sister Bill was sent to be considered by a Standing Committee. That was a highly controversial matter, and it introduced a totally new spirit into their debates. He hoped that in future a rule would be laid down that no Bills of a highly controversial character were to be delegated to these Committees. He believed it would be easy to devise such a rule. The change which had been made in the hours at which the House met had lessened the time at the command of these Committees, and although they did to a certain extent sit when the House was sitting it was very inconvenient and highly undesirable to do so. They must have regard to the efficiency of any Committee to which the business of the House was delegated. The sitting of Committees during the sitting of the House did so far diminish the efficiency of the House. That was a matter which must be carefully considered by those who had the permanent settlement of the rules. He thought there had been too severe condemnation of the rules proposed by the late Prime Minister. He did not say that all those rules ought to be maintained or that improvement was impossible, but he did say that benefit had arisen from many of them. He hoped that the changes now to be made would assist the new Parliament in the conduct of its work.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER (Sir HENRY FOWLER,)said the debate this afternoon had been a very admirable one for enabling hon. Members to state their views in the manner which
  1190
  he understood the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Worcestershire desired that they should be stated to the House, and, through the Press, to the public. He thought the debate also had fully justified the course which the Government had decided to take, namely, to move for the appointment of a Committee to consider the whole question. When the Report was presented the changes recommended would be fully discussed. One fallacy seemed to him to pervade the debate, however, namely, that the House was parting with its powers and delegating them to the Committee. The House was not asked to do anything of the sort; it was asked, as it had invariably been asked before when any great change in the rules was contemplated—except in the unfortunate instance of the rules of 1902—to refer them first to a Committee. The immediate precedent for their proceeding to-day was that of exactly twenty years ago. At the end of February, 1886, Sir M. Hicks Beach, who had been the Chancellor of the Exchequer, presented to the Committee a series of changes which he proposed to make, and which were by no means interdependent, any more than the changes which the Government now proposed would be interdependent. They were discussed, and the Committee by no means accepted them; they accepted some of the most valuable ones, and altered others, and added to them. The Committee which it was proposed now to appoint would have as free a hand as possible in dealing with all recommendations; they would be able to take all the steps that might be required—to take evidence if it seemed desirable, and, of course, evidence, if taken, would be printed and laid before the House. The Government had no cut-and-dried scheme. As a matter of business, in order to facilitate the working of the Committee, and they themselves being responsible for the conduct of the business of the House, the Government would submit to the Committee the changes which they recommended, and the Committee would deal with them as they thought fit. He agreed that the Committee must be a representative one, and it was very difficult to limit its numbers; but he thought the House would agree that it must not be too large a Committee if it was to work rapidly and effectively. His desire was that it should be a strong Committee,

  1191
  one whose opinion would be valuable to the House, and would tend to guide their ultimate deliberations. Many defects in the procedure of the House had been referred to; he was sorry to have to say, as one of the old Members of the House, that he thought its procedure was in the most unsatisfactory state it had ever been in. He entirely agreed with one hon. Member, who said it could not be worse. He thought a great many valuable suggestions had been made that afternoon. With regard to the holidays at Easter and Whitsun, however, the hon. Member who objected to those holidays could, of course, move an Amendment when the proposal was made that the House should adjourn; but his experience was that generally the House found fault with the shortness of those holidays, and an appeal was made for their extention. They were familiar, also, with a proposal sometimes made to the Leader of the House that if the holidays were extended business would be hurried on rapidly. After all, the House must recollect that the Leader of the House was responsible for the business of the House being done. He did not think that was a very serious complaint. The reference in regard to the dinner hour and one or two other matters justified his right hon. friend in having made this proposal. He thought that the Committee should report as soon as possible, because delay on this question, which excited the greatest interest in all quarters of the House, until the presentation of a great scheme for dealing with our whole business would be most unwise and most unsatisfactory. He hoped the very first thing the Committee would take up would be the present hours of sitting. As to Grand Committees, he knew that they were not working as rapidly or as satisfactorily as they ought to have done. But he would remind the hon. Member for Waterford that they had passed a great number of valuable measures which never would have been put upon the Statute-book without the aid of the Grand Committees, and great reforms of a most valuable character, such as the Scottish Private Bill Procedure Act and Mr. Ritchie's Bill with reference to local government and temperance. The number of Bills which had received the Royal Assent with the assistance of the
  1192
  Grand Committees within the last four or five years amounted to 124.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: How many of these were Irish Bills?
  SIR HENRY FOWLERsaid he did not know. The weakness of the Grand Committee system had been the departure from the principle Mr. Gladstone laid down, and the sending of controversial Bills to these Grand Committees. It was Mr. Gladstone's intention that the Grand Committees should only deal with non-controversial Bills, and that they should settle only details which the House itself had not time to give proper attention to. These were questions which would come under the consideration of the Select Committee, and also the very considerable evils which could not have been foreseen, but which had appeared in the actual working of the Grand Committees. He was sure that any Committee sitting on this question would deal with these and other suggestions. He himself, if on the Committee, would look upon them with a perfectly unprejudiced mind, and he was convinced that the Committee would make their supreme consideration, not the convenience of individual Members, but the general good of the House and its ability to discharge its business most effectively and rapidly.
  MR. STUART WORTLEY: Does the Reference to the Select Committee coyer recommendations which would require the authority of a statute to give them effect?
  SIR HENRY FOWLERsaid that the recommendations of the Committee could have no power whatever in that direction; and the House could either accept or reject them. If the House should accept any recommendation and it required statutory force to give it effect then the statutory force would be given to it by Parliament. For instance, if the Committee recommended any change as to the sitting of Parliament or said that Parliament should close at a certain date, such a proposal would require an Act of Parliament. It was the prerogative right of the Sovereign and of the Sovereign alone in this country to summon Parliament and to prorogue it.

  1193
  By the constitution of the United States the date of the meeting was fixed, but our Parliament was summoned to meet by the Crown. The Committee might express an opinion that the House—as he himself thought was desirable—should meet in the autumn. This subject was discussed some years ago on a Resolution brought forward by Sir George Trevelyan, and the suggestion that Parliament should meet in November was carried by a majority. He hoped that the House would now accept this Motion so that the Committee could be nominated as soon as possible, and get to work.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINasked if the Government would, after they had communicated their suggested reforms, make the House at large acquainted with those suggestions? That could easily be done by laying a Paper. Without such a Paper Members who might be called on to give evidence before the Committee would not have time to give proper consideration to their evidence as to what would be necessary or useless.
  SIR HENRY FOWLERsaid that that was a matter purely in the discretion of the Committee. It would be very inconvenient, and he knew of no precedent for it.
  COLONEL LOCKWOOD: But after the Committee have arrived at an opinion upon a definite subject—for instance, the hours of sitting—will that be presented to the House, or will that be kept until the Committee have finished their work and presented their Report to the House?
  SIR HENRY FOWLER: I think it would be very inconvenient if discussions on any particular proposal were carried on at the same time in the House and in the Committee.
  COLONEL LOCKWOOD: But will every recommendation made in Committee be reported to the House?
  SIR HENRY FOWLER: If any member of the Committee makes a recommendation, that will be recorded and a division taken upon it. I should think it very possible that the Committee
  1194
  would like to have the opinion of Mr. Speaker, the Clerks at the Table, or other officials of the House, and that will in due course be reported to the House.
  COLONEL LOCKWOOD: When a matter, such as a change of hour, is passed by the Committee, is that decided, straight away?
  SIR HENRY FOWLER: Oh, no. If the Committee decides to make an interim Report, which I gather it is the general sense of the House that they should, the Government will give the fullest information of the details to the House which will deal with it.
  MR. BURDETT-COUTTSthought that from the course of the discussion the right hon. Gentleman might congratulate himself on having obtained the opinions of some hon. Members on many interesting points. That showed that they ought to have had longer notice of the proposals of the Government in order that they might have had the opinions of hon. Members more widely taken. As he understood—and this point was raised by the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy—this Committee would bring its Report to the House backed by the great authority derived from its composition, which, to a large extent, would be Ministerial, and by the fact that the changes had been suggested by the Government. He put it, what opportunity would there really be for the House at large to have a free hand with regard to the recommendations made by such a Committee?
  SIR HENRY FOWLERsaid that the changes recommended would have to be passed as Standing Orders of the House, and there would then be ample opportunity for discussing them.
  MR. BURDETT-COUTTSsaid the right hon. Gentleman had missed his point. He alluded to the weight of authority with which the Report would come to the House, a Report based on insufficient knowledge of the opinions of private Members. He would not enter into the details raised by some hon. Members on which, as a Member of

  1195
  twenty years standing, he also held opinions of his own, but he must say that he did not see how the opinions of these private Members could reach the Committee before the Committee came to a decision. He would put one point like that touched upon by the hon. Member for North Norfolk who spoke from behind the Ministerial Benches with regard to the financial business of the House. It would be within the knowledge of some hon. Members that a proposition was formerly under the consideration of the House to have an Estimates Committee formed of Members from both sides of the House which should agree as to the comparative importance of the various Estimates and the amount of time that ought to be devoted to their discussion. It had always seemed to him that one of the most debatable points was as to how the time devoted to the Estimates should be distributed. Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether that proposition would be considered by the Select Committee: would it be contained in the unwritten reference to the Committee with the view to facilitating the saving of the time of the House and rendering its business more effective?
  SIR HOWARD VINCENTcould not understand why the Government did not bring forward their own views and ask the House to express an opinion upon them. Private Members would like, he thought, to know the Government views. There was one matter upon which the House was almost unanimous, and that was that the two o'clock meeting caused the greatest inconvenience. It would be very simple for the Government to put down a Motion on that subject on the Paper—a proposed Standing Order—and ask the House to vote upon it according to their convenience. They did not want a Committee to inquire into such a simple matter as that, and to appoint one was a pure waste of time. He did not understand whether the Committee would take evidence or not, or what opportunity private Members would have of laying their views before the Committee. Would they have the right to write a letter to the Chairman, and, if
  1196
  they did, what guarantee would they have that it would be considered?
  There was a matter about which there could not be any question at all, and that was that the adjournment over dinner was a great convenience to very many Members, and a very great relief to the officials of the House, to whom it must be very tedious indeed to sit throughout a continuous sitting. As to the short sitting being upon Wednesday or Friday they all had their own opinion, and even Members whose first session it was were able to come to a conclusion in regard to which day was the best upon which to deal with private Members' Bills and rest in the evening. His private opinion was that Wednesday was the more convenient day, and that private Members had suffered greatly in consequence of the change to Friday. He sympathised with the view that the interests of private Members had been jeopardised by the change from Wednesday to Friday. This session a division would, in the great majority of cases, take twenty-five minutes, and it must be remembered that a comparatively small number of Members could challenge one. Let the House consider the delay which must inevitably take place under these circumstances. In the French Chamber a division took twelve minutes, and in this House, ordinarily, it occupied only twelve or fourteen minutes; but this session, as Parties were now balanced, and if the Government carried with them the Nationalist and Labour Members, every division must, as he had said, take twenty-five minutes. He therefore thought that some better means of taking divisions should be devised. He hoped the Government would withdraw the Motion and abandon the Committee. He could not understand what the Committee was going to do, and everybody had agreed that the Motion was absolutely useless. For himself he could not see why the Government should not put their views on the Paper, and let them take a division upon them after such discussion as was necessary.
  MR. MORTONsaid the speeches they had had from the opposite side of the House had all condemned

