Commons Sitting of 21 March 1905

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  PRIVATE BILLS (STANDING ORDER 63 COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKERlaid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, Standing Order 63 has been complied with, viz.:—London United Tramways (Extension of Time) Bill.
  Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time.

  PRIVATE BILL PETITIONS (STANDING ORDERS NOT COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKERlaid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the Petition for the following Bill, the Standing Orders have not been complied with, viz.:—Malvern Water.
  Ordered, That the Report be referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.

  RAILWAY BILLS (GROUP No. 5).
  Mr. COMPTON RICKETTreported from the Committee on Group No. 5 of Railway Bills; That, for the convenience of Parties, they had adjourned till Monday next, at half-past Eleven of the clock.
  Report to lie upon the Table.
  South Metropolitan Gas Bill. Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table.

PETITION.
  SUGAR TAX.
  Petition from London, for repeal; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  Copy presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, No. 3329 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Light at Oyster Island, Sligo.
  MR. CHARLES McARTHUR: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade if the light at Oyster Island, Sligo, is in the position described in the Admiralty List of Lights for 1905; and, if not, will he state the error, how long the position has been incorrectly described, and if he will cause the error to be rectified immediately.
  (Answered by Mr. Bonar Law.) I am informed by the Commissioners of Irish Lights that the lighthouse in question is in the position described in the Admiralty List of Lights for 1905.

  Irish Lights Tender "Alexandra."
  MR. CHARLES McARTHUR: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade if the Irish lights tender "Princess Alexandra" has fulfilled all the conditions of the specification; if this vessel is now in the builders' hands; and, if so, for what purpose, and for how long.
  (Answered by Mr. Bonar Law.) I am informed by the Commissioners of Irish Lights that their new tender the "Alexandra," not "Princess Alexandra," has been in the builders' hands since December for some alterations to enable her to fulfil speed conditions, and that she will probably be ready by the end of the present month, or the middle of April at latest.

  Sectoring of Light at Roancarrig.
  MR. CHARLES McARTHUR: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade if the sectoring of the light at Roancarrig now agrees with that described on the Admiralty charts.
  (Answered by Mr. Bonar Law.) I am informed by the Commissioners of Irish Lights that the sectoring of this light is

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  in agreement with that described on the Admiralty charts.

  Superannuation Allowances of the Light- house Boards.
  MR. CHARLES McARTHUR: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade whether he will furnish the names, particulars of service, and amounts received by the pensioners of the three Lighthouse Boards as included under the heading of superannuation allowances in the lighthouse accounts.
  (Answered by Mr. Bonar Law.) I shall be happy to supply the hon. Member with the information as soon as I receive it from the lighthouse authorities.

  Engagements and Discharges of British Seamen at Continental Ports.
  MR. NANNETTI: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade whether he can state how many sailors and firemen were engaged on British ships at the following ports on the Continent of Europe during the year 1904, namely:—Bordeaux,

  Seamen engaged.

  Seamen discharged.

  British.

  Foreign.

  British.

  Foreign.

  Havre:—

  1903

  28

  82

  111

  82

  1904

  51

  91

  85

  95

  Dunkirk:

  1903

  156

  468

  469

  325

  1904

  81

  321

  288

  247

  Antwerp:—

  1903

  3,495,

  12,145

  4,958

  10,398

  1904

  3,227

  10,855

  4,323

  9,649

  Rotterdam:—

  1903

  1,836

  5,004

  3,317

  4,278

  1904

  1,642

  4,581

  2,914

  3,799

  Havre, Dunkirk, Antwerp, Rotterdam Bremen, and Hamburg; and whether he will also state the number of sailors and firemen engaged at the above-mentioned ports on British ships during the year 1903, and state how many nationalities they include.
  MR. NANNETTI: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade whether he can state how many sailors and firemen were discharged from British ships at the following ports on the Continent of Europe during the year 1904, namely:—Bordeaux, Havre, Dunkirk, Antwerp, Rotterdam, Bremen, and Hamburg; and whether he will also state the number of sailors and firemen discharged at the above-mentioned ports from British ships during the same period, and how many nationalities they include.
  (Answered by Mr. Bonar Law.) I propose to answer these two Questions, put by the hon. Member, together. The engagements and discharges were as follows at Havre, Dunkirk, Antwerp, and Rotterdam:—
  I am not in a position to give any statistics as regards the engagements and discharges at Bordeaux. As regards Hamburg and Bremen and Bremerhaven

  Seamen engaged.

  Seamen discharged.

  Hamburg:—

  1903

  5,322

  5,662

  1904

  6,077

  6,454

  Bremen and Bremerhaven:—

  1903

  688

  851

  1904

  1,151

  1,128

  I am informed that between 70 and 75 per cent, of the seamen engaged at Hamburg and Bremen and Bremerhaven were foreigners, chiefly Germans and Scandinavians. As regards the number of nationalities included, the seamen engaged at Havre in 1903 were of fifteen nationalities, and those discharged of thirteen nationalities; in 1904 there were eleven and twelve nationalities respectively. At Dunkirk the seamen engaged in 1903 were of eighteen nationalities, those discharged of nineteen nationalities; in 1904 those engaged were of eighteen nationalities, and those discharged of eighteen nationalities.

  Report of Accident on s.s. "Spheroid."
  MR. NANNETTI: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade whether he can state if any report was made to the Board of Trade by the master of the British steamship "Spheroid," as provided by Section 425 of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, respecting the accident which occurred on this steamer on September 16th, 1904, whereby a seaman named Bodtman was severely scalded in consequence of the defective condition of the ship's boiler; and, if not, whether the President of the Board of Trade will cause inquiry to be made.
  (Answered by Mr. Bonar Law.) No report under Section 425 of the Merchant
  the statistics in my possession do not distinguish between British and foreign seamen; the engagements and discharges at these ports were as follows:—
  Shipping Act, 1894, has been received by the Board of Trade in the case to which the hon. Member refers, but I am informed that an entry of the accident by which a seaman was scalded last September was made in the official log. On the return of the "Spheroid" to the United Kingdom further inquiries shall be made.

  British Seamen discharged at Rotterdam, Antwerp, and Hamburg—Wages paid— Amount transmitted by Board of Trade.
  MR. NANNETTI: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade if he can state the amount of money paid to seamen on their discharge from British ships at the following ports, namely, Rotterdam, Antwerp, and Hamburg, during the year 1904; and whether ho can state the amount of money transmitted by the Board of Trade to this country from the ports named during the same period.
  (Answered by Mr. Bonar Law.) The amount of money paid to seamen on their discharge from British ships at the ports referred to during the year 1904 was: at Rotterdam, £62,421; at Antwerp, £104,099; at Hamburg, £56,139; and the amounts received by the British Consuls for transmission to this country during the same period were: Rotterdam, £19,387; Antwerp, £30,368; and Hamburg, £20,233.

  "Ovingdean Grange"—Replacing of British Crew by Foreigners.
  MR. NANNETTI: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the steamship "Ovingdean Grange" engaged a crew at Cardiff on May 20th, 1904, and, after making a voyage to the River Plate and other places, discharged part cargo at London and Hull and the remainder at Newcastle, and then proceeded to Tyne Dock and loaded bunker coal for Antwerp, where the crew was paid off and foreigners shipped in their places; and whether, in view of the effect of this practice in displacing British labour by foreigners, he intends to take any steps to prevent, as far as possible, the engagement of foreign crews for British ships at Continental ports.
  (Answered by Mr. Honor Law.) The movements of the "Ovingdean Grange" are correctly stated in the Question. The Board of Trade have no information as to the discharge of part of the cargo at London or Hull. The crew for the first voyage consisted of twenty-one British and nine foreign seamen, for the second of thirteen British and nineteen foreign seamen. We have no power to take any steps such as are indicated in the last Question.

  Crown Lands at Claygate, Surrey.
  MR. TREVELYAN: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury how much of the woodland south of Claygate, near Esher, in Surrey, belongs to the Crown, to what use the woods are at present put, and why the public are refused access to them.
  (Answered by Mr. Victor Cavendish.) Some 800 acres of enclosed woodland south of Claygate form part of a larger estate belonging to the Crown. The woods are at present appropriated for the growth of timber and underwood, and the shooting over them is let. The admission of the public to the woods would involve damage to the timber and underwood and a consequent loss of revenue to the Crown.

  Limited Liability Companies and Poison Regulations.
  MR. REMNANT: To ask the Secretary of State for the
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  Home Department whether, in view of the fact that limited liability companies are not amenable to the Poison Regulations prescribed by the Pharmacy Act, 1868, and approved by the Privy Council, and to the statement of the President of the Board of Trade that the question of amending the law to remedy this evil would not be germane to a Companies Bill, he will take into consideration the expediency of recommending that facilities be given during the present session for the passing of the Pharmacy Acts Amendment Bill, which is designed to place companies in the same position as individuals in regard to the sale of poisons.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.) I regret that I cannot promise facilities to the Bill referred to by the hon. Member. I am not in a position to add anything to the Answer which I gave on March 14th † to the hon. Member for Edinburgh and St. Andrew's Universities.

  New Post Office at Dewsbury.
  MR. RUNCIMAN: To ask the Postmaster-General whether any, and, if so, what steps have been taken with regard to the proposed new post office at Dewsbury, and how far the present premises are suitable, and what increased accommodation it is proposed to provide in the near future.
  (Answered by Lord Stanley.) A site has been acquired for a new post office at Dewsbury; the plans are practically settled, and though financial exigencies will, it is feared, not permit of the building being begun this year, there is every hope that it will be found possible to begin it next year. The present office is no longer large enough and it cannot be satisfactorily extended.

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  Naval Prize of War Bill.
  MR. GARDNER: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether it is proposed to introduce the Bill consolidating the various Acts relating to naval prizes of war.
  † See (4) Debates, exlii., 13 3.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. PRETYMAN, Suffolk, Wood-bridge): This Bill has already been introduced in another place.

  H.M.S. "Kent."
  MR. GARDNER: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he can give any information as to the stranding of H.M.S. "Kent" in the Firth of Forth.
  MR. PRETYMAN: The "Kent" dragged her anchors during a heavy gale and grounded off St. Margaret's Hope. She was refloated without damage and has returned to her service. The usual official inquiry will follow in due course, when the circumstances will be fully investigated according to the custom of the service.

  South African War—Destruction of Stores, etc.
  DR. MACNAMARA: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the circumstances attaching to the destruction of emergency rations and meat and vegetable rations in South Africa, as stated at page 257 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General, were such as to have called in any instance or instances for the striking off the War Office contractors' lists of any one or more of the firms supplying the rations in question; and, if so, will he give the names of such firm or firms, with the reason for removal.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. ARNOLD-FORSTER, Belfast, W.): As regards emergency rations, it is not proposed to order any more rations of the same description. As regards meat and vegetable rations, the treatment to which they were subjected, which was exceptional and, owing to war conditions, unavoidable, rendered it impossible to prove that the contractors were in any way responsible for the deterioration of the supplies. The rations were put up in this country under the supervision of the Quartermaster-General and satisfactorily passed inspection before shipment. Under these circumstances the question of the removal of the firms from the list does not arise.
  DR. MACNAMARA: Am I to understand that no contractors' names have
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  been removed from the list on account of the condition of the rations sent to South Africa?
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: No. I am informed that is the case.
  DR. MACNAMARA: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he can now say whether it will be possible to lay Papers showing the instances in which rations, stores, and supplies generally despatched to South Africa during 1899, 1900, and 1901 were destroyed or returned as unfit in quality or short in amount, with the reason for their destruction or return, and the names of the contractors supplying such stores in each case in which the loss involved was £1,000 or upwards.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: I have given directions for the preparation of the Return giving the details asked for, so far as the information in our possession admits, but I am not sure that in all cases the particulars asked for were placed on record by the military boards who condemned the supplies.
  DR. MACNAMARA: Will the Return be laid in the terms of the Question?
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: Yes, if the hon. Member will move for it.

  Imperial Yeomanry Committee Grant.
  DR. MACNAMARA: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the War Office has asked for the details and two vouchers referred to at page xiii. of the Third Report (1904) of the Committee of Public Accounts as not being forthcoming in respect of a sum of £460,000 out of the total sum granted, £1,265,000, to the Imperial Yeomanry Committee; if so, what reply has been received; and, if not, whether application will now be made for these details and vouchers.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: The statement in question would appear to be based on replies given by the late Comptroller and Auditor-General. I understand that vouchers are, as a matter of fact, in existence, although they have not been rendered to the War Office. The arrangement with the

  637
  Imperial Yeomany Committee was the issue to them of the Capitation Grant for each. Yeoman raised and equipped, the administration of the Capitation Grant being left to the Imperial Yeomanry Committee. Following the practice in regard to the Volunteer Capitation Grant, no vouchers would be called for to show in detail how the Committee in their discretion expended the grant.
  DR. MACNAMARA: Will application now be made for these details?
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: No, Sir The transaction has been long closed and the ordinary procedure followed.

  Small Arms Ammunition.
  DR. MACNAMARA: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether any attempt has been made to trace the origin of manufacture of the 50,000,000 rounds of small arms ammunition returned from South Africa at the close of the war as unfit; and whether it is proposed to recover the £1,200 per million rounds which is estimated as the cost of remaking the 30,000,000 rounds of this ammunition still in existence.
  MR. ARNOLD - FORSTER: This ammunition was recovered from the field after issue; it was therefore regarded as unfit, not from any inherent defect in manufacture, but owing to suspicion of possible damage having occurred in course of the operations. No question, therefore, arises of tracing the origin of manufacture. Indeed, it may be assumed that the rounds referred to came from all the various sources of manufacture, Government factories and trade alike.

  Strength of the Infantry.
  MAJOR SEELY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War what is the number of infantry now quartered in the British Isles, India, South Africa, Egypt, and other stations.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: It is not usual to publish details of the actual strengths of the troops quartered at home and abroad, and I am not prepared in the present instance to depart from this practice. The general Annual
  638
  Report, which will be issued in a few days, gives the numbers asked for by the hon. Member on October 1st, 1904.

  The Home-service Army and the Volunteers.
  MAJOR SEELY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether it is intended to proceed with the formation, of a home-service Army, together with a reduction of the Volunteers.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: With respect to the first part of the hon. Member's Question, I have nothing at present to add to the statements made by me in the Memorandum accompanying the Estimates. It is proposed to effect a reduction in the strength of the Volunteer force.
  MAJOR SEELY: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is a reduction in actual numbers or in establishment, or in both?
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: It is in both; it must take place very gradually.

  Colonial Agents-General and Supply of Stores for South Africa.
  SIR JAMES WOODHOUSE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether any commission or remuneration was paid or agreed to be paid to the Agents-General of the Colonies or other and what persons, in respect of orders for the supply of stores to the War Office for South Africa; and, if so, what are the particulars.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: No commission or remuneration of any sort was paid by the War Office to the Agents-General or any persons in respect of orders placed with the Colonies by the War Office for supplies to South Africa.
  DR. MACNAMARA: Was any commission paid by the contractors to the Agents-General?
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: I cannot say.

  War Office Contractors.
  CAPTAIN NORTON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for

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  War if he can state the names of the firms referred to in the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General, under the heading "Sales of Surplus Supplies, as A, B, and C, respectively."
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: The names of the firms are as follow:—A, Messrs. E. Stepney; B, Messrs. Meyer & Co.; C, Messrs. Wilson and Worthington. This is the order in which they have been given on each former occasion.

  Reserve of Officers.
  MR. SOAMES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the name of a captain, late of the Royal Scots Regiment, appears in the Army List in the Reserve of Officers, although he has been dead more than nine years; and whether any, and what, steps are taken to keep the list of Reserve of Officers up to date.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: The list of the Reserve of Officers is carefully revised and checked once a quarter, but it is impossible to keep in touch with officers who retire "receiving a gratuity," unless they report themselves each year in accordance with the provisions of Article 662, Royal Warrant. The officer referred to retired "receiving a gratuity" on the 26th April, 1893, but failed to report himself to the War Office after that date. This "gratuity" class of retired officer will cease to exist during 1906.

  Whitchurch Range.
  MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the cottages at the back of Whitchurch Range, which preclude rifle practice there, were in existence at the time of the construction of the range, and what was the date of that construction; if so, whether the officer responsible for the plan has been censured or his promotion retarded.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: The cottages alluded to were known by the officers responsible to be in existence at the time of the construction of the range, but they were not considered to be within the danger area. The range was constructed in June, 1902. Recent experiments
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  with the Lee-Metford rifle have given a greater knowledge of the powers and extent of ricochet shots than was possessed at the time this range was constructed. Further inquiry will be made as to the degree of responsibility attaching to the officers concerned in the selection of the range.
  MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSE: May I ask whether the name of the officer who constructed this range at a cost of £5,000 is known? When I last put the Question the right hon. Gentleman promised to make inquiry.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: Of course the name is known, but I am very loth to mention the names of officers.
  MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSE: Do I understand that inquiry will be made as to whether this officer is blameworthy?
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: I have said that inquiry will be made.
  MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSE: Then I will put the Question again.

  Surplus Tobacco from South Africa.
  CAPTAIN NORTON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he can explain why 980,186 lbs. of tobacco, sent home from South Africa, was disposed of at 2d. per lb., seeing that it was bought at 9½d. per lb., and that 3,000,000 lbs. of similar tobacco was sold to the troops in South Africa at Is. to Is. 6d. per lb., as set forth in the last Report from the Committee of Public Accounts.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: The tobacco sent home consisted of such surplus tobacco, some of it partially damaged, as could not be sold to the troops and for which no offer could be obtained in South Africa. I am informed that every endeavour was made to secure the widest competition in this country, and the prices realised were the best obtainable.

