Commons Sitting of 1 August 1906

Preamble
The House met at a quarter before Three of the Clock.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Buckhaven, Methil, and Innerleven Burgh Extension Bill [Lords]; Ordered, That, in the case of the Buckhaven, Methil, and Innerleven Burgh Extension Bill [Lords], Standing Orders 84, 214, 215, and 239 be suspended, and that the Bill be now taken into Consideration.— (The Chairman of Ways and Means.)
Bill, as amended, accordingly considered: —
Ordered, That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time.—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.)
Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
London Squares and Enclosures Bill [Lords]; Ordered, That, in the case of the London Squares and Enclosures Hill [Lords], Standing Orders 84. 214, 215, and 239 be suspended, and that the Bill be now taken into Consideration.—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.)
Bill, as amended, accordingly considered:—
Ordered, That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time.—(King's
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Consent signified.)—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.)
Bill read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Local Government Provisional Orders (Gas) Bill; Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Rutherglen Burgh Order Confirmation Bill; Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
They have agreed to—Amendments to: Gas and Water Orders Confirmation Bill [Lords]; Gas Orders Confirmation (No. 1) Bill [Lords]; Gas Orders Confirmation (No. 2) Bill [Lords]; Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill [Lords]; Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 4) Bill [Lords]; Tramways Orders Confirmation Bill [Lords]; County of Durham Electric Power Supply Bill [Lords]; Great Northern (Ireland) and Midland Railways Bill [Lords]; Nettle-bed and District Commons (Preservation) Bill [Lords]; Shropshire, Worcestershire, and Staffordshire Electric Power Bill [Lords]; without Amendment.

THE LONDON SQUARES AND ENCLOSURES BILL.
Order for Third Reading read.
THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. JOHN BURNS,): Mr. Speaker, May I be allowed to use this, the only public opportunity we have had of thanking the owners of London squares and gardens who have come within the terms of this Bill for their kindly, I generous, public-spirited, and neighbourly attitude in connection with this matter. I wish to thank them for the generous manner in which they have agreed to permit their squares and gardens to be used in the way proposed by this Bill.

PETITIONS.
  BETTING AND GAMBLING.
  Petitions for legislation; from Barry; Chorley; and Middle Claydon; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petition from Sale, against; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL (RELIGIOUS TEACHING).
  Petitions against alteration of Law; from Latimer Road, London; and, Llanfabon; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT INSPECTORS (IRELAND).
  Return [presented 30th July] to be printed. [No. 297.]
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Copy presented, of Draft Ballot Regulations [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  SHOP HOURS ACT, 1904.
  Copy presented, of Order made by the Urban District Council of Portadown, and confirmed by the Lord - Lieutenant of Ireland, closing shops on certain days within the Urban District of Portadown [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  TREATY SERIES (No. 9, 1906.)
  Copy presented, of Convention between the United Kingdom and China, respecting Tibet. Signed at Peking, 27th April, 1906 (to which is annexed the Convention between the United Kingdom and Tibet, signed at Lhasa, 7th September, 1904). Ratifications exchanged at London, 23rd July, 1906 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  METEOROLOGICAL COMMITTEE.
  Copy presented of first Report of the Meteorological Committee to the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury, for the year ending,31st March, 1906 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  SHOP HOURS ACT, 1904.
  Copy presented of Order made by the Council of the City of Bath, and confirmed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, fixing the hours of closing for Barbers' and Hairdressers' Shops within the city [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  TRAMWAY ORDERS.
  Copy presented of Report of the Board of Trade of their Proceedings under the Tramways Act, 1870, during the session of 1906 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  LIGHT RAILWAYS ACT, 1896.
  Copy presented of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of Light Railways in the parts of Lindsey, in the county of Lincoln, from Wintering-ham to Barton-upon-Humber and from Whitton to Alkborough, in extension of the North Lindsey Light Railways (North Lindsey Light Railways (Extensions) Order, 1906 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  LIGHT RAILWAYS ACT, 1896.
  Copy presented of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the Urban District Council of Barking Town to take lauds for the purpose of widening a road on which a Light Railway, authorised by the Barking Light Railways (Extensions) Order, 1903, will be laid in the Urban District of Barking Town, in the county of Essex (Barking Light Railways (Lands) Order, 1906) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  BOARD OF TRADE (LABOUR DEPARTMENT) (FOREIGN LABOUR STATISTICS).
  Copy presented of Third Abstract of Foreign Labour Statistics by the Labour Department of the Board of Trade [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  TRAMWAYS AND LIGHT RAILWAYS (STREET AND ROAD).
  Return presented relative thereto [ordered 5th April; Mr. Lloyd-George]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed [No. 298.]

  PAPERS LAID UPON THE TABLE BY THE CLERK OF THE HOUSE.
  Inquiry into Charities (County of Wilts.) Further Return relative thereto [ordered 9th August, 1901; Mr. Griffith-Boscawen]; to be printed. [No. 299.]
  Inquiry into Charities (County of Berks). Further Return relative thereto [ordered 28th March, 1905; Mr. Griffith-Boscawen]; to be printed. [No. 300.]
  Inquiry into Charities (Administrative county of Devon). Further Return relative thereto [ordered 26th July, 1905; Mr. Griffith-Boscawen]; to be printed. [No. 301.]

  INCLOSURES (COUNTY OF KENT).
  Return ordered, "showing (1) the number of Inclosures of common land made under the Inclosure Acts from 1845 to 1899 in the county of Kent; (2) list of parishes within which such lands are wholly or partly situate; (3) total acreage of such Inclosures; (4) average acreage of such Inclosuros."— (Mr. Rowlands.)
  EAST INDIA.
  Address for "Return for the five years 1898–1892, showing the number of Native States of India having an area of more than 100 square miles each, which were, during the above period, under the administrative control of political agents on account of the infancy or incapacity of their chiefs; and what has been the increase in their number during the five years covered by the Return."—(Mr. Morton.)
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Gourock Town Council and the Ratepayers.
  MR. TORRANCE: To ask the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that in March last the town council of £rourock bought half an acre of ground at a cost of £6,750; that the resolution, under Section 99 of The Town Councils Act, 1900, authorising the purchase, and also the subsequent resolutions of the council approving the action of the committee, are headed in the minutes, sites for burgh purposes; that on March 22nd last an official statement was made by the council that the ground had been bought for the erection of a court hall, burgh offices, and a town hall; and will he say whether, before making the purchase, the town council complied with Sections 306 and 315 of The Burgh Police (Scotland) Act, 1892, and gave the ratepayers an opportunity of voting on the question of the purchase; and whether, seeing that expenditure on ground for a court hall, etc., falls to be borne by the general improvement assess-
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  ment; that that assessment is in Gourock within ½d. per £ of the statutory maximum and is unable to bear the cost of the purchase; that the town council have paid the cost by borrowing under The Public Parks Act, 1878, the rate under that Act being unlimited; and that Section 44 of The Burgh Police Act, 1903, allows the erection in public parks of temporary buildings only, such as pavilions and shelters, he will say, in view of the statutory provisions in favour of ratepayers contained in Sections 306 and 315 of The Burgh Police Act, 1892, what stops he proposes to take to prevent a permanent stone building, such as a court hall and burgh offices, being erected on ground paid for with money borrowed under the Public Parks Act.
  (Answered by Mr. Sinclair.) As advised, I understand there is recourse for any ratepayer who considers himself aggrieved provided by the 96th section of the Town Councils (Scotland) Act, 1900, and also at common law by way of interdict. As the matter may, therefore, come before the law courts, I am precluded from expressing an opinion in regard to the legality of the action taken by the town council.

  Grievances of Belfast Post Office Clerical Staff.
  MR. SLOAN; To ask the Postmaster-General if he can say when a reply will be made to the communication sent to him from the clerical staff at Belfast; and if it has been definitely decided to remove the Belfast headquarters to Dublin.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) Before arriving at a final decision in regard to the proposed removal of the superintending engineer from Belfast to Dublin, I am considering the memorial from his clerical staff.

  Refusal of Gun Licences for Mr. Edmond Power of Dungarvan.
  MR. O'SHEE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Mr. Orr, R.M., Dungarvan, has refused to issue a gun licence to Mr. Edmond Power, who is farmer and manager of a co-operative creamery; whether the refusal is based on the fact that the applicant was convicted some

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  time ago for trespass in pursuit of game; and whether, seeing that the duty of a resident magistrate, under the Peace Preservation Act, is confined to the consideration as to whether the applicant may or may not use the gun for offences which have no concern with the preservation of game, he will direct the attention of the Lord Chancellor to the several cases in which Mr. Orr has refused applications for gun licences, on the ground that the applicants, in his view, would be likely to shoot game without having previously obtained a game licence.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) I understand that it is the fact that Mr. Orr has declined to grant to Mr. Power a licence to carry firearms. The power of issuing such licences is vested in the resident magistrate of the district. It would be contrary to practice and undesirable to state grounds for refusal in a particular case. Mr. Orr, however, informs me that he has never refused an application upon the ground that the applicant would be likely to shoot game without having previously obtained a game licence. I am not aware of any reason for bringing the matter to the notice of the Lord Chancellor.

  Parcels Post Arrangement for Adare and Rathkeale.
  MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY: To ask the Postmaster-General if he can say when the regulations were made that parcels sent from Adare and Rathkeale by the afternoon train and reaching Limerick at 3.30 p.m. are to be despatched in a direct parcel mail to Dublin at 3.55 p.m. on Mondays and Wednesdays, and on other days at 11 p.m. on same day.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) The arrangements mentioned in reference to parcels sent from Rathkeale and Adare have, I understand, been in operation for a great number of years.

  Case of Timothy Fitzgerald, 'Rural Postman at Athen, County Limerick.
  MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY: To ask the Postmaster-General if he can say what has been the result of his inquiries into the case of Timothy Fitzgerald, rural postman in the district of Athen, county of Limerick, whose wages were reduced from 11s. per week to 6s. 6d. per week,
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  and 1s. per week for cleaning bicycle, since the date of change from a walking to a cycling route; and whether he will allow him to use a bicycle of his own and fix his wages on a fair basis.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) My inquiries in this matter are not yet quite complete. I will communicate with the hon. Member on the subject at an early date.

  Inspector of Sheep Dipping for County Donegal.
  MR. T. L. COEBETT: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the attention of the Department of Agriculture has been called to the appointment, by the Diseases of Animals Committee of the Donegal County Council, of an inspector for the compulsory dipping of sheep in the rural district of Glenties; will he say how many suitable men, with, long experience of sheep-dipping, applied for the position; has the person appointed any knowledge of sheep-dipping; what was his former occupation; whether he is aware that his brother is a county councillor and a member of the Diseases of Animals Committee which made the appointment; and will he say what action does the Department intend to take in this matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Department of Agriculture have approved of the temporary appointment by the local authority under the Diseases of Animals Acts for county Donegal of inspectors of sheep-dipping for the various rural districts in the county, Glenties included. In the case of Glenties district the information before the Department does not show that there was more than one candidate for the appointment. The Department have not felt called upon to inquire into the qualifications or connections of any of the persons appointed. They do not propose to interfere with the discretion of the Donegal local authority in regard to appointments of this kind.

  Board of Education and Eden Grove School, Holloway.
  MR. BOLAND: To ask the President of the Hoard of Education whether his attention has been called to

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  the correspondence between the Education Committee of the London County Council and the Rev. T. Carey, of Eden Grove, Holloway; was the permission of the Board of Education sought before the letter, dated July 12th, 1906, was sent by the London County Council; can he explain how the removal of one of the partitions contributes to the efficient working of the school, and, if so, why would not the removal of a like partition in the other room also contribute to its efficient working; and whether, in view of the expense caused by the changes required to be made, he will say who is to indemnify the managers.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) I have made inquiries as to the circumstances referred to, and I find that the apparent inconsistency of the local education authority was duo to a misunderstanding. Their letter of July 12th was written to the managers in ignorance of the fact that the partition in question had already been erected, and with the object of relieving the managers of expenditure which it was not absolutely necessary for them to incur. I understand that in the circumstances the local education authority will not press for the removal of the partition.
  MR. BOLAND: To ask the President of the Board of Education with reference to the correspondence between the London County Council and the Rev. T. Carey, of Eden Grove, Holloway, if he can say how it comes that sixty children on one floor divided into two classes of thirty each, separated by a partition, can be efficiently taught, whereas sixty children on the next floor cannot be effectively taught if they are so divided and accommodated; if the sixty children on one floor in one largo undivided room were transferred to the next floor and divided into two classes, and if the other sixty children were transferred so as to take the place of these sixty children, how comes it that the teaching would be still effective; and can he say what steps he proposes to take so that managers of schools may not be subjected to harassing and contradictory requirements.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The somewhat abstruse problems to which the hon. Member asks for replies raise ques-
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  tions of educational administration into which the occasion of Question and Answer in this House does not appear to offer a suitable opportunity to enter. I think the essential purpose of the Question is met by the Answer I have given to the hon. Member's previous Question.

  Provision for Survivors of the Balaclava Charge.
  MR. DOBSON: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that appeals are being continually made in the Press for charitable assistance on behalf of twenty-nine needy survivors of the Balaclava light brigade charge; and whether he will consider the advisability of making sufficient provision from public funds for their maintenance in order that they may no longer be dependent upon any form of public charity.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) Provision is already made for the award from Army funds of special campaign pensions up to 1s. a day to all necessitous survivors of the Balaclava Charge. In addition, grants are made from a fund administered by the Royal Patriotic Fund Corporation. Application should be made to the Commissioners of Chelsea Hospital in the case of any necessitous survivor who is not in receipt of any Army pension.

  Cleansing of the Royal Canal.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Royal Canal requires to be cleansed, and that boat owners using the canal complain of its condition; and whether he will arrange with the responsible parties that the canal shall be cleansed at once.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) I am informed by the Board of Works that the ordinary maintenance of this canal, including cleansing, is being carried on. The Board are prepared to consider and inquire into any specific complaints which may be made to them by boat owners.

  Erection of Glass Houses in Phœnix Park, Dublin—Scottish Contractors.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland

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  whether he can state under what circumstances contracts for the erection of glass houses in the Phœnix Park, Dublin, were given to a Scottish firm; and whether Irish firms were invited to tender for the erection of these houses.
  (Answered by Mr. M'Kenna.) The Board of Works have informed me that these houses were urgently required and that the work is of a special character, both as regards the design, the details of construction, and the arrangements for ventilation. In these circumstances the Board gave the contract, after being satisfied that the terms were reasonable, to a firm of well-known specialists in this kind of work, who had executed contracts in the past to the Board's entire satisfaction. There are considerable building works in connection with the erection of the glass houses, and these, I understand, have been carried out either by Dublin contractors after tender or by the Board's workmen.

  Reinstatement of James and Geoffrey Ring of Lacka, County Cork.
  MR. FLYNN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland in reference to the Hungerford and Clorahn estate, Lacka, County Cork; whether the Estates Commissioners will state why they cannot take any action in respect to the application of James and Geoffrey Ring, evicted tenants, for reinstatement in their holdings.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Estates Commissioners inform me that after careful inquiry and consideration of the cases of James and Geoffrey Ring, they came to the conclusion that these applicants were unsuitable for restoration as tenant purchasers, and accordingly decided not to take any steps towards their restoration.

  Education of Blind Children in Ireland.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will consider the advisability of introducing a measure to afford the same facilities with regard to the education of the blind children in Ireland as exists in Great Britain.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) It appears to have escaped the hon. Member's notice that I have already introduced a measure
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  upon this subject. I refer to the Irish Education (Afflicted Children) Bill, which has been road a second time. The Committee stage stands on the Paper for 23rd October.

  Disappearance of Game from Ireland.
  MR. FETHERSTONHAUGH: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord - Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been directed to the injury likely to result to Ireland by the disappearance of game from a great part of the country; and whether, with a view to preventing the destruction of this national asset, he will consider the advisability of taking steps to ensure more careful attention to game licences, and game dealers' licences, and of compelling game dealers to obey the laws as to recording in their books the names of persons from whom they buy game.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The enforcement of the game laws is not a matter which falls within the province of the Irish Government. The police are directly prohibited by statute from enforcing the laws relating to the preservation of game. The matter of game licences concerns the Inland Revenue, and any question on the subject should be addressed to my hon. friend the Secretary to the Treasury, who answers for that Department.

  Punishment of the Ghaffirs of Denshawi.
  MR. DILLON: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why the Ghaffirs of Denshawi who protected the wounded British officers and took care of them until relief came have been punished.
  (Answered by Secretary Sir Edward Grey.) I have no further information than that contained in the Papers already laid before Parliament.

  The Denshawi Affair and the Ombashi of Egyptian Police.
  MR. DILLON: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Ombashi of Egyptian police, who accompanied the English officers on the day of the affray at Denshawi, gave evidence at the trial of the villagers of Denshawi; and, if so, by whom he was called on to give evidence; whether he has since been put on trial himself; and, if so,

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  what are the charges against him; and before what tribunal is he to be tried.
  (Answered by Secretary Sir Edward Grey.) The Ombashi was called upon by the prosecution to give evidence before the court. I am not aware that he has himself since been placed on trial.

  The Anhui Mining Contract.
  SIR EDWARD SASSOON: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether in view of his statement that the Wai-wu-Pu are endeavouring to overcome the hostility of the local gentry in connection with the Anhui mining contract, he would consider the expediency of affording effectual assistance to the Central Government to enable them to carry out the concessions and obligations into which they have entered in the past: and, if not, by what other method does he expect to secure the legal rights of British subjects in China.
  (Answered by Secretary Sir Edward Grey.) The Answer to the first Question is in the negative. I have nothing to add to the statement already made in regard to this concession to the effect that the efforts of His Majesty's Legation have been and are being directed to obtaining, by means of representations to the Central Government, permission for the promoters of the scheme to commence operations.

  Compensation for Injuries by Railway Accident to Mr. Winskil—Letter Sorter.
  MR. STEADMAN: To ask the Postmaster-General if the Post Office paid any part of the £700 recently awarded by the Caledonian Railway Company to Mr. Winskil as compensation for injuries received in a railway accident while engaged as a travelling letter sorter; and, if so, how much.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) The Answer is in the negative.

  Postal Arrangements at Tollcross.
  MR. MITCHELL-THOMSON: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he has received representations with regard to the inconvenience of the postal arrangements in parts of Tollcross; and whether he will endeavour to give such increased
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  facilities that it may be possible to reply to English letters on the day of receipt.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) I have the question of the improvement of the postal arrangements at Tollcross now under consideration, and I will communicate further with the hon. Member when the inquiries are completed.

  Publication of Report of Royal Commission on Tuberculosis.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he can state when the Report of the Royal Commission on Tuberculosis will be issued; and whether it is intended to make a definite statement regarding the communicability of bovine tuberculosis to man.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) The Royal Commission hoped that the Report which they propose to issue would have been published before the adjournment, but they now find that it will not be practicable to issue it before October. They think it necessary to include in the Appendix a larger amount of experimental detail than they anticipated, and to confirm certain important facts by-additional experiments, which are still under observation. I understand that a definite statement on the communicability of bovine tuberculosis to man will be made in the Report.

  Alcoholic Beverage to inmates of Lunatic Asylum.
  MR. WILES: To ask the President of the Local Government Board if he is aware that the Report of the joint Committee of the Throe Counties Asylum, near Arlesey, shows that 32,800 gallons of beer were brewed in the institution last year for the use of the inmates and staff at a cost of £933; and whether, seeing that the experience of the London County Council Asylums Committee has proved the percentage of recoveries to be greater where no beer is given, he will consider the advisability of recommending the joint Committee to abandon the practice of giving alcoholic beverages to lunatics, except under direct medical orders.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) I beg to answer this Question on behalf of my right hon. friend. I am informed

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  by the Lunacy Commissioners that the beer used at the Three Counties Asylum is given to the patients generally on Sundays only, when each patient has half a pint at dinner. On week days patients are encouraged to work by an. allowance of beer to those who work. As, however, the use of beer has been discontinued in most asylums, I will make further inquiry into the matter.

  London County Council Parliamentary Expenses.
  MR. THORNTON: To ask the President of the Local Government Board if he will grant a Return showing the expenses incurred by the London County Council in promoting and opposing Bills in Parliament during the last six years, stating in each case the title of the Bill and whether or not it became law.
  (Answered by Air. John Burns.) I would draw the hon. Member's attention to a Return made to an Order of the House of Lords in 1903 (No. 214), which gives particulars of the expenses incurred by the London County Council in promoting and opposing Bills in Parliament in each session up to and including that for the year 1902. This return will perhaps be sufficient for his purpose.

  Holding of Fairs at Ballina.
  MR. FETIIERSTONHAUGH: To ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland whether any steps have been taken with reference to granting a new patent for the holding of fairs to the Ballina Urban District Council.
  (Answered by Mr. Cherry.) The Urban District Council of Ballina, county Mayo, recently expressed a desire to obtain a patent to hold monthly fairs at Ballina. The Lord-Lieutenant caused them to be informed that this could be effected only on an application by the owners of the existing patent of which the district council are lessees, the council as lessees to join in the application. No such application has since been received.

  The Kent Hop Industry and Foreign Competition.
  MR. H. H. MARKS: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether the
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  Board has received representations from the Canterbury Farmers' Club and East Kent Chamber of Agriculture with reference to the position of the hop industry in East Kent; and whether it is proposed to take any steps in the matter.
  (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) We have received a resolution from the body named calling attention to the serious position of the hop industry owing to the unfair competition from foreign countries, but they do not make any suggestions as to action which might be taken by the Government. If, however they refer to the proposal that foreign hops should be marked or that an import duty should be imposed, the Government cannot take action in either direction.

  Commander of Portsmouth Naval Barracks and the Canteen Committee.
  MR. BELLAIRS: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he can give an authoritative denial to the report that the newly appointed commander of Portsmouth naval barracks had intimated to the canteen committee his intention to override their considered and unanimous decision in regard to a matter intimately connected with the canteen funds; and whether this officer merely intimated to the canteen committee that he reserved to himself the right to submit a report to his superior officer on a decision of the Committee which appeared to him against the financial interests of the canteen.
  (Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson.) There is no foundation whatever for the report that any attempt has been made to override the decision of the Portsmouth Canteen Committee in any respect.

  Clerks to Surveyors of Taxes.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the fact that the Board of Inland Revenue have frequently urged the establishment of the clerks to surveyors of taxes, and that the Treasury officials refuse all such schemes submitted to them, he will state his reasons for refusing to order an independent inquiry into the case of these clerks, especially in view of the fact

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  that the surveyors recently petitioned the Board of Inland Revenue praying for their clerks establishment in the interests of the Revenue and the public.
  (Answered by Mr. M'Kenna.) I have already stated, in answer to a Question on the 26th ultimo of the hon. Member for South Down, the reasons for this refusal. They are "That all the facts are fully known, that they have been carefully examined and considered both by the Treasury and by the Board on more than one occasion in recent years, and that there is no reason to suppose that further inquiry would affect the judgment of the Treasury or of the Board of Inland Revenue."
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the fact that the Board of Inland Revenue consulted the chief inspector and his assistants, on the surveyor's memorial last year, praying for the establishment of clerks to surveyors of taxes, he will state how many inspectors are employed by such Board; whether he is aware that the majority of the inspectors strongly urge the establishment of these clerks; whether he will state how many of such inspectors are in favour of such establishment; and whether the Board of Inland Revenue acted upon the advice of such inspectors in refusing the surveyor's prayer; and, if not, will he explain upon what grounds the Board based their refusal, seeing that not one of the members of such Board ever worked in a surveyor's office.
  (Answered by Mr. M'Kenna.) There are altogether six superintending inspectors and sixteen inspectors. I am not prepared to enter into any question as to the individual opinions of the several inspectors. The surveyors were informed of the grounds of refusal in a Minute of the Board of Inland Revenue, dated July 28th, 1905. As I stated in reply to an unstarred Question of the hon. Member for South Down on June 21st last, the present system is preferred, not only as being more economical, but also as more convenient for adaptation of the staff to the requirements of the localities.

  Return of Intercepted Public Revenue.
  MR. BOWLES: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he will grant, as
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  an unopposed Return, a statement of the Intercepted Public Revenue for the years 1904–5, 1905–6, 1906–7, in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 223, of 1905; whether he will grant in the same way a continuation of Return No. 243, of 1905 (Gross Departmental Expenditure), for the years 1895–6, 1905–6, and 1906–7; and, if not, upon what grounds it is considered necessary now for the first time to withhold this information from the House.
  (Answered by Mr. M'Kenna.) A Return of Public Revenue (Interception) will be given for the three years in question, if the hon. Member will move for it. The Return of Gross Departmental Expenditure has only once been furnished, namely, in 1905, when it was allowed experimentally. It is merely a recasting of the figures of expenditure, as ordinarily published, under a different classification. Such variations tend to confusion, and are to be deprecated unless they serve some really useful purpose. I do not think there is such justification in this instance, and I regret, therefore, that I do not see my way to incur the trouble and expense which its publication would entail.

  Extension of the Avon and Stour Conservancies.
  MR. W. D. WARD: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, whether a Report has been received from the Board's inspector, who held an inquiry as to the extension of the Avon and Stour Conservancy to other Hampshire rivers; and whether such Report will be laid upon the Table.
  (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) The Report to which my hon. friend refers has been received, but it is made solely for the guidance and information of the Board, and it would be contrary to practice for it to be laid on the Table.

  Evicted Ryots in the Bombay Presidency.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for India if he will state how many ryots have been evicted in the Bombay Presidency in default of payment of land revenue in each of the last five years; and what sum has been realised in each year through the sale of land previously in the occupation of evicted ryots.

  1041
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) According to the annual land revenue reports of the Bombay Presidency the number of cases in which the occupancy right was forfeited to Government on

  Number of cases of forfeiture.

  Amount realised by sale of forfeited land to the public.

  Rupees.

  1899–1900

  2,173

  4,057 (£270)

  1900–1901

  6,386

  4,425 (£295)

  1901–1902

  9,462

  1,221 (£81)

  1902–1903

  4,210

  1,746 (£116)

  1903–1904

  15,575

  10,031 (£668)

  In many cases the forfeited land is eventually returned to the ryot. Only a small portion of the forfeited land in any year is sold to the public.

  Contract for Conveyance of Military Stores from Dublin to Kilbride—Fair Wages Clause.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether the Fair Wages Resolution clause has been inserted in the contract for the conveyance of military stores from Dublin to Kilbride; and if he is aware that the wages paid to the carters on this work is 2s. a week less than the wages paid by the contractor having the contract for conveyance of other military stores.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The contract contains the current rate clause. Some of the carters receive more and some less than the carters employed by the other contractor referred to, but no evidence has been produced to show that the minimum wages paid by the contractor are less than the wages usually paid in the district to carters of the same skill and experience.

  Lodging Allowance to Sergeants and Buglers on Permanent Staff of Militia.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will favourably consider the granting of the same fuel, light, and lodging allowance to sergeants and buglers serving on the permanent staff Militia on Militia
  account of arrears of land revenue, and the amount realised by sale of forfeited land to the public, were as follow in the last five years for which figures have been received:—
  engagement as is granted to the same ranks on Army engagement.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) This proposal has been considered on previous occasions and has been rejected. I am not aware of any reasons for departing from the decisions of my predecessors.

  The War Office and Case of Mr. Bremner.
  MR. CLAVELL SALTER: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether the promised inquiries into Bremner's case have been made; and, if so, what course it is proposed to take in the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) This Question is still under consideration.

  Poor Law Commission—Irish Medical Representative.
  MR. O'SHEE: To ask the Prime Minister, what are the reasons why he declines to recommend the appointment of an Irish medical man on the Royal Commission on the Poor Law to fill the vacancy created by the death of The O'Conor Don; and whether, as the Irish medical profession is vitally concerned in the investigations of the Royal Commission so far as regards Ireland, he will reconsider the matter.
  (Answered by Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman.) I do not see my way to reconsider this matter in the sense desired

  1043
  by the hon. Member. The selection of members of Royal Commissions is governed by general considerations, and in any fresh appointment that may be made to the Royal Commission on the Poor Law the hon. Member may be sure that regard will be had to the Commissioner's qualifications for dealing with the Poor Law as it is administered in Ireland. It does not follow that, because Irish Poor Law medical officers are interested in the inquiry, the appointment of an Irish medical gentleman would necessarily be the most fitting to make.