  1197
  the rules and regulations laid down by the late Government a few years ago. He did not see how the appointment of a Committee could be avoided, and pointed out that the Government would have a majority upon it. When the Report came back, therefore, it would practically be in accordance with the wishes of the Government, and would pass through the House without much debate. He should like to say that new Members like himself had found out during the last fortnight that the adjournment from half-past seven to nine o'clock was an absolute waste of time. It was much too short a time to go home or to go to one's club, and much too long an interval in which to wait about the House. If the Committee took the middle course, and recommended the giving up of one hour of the hour and a half, and that the House should close at eleven o'clock, it would be for the advantage of all. For himself he did not care how early they met; they might meet at nine o'clock if they liked, and also meet on Saturdays. After all, they had pledged themselves to attend the House and do the work of the nation, and they ought not to make a holiday or a beanfeast of the business. They should do the work properly in fulfilment of their pledges to their constituents. He hoped a change would be made in regard to the starred Questions, so that the Government of the day would be bound to answer all of them. The opportunity of questioning Ministers was very precious, and if the period of interrogation was cut short at a particular period they should never get the Answers which they required in the interest of the country. One of the most important matters the House had to deal with was the examination of Supply, of which all Governments tried to prevent the discussion. He should like the House to be allowed to look after that part of its work in a businesslike way. He sympathised with the hon. Member who suggested a time limit for speeches; there was a sort of feeling that no man was fit to sit on the Front Benches unless he could make a speech of at least an hour in length, and right hon. Gentlemen seemed to think that they would be deemed incompetent unless they could
  1198
  speak at that length. He was not against the closure, although it operated unjustly against some hon. Members; but a time limit of ten minutes would do no one any harm. This would mean that the speeches of hon. Members would be reported in provincial papers, and unless one got reported what was the good of making a speech. A ten-minutes speech was as much as they wanted to hear from anybody. He was also in favour of the devolution of the business of this House, as a good deal of time which should be devoted to Imperial matters was taken up by local business. He was also in favour of the six o'clock sitting on Wednesday. The making of a short day on Friday only encouraged hon. Members to go to Margate, which they ought not to do, and encouraged them to idleness in regard to the duties which they were sent to Parliament to discharge. If the changes he suggested were made they would be able to carry on their business in the future better than the late Government wanted it carried on.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Ordered, "That a Select Committee be appointed to consider the question of Procedure in the House of Commons, and to report as to the Amendment of the existing Rules and upon any new Rules which they may consider desirable for the efficient despatch of business."—(The Chancellor of the Exchequer.)

  SUPPLY.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee).

  NAVY (SUPPLEMENTARY) ESTIMATES, 1905–6.
  [Mr. CALDWELL, on the Motion of Sir Henry Fowler, took the Chair as Deputy-Chairman.]
  Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

  SUPPLY [27TH FEBRUARY] REPORT.
  Resolutions reported.
CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS (SUPPLEMENTARY) ESTIMATES, 1905–6.
  CLASS II.
  1. "That a supplementary sum, not exceeding £130, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1906, for the Salaries and Expenses of Registry of Friendly Societies."

  CLASS VII.
  2. "That a supplementary sum, not exceeding £36,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1906, for the Salaries and other Expenses of Temporary Commissions, Committees, and Special inquiries."
  3. "That a sum, not exceeding £10,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1906, for a Grant in Aid of the Expenses of the British Commission for the Milan International Exhibition, 1906."

  REVENUE DEPARTMENTS.
  4. "That a supplementary sum, not exceeding £9,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1906, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Customs Department."
  CLASS III.
  5. "That a supplementary sum, not exceeding £1,600, be granted to His Majesty to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1906, for the Expenses of the Office of the Irish Land Commission."

  CLASS V.
  6. "That a supplementary sum, not exceeding £500, be granted to His Majesty to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1906, for the Expenses in connection with His Majesty's Missions Abroad."
  7. "That a sum, not exceeding £54,683, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1906, for paying to the French Government the Compensation awarded to French Fisher men on the Treaty Shore of Newfound land."
  8. "That a sum, not exceeding £8,567, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1906, for the Settlement of the Samoa Arbitration Claims."
  Resolutions read a second time.
  First Resolution agreed to.
  Second Resolution.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
  MR. DALZIELsaid he again called attention to the item included in the Vote for the purposes of the Redistribution Committee. There were one or two points on which the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board had promised them information, namely, how was the £1,200 expended, for what purpose it was permitted, and whether any Report had been issued. Right hon. Members opposite had never seen the Report, and no information could be extracted from the late Chancellor of the Exchequer with regard to it. He submitted that the House was entitled to know where the matter stood, and if the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board could give any information with regard to the matter he would prevent the necessity of any discussion.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. JOHN BURNS,)said, in reference to the Departmental Committee appointed by the late Government to consider the question of redistribution, that the Committee consisted of Colonel Johnstone (who was now in South Africa) as Chairman, Mr. Glen, a lawyer,

  1201
  and Mr. Thomas, an able official of the Local Government Board. The Committee prepared tables and maps and the information as to population and boundaries which was necessary in order to carry out the work submitted to them on the lines of the Resolution discussed in 1905. They were to prepare a scheme to submit to the Government, and, after the expenditure of a great deal of time and money, a scheme was submitted to the Government. Shortly after the Committee reported, however, the Government went out of office, and on going out, for reasons he did not dispute, they wished that the Report should be regarded as confidential. In similar circumstances, possibly, he would have done the same. The officials of the Local Government Board were informed that the Report was to be so regarded. Until that embargo was removed, he thought no other course was open to him but to take the line he took yesterday and to decline to give publicity to the contents of the Report. He had communicated with the late Prime Minister, whose illness they all deplored, and with his predecessor at the Local Government Board, with the result that they removed the embargo of confidence, and therefore he would do his best to have the document made public as soon as possible. He wished to take that opportunity of thanking the late Prime Minister and his predecessor for the courtesy and promptitude with which they had acted in the matter. He was pleased that the document was to be made public, and he hoped that would satisfy the House; but, in saying that, he trusted that this particular instance would not be taken as a precedent, for he could well understand that circumstances might occur in which the continuity of confidence between one Government and another ought to be adhered to.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINexpressed the indebtedness of the Members of the late Government to the right hon. Gentleman for the perfect courtesy and frankness with which he had treated them. When the right hon. Gentleman spoke yesterday, he did not appreciate the motives which induced him to treat this Report as a confidential document, and he then said that the responsi-
  1202
  bility for keeping the document confidential or making it public must rest with the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues. He did not then understand that he was maintaining the secrecy of the document out of a feeling of loyalty to his predecessor, and he desired to acknowledge the motive which actuated him and to make it quite clear that he was not in any way improperly criticising his action. Both his right hon. friend the Member for South Dublin and himself were quite certain there could be no objection to the publication of the Report, and he was glad to hear that that was the opinion of the Leader of the Opposition.
  MR. MORTONwas very glad the Government had given way on this point. When public money was expended in this way the result ought to be made public—at least to the Members of this House. He desired to ask the Financial Secretary of the Treasury if he I could now give the information asked of him yesterday with regard to the London Locomotion Commission. He also hoped the President of the Local Government Board would give fuller particulars as to who had had the £1,200 required for the Poor Law Commission. The House had a right to know whether gentlemen in the employ of the country and already receiving large salaries were being paid additional sums without the consent of the House.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY (Mr. MCKENNA,)said that the expenditure on the London Locomotion Commission to 31st March, 1905, was£15,048 11s. 11d. and the expenditure in the current year had been £2,267, making a total of £17,315 11s. 11d.
  MR. WILKIEcalled attention to the composition of the Poor Law Commission. It might be fitting, if unfortunate, that he, as the first Labour Member returned to this House from Scotland should have to voice the keen disappointment of the Scottish workers that so far their claims to representation on this Commission had been disregarded. Considering the composition of the present Government, so many of its Members

  1203
  hailing from beyond the Tweed, the Scottish workers felt their exclusion all the more. This matter affected the workers directly, and was one in which they were vitally interested. No one could truly say that any one of those appointed in any sense represented the industrial community of Scotland. He understood the Commission was originally appointed because of the pressure of the unemployed question. If that were so it was all the more necessary that representatives of labour who were in close touch with the workers should be appointed thereon. He might be told that the Government had appointed a direct representative of labour in the person of his friend, Mr. Chandler. They appreciated that and knew he would worthily fulfil the duties placed on him. But the fact that the Government had recognised the advisability of the workers of England being directly represented on this Commission simply accentuated and punctuated the claim of the Scottish workers to similar representation. That fact, to them, was—
  "Like the salmon wriggling on the spear, which made the deadly wound the worse."
  Why? Because there was considerable difference in the Scotch and English Poor Law. It might be that the Scottish workers' views would be voiced by those appointed; but their experience was that such work was best done by those thoroughly acquainted with and in touch with the people requiring relief. They respectfully contended that this was one of the matters on which Labour representation would be both beneficial and profitable to the people and the nation as a whole. During the election hon. Members' candidature speeches fairly bristled with sympathy for labour, and they now asked them to put their contentions and promises into practice, and join in appealing to the Government to right this wrong and remove this just cause of complaint of the organised Scottish workers.
  MR. JOHN BURNSsaid he was sorry that he could not comply with the hon. Member's request that this Commission, which in the judgment of many was large enough and in the opinion of others was too large already, should be added to.
  1204
  The only reason advanced for adding to its numbers was that Scotland had not its share of representation. He did not think that plea could be urged with regard to any appointment of the Government. Scotland had very little cause to complain about the number of distinguished men it had sent to this House, the distinguished men it had added to the Government, and some said the disproportionately large number it had added to the Cabinet. In the House, in the Government, in the Cabinet, and in the ranks of the Labour Party themselves, Scotsmen were very numerous, and, in the judgment of some, were almost the predominant partner. He did not think that the claim of Scotland for a larger representation was so strong as the hon. Member seemed to think. This Poor Law Commission was appointed to make a report upon this serious and complex subject as soon as it could possibly do so. It was seriously considered by the late Government, and he had only to read the names of the very large Commission of eighteen, which had now been made into nineteen, and which the hon. Member wished to make twenty, in order to prove its representative character. In the first place Lord George Hamilton was made the Chairman, and he thought everyone would admit that the right hon. Gentleman would make a very good chairman. Then there was the Right Hon. The O'Conor Don and Sir H. A. Robinson who represented Ireland. There was also the Right Hon. Charles Booth, than whom a better name could not be found. Then there was Sir Samuel Provis representing the Local Government Board, Mr. George Lansbury, Mr. C. S. Loch representing the Charity Organisation Society, Mr. P. J. P. Macdougall, Mr. T. H. Nunn, the Rev. L. R. Phelps, Professor William Smart, the Rev. H. Russell Wakefield, the Chairman of the Central Unemployed Committee, Dr. Downes, the Rev. T. G. Gardiner, Mrs. Burnard Bosanquet, Mrs. Sidney Webb, and Miss Octavia Hill. He thought, with those names, the Commission was sufficiently representative to undertake this work. The Prime Minister not long ago received representatives from the British Trades Union Congress, and they represented that the trade unionists of the country were not adequately represented