  Enfield Small Arms Factory—Discharges.
  COLONEL LOCK WOOD: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the notice

  641
  posted on March 16th at the Enfield Small Arms Factory that all men of less than seven years service would be discharged on March 31st, he would consider as an alternative the propriety of reducing the working time in the factory by twelve hours per week, pending the settlement of the larger question as stated by the Prime Minister.
  THE FINANCIAL SECBETAEY TO THE WAR OFFICE (Mr. BROMLEY DAVENPORT, Cheshire, Macclesfield): I am afraid that in the case of the 403 men now under notice at Enfield it is not possible to obviate the discharges by working short time, as it will be necessary to make still further reductions. The question of working short time as an alternative to further discharges will be considered so long as there is any prospect of reversion to full time within a reasonable period.
  COLONEL LOCKWOOD: Do I understand that does not affect the 403 men?
  MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORT: That is so.

  Cost of the New Rifle
  COLONEL LOCKWOOD: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury what is the difference between the contract price for the 1905–6 rifle at he Enfield Small Arms Factory and the private manufacturer.
  BROMLEY DAVENPORT: The exact difference between the contract and Ordnance Factory price for the manufacture of the new short rifle in 1905–6 cannot at present be accurately calculated. For the current year the contract price is £4 11s. 8d. and the Ordnance Factory price is estimated at £3 17s.

  Manufacture of the New Rifle
  COLONEL LOCKWOOD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the proposed discharge of men in large numbers from the Enfield Small Arms Factory will disorganise the scheme for manufacturing the new rifle.
  MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORT: The reply is in the negative.

  Rifle Manufacture Statistics.
  COLONEL LOCKWOOD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War what number of the service rifles, Lee-Metford and Lee-Enfield, were made at the Royal Small Arms Factory, Enfield, during the years 1889–90,1890–91,1891–92,;1892–93, 1893–94; what was the cost per rifle each year; what number of Lee-Metford and Lee-Enfield rifles were made at the Royal Small Arms Factory, Birmingham, during the same period, and what was the cost per rifle for each year; what was the number of these rifles made at the Birmingham Small Arms Factory during the same period and the cost per rifle each year; what was the number of these rifles made at the London Small Arms Factory, Old Ford, during the same period, and what was the cost per rifle each year respectively; if the cost of establishment, depreciation of plant, and machinery are included in the cast of the rifle at Enfield; whether he is aware that wages at Enfield are admittedly higher than at any other small arms factory; and that a large amount of sub-contracting exists at the present time at the private firms resulting in the employment of a number of men by sub-contractors at low wages?
  MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORT: If my hon. and gallant friend will allow me, I propose to give the statistics for which he asks in a general Return. This Return will, if the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham consents, include the Return which he has been promised, and the information which my hon. friend the Member for the Hertford Division of Hertfordshire is desirous of obtaining, if he also concurs. As regards the last part of the Question, I have no recent information as to the rate of wages paid by the trade, nor am I aware of any sub-contracting other than that which is customary in the trade.
  COLONEL LOCKWOOD: When is there a likelihood of the Return being published?
  MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORT: I believe in a very few days.

  Enfield Factory Staff.
  COLONEL LOCKWOOD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the distress existing in the locality of the Enfield Small Arms Factory owing to the shortage of work for the last two years, he will reconsider the proposed reduction of the staff with a view to preventing the accentuation of the distress.
  MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORT: The programme for the manufacture of small arms next year will not provide sufficient work for the existing staff in the Government Small Arms Factories. It is, therefore, regretted that reduction in the staff will be absolutely necessary.

  Gauge Makers at Enfield.
  COLONEL BOWLES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War how many gauge makers are at present employed at the Enfield Factory on the work of the new rifle; and how many would be employed if the proposed, reduction were carried out.
  MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORT: Ninety-six gauge makers are at present employed at Enfield. It is not proposed to reduce this number at present.

  Machinery at the Enfield Small Arms Factory.
  COLONEL BOWLES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War what is the cost of the new machinery laid down at the Enfield Small Arms Factory during the last three years; what percentage of the plant at the Royal Small Arms Factory, Enfield, is now lying idle; what percentage will be idle if the discharges now contemplated by the Government are carried out; and what is the estimated cost of the electrical plant now being laid down at the Royal Small Arms Factory, Enfield.
  MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORT: The figures of the cost of the new machinery are as follows:—1902–3, £39,966; 1903–4, £48,527; 1904–5, £8,500. About 20 percent, of the plant is now lying idle and about 75 per cent, will be lying idle if the discharges now contemplated are carried
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  out. The cost of the electric plant now being laid down is estimated at £6,679.

  Discharge Gratuities at Enfield Small Arms Factory.
  COLONEL BOWLES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he will allow the men employed at Enfield, who may be able to find employment elsewhere, to receive the gratuity and be discharged on reduction.
  MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORT: Every consideration will be given to individual cases, but no general undertaking can be given in the sense suggested by the Question. It must be remembered that seven years service is required to entitle a man to a gratuity when discharged on reduction.

  Sword and Bayonet Manufacture at Enfield.
  COLONEL BOWLES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War what numbers of swords, bayonets, and sword bayonets have been made at the Enfield Small Arms Factory during the years 1888–9, 1889–90, 1890–91, 1891–2, 1892–3, 1893–4, 1894–5, 1895–6, 1896–7, 1897–8, 1898–9, 1899–1900, 1900–1, 1901–2, 1902–3, and the cost each year respectively; what numbers have been given to the trade each year of each arm, and what is the cost each year respectively; what are the numbers given to the Enfield Small Arms Factory and the trade respectively for the coming year.
  MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORT: If my hon. and gallant friend will permit me, I will include the statistics for which he asks in the general Return which I propose to give, and which I alluded to in my reply to a previous Question. In regard to the last part of the Question, the allocation for the coming year has not yet been settled.

  South African Mining Compounds.
  MR. LEVY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that a South African mining company has erected a barbed wire fence round its compound, and has covered the whole of the open space in the center

  645
  of the compound overhead with wire netting; and whether he will give instructions for this form of confinement to be discontinued.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. LYTTELTON, Warwick and Leamington): If the hon. Member will communicate to me the name of the company to which he refers, I will consider whether it is necessary to inquire into the matter.
  MR. LEVY: The Frank Smith Diamond Mining Company.

  Colonial Marriages.
  GENERAL LAURIE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has received any communication from the Government of any of the self-governing Colonies urging that marriages which have been lawfully contracted in other parts of the Empire should be legalised in this country.
  MR. LYTTELTON: Nothing has been received since the Answer given to the similar Question asked by the hon. and gallant Member on March 13th,† to which I would refer him.
  GENERAL LAURIE: I never received that Answer.

  Transvaal War Contribution.
  MR. McKENNA: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has any information not yet disclosed to the House which would explain Lord Milner's statement that the promised contribution of the Transvaal to the cost of the war is an obligation of honour only; whether he can state upon whose honour the obligation is founded; whether the obligation is less binding upon the Government of the Transvaal than is the obligation upon other British Colonies to pay their debts; and whether he Las any reason to suppose that the Government of the Transvaal do not admit the obligation as binding upon them.
  † See (4) Debates, cxlii., 1182.
  MR. LYTTELTON: I believe the hon. Gentleman was fortunate enough not to hear my speech yesterday,† but I must refer him to it. He will there find that I dealt fully with the subject of this Question.
  MR. McKENNA: Cannot the right hon. Gentleman give me a shorter Answer?

  Excessive Drinking in Burma
  MR. SAMUEL SMITH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India I whether his attention has been drawn to the Burma Excise Administration Report for 1904, in which the Deputy Commissioner for Tharrawaddy and others allude to the great increase in the habit of drinking to excess among the Burmese, and to the difficulties experienced by the Excise officers in Burma in suppressing illicit distillation; and, if so, whether he proposes to take any steps in the matter.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Mr. BRODRICK,): The Report to which the hon. Member refers shows that the local authorities are fully alive to the evil, which mainly results from the increasing wealth of the population. In Lower Burma, in order to restrict facilities for obtaining liquor, the number of shop licences has been reduced in the current year by twelve per cent. The local Government has further directed a systematic scrutiny of shop licences in every district with a view to securing, if possible, still further reductions. Measures are being taken to deal with illicit distillation of country spirits, which is confined to the wilder and more inaccessible tracts. I do not consider that any action on my part is called for.

  Indian Water Supplies.
  MR. SAMUEL SMITH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India what provision has been made, by the local Governments or otherwise, for conserving and extending the water supply in Guzerat, the Central Provinces, and the Deccan, since the investigations made four years ago by the Scott-Moncrieff Commission in those districts. †See page 554.
  MR. BRODRICK: The following is the latest information in my possession:— In Gujerat attention has chiefly been devoted to the inspection and repair of small tanks. The work of restoring 532 of these tanks which were out of repair is in progress. In the northern part of the Deccan a number of minor irrigation works of the nature of masonry works across streams have been inspected and repaired; four small tanks have been constructed, and projects for twelve others are under investigation. In the southern portion of the Deccan the engineering staff is occupied principally in the repair of minor irrigation works. In addition, estimates have been prepared for two larger projects, one to cost forty-one lakhs in the Poona district, and another in Belgaum costing thirty-three lakhs. In the Central Provinces the construction of twelve tanks, the aggregate cost of which is estimated at over twenty-one lakhs, has been sanctioned for protective purposes; in four of the tanks work is already well advanced. A number of minor tanks have been surveyed, and in the past year thirty-six tanks were begun under the grant-in-aid system.

  Indian Tea Association and the Import Duty on Tea.
  MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he has received representations from the Government of India on behalf of the Indian Tea Association, intimating that the present import duty on tea has imposed a serious burden on the tea industry in India, and urging the necessity for a substantial reduction of the duty in the forthcoming Budget; and whether these representations have been communicated to the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
  MR. BRODRICK: The answer to both Questions is in the affirmative.

  British Somaliland.
  MR. J. A. PEASE: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what are the limitations of British Somaliland within which effective protection is now given to the native population; and whether natives are now armed to protect
  648
  themselves in the whole of the area in British Somaliland outside such limitations. Perhaps, having regard to the statement of the noble Lord last night on the rising of the House, he will inform the House whether the Government is likely to be induced to modify or vary in any way the policy recently announced owing to arrangements having been made with the Mullah.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Earl PEKCY,): I am not aware that it is the intention of the Government to modify their policy. The right to British protection is limited to the country inhabited by the tribes with whom His Majesty's Government have treaty engagements. The Answer to the second paragraph is in the negative.

  Income-Tax Collectors in Scotland.
  MR. CROMBIE: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer at what date the collection of the income-tax was first added to the other duties of the officers of Inland Revenue (Excisemen) in Scotland.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN,): The collection of incometax in Scotland through "Excise officials" of the Inland Revenue was first made in 1854. But the particular officers who may be taken to fall under the term "Excisemen" were not so employed until 1879.

  Vaccination Exemption Certificates— Harrison's Case.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that a labourer named Harrison was recently refused a certificate of exemption from vaccination for his child by the magistates sitting at Spilsby and Boston; that he was subsequently summoned, and in default of payment of the fine of £1 and £1 2s. 6d. costs, was sent to prison for one month; and that since this man's release he was, on the 27th February, again summoned for not obeying the vaccination order; and, in view of the fact that he has repeatedly endeavoured to make clear that he conscientiously

  649
  believes that vaccination would be prejudicial to the health of his child, will the Secretary of State consider the expediency of directing the attention of the magistrates at Spilsby and Boston to the remarks made by the Lord Chief Justice at Birmingham, on the 27th July last, in regard to the principles on which the Act ought to be administered.
  *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. AKERS-DOUGLAS,): I have made inquiries into this case, and I learn that the remarks on the subject of conscientious objection to vaccination, made by the Lord Chief Justice at the Birmingham Summer Assizes, were brought to the notice of the Spilsby magistrates before they convicted Harrison. The question whether the circumstances justify the issue of a certificate of exemption is in each case one for the discretion of the magistrates, with which I have no power to interfere.

  Factory Orders—Overtime Regulations.
  MR. SHACKLETON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the trade union representing the operatives affected by the issue of Order No. 1,696 was consulted before such issue, or in what way was the opinion of the workpeople concerned ascertained.
  *MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: The Answer to the first part of the Question is in the negative; and to the second part is that, as I have already explained to the hon. Member, His Majesty's Inspector for the district reported to me that the operatives concerned would strongly object to the abolition of overtime in the making up of the articles named.
  MR. SHACKLETON: Can the right hon. Gentleman say in what way he ascertained that opinion?
  *MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: I will make inquiry. I cannot say at present, but the report I have is amply confirmed by the fact that since the publication of the Draft Order no objection at all has been brought to my notice.
  MR. SHACKLETON: Has the right hon. Gentleman not received repeated objections from people in Belfast?
  *MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: Not that I am aware of, but I will inquire and let the hon. Gentleman know.
  MR. TENNANT: Will the report of the inspector be laid on the Table?
  *MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: I will consider that.

  Alleged Wrongful Convictions—Cases of Edalji and Rolls.
  CAPTAIN NORTON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will give instructions that, in connection with the appeals in the cases of ex-Constable Rolls, of the Metropolitan Constabulary, and George Edalji, all the documents in the possession of the prosecution and the reports presented to the Home Secretary which have induced him to reject petitions for their release may be inspected by the representatives of Rolls and Edalji, respectively, so as to enable them to give such further information and explanation to the Home Secretary as may be deemed vital to a further consideration of these cases.
  *MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: The reply is in the negative. In the cases referred to I have given the fullest consideration to any and every representation on behalf of the prisoners which has been submitted to me by their friends or otherwise, and I have taken every available means to obtain information before arriving at a decision. It would be inconsistent with my duty as the adviser of the Crown in the exercise of the prerogative of mercy to allow prisoners or their friends to have access to documents in my possession which are always of a confidential nature. I am always ready to consider any further representations which may be made to me on behalf of a prisoner.

  Royal Commission on London Traffic.
  MR. KENNETH BALFOUR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he can say when the Royal Commission

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  on London Traffic is expected to issue its Report.
  *MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: The Royal Commission on London Traffic are now considering their Report, but they are unable at present to state at what date it will be possible for the Report to be presented to Parliament.

  Military Prisoners in Civil Prisons.
  MR. KENNETH BALFOUR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the transfer of military prisoners to military prisons has been completed; and, if not, can he state the number of soldiers now in convict and local prisons.
  *MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: The transfer of military prisoners to military prisons, and of the administration of these prisons to the War Office, was completed in the course of last year. Only those soldiers who are sentenced to penal servitude, or who are convicted of criminal offences, are now committed to civil prisons. On December 31st, 1904, there were sixty-six soldiers in convict prisons, and 157 soldiers in local prisons.

  Royal Commission on Trades Disputes.
  *COLONEL LEGGE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he can inform the House when the Royal Commission on Trades Disputes is expected to present its Report; and whether, in view of the fact that the Trades Union and Trades Disputes Bill will be shortly considered by the Standing Committee on Law, it is possible for the Commission to issue their Report without delay.
  *MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: The Royal Commission on Trade Disputes are engaged in the consideration of their Report, but they are unable to name any definite date for its issue. I hope it will he before the Report stage of the Bill.

  Pauper Alien Lunatics.
  *COLONEL LEGGE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he can give the number of pauper alien lunatics and imbeciles maintained in lunatic asylums and public
  652
  institutions in the United Kingdom; and whether any means exist of ascertaining the country of origin of such lunatics and imbeciles.
  *MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: The number of pauper alien lunatics maintained in county and borough asylums in England and Wales was, in 1903, 817, as is shown in Table XIV. A. on page 146 of the last Report of the Lunacy Commissioners. The same table gives the countries of origin, information as to which is obtained from the medical officers of asylums. I regret I am unable to give the number of alien imbeciles maintained in public institutions other than asylums, and also that, without longer notice. I cannot give the number of alien lunatics for the whole of the United Kingdom.

  Employment of Children Act—London County Council By-Laws.
  *COLONEL LEGGE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the by-laws made by the London County Council under the Employment of Children Act have yet been approved by the Home Office; and, if not, what has been the cause of the delay in settling these rules.
  *MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: No, Sir. These by-laws were formally made by the Council and submitted to me only a few days ago. The delay has been due, I understand, to the fact that the by-laws were referred by the Council to the education committee for their consideration.
  MR. TENNANT: Will the right hon. Gentleman consent to a Return of the by-laws issued under this Act?
  *MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: Does the hon. Gentleman mean for the whole of England?
  MR. TENNANT: Yes.
  *MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: Yes, it might be useful, but perhaps it would be better to wait for a time, as many by-laws are in process of completion.

  National Telephone Agreement.
  MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORD: I beg to ask the

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  Postmaster-General whether he can and will arrange in the Agreement with the National Telephone Company that until the transfer to the Government the requirements and plant shall be purchased exclusively from British manufacturers so far as British manufacturers are able to supply the same, these requirements being upwards of £250,000 per annum.
  THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Lord STANLEY,): It is not open to me now to modify in any respect the Agreement which has been signed subject to the veto of Parliament.

  London Postal Boundaries.
  MR. HERBERT ROBERTSON: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he will consider the desirability of readjusting the boundaries of the districts served by the various I head offices and sub-offices in London in such manner that the whole of each metropolitan borough may be served from the same head office, and from such number of sub-offices dealing only with that metropolitan borough as its size may require.
  LORD STANLEY: I regret that it would not be practicable to adopt the suggestion of the hon. Member, as it would necessitate a complete remodelling of the whole postal organisation of London without procuring any acceleration in the delivery of letters. The question was raised in 1903 by the Council of Metropolitan Mayors, and was fully considered by my predecessor, who arrived at the same conclusion.

  Electrified Railways—Precautions at Level Crossings.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade if he will state the number of level crossings on the electrified portion of the Lancashire and Yorkshire and North Eastern Railways, and the nature of the steps taken to warn and protect the public from accidents through contact with the electrically charged rail.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. BONAR LAW,): On the electrically equipped portion of the Lancashire and Yorkshire
  654
  Railway there are nineteen public and thirty-three private level crossings, and on the similar portion of the North Eastern Railway the numbers are eighteen and twenty-nine. Both railway companies have informed me that the electric current is not carried over the crossings by means of a charged rail but by a cable connecting with the live rail on either side of the crossing, and the ends of the rail are protected with non-conducting material. The companies also state that Warning boards are fixed at the crossings.
  MR. WEIR: Does this apply to both public and private crossings?
  MR. BONARLAW: Yes.