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  The "Renown."
  MR. NIELD: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the "Renown" is included in the number of first-class battleships appearing in the recently issued Return of Fleets; and whether the work of reconverting the vessel into a battleship has been commenced, and when it may be expected to be completed.
  HE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. EDMUND ROBERTSON): The Answer to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative. The work of restoring the "Renown"To her original condition has not yet been commenced, but it could, if necessary, be carried out in a very short space of time.

  Disbanded Scots Guards.
  R. AINSWORTHI beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will consider the advisability of allowing the non-commissioned officers and men in the 3rd Battalion of Scots Guards, and in other battalions to be disbanded the opportunity of re-engaging for extended terms of service, so as to enable them to qualify for subsequent employment with the auxiliary forces.
  HE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. HALDANE,)These non-commissioned officers and men will be granted the opportunity of reengaging mentioned in the Question.

  Zulu Rebellion.
  R. BYLESI beg to ask the Under-secretary of State for the
  1044
  Colonies whether the Zulu rebellion is now at an end, and whether the Militia and irregular troops will be immediately recalled; what will be done with the 3,000 prisoners; and what steps will be taken to remove the conditions which produced disaffection among the hitherto loyal native population of the Colony.
  THE UNDER - SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. CHURCHILL,): The Governor does not anticipate further operations, and states that all districts are reported quiet. The Natal Government has given orders for the demobilisation of the active Militia, retaining about 600 men for further services, if required. The Secretary of State is not officially informed as to what will be done with the prisoners. The Natal Government proposes to appoint a Commission to investigate the question of native administration.
  MR. BYLES: I beg to ask the Under - Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to a speech made at a public banquet in Pretoria, by Brigadier-General Jeffreys, in which he defended the military policy of giving no quarter and accepting no surrender in the recent operations against the Zulus; will he say whether General Jeffreys holds his commission from His Majesty; and whether the Colonial Secretary will take any notice of the speech.
  MR. CHURCHILL: From a newspaper report which I have seen it appears to be stated that Brigadier-General Jeffreys, who is an officer upon the staff in South Africa, said in the course of a speech largely devoted to historical references to bygone methods of warfare, that in the course of a "drive" through impenetrable bush it was impossible to accept surrenders. I do not know whether the report is correct; but even if it were, it does not seem to me to afford any grounds for the supposition that a British officer would defend the killing of unresisting men. I hope my hon. friend will endeavour to extend to the speeches of soldiers the benefits of that most favourable construction to which speeches in this House are in constitutional practice entitled, and of which they may sometimes stand in need. The Secretary

  1045
  of State does not consider that the matter calls for his interference.
  MR. BYLES: I am not quite sure whether I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that a "drive through impenetrable bush" was an historic reference; if that is so, I am only too glad to accept the Answer, but I take it to mean—
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order ! The hon. Member is not now asking a Question.

  Repatriation of Coolies.
  MR. FETHERSTONHAUGH: I beg to ask the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies whether he is yet in a position to state whether the republication of the Repatriation Ordinance has been any more successful than the original publication in inducing the Chinese coolies in the Transvaal to realise that they wish to be sent back to China; what was the date of the republication; and has the Government no information, by telegram or otherwise, as to the number of coolies who have since required to be repatriated.
  MR. CHURCHILL: The new notice was posted in the compounds on July 18th. No information has yet been received as to the number of applications made.

  Mining Operations in the Reserved Area of the Transvaal
  MR. J. RAMSAY MACDONALD: I beg to ask the Under-secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Bewaarplaatzen is still in the possession of the Transvaal State to the same extent as before the war; and whether any mining operations are now being carried on under these reserved areas.
  MR. CHURCHILL: The Governor has not yet replied to an inquiry on the subject addressed to him. His attention is again being called to the matter.

  Remission of Stamp Duties on Letters Patent.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, having regard to the fact.that a sum of £150 12s. is placed on
  1046
  the Civil Service Supplementary Estimates, under Class VII., for repayment to the Civil Contingencies Fund, in respect of stamp duties payable on Letters Patent, creating Sir Thomas Sanderson, G.C.B, K.C.M.G., I.S.O., a baron of the United Kingdom, will he explain why the recipient of this honour is not required to pay the stamp duties.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. MCKENNA,): The long and distinguished career in the public service of the recipient of the honour was held, following precedent, to justify the remission of the charges.
  MR. WEIR: Might I ask the hon. Gentleman whether those charges are remitted on account of long service, and whether Members of this House after serving here for many years will be entitled to anything?

  Civil Service Estimates.
  SIR ROBERT HOBART: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he can hold out hopes of substantial reductions and economies being carried out in the administration of the Civil Services Estimates for 1906–7, on somewhat similar lines to those effected on the Army and Navy Estimates.
  MR. MCKENNA: The Civil expenditure of the State applies to a large number of services which are independent of one another and governed by entirely different considerations. It is not possible therefore by any general determination of policy to affect the Civil expenditure as the Naval or Military expenditure may be affected. It is, however, the hope and intention of His Majesty's Government to secure that the Civil Services shall be conducted with the strictest regard to economy.

  King's Park, Stirling.
  MR. MORTON: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether the town council of Stirling had the option of acquiring the ground adjoining the King's Park and King's Knot, part of the King's Park; if so, at what price; whether the said ground has been sold to private parties; and, if so, will he say why this has been done.
  MR. YOUNGER: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that Crown land contiguous to the King's Park at Stirling is being feued for building purposes; whether applications for feus on this land have hitherto been refused on the ground that buildings placed upon the site would destroy one of the finest views in Scotland; and whether, having regard to the interests of the town, and the public dissatisfaction caused by the present action, he will reconsider any decision that may have been taken.
  MR. MCKENNA: Perhaps I may be allowed to answer the Question addressed to me by the hon. Member for Ayr Burghs at the same time. I am informed that the land referred to is an arable field containing about four acres to which the public have never had the privilege of access. The Commissioner of Woods is not aware that previous applications for feus have been refused for the reason stated. I understand, moreover, that adjoining land on the same side of the Dumbarton Road belonging to the town council of Stirling has been built over. It has been arranged that the field shall be feued for the erection only of private residences of a style and character to be approved by the Commissioner, and the buildings are to be kept on the lower part of the field next the public road, where they will not be visible from the park or interfere with the amenities of it. The town council were, given the first opportunity of acquiring the land, but did not desire to avail themselves of it, nor, when the proposals for feuing were submitted to them as a matter of courtesy, did they intimate any objection to the land being feued to others provided the restrictions mentioned were enforced. In these circumstances I see no sufficient reason for interfering with the decision which has been arrived at.

  Insurance under the Workmen's Compensation Act.
  *SIR CHARLES DILKE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the statement on page 57 of the Annual Report on Factories and Workshops that cases continue in which charges are made for insurance under the Work-
  1048
  men's Compensation Act and the amount deducted more than covers the premium; and whether the promise made by his predecessor on August 4th, 1903, is to be redeemed.
  *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. GLADSTONE,): I am aware of the statement to which my right hon. friend alludes. In accordance with the promise given in August, 1903, the question of these deductions was brought by the Home Office before the Departmental Committee on Workmen's Compensation who reported that "if the practice were shown to be other than very exceptional it might be a question worthy of consideration whether the provisions of the Truck Acts should not be extended to check the evil." I agree with the Committee in the view that the matter is one to be dealt with rather by an Amendment of the Truck Acts than of the Workmen's Compensation Act, and I am informed that the Truck Committee now sitting has it in mind and has already heard evidence with regard to it.

  Additional Factory Inspectors.
  MR. BYLES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has received communications from workmen's organisations asking for an increase in the factory laws inspectorate, by the appointment of more working class inspectors; and whether he can see-his way to accede to this demand.
  *MR. GLADSTONE: This Question was pressed on my notice by the deputation from the Trades Union Congress in February last. I shall have an opportunity of dealing with it in the Estimates this afternoon.

  The Inter-Parliamentary Conference.
  MR. MEYSEY-THOMPSON: I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works if he will give the details composing the sum of £5,000 to be granted towards the expenses of receiving the Inter-Parliamentary Conference.
  *THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (Mr. HARCOURT,): I have not yet received the information in the form of vouchers and. accounts, and therefore am unable to give

  1049
  particulars. They will be presented, however, in due course to Parliament and the balance-sheet will show how the money has generally been expended in fitting up the Royal Gallery for the conference, for the luncheon in Westminster Hall, the banquet at the Crystal Palace, for the striking of a medal, locomotion, postage, and stationery, and other matters. The expenses for the luncheon falling on the the public charge will only be the sum for our foreign guests, the cost of their own entertainment being paid by the British delegates. The total amount required will not be so much as has been voted by Parliament owing to the admirable management of the English committee here.

  Dining Arrangements in the House of Commons.
  MR. SUMMERBELL: I beg to ask the hon. Member for Mid-Derby, as Chairman of the Kitchen Committee of the House of Commons, in view of the late sittings of the House during the past few weeks, whether he will state how many staff's of waiters there are for the dining rooms, the number of hours they work, their starting time, and rate of pay; and whether any, and, if so, how many receive any payment when Parliament is not sitting.
  MR. JACOBY: A similar Question was asked last Monday. I would refer the hon. Member to my written reply.†

  Educational Grants.
  MR. MEYSEY-THOMPSON: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education if he will give the items and particulars forming the sum of £200,000 to be allotted to certain local education.authorities; and when these grants will be paid.
  *THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Mr. BIRRELL,): The sum named is an estimate of the maximum sum likely to be needed to carry out the Regulations recently issued for the Special Grant which is payable this year, and this year only. I can give no accurate list of individual authorities or amounts until the audited Financial Statements of the Local Education Authority
  † See Col. 433.
  1050
  concerned have reached the Board of Education and been investigated there. The grants will, as a rule, be paid before the close of this year.

  Foreign Trawling in the Moray Firth.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland, in view of the decision of the High Court at Edinburgh confirming the decision of Sheriff Guthrie in regard to foreign trawling in the Moray Firth, will he state whether the commanders of Scottish Fishery Board cruisers have been instructed as to the action to be taken in respect of foreign trawlers found fishing in the Firth; and, if not, will he state when instructions will be issued.
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLALD (Mr. SINCLAIR,): I am not yet in a position to add to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Argyllshire on July 25th. †
  MR. WEIR: Might I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether I am to understand that the cruisers have captured one of these foreign trawlers not within the three-mile limit but in any part of the Moray Firth?
  MR. SINCLAIR: No, the hon. Member is not to understand anything further than what I stated in my answer.
  *MR. J. RAMSAY MACDONALD: Arising out of that Answer might I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he can tell us what the Government are inquiring into?
  MR. SINCLAIR: That was not the Question put to me. The Question put to me was whether the Commanders of the Scottish Fishery Board had been instructed as to the action to be taken in respect of foreign trawlers found fishing in the Firth, and, if not, when instnictions will be issued. That matter is now receiving the attention of the Government.
  MR. MORTON: May the Members of this House go round with the cruisers to see how they are doing their duty.
  † See (4), Debates, clxi., 1197.

  Sutherland Main Roads.
  MR. MORTON: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether he will take means to get a grant of money for the improvement of the main roads in the county of Sutherland.
  MR. SINCLAIR: The Answer is in the negative. I can add nothing now to previous answers to my hon. friend.

  Small Holdings in Scotland.
  MR. MITCHELL-THOMSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of Scotland what is the number and total acreage of agricultural holdings in Scotland below £50 annual value.
  MR. SINCLAIR: So far as I am ware, there are no precise figures available. In 1890–91, the latest year for which figures are available, the number of persons assessed for Poor Rate in respect of the occupation of farms and paying rental not exceeding £50 as per Valuation Roll, was 46,828. Table VI. of the Annual Returns of acreage in the Agricultural Statistics, 1905, gives the total number of Agricultural Holdings in Scotland above one acre and not exceeding fifty acres as 53,358.
  MR. MITCHELL-THOMSON: I suppose we shall have accurate information before we deal with the Bill in the Autumn?
  MR. SINCLAIR: I hope so, Sir, but accurate information is exceedingly difficult to obtain.

  Cost of Land Commission in Scotland
  MR. MITCHELL-THOMSON: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland what is the estimated cost of the new Scottish Land Commission, including the sums now devoted to the Crofters Commission and the Congested Districts Board.
  MR. SINCLAIR: I must ask the hon. Member to await the issue of the Bill.

  Beggars in Dunblane.
  MR. MORTON: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether he proposes to take any action to enable the police in the town of Dunblane to deal with loiterers and beggars; whether Section 420 of the
  1052
  Act of 1892, as to retailers of coals, is in force in that town; and, if so, will he explain why offences of that nature are not reported to the borough prosecutor.
  THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. THOMAS SHAW,): Dunblane is not. excepted from the operation of the Burgh Police Act, 1892. If, under that Act, or in any other manner, there is a failure of duty upon the part of the police, or in the reporting of the offences, the proper course is for any persons or authorities aggrieved to report the matter to the sheriff of the county. In view, however, of the inquiries by my hon. friend, such as the present and that on the Paper for to-morrow, I have adopted the course of sending the whole correspondence and documents to the Crown Agent in Edinburgh for report.

  Increased Value of Irish Land.
  MR. FLYNN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the fact that the Congested Districts Board paid eighteen years' purchase of first term rents for lands bought in 1906, compared with fifteen years' purchase in 1902, and twenty-one and a quarter years' purchase of second term rent in 1906,compared with eighteen and three-quarter years' purchase in 1902, they can now explain what circumstances have arisen to justify the increase of three years' purchase and of two and a half years' respectively.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. BRYCE,): The Congested Districts Board purchased land in 1906, as in other years since the passing of the Irish Land Act of 1903, at the lowest price at which they could obtain it. The price of land has risen since 1903.
  MR. FLYNN: Arising out of that, can the right hon. Gentleman say whether there is any increase in the agricultural value of the land to justify paying this enhanced price?
  MR. BRYCE: The causes which affect the price of land are very numerous, and this increase I suggest is largely due to causes other than that suggested by the hon. Member.

  Mr. O'Callaghan and the Newman Estate.
  MR. FLYNN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Estates Commissioners have yet arrived at any decision in regard to the case of Mr. Timothy C. O'Callaghan, Dromore, Mallow, who was excluded from the purchase arrangement on the Newman estate, though willing to purchase his holding on the same terms as the other tenants, and who has since been evicted from his holding; are the Commissioners aware that the landlord procured the exclusion of this tenant from the general scheme by a false representation, to the effect that he was entitled to the resumption of C. O'Callaghan's holding, on the ground of its being demesne land; and whether the Commissioners will take steps to procure his reinstatement.
  MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have not yet arrived at a decision in this case. The matter is still under consideration.

  The Irish Butter Trade and the Agricultural Organisation Society.
  Mr. FLYNN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the meeting of the council of the Irish Butter Trade Association at which the relationship of the Irish Department of Agriculture with the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society was discussed; will he say if the Department subsidised the society to the extent of £5,700 within the past two years; and whether, in view of the complaints of this trade society against the subsidising of an organisation which is in direct competition with private traders in the Irish butter trade, more especially in regard to the creameries industry, the Department will decline to subsidise the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society in future by withholding further financial assistance.
  MR. BRYCE: I have seen a newspaper report of the recent proceedings of the council of the Irish Butter Trade Association. The purposes of organisation for which grants in aid of a sum of £2,000 for the year ended February 28th last, and of a sum not exceeding £3,700 for the year ending 28th February next, were made by the Department of Agriculture, with the concurrence of the
  1054
  Agricultural Board, have already been explained in my answers to the questions of the hon. Member for East Mayo on May 21st and 29th.† The question of the continuance of the existing provisional arrangement for any period subsequent to the twelve months ending February 28th next, was discussed at the meeting of the Council of Agriculture in May last, and was postponed for further consideration to their next meeting, which will be held in the autumn of the present year. The result of the further deliberations of the Council will be a guide to the Agricultural Board and the Department as regards future action in the matter.
  MR. FLYNN: I ask the right hon. Gentleman is he himself aware that this Irish Agricultural Organisation Society is in direct competition with private traders in the Irish butter trade.
  MR. BRYCE: I think if the hon. Member will refer to what I said to the hon. Member for East Mayo on May 21st and 29th he will find that I have answered that.

  Cattle-Maiming in South Derry.
  MR. MACVEAGH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the police have been able to trace the perpetrators of the cattle-maiming outrage on Mr. Bailey, in South Derry.
  MR. BRYCE: I am informed that the police have made every effort to discover the offender or offenders in this case, but up to the present have not succeeded in doing so. They are still pursuing their investigations.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELL: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman is he not aware that this is the third attack to which this gentleman has been subjected: that during the general election he was violently assaulted himself and that now his cattle are maimed; and whether the right hon. Gentleman does not think that is rather a high price to pay for his voting Liberal.
  MR. BRYCE: I have no power in the matter. I can only say that every possible
  † See (4), Debates, clvii., 902; clvii., 257.

  1055
  effort will be made to trace the perpetrators of this outrage, but hon. Members must remember that these outrages were committed at night and it is extremely difficult to trace a thing of that sort.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELL: Could not the right hon. Gentleman supply North Derry with the same government which is supplied to South Tipperary in cases of the same kind?
  MR. MACVEAGH: Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Member for the Division has denounced these cruel outrages, and, if not, whether he may be deemed to be in favour of them.
  MR. BRYCE: That Question could hardly be answered by me.

  The Board of Works and the Burtonport Railway.
  MR. MCVEIGH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the inefficient working of and delay to the travelling public on the Burtonport Railway on the 19th and 21st instant; whether he is aware that whatever improvement has taken place in the working of the line is due to the Lough Swilly Company procuring at its own expense new engines to replace those supplied by the Board of Works; and whether, seeing that all the public bodies in the districts through which the line runs have passed Resolutions asking for something to be done, he will take steps to have an inquiry made by the Board of Trade as to the defects and safety of the line, and the inefficiency of its rolling stock.
  MR. BRYCE: I am informed that the delay on the 19th ultimo to the traffic on the Burtonport line arose through an accident to an engine on the Lough Swilly Company's own line near Londonderry, the effect of which was felt throughout the Burtonport system. The delays on the 21st ultimo were due partly to causes which arose on the Lough Swilly Company's own line and partly to the failure of the injectors of one of that company's engines at Owenarrow viaduct on the Burtonport line The reply to the second part of the Question is in the negative. The engines referred
  1056
  to are not, it is understood, now working on the Burtonport line, the traffic on which is being worked by the original engines. I see no sufficient reason in the circumstances which I have described for altering the view which I expressed in answer to the hon. Member's Question of Juno 25th last.†

  National Education Commissioners and School Managers of Munster.
  MR. FLYNN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state what action the Commissioners of National Education propose to take in view of the action of school managers in Munster and elsewhere in declining to appoint assistant mistresses in boys' schools; and whether, in view of the generally expressed opinions of the managers, the rule will be altered so as to enable the managers to appoint junior assistant masters in such schools.
  MR. BRYCE: The Commissioners of National Education inform me that they have received a resolution urging the appointment of junior assistant masters instead of assistant mistresses in boys' schools under masters, but for the reasons which have already been fully stated the Commissioners do not propose to take any action on the Resolution. The Commissioners state that they continue to receive from clerical managers in all parts of Ireland, including Munster, applications for the appointment of junior assistant mistresses in boys' schools.

  The Case of Patrick McGloin.
  MR. DOLAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that in the case of the holding of Patrick McGloin (Gilbert), of Aghanlish, Largy-donnell, county Leitrim, the Estates Commissioners have now appealed from the decision of the county court judge fixing the tenant's second-term fair rent at £5; that that appeal is solely on the question of the jurisdiction of the county court judge to fix the rent; that no appeal on the question of value has been taken; that that appeal is to the Land Commision, who are thus appellants and judges in the same case; and whether, seeing that the only effect of that appeal, if successful, would be to compel the tenant to buy at
  † See (4) Debates clix., 591.

  1057
  thirty-eight and a half years purchase of the rent fixed by the county court judge, and in view of the comments of the county court judge on the action of the Land Commission towards this tenant, and of the expense incurred by the tenant in defending proceedings brought against him by the Estates Commissioners, he will say what steps he intends to take to protect the tenant from having to purchase on the said terms.
  MR. BRYCE: I am informed that the Estates Commissioners have appealed from the decision of the county court judge upon the question of his jurisdiction to fix a fair rent in the case, having regard to the fact that the Commissioners had already issued an order under Section 19 of the Act, declaring McGloin to be the purchaser of the holding. Until this question of law has been decided, the Commissioners are unable to say how they may eventually deal with the case, and in the meantime they do not think it desirable to enter into the facts alleged in the Question.

  The Department of Agriculture and Experimental Farms.
  SIR THOMAS ESMONDE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if the Veterinary Branch of the Department of Agriculture in Ireland has a laboratory and an experimental farm, as has the similar branch of the English Department of Agriculture, for the purposes of Identifying disease and of research work, and, if not, if he will consider the desirability of furnishing the Irish Department with similar facilities as the English in this respect; if the Treasury has received a memorial from the staff of the Irish Veterinary Department asking to be placed on an equal footing regarding pay with their English confreres; and what was the reply to this request.
  MR. BRYCE: The Answer to the first part of this Question is in the negative. The provision of a laboratory for the diagnosis of disease is engaging attention. There is no present intention of establishing an experimental farm in connection with the Department's Veterinary Branch. A memorial in the sense mentioned has been addressed to the Vice-President of the Department by.a number of Veterinary Inspectors
  1058
  employed in the Veterinary Branch. The Treasury have not as yet been communicated with in the matter, which is under the consideration of the Department.

  Castleblakeney Estate (Ballinasloe).
  MR. MACVEAGH: On behalf of my hon. friend the Member for Galway, I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state if the grass lands of the Castle-blakeney Estate, near Ballinasloe, will be divided amongst the tenantry before next November.
  MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners inform me that they are unable to identify the grass lands referred to from the information furnished in the Question. If the name of the owner should be furnished to them they will make further inquiries.

  Harbour Works at Arklow.
  MR. WALTER LONG: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Harbour Board have now submitted plans and estimates for the proposed works at Arklow, provision for which was made in the Vote for the Ireland Development Grant of 1905–6.
  MR. BRYCE: The Harbour Board have not yet submitted plans and estimates for the proposed works at Arklow. It is desirable that they should do so forthwith in order that the work may be begun. As to the general position, I would refer the right hon. Gentleman to my reply to the Question of the hon. Baronet the Member for North Wexford on Thursday last.†
  SIR THOMAS ESMONDE: Arising out of that Answer, might I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will use his influence to expedite matters?
  MR. BRYCE: I will do all I can, as it is very desirable that the work should be done at the earliest possible moment.

  Proposed Railway between Mullaranny and Belmullet.
  MR. WALTER LONG: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is now in a
  † See (4), Debates, clxi., 1421.

  1059
  position to make any statement with respect to the intention of the Government as to the construction of a line of railway between Mullaranny and Belmullet; and, if not, whether he can undertake that the proposal will receive his personal consideration during the Parliamentary Recess.
  MR. BRYCE: I have lately visited both Mullaranny and Belmullet, and have quite recently received a Report from the Board of Works on the subject of the proposed railway. Inasmuch as there are four competing schemes for lines of railway to Belmullet, even the cheapest of which will involve large expenditure, the subject requires much consideration, and I am not yet in a position to make any statement regarding it. It will, however, continue to engage the attention of the Irish Government.

  Portovogie Harbour Works.
  MR. WALTER LONG: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been directed to a letter addressed, on July 3rd, to the Irish Government by the Down County Council respecting the construction of improvement works at Portavogie Harbour; and whether, with a view to the settlement of plans for carrying out these works, for which funds have been voted by Parliament, but as to the details of which there is a difference of opinion between the county conncil and the Commissioners of Public Works, he will arrange that the Commissioners shall send down their engineer to confer at Portavogie with the committee of the county council.
  MR. BRYCE: I am aware of the correspondence which has taken place in this matter. The difference which has arisen can hardly be described as one respecting details, seeing that the scheme now proposed by the county council is entirely different from that originally put forward by them and accepted by the Government when the right hon. Gentleman was in office. It seems, therefore, to be doubtful whether the case is one for such a conference as is suggested. If the county council are prepared to abide by the arrangement agreed upon, there will be no difficulty in carrying out the works. I understand
  1060
  that the Board of Works do not approve of the change of plans now put forward.
  MR. T. L. CORBETT: Arising out of that Answer, might I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the Board of Works would inform the local officials as to the local inquiry?
  MR. BRYCE: I presume that either the county council or the Irish Government would, but I do not know that anything would be cleared up by bringing in the officials at this stage.

  Wicklow Sea Defences.
  MR. WALTER LONG: I beg to ask; the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether work has yet commenced in the construction of sea defences at Wicklow, if not, what are the reasons for delay, and will he be good enough to undertake that every effort, will be made to commence the work before further serious damage is caused by the depredations of the sea; and if he will also state what is the present condition of the negotiations with respect to the proposed harbour works at Wicklow.
  MR. BRYCE: I understand that work-has not yet begun on these sea defences. The commencement and prosecution of the works rest entirely with the Wicklow Harbour Board, at whoso disposal a sum of £10,000 was placed by the Government for the purpose at the beginning of this year. The Government are disappointed that the works have not yet been commenced, and so far as the Government are concerned, there is no need for further negotiations. They have done all they can to enable the work to be begun forthwith. The Government conditions are well known to the Harbour Board and the other persons locally interested. The plans and estimates of the works have been submitted to the Government by the Harbour Board within the last few days, and are now with the consulting engineer for examination.

  Future Tenants and Fair Rents.
  MR. DOLAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that under existing conditions it is impossible for future tenants in Ireland to avail of the Land Courts to have a fair rent fixed; and whether, in view of the fact that

  1061
  many of them are paying rents 100 per cent, in excess of the values of their holdings, he will take steps to have the alleged grievances of future tenants remedied.
  MR. BRYCE: I beg to refer to my reply to the Question of the hon. Member for South Leitrim on April 3rd, † in which I stated that I was not prepared, in reply to a Question, to discuss the possibility of legislation in regard to future tenants.
  MR. CULLINAN: Might I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether in the recess he will inquire into these cases very closely and see for himself the justice of these claims?

  Irish Fisheries.
  MR. DOLAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that during the past six months the total take in sea fishing has gained by 218,000 cwt. in weight and £150,000 in England, whereas for Ireland the increase is only 2,600 cwt. and £6,000, including shellfish; and will he state whether he can ascertain the reason for the difference in the rates of increase for England and Ireland.
  MR. BRYCE: From the returns at present available it appears that during the first six months of the present year the quantity of fish, excluding shellfish, brought to land in England and Wales has decreased in quantity by 386,796 cwts. or about 8½ per cent., as compared with the corresponding period of last year; while in Ireland the quantity has, during the same period, increased by 2,655 cwts., or ¾ per cent. Including shellfish, the value of the fish brought to land in England and Wales has increased by £149,694, or 4½ per cent.; while in Ireland the increase in value has been £5,947, or 4 per cent. The hon. Member will see, therefore, that, as regards fish properly so-called, there has been a decrease in England and Wales and a small increase in Ireland; while if shellfish is included, there has been an increase at practically the same rate in both countries.

  Disturbances in Dungannon
  MR. CHARLES CRAIG: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the
  † See (4) Debates clv., 363.
  1062
  Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that on the night of the declaration of the poll in the East Tyrone election serious disturbances were caused in Dungannon by crowds of Nationalists, who paraded the streets smashing the windows of many houses in Thomas Street and Market Square; that the police were finally compelled to charge the mob; and that many of the police were hit by stones and other missiles; and what arrests have been made in connection with the disturbance.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that on Thursday night, July 26th, at Dungannon, a band of Nationalists attempted to invade a Protestant quarter, where they broke a number of windows and did serious damage to the property of Unionists; whether he is aware that the police were pelted with stones and shot at with revolvers, several officers being badly beaten; and what steps are being taken in the matter.
  MR. BRYCE: I will answer these two Questions together. The facts stated in the first Question appear to be substantially correct. It is not the fact that the crowd attempted to invade a Protestant quarter, because that part was strongly guarded by the police; but volleys of stones were thrown and some windows broken. Some revolver shots appear to have been fired, but whether charged with bullets cannot be ascertained. No one appears to have been hit. Owing to the darkness—the lamps appear not to have been lit—it was found impossible to identifiy the offenders. The magistrates, in order to prevent any further disturbances, issued a proclamation forbidding band-playing and processions in Dungannon yesterday and to-day, these being occasions on which Party processions are usually in the town.
  MR. MACVEAGH: Arising out of that, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman, whether the disturbance was not commenced by a shower of missiles being thrown at the Nationalists from a house owned by an Orangeman as they were returning to their own quarters?
  MR. BRYCE: I have no information.

