HC Deb 23 March 1905 vol 143 cc1039-59

Order read, for Further Consideration of First Resolution, "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £12, 000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1905, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Departments of the Solicitor for the Affairs of His Majesty's Treasury, King's Proctor, and Director of Public Prosecutions, the Cost of Prosecutions, and other Legal Proceedings. "

Resolution further considered.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution. "

*MR. CRIPPS (Lancashire, Stretford)

expressed a desire to call attention to what, to his mind, was a very important consideration involved in the Report of the Committee which investigated the Adolf Beck case. He did not propose to deal with the question of remuneration so far as Adolf Beck was concerned, because there were much wider considerations which affected the administration of the criminal law in this country. The Committee found that there had been a deplorable failure of justice. It was suggested by a late Home Secretary, the right hon. Member for Fife, that this deplorable failure of justice ad only arisen under exceptional conditions which were not likely to recur, but which did occur in the case of Adolf Beck. He was not satisfied with that. Speaking from his experience as a deputy chairman of quarter sessions, he was not satisfied that in all the criminal cases he had tried a just decision had been given. There were cases in our criminal jurisdiction where the conviction was not satisfactory and where the decision of the Judge ought to be reviewed by another Court. Not only was there a deplorable failure of justice in this case but—and he entirely agreed with the Committee, and differed from the right hon. Member for Fife and the present Home Secretary in that respect—there was a deplorable failure on the part of the Home Office to perform what was their duty at the present time under the existing system of the administration of criminal law. He agreed that the Home Office was not a Court for the review of criminal procedure on questions of fact. If questions of fact were to be reconsidered they must be reconsidered before a judicial body, and ought to be so considered and not relegated to a mere administrative body which had no machinery for retrial. He agreed with all that was found in the Report of the Committee—whose recommendations would be carried out in a Bill which was being introduced in another place—that no blame was to be attached either to the police or to the Public Prosecutor, and that the failure arose in the first instance in the proceedings before the Judge, and in the second, in the failure of the Home Office to take the necessary steps when certain information came to their hand to put right, not only what was a deplorable failure of justice, but which ought to have been recognised by them as a great mistake when the papers were put before them.

So far as the trial was concerned, he thought the matter was put right by the recommendations of the Committee. The case was put by them as one of mistaken identity, and if the learned Judge had admitted certain evidence, which he did not admit, the case would have not proceeded further. In his opinion, however, the Report of the Committee did not go far enough. It did go to the extent that if a similar case arose there would be an opportunity of bringing it before the Court when it sat as a Crown Court to consider points of law in criminal cases. The Judges had assented in recent years more readily than in olden times to state a case on disputed law, in order that there might be authoritative decisions. There could be no greater injustice than that there should be a risk that a man might be convicted owing to a mistake on the part of the presiding Judge. He did not wish to make a personal attack on any one, but it was obvious that there was plenty of room for a mistake to take place, and they ought to take every security that if such a mistake was made the person charged did not suffer from it.

A more important point in the Committee's Report was with regard to the conduct of the Home Office. He had no desire to cast aspersions on permanent officials who could not defend themselves in the House, but he did find fault with the system which allowed such a remarkable failure of justice to take place, when it ought to have been put right in the earlier stages of the proceedings, and the irredeemable wrong which had been done to Adolf Beck prevented. After the trial, evidence came to the Home Office to show that Beck could not be the same person as the criminal Smith, who had been tried and convicted on a former occasion, and the House must remember that both at the, trial and in the conviction in Beck's case much turned on the assumption that Smith and Beck were one and the same person. The Home Office had in their hands what appeared to him to be irrefutable evidence of the non-identity of Smith and Beck. He had seen the two documents which were said to be identical, but, from his point of view, it was really impossible to say that they were identical when once closely examined. That, also, was the view of the Committee. In addition to that, there were the marks of identification which could not be gainsaid; and owing to the nationality of Smith it was utterly impossible that Smith and Beck could be the same person. Therefore, the Home Office had within their own archives irrefutable evidence that a main point on which the conviction was founded did not exist in fact.