  1205
  on the Commission. The Prime Minister listened to their representations and considered that there was great force in the claims put forward by them, and consequently he added to the eighteen the name of Mr. Francis Chandler, a member of the Parliamentary Committee of the Trades Union Congress, a J.P. for Manchester, and a gentleman who for many years had been Chairman of one of the Lancashire Boards of Guardians. The Government thought, and he fully endorsed their view, that looking at this Commission from the point of view of size, ability, and the various representative sections embodied in the nineteen names, that all sections of the country would be adequately represented, and out of regard for efficiency and the prospects of this Commission completing its labours within two years, they had concluded that it would be a mistake to add to its size. Therefore, he regretted they were not able to accede to the hon. Member's request. If hon. Members for Scotland were smarting under any sense of injustice he had not seen it particularly displayed, but the hon. Member could rely upon it that either by question or discussion when the Report was before the House, Scotland would have an opportunity of making its voice heard.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Third Resolution.
  Motion made and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
  MR. PAULagain called attention to the footnote on the Civil Service Supplementary Estimates which provided that the sum voted for the Milan Exhibition was not to be accounted for to the Comptroller and Auditor-General. He endeavoured to elicit some information on this point yesterday, and the Secretary to the Treasury gave an explanation which was not intelligible to him, and he got no explanation at all from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. That was not at all satisfactory. He understood that the pres nt Government were only technically responsible for these Estimates and that really they
  1206
  were the Estimates of their predecessors in office. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Worcestershire would be able to explain this matter.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid he took no responsibility whatever for the form of these Estimates.
  MR. PAULpresumed that the Secretary for the Treasury or the Chancellor of the Exchequer in that case must be responsible. This was not a Party but a constitutional question. The Comptroller and Auditor - General was an officer appointed by statute in 1866 when Mr. Gladstone was Chancellor of the Exchequer, and his duty might be described as keeping the nation out of the Bankruptcy Court. He was not responsible to the Treasury or to any public Department, but to this House alone. Although appointed by the Crown he was practically an officer of this House, and like a judge he could be removed only by an address of both Houses of Parliament. Therefore, he was under the special protection of this House and they were bound to see that his independence was recognised and preserved. The present Comptroller and Auditor - General was a man to whom this country owed a debt of gratitude, for it was owing to his energy and acumen that the scandals were discovered which were now engaging the attention of Mr. Justice Farwell and his colleagues. It appeared to be thought by some hon. Members that the duties of the Comptroller and Auditor-General were confined to taking care that the money voted by Parliament was expended for the purposes for which it was voted. But that was not the case. A very important Committee on National Expenditure was appointed by the late Government and it contained some very distinguished men. The Chairman was Sir James Fergusson, and amongst its members was the present Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies, the hon. Member for East Mayo, and Sir Edgar Vincent. The Committee took some very interesting evidence and produced a very interesting report. Among the witnesses called was the late Comptroller and Auditor-General, and he laid it

  1207
  down that this official under the Exchequer and Audit Act of 1866 was completely independent of all Departments. The Comptroller and Auditor-General was a Parliamentary officer, and it was important that the House should preserve the independence of that Gentleman. It was, as stated in the evidence of the officer he had already quoted, his duty to report anything which in his judgment it concerned the House of Commons to know. How was the Comptroller and Auditor-General to report to this House if he was not supplied with the information on which his report was to be founded. All Governments had a tendency to extravagance. It was only a question of degree. The least extravagant Government of last century was the Tory Government of the Duke of Wellington. This was not a question of Party at all. The Comptroller and Auditor-General was the man in the country who had most power, if supported by Parliament, to prevent public money from being wasted, dissipated, and squandered. The Treasury, who, he presumed, were responsible for the Estimate now before the House, took it upon themselves to say that the particulars of the grant in aid would not be submitted to the Comptroller and Auditor-General. He had brought this point before the House in vindication of a great public officer.
  MR. McKENNAsaid that he took the entire blame to himself if the explanation given to his hon. friend was not intelligible to him. He admitted at once that he did not understand the case the hon. Member was laying before the House. He understood that the hon. Member was referring to the prudence of the Treasury in putting such a note as this to the Estimate, and to mean that there ought to be an audit by the Comptroller and Auditor-General. He did not understand him to assert, as he did now, that the Treasury had no authority to do what they had done. If the hon. Member would refer to Class IV. he would find many cases where there was a footnote similar to this. He would find that it had been the practice for grants-in-aid not to be audited by the Comptroller and Auditor-General. That had been the case in regard to grants-in-aid for universities and colleges,
  1208
  harbours, and scientific investigations. In all these cases it had been the practice to put a footnote in the Estimates. His hon. friend would say that the repetition of an illegal practice did not make it legal. Whatever authority the Comptroller and Auditor-General had was acquired only by the Exchequer and Audit Act of 1866. His hon. friend had referred to that Act, but he had not carried his researches far enough. If he would read Section 33 he would find that the powers of the Comptroller and Auditor-General were strictly defined and limited. It would be seen from that section that the Comptroller and Auditor-General had no power to audit the £10,000 except by the direction of the Treasury. The Treasury, as a matter of fact, were not bound to have put in any such note in the Estimate at all. The Treasury had acted absolutely constitutionally and within the powers conferred by Section 33 of the Act of 1866. The audit in this case was undertaken by a body in whom the Treasury had perfect confidence. The Treasury could ask them to show the result of their audit whenever they had made it.
  MR. MORTONsaid he did not wish to discuss the legality of the procedure; what they had discussed the previous day was a matter of principle. Now they were told that this determination to have no audit was taken by direction of the Treasury. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury said that there was practically an audit by the Commission or body to which the lump sum was given. Just imagine what would be said if the London County Council were to appoint their own auditor instead of the auditor appointed by the Local Government Board! He still maintained that these accounts should be audited by the Auditor-General, and he hoped the Government would give way on this point, and that an assurance would be given that the practice now pursued by the direction of the Treasury would be discontinued in future.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid that hon. Gentlemen opposite appealed to him as if he were the responsible Finance Minister, but he did not assume any responsibility for these Estimates.

  1209
  He, however, did not associate himself with any of the criticisms made on this Vote. He thought the course which had been taken was a wise one, and he hoped the hon. Gentleman would turn a deaf ear to the inexperienced opinion of his friends, and continue the usual practice of the Treasury. It was quite untrue to say that there was no audit. What Parliament was asked to do in regard to these various grants-in-aid was to vote a sum of money to a particular institution or body of men, to be expended by that institution or body. What the Auditor-General had to see was that the institution or body for which the House had voted the money had received it.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Fourth Resolution.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
  MR. LEIF JONESsaid that, before the House passed this Vote, he wanted some information in regard to an item of £4,000, which was put down as an excess due to the increase of the staff in connection with the working of the Aliens Act of 1905. Why had this excess expenditure been incurred in the working of the Aliens Act passed only last session? The expenditure under that Act was left entirely to the discretion of the Secretary of State, and such expenditure was to be sanctioned by the Treasury. The Secretary of State was to appoint such officers and an immigration board as he might think necessary, and the expense was to be defrayed up to the amount approved by the Treasury. What he asked was what had been got in return for this excess expenditure of £4,000? Certain officials and medical officers drew salaries—
  MR. SPEAKERsaid that the hon. Member must limit his criticisms to the sum of £4,000.
  MR. LEIF JONESsaid he presumed that the salaries had been paid out of the £4,000. What he asked for was information as to how that money had been spent in the administration of the Aliens Act. It was an excess expenditure, and he presumed that something unforeseen
  1210
  had occurred to cause the Treasury to exceed their Estimates. He contended that they were not getting their money's worth. The failure in the working of the Act justified the opposition which some of them gave to it last session.
  MR. SPEAKERsaid that the hon. Gentleman was criticising the principle of the Act, which he could not do. He must confine himself to this increased demand.
  MR. LEIF JONESsaid he had wished to raise the question of political refugees being kept out of the country under this Act but in obedience to the ruling of the Chair, he would not pursue the matter further on that occasion.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. GLADSTONE,)said he might point out that of this money only £800 had been used for the purposes of the Aliens Act, and that was the first charge which had been made for setting that Act, which came into force on January 1st, in operation. Various officials had been appointed, but he believed that the greater part of this £4,000 would have been included in the ordinary Customs Vote. The sum which was in excess of the ordinary Customs Vote due to the passing of the Act of last year was in respect of the salaries and expenses in connection with the discharge of the duties of the immigration officers under the Act.
  MR. DALZIELsaid he wished to call attention to the action of the unqualified members of the staff. There had been some gross cases of negligence in which passengers were prevented from coming into the country and were kept all night at Dover and then were allowed to proceed.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Fifth, Sixth, Seventh, and Eighth Resolutions agreed to.

  WIRELESS TELEGRAPHY BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  HE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. SYDNEY BUXTON,)in moving the Second Reading of this Bill stated that it was a Bill to

  1211
  extend the existing Act, to which no objection had been taken by any of the parties interested. In view of some objections, which had been taken to this being made a permanent Bill, he pro posed, on going into Committee, to limit its duration to December 31st, 1912. The Bill did not vary in any particular the provisions of the existing Act.
  Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
  MR. CLAUDE HAYcomplained that the right hon. Gentleman had given them no reason why the duration of the Act should be altered to the year 1912.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid the Bill was introduced two years ago by his predecessor, and it ran out in two years. It ran out this year and must be renewed.
  MR. CLAUDE HAYstill complained that the Postmaster-General had given no reasons for continuing the Act for six years. Wireless telegraphy was being continually developed, and, in view of the commercial and national, as well as the scientific, importance of the matter, some further explanation should be given before the House tied its hands for this long period. In order to elicit this information, he begged to move that the Bill be read a second time this day six months.
  Amendment proposed—
  "To leave out the word 'now,' and at the end of the Question to add the words 'upon this day six months.'"—(Mr. Claude Hay.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question.'"
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTONapologised to the hon. Member and explained that the original Act conferred upon the Postmaster-General the power of granting or refusing licences in regard to wireless telegraphy. It was passed two years ago in consequence of new companies springing up. There never had been any intention on the part of the Post Office to deal otherwise than fairly and generously with all concerned, and there had been no complaint from any of the parties during the two years the Act had been in operation. He hoped, therefore, the House
  1212
  would accept this extension Bill, which made no alteration in the original Bill, without further discussion.
  Question put, and negatived.
  Main Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill read a Second time, and committed for To-morrow.
  And, there being no further Business set down for the Afternoon Sitting, Mr. Speaker left the Chair until this Evening's Sitting.

EVENING SITTING.