  Wireless Telegraphy—Communication with Lightships.
  MAJOR SEELY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade whether arrangements are yet completed for connecting the six specified lightships with the shore by wireless telegraphy for life-saving purposes.
  MR. BONAR LAW: No, Sir, but I am glad to say that the agreement with the Marconi Company, which has involved the consideration of many difficult points of principle and detail, is nearing completion.

  Sugar Duties—Customs Inspection of the Refineries.
  MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORD: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the effect of the regulations under the Sugar Convention and sugar duties has been to drive out of business as sugar refiners comparatively small works which cannot afford to pay for at least two Customs officers to attend at their works, and that Messrs.Criddle & Co., of Liverpool, have closed their refinery; will he say whether similar regulations are now about to come into force with respect to the golden syrup business; and, if so, whether the Department will favourably consider some alteration of the regulations referred to.
  MR. BONAR LAW: Sugar refineries are supervised by the Crown free of charge, and no refiner can therefore have

  655
  been driven out of business because of the expense entailed by the attendance of Customs officers. No regulations are about to come into force with respect to the syrup business.

  Holborn Municipal Irregularities.
  MR. SLACK: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the irregularities in the municipal government of the metropolitan borough of Holborn, and whether, although a committee of inquiry has been appointed by the borough council, the Local Government Board will be prepared to investigate and conduct a public inquiry into a matter of such great and general public interest.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR,): I am aware of the irregularities in the accounts of some of the officers of the borough council, and I have seen the reports of the district auditor on the subject. The audit is still proceeding, and at the present time I have no authority to direct an inquiry in relation to the irregularities referred to.
  MR. SLACK: Is it possible to arrange that two or three representatives of the Local Government Board should take part in the inquiry now proceeding?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: If the borough council make application to that effect I shall be glad to consider it.

  Ventilation of the House of Commons.
  COLONEL WYNDHAM MURRAY: I beg to ask the hon. Member for Chorley, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, when the new works for improving the ventilation of the House of Commons are likely to be completed.
  LORD BALCARRES: It is anticipated that the works recommended by the Select Committee will be completed by Easter; but experimental tests which are being continued may possibly necessitate further minor improvements.

  Abingdon Street Improvement.
  SIR JOHN ROLLESTON: I beg to ask the hon. Member for Chorley, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, if he will explain the proposed purchase of a house in Abingdon Street for £10,000, as provided in the Estimates for 1905–6.
  LORD BALCARRES: The arrangement with the County Council will be understood if my hon. friend will refer to Section 8, Sub-sections 9 to 12, of the London County Council Improvements Act, 1900, together with the deposited signed plan referred to in the section. For the widening of Abingdon Street at its northern end, the front portions, at least, of the five houses at the top of the street have to be removed; No. 29 is the fourth of these, and the only one not already belonging to Government. The acquisition of the site, minus the small part thrown into the street, will complete a valuable block of property.

  Non-Provided Schools—Religious Teaching and Teachers' Pay.
  MR. WORSLEY-TAYLOR: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether his attention has been called to a notice issued by the West Riding County Council to the managers of non-provided schools within their jurisdiction to the effect that, as from the 1st of May, they will deduct from the salaries of teachers in those schools such a proportionate sum as represents the time occupied by such teachers in giving denominational religious instruction; and, if so, whether the Board of Education will take steps to protect the managers and teachers of such schools against this action.
  THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Sir WILLIAM ANSON,): I have seen the notice in question. The Board have been in communication with the local authority and with managers of voluntary schools on the subject of this notice, and have informed them that the Board are advised that the action contemplated by the local education authority contravenes the provisions of the Education Act, 1902, and that

  657
  managers are not bound to comply with the instructions conveyed in the notice.

  Somerset House Records.
  COLONEL WELBY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he can see his way to transferring from Somerset House to the Public Record Office all wills proved before 1700, to enable students to refer to them without fee; if not, whether he will make arrangements at Somerset House, so that those early wills can be consulted under rules, as at the Record Office, by all students free of charge.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY (Mr. VICTOR CAVENDISH,): I would refer my hon. and gallant friend to the Answer given on this subject by my predecessor on June 18th, 1903.† I understand that visitors are allowed without fee to search the calendars of the wills proved at a time not less than 100 years prior to the search being made.

  Scottish Congested Districts—Trade Apprenticeships for Boys.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord-Advocate whether the invitation of the Congested Districts Board for Scotland to assist in the maintenance of twenty boys from congested districts desirous of being apprenticed to trades has been responded to; and, if so, will he state from what parishes applications have been received, and the number from each parish.
  THE LORD-ADVOCATE (Mr. SCOTT DICKSON,): Applications have been received as follows:—from the parishes of Barra, 13; South Uist, 3; North Uist, 3; Harris, 2; Stornoway, 8; Lochs, 8; Barvas, 4; Portree, 4; Bracadale, 1; Applecross, 8; Gairloch, 2; Assynt, 1; Lairg, 1; South Ronaldshay, 1; Bressay, 1. Total, 60 for boys.

  Ross and Inverness Medical Officer of Health.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord-Advocate whether, in the event of a medical officer of health being appointed
  † See (4) Debates, cxxiii., 1295.
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  for the mainland of the counties of Ross and Cromarty and Inverness, will arrangements be made that such officer shall devote the whole of his time to the duties of his office, and not engage in private practice.
  MR. SCOTT DICKSON: This matter is engaging the attention of the Secretary for Scotland, but he cannot undertake to give any definite promise on the subject.
  MR. WEIR: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is the practice all over the country—in both England and Wales—that no medical officer shall engage in either private or consultative practice?
  MR. SCOTT DICKSON: I am not.

  Congested Districts (Scotland) Amendment Bill.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord-Advocate if he will state when he proposes to introduce the Congested Districts (Scotland) Amendment Bill.
  MR. SCOTT DICKSON: I propose to introduce this Bill without delay.

  Grants to Evicted Tenants.
  MR. LUNDON: I beg to ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland whether his attention has been called to the case of an evicted tenant restored to his farm in which he made an application to the Estates Commissioners for a grant of money to restock his land and rebuild his houses, which was refused because the arrangement for reinstatement and sale was made between the landlord and tenant and carried out by the Land Commission rather than through the Estates Commissioners; and, if so, whether he will take steps to secure that advances shall be made for this purpose.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WALTER LONG,): This case cannot be identified upon the information given. If the hon. Member will supply me with the name of the evicted tenant and date of his application I shall be pleased to make further inquiry.

  Belfast Revaluation.
  MR. CLANCY: I beg to ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland whether he is aware that the recent revaluation of Belfast does not include that of a number of hereditaments estimated at a value of so much as £100,000; whether he informed a deputation from Belfast City Council some time since, that a Bill to repair the effects of this omission had been drafted by direction of the Commissioner of Valuation; and, if so, what are the intentions of the Government in regard to that measure; and whether, pending the rectification of the omission referred to, if such omission has occurred, he will take steps to prevent the partial revaluation of Belfast becoming operative.
  THE ATTOENEY-GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. ATKINSON,): A draft Bill has been prepared by the Commissioner of Valuation, and will immediately receive the attention of my right hon. friend. I cannot state the precise day on which it will be introduced. I see no reason at present to suspend the coming into force of the general revaluation pending the passing of the Bill, but I will communicate with the Commissioner on the subject.
  MR. CLANCY: Does not the intention to introduce the Bill prove the existing injustice. Ought not the partial revaluation to be suspended?
  MR. ATKINSON: No, Sir.

  Cooscroum Fishing Industry.
  MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the necessity for an improvement of the facilities for landing fishing boats at Cooscroum, county Kerry, the Congested Districts Board will agree to act in accordance with the suggestions unanimously put forward by the local authorities, pending the provision of a permanent slip.
  MR. WALTER LONG: The question of effecting further improvements at this place will be considered by the Board at their meeting next month.

  Irish Constabulary—Marriage Regulations.
  MR. SHEEHY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether it is the practice in the Irish Constabulary to permit a married constable to remain in the district to which his wife belongs; whether he is aware that Sergeant Sullivan, of Dunshaughlen, married some months ago the daughter of a publican in Skryne, which is in Sullivan's district; and whether, in the interest of the due observance of the licence laws, Sullivan will be removed to another county.
  MR. WALTER LONG: The reply to the first inquiry is in the negative. The sergeant was necessarily retained at his present station on special duty which is about to terminate, when he will be removed to another county.

  Irish National School Teachers and Science Training.
  MR. HAYDEN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will state the number of teachers at present employed in the national schools who have received no training in elementary science either from the Board's organisers or in the training colleges; the number who have not been trained in the full course of instruction laid down by the Commissioners for the pupils in the schools; the number of schools which have not yet received equipment grants of apparatus and in which therefore no science teaching has yet been commenced; a list of suitable centres in which no organisers' classes for teachers have yet been held, and in which, in the opinion of the Commissioners of National Education and their expert advisers, it is desirable to have continuation or revision courses of instruction.
  MR. HAYDEN: I beg also to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the teachers trained in the organisers' preliminary courses have not been given as extensive a knowledge of the subject as is, according to the Board's official programme, expected from their sixth and seventh-standard pupils; and that only the 500 teachers admitted to

  661
  the Part II. course have yet been given such knowledge; and, seeing that it was the intention of the Commissioners that the vast majority of the teachers should be admitted to this Part II. course, whether provision will be made for having this intention carried into effect as well as for training the teachers who have not yet been admitted to any course and have already been through the training colleges.
  MR. WALTER LONG: The number of teachers employed in national schools is about 12,000, and, of these, 5,829 have not received any training in elementary science, and 1,897 have been trained in part of the coarse only. 7,195 schools have not yet received equipment grants of scientific apparatus but, as stated by me yesterday, † provision has been made in the Estimates for the continuance of these grants. The Commissioners have arranged with the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for the training of teachers in elementary science at local technical schools, and the necessary financial provision has been made for the travelling expenses of the teachers who may receive such training during the coming year.

  Report of the Head Organiser of Science Teaching in Ireland
  MR. HAYDEN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the opinion of the Commissioners of National Education that there is no reason to anticipate that the progress of science teaching in the schools will diminish owing to the reduction in numbers of the organising staff; and whether he will lay before the House the last (1904) Report of the Inspector and Head Organiser of Science Instruction, who is immediately responsible for the progress of science teaching in the schools; whether he will state the approximate annual sum, over and above that already placed upon the Estimates, which would be necessary to permit of the organisers' classes being continued as heretofore; and whether, in order that the organising work which has been
  † See page 461.
  662
  practically only well begun may be carried on, he will recommend that the necessary funds be provided.
  MR. WALTER LONG: The Report of the Head Organiser for 1904 will be published with the Board's Annual Report for that year. There is no intention of continuing the employment of sub-organisers after the 31st instant, which would involve an additional expenditure of £4,500 a year.

  Extra Subjects and Attendance Calculations in Irish Schools.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, whether the regulations re extra subjects included in the circular to inspectors, and to which attention was drawn last year, have since been withdrawn; whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction that has been created throughout Ireland by the system of calculating attendances for extra subjects followed by some of the National Board inspectors; and, if so, whether the National Board intend to take up the matter and have it settled at once.
  MR. WALTER LONG: Neither of the circulars referred to has been withdrawn. In some few cases managers of schools have objected to the methods adopted in the calculation of attendances at extra subject classes. In such cases explanations were sent to the managers. No further action is contemplated by the National Board.

  Darby's Point Pier, Achill Island
  DR. AMBROSE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the fact that the survey for the extension of Darby's Point Pier at Achill Island, county Mayo, for which the Board passed a vote at their meeting in November last, was made on various dates between January 23rd and February 7th, he will explain why the Secretary of the Congested Districts Board (Ireland) in a letter dated March 2nd and addressed to the hon. Member for Mayo West, stated that the survey was not yet made
  MR. WALTER LONG: The Secretary to the Board was not in possession of the information mentioned in the first part of the Question until the 8th instant, when the engineer's report was received. Hence his letter of the 2nd instant.

  Belfast Revaluation.
  MR. CLANCY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in the recent revaluation of Belfast, public-houses have been valued on a different principle from that adopted in the case of other business establishments, the value of the licences being taken into account in the one case and the volume of business done not being taken into account in the other; and, if so, whether, in view of the fact that the recent decision of the Court of Appeal in Ireland in the case of Armstrong v. the Commissioner of Valuation was to the effect that the volume of business should in all cases be taken into account, the revaluation of Belfast will be allowed to become operative till all business houses are valued on the same principle.
  MR. WALTER LONG: My right hon. and learned friend replied to a precisely similar Question on the 7th instant.†
  MR. CLANCY: No, Sir, the Question was not identical to this.
  MR. WALTER LONG: I understand it was to the same effect and that my right hon. friend's Answer covered the whole ground. If the hon. Gentleman thinks otherwise and will put down another Question I shall be happy to consider if I can give any further Answer.

  Irish Agricultural Department—Catholic Clerks.
  MR. DELANY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the chief clerk of the Agricultural Department acted wholly on his own initiative in sending for one of the Catholic clerks of the veterinary branch and suggesting to him that he should withdraw from the written representations which that clerk and other Catholic
  † See (4) Debates, cxlii., 586.
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  gentlemen of the branch had laid before the Department in May last; and, if not, can he state definitely the name of the administrative official under whose authority such action was taken.
  MR. WALTER LONG: The first part of this Question was answered by my right hon. friend on the 1st instant.‡

  Iveagh-Pirrie Motor Scheme.
  MR. DELANY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether a petition was forwarded from Clonaslee, Queen's County, to Mr. Pirrie, asking that the Iveagh-Pirrie motor scheme should be put into operation in the district; and whether he can say what is the reason of the delay in acceding to this.‡
  MR. WALTER LONG: I have no information as to the petition in question, which is one entirely for the promoters of the scheme to deal with. The suggested service is not one of those originally contemplated.

  New College of Science in Dublin.
  MR. CLANCY:
  I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether any instructions have been given to the architects to provide for the use of Irish materials in the construction of the new College of Science in Dublin; whether, if such instructions have been issued, it has been intimated therein, or in any other document, by those in authority, that full opportunity of tendering should be given to all Irish quarry owners; and, in view of the fact that Portland stone used only a few years ago in parts of the museum buildings in Dublin has weathered badly, and has already shown symptons of premature decay, any precaution has been taken against the use of that material in the proposed building in the same locality.
  MR. VICTOR CAVENDISH: I do not consider it will be advisable to place restrictions upon the contractor as to the source of his supply of materials, but the utmost care will be taken that whatever stone is selected shall be of the best quality.
  ‡See (4) Debates, cxlii., 27.
  MR. CLANCY: Then am I to understand that the promise made last year that Irish materials should be used as far as possible is to be broken?
  MR. VICTOR CAVENDISH: No, Sir.

  Imperial Committee of Defence.
  COLONEL WELBY: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he will consider the advisability of proposing an addition to the Imperial Committee of Defence, in equal numbers to political members now of it, of members of the Opposition who have held office in the Departments of the Admiralty, War Office, Colonies, or India, with a view to non-Party union in laying down and carrying out continuous principles of defence by sea and land.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): In answer to my hon. and gallant friend, I must say that in my judgment no mechanical arrangement will secure the absence of Party in dealing with any great question. There are questions which are dealt with without partisanship, but that is due to the good feeling and patriotism of hon. Members on both sides of the House. But there is no way of securing that, and it would not be secured by the particular machinery which my hon. friend's Question provides. There is another point to which I would call attention. It is this. Continuity of foreign policy has intrinsic advantages altogether apart from the nature of the policy which is continuous. I mean it is a positive, though sometimes a necessary, evil for one Government to reverse the foreign policy of its predecessors. I do not think that is the case with regard to defence. I think each Government, during the course of its tenure of office, has nothing whatever to think of except the actual merits of the case before it. The only way to secure continuity is that there should be a common view as to what the merits of the particular question are. We have secured that, as far as it can be secured, under the existing system of the Committee of Defence by keeping records fairly ample of the conclusions at which we have arrived, and the grounds on which we arrived at
  666
  them. These records will be in the hands of our successors, and if they are convincing we shall have continuity of policy; if they are not convincing no arrangement of membership of the nature proposed will produce that result. On the whole, therefore, I do not think it would be desirable to introduce so anomalous an addition, so strange to the ordinary arrangement of a body more or less responsible for giving advice to the Cabinet, which would contain not only members of the Cabinet, but members violently opposed to it. I am not disposed in these circumstances to accede to my hon. and gallant friend's suggestion.

  Home Defence Requirements.
  COLONEL WELBY: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the Imperial Committee of Defence has modified, and, if so, by what numbers, the estimate dated May 11th, 1903, laid before the Royal Commission on the Militia and Volunteers by the War Office, that the total number of troops required for Home defence is, Defensive Garrisons, 150,000; Mobile Force, England, 120,000; Mobile Force, Ireland, 30,000; Cadres of Depôts and Training Units, 30,000; Total, 330,000.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The figures to which my hon. friend refers, and which were supplied to the Royal Commission, were not authoritative, and the Commission were informed that they were not authoritative. Personally I should myself dissent from them.

  Sittings of the House—Hour of Meeting
  MR. WHITMORE: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, for the convenience of Members generally, His Majesty's Government will propose an Amendment of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House) that will provide that the House shall meet at 2.30 o'clock, and that Questions shall begin at 2.45 o'clock.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The change in our rules which my hon. friend, following the example of many hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House, has from time to time suggested, would be, I believe, a convenience to a large number

  667
  of Members, and certainly a very great convenience to His Majesty's Government. I suppose there are no Members to whom the present rule is more inconvenient. I do not, however, propose to make any suggestions at the present time for the alteration of the rule. The disadvantage of making an alteration is clear. You will diminish by an appreciable fraction the most important period for our discussions. It is the afternoon sitting which is the most important portion of the day. I think it would be a serious thing to diminish that by the amount of time suggested by my hon. friend; and though, on full consideration, the House might come to a decision that a change should be made, and though I do not oppose it on principle, I do not intend at present to put any suggestion on the Paper to carry it out.