Under those circumstances, what was the duty of the Home Office? He did not say for a moment that the Home Office ought to be looked upon as a Court of criminal review. Its duty was, if subsequent evidence came to their notice that a particular conviction had been wrongly brought about, and that the conditions on which that conviction was based did not exist in fact, to see that the criminal was pardoned and released and not left in prison for a long time and under the conditions in which Beck was left. He would go a step further. The Home Office gave it in evidence that they wrote to the presiding Judge, Sir Forrest Fulton, the Recorder of London; but it was quite clear that, in that communication to the Judge, they did not bring to his mind that one of the conditions under which Beck was convicted was false in fact. It was for that reason that the Judge wrote back that he was satisfied that the conviction was right. In exercising the prerogative of pardon the Home Office should bring the true bearings of the facts within their knowledge to the notice of the Judge. The Committee did not go one iota too far in their strictures upon the Home Office. They pointed out that the Home Office had failed, with a knowledge of all the facts, to take such steps as would have allowed immediate reparation to be done to Beck. He would not attempt to trace out where the fault lay; but the facts clearly showed that, as regarded the extremely important duty of the exercise of the prerogative of pardon, the Home Office was not sufficiently well-manned. Full notice and knowledge of the facts were brought to the Home Office, and apparently they went as far as the permanent Undersecretary. He agreed with what was said by a late Home Secretary that in a serious matter of this kind the facts should be brought to the notice of the Secretary of State himself; but in the Beck case nothing of the kind was done. The inference which the Committee drew was that, looking to the very important function which ought to be discharged by the Home Office in exercising the prerogative of pardon, the Home Office was inadequately manned. If that were so in the Beck case, it aroused suspicions in reference to other cases less clear. He had the strongest view that every criminal convicted under whatever condition had a right to have his case investigate by the Home Office—not as a court of criminal review, but so fully investigate as to give an effective result in order to remedy what the Committee in the Beck case called a "deplorable failure of justice. "Nobody with a knowledge of criminal prosecution would be satisfied that the Home Office had sufficient effective machinery for the investigation of such cases, and it was a duty worthy of this House to provide precautions, so far as was humanly possible, to protect an innocent man from conviction. What was borne in upon him was that, unless the Home Office were sufficiently manned so as to give effective consideration, no only to such extreme cases as Beck's, but to ordinary cases, our whole system of criminal jurisdiction in this country could not be regarded as satisfactory.

He admitted that all questions of criminal appeal were full of difficulty; but the difficulty ought to be faced. He thought they were very much indebted to the labours of the Committee which considered the Beck case. It was no small matter to ask one of the hardest worked Judges in this country to curtail his holidays in order to deal with a complicated question of this kind. Anyone who had read the Report carefully could see that it was not only a masterly analysis of the facts, but that this great Judge brought his experience to bear on the only practical remedy apart from a general revision of the judicial system of the country. He hoped this case would not be forgotten in one respect, He hoped the House would not lose sight of the fact that injustice of this kind could occur; or believe that this was an isolated case. He himself did not believe it was an isolated case; and he hoped the result would be that the Home Office system would be made more effective and that means would be provided by which criminal trials could be reviewed in order to render impossible, as far as human ingenuity could provide, such an act of injustice.

MR. HERBERT ROBERTSON (Hackney, S.)

said he agreed with his hon. and learned friend that such an act of injustice as had occurred should, if at all possible, be not allowed to recur. Undoubtedly this was not an isolated case. It, however, appeared to be assumed that Mr. Beck was convicted as Smith, who had been found guilty of similar crimes in 1877; and it was suggested by his hon. and learned friend that when it was discovered that Mr. Beck was not Smith, the Home Office was to blame for not taking action. He did not agree. One of the difficulties of the case was that Smith was kept out of the trial altogether. That was a very important point in our criminal law. It was a rule which existed in England, and which did not exist elsewhere, that it was no reason to suppose because A. B. committed a certain crime previously that therefore he had committed a similar crime now being tried. That was not admitted in English law. It was admitted in foreign countries. In France, for instance, there was always the presumption if A. B. had been convicted of a certain crime and was being tried for a similar crime that he was guilty. The Judge in this case refused to accept any proof as to the crimes committed in 1877. If that were understood, he did not see how the Home Office could have acted otherwise than it did. He, however, could not understand why the Home Office labelled Mr. Beck as Smith, and why they should assume that a man who had been tried without any reference to Smith was the person who had committed similar crimes in 1877. The evidence was erroneous, of course, but undoubtedly strong. There was evidence as regarded handwriting; but in his magisterial experience he never allowed handwriting to be taken into account. It was the most unsatisfactory form of evidence possible. There was, however, other evidence. All the women swore to the identity of this particular man; other witnesses were doubtful, and no evidence was offered that he was not the man. There was no alibi. There was nothing to guide the unfortunate jury—to every member of which he believed the case must have caused much pain and trouble for having convicted this man. He was afraid that they could not prevent things of this kind occurring occasionally; and he did not believe that even a Court of Criminal Appeal would be able to prevent them. The Court of Criminal Appeal would have had before it the same evidence, and the same verdict which had been returned, and on that evidence he did not sea how any other verdict could be returned. Personally he agreed with the Committee that it was not desirable that there should be a Court of Criminal Appeal. In the first place, there would have to be a limited time during which appeals could be made, and consequently only the same evidence would be available. Secondly; there would always be a difficulty in getting witnesses for the prisoner to come forward, from the fact that he had been previously convicted; and thirdly, as the power to revise sentences must almost necessarily include the power to increase them, there would be the risk of the prisoner's sentence being increased. He doubted whether the power to take cases up to the Court of Crown Cases Reserved would have any material effect in preventing miscarriages of justice. But what he wished to point out was that the original trial was the simple issue of whether Mr. Beck was the person who did certain acts on certain days, and the mere fact that he was not the man who committed other crimes of a similar nature was not such a discovery as necessarily to put everybody upon inquiry as to whether he did commit the crimes for which he was sentenced. For these reasons it appeared to him that there was no special blame to be attached to the Home Office.