  SOUTH AFRICAN NATIVE RACES.
  MR. BYLESsaid the subject to which he desired to call attention was a kindred subject to that which occupied so much time last week. It was concerned with a population of 5,000,000 of black people distributed over seven of our African Colonies. The Government last week recognised their paramount right to protect a population of 50,000 Chinese in the Transvaal under the suggested constitution of local self government, and if that was the right view to take in regard to the smaller question it must necessarily follow that it was the right view to take with regard to the larger. The Government were now about to give a new Constitution to the Transvaal which no doubt would be followed up by the federation of our South African Colonies. The question was, were we to leave this vast native population to the uncovenanted mercies of the white people who had settled in that country. He was an advocate of self-government, and he wanted freedom in the self-governing Colonies, but while he was in favour of granting self-government to the Colonies he would not grant to the Colonies the freedom to deprive others of their freedom. The whole history of the treatment of backward nations by Europeans was a sad one and contained many pages on which we looked with regret. Under modern civilisation the spirit of adventure had created a class of men who, when they went among uncivilised people, seemed to lose that humane and benevolent relationship

  1213
  which those at home retained. They had been rightly described as prospectors "who belonged to no country and who owned no moral law." He frankly admitted he could not trust the men who under this new system of government would have power over the native races. The Boer record with regard to their treatment of the natives was not a good one; the British record had been no better. Both contained many stories of harshness, cruelty, and encroachments on the rights of natives and of slaughter. Both Boer and Briton believed in the doctrine of freedom, but it was the freedom of the white man to "wollop his own nigger." This country could not, and ought not to, throw off its direct responsibility towards the large native population of South Africa which was denied political rights. They were told recently that the population of the Transvaal approved of Chinese labour. He did not believe it; but if it were true, they had approved of treating human beings as animated machines, of denying them the rights of citizenship, and of denying them their very manhood, and all for the object of obtaining cheap labour and preventing these men from improving their status and standard of life. How could we trust those people with the destinies of the vast population to which the Resolution applied? The mine owners had been frank enough in the matter. They openly asked for forced labour and a head tax to compel the men to work. In this country we offered higher wages. As Sir William Harcourt once said—
  "Taxing the poor in order to compel them to labour at work they dislike at a rate of wage far below the market price is, I believe, an economic doctrine purely of South African origin."
  Let them not depart from the tradition of this country whose pride it was to vindicate the freedom of labour without any distinction as to colour or race. He appealed to the House not to surrender the control of these millions of helpless, voiceless, voteless people to the tender mercies of the people of the Transvaal. Our responsibility, as Mr. Gladstone had declared, could not be conveniently confided to native Legislatures. That responsibility had been recognised repeatedly by Parliament in connection
  1214
  with Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and other Colonies. The Resolution he proposed declared that native populations should have the protecting arm of the State to defend them from prospectors and land-grabbers. Let them learn to have reliance on British love of justice. What was immediately wanted was that in the Transvaal Constitution the prerogative of the Crown as supreme guardian of native interests in South Africa should be fully and emphatically asserted. It was a difficult question which would very soon have to be tackled. Why should a white Government destroy the system of communal land owning, which in many ways was a far better system than the system of the private ownership of land that we had in this country? Why should the happy tribal life of natives be broken up, and why should the native races be forced to labour in the bowels of the earth to dig gold which enriched only a mere handful of speculators? He anticipated the assistance of his Labour colleagues in support of the Resolution, as the rights of labourers at home were all involved in the proper consideration of labour abroad. He appealed to a Government, founded as he believed, on the principles of justice and animated by those principles—he appealed to them both on the grounds of Imperial interest and security, and on the higher moral ground of humanity to shield and shelter the unprotected subjects of the King from the dangers to which they were exposed. He moved.
  SIR BRAMPTON GURDONseconded the Resolution. He hoped the Government would always remember that it was their duty to watch over the interests of the nation, and to reserve, as he was very glad to hear they were going to do in granting a Constitution to the Transvaal and Orange River Colony, any questions affecting the natives for the consideration of the Home Government. This was very necessary, for he had observed that residence among natives was apt to blunt conceptions of what was right and wrong in their treatment. When he was sent out to South Africa about twenty years ago by Lord Beaconsfield's Government he was supplied with maps on which the north-east corner of Basutoland was marked "Very wild and wooded country, much infested

  1215
  by bushmen." It was their home, their country, the place where they ought to be, and that was like saying that this House was much infested with Members of Parliament. There was a great danger that this view might very often be taken, not only by the War Office, but by private residents in those countries. He thought very highly of the natives of Basutoland, who were most intelligent and advanced. When he first knew the country it was very excellently administered. After Commandant Griffith came one of the ablest servants of the Crown and one of the finest fellows he ever met, Sir M. Clarke. He was not acquainted with Bechuanaland, but he believed Sir H. Goold Adams had exercised a great influence over the country, and it was a pleasure to him to know that the officers of the British Army had risen to the occasion and had turned out most excellent administrators. He happened to be present when the independence of Swaziland was granted, and he was very sorry indeed when it was necessary to take it away. He had that morning received a letter from which he was glad to say it appeared that the future looked much brighter than he had hoped for. Large tracts—about a third of the country—were to be assigned to the natives. He trusted that, whatever Government was in, the duty of safeguarding the natives would always be reserved; that in every Constitution that was granted "no slavery, or apprenticeship partaking of slavery," would be tolerated. These were the words he used during the general election. He regretted there was not in this country the same horror of anything partaking of slavery as there was years ago. He did not think there was the same humanitarian view. He did not believe it was the idea of slavery that exercised the most influence upon the votes at the last election. He thought it was the distinct and specific promises that were made to the British working men in 1900. He well remembered that the military governor of Johannesburg just before; the end of the war promised openly that as soon as the war was over the country would be open to British workmen, and that Lord Roberts promised those who fought in the war that they should have the first chance of
  1216
  employment. The feeling of working men that they had been deceived had most effect at the recent election. He earnestly hoped that we should return to those feelings which animated the Wilberforces and the Clarksons, and the other great workers for freedom, and thus continue to safeguard the honour of the British nation.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That in any settlement of South African affairs, this House desires a recognition of Imperial responsibility for the protection of all races excluded from equal political rights, the safeguarding of all immigrants against servile conditions of labour, and the guarantee to the native populations of at least their existing status, with the unbroken possession of their liberties in Basutoland, Bechuanaland, and other tribal countries and reservations."—(Mr. Byles.)
  MR. J. M. ROBERTSONsupported the Resolution. He felt strongly that in recent discussions on South African matters the very deep interest which the great majority of Members felt in the right treatment of the natives of South Africa, no less than for the right treatment of the Chinese, was not perhaps adequately set forth, and that it was of extreme importance that it should now be fully expressed. The principle of the protection of the natives for which the Resolution contended involved looking after two things—the physical well-being of the natives and their moral well-being. That raised first of all the general question of the principle on which we should supervise the life of the more backward races over which we had control. It was very commonly held as a condition of the well-being of any nation that its political development should be sequent and continuous. We were often taught in this country that we had a great advantage or superiority over other countries in that our political development had this continuity, while that of other countries had been spasmodic. We were told how very much more wholesome was the political progress of this country than that of France, which had moved by more or less sudden steps; and yet the men who applauded this commonplace, when they had any

  1217
  power over the so-called lower races, were found ready to tear those races up by the roots, to make an end suddenly of the system of tribal law, and to impose upon them all at once the methods of a superior race. That had been done in South Africa as everywhere else where the white race, who called itself superior, had power over the black race, or, as it was called, the lower race. Unhappily there had never been in the whole history of mankind an instance of a civilised race taking anything like a scientific, much less a humane, method of treating the native question, which seemed always to be settled by the passion, pride, and prejudice of race. There was a special danger in South Africa in view of the Constitution about to be given to the Transvaal. In the Transvaal there were political elements which augured worse for the well-being of the native races than could be said perhaps of any elements in the other Colonies. When he was at Cape Town in 1900 he saw many exiles from Johannesburg—"helots" was the word the year before—and he was much and frequently struck by the peculiarly insolent and violent tone taken up by the Johannesburg exiles in regard to the natives. It was a matter of exasperation to them that the natives in Cape Town had some semblance of human rights. If these men had any power in the administration of the new Constitution there was the greatest danger of their using that power for the unjust treatment of the natives, from which it was our duty to protect them. He knew they would be told, as they were always told at such a juncture, that it was our duty to leave these gentlemen, after giving them a Constitution, to manage things for themselves; but it had to be remembered that if these men found themselves in any military difficulty they would once more call for the employment of the whole forces of the Empire to safeguard their interests, and it was the duty i of this country to see that the forces of the Empire should be applied for the preservation of what were considered; to be the principles of civilisation. There could be no question that with regard to the South African War, the promise and the desire to better the condition of the natives was a motive that told
  1218
  greatly with many people in this country. Lord Lansdowne, amongst others, including many of the clergy—and he believed most conscientiously—spoke at the time of the conditions of native life in the Transvaal as particularly bad, and looked forward to an improvement of those conditions as the great been that was to come from the war. Some of the charges made in that connection he held to be unjust. He agreed that the record of the Boers towards the natives was far from clear. He thought there had been guilt on their part, as on the part of all white races coming into contact with other races. He had heard an admission from the Boers themselves that their own calamities opened their eyes in respect of their treatment of the natives, and that they had become conscious of some guilt on their part towards others. But in so far as the charge was violently pressed on our side against them in the course of the war, he thought that it was grossly exaggerated. The right hon. Member for West Birmingham before the war spoke of the treatment of the natives by the Boers as being brutal and disgraceful; after the right hon. Gentleman came home from South Africa after the war he withdrew the charge. In the meantime, however, the war had been made largely upon that charge, and if the right hon. Gentleman's conscience was clear in the matter after his retraction so much the better for his peace of mind. It was quite clear that, whatever were the errors or delusions of people in this country with regard to our going into the war, we were morally obliged to do something for the native races. We were always, in fact, pledged in that way. The Transvaal Convention set forth what was undoubtedly then the sincere desire of people of this country—that anything approaching slavery should be prohibited under even what was called suzerainty at that time. It was this that had done so much to bring upon this country the repute for hypocrisy which it enjoyed in the eyes of Continental nations. He believed it happened in this country that humane, public-spirited Governments laid down certain provisions which they were anxious to carry out, and these Governments were followed by others who showed no such anxiety; and the total

  1219
  action of the country was credited to the insincerity of the race. This country was pledged to do something for the natives, and, after all the other pretences on which the war had been made had been cast to the winds or openly trodden under foot, the question was whether this promise was to be trodden under foot also. Were we to have any justification in the eyes of the world for that infamous and disastrous war? He was certain that the Government would never consent to any action which would lead to a breach of this promise. But how was the promise to be kept? The question had to be asked, What kind of life was really best for the natives? In the year 1900 there were many views set forth by the promoters of the war as to what life was best for the natives. One common view of the gentlemen of Johannesburg was that the best thing for the native was to force him to work in the gold mines for nine months and to live in a compound, at the end of which time he would make enough money to go back to his kraal, buy three wives, and do no work ever afterwards. When a little later the cue was to complain of the high wages the natives got, the tendency of the native to do that sort of thing was urged by the same gentlemen against the employment of the native. The gentlemen who ran the interests of Johannesburg had never given the slightest scientific consideration to what was really best for the natives. The assumption was made that we must take such legislative measures as would make the native do more work—that was, for the white man. The House heard a great deal about the dignity of labour in this connection. Some one had remarked concerning a celebrated writer that he had a great hunger and thirst after righteousness in others, and it was so with those who talked so much in Johannesburg about the dignity of labour. But he believed a great deal of misrepresentation was embodied in the account which had been given of the native in South Africa in respect of his disinclination to labour. They were told that the native was indolent, that he lived in perpetual sunshine, and therefore life must be made harder for him in order that he should learn the dignity of
  1220
  labour. If any such conditions prevailed elsewhere in the world they did not prevail in South Africa. It was not easy to make a living by hand labour in a land scourged by plagues. The native of South Africa was, properly, an agriculturist and was not well fitted for work in the mines; and it was not the business of Parliament either to force the natives of South Africa or of any other land into the mines. If there was a shortage of labour in the mines it was a calamity that ought to be borne by the gentlemen who owned the mines. Mining life for the natives was an extremely bad life in two ways. The death rate which it caused amongst natives was simply appalling, and it was particularly dreadful when natives were brought, as a number of them were, from Central Africa. There was a death rate of over 200 per 1,000 among workers in the mines from Central Africa. The mortality in the mines which were marked "good" particularly I called for the attention and intervention of the authorities. There could be no doubt that the introduction of thousands of natives to work in the mines had been the means of spreading deadly disease throughout the whole native races of South Africa. It was always in the diamond or gold mining industry that the lowest and most degrading conditions of labour prevailed. The assumption made was that there was a kind of irresistible need to develop gold mining ad libitum, and that towards that end almost any measure was necessary. He suggested that the main industry of Johannesburg, or, at any rate, that which most moved the politics of South Africa, was not so much the sinking of gold mines, as the floating of them. It was this eternal purpose of the flotation of unnecessary gold mines that underlay the whole of the perpetual demand for labour, and it was the real cause of the South African War. It was, however, as much an orthodox doctrine of political economy now as it was fifty years ago that gold-mining was not an industry which was important to civilisation at all. Coal mines were of far more value to mankind. The richest country in the world contrived to get along with almost no gold currency. The main consideration as to gold was its æsthetic value. He contended that whatever measure the Legislature adopted t

