§ Order read, for Further Consideration of Second Resolution, "That a sum, not exceeding £4,630,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge for Supplies and Clothing, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1906."
§ *SIR CHARLES DILKE (Gloucestershire, Forest of Dean)said he desired to call attention to certain matters connected with the Army Clothing Factory at Pimlico. It was not his intention to go into the case of wages, piece-work, pay, or any of the labour conditions in the ordinary sense of the word, which had sometimes been raised on this Vote, and his reason for avoiding that class of subjects was that 1811 it was absolutely impossible to make them plain to the House of Commons owing to their technical character. There was a very simple mode of treating them, however, which was that the heads of the departments should take council freely, in the same way as ordinary employers, with the persons in their employ; that they should meet them freely and fairly, hear what they had to say, and thus become acquainted with all their demands. Although he was favourable to the Government manufacturing their own materials in this way, he was not favourable to the Army manufacturer. He did not believe that the heads of these departments should be soldiers, but civilians. He doubted the wisdom of making the soldier make his own clothes. Very often the soldiers placed at the head of these establishments had not the knowledge of the ordinary methods of dealing with labour which the private employer possessed. Two years previously that question was raised by the hon. Member for Clitheroe. At that time friction had arisen between the head of the Manufacturing Department, who was a soldier, and the workpeople and a petition had been refused by him on some rather pedantic ground. At the end of the wrangle, which lasted some time, it was suggested that the civilian Ministers responsible to this House might possibly receive the deputation which the military head of the factory had declined to receive and hear what the facts were. Through the good offices of the present Postmaster-General that deputation was received, not only by the Financial Secretary to the War Office, but by the Secretary of State, and a great deal of good was done thereby. At the present time there was a difficulty with regard to Particulars, or, in other words, the basis upon which the actual wages of the workpeople were earned—a principle which originally existed in Lancashire, but which had extended first to Yorkshire, and now to all places where labour of this kind was employed. He thought it would be an advantageous thing if the civilian Ministers in this House would receive those officials who represented the workpeople and who were able to speak for them upon this matter.
1812 He moved the reduction to-day, however, on the ground of other conditions of labour which obtained at the Army Clothing Factory at Pimlico. A year ago he had a controversy with the newly-appointed Financial Secretary with regard to the ventilation and undue heat prevailing in these works. There had been the death of a girl named Alice Wright, and the death had drawn a good deal of attention to the condition of the works. Although at the inquest it was found that Alice Wright did not die of the effects of heat, but of a weak heart, it was brought out in evidence that a greater number of women fainted under the conditions of heat prevailing in that factory than in similar factories of private firms. It was impossible to produce a private workshop in which the percentage of women fainting at their work was as high as at the Army Clothing Works at Pimlico. He thanked the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State, or the Army Council, or whoever might be responsible, for having at last called in the aid of the women inspectors of the Home Office in regard to this matter, a thing which had been urged by hon. Members and those who thought with hon. Members for years. There could be no doubt whatever that they were the proper persons to advise the Government in a case of works of this kind where a large number of women were employed. The reports of these women inspectors should now be made public and the Government should tell the House whether they now proposed to carry out the recommendations which had been made in those reports. A very deplorable state of things still existed at the Pimlico works. The water poured through the roof and the heat during some periods of the year was excessive. There was undoubtedly a very great deficiency in the number of pressing irons, and the result was that the women were forced to wait in the gallery where these pressing irons were heated and where the heat was exceedingly great, and it was in that gallery where most of the fainting had occurred. The conditions also of the large pressing room continued to be exceedingly bad, and in some parts of the building there was a total want of ventilation. It was principally to give 1813 the hon. Gentleman an opportunity of telling the House what the reports of the women inspectors were and what he hoped to be able to do as a result of those reports that he moved to reduce this Vote by the sum of £200.
§
Amendment proposed—
To leave out '£4,630,000,' and insert £4,629,800.'"—(Sir Charles Dilke.)
§ Question proposed, "That '£4,630,000' stand part of the said Resolution."
MR. SHAGKLETON (Lancashire, Clitheroe)suggested that the paid officials of the organisation to which the workmen in the Army Clothing Factory belonged should be allowed to approach the heads of the factory on questions of pay and labour. He said he had for the past twenty-five years taken an official part in one of the largest organisations of pieceworkers, numbering something like 100,000 people, and had hid a good deal to do with the calculation of prices. Not one in 2,000 persons engaged in cotton weaving could calculate their own prices, and the difficulty of an outsider understanding how to work out the prices was therefore obvious. In Lancashire the calculations had to be done by paid officials who had received a special training. The officials of whom he spoke were the proper men to calculate the piece-work, and if they were allowed to do it much of the grumbling that was now heard would cease. The Government once a year received the Parliamentary Committee of the Trades Union Congress in order that the complaints of the workers might be laid before them, and that being the case surely it was not too much to ask them to concede a minor point by receiving the men appointed by the workers in the Government workshops for the purpose of hearing their grievances. The longer he was in the House the more he felt that that was a true solution of the difficulty, and would obviate the necessity of many of the discussions there. He was glad that lady inspectors were allowed to visit the factories, but it was important that they should be allowed to go there when they pleased and not simply at the will of the officials. Ventilation, too, was important. In all Government factories 1814 there should be some approach to the standard for purity of air that obtained in the weaving sheds, where the system of ventilation gave nearly 3,000 cubic foot of air to each person.
§ MR. CROOKS (Woolwich)complained that the practice had lately grown up of having officers' uniforms made at Pimlico and of bringing in Array pensioners to do the work, to the detriment of the skilled tailoresses who might do it. He also called attention to the insufficient wages paid to some of the unskilled labourers in the Government clothing factories.
*THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR OFFICE (Mr. BROMLEY DAVENPORT)said that the hon. Member for Woolwich was under a misapprehension as to the making of uniforms. Certain coats were made in the factories by men taken in for the purpose of qualifying as Army master tailors. They were skilled tailors and remained in the Clothing Department some eighteen months to obtain a certificate. From time to time the opportunity occurred in the factory of undertaking special work which women were unable to do, and which no one in the factory but those skilled tailors could do. They were put on what had been erroneously called the outdoor staff. The outdoor staff did exist, but only to this extent, that under certain conditions they were allowed, as a special indulgence, to have certain work to do at home. He was sure that the hon. Member opposite would approve of that practice. That was the outdoor staff, and there was no other. He thought the hon. Member would agree that at any rate there was no grievance in this particular case.
With regard to the speech of the right hon. Baronet opposite, there was no man in the country or in this House who more thoroughly understood this subject than he did. He had for over thirty years past interested himself in the Royal Army Clothing Department, and he had, on many occasions, found fault where fault was to be found, and he had pointed out shortcomings wherever he felt that they existed. He was glad to 1815 gather from what he had said upon this occasion a sort of qualified approval at any rate of what had been done during the past twelve months to meet same of the objections to which he had referred. He had hoped for a more cordial expression of approval, because for the past twelve months every possible effort had been made to do all that was necessary to see that the workpeople in the Pimlico factory worked under proper conditions of sanitation, ventilation, and comfort, as well as receiving fair rates of wages. He did not believe that there was a better ventilated or more healthy factory in the country than that at Pimlico. The hon. Member for Clitheroe had seen many factories in his own county, and he invited him to go and see this factory at Pimlico. He could assure him that he would be most cordially welcomed, and if, with his great experience, he could make any suggestions they would receive the most careful consideration.