MR. STUART WORTLEY (Sheffield, Hallam)

said it appeared from the remarks of hon. Gentlemen of exceptional experience in these matters that a great many more miscarriages of justice occurred than the public usually supposed. If that were so, the public did not hear either of the cases of mitigation of sentences or reversal of convictions, and that was a singular testimony to the fact that the existing system did admit of ultimate justice being done where mistakes unhappily occurred. In this particular case he did not think there was any reason to indulge in excessive alarm or apprehension as to the likelihood of the repetition of so unfortunate a mistake. There had not been proved any vindictive action on the part of the police, nor had there been shown that confusion which sometimes existed elsewhere between inquisitorial or executive functions and judicial functions. There had been no looking for promotion or increase of emolument based on the number of convictions obtained. That was one of the dangers which had to be guarded against in all criminal systems, and it was satisfactory that it had not been found in practice to obtain. A defect which had been shown to exist was the absence of a system of interchangeability of knowledge or records. The Prisons Department appeared to have had knowledge which the police had not and possibly both were aware of facts of which the Home Office was ignorant. The Committee had most properly drawn attention to that point, and doubtless some arrangement would be made to remedy the defect in future.

But the most important matter of all was the function of the Home Office in the matter. Here, he thought, was the principal danger they had to guard against. It appeared that a gentleman at the Home Office wrote to the Judge asking whether his mind had been changed by the emergence of particular facts, and when the Judge replied that he could not change his mind on a mere supposition, he did not write back to say it was not a supposition but an actual fact proved by materials in the possession of the Home Office. There was a danger in that indifference. He associated himself with all that was said in the last debate with regard to the Home Office staff. The Home Office was manned by gentlemen of exceptional ability, and in this case there was no bad influence at work except the tendency which existed in all public offices to regard in too high a degree the sanctity of the judiciary. There seemed to be the impression that a Judge must not be troubled. Much as the judiciary of this country was admired, it had to be remembered that they treated the Executive with scant respect when the Executive came under review before them; and that whenever they got the opportunity they treated the legislative body with no respect whatever. Judges existed to be troubled if and when there was any suspicion that a miscarriage of justice had taken place, and they should be troubled not once or twice, but a dozen times, if necessary. If that had been done in this case the mistake would probably have been rectified.

How were such mistakes to be prevented in future? The Committee suggested that something more in the way of legal knowledge was necessary. Legal knowledge alone was not sufficient; knowledge of the laws of evidence was not sufficient. What was wanted was practical experience in the application of the law in actual cases. He was once told—he did not know whether it was still the case—that candidates for the Indian Civil Service, who, if successful, had to discharge duties partly administrative and partly judicial, had, as part of their examination and qualification, to attend at British Courts of Justice and take notes of a certain number of defended cases, and the notes so taken were given in as part of the test of their efficiency. He thought that in that practice there was the germ of the kind of preparation which might be brought in for some portions of the Civil Service. It was fallacious to suppose that the same tests were equally appropriate to all branches of the service. Whereas in the Treasury men of financial ability were required, in the Home Office those qualities which fitted a man, not only for administrative, but also for judicial duties were necessary. He believed that something of that kind was required. Nobody regretted more than I he did the lamentable miscarriage of justice that took place in this case, but he did not think there was any occasion for panic.

THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. COCHRANE,) Ayrshire, N.

said he thought that his hon. and learned friend the Member for Stretford had been a little bit harsh in dealing with some of the officials of the Home Office. His hon. and learned friend was of opinion that the discovery that Smith was a Jew, and that Beck was not, should have convinced them, not only that Smith and Beck were different persons, but that Beck was innocent. He had also thrown a great deal of cold water upon the value of handwriting evidence and the evidence of handwriting experts. It appeared to him that that was the key to the position. The moment it was brought to the attention of the Home Office that there was a probability that Beck and Smith were not the same persons, that Smith was a Jew and that Beck was not, they at once made inquiries and found that that was the fact. It was discovered that Beck and Smith were not the same person; but, of course, they had then to go back upon the handwriting, and the whole case rested upon the similarity of the handwriting. It was said that if the writer of the letter in 1877 was the same as the writer in 1896, and if Beck could not have been in that particular country at that time because he was in Peru, therefore Beck could not have been the person who committed the crime. Therefore, his hon. and learned friend brought them back to the handwriting. The Committee said, "Look at these documents; any man in the street could see that they were in the same handwriting." It was notorious to hon. Members and to his hon. and learned friend that there was nothing more misleading than expert evidence in regard to handwriting. He did not think there was any blame whatever to be attached to those who preferred to accept the direct evidence of ten witnesses—he believed there were more witnesses willing to come forward and give similar evidence—who came into the witness box and said, "That is the man who committed the fraud. "No doubt his hon. and learned friend himself would admit that in ninety-nine cases out of 100 he would prefer the direct identification of ten witnesses to any amount of documentary evidence as to the similarity of handwriting. Perhaps he might be allowed to look back at the history of the case. In 1877 these frauds began. How was Smith convicted? Exactly as Beck was convicted in 1896. He was convicted on the same documents and the same direct evidence and handwriting; and who doubted that Smith was guilty? Smith admitted himself that in 1877 he was guilty, although he did not admit that he was guilty in 1896.