  Dublin Councillors and a Carting Contract.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the proceedings of the Dublin Corporation at their meeting on June 11th, when they adopted the Report of a committee of the whole House, dated March 30th, which met to investigate the conduct of Councillor Anthony Madden, High Sheriff of the City of Dublin, and Councillor Thomas O'Reilly, in regard to a carting contract; whether he is aware that the Committee arrived unanimously at the conclusion that the circumstances disclosed were discreditable to the two councillors named; and whether any action is contemplated with a view to relieving them from their present responsibilities.
  MR. BRYCE: The Local Government Board have no information concerning the proceedings of the Corporation in this matter beyond that which has appeared in the Dublin newspaper. The Board have no power to intervene in the matter.

  Superintendent Talbot and a Dublin Reporter
  MR. CLANCY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether any complaint has reached his office in Dublin as to the action of Superintendent Talbot, of the Dublin Metropolitan Police, in interfering on the 25th June last with the discharge of his duties, in the Kingstown Police Court, by Mr. Hawe, a reporter on one of the Dublin daily newspapers, by ordering him out of a seat at the table in the Court in question; if so, has any action been taken, or is it intended to take any action on the complaint; and whether any policeman has any authority of his own to order any representative of the Press or any member of the public to sit or not to sit in any particular place in any Court.
  MR. BRYCE: A complaint to the effect stated has been received, and the matter has been inquired into by the Chief Commissioner of the Dublin Metropolitan Police. The Chief Commissioner is satisfied that Superintendent Talbot's action on the occasion in question was taken with the object of preserving the usual arrangements which prevail
  1064
  in the Kingstown Police Court. It appears that Mr. Hawe was sitting at the table reserved for solicitors, and the superintendent indicated to him the usual seat occupied by reporters. The general arrangements of the Court are made- by the magistrates, and the police on duty carry them out. The Chief Commissioner is of opinion that it would have been wiser for the superintendent to have left the matter in the hands of the court sergeant, whose duty it is to see that the magistrate's arrangements are carried out. No incivility, however, appears to have been intended by the superintendent, who subsequently expressed to Mr. Hawe his regret that that gentleman had misunderstood his remarks.
  MR. CLANCY: I understand from the right hon. Gentleman's Answer that the superintendent admitted that he had acted wrongly on this occasion. Has the superintendent apologised to the gentleman whom he insulted?
  MR. BRYCE: I do not think it is a case of insult. It was mentioned to the superintendent and he expressed his regret. It is not an incident of very great moment, and I think it might now be regarded as closed.

  Appointments to the Magistracy in County Antrim.
  MR. CHARLES CRAIG: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if the recent appointments by the Lord Chancellor of Ireland to the magistracy in the county of Antrim were made with the concurrence of His Excellency the Lord-Lieutenant, or if he had been consulted beforehand; whether they were made with the concurrence of His Majesty's Lieutenant of the county; if not, was the Lord Chancellor informed by him that there was no public need for any additional justices; on what considerations did the Lord Chancellor act in making the appointments; who is responsible for the status and respectability of the gentlemen so appointed by the Lord Chancellor where the Lieutenant of the county declines to concur; and what number of justices were available in the Ballymoney, Ballymena, and Larne districts respectively, before the recent appointments.
  An HON. MEMBER: Before the right hon. Gentleman answers that Question may I put to him a Question of which I had given him private notice, whether he is aware that the magisterial bench has been and is at present composed almost entirely of Tories and Orangemen, and that with one exception the Lieutenants of the counties are all Tories and Orangemen; whether he is aware that Catholics and liberals are over 85 per cent, of the country, and whether he will appoint to the Commission of the Peace a number of Nationalists and Liberals in proportion to the population.
  MR. BRYCE: The notice to which the hon. Gentleman has referred has not reached me. I did not know this Question would be put to me to-day, and I am not prepared to answer it. I may say the appointment of magistrates does not rest with me, but with the Lord Chancellor. As to the Question on the Paper, I have referred this Question to the Lord Chancellor, who has favoured me with the following observations:—The appointment of county magistrates rests with the Lord Chancellor, as Keeper of the Great Seal. The Lord-Lieutenant's concurrence in such appointments is not necessary, nor is His Excellency consulted in the matter. The recent appointments to the magistracy for county Antrim were made by the Lord Chancellor upon his own responsibility, and without the concurrence of His Majesty's Lieutenant of the county. The Lord Chancellor had carefully inquired into the suitability for the magistracy of the gentlemen in question, whose names he communicated to the Lieutenant of the county; but having waited for what he considered a sufficient time without receiving any reply from the Lieutenant, he considered it his duty, without further delay, to take upon himself the entire responsibility for the appointments. In so doing, he acted within his undoubted right. He considered the gentlemen whom he appointed to be fit and proper persons for the magistracy, and he deemed their appointment to be desirable. In considering the appointment of magistrates, the Lord Chancellor has always been desirous of securing the co-operation, and assistance of His Majesty's Lieutenant in each county, and he has been fortunate enough to receive such co-operation in nearly every case. It has, however, never been obligatory on
  1066
  the Lord Chancellor to confine the scope of his inquiries to any one source, or to limit his information to that which the Lieutenant of a county may afford him; and the Lord Chancellor reserves to himself the liberty to determine whether additional appointments may be desirable in any particular place. In making the appointments for county Antrim, in what the Lord Chancellor considered to be the public interest, he had before him the number of magistrates and the composition of the Benches in the particular district referred to in the Question.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELL: Is it not a fact that 90 per cent, belonged to one political and religious Party?
  MR. BRYCE: I have no information as to that.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELL: I know it.
  AN HON. MEMBER: This Question appeared on the Paper for another day and I sent a letter to the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary giving him private notice both to his house and to his office.
  MR. BRYCE: I did not understand that the Question was going to be put as a supplementary Question to-day. I probably looked at it as a matter I should have to answer in due course, but not as a matter I should have to answer to-day.

  Dr Starkie and Kerry School Managers.
  MR. MURPHY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has received a Resolution of the Kerry Catholic school managers asking for the removal of Dr. Starkie from connection with the administration of primary education in Ireland; whether he is aware that similar Resolutions have been passed by many other representative bodies in Ireland; and whether he intends to take any steps to comply with the wishes of a large number of the Irish people in this matter.
  MR. BRYCE: I have seen the Resolution referred to. It is not within my knowledge that similar Resolutions have been passed by many other bodies, as stated in the Question. The Government do not propose to dispense with the services of an official whose capacity and

  1067
  energy they value so highly as they do those of the Resident Commissioner.
  MR. MURPHY: Arising out of that Answer might I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he thinks it is conciliatory to Irish opinion that he should proceed by Answers in this House to load this Gentleman with excessive praise?
  MR. BRYCE: I speak of what I know, and I believe Dr. Starkie to be a gentleman of very high integrity.
  MR. MURPHY: Might I ask, having regard to the fact that every Catholic in Ireland is opposed to Dr. Starkie, whether the right hon. Gentleman will consider the advisability of transferring him elsewhere?
  MR. BRYCE: It has never been brought to my knowledge that every Catholic in Ireland is opposed to him.
  MR. SLOAN: Is it not a fact that Dr. Starkie is a Roman Catholic himself?
  MR. BRYCE: I believe that is so.

  Appointment of County Magistrates.
  MR. HIGHAM: I beg to ask the Prime Minister if the recent appointments by the Lord Chancellor to the magistracy in the counties were made on the suggestion of the Lords Lieutenant; and how far the Chancellor is prepared to act on the Resolution of the House of Commons of May 5th, 1893.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Sir H. CAMPBELL - BANNERMAN,): Some of the recent appointments in the counties were made on the suggestion of the Lords-Lieutenant in the usual way. Many were made on the suggestion of other persons after communication with the Lords-Lieutenant. I stated early in this session that the policy embodied in the Resolution referred to was approved by His Majesty's Government and it has been continuously acted on since the present Government came into power. If my hon. friend will explain what it is in particular that he wishes to see done and ask a Question.
  1068
  there will be no difficulty in telling him whether it will be done or not.

  The Limited Partnerships Bill.
  SIR WILLIAM HOLLAND: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he will allow the Limited Partnerships Bill to be starred, so that it may be considered in the autumn session, seeing that it has already passed through the House of Lords and has the undivided support of the banking and commercial interests of the country.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: The Government are very well disposed towards this Bill, but I cannot give any pledge of facilities at this stage.

  THE AUTUMN SITTINGS.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: It would be convenient if the right hon Gentleman the Prime Minister would now give us the terms of the Resolution that he will move on Saturday for the rising of the House, giving us first the date of the reassembling and telling us whether the Resolution will provide for the taking of the whole of the time of the House by the Government and what business the Government intend to put down on the first day the House reassembles.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: The date of the reassembling of the House will be October 23rd. The Motion which I shall propose for suspending the sittings until that date will include the Resolution to give all the time of the autumn sittings to Government business. The business on the first day will be the Merchant Shipping Bill and the Trade Disputes Bill.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman will consider the desirability for leaving a part of the first day upon which we reassemble for private Members' Motions. The reason I ask the Question is that owing to a misunderstanding with reference to Irish Estimates we were prevented from raising most important questions with regard to Irish education which could under the circumstances be taken as a private Member's Motion.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I do not think I can make any exception for any individual case.
  MR. WALTER LONG: On the reassembling of the House, will the eleven o'clock rule be suspended all through the sittings?
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I do not know what we may come to, but we certainly shall not start with the suspension of the eleven o'clock rule. All that will be done will be to give precedence to and limit the sittings to Government business.
  MR. MORTON: May I ask at what hour this House will meet on Saturday morning?
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I think on such occasions it usually meets at ten o'clock.
  *MR. MORTON: I beg to give notice that at an early date I intend to call attention to the appointment of magistrates in the counties of Scotland, and to move a Resolution thereon.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to—Revenue Bill; Post Office Sites Bill; Post Office (Literature for the Blind) Bill; Charitable Loan Societies (Ireland) Bill; Dean Forest Bill; Deanery of Manchester Bill, without Amendment.
Amendments to:—Gas and Water 'Orders Confirmation Bill [Lords]; Gas Orders Confirmation (No. 1) Bill [Lords]; Gas Orders Confirmation (No. 2) Bill [Lords]; Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill [Lords]; Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 4) Bill [Lords]; Tramways Orders Confirmation Bill [Lords]; County of Durham Electric Power Supply Bill [Lords]; Great Northern (Ireland) and Midland Railways Bill [Lords]; Nettlebed and District Commons (Preservation) Bill [Lords]; Shropshire, Worcestershire, and Staffordshire Electric Power Bill [Lords]; without Amendment.

GROUND GAME BILL.
Lords Amendments to be considered forthwith; considered, and agreed to.
OPEN SPACES BILL.
Lords Amendment to be considered forthwith; considered, and agreed to.
NEW MEMBER SWORN.
Thomas Michael Kettle, esquire, for the County of Tyrone (East Tyrone Division).
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (SUPPLY).
Ordered, That on this day, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 15, Business other than Business of Supply may be taken before Eleven of the clock.—(Sir H. Campbell-Bannerman.)
SUPPLY [20TH ALLOTTED DAY] [31ST JULY]-REPORT.
Resolutions reported.
SUPPLY [20TH ALLOTTED DAY] [31ST JULY]-REPORT.
  CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1906–7.
    CLASS II.
    1. "That a sum, not exceeding £29,050, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1907, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of His Majesty's Secretary of State for the Colonies, including a Grant in Aid of certain Expenses connected with Emigration."

    CLASS I.
    2. "That a sum, not exceeding £707,580, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1907, for Expenditure on the Services included in Class I. of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz.:—

    £

    5.

    Miscellaneous Legal Buildings, Great Britain

    34,800

    6.

    Art and Science Buildings, Great Britain

    45,800

    10.

    Surveys of the United Kingdom

    124,578

    11.

    Harbours under the Board of Trade

    14,606

    12.

    Peterhead Harbour

    22,000

    13.

    Rates on Government Property

    340,656

    14.

    Public Works and Buildings, Ireland

    96,477

    15.

    Railways, Ireland

    28,663

    £707,580"

    CLASS II.
    3. "That a sum, not exceeding £1,203,002, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on 31st day of March, 1907, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class II. of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz.:—

    £

    1.

    House of Lords Offices

    10,210

    2.

    House of Commons Offices

    17,900

    3.

    Treasury and Subordinate Departments

    59,911

    4.

    Home Office

    124,085

    8.

    Board of Trade

    160,379

    9.

    Mercantile Marine Services

    69,873

    10.

    Bankruptcy Department of the Board of Trade

    5

    12.

    Charity Commission

    16,079

    16.

    Local Government Board

    147,470

    17.

    Lunacy Commission, England

    10,736

    22.

    Registrar-General's Office, England

    25,412

    23.

    Stationery and Printing

    401,480

    24.

    Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues, etc., Office

    12,756

    25.

    Works and Public Buildings Office

    45,278

    26.

    Secret Service

    10,000

    SCOTLAND.

    27.

    Secretary for Scotland's Office

    9,750

    28.

    Fishery Board

    13,691

    29.

    Lunacy Commission

    3,731

    30.

    Registrar-General's Office

    3,241

    31.

    Local Government Board for Scotland

    10,470

    IRELAND.

    32.

    Household of Lord Lieutenant of Ireland

    2,672

    35.

    Charitable Donations and Bequests Office

    1,049

    37.

    Public Record Office, Ireland

    3,484

    38.

    Public Works Office

    23,938

    39.

    Registrar General's Office

    7,132

    40.

    Valuation and Boundary Survey (including a Supplementary sum of £1,000).

    12,276

    £1,203,002"

    CLASS III.
    4. "That a sum, not exceeding £2,077,936, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1907, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class III. of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz.:—

    £

    1.

    Law Charges

    31,954

    2.

    Miscellaneous Legal Expenses

    21,914

    3.

    Supreme Court of Judicature

    179,066

    4.

    Land Registry

    25,602

    5.

    Country Courts

    2

    7.

    Prisons, England and the Colonies

    394,255

    8.

    Reformatory and Industrial Schools, Great Britain

    113,977

    9.

    Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum

    27,121

    SCOTLAND.

    10.

    Law Charges and Courts of Law

    50,828

    11.

    Register House, Edinburgh

    27,745

    12.

    Crofters' Commission

    2,445

    13.

    Prisons

    52,600

    IRELAND.

    14.

    Law Charges and Criminal Prosecutions

    32,652

    15.

    Supreme Court of Judicature and other Legal Departments

    59,586

    16.

    Irish Land Commission

    124,215

    17.

    County Court Officers, etc.

    66,088

    18.

    Dublin Metropolitan Police

    35,721

    19.

    Royal Irish Constabulary

    710,038

    20.

    Prisons

    62,556.

    21.

    Reformatory and Industrial Schools

    55,995

    22.

    Dundrum Criminal Lunatic Asylum

    3,576

    £2,077,936"

    CLASS IV.
    5. "That a sum, not exceeding £8,387,882, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come

    1073
    in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1907 for Expenditure in respect of the Services, included in Class IV. of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz.: —

    £

    1.

    Board of Education (including a Supplementary Sum of £200,000)

    6,339,600

    2.

    British Museum

    99,998

    3.

    National Gallery

    7,038

    4.

    National Portrait Gallery

    2,619

    5.

    Wallace Collection

    3,821

    6.

    Scientific Investigation, etc., United Kingdom

    33,650

    7.

    Universities and Colleges, Great Britain, and Intermediate Education, Wales

    140,400

    8.

    Public Education, Scotland

    1,122,128

    9.

    National Gallery etc., Scotland

    768

    IRELAND.

    10.

    Public Education

    633,223

    11.

    Endowed Schools Commissioners

    510

    12.

    National Gallery

    1,766

    13.

    Queen's Colleges

    2,361

    £8,387,882"

    CLASS V.
    6. "That a sum, not exceeding £1,196,905, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1907, for Expenditure on the Services included in Class V. of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz.:—

    £

    1.

    Diplomatic and Consular Services

    303,856

    2.

    Colonial Services

    827,952

    3.

    Telegraph Subsidies and Pacific Cable

    49,497

    4.

    Cyprus (Grant in Aid)

    1,000

    5.

    Treasury Chest Fund

    14,600

    £1,196,905"

    CLASS VI.
    7. "That a sum, not exceeding £582, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the
    1074
    Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1907, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class VI. of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz.:—

    £

    3.

    Miscellaneous, Charitable, and other Allowances

    383

    4.

    Hospitals and Charities, Ireland

    199

    £582"

    CLASS VII.
    8. "Thai a sum, not exceeding £350,759, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1907, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class VII. of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz.:—

    £

    1.

    Temporary Commissions

    27,000

    2.

    Miscellaneous Expenses

    10,743

    3.

    Repayments to the Local loans Fund

    58

    4.

    Ireland Development Grant

    85,000

    5.

    Repayments to Civil Contingencies Fund

    22,958

    6.

    Inter - Parliamentary Conference

    5,000

    7.

    Expenses under the Unemployed Workmen Act,1905

    200,000

    £350,759"

    ARMY ESTIMATES 1906–7.
    9 "That a sum, not exceeding £1,803,100, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1907, for Expenditure on the Army Services, including Army (Ordnance Factories), viz.:—

    £

    5.

    Volunteer Corps, Pay and Allowances

    1,244,000

    13.

    War Office and Army Accounts Department

    559,000

    Ordnance Factories

    100

    £1,803,100 "

    Resolutions read a second time:
    First Two Resolutions postponed.
    Third Resolution: —
    *SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid upon this Vote an opportunity was given for raising certain questions which were of greater importance than was generally recognised. But on this occasion, when one saw so many new Members of the House who had a personal acquaintance with them in a degree more marked than that which previously existed in the House, there would be an opportunity of dividing this question between a larger number than was usually the case. While in past years the miners had been well represented on this Vote, there had been a great absence of those concerned with other trades. There were now present in the House a much larger number of Members who had a personal and more detailed knowledge of the working of the great trades though less of those which were most helped by inspection by Government departments. The great organised trades were, to some extent, able to protect themselves, and the miners, working under special rules, were closely regulated by law, and did not have to depend on the Department. The great textile trades were now represented by three Members in whom they had full confidence, but nevertheless there was one class of workers, especially women workers, whoso fate depended in a great degree on legislation and the enforcement of the law. Therefore there was one subject which always occupied the attention of the Committee on this Vote, namely, the efficiency of the law and inspection as regards those trades. It was only with the administration that the Committee could deal on this Vote, and year by year they had always called attention to the smallness of the number of women inspectors. On the woman inspectors especially fell the duty of enforcing the law in cases where inspection was most necessary. Early in the session questions were addressed to the Secretary of State as to the necessity of increasing the staff of women inspectors, and certain promises were made, and he understood there was to be an immediate increase of three. He would ask the right hon. Gentleman to tell the House what was the state of affairs with regard to the women inspectors. They were still,
    1076
    he understood, engaged in clerical duties and special inquires which took them off their regular work. The nominal staff, therefore, was much larger than the real staff. The increase in the number of working places was more rapid every year, and in the present year the increase of work-places under inspection was 28,000; and for all the work there were in all 154 inspectors, and inspectors' assistants, male and female, including all those detached for medical and other departments, etc. for special duty. The dangerous trades carried on under special regulations were increasing, and required more inspection. The result of the shortness of staff was seen in the Report. Miss Anderson, the principal lady inspector, reported "a representative case," Involving a long series of visits. The underground departments of a "world-famed provision manufacturer" were concerned, and "the firm had opposed every suggestion of improvement." But the manager ultimately promised to persuade the firm to remedy the "glaring defects" which had been pointed out. Miss Anderson added in her Report—
    "It remains to note the results when a visit is possible."
    That was the result of the smallness of the staff of women inspectors. Not only were the numbers of complaints increasing, but the arrears were increasing also, so that a large number of complaints had to be set aside because there was no one to deal with them. A subject closely connected with that of the increase of the inspectorate was the extension of the principle of "particulars" to all piecework trades. As to some trades where the necessity was admitted — such as the paper bag and paper box trades—the "particulars" order had hung fire for many years. Three new industries were reported on as long ago as 1902, and yet the order had not been made in respect of them. How many such cases had the Home Office now under consideration? If it was impossible to get the extension of "particulars" To all piecework trades, the orders should be granted at once where the Inquiry was complete and the report had been received. In 1895 a Grand Committee considered a factory Bill, and some proposals were made to introduce a new

    1077
    system. In regard to the sweated industries, one of the proposals made in 1895 was the introduction of the New Zealand license system, but objection was taken to it on the ground that it would throw such work on the Department as would cause a breakdown of the whole system. A good deal of work under the Factory Act of 1901 was thrown on the local authorities, but the statement made by himself and others at that time that the duty would not be performed by some local authorities had been borne out. The Report now before the House stated that there was no provision by which the enforcement of the law by the local authorities in regard to "particulars" was possible. To his own knowledge there were within ten miles of this House medical officers of health of the local authorities, with all their staffs of sanitary inspectors behind them, who were absolutely unacquainted with the law on this subject, and who did not know what "particulars" were. On the other hand the Home Office inspectors, feeling that the local authorities were responsible for the enforcement of the other provisions of the law in those cases, had but rare opportunities of visiting the homes in which this work was carried on. The result was that the grant of "particulars" In those cases was illusory. He would suggest that something must be done to overcome this great difficulty by means of the issue of a circular to sanitary inspectors and medical officers calling attention to the fact that they might call in the inspectors of factories. As regarded the feebler trades, of which the greatest complaints had been made in the past, they were able to see some slight improvement, due partly to the Report laid annually before the House and the publicity which was given to that Report, and partly in some trades to the excellent results accomplished by social unions, and partly to the debates in this House. But the progress was not sufficient. The public had recently been startled by extracts from the factory inspectors' reports on the jam trade. It was bad enough now, but that trade was infinitely better than it was some years ago. The same thing might be said with regard to the fish-curing industry.
    1078
    During the discussions on the Bill of 1901 an optional clause was inserted by which the owners of jam factories were to make special provisions in regard to the standard weights carried by the employees. But still we were infinitely behind France in regard to the carrying of weights by women and children. On page 296 of the Report one of the women inspectors said—
    "the heavy weights carried by young persons—equally striking in textile factories— whenever there is a fairly abundant supply of young, cheap labour The carrying, pushing or pulling of heavy weights was one of the duties of the apprentice in almost every trade."
    She went on to describe having found a child carrying a bundle which was proved to weigh 44 lbs, and that it was "pitiful to see the twisted little figures of the children doing their best to accomplish more than they were physically fit for." Miss Martindale, another lady inspector, said that she was "unable to give as much attention as formerly to the carrying of heavy weights by women and children." But in visiting one factory she had seen a boy "carrying a piece of clay weighing 69 lbs., his own weight being 77 lbs." She re-visited that factory two years afterwards and found that the boy was hardly grown, and only weighed" 81 lbs., an increase of only 4 lbs. "In two years. She added that the" undersized condition of many of the pottery workers was owing to the excessive physical strain to which they had been subjected in their early years."there were many other trades on which that remark could be made. All these matters brought them back to the point as to the necessity for increasing the number of competent skilled inspectors. Just as there had been an improvement in the fruit-preserving industry, and in the fish-curing industry, so there had been an improvement in the lead industry compared with three or four years ago; but still there was immense room for progress. At page 291 of the Report, the inspector made this significant comment—
    " It is disappointing to find that the number of cases of plumbism amongst the women workers in the potteries has not decidedly decreased."
    And then she went on to say on page 292 that—
    " A great deal of the ill-health and low vitality among the pottery workers."

    1079
    would not be decreased until the Special Rules were more strictly enforced.
    The words were—
    " Until the standard of carrying out the Special Rules has been raised throughout the potteries the amount of ill-health amongst the workers will not be lessened to any considerable extent. There was a lack of interest in taking any further precautions than those required by the exact text of the Special Rules, and this was illustrated in one factory where during two and a half years eleven cases of plumbism amongst women had been reported, and nine cases of other ill-health, probably due to the employment. On investigation it was found that although there was fair compliance with the Special Rules, the workers had been engaged in processes which, although not prohibited, were still highly undesirable employment for women and girls, owing to the quantity of lead with which they came in contact."
    Another inspector reported that—
    " Although some manufacturers were doubtless doing their utmost to comply with the regulations, the most striking feature to be observed in the inspection of the potteries was the absolute failure of the occupiers and managers to realise their responsibility with reference to the carrying out of the Special Rules."
    This was another case of insufficiency of inspection, because these Special Rules were highly technical and required highly trained and competent inspectors. Under this Vote they could not deal with legislation; but two or three Departmental Committees had been appointed to make suggestions in regard to future legislation. His right hon. friend the Lord Advocate was Chairman of the Committee on Truck, and he was sure that they would all be anxious to receive the full Report of that Committee with a view to legislation as soon as possible. There was another Committee as to which he wished to make some inquiry, and that was the Committee to deal with the pressing matter of insurance under the Workmen's Compensation Act. The House would remember that when the Bill was discussed he had put forward an Amendment raising this question of insurance in a general form. In the debate which followed his right hon. friend made a promise for the appointment of a Committee, and, being satisfied with that promise, he withdrew his Amendment. That promise was somewhat toned down on the
    1080
    following day by the Under-Secretary, but it was afterwards renewed in the same terms in which it was originally made. He would like the Home Secretary to State clearly the nature of the promise, because the subject was becoming more and more pressing. He begged to move the reduction of the Vote by £100.
    *MR. J. RAMSAY MACDONALD, in seconding the Motion, said that the difficulty which Members experienced in taking part in a discussion on the Home Office Vote was the enormous width of the subjects which lay before them. For instance, there were the many problems which had been raised by the Sweating Exhibition in the Queen's Hall. There was also the question to which his right hon. friend had referred, of the relations between the Home Office and the local sanitary authorities. Personally he considered that to be one of the most important questions which the Home Office would have to face. A Return which had been presented upon his Motion showing how certain.sections of the Factories and Workshops Act were supposed to be administered, was really appalling in the facts which it disclosed, and the evidence which it afforded of that working. He never believed that these sections were being well administered, but he never thought that they were so badly administered as that Return disclosed. He refrained, however, from entering into that question, because there was one important matter which he wished to refer to, which was, he thought, fundamental to everything, and that was not so much the increase as the organisation of the staff of factory inspectors. He did not wish to dissociate himself from the proposals which were being made for a substantial increase of the inspectorate, and he himself desired an increase of that body. But they Wanted not only numbers, but quality, and it was a question not only of increasing the staff, but of increasing their efficiency. Some months ago he drew the attention of the House to the syllabus which had been issued in regard to the appointment of factory inspectors. All he could then do was to draw the attention of the House to the character of the preparation required, and he pointed out