§ MR. SHACKLETONCan we have the inspectors' reports?
§ *MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORTsaid that at the present moment he was dealing with the hon. Member's argument that the factory at Pimlico was badly lighted and unhealthy. He could assure the hon. Member that there was not a finer equipped factory in the country. There were about 600 people working on one floor, and he defied anyone to see them at work without coming to the conclusion that they were working happily and contentedly. If they considered the conditions under which those people would have to work upon similar employment in other factories then there was no comparison either in regard to the conditions or the wages they would receive. The right hon. Baronet had told them a story about a large number of women fainting. Of course women fainted in other places besides factories, but he denied that a larger percentage fainted in the factory at Pimlico than in other factories, and he repudiated the suggestion that they fainted because of the condition of air in that factory. It was incorrect to say that the girl whose death had been mentioned had died in consequence of the condition of the atmosphere. 1816 The doctor at the inquest gave evidence to the effect that the girl was unfitted for any employment at all. It would have been a hard measure to get rid of her for that reason, and she had not been sent about her business. The atmosphere had been tested by a Home Office official, and it was found that the factory was thoroughly well ventilated. Factory inspectors had been invited to visit the factory, not on special days or at set hours, but when they pleased. Their visits this year had resulted in no complaint of any kind. That was all he had to say upon that point.
The right hon. Baronet had objected to the system and principle upon which the rates of remuneration were fixed, which he said was unsatisfactory and unfair.
§ *SIR CHARLES DILKEI did not allege that. What I said was that there appeared to be some difficulty about allowing the workpeople to be represented by a deputation.
§ MR. SHACKLETONThe point is that any settlement of a dispute about wages is best effected through the officials of the workpeople's trades unions.
§ *MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORTsaid that any representations of the workpeople as to grievances would always be most carefully considered, but he could not assent to the proposition that any outside body should be permitted to intervene between the workpeople and the superintendent. He bad a great respect for the trades unions, but he believed that it was not in the interest of the workpeople or of their employers to permit the intervention of an outside body.
§ MR. SHACKLETONBut in this case it is their own union.
§ *MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORTsaid the workpeople could represent their grievances through the proper channel, and they could come to the highest authority and have their complaints considered.
§ MR. SHACKLETONAm I to understand that the hon. Member objects to a trades union choosing their own representative to place their grievances before the heads of the department?
§ *MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORTNo. What he did object to was that representative should be chosen by anybody but those concerned in the grievance, and that the statement of the grievance should be put forward by anybody except those concerned in it. If there were a grievance the person concerned in it should state it themselves or by deputation. He did not say that there were no circumstances an conditions under which a trades union other than the union of those employed in a factory could approach his right hon. friend. He did not lay down that proposition. As the hon. Member had stated, his right hon. friend was going to receive a trades unionist deputation in a few days. If there happened to be any large question affecting wages generally he was quite sure that his right hon. friend would not object to receiving representatives from any authoritative trades union.
§ MR. SHACKLETONLet us understand clearly where we are. What we ask for is that the workmen and the workwomen in the employ of the Government at this factory shall be allowed to choose their own official, who need not be a worker in that factory, but who may understand the case as well as he workpeople themselves.
§ *MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORTI quite understand what the hon. Member means.
§ MR. SHACKLETONBut do you admit that right?
§ MR. SHACKLETONThen you do not admit one of the first principles of trades unionism.
§ *MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORTsaid he did not admit that it was a desirable thing to allow the men and women workpeople in Government employment to 1818 choose the officials of a trade union, who might not be workers in a Government department, to represent their grievances. Some of the women in this factory were receiving 32s. a week, and their average wage was over 20s. In conclusion, he had only to say that they welcomed any suggestion which was for the improvement of the factory. They had no object except to do the very best they could for the factory and those engaged in it. He invited the right hon. Baronet and other Members who wished it to go and see the factory for themselves, and he was convinced they would agree that it was one of the best factories in the United Kingdom.
SIR WALTER FOSTER (Derbyshire, Ilkeston)asked if there would be any objection to placing the report which the inspectors made to the Home Office before the House when it was received, because then they would know exactly the conditions reported upon, and they would be able to form their own conclusions.
§ *MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORTI would welcome that course, but it is evident that I cannot commit the Home Secretary in this matter. I have never seen this report or heard anything of it, and still less have I heard of any complaint. I cannot pledge my right hon. friend in the matter, but if there be such a report I have no objection whatever to the course suggested.
§ MR. THEODORE TAYLOR (Lancashire, Radcliffe)said he had had a great deal to do with the trades unions and he quite understood and sympathised with the desire of every employer to be spoken to by his employees without the intervention of any one outside. But where large numbers were employed it was evident that there were those who thought their personal relationship with their employer would be affected and prejudiced if they made individual complaints, however justifiable their complaints might be. These suspicions were enough to make them choose somebody outside, such as the trades unions, to represent them. Employers of labour in the House must admit that where large bodies of workmen were employed it was 1819 expedient in the interests of the workers that they should choose their own representatives. If a private employer recognised this why should not the Government recognise it? Why should the Government be the one exception in the country? What reason of public policy was there that this elementary right of trade unionists should be denied to Government employees? It could not be for electioneering purposes. Electioneering reasons and political pressure could be brought to be r entirely apart from this Everybody who knew anything about, trades, unions in this country knew that one of their elementary rights was to claim, and properly so to negotiate through their own representatives in all disputes with their employers. He thought the Government was very badly advised indeed to continue to resist this elementary right of trades unionists of the country.
§ MR. BELLsaid he could not allow the remarks of the Financial Secretary to pass without making some protest. He had always regarded the Government as a body who ought to set a fair and good example to all employers of labour in the country. But by the right hon. Gentleman's remarks it was shown to be far and away behind most employers in the country. The right hon. Gentleman had said he had no objection to trades unions. In fact, he respected them; but it was only a farce to suggest anything of the kind when he declined to have anything to do with their representatives. No one would have objections to trades unions if they had regard to the functions for which they existed. He had been a trades unionist for twenty-seven years, and he was glad to say he found employers in the country of quite a different opinion from that of the hon. Member opposite. He had within the last two or three weeks been sent for by employers, which showed that the employers desired rather to deal with the representative of the men than with the men themselves. The right hon. Gentleman had not convinced him that if employees of the Government put forward their own cases they would not be subject to victimisation. They had seen too many instances of the kind to believe any such statement. He did not suggest 1820 that the heads of the Government Departments would countenance such a thing, but there were too many officials between them and the workmen, and those officials were the people to find paltry and insignificant excuses to get rid of the employees if they dared to make complaints. He protested against the attitude of the hon. Gentleman in declining on behalf of the Government to discuss with or receive the official representatives of those people. If the hon. Gentleman found himself in any Court he would engage the best counsel he could get to state his case. What was good for him was good for the workmen. The workmen had a perfect right to engage whom they thought proper to represent them in any questions between them and their employers. If the right hon. Gentleman was to press this on the lines he had taken up he would press it to an absurdity, because the taxpayers were the real employers and the workmen would then negotiate with their employers—the taxpayers—direct. The hon. Gentleman was simply the agent of the taxpayers in the office he held, and the employees, he submitted, had the same right to appoint their agent. The attitude of the hon. Gentleman would create a good deal of disaffection amongst the employees for which he would be responsible after his observations that night.
