Commons Sitting of 18 December 1906

Preamble
The House met at quarter before Three of the Clock.

Mr. SPEAKER'S ABSENCE.
The Clerk at the Table informed the House of the unavoidable absence of Mr. SPEAKER from this day's Sitting owing, to indisposition.
Whereupon Mr. Emmott, the Chairman of Ways and Means, proceeded to the Table, and, after Prayers, took the

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Chair as Deputy-Speaker, pursuant to the Standing Order.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Ure Elder Fund Order Confirmation Bill [Lords]. Read the third time, and passed, without Amendment.
Ardrossan, Saltcoats, and DistrictTramways Order Confirmation Bill, [Lords]; Dumbartonshire Tramways Order Confirmation Bill [Lords]; Dunfermline and District Tramways Order Confirmation Bill [Lords]. Considered; to be read the third time To-morrow.

PETITIONS.
EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL (RELIGIOUS TEACHING).
Two Petitions from Cardiff, against alteration of Law; to lie upon the Table.
PARLIAMENTARY FRANCHISE.
Petitions for extension to women; From Cardiff (four); Derby; East Ham; and North Salford; to lie upon the Table.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  WEST HIGHLAND RAILWAY EXTENSION FROM BANAVIE TO MALLAIG.
  Copy presented, of Fifth Annual Report by the Board of Trade as to the condition and working of the Banavie and Mallaig Railway, the rates and charges for traffic, and the receipts and expenditure of any company in working the railway, for the year ended 1905–6 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 388.]

  PAPER LAID UPON THE TABLE BY THE CLERK OF THE HOUSE.
  Inquiry into Charities (Administrative
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  (County of Devon, Further Return relative thereto [ordered 26th July, 1905; Mr. Griffith-Boscawen]; to be printed. [No. 389.]

  TIENDS, ETC. (SCOTLAND).
  Return ordered, "Of the rental of each county and each parish in Scotland, and of the value of the tiends appertaining thereto, and the value of such portion of them as is now appropriated to the payment of stipend and communion elements, and the value of such of them as are unexhausted by such payments and which still remain available for the future-augmentation of minister's stipends. (The information to be given under the head of the respective presbyteries and synods.)"—(Mr. M'Callum.)
  ESTABLISHED CHURCH (SCOTLAND) (COMMUNICANTS).
  Return ordered, "in regard to the Established Church of Scotland giving, in separate columns, the number of male and the number of female communicants on the roll in each parish in Scotland for the year 1905."—(Mr. M'Callum.)
  ECCLESIASTICAL EXPENDITURE (SCOTLAND).
  Return ordered, "showing 1. As regards each quoad omnia and each quoad sacra parish in Scotland; (1) The amount of expenses incurred for the past ten years in respect of (1) beadles; (2) sextons; (3) precentors; (4) pew openers; (5) communion elements not specified in decreets of court; (2) The amount of money voluntarily contributed by congregations or by individuals for the past ten years in payment of (1), building and repairing of kirks and manses; (2) ecclesiastical furniture; (3) organs; (4) heating apparatus; (5) stained glass windows; and (6) seats purchased from own councils, trade incorporations, or others; and (3) the amount of dues received during the past ten years for proclamation of banns of marriage."—(Mr. M'Callum.)

  OCCUPIERS OF FARMS (SCOTLAND),
  Return ordered, "showing in the subjoined form the number of occupiers of farms (whether owners or tenants), in
  County of
  Parish of

  Rental.

  Numbers of Persons.

  Gross Rental as per Valuation Roll.

  At £1 and under

  Over £1 and at or under £2

  Over £2 and at or under £3

  Over £3 and at or under £4

  Over £4 and at or under £10

  Over £10 and at or under £15

  Over £15 and at or under £20

  Over £20 and at or under £30

  Total not over £30

  Over £30 and at or under £40

  Over £40 and at or under £50

  Total over £30 and not over £50

  Over £50 and at or under £60

  Over £60 and at or under £70

  Over £70 and at or under £80

  Over £80 and at or under £90

  Over £90 and at or under £100

  Over £100 and at or under £150

  Over £150 and at or under £200

  Over £200 and at or under £300

  Over £300 and at or under £400

  Over £400 and at or under £500

  Over £500 and at or under £750

  Over £750 and at or under £1,000

  Over £1,000 and at or under £1,500

  Over £1,500 and at or under £2,000

  Over £2,000 and at or under £2,500

  Over £2,500 and at or under £3,000

  Over £3,000

  Total over £50

  Grand total

  —(Mr. Sinclair.)

  QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

    Irish Evicted Tenants—Application of James Gore of Rathkenny.
    MR. PATRICK WHITE (Meath, N.): To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-
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    each, county and parish in Scotland, with the gross rental according to the valuation roll, for the year ending at Whitsunday, 1906.
    Lieutenant of Ireland whether the inspector to whom the application for reinstatement from James Gore, Mount Iress, Rathkenny, Slane, county Meath, was referred by the Estates Commissioners, has had any previous experience of such work or any commercial training.

    1241
    whatever; what was the date of his appointment as inspector, and by whom recommended; if the Estates Commissioners will call upon him for an explanation as to why he has not yet reported upon a farm visited by him about three months ago; and whether, considering the urgency of the evicted tenants question, will he suggest to the Commissioners the advisability of having their claims dealt with by inspectors who have some regard for business methods.
    (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) I am informed that the inspector in question was originally appointed by the Lord-Lieutenant to the service of the Land Commission more than seven years ago, and was similarly appointed as an inspector to the Estates Commissioners when the Act of 1903 came into operation. He has thus had considerable experience, and the Estates Commissioners inform me that they have every confidence in his ability and impartiality. The Commissioners add that they deprecate personal imputations on their officials as being both unfair to the officials themselves and calculated to interfere with the proper discharge of their duties. In the particular case referred to the holding was inspected on 7th September last, and the inspector visited the evicted tenant at the same time. The delay in furnishing the report was mainly due to the fact that the inspector was in correspondence with the owner's agent with the object of procuring the reinstatement of the evicted tenant. The owner has instituted proceedings for the sale of his estate, and is not disposed to sell the evicted holding separately. Nothing, therefore, can be done in the case in the immediate future.

    Assistant Clerks in the Department of the Accountant-General of the Navy.
    MR. JOWETT: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he will state whether there are any assistant clerks (new class) in the Department of the Accountant-General of the Navy who are engaged on the same work as, and who share similar responsibilities with, the majority of the second division clerks; and, if so, whether, seeing that owing to the recent reorganisation in this Department promotion to the second division is stopped for an indefinite period, he will say what
    1242
    steps, if any, are being taken to ensure practical recognition of the service of such assistant clerks.
    (Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson.)The Answer to the first part of the Question is in the negative, and it is therefore not anticipated that any trouble is likely to arise.

    The Collard Court-Martial.
    MR. LUTTRELL: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether a battleship and three cruisers were sent from Devonport to Portsmouth for the Collard court-martial in order to comply with the Admiralty regulation that in the port where a court is held the admiral's flag or captain's pennant must be flying; and, if so, whether such regulation could be altered.
    (Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson.)The Answer to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative. The circumstances were wholly exceptional, and the revision of the regulation in, question is not considered necessary.

    Percentage of Cavalry Men in Hospital.
    MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can now state the percentage of men in hospital, for the last twelve months, from the cavalry regiments in England, Ireland, and Scotland respectively.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.).The figures required are as follows:—

    Percentage daily sick.

    England

    2·8

    Scotland

    3·7

    Ireland

    4·5

    Defective Postal Service in Martinstown and Glenravel, County Antrim.
    MR. GLENDINNING: To ask the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been called to the defective postal service in Martinstown and in Glenravel, county Antrim; whether he is aware that although both offices are within a few minutes walk of railway stations, there is only one collection and one delivery on each week day, and no service on Sunday; that letters posted after six o'clock on Fridays

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    are not delivered in Belfast until Monday; and that letters from England or Scotland, if they arrive in Belfast or Ballymena after the despatch of the morning mail, are delayed for a day; and whether, as there is no telegraph office within eight miles, he will give instructions to have a morning despatch, an evening delivery, and a Sunday mail in addition to the present service.
    (Answered by Mr. Sydney Button.)The postal service at Martinstown and Glenravel is correctly described by the hon. Member; but it appears, from the latest information available, that the cost of the service is already high as compared with the amount of correspondence. I have, however, directed further inquiry to be made, with the view of ascertaining whether it is practicable in any way to meet the hon. Member's wishes. I will communicate the result to him in due course.

    Altering Closing Hours of Irish Post Offices.
    MR. DELANY: To ask the Postmaster-General if he will state the number of offices in Ireland affected by the change of closing hours from 10 p.m. to 8 p.m., and the number of officials affected thereby.
    (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) The offices in Ireland at which the hour of closing to the public has been changed from 10 p.m. to 8 p.m. are six in number. The attendance of twenty-two officers was affected by the change.

    Sunday Delivery of Letters at Ballyduff, County Kerry.
    MR. FLAVIN: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that public inconvenience and loss is caused to the fishing and butter industry by the want of a Sunday delivery of letters at Ballyduff, North Kerry; and whether he will accede to the request of the people by granting a Sunday delivery of letters at Ballyduff.
    (Answered by Mr, Sydney Buxton.) I am sorry to find that the cost of the existing service to Ballyduff is so high that I should not be justified, under existing conditions, in establishing a Sunday delivery there at the public expense.

    Overcrowding of the Telegraph School at the Central Telegraph Office.
    SIR J. BETHELL: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the telegraph school at the Central Telegraph Office is greatly overcrowded, and that repeated complaints have been made by those responsible for teaching the male and female learners; whether the chief medical officer has inspected this part of the building since these complaints have been made; whether his Report can be made known; and whether he can state when the necessary alterations will take place.
    (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) The large room formerly allocated to the learners' school was only partly occupied. In August last the urgency of demands for space necessitated the use of the room for other purposes, and the school was removed to one of the instrument galleries; but it was found that at a certain hour in the afternoon the space there was somewhat overcrowded. The medical officer inspected the school in August, and again recently, and was of opinion that measures for relief were necessary. Temporary relief was afforded, and arrangements for further relief are about to be carried out. No formal complaints have been made by the teaching staff. The sick absence of the learners is below the normal.

    Postal Pensions—Established and Unestablished Service.
    MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: To ask the Postmaster-General whether a pension would be granted to an officer who had served twenty-two years in an unestablished capacity, followed by four years established service, or whether it would be held that he was only entitled to a gratuity.
    (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) If the hon. Member will furnish me with particulars of the case to which he refers I will inform him what the position of the officer in question is as regards a pension.

    Battleships under Repair.
    MR. BELLAIRS: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the time under repair given for different ships in Return No. 319 (Casualties to Ships on the Navy List) is

    1245
    taken from the data of the accident or the date on which repairs are actually commenced.
    (Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson.) The time under repair is taken from the date on which repairs are actually commenced.

    Fires in Irish National Schools.
    CAPTAIN CRAIG: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the scarcity of turf in certain school areas in Ireland, and the distance many children have to walk over mountainous roads in inclement weather to attend school in the winter season, he will place on the Estimates a sum of £24,000 to provide fires in all Irish national schools.
    (Answered by Mr. Bryce) The Commissioners of National Education have submitted proposals on this subject, and these are now under consideration.

    Increase of Salaries for Irish National School Teachers.
    MR. MOONEY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has received a resolution from the Newry national teachers urging that there should be an all-round increase of 50 per cent. in the salaries of Irish national teachers; whether an increase of 50 per cent. would put the salaries of Irish national teachers on an equality with those paid to English and Scottish teachers; whether he has received recommendations from the Commissioners of National Education on the same subject; and can he state whether these recommendations have been sanctioned by the Treasury.
    (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) I have received the resolution referred to, as also a number of other resolutions making various suggestions as to the salaries of teachers. All of those will receive due consideration. The Commissioners of National Education have submitted proposals which would have the effect of improving the position of teachers, and the matter is now under consideration.

    Irish Land Cases.
    MR. VINCENT KENNEDY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the
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    Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been drawn to judgments delivered in Dublin on Monday last on nine appeal land cases from county Cavan; whether he is aware that five cases were confirmed, and in four cases rents were raised; did an assessor visit the lands in these cases; did the same assessor act in the nine cases; and, if so, what was his name, and do these decisions which bind the parties for fifteen years show a reduction equal to the average reduction obtaining in like cases in other and similar parts of Ireland.
    (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Land Commission inform me that the facts are as stated in the earlier part of the Question. An assessor visited the lands in each case. Two assessors acted in the nine cases, one in five cases, and the other in four cases. The assessor in each case sits in open Court, and the parties to the case are therefore aware of the composition of the tribunal by which the case is decided. The Land Commission inform me that they do not think it right, in reply to Parliamentary Questions, to discuss the effect of the judicial decisions. They are required by statute to fix the judicial rent in each case, having regard to the interest of the landlord and tenant, respectively, and after considering all the circumstances of the case, holding, and district.

    Purchase of Holding by Patrick Deegan.
    MR. DELANY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether an inspector from the Estates Commission named Booth on the 28th November last, called upon Mrs. Molloy, a sub-tenant to Patrick Deegan, Garroon, Mountmellick, on the estate of the Earl of Drogheda, and, accompanied by the agent and bailiff of the estate, attempted to force Mrs. Molloy to sign an agreement and pay Deegan £5 for the privilege of being allowed to purchase; and seeing that subtenants are entitled to purchase, under the Act of 1903, will he take steps to protect Mrs. Molloy from being compelled by this official of the Land Commission into contracting unfair terms of purchase.
    (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Estates Commissioners inform me that their inspector did not in any way attempt to

    1247
    compel Mrs. Molloy, the sub-tenant, to purchase, but he did suggest that, as Patrick Deegan had paid more than £100 for the interest in the farm, it would be reasonable that he should receive something for his interest in the portion occupied by Mrs. Molloy, if she should purchase under Section 15; and he mentioned £5 as the possible redemption value of the intervening interest, and advised Mrs. Molloy to consult her solicitor before deciding what to do.

    Increased Pay for Irish School Teachers on Removal to Larger Schools.
    MR. MURPHY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether under present regulations any special consideration with regard to increments and promotion can be granted by the Commissioners of National Education to teachers who are removed from small to large and important schools.
    (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Commissioners of National Education inform me that under Rule 112 (e) assistant teachers who may be promoted to principalships of large and important schools receive special consideration when their salaries as principals are being fixed. The Commissioners have submitted proposals for extending special consideration to the cases of teachers generally who may be transferred from small to large and inportant schools, and the matter is now under consideration.

    Disease of Hoose in Calves in West Clare.
    MR. HALPIN: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether, in view of the number of calves that have died from the disease of hoose in West Clare, he will give instructions to the agricultural instructor of West Clare to show the small farmers in his circuit, who are unable to pay a veterinary surgeon, how to perform the intertracheal injection for hoose in calves, which is so rife in the district owing to the wet soil and humidity of the climate.
    (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) Myhon. friend has asked me to answer this Question, which concerns the Department
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    of Agriculture in Ireland. The agricultural instructors are not qualified to give demonstrations in intertracheal injections; such operations should only be undertaken by a veterinary surgeon. The methods of prevention of hoose are set forth in the Department's leaflet, No. 44, a copy of which I have sent to the hon. Member. The Department consider that the treatment described in that leaflet is more efficacious than the operation mentioned.

    Value of Admiralty Contracts.
    MR. BELLAIRS: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he can state the total value of the contracts placed in connection with the large cruisers "Indomitable," "Inflexible," and "Invincible," laid down this year in private yards.
    (Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson.) The total value of the main contracts were as follows:—

    £

    s.

    d.

    Inflexible

    1,224,808

    0

    0

    Invincible

    1,253,348

    13

    4

    Indomitable

    1,248,072

    5

    0

    These figures do not include cost of gun mountings or armament, contracts for which were placed separately.

    Appointment of Irish Assistant Teachers—Knowledge of the Irish Language.
    MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that an assistant teacher was appointed since the 1st of July last in each of the following schools in Irish-speaking districts in the county of Galway: Selerna Boys, Selerna Girls, Spiddal Girls, Claregalway Girls, and Lackagh Boys, and that the teachers who were appointed had not the requisite oral knowledge of Irish referred to in the note to Rule of Commissioners re Regulations; if so, will he explain why the appointments were sanctioned in contravention of the rule; whether any applications were received from candidates who had the necessary knowledge; and, if not, what steps those responsible for the administration of primary education in Ireland intend to take to meet the demand for the services of suitable teachers for Irish-speaking localities.

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    The commissioners of National Education inform me that all the appointments mentioned in the Question were made before 12th September, 1906, when the code for 1906–7, containing the footnote alluded to, was issued to the managers of national schools. These appointments were all made by the local managers, and the Commissioners have no information as to whether any applications were submitted for the positions by candidates possessing an oral knowledge of Irish. As regards the last portion of the Question, the Commissioners include Irish as an optional subject in the programme for admission to training colleges. In most of the colleges provision is made for the teaching of the Irish language. Prizes are awarded annually by the Commissioners to encourage the study of the language in the colleges, and facilities are afforded to teachers for attending

    Training Colleges.

    Number of new Students summoned in the year beginning September 1906.

    Number of those who rank in the Third Grade (the highest grade in which any of them was recognised).

    Number of said Students who before entering took Irish as an optional subject.

    Marlborough Street

    171

    142

    5

    St. Patrick's, Drumcondra

    96

    67

    29

    Our Lady of Mercy, Blackrock

    133

    80

    27

    Church of Ireland, Kildare Place

    70

    24

    Nil

    De la Salle, Waterford

    99

    25

    44

    St. Mary's, Belfast

    57

    43

    25

    Mary Immaculate, Limerick

    49

    27

    18

    As the authorities of each college arrange their own terms of admission, the Commissioners have no knowledge of the colleges under local management that place Irish as an obligatory subject to qualify for entrance. In the Marlborough Street Training College, which is under the Commissioners' management, Irish is placed as an optional subject.
    courses of instruction in the special Irish colleges.
    MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will state the number of students summoned to each training college for national teachers in Ireland in the year beginning September, 1906; the number of those so summoned in the various grades; the number in each college who, before entering, took Irish as an optional subject; the colleges that place Irish as an obligatory subject to qualify for entrance, and the colleges that place it as an optional subject.
    (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Commissioners of National Education have furnished me with the following statement, which gives the particulars asked for so far as they know them:—

    Irish National Education Board—Suggested Committee of Inquiry.
    MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, considering the general dissatisfaction given in Ireland to teachers and people by the Board of National Education, he would appoint a small committee to inquire into their work, policy, and constitution.
    (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) Several inquiries by commissions and committees are already in progress in Ireland, and I am not sure that it would be desirable to add to their number at present. The whole subject of education in Ireland, and of the authorities responsible for it, engages my unremitting attention, and any such legislative reforms as may be needed do not seem to me matters in which the judgment of any committee would be recognised as authoritative.

    Arrest of Canadian Sealers by Uruguayan Government.
    MR. MITCHELL-THOMSON: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can now give information as to the fate of the master and crew of the "Alice Gertrude," who were arrested by the Uruguayan Government on a charge of illegal sealing.
    (Answered by Secretary Sir Edward Grey.) His Majesty's Minister at Montevideo reported on the third instant that he had obtained the release of the Canadian sealers on their own bail.

    Decline in the Fijian Population.
    SIR CHARLES DILKE: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the attention of the Colonial Office has recently been called to the continued decline in the Fijian population of Fiji, and to the high death rate among that portion of the population of the Colony; and whether he can state what fresh steps it is proposed to take to prevent the Natives, whose interest was alleged as a reason for annexation, being replaced by other Polynesian and by Indian immigrant labourers.
    (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) The hon. Member will have seen from the Fiji Report for 1905, published last month, that the decline in the Native population has been checked, that year showing for the first time a slight increase. The death rate last year, though still considerable, was lower than for some years past. I am not aware that the past decline in the native population has been in any way accelerated by the introduc-
    1252
    tion of other Polynesian or Indian immigrants.

    Postal Employees Organisations.
    MR. DU CROS: To ask the Postmaster-General whether the instruction issued in the Post Office Circular, No. 1702, on 13th February, 1906, stating that memorials or appeals may be addressed to him either direct or through the postmaster or head of a department by the secretaries of any of the postal associations, is still in force; if branch secretaries of the various organisations are still at liberty to make representations relating to the service and affecting their class to postmasters and surveyors; whether the secretary of a branch of a postal organisationis liable to censure for addressing memorials to his surveyor and submitting them through his postmaster; and if a higher official is permitted to inform the secretary of a branch of a postal association that he would get himself into trouble for addressing memorials to his surveyor, oven if submitted through his postmaster.
    (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) The instructions issued in the circular referred to are most certainly still in force. Branch secretaries of associations of Post Office servants are at liberty to make representations relating to the service and affecting the class of which the branch is representative to the postmaster or head of the department. If the hon. Member will furnish me with information about the particular case to which the remainder of his Question appears to refer, I will inquire into it.

    Post Office Factory—Trade Union Wages.
    MR. STEADMAN: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that, of fourteen men who are employed in D block, General Factory, Mount Pleasant, and are engaged on the ordinary trade wood-working machinery, only two are receiving the proper rate of wages, the remainder being much below the usual rate; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter.
    (Answered by Mr. Sidney Buxton.) The factory staff, both skilled and unskilled,

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    have been heard before the Select Committee on Post Office Servants, and pending the Report of that Committee, I must postpone consideration of the matter.

    Second Delivery of Letters at Glenarm.
    MR. O'NEILLTo ask the Postmaster-General if he can now state when a second delivery of letters will be established at Glenarm, in the county of Antrim, in accordance with the general desire of the inhabitants.
    (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.): I will send the hon. Member an Answer on this subject as soon as possible.

    Regulations Under the Fertiliser and Feeding Stuffs Act.
    MR. BRODIE: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture whether in view of the fact that The Fertilisers and Feeding Stuffs Act, 1906, will be in force in a few weeks time, the Board of Agriculture, if they have not already done so, will will take immediate steps to frame regulations, as they are empowered to do, as to the manner in which the analyses under the Act should be made.
    MR. BRODIE: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether the Board of Agriculture realise that it is possible in many cases, for instance under sampling regulations, Section 6, sub-section 1 (iv), for the analyst to obtain the full amount of nitrogen or none, and that there are various ways, well known to experts, by which an analyst can, within limits, obtain any result he desires or thinks desirable unless he is directed to a well-defined and universal procedure; and if so, whether the Board will take steps to secure uniformity of procedure in regard to analyses throughout the country.
    (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.)Perhaps I may be allowed to answer these two Questions together. There is much to be said in favour of the
    1254
    issue of regulations having for their object the securing uniformity in the methods of analysis, and the matter is now receiving careful consideration. With regard to my hon. friend's second Question I can only say that no regulations can ensure satisfactory results if the analyst is intent on fraud, and that in every case of chemical analysis the honesty and capacity of the analyst must be assumed unless the contrary is proved.