    1081
    that the practical part of the examination had been dropped, that the examinations had become theoretical, and that its theory was of such a character that nobody who had not been to a University could hope to pass. He was now in a position to put before the House one or two questions which had been set at the recent examination under this syllabus. It must be remembered that these questions were put to the men who were to inspect machinery and see if it was properly guarded and whether there was any danger in the manner in which factories were carried on. The first question in English history was—
    " How did William the Conqueror deal with the lands of the conquered? Is he correctly described as introducing the ' feudal system ' into England? "
    Another question was—
    " Give an account of the relations between England and Scotland from the time of William I. to the death of Edward I"
    Question number 7 was—
    " Describe the process of confiscation of Church lands under Henry VIII. and Edward VI."
    Another question was—
    "Describe briefly the relations between Elizabeth and her Parliament. Do you consider that she was more or less despotic than Henry VIII.?"
    Question 10 ran—
    " Describe the treatment of the Roman Catholics throughout the 17th century."
    And Question 15 was as follows:
    " Compare the extent of the British Empire in the 16th century with its extent in the 19th, and show the difference between the old Colonial policy or system of the 18th century and that of to-day."
    Finally, and he supposed the reason for this question was that the Labour Party had sailed into the political horizon, candidates were asked—:
    " Show historically how the participation of the democracy in the Government of the country in the 19th century has broadened the power and humanized the policy of England both at home and abroad."
    That was the sort of questions in regard to history which were set to gentlemen who had to administer the Factory Laws and protect the lives and limbs of our people and see that the industrial law was properly administered. Taking the syllabus in regard to Economics it also contained extraordinary questions to
    1082
    be answered by this class of men. One was—
    " Enumerate the essential points in the economic conception of a perfect market. To what extent are these conditions realised in the special conditions of the retail and wholesale markets, the money market, and the Stock Exchange? What conditions limit the development of the markets."
    Another question was—
    " What is meant by the mobility of labour? How far is labour mobile to-day? Is its mobility implied in the theory of wages? "
    A further question ran—
    "the Ricardian theory of rent is true, perhaps, of a particular time and place; it does not, however, apply in general to India," or in places in which the system of 'Metayage' prevails. Examine this view."
    The candidate also had this put before him—
    " Unless we are prepared to say that machinery is an evil, we cannot on economic grounds condemn as an evil the importation of cheap labour; whether it should be condemned on social grounds is another question. Examine and discuss."
    These were the nonsensical questions addressed to a candidate in order to establish his competence as a factory inspector. There was absolutely nothing on the practical side except that which was contained in Question 3. He gave this as an illustration on the other side, lest he should be unfair. That question was—
    " Examine critically the arguments that are commonly used in support of Factory Legislation. What were the most important features of the Act of 1884?"
    The point he wanted to emphasise was that so far as men of practical experience were concerned that syllabus was a clear and decisive notice that they were not wanted by the Home Office at all. Twenty-one nominations were made for seven vacancies, but not one of the assistant inspectors were nominated for examination. There was one nomination given to a clerk at the Home Office who had been a clerk in the Inspector's office, and that was the nearest approach to the nomination of a practical man. Mr. Daly, the organising secretary of the Amalgamated Tailors, wrote an article in which he discussed factory inspection from his point of view, in which he condemned the present system. A public inquiry, he declared, would disclose at the Home Office the same

    1083
    absence of administrative ability, the same power of social influence in the matter of promotion, and the same incompetence generally as was revealed as the result of the War Office Commission. His point was made still stronger by the sort of playing at inspection that took place. Two iron founders were appointed assistant inspectors because of their special ability, but they were employed not to inspect iron foundries but to look after dressmakers' assistants. The chairman of the Building Trades Federation was so disgusted to find that the duty assigned to him was to walk about certain districts at 11 o'clock at night to see whether the law was being observed in milliners' establishments that he threw up his post of assistant inspector. Two engineers and a cotton spinner had for thirteen years been looking after the dressmakers of South London. These men were appointed to do practical work, but were compelled to waste their time and the public money in this pettifogging tomfoolery. In a case of lead poisoning reported recently in the newspapers the case was discovered by the assistant inspector, but no sooner did he discover it than he had to drop it and report to a superior. He had to drop the whole thing although he had been reporting that the washing apparatus was inadequate and likely to result in disease. That was the rule of the department. No assistant inspector was allowed to deal with these dangerous poisoning cases. In the case of anthrax, too, these assistant inspectors went into the places where it is bred, but could do nothing when the disease appeared. Then in regard to the particulars clause. The moment an assistant inspector discovered in a work-room that the particulars had been imperfectly supplied and that the work came from a factory they could go no further, but had to report to a higher official, who had himself to go and make up his mind as to whether it was a case for a prosecution. He understood that the hon. Member for Bolton was going to raise the question of overtime cribbing, and he would say nothing about that except that he understood they were going to ask the police to assist in putting a stop to that, but they had not asked the assistance of the assistant inspector. The Truck Act also it was almost impossible
    1084
    to administer owing to the difficulty of tracing goods back. As showing the way the assistant inspectors were treated, he would point out that a monthly circular was issued from the Home Office giving information of everything that had happened during the month in the administration of the work of the Office, the legal decisions, changes in the law, changes in the responsible heads and so on. Although on the average half the circular dealt with things which assistant inspectors were concerned with, not a single copy was sent to any one of them, and when on one occasion by accident a copy was addressed to all the assistant inspectors, within twenty-four hours they were requested by letter to return it, as it had been sent by mistake. Was not the whole system of inspection absolute tomfoolery? Plain speaking was necessary in this matter. Those outside who had been watching carefully the inspection work of the Home Office had felt for a long time that matters instead of improving had been going from bad to worse. It was high time that this system which had grown up piecemeal, and which had never been adapted to the new conditions, should be made the subject of careful inquiry. The Home Office should make up its mind whether the assistant inspectors were worth keeping on. The time had come for the Home Office to consider what the organisation of the Factory Inspection Department was going to be. He challenged the Department to lay itself open to an inquiry. He challenged it to come before the public and give evidence to justify itself in drawing this clearly marked line between the full and the assistant inspectors, to justify the tendency that has gone so far towards divorcing the inspectors from the class with which they had to deal. This was a question of reorganising the staff, of increasing the efficiency. If he had to put it strongly and say they were not going to rest content with the present state of things it was because he was speaking for the wage-earning people of this country.
    Amendment proposed—
    "To leave out '£1,203,002,' and insert '£1,202,902.' "— (Sir Charles Dilke.)
    Question proposed, "That '£1,203,002' stand part of the said Resolution."
    MR. TENNANTsaid the most salient feature in connection with the issue of the new Blue-book was the interest almost amounting to excitement at the sudden discovery that all our food manufactories were not all that they ought to be. Why this new interest ! There was certainly no new fact. The British public were a truly apathetic body. It seemed to require at least two members of one family to be boiled alive at Chicago before interest could be aroused. Any time these last ten years past cases had been brought before this House of intense dirtiness of jam factories, fish-curing places, chocolate manufactories and others, and the public had been not perturbed. And yet, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Forest of Dean had said, these places had been improved. Take any of the old reports. He took that for 1898 at random, and he found that both Miss Deane and Miss Paterson spoke of indescribable dirt, dilapidation and disorder.
    "the impression sometimes carried away from inspection of one of these places was that a building too insanitary for any other purpose was considered fit for the manufacture of jam and pickles."
    In another Report, that for 1902, Miss Paterson had said:—
    "In a new fruit preserving factory where considerable use was made of the exception which permits unlimited hours of work in order that fruit may be preserved in as fresh a condition as possible, I found the cleansing of the fruit being done in the hot and steamy boiling room. Built into the same room and ventilating directly into it was the sanitary accommodation. This had been primarily intended for a cloakroom, but its possibilities as a place to store fruit had been realised, and I found it in use for that purpose. Even the lavatory basin was piled high with fresh fruit."
    These cases had been brought forward year after year, and no one had paid any attention. Only a handful of interested and informed Gentlemen, such as he saw present now, and two bewildered and embarrassed Members of the late Administration were there to listen. It was only when they heard at their backs the grunting of the hogs of Chicago that they were able to get any attention given to the subject. Perhaps now they might
    1086
    hope for better things. Closely allied with the jam trade was the preserving of fish. Anybody who studied this Report, especially the very interesting Report from Miss Paterson as to the conditions prevailing in the North of Scotland, particularly Shetland, would feel how instinct that Report was with the anxiety and desire to improve the lot of those fisher-girls, an anxiety and desire it seemed very difficult to put into effect. The conditions of the fish-curing industry were very bad, and there was a very high death-rate. Miss Paterson spoke of a great lack of sanitary accommodation, and she particularly dwelt on the shy and sensitive feelings of these Highland girls, to whom the common obligations of decency seemed to be denied. This absence of sanitary accommodation not only produced grave risks to the girls, but to the public health as well. A very common excuse made by employers in this industry was that these girls were only there between three and five week's at the outside and, therefore, it was not' worth while spending money on sanitary conveniences and effecting other desirable improvements. It was, one curer expressed it, in the nature of a summer outing. But with the exception of the Shetlanders, practically all the women in the industry worked at it for six months in the year. Kipperers worked the whole year round. The irregular hours of work made it all the more necessary that the conditions of work should be satisfactory. Another extraordinary fact was that drinking water was almost impossible to be obtained in many cases, and one of the lairds charged 1s. a barrel for it. What was the right hon. Gentleman prepared to do with regard to the appalling conditions of employment of girls who worked in foreign ships at British ports? The Report said —
    " We found the complaint fully justified and the conditions so bad that it was amazing to us that women could be found to accept work under them.…It is difficult to write moderately about the living and the sleeping quarters provided for these women. Down in the hold of the ship boards were laid on the top of the herring barrels, and on these, with some tarpaulin laid on them, the women slept, and not only slept hut cooked their food; the hatch above the hold, if open, would admit some light, and would also of course, admit the rain. There was no attempt at either cleanliness or comfort; indeed we had

    1087
    felt some indignation when we saw, on our way north, some Shetland cattle lowered for one night into similar quarters to those in which these women live for long periods."
    It was a disgraceful state of things, and he hoped his right hon. friend would communicate with the proper authorities to see if they could not have improvement in these conditions. He came to an old subject of his, namely, that of means of escape in case of fire. The Report showed numerous instances in which narrow wooden and, in many cases, steep staircases were the only outlets. His right, hon. friend might say that this was the business of the local authority, and that they ought to have put their powers in force. That was quite true, but where less than forty persons were employed the Home Office had no compulsory powers over the local authority as it ought to have. There again he trusted his right hon. friend was fully impressed with the urgency of the question. The Report showed that even in new factories the means of escape in the event of fire were very inadequate. For example, in one factory visited by Miss Martindale, which had been built as recently as eighteen months ago, she found 160 workers employed on the top floor from which there was no exit except one staircase. Miss Squire reported that a chief officer of a Fire Brigade told her he had himself in vain reported to the corporation that a factory was very unsafe years ago. She had written to the local authority and had received a reply that the Committee were of opinion that no additional means of escape could be provided at a "reasonable expense." Were they going to wait to provide real means of escape from fire until it could be provided at a reasonable expense? The whole of this subject required investigation, and he trusted the right hon. Gentleman would re-appoint the Select Committee on Fire, appointed last session, at the earliest opportunity, and that it would go thoroughly into the matter and report what ought to be done. He now came to such questions as precaution for life and limb in electrical generating works. It was an extremely dangerous trade, the workers being struck down without anything in the nature of a warning.
    1088
    There was in the inspector's Report in all eighteen deaths from this cause in the year. He did not say they were all electrical deaths, but they were all due to shocks or falls or other accidents on account of shocks. Five of the eighteen were on railways, four in mines, three in consumers' premises, and six under the Factory Act. Of course there were in addition a large number of injuries. Special regulations were recommended for this trade seven years ago, but none existed at the present day. The Home Office had pursued a policy of reliance upon voluntaryism. He objected to voluntaryism for two reasons; one was that they might get one employer to fall in with their ideas and not the other, in which case unfair competition arose; and, in the second place, the management of a place might change, and with it the methods. There was no power of compulsion. There were two new trades reported upon in the Chief Inspector's report, both of extraordinary interest. One was the aniline dyeing trade and the other the trade of making shuttles of West African wood. In the aniline dyeing trade illness had been so rife that out of sixty persons employed in seven factories examined by the medical inspector twenty-eight persons, or 47 per cent., showed pale grey or blue colour of the lips; thirty-four persons, or 57 per cent., characteristic pallor, and five scars, the result of previous work in chrome or of injury to the skin, showing that the whole of these persons had suffered in one manner or another and seven of them had suffered doubly. Again, among eighty-two persons employed in the chroming, washing, drying and other processes, twenty-eight (34 per cent.) showed the game conditions of the lips, sixteen (20 per cent.) the pallor, and eleven (14 per cent.) present or past effects of chrome. He would give one illustration in the shuttle-making trade in which West African wood was used. There was a case reported of a man working in that trade who had not been previously ill; very soon after commencing work he began to run at the eyes and nose, and his breathing rapidly became so difficult that he could neither speak nor swallow. After one severe attack he

    1089
    was three weeks at home, and then three weeks at a convalescent home, after which he felt better, but the day he resumed his work he was as bad as ever. He used a respirator, and this case was a good example of the danger of placing reliance upon respirators. What was the Home Secretary going to do? In this trade manufacturers in conference recommended the use of exhaust ventilation, and he should like to know what the Home Office was going to do, because this West African wood was very dangerous indeed. He trusted he would not rely upon his powers of "peaceful persuasion." With regard to the regulation of the wall-paper trade, the Home Office appeared to be relying upon those powers. They were also relying upon peaceful persuasion in regard to the iron and steel trade for the protection of workers upon Bessemer steel, and also in regard to lithographic processes in which bronze was used. With regard to Institution laundries, the voluntary system had failed, and the Reports of the lady inspectors showed that in the cases he quoted no improvements had been achieved in regard to the fencing of machinery or the ventilation of wash-houses. Their Reports also showed a lamentable want of care in regard to children employed in such laundries. The inspectors were very emphatic in their reports as to the unreliability of the statements furnished to them by those who were in authority. They report—
    "In only a few places do we feel that we have been met with complete frankness, even where the courtesy with which we have been received has also been the most marked."… "We have no meats whatever of checking these statements, as we had no opportunity of speaking to the workers or visiting at unusual hours."…. "We were constantly assured that no accident could occur in a wash-house crowded with machinery and in which numbers of persons are employed because a man was in the room ! We feel strongly that the information received with regard to accidents was entirely unreliable, and whenever we had the means of checking it we found that it was not upheld."
    He thought the Home Secretary would see that this system of voluntary inspection had entirely broken down, and he appealed to the right hon. Gentleman - to put an end to it.
    1090
    He wished to remind the House of the enormous importance of the subject with which they were dealing. As the hon. Member for Leicester had said, that the great difficulty of dealing with this question was the enormous amount of ground one had to traverse and the difficulty of choosing any particular part of the subject. On a previous occasion the right hon. Gentleman rebuked him for urging the Home Office to do more, because he said they had a number of very important matters in hand, such as the Workmen's Compensation Bill, the Truck Acts Committee, and the Committee dealing with the police, not to speak of the preparation of a Licensing Bill for next year. He should be the last person in the world to minimise the great responsibility which attached to the right hon. Gentleman's high office. But although he had great responsibilities he had also stupendous opportunities. He had be hind him at the Home Office an able body of energetic, active, and sagacious members of the Civil Service. He had also in that House a large number of hon. Members keen and eager, almost spoiling for reform, and in these circumstances he appealed to him, and he did not think his appeal would fall upon deaf ears: he appealed to him to use in the best possible manner all those great powers which the wisdom of Parliament had entrusted to him in order to bring an increased measure of happiness, of light, and of hope, into the lives of thousands of our workers.
    MR. GILLsaid the subject he wished to bring before the attention of the House was time-cribbing. The number of hours worked in cotton mills per week was fixed at fifty-five and a-half hours. The operatives commenced work at 6 o'clock in the morning and stopped at 8 for half-an-hour for meals. They then worked on from 8.30 to 12.30, and from 1.30 to 5.30. At the end of the week the machinery was stopped at 11.30 and work ceased altogether at 12 o'clock. A large number of the workpeople were paid day wages in the texile factories which were calculated on the basis of fifty-five and a-half hours per week. The time-cribbing of which he complained was done at the stopping and the starting of the work. It was a common thing for many of the workpeople to

    1091
    go to work five or ten minutes before the proper time, and they found the engines running, and frequently at noon on Saturdays during the period which had been set aside for cleaning, they found the time encroached upon by the manufacturing process being carried on at twenty minutes or a quarter to 12, whereas it ought to cease at 11.30. He had been furnished with the returns in some instances of the amount of time which had been worked over the proper number of hours. He had in his possession a letter from one of the branch secretaries of the Employees Association which gave the figures for five different mills upon which observations had been kept for a week. In the first mill three hours thirty-five minutes were worked over the proper time, in the second mill two hours sixteen minutes, in the third three hours forty-five minutes, in the fourth three hours forty-one minutes, and in the last case two hours forty-nine minutes. In each of those cases the workpeople had not been paid one penny extra. The House would realise the extent of this practice when he stated that in Lancashire there were close upon 50,000,000 spindles. There were a considerable number of employers who did not carry out the requirements of the Act in a satisfactory way. He believed he understated the fact when he said that the owners of 30,000,000 spindles were getting their employees to work overtime in the way he had described to the extent of fully two hours per week. If this was worked out it would be found that each employer of 120 persons, taking the wages at 4d. per hour, was putting into his pocket £4 per week to which he was not entitled. This meant that £60,000 per year represented labour given by the operatives for which they were not paid. This was unfair not only to the operatives themselves, but also to the good employers. Many of the employers would scorn to take a penny which the operatives had earned, but the fact that others did as he had described meant that the good employers who observed the law were subjected to unfair competition with the bad employers in whose case the cost of production was so much cheaper. There was another aspect of the question. The President of the Local Government Board was
    1092
    anxious to find a remedy for unemployment. A reduction in the hours of labour was a remedy which was favoured by many people. In this particular case he had made a calculation which showed that, taking two hours per week on 30.000,000 spindles, if the law was kept as the good employers kept it, there would be employment found for 2,500 additional workpeople if the same amount of work was turned out. That was in connection with the spinning department; but there was also the weaving section, where things had gone on the same lines. This system had been going on for a long series of years, and it did not seem to mend. He did not blame the inspectors. There was not a sufficient number of them. They were trying to do their duty manfully, but it was utterly impossible for them to see that all employers carried out the law. The Home Office desired the law to be carried out, but the staff at its disposal was unequal to the work. He found that the last Reports of the Inspectors of Factories and Workshops were generally to the effect that the practice of time-cribbing showed no sign of diminution. The deputation which waited upon the Home Secretary suggested that the police should be called upon to assist in this matter. The Home Secretary consulted nineteen Watch Committees, and of these sixteen reported unfavourably and three favourably. They never expected any favourable replies at all. He had obtained the constitution of these Committees in twelve towns, and his information showed that of 136 members no less than ninety-three were employers, and fifty-one were engaged in the cotton trade. Two of the towns which reported favourably were Hyde and Blackburn. In Hyde there were no cotton employers on the Committee and in Blackburn there were four labour members on the Committee. That seemed to prove that in the bulk of the cases the employers were looking after their own interests. The fact that most of the Watch Committees had reported unfavourably should not, he thought, deter the Home Secretary from taking action in the matter. He held that the police should be employed to give information to the inspector, who would bring the cases before the Court. The police were

    1093
    used for administering the Shop Hours Act and they prevented time-cribbing in public houses, and why should they not be employed in doing the same thing in factories? He asked too that all the inspectors and inspectors' assistants at the Home Secretary's disposal in textile districts should be employed in combating this evil. If this were done there would be a sensible improvement in the present condition of affairs. The penalties should be increased so that it would not pay an employer to break the law. A determined attempt should be made to stop this growing evil, to see that the women and children were protected, and to prevent honest employers being handicapped in competition with dishonest employers. It was for the Home Secretary to see that the Factory Acts were administered in such a way that there would be no cause for complaint.
    *MR. JOWETTsaid he desired to acknowledge the trouble which the right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean had always taken in regard to questions affecting labour. The hon. Member for Berwickshire had referred to aniline and chrome poisoning. He would ask the Home Secretary to give special attention to this matter, not so much because of the number of fatal cases, but on account of the large number of cases where the sufferers lingered on, were rendered unhappy and uncomfortable by reason of its effects, and who still had to go on struggling in order to get their living. It seemed to him that it was not right or fair that a section of the population like the workers amongst wool should be put in the conditions in which they now had to labour. Therefore, he asked the Home Secretary to consider very carefully the representations that had been made to him, and to see whether nothing could be done to arrest the ravages of anthrax. He made no imputation against the Home Office as to the way in which the officials were performing their duties. He quite agreed that the rules which they tried to carry into effect were good, so far as they went, and perhaps effected all that they were expected to do; but he respectfully submitted that the line of action taken
    1094
    by the Home Office Department in regard to this disease of anthrax started at the wrong end. It started when the disease entered the factory, instead of preventing it entering the factory. He asked the Home Secretary, in conjunction with the President of he Local Government Board, to take action under the Public Health Act to deal with his disease. Last year there were not fewer than twenty cases of anthrax recorded in the town with which he was immediately connected, and of these ten were fatal. There were no signs of any permanent diminution in the disease in that area from the fact that there was no diminution in the quantity of infected material which the men had to handle. Most of that material was ditty, low grade wool which came from Persia and other Eastern countries. A large amount of it was worked up into what was called "oil-backing" In which cotton-seed and linseed oil was pressed to extract the oil from the seed. Most of the low-grade wools from which the mischief had arisen during the last few years was made into that kind of fabric. He asked the attention of the Secretary for Home Affairs particularly to the fact that there was one firm which had for the last fifty years made this fabric without having a single case of anthrax in their factory, although they were in competition with all the other great manufacturers in Yorkshire. Therefore, he maintained that no harm could be done to the wool and cloth industry of Yorkshire if this matter of dealing with the prevention of anthrax was undertaken seriously and effectively. He suggested that the Home Secretary should make careful inquiry as to what kinds of wool were infected, and having got that information he should not allow that wool to come into the country except under conditions in which it would be safe for the workers to deal with it. Dr. Bell, of Bradford, who was perhaps the greatest authority in this country on the disease of anthrax, had said that in nearly all cases the disease was derived in men from the handling of wool or hair from animals which had been diseased. The countries from which the wool and hair from these diseased animals came were well known

    1095
    It was all very well to issue regulations from the Home Office that the men who were handling these wools should wash their hands and so forth; but if the disease was in the material there was the potential risk of contracting the disease offered to all who handled it or inhaled the dust which came from it. The downward draft imposed by the regulations when the men were handling the wool did not remove, it only diminished, the risk of infection. He, therefore, asked the Home Secretary to get into communication with the Local Government Board with a view to action being taken under the Public Health Acts to prevent these disease-engendering wools from entering the country.
    *MR. BYLESsaid that the House of Commons might be congratulated on the fact that there were men in this Parliament who had expert knowledge derived from their own experience of the conditions of labour which they wished to see ameliorated. A large amount of the legislation passed by Parliament was not operative. That often might be the fault of the local authorities who administered these Acts of Parliament; or it might be largely due to the want of anxiety on the part of officials to insist upon the provisions of the Acts of Parliament being enforced. It should be the business of Parliament to see that the public got the full benefit of every Act of Parliament passed for public advantage and safety. In 1895 it was agreed that there was a great improvement in the administration of the Home Office when the present Chancellor of the Exchequer held the portfolio of Home Secretary. He hoped that the present occupant of the Home Office would show equal energy and give a momentum to the administration of his department. Only that day he had had an interview with a deputation who desired that the working classes should have representation on the inspectorate. That only confirmed what had been said by the hon. Member for Leicester, that great improvements might be made in regard to the work of inspection. The matter which had been referred to by the right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean in asking for an
    1096
    extension of the "Particulars" Clause to all piece-workers deserved the attention of the Home Office. In the borough which he represented he had been astonished to find the number of piece-workers —many of them ignorant and un instructed—who were unable to ascertain the proper amount which they earned. When one went to an hotel one got a bill of what was due, and he thought in the same way that the worker who went into a factory and did piece-work ought to be entitled to a note showing what work he had done and what money he was entitled to, so that he might go away satisfied that he was not underpaid, as well as the employers being satisfied that he was not overpaid. Upon the subject of "time-cribbing," he had been amazed at the figures given by the hon. Member for Bolton. If it was going on to the extent stated it must be characterised as robbery—robbery of the poor by the rich, some of whom were thus fattening on the earnings stolen from their workpeople. The suggestion had been made that the police might be employed o carry out a system of detection of these frauds upon workers. He did not see what objection there could be to a proposal of that kind [Mr. JOWETT: There is only one objection to it; it would be successful.]. Quite so, and he really did not see why such a course should not be followed. Last night they were engaged in passing a Musical Copyright Bill for the protection of another class of property under which the police had power to in erven, and when an employer deliberately and persistently robbed his workpeople he did not see why the police should not step in and protect the persons who were being robbed. He commended that idea to the Home Secretary, and he thought that until the inspectorate had been largely reinforced the police should look after the thieves. That was their business.
    *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. GLADSTONE,said the Home Office had no statutory power in the matter.
    *MR. BYLESsaid the House ought to give the Home Office statutory power. In regard to anthrax, having lived in Bradford for years he knew the prevalence of

    1097
    the disease amongst those who worked in wool and also the terrible nature of the disorder. It was a terrible disease, and if a man contracted it two days sufficed to kill him. A man went to work perfectly well and came home with a headache and in forty-eight hours he was dead, although previously he was a strong, healthy man. He had seen that happen time after time. Efforts were made thirteen years ago and orders issued in regard to certain precautions, but they had that evening heard upon the high authority of his hon. friend, who was the highest authority obtainable, that there was no improvement or reduction in the number of cases. He therefore appealed to the right hon. Gentleman to do what was necessary to prevent the spread of this terrible scourge which afflicted his own town, and pass more legislation if it was necessary. It had been argued that the wool should be excluded at the port of entry, and he might point out that, with a view to precluding the importation of disease, we already excluded foreign and even Canadian cattle. If steps of that sort were taken in regard to cattle why not in the case of wool? Another subject he wished to call attention to was the conditions under which girls worked in factories. In Salford where he had resided for many years he had been shocked at the conditions under which girls worked. There, as in many large towns, the growth and physical development of the young women suffered, and this must involve injury to the race when they become mothers. Many of these girls worked under most unhealthy and insanitary conditions. The factories and workshops were not properly inspected by the inspectors. He had promised his constituents that he would raise his voice upon this question, and he now did so. Their best hope was in the Home Office and in the earnest and vigorous administration of the factory and workshop legislation which this House had passed. He believed that the men who now formed His Majesty's Government were in full sympathy with the workers of this country, and were determined to do justice as between rich and poor; to relieve those who were helpless and cast down and those who were ill able
    1098
    to help themselves, and to give them all the advantages which Parliament had placed at their disposal. He hoped His Majesty's Government would see that the great and beneficent Acts which had been passed from time to time would not be allowed to remain inoperative, but would be allowed to fructify for the benefit of the poor.
    *MR. O'GRADYsaid he wished to call attention to the general question of factory inspection, and to remind the Home Office that those interested in labour were still clamouring for more factory inspection. At the present moment there were in London thousands of small factories and workshops in the East End that had never been seen by an inspector, and in these places men were being done to death for want of ventilation and sanitation. When a factory inspector put in an appearance the most beneficent results followed, and usually his requirements were so costly that it was found impossible to carry on a sweated industry under which men were done to death. He would like to take hon. Members to some of those premises, and he was sure that if he did so they would come back and make a considerable noise in this House over what they had seen. Then with regard to the dock labourers. Those who knew anything about shipping knew that the dock labourer was subjected to all kinds of risks every moment he was working. But most of the accidents occurred from defective gear. In regard to the dock labourers there should be special inspectors, acquainted, not only with all the rules of factory inspectorship, but having a special knowledge of the gear used in unloading vessels. As regards the cabinet makers he might point out that recently in cabinet making certain peculiar woods had come into use from the Congo and South Africa, and he asserted that 27 percent. of the deaths of the members of the Society of Cabinet Makers were due to the poisonous substances exuded from these woods and absorbed through the skin of the workers. They had even to go to the length of striking as a protest against the employment of these kinds of timber in the trade. The shuttle makers had protested in this way time after time against the same