  1221
  should not imperil the welfare of large numbers of human beings. But he denied that it could be for a moment the duty of any Legislature or Government to encourage or support the efforts of men who regarded gold-mining as a great industry because it was one that enriched them. It did not add to the wealth of the world, but only to the riches of individuals, and the duty of the Government was surely to see to the development of the real industry of South Africa, which was agriculture. By common consent gold-mining was a transient industry at the best, and the part gold-mining was now playing in South Africa was something like this: it slew tens of thousands of natives, demoralised natives by the hundred thousand, sowed among them the seeds of far-reaching diseases, and left them to begin a new life on a lower scale of civilisation. It was a common phrase in South Africa to hear it said that "a Kaffir civilised is a Kaffir spoiled." It was also remarked that the Kaffir who went into a town lost his own virtues and acquired the vices of the white man without the white man's virtues. What those particular virtues were that were thus missed by the Kaffir he could never clearly ascertain, but it was certain, by the admission of British colonists, that the Kaffir in his kraal was honest, honourable, and industrious, and if by the admission of our own colonists the species of so-called pseudo-industrial civilisation we were putting up made the Kaffir cease to have those virtues it was the duty of this House to take into consideration the means by which they might, even at the risk of arresting the development of the gold mines, save this race for the civilisation of the future. As between Boers and British, he thought the Boer had the better record of the two regarding the treatment of natives, especially if we included in the British record the wholesale demoralisation of natives in the mines. When in Natal in the year 1900 he met a number of Zulus who did not speak English, but whose language was interpreted for him by the Misses Colenso, whose beneficent sway amongst the Zulus was one of the most beautiful things to be witnessed in South Africa. He tried to get from them their own opinion as to the relative merits of life under the Boers and under
  1222
  the British, and none of them had been at the mines. After a very interesting discussion, in which those Zulus showed as high a capacity for judging their own interests and looking after their own affairs as they would find in the peasantry of any other race, he gathered that they had come to the conclusion that it was better for them to be under a Dutch master, because the Dutch master, though he did not give them high wages or money wages at all, gave them stock, and thus made them small farmers, whilst the British farmer paid fairly high money wages, but got a good deal of the money back in fines. So that from the Zulu point of view the native was really better off under a Dutch master than under an English master. There was no question of physical ill-usage, and this was specially important in this connection. But it was beyond question that there had been flogging and ill-usage of natives as well as Chinese in the mines. It was very difficult to put a stop to that kind of thing. There seemed to be an idea that the white man best showed his superiority over the black by treating the latter as he would treat a dangerous beast. [OPPOSITION cries of "No, no."]
  MR. FIENNES: I have lived in South Africa a considerable number of years and I deny that.
  MR. J. M. ROBERTSONsaid a readiness to kick the native was common among colonists, and if a man demurred to that sort of thing he was constantly told that if he lived there six months he would adopt the views of other people. If he had been told that once, he had been told it fifty times by our own colonists. It was necessary that in the Constitution of the Transvaal measures should be taken to protect the natives from flogging and ill-usage in the mines. The main cause of the native unrest in Natal was the imposition of a poll-tax, the object of which was to force the natives to work either for smaller wages than they would otherwise get or at a kind of labour which they would not otherwise do. It was no part of their business to force native labour into the hands of capitalists. They were told that it was their duty to

  1223
  give the native higher needs, and that the way to give him higher needs was to tax him and make it more difficult for him to live. The true way was to educate him, but when they proposed to do this in Natal, nine men out of every ten would say it must not be done, and that they dare not do it, because that would turn out the white man. What a confession! It would be quite impossible to enforce anything like a system of proper native education in Natal, but might he suggest that it should be part of the business of the Government to give facilities for the education of natives under the new Transvaal Constitution. If this was not done, they made to the world the confession that this Empire rested upon the degradation of human life, even if they got rid altogether of Chinese labour, which was only one phase of this eternal process of degradation of life wherever capital ruled civilisation. It was a common thing to work gold mines by means of forced or servile labour. Whether they called it slavery or not the result of it was just the same. It was the same in ancient Egypt and in Rome. There was an impression that the working of gold mines by slave labour was the way to enrich a great nation, but it was just this mistaken notion which brought ruin upon Spain. Had it been the misfortune of this country to have acquired the mines in the New World which were obtained by Spain he had no doubt that all the deterioration and the financial and industrial decay which overtook Spain would have overtaken this country in exactly the same way. They had suffered enough by this tendency and this process. They had not noticed this deterioration so much because they had a healthy active industry at home; but he thought that hon. Members would agree with him when he said that they could not carry on such practices even on the fringes of their Empire without a dangerous reaction setting in. They looked to the Government to stand up for the dignity of humanity and the rights of all men. A Johannesburg capitalist, speaking of the danger of an influx of trade unionism and of the acquisition of power in governing the Transvaal by white workmen, said, that he desired that the more intellectual section of the community should govern the country. They
  1224
  all desired that the more intellectual section of the country should govern, in so far as it could govern in these matters, and that intellectual section was not to be found among the promoters of a ruinous and destructive capitalistic civilisation in the Transvaal.
  MR. WEDGWOODsaid that for two years after the war he was resident magistrate in one of the largest districts of the Transvaal, and he therefore claimed to know something of the people. During those two years he never saw a Kaffir ill-treated in any way whatever. It struck him that this ill-treatment of the Kaffirs was one of those South African tall stories which were so often told. It was impossible to live among the Boers and country people in the Transvaal as he done and not to like and respect them. He resented, as the colonists of the Transvaal themselves would resent, the imputations which the Motion put upon them: Their best men were as good as our best men, and the average level of their civilisation was not lower than ours—it was higher. They were just as capable of humane feelings. But beside this the hon. Member was advancing a very curious doctrine. This native problem was the question of all questions which most interested the people of South Africa. It was with them from the cradle to the grave, and it was the thing that affected them more intimately than anything else. This Motion was unnecessary and irritating because our fellow-countrymen in the Transvaal were humane and reasonable people, and also because we could not possibly know so much here as they did about the question. But there was another reason. He believed it to be an impolitic Motion altogether. These Colonials objected more than anything else to being dictated to and "bossed by" anybody else. The very fact that any measure was being urged forward by the home Government was sufficient to send a great number of South Africans into the opposite camp. Especially was this the case in regard to the question of the treatment of natives. Those who had read Mr. Theale's history of South Africa would remember that it was shown that it was the interference of the missionary Philip and the

  1225
  fact that he had the ear of the Government at home that produced the Great Trek of 1836. South Africans were in many respects very much like the old French nobility, for they forgot nothing. If we advocated that the British Government should have the right to interfere in regard to this question, then we should unite against the Government not only the Afrikander but the new settler, not only the English but the Dutch. When we had done this, the only thing left for the Government to do would be to climb down, because the colonists would tell them in unmistakable language to go and mind their own business. Hon Gentlemen might think that this Motion would give us some sort of handle with which to expel the Chinamen from South Africa; but he thought the Government might find a better handle. He himself looked to the establishment of a Labour Party on the Rand for a handle, but this was certainly the worst that could be used. His friends in South Africa had a very lukewarm interest indeed in Chinese labour, for they did not come into contact with the Celestial and they neither benefited nor suffered by his presence. But there were questions affecting native government which did affect his friends, and one was the question of Swaziland, and another whether Indian traders and storekeepers should be allowed to compete with white traders. Such questions as those were of the utmost importance to the people of South Africa. He was not present, however, to explain those questions, although he believed that he could make out a fairly good case for colonial opinion. The point was, that the vast mass of colonial opinion was in favour of one certain line of action, and if Parliament put itself to thwart the views of colonials on these questions they were laying up for themselves a very evil future. If we gave responsible government to the Transvaal—and he was thankful that the Government were going to do so—let it be full responsible government, and let them trust their fellow-countrymen. He wanted to see as wide an electorate as possible. Every adult white man should have a vote, and he wished one vote to have one value, so that the men of our own race with their unfortunately small families might have as good a chance as possible. He
  1226
  did not want to see a mere travesty of responsible government. Every Afrikander, every man of our own race, if we interfered with their wishes and pressed home the views of this country in opposition to their views, would give us only one answer, which it would not be Parliamentary to state, but which began with the words "Go to—." And they would be quite right too, because if we were going to trust them we should trust them altogether.
  SIR GILBERT PARKERsaid he thought that most moderate men would be grateful for the speech to which they had just listened. Whatever might be thought upon the question generally, the evidence given by a man who knew the country of which he spoke and who had had the practical experience of the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme must always command respect and attention. When he first read this Motion he thought that on the whole he could agree with it in most of its terms. There was, however, one phrase in the Motion which was intended to have an effect upon the action of the Government in regard to the question of Chinese labour, but the other terms of the Motion should command their attention, and be the subjects upon which the House decided to-night whether there was a division or not. He wished to say a word in corroboration of what the hon. Member opposite had said in regard to the Boer and British population and the attitude of the people of the Transvaal, the Orange River Colony, and the other Colonies in South Africa. Of course it was an easy thing to say that the colonists would resent any action of the Imperial Legislature. He had had a great deal of experience of the Colonies and he ventured to say that the Colonial Legislatures would listen with respect and deference to the views of the Imperial Legislature if those views were put forward temperately and moderately, and without the acrimony of Party controversy behind them. That was the kind of thing of which the colonists complained, for they did not like questions of this kind being made subjects of Party controversy. He thought that behind the speech of the hon. Member for Tyneside there ran all