    Wearing of Uniform by Customs Officers.
    MR. FLAVIN: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether the duties of officers in Customs and Excise bonded warehouses are identical and governed by a common code of regulations; and if so, will he state why the wearing of uniform by officers in Customs warehouses is considered necessary in the public interest, whereas it is not so considered in the case of officers in Excise warehouses; and whether he will consider the advisability of abolishing the wearing of uniform by surveyors and examining officers of Customs.
    (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) I understand that the duties of Customs and of Excise officers in bonded warehouses are governed by a common code of regulations, but are only identical in so far as the business of the warehouse is of a similar character. Customs officers, unlike officers of Excise, are required in the ordinary course of their duty to examine goods on open wharves and quays, on board vessels, in transit or other sheds, and in baggage warehouses, as well as in bonded warehouses; and in the opinion of the Board of Customs, this wide range of employment renders it necessary in the public interest that their officers when employed in the performance of these duties should wear a uniform, which at once establishes their identity as persons authorised by the Crown to examine merchandise and private property for revenue purposes. They inform me, therefore, that they cannot recommend the abolition of the wearing of uniform by surveyors and examining officers. I learn, moreover, that the Board of Customs recently received a deputation of their officers on the subject of uniform, and, after fully

    1255
    considering the matter, decided that it was not advisable to make any change in the regulations.

    Local Train Service from the City.
    MR. CARR-GOMM: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether in view of the discontinuance of the direct train service from the City to New Cross, via Rotherhithe and Deptford Road, and the consequent inconvenience to a crowded part of London which is lacking in any other means of communication, he will make representations with a view to having this service restored.
    MR. WEDGWOOD BENN: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the discontinuance of the direct service of trains from the City to Shadwell and Wapping; and whether, in view of the fact that the railway is, during the winter, the only means of communication with Wapping, he will make representations with a view to having the service re-started.
    (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) I have communicated with the Metropolitan and Metropolitan District Railway Companies n this matter, and am informed that the withdrawal of their steam trains upon the adoption of electric traction on their lines has necessitated the discontinuance of the through service referred to, as the joint committee of the six companies to whom the East London Railway is leased have not as yet seen their way to equip that line for electrical working. It is added, however, that arrangements have been made for a convenient interchange of traffic at the White chapel Station.

    Aliens and Board of Trade Pilots' Certificates.
    MAJOR COATES: To ask the President of the Board of Trade how many pilots hold certificates from the Board of Trade who are of foreign origin and allegiance; and whether he will state their several nationalities, and whether any of them hold commissions from or are in any way at the disposal of their respective Governments.
    (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) The Board of Trade have no power to issue
    1256
    licences or certificates to pilots. They can, however, in certain circumstances, grant certificates to masters and mates enabling them to pilot their own vessels. There is one person of foreign origin and allegiance holding such a certificate granted by the Board. This officer is a Dutch subject and is master of a Dutch vessel. I cannot say whether he holds a commission from or is in any way at the disposal of the Dutch Government. The hon. Gentleman is, no doubt, aware that the Merchant Shipping Acts Amendment (No. 2) Bill contains a clause which will prevent the issue of fresh pilotage certificates to foreign subjects in the future.

    Irish Land Purchase—Stone Quarries and Gravel Pits.
    MR. FLAVIN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state in whom are vested stone quarries and gravel pits where a sale takes place directly between the tenant and landlord, under the Act of 1902; and whether the tenant has the power of selling or using a quarry or gravel pit for his own or other use.
    (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) This Question is one of law which, as I am informed, has not yet been the subject of judicial determination, and I could not not give an opinion upon it without much consideration.

    Teachers who Completed their Training in Irish Colleges.
    MR. J. P. FARRELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland how many teachers completed their course of training in the various training colleges in Ireland during the years 1900, 1901, 1902, 1903, 1904, 1905, and 1906; how many of those have since been employed in Ireland; how many have come to England; what is the cost of training each teacher; whether he has any official information showing that the exodus of trained teachers from Ireland is due to the rate of salaries paid in Ireland, and more especially to assistant teachers; whether it is proposed to consider the salaries of Irish teachers as a whole, and make them in some way proportionate to the importance of the work they discharge.
    (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Commissioners of National Education inform me that the number of teachers who com-

    Training Colleges.

    1900.

    1901.

    1902.

    1903.

    1904.

    1905.

    1906.

    Marlborough Street (Dublin)

    156

    165

    184

    144

    181

    123

    122

    St. Patrick's (Drumcondra, Dublin)

    103

    94

    99

    90

    103

    74

    61

    Our Lady of Mercy (Blackrock, Dublin)

    92

    76

    92

    73

    92

    76

    126

    Church of Ireland (Dublin)

    60

    51

    71

    66

    72

    59

    63

    De La Salle (Waterford)

    72

    77

    84

    73

    68

    59

    67

    St. Mary's (Belfast)

    nil

    18

    77

    40

    63

    54

    53

    Mary Immaculate (Limerick)

    nil

    nil

    25

    50

    38

    59

    48

    Total

    483

    481

    632

    536

    617

    504

    540

    The Commissioners are unable to say with any degree of accuracy how many of these teachers have since been employed in Ireland. The latest statistics as to the number of teachers who have gone to England is contained in my reply to the Question of the hon. Member for East Cork on 25th June last.†The cost of training of each teacher depends on whether the student is a man or a woman, and whether entered for a one-year's or a two-years' course. Grants for resident King's scholars are as follows:—(a) A fixed grant of £50 for each man in training for one year, and of £100 for each man in training for two years; (b) A fixed grant of £35 for each woman in training for one year, and of £70 for each woman in training for two years; (c) In addition, a bonus of £10 for each man of the one-year's course of training, and of £20 for each man of the two-years course of training, after two years probationary service of a satisfactory character in the actual work of teaching; (d) A bonus of £7 for each woman of the one-year's course of training, and of £14 for each woman of the two-years course of training, after two years probationary
    †See (4) Debates, clix., 625.
    pleted their course of training in the years mentioned are as follows:—
    service of a satisfactory character in the actual work of teaching. In the case of non-resident students the bonus is the only cost to the State. The Commissioners have no official information as to the reasons why trained teachers leave Ireland. The question of improving the salaries of teachers is now under consideration.

    New Year's Day as Holiday in Irish Government Offices.
    MR. DELANY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can explain why New Year's Day was given as a holiday in former years; if it was an irregular holiday, can he say what is meant by an irregular holiday; and whether he is aware that the denial of those privileges is one of the causes of the discontent existing amongst the staff.
    (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) I regret that I have nothing to add to the Answer which I gave the hon. Member on the 14th instant.‡

    Army Motor Reserve—Uniform Contracts.
    MR. FIELD: To ask the Financial Secretary to the War
    ‡ See Col., 832.

    1259
    Office whether he is aware that the supply of uniforms for the newly established Army Motor Reserve Corps is practically limited to one firm in London; will he say whether the War Office mention this firm only in their communications to the officers; whether he is aware that an officer who wished to give an order to a Dublin firm was unable to do so, by reason that the War Office stated that the pattern of uniform in question had not been approved, although the London firms had taken orders for supply of uniforms; and whether he will take measures to insure equal treatment to all tailoring firms who wish to tender.
    (Answered by Mr. Buchanan.) The details of the uniform of the Army Motor Reserve were only settled on the 12th instant, and were communicated to the General Officer Commanding, London District, for the information of the officer commanding, on the following day. No mention of tailors' firms is made in this communication, and individual officers have not been addressed on the subject. The provision of uniform by officers of this body is voluntary, and they are at liberty to obtain them where they think fit.

    Service with the Army and Civil Service Pensions.
    CAPTAIN FABER: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can see his way to recommend that service with the Army shall count towards a qualifying time for Civil Service pension or bonus.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) This subject is at present under consideration.

    New Stables at Tidworth Barracks.
    CAPTAIN FABER: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether new brick stables are to be built or whether the old corrugated ironstabling from Bulford is to be moved and used for cavalry at Tidworth Barracks; whether the old stabling would, if re-erected, be weather proof and water-proof; and also when the new stabling is to be begun, and when finished.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) It is proposed to transfer serviceable hut stabling from Bulford to Tidworth as
    1260
    may be required. No unserviceable hutting would be removed from Bulford. No definite dates can be given at present as regards the beginning and completion of the work.

    Pay of Government Workmen at Weedon.
    MR. GROVE: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the fact that the cost of living is dearer in Weedon than in London, and that the rents of workmen's cottages in Weedon have increased by 2s. to 3s. per week during the last five years, he will reconsider the adjustment of the wages of foremen and artificers employed in the Government works, so as to bring the rate of pay more into accordance with the Resolution passed by the House of Commons on 6th March, 1893.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) This matter is receiving consideration.

    The Commissioner of Woods and Forests
    MR. ALDEN: To ask the Prime Minister whether he will state what are the exact powers over the Crown woodlands exercised by the Commissioners of Woods and Forests and the Board of Agriculture respectively; whether he would consider the advisability of establishing a Board of Forestry for Great Britain under the Board of Agriculture; whether he would also consider the advisability, in view of the need for new industries, of establishing a similar Board in Ireland; and what is the entire amount expended on experimental forestry areas at the present time.
    (Answered by Sir H. Campbell-Bannerman.) The Crown woodlands are managed by the Commissioners of Woods, by whom clearing, thinning, and replanting are carried on as occasion requires. I may add for the information of my hon. friend that three large areas of woodlands have been placed under systematic sylvicultural treatment, the management of one of these having been placed in the hands of a forestry instructor to the Armstrong College of Science at Newcastle, so that practical demonstrations in forestry are available for students. As regards the second part of the Question, I may point out that by sub-sections (2) and (3) of Section 2 of The Board of Agriculture

    1261
    Act, 1889, the Board of Agriculture is entrusted with the promotion of the interests of forestry. The Answer given by the Board in reply to a Question of my hon. friend the Member for Denbighshire West, on 20th June last,†contains information as to the steps taken by the Board of Agriculture in carrying out this important branch of their duties. In Ireland the Department of Agriculture exercises somewhat similar powers, and if my hon. friend will refer to the Answer of my right hon. friend the Chief Secretary, of 23rd November, to a Question of the hon. Member for Wexford South,‡he will find a brief account of the manner in which the Department are discharging their duties. I am afraid that it is impossible at short notice to state exactly what sum is devoted annually by the Commissioners of Woods and Forests to experimental forestry areas, and I am informed that in some cases it would be difficult to say whether a given area may properly be regarded as "experimental" or not.

  QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

    Submarines and Naval Programmes.
    MR. COURTHOPE: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the rapid development of submarines has caused any material alteration in the shipbuilding programmes of this or other countries with regard to the size and number of battleships and cruisers; and whether in order to secure adequate protection to the hulls of war vessels from the attack of submarines, the Admiralty will consider the advisability of offering a substantial reward for the best design offered for this purpose.
    THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. Edmund Robertson, Dundee): So far as the Admiralty are aware, the reply to the first part of the Question is in the negative; and as regards the second part, the Admiralty are fully satisfied with their own design for this purpose.

    Hours of Work in His Majesty's Dockyards.
    MR. BRAMSDON: I bog to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty
    †See (4) Debates, clix., 160.
    ‡See (4) Debates, clxv., 1114.
    1262
    whether the wages of workmen in His Majesty's dockyards are based on the number of hours per week they are actually engaged in work, and calculated on the rate of wages per hour of similar classes of workmen in private yards; whether by this method the workmen receive less wages per week in the dockyards than those in private yards; and whether the concession of a previous Government of the 48-hours week to men in such dockyards is no longer applicable, but the shorter hours are to be worked at a loss to the men.
    MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: The total number of hours worked per week and the hourly rate of wages for similar work in private yards are both important factors in determining the dockyard rates, but they are not the only points taken into consideration. In some cases, the total weekly wages are less than those in the private trade, where the week is five or six hours longer. The introduction of the 48-hours week has in no case resulted in a reduction from the weekly rates previously paid.

    Cost of New Cruisers.
    MR. BELLAIRS: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he can state the total value of the contracts placed in connection with the large cruisers "Indomitable," "Inflexible," and "Invincible," laid down this year in private yards.
    MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: The total value of the main contracts were as follows:—"Inflexible," £1,224,808, "Invincible" £1,253,348 13s. 4d., "Indomitable," £1,248,072 5s. These figures do not include cost of gun mountings or armament, contracts for which were placed separately.
    MR. BELLAIRS: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty why no attempt was made to secure competitive tenders in the case of the three large cruisers "Indomitable," "Inflexible," and "Invincible."
    MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: I have already told the hon. Member, in reply to a previous Question on the 11th December,†that this matter was dealt with by the late Board, and I do not feel
    †See Col. 116–7.

    1263
    in a position to make any statement as to the reasons which may have led to their decision.

    Tradesmen and Tidworth. Barracks.
    MR. RENDALL: I bog to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that many tradesmen have settled at Ludgershall with the object of being better able to cater for the various wants of men in barracks at Tidworth; whether he is aware that whilst brigade passes into the camp have been granted to traders living as far away as Portsmouth and Swindon, the military authorities have refused passes to traders actually living and carrying on business in Ludgershall parish; and whether he will consider the advisability of giving the local rate paying traders preference over strangers, or at least of placing them on equal terms with them; and will he express such a desire to the proper quarters.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. Haldane, Haddington): Traders who live and carry on business in the neighbourhood of Tidworth barracks are invariably granted passes provided that their character is satisfactory and that there is not already a large number of passes issued to others in the same way of business. Preference is always given to local tradesmen.

    Army Clothing Factory, Pimlico.
    MR. T. F. RICHARDS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he received a petition last June from the cutters employed at the Army Clothing Factory at Pimlico, asking for an increase in their rate of wages equal to that paid by private contractors to their employees; and whether he can accede to that request; and, if not, what decision has he come to on the matter.
    MR. HALDANE: No such petition has been received by me. I understand that certain representations were made informally as to the rate of wages of cutters in the Clothing Factory at Pimlico, but nothing definite has yet come before me for my consideration or decision.

    Soldiers in Hospital.
    MR. WATT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if
    1264
    he can now state the percentage for the last twelve months of men in hospital from the cavalry quartered in England, Scotland, and Ireland respectively.
    MR. HALDANE: I would refer my hon. friend to the Answer I gave on this subject yesterday to the hon. and gallant Member for the St. Andrew's Burghs.†

    The Aden Hinterland.
    MR. HART-DAVIES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the British troops are to be withdrawn from Dthala in the Aden Hinterland; whether, if so, the Amir of that place will be left unsupported against Turkish aggression; and whether the Frontier Delimitation Treaty, which assigned Dthala to the British sphere of influence, has been abrogated.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Mr. Morley, Montrose Burghs): My hon. friend has asked me to reply to this Question. I have already stated that the permanent location of troops in the Aden Hinderland has never been sanctioned either by the late or the present Government. The withdrawal of troops from Dthala, now that the delimitation proceedings are completed, is in accordance with the statement of policy made by Lord Lansdowne in the House of Lords on the 30th March, 1903, as to the demarcation, viz., that His Majesty's Government had never desired to interfere with the internal and domestic affairs of the tribes on the British side of the boundary, but had throughout made it plain that they would not assent to the interference of any other power with those affairs. The frontier defined by the Commission and accepted by the Turkish Government, has settled all questions of the boundary between the Turkish dominions and the territory of the Amir of Dthala, and this definition constitutes a firm guarantee against Turkish aggression. The agreement with the Turkish Government has not been in any sense or degree abrogated. I should add that a Political Officer remains for the present at Dthala, and our political supervision will be exercised in such manner as may be necessary for the discharge of our obligations.
    †See Col. 1242.

    Indian Excise Administration
    MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: I bag to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he has received the views of the Government of India upon the Report of the Committee appointed to inquire into the Excise administration; and whether he is now in a position to make a statement upon this subject.
    MR. MORLEY: It has been decided to publish the Report in India without waiting until the Government have reviewed it, and I will lay it on the Table of the House as soon as the necessary copies are received from India.

    Indian Excise Revenue.
    MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been drawn to the statement in the Excise Report of the Central Provinces to the effect that the revenue from country liquor during the year 1905–6 increased by 17 per cent.; whether he is aware that during the same period the Excise Revenue of the Punjabrose by Rs.413,503, the increased consumption in four districts alone amounting to over 98,000 gallons; and whether the Government of India contemplate taking immediate steps to arrest the spread of drinking habits among the people of these provinces.
    Mr. MORLEY: Large changes have recently been made in the excise system of the Central Provinces and the increase in Excise Revenue in 1905–06, which is correctly stated by the hon. Member, is believed to be of a temporary character and in large measure due to the unsettlement caused by the changes. These have the object of increasing the control of the Government over the liquor trade, and it is too early yet to judge the results. The increase in the Punjab both in revenue and in recorded liquor consumption, was caused by an attempt to substitute licit for illicit supplies by the sale of cheaper liquor experimentally in certain areas. A Report on the experiment is, I understand, under consideration in India, and when it reaches me, I will lay it on the Table.

    Royal Scots at Bombay—Religious Services.
    *SIR J. JARDINE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for
    1266
    India whether the Bishop of Bombay has refused licence to the regiment of Royal Scots, now stationed at the Colaba barracks in Bombay, to worship according to the religious solemnities of the Church of Scotland in the Government garrison church at Colaba; whether he can state if the Presbyterian soldiers in that regiment attend in parade form at any other church; what arrangements will be made for them as to churches in the hot months of the year to save them from exposure to the sun; whether the Bishop of Bombay refuses licence to Wesleyan Methodist soldiers, whether Calvinistic or Arminian, for divine service in the said Colaba garrison church; and whether these Methodist soldiers are enabled to march to any other church with their officers in military form.
    MR. MORLEY: As I stated in reply to the hon. Member's Question on 28th May last, † it was arranged that parade services for the Scottish troops should beheld in the garrison church at Colaba during the hot months—from May to October inclusive—while for the rest of the year it was understood that they would attend the Presbyterian Church in the fort at Bombay. So far as I am aware, this arrangement still holds good. As regards the Wesleyan Methodist soldiers, there is, I understand, a Wesleyan Church at Bombay which is attended by the soldiers stationed there. The precise arrangements have not been reported to me, and I will make inquiry as to thorn.
    *SIR J. JARDINEasked the right hon. Gentleman whether, considering the close connection of Scotland with India, the strong religious convictions of Scotsmen and Presbyterians, and the natural feeling of a gallant regiment, he did not think this was a case in which the remedy against prelatic unreason or mistake promised in 1900 by Lord George Hamilton ought to be applied, namely, pressure by the Civil Government.
    MR. MORLEYreplied that he must inquire further into the Question before answering that.
    *MR. J. D. WHITE: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether
    †See (4) Debates, clviii., 64.

    1267
    it is not the fact that the church which is being thus monopolised was built and is being maintained out of public money?
    [No Answer was returned.]

    Native Labour in Natal.
    MR. MOLTENO: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can state what was the number of natives in each of the last five years who rendered compulsory labour to the Public Works Department of Natal, and what relation the wages at the rate of £1 per month and rations bear to the current rate of wages, as complaint has been made by the natives that they are compelled to work for less than half the current rate of wages.
    THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. Churchill, Manchester, N.W.): The numbers of natives employed in Public Works Department of Natal and Zululand were:—1901, 6,708; 1902, 6,403; 1903, 6,175; 1904, 5,677. Total number employed in all departments in 1905 was 5,382. The number employed in Public Works Department is not stated. The wages of £1 per month and rations appears to be in excess of the wages for farm labour. The information at my disposal does not enable me to say what amount of justification there may be in the alleged complaint.

    Unemployment in the West Indies.
    MR. SUMMERBELL: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if his attention bas been called to a resolution passed at a public meeting at Port-of-Spain, in October last, to the effect that, having regard to the sufferings of the middle and lower classes of this island, and the readiness of the West Indians to labour for a reasonable wage, as is evident by their recent departure to the Isthmus of Panama, in view also of the cane-farming industry being presently sufficiently well established in this island, the Trinidad Working Men's Association in public meeting assembled protested against any further appropriation of £70,000 per annum of public money to continue the importation of East Indian indentured immigrants to this Colony to compete with the West Indian labourer, and that such practice
    1268
    has tended not only to add to the Colony's commercial depression in its contribution to the impoverishment of the Colony and to be an obstacle to the relief of taxation, but was a standing menace to public peace and property in the island; and, if so, whether he is prepared to give instructions for an inquiry into the whole of the circumstances complained of to be held, and a Report presented thereon.
    MR. CHURCHILL: The attention of the Secretary of State has been drawn to the resolution in question, but he cannot admit that it accurately sets out the facts relating to East Indian immigration. It is not the case that £70,000 of public money are annually applied to the introduction of immigrants. The East Indian immigrants (the majority of whom remain in the Colony after serving their indenture) and their descendants form a large and valuable element in the population of Trinidad; they contribute most materially to the revenue of the Colony and are in no way a menace to public peace and property. The Secretary of State is informed by the Governor that such distress as now exists in Trinidad is not among the agricultural labourers, and is not, therefore, the result of East India immigration. Lord Elgin sees no reason for ordering an inquiry to be held into the matter. The proposals which have been submitted by the Governor with a view to mitigating such distress as exists have been approved.

    Ceylon Goverment Railway—Employees' Grievances.
    MR. HUDSON: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to the dissatisfaction which exists amongst the whole of the grades of the service employed in the manipulation of the traffic on the Ceylon Government Railway; whether he is aware that the men have been for a period of two years seeking an interview with the responsible officials with a view to finding a remedy for their alleged grievances; and whether he can give to these British subjects the right of representation through their union to settle grievances which arise in connection with their employment.
    MR. CHURCHILL: The Secretary of State received a communication

    1269
    last month on behalf of the locomotive engine drivers employed on the Ceylon Government Railway. As it was not sent through the Colonial Government in accordance with the standing rule it was sent out to the Governor with a request for a full and early report upon the complaints contained in it. There has not yet been time for an answer, but the matter will not be overlooked. No complaints have been received at the Colonial Office on behalf of other grades of Ceylon railway employees.
    MR. HUDSON: Will the hon. Gentleman answer the last part of the Question as to the right of the representation?
    MR. CHURCHILL: That is a large question of policy of which I ought to have notice. I certainly feel that all employees on railroads should have the right of representation. Perhaps the hon. Member will see me privately.
    MR. HUDSON: I shall be happy to do so.

    Bagdad Railway.
    MR. WEDGWOOD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if any steps have been taken to secure British control over the section of the proposed Bagdad Railway from Killis to Bagdad, as well as over the section Bagdad to Koweit.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir Edward Grey, Northumberland, Berwick): The Answer is in the negative.
    *MR. REES: Is there any foundation for the assumption in the last sentence of the Question that there is any British control over the Bagdad and Koweit section?
    SIR EDWARD GREY: No, Sir; that is a German and not a British section.

    Turco-Persian Frontier Zone
    MR. BOWLES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will cause to be placed in the Library of this House a copy of the identic map of the Turco-Persian frontier zone delivered in 1869 and 1870 by the English and Russian Governments to Ottoman and Persian
    1270
    Governments respectively, together with a copy of any correspondence or documents necessary to elucidate the circumstances under which it was prepared, and the purposes it was designed to serve.
    SIR EDWARD GREY: This subject is now under negotiation between the Powers concerned. In these circumstances it would not be desirable to publish maps and papers, which would no doubt be of historical interest, but which relate to a frontier in which British territory is not concerned.

    Whisky Transactions with the United States.
    MR. YOUNGER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been directed to the rules and regulations for the enforcement of the Food and Drugs Act which have been issued by the United States Department of Agriculture and are to come into force on 1st January next, and to the effect such enforcement may have upon the transactions which take place in whisky between this country and the United States owing to the want of any recognised standard in this country; and whether he can do anything to secure a suspension of such rules until the question now sub judice is decided.
    SIR EDWARD GREY: The Answer to the first part of the hon. Member's Question is in the affirmative. His Majesty's Ambassador at Washington has been instructed to furnish a Report on the matter. On receipt of this Report, His Majesty's Government will consider what action, if any, they can take in the interests of British trade.