  Standing Orders.
  SIR RICHARD JEBB: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether it, is proposed, and, if so, when, to complete the terms of the Standing Order (Older in the House), and to resume the discussion of that Order which was adjourned on 13th February, 1902.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I should be glad to have an opportunity to resume and complete the consideration of the rules, but my hon. friend will readily understand that there is more important business before the House at present, and I am hardly in a position to state when it will be possible to take up this half accomplished task.

  Re-election of Ministers
  MR. SCOTT-MONTAGU: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether it is the intention of the Government to proceed this session with the Bill for removing the necessity for re-election in the case of acceptance of office by Members of the House of Commons.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The Bill to which my hon. friend refers is ready. Notice of it appeared in the King's Speech of last year. I adhere to the strong view which I have held for many years that the present rule as to
  668
  re-election is inimical to the best interests of the country; and if I had any chance of passing the Bill without discussion I should be glad to do so, if not for our benefit, at all events for the benefit of our successors. I myself believe it is one of the most antiquated prejudices which induces us to stick to this rule, and I am convinced many years will not elapse before, by common consent, it is abolished.

  STANDING COMMITTEES.
  Ordered, That all Standing Committees have leave to print and circulate with the Votes the Minutes of their Proceedings and any amended Clauses of Bills committed to them.—(Mr. John Ellis.)

  SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).
  Mr. HALSEYreported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Members from the Standing Committee on Law, and Courts of Justice, and Legal Procedure:—Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas, Mr. Solicitor-General, and Sir James Heath; and had appointed in substitution, Mr. Attorney-General, Mr. Bonar Law, and Mr. Morrison.
  Report to lie upon the Table.

NEW BILLS.
  HOUSING OF THE WORKING CLASSES BILL.
  "To amend the Law relating to the Housing of the Working Classes," presented by Mr. Nannetti; supported by Captain Norton, Mr. Joyce. Mr. Harwood, Mr. Crooks, Mr. Field, and Sir J. Fortescue Flannery; to be read a second time upon Monday, April 10th, and to be printed. [Bill 111.]
  PLACES OF WORSHIP (SITES) BILL.
  "To give further facilities for the acquisition of sites for Places of Worship," presented by Mr. Herbert Lewis; supported by Sir Alfred Thomas, Mr. Fenwick, Mr. Lloyd-George, Mr. Perks, Mr. Compton Rickett, and Mr. Whitley; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 112.]

  SUPPLY.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]

CIVIL SERVICES (SUPPLEMENTARY) ESTIMATES, 1904–5.

  CLASS III.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £12,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1905, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Departments of the Solicitor for the Affairs of His Majesty's Treasury, King's Proctor, and Director of Public Prosecutions, the Cost of Prosecutions, and other Legal Proceedings."
  Whereupon Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Item BB (Criminal Prosecutions not undertaken by the Director of Public Prosecutions) be reduced by £200."—(Mr. Lough.)
  SIR FREDERICK BANBURYwas surprised that the hon. Member had given no explanation of the object of the Amendment.
  MR. LOUGH: I gave it on the last occasion.
  SIR FREDERICK BANBURYsaid it did not follow that hon. Members now present were in the House when the question was last discussed, and they ought not to be asked to vote without being informed of the reasons why the reduction was proposed. He assumed that it was in connection with the Whitaker Wright prosecution. Now he was one of those who did not agree with the view of the Attorney-General in the matter of that prosecution, but in the end it turned out that he was right, for Whitaker Wright was convicted. But all men, even the Attorney-General, were liable to make mistakes, and because one might have been made in this case, he did
  670
  not consider it a sufficient reason for moving a reduction of the hon. and learned Gentleman's salary. The point at issue between them, it would be in the recollection of the House, was as to the object of the issue of false balance-sheets, their contention being that by such issue money was obtained by false pretences and great misery caused. Therefore, that was an offence punishable by law. But the Attorney-General took the view that there was no evidence to prove that the publication of the false balance-sheets enabled Whitaker Wright to obtain money or caused any one to lose it, and it was on that ground that the hon. and learned Gentleman based his opinion that the Government ought not to prosecute. That, he believed, was the wrong view. But then the hon. and learned Gentleman was not perhaps aware that numerous people would have sold their shares had it not been for the issue of the balance-sheets, and others bought shares on the strength of them, thus being undoubtedly defrauded of their money by a false pretence. No doubt the hon. and learned Gentleman was animated by the desire, which so often animated lawyers and other people, to be certain of success before taking action, and there was something to be said for that point of view. It was suggested that those who suffered by reason of the failure of the London and Globe Finance Corporation should themselves have taken action. As a matter of fact they did so and events justified their policy. But that was no ground for suggesting that the Attorney-General was not capable of fulfilling the duties of his office, which, he assumed, was the object of the Motion. As he understood it the Government had done the right thing, and paid the costs of those who instituted the prosecution. When one once got in the hands of the law there was no telling what might happen.
  SIR HENRY FOWLER: I rise to a point of order. The Motion before the House is for the reduction of the Vote. The hon. Member does not seem to be speaking to that question or to be making any remarks bearing upon the reduction.
  *THE CHAIRMAN: There are two questions really before the Committee, the reduction of the Vote and the payment of the whole sum. The remarks of the hon. Member related to the payment of these prosecution expenses. I think that is relevant; it is the line on which the debate proceeded the other night.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: And it occupied two hours.
  SIR FREDERICK BANBURY: I do not intend to occupy the time of the Committee any longer.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: Oh, go on, there is the closure at half-past five.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I do not think I have ever in my experience of this House been present at a more gross obstruction and wasting of public time.
  SIR GEORGE BARTLEY SIR GEORGE BARTLEY (Islington, N.) rose, but Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN remained standing.
  *THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member, I understand, rises to a point of order.
  SIR GEORGE BARTLEY: Yes, Sir. I wish to ask, Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, whether the right hon. Gentleman is speaking to the reduction or to the Vote.
  *THE CHAIRMAN: He was speaking to neither; the right hon. Gentleman was referring to the course of the present debate.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: What has happened with regard to this question of the Whitaker Wright prosecution is this. It was discussed at quite sufficient length on the previous occasion. The Committee was then ready to divide, but it was arranged that it should be adjourned in order that the Secretary to the Treasury should convey some information which the House desired to possess. It was on that small point that the adjournment was agreed to, and now the Government, having taken
  672
  from us all our public time, except from a quartér-past three to half-past five, deliberately encourage one of their supporters to occupy a large part of that reduced time. There are other items in this Vote which require discussion, and this is the way in which they connive at—[Mr. SWIFT MACNEILL: Organise, Organise,]—yes, organise, the employment of the reduced time which they have left to a muzzled House of Commons.
  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir ROBERT FINLAY,): I think the right hon. Gentleman cannot possibly have been present on the last occasion, or he would recollect that this was discussed at considerable length, and it was on his side of the House that a determination was expressed to have more time for the discussion. A Motion was made to report Progress, and owing to its being very nearly twelve o'clock it was obviously useless to resist that Motion, and it was acquiesced in. There was no such arrangement as that which the right hon. Gentleman alleges [OPPOSITION cries of "Yes, there was"]; and all hon. Gentlemen present will agree with what I say. [Cries of "No, no! We were present the whole time."]
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Look what has happened since that time. We have now the guillotine.
  SIR ROBERT FINLAY: That does not alter what took place, not even the guillotine can alter what has passed. I have no desire to stand between the House and the division, although no reason was given by the mover for the reduction.
  MR. LOUGH: It has already been given.
  SIR ROBERT FINLAY: In compliance with what appeared to be the general desire of the House, the Treasury said they would pay the costs of this prosecution. Now a Motion is made that £200 be taken out of the pockets of those who had conducted this prosecution. [MINISTERIAL cheers.] I could have understood it if it had been a Motion to reduce the salary of the Law Officers.
  MR. LAMBERT: That will come in time.
  SIR ROBERT FINLAY: Having regard to the reasons—the very odd reasons given for this Motion, may I be allowed to say one word. What I had to determine was whether the name of the Director of Public Prosecutions should be given to the prosecution of Whitaker Wright; I had to form my opinion on the materials before me to the best of my judgment, and the conclusion that I arrived at was that it would not be proper to do so. I am not going at length into my reasons; they related to the construction of a section of the Larceny Act, and, on the materials before me, I came to the conclusion that Whitaker Wright in issuing that most misleading balance-sheet did not do so for the purpose of deceiving or defrauding the shareholders or creditors; on the contrary, that it was for the purpose of benefiting them by carrying through an arrangement, a most improper one in my judgment, but one which did not seem to come within a breach of the criminal law. I stated my reasons more than a year ago on the Address, and I think the House was generally satisfied on the subject; at all events, a notice of Motion given on it was not prosecuted by the mover.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: It was closured.
  SIR ROBERT FINLAY: There was an opportunity.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: No, there was not.
  SIR ROBERT FINLAY: I think the hon. Member is mistaken.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: No, I am not.
  SIR ROBERT FINLAY: At any rate no attempt was made to move it.
  MR. LAMBERT: It was closured.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I will not allow this to pass. My recollection is perfectly distinct.
  *THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order! The hon. Member is not entitled to interrupt in this way. If he wishes to correct the Attorney-General he will have an opportunity of doing that afterwards.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I am sure the Attorney-General's sense of courtesy will allow his recollection to be revived. What occurred was this: the hon. Member for South Molton had an Amendment down to the Address in reference to this Whitaker Wright prosecution; but before it was arrived at an hon. Member was put up to ask the Attorney-General a Question; we got his ex parte statement, and the Amendment was never moved.
  SIR ROBERT FINLAY: I may remind the hon. Member that the fact that a Question was asked and a statement made did not in the slightest degree prevent the Amendment being moved.
  MR. LAMBERT: It was closured.
  SIR ROBERT FINLAY: I am not going to argue the matter. I only ask hon. Gentlemen who really wish to inform their minds to read my statement. I only wish to make one further observation of a general character. Whatever may be the opinion of any hon. Member with regard to any particular case, I think all will agree that it is one of the most important things in this country that in the very difficult and arduous and delicate task of deciding whether the Director of Public Prosecutions should take up a case, the Attorney-General, upon whom the responsibility rests, should exercise his judgment freely independently, and without fear or favour, and I do ask hon. Gentlemen opposite whether the line a few, a very few, of them are disposed to take in this matter is calculated to ensure the continuance of that system under which in this matter we have lived hitherto. If on every occasion the Attorney-General is thought to have done wrong his conduct is to be the subject of public censure in this House, do hon. Gentlemen think that will be conducive to the welfare of this country? As long as I hold this office, and I speak for every member of the Bar who occupies it after me, the duty of the Attorney-General in this particular

  675
  matter will be to act with a sole eye to the public service, and with a sole eye to see whether every particular case is one proper to be taken up by the Director of Public Prosecutions.
  MR. BONDsaid the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition had charged them with wasting the time of the House, but what did he think of the action of his followers in thus, without explanation, impugning the action of the Attorney-General?
  MR. LOUGH: The matter was fully discussed on the last occasion.
  MR. BOND: When most hon. Members now present were not in the House. He thought the Motion of the hon. Member opposite, particularly having regard to the contemptuous way in which it was moved, was an abuse of the forms of the
  House. The moving of such a Motion, in order to bring a railing accusation against the Attorney-General—a Motion in which, in fact, there was no substance—was as gross a waste of the time of the House as anything that might be done on his side of the House by way of meeting a rather discreditable manœuvre. After all, it did not follow that the opinion given by the Attorney-General was wrong. All men were fallible, even Judges, and it was a matter of notoriety that the ruling of the Judge as to the applicability to the case of the Larceny Act had not passed unquestioned. Therefore it was not by any means clear that the opinion of the Attorney-General was really wrong.
  Question put
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 173; Noes, 237. (Division List No. 68.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Lament, Norman

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Emmott, Alfred

  Langley, Batty

  Allen, Charles P.

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)

  Ambrose, Robert

  Fenwick, Charles

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Ffrench, Peter

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Findlay, Alexander (Lanark, NE

  Levy, Maurice

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Lloyd-George, David

  Bell, Richard

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Lundon, W.

  Bonn, John Williams

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Blake, Edward

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Boland, John

  Freeman-Thomas, Captain, F.

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Brigg, John

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Broadhust, Henry

  Gladstone, Rt Hn. Herbert John

  M'Crae, George

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  M'Kean, John

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Grant, Corrie

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick)

  Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.)

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Mooney, John J.

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Hammond, John

  Morley, Rt Hon. John (Montrose)

  Caldwell, James

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Moss Samuel

  Cameron, Robert

  Harrington, Timothy

  Murphy, John

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Harwood, George

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Cawley, Frederick

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary, Mid

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.

  O'Brien, Patrick Kilkenny)

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Crombie, John William

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  0'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N)

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

  Johnson, John

  O'Mara, James

  Delany, William

  Joicey, Sir James

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea)

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Dobbie, Joseph

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Priestley, Arthur

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Rea, Russell

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Reddy, M.

  Duffy, William J.

  Kilbride, Denis

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Kitson, Sir James

  Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th)

  Edwards, Frank

  Lambert, George

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R (Northants.

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

  Weir, James Galloway

  Roche, John

  Stevenson, Francis S

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Rose, Charles Day

  Sullivan, Donal

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Runciman, Walter

  Taylor, Theordore C. (Radcliffe)

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Tennant, Harold John

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Seely, Maj J. E. B. (Isle of Wight)

  Thomas. David Alfred (Merthyr)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Shackleton, David James

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawiek, B.)

  Tomkinson, James

  Wood, James

  Sheehy, David

  Toulmin, George

  Woodhouse, Sir J.T (Huddersf'd)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Young, Samuel,

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Waldron, Laurence Ambrose

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Slack, John Bamford

  Wallace, Robert

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Lough and Mr. Herbert

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Wason Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Lewis.

  NOES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Hops. J. F. (Sheffield. Brightside)

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Honer, Frederick William

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Hoult, Joseph

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Davenport, William Bromley-

  Howard. John (Kent, Faversh'm

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham)

  Haword, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

  Arnold-Forster, Rt Hn. Hugh O.

  Denny, Colonel

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt Hon. Sir H.

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Hunt, Rowland

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.)

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Balcarres, Lord

  Elliott, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hou. Col. W.

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A J.(Manch'r)

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r.

  Kerr, John

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds)

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Finlay, Sir R. B. (Inv'rn'ssB'ghs)

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

  Lawson, Hn. H. L. W. (Mile End)

  Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. NR

  Bartley, Sir George C. T.

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  FitzRoy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Leveson, Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Forster, Henry William

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.)

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Bigwood, James

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Bingham, Lord

  Gardner, Ernest

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Garfit, William

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.)

  Bond, Edward

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  Lowe, Francis William

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Gordon, Hn. J. E (Elgin & Nairn)

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Bowles, Lt.-Col. H. F. (Middlesex

  Gordon, Maj. Evans (T'rH'mlets

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Brassey, Albert

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth)

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John.

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Bull, William James

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Campbell, Rt Hn. J. A. (Glasgow)

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Gretton, John

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh, W.

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire)

  Hain, Edward

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Malcolm, Ian

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A. (Worc.

  Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'derry)

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Chapman, Edward

  Hare, Thomas Leigh.

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriesshire

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Cohen, Benjamin, Louis

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Milvain, Thomas

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Montagu, Hon. Scott (Hants.)

  Colomb, Rt. Hon. Sir John C. R.

  Heath, Sir James (Staffords. N W.

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Morgan, David J. (Walthamsto'

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Holder, Augustus

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Morrison, James Archibald

  678

  679

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Ridley, S. Forde

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Mount, William Arthur

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Tuff, Charles

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Turnour, Viscount

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Vincent, Col. Sir C E H (Sheffield)

  Myers, William Henry

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Samuel, Sir Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Welby, Lt,-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.)

  Percy, Earl

  Shaw-Stewart. Sir H. (Renfrew)

  Wharton. Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne)

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Smith. HC. (North'mb. Tynesid'

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Smith, Rt Hn J. Parker (Lanarks)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharpe

  Smith. Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

  Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H. (Yorks.)

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lanes.

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Purvis, Robert

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M 'Taggart

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Pym, C. Guy

  Stock, James Henry

  Wortley, Rt, Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Randles, John S.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Wylie, Alexander

  Rankin, Sir James

  Stroyan, John

  Ratcliff, S. F.

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Viscount Valentia.