    1099
    thing, The Wood was not essential for making shuttles and was only used because it was cheaper than the ordinary boxwood that ought to be used. The Report stated at page 382 that the remedy for this evil was the use of exhaust ventilation. It might minimise, but it would in no sense remedy it. Quite apart from the dust, the men absorbed the poison through their skin, and the only remedy was to prohibit the use of the wood. He appealed to the right hon. Gentleman to consider this matter. It was felt that many of these disasters could be minimised if not altogether remedied if the right hon. Gentleman would give broader and more definite instructions to the factory inspectors. £20,000 a year expended in additional inspectors would mean the saving of hundreds of lives and the prevention of many of the accidents that desolated the homes of the people engaged in workshops and factories. In this new Parliament was a new spirit which recognised that the most valuable thing on God's earth was the life of the workers, and its safety and well-being should have primary codsideration; he therefore hoped the right hon. Gentleman would put the effective machine which he had in his hand into operation towads that end.
    MR. BRACEsaid he almost sympathised with the right hon. Gentleman who had been asked to do so much. He rose to ask him not to do one thing which he had commenced to do. Yesterday a Committee was appointed to inquire into the economic results which would follow an eight hour day if put into operation in the mines of the country. He objected to the Committee. The Miners' Federation of Great Britain, which represented every coalfield in the country except those of Durham, and Northumberland, felt they had not been treated as they ought to have been. For twenty years they had agitated for an eight hour day from bank to bank by Act of Parliament. They had spent thousands of pounds to advance their cause, and when in this Parliament they saw a large number of Members pledged to give this reform that the miners had sought for twenty years they were given a Departmental Committee and they were expected to be satisfied. There was
    1100
    upon the records of this House all the information that Parliament needed in order to determine whether there ought to be an eight hour day or not. In face of the fact that there had been twenty years of agitation and that the majority of the Members of this House were pledged to the people it was not treating them as they had a right to expect, to create this Departmental Committee, How could it assist them? So strongly did they feel upon this point that he was authorised to say that they would be no parties to this Committee. They felt so strongly that they would carry this Vote to a division; they would not recognise the Departmental Committee, and they would not prejudice the cause of this great reform for which they had agitated for twenty years and for which they had spent thousands of pounds.
    *MR. GLADSTONEsaid he very much regretted that his hon. friend should have committed himself to a view which was so much at variance with the facts. The Departmental Committee was appointed to help the Government in legislating for the purpose of carrying out the unanimous decision which the House arrived at a few months ago on the Second Reading of the Eight Hours Bill. He wished to remind hon. Members that no Government had ever brought in a Bill dealing with a question great enough to affect the whole country, dealing with difficult relations between employers and employed, and also suggesting many points of economic doubt and difficulty, without fortifying themselves for the task with full, careful, and impartial information. His hon. friend said they would not accept this Committee; they would not give evidence. Would his hon. friend allow him to point out what a Departmental Committee really was? It was a Committee appointed by the head of a department to help him in a particular task. It was not to help the House of Commons, or to retard the House of Commons or to deal with any political movement in the country. It was appointed for a certain purpose which the head of a department might have in view in order to assist him to deal with whatever task might be put upon him. They had no authoritative, skilled, authentic, information. He could imagine himself

    1101
    bringing in a Bill and hon. Gentlemen opposite putting questions to him as to the effects of this Bill with regard to economic questions of output, foreign competition, and so forth, and all he would be able to say would be, "these are matters of mere speculation. Some way one thing and some another." If the hon. Member for South Glamorgan had sat in this House for twenty-six years, as he himself had, he would not so misconceive the nature of a Departmental Committee. He had on a previous occasion stated that he would be guided in the nature of the inquiry by the opinion of those most concerned. To begin with, this Committee was suggested to him by his hon. friend representing the mines of Durham and Northumberland. The hon. Gentleman said that Northumberland had changed its opinion on the question. That had nothing to do with this Committee, and, if he might say so, the objection of his hon. friend was very irrelevant to the purpose. They asked for the Committee, and it was clear to him that his hon. friends honestly wished to find some way of getting general assent with regard to the eight hours. It was not only in their interests, but in the interests of all concerned in the rapid and future progress of the question that this inquiry should be held, and that the Government should be armed with the information necessary to its task. He was not depending on that altogether. He had had a frank talk with his hon. friends about it and expessed the hope that they would not come to any Resolution. He explained to them that the Committee was appointed in a spirit of friendliness, and in no sense in a spirit of hostility to the eight hours question, and that it would accelerate progress and not retard it.
    MR. BRACEsaid he made his speech after consultation with his hon. friend the Member for Hanley, and he ventured to think he had fairly put his views as well as his own before the House.
    *MR. GLADSTONEsaid that in that case his hon. friend the Member for Hanley was under as great a misapprehension as his hon. friend the Member for South Glamorgan. His hon. friend had said they wanted to hurry the matter up. France, he said,
    1102
    had gone ahead of this country, and we stood where we were. He agreed that France had shown progressiveness on this question, but when his hon. friend said that France did not need an inquiry, he would ask, Was that true? What was the nature of the Bill adopted by the French Government? He was not aware that this debate was coming on, and so he did not arm himself with exact information but, speaking from recollection, in the first place it was not what was called a bank to bank Bill at all. It was an Act by which hours from nine or nine and a half came down in half hour stages to eight, but the time was not reckoned from bank to bank, and the Act only affected the hewers of coal; further, if it was found that the Act worked harshly upon a poor man or a poor mineral district, that it really did reduce employment, restrict output, or play into the hands of the foreigner, then there were powers under that Act to suspend its operation. That might be one effective method of action, but was that the method his hon. friend would throw upon this country? Was that the method which the hon. Gentleman and his friends were ready to adopt? His hon. friend had said "follow France."
    MR. BRACE: Follow France in the principle of progress.
    *MR. GLADSTONEsaid they should follow everyone in the principle of progress. He really did appeal to his hon. friend not to act hastily in this matter. He could assure him, as one who had voted on every occasion in favour of the Eight Hours Bill, that they had taken up and committed themselves to the principle. His hon. friend and his colleagues were so conscious of the difficulties he had indicated to the House that they themselves had had reluctantly to take the Bill based partly on the French system. What was the nature of the difficulties? He did not know, nor did his hon. friends know. They existed in the air. The hon. Gentleman and his friends proposed a plan, but he did not know that this plan was necessary at all. The result of a skilled and impartial Committee might be that they could have an

    1103
    Eight Hours Bill forthwith over the whole country. If that were so and his hon. friend took up the position the had indicated to the House what would then be his position? He would have done his best to impose a less perfect Bill upon the House, the country, and those he represented. He did appeal to his hon. friend to hold his hand. He was sure he had spoken under a misconception, and he begged him to, confer again with his hon. friend the Member for Hanley, and, at any rate, not to commit those for whom he acted to any action which was absolutely hostile to this inquiry. The inquiry was quite removed from the principle of eight hours. They wanted to find out exactly, as far as they could, the true economic value of the question as between one district and another and one class and another, and in the interests of the miners themselves he hoped his hon. friend would hold his hand. He passed on to the questions which had been brought to his notice this afternoon. His right hon. friend the Member for the Forest of Dean had surveyed the general question with all his great knowledge, and he confessed that on the whole he felt reassured from the character of the speech and the nature of the criticisms which the right hon. Gentleman made. He would answer one or two of his points at once. The right hon. Gentleman asked about the non-textile industries. He was paid he could not give the right hon. Gentleman the details, but he would by to ascertain them and send them to him. Certain trades, namely, brush-making, net making, indiarubber balloon making, boot and shoe manufacture, umbrella making, fustian cutting, certain branches of food manufacture, paper box making, and others were being considered and, he hoped, would be included in a comprehensive order. With regard to home work the recent sweating exhibition, for which the Daily News deserved great credit, had made a great impression on the public mind. It was of great importance that this question of sweating should be kept in full view of the public, and it ought to be pulled out continually from the holes and corners where it existed and shown in the quarters of the well-to-do and well-fed, who little knew under what conditions these people worked.
    1104
    His right hon. friend had dwelt upon the importance of the fusion of the duties of sanitary and factory inspectors That was a matter to which he would give his attention. In 1894, when they first dealt with the question of outworkers, hey found very great difficulty in bringing about any fusion of duties between the two classes of inspectors, but he would certainly consider the matter and see if anything could be done. He was sure that in this matter he could rely upon the co-operation of the President of the Local Government Board. The Member for Berwick had dealt with various important matters, including factories in which food was made, jam factories and the fish curing trade. So far as the protection of the general public was concerned that was a matter more for other authorities than the factory inspectors. Of course cleanliness bore upon that question, and he had called the attention of the Chief Inspector to the reports upon this subject, and special inquiries were being made during the busy season with a view to a special r port upon the whole subject. As to accidents arising from the use of electricity, electricity was a comparatively new power applied to industrial life, and one of the difficulties of the Home Office naturally arose from the fact that the present staff were not electricians, and a knowledge of electricity was not required in the original equipment of the present staff of inspectors. But an electrical expert had recently been appointed an inspector to pay attention to this subject. With regard to what had been said about aniline dyes, he would give the subject special consideration, and he would call the attention f the Chief Inspector to the matter. The question of the use of poisonous wood in the making of shuttles and cabinet-making had been referred to by his hon. friend the member for East Leeds, and he agreed that that was a matter which ought to be closely examined. Some safeguards had recently been adopted and the Home Office had asked or a report on the subject. He would undertake to have a special report made in regard to any woods used for industrial purpose which endangered life. The hon. Member for East Leeds aid there were thousands of workshops which Were never

    1105
    visited by an inspector, but because they were not visited in one particular year it should not be assumed that they were never visited at all. There were places inspected which were found so satisfactory that they were often written off for a time in order that other places might be visited. The Hon. Member had referred to the dangers of dock labour. He would take note of what had been said, particularly in reference to defective gear. He was proposing a special increase of the staff for this work by appointing four inspectors' assistants for London, Newcastle, Liverpool, and Glasgow, whose duty it would be to look after the safety of those employed in the docks. The hon. Member for West Bradford had made an interesting speech on the subject of anthrax. The hon. Member for Salford had also referred to the great outbreak of this deadly disease. The figures showed that in 1899 the fatalities were fifty-five; in 1900, they were thirty-seven; 1901, thirty-nine; 1902, thirty-eight; 1903, forty-seven; 1904, fifty; and 1905, fifty-nine. That progressive rise in the statistics necessitated a very close and careful inquiry, and it was obviously a matter for very grave consideration. He agreed with everything that had been said as to the unfortunate extent of this disease. It had been suggested that the imported wool which was supposed to harbour the germs of this disease should be dealt with at the port of entry. That sounded a very good suggestion if it could be carried out. It was, however, somewhat difficult, because the wool was imported in large quantities, made up in bales, and to have it unpacked on landing would mean the placing of a very heavy tax on the trade. If no other way of dealing with the matter could be found, and if this way could be made effectual, he granted that it ought to be done. The question at the present moment was whether it would be possible. It was a complicated question, and there were great difficulties when they came to differentiate in matters of this kind in connection with imports. The question was whether the material could be subjected to any process which would really effect a cure for the evil. The difficulty was to find something which would sterilise those spores without injuring the material. That was the problem,

    1106
    and it had been engaging the serious attention of the Home Office for some time past. A Committee had been appointed in Bradford, with a Government subsidy, for the special purpose of experimenting in regard to the disease He was informed by a friend of his of much experience in the Bradford trade that there were real hopes of a remedy being found by means of some process involving the submersion of the wool, or whatever the material might be, in a vessel containing chemical ingredients. He would not say more about that at the present time. There was no use of being over-sanguine about remedies, but in this matter he had good reason for believing that there might be something done at no distant date.
    MR. JOWETTsaid his suggestion was that wools which were actually dangerous might be excluded, though he did believe that steam pressure at 230 degrees Fahrenheit would prevent the danger.
    *MR. GLADSTONEsaid that if the wool, or whatever the material might be which contained these spores in dangerous quantity did not yield to treatment, the only remedy would be to exclude the wool altogether. No doubt that could be done, but though they might get rid of the worst part of the evil by excluding wool which came from certain parts of the world the anthrax evil would always be with them, as wool was necessary in our textile industries. He would do everything in his power to further the investigation which was now going on. Information and instruction on the subject would be issued by his Department to those engaged in the industries concerned, so that when the disease was found to exist prompt action might be taken, in which case probably no harm would arise. On the subject of laundry inspection he had expressed his views over and over again. It was one of the questions with which they would be obliged to deal, and he would only say that he hoped to bring in a Bill next year. With regard to time-cribbing, he was perfectly ready to cooperate with his hon. friends or anyone in order to put down this evil. The time had come when employers should be formally warned that this infringement

    1107
    of the law for their personal gain was wrong, and that they had better put their house in order lest some drastic reforms might be found to be necessary. He hoped employers would be wise in time. It was fair, however, to say that some responsibility attached to the workpeople who gained [An HON. MEMBER: No], or thought they gained by the working of overtime, and he claimed their cooperation in putting a stop to a practice which was thoroughly bad. He had omitted to deal with one question of his right hon. friend the Member for the Forest of Dean. As soon as they got clear of the Workmen's Compensation Bill the subject of insurance should be taken up, and the Government would consider the best form of inquiry into the whole matter. Turning to the question of factory inspection, he said that with the manifold duties of his Department it had been wholly out of their power this session to devote themselves entirely to any one line of inquiry and investigation. He doubted whether the Home Office had ever been more severely pressed. In addition to the Workmen's Compensation Bill, the Department had been responsible for no less than ten small Bills. There had been heavy work on the criminal side, which had put a heavy strain upon the Department; they had had to deal with special difficulties in the administration of the London police, of the Aliens Act, of the Licensing Act of 1904, and of the Employment of Children Act and the bye-laws made under it. Then they had had heavy work in connection with lunacy and vagrancy; vaccination had been hurled at his head almost every Parliamentary day; and there was also vivisection, on which he had been tormented perhaps more in private than in public. They had had to deal with the question of criminal appeal and the big question of London traffic; and further, they had had to consider arrangements for the International Conference at Berne, at which this country for the first time would be officially represented. The hon. Member for Leicester had brought a somewhat menacing charge against the administration of the Factory Department. What he maintained was that the efficiency of the Factory Department of the Home Office had increased, was
    1108
    increasing, and would increase. He did not claim that it was perfect or that it had not its weak spots. All that he claimed was that as a Department it contained a large number of extremely competent and self-sacrificing men who were keen in the public interest to do their duty. He wished, in passing, to pay a tribute to the work of Sir Hamilton P. Freer-Smith, to whom on his retirement a word of public acknowledgment was due for his great and meritorious services in connection with the work of the Factory Department. He admitted that the Department might be open to attack in regard to the number of miles travelled by the officers when engaged in inspection duties. Comparing the number of miles travelled last year with the number of miles travelled in 1895, which he believed amounted to 94,400 miles as against 32,700 miles, he found that there had been an increase out of all proportion to the number of additional factory inspectors appointed. Obviously, when a man was travelling he could not be inspecting, and it would be his endeavour to see whether the high figure of miles travelled could not be reduced by a better system of organisation so as to concentrate the staff more directly on the factories and workshops under their charge. As to the attack made on the new examination syllabus, there was nothing sinister behind the scheme. The idea underlying the system introduced by the right hon. Gentleman opposite during his last year of office was to have an examination on a fairly wide range of subjects of general knowledge, and then, after a probationary period of two years, a qualifying examination in the special subjects of Factory Law and Sanitary Science, which were really better learnt during a period of actual work in the Factory Department than they could be from books alone. The object was to throw open the door as widely as possible to the best candidates from all quarters. As the syllabus stood, however, it was possible for a candidate to qualify by simply confining himself to history, French, German, or Italian. But the idea was not to stop there. There was the period of probation to consider, and after that there was the qualifying examination, so that the

    1109
    inspector would have time and opportunity to acquire the technical and practical knowledge necessary for the discharge of his duty and to show his aptitude for that work, such as appearing in Court and conducting a case, as well as in the practical and technical work he had to undertake. He did not object to the hon. Gentleman's criticisms as to examinations, but he did to the suggestion that there was undue predominance given to what was called social influence.
    MR. J. RAMSAY MACDONALDsaid he did not know he had gone so far as th t.
    *MR. GLADSTONEsaid he wanted to get quite clear from his hon. friend what he really meant. He was therefore glad to hear that the hon. Gentleman had made no such charge. As to inspectors' assistants, he admitted that the system was open to his hon. friend's criticisms, and he had prepared a scheme which would go before the Treasury. At present the average age of these assistants was about thirty-eight, and a large number of them had arrived at the maximum salary of £150. They had therefore in prospect 27 years of public service without any advance in pay or in duty. He agreed that assistant inspectors had but a shadowy chance of getting into the inspectorate. But both as to their status and as to their duties he hoped to make a change which he trusted would be viewed by hon. Gentlemen as satisfactory. In many parts of the country and especially in Lancashire, workshops were being turned into factories owing to the application of electrical power. There were nearly 600 new factories in Lancashire alone, and under these circumstances the anomaly of the assistant inspectors' position could not be maintained. The system must be overhauled and expanded, and he hoped that more responsible duties would be given to the assistant inspectors under the new classification which would be set up, but he could not say more at present. He wished to say a word about the nominations of the full inspectors. The question was not quite so easy a one as it appeared at first sight. The only alternative to the present system of selection and nomination before examin-
    1110
    ation was to accept all applications and cause the Civil Service Commissioners to hold an open competitive examination for the whole mass of candidates. There were hundreds of Candidates, some well qualified to show up in an examination, but who were not necessarily fitted to make the best inspectors. That was the alternative to the present system. What happened under the system which had hitherto prevailed? The practice which had grown up in the department was at the least based on the honest wish to get the best men available, and it included personal interviews with the candidates, a very necessary precaution, in order to see whether certain personal qualities were possessed by them which one could only judge of by conversation with the men themselves. He did not make any charge against that practice or throw any blame upon anyone, but it seemed to him that they wanted something more. He had therefore set on foot a small Committee, with the Under-Secretary as chairman, to go through the papers of those who applied for the position of inspector, inspector's assistant, or lady inspector, and that Committee reported to him on the whole case and, having been so assisted, his final selection for nomination was made. Recently they gave twenty-one nominations for seven places, and he would request the House to listen to the qualifications of those who were nominated. Here was the fifth of the successful candidates, a Cambridge man who took honours in the history school and was placed in this competition in consequence of his general knowledge on the subject. Here was another of the successful men, who was trained at the Manchester Technical School, was a Whitworth scholar, had been apprenticed to an engineering firm, had been employed for some five years by a Birmingham firm of mechanical engineers, was with Armstrong, Whitworth & Co. engaged in special work from 1897 to 1899, when he became foreman fitter. He was the manager of another firm in 1901. That he thought was a pretty good qualification for the post of factory inspector. Here was another, who gained an open studentship at Liverpool University, was a Bachelor of Science

    1111
    of the first class of the Liverpool University, and had passed an examination in electrical engineering. From 1898 to 1901 he was pupil teacher at a grammar school. In 1904 he was science master at another school, and although he did not know what he would turn out to he in after life, it did not seem necessary for his hon. friend to use his imagination in conjuring up in the case of such a man the defects of those who might come under this scheme of nomination. Another was educated at Bromley Board School and made himself. He had obtained a scholarship at University College, had obtained exhibitions and a County Council scholarship at the South London Technical College. He had matriculated at the London University, and had passed the intermediate examination. A man who had raised himself like that and was qualifying himself still further was surely a man who was suitable to be a factory inspector. Another was educated at the Manchester School of Technology, and had obtained various scholarships and held various certificates from the Board of Education in regard to his attainments on various technical subjects, including steam, heat, light, and sound. He held many qualifications, and that was the sort of man that his hon. friend wished to exclude from the inspectorate. He would have romped in in any examination, and was equipped in every point, the alleged absence of which formed the staple criticism of his hon. friend. Another again won an exhibition at the Royal College of science, London, a Whitworth Scholarship, and was at present taking an advanced course in electrical science at the Technical College, South Kensington. The remaining one of the seven successful candidates held a certificate as a sanitary inspector and a first class certificate in hygiene. He was employed by a firm of sanitary engineers from 1894 to 1901, employed by similar firms in 1902, in which year he was appointed sanitary inspector for the Hampstead Borough Council. It seemed to him that these were the right class of men to nominate and the very men that were wanted. He could not agree that an amalgamation of the inspectors and assistant inspectors would be desirable. The demands on the inspectors were such
    1112
    as to require men to devote themselves for years to preparing for the satisfactory discharge of the duties of inspection. Whatever was done, however, the factory inspectors' assistants ought to have the opportunity of advancement. Possibly places among the inspectorate should be reserved for them, and they ought to rise in grades to positions for which their powers and capacities fitted them. The hon. Member for Leicester had made out no case which would justify an open public inquiry, but he would promise to give careful consideration to the question of the organisation of the factory department. If he had thought that public confidence in that department had been shaken or that anything was to be gained from a departmental inquiry he would be the first to seek it. But he did not think there were any dark places in the Home Office. There should not be so long as he had anything to do with it, and there was no subject connected with the Home Office which interested him more than that side of it which dealt with factories and workshops. With regard to recent appointments of inspectors, he had nominated three lady inspectors, and the total number, if those three passed the examination, would be fifteen. They had also appointed four additional factory inspectors' assistants and four junior assistants. As to the reorganisation of the inspectors' assistants department, his wish and hope was not only to improve the condition of the assistants financially, but to add to the duties in amount and in importance.
    MR. T. RICHARDSsaid that after there had been so much criticism of the Home Secretary he thought it was only right that he should give his tribute of praise and commendation to the right hon. Gentleman for the promptness with which on his taking over the duties of his office he had considered the interests of the mining population. Labour Members had for years been urging upon the late Government the necessity of doing something by way of research and investigation into the means of preventing a great number of the accidents which occurred in mines. The mining population generally of the country were much gratified at

    1113
    the appointment of the Commission, at its composition, and at the terms of its reference. There was only one point in connection with the terms of reference to which he wished to call attention. He was not quite sure that the reference permitted the Commission to inquire into the efficiency or adequacy of the mining inspectors. The present system of mine inspection was totally inadequate. In one case he could cite there was only one chief inspector with two assistants to supervise 100,000 workmen. Inspection under such conditions was of course a sham. The last coal mine disaster in South Wales in which a number of men lost their lives was in consequence of the inundation of water. It was said that the manager omitted to take the proper precautions. But, as a matter of fact, a short time before the water broke in, the mine inspector had himself been to examine the colliery and its plans, and if the precautions had not been taken he ought to have known. They congratulated the right hon. Gentleman on appointing the Commission. The chief thing he desired to say was that he was himself surprised that the right hon. Gentleman should have expressed surprise at the passionate speech of the hon. Member for South Glamorganshire in regard to the Departmental Committee appointed to consider the eight hours day, having regard to the history of the question, and to the fact that the Prime Minister and nearly every Member of the House had repeatedly voted in favour of an eight hours day. Nearly every Liberal had repeatedly given pledges at their election in favour of an eight hours day for miners. The miners of Wales had a stronger case than those in other parts of the country, because the Welsh Party as a whole, notwithstanding any difference there might be between them on other matters, were unanimous upon this subject. Had he spoken before his hon. friend he would have been quite as passionate as he on the question of the appointment of this Committee. His hon. friend at all events was to be congratulated in having drawn an equally passionate speech from the right hon. Gentleman. It was absolutely ludicrous to say that the reduction of the hours of a few thousand boys from ten to eight was going to upset the
    1114
    conditions of this country. He did not wish to labour this point, and after the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, as far as he was personally concerned, he did not wish to force the House to a division on the question. He hoped the Committee referred to would get to work, and; he trusted that next session the Government would be able to take up an Eight Hours Bill for miners.
    MR. FENWICKsaid he was glad that his hon. friends opposite did not intend to take up the extreme attitude suggested by the hon. Member for South Glamorgan. Throughout this controversy for over twenty years the Northumberland and Durham representatives had been quite as anxious as anyone else to see a satisfactory solution of the eight hours question. The reason why they suggested that an inquiry should be instituted was in order that the Committee might have an opportunity of guiding them along right and proper lines. Some of the promoters of this measure had declared that they had a perfect solution of the question which would not impose any additional injury upon the districts of Durham and Northumberland. As far as he was concerned he had been calling for that solution for the last twenty years, and it had never yet been forthcoming. With regard to the ballot upon this question which had been mentioned, 18,000 out of 22,000 voting papers were returned, and yet that only gave a majority of 465 in favour of the proposal. What he would like to see was a similar vote taken throughout the whole of the Federation area. There was scarcely a case where a ballot had been taken in the Federation area in the same way as it had been taken in the county of Northumberland.
    *SIR CHARLES DILKEasked leave to withdraw his Motion for reduction.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the, Committee in the said Resolution."
    *MR. STUARTsaid he desired to refer to the question of the

    1115
    qualification of factory inspectors. He had listened with much interest to the series of qualifications of the seven successful candidates who had been nominated, but it was rather remarkable that there was only one of those inspectors who had had direct personal acquaintance with practical work in any factory. They required on the inspectorate men who had a great amount of such experience, which could only be gained by those who had themselves worked in the actual processes in the factories. No doubt the men appointed would develop excellent qualities and most of them had had an excellent training, but the one element that was wanting was their actual experience of practical daily life and work in the factory, and he thought that that element could be easily introduced without any diminution of value and character of the inspectors. The object was of course the safety and the security of the workers, and personally he believed there was no one so capable of finding out what was dangerous to workpeople as the man who had been through the mill himself. He hoped that in future a certain amount of extra consideration would be given to those candidates who had had actual practical experience, and if this suggestion was adopted it would tend not only to the benefit of the workmen, but also to the benefit of employers, who liked nothing worse than interference in their businesses by persons who did not understand the thing practically.
    MR. PICKERSGILLasked what had been done to strengthen the staff of the Home Office on its criminal side.
    *MR. GLADSTONEsaid it had been strengthened by the appointment of an additional assistant Under-Secretary.
    MR. SHACKLETONsaid that vigorous measures should be taken to put down time-cribbing in textile factories, which was not only injurious to the workers, but competitively unfair to honest manufacturers. More summonses should be issued and heavier fines imposed. He cordially
    1116
    agreed with the action of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Forest of Dean in withdrawing this Amendment. The answer they had received from the Home Secretary was fairly satisfactory and gave them encouragement to hope that before another year came round the right hon. Gentleman would have achieved something in the direction which he honestly desired to go. With regard to the use of dangerous wood, some of his constituents were anxious to know whether there was any bad effect upon the weavers who had to use the shuttles made from that particular kind of wood. The weavers frequently had to put these shuttles to their mouth and suck them in order to get the thread to go through. He did not know whether there was any danger attending that, and perhaps the Home Secretary would include that in the promised inquiry. With regard to time-cribbing he thought the right hon. Gentleman was mixing up two questions, time-cribbing and meal hour work. They had encouraged the people not to persist in meal-hour work, but in regard to time-cribbing the operatives had no choice, because if the engines were running they were bound to be there. They could not leave until the engines were stopped, because they would have to run the risk of having a sudden stopping of machinery which might result in a breakdown in the mill. He believed the right hon. Gentleman had two remedies which he might apply. In the first place there was the question of the police, which required legislation, but he believed that so far as administration was concerned the Home Office had power to take more cases. There was very little danger of getting wrong in regard to the evidence if they found the mill running and persons under eighteen years of age were working them, because that was illegal. If the police went into a weaving shed and found 600 persons working, an action in every one of those cases could be taken against the employer. An inspector recently took proceedings in thirty-nine cases against an habitual offender, and he was fined nearly £30. Those men who competed so unfairly with other employers ought to be made to pay very heavily. After all, it was merely a question of money, and a fine of 5s. and costs was a mere bagatelle

    1117
    to the employers. If the Home Office meant to put the practice down they must issue a summons in every case, and the only way to deal effectively with it was to make the fines amount to a few hundreds of pounds. Let the Home Office issue instructions to the inspectors to take up more cases. With regard to the qualifications for inspectors he was not in a position to judge whether the various questions put before the candidates were necessary or not from an educational point of view, but he had no hesitation in saying that they were not required from a practical point of view.
    *DR. COOPERurged that the number of paid Lunacy Commissioners should be increased. They were required by the Lunacy Act to see every lunatic detained in an asylum at least once a year. The Board as at present constituted was unable properly to discharge its duties. There were six Commissioners, three barristers and three doctors. On the work of inspecting lunatic asylums they went in pairs, a legal member always accompanying a medical member. If all the lunatics in the asylums were examined each pair of Commissioners would have to examine 39,943 in the year. It was physically impossible that they could do so and determine whether anyone was wrongly detained in an asylum. He had been associated with the administration of the Asylums Committee of the London County Council, and he found that instead of the Lunacy Commissioners taking three days to visit an asylum containing 2,000 inmates, it was a very rare thing to find that they took longer than two days, and he had known them visit the whole of the people in a large asylum in one day. He did not think anyone could say that that was efficient inspection. As a rule these Commissioners took round with them the Medical Superintendent of the Asylum, who explained the cases. He did not think this method was contemplated when the Commissioners were first appointed, and it was intended the Commissioners should be absolutely free to go round the asylum without the superintendent. He thought this was necessary for the safety of the people who ought to have the privilege
    1118
    once a year of being seen by an independent person who was not interested in their detention. He believed that the legal Commissioner was a valuable man in the Committee room, but he could not conceive of what use he was in going round an asylum. An important point to which he wished to call attention was the practice of the Commissioners in regard to the examination and passing of plans for new asylums and for alterations on existing buildings.
    And, it being a quarter past Eight of the clock, and there being Private Business set down by direction of the Chairman of Ways and Means under Standing Order No. 8, further Proceeding was postponed without Question put.