§ MR. BENN (Devonport)took exception to the remarks which had fallen from the Financial Secretary to the War Office with reference to the relations between the War Office and their employees in the clothing factories. To say that those who served the Government in the humblest walks of lie and who were unable to voice their grievances were to be debarred from employing somebody else to state their case was one of the most monstrous things he had heard in the House of Commons. He was sure the statement must have arisen from want either of experience or of information. On the London County Council it was found extremely convenient to have the case stated by those who had time and ability to put it in the briefest and most practical form, and, in the light of such experience, he hoped the hon. Member opposite would reconsider his decision and allay 1821 the dissatisfaction which his policy must cause. He spoke as representing a constituency with a very large number of Civil servants, and it would be a very great grief to them to hear that their grievances were only to be put forward by those immediately concerned in any workshop or factory. He hoped this policy would be reconsidered at the earliest possible moment.
§ MR. CAWLEY (Lancashire, Prestwich)said that in the case of piecework, the piece-worker was not allowed to get assistance to see whether the piecework he was working on was right or not. If a piece-worker was dissatisfied, and was not able to get somebody in whom he had confidence to advise him, there would never be any content in the Government factories. The Financial
§ Secretary had not given any answer to the argument of the hon. Member for Clitheroe. He thought they ought to allow some outside assistance to these people, who were not either accountants or auditors. They ought to have some one chosen by themselves in have some one chosen by themselves in whom they had confidence. He thought they ought to have the factory inspector's report. They wanted the report that was furnished to the Home Office. He thought it ought to have been furnished to the War Office. He considered that the House was entitled to a copy of it, and he hoped they would have it.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 176; Noes, 137. (Division list No. 94.)
1823| AYES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Dickinson, Robert, Edmond | Jessel, Captain Herb. Merton |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Dickson, Charles Scott | Kenyon. Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph C | Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W |
| Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn Hugh O | Dorington, Rt Hn. Sir John E. | King, Sir Henry Seymour |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Doughty, Sir George | Knowles, Sir Lees |
| Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H | Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers- | Lambton, Hn. Frederick Wm. |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Laurie, Lieut.-General |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Duke, Henry Edward | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Fardell, Sir T. George | Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th |
| Balcarres Lord | Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool |
| Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds | Fergusson, Rt. Hn Sir J (Manc'r) | Lawson, Hn. H. L W (Mile End |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Lawson, John Grant (YorksN. R |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Finch, Rt. Hn. George H. | Lee, Arthur H (Hants Fareham) |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Finlay, Sir R. B (Inv'rn'ss B'ghs | Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Fisher, William Hayes | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Flower, Sir Ernest | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S |
| Bigwood, James | Forster, Henry William | Llewellyn, Evan Henry |
| Bingham, Lord | Foster, Philip S (Warwick, S. W. | Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Gardner, Ernest | Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham |
| Bond, Edward | Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S |
| Brassey, Albert | Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn | Lonsdale, John Brownlee |
| Brodriek, Rt. Hn. St. John | Gore, Hn. S. F. Ormsby | Loyd, Archie Kirkman |
| Bull, William James | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth |
| Campbell, J. H M (Dublin Univ. | Graham, Henry Robert | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred |
| Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H. | Gretton, John | Macdona, John Cumming |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire | Hall, Edward Marshall | MacIver, David (Liverpool) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hambro, Charles Eric | Maconochie, A. W. |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Hamilton. Marq. of (L'nd'nderry | M'Arthur, Chas. (Liverpool) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn J A (Wore | Hare, Thomas Leigh | M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W |
| Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton | Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th | Majendie, James A. H. |
| Chapman, Edward | Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley | Malcolm, Ian |
| Coates, Edward Feetham | Helder, Augustus | Manners, Lord Cecil |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford. W. | Marks, Harry Hananel |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Hickman, Sir Alfred | Martin, Richard Biddulph |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Hoare, Sir Samuel | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. |
| Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Hogg, Lindsay | Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H. E (Wigt'n |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside | Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire |
| Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Hoult, Joseph | Montagu, Hon. J Scott (Hants) |
| Crossley, Rt. Hn. Sir Savile | Howard, J. (Kent, Faversham | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil | Moore, William |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) |
| Davenport, William Bromley | Hunt, Rowland | Morrell, George Herbert |
| Denny, Colonel | Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer |
| Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) | Renwick, George | Vincent, Col Sir C. E H (Sheffield |
| Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. H. |
| Nicholson, William Graham | Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury) | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert | Welby, Lt.-Col A. C E (Taunton |
| Parker, Sir Gilbert | Round, Rt. Hn. James | Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd |
| Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander | Whiteley, H. (Ashton und Lyne |
| Percy, Earl | Scott, Sir S (Marylebone, W.) | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R) |
| Pilkington, Colonel Richard | Sharpe, William Edward T. | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Skewes-Cox, Thomas | Wilson-Todd, Sir W H (Yorks.) |
| Plummer, Sir Walter R. | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Pretyman, Ernest George | Spear, John Ward | Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson |
| Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart | Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H. |
| Randles, John S. | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) | Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong |
| Rankin, Sir James | Tollemache, Henry James | |
| Ratcliff, R. F. | Tomlinson, Sir W. Edw. M. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir |
| Reid, James (Greenock) | Tuff, Charles | Alexander Acland-Hood and |
| Remnant, Jas. Farquharson | Turnour, Viscount | Viscount Valentia. |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.) | Harcourt, Lewis | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Shee, James John |
| Allen, Charles P. | Hayter, Rt Hn Sir Arthur D. | Partington, Oswald |
| Barlow, John Emmott | Helme, Norval Watson | Paulton, James Mellor |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H. | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Hell, Richard | Higham, John Sharpe | Rea, Russell |
| Benn, John Williams | Holland, Sir William Henry | Reddy, M. |
| Black, Alexander William | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | Redmond, J. E. (Waterford) |
| Blake, Edward | Hutchinson, Dr. Chas. Fredk. | Richards, Thos. (W. Monm'th) |
| Boland, John | Jacoby, James Alfred | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Johnson, John | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Brigg, John | Joicey, Sir James | Robson, William Snowdon |
| Bright, Allan Heywood | Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea | Roche, John |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Burke, E. Haviland | Jordan, Jeremiah | Runciman, Walter |
| Burns, John | Joyce, Michael | Russell, T. W. |
| Caldwell, James | Kearley, Hudson E. | Samuel, Herb. L. (Cleveland) |
| Cameron, Robert | Kilbride, Denis | Seely, Maj. J. E B. (Isle of Wigl t |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Kitson, Sir James | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Law, Hugh Alex (Donegal, W.) | Sheeny, David |
| Cawley, Frederick | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Cheetham, John Frederick | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Cogan, Denis J. | Levy, Maurice | Sullivan, Donal |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Lewis, John Herbert | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark | Lough, Thomas | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, F. |