    Mining Royalties.
    MR. MARKHAM: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has sufficient information to form an opinion if mining royalties and way leaves are fit subjects for taxation, and the annual income derived by the owners there from; whether, seeing these owners contribute nothing towards local taxation, and only pay income-tax on minerals actually wrought, and nothing on the capital value of unworked minerals, and that some royalty owners refuse, owing to increasing value, to work or let their

    1271
    minerals, he will consider the desirability of taxing this unearned wealth.
    MR. HAROLD COXasked whether the right hon. Gentleman's attention had been called to the Report of the Royal Commission, signed by the hon. Member for Rhondda and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Morpeth, in which it was stated that such a system of royalties had not interfered with the general development of the mineral resources of the United Kingdom.
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. ASQUITH, Fifeshire, E.): Yes, Sir, I am familiar with that Report. In my opinion all the necessary information for forming an opinion on this matter is available. I cannot at present make any statement as to the future, except that suggestions for new sources of revenue are always welcome to a Chancellor of the Exchequer.
    MR. MARKHAM: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether, seeing the burden placed on the coal, iron, steel, and allied trades due to way leaves and royalties, he will, in view of the millions of persons dependent on these trades, consider the desirability of appointing a Royal Commission to report on the effect of these burdens on trade in relation to wages and foreign competition, and what taxation could be derived from these sources, seeing that no taxation is paid by mineral owners for unworked minerals, either for imperial or local purposes, though their value is continually increasing.
    THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN, Stirling Burghs): As my hon. friend may be aware, a very exhaustive inquiry was recently made into the economic operation of the royalty system. The Royal Commission which undertook the inquiry reported in 1893, and, in view of the mass of information collected by it, I doubt if it is necessary or advisable to institute another inquiry.
    *MR. O'GRADY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Commission of 1893 reported that in royalties and way leaves no less than £4,000,000 annually of blackmail was
    1272
    levied on the coal industry alone of this country?
    MR. MARKHAM: And is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this Report does not deal with way leaves?
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANsaid he believed the Chancellor of the Exchequer considered that he had all the information that he desired on this subject.
    MR. KEIR HARDIEasked the right hon. Gentleman whether he was aware that, according to an ancient law of Scotland, these mineral royalties were the property of the State, and whether he would take steps to have that law enforced.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I have no doubt that if it is an old Scots law it is probably a very good law.

    Inspection of Docks and Wharves.
    *MR. O'GRADY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether docks, wharves, and quays are registered for the purposes of inspection with reference to safety, and, if so, what means are employed for inspection; whether in view of the fact that the number of docks, wharves, and quays subject to factory inspection under Section 79 of Factory Act are 3,067, and the number of inspectors' visits totalled 2,147 only annually, steps will be taken to ensure an annual minimum number of visits to each place registered under the regulations; whether he will give authority to inspectors and staffto tabulate in classified form accidents aboard ship, quay, shed, or warehouse; whether gears and plants are dealt with by regulations and inspected, and, if so, what steps are taken to ensure periodical inspection; and whether inspectors are experienced men in ship cargo gearing and plant for discharging and loading purposes.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. GLADSTONE, Leeds, W.): Yes, docks, wharves, and quays are registered, and are inspected regularly, as part of their general work, by the factory staff. The total number of visits paid to docks other than docks forming part of factories or workshops in 1905 was 4,787, not 2,147 as

    1273
    stated in the Question. Many of those unvisited in the course of the year would be small canal wharves. As I have stated more than once this session, steps have been taken by me to strengthen the staff with a view to improving still further the inspection at docks. Arrangements have already been made to classify in more detail the accidents at docks. Gear and plant are dealt with by the Home Office regulations which are enforced by the inspectors. The testing and periodical examination of chains and other gear is provided for by the regulations. Special inspectors are not appointed for docks, but the staff is carefully selected with regard to the nature of the duties they will be called upon to perform.
    *MR. O'GEADY: May I point out that the figures quoted in the Question are those given by the right hon. Gentleman himself earlier in the session as the probable number of visits, but those did not include the canal wharves, a totally different thing.
    MR. GLADSTONE: I will inquire into that.
    MR. J. WARD: Does the Answer apply to wharves in course of construction, whore, of course, dangerous machinery is employed?
    MR. GLADSTONE: I think so; if not, I will let the hon. Member know.

    Licensing Acts.
    MR. BRAMSDON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of the fact that there are about forty Licensing Acts now in force, commencing from the year 1660, affecting the sale or control of intoxicating liquors, many of which contain the perplexing system of legislation by reference, and of the number of important judicial decisions thereon, and in view of the difficulty caused thereby in their construction and administration, he will promise that the new Bill to be introduced next year upon this subject shall be one of consolidation.
    MR. GLADSTONE: I am fully alive to the importance of consolidating the Licensing Laws, and I have been considering it for some time past. But I
    1274
    cannot at present make any statement as to next year's legislation.

    Labour Sweating—Colonial Remedies.
    *SIR CHARLES DILKE (Gloucestershire, Forest of Dean): I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of recent inquiries into the sweating system, he proposes to take steps to obtain reports on the remedies which have been applied by the legislation of Colonial States, such as the Wages Board Acts of Victoria.
    MR. T. L. CORBETT: Before that Question is answered may I ask if the right hon. Gentleman will also make inquiry as to the alleged sweating of women and young girls employed by religious institutions expelled from France, and now domiciled in England?
    MR. GLADSTONE: Yes, Sir. In view of the importance of this subject and the interest of the measures taken in several of the Australasian States to deal with the evils of the sweating system, I propose sending a Commissioner to investigate and report upon the effects of the Wages Board and Compulsory Arbitration Acts in force in Australia and New Zealand. The opportunity will be taken of obtaining information at the same time on the results of the legislation to secure the earlier closing of shops which has been adopted in certain of the Australasian States. In answer to the supplementary Question, I am afraid that I cannot add anything to Answers I have already given, although I must say that it seems to me it is as far a cry to Australasia as the subject of this Question is apart from that on the Paper.
    MR. T. L. CORBETT: But may I—
    MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The Question is not relevant.

    Civil Rights of Police Officers.
    MR. O'GRADY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the conditions of service in the police force are such as to prevent police officers from using their civil rights in all respects; whether the conditions preclude a member of the force from writing to the public Press commenting upon matters connected

    1275
    with the terms of service; and, if so, will he issue an order instructing that there shall be do undue restraint upon police officers in these matters.
    MR. GLADSTONE: The members of the Metropolitan Police, like other public officers, are necessarily subject to certain restrictions in the exercise of their civil rights. They cannot, for instance, sit in this House or on county or borough councils, nor can they act as directors of companies. They are also prohibited from communicating with newspapers on police matters without the consent of the Commissioner. The last is a restriction similar to that imposed on all Civil servants, and is clearly necessary in the public interest. I have no reason to think that any undue restriction is imposed.

    Boston Pilots' Charges.
    MR. SUMMERBELL: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he contemplates granting an Order in Council to the Boston Pilot Trust for the purpose of reducing the regular pilotage charges of the Boston pilots; and, if so, will he permit the Pilots' Association to lay their views before him before any definite action is taken.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. Lloyd-George, Carnarvon Boroughs): As stated in my reply to a Question by the hon. Member for Limerick on the 14th November,†the Boston Pilot Commissioners have applied for an Order in Council to confirm a new by-law made by them dealing with the pilotage rates at Boston. Public notice of the application has only within the last few days been given by advertisement, and I am not in a position at present to say whether the by-law is one which it is desirable to submit to His Majesty in Council for confirmation by Order in Council. I have already received the views of the United Kingdom Pilots' Association by letter, and should they wish to discuss the matter with me personally, I shall be happy to meet them.

    Railway Commissioners' Salaries.
    MR. STAVELEY-HILL: I beg to ask the Presi-
    †See (4) Debates, clxiv., 1493–4.
    1276
    dent of the Board of Trade whether the Commissioners of railways and canals are paid at the rate of £100 for each day on which they sit; and whether he will state on how many days they sit in the course of a year.
    MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: Each of the two appointed Railway and Canal Commissioners receive a fixed salary of £3,000 a year. The average number of days in the year on which the Court of the Railway and Canal Commission has held public sittings has been about thirty-two. The Commissioners also hold private sittings, of which there is no record. I may also refer the hon. Member to the Answer given by my right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the 28th ultimo, to the effect that the newly-appointed Commissioner is to give his whole time to the public service, and will be available for public work generally in addition to his ordinary duties as a member of the Commission.

    Midland Railway Employees' Long Hours.
    MR. HUDSON: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the long hours being worked by the drivers and firemen at the Midland Railway locomotive depot, Leeds; whether he is aware that these men are frequently working thirteen, fourteen, and fifteen hours per day because of an inadequate relief staff; and whether he will institute an inquiry into the matter with a view to securing a reduction of these long hours.
    MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: Representations have been received in regard to the hours of work of the men at this depot, and inquiry is being made.

    Swansea Distress Committee
    MR. KEIR HARDIE: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his Department on 12th October refused to make a grant to the Swansea Distress Committee, and informed that body that if it anticipated that it would be requisite to provide temporary work during the forthcoming winter, it must rely upon voluntary contributions for meeting the cost, and in that case every effort should be made by means of public appeals and

    1277
    otherwise to obtain the contributions required; and, if so, whether, with a view to encourage local contributions, he is now prepared to make a grant to Swansea and other distress committees similarly circumstanced.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. John Burns, Battersea): The first part of the Question appears to refer to a circular which I sent to some of the distress committees, including that for Swansea, on the 12th October last, in which I stated that on the information before me I did not propose to make any payment to them out of the grant. I have not since received any communication from the Swansea Distress Committee. The object of the grant is not that a payment should be made out of it to every distress committee, but to enable this to be done in those localities in which the need for assistance in providing or contributing to the provision of temporary work is of a clearly exceptional character. It is only where this is the case that I am prepared to consider an application for a share of the grant.
    MR. KEIR HARDIE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in Swansea there are 800 unemployed men on the register, that there are no local funds to deal with them, and that unless a grant is made nothing can be done for these destitute workmen?
    MR. JOHN BURNS: I shall be pleased of course to receive any application from the Swansea Distress Committee, and it should not only embody the number of unemployed on the register, but indicate any useful works of public utility upon which they could be employed. I can assure the hon. Member the letter will be promptly answered.
    MR. J. WARD: Has the right hon. Gentleman received any complaint from the Local Distress Committee as to the action of a contractor in the locality in advertising for men when he has no work to give them, thereby increasing the distress there?
    MR. JOHN BURNS: I am sorry to hear that any contractor should have
    1278
    done that. I have received no communication on the subject.

    Work of Distress Committees
    MR. CLYNES: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he has suggested certain lines for Distress Committees to follow in respect to finding employment, and made the carrying out of particular schemes a condition of granting a share of the.£200,000; whether his Department has taken any action in cases where local authorities have not put the Unemployed Act into operation; whether he is aware of the diminished voluntary subscriptions in relief of distress due to unemployment; and whether he contemplates a more speedy distribution of the Government grant, the greater part of which is still unused.
    MR. JOHN BURNS: I issued a circular to some of the Distress Committees stating the particulars which they should furnish if they desired to apply for assistance from the Grant. One of the particulars asked for was a statement of the work to be provided. The Unemployed Workmen Act required that distress committees should be appointed in certain circumstances, and appointments have been made in all such cases. I am aware that in some instances voluntary subscriptions have diminished. All applications for assistance from the Grant are dealt with as speedily as possible, and where I am satisfied that a case for assistance has been made out, a payment is made at once. We are, however, at present only in the early part of the winter, and it is important that a due amount of the Grant should be kept in hand to meet any claims that may arise during the remainder of it.

    Religious Instruction Regulations.
    MR. COURTHOPE: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether the syllabus of religious instruction issued by the Board of Education provides for the daily use of the Lord's Prayer; and whether in the provided schools the Lord's Prayer is usually said daily.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Mr. Birrell, Bristol, N.): The functions of the Board of

    1279
    Education are certainly very varied, but they do not include, I am glad to say, any duty or any power to issue any syllabus of religious instruction, this being left to the local education authority in provided schools and to the foundation managers, acting under trust, in voluntary schools. In reply to the concluding paragraph, I can only say that I have no information beyond that contained in the Parliamentary Return recently issued; but I should imagine the reply is in the affirmative.

    Pelden Postal Arrangements.
    MR. A. L. LEVER: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether, having regard to the fact that there is not a post office with a money order or savings bank department within five miles of Pelden, Essex, he will arrange to add such to the existing post office in that village.
    THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. Sydney Buxton, Tower Hamlets, Poplar): A guarantee has been given for the transaction of Money Order and Savingss Bank business at the Pelden Sub-Office, and the necessary arrangements are being made.

    Mount Pleasant Supernumeraries.
    MR. O'GRADY: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if he is aware that a large number of Christmas supernumeraries are being employed at Mount Pleasant and other sorting offices on night attendance, viz., 12 midnight to 8 a.m., for a wage of £1 per week; and whether, seeing that these men are paid less than sixpence per hour for all night work, he will undertake to see that they receive treatment at least equal to that given for a similar class of labour by the London County Council and other municipal bodies.
    MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: I will look into the matter.

    House of Commons Post Office.
    MR. BRIGG: I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works if in any changes he may make in the post office of the House he will so arrange that receptacles may be provided for such Members as desire them in which their letters may be
    1280
    placed and that such receptacles may be placed in such a position that the Members may see them from the lobby, so as to save the time of the officials in sorting over a large number of letters when a Member asks if there are any letters for him.
    MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: As my hon. friend is aware, with the co-operation of the First Commissioner of Works, I have made considerable improvements in the postal arrangements of the House of Commons for the convenience of Members, both in regard to greater counter space, and also in regard to a larger and more convenient number of pigeon holes for their letters, and in other ways. There is no available space, apart from other difficulties, in which to carry out the suggestion made by my hon. friend.

    Gooseberry Mildew.
    MR. ROWLANDS: I beg to ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether the Board of Agriculture has received any Reports that the instruction sent out by the Board, with a view to the prevention of gooseberry disease, have had a good effect, or whether it is deemed necessary for more definite action to be taken.
    SIR EDWARD STRACHEY: It is too soon to say whether the recommendations issued by the Board will prove sufficient to prevent the introduction or spread of the disease. The position is being carefully watched, and if it should appear that further powers are necessary to deal with the disease, the Board will not hesitate to ask for them.

    Boat Cove, Glen, County Kerry.
    MR. BOLANLD: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Congested Districts Board have endeavoured to complete the toe-end of the slip at Boat Cove, Glen, county Kerry, by using, against expert local advice, creosoted balk instead of concrete, which they had used for the rest of the slip; that, having found that the balks would not stand the high tides and gales, they have now taken the work to pieces; and whether, in view of the

    1281
    fact that the fishermen of the neighbouring fishing stations have been enabled to secure catches of from 20,000 to 30,000mackerel weekly, whilst the Boat Cove fishermen have only secured about 1,600, owing to the want of proper landing facilities, the Congested Districts Board will now use concrete for the completion of this slip.
    THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. Bryce, Aberdeen, S.): I am informed that the work in question can only be executed at low spring tides. The work had been satisfactorily advanced at the recent low spring tides when an exceptionally severe gale caused the demolition of the work before the concrete part of it had time to set. The method of construction employed is, in the opinion of the Board's engineer, the only possible one. Mass concrete such as was used for the original structure would not be suitable for the extension to deeper water. No expert advice, local or otherwise, was tendered to the Board. The work will be completed, weather permitting, next spring. The extension will have the effect of allowing fishermen to haul up their boats from half-an-hour to an hour sooner than at present, in the case of low tides. In the Board's opinion, it is quite impossible that its presence or absence can materially affect the result of the fishing. It will be an occasional convenience, but nothing more.

    Darcy Hillard Estate, Limerick.
    MR. LUNDON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that, on the Darcy Hilliard estate, in Dunkip, Manister, Croom union, county Limerick, preparations are being made by the lady who owns the estate and by the agent to let out the untenanted lands to the tenants as it may best suit their own views; and will he and the Estates Commissioners, through their inspector, put themselves in communication with the owners, so as to acquire the untenanted lands in the interest of the labourers and the poorer tenants of the estate.
    MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners inform me that they are considering the question of purchasing the Dunkip portion of the estate referred to, and, with a view of making an offer for purchase, have directed their inspector to
    1282
    furnish a Report upon the property. If the Commissioners should acquire the property they will, when distributing the untenanted lands, pay due regard to the claims of persons in the locality.

    Dunkip Untenanted Lands.
    MR. LUNDON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, as President of the Local Government Board, why the Local Government Board inspector, Mr. Barnewall Crofton, refused to give a house and allotment on the untenanted lands of Dunkip, in the last scheme of the Croom District Council under the Labourers Act, to Patrick Maguire, Abbeyville electoral division, considering that this man has no claim to the house in which he and his mother live, with no other alternative to getting the house but emigration to America.
    MR. BRYCE: The Local Government Board's inspector found that there was no necessity for the cottage applied for on behalf of Patrick Maguire. The house in which Maguire has been living for the past seven years was not medically condemned as unfit for human habitation, and no complaint as to its unfitness was made. No suggestion was made at the inquiry that the applicant would have to emigrate if he should not obtain the cottage applied for; on the contrary, the applicant gave evidence that there was plenty of work for him in the locality, and that his mother also obtained employment.
    MR. LUNDON: The man has had to get the loan of a house from a charitable lady. He could get no other although he had work in the locality.

    Official Appointments in Ireland.
    MR. BRIGG: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will authorise, as far as possible, the employment of natives of Ireland in official positions in that country instead of strangers.
    MR. BRYCE: I am quite in sympathy with my hon. friend's evident desire that Irishmen should have full opportunities of finding a career in their own country. But if, for example, a Yorkshire man should be found to be the most fitting candidate for a certain post in Ireland,

    1283
    my hon. friend would scarcely say that he should be debarred because of his place of birth. My hon. friend will agree with me in thinking that it would be a great misfortune for England were she not to receive the benefit of the services of Irishmen and Scotsmen.

    Drumboe Evicted Tenant.
    MR. McVEIGH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the attention of the Estates Commissioners has been called to the case of Denis Ward, who claimed through John Ward, deceased, who was evicted from his holding on the estate of Lady Alice Hayes, Drumboe, near Stranorlar, county Donegal, on 19th January, 1891; and, if so, whether he will take steps to have an inspector sent down immediately to inquire into the matter.
    MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have received the application in question and have referred it to their inspector in county Donegal for inquiry and report. The inspector will doubtless inquire into the matter when he reaches the district in which the holding is situate. It would obviously greatly impede the inspector in making his inquiries into the numerous cases referred to him if he were sent hither and thither to inquire specially into particular cases.

    Irish Assistant School Teachers.
    MR. FFRENCH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland what is the average salary of assistant teachers in England, Scotland, and Ireland; what is the number of assistants in Irish schools; what is the percentage of assistants in England, Scotland, and Ireland who have obtained a teacher's certificate; and whether any steps can be taken to increase the salary given to the Irish assistant teacher.
    MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg also to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether any steps are being taken to improve the position of the assistant teacher in Irish national schools; whether he is aware that, owing to the salaries given and the poor prospects of promotion, the best men are leaving the service, to
    1284
    the detriment of education, and that the salary given in Ireland is little more than half what it is in Scotland; and whether steps will be taken to give assistant teachers of ten years efficient service second-grade salary.
    MR. EDWARD BARRY: May I also ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether assistant teachers in Ireland, though serving the same apprenticeship and passing the same examination as principal teachers, can never go higher than third grade either in salary or pension, no matter how long or efficient their service may be; whether he is aware that the maximum salary for men is about £80 per annum, and the average about £63; and whether steps will be taken to place on the Estimates of next year such a sum as will give second-grade salary to all assistants of ten years efficient service.
    MR. BRYCE: The Commissioners of National Education inform me that the average salaries (omitting fractions) of assistant masters and mistresses, respectively, are:—In England, £112 and £80; in Scotland, £120 and £73; and in Ireland £73 and £58. As I have said in reply to previous Questions, the Commissioners are of opinion that the larger salaries in Great Britain are due to the greater amount of local aid given, and to the fact that the schools are generally larger than in Ireland. On 31st December, 1905, there were 4,338 assistant teachers in Irish national schools, viz., 1,219 men, and 3,119 women. The Commissioners have no information as to teachers' certificates in England and Scotland. In Ireland, all assistant teachers have been trained in training colleges, or have passed the prescribed examinations, or are University graduates. The Commissioners are aware that there is a decrease in the number of male candidates for entrance to training colleges, but they have no statistics to show that the best teachers are leaving the service. Under the Commissioners' rules, assistant teachers appointed since 1st April, 1900, are ineligible for promotion beyond the third grade, save in exceptional circumstances. The maximum salary of men assistants is £77; but in addition, assistants receive residual capitation grants, as well as bonuses under the

    1285
    Act of 1892, The Commissioners do not propose to give assistants of ten years service second grade salary. They have, however, submitted proposals which would have the effect of improving the position of assistant teachers, and these are now under consideration.

    The Late Major Healy's Folkscourt Estate.
    MR. MEAGHER: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will inquire if negotiations for the purchase of a portion of the estate of the late Major Healy, Folkscourt, county Kilkenny, have been entered into; if he is aware that, while a portion of the tenants have been induced to purchase at the price demanded by threats of legal proceedings for rent and arrears, another portion whose holdings are interspersed through the estate are not allowed to purchase at any price; will he inquire why, while three-fourths of the tenants in the village of Johnstown on the said estate are allowed to purchase, the other quarter are not allowed; that those who hold under middle landlords, who are willing to accept reasonable compensation, are also debarred from doing so; and will he see that an investigation into all the circumstances stated will be held, and that no sale is sanctioned until all the tenants are given an opportunity of purchase.
    MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have no knowledge of the facts alleged in the Question. Portion of the estate of Major Healy has already been sold to the tenants, and the Commissioners have no information as to any negotiations for the sale of the remainder which may be in progress. If full particulars should be furnished to them they will have the matter inquired into.

    Wicklow Evicted Tenants.
    MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state the number of evicted tenants in the county of Wicklow (West Division) on 1st January, 1904; how many of them have applied to the Estates Commissioners for restoration to their former holdings; how many of them have been restored to their holdings; and whether
    1286
    any of them have been provided with farms on untenanted land.
    MR. BEYCE: The Estates Commissioners inform me that their records are not kept by Parliamentary divisions, but by counties. The Commissioners have no information as to the number of evicted tenants in county Wicklow, but they have received applications from seventy-eight persons seeking reinstatement as evicted tenants in that county. Up to the present, four applicants have been restored to their former holdings, but none have been provided with holdings elsewhere.
    MR. JOHN REDMOND: Will the right hon. Gentleman be able before the House rises to give any further information as to the action of the Estates Commissioners in regard to the reinstatement of evicted tenants?
    MR. BRYCE: I am afraid it will not be possible for me to do so. I saw one of the Commissioners the other day and he told me the work was proceeding rapidly, but he was afraid it would not be possible to go into details.
    MR. JOHN REDMOND: Has the progress been considerably accelerated since the question was last before the House?
    MR. BRYCE: Oh yes; we have more inspectors at work.