    LANCASHIRE ELECTRIC POWER BILL (BY ORDER).
    Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.

    SUPPLY [31ST JULY] REPORT.
    Postponed Proceeding on Consideration of Third Resolution resumed.
    Question again proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
    *DR.COOPER,resuming his speech, said the Commissioners had placed upon them the duty of inspecting the plans for new asylums and for alterations of existing buildings. In connection with that work they had an architectural adviser. He had not the slightest personal knowledge of that gentleman, and it was the system which had grown up in connection with plans to which he objected. The architectural adviser of the Commissioners was a gentleman whose own professional work was very largely, almost exclusively, confined to the erection of asylums. The general complaint had been that unless the asylums committees of county councils engaged either the architectural adviser of the Commissioners, or an architect whose name appeared on a small list kept by them, great delay took place in the passing of the plans, and that the plans were unduly criticised. Not only

    1119
    was that the case, but if an asylums committee engaged the architect who was adviser to the Commissioners, or an architect whose name appeared on the Commissioners' list, he invariably tried to select the contractor. County councils all over England complained that they were in this way deprived of competition in obtaining both architects and contractors. In support of this statement he read an extract from speeches delivered at the annual meeting of the County Councils Association in May last year. This was a very serious matter, and he thought the Home Secretary should consider whether the time had not arrived when the architectural adviser of the Commissioners should be an architect who would devote his whole time to the duties of the office. His own experience as a Member of the Special Committee of the London County Council appointed to prepare plans for its new asylums brought him into close connection with the Lunacy Commissioners, and he could testify that a great deal of what he regarded as unnecessary delay was caused through plans being sent back time after time with inquiries and suggestions as to trifling details. The County Council had just finished the asylum at Epsom, when the Commissioners all of a sudden said that if they did not at once build another asylum, the replica of an asylum recently built by the Commissioners' architect, the Council would be reported for default to the Home Secretary. They had a rather weak-kneed chairman at the time, and unfortunately he gave way to the demands of the Commissioners, and this put several thousand pounds into the pocket of the architectural adviser of the Commissioners. He had known the Commissioners' architect have three or four asylums on his hands at the same time. He complained of the growing tendency to send aged people into asylums. The figures in regard to this were extremely startling. In 1903–4 there were 1,445 people over seventy years of age sent into asylums as lunatics, though suffering from senile degeneration and nothing more. There were 18 per cent. of the men and 24 per cent. of the women over eighty. He thought this was one of the things confined to the poor. The whole of these people ought
    1120
    to have been kept in workhouses. There was one woman on the verge of 100 years of age included in the number to which he had referred, and it was a scandal that she should have been sent to die in an asylum. There ought to be some inquiry into the increase of lunacy, and also into the way in which old people were treated. He was dining recently with an eminent lunacy expert who, in an after-dinner speech, said that if rich men were treated in exactly the same way as many of the poor people a third of the Members of another House would die in lunatic asylums. The percentage of discharges of recoveries was entirely in favour of the wealthy. It was, therefore, his desire to press upon the Home Secretary the appointment of a Commission to investigate into the condition of things. During the last fifty years great advances had been made in the science of medicine and of surgery which had been to the great advantage of mankind; but no improvement had been made in the treatment of lunacy; and until an inquiry into the present treatment of lunatics and the whole conditions under which these poor people were maintained at the cost of £3,000,000 per annum had been instituted there would be no improvement in the treatment of lunacy. He admitted that under the Asylums Committees of the County Councils matters had been much improved; the treatment was better, and the attendants were of a better type. But still, the percentage of cures had gone down, and the knowledge of the essential nature of insanity and its causes or its prevention was no better to-day than it was a hundred years ago. Until a more scientific investigation was made into the cause of brain disease there would be no better means of cure forthcoming. The London County Council had asked for Parliamentary powers to establish receiving houses from which they removed patients after observation to the asylums and Parliament had rejected their Bill. He invited the Home Secretary to place England more on the level with the Scottish system of Lunacy Commissioners which was infinitely better than that in this country. Another thing which he desired was that provision should be made for a visiting staff from.

    1121
    the outside. Wherever that had been recognised it had been found to be of the greatest value; and, as a matter of fact, the principle of a visiting staff from the outside had received the support of the Local Government Board, of the Lunacy Commission, and even of the late Lord Chancellor—which was something extraordinary ! When the New York Board of Lunacy heard of the scheme for receiving houses they had sent over to this country a Commission to make inquiry as to the methods suggested here, and they were so impressed with the scheme of the London County Council that they had adopted it in New York with great success. Glasgow also sent their medical officer, who has adopted it there successfully. While London after spending years to develop a scheme which met with the approval of the most eminent members of the medical profession was yet without its municipal mental hospital. What he pressed for was inquiry by a Commission or Committee—an inquiry which had not been made for fifty years. The lunatic asylums statistics were valueless in many respects, because they were not uniform. Every asylum sent in its figures in a different shape and form; and it was impossible to arrive at a consideration of the reasons for the very serious increase of lunatics in the country.
    *MR. REMNANTsaid that the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had been very unfair to the Home Secretary when he accused him of wanting interest in the matter which he was discussing. He did not think that anyone who had listened to the excellent speech of the Home Secretary could accuse him of any lack of interest in any of the subjects which had been touched upon. There was, however, one point which had been omitted by the right hon. Gentleman in his review. It was a matter in regard to which every Member in the House would, he believed, be in agreement with him, and that was the desirability of giving the members of the Metropolitan Police Force one day's rest in seven, instead of only one in a fort-night. Several questions had been asked upon the point, and the right hon. Gentleman had given sympathetic answers. Sympathy was all very well, but unless
    1122
    it was followed up by action it was not of much value in this case. What was the present position of affairs in regard to the Metropolitan Police Force? New demands were made upon them every day, but these had been accompanied by no increase in pay. It was true that some house allowance had been made, but it was very partial in its application. For instance, one policeman living on one side of the street, might get a house allowance while another policeman living on the other side of the street did not get it. It had been said that the concession of one day's rest in seven would involve a cost of £150,000, equal to the extra employment of 2,000 members of the force; but, in the opinion of competent advisers whom he had consulted one quarter of that number would meet the demand. Nobody in the House would deny that the members of the Metropolitan Police Force were deserving of every consideration. They were a body of men with difficult duties to discharge, which they performed with great ability and with every consideration for those with whom they were brought in contact. He did not believe that the cost of granting one day's rest in seven to the force would be anything like £150,000; he thought that £50,000 would more than cover the additional expense incurred, and no one would grudge that expenditure owing to the benefits that would be conferred on the force. If the right hon. Gentleman was uncertain about the cost he asked him to appoint a Committee which would investigate the matter thoroughly, and find out what the exact amount would be. If the right hon. Gentleman took this step it would be one which he was sure he would never regret.
    *MR. REESsaid that the electors in the district which he represented were very much interested in the question of the appointment of factory inspectors, because many of them had houses in the Montgomery boroughs, and worked in South Wales, and he urged the absolute necessity of the appointment of such factory inspectors in Welsh mines as possessed a thorough knowledge of the Welsh language. There was a solidarity

    1123

    of sentiment on this subject between South, North and Central Wales. His constituents, though they seldom approached the Home Secretary, were all worthy of his attention, and he was very sure he was representing their opinion when he said that every Government Inspector in Wales should speak the Welsh language. Indeed, his constituents made it a condition of his own election that he should learn it himself, and he was doing his best to carry out their wishes. He hoped that when the right hon. Gentleman replied to the speech of the hon. Member for Bermondsey, he would realise that some notice should be taken of the great expense of maintaining lunatics, as he thought that the pockets of the ratepayers ought to he considered quite as much as the comfort of the lunatics, though the latter subject only had been brought under his notice. In the county of Montgomeryshire, which was conspicuously well administered, he was aware that the heavy charges under this head gave the county council no little occasion for thought, though it was anxious that everything in reason should be done to alleviate the lot of the unfortunate.
    MR. T. F. RICHARDSsaid the failure of the factory inspector was often due to the fact that he had not been a practical man. In the boot and shoe industry, in which he was engaged, he had known instances in which large deductions were made from the wages of those employed owing to the fact that the factory inspector was not acquainted with the life of those employed in the district, and especially he did not know anything about the lives of the outworkers. He ought to visit the outworker and see the conditions of his employment. He was glad that some improvement was being made in this respect, but it seemed rather a peculiar thing so far as he was concerned that some gentleman who had held the position of the manager of a particular kind of works should take a berth at £150 a year to inspect factories. It reminded him of the time when they were inspected by Army officers. Men who received less than they considered they were entitled to did not take that interest in their work that
    1124
    the workers ought to do, and it was important that the workers should be protected against these exactions. In regard to those who worked in the forge, the mill and the mine, he did not think that sufficient attention was given by the inspectors to the dangerous side of their work, and therefore the men did not get the protection which the law provided. He thought upon all these grounds that an inspector should have some experience as a worker. He should like to add a word with respect to female inspectors. He noticed that we had nine for the whole of the country.
    *MR. GLADSTONE: It will be fifteen this year.
    MR. T. F. RICHARDSsaid no doubt that was a better condition of things than had prevailed hitherto, but he still thought that the number was insufficient. Fifteen lady inspectors could not perform the work and cover the whole country. He came from the town of Leicester, in which he had spent his whole life, and they had only one female inspector for 220,000 people. Very insanitary conditions prevailed in the factories, and he was satisfied that in that town alone they could find work for half-a-dozen lady inspectors.
    MR. GLADSTONEsaid he echoed what the last speaker had said and agreed that the number of lady inspectors was very small indeed. He also appreciated the friendly criticism of his hon. friend who had insisted upon the fact that inspectors should be able to speak the Welsh language. He was aware that it was desirable that they should do so, and he spoke from an experience both of North and Central Wales. As a matter of fact the Home Office had paid and was paying special attention to the qualifications of factory inspectors for the work which they had to do. Extraordinary chaos now prevailed in regard to the responsibility for the management and control of lunatic asylums. In regard to them he had a mere shred of responsibility. He passed the plans and sanctioned the estimates. The county councils built the asylums, the Local Government Board sanctioned the loans, and the Lord

    1125
    Chancellor appointed the Lunacy Commissioners. At one time the Home Secretary appointed the Commissioners, but some seventy or eighty years ago a change was made and a Bill was brought into the House of Commons and sent up to another place and became law under which the Home Secretary was deprived of the charge of the Lunacy Commissioners and the Lord Chancellor was substituted for the Home Office. Consequently the responsible functions of the Home Secretary were taken away and vested in the Lord Chancellor, and he had been left with this shred of authority. He was not in the least satisfied with the position. He was not responsible for the management of the asylums and all he had to do was to pass plans which had been pretty well settled before they came up to him. He was all in favour of an examination into the whole system of inspection and the organisation of inspection. Under the present system they had six paid Commissioners, three legal and three lay, and they had to go all over the country in pairs inspecting the lunatic asylums. It seemed to him that that system was both antiquated and absurd. The Government appointed half a dozen highly qualified gentlemen at high salaries and then they said that they were to go over the country in pairs and inspect lunatic asylums. What was the result? The result was that there was a totally in-sufficient inspection and the Department had not got the handy man who was ready at their beck and call to go and inspect a particular asylum when inspection was necessary. Instead of a system of that sort they had to arrange that two of these stately Commissioners should go down and inspect. No doubt the system was instituted when the demands on the attention of the Commissioners were not what they were now, and the knowledge on the subject was not what it was now. It seemed to him that they ought to have a qualified staff of inspectors who could be told off to do their duty at any time that was required. The Commission on the Feeble-minded was on the point of reporting, and its Report would deal largely with lunatic asylums. When that Report had been received the Government would consider what action was desirable. He had already been in communication with the
    1126
    Lord Chancellor on the subject. As to the cost of giving the police one day's rest in seven, he had no reason to believe that the estimate of £150,000 was inaccurate, but he would go into the matter further. He was entirely in sympathy with the proposal, but he might point out that it involved expenditure and would lead to a corresponding increase of expenditure throughout all the provincial areas. Comparing Scotland, he found that they got one Sunday off in three in Glasgow and Edinburgh. he believed there were differences in practice among the Scottish County forces, but that usually on Sunday they gave the police time off in order to attend divine service and in some cases they made it compulsory for the men to attend. If the ball was started rolling in London it would have to run all over the country, and that meant a very serious question. He had drawn the attention of the police authorities to this matter. There was a strong desire on the part of the House that progress should be made towards realising what was in the minds of hon. Members with regard to this question.
    MR. T. L. CORBETTsaid he would like to refer to the sympathetic terms in which the right hon. Gentleman referred to the question of inspection of women workers. The returns made during the last Parliament showed that no fewer than 144,000 women and girls were left entirely outside the protection of the Factory Acts, while 88,000 only were protected by the Acts. That in itself ought to be a sufficient appeal even to anybody less sympathetic than the right, hon. Gentleman, and should make them realise that the present situation was extremely unsatisfactory. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would be able to promise some legislation during the coming autumn in order to bring in these 144,000 women and children who were working outside the protection of the Factory Acts.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Subsequent Resolutions agreed to
    Postponed Resolutions agreed to.

  SUPPLY [5TH JULY] REPORT.
  Resolution reported.
  SUPPLY [5TH JULY] REPORT.
    CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1906–7.

      CLASS II.
      "That a sum, not exceeding £40,396, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1907, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of His Majesty's Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs."
      MR. GOOCHreferred to the question of Macedonia, and said he thought all agreed that this was the most troublesome and perhaps the most difficult question confronting this country at the present time. He hoped very much that the Government and the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs would not give the consent of England, which was the country principally interested, to the Customs increase unless they got in return conditions very much more far-reaching and satisfactory than anything they had up to the present obtained. To allow the Sultan to claim an extra half million a year without some such conditions as those laid down by Lord Lansdowne last year would only enable him to maintain his already swollen Army and perpetuate a state of things of which we all complained. He wished also to know from the Foreign Secretary whether he had received any reply from the Sultan with reference to the demands put forward by all the Powers in connection with the increased powers of the gendarmerie. Those demands were so reasonable and so moderate that it was exceedingly weak and undignified on the part of the great Powers to allow month after month to pass—the demands were made in April—without receiving a reply. He hoped, therefore, the Foreign Secretary would ask once again and in a more determined manner than hitherto. He should like to know also whether the report of the English representative on the Financial Commission had been received or was likely to arrive in the immediate future. From the accounts of several correspondents it appeared that the condition
      1128
      of affairs in regard to the Financial Board was exceedingly unsatisfactory. The scheme had the making of an excellent scheme as put forward last autumn, but it was very much whittled down before being accepted by the Sultan, and since then he was afraid the amount of work which the Commission had been able to do had been very small. Would the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs ascertain whether it was making any real progress? If it were not, would he take whatever steps were necessary to give that Commission more power and to bring it more into conformity with the plan originally designed when Lord Lansdowne made the suggestion last year? There were two main reasons for imploring the Foreign Secretary to take a more active line in connection with this question. The first was the internal condition of Macedonia. He understood that there were something like 200 murders a month. Neither the gendarmerie, nor the Commission, nor the civil assessors have been able to render life and property safe. The second reason was the international situation. Lord Lansdowne said in the House of Lords a few weeks ago that Macedonia was a constant menace to the peace of Europe, and since then additional proof of that statement had been received. War had almost been brought about between Greece and Roumania. So long as the Bulgarians in Macedonia were at the mercy of raiding Greek bands or Turkish irregulars so long would there exist a feeling of tension between Turkey and Bulgaria which might involve other countries in Europe. He hoped he would get a satisfactory reply from his right hon. friend in regard to these matters.
      MR. LYNCHsaid that it had been decided to take this Vote because of the recognised importance of foreign affairs. But if foreign affairs had the importance with which he knew his right hon. friend invested them, and with which many hon. Members would be inclined to agree in investing them, then surely they ought not to be brought up for debate in forty minutes between lunacy and 10 o'clock, with the object of allowing Members like himself to air their views. The question he wished to raise to-night was that of the

      1129
      3 per cent. increase in the Customs duty on British goods entering Turkey, an increase which was not leviable without our consent. In itself that might not appear to be very important, but, as he hoped to show this evening, it brought with it most important commercial and also political results. They on the Ministerial side were a Party committed to the principles of Free Trade, and, that being the case, he submitted that they should do their very best to develop those great neutral markets in which hitherto, if there were any Customs duties, they were only for revenue purposes. The great markets of China, Manchuria, Persia, and Turkey were the markets which a Free Trade country like ours should above all things endeavour to cultivate and to develop. This question of the 3 per cent. increase vitally affected one of these great neutral markets. The question had been already debated in another place, the discussion having been remarkable for a speech by Lord Lansdowne in which two things became clear; first, that the policy of the late Government in the matter was the policy of the British Ambassador in Constantinople, and secondly, that the late Secretary of State strongly counselled his successor, the right hon. Gentleman, to stiffen his conditions considerably before reopening negotiations with the Porte. His right hon. friend was well aware of his views and those of his friends, as well as of the Balkan Committee and the great chambers of commerce of this country. His right hon. friend had received strong protests from these bodies against the proposed increase. In view of all these remonstrances he would personally have been content to leave the matter to the judgment of his right hon. friend. But his right hon. friend was, after all, not merely an autocrat. He was the only representative organ of a powerful bureaucracy, whose transactions were screened from the representatives of the people by an impenetrable veil of secrecy. He could wish that the conduct of foreign affairs could be scrutinised by a Committee of this House, framed somewhat on the model of similar committees in other Parliaments. It would inspire greater confidence and bring to the consideration of foreign questions new points of view. Above all, it would impress into the
      1130
      service of the country the ripe experience of many hon. Gentlemen who had particular knowledge of these questions. But without labouring that point it was sufficient for him to dwell upon the fact that, outside official circles, the opinions of those who had studied the question were on one ground or another unanimously, or almost unanimously, against the proposed increase of the Customs. Now where did they stand? In May last proposals were presented by the Powers to the Porte making certain conditions to their consent to the increase. These were rejected by the Porte. The Government had informed the House that they were now engaged in reconsidering the whole question. Two courses were open to them: either to refuse to negotiate further or to make more stringent conditions to their consent. The latter course he understood was suggested by Lord Lansdowne in another place. What were the facts? By the scheme 60 per cent. of imports duties were to be evied upon British trade. By whom would it be paid? Who were the Powers who asked us to make this concession? What was the consideration offered? It was not for him to argue whether the duties were paid by British manufacturers or whether, as he believed, by the Turkish consumer, for the effect must inevitably be injuriously to affect British trade, because the Turkish consumer, who was an extremely poor man and becoming daily poorer, would be unable to purchase the same amount of commodities owing to the increase of price. For what purpose were these revenues to be applied? The Powers which were urging us to give our consent to the increased duties were the protected Powers of Europe—the very Powers which were taxing the imports from Turkey into their countries at very high rates. But it made very little difference to the other Powers of Europe whether Turkey put on a tax of 11 per cent., or 8 per cent., because being protected nations they clapped on far higher taxes on the imports that Turkey sent to them, whereas we took all the imports Turkey sent us entirely free from duty. Therefore we occupied a privileged position and we had a right to say to the Powers that in virtue of the fact that we supplied 60 per cent.

      1131
      of this trade we, above all other Powers, ought to be considered in this matter. We were entitled to say to Turkey that she had a right to consider us most, as we let in all her goods free of duty. Inasmuch as we gave all this to Turkey, what was the consideration we got in return? He understood we were going to get an improvement of the Customs Houses, a new Mining Law, and possibly collection by the Public Debt. As regarded the last-mentioned, it was already provided for by the Decree of Muharram of 1903. As regarded the new Mining Law, lie had been in communication with some mining authorities, and he had received a letter, unsolicited, from a leading mining authority in which the writer said that a point which struck him forcibly about these transactions with the Turkish Government was the ignorance of this country as to the supposed benefits which we were to receive by the improvement of the Mining Law. He hoped his right hon. friend would not think that collection by the Public Debt was entirely in the interests of this country. It was an admirable administration, but at the, same time collection of Customs by European administration was always an assistance. The bringing in of European Customs administration into Persia was the only means by which Russia gained her great commercial supremacy there. Then for what purpose were these revenues to be applied? They were to be devoted to supply the Macedonian deficit. But what on earth had our traders to do with the Budget of Macedonia? Surely if it was the desire of the Powers to come to the assistance of Turkey in Macedonia, why did they not issue a joint loan to Turkey in connection with Macedonia, and leave the Customs free? Was there not need for such a loan? The deficit in the Customs for the year ending March 13th, 1906, was £687,855, caused entirely by the enormous military expenditure in Macedonia, which during the year was £l,303,liil, as against the civil expenditure of £678,223. The revenues from increased duties were £750,000, and, deducting 25 per cent. for the reduction of debt, there was £560,000 left. If the proposal had been adopted to have the Customs collected by the Public Debt authorities, there was no doubt that the revenues would have
      1132
      more than balanced the deficit in the Macedonian Budget. The deficit was now supplied by drafts on the Department of Indirect Taxation according to the concession of December, 1905. At present, therefore, the deficit in Macedonia was supplied by Turkey out of Customs duties, and what we were asked to do was to supplement those revenues of indirect taxation to the extent of £600,000 a year. The result would inevitably be that this sum, which was at present drawn from Imperial taxation, would be applied to other purposes which Turkey had in view. Everything pointed to the fact that these sums would be used by Turkey to provide a guarantee for the Baghdad railway. He was not in the-least opposed to that railway, but they must insist that this country obtained proper terms in that settlement. If our Government consented to an increase before we had obtained proper terms from Germany, we would be throwing away one of the strongest weapons in our power. He therefore entered his protest. We supplied at present three-fifths of the trade with Turkey, and he was sure if we were only left alone we might increase it to a greater proportion. If the Foreign Office came in with an arrangement of this nature, all he could say was that the same result would follow: in Turkey as had followed elsewhere.
      THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir EDWARD GREY,): My hon. friends have raised a very important question. The increase in the Customs dues and the reform of Macedonia have been, by the policy of the late Government and continued by the present Government, undoubtedly linked together. My hon. friend truly said that this question of the increase of Customs duties in Turkey was not initiated by the present Government. We took it up where we found it. Lord Lansdowne had been approached with regard to it; he did not meet it with a negative. He had, on the contrary, indicated the conditions on which his Government would be prepared to agree to a 3 per cent, increase of the Customs dues in Turkey as far as this country was concerned. When a Foreign Minister, on behalf of his Government, indicates to another Government that he

      1133
      is prepared to agree to a certain increase in their Customs dues on certain conditions, it is not open to us without a considerable breach of continuity of policy—however we may regard it from a Party point of view here—and without its being regarded abroad in a commercial transaction of this kind as a breach of faith, to abandon at once the condition laid down by your predecessors and to say that you should start afresh. I thought it necessary to take up this question where Lord Lansdowne left it, and I found that certain expectations had been created, not only in the mind of Turkey but in the minds of the other Powers with whom Lord Lansdowne had been working closely with regard to Macedonian reforms, that the consent of this country should not be withheld from the increase of the 3 per cent, duties on Customs after the financial provisions had been granted by the Sultan and accepted by the Powers in Macedonia. I do not think that the expectation in the simple form in which I have stated it was warranted by what Lord Lansdowne said. He did not commit this country in quite such a simple form as that, and I went closely into the conditions which it seemed to me Lord Lansdowne had laid down. Broadly speaking. I interpreted them as being that Lord Lansdowne, would have been prepared to agree to the 3 per cent, increase of duties provided he could have been satisfied that the money raised by the increase would have been applied to the reform scheme in Macedonia in such a way as to be a benefit to Macedonia and to develop that scheme. I developed that condition a little further. It was not merely necessary to satisfy us that, the money would be applied to reform in Macedonia. We must also be satisfied that the whole of the 3 per cent. Customs was properly collected and applied. Unless you are sure that the whole was properly collected, it is impossible to be sure that it would be properly applied to the reforms in Macedonia. We developed that condition, and the proposal which we indicated would be acceptable to us was that the Commission of the Debt, a well-known body, trustworthy in finance, should have the supervision of the collection of these Customs dues, and
      1134
      that the dues so collected should be paid in in such a manner that they should be applied to the scheme o£ reforms in Macedonia. We were fortunate enough to secure what was very important—the co-operation of the other Powers—in pressing that condition upon, the Sultan. After all, on this matter of the increase of the Customs, I have felt it important to maintain another condition which Lord Lansdowne bequeathed to us as part of his policy—namely, to preserve the concert of the Powers. We have stipulated in regard to the increase of the Customs, that we should carry with us the other Powers, because I consider that most important both from the point of view of Macedonia and of securing adequate conditions for the increase. Why is the concert of the Powers so important? It is everything to the progress of reform in Macedonia. This country is not prepared to undertake responsibility alone, beyond its power to fulfil it, for preserving order in Macedonia. All we can do in regard to Macedonia we must do by diplomatic influence at Constantinople. Dissension among the Powers would undoubtedly bring into the whole question not order in which is so much wanted, but confusion. And the influence of diplomacy at Constantinople must be infinitely weakened by the withdrawal even of one of the Powers from the concert which Lord Lansdowne succeeded in maintaining. I do not agree with my hon. friend who spoke first with regard to the work that the Financial Commission has done. Some progress has been made in Macedonia— improvements have been made with regard to the levy of the tithe and the collection of the taxes, both of which were felt to be oppressive in many parts of the Turkish Empire. The situation has been very much improved in Macedonia, and it would compare favourably to-day with some other parts of the Turkish Empire. The thing which has stopped progress in Macedonia has not been that the Financial Commission has been a failure, it has been the constant activity of the bands of rival nationalities that has continued throughout this year. When my hon. friend quotes, and rightly, with regret and sadness the number of murders which have taken place in Macedonia, those are due to the activity of the

      1135
      irresponsible bands of rival nationalities. The mere presence of the European officers of the gendarmerie in Macedonia has done a great deal to ameliorate the conduct of the Turkish troops, and the worst difficulty in Macedonia to-day is not oppression with regard to the collection of the tithes or taxes, not the conduct of the Turkish troops, but the constant activity of bands, sometimes of one rationality, sometimes of another. That makes it very difficult to insist upon the reduction of the military force which the Turks maintain in Macedonia. I do not see how you can insist upon a reduction of the force there unless you are prepared to guaranteee the frontiers from attack. But I see great force in the point that if the Turkish Government is allowed indefinitely to increase the amount of military expenditure charged to the Macedonian Budget it may result in the scheme of reforms, which must depend on civil expenditure, being starved; and the increase in the Customs may result in an increase not of the civil but of the military expenditure. Therefore I think it is important that though it may be impossible to reduce the amount of military expenditure on the Macedonian Budget, yet, if we agree to the increase of the Customs with the object of effecting civil reforms, we should have some undertaking that the military budget will not be increased.
      MR. LYNCH: Is not a reduction of the 80,000 men now in Macedonia possible?
      SIR EDWARD GREY: As I found the question, a considerable reduction of military expenditure had taken place; but the Powers had agreed to the present military expenditure being charged on the Budget. I am sure that, with the proper administration of the Macedonian finance which will be secured in due time under the Financial Commission, an increase in the Customs duties would in a few years provide a sum of money for civil reforms, providing that the military expenditure was not increased. After all that has passed you cannot get the Powers to consent to a reduction of the existing expenditure; but if you secure that it shall not be increased, you will get the product of the increase of the
      1136
      Customs for ameliorating the state of affairs in Macedonia. I think that the increase in the Customs should not be permitted until we have satisfactory guarantees that the money will not be wasted, but will be properly applied. If we do not succeed in securing those conditions and if the 3 per cent, increase is not granted, then I am afraid the outlook in Macedonia is a very bad one, and, in spite of what my hon. friend has said with regard to the use we are prepared to make of the money, I am convinced from all the information I have that the present condition of Turkish finance is such that unless some relief of this kind is given to the Porte on satisfactory conditions there is a danger that the whole scheme of financial reform as it exists to-day will fall to the ground. That is why I regard this question as so serious, and, though we are not prepared to give way, except on satisfactory and adequate conditions, I cannot for a moment hold out any prospect that we are prepared to meet this demand with an unconditional refusal.
      Resolution agreed to.
      And, it being Ten of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER proceeded to put forthwith the Questions, That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of Class II. of the Civil Services Estimates, and the Navy Estimates.
      Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of Class II. of the Civil Services Estimates,"
      Put, and agreed to.