  1227
  through a tone of acrimony against the past Government—[Cries of "No, no!"]—and he based the burden of his charge upon the late war for which he held the late Government responsible. [MINISTERIAL cries of "Hear, hear!"] They accepted the responsibility, but the war was thrust upon them. ["Oh, oh!"] Yes, it was forced upon them by the ultimatum of President-Kruger, ["Oh, oh!"] They accepted full responsibility for the war, and they were ready to defend the action which they took. What they quarrelled with was the statement made by the hon. Member that it was an infamous war. ["It was."] All he could say was that the late Parliament, by a large majority of its Members, did not characterise that war as an infamous one. [An HON. MEMBER: And where are they now?] Hon. Members opposite had been permitted to make violent charges which were uncalled for without a single dissentient voice from the Opposition, but when he made an attempt to defend the position taken by the late Government he was treated by hon. Members opposite as though he were uttering sentiments unworthy of a man who held honest convictions. ["No, no!"] The hon. Member below the gangway had said that gold mining was practically unnecessary in the development of the commerce and industry of the world. He commended that statement to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He commended it also to the people responsible for the finances of this country and to all those who understood what commerce and finance were in this or any other country. The hon. Member said that life in gold mines was always demoralising and degrading, but he would challenge that statement from first to last. He challenged the hon. Member for Tyneside to assert that life in the mines of Australia and the United States was degrading, and contended that, after the first stage of development, the life in mines settled down into the ordinary occupation of making money and providing a product from raw material for the needs of the country and of the world, which was exactly the same as that coming from any other industry. It had been said that it would be dangerous to give to the new Colonies the control of the natives.
  1228
  It had been suggested that the Commission on Native Affairs which sat from 1903 and reported in 1905 was a packed Commission. Would any hon. Member who looked at the names of the Commissioners and who had read their Report characterise it as a packed Commission? The Commission included Mr. Sloley, the Acting Commissioner for Basutoland, Mr. Marshall Campbell of Natal, who was an expert authority on native affairs, and Colonel Sandford. The statement that it was a packed Commission would not stand the test of any investigation whatever. There were also on the Commission a gentleman from Cape Colony, two gentlemen from Natal, one from the Orange River Colony, one from the Transvaal, and one from Rhodesia. All these gentlemen gave their decision on the evidence presented to them. All of them represented in their separate communities as much uprightness and respect as could be given to any body of men by their fellow-citizens. Their judgment, as stated in a summary of the Report which he would quote, was not in favour of the breaking up of the communal system. Their judgment was that—
  "The time has arrived when locations and reserves should be defined, delimited, and reserved for natives by legislative enactment."
  What more did the hon. Gentleman, want? Further the Commissioners said—
  "This should be done with a view to finality in the provision of land for the native population, and thereafter no more land should be reserved for native occupation. The purchase and leasing of land by natives should in future be limited to a certain area to be defined by legislative enactment, with view to preventing them from coming into conflict with European landowners. Unrestrained squatting on private farms is deprecated, and it is recommended that no native other than bona-fide servants of the occupier, with their families, should be permitted to live on private lands except under Government sanction and control."
  Could any conclusions more meet the expressed views of the mover and seconder of the Motion than those arrived at by that Commission? What conclusion did the Commission come to as to labour?—
  "The remedies suggested are the checking of the practice of squatting, the imposition of a tax on locations based on the number of able-bodied natives domiciled therein, the imposition of a rent on natives living on Crown lands, the encouragement of a high standard among

  1229
  natives by giving support to education as well as to industrial and manual training. It further recommends direct taxation by means of a poll or hut tax of not less than £1 a year in any colony, farm servants in continuous employment being exempted."
  We were to give the natives protection under new conditions and opportunities for being civilised. Did the hon. Member object to the native being taxed in order to obtain the protection which secured him the benefits of education and gave him opportunities for development he would not otherwise possess?
  MR. FLAVIN: Civilisation by taxation.
  SIR GILBERT PARKER: Yes, civilisation by taxation.
  MR. FLAVIN: And by "compounding" them.
  SIR GILBERT PARKERsaid he wondered whether there ever had been a development from barbarism to civilisation and the higher forms of life without giving to the individual who was developed some sort of civic responsibility. It was that sort of civic responsibility which every Government in South Africa proposed in connection with the development of the natives. The mover of the Motion suggested that the natives should be on an exact equality with other races. The natives were in such a position morally, and they should be put in such a position legally, but not until they had placed themselves in a position to be so regarded. In a pamphlet published by Theophilus Schreiner in 1901 in regard to the question of what should be the future of the natives of the Transvaal, Natal, and other colonies, the writer quoted the following statement made in the name of the Home Government by Sir Alfred Milner and Lord Kitchener to Commandant Botha in connection with the peace negotiations—
  "As regards the extension of the franchise to Kaffirs in the Transvaal and the Orange River Colony, it is not the intention of His Majesty's Government to give such franchise before representative government is granted to these colonies, and if then given, it will be so limited as to secure the just predominance of the white races. The legal position of coloured persons will, however, be similar to that which they hold in the Cape Colony."
  In the same pamphlet Mr. Schreiner also quoted the following words used by
  1230
  the Secretary of State for the Colonies in the communication which fixed these terms—
  "We cannot consent to purchase peace by leaving the coloured population in the position in which they stood before the war, with not even the ordinary civil rights which the Government of the Cape Colony has long conceded to them."
  Commenting on these declarations Mr. Schreiner said—
  "These are noble words, worthy of the highest, moral prestige of England, at any time in her history, and they give one the assurance that England will not fail to do the right with regard to the important question under discussion."
  If the hon. Gentleman opposite accepted Mr. Schreiner as an authority on one side of the question would he accept him on the other also? It had been stated here to-night that we were all brothers. He approved of the definition of the Australian who, on being challenged by a certain Free Church minister as to his willingness to accept a native as a brother said, "Yes, I will accept him as a brother, but I will not accept him as a brother-in-law." Beneath that answer lay the secret of the whole question. If the native was to be civilised some degree of civic responsibility was essential; and his moral equality with the white could not be admitted until he was able to take his part in the development of the country in which he was protected. He did not say that the Kaffir could not be educated; but, if he were placed in a position in which he would have absolute responsibility for the development of national or civic life along lines we believed to be civilised, the Government must break down. The education of the native must be a matter of great patience, great care, and great solicitude. What he required more than anything else was training in artisan labour. Therein lay the secret of the development of these races if they were to be developed along the lines which we believed would make them civilised citizens, and that would require a very long period of instruction. He believed that most Members of the House would be willing that the existing system in South Africa should remain, under which the High Commissioner had absolute control of the final application to the natives of all laws passed by the Legislature.

  1231
  This much-abused packed Commission had been so democratic as to suggest that the natives should have representatives in the Parliaments of the Orange River Colony and the Transvaal, and that these natives should be, as it were, an electorate by themselves to choose representatives for the discussion of their own affairs in those Legislatures. If that Commission could give a judgment so democratic as that, would not the House treat their conclusions with respect and deference? He defied the House to read the judgments of this Commission without being impressed by the anxiety on the part of right-minded men to find a solution of a problem which lay so close to the hearts of South Africans. This Ethiopian movement in South Africa did not spring from the hut tax, but was an attempt to teach the 6,000,000 of Africans as against the. 1,000,000 odd of whites, that South Africa was theirs. Did any sensible man contend that South Africa, its industries and its resources, all belonged to the native races? It belonged to civilisation, and it was the duty of civilisation to show the native of the land that he had never used its illimitable resources. In Canada, the United States, Australia, and elsewhere, the natives were being taught that the land in which they lived should be improved and developed exactly as they themselves were being taught and developed. That development could only take place through the wise and non-tyrannous dominance of a white race like our own. He appealed to hon. Members to take a temperate view of this matter and not to associate this movement with the question of the development of the mines. He did not believe that the present Government would do otherwise than take a sane view of this matter, and give to the Legislatures of the colonies independence on the question of the natives, reserving for the Imperial authority power to supervise.
  THE UNDER - SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. CHURCHILL,): The hon. Member who has just sat down has urged us to discuss this matter in a temperate spirit, and, having listened to the whole of this debate, I am bound to say that I have rarely heard a
  1232
  debate conducted with more harmony and moderation. Certainly I shall not be the first to introduce any element of disagreement. His Majesty's Government will not resist the Motion of my hon. friend, but, on the contrary, we shall gladly further his wish to inscribe it in the journals of the House. We accept fully the proposition that there is an Imperial responsibility for the protection of native races not represented in legislative assemblies, and I have in former times, not so long ago, joined with my hon. and gallant friend the Member for the Abercromby Division of Liverpool to assert, as I hope it may always be in my power to assert, the right of any British subject of any race, or any colour, however humble may be his position and however distant the land in which he dwells, to the sympathy and respect of the House of Commons. Taking the second proposition in the Resolution, we have said more than once in both Houses of Parliament that while in regard to the labour conditions in South Africa we are prepared to leave in the hands of the local legislatures all the social, political, and financial considerations, the Imperial Parliament must be consulted in regard to anything which raises moral consideration; and it has been asserted that we shall use the veto of the Crown without hesitation in respect to any legislation which we consider infringes the fundamental principles of British liberty. The third proposition of the Resolution is that to the natives of South Africa should be secured at least their existing status and the maintenance of those reservations in which they are permitted to dwell under their own tribal regulations. That shall be the unceasing care of His Majesty's Government so long as it is represented by its present members.
  Let me look for a moment at some of the colonies in South Africa. In Cape Colony the natives are enfranchised, and although I do not pretend that there are no questions at issue between black and white, yet broadly, it may be said that the natives in Cape Colony have machinery at their disposal for making their voices heard. As to Natal, I will say something a little more in detail before I sit down. Bechuanaland and Basutoland are practically and virtually independent provinces under the special protection of

  1233
  the British Crown, administered by the High Commissioner; and let the House be quite assured that there is no intention of derogating in the slightest degree from the position that they at present occupy. Lord Selborne has in the last few days visited Basutoland—which I think is a rare thing, though not an unprecedented thing, for the High Commissioner to do—and I think that his sympathy and interest in the natives of Basutoland cannot but be advanced by the close personal contact into which he has come with their headmen and the paramount chief. In regard to the Transvaal and the Orange River Colony, to some extent our hands are tied because, as the House well knows, by the terms of the surrender at Vereeniging we agreed with the Boers that no franchise should be extended to the natives of the country until self-government had been granted. At question time my hon. friend the Member for Preston asked whether "natives" included the natives of India. According to the strict interpretations of language the agreement would not include the natives of India; but, according to the general acceptance of the term, "natives" have been taken in many regulations, ordinances, and statutes to include all men of colour belonging to Africa, Asia, or America.
  MR. HAROLD COX: May I ask whether that is the definition of the word "native" which is given in the report of the South African Natives Commission?
  MR. CHURCHILL: I will not quarrel with my hon. friend on a matter of definition or interpretation. I think we are all agreed that we must avoid anything that would be regarded as a breach of faith by those men who fought in the war with such great pertinacity and courage, and nothing would more embitter our relations or embarrass our prospects in future if they had it in their power to say that we had availed ourselves of any strictly legal interpretation to avoid carrying out the conditions of the treaty. We have said that we will reserve and give instructions that there should be reserved and set up special machinery for reserving all questions in which the treatment of the native is to be differentiated from the treatment of Europeans
  1234
  living in the country. The Government are furthermore considering the question of reserving an annual sum of money for the administration of native affairs. The principle of making these reservations in the formation of a constitution is a very clearly established principle in our Colonial system. In the constitution of Western Australia, alluded to by my hon. friend, there is reserved a grant of £5,000 a year, but the Government of West Australia spends a great deal more than that on the education of the natives. There is a reservation in Natal of £10,000 concerning the administration of which I shall have something to say presently. The Commonwealth Parliament of Australia has imitated us by making a similar reservation in the case of New Guinea. I do not wish to anticipate the general statement that will be made, I hope, during the course of the session on the constitutions which will be given to the Transvaal and Orange River Colony; but I say, with every desire to attach significance to my words, that the principle of reserving a definite sum for the special interests of natives and for the maintenance of a native department is one which is receiving earnest attention, and will, I have every reason to believe, issue in accomplished fact. There only remains the question of Swaziland. That is a case in which independence did not produce the good results one might have hoped would have followed from the gift. The King of Swaziland, like other persons prominently connected with South Africa, showed himself profligate with the resources of his people; and in the course of a few years he managed to hand over to concession hunters almost every available source of revenue. The conditions we have found in Swaziland were such as promised no stability whatever. The natives obtained the bare right of living on the land, but concessionnaires everywhere had superior rights of grazing and mining over the same land. A Commission has been at work with the object of terminating this dual and conflicting ownership of the land, and ascertaining once for all what belongs to the natives, and giving them that absolutely for their exclusive use, and ascertaining what in law as recognised by the late Government, of the Transvaal, and consequently by us, belongs