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Renwick, George

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Original Question again proposed.
  *MR. LOUGHthought the sum of money proposed to be granted as compensation to Mr. Adolf Beck deserved the attention of the House. He believed these cases of arrest, wrongful imprisonment, and unfairly conducted trials were not nearly so rare as a great many people believed. He thought that the conduct of the police in this particular case required the attention of the Home Secretary. In the case of this unfortunate man he was found to be innocent of all the charges made against him, and for many years he suffered the most tremendous persecution. He felt that the police were greatly to blame because they arrested this man upon very inadequate evidence. There was too much disposition on the part of the police to arrest anybody without reliable evidence, trusting that something would turn up afterwards. The police arrested Mr. Beck on the statement of a woman, and he was arrested and kept in confinement while an attempt was made to get up a case against him. There had been other notorious cases in London recently, and he was surprised at the number of cases within six months in which arrests were made and the accused detained without a scrap of evidence made against them. In this instance the evidence produced
  680
  was of such a character that the police ought to have received it with the greatest caution. A number of women who had suffered grevious wrongs were brought to see Mr. Beck, and they were naturally anxious to pick out the man who had injured and robbed them. Of these women only about one half identified Mr. Beck, but the police did not seem to have taken warning from that fact. He believed that prisoners were far too lightly cast into prison, often without any evidence and on slight suspicion. If Mr. Beck had been left at large for a week or two he would have found it difficult to get away, and if more leisure had been shown by the police in going about this matter there would have been no detriment to the carrying out of the law.
  When they came to the conduct of criminal prosecutions he thought there was much ground for complaint. The case passed rapidly out of the hands of the police, and he thought the prosecution was proceeded with in a way which showed a determination to secure a conviction. He had blamed the police for the avidity with which they swallowed everything the women who accused Mr. Beck said to them. But how much more blameworthy were the solicitors, counsel, and especially the

  681
  Crown prosecutor, who ought to have been specially careful to avoid irregularity. It seemed to him that when the Crown prosecutor did get charge of the case he did not proceed with due regard to the maxim that the prisoner should have the benefit of the doubt. Evidence was brought forward in the early stages of the case which was found to be of a shaky character. At the police Court it, was assumed all along that Mr. Beck was the same as Smith who committed similar crimes fifteen or twenty years ago. There was considerable prejudice created against the man at the commencement of the trial through that assumption on the part of the police. Afterwards the prosecutor began to have some doubts, and he did not give the evidence which he had intended to bring. Mr. Beck's solicitor asked for the production of proof that Mr. Beck was the same man as Smith. Why was not that assistance given to the defending counsel? Should not the object of the Crown prosecutor be to arrive at the truth rather than to convict the prisoner? The whole proceedings were carried out with the idea of obtaining a conviction, as if counsel and solicitors had some inducement, perhaps, to get promotion or credit by securing a conviction rather than by actually getting at the facts of the case.
  There was great reason for complaint as to the manner in which the case was carried on when it finally came before the Judge. When it was found that the defence was going to bring out that Mr. Beck was not the same man as Smith, the prosecution refused to bring out at the trial the evidence which was used in the police Court. The Judge decided that it was irrelevant to the issue. This proved a very embarrassing proceeding for Mr. Beck's counsel, and the result was that a conviction was secured. No one could look at the difficulties with which the defendant had to contend without feeling that perfectly innocent persons might have false charges brought against them. If this House could do anything to protect others from being placed in equally difficult circumstances it ought to be done. When Mr. Beck was sent to prison he commenced sending
  682
  petitions to the Home Office. One came after another, and it was not until about half-a-dozen had been sent that any attention whatever was given to them. In these petitions Mr. Beck made it clear that there was absolute proof that he could not be Smith who was accused of the crime on a former occasion. Mr. Beck also ascertained that the prison authorities were well convinced of that fact. He really thought that when circumstances of the greatest gravity were brought to the notice of the Home Office they ought to be carefully inquired into. Even then the Home Office tried to sustain the action of the prosecution. When they got information about Smith's identification marks it was sent to the Judge. He did not propose to comment on the action of the Judge. It was the system he wanted to direct attention to. The action of the Home Office was absolutely callous. The prison authorities were not told that the evidence was wrong or anything of that kind. The Judge admitted at the close of his long argumentative letter that the identification marks of Smith proved that he was not the same man. The Judge attached very great importance to the identification marks. What did the Home Office do? The Home Office said, "Sweep away this evidence, blot out the record of the identification marks, give the prisoner we have now got hold of a new number and then all will be right." And so this unfortunate man had to endure a long term of imprisonment. Finally he was released, and the astounding thing was that the same course of events began again. The police again arrested him on doubtful evidence, and again the trial was much the same from the first. Some feeling of doubt had commenced now to get into the mind of the prosecutor, but finally this unfortunate man was committed once more. The remarkable thing in this long course of injustice was that the prosecutor, the Home Office, the police, and the prison authorities did not make the slightest movement in the direction of discovering the truth. It was not until the end of eight years that the mistakes which these great departments had been making were disclosed to the public.
  He did not think there could be a case which could reflect more seriously

  683
  on the criminal procedure of this country. There were some features of the inquiry which was held at the instance of the Government to which the most serious attention of the House ought to be directed. Mr. Beck who was absolutely innocent had been "pardoned." What had he done that he had to be pardoned? It was not Mr. Beck who required to be pardoned. It was the Home Office, the police, and the Crown prosecutor who required pardon. He wished to know whether any change was going to be made in the criminal law in order to prevent, such miscarriages of justice. In answer to a Question which he recently asked the Prime Minister he got the unsympathetic Answer that cases of this kind were extremely rare. He did not believe they were rare. He had heard of a good many cases himself, and he had no doubt that hon. Members connected with the legal profession had heard of many of those cases. The inquiry had been most satisfactory in so far as the bringing out of the facts was concerned, but the result arrived at up to the present had been of the most inadequate character. Four recommendations had been made by the Committee of Inquiry. They refrained from recommending that there should be a Court of Appeal. That was a matter that should be inquired into more fully. He did not think that an effective remedy would be obtained for such miscarriages of justice unless a Court of Criminal Appeal was set up. The Inquiry Committee recommended that there should be a means of referring to a superior Court on points of law. He had tried to study the Bill introduced by the Government in another place, but he was not sure that it would be effective for the purpose. The Committee also recommended that there should be more co-ordination of the departments connected with the Home Office. He wished to hear from the Home Secretary whether anything was being done in regard to that.
  The whole of the evidence in this case had produced on his mind the painful impression that people were not nearly so safe from the possibility of arrest and cruel treatment in this country as they had thought. Whenever any charge was made against
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  a man, either criminal or civil, he was often placed in the most difficult position, with few friends about him. The facts of this case showed that a perfectly innocent man might be placed in these difficult circumstances. It was the duty of the House to protect the innocent. The passion for conviction by the police and the Crown prosecutors, and the refusal of assistance to the defence, struck him as most lamentable. It was better that a thousand guilty persons should be set free than that one innocent person should be unjustly convicted and sent to prison. Although it might be said by the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary that if he moved the reduction of the Vote by £100 that, if successful, would only deprive Mr. Beck of that amount of the proposed indemnity; still it was the only way in which they could bring the case under review, and he moved accordingly that the amount of the Vote be reduced by £100.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Item BBB (Compensations for Wrongful Imprisonment) be reduced by. £100."—(Mr. Lough.)
  SIR ALBERT ROLLITsaid he agreed with his hon. friend that the Report of the Committee on Mr. Beck's case was not pleasant reading to those interested in the administration of justice in this country. Very few of those spoken of in the Report came out of the inquiry satisfactorily. Certainly many of the witnesses had lamentably distinguished themselves, and among them the class of experts in hand-writing. The Home Office was, he thought, from time to time, clearly put on its guard. The officials of that Department ought to have made much earlier inquiry and representations, which would probably have led to the discovery of this great miscarriage of justice. Even those responsible for the conduct of the case in Court, both for the prosecution and the defence, and even the Judges, seemed not to be free from our doubts as to the wisdom of the proceedings in a matter affecting the liberty of the subject and the administration of justice. But he could not go with his hon. friend when he made such strong reflections on the police. The reflections in the Committee's Report

  685
  were made not on the police but on other officials, and it was largely due to an intelligent police officer and not to others that justice was ultimately done. The Report as a whole certainly demanded grave consideration, and he agreed it ought to lead to some improvement in the law itself, apart from the administration of the law. The principal charge was that of obtaining jewellery from women under false pretences; but there was another charge, that of a previous conviction. Such was the irony of the case, that it was probably out of consideration for the prisoner that the second charge was not proceeded with. If it had been, and proof demanded, probably justice would have been done, for one physical fact would have been conclusive. He could not help thinking that those who were responsible for the absence of the fullest consideration of the charge of previous conviction were highly reprehensible. He thought there was often too great a disposition to take a charge of that description as proved without serious investigation. In this case, if there had been more full inquiry, probably justice instead of injustice would have been done.
  Another sad reflection was that such a double miscarriage of justice should have occurred in the case of the life of one single person; whereas one would have thought that such an event could hardly have happened at all, even as an accidental coincidence. He would not carry his observations on that point further; but he urged that it was a most serious matter that for nine or ten years, including police supervision, a man marred of every prospect of life, should have been severely punished personally, and should have been robbed of his reputation. Such events gave some misgiving whether the percentage of cases of injustice, even in these days of high civilisation, was quite as low as it should be. He thought the Committee was indebted to his hon. friend for suggesting the matter for consideration and personally he was of opinion that there should be something in the way of a rehearing other that that provided under our existing judicial system; and he had himself
  686
  brought in Bills to effect that object some two or three years ago, and long before this case. He could not help thinking that his hon. friend was well advised when he said that, when Mr. Beck was undergoing imprisonment, when the mark of previous conviction was attached to him, and when that was shown not to have been proved, the Home Office, instead of merely removing the sign of previous conviction, should have made investigation to see whether Mr. Beck ought to have been convicted of the charge at all. He hoped the Home Secretary would take care that such measures were adopted as to prevent the possibility of any such similar occurrence in the future.
  He wished to add a word from the personal point of view of Mr. Beck. Mr. Beck he did not know; but that Gentleman had had communicated to him one or two of the circumstances mentioned to the Committee. It seemed to him that Mr. Beck's personal injuries had not been adequately considered. The compensation originally offered was £2,000, and that was raised to £5,000, or more than doubled. That very alteration appeared to him—with the same materials before the Home Office on both occasions—to show a degree of latitude and doubt on the part of the Home Office which left room for further consideration still. He submitted that if there was, as he believed, truth in the circumstances of the case placed before the Home Secretary by Mr. Beck, by way of memorial, and that they were well founded, the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary should consider whether or not, in justice to Mr. Beck, he was not bound, at any rate, to appoint a Committee, either of this House or a Departmental Committee, which should look into the whole facts, and deal with them from quite a different point of view from that taken by the previous Committee. That previous Committee consisted of the most eminent men and made a most able Report, but they dealt with the question in its public and judicial aspects. There was, however, a personal and financial standpoint in relation to Mr. Beck which that Committee had not considered. He submitted that, though £5,000 might from one point of view be an adequate compensation, from another aspect it could

  687
  be no adequate compensation; and no effort should be spared to do adequate justice to a man whose whole life had been ruined by the action of the State. There could be no more complete vindication of Mr. Beck's personal character than the Report of the Committee, so far as words could effect that. The Committee had declared that there was no shadow of foundation for any of the charges and no reason for supposing that Mr. Beck had any connection with them. But it had to be remembered that for nearly ten years Mr. Beck had suffered every possible ignominy, and that his financial losses had never been inquired into by the Committee at all. The right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary, should give consideration to that point. The public aspect of Mr. Beck's position and demands had been inquired into, but not the losses to him as an individual; and if there were any losses to this individual the House had a right to demand that these should also be compensated.
  Mr. Beck was to receive under this Vote £5,000; but that gentleman assured him that owing to the expenses he had incurred in his defence he would actually receive no more than £3,000. Mr. Beck informed him that he had agreed to accept £5,000 simply as compensation for his personal injuries, the injustice done to him, and the suffering he had endured; but that his agreement did not cover anything in the shape of actual financial losses which he had sustained. The statement made to him was that at the time of Mr. Beck's apprehension and conviction he had large commercial interests, and interests in land and other properties of great, though possibly, speculative value. He had not only the promise, but the actual enjoyment, of a prosperous business career. Owing to Mr. Beck's incarceration, he understood that he had had to make great sacrifices, because many of his interests were, to a large extent, in Norway, and it was, therefore, impossible that he could manage those affairs from prison in this country. The right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary had the particulars of Mr. Beck's claims in that respect before him, amounting to many times the £5,000 proposed to be given him by this Vote, and he would like the right, hon.
  688
  Gentleman to consider them with the view of raising the amount due to Mr. Beck, or of allowing them to go before some impartial Committee for proof and consideration. He knew that his right hon. friend would possibly say that these were the mischances of life, incidents of even an advanced civilisation, the risk of which had to be taken by every individual citizen, and that £5,000 possibly equalled or exceeded any sum previously offered under such circumstances by this or any other country. But he held that Mr. Beck's case was essentially different from any other; he had endured two wrongful and unjust convictions against him in one life and his personal and commercial position was very different from that of any previous ordinary convict even wrongfully convicted. He hoped, under these circumstances, the House would have a sympathetic regard, not only to the question of the public rights which ought to be vindicated, but also to the individual rights of Mr. Beck. He ventured to say £5,000 was inadequate compensation bearing in mind the deductions that had to be made for the necessary expenses that Mr. Beck had been put to, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would see his way, even at this eleventh hour, to increase it, for such compensation was a first charge on our civilisation.
  MR. ASQUITHsaid he was not surprised that his hon. friend should have thought fit to raise this discussion. There was no morn appalling experience than that an innocent man should be wrongly convicted and suffer punishment. The Government had been perfectly right, in the exceptional circumstances of this case, in proposing that some solatium, at any rate, should be given out of the Exchequer. The hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had rightly said that pecuniary compensation for such sufferings was impossible. He did not propose to enter on personal aspects of the case. He had no doubt the Government had carefully considered them. He desired, rather, to make one or two observations on the more general considerations of public policy which the case suggested. It was said, with a certain amount of truth, that such a case was not likely to

  689
  recur. It involved, indeed, a conjunction of coincidences which might well be described as a real tragedy of error. They were not likely, it was said, to have two men whose handwriting was so similar and also who were in face so like one another that a number of witnesses, quite independently, swore to the identity of one, while apparently describing the other. But the improbability of a recurrence did not answer his plea. The fact that such a thing had occurred, and might possibly occur again, justified the contention that the whole of the machinery concerned should be exposed to due and vigilant scrutiny. He did not agree that any blame attached to the police. An impartial Committee, strongly constituted, had concluded that no shadow of blame attached to them. They did their duty, not only according to the ordinary standards, but with exceptional vigilance, and to them the ultimate establishment of Mr. Beck's innocence was largely due. They might, therefore, leave the police out of the case. The first mistake, indeed the mistake which was the origin of all the subsequent mistakes, the Committee said, was a mistake of the law on the part of the Judge. On that he expressed no opinion of his own. He was bound to accept the law laid down by authorities of so much weight. If there had not been, according to them, a misruling on the part of the Judge who presided at the trial, or if that misruling could have been sot right by some tribunal competent to the task, the mischief would have been avoided. The inference to his mind was clear—and it was in favour of a conclusion at which he had arrived twenty years ago, and which had not in the least been shaken by administrative experience at the Home Office—there ought to be in this country, as in every other civilised country, some form of criminal appeal. He was not pretending for a moment to sketch out what the mode of procedure ought to be; but he welcomed as an instalment in that direction the recommendation of the Committee, which had been acted upon by the Government to make it compulsory on the part of a Judge, when a point of law was raised on a criminal trial, to state a case for the consideration of another Court.
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  But here he must part company with the Cammittee in so far as it suggested that the Home Office was guilty of some breach of duty in not setting that mistake of law right. In his opinion, and he could not state it too clearly, it was not the duty of the Home Office to deal with the state of the law. Mistakes in law were properly dealt with by a judicial tribunal; and the Home Office was bound to take the law as laid down at a trial by a Judge of the Superior Court, or of Assize or Central Criminal Court, upon the interpretation of a statute or the admissibility of evidence. The notion of setting up a Committee formed of a little body of selected lawyers to take to pieces the findings of Judges was a wholly impractical solution. Where were such gentlemen to come from? Were they to be Civil servants? Were they to be gentlemen called to the Bar or admitted as solicitors, and who, through no fault of their own, were without the practical experience which came from the main pursuit and business of their lives? What principle would be applied to the selection of half-a-dozen gentlemen to be entrusted with the duty of reviewing judicial decisions? He dismissed the suggestion as wholly impracticable. The original mistake was one of law, and in that he did not think the Home Office was to blame. Where he thought it was to blame was when it was discovered, as it was, after the unfortunate man had been two years in prison by evidence beyond all cavil, that his supposed identity with Smith, a person convicted of a similar offence, was disproved. When the identity of the two men was disproved by the new evidence the Home Office did right in forwarding that new evidence to the learned Judge who tried the case; and, seeing that the actual documents were forwarded, how the Judge could have treated it as other than official evidence, when if he had read it he would have seen that it was the official document of the prison authorities showing that one man was circumcised and the other was not, remained an unexplained mystery. Where the Home Office went wrong was when they acquiesced in the opinion of the learned Judge that, whether or not the two men were the same, the stream of other evidence was sufficient to convict.