      NAVY ESTIMATES, 1906–7.
      Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of the Navy Estimates," put, and agreed to

      WAYS AND MEANS [31ST JULY] REPORT.
      Resolution reported.
      "That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the Service of the year ending on the 31st day of March 1907, the sum of £68,528,828 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."
      Resolution agreed to.
      Bill ordered to be brought in by the Chairman of Ways and Means, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. McKenna, and Mr. Whiteley.

      PUBLIC WORKS LOANS [REPAYMENT].
      Resolution reported.
      "That it is expedient to authorise the extension of time for the repayment of a loan made by the Public Works Loan Commissioners to the South Staffordshire Mines Drainage Commissioners, in pursuance of any Act of the present Session, to grant money for the purpose of certain Local Loans out of the Local Loans Fund, and for other purposes relating to Local Loans."
      Resolution agreed to.

      PUBLIC WORKS LOANS BILL.
      Considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment; Bill read the third time and passed.
      LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) ACT (1898) AMENDMENT BILL.
      Considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment; Bill read the third time and passed.

      CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) BILL.
      "To apply a sum out of the Consolidated Fund to the service of the year
      1138
      ending on the thirty-first day of March. one thousand nine hundred and seven, and to appropriate the Supplies granted in this Session of Parliament," presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time To-morrow.

      LABOURERS (IRELAND) BILL.
      Lords Amendments considered.
      MR. BRYCEsaid it might be convenient to the House to state, before the adjournment, that he proposed to accept some of the Amendments on this Bill made in another place. Some of them he did not altogether approve of, but they were not of much importance.
      Lord's Amendment—
      "In page 1, line 23, to leave out ' can ' and insert 'will.'"
      Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment."
      MR. CLANCYsaid he wished to shorten discussion and promote general harmony, and therefore he would be brief in his remarks. All the same he wished to say that in accepting some of the Amendments on the Bill he and those for whom he was authorised to speak felt that the House of Lords had acted in their characteristic manner in dealing with this Bill. It seemed to him that they had been willing to wound and yet afraid to strike. They had gone through the whole of the Bill and amended it here and there. They had shown their teeth but had been afraid to bite. They had made many Amendments, which he was authorised to say for the Irish National Party were vital, except one; but all of the Amendments had been made in the direction of cutting down the benefit of the provisions and rendering the Act, when passed, as unworkable as possible. The principal Amendment on the Paper was that referring to the right of appeal. The Government now proposed to have an alternative appeal and the Irish Members were willing to accept that. But there was one Amendment on the Paper which he hoped the Government would not

      1139
      accept, and that was in regard to advances made to labourers and the sons of labourers. It might be argued that the sons of labourers were labourers themselves and therefore it was not necessary to include them amongst those to whom advances were to be made.
      Question put, and agreed to.
      Lords' Amendment—
      "In page 2, line 7, leave out clause 4."
      MR. BRYCEsaid he desired to move that this House do not agree with the Lords' Amendment, and suggested that whilst they should restore Clause 4, they should insert in place of a month, which had been suggested, three weeks as the time for entering an appeal. He hoped it would generally be accepted as a reasonable compromise.
      SIR E. CARSONsaid he would point out the great inconvenience of discussing these Amendments without having them on the Paper, and suggested that on future occasions those who had charge of Bills should see that that was done.
      MR. BRYCEsaid the Amendments were printed but they were in the Vote Office. They had been there since four o'clock to-day.
      SIR E. CARSONsaid it was impossible to hon. Members to know when they were ready. They could not be expected to be constantly going to the Vote Office.
      Lords' Amendment disagreed to.
      Amendment proposed—
      " Clause 4, line 7, leave out '14' in order to insert '21.' "—(Mr. Bryce.)
      Amendment agreed to.
      Subsequent Lords' Amendments down to the Lords' Amendment in page 6, line 41, agreed to.
      Lords' Amendment—
      "In page 6, line 41, after 'sub-section,' insert as a new sub-seotion:—'A copy of the receipt shall, on the request of any person entitled to any estate or interest in the land in respect of which the purchase money or compensation was paid, be furnished by the council to that person."
      MR. BRYCEsaid he thought this Amendment was an improvement. It would be more effective if the additional words "at their expense" were inserted. They had been suggested in another place, but they could not be inserted there as it would raise a question of privilege. He proposed that they should accept the Lords' Amendment and add the words "at their expense."
      Lords' Amendment agreed to.
      Question, "That the words ' at their expense' be inserted after the word ' council,'" put, and agreed to.
      Lords' Amendment—
      "In page 7, line 30, to leave out Subsection (9) of Clause 11."
      *MR. SPEAKERsaid that in his opinion this Amendment was an infringement of the privileges of the Commons. It would enable an arbitrator to add an additional sum for compulsory purchase which would involve an increase of rates. This was not within the competence of the Houes of Lords.
      MR. BRYCEmoved that the House disagree with the said Amendment.
      Lords' Amendment disagreed to.
      Lords Amendment—
      "In page 7, line, 41, after 'pounds,' insert 'unless the court shall otherwise order.'"
      *MR. SPEAKERsaid he had to make the same observation with regard to this Amendment which also would involve an additional charge on the rates, and therefore was not within the competence of the Lords.
      Lords' Amendment disageed to.
      Lords' Amendment—
      "In page 10, line 35, to leave out ' or by the foil of any such labourer.' "
      MR. BRYCEsaid he sympathised with what had been said by the hon. Member for North Dublin. He thought this was an unfortunate Amendment and regretted it had been made. But he did not think it was of much practical consequence. Owing to the shortness

      1141
      of the time it would be a pity to delay the Bill, which was wanted by everybody in Ireland, and therefore he would suggest the hon. Member should not insist in his motion.
      MR. FLYNNsaid the feeling in Ireland was that these words were unfair to the agricultural labourers of Ireland, and therefore he hoped the Government would stand firm and not allow the Lords' Amendment to stand.
      MR. SHEEHANsaid it was an Amendment carried on the motion of the hon. Member for Cork City. It was valuable from their point of view because it was thought it would induce young labourers to stop on the and.
      MR. HAYDENpointed out that there were several instances where labourers had been refused a cottage on the ground that they were not married. He urged the right hon. Gentleman to accept the views that had been put forward from the Irish benches.
      THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. Cherry,)said that if this Amendment of the Lords had the effect of excluding a large number of people from the benefit of the Bill he would at once agree with what had been said, but that was not his view. If a cottage was refused to a labourer on the ground that he was not married it would be quite illegal.
      MR. SHEEHANsaid they were not referring to cottages, but to advances for untenanted land.
      MR. CHERRYsaid they naturally did not wish to give it to a boy, but a man of twenty-one, though he lived with his father, was an agricultural labourer within the meaning of the definition of the Bill. So far as he could see, having regard to the fact that very few if any would be affected by the Amendment, it was not desirable to persist in this Motion.
      SIR E. CARSONsaid he understood that this was a Bill for the benefit of the labourers, and if that was so every
      1142
      labourer would be entitled to benefit from it.
      MR. CLANCYsaid that the hon. and learned Gentleman as an expert, had expressed his opinion upon this Amendment, and upon his statement he hoped the Chief Secretary would so direct the Local Government Board in the administration of this Bill. Under the circumstances he did not think they would be justified in detaining the Bill on this point.
      Lords' Amendment agreed to.
      Remaining Lords' Amendments agreed to.
      MR. BRYCEmoved that a Committee should be appointed to draw up reasons to be assigned to the Lords for differing from them in regard to certain Amendments which their Lordships had made in the Labourers' (Ireland) Bill. He also moved that the Committee should consist of himself, the Attorney-General for Ireland, Mr. Clancy, Mr. Sheehan, and Mr. C. Craig.
      Committee appointed to draw up Reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing to certain of their Amendments to the Bill
      Committee nominated of—Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland, Mr. James Bryce, Mr. Clancy, Mr. Charles Craig, and Mr. Sheehan.
      To withdraw immediately.
      Three to be the quorum.—(Mr. James Bryce.)

    COLONIAL MARRIAGES BILL [LORDS].
    Considered in Committee
    COLONIAL MARRIAGES BILL [LORDS].

      Mr. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the Chair.
      (In the Committee.)
      Clause 1:—
      *THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. CHURCHILL,)said there

      1143
      was a technical Amendment to the clause which it was his duty to submit to the Committee. This Bill was one to enable persons married under laws which had received the assent of the Crown in the Colonies, to inherit real estate in this country, and otherwise to receive the privileges of those who had entered into lawful marriages in this country. There was a proviso to Clause 1 which was designed to prevent this Act having any retrospective effect. The Amendment he had to ask the Committee to accept was to leave out the words
      " Nor any claim by the Crown for any duty due at the passing of this Act,"
      in order to insert a new proviso prepared on the advice of the Board of Inland Revenue to make sure that duties paid in respect of deaths before the passing of the Bill were not to be returned and that duties commuted or compounded for in the anticipation of death until after the passing of the Bill were not to be returned.
      Amendment proposed—
      "To leave out the words, ' Nor any claim by the Crown for any duty due at the passing of this Act.'"
      Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
      SIR E. CARSONsaid he must enter a protest against the pressing of an Amendment of this kind without any notice having been given. He did not suppose there was any Member of the House who understood what the meaning of the Amendment was. He certainly did not, and he was doubtful whether the hon. Member who moved it understood it himself. Of course, the hon. Member had the power of passing the Amendment, and he seemed to think that that was sufficient, and he did not think it necessary to display the courtesy of putting his proposals upon the Paper so that they could be understood. It was almost a farce in regard to business of this kind if long and complicated Amendments were put before the House without notice.
      *MR. CHURCHILLsaid he was sorry that the right hon. and learned Gentle-
      1144
      man did not understand the Amendment, because it was couched in the legal rigmarole of which he was so great a master. It was not his desire to show any discourtesy to the Committee and least of all to the right hon. Gentleman who had just addressed it. The Amendment was of a purely formal and technical character and did not alter the original sense or intention of the measure. He regretted that it had drawn from the right hon. Gentleman such very severe and wounding comments as he had thought it his duty to make.
      SIR E. CARSON: I do not understand a word of it.
      *MR. CHURCHILLwas sorry that his right hon. friend did not understand the Amendment, because it was, as he had said, drawn in that legal rigmarole of which he was such a master. The only object of it was to provide that the provisions of the Bill should not be retrospective.
      SIR E. CARSONinquired if the Lords would be able to make an Amendment on the matter now before the Committee.
      *MR. CHURCHILLsaid that was a matter of procedure upon which he could not be expected to give any opinion.
      Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause," put and negatived.
      New proviso inserted.
      Bill reported; as amended, to be considered To-morrow, and to be printed. [No. 339.]

      STREET BUTTING BILL [LORDS].
      Considered in Committee.
      (In the Committee.)
      Clause 1:—
      MR. GLADSTONEmoved an Amendment providing that any person frequenting "or loitering in streets or public

      1145
      places" for the purpose of betting shall be liable to the specified penalties.
      *MR. CLAUDE HAYwished to know whether they could have some clear definition of the word "loiter," and he reminded the Secretary of State that he had already this year appointed a Royal Commission to ascertain the meaning of the word "loitering" as understood and used by the police in London.
      *MR. GLADSTONE: It is a well-known word in the English language.
      LORD BALCARRESasked if a telegraph office was a public place. Would this Act prevent a man standing about a telegraph office and making bets by telegram?
      *MR. GLADSTONEsaid he had a great deal of sympathy with the noble Earl's object and he believed that as a matter of law a Post Office was a public place. The difficulty of deciding whether a man who was sent to bet by telegram really came within the scope of the Act was so great that it was impossible to draft an Amendment to cover it.
      SIR E. CARSONsaid he was sorry that the Home Secretary had come to that conclusion. The Government had not given much time for Members to put down Amendments, because it was past 2 o'clock, after midnight, when the Bill was passed. The right hon. Gentleman last night made a very able and powerful and useful speech upon this question of betting in streets and public places, but would the public believe he was in earnest if a man was permitted to be arrested outside a telegraph office for betting whilst the Government were receiving hundreds of thousands of pounds inside the telegraph office for the purpose of transmitting bets to bookmakers? He did not see what the practical difficulties were. If the right hon. Gentleman issued an instruction that no telegraph clerks should receive a bet, that might meet the case. If it was enacted that it was punishable by fine to send a bet by telegraph, there would not be much difficulty in the matter. The great difficulty was that the Government, while they pretended to wish to do
      1146
      something to put down an admitted evil of a very great character, desired themselves to countenance this system of betting for the sake of revenue. It was purely and solely a question of revenue which prevented the Government dealing with it. If in this Act they had a section really preventing and legislating against the transmission of bets by telegraph, it would smash up the whole bookmaking system throughout this country. There was nothing more pitiable than to go into a country post office, close to some small local races, and see the men there who were hardly able to buy their own dinners waiting to telegraph 5s. or 2s. 6d. to have a bet on some of those races. So long as that practice existed the public would consider the Government particeps criminis in this matter; if the right hon. Gentleman had given them a little more time to put down Amendments to make it perfectly clear that the Government were determined to alleviate the evils, they would have done much to put an end to this disastrous system which went on throughout the whole country.
      *MR. GLADSTONEreminded the right hon. Gentleman that there was still a Report stage upon which he could exercise his legal ingenuity to draft an Amendment which it would be possible to accept. If he would do that the Government would be extremely glad to consider it. He did not know whether this Amendment would cover that. He did not know whether a telegraph office was a public place. He was not a lawyer, but he should have thought it was outside the scope of this Bill, which was one for "the suppression of betting in streets and other public places." He would remind the hon. and learned Gentleman, who was a distinguished Member of the late Government, that this Bill was sent down from the Lords in the past two sessions, and that it never advanced to the present stage in this House [An HON. MEMBER: It was blocked.]. He did not know who blocked it, but what the Government were doing now the late Government could easily have done. It was a Bill which at any rate provided a partial solution. He did not claim anything more for it. If they could pass this Bill, however, he would suggest to the

      1147
      Postmaster-General and his colleagues that perhaps a Bill might be brought in next year aimed at betting by telegraph.
      MR. PAULsaid this was not a question of legal ingenuity. It was a very serious matter. Betting by telegraph was more injurious than betting at street corners. He did not understand why the right hon. Gentleman could not accept the Amendment. If a telegraph office was not a public place it was not a private place. The Government did not allow messages of an improper or immoral character to be sent by telegraph, and he wished they did not allow messages to be sent in regard to betting transactions. He hoped words would be introduced at this stage, or on the Report stage, to stop this system of betting, which caused untold misery to the public.
      SIR E. CARSONsaid that if betting by telegraph were not within the scope of the Bill the Bill was not worth anything. He did not think the right hon. Gentleman would find the least difficulty in legislating to prevent the transmission of betting messages by telegraph. He admitted that the law might sometimes be evaded, but let them put on the face of the Bill that this House disapproved of the system.
      MR. CHARLES CRAIGsaid it seemed to him that this Bill was framed for a certain specific object, and that was to put a stop to the system of street betting which enabled the poorer classes to put small bets on horse races. What was now proposed was that they should graft an entirely different principle on the Bill at the last moment. Were they to understand, for instance, that if Lord Rosebery, who was an excellent type of sportsman, went to a post office and put on a bet he was to be liable to a fine? [An HON. MEMBER: Why not? He would tell the hon. Member. He was endeavouring to explain that this Bill was not framed to deal with a case of that kind. The Bill was intended to deal with the case of the poor man. [An HON. MEMBER: Why?] He thought that the acceptance of the Amendment would do what the framers of
      1148
      the Bill did not really intend, and he hoped that the Home Secretary would make the point perfectly clear.
      *MR. GLADSTONEsaid that he quite agreed with the hon. Member that there were great difficulties which had not been not by the Bill. Besides betting by telegraph, there was the difficult case of betting by telephone.
      SIR E. CARSONsaid that most people now bet by telephone because there was no record of it.
      *MR. GLADSTONEsaid that they had also to consider the legitimate secrecy of the telegraph. The Government would put this Bill when passed on trial, and would consider whether afterwards any Amendment could be made upon it.
      MR. BOTTOMLEYsaid that this was a very important question. A post office had been held by competent Courts of Law to be a public place. Was it to be distinctly understood that the Government in passing this measure would render liable to arrest Lord Rosebery or the Duke of Devonshire who entered a post office in order to put a bet by telegraph on a horse they fancied, or even to make a bet on the life of the present Government?
      Amendment agreed to:
      Amendment proposed—
      "In page 1, line 7, to leave out the words ' or wagering' "—(Mr. Gladstone.)
      MR. CLAUDE HAYasked why these words "or wagering" should be left out? Was it designed to cover any transaction now conducted in the streets which was connected with matters of business in different parts in the United Kingdom? He understood that the Lord Chancellor and Lord Davey had thought it necessary to put these two words into the Bill.
      SIR E. CARSONsaid he was very sorry that the right hon. Gentleman proposed to leave these words out of the Bill.
      *MR. GLADSTONEsaid he would ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
      Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
      MR. BOTTOMLEYsaid that the first amendment standing in his name was to reduce the fine from £10 to £5, which he submitted was quite sufficient.
      Amendment proposed—
      "In page 1, line 11, to leave out the word 'ten' and insert the word 'five.' "—(Mr. Bottomley.)
      Question, "That the word ' ten ' stand part of the Clause," put, and agreed to.
      MR. BOTTOMLEYsaid that after the decision just arrived at he would not proceed with his other Amendments.
      MR. LUPTONmoved an Amendment with a view to omitting the provision that in the case of a third or subsequent offence or in the case of a person committing the offence of having a betting transaction with a person under the age of sixteen years he should be liable to imprisonment, with or without hard labour, for six months, without the option of a fine. He thought the punishment was monstrous.
      Amendment proposed—
      "In page 1, line 20, to leave out from the word ' pounds ' to the word ' tine ' in line 22. — (Mr. Lupton.)
      Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
      MR. CHARLES CRAIGsupported the Amendment, and said the penalty was an extremely heavy one for a person who perhaps only bet half-a-crown three times. Such a provision was unworthy of any assembly which called itself an assembly of reasonable men.
      MR. J. W. WILSON, thought this was a very serious question, and pointed out that bookmakers employed men and paid them well to bet with youths, women, and children. If the penalty was made severe they would not be able to get men to do this dirty work.
      SIR E. CARSONsaid his hon. friend who moved the Amendment seemed to have overlooked the fact that the im-
      1150
      prisonment only followed upon a third offence having been committed. Therefore a person convicted must have determined to defy the law. The penalty for a person willing to enter into such transactions with a boy of sixteen was not one whit too large.
      *MR. GLADSTONEsaid the Government could not accept the Amendment, because if they did so the Bill would become useless.
      Amendment negatived.
      MR. BOTTOMLEYmoved the omission of Sub-section 2, which provided that any constable might take into custody without warrant any person found committing an offence under the Act, and might seize and detain any article liable to be forfeited under the Act. He submitted that in view of the fact that the telegraph and telephone offices might be places within the meaning of the Act, to give a policeman liberty to loiter round those places in the hope of making an arrest was not desirable. He asked the Government if they would not accept his Amendment or find words to limit the power of arrest to cases where there was a complaint. He moved to omit the sub-section.
      Amendment proposed—
      "To leave out Sub-section 2".—(Mr. Bottomley.)
      *MR. GLADSTONEsaid he could not accept the Amendment. The custom at present was to arrest without warrant, and in this case it seemed to be necessary.
      MR. LUPTONsupported the Amendment. It was, he said, a monstrous thing that if two men happened to meet in the street and had a bet a constable should come up and run them in. There was something more important even than putting betting down, and that was upholding justice. This was a prostitution of law and justice. Under this Bill it would be legal for a lord or a rich man to make a bet on the racecourse, but if a poor man made a bet in the street he was to be run in. Was this great Liberal Government going to begin its work by filling the gaols of this country with, innocent men?
      MR. J. W. WILSONsaid he merely wished to confirm what he had said on the previous evening, that powers of this kind had already been conferred on three towns.
      MR. SHACKLETONsaid this Bill was aimed at the professional bookmaker, who was far better engaged serving his time in prison than in demoralising working men. In this case these people were well known, and to give a man a chance of running away every time a policeman saw him was absurd.
      MR. BOTTOMLEYsaid it was not only the wicked bookmaker but the poor innocent working-man who put his 6d. on who was liable to arrest.
      MR. CULLINANasked whether the Bill was designed to punish the bookmaker?
      *MR. GLADSTONEsaid the Bill was designed against the men who made a profession of betting, and frequenting places for that purpose. They were the bookmakers.
      MR. MITCHELL-THOMSONasked for an interpretation of the words "articles relating to betting." He pointed out that those words were sufficiently wide to comprehend money passed to the bookmaker, which he was sure the right hon. Gentleman did not intend. If the right hon. Gentleman agreed with him he hoped he would consider the matter and make it clear before the Report stage.
      MR. GLADSTONEagreed that there was something in the point of the hon. Gentleman, and said he would look into it very carefully. If it was as the hon. Gentleman said, he would take care to alter it on Report.
      MR. CLAUDE HAYasked whether the Bill was designed to punish bookmakers plying their trade, and not those who made occasional bets.
      *MR. GLADSTONEsaid a man must be frequenting a place for the purpose of betting.
      MR. LUPTONsaid that Clause provided that if a man made a bet h was to be run in.
      SIR E. CARSONsaid he did not think the observations of the Home Secretary ought to go unchallenged. If the right hon. Gentleman meant that this Act was only to apply to those who were known as bookmakers, taking bets in the street, he thought he was mistaken; any person found in the street making a bet could be punished under this Bill.
      *MR. GLADSTONEsaid all he did was to answer a specific question put to him as to whether if a man made a bet in the street for the first time he would be sent to prison. He did not think any magistrate would find a person in a case like that guilty of loitering or frequenting public places for the purposes of betting.
      Amendment negatived.
      *MR. WATTsaid that he was under the impression that a recent deputation to the Undersecretary had converted him to their views upon this point, but the Government had not adopted their suggestion. The Bill gave power to "seize and detain," but not the right of search. It stood to sense that such articles as books, cards and papers relating to betting would be secreted about the person. By the law of Scotland the police officer in charge of the station had not the right to search, and the object of this Amendment was to give the power under this Bill. He begged to move.
      Amendment proposed—
      "In page 2, line 5, after ' and,' to insert' the officer in charge of the police station to which such person is taken may cause such person to be searched and."'—(Mr. Watt.)
      *MR. GLADSTONEsaid the Government could not accept this Amendment because any constable at the present time had the right of search, and why should that right be limited to the officer in charge at the station? His hon. and learned friend informed him that the

      1153
      law in Scotland with regard to search was the same as in England.
      Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
      MR. BOTTOMLEYmoved to leave out Sub-section (3) of Clause 1. A person might be sent to prison for six months if, in the opinion of the Court, he had made a bet and was under the age limit allowed by this Bill. This sub-section threw the onus upon the prisoner of proving his own innocence. The proceedings under this Bill might be either in a Court of Summary Jurisdiction or by indictment. What was the position of a bookmaker who was charged with betting with someone under the age of sixteen and who honestly believed that the person he was betting with was over that age? Probably some short-sighted stipendiary magistrate would take a casual glance at the prisoner and say that he looked under the age of sixteen. Probably the boy would be sent down to the Criminal Court and possibly they would have in the end to search the register at Somerset House. [Cries of "Oh."] Hon. Members should remember that they were dealing with a Bill which immediately it became law would be construed literally according to the laws of evidence. If they gave a prisoner the benefit of such a safeguard as that which he was suggesting no man could be deprived of this plea—that he had reason to believe the prisoner was above the statutory age. He hoped they would not violate every fundamental principle of justice in the Law Courts by passing this sub-section,
      Amendment proposed—
      "In page 2, line 7, to leave out Sub-section (3)."—(Mr. Bottomley.)
      *MR. GLADSTONEsaid this sub-section referred to the lads under the age of sixteen, with whom a bookmaker made bets. There were precedents for this proposal. Surely if there was any doubt in the mind of the Court about the lad's age, they would take precautions to call for his birth certificate.
      MR. LUPTONsaid this was another case of making a prisoner prove his innocence when it was the duty of the
      1154
      prosecution to prove him guilty. A more monstrous proposition he had seldom heard placed before this House.
      Amendment negatived.
      MR. BOTTOMLEYmoved to leave out Sub-section (4,) because it professed to be an interpretation clause, and this was the opportunity for the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill to introduce his proposal to amend the Act so as to apply to telegraph offices and make it quite clear that the Act was intended to apply in such cases.
      Amendment proposed—
      "In page 2, line 10, leave out Sub-section (4)."
      *MR. GLADSTONEsaid this subsection was intended to remove any doubt about certain places which it might be held would not come within the meaning of the Act.
      *MR. HICKS BEACHsaid that some race meetings were conducted upon open ground to which the public had free access. What the Home Secretary said was that it was the intention of this Bill simply to prohibit bookmakers frequenting the street in order to induce people to bet on things which they did not see. If there was any doubt about this question it was desirable that the Government should consider the advisability of including some proviso to exempt coursing meetings.
      Amendment negatived.
      Drafting Amendment agreed to.
      *MR. CLAUDE HAYmoved the omission of the word "unenclosed." If betting was an evil it should be dealt with as a whole and not piece-meal, and if persons who possessed much of this world's goods were to be allowed to bet because they went to an enclosed ground for access to which they paid an entrance fee, then they were tolerating within a ringed fence that which they considered an offence if it was done in a club or in a street. They must deal with the rich man as well as the poor man.
      Amendment proposed—
      "In page 2, line 14, to leave out the word ' unenclosed.' "
      Question proposed, "That the word proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
      *MR. GLADSTONEsaid this word was extremely necessary. The definition clause was subjected, to the closest scrutiny by eminent legal members of the House of Lords, and he was very much afraid that if any alteration were made it might endanger the passage of the Bill.
      MR. CLAUDE HAYsaid the right hon. Gentleman had already thrown over the House of Lords by accepting an Amendment. The right hon. Gentleman had given him no answer. If betting was an evil it was the same whether carried on by rich or by poor.
      SIR E. CARSONsaid he did not see any reason why the word "unenclosed" was there. In the case of a football match or a cricket match he thought the sport was often spoiled by the betting which went on. What difference did it make whether the place was enclosed or unenclosed if the public had unrestricted access? They could not apply this Bill to private grounds, because, of course, the police could not go in.
      *MR. GLADSTONEsaid he would consider the matter, and if necessary propose an Amendment at a later stage.
      MR. T. M. HEALYsaid the right hon. Gentleman should accept the Amendment, and then tell the House of Lords that it came from the Tory Party in the House of Commons.
      MR. CLAUDE HAYsaid that in view of the promise made by the Home Secretary he would ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
      Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
      MR. FORSTERmoved an Amendment to make the
      1156
      Clause apply to any enclosed ground used for the holding of any atheltic sports or cycle racing. He wished to know the views of the Home Secretary on this matter. He believed that the National Cyclists Union was anxious that an Amendment of this kind should be inserted. It was in the interest of clean and healthy sport that the Amendment should be made
      Amendment agreed to.
      Motion made, and question proposed, "That Clause 1, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
      MR.T. M. HEALYasked the Government to consider whether in Ireland the right of appeal should not be given in the case of sentences of under one month's imprisonment. It was a real hardship that a police magistrate should be able to pass such a sentence and that the accused should not have the right of appeal. He was quite with the Government in regard to this Bill. He thought they were taking a proper step, but he held a man should not be liable to lose his liberty for a month without having the right of appeal. There was the right of appeal in England and Scotland, and he thought it was time that the whole question of public liberty should be put on the same footing in Ireland.
      THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. CHERRY,said the matter was one worthy of consideration. He could say for himself, and he thought he could say also for the Home Secretary, that it was a very desirable thing that there should be the right of appeal.
      Question put, and agreed to.
      Clause 2:—
      MR. MITCHELL-THOMSONsaid he was not quite sure of the meaning of the words "procedure before provided for." He hoped that some exception would be made, and he proposed to insert words so that the clause should road: "Nothing contained in this Act shall, save as hereinbefore