    Hugh Byrne's Claim.
    MR. McVEIGH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the attention of the Estates Commissioners has been called to the claim of Hugh Byrne, of Cavan Lower, to a portion of land said to be wrongly in occupation of Edward Bogan, on the estate of Miss Stewart, near Killygordan, county Donegal, which estate is now sold to the tenants; and whether he will direct that an inspector be sent down to inquire fully into the claim of Hugh Byrne before the sale of the estate is completed.
    MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have received from Hugh Byrne an application for reinstatement, and have referred it to their inspector for inquiry and report.

    Bruff Evicted Tenants.
    MR. LUNDON: I bog to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that, when Colonel O'Grady, of Kilballyowen, Bruff, county Limerick, was arranging for the reinstatement of his evicted tenants through the medium of the Land Purchase Commission, who purchased in the interest of the tenants some four years ago, the representatives of the late John P. Carroll, of Ballyvranna, were deprived of the greater part of his farm; and will he see that the Estates Commissioners through their inspector will open communications with Colonel O'Grady for the restoration of the farm to the rightful owner.
    MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have no knowledge of the facts alleged in the Question, and have received no application for reinstatement from the representatives of John P. Carroll.

    Bantry Fair Rent Appeals.
    MR. GILHOOLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Sub-Commissioner McElligott who has recently heard land cases to have fair rents fixed at Bantry, Castletown, Berehaven, is the gentleman whose judicial conduct in Longford gave such dissatisfaction as to have his removal called for; and whether, seeing that he owes his original appointment to the Earl of Kenmare, and that the Earl of Kenmare has a large estate, convenient to the sphere of Mr, McElligott's duties, he will suggest his removal from that district.
    MR. BRYCE: Mr. McElligott was originally appointed by the Lord-Lieutenant as an Assistant Land Commissioner so far back as 1896, and he has since been continuously so employed. The Land Commission inform me that they are not aware that Mr. McElligott's work has caused dissatisfaction, though, of course, it is not unusual for both the landlord and the tenant to be dissatisfied with the rent fixed, the one being of opinion that it is too low and the other that it is too high. The Land Commission have no information as to the circumstances in which Mr. McElligott; was originally appointed, and do not
    1288
    believe that any such circumstance as is alleged in the Question would in any way influence him in the performance of his duties.
    MR. JOHN REDMOND: In view of the grave complaints made against this official from various parts of Ireland will the right hon. Gentleman seriously consider the advisability of reappointing him?
    MR. BRYCEsaid he was not aware that there were complaints of a general character. There were individual cases, no doubt, in which people were dissatisfied. The whole subject of the appointment of these Commissioners would shortly have to be considered.

    Killucan Postmastership.
    MR. DELANY: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if he will issue a Return giving particulars of the services, qualifications, and records of the sorting clerks and telegraphists who applied for the position of postmaster of Killucan, to which he has recently appointed a messenger in the secretary's office in Dublin; and whether, seeing that the rank of messenger is inferior to that of sorting clerk and telegraphist, he will state what opportunity a man of this rank has to qualify himself for the duties of postmaster.
    MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: The messenger whom I appointed to be postmaster of Killucan was formerly employed in the parcel office, and had a good knowledge of sorting and parcel work. He had also acquired a knowledge of telegraphy in his own time and at his own expense. All the applications were carefully considered, and I am not prepared to give the Return suggested.

    Ireland and the American Mildew and Black Currant Mite.
    MR. HALPIN: I beg to ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether his attention has been called to reports that American blight or mildew and black, currant mite were imported into England by plants from Ireland; whether he is aware that the disease was imported from England into Clare by the Department of

    1289
    Agriculture sending gooseberry and black currant plants that were full of mildew or blight and mite to farmers who planted fruit trees under the Department scheme, as farmers who received them can testify; and whether he will instruct the Department to have an export to examine small fruit plants before importing them into Ireland from English nurseries in future, and arrange that the same export shall examine apple trees, so as not to allow cancerated and stunted trees being imported into Clare like those sent there three years ago.
    SIR EDWARD STRACHEY: So far as the Board are aware there is no evidence which suggests that the diseases referred to in the hon. Member's Question were imported either into Ireland from England or into England from Ireland, but in any case the institution of precautionary measures against the introduction of disease into Ireland is a matter that would fall to be dealt with by the Irish Department of Agriculture.
    MR. HALPIN: I am aware of cases in which it has been imported into Clare.

    Cavalry for Scotland.
    MR. WATT: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of allaying the agitation in Scotland, he will take into consideration the desirability of placing on the Estimates for next year an instalment of the sum stated to be necessary by the Secretary for War for the housing of two cavalry regiments in Scotland.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: No undertaking can be given as to next year's Estimates. My right hon. friend has not before him the materials for a decision.

    Standing Orders.
    MR. WHITLEY: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if he can give an opportunity, before the session closes, for the discussion of the proposed new Standing Order which appears on the Paper in the name of the Member for Halifax.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Either my friend who puts the Question or the other friend who has the notice on
    1290
    the Paper must be of a very sanguine disposition. I am afraid no opportunity can be found this session.
    MR. WHITLEY: Would to-morrow or Thursday not be available for the purpose?
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I think in the present exhausted state of Members of Parliament, it would be undesirable to commence consideration of this large subject.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  SIR A. ACLAND-HOOD: May I ask what the business will be to-morrow?
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANsaid to-morrow the first business would be the Lords' Amendments to the Town Tenants (Ireland) Bill, and afterwards any other Lords' Amendments that were available. They would also proceed with the Public Trustees Bill, if it was not finished to-day.
  MR. KEIR HARDIEasked whether the day for the Army discussion had now been definitely abandoned. If so, could not the Procedure Rules be further taken?
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I think so; those who asked for the Army debate do not want it. As to the Report on House of Commons procedure, that is too largo a question to be revived in the last days of the session.

  NEW BILL.
    POLICE SUPERANNUATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
    "To amend the Police (Scotland) Act, 1890," presented by Mr. M'Crae; supported by Sir Lewis M'Ivor, Mr. Cameron Corbett, Mr. Crombie, Mr. Barnes, Mr. Price, and Mr. Dundas White; to be read a Second Time upon Thursday, and to be printed. [Bill 376.]

    RADIO-TELEGRAPHIC CONVENTION.
    SIR EDWARD SASSOONin moving, "That, in view of the experimental and undeveloped condition of

    1291
    radio-telegraphy, this House regards with apprehension any engagements hampering the complete freedom of action of the State, and asks His Majesty's Government to grant a Select Committee to inquire into the proposals embodied in the Berlin Convention previous to ratification," said he felt convinced that His Majesty's Government were fully alive to the far-reaching potentialities of wireless telegraphy, and that the House as a whole was deeply grateful to the Prime Minister for affording an opportunity of discussing the matter at a time of political stress. The Motion spoke for itself. Although the Papers relating to the subject had not been in the hands of Members for long, he thought that those who had followed the course of the discussion in Berlin must have found it comparatively easy to assimilate the literature, to penetrate the true inwardness of that extraordinary document, and to disentangle the main and salient principle at issue. That principle was no less than the maintenance of our wireless system entirely unhampered by engagements with foreign nations, at any rate until such time as fresh developments and further knowledge might justify His Majesty's Government in adopting a forward policy. In that broad and general proposition he thought he had the cordial acquiescence of hon. Gentlemen in every part of the House. Before he concluded his arguments he hoped to convince the House that this country had played second fiddle to Germany and to her automaton voters at the Conference. The special representative of an eminent journal in this country, devoted to the views of hon. Gentlemen opposite—the Daily Chronicle—who had special opportunities of gauging the pulse and feelings of members of the Conference in Berlin, wrote to that paper—
    "As far as important business is concerned, with the exception of the British delegates themselves, the Conference is of opinion that Germany has gained all along the line."
    In bringing forward this subject he was not in any way actuated by Party motives. The interests at stake were far too precious to permit of Party calculations, sordid and squalid as they would be in this connection, being brought into play. Neither had he any ulterior motive in bringing forward the Motion, because he knew nothing of the internal economy of wire-
    1292
    less telegraphy nor of its constituent elements, nor had he the remotest personal interest in any shape or form in the future prosperity of the system in use by us. His right hon. friend and he, together with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Forest of Dean, had before now stood in the breach against the unfair treatment meted out to the public and the Press by cable companies, and he therefore hoped the House would acquit him of any leanings towards monopolists; on the contrary, he had always advocated that no contracts for any lengthy period should be entered into with the British organisation, so that the hands of the State should be entirely unhampered to revise those contracts, or, if necessary, to acquire the undertaking in the public interest. They on that side of the House did not question either the soundness or the wisdom of the policy of sending our delegates to Berlin, for he believed the late Government were themselves inclined to accept the invitation from Berlin. His contention was that delegates having been sent to Berlin and the Conference having concluded its labours, it was of the utmost consequence that no agreement tying the hands of the State, indeed of the Empire—for, be it remembered, there was not a single representative of the Colonies at theConference—no instrument involving even the remotest risk to our delicately organised wireless system, or operating in restraint of the entire freedom of our maritime system, should be sanctioned unless and until Parliament, in the plenitude of its judgment, had had full and ample opportunity of addressing itself to and pronouncing upon the main bearings of the problem. That was the whole question in a nutshell. He did not propose to enter into the scientific aspects of the question for the simple reason that he was wholly ignorant of the technicalities with which it bristled. But there was the business aspect and the non-technical side—the principle of working and the method of administration—which was most important. By common admission this country possessed the most efficient and reliable system of wireless telegraphy extant. The department over which his right hon. friend presided for many years declined to enter into a contract with the organisation which now worked the wireless telegraphy service in this

    1293
    country. The Admiralty, after still greater deliberation, threw their ægis over that association. How it was that the Admiralty delegates in Berlin deviated from that attitude after having entered into such an arrangement seemed to him wholly inexplicable. Again Lloyds had entered into a fourteen years agreement, and Canada and Newfoundland had both signed contracts, after a great deal of circumspection, to accept the service of our present system. His first contention was, therefore, that having the most efficient and most reliable system we ought not, in an outburst of altruistic benevolence, to deprive ourselves of that unquestionable initial advantage. If the House would bear with him for a few minutes he should like to read a few extracts from two or three influential newspapers in Berlin commenting upon the action of the Conference and its results. The first quotation was from the Vossiche, September, 1906:
    "The German industry has indeed found Incrative occupation in the construction of apparatus, but apart from a small beginning, it has shown little interest in exploitation.…It is evident that the difficulties of competition have grown very much, and it will need an arduous straining of all available energy and efficiency to counteract a supremacy which England is aspiring to.…The English tenacity, supported by remarkable capacity for organisation, shows itself here prominently. Where is there a prominent point of any importance and suitable for the erection of wireless stations that does not belong to England, or is not under English influence?…
    Alluding to our own organisation it said—
    "However gratifying this progress may be from the standpoint of civilisation and the augmented safety of navigation, it is regrettable that German capital takes such a small share in this advance. At any rate with the exception of England and Italy all the other Powers have an urgent and a pressing interest to see that the British service falls, as it cripples their industrial competition and grants to England a rather dangerous influence from this system of communication."
    The Reichstote stated—
    "It would be even more impossible for the other States to admit a British supremacy over atmosphere than the British supremacy over seas."
    He apologised to the House for the length of those extracts, but he thought they would be convincing. He desired to know whether the Committee of Defence, which they owed to the patriotic sagacity of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, were of one
    1294
    mind on the subject, because rumour had it to the contrary. His second contention was that our Colonies had had no means of taking cognisance of the proposals or of the difficulties of enforcing the regulations discussed in Berlin. The House as a whole did not realise the magnitude of the Canadian and Newfoundland interests in the matter. Canada and Newfoundland together had a coast line of not less than:3,400 miles, whereas the whole of the British coast line from Dover to Land's End barely exceeded 280 miles. The reproach could not be levelled at Canada, still less at the Laurier administration, of desiring to strangle the competitive systems. Their view seemed to be that, until this science emerged from its experimental stage, it was best to leave well alone. His third contention was that in any agreement providing for the interchangeability of messages between different systems indiscriminately there must be the danger of these waves being shot through ether promiscuously, and in the welter and confusion that would be thereby created it was by no means improbable that our own messages which we had to send to our reserve stations on these shores would be blurred, obliterated, or intercepted, with the general result that the whole of our service would be dislocated. His fourth contention was that, unlike the cable and telegraphs, where they required an international understanding in order to lay ends of cables and wires at certain fixed points on the coasts, wireless telegraphy scorned all geographical limitations and barriers and know no frontiers. Therefore he thought that, until such time as arrangements with foreign Powers were considered necessary for our system, this country ought to be allowed to carry on the service which suited it best, and which, so far, had worked admirably. His fifth contention, and it was the last and most important, related to the status, utility, and general economy of our own organisation as compared with the organisation of foreign nations, notably that of Germany, in so far as any reliable comparison could be instituted with regard to their respective capabilities; for, while we were the common carriers at so much a word, the bulk of the people abroad were merely manufacturers of instruments. This was the second time that attempts had been made to

    1295
    draw us into international agreements, and, it might be presumed, judging from the anxiety that had been displayed, that their aim was to fortify the German position and the position of other Powers, which were untenable except with our adherence. He had no doubt that was an object of great use to the foreign Powers, because what they desired was to secure the establishment of their own systems upon our shores. Should we permit that object to be carried out? He would say certainly, if any such service could be conducted, and did not involve the principle of division of authority and competition between tbe different authorities, with the corollary of the joint use of the same stations. His right hon. friend knew the difficulties inherent in the domain of international cable agreements and how difficult it was to secure the introduction of even the smallest reform. The House was aware that the telegraph services in this country were under a central authority. What would the Postmaster-General say if the different makers of telegraphic instruments were to wish to co-operate with him in the conduct of his enterprise? What would the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster have said in the early days of the telephone if it had been suggested that he should allow communication with every single instrument to be effected through the central exchange? He would have said it would mean chaos. It would be more irksome and intolerable in the case of a wireless service between ship and shore or shore and shore. Let them take a simple case, and assume that two foreign ships were approaching our station. The House would easily see that if those ships were equipped with different instruments confusion would be the inevitable result. Our own delegate, Mr. Babington Smith, in proposing to the Conference that each State should have the right to reserve certain stations on its territory from the obligation to intercommunicate, urged that the well-organised service in this country would be subject to great jeopardy from the effect of messages transmitted under the provisions of the Convention. If the service would suffer disturbance from mere attempts at communication by ships not under the control of our stations imagination staggered at the prospect of a service
    1296
    which would be compounded of a far greater number of conflicting elements, ships worked by shipping companies, ships worked by wireless companies, shore stations worked by Government, shore stations worked by wireless companies, and the reserve stations worked in such a way that they were sure to be crowded out. He thought the result would be confusion worse confounded. Was it worth while, even in times of peace, to do anything that would, remotely even, disturb our well-conducted wireless service? What was the advantage of it? If foreign stations had at least as good a system as our own he could have understood the sense of entering into some arrangement in the direction of international convention; but so far as he could see the result of the Convention would be to encourage foreign Governments to collect information as regards the disposition of our own wireless arrangements round our coasts. We were the largest maritime Power in the world, and if anybody was to call the tune for the rest of the world we were the people who ought to do it. The difficulty of patent rights would constantly be cropping up, and it would be a matter of the utmost difficulty to adjust and reconcile the protection of these rights. They were told that the tendency of the Convention would be to advance and benefit science. He could not conceive a diplomatic instrument more calculated to hinder and check the progress of science; for it practically said to the inventor and the patentee, "Your patent will not be usable until every single State in the Convention agrees to use it," and even then he would probably get very short shrift for his rights. As a last resort they were told that unless the Convention was passed they would be working towards the creation of a monopoly. Whatever might be the drift of services abroad, there was no such thing as a monopoly in this country, and the suggestion merely created a false prejudice in the public mind. We had enough ships and wireless stations all over our dominions to keep our present system busy throughout the twenty-four hours; and if foreign nations wished to communicate with us, let them do so by all means; but let them use the instruments that we considered best, so that they might not disturb and unnecessarily injure the working of our present

    1297
    organised system. The Convention bristled with regulations the enforcement of which would be, if not practically impossible, so difficult, so harassing, and so irksome, that it should really cause any Government to withdraw from it if it unfortunately entered into it. We were on friendly terms with the nation that had been so conspicuous in initiating this Conference, but we could not overlook the colossal sacrifices she was making to build up her powerful Navy—a state of things that was bound to affect our Navy Estimates. Whether those sacrifices were for purposes of offence or defence the question was one which could not be overlooked. Wireless telegraphy was fast becoming an indispensable element in naval equipment. For other nations it might be more or less of a toy; for us it was the very breath of our nostrils. Were we to forget that "charity begins at home," and to go out of our way to stimulate the efforts of other nations at the cost of a possible injury to ourselves? If our naval programme was to be increased, the first section of the community to suffer would be the working classes, and he therefore appealed to the Labour Members to look upon the question as one specially affecting them. He did not know whether he might appeal to hon. Members from Ireland. He knew certain aspirations of theirs unfortunately circumscribed the range of their political vision, but he felt certain that the hon. and learned Gentleman who so brilliantly championed the cause of the Nationalists was animated by sentiments larger than mere local patriotism. He would be glad, therefore, if the hon. and learned Gentleman would help in disentangling these questions, if only on grounds of expenditure. He would remind the Irish Members that the brilliant and gifted inventor of our system of wireless telegraphy was a son of Erin, and that a considerable portion of the capital, labour, energy, and brain that went to build up that powerful undertaking came from Ireland. Whatever the results of the appeal which he made to the Government to mark time as against a policy of immediate and forward action—or rather he should say a leap in the dark—it could not afterwards be said that respectful remonstrance shad not been addressed to them. Theirs was the responsibility. Might it not
    1298
    prove to have been exercised at the risk and peril of two of the most cherished interests of this country, imperial and industrial defence. He begged to move.
    MAJOR SEELYin seconding the Motion, said his interest in the matter arose from the fact that he had had to consider it in reference to communication between lightships and the shore. It was to Mr. Gerald Balfour that the use of wireless telegraphy for this purpose, and with the happiest results to life saving, was due. There were two aspects of this question. Of the commercial aspect he would only say that it would be unwise, at the bidding of a Conference, composed as it was, to standardise an industry so completely in its infancy. He would say no more about the commercial aspect of the question. Nor was it necessary to deal with the fact that the Marconi Company had very nearly a monopoly in this country. We gave this monopoly of our own free will for our own purposes, and if we did not like monopolies our proper course was to buy the company out, stock, lock, and barrel. But from the strategical aspect the matter was of supreme, vital, overwhelming importance. In time of peace it was but a fractional percentage of the electrical communication of the world that was sent by wireless telegraphy.
    SIR EDWARD SASSOON: Because it is undeveloped.
    MAJOR SEELYsaid it would be so during our lifetime. But when this country went to war,.probably communication with our island by cable would cease. Would it not then be well, before we committed ourselves to the far-reaching provisions in this document, to reflect that probably we should have to rely on wireless telegraphy for communication with our fleet? If history was any guide, capability of communicating with a fleet would probably be worth twice the naval force that at any one moment could be put upon the sea. It had been suggested to him by a high naval authority that a Power with ten battleships and able freely to communicate with them by wireless telegraphy was in

    1299
    a position equal to that of another Power with twenty battleships but no such means of communication. He asked the Prime Minister, as representing the Committee of Defence, whether it was not true, looking back at the naval battles of the past, that the possession of such a system by the defeated force might have reversed the actual results. At the Conference the Great Powers of Europe were represented, none of whom had interests equal to our own, and in addition there were representatives of Brazil, Persia, Rumania, Uruguay, and Monaco, It was too much to ask the House to accept the document without further inquiry. It was always a delicate and difficult matter to know how far to invoke the co-operation of our Colonies in an international matter; but this was a matter of high interest to our Colonies, most of whom had wireless telegraphy stations of their own. They were not represented at the Conference, though they were to be in the future, but a Colony like Canada would have no more voice than one of the small German Crown colonies. The composition of the body was not such as should induce the House to accept the result without further inquiry by Select Committee. He drew attention to Articles 6 and 8, and noted the words "as far as possible"in an attempt to standardise an inchoate system. It was impossible to foretell what might result from the energy of inventors, and we might bitterly regret agreeing to the setting up of other stations alongside our own. Reference would, no doubt, be made to our reservations in the Protocol, but therein were reasons for further delay before signing this document. The House did not understand radio telegraphy, nor yet did Mr. Marconi; and who could say where we might be driven by the decision of the Conference? As a plain man he had a great dread of experts assembled in conference upon matters affecting the very life of a nation. No doubt our own representatives were well qualified to look after British interests, but he asked for the application of common sense after experts had given their opinion, and he begged the Government to assent to the appointment of a Select Committee.
    Motion made, and Question proposed—"That, in view of the experimental and undeveloped condition of radio-
    1300
    telegraphy, this House regards with apprehension any engagements hampering the complete freedom of action of the State, and asks His Majesty's Government to grant a Select Commitee to inquire into the proposals embodied in the Berlin Convention previous to ratification."—(Sir Edward Sassoon.)
    MR. BELLAIRSsaid he was glad that the hon. Baronet had by his speech taken this question out of the arena of Party politics altogether, because otherwise it would have been incumbent upon someone to point out that the late Postmaster-General had publicly blessed this agreement, and had stated that the Admiralty, the Post Office, and the War Office under the last Government were in agreement in regard to it. Evidence that that was the case was to be found in Article X. of the Post Office agreement binding the Marconi Company to concur in any arrangement the Government might make with foreign Powers. That showed that the Admiralty were in complete agreement with the Post Office in 1904. The hon. Baronet the Member for Hythe had said that the agreement with respect to the using of certain instruments would result in chaos. Personally he disagreed altogether with that view. The hon. Baronet had also said that there had been a want of consistency on the part of the Admiralty. He did not think that that had been proved. With regard to the statement that the Colonies had not been consulted as to whether they would enter into such an agreement, the matter would come up at the Inter-Colonial Conference next year, and if it were then found that their interests did not square with ours the agreement made at the Berlin Convention could be broken on one year's notice, and no great harm could be done in a year. The hon. Baronet had made a stalking-horse of maritime cables, especially in the case of the Pacific Cable to Australia which involved a loss of £90,000 a year. He denied that we were dependent on the Marconi system of wireless telegraphy for communication between the ships of the Navy or the mercantile marine. Experiments could be tried with waves of quite different length from those employed by