  1235
  to the concessionaires. An area of 154,000 acres has been mentioned as the quantity of land which will be allocated to the native. I am informed, however, that certainly not less than 1,000,000 out of a total of 3,000,000 acres in the country will be so allocated Any opportunity of justly increasing the proportion in favour of the native which may present itself will be eagerly seized upon.
  Turning to the more general subject of debate I would venture to draw a distinction between harsh customs which we dislike and positive cruelty. Positive cruelty requires on all occasions the severe and stern condemnation of this House, and I do not think we should be deterred from speaking our minds by any fear of Colonial susceptibilities. All forms of cruelty to natives are to be reprobated, but there is one form of cruelty which is especially odious; it is when it lakes the form of the exploitation of natives for the purpose of gain. In any such cases it should be clearly understood that His Majesty's Government will do all in their power perhaps will run the risk of attempting something beyond their power—to bring the opinion of the House to bear upon those concerned. For my part regarding as I do all taxation as an evil, I am certainly not prepared to support any system of taxation which, apart from the general purpose of raising revenue for the service of the country, has for its object the intention of forcing natives to do work which, under ordinary economic conditions, they would not have chosen to do, and which no machinery exists to force them to do. The late High Commissioner in South Africa, Lord Milner, was a statesman of fine professions. I do not think anybody could have expressed more clearly and more cogently what I think would be the view of the House to-night upon this subject than Lord Milner. He says—
  "The essence of wisdom with regard to the coloured question is discrimination—not to throw all people of colour, the highest as well as the lowest, into one indistinguishable heap, but to follow closely the differences of race, of circumstances, and of degress of civilisation, and to adapt your policy intelligently to the several requirements of each."
  There is very often a great deal of difference between profession and performance. I make no charges against
  1236
  Lord Milner's humanity. It is quite true that within the past few days he has come forward into the political arena as a Party politician. [OPPOSITION cries of "No!"], and he cannot be said to be any longer under the ægis of the great Department which he served for so long. I should not myself be anxious to be forward in attacking him; but I tell the House most frankly that certainly, as far as I am concerned—and I think I speak for others who sit here—I should not put myself to any undue or excessive exertion to defend Lord Milner from any attacks which might be made upon him. Lord Milner's position in regard to the native question in South Africa is necessarily a very weak one. Being regarded after the war as the inveterate enemy of the Dutch, as the prime author of all their miseries, he had to fall back for his support upon the British section of the population, and upon that particular British section of the population which is called the mine-owning group. In order to placate the mine-owning group, he had somewhat to ignore the interests of the British population. In order to propitiate the British population he had to sacrifice the interests of the Dutch, and in order to compensate the mine-owners, British and Dutch, for these disadvantages he had to sacrifice the interests of the natives. His fine proclamation, which was to have enabled all respectable men of colour to be relieved from the objectionable regulations and provisions of the law, and which was to have established the principle of equal rights for all civilised men, irrespective of colour or creed, from the Cape to the Zambesi, under his administration, resulted in the fact that in the Transvaal only fifteen gentlemen of colour were exempted from the provisions of the ordinary law; and it was left to my noble friend Lord Elgin to apply the provisions of this proclamation to the Orange River Colony. That has been done within the course of the present year. In addition, under Lord Milner, largely increased taxation was levied on the natives of the Transvaal and Orange River Colonies, and although it is quite true to say that the use of the lash was largely diminished, it is necessary to observe that the diminution in

  1237
  the use of the lash was mainly due to the exertions of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham, and not by any means to the exertions of the distinguished representative of the King's authority in that part of the world.
  I will not speak at any length of the motives and principles which have led my hon. friend to bring forward this Resolution. They are motives and principles which are perfectly appropriate when expressed by the representative of a district not altogether unconnected with Manchester. He has that wide sympathy with all native races which has always been one of the noblest characteristics of the old Manchester school. I was reading an entertaining essay by an American author the other day, which I think expresses in the fullest and most complete form the motives which have influenced my hon. friend. If the House will pardon me I will read an extract from it—
  "The Deity that suffers us, we may be sure, can suffer many another queer and wondrous and only half delightful tiling. … The inner significance of other lives exceeds till our powers of sympathy and insight. If we feel a significance in our own life which would lead us spontaneously to claim its perpetuity, let us be at least tolerant of like claims made by other lives, however numerous, however unideal they may seem to us to be."
  I would remind the House that this philosophical observation is sustained by an extract from the report of the Committee on Native Labour in South Africa, which was quoted some years ago in letters, widely published, by the late Sir William Harcourt, whose active and vigilant humanity led him to champion the cause of those whom he thought had no other protector than an eminent Member of Parliament.
  "Not alone,
  he said—
  "does the native labour assiduously at cultivating his wives' fields, but the young men migrate ill their thousands to the mines. Statistics prove these natives, and more especially the Fingoes, to be by far the most industrious people in South Africa. In fact, the native supports the whole economic fabric on his depised and dusky back. It is he that has built our railways; without him the working of our mines would be impossible."
  Now, sir, I have endeavoured to state the general principles which have influenced the action of my hon. friend.
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  But let me also ask the attention of the House while I remark that there are several limitations which must in practice be observed. I hope the House will not think me disrespectful or sneering when I say that we must not forget that, in regard to this native question our principles and sympathies entail no positive sacrifice upon us. Whatever standard we may set up, however lofty it is, it costs us no inconvenience. We may set up the most lofty standard; it is other people who have to live up to it. I do not suggest that for that reason we should lower the standard of our professions. But that fact emphasizes the necessity for caution in applying our principles to the existing circumstances of the case, in the Colonies with which we have to deal. I now ask the House to face other considerations. There are many things in the laws of the colonial Governments which frankly we do not like. We do not approve of them, and we wish they were not there. There are, for instance, provisions which exclude the natives from walking on the footpath in a town, which offend against our sense of democratic equality. But harsh laws are sometimes better than no laws at all, and unless we carry public opinion with us in procuring the removal of any of these objectionable provisions the result would only be their lawless assertion, which, I believe, would impose more injustice and tyranny on the natives than the regulated assertion which is contained in a statute of law. The second limitation on our action, is of course, the great principle of self-government. Self-government is not a moral principle, and when it comes into collision with moral principles I think upon occasion it should be over-borne. But self-government is a fundamental maxim of Liberal colonial policy. It is the master-key of many of the problems which embarrass and perplex us. The responsible government of a Colony is a great gift: it is, I think, the greatest and best gift that we can bestow—the bestowal of Home Rule upon a distant community, to live their own life in their own way, to develop their own civilisation according to their own ideals, through the agency of a representative Legislative Assembly and an Executive responsible thereto. It sounds familiar, does it not?

  1239
  It is one of the most precious gifts we can bestow; but it is a gift that can only be bestowed once. Once it has been given, it is not good to grudge it, and it is impossible to limit or restrict it. It is with these two limitations in mind that I would ask the House to survey the more general considerations which we have to entertain to-night. We have in the British Empire numbers of native States and Dependencies where there are native questions and racial questions of great complexity. All are governed by peculiar conditions. Every one differs markedly from the other. Having regard to all these conditions, our power of intervention varies greatly. In some cases we have great and overwhelming power of intervention, in other cases we have hardly any power of intervention at all. I submit respectfully to the House as a general principle that our responsibility in this matter is directly proportionate to our power. Where there is great power there is great responsibility, where there is less power there is less responsibility, and where there is no power there can, I think, be no responsibility. It is on that general foundation that I approach the questions connected with South Africa. Let me remark that Parliamentary interest in the native question ought not to be confined to South Africa. There are many other countries where things are done which require vigilant attention. But we know more about South Africa than about any other Colony for three reasons—because we have had great wars there, because we have paid more for it, and because a large military force is maintained there, and has been maintained there in the past partly with the avowed intention of redressing the disproportion between the numbers of natives and of European settlers. Therefore in South Africa, above all other Colonies, we are provided with a most sure foothold for intervention in behalf of the natives. We have greater power and therefore greater responsibility. A self-governing Colony is not entitled to say one day, "Hands off; no dictation in our internal affairs," and the next day to telegraph for the protection of a brigade of British infantry. But if we have special duties in South Africa, the circumstances of the time impose upon us an extra degree of caution. Although it is
  1240
  the Colony in which we have the greatest power to intervene, it is also a Colony the most unhappy, the most vexed and torn, and in a highly sensitive condition. The ordeal through which South Africa has passed must not be forgotten. We talk of the heavy cost of the war, of £240,000,000 paid by us, to which South Africa has contributed nothing. But, Sir, the sufferings of South Africa have been such as no Treasury account could equate. Disaster and ruined homes, wrecked railways and three years cut from the free life of every South African under the harsh infliction of martial law, a dislocated social organisation, a devastated countryside—that is the contribution South Africa has made to the tragedy of the last few years.
  The native question, everywhere deserving attention, has in Natal assumed certain features which give ground for legitimate anxiety. That the Colony is acutely apprehensive may be judged from the fact that because two policemen have been killed the whole Colony has been placed under martial law, all the local forces are mobilised, and a censorship has been established over the cable. But the danger is now lessened. Prompt action has, I think, prevented a native rising. And let us not once forget that all native risings begin with the massacre of a few lonely whites and end in a butchery of many blacks. The Natal Government are anxious that a battalion of troops should be sent to Pietermaritzburg to meet any emergency, and they offer to contribute £6,000 a year towards the cost. The House will consider whether that is altogether unreasonable. I confess that, personally, having marched and wandered over a considerable part of the beautiful grassy undulations of Natal, and having mingled a little with Natalians, I have considerable respect and affection for them. Perhaps the Natal Government has not shown as much liberality towards the natives as they might have done. I do not think £8,650 a year for educating the natives is very lavish. But I hope we may be able in future years by any leverage which may be open to us to secure a greater proportion of money to be devoted to native education and to the general amelioration of the condition of the natives in Natal. On the whole,