  691
  When the Home Office discovered that Smith and Beck were not the same person they should have pursued the investigation further. Here they committed an error of judgment.
  As to changes in the Home Office machinery which would make a recurrence of such an unhappy affair impossible he had one or two suggestions to make. First, he was surprised that the case was not submitted to the head of the Department. In every case which presented points of substantial doubt and difficulty, and in which the issues were so serious, a final decision ought not to be taken until the responsible head of the Home Office had had an opportunity of considering all the facts. Without arrogating to the Minister any superhuman powers of intuition, there was the advantage of bringing a fresh mind to bear on the circumstances. In the second place, there should be closer and more active co-ordination between the several Departments, between the police, the Public Prosecutor, and the Criminal department of the Home Office. He could not doubt that if there had been a little more constant communication between the departments associated with the machinery of justice the grave error committed might have been remedied earlier. Lastly, there should be a strengthening of the Criminal Department of the Home Office by an infusion of gentlemen with practical experience of the administration of the law. He dissented altogether from the censure which had been applied to the clerks at the Home Office who prepared the minutes. The high qualifications of first-class clerks in the Civil Service were universally recognised, and anybody with experience at the Home Office must acknowledge with gratitude the efficient service the clerks of that Department rendered. But the burden cast upon them should not be too heavy. They should be adequate in numbers. If the discussion assisted towards the smooth working of the machinery of the Home Office it would be useful, and although nothing could compensate the unfortunate victim of the unhappy blunder, he hoped in the result a recurrence would be prevented.
  *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT: I certainly cannot complain of the excellent tone and temper by which this debate has been characterised. I think we are all actuated by the same idea. We all admit that a grave miscarriage of justice has taken place, and our great desire is to render the recurrence of such a miscarriage impossible. I cannot help thinking that the hon. Member who initiated this debate has not read very carefully either the Report or the recommendations of the Committee, or possibly the case itself, because he has certainly made a suggestion which, with the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken, I join in strongly repudiating, viz., that there is a charge against the conduct of the police in the matter.
  *MR. LOUGHsaid his remarks on that point had been entirely misunderstood. He agreed with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Fife that the police behaved well in this case, except on one point, and that was the readiness with which the moment a complaint was made they clapped somebody into prison. Why could they not have waited a week or two to make good their case?
  *MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: That is a different point. It is not what I understood the hon. Gentleman to say, but I at once accept his disclaimer, I am only anxious to make it perfectly clear that the police behaved properly in this case, and that that was the unanimous finding of the Committee. My duty has been greatly lightened by the excellent speech of the right hon. Gentleman opposite in defence of the Department of which he was at one time the head. That defence comes much better from him than it would have done from me who am at present in charge of the Home Office, but I cordially endorse all that he has said about the staff, who, I think, with all deference to the Committee, have received in the Report rather less consideration than they deserved.
  But what the Committee will chiefly desire to hear from me is how far we propose to carry out the recommendations of the Committee. Perhaps I might first allude to the appointment

  693
  of the Committee of Inquiry. I assure the House that when this case was brought to my notice in July last there was no delay whatever in taking action in favour of the unfortunate man Mr. Beck. Directly we were informed by the police that it had been established that John Smith, and not Adolf Beck, was the author of the frauds in 1904, and that there was the strongest possible presumption that John Smith and not Adolf Beck was responsible for the frauds in 1896, we at once took steps for the provisional release of Mr. Beck, which was carried out on July 19th, and was confirmed a few days afterwards by a free pardon in respect of both convictions. A strong desire was expressed at the time, not only that there should be compensation, but also that an exhaustive inquiry should be made into this miscarriage of justice. We at once set about the appointment of a Committee, and I think both this House and the country generally were perfectly satisfied as to the impartiality of the Committee we appointed. We gave the Committee the freest possible hand in the conduct of the inquiry; they had at their disposal every document in the Home Office connected with the case. The Committee themselves state in their Report that every assistance was given them by the officials of the Department, and that they were given a perfectly free hand as to whether their proceedings should be conducted in public or otherwise. I have heard it said that there was considerable delay in the appointment of this Committee. I will only point out in passing that Parliament had separated and the Courts were not sitting, and under such circumstances it is not an easy matter to get together an important Committee of this sort. There was no avoidable delay in the appointment of the Committee, and I am glad to think that the personnel of the Committee give complete satisfaction.
  In their Report the Committee, first of all, acquit the police of all blame, and they criticise the action of a prison governor for not fully recording the marks of the convict Smith. They also criticise an officer of the Public Prosecutor's Department, who had charge of the prosecution, for not paying enough
  694
  attention to facts which might have shown that Mr. Beck was not the same person as Smith. In their next finding the Committee state that the Recorder of London, who tried Mr. Beck in 1896, made the cardinal error which led to the miscarriage of justice by giving a ruling—which the Committee think was wrong in law—that excluded evidence which the Committee believe would have established Mr. Beck's innocence. Then they criticise certain subordinate members of the Home Office staff for failing to see that the evidence which the Judge excluded ought to have been considered, and for failing to see the full bearing on the case of the fact, discovered by the Home Office in 1898, that Smith was circumcised, and that, therefore, Mr. Beck could not be Smith.
  What are the recommendations of the Committee based upon that Report? They say, first of all, that as there is at present no power to compel a Judge to state a case for the consideration of the Court of Crown Cases Reserved—if there had been the Committee think the miscarriage would have been remedied—there should be an alteration in the law, and that a short Act should be passed providing that on the motion to the Court of Crown Cases Reserved on good prima facie grounds the Court should have powers to grant a Rule calling on the Crown to support the ruling impugned; in other words, that there should be an alteration in the law to bring up a case to the Court of Crown Cases Reserved, whether the Judge is willing to state a case or not. To meet that recommendation a Bill has been introduced in another place, which, I trust, will before long come before this House. I should like here to say, speaking for myself personally, and, I believe, for several of my colleagues—though the matter has not been considered by the Governmet—that we are in favour of some form of Court of Criminal Appeal, or Court for reviewing criminal cases. Certainly there will be no objection to any proposal of the kind from the Department over which I have the honour to preside.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: In matters of practice as well as in matters of law?
  *MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: We should be out of order in discussing the actual

  695
  form it should take; I am simply expressing a pious opinion in favour of some form of Court of Criminal Appeal in this country. I say that not on behalf of the Government, because the Government have not considered it, but on my own behalf, and I believe the learned Attorney-General fully shares my views. The next recommendation was that in cases involving reference to a Judge the Public Prosecutor, where he had acted, should be consulted. This recommendation has already been carried out. The next recommendation was referred to by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, viz., that the different public authorities concerned should be better co-ordinated to ensure intercommunication of material information, and to make it impossible that material information acquired by one authority, affecting a particular prisoner, should not be communicated to all. Directions have already been given which will secure this in all criminal cases involving a decision of the Home Secretary.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILLasked whether any directions had been given with reference to giving prisoners access to documents, the Commissioners having strongly commented on the fact that there was no power in criminal cases to require the production of documents.
  *MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: I cannot give a categorical answer on that point, but all the recommendations made by the Committee under this head have been carried out by the Department. Another important point to which attention was called by the Committee was with regard to the recording of previous convictions against prisoners, and the prison orders in that respect have been modified. The regulations as to police identification by witnesses have also been remodelled and strengthened, and the regulations as to prisoners' marks have been wholly recast. Since Smith was convicted in 1877, the old mark system, which, as the House will know, was very unscientific, has been superseded—first by the Bertillon system, which in its turn has given place to the finger-print system, which I believe is for this purpose as nearly perfect as possible. Certainly, that system
  696
  would have rendered the mistaking of Mr. Beck for Smith an absolute impossibility. I now come to the recommendations of the Committee with regard to the staff at the Home Office. The Committee say that they—
  "Consider that the failure of the Home Office to rectify the miscarriage of justice was principally due to their want of appreciation of the legal error committed in excluding the evidence for the defence at the 1896 trial, and that the subordinate officials of the Department who deal with criminal work require technical training. They recommend, therefore, that the legal element in the staff should be strengthened."
  I should like to associate myself with the expressions of regret of the right hon. Gentleman opposite at being unable to see eye to eye with the Committee, with all possible deference. I would express my strong regret that before they recommended so important a change in the organisation of the Criminal Department they did not make a direct inquiry into the present constitution of the department and its working; because if they had done so they would have discovered that considerable changes had taken place in the department since 1897–1898 when this case was considered. I regret that before making these sweeping charges against the department they did not call either Sir K. Digby or Mr. Chalmers to give evidence on the point. Further, I cannot help thinking that the Committee have unintentionally done something less than justice to the junior officials of that department, who were not called before the Committee, and had no opportunity of making any explanation of the charges brought against them. There is no doubt that a regrettable mistake was made, but the responsibility must rest chiefly upon the superiors, and that responsibility was most gallantly and loyally accepted by Sir K. Digby before the Committee. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman opposite that such cases are not likely to recur, but that we desire to make their recurrence absolutely impossible. I consider that with the changes which have been made it will be practically impossible for a case of this sort to occur in future, at all events in the same way or to the same degree. I do not think the difficulty would be met by making the staff

  697
  a legal staff, as has been suggested. I have every confidence in the criminal branch of the Home Office, and I consider them entirely deserving of the esteem and confidence of the public. Any set of men who had to deal, as they had to deal, with this most unusual case would, in my opinion, have distrusted, as they distrusted, the defence founded on the mere similarity of handwriting, when compared with the overwhelmingly strong direct evidence for the prosecution. It must be remembered that they dealt with the case as it was presented to them in 1898, and not as we now do in the light thrown on it in 1904. That makes a very considerable difference.
  I should like to associate myself with the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman opposite on the question of strengthening the department. I will only say that we have already relieved the department of a considerable amount of work which they had to perform in addition to their criminal duties, thereby enabling them to concentrate their attention upon those duties. Perhaps the Committee would like to know how that department is manned. At the head of the department there is an Under-Secretary who has had twelve years official experience as one of the County Court Judges of Birmingham, and who has been on several occasions a Commissioner of Assize. He has also been the senior legal Member of the Council of India, and is a lawyer with great experience. The second head of the department is one of the most brilliant Civil servants in this country, and is himself a barrister of some sixteen years standing. The third in the department is also a barrister and has many years experience. It is perfectly true that this particular case was not brought to the attention of the then Secretary of State, Sir Matthew White Ridley; it was dealt with by Sir Kenelm Digby. But I may say, in reference to certain remarks that have been made in the course of the debate, that I am perfectly certain that every single clerk who signs a minute, if he does not write the minute himself, is held to confirm it, and that he never signs it unless he has read it. It seems to be thought that the department is wanting in legal advice. I would point out, on that, that the Secretary of State
  698
  has not only got the legal assistance of his own Department, but that he can always go, and does constantly go, to the Law Officers of the Crown, and even to the Lord Chancellor himself, for advice, which is never refused. I think, therefore, there is every ground for thinking that the best possible legal opinion in the country is at the disposal of the Secretary of State.
  My hon. friend the Member for South Islington expressed the opinion that sufficient compensation had not been given to Mr. Beck. It is, of course, quite impossible to compensate any man adequately for a false imprisonment of six or seven years. The question in such a case is what is a fair solatium to offer in the circumstances. Although the fact does not appear in the Report, this particular matter was most carefully considered by the Committee presided over by the Master of the Rolls, and I am authorised to say that the £5,000 which was given was the sum which was recommended by that Committee, and that it was not included in the Report because they did not think it was within their province to do so. I conferred with the Committee, and I ascertained that that was the amount which they thought was a fair amount to offer, and that sum was offered to Mr. Beck.
  SIR ALBERT ROLLITasked whether that was done without hearing Mr. Beck in any way.
  *MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: It was after hearing the whole of the circumstances of the case as put before the Committee. We had to consider this offer relatively with offers which had been made in the past under somewhat similar circumstances. The £5,000 which was offered to Mr. Beck is the largest amount which has ever been offered in this country to any person who has been placed in similar circumstances, and is greatly in excess of anything that has been given on like occasions in other countries. The sum of £5,000 has only been given once before, and it was given in 1858 to Mr. Barber, a solicitor, who was wrongfully convicted and transported to Norfolk Island, where he suffered great hardships. This was the largest amount ever given before. In 1862 £500 was given to Roscovitch,

  699
  who was convicted of forgery in 1858, and sentenced to six years, penal servitude, of which he served five. It was afterwards discovered that Roscovitch was really guilty, and that he had imposed on the Secretary of State by a clever forgery. In 1879 £1,000 was paid to William Habron, who was convicted of murder, the capital sentence being commuted, and he was subsequently released after three years imprisonment. In 1880 £100 each was paid to Frost and Smith who had been wrongly convictd of burglary; £1,000 to Edmund Galley, a gipsy, convicted of murder in 1836 and transported apparently until 1879, who ultimately received a free pardon and £1,000 "not as an acknowledgment of innocence, but as an act of grace." This occurred in 1881. In 1882 £500 each and expenses were paid to Johnson and Clowes, two respectable farmers who were convicted by perjury of mutilating a man, and who were sentenced to ten years penal servitude, two years of which they served. In 1889 £800 each was paid to Brannagan and Murphy, who were wrongly convicted of burglary and sentenced to penal servitude for life, and they served nine years each. In other cases that have occurred the sums paid have been mostly quite small, ranging between £5 and £10. The only other large sum was £600 paid for a wrongful arrest by the Colchester police, who arrested a man in New Zealand and brought him over to England. In this country and in Italy, Holland, and the United States there are no laws as to compensation, and in Italy, Holland, and the United States no compensation has ever been given. In France there have been twelve cases and the maximum sum paid is £3,000; Belgium, five cases, maximum £40; Germany, one case, £700, and this case is still sub judice; Sweden, 9 cases, maximum £50. I do not see how we could have gone further in this direction, especially having regard to the fact that the Committee which carefully considered the case thought that that would be a proper sum to offer to Mr. Beck.
  MR. MARKHAM: Will the right hon. Gentleman say "Yes" or "No" to the question, "Did you in the first instance offer Mr. Beck £2,000?"?
  *MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: The suggestion in that question is that Mr. Beck was first offered £2,000, and that, because of an attack in a certain newspaper, that amount was increased. That is not so. We offered Mr. Beck, I think the amount was £1,500, before we ascertained what his costs were, and then £2,000 was offered, and no alteration of that sum was made until the Committee had considered the whole case—a consideration which entirely altered the gravity of the case. There is no foundation whatever for the suggestion that we were put up to auction, so to speak, by a newspaper.
  SIR ALBERT ROLLIT: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether Mr. Beck had an opportunity of stating to the Committee what was the financial loss he had sustained?
  *MR. AKERS- DOUGLAS: My memory does not serve me on that point, and I cannot say whether Mr. Beck stated what his loss was. But the Committee considered the point, and they suggested that £5,000 would be a right and proper sum to offer. I apologise to the Committee for the length of my remarks. The chief reason of this Motion is not a vote of censure, which does not apply to myself or to any representative of the Home Office, but I understand that it is prompted by a desire to learn what steps the Government had taken to render as far as possible any repetition of such an injustice in the future.
  MR. ATHERLEY-JONESsaid it was most unfortunate that the time for discussion should be so limited, and he trusted and believed that another opportunity would be afforded at no distant date for discussing many of the questions which were involved in this unfortunate miscarriage of justice. This debate had not been thrown away, even if they only took into account the assurance given by the Home Secretary that the Government, with the assistance of the Law Officers of the Crown, were seriously considering the establishment of a Court of Criminal Appeal. He echoed what had fallen from his hon. friend behind him when he said it should not be confined to mere consideration of

  701
  legal points, but that, under such conditions as might be found practical, a review of the facts of the case should be open to a prisoner who conceived that he had been unjustly convicted. He wished also to associate himself with the expression of opinion from his right hon. and learned friend the Member for East Fife, and the Home Secretary, as to the high character and ability which was displayed by the Home Office officials, and, indeed, by most of the officials of this great Department of State.
  He, however, dissociated himself from the somewhat complacent attitude of his right hon. friend the Member for East Fife and his right hon. friend the Secretary for the Home Department. The House was not satisfied with the action and the inaction of the Treasury and of the police in this matter. He was perfectly sure that he was only expressing the opinion generally entertained when he said that the action of the police had not been altogether satisfactory in the matter of this prosecution. That might be partly due to individual remissness and partly to defects in the system. He was perfectly satisfied that the system of identification which was pursued in regard to prisoners was most unsatisfactory. He said so not for the purpose of finding fault, but in order to direct the attention of the Home Secretary to the matter, so that he might cause some alteration in the system of identification. If a man in good position, well dressed, and of genteel appearance was arrested, and had to be paraded for the purpose of identification, he was probably the only one among those presented for identification who had the appearance of a gentleman. That was an unfortunate thing in the case of Mr. Beck. He was well dressed and presented the appearance of the person who undoubtedly did commit the frauds. The identification was effected in the company of corner boys and loafers. He hoped the Home Secretary would consider whether some more effective mode of identification than this could not be secured. Why was it that when a number of women failed to identify Mr. Beck, this information was not sent to the prisoner's solicitor? He had made a careful examination of the evidence and he was perfectly satisfied that facilities were
  702
  not afforded to the prisoner's counsel or solicitor which might have been. He further called the attention of the Home Secretary to the fact that the prisoner's solicitor applied for documents from time to time to assist him in demonstrating that Mr. Beck and Smith were not one and the same person. These documents were of the most vital importance, for if the solicitor could establish that Mr. Beck and Smith were not the same person, as ultimately turned out to be the fact, Mr. Beck's immediate release would have been attained. The hon. Member did not know that in the whole of his experience of the administration of justice he had ever known a case which provoked one's indignation more than the treatment which Mr. Beck's solicitor received from Sir Robert Anderson. He gave the solicitor the laconic reply that these documents could not be shown and could not be produced. Why not? They were described as confidential. The Inquiry Committee stated that in their judgment there was not the slightest foundation for describing them as confidential. He hoped the House would bear with him when he referred to the peremptory, and what he must describe as the insolent, refusal of the documents. He trusted the Home Secretary would not allow this state of things to continue longer. An inspector and a sergeant of police asked whether, in their opinion, the documents should be produced or not. Could anything be more ludicrous, anything more unintelligent? He hoped that henceforth when it came to the production of any document which might be required in the interest of a prisoner's defence the question whether or not it should be produced would depend on something more than the judgment of an inspector and sergeant of police.
  There were other matters in connection with the conduct of the authorities which certainly required elucidation. How was it when the case was presented at the Old Bailey the solicitor of the Treasury, or the gentleman acting for him, instructed his counsel that Smith and Mr. Beck were one and the same person when he knew, as he must have known, that if these two men were different Mr. Beck could not have been guilty. How was it that the

  703
  counsel for the prosecution was instructed to shut out the admission of evidence which demonstrated beyond the shadow of a doubt that Mr. Beck was not Smith. He said with a full sense of responsibility that the gentleman who represented the Treasury at the trial deliberately instructed counsel to shut out evidence which would have proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that Smith and Mr. Beck were not identical, and that Smith and the criminal of 1896 were identical. That was a matter which had made an impression on the public mind, because it showed that the conduct of the Treasury was deserving of the most severe censure. It did not end there. The public also wanted to know why Inspector Waldeck was removed from the case.
  SIR ROBERT FINLAY: If the hon. Member will look at the Report of the Committee he will see these words—
  "We are quite satisfied that there was nothing whatever to complain of in the conduct of the trial by the prosecution."
  MR. ATHERLEY-JONESsaid he did not care what the Report said. He had read the evidence. He was perfectly prepared to substantiate the statement he had made. He was animated by no feeling against any of the gentlemen in question. Though the Committee said that they did not think any complaint could be made as to the conduct of the prosecution, he said the public were entitled to something more. They were entitled to look at the evidence. It was
  not a matter merely of the Beck case. It was a matter of much larger moment. Every Member of the House, and no one more than the right hon. Gentleman who held the high office of Home Secretary, desired that there should be absolute purity in the administration of justice, and at some later time, when it arose again, he would go into the question of the conduct of the Treasury in this prosecution. No adequate explanation had been given why Inspector Waldeck was removed from the case. He was removed on the plea that he was too busy with other duties. It was curious that Waldeck's removal from the case was coincident with the report by him to Mr. Sims that Mr. Beck and Smith were not one and the same person. He dared say it was all capable of explanation. The Daily Mail, though not a paper to which he was favourably disposed, deserved great credit for the part it took in pressing this matter. The public were now watching for the decision at which the Government would arrive.
  And, it being half-past Five of the clock, the Chairman, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 16th March, proceeded to put the Questions necessary to dispose of the Vote under consideration.
  Question put, "That Item BBB (Compensations for Wrongful Imprisonment) be reduced by £100."—(Mr. Lough.)
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 204; Noes, 257. (Division List No. 69.)