    1301
    the Marconi system between the shipping and coast stations. The House ought not to be asked to be guided by purely naval considerations, having regard to the fact that the work of our commerce went on year after year, whereas it was a hundred years since we had had a maritime war, and our mercantile supremacy had not been challenged since. His argument was that there should be an open market for all systems of wireless telegraphy as long as they did not interfere with each other. In that way we might get the best system in the future which would be for the benefit both of the Navy and of the mercantile marine. What the hon. Baronet was contemplating was a monopoly made by law. Our supremacy in the mercantile marine of the world had been attained by free competition; and the same result would follow if we allowed free competition with all systems of wireless telegraphy. We had 43,000 miles of coast-line—ten times the coastline of Germany, twice the coast-line of Germany and the United States—and half the shipping of the world. We had got the start in the mercantile marine, and he could not see how our monopoly was to be infringed upon by Germany or any other nation. Undoubtedly the Marconi Company had succeeded in getting a monopoly of the Press. Hon. Members had been bombarded with newspaper extracts presenting only one side of the case. He had read them all, and they gave a blood-curdling picture of what was to happen to this country as the result of the convention. The same predictions were made when the Navigation Laws were abolished; and yet they all knew what had happened since. Before the abolition of the Navigation Laws our commercial shipping was by no means supreme; but since it had become the greatest in the world. He believed that a similar system employed in regard to wireless telegraphy would bring about a corresponding result. On that side of the House they were not free-traders by compartments, but free-traders all along the line; and he did not see how they could adopt a dog-in-the-manger policy in regard to wireless telegraphy.
    *Mr. JOHN O'CONNORsaid that the hon. Baronet the Member for Hythe had appealed A to the sympathetic nature of the Irish Members for support to his Motion on the ground that the inventor of this system of wireless telegraphy was to some extent an Irishman. However ready they might be to respond to appeals of that kind, there was another element in an Irishman's nature, and that was that they thought justice should be done; and they believed that justice would not be done unless the Motion made by the hon. Baronet were adopted by the House. Much had been said in the course of the debate about monopoly; but if there was a monopoly it had been created by themselves, They had allowed it to grow up and encouraged it by contracts entered into with the Marconi Company by the several Government Departments. If the Marconi Company should be unable to perform the terms of the contracts entered into the Government Departments would be themselves to blame. It was well known that monopolies were created by other Departments than the Post Office. Monopolist rights were given through the Committees upstairs to railway companies, and good care was taken by every kind of inquiry that no infringement was made of those monopolists' rights. An agreement had also been made between the Marconi Company and Lloyds, which showed that the latter, who were the best judges of all the requirements of shipping, were of opinion that one system of wireless telegraphy should be in general use. Lloyds, after having expended £45,000 in experimenting with other systems on their own account, said that the Marconi system had been proved to be a good working system. With that knowledge the Post Office Department entered into an agreement with the Marconi Company for fifteen years with the condition that if another system of wireless telegraphy were introduced the Marconi Company were to be protected against interference at their stations—coastal or inland. That argument disposed of one Department of the State, but he now came to

    1303
    the agreement between the Admiralty and the Marconi Company. That company under the rules for the time being in force, by virtue of the Berne Convention had to give priority to Admiralty messages in cases of emergency, in regard to the necessity of which the Admiralty, it was provided, should be the sole judge. That was a most important provision. The Marconi Company were also bound to give certain privileges to the Post Office, and yet the Government, knowing that the company had signed the agreement, joined this Convention which invaded the rights of the company, and allowed something to happen which might disable the company from being able to perform the terms of the agreement. He therefore submitted that there was no question of monopoly. Under the Convention interference by foreign vessels might take place with our wireless telegraph stations, say, on the coast of Ireland, at Castletown by vessels coming from the west and at Rosslare by vessels coming from the east in trying to get into communication with the International Station which by this Convention, if ratified, could be erected midway between those two. There was another way in which the power of the company under the agreement would be interfered with. The Marconi Company had devoted themselves to manufacturing instruments of the highest power, and of the most delicate character. The machines manufactured in Germany were not of so delicate a character, and if the Marconi Company were compelled to receive messages from vessels that were not supplied with their own instruments one of the effects would be that they would be obliged to furnish their own stations, whether afloat or ashore, with instruments of a low grade character, and they would thus be disabled from sending their messages to the furthest distances, and from receiving messages from abroad. That would be of the greatest detriment to the company, especially in that they would have no control over their system. At the present moment there might be nothing like perfection in the Marconi system. Still they had done their best to secure it. In order to make their working more perfect they had offered and given to their servants a bonus if they carried
    1304
    out the regulations which would ensure perfect working. If they had to give a bonus to their own servants to secure regular working, what would be their difficulty if they had to work with persons over whom they had no control? If they had to receive messages from those under the control of foreign agencies it would be a detriment to their service and prevent them from carrying out their contracts with public departments. The incentive to take the initiative on the part of this country would also be taken away, and the general efficiency of the public service would be impaired. For these reasons he supported the Motion of the hon. Baronet and thought that the whole matter should be referred to a Select Committee which should have the advantage of expert opinion before a decision was arrived at.
    *MR. J. D. WHITEsaid he was sure that they all sympathised with the idea of the hon. Baronet that any Convention which would prevent advance should be regarded with considerable suspicion. He ventured, however, to differ from the hon. Baronet as to the alleged effect of this Convention. It seemed to him that the proposed arrangement had not been entered into lightly or without careful consideration. These proposals were of the same general character; as the Protocols published in 1903, which had been specially referred to in Clause 10 of the Marconi agreement of 1904. That clause dealt particularly with the possibility of such an International Convention being agreed to. The same ides was in the mind of the late Postmaster-General when he entered, into the Marconi agreement two years ago. He mentioned the Marconi agreement without the slightest idea of making Party capital out of it, but because that agreement and this Convention were very closely related. There were other systems in the field, but under the agreement we gave the Marconi Company important rights which amounted to a virtual monopoly. At the time we did so, there were other systems in the field which were formidable rivals to the Marconi system, and notwithstanding that the Marconi Company was accorded these exceptional advantages not only for the term of their master patent, but for a

    1305
    term extending some years beyond the time when that patent would expire. His hon. friend opposite had quoted from Clause 3 of the Marconi agreement, but he had omitted to refer to Clause 10 which made special provision for the event of our entering into such a Convention as that now under discussion. Indeed, the Marconi agreement contained special provisions for an "additional rate" to be paid to the company in certain events under such a Convention. He thought it only right for the House to recognise that the Marconi agreement had very seriously hampered the Postmaster-General in exercising his discretion in this matter. In view of the fact that this agreement was entered into by the predecessor of the present Postmaster-General he thought any action which had been taken should be criticised in a very generous manner. The hon. Baronet the Member for Hythe had made an eloquent appeal to hon. Members sitting below the gangway. He would appeal to the terms of the Convention itself. He hardly needed to remind the House that its object was to utilise wireless telegraphy for ship to shore and shore to ship messages all over the world in order that ships might receive from time to time messages which would be extremely useful to commerce. It had been said that the effect would be to standardise the system and to impose uniformity. He would remind the House that Article 3 of the Convention provided that coast stations and ship stations should be obliged to exchange reciprocally radio telegrams without regard to the particular system adopted by them. That was intended to secure fair play for all systems. It has been suggested that the convention would interfere with our National defences, but he would point out that by Article 21 high contracting parties retained all their privileges and naval and military installations were not affected. The only qualification to this, and they were only the loosest of requirements, were those relating to Article 9, which referred to the giving of priority to signals of distress from ships, and Article 8, which provided that the working of the radiotelegraph stations should be organised as far as possible in such a manner as not to interfere with the work-
    1306
    ing of other stations of the kind. He thought, however, that in relation to military and naval working the giving of priority to distress signals might very well be left to the good feeling of those in charge of the ships and naval stations, and that as regards interferences the use of the system for military and naval operations should be unqualified. As regarded the Colonies he thought the hon. Baronet had overlooked the fact that by Article 1 of the Final Protocol they had not come in automatically, and they would have a free hand as to whether they joined it or not. Personally, he thought that the Colonies would be benefited by joining. The mover of this Motion had asked where the benefit came in. In reply to that question he would say that in the first place the use of wireless telegraphy for all ships navigating along all the coasts of various countries would result in considerably lessening the loss of life and property from shipwrecks. He was sure all hon. Members would be very pleased that distress signals should have priority over all others. Wireless telegraphy would also be very useful to seafaring men because it would enable them to know at once what were the weather reports, what was the depth of water on bars and in harbours, what facilities there were for supplying fuel and food and other valuable information necessary for the safe and speedy navigation of ships. When the system was in full working order it would largely obviate the necessity of calling at ports for orders, and ships would be able to go direct to their destination, although they might not have had full instructions when they first set sail. He thought that would be a great advantage to British commerce. The hon. and gallant Member for the Abercromby Division of Liverpool had stated that very little commercial use had been made of wireless telegraphy, but one of the reasons for that was that they had so very little international arrangement, and his opinion was that under this Convention a great deal more would be done. In view of the fact that other nations desired this Convention, the question was whether we should join in the Convention or stand out. It should not be overlooked that this country

    1307
    did the lion's share of the carrying trade of the world, and therefore it was of the greatest importance that our ships should get in communication with foreign stations in order to keep up our commercial position. It would have been taking a serious responsibility if the Postmaster-General had decided to stand outside the Convention and thus place the whole of our British ships off foreign coasts in a worse position than foreign ships would be in. There was a considerable guarantee against interference because it was specially provided by the Service Regulations annexed to the Convention that certain wave-lengths should be adopted, and that if several ships came to a station at one time they were to be taken in a certain order. As regards the more general danger of interference on a larger scale, he would point out that it was quite open even now to any foreign Power to set up a wireless transmission station of its own just outside our territory in such a way as might seriously interfere with our own internal arrangements. The Convention did not deal with that point because it would be impossible for us to impose such an obligation unless we were willing to accept a reciprocal obligation from them. He thought we should be the last in the world to say that our use of wireless telegraphy should be hampered in that way. He failed entirely to follow what the hon. Baronet had said about interference with patents. It seemed to him that the Marconi agreement had done much to interfere with patents, and one object of this Convention was to secure equality of opportunity and to stimulate competition. But the best safeguard of all was that Article 11 provided for the parties modifying the terms of the Convention from time to time, and that Article 22 provided that—
    "The present Convention shall come into operation on and from the 1st July, 1908, and shall remain in force for an indefinite period, or until the expiration of a year from the date of its denunciation."
    Thus if any country found that the arrangement did not suit it it could retire on giving twelve months notice. That was a most important safeguard, as it supplied the necessary flexibility, and adapted the system to the various changes which might take place through the pro-
    1308
    gress of invention. He thought hon. Members would agree with him as to the rapid progress which wireless telegraphy had made. Great improvements had recently been made both in the transmitting and receiving arrangements, and messages could now be sent over greater distances than before, and with a less expenditure of electric energy. Considerable progress had also been made in directing the messages and attuning the instruments It was a remarkable thing that since the beginning of this Conference an entirely new system of radiotelegraphy had been developed. The kind of radiotelegraphy contemplated in this Convention was the kind with which they were familiar which consisted in sending a series of individual impulses from the transmitting station. The now radiotelegraphy of which we had learned only in the last few months was of a continuous-current character which could compare for speed with ordinary telegraphy and which had already developed far greater facilities for attunement than any previous system. The progress of invention within the last week did not stop there, they had had news of a new system of radiotelephony in which it had been found possible to utilise electric waves instead of light waves for wireless telephonic messages, and such messages had been exchanged at a distance of sixty kilometres. This showed how rapid was the progress of invention and emphasised the importance of the provision which gave a country a free hand on twelve months notices if they found the Convention did not suit them. He was glad that the British delegates were amongst those who insisted that that provision should be inserted. The Postmaster-General had had a very difficult task before him, because he had to endeavour to secure as far as possible the full international benefit of wireless telegraphy in the present state of the art, and had also to see that structure did not hinder future developments. It seemed to him that object was well achieved. This Convention would give most-favoured-nation treatment to British ships in all parts of the world so far as wireless telegraphy installations were concerned, and it would give better security to life and

    1309
    property at sea. It would increase the volume of our trade, and by providing an international working of wireless telegraphy on a scale larger than before we should be taking an important step towards knitting the nations of the world closer together. Whether the Government granted the further inquiry which had been asked for or not, he ventured to say that the Convention would be of great use, and that it had nothing to fear from the most searching scrutiny that might be bestowed upon it.
    MR. WILLIAM REDMONDhaving congratulated the hon. Member for Mid. Lanark upon his return to the House, said he would not follow the hon. Member for Dumbartonshire in his long and intricate arguments in reference to the various systems of wireless telegraphy. In his opinion the hon. Member's speech was the best and most potent argument that could be used in favour of the Motion before the House. Nobody could deny that the subject was one of great intricacy which ought not to be discussed and decided off-hand. What was asked for was the appointment of a Select Committee, so that all the arguments might be gone into and the House fully informed as to the facts of the case. The hon. Baronet who proposed the Motion had referred to the Irish Members and to the Labour Members in the most flattering terms. He was aware that many of these stations would be in Ireland, but all they were anxious about was that a Select Committee should be appointed to consider all the issues at stake. He did not know how the hon. Member for Dumbartonshire could possibly object to so reasonable a proposal. They had not all studied the matter so closely as the hon. Member, and he thought the House generally ought to have an opportunity of acquainting themselves with all the facts. That was a proposal so reasonable that he felt sure the Postmaster-General would accept it. He did not think the reference to the Colonies had been quite satisfactory. It had been said that it would be optional for the Colonies whether or not they would be bound by the Convention. He had heard some opinions expressed by gentlemen interested in Australia and in
    1310
    shipping, to the effect that the Colonies ought to have an opportunity of taking part in all such conferences as the one held in reference to this matter. In all international matters Colonies like Australia and New Zealand ought to have their claims thoroughly recognised. They ought to have been invited to send delegates, and no Convention ought to be ratified by this House without the most detailed consultation with the representatives of the Colonies. He appealed to the Prime Minister and the Postmaster-General to recognise that there was a very deep feeling that this important matter should be inquired into by a Select Committee, and he hoped that the interests of Australia and New Zealand and our other Colonies would not be overlooked in any inquiry that might be decided upon.
    MR. CLAUDE HAYsaid he did not rise to make any attack upon the Postmaster-General, although he had had occasion to cross swords with him in regard to wireless telegraphy earlier in the year. He wished to join in the appeal in favour of the Motion before the House. He thought a Select Committee on this subject would be of very great service, because it would to a great extent set at rest many of the contentions advanced by the different companies and inventors and those who desired that the Marconi Company monopoly should be brought to an end. If the Government found that it was desirable both from a national and from a commercial point of view to terminate its agreement with the Marconi Company its hands would be strengthened by the Report of the Select Committee. He did not speak on behalf of any company or inventor, nor did he support in any degree the Marconi Company or the agreements between the Admiralty and the Post Office with the Marconi Company. Those agreements might possibly have been of some advantage in the past, but they were of little advantage now, and they might be sources of danger in the future. He hoped the Postmaster-General would acquiesce in this Motion, and he did not believe that any disadvantage would result from the loss of time involved in the appointment of a Select Committee. A delay of three or four months would not imperil the

    1311
    national interest or injure our mercantile marine.
    *MR. REESsaid he failed entirely to see where we came in upon this matter or what this country could possibly get by this Convention. The hon. Member for Dumbartonshire had summed up his remarks in favour of the Convention by saying that if it had not contained a stipulation that it might be discontinued with a year's notice he would not have supported it. He would remind his hon. friend that it was much more difficult to get out of an engagement than to get into one. We were not out of the Sugar Convention yet. If the Postmaster-General replied upon this matter he trusted that he would be able to put forward in a much more convincing manner the advantages which this country was to gain from participation in the Convention. The only working business system at the present moment was the Marconi system, and if the action of the Government tended to perpetuate that system he would not regard it as a disadvantage. The Marconi Company were the people in possession. In spite of his hon. friend's enumeration of the merits of the Convention, how could he contend that a mere stipulation that distress signals should be taken first and that there should be general intercommunication was any justification for entering into such an agreement? Were they going to be frightened by the word "monopoly"? The Postmaster-General's Department was a great monopoly, and a very beneficial one it was. What harm was there in the Marconi system being a monopoly? Were not our cypher codes a monopoly? He wished that all matters connected with our defences were much more a monopoly, instead of being known to almost every foreign nation as they were. He thought everything connected with our defences should be as far as possible a monopoly. What was the use of shying at a mere word. For the matter of that every monopolist was not a Sir Giles Overreach, and he did not consider that for Government to favour a British company, by the way, was any crime in a British Government. Here, however, there was no question but that of the public and strategic interests concerned. He understood moreover that the Post-
    1312
    master-General was not precluded by his agreement with the Marconi Company from licensing other stationson the south coast of England. There was no doubt it would be more beneficial and agreeable to a foreign Power to have its own machinery instead of using ours, but it was no part of the duty of this country, indeed it was not advisable, to assist foreign countries in that way. He hoped his right hon. friend would accede to the request made in the Motion, and appoint a Select Committee. In spite of the able representatives they had upon this Convention, and no nation could have a better representative than his friend Mr. Babington Smith, they were beaten every time over these matters. They were bound to be beaten when they had all the small Powers coming in to vote. It was not this country but other nations that would be left in the cold if we withdrew from the Convention. In all these arrangements we went in as the one man who had any money to play a round game of cards with the other Powers. The Convention would involve us in all kinds of difficulties and confusion and he positively dreaded such arrangements because in nearly every case we had much to lose and nothing to gain, while other Powers had little, at any rate less, or nothing to lose and a great deal to gain, from pinning us down to restrictions which suited themselves.
    *MR. BEAUCHAMPsaid that in 1901, when the agreement between Lloyds and the Marconi Company was made, it was thought advisable that one system of telegraphy should be in general use. He agreed that the Marconi system had proved very satisfactory, but time passed rather quickly, and he thought Lloyds would think carefully before entering into another agreement of the kind. When that agreement was entered into the Marconi system held the field and was the only workable one. It had been stated that Mr. Marconi had obtained a monopoly, but that was subject to certain stipulations. It was part of the agreement with the Post Office that if we did enter into a Convention of this sort the Marconi Company would relieve the Admiralty and Lloyds and all other persons with whom the Company had contracted, from any

    1313
    obligations arising under their contracts, and that they should refuse to exchange messages with ships or shore stations in the United Kingdom not using the Marconi system. He thought that covered the point that they were doing something which they ought not properly to do. The hon. and gallant Member for the Abercromby Division of Liverpool had spoken upon this subject from a strategical point of view. He agreed with the hon. and gallant Member when he said that ten ships equipped with wireless telegraphy would be equal to twenty ships which had not that advantage. Entering into this agreement did not prevent the Admiralty having a system of wireless telegraphy. They could still have their own system whether they entered the Convention or not. If the Government did not enter the Convention at the present time it was possible that they might not be able to enter it when they desired to do so. As had been pointed out, if we did not enter into the Convention now, other countries might set up their systems, and we might be left out. He was of opinion that the Government were absolutely right in entering into the Convention. He thought it was the duty of the Government to advance as far as possible anything which would be of advantage to the world at large, provided that it would not interfere in any way with British interests. There was no doubt whatever that there were other systems of wireless telegraphy which were progressing very rapidly. The Marconi Company had been insisting with the Admiralty, the Postmaster-General, and Lloyds that they should be under no obligation to receive messages from any other system than the Marconi system. The result of that was, he thought, to prevent people from improving any particular system which they might have, and to operate as a distinct monopoly for the Marconi Company. There were two companies which he understood were quite ready to adopt what they considered a better system, but they were unable to put it in their ships, because it would be of no use when they approached our coasts with which they desired to communicate, the only practical receiving stations on these
    1314
    coasts being those of the Marconi Company, which refused to take any messages except those of their own particular system. He agreed that if this question, was referred to a Select Committee there would be no reason to fear that the result of its deliberations would lead to a conclusion unfavourable to our adhering to our determination to enter into the Convention.
    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid that, of all Conventions that had ever been signed, this was one of the least objectionable in itself. He was one of those who felt bound to treat with a considerable amount of suspicion any Convention which put, or was at all likely under any conceivable circumstances to put, the interests of this country under the domination of any foreign Power or Powers. [An Hon. Member: "The Sugar Convention."] Yes, the Sugar Convention included, to which he was personally much opposed. He approached this particular Convention in that spirit with the object of endeavouring to understand whether the arrangement would be likely to be of advantage to this country, or whether there was anything in it which might possibly do us harm. He took rather the opposite view to the hon. Member who said that this country had not been engaged in a naval war for 100 years, and suggested that we need take no precautions of any kind, as there would probably be no naval war for another hundred years. He was in Berlin on the day that the news of the Spion Kop disaster was received, and he formed a different opinion. He thought they ought to act with the most jealous care regarding anything that might by any possibility interfere with the interests of this country. As to the effect of this Convention the evidence was conflicting. Some hon. Members who had spoken, apparently with authority, had stated that it would have the effect of creating a system of wireless telegraphy on the ships and shores of foreign nations which would interfere with our interests. It had been suggested that the Marconi instruments might be interfered with. He was unable to say whether the Marconi instruments would be injured

    1315
    or destroyed. It had been suggested also that if the Convention were carried out the effect would be to introduce into wireless telegraphy chaos and confusion which would seriously damage our existing system, and that by going into this Convention we should be helping what was tending to become a deleterious monopoly. He spoke against the Wireless Telegraphy Bill last year and the year before. It seemed to him that anything that would hamper science and prevent experiment was a mistake. If we could do anything to break down monopoly, to improve wireless telegraphy, and to advance science we ought to do it. On the whole, he thought the Convention was a judicious one, but it was not quite clear, and under the circumstances, having regard to the vast interests at stake, he thought the Postmaster-General would act wisely if he agreed to the appointment of a Select Committee.
    *SIR HENRY NORMANappealed to the Postmaster-General to accept the Motion. It appeared from the debate that the House was practically unanimous in favour of the proposal. He had heard no objection to the appointment of a Select Committee. He had taken some interest in this matter from the scientific and other points of view. In reading the Convention one thing that struck him was the extreme difficulty of realising at once its scope and far-reaching character. The conditions under which the Convention was arrived at had not been such as they could regard with satisfaction on all points. Some of the reasons for dissatisfaction had been stated and others which had better not be stated were known to Members of the House. The Government had not had an opportunity of considering the matter in great detail, and no harm could possibly be done to any interest by postponing the decision for sufficient time to enable it to be investigated by a Select Committee. The Postmaster-General had already done admirable work in his Department during his brief tenure of office, and by agreeing to the Motion they would be under still deeper gratitude to him.
    *THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. Sydney Buxton, Tower Hamlets, Poplar)said the discussion had shown that Members fully realised the importance of the subject; and his hon. and gallant friend the Member for Abercromby would recognise that the insular position of this country and our interests as a naval power were predominant considerations in the minds of members of the Government, the commercial aspect being also taken into account. He was glad to recognise that no Party question was involved, and that the Government were carrying on a continuity of policy. The late Government considered the first Conference of 1903 premature, and had no means of enforcing its conclusions. The following year they considered the matter very carefully from the point of view of the draft Convention, since very considerably amended. Careful consideration was given, and it was decided to accept the principle of intercommunication subject to the view of the Admiralty that provisions essential for safeguarding our naval interests should be adopted. They were prepared to go into the Conference on that basis. In order to enable them to enter into such a Conference it was necessary to pass legislation, and one of the primary reasons for passing the Wireless Telegraphy Act, 1904, was to enable the Government of the day to adhere to the Convention relating to inter-communication if it was carried through. The Post Office Agreement of 1904 also anticipated and made provision for the same event. Therefore the principle of intercommunication had been recognised by the late Government as a good thing if it could be properly fenced round with due safeguards of the Admiralty. Then it became necessary for the present Government to consider the matter, because it was obvious that wireless communication required more control than it had had in the past. The invitations to the Conference were issued last spring, and the Government continued the policy of their predecessors. After careful consultation between the Post Office, the Colonial Office, the India Office, the Board of Trade, the Treasury, the War Office, and