| Cremer, William Randal | Lundon, W. | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr |
| Crombie, John William | Lyell, Charles Henry | Tillett, Louis John |
| Crooks, William | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Tomkinson, James |
| Delany, William | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Toulmin, George |
| Doogan, P. C. | M'Crae, George | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Douglas, Chas. M. (Lanark) | M'Kean, John | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Ellice, Capt E C (S Andr'ws Bghs | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan |
| Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) | Moss, Samuel | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Emmott, Alfred | Moulton, John Fletcher | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas | Murphy, John | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Eve, Harry Trelawney | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Findlay, Alex. (Lanark, N. E.) | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid) | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Wills, Arthur Walters (N Dorset |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Flynn, James Christopher | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W) | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.) |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd |
| Freeman-Thomas, Captain F. | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) | Young, Samuel |
| Gilhooly, James | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | |
| Gladstone, Rt Hn Herbert John | O'Dowd, John | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir |
| Grant, Corrie | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | Charles Dilke and Mr. |
| Hammond, John | O'Malley, William | Shackleton. |
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
1824§ MR. COURTENAY WARNERsaid he wished to call attention to a matter which had already been before the House, and in 1825 regard to which the answers given were not satisfactory, namely, the purchase of 20,000 suits of clothes at 11s. 9d. each by the Clothing Department of the War Office, and the sale of 10,000 at 5s. 6½d., and 10,000 at 5s. 7frac12;d. each. That showed an enormous loss, and the only reason given was that too many suits were bought and that there was no room to store them. It was stated in answer to a Question that the number of Boer prisoners had been over-estimated. That was rather an unsatisfactory Answer considering that the whole of the transaction took place within the last twelve months. If the War Office had no place to store the clothes, it surely would have been cheaper to hire part of a warehouse to store them than to waste 40 per cent. of the price by selling them. He could not help thinking that the reason for disposing of the clothes was not want of accommodation, but really because the War Office, being anxious to reduce the Estimates for one year, sold the clothes at a sacrifice. He supposed there was a possibility of the War Office expenses having to be found by another Government next year, and that those responsible for the War Office at present were anxious to show that their management had been very good. He hoped the Financial Secretary to the War Office would give a more satisfactory explanation than had yet been offered of this large loss of money. He further desired to know if the Home Office inspector's report on the Army Clothing Factories would be published, even if it was a bad one. He believed it was already in print and that some hon. Members had seen it.
§ *MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORTIt has not been seen by me, and it has not come before the Department yet.
§ MR. COURTENAY WARNERsaid it was a great pity that the hon. Gentleman should not have seen it The officials connected with the Clothing Department should have seen it. He believed the report did not give so beautiful a description of the state of things as the hon. Gentleman gave in his speech. He was informed that the suits which were sold at 5s. 7½d. each were bought by a Mr. Moses, and that they were being retailed at 7s. 6d. The placing of clothing on the market in that way was conducive to sweating, 1826 and that was a form of dumping which should be avoided.
§ MR. WHITLEY (Halifax)said that after what had occurred in connection with some other departments of the War Office they were naturally very anxious to watch all matters of this kind. They had recently been told that the War Office sold oats at half the contract price when they were actually buying from the same contractors in the same month the same kind of article at full price. He agreed with the last speaker that the clothing transaction had been largely due to the desire of the present occupants of the War Office to make their accounts seem better than they really were. They had used appropriations-in-aid in an extraordinary way to make an apparent reduction of their total demand in the Estimates. What he wished to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office was whether it was a fact that the War Office had been putting out tenders for clothing at the same time as they were selling off surplus stores of a similar kind at more than fifty per cent. below the contract price. If that was the case, it was clear that it had been done to gain a little financial credit at the expense of the taxpayers. If the War Office store houses were full it would surely have been better to hire an outside warehouse in which to place the 20,000 suits than to give fresh orders for similar clothing during the coming financial year.
§ *MR. BARRAN (Leeds, N.)said there was further evidence, outside anything that appeared in the Parliamentary Papers, that there was want of co-ordination between the different departments of the War Office. It was not an uncommon thing for large quantities of material, such as serge, to be sold at very low prices, while in the ordinary course of events similar material was being purchased for other departments at the same time, or would certainly be required in a short space of time. He could tell the Financial Secretary of sales by public auction which had taken place, after being advertised, within the last few months at which hundreds, if not thousands of pounds worth of goods had been sold of the type, or near the type, which manufacturers, if not contracting for 1827 now, would probably be asked to contract for shortly. There was no reasonable excuse why the goods which were being sold should not be employed instead of that which would be bought later on. This was not a matter that was occurring at the present time only. It was a matter of notoriety that great bargains could be picked up at these War Office sales. The only valid excuse was that the goods were unfit, but if that were advanced the question would arise how goods which were unfit were allowed to pass into stock. Yesterday he had asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of recent disclosures, he would press through Parliament a Bill for the prevention of secret commissions. It would perhaps not be right for him to say anything with regard to the War Office in connection with any matters which were not under consideration at the present time. He wanted to point out that in the general trade of the country where matters of this kind cropped up, a wise person would take the requisite steps to prevent anything of the kind occurring in the future. Without wishing to reflect on any particular individual or firm, he would say that certain branches of commerce were honeycombed by such practices.
§ *MR. SPEAKERsaid that unless the hon. Member could connect his remarks with some particular case connected with the Vote, he was not in older.
§ *MR. BARRANsaid he was sorry to have travelled beyond the limits of discussion. He had merely wanted to throw out a suggestion. There were many matters of wastefulness in connection with the War Office which were well known throughout the trade in this and other cities, and which needed far more careful attention than they had received in the past.
§ MR. GEORGE WHITE (Norfolk, N. W.)said that in almost all the Departments there had been enormous waste in connection with the South African War. Of his own knowledge he knew that large numbers of Army regulation boots, similar to those which were being taken in at this moment at the Clothing Depôt at about 11s. per 1828 pair, were being sold retail at from 5s. 6d. to 5s. 9d. per pair. He presumed, from what he knew of the trade, that the gentlemen who purchase these boots must have given from 2s. 6d. to 3s. per pair for what cost the War Office three-and-a-half times that money. He was assured that these goods were sold at the ruinous prices mentioned because they were offered in such large quantities. If tenders for smaller quantities had been asked for better prices would have been obtained. Moreover, these were goods not of a perishable nature, and could have been transhipped from South Africa at a small cost, and issued to the troops here. There had undoubtedly been a waste of hundreds of thousands of pounds, and he intended to put one or two Questions to the Secretary of State for War on this matter in order to elicit the facts as they had been presented to him.
§ *MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORTsaid he thought it was an understood thing that the sales in South Africa were not to be dealt with at this time.
§ MR. GEORGE WHITEsaid that that only referred to the Report of the Auditor-General.