  AYES

  Abraham, William (Cork, NE)

  Caldwell, James

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Cameron, Robert

  Duffy, William J.

  Allen, Charles P.

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Ambrose, Robert

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Dunn, Sir William

  Asquith, Rt Hn HerbertHenry

  Cawley, Frederick

  Edwards, Frank

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Ellice, Capt EC(SAndrw'sBghs)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Emmott, Alfred

  Bell, Richard

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Boland John

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

  Evans,SirFrancisH.(Maidstone)

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Cremer, William Randal

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Brigg, John

  Crombie, John William

  Fenwick, Charles

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Crooks, William

  Ferguson. R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Brown, George M (Edinburgh)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Ffrench, Peter

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

  Findlay, Flexander(Lanark,NE

  Bryce, Rt. Hon James

  Delany, William

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Flynn James Christopher

  Burke, E Haviland-

  Dobbie, Joseph

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Buxton, Sydney, Charles

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Runciman, Walter

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  M'Crae, George

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Gladstone, Rt.Hn.HerbertJohn

  M'Kean, John

  Seely,MajJ.E.B.(Isle of Wight)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Shackleton, David James

  Grant, Corrie

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick

  Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh,N.)

  Sheehy, David

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Mooney, John J.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Morgan, J.Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard

  Morley,Rt.Hon John(Montrose)

  Slack, John Bamford

  Hammond, John

  Moss, Samuel

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Harrington, Timothy

  Murphy, John

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Harwood, George

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R.(Northants

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Newnes, Sir George

  Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D

  Norman, Henry

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Sullivan, Donal

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  O'Brien, F. X. (Cork)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Higham, John Sharpe

  O'Brien,Kendal(TipperaryMid)

  Tennant, Harold John

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W.R.)

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.)

  Tomkinson, James

  Horniman, Frederick John

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.

  Toulmin, George

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  O'Dowd, John

  Ure, Alexander

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Waldron, Laurence Ambrose

  Johnson, John

  O'Kelly, James(Roscommon,N

  Wallace, Robert

  Joicey, Sir James

  O'Malley, William

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Jones,David Brynmor (Swansea

  O'Mara, James

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Jones, William(Carnarvonshire)

  Partington, Oswald

  Wason, JohnCathcart(Orkney)

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Weir, James Galloway

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Kilbride, Denis

  Perks, Robert William

  White, Patrick (Meath, N.)

  Kitson, Sir James

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Whiteley, George (York, W.R.)

  Labouchere, Henry

  Price, Robert John

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Lambert, George

  Priestley, Arthur

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Lamont, Norman

  Rea, Russell

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Langley, Batty

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Wills, Arthur Walters(N.Dorset

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Reddy, M.

  Wilson, John (Durham Mid.)

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Leese, SirJosephF.(Accrington)

  Richards,Thomas(W.Monm'th)

  Wood, James

  Levy, Maurice

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Woodhouse,SirJT.(Huddersf'd)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

  Young, Samuel

  Lloyd-George, David

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Lundon, W.

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Roche, John

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Lough and Mr. Atherley.

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Rose, Charles Day

  Jones.

  NOES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Banner, John S. Harmood

  Butcher, John George

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Allhusen, AugustusHenryEden

  Bartley, Sir George C. T

  Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Bathurst, Hon Allen Benjamin

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Beach,RtHn.Sir MichaelHicks

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Arnold-Forster, Rt.Hn.HughO

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Arrold, Sir William

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Chamberlain,RtHn.J A.(Worc,

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt.Hon.SirH.

  Bigwood, James

  Chapman, Edward

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitzroy

  Bingham, Lord

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Bond, Edward

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith.

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Balcarres, Lord

  Bowles,Lt.-Col.HF.(Middlesex)

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Brassey, Albert

  Collings, Rt Hon. Jesse

  Balfour,RtHon.A.J.(Manch'r.)

  Brodrick, Rt, Hon. St. John

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Balfour,RtHn Gerald W.(Leeds

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Balfour,Kenneth R. (Christch.)

  Bull, William James

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge.

  706

  707

  Craig, CharlesCurtis (Antrim, S.)

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Randles, John S.

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T (Denbigh

  Rankin, Sir James

  Cross, Herb Shepherd (Bolton)

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt Hon CoI.W

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Crossley, Rt Hon. Sir Savile

  Kerr, John

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Keswick, William

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Davenport, William Bromley.

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Renwick, George

  Davies,SirHoratioD.(Chatham)

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Ridley, S. Forde

  Denny, Colonel

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Dickinson, Robert Edmund

  Lawrence,SirJoseph (Monm'th)

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Lawson,Hn H.L.W (Mile End)

  Robinson, Brooke

  Dimsdale, Rt.Hon.SirJosephC.

  Lawson, JohnGrant(Yorks NR

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Dorington, Rt Hon Sir John E.

  Lee,ArthurH (Hants,Fareham)

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers.

  Legge, Col Hon Heneage

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Dyke, Rt.Hon.SirWilliamHart

  Leveson-Gower, FrederickN S

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Lockwood, Lieut-Col. A. R.

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Fergusson,Rt Hn. SirJ.(Manc'r)

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Long,Col.Charles W.(Evesham)

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Lang,Rt.Hn.Walter (Bristol,S.)

  Samuel,SirHarryS. (Limehouse

  Finlay,SirR B.(Inv'rn'ssB'ghs)

  Lowe, Francis William

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lowther, C. (Cumb, Eskdale)

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Fitzroy, Hon. EdwardAlgernon

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Sinclair, Louis Romford

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Lyttelton, Rt, Hon. Alfred

  Smith,Abel H. (Hertford,East)

  Forster, Henry William

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Smith,H.C(North'mb, Tynside)

  Foster,PhilipS.(Warwick,S.W.)

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Smith,RtHnJ.Parker(Lanarks)

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Gardner, Ernest

  M'Arthur, Charles Liverpool)

  Spencer, Sir E. (W.Bromwich)

  Garfit, William

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Stanley,Hon.Arthur(Ormskirk)

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  M'Iver,SirLewis(Edinburgh,W)

  Stanley, Rt.Hon. Lord (Lancs.)

  Godson, SirAugustusFrederick

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Stewart, Sir J.MarkM'Taggart

  Gordon,Hn.J E.(Elgin&Nairn)

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Stock, James Henry

  Gordon,MajEvans-(T'rH'mlets

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Stroyan, John

  Gorst, Rt, Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Maxwell, W.J.H.(Dumfriesshire

  Talbot,Rt.Hn.J G.(Oxf'dUniv.

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Mildmay, Francis Bignham

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Milvain, Thomas

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Greene,HenryD. (Shrewsbury)

  Montagu,Hon.J.Scott (Hants.)

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Tuff, Charles

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Morgan,DavidJ (Walthamatow

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Hain, Edward

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Turnour, Viscount

  Halsey Rt, Hon. Thomas F.

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Vincent,Col. Sir CEH (Sheffield)

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Hamilton, Marq. of(L'nd'nderry

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Walrond Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Mount, William Arthur

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Warde, Col. C. E.

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Welby. Lt.-Col.AC'.E. (Taunton)

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Murray, Col. Wyndham Bath)

  Welby, Sir Charles G.E (Notts.)

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Myers, William Henry

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Heath, SirJames(Staffords.NW

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Whiteley,H.(Ashton-und.Lyne)

  Helder, Augustus

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Peel, Hon. William Robert

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Horner, Frederick William

  Peel,Hn.Wm Robert Wellesley

  Wilson-Todd, SirW.H.(Yorks

  Hoult, Joseph

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Howard,John(Kent,Faversham

  Percy, Earl

  Worsley-Taylor, HenryWilson

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Wortley, Rt. Hon C. B. Stuart

  Hozier, Hon.James HenryCecil

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Wylie, Alexander

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Hunt, Rowland

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir

  Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.)

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Viscount Valentia.

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred

  Purvis, Robert

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Pym, C. Guy

  Original Question put, "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £12,000,
  708
  be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of

  709
  payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1905, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Departments of the Solicitor for the affairs of His Majesty's Treasury, King's Proctor, and Director
  of Public Prosecutions, the Cost of Prosecutions, and other Legal Prosecutions."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 257; Noes, 209. (Division List No. 70.)

  AYES

  Agg-Gardener, James Tynte

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Davenport, William Bromley-

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Davies, Sir Horatio, D (Chatham)

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col. W

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Denny, Colonel

  Kerr, John

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Dickinson, Robert Edmund

  Keswick, William

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O.

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Kimber Sir Henry

  Arrol, Sir William

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Joseph C.

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon John

  Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E.

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon Sir H

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th)

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Lawson, Hn. H. L. W. (Mile End)

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn, Edward

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. NR

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J (Manc'r.

  Lee, Arthur H (Hants, Fareham

  Balcarres, Lord

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

  Finlay, Sir RB (Inv'rn'ssB'ghs)

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W.(Leeds

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.)

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  FitzRoy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Long, Col Charles W (Evesham)

  Banner, John S Harmood-

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Banbury, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Lowe, Francis William

  Bartley, Sir George C. T.

  Forster, Henry William

  Lowther C. (Cumb. Eskdale)

  Bathurst, Hon Allen Benjamin

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

  Gardner, Ernest

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Garfit, William

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth)

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Bigwood, James

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn)

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Bingham, Lord

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'r H'mlets

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Blunden, Colonel Henry

  Gorst, Rt Hon Sir John Eldon

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Bond, Edward

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W

  Bowles, Lt.-Col. H. F. (Middlesex

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Brassey, Albert

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Bull, William James

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Maxwell, W. H. (Dumfrieshire

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Hain, Edward

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Butcher, John George

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J A. (Glasgow)

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Milvain, Thomas

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nderry

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Montagu, Hon. Scott (Hants.)

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Morgan, David J.(Walthamstow

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Hay, Hon Claude George

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. E (Worc)

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Chapman, Edward

  Heath, Sir James (Staffords NW

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Clive, Captain Percy A

  Helder, Augustus

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Mount, William Arthur

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Murray Charles J. (Coventry)

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Horner, Frederick William

  Myers, William Henry

  Colston, Chas, Edw. H. Athole

  Hoult, Joseph

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Howard, John (Kent, Faversham

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Hunt, Rowland

  Peel, Hon. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.)

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Percy, Earl

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Morton

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  Walker Col. William Hall

  Purvis, Robert

  Simeon, Sir Harrington

  Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir William

  Pym, C. Guy

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Randles, John S.

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Warde, Col. C. E.

  Rankin, Sir James

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton)

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Smith, H. C (North'mb. Tyneside

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E (Notts.)

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Smith, Rt Hn J Parker (Lanark)

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Whiteley, H (Ashton-und. Lyne)

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Renwick, George

  Stan ey, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.)

  Williams Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Ridley, S. Forde

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Stock, James Henry

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Stroyan, John

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Robinson, Brooke

  Ta bot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H. (Yorks.)

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Talbot, Rt Hn. J. G. (Oxf'dUniv.)

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Wylie, Alexander

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Tuff, Charles

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Turnour, Viscount

  Viscount Valentia.

  Samuel, Sir Harry S. (Limehouse

  Vincent, Col. C. E. H Sir (Sheffield

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Duffy, William J.

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

  Allen, Charles P.

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Ambrose, Robert

  Dunn, Sir William

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Edwards, Frank

  Johnson, John

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Ellice, Capt EC (S. Andrew's Bghs

  Joicey, Sir James

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Emmott, Alfred

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Bell, Richard

  Evans, Sir Francis H.(Maidstone

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Boland, John

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Kilbride, Denis

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Fenwick, Charles

  Kitson, Sir James

  Brigg, John

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Labouchere, Henry

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Ffrench, Peter

  Lambert, George

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Findlay, Alexander (Lanark, NE.

  Lamont, Norman

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Langley, Batty

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby, Co.)

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Burns, John

  Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.

  Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington)

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Levy, Maurice

  Caldwell, James

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Cameron, Robert

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Lloyd-George, David

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Grant, Corrie

  Lough, Thomas

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick)

  Lundon, W.

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Cawley, Frederick

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Haldane, Rt, Hon. Richard B.

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Hammond, John

  M'Crae, George

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  K'Kean, John

  Condon, Thos. Joseph

  Harrington, Timothy

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

  Harwood, George

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Cremer, William Randal

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.)

  Crombie, John William

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Mooney, John J.

  Crooks, William

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose)

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Moss, Samuel

  Delany, William

  Higham, John Sharpe

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

  Murphy, John

  Dobbie, Joseph

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Newnes, Sir George

  712

  713

  Norman, Henry

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Toulmin, George

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Ure, Alexander

  O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

  Roche, John

  Waldron, Laurence Ambrose

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Wallace, Robert

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Rose, Charles Day

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tepperary, N.)

  Runciman, Walter

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Seely, Maj J. E. B. (Isle of Wight)

  Weir, James Galloway

  O'Dowd, John

  Shackleton, David James

  White, George (Norfolk)

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N)

  Sheehy, David

  White, Patrick (Meath, North

  O'Malley, William

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Whiteley, George (York, W.R.)

  O'Mara, James

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Slack, John (Bamford)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Partington, Oswald

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Wills, Arthur Walters (N. Dorset

  Pease, J A. (Saffron Walden)

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Perks, Robert William

  Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R. (Northant)

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

  Wood, James

  Price, Robert John

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T (Huddersf'd

  Priestley, Arthur

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Young, Samuel

  Rea, Russell

  Sullivan, Donal

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffes

  Reddy, M.

  Tennant, Harold John

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Redmond, John E, (Waterford)

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Herbert Gladstone and Mr.

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries)

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W.R.)

  William M'Arthur.

  Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th)

  Tomkinson, James

  The Chairman, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 16th March, then proceeded to put forthwith the Question, "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £63,930, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the31st day of March, 1905, for Expenditure on the following Services included in the Civil Services Supplementary Estimates, 1904–5.

  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 262; Noes, 207. (Division List No. 71.)

  AYES

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Bartley, Sir George C. T.

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire)

  Allhusen, Augnstus Henry Eden

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn Hugh O.

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J.A (Worc.)

  Arrol, Sir William

  Bigwood, James

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Bingham, Lord

  Chapman, Edward

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Bond, Edward

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Balcarres, Lord

  Bowles, Lt-Col H. F. (Middlesex)

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Brassey, Albert

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W. (Leeds)

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.)

  Bull, William James

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Butcher, John George

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.

  Barry, Sir Francis T.(Windsor)

  Campbell, Rt. Hn J. A. (Glasgow)

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  CLASS III.

  £

  County Courts

  10

  Reformatory and Industrial Schools, Ireland

  860

  Dundrum Criminal Lunatic Asylum, Ireland

  60

  CLASS IV.

  Scientific Investigations, etc.

  9,000

  CLASS V.

  Protectorates

  54,000

  £63,930

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Rankin, Sir James

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Saville

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.

  Ractliff, R. F.

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Kerr, John

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Keswick, William

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Davenport, William Bromley

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Renwick, George

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham)

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Ridley, S. Forde

  Denny, Colonel

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th)

  Robinson, Brooke

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph C.

  Lawson, Hn. H. L. W. (Mile End)

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N. R

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Lee, Arthur H.(Hants, Fareham)

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Leggge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Man'cr)

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

  Samuel, Sir Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Finlay, Sir R. B. (Inv'rn'ssB'ghs)

  Lowe, Francis William

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lowther, C. (Cumb, Eskdale)

  Shaw-Stewart, Sir H (Renfrew)

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Forster, Henry William

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Smith. H. C. (North'mbTyneside

  Galloway, William Johnson

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Smith, Rt. Hn J. Parker (Lanarks)

  Garfit, William

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Spear, John Ward

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn)

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.)

  Gordon, Maj. Evans (T'rH'mlets

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Stock, James Henry

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Stroyan, John

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriesshire

  Talbot, Rt, Hn. J. G. (Oxf'dUniv.

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G.

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.)

  Milvain, Thomas

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Montagu, Hon J. Scott (Hants.)

  Tuff, Charles

  Hain, Edward

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Morgan, David J (Walthamstow)

  Turnour, Viscount

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Vincent, Col Sir C. E. H (Sheffield)

  Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nderry

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Mount, William Arthur

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Warde, Colonel C. E

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E (Taunton)

  Heath, Sir James (Staffords, N. W

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.)

  Helder, Augustus

  Myers, William Henry

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Whiteley, H. Ashton-und. Lyne

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Willoughby de Eresby. Lord

  Horner, Frederick William

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darl'ngton)

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York., E.R.)

  Hoult, Joseph

  Peel, Hn. W. Robert Wellesley

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Howard, John (Kent Faversham

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H. (Yorks.)

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

  Percy, Earl

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Hunt, Rowland

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Wylie, Alexander

  Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.)

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES-Sir

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Purvis, Robert

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Pym, C. Guy

  Viscount Valentia.

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  Randles, John S.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Allen, Charles P.

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Ambrose, Robert

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  716

  717

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Perks, Robert William

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Bell, Richard

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Price, Robert John

  Boland, John

  Higham, John Sharpe

  Priestley, Arthur

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.