      1157
      provided, apply to any racecourse" He begged to move.
      Amendment proposed—
      "In page 2, line 10, after the word 'shall,' to insert the words ' save as hereinbefore provided.' "—(Mr. Mitchell-Thomson.)
      Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
      *MR. GLADSTONEsaid that the point would be considered before the Report stage.
      Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
      MR. MITCHELL-THOMSONsaid he wished to move an Amendment to add to Clause 2 the words "or other quantity." He admitted that the words were somewhat curious in their present form, but if they were going to exempt racecourses, it should be remembered that there were racecourses in large numbers, especially in the north of England and in Scotland, where there were other than horse races. He referred to dog races. He maintained that a dog race was as clean as any horse race, and if exemption was desirable in one case it was also desirable in other cases. There was also the question of foot racing as well as cycling racing.
      *MR. GLADSTONEsaid that there was no exact analogy between coursing and horse racing. The people who attended the former meetings did not go there for the purpose of betting professionally, and those who went to enjoy legitimate sport should not come under the operation of the Act. He undertook, however, to look into the question.
      MR. CHARLES CEAIGsaid he presumed that most people regarded the coursing match for the Waterloo Cup as an ordinary race meeting, but the question of extending this Bill to all coursing meetings as well as to horse race meetings should be very carefully considered.
      Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
      SIR E. CARSONmoved to amend Clause 2 by leaving out the provision that nothing contained in the Act should apply to ground "adjacent to" a racecourse on days upon which
      1158
      races took place. He did not see the necessity for the words.
      Amendment proposed—
      "In page 2, clause 2, lines 17 and 18, to leave out the words ' or adjacent thereto.' "— (Sir H. Carson).
      Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
      *MR. GLADSTONEsaid that there were certain parts adjacent to a racecourse which might not come within the legal definition of a racecourse. Therefore it was necessary, he thought, to have these words in. It was the first time that his attention had been drawn to this matter, however, and he would consider it.
      LORD BALCARRESsaid these were rather important words, and, like many other expressions in the Bill, would require legal definition. Did "adjacent thereto" mean fifty or 100 yards or a quarter of a mile? That would have to be settled by a Court of law. The provision meant that on Monday when races were being held you could bet at a particular place or upon a particular road, but on Tuesday when races were not being held you would get six months for doing so. He thought it was desirable that there should be some machinery established for determining this question in advance, and he hoped before the Report stage the Home Secretary would consider the matter.
      MR. T. M. HEALYthought that the Liberal Party were playing into the hands of their opponents, because they were endeavouring to put down betting in every part of the country except those which were resorted to by the aristocracy.
      *THE CHAIRMANsaid the hon. Member was making remarks which should be made on the clause rather than on the present Amendment.
      MR. T. M. HEALYsaid in that case he should have to make a second speech.
      MR. CLAUDE HAYasked whether the words "adjacent thereto" might not be held to include the betting ring.
      *MR. GLADSTONE: No; that is not a public place.
      Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
      Report made, and Question proposed "That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill."
      MR. T. M. HEALYsaid that the Government proposed to put down the miserable people who betted sixpence while they allowed peers and monarchs to bet in hundreds and thousands of pounds. And this was said to be the Party of the democracy. This Bill and this clause, moreover, came from the House of Lords, and no doubt the Government case was that they must take the moat they could from that House. He thought, however, that the best thing to do was to take this clause out and send the Bill back to the House of Lords and leave upon them the responsibility of restoring it.
      *MR. GLADSTONEsaid he had already pointed out that if they omitted this clause it would strike at the poor man and would not affect the rich, because the betting ring was protected inasmuch it was not a public place. Therefore the rich people could bet there but the poor man could not bet even upon a racecourse when races were being run. This was the result of the Kempton Park case.
      MR. T. M. HEALYsaid the right hon. Gentleman was mistaken about the Kempton Park case, which only applied to a house, office, or place, and not to a racecourse. The decision was under the Betting House Act, which dealt with betting houses. He was as anxious as anybody to put down this nefarious system of betting, and if the Government was honest in the matter they would put it down in the post offices. They had now left themselves open to the taunt that they put down Tom, Dick, and Harry, and allowed to go free the peers and other persons and rich people, who were the tempters in this matter, who spent their tens of thousands in so-called sport and tempted the working men. They gave the little men six months while they
      1160
      allowed the protectors of this vice to go free. It was the Liberal Party who were making themselves this rod to be laid on their own backs by the Conservative Party.
      *MR. GLADSTONEsaid he would no put himself in competition with the hon. and learned Member on a question of law, but he was advised that the law was perfectly distinct on this point, and that it was against the view taken of the hon. and learned Member.
      SIR E. CARSON: What view?
      *MR. GLADSTONEsaid if this clause were struck out the betting rings on the racecourse would be perfectly immune. The words of Clause 1 were "unrestricted access." these people had not unrestricted access to the betting rings.
      MR. T. M. HEALY: Epsom Downs.
      *MR. GLADSTONE: That was his whole point. People did not wander up Epsom Downs making casual bets. But the class of society using the betting rings did not. If this clause was struck out the betting rings would still be immune, and they would not strike at the betting tendency of the wealthy by taking out the clause. All the criticism of this Bill had been that it was a Bill dealing with the poor and not striking at the rich, and it had been argued on that basis. If the rich man frequented a street for the purpose of betting, or if he betted with a bookmaker in the street, he would come within the provisions of the Bill. But they were now talking of omitting this clause, and he was pointing out that if it was omitted the omission would not effect the purpose they all desired to secure.
      MR. T. W. RUSSELLsaid that if this Bill raised the whole question they would have no difficulty in assenting to the clause, because they would rather have the Bill with the clause than lose it altogether; nevertheless, many Members had had great difficulty in supporting this exceptional legislation. If they could legislate against betting at street corners why could they not legislate

      1161
      against betting on racecourses? He had a distinct objection to saying even by implication that a thing was right on a racecourse but wrong in the streets.
      *MR. GLADSTONEsaid he would leave the matter to the House.
      MR. SHACKLETONsaid it appeared to him that the point they were missing was that the avowed object was to get rid of the professional bookmaker who took money from the State and gave nothing to the State back again. Taking the right hon. Gentleman's own version, a bookmaker might be in the street on Monday taking bets and he would be liable under this Act, but on Tuesday he might go on the racecourse where he would be absolutely free to bet. He did not see why they should prevent betting in the streets and legalise it on the racecourse. He thought the Home Secretary had taken a wise course by leaving the question to the House.
      *MR. H. H. MARKSsaid there was one point in connection with this clause to which he desired to allude. The object of the clause was not so much a question of the protection of the rich; it was intended to protect the poor, and more particularly the class of men who were induced to bet 1s. or 6d. in the street on a race which they did not go to see and about which they knew nothing at all. If this clause was allowed to stand, and if an exception was made in favour of the racecourse, the Committee should bear in mind what that meant. If they were serious in their desire to stop the working classes being induced to bet, surely the most effective way was to stop betting altogether, and they could do it by eliminating this clause. It was within the knowledge of everybody who knew anything of the subject that the prices which were the basis of the bets made by the working classes were what were known as starting prices, and that meant the prices which prevailed at the time the horses started. If there was no betting on the racecourses there would be no starting prices and then there could be no street betting. If they
      1162
      loft out this sub-clause they would stop betting at its very foundation.
      MR. CLOUGHsaid he should vote against this clause, because it was class legislation of the worst type. The House of Lords seek to take the mote out of the eye of the working class, whilst they keep the beam in the eye of their own class by carefully preserving the race-courses for their indulgence. To reject this clause at this stage does not necessitate losing the Bill, because the House of Lords frequently reject clauses which are sent up to them by the House of Commons, and we are perfectly within our right by now rejecting a clause in a Bill which has come from them to us.
      SIR E. CARSONsaid he did not think they ought to assume that the House of Lords would at all insist upon this clause. It was plain that the Bill was drawn to put down street betting, but if there was a general expression of opinion that the Bill ought to be made wider in its scope he did not think it was fair to assume that the House of Lords would not adopt the measure in its wider form.
      MR. CHARLES CRAIGsaid that anything more ridiculous for the House to do than to strike out this clause he had never heard. The Bill was intended to deal with street betting, and this kind of betting was as different from betting on the racecourse as black was from white. It was now proposed to extend the Bill in a way that was never intended, and to place the onus on the House of Lords. The measure dealt with an admitted evil, and to say that they should include betting of all sorts would be a very injudicious course to pursue. He suggested that the Bill should be allowed to pass as it was because it struck at a very serious evil. Nobody had made a case beyond a sentimental one for the proposition which had been made. If this Bill passed there would be no street betting, and when street betting disappeared hon. Members would have carried out what they intended by this Act.
      LORD BALCARRESsaid he gathered that the opinion of the Committee was

      1163
      against this clause. He did not take that view, and he rose to ask the Home Secretary if this clause was thrown out to postpone the Report stage.
      THE CHAIRMAN: I think a question of that kind should be brought on later.
      LORD BALCARRESsaid that if they left out Clause 2 they would make it a fresh Bill altogether. The most sanguine supporter of the Bill could not claim any mandate to suppress betting altogether in Great Britain. Therefore they ought to pause before they dropped this subsection. If they stopped betting in the street they should also stop betting by telegraph, and that alone would cost the country £250,000 a year. If they made betting illegal it did not follow that they would stop betting. He hoped the Home Secretary would at least consent, in view of the enormous change which would be made by this proposal in the whole scope of the Bill, to postpone this question until the Report stage.
      MR. J. W. WILSONsaid that upon street betting the opinion of the country was ripe for legislation, but not one hon. Member had advocated at the election the putting down of race meetings.
      MR. BOTTOMLEYsaid that as one who did go to race meetings he wished to point out that there were two kinds of racecourses, those which were known as enclosed and those which were open. If this clause were omitted it would still be possible for anybody who went to Kempton Park races to be entirely outside the scope of the Bill, whereas at Epsom, on Derby Day, the Bill would not prevent the working man indulging in a little betting. He hoped the operation of this Act would be confined to street betting.
      MR. CROSSLEYsaid he was anxious that street betting should be put down. All employers of labour must know what a nuisance this street betting was. Not long ago a poor widow told him that a bookmaker was hanging about his works, inducing boys to bet. He would prefer to carry a
      1164
      measure suppressing street betting rather than risk the chance of dealing with this question altogether by accepting the proposal before the House.
      THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. THOMAS SHAW,said he was very anxious that this Bill should pass into law this session, and if possible this month. The proposal had been made that this clause should be omitted. He should deplore that extremely. There was no doubt whatever that if that course were taken this Bill would not see the Statute-book until October, and that would be a great calamity. The urgency for this Bill was great. They were legislating not for the whole of the betting evil in the country—he wished they were —but for betting in its most acute and urgent form.
      MR. DICKINSONsaid this clause placed on the Statute-book words which recognised racecourses as places suitable for betting. That made him and some others hesitate about giving it support. He hoped the Government would not force them into the position of recognising betting upon race-courses in that way.
      MR. ARTHUR HENDERSONsaid that every night in order to expedite legislation in these late discussions they were asked to water down measures containing important principles which some of them had taken an active part in advocating in the country. He thought they would, do better to delay for a few months, or Bill another session, legislation on some of these great questions, in order to get something that would effectively deal with the evils. What he and those associated with him had to guard against was the creation of a suspicion that they were seeking in this case to put down an evil by which the working classes were very much touched, while permitting the evil to exist so far as their so-called social superiors were concerned. They had been told repeatedly by the Home Secretary that the object of the measure was to get at the professional bookmaker. Did they only want to get

      1165
      at the professional bookmaker in the public thoroughfare on Monday, and leave him absolutely free to go to the racecourse on Tuesday? If betting was wrong in the one case, he did not think this House should give its approval to betting in the other. They must guard against the impression that they were guilty in this House of promoting class legislation. The front Ministerial Bench was divided on this question. [An HON. MEMBER: No.] He said "Yes." the Home Secretary left this question open to the House, and the Lord Advocate solemnly appealed to them to take a particular course.
      MR. THOMAS SHAWsaid he did not presume to interfere with what was said by his right hon. friend, but the interests of the Bill were to him very sacred. He had pointed out what might happen if this Amendment were carried, and he was within his rights in doing that.
      MR. ARTHUR HENDERSONsaid he was not disputing the rights of the Lord Advocate.
      *MR. HERBERT GLADSTONE: That is not in the least inconsistent.
      MR. ARTHUR HENDERSONsaid he had not stated that it was inconsistent. The right hon. Gentleman said he was prepared to leave the question open, and then the Lord Advocate made an earnest appeal to the Committee to leave the clause in the Bill. He thought he was right in saying that there was a division of opinion on the front bench. He hoped the Committee would reject the clause.
      MR. A. E. W. MASONsaid that, although he had every sympathy with the object of the hon. Member for Barnard Castle, he did not think the leaving out of the sub-section would have the effect he supposed, for it would still be limited by the definition of "public place" as including "any public park, garden, or sea beach, and any unenclosed ground to which the public for the time being have unrestricted access." So far as he knew there were only two
      1166
      racecourses in England to which the public had unrestricted access. To his mind the question opened up was too wide to be settled at that hour of the morning.
      *MR. BERTRAMsaid he entirely sympathised with the hon. Gentleman in saying that the Party to which he belonged would be made thoroughly unpopular in the country by this kind of legislation. He recognised that there was a difference between a man making a bet on an event which he saw, and making a bet at a street corner on an event which he could not see. The hon. Member for Barnard Castle talked about watering down the measure; but the omission of the Clause would vastly enlarge the scope of the Bill, which was only meant to put down betting at street corners; and it would be very unwise to risk the Bill by insisting on Amendments which would be refused in another place, and which would have a far greater effect than this Bill was ever intended to have. He should vote for the retention of the Clause.
      *MR. GIBBSsaid that the Bill was directed against bookmakers who made bets at street corners with poor people; and if the clause under discussion was omitted it would not be legislating in the interests of the poor. They were dealing with the case where the bookmaker came to the people, and not where, as on Epsom Downs, the people went to the bookmaker.
      MR. ESSEXasked whether the clause gave additional sanction to betting on racecourses. If it did strengthen the right to bet on racecourses he would vote against it.
      VISCOUNT MORPETHsaid that an hon. Gentleman on the Ministerial side was afraid that the popularity of the Government would be weakened if any attempt at legislation were made without a mandate from the country. If he thought this clause would make the Government unpopular it would be an inducement to some hon. Members on the Opposition side of the House to vote for it. Almost every Member who had supported the

      1167
      Bill had declined again and again that this was a class measure and was intended to prevent a poor man putting a shilling on a horse on a race, but would not prevent the wealthy man from betting his £50 or £100. The first thing this democratic Government did was, instead of protecting the mill hand and other members of the working class, to introduce a piece of class legislation.
      MR. RICHARDSONbore testimony to the mischief which the street betting carried on by the bookmaker with men, women, and children wrought, and said that although it might make him unpopular with some of his constituents for a time, as the result of a choice of evils he intended to vote for this clause. He would leave the question to the common sense of the working men later on.
      MR. T. M. HEALYsaid it was an extraordinary fact that this Bill was brought forward to defend a child from
      betting anywhere except on a racecourse. Formerly there was a right of sanctuary in this country, but it was confined to cathedrals, but now the right of sanctuary was only to be found upon a gambling ground. It was said that the Government would be unpopular if the Bill were passed, but at all events it could not be accused of not having the courage of its convictions, although it might be considered hypocritical, as this was the first time that it had been laid down that a racecourse was a sacred place.
      MR. J. M. ROBERTSONsaid it was idle to legislate in advance of public opinion, and if they tried to put down betting on a racecourse the Act would be a dead letter.
      The Committee divided:—Ayes, 77 Noes 69. (Division List No. 299.)

      AYES.

      Acland, Francis Dyke

      Forster, Henry William

      Raphael, Herbert H.

      Allen,A.Acland (Christchurch

      Fuller, John Michael F.

      Rees, J. D.

      Balcarres, Lord

      Fullerton, Hugh

      Rendall, Athelstan

      Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

      Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

      Richardson, A.

      Barran, Rowland Hirst

      Gladstone,Rt.HnHerbertJohn

      Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

      Beach, Hn.MichaelHughHicks

      Haworth, Arthur A.

      Rose, Charles Day

      Beale, W. P.

      Hayden, John Patrick

      Runciman, Walter

      Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

      Illingworth, Percy H.

      Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

      Benn, W.(T'w'rHamlets,S.Geo.

      Jones, William(Carnarvonshire)

      Shaw,Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.

      Bertram, Julius

      Kearley, Hudson E.

      Shipman, Dr. John G.

      Billson, Alfred

      Levy, Maurice

      Simon, John Allsebrook

      Bottomley, Horatio

      Lewis, John Herbert

      Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

      Bridgeman, W. Clive

      Lyell, Charles Henry

      Stanley,Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

      Bryce, J. A. (InvernessBurghs)

      MacVeigh,Charles(Donegal,E.

      Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

      Carr-Gomm, H. W.

      M'Kenna, Reginald

      Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

      Cawley, Frederick

      Marks, G.Croydon(Launceston

      Stuart, James (Sunderland)

      Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

      Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

      Thompson,J.W.H.(Somerset,E.

      Cobbold, Felix Thornley

      Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

      Ure, Alexander

      Corbett,CH.(Sussex,E.Grinst'd

      Morse, L. L.

      Ward,W.Dudley(Southampt'n

      Craig,CharlesCurtis(Antrim,S.

      Nicholls, George

      Watt, H. Anderson

      Crossley, William J.

      Norton, Capt. Cecil William

      Wilkie, Alexander

      Duckworth, James

      Nuttall, Harry

      Wilson.Henry J. (York,W.R.)

      Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

      O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

      Winfrey, R.

      Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

      O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

      Elibank, Master of

      Paulton, James Mellor

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

      Ferens, T. R.

      Pease,.J. A. (Saffron Walden)

      J. W. Wilson and Mr. John

      Flavin, Michael Joseph

      Philipps,Col.Ivor(S'thampton

      Robertson.

      NOES.

      Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

      Bowles, G. Stewart

      Byles, William Pollard

      Barnard, E. B.

      Brooke, Stopford

      Channing, Francis Allston

      Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire)

      Brunner, J.F.L.(Lancs.,Leigh)

      Clancy, John Joseph

      Clough, W.

      Johnson, John (Gateshead)

      Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

      Collins,SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,W.

      Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

      Scott,A.H(Ashton-under-Lyne

      Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

      Lamont, Norman

      Seely, Major J. B.

      Cory, Clifford John

      Lever, A. Levy(Essex,Harwich

      Shackleton, David James

      Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

      Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

      Silcock, Thomas Ball

      Cullinan, J.

      MacVeagh,Jeremiah (Down, S.)

      Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

      Dickinson, W.H.(St.Pancras,N

      M'Killop. W.

      Sullivan, Donal

      Dobson, Thomas W.

      Marks, H. H. (Kent)

      Sutherland, J. E.

      Essex, R. W.

      Mond, A

      Taylor, John W. (Durham)

      Everett, R. Lacey

      Montagu, E. S.

      Tennant,Sir Edward(Salisbury)

      Fenwick, Charles

      Montgomery, H. G.

      Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark

      Ffrench, Peter

      Morpeth, Viscount

      Verney, F. W.

      Gill, A. H

      Murphy, John

      Waterlow, D. S.

      Glover, Thomas

      Nolan, Joseph

      White, George (Norfolk)

      Goddard, Daniel Ford

      O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid)

      White, Patrick (Meath,North)

      Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

      O'Malley, William

      Whiteley,George (York,W. R.)

      Hay, Hon. Claude George

      O'Mara, James

      Hazleton, Richard

      Paul, Herbert

      TELLERS FOK THE NOES—Mr.

      Healy, Timothy Michael

      Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

      Arthur Henderson and Mr.

      Higham, John Sharp

      Price, C. B. (Edinb'gh, Central)

      Ramsay Macdonald.

      Hyde, Clarendon

      Rickett, J. Compton

      Jenkins, J.

      Russell, T. W.

      Resolution agreed to.

      MR. LUPTONmoved to report progress.
      THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMANsaid the rule was suspended in order to get through business.
      Clause 3:—
      Mr. THOMAS SHAWsaid Scotland was very much interested in this matter of street betting. In Scotland there was a system of houses—of flat tenements approached by a passage or a common stair. The passage and common stair had been found to be a very convenient situation for bookmakers to take up a position in. They stood in one of these passages during the dinner hour when the working men were coming home to their meal, and there was an instance where a bookmaker induced in thirty minutes fifteen men to make bets with him. In 1903 there was a decision in Scotland which held that a passage or common stair was not a place within the meaning of the Act. He begged to move an Amendment to deal with this point.
      Amendment proposed—
      "In page 2, line 20, at end, to add the words and "passage" Includes common close or common stair or passage leading thereto; and, in the event of an offender failing to make payment of a fine imposed under Section 1, (1), (a) or (b) of this Act, he shall be liable to
      1170
      imprisonment in accordance with the provisions of the Summary Jurisdiction Acts.'"—(Mr. Thomas Shaw.)
      Question proposed, 'That those words be there added."
      MR. MITCHELL-THOMSONentirely agreed with what had been said by the right hon. Gentleman. All he desired to know was whether under the Summary Jurisdiction Act in England imprisonment was contemplated, because if so he thought Scotland should be placed on an equality in that regard.
      MR. THOMAS SHAWsaid he believed that was so.
      MR. THOMAS SHAWsaid he hoped the Committee would permit him to add the following words, which he thought were necessary—
      " Any offence under this Act may be tried before the Sheriff Court. "
      Amendment agreed to.
      Clause 3 amended, and agreed to.
      Clause 4 agreed to.
      Bill reported, with Amendments; as amended, to be considered To-morrow.

      CENSUS OF PRODUCTION BILL.
      Order for SECOND READING read.
      Proposition made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
      LORD BALCARRESthought that Parliament ought to settle generally within certain limits how often this census should take place. What he wished to refer to more particularly were the last words of Clause 3 under which forms had to be prepared to give particulars with respect to production. The words of the clause were very wide indeed, and people did not like to give to Government Departments the whole particulars in a great many industrial occupations. He was aware that it was done in agriculture, but that was a very open industry and it differed entirely from the secret processes of manufacture which came under this Bill. There was the Wireless Telegraphy Act which he would give as an instance. Under that Act nobody might practice wireless telegraphy without a licence from the Postmaster-General. The result of that was that people preferred to run the risk of the penalities in some instances rather than allow the officials of a Public Department to know the secrets of their business. In this case there were certain applications of what were known as chemical physics which were extremely precious and which it was quite unnecessary that a Government Department should investigate. If the compiling of these returns was carried out in any hostile or inquisitorial spirit the value of them would be absolutely nil. As the object of this Bill was purely statistical the measure ought not to be put in this general form. It was like the ordinary Board of Trade Return, but it was placed in a more extended form and in carrying it out he trusted the President
      1172
      of the Board of Trade would not keep it in such a vague and extended form because that might defeat the object he had in view. There was a great deal of anxiety about this Bill in industries which were now in their infancy. There was one particular company which was doing much useful work in the development of wireless telegraphy, and he was sure they would suffer all the penalites rather than make returns about their business. He would suggest that the Bill should be referred to a Select Committee.
      MR. STUARTsaid he hardly needed to say anything but ditto to what the noble Lord had said. The object of the Bill was to obtain statistical information as to the course of trade apart from exports and imports. There were many details that did not come under the statistics required. He desired to second the appeal which had been made by the noble Lord that this Bill before it became law should go before a Select Committee. He thought that would calm the fears which some of them felt and he hoped that course would be taken by the Government.
      MR. T. M. HBALYregarded this Bill as a great invasion of public liberty. There was no necessity for it and no case had been made out for it, and it was a deplorable thing that such a Bill should come on during the dying hours of the session. He regretted that this Bill should have been moved without a word of explanation from the Board of Trade or any indication of the nature of its provisions showed the extraordinary state of things which, the House of Commons could come to during the hot weather of the month of August. Supposing the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham had been President of the Board of

      1173
      Trade and by a measure of this sort he had got into his hands the possibility of prying into the secrets of the trade and commerce of the men of Birmingham. What would have been said about it by hon. Gentlemen opposite? Where was the necessity for this and where was the demand for it? They were simply sacrificing their liberty to a gang of clerks in Downing Street. Every plumber or every man who was employed upon a building job would be expected, under this Bill, to spend hours making a public return or run the risk of being fined £10. Who wanted this return? They were told that manufacturers were flourishing and that free trade was triumphant all over the land. This was an extraordinary illustration of the use the Government were making of their power to compel every man to make a return of his business. This Bill lent itself to oppression of every kind. The Government if they could save a single farthing on any orders would send their orders to Germany instead of to Ireland; would the Government send an inspector to Ireland to ascertain why Irish industries were languishing?
      THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OP TRADE (Mr. LLOYD-GEOKGE,assured the hon. and learned Gentleman that it was not the case that he did not wish to defend the measure. The hon. and learned Gentleman was not correct in saying that there was no demand for the Bill. The Chambers of Commerce had passed a unanimous resolution in favour of an inquiry of this character. When the Bill was first introduced there was no voice raised against it, but the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham got up and supported it, expressing the hope that
      1174
      it would be passed this session. His hon. and learned friend had rather exaggerated the dangers of the Bill; he said bids was an experiment which had not been tried anywhere before. As a matter of fact this was a system which had been in operation in the United States for fifty rears. It had been exceedingly successful there. In Australia a similar Bill had been passed. He thought it would be desirable before the Bill passed the House of Commons that the rules to be prescribed should be laid on the Table if the House, so that anyone would have the opportunity of scrutinising them and moving the excision of any particular part of them. He had received a deputation of traders who expressed the wish that the clause should be modified, and he was able to remove their apprehensions. What he proposed to do was, under the general powers taken in the Bill, to set up a Committee representing trades and industries for the purpose of settling; these forms. He thought that would be much better than the appointment of a Select Committee of the House of Commons. The Committee would take into account all the points raised by the hon. Members who had taken part in this discussion. The noble Lord had expressed anxiety lest secret processes should be divulged. He could not imagine that any Committee of that character would frame regulations in such a way as to invite traders to divulge their secret processes to any Government Department. What they wanted, to know was the aggregate of the home trade. They knew the export trade in the details divulged to the Customs. At present their information with regard to home trade was more or less a matter of conjecture. While one man would say that it was £800,000,000, another would

      1175
      say that it was £1,500,000,000 what they wanted was to ascertain the actual facts in regard to our industries from decade to decade. Hon. Members might rest assured that there was no desire to have an inquisition of any sort into the trade of any man.
      LORD BALCARRESasked whether the right hon. Gentleman would consider the propriety of making the Committee statutory.
      MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he was prepared to consider that suggestion.
      MR. JOHN O'CONNORsaid he had heard some objections stated by an hon. Member to the proposal in the Bill to obtain returns in regard to the various trades of the country. The right hon. Gentleman boasted of his ignorance of figures; but that was one of the exaggerated statements which the right hon. Gentleman made when he wanted to score a point. He himself was rather fond of figures both for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and he hoped that the President of the Board of Trade would get all the statistics possible, and have hem arranged in an admirable manner. A short time ago he had received a most interesting return on all the industries in the State of Massachusetts which he would be glad to put into the hands of the right hon. Gentleman. Complaint had been made about the want of statistics of the trade of Ireland. It was true that the trade of Ireland had been practically wiped out more than a century ago, and that they did not know much about it. They were short of official statistics both under the old Irish Parliament and since the Union.

      PUBLIC WORKS LOANS (REPAYMENT)
      Resolution reported:
      "That it is expedient to authorise the extension of time for the repayment of a loan made by the Public Works Loan Commissioners to the South Staffordshire Mines Drainage Commissioners in pursuance of any Act of the present Session, to grant money for the purpose of certain Local Loans out of the Local Loans Fund and for other purposes relating to Local Loans."

      LABOURERS (IRELAND) BILL.
      Reasons for disagreeing to Lords' Amendments reported and agreed to.
      To be communicated to the Lords.

      MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
      That they have agreed to: Marriage with Foreigners Bill; Statute Law Revision (Scotland) Bill, with Amendments.
      Whereupon Mr. Deputy Speaker adjourned the House without Question put pursuant to the Order of the House of the 13th July last.
      Adjourned at a quarter after Two o'clock a.m.