§ *MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORTsaid he greatly regretted, indeed he protested, against the suggestion, the innuendo, that was conveyed throughout the whole of the speech of the hon. Member for Leeds. The hon. Member referred to secret commissions and said that that was a direction in which a wise person would insist on reform. Surely every man should have a fair trial and not be condemned until he was impartially heard. When the hon. Member could point to one single example in which the contract branch of the War Department had had even a suspicion attached to it, then, and only then, he would be entitled to talk of the exposure of the War Office. He should be greatly surprised if the hon. Member was at any time in the future able to point to a single instance in which the contract branch had been in any way to blame. In reply to the hon. Member for Lichfield, he had to say that, if there was a report of the inspector on the Royal Army Clothing Factory, he had not seen it, but, if it 1829 were the case that it contained a suggestion of some shortcomings, he would at once proceed to make any amendment that was possible. The hon. Member could not imagine that the War Office had any other object in view except that the factory employees should pursue their occupations with all comfort, convenience, and happiness, consistent with their duty to the taxpayers. The hon. Member also referred to the sale of 20,000 suits of clothes which were purchased in connection with the war in South Africa.
§ MR. COURTENAY WARNERsaid his information was that the suits were made at a much more recent date than that.
§ *MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORTreplied that the hon. Member's information was entirely incorrect. These suits were made for war purposes, and they were sold because, the war having come to an end, there was no further use for them. They were purchased for the purpose of clothing Boer prisoners, and our own soldiers when they obtained their discharge. It was very regrettable that any public property should be sold at a loss. But owing to the conditions of war the Government had to pay an inflated price for what they required, partly because they were the principal purchaser. The end of the war came very suddenly, and then not only did the principal purchaser cease to buy, which in itself would affect the price, but the Government became the principal seller, and it was not surprising if under such conditions the price fell even 50 per cent. The cost of storage accommodation was very great, and he was not anxious largely to increase it. They had retained four years supply and sold 20,000 suits. The clothes which were purchased for the Boer prisoners were not, unhappily, of that size which was suitable for the troops of the British Army—[OPPOSITION cries of "Oh"]—they were a great deal too large. The 3,000 suits which they were now buying were of a special size which was running short. He assured the House that when they sold they got the best price that could be obtained; they invited no fewer than 123 firms to tender, and took the highest tender.
§ MR. WHITLEYasked if the hon. Member could give the House the date of the purchases.
§ *MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORTsaid that they were all purchased before the termination of the war. He had no knowledge whatever of the purchases of the boots.
§ *MR. LEVY (Leicestershire, Loughborough)said that if there was not corruption at the War Office, the idea was Very widely prevalent that justice was not done to all the people who wished to tender, and that goods were accepted from certain firms or individuals at exceedingly high rates, and frequently goods were purchased in quantities largely in excess of the requirements of the War Office and were then sold at prices much under cost. It was a fact that in the early stages of the war very large contracts for khaki drid were given to merchants in the City of London, not one yard of which was made by the firms who received the contracts, whereas orders were refused to the manufacturers who made the khaki drill and supplied the merchants who received the contracts and themselves tendered at a much lower price than was paid by the Government.
§ MR. LYELL (Dorsetshire, E.)said the first criticism which could be levelled against the War Office was that they did not know the Value of a good storekeeper. Was it conceivable that the War Office could not have obtained storage and insurance for these 20,000 suits at a tenth of the cost which the sales realised? He did not level at the War Office any charge of corruption or any insinuation that they had received private commissions in connection with these sales. But he did charge the War Office with a want of business capacity which would have brought a private firm into the Bankruptcy Court in a few months.
§ *SIR A. HAYTER (Walsall)said the Financial Secretary to the War Office had omitted one very important fact in connection with the surplus clothing. When soldiers were discharged they were offered a suit of clothing or, instead, 1831 a gratuity in money. Looking at human nature as it was, the majority of the men took the money and not the clothing. Hence much of the surplus supply of clothing. He wished to ask the hon. Gentleman whether the recommendation of the Public Accounts Committee that, whenever a sale of public property took place, the officer who conducted the sale should give a certificate that the prices obtained were the best that could be obtained in the circumstances, had been given effect to in the case of the sale of this clothing?
§ *MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORTsaid he did not know of the existence of such a recommendation by the Public Accounts Committee, but he had the assurance of his right hon. friend the Secretary for War that he approved of the recommendation and would see that it was carried out.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 215; Noes, 163. (Division List No. 95.)
1835| AYES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Hoult, Joseph |
| Allsopp, Hon. George | Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Howard, J. (Kent, Faversham) |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Crossley, Rt. Hn. Sir Savile | Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Dalkeith, Earl of | Hudson, George Bickersteth |
| Arnold-Forster, Rt Hn Hugh O. | Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Hunt, Rowland |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hn. John | Davenport, William Bromley | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse |
| Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. | Denny, Colonel | Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Dickinson, Robert Edmond | Jessel, Captain Herb. Merton |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Dickson, Charles Scott | Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir J. C. | Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn Col. W. |
| Balcarres, Lord | Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E. | King, Sir Henry Seymour |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r | Doughty, Sir George | Knowles, Sir Lees |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W, (Leeds | Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers | Lambton, Hn. Frederick Wm. |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. | Doxford, Sir Wm. Theodore | Laurie, Lieut.-General |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Duke, Henry Edward | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton | Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th |
| Bartley, Sir George C. T. | Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Fardell, Sir T. George | Lawson, Hn. H. L. W (Mile End) |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward | Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. NR |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r | Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham |
| Bigwood, James | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) |
| Bill, Charles | Finch, Rt. Hn. George H. | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage |
| Bingham, Lord | Finlay, Sir R. B (Inv'rn'ssB'ghs | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Fisher, William Hayes | Llewellyn, Evan Henry |
| Bond, Edward | Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Lockwood, Lieut. Col. A. R. |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith | Flower, Sir Ernest | Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham |
| Brassey, Albert | Forster, Henry William | Long, Rt. Hn Walter (Bristol, S. |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hn. St. John | Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W. | Lonsdale, John Brownlee |
| Brotherton, Edward Allen | Gardner, Ernest | Lowe, Francis William |
| Bull, William James | Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. | Loyd, Archie Kirkman |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn) | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft |
| Butcher, John George | Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth |
| Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ, | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Lyttelton, Rt. Hn. Alfred |
| Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H. | Graham, Henry Robert | Macdona, John Gumming |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Gretton, John | Maclver, David (Liverpool) |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh. | Greville, Hn. Ronald | Maconochie, A. W. |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Guthrie, Walter Murray | M'Arthur, Chas. (Liverpool) |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Hall, Edward Marshall | M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh, W |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc. | Halsey, Rt. Hn. Thomas F. | Majendie, James A. H. |
| Chamberlayne, T. (S'hampton) | Hambro, Charles Eric | Malcolm, Ian |
| Chapman, Edward | Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nderry | Manners, Lord Cecil |
| Clive, Captain Percy A. | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Marks, Harry Hananel |
| Coates, Edward Feetham | Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th | Martin, Richard Biddulph |
| Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E, | Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Heath, Sir James (Staffords N W | Maxwell, Rt Hn. Sir H. E. (Wigt'n |