    1317
    the Admiralty, they came to the conclusion that the invitation should be accepted, and that they should go into the Conference prepared, subject to certain necessary safeguards, to accept the principle of inter-communication. He could assure the House that great consideration was given to the question in order to be quite sure that they did not commit themselves to any proposals that would in any way injure our naval or commercial interests. An hon. Gentleman below the gangway had raised the question of the Colonies, saying that they had not been consulted on this important matter. But the Colonies were specifically consulted, and the draft Convention was sent to them for their observations. Some of the Colonies suggested certain details which were accepted and were included in the Convention. He wished the House to understand that the Colonies had been in no way ignored; they appreciated the fact that they were consulted, and the Government had their support generally in regard to the present position. Although this Convention had been subjected to the examination and criticisms of our delegates at the Conference, the Government were now asked to refer it to a Select Committee in order to obtain further information and to bring to bear on it expert opinion. It was contended that, if the Select Committee came to the conclusion that the Convention was a proper one, that decision would remove any apprehension that might, at present exist in the minds of Members of the House, and perhaps in some quarters of the country, and that therefore the Convention when it was agreed to would have greater force. He quite agreed that the matter was of the utmost importance, and that it was an intricate question bristling with details which hon. Members could hardly be expected to have mastered. It was not a Party question, and therefore if it was referred to a Select Committee it would be understood in all quarters of the House that it was sent to that Committee with a view to arriving at a satisfactory conclusion which would give confidence to the House and to the country. It was obviously the feeling on both sides of the House that there should be further inquiry into this matter; and therefore
    1318
    he could say on behalf of the Government that they would at a very early date next session appoint a Committee to which the Convention—the Articles, the Protocol and the Regulations—would be referred with a view to assist the Government in arriving at a conclusion on the whole question. The ratification of the Convention need not take effect for some considerable time, and therefore there was ample time for the inquiry. He wished to say emphatically on behalf of the Government that they had nothing whatever to conceal, and they were not afraid of any inquiry. They firmly believed that the more the Convention was examined the more it would be found that our naval interests were fully protected, and that our commercial interests would certainly be benefited by it.
    Perhaps the House would allow him to state the reasons why they went into the Conference, and to say what the Government believed had resulted from it. They were not actuated by "altruistic benevolence,"but acted because they thought that this country would benefit. The British Government could not lightly refuse an invitation to an International Conference which was intended, at all events ostensibly, for the public good. He did not say that other nations did not expect to benefit also from the Conference, but he believed that there was a general desire on the part of all the countries represented at the Conference to arrive at a solution which would benefit the world at large. Was there then any valid reason for a change of policy? After considerable consideration of the whole question, the Government came to the conclusion that we should enter into the Conference subject to certain essential conditions in regard to our naval and commercial position. Therefore instructions to our delegates were drawn up, and at the first meeting of the Conference our delegates publicly declared the conditions on which alone they would be entitled to sign the Convention. What were those conditions, every one of which were secured? A great deal had been said about our naval and military position. One of the principal articles of the Convention was that no

    1319
    naval station was affected in any way by the Convention itself. Our naval position stood outside the Convention. It was obvious also that in a time of war a Convention of this kind would fall to the ground, and any country would be entitled to seize, dismantle, or utilise any wireless telegraph station in its territory quite regardless of any Convention. Then there was a specific clause that each State was entitled to use secret apparatus and to carry on secret signalling when they so desired, without giving any information about the methods used. Further, the Admiralty attached considerable importance to the power of exempting any station they desired from the operation of intercommunication. The only qualification of that power was that there should be certain stations in the United Kingdom open to intercommunication for the purposes of international commerce.
    SIR E. SASSOONasked how close the two stations might be.
    *MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid that was left entirely within the discretion of the Government who exempted stations. The only obligation was that there should be a station suitable for international intercommunication in the same region. The Admiralty also attached the utmost importance to regulations VI. and VII., which, at the instance of the British delegates, secured Regulations and provisions for their enforcement, adequate to prevent interference and confusion. Those were some of the positive safeguards which accrued under the Convention. In addition our delegates, acting under instructions, were able to outvote the Article in the original draft Convention, which would have required every country to boycott any system which did not carry out the Convention. They also changed the proposal for compulsory arbitration to voluntary arbitration, because the Government said they were not willing to place themselves in such a position as to be compelled to go to arbitration with some other country in regard to a matter in which they considered they ought to be the sole arbiters. Also, in regard to the American proposal for ship-to-ship communication, they
    1320
    considered that the time had not come when this great extension of the regulation of wireless telegraphy should take place, and from that they were exempt.
    He believed one of the great advantages of the Convention, if we ratified it, would be that it would tend to enlarge, or, at all events to protect, the number of wireless stations in Great Britain, and that it would discourage the erection of foreign stations which would interfere with British stations already erected. There was an obligation on all those signing the Convention not to work stations in such a way as to have that effect. Further, the nearest station was to have the preference, and a minimum of energy was to be used. These international regulations were a very material benefit to Great Britain, because we were already in possession in the Channel of the best stations, and at all the strategical points we were also in possession of the nearest stations, and the effect of the Convention would be to discourage other stations being put up which would interfere with those existing stations. That was a very considerable advantage to us, from both a naval and a commercial point of view. We should really be actually securing, and not abandoning our predominance, our priority, and our geographical position. He thought the hon. Baronet implied, and it had certainly been implied in the Press, that if we stood out of the Convention, the Convention would fail. That was an entire misconception of the position. Every other nation, rightly or wrongly, was in favour of intercommunication, and, whether we entered it or not, the Convention would go through. If, therefore, we stood out, we should stimulate what we expressly desired to discourage—the erection of additional stations on foreign soil. If Germany, France, Holland, and other countries were not able to communicate with stations in Great Britain, they would be bound, however friendly they might be, to erect those stations in their own territory; and that would be disadvantageous to us in time of war because we should have no control over them, and in time of peace from the point of view of enterprise and revenue. And what was more, the erection of these additional stations would injure our existing stations, because there would have to be greater

    1321
    power used, and this would lead to more confusion between the various wireless stations. He wanted the House to understand that there were two ways in which they must look at this Convention—nimely, not only how we stood in regard to the Convention itself, but also as to what would happen if we did not join it.
    He had endeavoured to show that, as regarded our naval interests, we were fully protected in the Convention, and that those interests might be jeopardized if we did not join the Convention. The hon. Baronet had laid great stress on the point that, by this Convention, we were, as he alleged, hampering the complete freedom of this country. If he meant by that that various regulations were to be carried out for what might be called the administrative use of wireless telegraphy, it was perfectly true. Any regulations which facilitated and improved the general administration of such a matter as wireless telegraphy were, to a certain extent, a restriction on freedom. On the other hand, they added very much to the use of wireless telegraphy. He would point out that, as regarded the general position, we had complete freedom as to any station or stations that we chose to exempt altogether from the operation of intercommunication, and that, though they might be exempted from the obligation of intercommunication, they retained all the other advantages which were given to those stations by the Convention. We had entire and complete freedom, from the point of view of both commerce and the Navy, to utilise any particular system that the Government might think advisable. Far from lessening our freedom in this matter, if we joined the Convention we should really be regaining it, because, unfortunately, the Admiralty, the Post Office and Lloyds were, at the present moment, hampered to a large extent by the obligation of various Agreements with the Marconi Company. To his mind, one of the great advantages of adherence to the Convention would be that, for the first time, and much sooner than would otherwise have been the case, we should be able to attain to complete freedom in regard to these Agreements. It had been suggested that there were
    1322
    four or five matters in which the British delegates were outvoted at the Convention, that, therefore, they were forced to accept many matters to which they objected, and that we were put in a worse position by the Convention than we should otherwise have been in. The only matter in which the British delegates did not carry their way, either directly or indirectly, was in regard to the proposal that additional rates should be charged for intercommunication. That was a matter to the detriment, no doubt, of the Marconi Company, but, at the same time, we were bound, under our agreement with them, to make up to them, for a certain number of years, these additional rates. The hon. Gentleman had said that we had only one vote while Montenegro had one also. That was true, but he would point out that, whether we had one vote or fifty, our delegates went to the Convention with certain instructions, and every single point in connection with those instructions was carried out. In addition to that, our delegates, through their ability, zeal, and tact, were enabled to obtain considerable advantages to this country which had not been anticipated. It was a question, not of the actual voting power, but of the influence which the country could bring to bear. And now the Conference had adjourned for five years. All that was left was the International Bureau, but there was not a word of truth in the allegation that that Bureau would have control over the action of the Government, or that the Admiralty would beat its mercy. There was no voting power in the Bureau because there was no representation on it; it was merely a branch of the telegraph union at Berne. It merely sat to collate and circulate information. Further, by giving a year's notice this country could retire from the Convention, and no Government would hesitate for a moment to do so if they found that our naval or commercial interests were injured by the Convention. The position of the Colonies and India had been raised, and one hon. Member had said that they ought to have been invited to the Conference, and asked to join the Convention. They did not themselves desire this, however, nor did the Government, for thus they were not

    1323
    made responsible for the actual drawing up of the Convention, and they could adhere to it or leave it at any time they desired. With regard to the question of voting, each country could put forward a claim to five votes for her colonies. We should thus be able to propose five votes for the Colonies; and these the next Conference, acting on the analogy of the Postal Union, would almost certainly allot to us. There was no doubt that the Government in power would do their best five years hence to communicate with the various countries concerned, so that the question of the colonial voters, he thought, could practically be disposed of before the Convention met. He hoped he had shown that the Government had been fully alive to the importance of the Imperial interests of this country and done their best to protect them.
    Commercially, as a great maritime nation we stood to gain for freedom of intercommunication. And in regard to the commercial qnestion, it appeared to him that international control was essential, and that the difficulties which had arisen from one station interfering with another could only be thus effectually dealt with. At all events, one of the real advantages of the Convention would be that it would not add to the interference and confusion which at present existed, but would largely diminish it, because there would be very effective control over the methods and regulations under which ships and coast stations would communicate one with another. Besides, the ship and the operator would each have to have a licence, which would be forfeited if there was any disobedience to orders. The hon. Baronet was mistaken in thinking that the intercommunication introduced would stand in the way of improvements. In his opinion an essential element of the regulations was the encouragement of a good and the discouragement of a bad system. Special provisions, which were inserted at the instance of our delegates, only allowed licences in the case of an apparatus which conformed to a certain degree of efficiency and to competent operators. An inventor would be able to maintain absolute secrecy as to his improvement, the only obligation on him being the general one of inter-
    1324
    communication in the ordinary way and with the ordinary apparatus. He confessed he should have thought the general principle of free trade and enterprise in these matters was from our point of view better than tieing ourselves to one particular system, which even if at the present moment the best certainly was not likely to remain so for ever.
    He had no quarrel with the Marconi Company; he had himself a great admiration and respect for Mr. Marconi, and he was sure they all felt that he had done a vast amount in this field of scientific improvement, though he was not sure that Mr. Marconi's friends did not claim a little too much for him. But it should be remembered that if Mr. Marconi had benefited England, England had also been of considerable advantage to him. The Marconi Company had received something like £40,000, and they were receiving £5,000 a year under the Admiralty Agreement. This country, therefore, had not treated them badly. He was not concerned in the claim from various companies, but he would point out that, after all, the Marconi Company was not the only British company with stations in England or the Colonies. The claim made by that company that they were the only British company, that the British Empire was bound up with them, and that British ships ought, therefore, to be fitted with Marconi apparatus, exclusively, was a grass and great exaggeration. One of the great arguments in favour of the Convention was that under the Marconi system of refusing intercommunication many British ships were increasingly hampered compared with their foreign rivals. Though the Marconi Company had not a monopoly, they had done their very best to obtain one. But the fact that they had not succeeded made it largely necessary to have this Convention. The only alternative to a world-wide monopoly was organisation under International convention and regulation. There were other powerful companies, British and foreign, and good systems besides the Marconi. New and startling inventions were constantly appearing. The company complained that they were being badly treated. But he must

    1325
    point out that only two years ago the Marconi Company themselves voluntarily entered into an agreement with the Post Office, for valuable consideration received, to the effect that, if the Government adhered to the Convention, they would agree to allow their stations to be placed under the obligation of intercommunication, and that they would free Lloyds and the Admiralty and others from any obligations not to intercommunicate and for any consequent pecuniary claim which the company might have on them at that time. Now that the company were asked to carry out their side of the bargain they complained that the Government were doing them damage. If it were true, as they boasted, that the Marconi Company and the British Empire were so bound up together that to injure one was to injure the other, he could only say that a few years ago they were willing to sell the country's birthright for a mess of pottage. The Marconi Company had the best stations, and if their claim was true that they had the best system, the Convention could not hurt them, for in competition they must succeed.
    MR. JOHN O'CONNOR: Has the agreement to which the right hon. Gentleman refers ever been reduced to writing?
    *MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid the hon. Gentleman would find it among the Parliamentary Papers. It was published in April, 1906.
    In conclusion he stated that it would have been a serious thing for this country if it had stood out from the Convention. By going into it at the first we secured our own terms; if we had not gone into it at first we should have had to go into it some time on the terms of the other countries; for everyone admitted that a Convention would be sooner or later essential. He did not say it was not possible to pick holes in it here and there, but looking at the Convention all round, he was convinced that it safeguarded our naval interests and was advantageous to our commercial supremacy. He thought the country was greatly indebted to the delegates representing the Admiralty, the War Office, and the Post
    1326
    Office at the Conference for the ability, pluck, and tact with which they had discharged their mission.
    MR. BONAR LAWsaid he was very glad that the statement of the right hon. Gentleman made it unnecessary for him to indulge in a task which he did not look forward to with pleasure, and that was to make a speech against the Convention. He happened to be the first Chairman of the Committee appointed to consider the question in this country, and he therefore had a sense of responsibility in regard to the matter. Moreover, he knew how able were the delegates sent to represent this country at the Convention, and he did not wish to take action hastily, and with no more information than it had been possible for him to obtain. Though he did not intend in the least to meet the points raised by the right hon. Gentleman, he still felt, so far as he had information before him to enable him to judge, that the Convention was not one to which it was to the interest of this country to adhere. It seemed to him it was not good business on the part of this country to give a great deal more than we were going to get. The right hon. Gentleman had stated that our delegates went into the Convention with a real desire to do good to the world at large.
    *MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: What I said was that, having first safeguarded our interests, they believed that any advantage to the world at large would be an advantage to us.
    MR. BONAR LAWsaid that did not make much difference to the point he was going to make. He said that the right hon. Gentleman went into the Convention with a strong desire to do something for the benefit of the world at large, but he thought the other parties went into it with a much stronger desire to do something to benefit the world at home. In the conflict between these two interests, he was afraid that ours had rather suffered. He was very glad that the subject was to be considered further, and it was, therefore, not necessary for him to meet the very interesting speech of the right hon. Gentleman. But supposing the position

    1327
    had been reversed and Germany in this industry had got a great start, either in consequence of the superiority of her system or of her territorial position, and that we had desired to come up to her and rival her, would Germany have allowed that initial advantage to be taken away from her by any Convention? The right hon. Gentleman had declared that the Convention would not destroy our initial advantage, and, if that were proved to be true, he did not think there would be much hostility to the Convention. He was very glad to have the opportunity of congratulating the right hon. Gentleman on the position which he had taken up in the matter. There had been no pressure whatever put upon him, and it would have been perfectly reasonable for him to have said that it was a question for which the Government was responsible and that the Cabinet must be the judges in the matter. Instead of doing that, he had realised that there was in the House and in the country a feeling that we were going into the matter rather in the dark, and he had met the general wish of the House by agreeing to allow it to be thoroughly considered by an impartial Committee. The right hon. Gentleman was to be most sincerely congratulated on having taken that course.
    SIR EDWARD SASSOON,in view of the exhaustive and extremely lucid statement made by the Postmaster-General and the announcement that His Majesty's Government had decided to appoint a Select Committee next session, begged leave to withdraw the Motion.
    MR. JOHN O'CONNORasked whether the Postmaster-General would bear in mind the words of his own agreement with the Marconi Company, and see that the terms of reference to the Committee directed attention to any system of wireless telegraphy which might be installed with the object of securing non-interference with other wireless telegraph companies, and also whether the reference would include the words "without prejudice to the patent rights of the Marconi Company."
    *MR. SYDNEYBUXTONsaid he could give no such promise. The Government
    1328
    had promised that a Select Committee should be appointed, and that the whole of the Convention would be referred to them.
    Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

    PUBLIC TRUSTEE BILL [LORDS].
    Considered in Committee:—
    (In the Committee.)
    [Mr. EMMOTT in the Chair.]
    Clause 1:—
    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDmoved to add words to the clause restricting its operation to "cases where the trust property is sworn to be under the value of £500." He said he approached the first Amendment on this most important Bill with great diffidence because the points at issue did not merely touch matters of temporary interest, but dealt in a most vital way with interests of the greatest possible magnitude. Personally he had a very large experience to guide him as to what this section would be likely to do if not amended. There were some hundreds of millions held in this country subject to trusts. Therefore the Bill proposed to deal with a subject of enormous importance to the community, and one the consideration of which should be approached with the utmost care and diffidence. He could understand that a very good case might be made out under certain circumstances for appointing a public trustee to deal with small estates. In regard to small estates under £500 it was frequently necessary to wind them up in a speedy, reasonable and safe manner, and to ensure nothing should be lost by the appointment of a person of little education and position. But that argument did not apply to the larger trust estates where there was no necessity for immediate winding up and where it was often necessary that they should be administered for a long period of time. When he saw the machinery that was proposed to be set up by this Bill, he was anxious to prevent its being applied to the larger estates. He noticed that six kinds of trustees were to be set up—

    1329
    the official trustee, the public trustee, the judicial trustee, the custodian trustee, the ordinary trustee, and the managing trustee. If all those trustees were to be appointed, he could only say God help the estate. He further noticed that a public trustee need not take up an appointment; that he could pick and choose the estate that he would administer, which seemed to him a ridiculous proposal. If the Government were inclined to accept this Amendment it would so modify the measure that almost all the rest of the Bill might be allowed to go through as an experiment. It would be perfectly easy if it were found to work well to extend the limit. But, if the Government did not accept it, it might be necessary to devote some weeks to the Committee stage in order to take the Bill clause by clause and word for word. He was tempted, however, to think that the Government were not serious in taking the Bill at this period of the session, but were only marking time. He noticed in the Bill some indication that certain powers of the Bill should be confined to estates of small value, particularly in regard to Clause 3and the whole of the sub-clauses. He suggested that the whole of the operation of the Bill should be limited to small estates. It would be far easier to extend its operation to larger estates than, in the event of its being a mistake, to turn back after setting up offices and machinery the cost of which no one could tell. The position of this country in respect to its system of dealing with trusts had been for centuries past remarkable as against all other countries in the world. It had created the great investments which were the backbone of our enterprise, and he thought that the unhallowed hand proposed to be laid on this system should be restricted as far as possible.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 1, line 6, at end, to insert the words "for cases where the trust property is sworn to be under the value of five hundred pounds."—(Mr. William Rutherford.)
    Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
    SIR E. CARSONsaid that when a Bill with the same object
    1330
    as the present one was introduced by a private Member in a previous session it received assistance from every quarter of the House. He was quite sure that if hon. Members had read, as he had done, the correspondence in favour of that Bill from numbers of people, rich and poor, throughout the country they would think it a pity that it had not then become law. It had been said that the present Bill was revolutionary and would shake the system of trusts to its foundation. But this was not a compulsory measure, and that fact ought to be borne in mind throughout the discussions. They were not compelling anybody to employ the public trustee; all they were doing was to give people who found very great difficulty, more especially in large estates, in getting people to act as trustees and look properly after the estates, the opportunity of receiving the services of a public official whose duty it would be to take over the ordinary duties of trustee. He saw no reason for limiting the measure to small estates. Undoubtedly the Bill would confer large benefits on poor and rich alike. He would therefore have great pleasure in doing everything he could to promote its passing into law. It had been said that the system of trustees to be set up would involve a considerable cost to the country. That assertion, however, was refuted by the calculations on the subject made by the Treasury before sanctioning the Bill of last year. It had been computed that with a very small percentage of fees on estates, and if a reasonable number of estate, came in, there would be no expense on the public at all as the office would be self-supporting. If he understood the Bill aright the department would not be expensive, because existing offices were to be used. He trusted that the Bill would be passed with the greatest possible speed. It would be a great convenience to the public, it put no compulsion on anybody, and at the same time it relieved many people from grave difficulties.
    *MR. R. PEARCEsaid the hon. Member for the West Derby division of Liverpool had spoken of the estates in trust in the kingdom as amounting to hundreds

    1331
    of millions. That was very far short of the total. The evidence before the Income Tax Committee showed that the income of the country was £1,100,000,000 a year. If they capitalised that at twenty years purchase they would have a sum of £20,000,000,000. He ventured to say that a very large proportion of that—more than a half—was in the hands of trustees and that these trustees managed that vast amount of private property. The proposal of the Bill was that instead of its being managed by private person sat their own expense it should be managed by the State. [Cries of "No."] The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin University had said the cost would not be very great. But there was another element arising from consideration of what had happened in New Zealand which ought not to be lost sight of. When the Bill was introduced the Attorney-General referred to the experience of New Zealand in favour of this proposal. That experience was also referred to in the Report of the Select Committee which reported in 1895. The experience of New Zealand opened up an extremely interesting note to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. New Zealand was very much in want of money. Under the New Zealand law an enormous amount of the private property of the country had been brought into the hands of the Government. Whether that was a desirable thing or not he would not stop at present to consider. The Government of New Zealand had at the present time about 4,000 estates representing a capital value of some £4,000,000. Looking at the process which was gradually going on in this country in connection with the savings of the working classes—
    MR. EUGENE WASONasked whether the hon. Member was in order.
    THE CHAIRMAN: As often happens, a Member came to speak to me privately, and I have not been able to listen to the hon. Member who was speaking.
    *MR. R. PEARCEsaid he was calling attention to the large amount of private property which was already in the lands of the State in the shape of the savings of
    1332
    the working classes, and to the fact that, under the proposal in this Bill, further large sums of money would come into the coffers of the State.
    THE CHAIRMAN: This is not a question of putting property into the hands of the State, and therefore the argument of the hon. Member is not in order.
    *MR. R. PEARCEsaid the trust funds would be guaranteed by the State, and therefore to some extent the State would become liable for all the moneys which came into the hands of the public trustee.
    *THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir John Walton, Leeds, S.)said it was impossible to accept the Amendment, because it was absolutely destructive of the Bill. The hon. Member who moved the Amendment proposed to reduce the application of the measure to estates of the value of £500. Were the mischiefs which were sought to be remedied by this legislation confined to small estates? A person wishing to leave money was anxious that it should be safeguarded, and that the provision he made for his widow or children, when he had gone, might be above the reach of avarice, and might not be subject to dishonesty, carelessness, recklessness, or improvidence. That happened in cases where the estates were over the value of £500. Then there was the difficulty to which the right hon. and learned Member for Dublin University had referred—the difficulty which many persons had in finding someone to fill the position of trustee. The hon. Member for the West Derby Division of Liverpool had said that the measure should be experimental. It would be experimental; it was not compulsory. It was a facility which was demanded and afforded. If the public availed themselves of it, it would be a success, and if they did not, it would be a dead letter. In that way it would be seen whether there was a real necessity for this legislation.
    *MR. RADFORDsaid he was surprised that the hon. and learned Gentleman had not said a word