MR. MARKHAM (Nottinghamshire, Mansfield)

Does the hon. Gentleman know that the closure falls at ten o'clock, and that not a word has been said on this side of the House?

MR. COCHRANE

said he had no desire to stand in the way of hon. Members opposite, but he wished to point out that the Judge, in his letter, said that it did not matter whether Beck and Smith were the same person or different persons, and that he was satisfied on the evidence that came before him that Beck was the guilty person. In the circumstances he thought that less than justice had been done to the officials of the Home Office. It was extremely hard to pass censure upon a board of officials who had not had an opportunity of being heard. Let him add that he did not think there existed a more zealous, painstaking—

MR. SWIFT MACNEILL

Oh, yes. Agreed, agreed.

MR. COCHRANE

said he thought the hon. Member for South Donegal was a little ungracious in his interruptions. These officials had no opportunity of being heard before the Committee, and it was very hard on them that they should be so severely censured. To censure these officials in such a harsh manner was a very serious matter indeed. He felt that extremely keenly, and the generous speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Fife was of quite a different tone to the interruptions of hon. Gentlemen opposite. He would not stand any longer in the way of hon. Members opposite. What they all desired was that similar cases should not be liable to occur in future. All who heard the statement made the other night by the Secretary of State for the Home Department knew that he was prepared to meet every one of the points raised by the Committee, and the result of that must be that such cases would not be likely to occur in future.

MR. SWIFT MACNEILL

said that in the case of Mr. Beck there had been an awful and scandalous miscarriage of justice, and he wished the hon. Member for the Hallam Division had abstained from lecturing the House in the manner he had done as to the way in which business was conducted at the Home Office. The documents were never brought to the knowledge of the late Viscount Ridley, the then Home Secretary. Everything was discussed and dealt with by the subordinate officials, who ought to have brought the case to the knowledge of the responsible Minister. The hon. Member for the Hallam Division was Under-Secretary when Viscount Llandaff was Home Secretary, and their tenure of office was characterised by a great miscarriage of justice in the case of Mrs. Maybrick. She ought to have been hanged or let go free. It had been stated again and again that the Beck case was unparalleled, but he was not at all satisfied that there were not cases of a similar nature from time to time. The late Sir William Harcourt, in 1883, when Home Secretary, brought forward a Bill with the object of establishing a Criminal Appeal Court. Lord James of Hereford stated that it was within his knowledge that a man had been twice convicted of offences of which he was innocent. Cases where innocent persons were convicted were of frequent occurrence. He could not help contrasting the generosity with which Mr. Beck had been treated in the matter of compensation with the small and utterly inadequate payments made to people in Ireland who had been convicted on the evidence of perjurers connected with the police and sentenced to long terms of imprisonment. The grievance of those who had suffered wrongful imprisonment in Ireland was aggravated in some cases by the fact that the perjurers who had brought about the miscarriage of justice received what were called compassionate payments in order that the police force might be relieved of them

MR. LOUGH (Islington, W.)

said that this discussion afforded a deplorable illustration of the effect of the closure. It was a great pity that instead of walking through the division lobbies they could not go on a little longer with the discussion of this matter. His complaint was that the Home Secretary had not made the slightest attempt to satisfy public opinion in regard to this gross miscarriage of justice. In the two debates which had taken place on the subject compliments had been paid to the police and the Home Office, as though, in the conduct of these Departments, everything was for the best in the best of all possible worlds. The Report of the Committee of Inquiry contained the following— And though it is possibly beyond out province to suggest it, may not the time have come for abolishing the anomaly of pardoning a man who never ought to have been convicted, and a simpler remedy adopted of quashing the conviction on motion by the Attorney -General and entering an acquittal as of Record? Why did not the right hon. Gentleman do something to carry out that recommendation?

The system of identification, as illustrated by what occurred in this case, showed that changes were required in order to guard against the danger of injustice being done to innocent persons when arrested on suspicion. The representatives of the Home Office had not given the slightest assurance that such a grave miscarriage of justice would be avoided in future.

And, it being Ten of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 16th March, put that Question.

The House divided:—Ayes, 239; Noes, 195. (Division List No. 83.)