| Collings, Rt. Hn. Jesse | Helder, Augustus | Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh. |
| Colomb, Rt. Hn. Sir John C. R | Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W. | Milvain, Thomas |
| Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Hickman, Sir Alfred | Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants) |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Hoare, Sir Samuel | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy |
| Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Hogg, Lindsay | Moore, William |
| Morgan, David J (Walthamstow | Renwick, George | Tuff, Charles |
| Morrell, George Herbert | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) | Turnour, Viscount |
| Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney | Vincent, Col. Sir C E H. (Sheffield) |
| Mount, William Arthur | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H |
| Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Round, Rt. Hon. James | Welby, Lt. Col. A. C. E. (Taunton) |
| Nicholson, William Graham | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford | Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd |
| Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury | Sadler, Cel. Samuel Alexander | Whiteley, H. (Ashton und Lyne |
| Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R. |
| Peel, Hn. W. Robert Wellesley | Sharps, William Edward T. | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Percy, Earl | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) | Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H. (Yorks. |
| Pilkington, Colonel Richard | Skewes-Cox, Thomas | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Sloan, Thomas Henry | Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson |
| Plummer, Sir Walter R. | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East | Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart |
| Pretyman, Ernest George | Spear, John Ward | Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H. |
| Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart | Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong |
| Randles, John S. | Stroyan, John | Younger, William |
| Rankin, Sir James | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) | |
| Ratcliff, R. F. | Talbot, Rt Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir |
| Reid, James (Greenock) | Thornton, Percy M. | Alexander Acland-Hood and |
| Remnant, James Farquharson | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. | Viscount Valentia. |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E. | Freeman-Thomas, Captain F. | Moss, Samuel |
| Abraham, Wm. (Rhondda) | Furness, Sir Christopher | Moulton, John Fletcher |
| Allen, Charles P. | Gilhooly, James | Murphy, John |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. John | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) |
| Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herb. Henry | Goddard, Daniel Ford | Nussey, Thomas Willans |
| Barlow, John Emmott | Grant, Corrie | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid) |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Haldane, Rt. Hn. Richard B. | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Hammond, John | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Harcourt, Lewis | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W |
| Bell, Richard | Harmsworth, R. Leicester | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Benn, John Williams | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) |
| Black, Alexander William | Hayter, Rt Hn. Sir Arthur D. | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
| Blake, Edward | Helme, Norval Watson | O'Dowd, John |
| Boland, John | Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H. | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | O'Malley, William |
| Brigg, John | Higham, John Sharpe | O'Mara, James |
| Bright, Allan Heywood | Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Holland, Sir William Henry | O'Shee, James John |
| Burke, E. Haviland | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | Partington, Oswald |
| Burns, John | Hutchinson, Dr. Chas. Fredk. | Paulton, James Mellor |
| Caldwell James | Jacoby, James Alfred | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) |
| Cameron, Robert | Johnson, John | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Joicey, Sir James | Rea, Russell |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea | Reckitt, Harold James |
| Cawley, Frederick | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Reddy, M. |
| Cheetham, John Frederick | Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire | Redmond, John E. (Waterford |
| Cogan, Denis J. | Jordan, Jeremiah | Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Joyce, Michael | Richards, Thomas (W Monm'th |
| Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark | Kearley, Hudson E. | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Cremer, William Randal | Kilbride, Denis | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs. |
| Crombie, John William | Kitson, Sir James | Robson, William Snowdon |
| Crooks, William | Lamont, Norman | Roche, John |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.) | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) | Runciman, Walter |
| Delany, William | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Russell, T. W. |
| Dilke, Rt. Hn. Sir Charles | Levy, Maurice | Samuel, Herb. L. (Cleveland) |
| Dobbie, Joseph | Lewis, John Herbert | Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight |
| Doogan, P. C. | Lough, Thomas | Shackleton, David James |
| Douglas, Chas. M. (Lanark) | Lundon, W. | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
| Ellice, Capt E C (S Andrw's Bghs) | Lyell, Charles Henry | Sheehy, David |
| Emmott, Alfred | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) |
| Eve, Harry Trelawney | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Slack, John Bamford |
| Findlay, Alexander (Lanark, N E | M'Crae, George | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | M'Kean, John | Spencer, Rt. Hn. C R. (Northants) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Mooney, John J. | Stevenson, Francis S |
| Flynn, James Christopher | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen | Sullivan, Donal |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co. | Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Tennant, Harold John | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N |
| Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E. | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) | Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd |
| Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) | Young, Samuel |
| Tomkinson, James | White, George (Norfolk) | |
| Toulmin, George | White, Luke (York, E. R.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. |
| Trevelyan, Charles Philips | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer | Warner and Mr. J. H. |
| Ure, Alexander | Wills, Arthur Walters (N. Dorset | Whitley. |
| Waldron, Laurence Ambrose | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
§ And it being after Eleven of the clock, Mr. Speaker pursuant to the Order of the House of the 16th March, proceeded to put forth with the Questions necessary to dispose of the Report of Vote A of the Army Estimates.
§ "That a number of Land Forces, not exceeding 221,300, all ranks, be maintained for the Service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland at Home and Abroad, excluding His Majesty's Indian Possessions, during the
1836§ year ending on the 31st day of March, 1906."
§ To which an Amendment had been proposed [30th March], to leave out "221,300," and insert "211,300."—(Mr. Courtenay Warner.)
§ Question put, "That '221300.' Stand part of the said Resolution."
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 230; Noes 173. (Division List No. 96)
1839| AYES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Coates, Edward Feetham | Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. | Goulding, Edward Alfred |
| Allsopp, Hon. George | Coghill, Douglas Harry | Graham, Henry Robert |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Collings, Rt. Hn. Jesse | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Colomb, Rt. Hn. Sir John. C. R. | Gretton, John |
| Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O | Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Greville, Hon. Ronald |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Compton, Lord Alwyne | Guthrie, Walter Murray |
| Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. | Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Hall, Edward Marshall |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Halsey, Rt Hn. Thomas F. |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Hambro, Charles Eric |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S. | Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nderry |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Crossley, Rt. Hn. Sir Savile | Hare, Thomas Leigh |
| Balcarres, Lord | Cubitt, Hn. Henry | Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Munch'r | Dalkeith, Earl of | Haslam, Sir Alfred S. |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W (Leeds | Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Hay, Hn. Claude George |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. | Davenport, William Bromley | Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley |
| Banbury, Sir Fredk. George | Denny, Colonel | Heath, Sir. Jas. (Staffords N. W. |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Dickinson, Robert Edmond | Heaton, John Henniker |
| Bartley, Sir George C. T. | Dickson, Charles Scott | Helder, Augustus |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph C | Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Hickman, Sir Alfred |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E. | Hoare, Sir Samuel |
| Bigwood, James | Doughty, Sir George | Hogg, Lindsay |
| Bill, Charles | Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside |
| Bingham, Lord | Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Hoult, Joseph |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Duke, Henry Edward | Howard, J. (Kent, Faversham) |
| Bond, Edward | Egerton, Hn. A. de Tatton | Hozier, Hn. Jas. Henry Cecil |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith | Elliot, Hn. A. Ralph Douglas | Hudson, George Bickersteth |