    1333
    as to the financial effects of this Bill, especially in reference to the appointment of officers in a large number of small towns.
    THE CHAIRMANsaid that that had nothing whatever to do with the Amendment before the Committee.
    *MR. RADFORDsaid that he could not support the Amendment of the hon. Member for Liverpool because he thought that the poor man, of whom the hon. Member said he was particularly solicitous, was not likely to profit by it. The poor man would not know that there was such an official as a Public Trustee. The only man outside the House whom he had met who was in favour of this measure was an ill-conditioned millionaire who thought he had not a friend in the world—and in that opinion he was quite right—and said that he would be glad to have a Public Trustee with the security of public funds to administer his estate.
    *MR. CAVEsaid that he knew only too much of the losses which had been incurred through the defalcations of private trustees. He thought that the provisions of the Bill as to the appointment of a custodian trustee and as to compulsory audit were excellent; but if it was proposed or intended either at once or eventually to hand over a large number of private trusts to a public official, they were, he believed, going in the wrong direction. The appointment of a public trustee should not be the rule but the exception. He agreed that they should limit the size of the estates to be administered by the public trustee as a general trustee, and he had an Amendment on the Paper to that effect. But he thought that the Committee ought to pause before throwing all ordinary trusts into official management. It had been admitted that the present Bill was going to make a revolutionary change—
    THE CHAIRMANsaid that the hon. Gentleman was not now speaking to the Amendment.
    *MR. CAVEsaid he could not support this particular Amendment because it
    1334
    would limit the amount of an estate to be entrusted to the public trustee in his capacity as a custodian trustee.
    *MR. BILLSONsaid he took it it would not be an ordinary testator who would appoint a public trustee. He had known many cases in which men of the world and not ill-conditioned millionaries desired a public trustee to whom to entrust the administration of their estate. The hon. Gentlemen in charge of the Bill had only said that a public trustee should be available into whose hands trust funds might be placed. He should oppose the Amendment.
    *MR. J. M. HENDERSONsaid he was not a great believer in this Bill, but he advised the hon. Member for Liverpool to withdraw his Amendment. If a public trustee were appointed he had always been afraid of a charge being placed each year on the Exchequer to support the large administrative staff that would be required for the work. He was not and never had been opposed to the principle of a public trustee. He asked his hon. friend to withdraw his Amendment because if they were to have a charge on the Exchequer it was better they should get big estates as well as little ones into the hands of the public trustee. The difficulty of getting a private trustee had been spoken of, but there was a limited company registered and called "The Public Trustee, Ltd," and further every insurance company and even banks could be appointed trustees and they would all compete. Therefore if they were going to have the Bill, let the public trustee get as many estates as he could. What he was afraid of was that the public trustee would never have enough estates to pay his expenses. Therefore he asked the hon. Member to withdraw his amendment.
    Mr. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid that the Attorney-General in making an appeal to him rather misunderstood what he had said, because when the Bill passed the Second Reading last year his was the only voice in the House raised against it. He had never assented to the principle of the Bill. The hon. and learned Gentleman had said that there

    1335
    were two reasons why this Bill should apply to large as well as small estates. One was that there was a considerable amount of dishonesty that required to be provided against and that if an official trustee were appointed he might be availed of. He would say that there was not one estate in a thousand in which money was lost through default of the trustee. He did not think that there was any kind of business in the country in which there was less dishonesty and loss of money than in the administration of trust estates, and that spoke well for the country. He had often been nauseated when he saw cases in the newspapers about defaulting trustees, because they had been referred to 500 times before; but on each occasion that case was referred to as if it were a new default. The Attorney-General had said that another reason for passing this Bill was that there was great difficulty in testators finding trustees to administer their estates. That was the case some ten or fifteen years ago because of trustees having been made liable to banks and insurance companies for investments even after they had done their best for the estate of the testator. Therefore they fought shy of accepting trusteeships. But since then the air had been cleared, and his experience which was probably greater than that of, any other Member of the House, was that there was now no difficulty in securing gentlemen to act as trustees for private estates. Another point was that if his Amendment were passed it would not do any damage to the audit clauses of the Bill. He would, however, withdraw the Amendment under compulsion.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 1, line 9, at end, to add "But any instruments sealed by him shall not, by reason of his being a corporation sole, be rendered liable to a higher stamp duty than if he were an individual."—[Mr. William Rutherford.)
    Question "That those words be there added," put and agreed to.
    Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
    Clause 2.
    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDmoved to omit the words "for the purpose of saving expense to persons of small means" in sub-section (a), on the ground that they were unnecessary in that place. He wished to alter the position of the words. At present they simply dominated sub-section (a), but if they were put in the position in which he wished them to be they would dominate sub-sections (a) (b), (c) and (d).
    SIR JOHN WALTONaccepted the Amendment.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 1, lines 14 and 15, to leave out the words 'for the purpose of saving expense to persons of small means."—(Mr. William Rutherford.)
    Amendment agreed to.
    MR. DUNNmoved to omit the words "of small value" in sub-section (a) and insert, "unless the instrument (if any) creating the trust otherwise directs." His object, he said, was to allow the public trustee to administer rich and poor estates alike on the motion of any person who at present had a right to apply for administration to a Court of law. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin University had pointed out that this was not a compulsory provision, but there was distinction between the administration of the estate by the ordinary trusteeship under the Act and the action of a custodian trustee who was voluntarily appointed. It was easy to see at a glance that where they had a legatee who was discontented with his legacy he might, although not entitled to apply for administration in a Court of law, come and set the public trustee in motion, while other persons who might have a larger interest than the person aggrieved might not want to have the public trustee. He knew that the word was "may" and not "shall," but the public trustee "may" move in spite of the objection of those other persons who had a larger interest than the person aggrieved. The

    1337
    Bill provided that the fees paid should be sufficient to discharge the salaries of the officials and other expenses incidental to the working of the Act, and the expenditure might be very large. To a great extent the estates which would come under the management of the trustees would be estates of under £1,000, and this Amendment proposed to do away with that limitation. If the proposal was a good thing for small estates it was a good thing for large estates. If the administration was economical let it also be applied to large as well as to small estates, and then if the experiment was a failure the expense would not fall wholly upon the small estates but upon the large estates also. It was for that reason he proposed this Amendment, so that there should be no difference between rich and poor estates.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In, page 1, lines 15 and 16, to leave out the words 'of am ill value,' and insert the words 'unless the instrument (if any) creating the trust otherwise directs."— (Mr. Dunn.)
    Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
    SIR JOHN WALTONsaid he had some sympathy with the hon. Member, but he could not accept the Amendment. The object of the measure was to put the administration of estates where the trustee became the administrator into an entirely different category from those in which he acted as custodian trustee, and it had been felt that it was desirable that that category should include only estates of a somewhat limited value. That there should be some limit as to the amount of estates to be dealt with under Clause 2 he thought would be apparent if Clause 3 were looked at. That was to say, they might go to the public trustee and point out that they would be entitled to an administration order. That might be an expensive proceeding. That was an important power to give to an official who was not an officer of the Court, and it was obvious that it could not be extended without any sort of limitation. It was obvious also that a summary power of that kind should be limited, and for that reason in Section 3 it had been
    1338
    limited to estates of small amount. He hoped the Amendment would not be pressed.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    *MR. CAVEsaid he now moved his Amendment to limit the power of the public trustee to act as an ordinary trustee to small estates. He had no desire to limit the power of the public trustee to act as custodian trustee, but he did not want to bring about a state of things by which a number of trusts would come into the hands of the public trustee as an ordinary trustee. Everyone knew that millions of money were in the hands of private trustees, and by far the greater part of those trusts were being administered carefully and with every desire to keep to the terms of the trust, and to consider the wishes of the beneficiaries, and were administered at little or no expense. In ninety-nine cases out of a hundred no harm resulted. When a beneficiary desired to change his investments he went to his trustees and put his case before them, and the matter was considered. But if the power were transferred to the public trustee rules would have to be complied with and the investments chosen might be such as would give a small income instead of a large one; the beneficiaries would lose, and nobody would gain except the officials employed in a Government office. He did not think that was a state of things that the country desired. The hon. and learned Gentleman had said that all the Bill did was to enable a testator to appoint the public trustee as his trustee, but that was not so. It went further and enabled the person having power to appoint new trustees, to appoint the public trustee, and it enabled a beneficiary to go to the Court and ask for the appointment of this public trustee. This was an experiment, and the Government had very properly limited the amount in respect to the administration of estates, and he did not see why they should not limit the amount in regard to ordinary private trusts. He asked the Committee to consider whether it was not a wise thing to do. He did not propose to put so small a limit as that moved by his hon. friend on a

    1339
    previous Amendment, but he proposed by a subsequent Amendment to limit it to estates not exceeding £2,000. With the hope that the hon. and learned Gentleman would give it his careful attention, he begged to move.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 1, line 18, after the word 'trustee' to insert the words 'in cases where the trust property is of small value."—(Mr. Cave.)
    Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
    SIR JOHN WALTONsaid the proposal was one of weight, but he felt it would be unwise to fetter by this financial limit the discretion of the Court, or of the public trustee, or to limit the rules which the Lord Chancellor might make in the matter. The adoption of the Amendment would leave many estates outside the reach of this beneficial legislation, and would largely curtail its useful experimental character.
    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid it would relieve the anxieties of many Members on both sides of the House if the hon. and learned Gentleman would give some indication of whether he would limit the operation of the ordinary trustee to some reasonable amount of estate. If he could give some idea that. an Amendment would, either at this or some subsequent stage of the Bill, be accepted, it would relieve them of a good deal of anxiety. With regard to larger estates, the Bill, it was quite clear, should be experimental.
    Question put, and negatived.
    SIR JOHN WALTONmoved an Amendment to enable the public trustee to take possession of the estates of persons convicted of a felony, and whose estates were in the hands of the Crown.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page, 1 line 19, at end to insert—(e) be appointed to be the administrator of the property of a convict under the Forfeiture for Felony Act, 1870."—(Sir John Walton.)
    Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
    MR. DUNNmoved an Amendment to prevent the trustee refusing to take up an estate because of the character or disposition of the cestuique trust or beneficiary. There were persons who would go two or three times a day to know how a trust was progressing and such persons would be known to the public trustee, but he did not think it would be right for him to say, "I will have nothing to do with this estate, because if I do I shall be pestered to death." In order that the public trustee might not pick and choose, he moved the Amendment.
    Amendment proposed—
    " "In page 2, line 9, after the word 'property,' to insert the words 'or the character or disposition of the cestuique trust or beneficiary."—(Mr. Dunn.)
    SIR JOHN WALTONexplained that the words were necessary.
    MR. DUNNasked leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid the next three Amendments standing in his name practically amounted to a Motion to leave out all the words in sub-section (4) after the word "business."In the first place there was no indication whatever as to what rules might be made although reference was made "to rules under this Act."
    SIR JOHN WALTONsaid the rules which the Lord Chancellor would make under this section were simply rules to allow the business to be carried on.
    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid if the intention in these rules was to confine the expenditure to cases where the business was carried on simply for the purpose of winding up such business there could be no objection to the words remaining.
    *MR. R. PEARCEasked why the words "except for the purpose of winding up such business" should not be inserted if that was all that was intended. He would move the insertion of such words.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 2, line 11, after the word 'business' to insert the words 'except for the purpose of winding up such business."—(Mr. R. Pearce.)
    Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
    SIR JOHN WALTONpointed out that the insertion of these words was not required to secure the object of the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDmove to leave out the words "nor any trust under a deed of arrangement for the benefit of credtiors." If the words in question were to make it clear that the public trustee was not to become the liquidator of the estate, he agreed with them, but if they were to have a more extended application, and prevent the public trustee from undertaking any trust where there happened to be a trust for payment of debts or expenses he thought the words would be found to be very objectionable and would probably lead to a mass of litigation. He certainly thought the public trustee should have the right to refuse in his district any kind of trust so long as it was understood that he was not going to be a winder-up. If he took that attitude, there was no occasion to insert these words which might create a confusion which was entirely unnecessary.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 2, lines 13 and 14, to leave out the words 'nor any trust under a deed of arrangement for the benefit of creditors."—(Mr. William Rutherford.)
    "Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
    SIR JOHN WALTONthought the hon. Member would recognise that a technical expression appeared in the matter which was quite intelligible to persons engaged in the practice of the law. It would not do to deprive persons of the right to have an estate administered in this way simply because there were trusts in settlement, but he did not think such a settlement
    1342
    could be properly described as a deed of arrangement, and it was intended that the function of the public trustee should be kept as widely as possible apart from the functions of the official liquidator or the trustee in bankruptcy or from functions which were connected with the winding-up of insolvent estates. The words had been used with that object.
    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDbegged leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDmoved an Amendment to leave out the words which provided that the public trustee should not accept any trust which involved the administration of an insolvent estate. He said in a very large number of cases estates which were understood to be solvent turned out to be insolvent and vice versa.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 2, line 14, to leave out the words 'nor the administration of any insolvent estate."—(Mr. William Rutherford.)
    Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
    SIR JOHN WALTONsaid he quite appreciated the point, and he was prepared to accept the Amendment of the hon. Member for Watford if that would meet the point.
    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid that quite met the point, and he would ask permission to withdraw his Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 2, line 14, to leave out the words 'insolvent estate,' and to insert the words 'estate known or believed by him to be insolvent."—(Mr, Micklem.)
    Amendment agreed to.
    Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
    Clause 3:—
    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDmoved to omit the words in the first line "apply to" for the purpose of substituting "an order of."Anybody was entitled to apply for, although they might not be entitled to an order, and those who were to have this privilege ought to be the persons who were entitled to an order, which was quite a different thing. Although this Amendment looked simple as far as the words were concerned, it was nevertheless of considerable importance.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 2, line 22, to leave out the words 'apply to,' and insert the words 'an order of."—(Mr. William Rutherford.)
    Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
    SIR JOHN WALTONadmitted that the words of the clause were open to misconception. He suggested that they should omit the words "entitled to apply to" in order to insert "who in the opinion of the public trustee would be entitled to an order of."
    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid he was willing to accept those words, and asked leave to withdraw his Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 2, line 22, to leave out the words 'entitled to apply to,' and insert the words 'who in the opinion of the public trustee would be entitled to an order of."—(Sir John Walton.)
    Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
    MR. MICKLEMpointed out that at the present time nobody was entitled to an order, and all that they had was a right to apply. He suggested that the words should be "any person who, in the opinion of the public trustee, is entitled to apply for an order of."
    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid the Attorney-General's words were quite
    1344
    satisfactory, and if they were found to be unsuitable they could be put right on the Report stage. Any person who was reasonably entitled to an order should be at liberty to apply.
    *MR. BERTRAMsaid there was a great difference between a man making an application and being entitled to make an application. The words suggested by the hon. Member for Watford would limit the privilege to the person who was entitled to apply for an order. No one was nowadays entitled, as of right, to an order for administration, and the class of persons entitled to apply for such an order was strictly limited and easily ascertained.
    *MR. R. PEARCEsaid it was very desirable that beneficiaries should be entitled to apply for an order asking the public trustee to take up the administration of a small estate.
    SIR JOHN WALTONsaid that, upon reflection, he felt inclined to adopt the words suggested by the hon. Member for Watford, and he hoped the hon. Member for the West Derby Division of Liverpool would be satisfied with the alteration. He begged leave to withdraw his Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 2, line 22, to leave out the words 'entitled to apply to,' and to insert the words 'in the opinion of the public trustee would be entitled to apply for an order of."—(Sir John Walton.)
    Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid he was sorry that the Attorney-General had allowed himself to be talked out of his own Amendment by an hon. Member behind him. He withdrew his own Amendment in favour of that proposed by the Attorney-General, and he thought it was rather unfair to him that the hon. and learned Gentleman should now withdraw his Amendment. The effect of the original Amendment was—
    THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: We cannot go into the effect of the original Amendment which was withdrawn.
    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORD: On a point of order. I am entitled to have my original Amendment reinstated.
    THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: No, it cannot be reinstated; it was withdrawn.
    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid his Amendment was withdrawn on a promise which had not been carried out.
    Question put and negatived.
    Words proposed there inserted.
    Amendments proposed—
    "In page 2, line 23, after the second 'the' to insert the word 'gross."
    "In page 2, line 27, after the word 'persons' to insert the words 'other than creditors."—(Mr. Micklem.)
    Amendments agreed to.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 2, line 27, after the word 'creditors' to insert the word 'beneficially."
    Question, "That the word 'beneficially' be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid the next Amendment he had to propose was to make it clear that an estate, whether it was worth £50 or £950, should be administered by the person whom the testator had appointed, or the trustees of a settlement, unless it could be made manifest to the public trustee that the estate would be mal-administered, and that someone would be injured if he did not take it over. He hoped the Attorney-General would accept the Amendment.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 2, line 28, after the word 'means' to insert the words 'and that the estate would be likely to be mal-administered otherwise."—(Mr. William Rutherford.)
    Question proposed, "That the words be there inserted."
    *SIR JOHN WALTONsaid that the Amendment would unduly limit the scope and object of the clause, which was intended not only to provide a method of administration in reference to estates in danger of mal-administration, but also to provide a cheap method of administration in small estates as an alternative to what would be a more elaborate and costly system. Moreover, the Amendment would impose upon the public trustee an invidious duty without giving him the means by which he could make the necessary inquiries.
    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid that the Courts to-day never made an order for the administration of any estate, however small, unless it could be shown that there was some reason to suspect that something was wrong in the action of the trustees appointed by the testator. That was all that he wanted. For half a century they had been trying to release themselves from official control in the management of estates. He knew that it was no use his going to a division, but he wished to raise his solemn protest against the Government's handing over the administration of small estates to officials without any suggestion that there was likely to be mal-administration.
    Question put, and negatived.
    *MR. BERTRAMmoved an Amendment to provide that on the public trustee's undertaking to administer an estate, the trust property, other than stock, should vest in him. This would bring the wording of the clause into line with the Trustee Act 1893, and the Definitions Clause at the end of the Bill.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 2, line 32, to leave out from the word 'estate' and to insert the words

    1347
    'trust property other than stock."—(Mr. Bertram.)
    Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
    Question put, and negatived.
    SIR JOHN WALTONaccepted the Amendment.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 2, line 35, to leave out the word 'a,' and insert the words 'as if vesting orders had been made."—(Mr. Bertram.)
    Amendment agreed to.
    MR. MICKLEMsaid it was quite certain that under the Bill questions might arise between the original trustees and the public trustee. The Amendment which he proposed to add to sub-section (2) provided for an indemnity to the original trustees at the time when the trust was handed over to the public trustee, except in respect of past acts.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 2, line 37, at end, to add the words, 'and from such vesting any trustee entitled under the trust to administer the estate shall be discharged from all liability attaching to the administration, except in respect of past acts."—(Mr. Micklem.)
    Question proposed, "That the words to there inserted."
    SIR JOHN WALTONsaid he did not think the words were required, but he saw no objection to accepting them.
    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDmoved to leave out sub-section (3), which provided that the public trustee might exercise such of the powers of the High Court as might be conferred upon him, subject to certain conditions. He said that in a few years the public trustee would have become a Judge
    1348
    having the powers of the High Court. The effect of the proposal would be to establish another set of judicial functionaries in the kingdom. The public trustee would have to deal with small estates in Cornwall and Yorkshire, and if the Act were extended to Ireland and Scotland, with that class of estates in remote parts of Ireland or Aberdeen. Naturally the public trustee would have his office in London. The result would be that all the advantage we now had of using the County Courts for dealing with small estates would be lost. Applications in regard to estates of under £50 would have to be made in London, and probably another large public office would have to be built in Whitehall to accommodate the public trustee and his assistants. By this means the Government would create the most difficult, and most absurd tribunal which by legislation it had ever been sought to set up in this country. He could not too strongly protest, not only against the appointment of this public trustee, who was to be given judicial functions, but against a single official being appointed to sit in London to deal with estates all over the country. He objected to judicial powers being given to one man who would be trusted alone to deal with matters. They had come to a point where it seemed to him they ought to protest as strongly as they could against the provisions of the Bill.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 2, line 28, to leave out sub-section (3)."—(Mr. William Rutherford.)
    Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
    *SIR JOHN WALTONsaid the whole object of the clause was to lead to simplicity and economy and to prevent estates being wound up in Chancery. Under these circumstances the public trustee, who would be responsible, must as a matter of administration have some powers to enable him to discharge his duties.
    MR. MICKLEMhad great difficulty in seeing the necessity for the clause or its beneficial nature. He thought the clause might be omitted.
    *MR. BERTRAMwished to say a word in favour of the clause. It was often necessary, even in the case of very small estates, to make applications to the Court for leave to take some formal step, and it was desirable that power should be given to the official trustee to do what might be necessary without going to the High Court.
    *MR. J. M. HENDERSONpointed out that it was provided that the Act should not apply to Ireland or Scotland as hon. Members seemed to assume. He did not understand what were the powers to be given to the official trustee. If he was to have judicial functions he disagreed, but if he was to have administrative powers he agreed to that proposal.
    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDreiterated that if these powers were conferred upon a single individual sitting in London to deal with small estates the effect would be that the jurisdiction of the County Court would be ousted. The whole policy of the legal system of the country was to bring justice home to the doors of the people. If this matter were referred to a Central Board in London, it would not be satisfactory, and in the end they would have to have a hydra-headed trustee with a representative in every town. If this proposal were carried it would mean that they would have to have a new Chancery Judge sitting in London to deal with small estates. For these reasons he respectfully insisted upon his Amendment.
    MR. DUNNsaid they had been assured by the Attorney-General that the clause was merely a matter of administration and did not confer judicial power. He suggested that they should, after the first "the" in line 39, insert "administration."
    THE CHAIRMANsaid that if the Amendment before the Committee was withdrawn that Amendment could be moved.
    SIR E. CARSONurged the acceptance of the suggested alternative Amendment.
    SIR JOHN WALTONsaid he would consent to the words suggested in amendment of that sub-section.
    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid he would withdraw his Amendment if the words suggested were inserted.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Amendment proposed—
    In page 2, line 39, after the first 'the' to insert the word 'administration."—(Mr. Dunn.)
    Amendment agreed to.
    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDmoved to leave out all the words after "administration." He said if these words were left out and the clause ended with the word "administration"it would meet every purpose. If the opinion of the High Court had to be taken it was obvious that there must be some amount of judicial proceeding. Again, it was perfectly obvious that whatever rules were made a certain amount of expense and complication was bound to arise. If the rules were made with intelligence they would make the procedure as simple and inexpensive as possible. But why should they complicate the matter by putting into the Bill words of the sort he proposed to leave out. Why not say the rules should be made in order to enable the trustee to obtain the opinion of the High Court? He begged to move.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 3, line 3, to leave out from the word 'administration,' to end of sub-section."—(Mr. William Rutherford.)
    Question proposed, "That the word proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
    *SIR JOHN WALTONsaid the object of this clause might be very briefly stated. If no rules were prepared and no power was to be given to the public trustee to obtain the opinion of the Court in the inception of a matter he would only be able to approach the tribunal in the ordinary way as a private trustee, which