AYES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Colomb, Rt. Hn. Sir John C. R. Gray, Ernest (West Ham)
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Colston, Chas. Ed. H. Athole Greene, Henry D (Shrewsbury)
Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Gretton, John
Allsopp, Hon. George Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Greville, Hon. Ronald
Anson, Sir William Reynell Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.) Groves, James Grimble
Arkwright, John Stanhope Cripps, Charles Alfred Halsey. Rt. Hn. Thomas F.
Arrol, Sir William Crossley, Rt. Hn. Sir Savile Hambro, Charles Eric
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Cubitt, Hon. Henry Hamilton, Marq. of(L'nd'nderry
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H Cust, Henry John C. Hare, Thomas Le gh
Bagot, Capt Josceline FitzRoy Dalrymple, Sir Charles Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th
Bain, Colonel James Robert Davenport, William Bromley Haslam, Sir Alfred S.
Baird, John George Alexander Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham) Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley
Balcarres, Lord Denny, Colonel Heath, Sir Jas. (Staffords. N. W.)
Balfour, RtHn. A. J. (Manch'r) Dickson, Charles Scott Heaton, John Henniker
Balfour, RtHn. Gerald W. (Leeds Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred. Dixon Helder, Augustus
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Doxford, Sir William Theodore Hickman, Sir Alfred
Banner, John S. Harmood Duke, Henry Edward Hogg, Lindsay
Bartley, Sir George C. T. Dyke, Rt Hn Sir Wm. Hart Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside)
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Hornby, Sir William Henry
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W. Hoult, Joseph
Bignold, Sir Arthur Faber, George Denison (York) Howard, J. (Kent, Faversham)
Bigwood, James Fardell, Sir T. George Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)
Bill, Charles Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward Hozier, Hn. Jas. Henry Cecil
Bingham, Lord Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Mancr) Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R)
Blundell, Colonel Henry Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse
Bond, Edward Finch, Rt. Hn. George H. Jessel, Captain Herb. Merton
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith Finlay, Sir R. B. (Inv'rn'ssB'ghs) Kennaway, Rt Hn Sir John H
Bowles, Lt-Col. H. F. (Middles'x) Fisher, William Hayes Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)
Brassey, Albert Fison, Frederick William Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.
Brodrick, Rt. Hn. St. John FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose Kerr, John
Brotherton, Edward Allen Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon Keswick, William
Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh.) Flannery, Sir Fortescue Kimber, Sir Henry
Burdett-Coutts, W. Flower, Sir Ernest King, Sir Henry Seymour
Butcher, John George Forster, Henry William Knowles, Sir Lees
Carson, Rt. Hon Sir Edw. H. Galloway, William Johnson Laurie, Lieut. -General
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire Gardner, Ernest Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Garfit, William Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H. Lawson, Hn. H. L. W. (Mile End
Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton) Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. Lawson, JohnGrant(Yorks, NR
Chapman, Edward Gordon, Hn. J. E(Elgin&Nairn Lee, Arthur H. (Hants Fareham
Clive, Captain Percy A. Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'r H'mlets Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)
Coates, Edward Feetham Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Legge, Col. Hn. Heneage
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Goschen, Hn. George Joachim Lockwood, Lieut-Col. A. R.
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Goulding, Edward Alfred Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Callings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Graham, Henry Robert Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)
Long, RtHn. Walter (Bristol, S) Pierpoint, Robert Stanley, Rt Hn. Lord (Lanes.)
Lonsdale, John Brownlee Pilkington, Colonel Richard Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart
Lowe, Francis William Platt-Higgins, Frederick Stock, James Henry
Lowther, C. (Climb., Eskdale) Plummer, Sir Walter R. Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Lyttelton, Rt. Hon Alfred Pretyman, Ernest George Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Macdona, John Cumming Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G(Oxf'd Univ.)
MacIver, David (Liverpool) Purvis, Robert Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Maconochie, A. W. Pym, C. Guy Thornton, Percy M.
M'Calmont, Colonel James Quilter, Sir Cuthbert Tomlinson, Sir Win. Edw. M
M'Iver, Sir Lewis(Edinburgh W.) Randles, John S. Tritton, Charles Ernest
Majendie, James A. H. Rankin, Sir James Tuff, Charles
Manners, Lord Cecil Rasch, Sir Frederic Came Turnour, Viscount
Martin, Richard Biddulph Ratcliff, R. F. Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Massey-Main waring, Hn. W. F. Reid, James (Greenock) Walker, Col. William Hall
Maxwell, RtHn Sir H. E(Wigton) Remnant, James Farquharson Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. H.
Maxwell, W. JH. (Dumfriesshire) Renshaw, Sir Charle Bine Warde, Colonel C. E.
Mildmay, Francis Bingham Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) Webb, Colonel William George
Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G. Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Welby, Lt.-Col. A. CE(Taunton)
Molesworth, Sir Lewis Rolleston, Sir John F. L. Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts.
Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants. Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne)
Morpeth, Viscount Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Morrell, George Herbert Round, Rt. Hon. James Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Morrison, James Archibald Rutherford, John (Lancashire) Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)
Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Mount, William Arthur Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H. (Yorks.)
Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. Samuel, Sir H. S. (Limehouse) Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Sandys, Lieut. -Col. Thos. Myles Wortley, Rt. Hn C. B. Stuart
Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Seely, Charles Hilton(Lincoln) Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Myers, William Henry Seton-Karr, Sir Henry Wylie, Alexander
Nicholson, William Graham Sloan, Thomas Henry Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.
Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury) Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.) Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Parkes, Ebenezer Smith, HC(North'm b. Tyneside)
Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington) Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Sir
Pemberton. John S. G. Spear, John Ward Alexander Acland-Hood
Percy, Earl Stanley, Hon, A. (Ormskirk) and Viscount Valentia.
NOES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Harmsworth, R. Leicester
Allen, Charles P. Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan) Harrington, Timothy
Ambrose, Robert Delany, William Harwood, George
Ashton, Thomas Gair Devlin, Chas. Ramsay(Galway Hayden, John Patrick
Barlow, John Emmott Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Herme, Norval Watson
Barran, Rowland Hirst Dobbie, Joseph Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H.
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Donelan, Captain A. Higham, John Sharpe
Bell, Richard Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)
Benn, John Williams Duffy, William J. Horniman, Frederick John
Blake, Edward Duncan, J. Hastings Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)
Boland, John Dunn, Sir William Jacoby, James Alfred
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Ellice, CaptEC. (S Andrw'sBghs) Johnson, John
Brigg, John Emmott, Alfred Joicey, Sir James
Bright, Allan Heywood Esmonde, Sir Thomas Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea
Broadhurst, Henry Evans, Sir F. H. (Maidstone) Jones, Leif (Appleby)
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Jones Wm. (Carnarvonshire)
Burke, E. Haviland Eve, Harry Trelawney Jordan, Jeremiah
Burns, John Fenwick, Charles Kearley, Hudson E.
Burt, Thomas Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W)
Buxton, Sydney Charles Field, William Kilbride, Denis
Caldwell, James Findlay, Alex. (Lanark, N. E.) Kitson, Sir James
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Flavin, Michael Joseph Labouchere, Henry
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Flynn, James Christopher Lambert, George
Causton, Richard Knight Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Langley, Batty
Cawley, Frederick Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)
Channing, Francis Allston Freeman-Thomas, Captain F. Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)
Cheetham, John Frederick Gilhooly, James Layland-Barratt, Francis
Clancy, John Joseph Gladstone, RtHn. Herbert John Leese, Sir J. F. (Aeecrington)
Condon, Thomas Joseph Goddard, Daniel Ford Levy, Maurice
Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark) Griffith, Ellis J. Lewis, John Herbert
Cremer, William Randal Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Lloyd-George, David
Crombie, John William Haldane, Rt. Hn. Richard B. Lundon, W,
Crooks, William Hammond, John Lyell, Charles Henry
Dalziel, James Henry Hardie, J. Keir(MerthyrTydvil) MacNeill, John Gordon Swift
MacVeagh, Jeremiah Power, Patrick Joseph Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
M'Crae, George Price, Robert John Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)
M'Kean, John Priestley, Arthur Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)
M'Kenna, Reginald Rea, Russell Tomkinson, James
M'Laren, Sir Chas. Benjamin Reckitt, Harold James Toulmin, George
Mitchell, Ed. (Fermanagh, N.) Reddy, M. Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Mooney, John J. Redmond, John E. (Waterford Ure, Alexander
Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Richards, Thos. (W. Monm'th Wallace, Robert
Moss, Samuel Rickett, J. Compton Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Moulton, John Fletcher Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Murphy, John Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Nannetti, Joseph P. Roche, John Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)
Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Roe, Sir Thomas Weir, James Galloway
Norman, Henry Runeiman, Walter White, George (Norfolk)
Norton, Capt. Cecil William Russell, T. W. White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Nussey, Thomas Willans Samuel, Herb. L. (Cleveland) White, Patrick (Meath, North)
O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid.) Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight) Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Shackleton, David James Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.) Sheehy, David Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Shipman, Dr. John G. Wills, Arthur Walters(N Dorset
O'Dowd, John Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) Wilson, F. W. (Norfolk, Mid.
O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) Slack, John Bamford Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N. Smith, Samuel (Flint) Wilson, John (Falkirk)
O'Malley, William Soames, Arthur Wellesley Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)
O'Mara, James Soares, Ernest J. Wood, James
O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Spencer, RtHn. C. R. (Northants) Woodhouse, Sir JT(Huddersf'd)
Partington, Oswald Stevenson, Francis S. Young, Samuel
Paulton, James Mellor Strachey, Sir Edward Yoxall, James Henry
pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) Sullivan, Donal
perks, Robert William Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) TELLERS FOR TNE NOES. —Mr. Lough and Mr. Markham.
Pirie, Duncan V. Tennant, Harold John

Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order o the House of the 16th March, then put forthwith the Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in all the remaining Resolutions reported

in respect of the Civil Service Supplementary Estimates. "

The House divided:—Ayes, 251; Noes, 198. (Division List No. 84.)

AYES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Brassey, Albert Davenport, William Bromley
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham)
Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden Brotherton, Edward Allen Denny, Colonel
Allsopp, Hon. George Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh. Dickson, Charles Scott
Anson, Sir William Reynell Bull, William James Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph
Arkwright, John Stanhope Burdett-Coutts, W. Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon
Arrol, Sir William Butcher, John George Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-
Atkinson, Rt. Hon John Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H. Doxford, Sir William Theodore
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. SirH. Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh. Duke, Henry Edward
Bagot, Capt. JoscelineFitzRoy Cayzer, Sir Charles William Dyke. Rt Hn. Sir Wm. Hart
Bailey, James (Walworth) Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Egerton, Hn. A. de Tatton
Bain, Colonel James Robert Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)
Baird. John George Alexander Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton) Faber, George Denison (York)
Balcarres, Lord Chapman, Edward Fardell, Sir T. George
Balfour, Rt Hn A. J. (Manch'r) Clive, Captain Percy A. Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward
Balfour, RtHn Gerald W(Leeds) Coates, Edward Feetham Fergusson. Rt. Hn Sir J(Manc'r
Balfour, Kenneth R (Christch. Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Cohen, Benjamin Louis Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.
Banner, John S. Harmood- Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Finlay, SirR. B. (Inv'rn'ssB'ghs
Bartley, Sir George C. T. Colomb, Rt. Hn. Sir John C. R Fisher, William Hayes
Beach, RtHnSir Michael Hicks Colston, Chas. Ed. H. Athole Fison, Frederick William
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Compton, Lord Alwyne FitzGerald. Sir Robert Penrose-
Bignold, Sir Arthur Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Fitzroy, Hn. Edward. Algernon
Bigwood, James Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Flannery, Sir Fortescue
Bill, Charles Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S. Flower, Sir Ernest
Bingham, Lord Cripps, Charles Alfred Forster, Henry William
Blundell, Colonel Henry Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Galloway, William Johnson
Bond, Edward Cubitt, Hon. Henry Gardner, Ernest
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith Cust, Henry John C. Garfit, William
Bowles, Lt-Col H. F. (Middlesex) Dalrymple, Sir Charles Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.
Godson, Sir Augustus Fred. Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Gordon, Hn. J. E (Elgin&Nairn) Long, Col Chas. W. (Evesham Robertson, Herb. (Hackney)
Gordon, Maj Evans(T'rH'mlets Long, RtHn Walter (Bristol, S.) Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon Lonsdale, John Brownlee Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye
Goschen, Hn. George Joachim Lowe, Francis William Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Goulding, Edward Alfred Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) Round, Rt. Hon. James
Graham, Henry Robert Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Macdona, John Cumming Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Greene, H. D. (Shrewsbury) MacIver, David (Liverpool) Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Gretton, John M'Calmont, Colonel James Samuel, Sir H. S. (Limehouse)
Greville, Hn. Ronald M'Iver, SirLewis(Edinburgh W) Sandys, Lieut-Col. T. Myles
Groves, James Grimble Majendie, James A. H. Seely, Chas. Hilton (Lincoln)
Halsey, Rt. Hn. Thomas F. Manners, Lord Cecil Seton-Karr, Sir Henry
Hambro, Charles Eric Martin, Richard Biddulph Sloan, Thomas Henry
Hamilton, Marq. of(L'nd'nderry Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W F Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)
Hare, Thomas Leigh Maxwell, RtHnSirH. E(Wigt'n Smith, HC(North'mbTyneside
Harris, F. Leverton(Tynem'th) Maxwell, W. J. H(Dunfriesshire) Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)
Haslam, Sir Alfred S. Mildmay, Francis Bingham Spear, John Ward
Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley) Molesworth, Sir Lewis Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk
Heath, Sir Jas. (Staffords, N. W Montagu, Hon. J. Scott(Hants) Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lancs)
Heaton, John Henniker Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Helder, Augustus Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) Stock, James Henry
Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Morpeth, Viscount Strutt, Hon. Chas. Hedley
Hickman, Sir Alfred Morrell, George Herbert Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Hogg, Lindsay Morrison, James Archibald Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G(Oxf'd Univ)
Hope, J. F(Sheffield, Brightside) Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Thornton, Percy M.
Hornby, Sir Wm. Henry Mount, William Arthur Tomlinson, Sir Win. Ed. M.
Hoult, Joseph Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. Tritton, Charles Ernest
Howard, J. (Kent, Faversham Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) Tuff, Charles
Howard, J(Midd., Tottenham) Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Turnour, Viscount
Hozier, Hn. James HenryCecil Myers, William Henry Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Hunt, Rowland Nicholson, William Graham Walker, Col. William Hall
Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.) Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury) Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. H.
Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Parkes, Ebenezer Warde, Colonel C. E.
Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington) Webb, Colonel William George
Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton Peel, Hn. Wm. R. Wellesley Welby, Lt. ColA. C. E (Taunton
Kennaway, RtHn. Sir John H. Pemberton, John S. G. Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts
Kenyon, Hn. G. T. (Denbigh) Percy, Earl Whiteley, H. (Ashton undLyne)
Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col W Pierpoint, Robert Whitmore, Chas. Algernon
Kerr, John Pilkington, Colonel Richard Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Keswick, William Platt-Higgins, Frederick Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Kimber, Sir Henry Plummer, Sir Walter R. Wilson, A. Stanley (York. E. R)
King, Sir H. Seymour Pretyman, Ernest George Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Knowles, Sir Lees Pryce-Jones, Lt. Col Edward Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H(Yorks.)
Laurie, Lieut. -General Purvis, Robert Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Pym, C. Guy Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart
Lawrence, SirJoseph(Monm'th Quilter, Sir Cuthbert Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Randies, John S. Wylie, Alexander
Lawson, Hn. H. L W(MileEnd) Rankin, Sir James Wyndham-Quin, Col W. H.
Lawson, JohnGrant(YorksN. R Rasch, Sir Frederic Came Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Lee, A. H. (Hants, Fareham) Ratcliff, R. F.
Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Reid, James (Greenock) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir.
Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Remnant, Jas. Farquharson Alexander Acland-Hood
Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine and Viscount Valentia
Lockwood, Lieut. -Col. A. R. Ridley, S. Forde
NOES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) Bolton, Thomas Dolling Clancy, John Joseph
Ainsworth, John Stirling Brigg, John Condon, Thomas Joseph
Allen, Charles P. Bright, Allan Heywood Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)
Ambrose, Robert Broadhurst, Henry Cremer, William Randal
Ashton, Thomas Gair Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Crombie, John William
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herb. Henry Burke, E. Haviland Crooks, William
Atherley-Jones, L. Burt, Thomas Davies, Alfred (Carmartnen)
Barlow, John Emmott Buxton, Sydney Charles Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)
Barran, Rowland Hirst Caldwell, James Delany, William
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway)
Bell, Richard Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Dilke, Rt. Hn. Sir Charles
Benn, John Williams Cawley, Frederick Dobbie, Joseph
Blake, Edward Channing, Francis Allston Donelan, Captain A.
Boland, John Cheetham, John Frederick Douglas, Chas. M. (Lanark)
Duffy, William J. Lough, Thomas Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Duncan, J. Hastings Lundon, W. Schmann, Charles E.
Dunn, Sir William Lyell, Charles Henry Seely, Maj. J. E. B (Isleof Wight)
Ellice, CaptE. C (S Andrw's Bghs) MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Shackleton, David James
Emmott, Alfred MacVeagh, Jeremiah Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)
Esmonde, Sir Thomas M'Crae, George Sheehy, David
Evans, Sir F. H. (Maidstone) M'Kean, John Shipman, D. John G.
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) M'Kenna, Reginald Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Eve, Harry Trelawney M'Laren, Sir Chas. Benjamin Slack, John Bamford
Fenwick, Charles Markham, Arthur Basil Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N) Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Field, William Mooney, John J. Soares, Ernest J.
Findlay, Alex. (Lanark, N. E.) Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Spencer, Rt. HnC. R(Northants
Flavin, Michael Joseph Moss, Samuel Stanhope, Hon. Philip James
Flynn, James Christopher Moulton, John Fletcher Stevenson, Francis S.
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Murphy, John Strachey, Sir Edward
Fowler. Rt. Hn. Sir Henry Nannetti, Joseph P. Sullivan, Donal
Freeman-Thomas, Captain F. Newnes, Sir George Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Fuller, J. M. F. Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Tennant, Harold John
Gilhooly, James Norman, Henry Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E)
Goddard, Daniel Ford Norton, Capt, Cecil William Thomas, DavidAlfred(Merthyr)
Griffiths, Ellis J. Nussey, Thomas Willans Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid) Tomkinson, James
Haldane, Rt, Hon. Richard B. O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Toulmin, George
Hammond, John O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.) Ure, Alexander
Harmsworth, R. Leicester O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Wallace, Robert
Harrington, Timothy O'Dowd, John Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Harwood, George O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Hayden, John Patrick O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon. N.) Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Helme, Norval Watson O'Malley, William Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Hemphill, Rt, Hn. Chas. H. O'Mara, James Weir, James Galloway
Higham, John Sharpe O'Shaughnessy, P. J. White, George (Norfolk)
Hope, John Deans(Fife, West) Partington, Oswald White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Horniman, Frederick John Paulton, James Mellor White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)
Jacoby, James Alfred Perks, Robert William Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Johnson, John Pirie, Duncan, V. Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Joicey, Sir James Power, Patrick Joseph Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea Price, Robert John Wills, Arthur Walters(NDorset
Jones, Leif (Appleby) Priestley, Arthur Wilson, Fred W (Norfolk, Mid.)
Jones, William(Carnarvonshire) Rea, Russell Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Jordan, Jeremiah Reckitt, Harold James Wilson, john (Falkirk)
Kearley, Hudson E. Reddy, M. Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N
Kennedy, VincentP. (Cavan, W) Redmond, John E (Waterford) Wood James
Kilbride, Denis Richards, Thos. (W. Monm'th) Woodhouse, SirJT(Hudd rsfi'd)
Kitson, Sir James Rickett, J. Compton Young, Samuel
Lambert, George Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) Yoxall, James Henry
Langley, Batty Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Robson, William Snowdon TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.
Layland-Barratt, Francis Roche, John Herbert Gladstone and Mr.
Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) Roe, Sir Thomas Causton.
Levy, Maurice Runciman, Walter
Lewis, John Herbert Russell, T. W.