| Brassey, Albert | Fardell, Sir T. George | Hunt, Rowland |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hn. St. John | Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse |
| Brotherton, Edward Allen | Fergusson, Rt. Hn Sir J (Manc'r | Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred. |
| Bull, William James | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Jessel, Capt. Herb. Merton |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Finch, Rt. Hn. George H | Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir J. H. |
| Butcher, John George | Finlay, Sir R. B (Inv'rn'ss B'ghs | Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh |
| Campbell, J. H M (Dublin Univ. | Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas | Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W |
| Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H. | Fisher, William Hayes | Keswick, William |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Flannery, Sir Fortescue | King, Sir Henry Seymour |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh. | Flower, Sir Ernest | Knowles, Sir Lees |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Forster, Henry William | Lambton, Hn. Frederick Wm. |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Foster, Philip S (Warwick, S. W | Laurie, Lieut.-General |
| Chamberlain, Rt Hn J A (Worc.) | Gardner, Ernest | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) |
| Chamberlayne, T (S'thampton | Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. | Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th |
| Chapman, Edward | Gordon, Hn. J. E (Elgin & Nairn) | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) |
| Clive, Captain Percy A. | Gordon, Maj. Evans (T'rH'mlets | Lawson, Hn. H. L. W. (Mile End) |
| Lawson, John Grant (Yorks N R | Morrell, George Herbert | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Lee, Arthur H (Hants. Fareham) | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | Smith, Abel H (Hertford, East) |
| Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) | Mount, William Arthur | Spear, John Ward |
| Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) | Stewart, Sir Mark J M'Taggart |
| Leveson,-Gower, Frederick N. S | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Stroyan, John |
| Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Nicholson, William Graham | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Lockwood, Lieut-Col. A. R. | Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury) | Talbot, Rt. Hn J G. (Oxf'd Univ. |
| Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham | Parker, Sir Gilbert | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S | Pease, Herb. Pike, Darlington) | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Peel, Hn. Wm. R. Wellesley | Tuff, Charles |
| Lowe, Francis William | Percy, Earl | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Pierpoint, Robert | Turnour, Viscount |
| Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Pilkington, Colonel Richard | Vincent, Col Sir C. E H (Sheffield) |
| Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsm'th) | Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. H. |
| Lyttelton, Rt. Hn. Alfred | Plummer, Sir Walter R. | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Macdona, John Cumming | Pretyman, Ernest George | Webb, Colonel Wm. George |
| MacIver, David (Liverpool) | Pryee-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | Welby, Lt.-Col A. C. E (Taunton |
| Maconochie, A. W. | Randles, John S. | Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd |
| M'Arthur, Chas. (Liverpool) | Rankin, Sir James | Whiteley, H. (Ashton und Lyne) |
| M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W | Ratcliff, R. F. | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Majendie, James A. H. | Reid, James (Greenock) | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
| Malcolm, Ian | Remnant, James Farquharson | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R. |
| Manners, Lord Cecil | Renwick, George | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Marks, Harry Hananel | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) | Wilson-Todd, Sir W H (Yorks |
| Martin, Richard Biddulph | Robertson, Herb. (Hackney) | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. | Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson |
| Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H E (Wigt'n) | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert | Wortley, Rt Hn. C. B. Stuart |
| Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire) | Round, Rt. Hn. James | Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H. |
| Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G | Sackville, Col. S. G Stopford | Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong |
| Milvain, Thomas | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander | Younger, William |
| Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | |
| Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Sharpe, William Edward T. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir |
| Moore, William | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) | Alexander Acland-Hood and |
| Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) | Skewes-Cox, Thomas | Viscount Valentia. |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N E.) | Delany, William | Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) |
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Dilke, Rt. Hn. Sir Charles | Holland, Sir William Henry |
| Allen, Charles P. | Dobbie, Joseph | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Doogan, P. C. | Hutchinson, Dr Chas. Fredk. |
| Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herb. Henry | Douglas, Chas. M. (Lanark) | Jacoby, James Alfred |
| Barlow, John Emmott | Duffy, William J. | Johnson, John |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Ellice, Capt. E. C (SAndrw's Bghs) | Joicey, Sir James |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Emmott, Alfred | Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Esmonde, Sir Thomas | Jones, Leif (Appleby) |
| Bell, Richard | Eve, Harry Trelawney | Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire |
| Benn, John Williams | Findlay, Alexander (Lanark,N E | Jordan, Jeremiah |
| Black, Alexander William | Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | Joyce, Michael |
| Blake, Edward | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Kearley, Hudson E. |
| Boland, John | Flynn, James Christopher | Kilbride, Denis |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | Kitson, Sir James |
| Brigg, John | Freeman-Thomas, Captain F. | Lamont, Norman |
| Bright, Allan Heywood | Furness, Sir Christopher | Law, Hugh Alex (Donegal, W.) |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Gilhooly, James | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) |
| Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Gladstone, Rt. Hn Herbert John | Layland-Barratt, Francis |
| Burke, E. Haviland | Goddard, Daniel Ford | Levy, Maurice |
| Burns, John | Grant, Corrie | Lewis, John Herbert |
| Caldwell, James | Griffiths, Ellis J. | Lough, Thomas |
| Cameron, Robert | Guest, Hn. Ivor Churchill | Lundon, W. |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Lyell, Charles Henry |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Haldane, Rt. Hn. Richard B. | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. |
| Cawley, Frederick | Hammond, John | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift |
| Cheetham, John Frederick | Harcourt, Lewis | MacVeagh, Jeremiah |
| Cogan, Denis J. | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil | M'Crae, George |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Harmsworth, R. Leicester | M'Kean, John |
| Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark) | Hayden, John Patrick | Mooney, John J. |
| Cremer, William Randal | Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D. | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) |
| Crombie, John William | Helme, Norval Watson | Morley, Rt. Hn. J. (Montrose) |
| Crooks, William | Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H. | Moss, Samuel |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Moulton, John Fletcher |
| Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan | Higham, John Sharpe | Murphy, John |
| Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford | Tennant, Harold John |
| Norman, Henry | Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E. |
| Nussey, Thomas Willans | Richards, Thomas (W Monm'th | Thomas, D. Alfred (Merthyr) |
| O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid) | Rickett, J. Compton | Tomkinson, James |
| O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs) | Toulmin, George |
| O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | Robson, William Snowdon | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W, | Roche, John | Ure, Alexander |
| O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Roe, Sir Thomas | Waldron, Laurence Ambrose |
| O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) | Rose, Charles Day | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W. | Runciman, Walter | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) |
| O'Dowd, John | Russell, T. W. | Wason, J Cathcart (Orkney) |
| O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | Samuel, Herb. L. (Cleveland | White, George (Norfolk) |
| O'Malley, William | Shackleton, David James | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| O'Mara, James | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Sheehy, David | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| O'Shee, James John | Shipman, Dr. John G. | Wills, Arthur Walters (N. Dorset |
| Partington, Oswald | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Paulton, James Mellor | Slack, John Bamford | Wilson, J W (Worcestersh, N.) |
| Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) | Soames, Arthur Wellesley | Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd |
| Power, Patrick Joseph | Soares, Ernest J. | Young, Samuel |
| Priestley, Arthur | Spencer, Rt. Hn. C R (Northants | |
| Rea, Russel | Stevenson, Francis S. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. |
| Reckitt, Harold James | Sullivan, Donal | Warner and Major Seely. |
| Reddy, M. | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
§ Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution"
1840§ The House divided:—Ayes, 228; Noes, 155. (Division List No. 97.)