    1351
    might be a more or less costly proceeding. In dealing with these small estates it was hoped to escape all that expense and therefore it was provided that the opinion of the Court might be obtained by this official without resort to the same proceeding as the private trustee. Under ordinary circumstances the procedure would be prescribed by the rules. He imagined that the result would be that the public trustee might have a right to resort to the Court, it might be by some document which might raise a point of law, without expense. He could not imagine why anyone who desired to ensure inexpensive administration of these estates should seek to omit these words. He hoped the hon. Gentleman would not press the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    MR. DUNNmoved to substitute "estate being under the value of £1,000" for the words "small value of estate." That, he thought, would get rid of the objection of leaving the Court to decide the very difficult question of what was a small estate. He moved.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 3, lines 7 and 8, to leave out the words 'small value of the estate,' and insert the words 'Estate being less than £1,000."—(Mr. Dunn.)
    Question proposed, "That the word 'small' stand part of the Clause."
    SIR JOHN WALTONsaid the hon. Gentleman by this Amendment sought unduly to fetter the discretion of the Court. He would have observed that this clause dealt with an entirely different state of things from that with which the public trustee had to deal in the earlier part of the Bill. That was to say, that in an application to the Court he would prevent the Judge coming to the conclusion that the estate was a small estate, that the people were poor people, that this would cause a great expense, and that under the circumstances it was advisable that the estate should be handed over to the public trustee.
    MR. DUNNsaid he quite appreciated the point. He had intended his Amend-
    1352
    ment to be an extending Amendment, but in the form it was moved it became a restricting Amendment, and he therefore begged leave to withdraw it.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Clause 3, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid he understood that the limit of £1,000 applied to the whole of Clause 3, because although the capital value was first mentioned in the second line of the first sub-section, the whole clause was headed "in the administration of small estates." If that was so it would meet all the difficulties which the hon. Member for Camborne raised by his Amendment. When there was a clause with two or three sub-sections, and one referred to a £1,000 limit, whilst in the other cases there were only general words about the smallness of the estate, they might be held to refer to estates under £100. Was it understood that £1,000 was to refer to the whole of the sub-sections?
    SIR E. CARSONhoped the Attorney-General would adhere to the clause as it stood. It might be that the Court found that there was nothing to be done but pure administration; and it was almost a disgrace to keep the matter in the Courts, involving expense, when it could be handed over to somebody and the money divided in accordance with the wishes of the testator.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Clause 4:—
    MR. MICKLEMmoved an Amendment to provide that the public trustee might be appointed to be custodian trustee of any trust in any case where the Court was of opinion that, having regard to the nature of the trust estate or its protection or security, or the wishes of the beneficiaries, such an appointment was desirable. As the Bill was drafted there was nothing to indicate on what principle the order should proceed. He thought there ought to be some indication on the face of the Act as to the grounds for the appointment.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 3, line 23, after the word 'trustee,' to insert the words 'in any case where the Court shall be of opinion that, having regard to the nature of the trust estate, or its protection or security or the wishes of the beneficiaries, such an appointment is desirable."—(Mr. Micklem.)
    Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
    SIR JOHN WALTONagreed that the considerations in the Amendment were such as would influence the Court in making an order for the appointment. They were obvious considerations, and he could not understand how any applications could be determined without regard being paid to them. Therefore he did not agree that the words were necessary, and that being so, they were dangerous, because the moment they began to specify considerations they were apt to be construed as the only considerations that ought to be regarded.
    Question put, and negatived.
    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDmoved to leave out sub-section (c), which prescribes one of the methods by which the custodian trustee may be appointed, namely, "by the person having power to appoint new trustees."There were, he said, three ways of appointing a custodian trustee. The first was that in which the Court made an order, the second in which the testator, settler, or other creator of any trust appointed the trustee, and the third, which he desired to leave out, by the person having power to appoint new trustees. The effect of this section, if passed, would be that a trustee on a large estate might want to get rid of his trust, possibly under circumstances in which he ought not to Should there be a right to complicate the trust at an inconvenient juncture? Was the individual to import one or other of these fancy trustees into that particular trust? It was perfectly unreasonable to allow the retiring trustee, who would in ninety-nine cases out of a hundred be the person referred to in sub-section (c), to anyhow the estate was to be conducted is the future.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 3, line 25, to leave out sub-section (c)."—(Mr. William Rutherford.)
    Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
    MR. EUGENE WASONsaid that if the hon. Gentleman would refer back to the beginning of the clause he would see that the public trustee would only consent to the appointment in question if he thought fit, so that there was no obligation upon him. He begged the hon. Member to allow the Bill to proceed.
    SIR E. CARSONsaid that where a person having power to appoint new trustees came to the conclusion that the public trustee was the best possible person to appoint, he ought to appoint him.
    MR. MICKLEMsaid that if the testator or settler deliberately left out the public trustee, it was a strange thing to say that a person who had only a modified interest in the estate, but had power of appointment, should appoint the public trustee, and thus take the property out of the hands of the managing trustees.
    Amendment negatived.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 3, line 25, after the word 'trustees' to insert the words 'if expressly authorised in that behalf by the will, settlement, or other instrument creating the trust."—(Mr. Micklem.)
    Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
    SIR E. CARSONopposed the Amendment on the ground that if it were accepted the Bill would not operate in respect of existing wills and settlements, In case a testator who had no opportunity of judging did not put into the will the words here proposed, there would be no alternative but to appoint probably a man of straw, although there was the Government official who might be appointed and who would keep the property perfectly safe.
    SIR JOHN WALTONsaid it would be a relief to the trustees to have some person who could be charged with the

    1355
    custody of the property. The balance of the argument was in favour of leaving the sub-section as it stood.
    *MR. J. M. HENDERSONsaid that this provision provided that any trustee should be able to go to the public trustee and get him appointed as the custodian trustee, and so remove the securities out of danger, which was one of the great objects they had in view in this Bill.
    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid it had been stated that this clause would enable a trustee who was dissatisfied
    with a co-trustee to require a custodian trustee to be appointed. That was exactly what the clause did not do. There was not one word in it which enabled one of the trustees to make the other trustee do anything at all. He was very much in favour of the words of the Amendment, as it would have the effect of preventing hardships which might otherwise arise.
    Question put.
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 17; Noes, 213. (Division List No. 500.)

    AYES.

    Banner, John S. Harmood-

    Keswick, William

    Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

    Beckett, Hon. Gervase

    Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

    Walker, Col. W. H.(Lancashire)

    Berridge, T. H. D.

    Radford, G. H.

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Boyle, Sir Edward

    Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

    Bull, Sir William James

    Salter, Arthur Clavell

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Fell, Arthur

    Scott, Sir S. (Marlyebone, W.)

    Mr. Micklem and Mr. Watson Rutherford.

    Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

    Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)

    NOES.

    Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex. F

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Hamilton, Marquess of

    Adkins, W. Ryland D.

    Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

    Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

    Agnew, George William

    Cawley, Sir Frederick

    Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil

    Ainsworth, John Stirling

    Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

    Hart-Davis, T.

    Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J A (Worc.)

    Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

    Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

    Chance, Frederick William

    Harwood, George

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Channing, Sir Francis Allston

    Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

    Armitage, R.

    Cheetham, John Frederick

    Haworth, Arthur A.

    Astbury, John Meir

    Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

    Hazel, Dr. A. E.

    Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

    Cleland, J. W.

    Hedges, A. Paget

    Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.

    Clough, William

    Helme, Norval Watson

    Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

    Clynes, J. R.

    Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

    Banbury, Sir Frederick George

    Cobbold, Felix Thornley

    Henderson, J. M.(Aberdeen, W.

    Baring, Godfrey(Isle of Wight)

    Collins, Sir W.(J.(S. Pancras, W

    Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.)

    Barker, John

    Cooper, G. J.

    Hervey, F. W.F.(Bury S. Edm'ds

    Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

    Corbett, CH (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

    Higham, John Sharp

    Barnes, G. N.

    Cowan, W. H.

    Hills, J. W.

    Barran, Rowland Hirst

    Cox, Harold

    Hobart, Sir Robert

    Beauchamp, E.

    Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

    Hogan, Michael

    Beaumont, Hn. H. (Eastbourne)

    Cremer, William Randal

    Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N

    Beaumont, Hn. W. C.B. (Hexham

    Crooks, William

    Horniman, Emslie John

    Bell, Richard

    Crossley, William J.

    Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

    Bennett, E. N.

    Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

    Hudson, Walter

    Bertram, Julius

    Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness)

    Hunt, Rowland

    Billson, Alfred

    Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

    Idris, T. H. W.

    Black, Alexander Wm. (Banff.)

    Essex, R. W.

    Jackson, R. S.

    Boland, John

    Fenwick, Charles

    Jardine, Sir J.

    Bowerman, C. W.

    Everett, R. Lacey

    Johnson, John (Gateshead)

    Brace, William

    Ferens, T. R.

    Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

    Bramsdon, T. A.

    Ffrench, Peter

    Jones, Sir D. Brynmor(Swansea

    Branch, James

    Findlay, Alexander

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    Brigg, John

    Fullerton, Hugh

    Kekewich, Sir George

    Brooke, Stopford

    Gilhooly, James

    Kincaid-Smith, Captain

    Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

    Gill, A. H.

    Laidlaw, Robert

    Burns, Rt. Hon. John

    Ginnell, L.

    Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

    Burnyeat, W. J. D.

    Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert Jn.

    Lambert, George

    Byles, William Pollard

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

    Cairns, Thomas

    Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

    Lee, ArthurH.(Hants., Fareham

    Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    Lehmann, R. C.

    Carlile, E. Hildred

    Gwynn, Stephen Lucius

    Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich

    Carr-Gomm, H. W.

    Halpin, J.

    Levy, Maurice

    Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

    Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

    Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

    Lough, Thomas

    Reddy, M.

    Sullivan, Donal

    Lundon, W.

    Redmond, John E.(Waterford)

    Summerbell, T.

    Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

    Redmond, William (Clare)

    Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

    MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.

    Rendall, Athelstan

    Tomkinson, James

    M'Callum, John M.

    Richards, Thomas(W. Monm'th

    Toulmin, George

    M'Crae, George

    Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n

    Trevelyan, Charles Philips

    M'Kean, John

    Richardson, A.

    Ure, Alexander

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Valentia, Viscount

    M'Killop, W.

    Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

    Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

    M'Micking, Major G.

    Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

    Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

    Maddison, Frederick

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

    Ward, Jn. (Stoke upon Trent)

    Manfield, Harry (Northants)

    Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

    Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

    Marks, G. Croydon(Launceston)

    Robinson, S.

    Waterlow, D. S.

    Massie, J.

    Robson, Sir William Snowdon

    Watt, H. Anderson

    Mond, A.

    Rogers, F. E. Newman

    Wedgwood, Josiah C.

    Money, L. G. Chiozza

    Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

    White, George (Norfolk)

    Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

    Scott, A.H. (Ashton under Lyne

    White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

    Murphy, John

    Seddon, J.

    White, Patrick (Meath, North)

    Nicholson, Chas. N.(Doncast'r

    Seely, Major J. B.

    Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

    Nolan, Joseph

    Shackleton, David James

    Wills, Thomas

    Norton, Capt. Cecil William

    Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R..

    O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

    Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    Sherwell, Arthur James

    Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

    O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Winfrey, R.

    O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N

    Silcock, Thoms Ball

    Wood, T. M'Kinnon

    Parker, James (Halifax)

    Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

    Partington, Oswald

    Soares, Ernest J.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Herbert Lewis.

    Paul, Herbert

    Spicer, Sir Albert

    Power, Patrick Joseph

    Steadman, W. C.

    Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

    Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

    Rainy, A. Rolland

    Strachey, Sir Edward

    Lords Amendments to be considered forthwith; considered, and agreed to.

    MR. MICKLEMsaid he understood the Attorney-General intended to accept his next Amendment.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 3, line 34, to leave out sub-section (b) and insert, '(b) As between the custodian trustee and the managing trustees, and subject and without prejudice to the rights of any other persons, the custodian trustee shall have the custody of all documents of title relating to the trust property."—(Mr. Micklem.)
    Question proposed, "That sub-section (b) of Clause 4 stand part of the Clause."
    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid it was quite clear that this Amendment ought to be adopted, because there were numerous cases in which the managing trustees had not the custody of all documents.
    Question put, and negatived.
    Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
    *MR. BERTRAMmoved to insert in line 3 of the Amendment after the word 'all' the words 'securities and,' in order to provide that stock certificates and
    1358
    bonds should be included as well as legal documents and title deeds.
    Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
    "In line 3, after the word 'all,' to insert 'securitiesand."—(Mr. Bertram.)
    Words proposed, as amended, there inserted.
    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid he hoped the Attorney-General would see his way to accept his next Amendment which entitled the managing trustee to have access to all documents, and to take extracts from them.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 3, line 35, at end, to insert the words 'but all interested parties, including the ordinary trustees and the managing trustees, shall have free access thereto, and be entitled to take copies or extracts thereof."—(Mr. William Rutherford.)
    SIR JOHN WALTONsaid he would certainly accept the latter part of the

    1359
    Amendment which, would enact that the managing trustees should have free access to the documents and be entitled to take copies of and extracts from them. If the hon. Member would limit his Amendment to those words he would accept it.
    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid he would move the Amendment in that way.
    THE CHAIRMANsaid the best way would be for the hon. Gentleman to withdraw his Amendment and move it in its altered form.
    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid he would withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 3, line 35, at the end, to insert the words, 'but the managing trustees shall have free access thereto, and be entitled to take copies or extracts thereof."—(Mr. William Rutherford.)
    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDmoved the omission of the words providing, that the custodian trustee should not concur in any act the effect of which might be to vest in him property involving a personal liability on him in respect of calls on shares. He did not see why the trustee should take over the whole estate and leave out shares as to which there might be only a nominal liability.
    SIR JOHN WALTONaccepted the Amendment.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 4, to leave out lines 10 to 14 inclusive."—(Mr. William Rutherford.)
    Amendment agreed to.
    Amendments proposed—
    "In page 4, line 14, to leave out sub-section (e)."—(Mr. Micklem.)
    "In page 4, line 28, after the word 'direct,' to insert the words 'or into such bank to the credit of such person as they may direct."—(Mr. William Rutherford.)
    "In page 5, line 16, to leave out sub-section, (3), and insert, '(3) The provisions of this section shall apply to any banking or insurance company or other body corporate entitled by rules made under this Act to act as custodian trustee, with power for such company or body corporate to charge and retain or pay out of the trust property fees not exceeding the fees chargeable by the public trustee as custodian trustee."—(Mr. Micklem.)
    Amendments agreed to.
    MR. DUNNmoved that an Amendment to provide that solicitors might become custodian trustees. He said he moved this Amendment because custodian trustees had for the first time been given a legal status. The Government had recognised the advisability of appointing bankers and insurance companies, and a clause had been inserted for the purpose. There was a body of men known as "family solicitors"who had practically been custodian trustees for many years. It might be said that some of them had abused their trusts, but they were exceptions and exceptions were not the rule. He proposed by this Amendment to permit the Court to appoint a solicitor as a custodian trustee, and he safe-guarded matters by directing that he should give such security as the Court might direct in making the appointment. He hoped the Attorney-General would accept the Amendment which, in practice, he thought would be found very advantageous.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 5, line 31, to insert the words, 'Provided that any solicitor may be appointed custodian trustee provided he gives security for the due administration of the trust in such manner and for such amount as the order making the appointment shall direct."—(Mr. Dunn.)
    Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
    *SIR JOHN WALTONsaid the acceptance of the Amendment would be unfortunate from the point of view

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    of the inference that might be drawn from it. It would be invidious to suggest that members of an honourable profession should be compelled to give security. By this Bill they were only providing for a public trustee acting as a custodian trustee. They were making a provision for safeguarding the trust where persons were dissatisfied. In such a case it was desirable that the property should go into the hands of a public official. The only reason for the insertion of the clause was that it was part of the business of bankers and insurance societies to take charge of securities and valuables of all sorts. A solicitor might be a poor man, though he was none the worse for that, with only one small room, which he occupied himself, and no place in which to keep property or securities. He saw no reason why solicitors should wish to become mere custodians of property over which they had no function of administration.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Clause 4, agreed to as amended.
    Clause 5:—
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 5, line 41, after the words 'new trustee' to insert the words 'or as an additional trustee."—(Mr. Hills.)
    Amendment agreed to.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 6, line 9, to leave out subsection (3),"—(Mr. Dunn.)
    Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
    SIR E. CARSONsaid if they took away from the testator the right of handing over the property to the public trustee they would seriously infringe one of the main principles of the Bill.
    MR. MICKLEMhoped the Committee would not agree to allow this sub-section to be omitted.
    SIR JOHN WALTONsaid he could not agree to the Amendment.
    MR. DUNNasked leave to withdraw his Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 6, line 12, to leave out the words 'unless the court otherwise order."—(Mr. Micklem.)
    Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
    SIR JOHN WALTONsaid he could not accept this Amendment.
    MR. R. PEARCEsupported the Amendment.
    Amendment negitived.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 6, line 20, to leave out the words 'one week,' and insert the words 'twenty-one days."—(Mr. Micklem.)
    Amendment agreed to.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 6, line 23, to leave out from the word 'made,' to end of sub-section, and insert the words, 'a person dealing in good faith with the public trustee is not concerned to inquire respecting the giving of any such notice as is required by this section."—(Mr. Micklem.)
    SIR JOHN WALTONsaid that serious consequences might follow from the adoption of this Amendment, and he could not accept it.
    MR. MICKLEMasked leave to withdraw his Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Amendments proposed—
    "In page 6, line 26, after the word 'trustee,' to insert the word 'or."
    "In page 6, line 26, to leave out the words 'or next person in the entail."
    "In page 6, line 27, to leave out the word 'in,' and to insert the word 'under."—(Mr. Micklem.)
    "In page 6, line 30, after the word 'accordingly,' to insert the words 'even though there is no vacancy."—(Mr. Hills.)
    Amendments agreed to.
    Clause 5, as amended agreed to.
    Clause 6 agreed to.
    THE CHAIRMAN: The Amendments to Clause 7 must be held over until the other clauses have been disposed of.
    Clause 8:—
    *MR. R. PEARCEmoved to add the words:—"But no such appointment shall be made, nor salary or fees be provided out of taxes, while the other charges on such taxes exceed £100,000,000 in the year." His only anxiety was that they should redeem the pledges which they gave at the general election. There was hardly a Member sitting on the Ministerial side of the House who did not issue placards and circulars calling attention to the extraordinary increase of expenditure during the last few years. A good deal yet remained to be done before they reduced the expenditure to the extent continually referred to at the election. To establish a new department and create a large number of public trustees all over the country to manage private trusts at the expense of the public purse was hardly the way to begin a career of economy such as
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    that to which hon. Members were pledged. In the present session the House had already voted £1,000,000 a year as the price of the settlement of the education question. Was there any way during this long and extraordinary session in which the House had saved a single pound per annum beyond a small amount in Army and Navy expenditure? The Bill meant no benefit to the people. He ventured to say that the wage-earning class that would come within the purview of the Bill was very small in comparison with the persons of means whose estates were well able to pay the expenses of administration. He would be ashamed to go to his constituents and tell them that he had voted for the management of private property at the public cost while children were not fed and while old age—
    *MR. BERTRAMasked whether it was in order to discuss the general taxation of the country.
    THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member must cease to discuss these outside matters, and confine himself absolutely to his Amendment.
    *MR. R. PEARCEsaid he was not discussing the general taxation of the country when he pointed out that there were claims of a pecuniary kind for the benefit of all classes.
    THE CHAIRMAN: That has nothing to do even with the form of the Amendment. The hon. Member must entirely avoid the question of the other purposes on which money could be spent.
    *MR. R. PEARCEsaid it was his duty to call attention to the fact that there

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    would be startling expenditure under the Bill at a time when members of the House had not been able to keep their promises to the country in respect of the reduction of expenditure generally. The nearest analogy that he could give to the present proposals was the case of the Charity Commissioners who managed public trusts. That Commission cost the State £40,000 a year. If this Amendment were not accepted by the Government there would be an expenditure of something like that sum. That would be an addition to the national expenditure, and he thought he might rest his case on that fact in view of the pledges which had been given to the country. He wondered how those who had pledged themselves to bring about economies would be able to justify their action in voting for the erection of a great State department of this kind for the management of private trusts at the public expense. If the general expenditure were reduced to £100,000,000 they would perhaps be justified in undertaking this new expenditure. He appealed to the Government not to create a new department, which would involve the expenditure of money which was wanted for other and more urgent matters.
    THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is again beginning to talk about the Bill. I warn him that he is becoming highly irrelevant; he must keep to his Amendment.
    Amendment moved—
    "In page 7, line 36, at the end, to add the words 'But no such appointment shall be made, nor salary or fees be provided out of taxes, while the other charges on such taxes exceed £100,000,000 in the year."
    Question proposed, "That those Words be there inserted."
    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid he thought the Attorney-General would have had something to say in regard to this most important point. He was entirely in sympathy with the Amendment, though he thought an extraordinary impasse would be created if they were to say that no salary or fees should be provided out of taxes to the holder of the office of public trustee "while the other charges on such taxes exceed £100,000,000 in the year"when they knew that the present Government had not the slightest intention of so reducing public expenditure. He thought they were entitled to some information as to what the Government proposed to spend on this important new scheme. The cost of the Charity Commission was upwards of £40,000 a year, and they carried on their business exclusively in London. In connection with the public trustee's department there must be offices all over the country involving heavy cost on the Treasury. He believed the department would cost £240,000 a year.
    THE CHAIRMAN: It does not seem to me that the hon. Gentleman is in order. The clause says—
    "The Lord Chancellor shall appoint a fit person to the office of public trustee, who shall hold office during pleasure, and receive such salary or fees and be appointed on such terms as the Treasury may determine."
    The Amendment is to add some words at the end. I think the hon. Member is not talking about that.
    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid all he wanted from the hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill was some information as to the expenses involved. He did not think the clause should be passed sub silentio.
    Question put, and negatived.
    MR. RADFORDmoved an Amendment that the officers of the Public Trustee, who were not already in the public service, should be appointed by the Treasury after open competition, the same as in the Civil Service. His reason for asking for support for his Amendment was, first, that the system of open competition for posts in the Civil Service was an excellent one; secondly, because the patronage of the Lord Chancellor, which was very considerable, had not been exercised by the ex-Lord Chancellor in such a way as to meet with the general approval of mankind; and thirdly, it must be a painful, tedious and invidious thing for any Lord Chancellor to make such appointments.
    THE CHAIRMANsaid that the hon. Member was entirely out of order in reflecting on the late Lord Chancellor.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 7, line 37, to leave out from the beginning to the word 'may' in line 39, and to insert the words. 'The appointment of officers of the public trustee not already in the public service shall be governed by the Order in Council of the fourth day of June, one thousand eight hundred and seventy, establishing the system of open competition for posts in the Civil Service of the Crown, and such officers shall be appointed as the Treasury."—(Mr. Radford.)
    Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause," put, and agreed to without a division.
    SIR JOHN WALTONsaid that while they were all glad that the system of open competition for posts in the Civil Service had been established, he
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    thought it would be generally admitted that the men wanted for the class of work which would have to be done by public trustees were men of a special character whose qualifications could not be gathered from a public competitive examination.
    Amendment negatived.
    Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.
    Committee report Progress; to sit again to-morrow.

    PUBLIC HEALTH (REGULATIONS AS TO FOOD) BILL.
    Order for Second Reading read, and discharged. Bill withdrawn.
    MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
    That they have agreed to—Recorders, Stipendiary Magistrates, and Clerks of the Peace Bill, with an Amendment; Edinburgh Suburban Electric Tramways Order Confirmation Bill; Town Tenants (Ireland) Bill, with Amendments.
    TOWN TENANTS (IRELAND) BILL.
    Lords Amendments to be considered to-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 377.]

    RECORDERS, STIPENDIARY MAGISTRATES, AND CLERKS OF THE PEACE BILL.
    Whereupon Mr. Deputy-Speaker adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Resolution of the House of the 4th August last.
    Adjourned at a quarter before Twelve o'clock.