  1241
  however, the natives in Natal have been a very happy people. They have increased greatly in numbers by immigration as well as by births. The positive occasion of the manifestation of discontent just witnessed has been the collection of the poll-tax. That has been the provocation, but the real causes lie deeper, than the immediate cause of discontent. The poll-tax is a tax to which every one, I think, would have objections in principle. It seems absurd, on the face of it, to tax the poor native at the same rate as the rich planter; but the answer of the Natal Government would be that it is desired as a matter of policy to impose increased taxation on the native, and that the native will even so be more lightly taxed than in any other part of South Africa. Wishing to impose increased taxation upon the natives, they looked out for a method. The increase of the hut-tax as an alternative was greatly to be deprecated. It would mean over-crowding of huts, with serious consequences affecting at once morality and health. Wishing therefore to adopt the poll-tax, Natal has deprived it of racial significance by making it applicable to all classes and races within the Colony. I cannot believe that the opposition to the poll-tax is more than a symptom of discontent far more general in its character and far more remote in its original cause. I submit to the House that native feeling has been profoundly disturbed by the progress of the war. During a war extending over three years they have witnessed scenes of bloodshed. They have seen the dead Boer farmer amongst the rocks and the wounded British soldier creeping for succoar to the kraal, and have heard the distant firing of artillery. They have seen the spectacle prolonged month after month of two white races, whose authority they have always recognised, engaged in fratricidal strife. Such spectacles have produced impressions upon the native mind and aroused excitements in the native breast which it will take many years of calm, prudent, and tactful administration to allay. Upon this, or perhaps beneath it, at any rate simultaneously with it, comes the strange and rather sinister Ethiopian movement,
  1242
  partly religious and wholly and specifically a coloured movement. It is stimulated by coloured missionaries belonging to the African Methodist Episcopalian Church, a branch of the Methodist Episcopalian Church in the United States, one of the oldest, certainly the most powerful and the most remarkable organisation to which negroid civilisation has yet given rise. Missionaries of this Church wander to and fro among the native tribes and villages of South Africa. They repeat the story of Esau and Jacob, of Esau the stronger and the elder who was robbed of his birthright by the craft and fortune of a favoured younger brother. They represent the white men as intruders and robbers who have deprived the native of his inheritance, and they say "Africa for the Africans" and other disconcerting propositions of that character. If to all this be add id the indecisive warfare in German East Africa, the prolonged and not altogether unsuccessful resistance which has been maintained season after season by a few poor tribes against German regular troops; if there be added the perceptible hardening against the native which was characteristic of the Milner regime, while I say there is no reason for immediate apprehension, I am bound to add that this aspect of South African affairs contains elements which require stern and patient attention. In the presence of such an issue all the harsh discordances which divide the European population in South Africa vanish. Farmer and capitalist, Randlord and miner, and Boer, Briton, and Africander forget their bitter feuds and are all united in the presence of what they regard as the greatest peril which they will ever have to face. Even during the worst stresses of the war it was regarded as a nameless crime on either side to set the black man on his fellow foe. I would ask the House to remember for one moment the figures of the South African census. There were 630,000 whites in 1891 to 3,000,000 natives; in fourteen years time in 1904, 1,135,000 whites, to 5,200,000 natives. In the United States the proportion of white men to natives is eight to one, and even there I believe there is sometimes something approaching to racial difficulties, but in South

  1243
  Africa the proportion is one white man to five natives. I ask the House to remember the gulf which separates the African negro from the immemorial civilisations of India and China. The House must remember these things in order to appreciate how the colonists feel towards that ever-swelling sea of dark humanity upon which they with all they hate and all they love float somewhat une sily. In this land of bewildering paradox good produces evil and evil produces good. The gold mines, so long needed to repair the annual deficits, have proved to be the greatest of curses, overwhelming the land from end to end with blood and fire, leaving an evil legacy of debt and animosity behind This black peril, as it is called in the current discussions of the day, is surely as grim a problem as any mind could be forced to face. Yet it is the one bond of union between the European races who live in the country, the one possibility of making them forget the bitter and senseless feuds that have so long prevailed: and which may have led the people of South Africa to look with a real feeling of self-interest and comfort to the armed forces of the British Crown. Let us hope that the presence of a common danger will draw together the two Europeans races and make them forget their long enduring feuds: and let us hope too that the new charity which may come from that feeling of union may lead them to unite, not for the purpose of crushing the native by force, but in the nobler and wiser policy of raising the native to his proper position as an inheritor in what is after all a great estate. At any rate, Mr. Speaker, the course of the Imperial Government is clear. The Government believe that in those wide lands there is enough for all. As far as we have any right or power to intervene, whenever our intervention will be useful, or will not be positively harmful, we will labour to compose the racial differences and animosities by which South Africa has been distracted. We will endeavour as far as we can to advance the principle of equal rights of civilised men irrespective of colour. We will encourage as far as may be in our power a careful, patient discrimination
  1244
  between different classes of coloured men. We will not—at least I will pledge myself—hesitate to speak out when necessary if any plain case of cruelty or exploitation of the native for the sordid profit of the white man can be proved. Above all, we will labour to secure as far as we can a proper status for our Indian fellow-subjects, and to preserve those large reservations of good, well-watered land where the African abor ginal, for whom civilisation has no charms, may dwell secluded and at peace. The Government will not oppose the Motion of the hon. Member. I recognise the friendly terms in which it is couched and welcome the moderate and sympathetic expressions which have been used in this debate; and believing, Mr. Speaker, that Parliamentary attention is rarely directed to any particular object without good results ultimately ensuing, I am very glad that the House of Commons has chosen to-night to survey from another and too often neglected stand point, the sombre panorama of South African affairs.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I have listened to the opening speeches of the debate with an ominous sense that history may repeat itself in South Africa, and repeat itself disastrously. That apprehension is only partially dispelled by the speech of the Under-Secretary. The assertion in the House of Commons of principles without qualification is a method easily misunderstood in South Africa, and it is with a sense of relief that I watched the hon. Gentleman, not for the first time within a week, climb down from those airy regions of philosophy and general admonition of the whole world to walk on the plane of the earth like another man and see the difficulties that confront other men. It appears, then, that this philanthropy, as far as it costs anything, is going to cost something to our fellow-subjects in South Africa and nothing to us here. The Under-Secretary insisted on the danger of a breach of faith—that the Government are bound by the Vereeniging peace. If the Government is going to give liberty to the South African Colonies and at the same time

  1245
  to insist on absolute equality, not only between Boer and Briton, but between white and native, they will make a worse mess of the application of principles to hard facts than the authors of the French Revolution. The Under-Secretary says that there are grave symptoms of native unrest in South Africa. Ought not Members of Parliament, then, to weigh somewhat carefully the words of such a Motion as this and be very cautious in their speeches on such a Motion? The value of all the limitations in one part of the hon. Member's speech—marred only by the unjust and unfounded attack on Lord Milncr—is discounted by the other part of the speech. The Under-Secretary accepts this Motion, and yet one of his own supporters finds much to quarrel with in its terms, because it will not be understood either by Boer or by Briton in South Africa. For years there has been a feeling of soreness in the minds not only of the British but still more in the minds of the Boers, because they thought we dealt in these airy generalisations and imputed to them unjustly a lack of humanity which cannot justly be imputed to either Boer or Briton in South Africa. Our fellow subjects cannot be expected to acquiesce in all these moral reservations if with them statements are volunteered which are wholly impracticable, which show an absence of all knowledge of the conditions under which South African colonists live, and which are injurious to them as men and brothers. What will newspaper readers of South Africa think to-morrow when they see that the mother of Parliaments has been gravely discussing the economic theory that gold mines are of no use to civilisation? What will they think when they find that the hon. Member for the Tyneside Division of Northumberland has committed himself to this statement—
  "What these white men's virtues were I never could ascertain"?
  In South Africa that will be understood to mean that in the opinion of the hon. Member the boast of the white that he belongs to a higher civilisation is only a boast and not a fact. The hon. Member cannot offer a greater affront to South African sentiment and cherished convictions than to tell the white inhabitants
  1246
  that they have nothing to teach the natives, for whose good and well-being, in my opinion, they have shown very great regard.
  MR. J. M. ROBERTSON: There was no such statement in my speech.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I regret that the hon. Member in a speech, the ability of which we all recognise, should have gone on to draw a distinction between the white races in South Africa, and one not in favour of his own countrymen, at a time when all whites ought to be united in face of native unrest. The hon. Member even went so far as to say that our Empire in South Africa would be charged with the degradation of life. Why, our Empire in South Africa has made any life there possible. The present native races now inhabiting South Africa are new races in that country. In the days of our grandfathers over 1,000,000 men were put to death. The present races exist in South Africa because of British rule. It is only thirty years ago that the Fingoes were almost exterminated; now there are 250,000 of them under the British flag. I have but a few more moments of time at my command. As I have said, I welcome the latter part of the Under-Secretary's speech. I trust that that part, with the omission of his injurious attack on Lord Milner, will be cabled to South Africa, and that much else which has been said to-night will not be cabled to South Africa. May I remind the House, and especially right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite, that this is not the first time that the question of the relations of white men with the natives in South Africa has been mishandled? The Chancellor of the Exchequer, who knows history well, need scarcely be reminded of the experiences of Lord Glenelg. Let him turn to the index of Dr. Teale's "History of South Africa," which gives an epitome of the history of Lord Glenelg's connection with South Africa. I will read it—
  "Lord Glenelg becomes Secretary of State for the Colonies, 1835—is in full sympathy with the Party represented in South Africa by the Rev. Dr. Phillip—reverses all that Sir Benjamin D'Urban has done, and finally, after causing unbounded discontent and inflicting severe losses on the Cape Colony, is forced in

  1247
  1839 by his colleagues to resign his Secretary-ship of State.
  It was his mischievous interference between the Boer and the native races, his failure to show some intelligent sympathy with the difficulties which the Boers had to meet living there with those races, that caused the first great calamity of South Africa—namely, the Great Trek northwards. From that came all the woes of South Africa. It was precipitated by a lack of sympathy in this House with the great difficulties which faced Boer and Briton at every turn in practical life in South Africa, and I beg the Under-Secretary, when next he attempts to soar over their heads and illuminate them with so many copybook maxims [Cries of "Oh"] to recollect the disaster which dogged the adventure of Lord Glenelg, and to devote an even greater portion of his speech than he has to-night to the grave difficulties which face white men under our flag in South Africa.

  NAVY (OFFICERS.
  Return ordered, "of (1) all Engineer Officers (Active List) of the rank of Engineer-Lieutenant and above serving

  Rank.

  Name of last seagoing ship served in, exclusive of manœuvres.

  Nature of ship's boilers, water tube or cylindrical.

  Date of leaving ship for shore service.

  Interval since last service afloat.

  (2) All Executive Officers (Active List) now serving at the Admiralty, under the following headings:—

  Rank.

  Name of last seagoing ship served in, exclusive of manœuvres.

  Date of leaving ship for shore service.

  Interval since last service afloat.

  (3) Average intervals since last Service afloat for all Engineer Officers and for all
  Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved, That, in any settlement of South African affairs, this House desires a recognition of Imperial responsibility for the protection of all races excluded from equal political rights, the safeguarding of all immigrants against servile conditions of labour, and the guarantee to the native populations of at least their existing status, with the unbroken possession of their liberties in Basutoland, Bechuanaland, and other tribal countries and reservations.—(Mr. Byles.)

  WINES IMPORTED.
  Return ordered, "showing the quantity of wines, at the various degrees of strength, which were imported into the United Kingdom in 1905, from Spain, Portugal, Madeira, France, Germany, Holland, Italy, and other countries (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 105, of Session 1905)."—(Sir Edward Clarke).
  on shore in the United Kingdom on the 1st day of January, 1906, under the following heads:—
  Executive Officers enumerated above."—(Mr. Bellairs.)
  Adjourned at one minute before Twelve o'clock.