1843| AYES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A. (Worc. | Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W. |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton | Gardner, Ernest |
| Allsopp, Hon. George | Chapman, Edward | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Clive, Captain Percy A. | Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn) |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Coates, Edward Feetham | Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets |
| Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O | Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Goulding, Edward Alfred |
| Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. | Colomb, Rt. Hon. Sir John C. R. | Graham, Henry Robert |
| Bagot, Capt, Josceline FitzRoy | Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Compton, Lord Alwyne | Gretton, John |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Greville, Hon. Ronald |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Guest. Hon. Ivor. Churchill |
| Balcarres, Lord | Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Guthrie, Walter Murray |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r) | Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim. S | Hall, Edward Marshall |
| Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds | Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile | Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. | Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Hambro, Charles Eric |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Dalkeith, Earl of | Hamilton Marq. of (L'nd'nderry |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Hare, Thomas Leigh |
| Bartley, Sir George C. T. | Davenport, William Bromley- | Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th) |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Denny, Colonel | Haslam, Sir Alfred S. |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Dickinson, Robert Edmond | Hay, Hon. Claude George |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Dickson, Charles Scott | Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley |
| Bigwood, James | Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph C. | Heath, Sir James (Staffords. N W |
| Bill, Charles | Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Heaton, John Henniker |
| Bingham, Lord | Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E. | Helder, Augustus |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Doughty, Sir George | Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W) |
| Bond, Edward | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Hickman, Sir Alfred |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith | Doxford, Sir William Theodore. | Hoare, Sir Samuel |
| Brassey, Albert | Duke, Henry Edward | Hogg, Lindsay |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton | Hope J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside |
| Brotherton, Edward Allen | Fardell, Sir T. George | Hoult, Joseph |
| Bull, William James | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r | Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil |
| Butcher, John George | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Hudson, George Bickersteth |
| Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ. | Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Hunt, Rowland |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Finlay, Sir R. B. (Inv'rn'ss B'ghs) | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Finbank, Sir Joseph Thomas | Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred. |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire | Fisher, William Hayes | Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Flower, Sir Ernest | Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Forster, Henry William | Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh) |
| Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W. | Milvain, Thomas | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Keswick, William | Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.) | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) |
| King, Sir Henry Seymour | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Skewes-Cox, Thomas |
| Knowles, Sir Lees | Moore, William | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. | Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) |
| Laurie, Lieut.-General | Morrell, George Herbert | Spear, John Ward |
| Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Morrison, James Archibald | Stewart Sir Mark J. M'Taggart |
| Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th) | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | Stroyan, John |
| Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) | Mount, William Arthur | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Lawson, Hn. H. L. W. (Mile End) | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ |
| Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N R | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Lee Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham | Nicholson, William Graham | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) | Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury) | Tuff, Charles |
| Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Parker, Sir Gilbert | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington | Turnour, Viscount |
| Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley | Vincent, Col. Sir C. E H (Sheffield |
| Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. | Percy, Earl | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) |
| Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham | Pierpoint, Robert | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H. |
| Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S) | Pilkington, Colonel Richard | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Webb, Colonel William George |
| Lowe, Francis William | Plummer, Sir Walter R. | Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E (Taunton |
| Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Pretyman, Ernest George | Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne |
| Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth) | Randles, John S. | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
| Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | Rankin, Sir James | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R. |
| Macdona, John Cumming | Ratcliff, R. F | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| MacIver, David (Liverpool) | Reid, James (Greenock) | Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H. (Yorks. |
| Maconochie, A. W. | Remnant, James Farquharson | Woff, Guatav Wilhelm |
| M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Renwick, George | Worsley-Taylor, Hemy Wilson |
| M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W. | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart |
| Majendie, James A. H. | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) | Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H. |
| Malcolm, Ian | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. | Younger, William |
| Manners, Lord Cecil | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert | |
| Marks, Harry Hananel | Round, Rt. Hon. James | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Sir |
| Martin, Richard Biddulph | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford | Alexander Acland-Hood and |
| Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H. E. (Wigt'n | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander | Viscount Valentia. |
| Maxwell, W. J. H (Dumfriesshire | Scott, Sir. S (Marylebone, W.) | |
| Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G. | Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E. | Dobbie, Joseph | Jones, Leif (Appleby) |
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Doogan, P. C. | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire |
| Allen, Charles P. | Duffy, William J. | Jordan, Jeremiah |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Ellice, Capt E C (S. Andrw's Bghs | Joyce, Michael |
| Barlow, John Emmott | Esmonde, Sir Thomas | Kearley, Hudson E. |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Eve, Harry Trelawney | Kilbride, Denis |
| Beaumont, Wentworth, C. B. | Findlay, Alexander (Lanark, N E | Lamont, Norman |
| Bell, Richard | Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.) |
| Benn, John Williams | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) |
| Black, Alexander William | Flynn, James Christopher | Layland-Barratt, Francis |
| Blake, Edward | Freeman-Thomas, Captain F. | Levy, Maurice |
| Boland, John | Gilhooly, James | Lewis, John Herbert |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John | Lough, Thomas |
| Brigg, John | Goddard, Daniel Ford | Lundon, W. |
| Bright, Allan Heywood | Grant, Corrie | Lyell, Charles Henry |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Griffith, Ellis J. | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. |
| Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Gordon, Sir W. Brampton | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift |
| Burke, E. Haviland | Hammond, John | MacVeagh, Jeremiah |
| Caldwell, James | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | M'Crae, George |
| Cameron, Robert | Harmsworth, R. Leicester | M'Kean, John |
| Campbell, John (Armagh S.) | Hayden, John Patrick | M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. | Mooney, John J. |
| Cawley, Frederick | Helme, Norval Watson | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) |
| Cheetham, John Frederick | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose |
| Cogan, Denis J. | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Moss, Samuel |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Higham, John Sharpe | Moulton, John Fletcher |
| Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark) | Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.) | Murphy, John |
| Cremer, William Randal | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) |
| Crombie, John William | Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk. | Norman, Henry |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Jacoby, James Alfred | Nussey, Thomas Willans |
| Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan | Johnson, John | O'Brien Kendal (Tipperary Mid |
| Delany, William | Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th) | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr) |
| O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) | Rickett, J. Compton | Tomkinson, James |
| O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) | Toulmin, George |
| O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) | Robson, William Snowdon. | Ure, Alexander |
| O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | Roche, John | Waldron, Laurence Ambrose |
| O'Dowd, John | Roe, Sir Thomas | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | Rose, Charles Day | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) |
| O'Malley, William | Russell, T. W. | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| O'Mara, James | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) | White, George (Norfolk) |
| O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Shackleton, David James | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| O'Shee, James John | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Partington, Oswald | Sheehy, David | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Paulton, James Mellor | Shipman, Dr. John G. | Wills, Arthur Walters (N. Dorset |
| Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Power, Patrick Joseph | Slack, John Bamford | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.) |
| Price, Robert John | Soames, Arthur Wellesley | Woodhouse Sir J T. (Huddersf'd |
| Priestley, Arthur | Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (Northants | Young, Samuel |
| Rea, Russell | Stevenson, Francis S. | |
| Reddy, M. | Sullivan, Donal | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | Barran and Mr. Soares. |
| Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries | Tennant, Harold John |
Resolution agreed to.
§ Resolution, which upon March 23rd was reported from the Committee of Supply, and which was then agreed to by the House, read, as followeth—
§ "That 129,000 officers, seamen, and boys be employed for the Sea and Coast Guard Services for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1906, including 20,211 Royal Marines."
§ Ordered, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide, during Twelve Months, for the Discipline and Regulation of the Army; and that Mr. Secretary Arnold-Forster, Mr. Pretyman, and Mr. Bromley Davenport do prepare and bring it in.