  Rea, Russell

  Brigg, John

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Reckitt Harold J.

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Reddy, M.

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Redmond John E. (Waterford

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Hutchinson Dr. Charles Fredk.

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries)

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Johnson, John

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Burns, John

  Joicey, Sir James

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Jones David Brynmor (Swansea

  Roche, John

  Caldwell, James

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Cameron, Robert

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Rose, Charles Day

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Runciman, Walter

  Campbell Bannerman, Sir H.

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Causton Richard Knight

  Kilbride, Denis

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Cawley, Frederick

  Kitson, Sir James

  Seely, Maj JEB (Isle of Wight)

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Shackleton, David James

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Labouchere, Henry

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Lambert, George

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Lamont, Norman

  Sheehy, David

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Langley, Batty

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

  Law, Hugh Alex (Donegal, W.)

  Sinclair, john (Forfarshire)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Slack, John Bamford

  Crombie, John William

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Smith, Samuel Flint

  Cooks, William

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington)

  Soames Arthur Wellesley

  Levy Maurice

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C R. (Northants

  Davies M. Vaughan' (Cardigan)

  Lloyd, George David

  Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

  Delany, William

  Lough, Thomas

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Lundon, W.

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Dobbie, Joseph

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Sullivan, Donal

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Duffy, William J.

  MacNeil, John Gordon Swift

  Tennant, Harold John

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  Dunn, Sir William

  McCrae, George

  Thomson, F.W. (York, W.R.)

  Edwards, Frank

  M'Kean, John

  Tomkinson, James

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Toulmin, George

  Ellice, Capt. E.C(S Andrw'sBghs

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Mitchel, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.)

  Ure, Alexander

  Emmott, Alfred

  Mooney, John J.

  Waldron, Laurence Ambrose

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Wallace, Robert

  Evans,SirFrancisH(Maidstone)

  Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Moss, Samuel

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Fenwick, Charles

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Ferguson, R.C. Munro (Leith)

  Murphy, John

  Wason, John Catheart(Orkney)

  Ffrench, peter

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Weir, James Galloway

  Findlay, Alexander(LanarkNE

  Newnes, Sir George

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Norman, Henry

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Freeman-Thomas, Captain, F.

  O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

  Whittaker, Thomas palmer

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Furness, sir Christopher

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Wills, Arthur Walters (N Dorset)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary N.)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Grant, Corrie

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Wood, James

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  O'Dowd, John

  Young, Samuel

  Haldane, Rt. Hon, Richard B.

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Hammond, John

  O'Malley, William

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  O'Mara, James

  Mr. Herbert Gladstone and

  Harrington, Timothy

  O'Shaughenssy, P. J.

  Mr. William M'Arthur.

  Harwood, George

  Partington, Oswald

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Question put, "That the Chairman do report these Resolutions to the House."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 256; Noes, 205. (Division List No. 72.)

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. H.

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Warde, Colonel C. E

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Smith, H.C (North'mb Tyneside

  Welby, Lt.-Col A. C. E. (Taunton)

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Smith, Rt. Hn J Parker (Lanarks.)

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.)

  Renwick, George

  Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd

  Ridley, S. Forde

  Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und Lyno

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lancs.)

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Robinson Brooke

  Stock, James Henry

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Stroyan, John

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Wilson-Todd, Sir W H. (Yorks.)

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Wortley, Rt. Hn. C., B. Stuart

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Tuff, Charles

  Wylie, Alexander

  Samuel, Sir Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Turnour, Viscount

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  Vincent, Col Sir C. E. H (Sheffield)

  Alexander Acland-Hood

  Shaw-Stewart, Sir H. (Renfrew

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  and Viscount Valentia.

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  NOES.

  Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.)

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts)

  Lambert, George

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Emmott, Alfred

  Lamont, Norman

  Allen, Charles P.

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Langley, Batty

  Ambrose, Robert

  Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone)

  Law, Hugh Alex (Donegal, W.)

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Atherley-Jones L.

  Fenwick, Charles

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Ffrench, Peter

  Levy, Maurice

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Findlay, Alex. (Lanark, N. E.)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Bell, Richard

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Lloyd-George, David

  Boland, John

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Lough, Thomas

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Lundon, W.

  Brigg, John

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  M'Crae, George

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Grant, Corrie

  M'Kean, John

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwic

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Burns, John

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Mitchell, Ed. (Fermanagh, N.)

  Caldwell, James

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Mooney, John J.

  Cameron, Robert

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Hammond, John

  Moss, Samuel

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Harrington, Timothy

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Harwood, George

  Murphy, John

  Cawley, Frederick

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D.

  Newnes, Sir George

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Norman Henry

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H.

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Higham, John Sharpe

  O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

  O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Crombie, John William

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Crooks, William

  Horniman, Frederick John

  O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Hutchinson, Dr. Chas. Fredk.

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Delany, William

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  O'Dowd, John

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Johnson, John

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Dobbie, Joseph

  Joicey, Sir James

  O'kelly, James (Roscommon, N)

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

  O'Malley, William

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  O'Mara, James

  Duffy, William J.

  Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Partington, Oswald

  Dunn, Sir William

  Kearley Hudson E.

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Edwards, Frank

  Kilbride, Denis

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Elice, Capt E C (S. Andrw's Bghs)

  Kitson, Sir James

  Perks, Robert William

  722

  723

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Price, Robert John

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Priestley, Arthur

  Slack, John Bamford

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Rea, Russell

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Weir, James Galloway

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Reddy, M.

  Soares, Ernest J.

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Spencer, Rt. Hn C. R (Northants)

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

  Reid, Sir R Threshie (Dumfries)

  Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Richards, Thos. (W. Monm'th

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Sullivan, Donal

  Wills, Arthur Walters (N Dorset)

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Roche, John

  Tennant, Harold John

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Wood, James

  Rose, Charles Day

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R)

  Woodhouae, Sir J T (Huddersf'd)

  Runciman, Walter

  Tomkinson, James

  Young, Samuel

  Samuel, Herb. L. (Cleveland)

  Toulmin, George

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

  Ure, Alexander

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Shackleton, David James

  Waldron, Laurence Ambrose

  Mr. Herbert Gladstone and

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Wallace, Robert

  Mr. William M'Arthur.

  Sheehy, David

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Resolutions to be reported upon Thursday; Committee to sit again To-morrow.

  WAYS AND MEANS.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Bowles, Lt.-Col. H. F (Middlesex)

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Brassey, Albert

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Davenport, W. Bromley-

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O.

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham)

  Arrol, Sir William

  Bull, William James

  Denny, Colonel

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Aubrey-Fleteher, Rt. Hn, Sir H.

  Butcher, John George

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow)

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Joseph C.

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Dorington, Rt. Hon Sir John E.

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Cavendish, V. C.W.(Derbyshire

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Balcarres, Lord

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r)

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn J. A. (Worc.)

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.)

  Chapman, Edward

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc.)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Finlay, Sir R. B. (Inv'rn'ss B'ghs)

  Bartley, Sir George C. T.

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Fitzgerald, Sir Robert Penrose

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Forster, Henry William

  Bigwood, James

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Bingham, Lord

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Garfit, William

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  Bond, Edward

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  The Chairman, pursuant to the Order day of the House of the 16th March, put forth with the Questions—
  1. "That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1905, the sum of £626,630 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 261; Noes, 202. (Division List No. 73.)

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn)

  Lowe, Francis William

  Robinson, Brooke

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs)

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Samuel, Sir Harry S. (Limehouse

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Hain, Edward

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W.

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Shaw-Stewart, Sir H. (Renfrew)

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Hamilton, Rt. Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry)

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Smith, Abel H. Hertford, East)

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Smith, H C. (North'mb, Tyneside

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)

  Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G.

  Smith, Rt. Hn J. Parker (Lanarks

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Milvain, Thomas

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Spear, John Ward

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.)

  Spencer, Sir E. W. (Bromwich)

  Heath, Sir James (Staffords. N W)

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.)

  Helder, Augustus

  Morgan, David J (Walthamstow

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Stock, James Henry

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Stroyan, John

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Talbot, John E. (Chichester)

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Horner, Frederick William

  Mount, William Arthur

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Hoult, Joseph

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Howard John (Kent Faversham

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Tuff, Charles

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Myers, William Henry

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Turnour, Viscount

  Hunt, Rowland

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Vincent, Col. Sir C E H (Sheffield)

  Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.)

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Walker, Col. William Hall.

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur F.

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir William H

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John.

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbighs)

  Percy, Earl

  Welby, Lt.-Col A. C. E (Taunton)

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt Hon. Col. W.

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Welby, Sir Chas. G. E (Notts.)

  Kerr, John

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Keswick, William

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-und-Lyne

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Pryce-Jones, Lt-Col. Edward

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Purvis, Robert

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Laurie, Lieutenant-General

  Pym, C. Guy

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

  Randles, John S.

  Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H. (Yorks.)

  Lawson, Hn. H. L. W. (Mile End

  Rankin, Sir James

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks N. R.

  Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Farcham

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Wylie, Alexander

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Renwick, George

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Ridley, S. Forde

  Viscount Valentia.

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

  Boland, John

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Caldwell, James.

  Allen, Charles P.

  Brigg, John

  Cameron, Robert

  Ambrose, Robert

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herb. Henry

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Cawley, Frederick

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Burke E. Haviland

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Bell, Richard

  Burns, John

  Clancy, John Joseph

  726

  727

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

  Jones, Leif Appleby)

  Richards, Thos. (W. Monm'th)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Crombie, John William

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Crooks, William

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Kilbride, Denis

  Roche, John

  Delany, William

  Kitson, Sir James

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Lambert, George

  Rose, Charles Day

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Langley, Batty

  Runciman, Walter

  Dobbie, Joseph

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W)

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall.)

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight),

  Duffy, William J.

  Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

  Shackleton, David James

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Levy, Maurice

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)

  Dunn, Sir William

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Sheehy, David

  Edwards, Frank

  Lough, Thomas

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Ellice, Capt E C (SAndrw's Bghs)

  Lundon, W.

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Slack, John Bamford

  Emmott, Alfred

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  MaeNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Evans, Sir F. H. (Maidstone)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  M'Crae, George

  Spencer, Rt. Hn C. R (Northants)

  Fenwick, Charles

  M'Kean, John

  Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Ffrench, Peter

  Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N)

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Findlay, Alex. (Lanark, N. E.)

  Mooney, John J.

  Sullivan, Donal

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Moss, Samuel

  Tennant, Harold John

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E)

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Murphy, John

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W.R.)

  Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Tomkinson, James

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Newnes, Sir George

  Toulmin, George

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Norman, Henry

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Ure, Alexander

  Grant, Corrie

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Waldron, Laurence Ambrose

  Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick)

  O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

  Wallace, Robert

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W)

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Hammond, John

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Weir, James Galloway

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Harrington, Timothy

  O'Dowd, John

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Harwood, George

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Whiteley, George (York, W.B.)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D.

  O'Malley, William

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Helme, Norval Watson

  O'Mara, James

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H.

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Wills, Arthur Walters (N Dorset)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Partington, Oswald

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Higham, John Sharpe

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Hobhouse, C. E. H, (Bristol, E.)

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Wood, James

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Perks, Robert William

  Woodhouse, Sir J T. (Hudd'rsf'd)

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Young, Samuel

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Price, Robert John

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Hutchinson, Dr. Chas. Fredk.

  Priestley, Arthur

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Rea, Russell

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Herbert Gladstone and Mr.

  Johnson, John

  Reddy, M.

  William M'Arthur.

  Joicey, Sir James

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  2. "That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Hajesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1906, the sum of £28,172,000

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn Sir H

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Arrol, Sir William

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 251; Noes, 201. (Division List No. 74.)

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Garfit, William

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Baird, John George Alex.

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Balcarres, Lord

  Godson, Sir Augustus Fred

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn)

  Martin, Richard Biddulpk

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

  Gordon, Maj Evans- (T'r H'mle's

  Mildway, Francis Bingham

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds)

  Gorst, Rt, Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Goschen, Hon. George J.

  Milvain, Thomas

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.)

  Barry, Sir F. T. (Windsor)

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Bartley, Sir George C. T.

  Greene, Henry D (Shrewsbury)

  Morgan, David J.(Walthamstow

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Benthick, Lord Henry C.

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Hain, Edward

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Bigwood, James

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Mount, William Arthur

  Bingham, Lord

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Hamilton, Rt. Hn Lord G (Mdd'x

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Bond, Edward

  Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Myers, William Henry

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Harris. F. Leverton (Tynem'th)

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Bowles, Lt- Col. H. F. (Middl'x)

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Brassey, Albert

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St John

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley)

  Parkes Ebenezer

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Heath, Sir Jas. (Staffords. N. W)

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Bull, William James

  Helder, Augustus

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Butcher, John George

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Percy Earl

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow

  Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside)

  Pierpoint Robert

  Carson Rt, Hon. Sir Edw. H

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Cavendish, V C W (Derbyshire)

  Horner, Frederick William

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Hoult Joseph

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Cecil, Evelyn Aston Manor)

  Howard, J. (Kent, Faversham

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.- Col. Edward

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

  Purvis, Robert

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A Worc.

  Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

  Pym, C. Guy

  Chapman, Edward

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Hunt, Rowland

  Randles, Johns S.

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.)

  Rankin, Sir James

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Rasch, Sir Frederick Carne

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Jessel, Captain Herb. Merton

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Colston, Chas. Ed. H. Athole

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh

  Remmant James Farquharson

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col W

  Renshaw Sir Charles Bine

  Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S)

  Kerr, John

  Renwick, George

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Keswick, William

  Ridley, S. Forde

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Lambton, Hn. Frederick Wm.

  Robinson, Brooke

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Laurie, Lieut-General

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L

  Davenport, W. Bromley

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham

  Lawrence, Sir J. (Monmouth)

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Denny, Colonel

  Lawson, Hn. H. L. W (Mile End)

  Round, Rt- Hon. James

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N R)

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants Fareham)

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph C.

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E.

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Samuel, Sir Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Lockwood, Lieut,-Col. A. R.

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. Hart

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Shaw-Stewart, Sir H. (Renfrew)

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Long, Col. Chas. W (Evesham)

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward

  Long. Rt, Hn. Walter (Bristol. S

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn Sir J. (Manc'r

  Lowe, Francis William

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Smith, H C (North'mb, Tyneside

  Finch, Rt, Hon. George H.

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Smith, Rt. Hn J Parker (Lanarks)

  Finlay, Sir R, B. (Inv'rn'ss B'ghs

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsm'th)

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lyttelton, Rt, Hon. Alfred

  Spear, John Ward

  Fitz Gerald, Sir Robert Penrose

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

  Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Stanley, Rt, Hon. Lord (Lancs.)

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Stewart, Sir J. Mark. M'Taggart

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Stock, James Henry

  Forster, Henry William

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Stroyan, John

  Galloway, William Johnson

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh, W

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  730

  731

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Wilson-Todd, Sir W H. (Yorks.)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Welby, Lt. -Col. A C. E. (Taunton)

  Wolff, Gustay Wilhelm

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Wylie, Alexander

  Tuff, Charles

  Whiteley, H. (Ashtonund. Lyne)

  Turnour, Viscount

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E H (Sheffield)

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Willoughby, de Eresby, Lord

  Viscount Valentia.

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York. E. R.)

  Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir William H

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork N. E.)

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.

  Moss, Samuel

  Allen, Charles P.

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Ambrose, Robert

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Murphy, John

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Atherley-Jones L.

  Grant, Corrie

  Newnes, Sir George

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick

  Norman, Henry

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Benn, John Williams

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

  Boland, John

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid)

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Hammond, John

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Brigg, John

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

  O'Brien, P. J (Tipperary, N.)

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Harrington, Timothy

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Harwood, George

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Dowd, John

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Burns, John

  Helme, Norval Watson

  0'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

  Buxton, Sydney Charley

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  O'Malley, William

  Caldwell, James

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  O'Mara, James

  Cameron, Robert

  Higham, John Sharpe

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

  Partington, Oswald

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Perks, Robert William

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Price, Robert John

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Priestley, Arthur

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Johnson, John

  Rea, Russell

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

  Joicey Sir James

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Cremer, William Randal

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

  Reddy, M.

  Crombie, John William

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Crooks, William

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries)

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th

  Delany, William

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Kilbride, Denis

  Roberts, John H. (Denbigh.)

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Kitson, Sir James

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Dobbie, Joseph

  Lambert, George

  Roche, John

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Langley, Batty

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)

  Rose, Charles Day

  Duffy, William J.

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Runciman, Walter

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Dunn, Sir William

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Edwards, Frank

  Levy, Maurice

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight)

  Ellice, Capt E C (S Andrw's Bghs)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Shackelton, David James

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Lloyd-George, David

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Emmott, Alfred

  Lough, Thomas

  Sheehy, David

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Lundon, W.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidstone

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Maenamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Slack, John Bamford

  Fenwick, Charles

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Ffrench, Peter

  M'Crae, George

  Soares, Ernest J

  Findlay, Alexander (Lanark, N E

  M'Kean, John

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (Northant

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.)

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Mooney, John J.

  Sullivan, Donal

  732

  733

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannon)

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Tennant, Harold John

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Wood, James

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Weir, James Galloway

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T (Huddersf'd)

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Young, Samuel

  Tomkinson, James

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Toulmin, George

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Ure, Alexander

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Herbert Gladstone and Mr.

  Wallace, Robert

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  William M'Arthur

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Wills, Arthur Walter (N. Dorset)

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  That the Chairman do Report these Resolutions to the House."

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Gust, Henry John C.

  Homer, Frederick William

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Hoult, Joseph

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Davenport, W. Bromley-

  Howard John (Kent, Faversham

  Arnold-Forster Rt. Hn. Hugh O.

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham)

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

  Arrol, Sir William

  Denny, Colonel

  Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

  Atkinson. Rt. Hon. John

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Hunt, Rowland

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.)

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph C.

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse,

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E.

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Ralcarres, Lord

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col W.

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds)

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Kerr, John

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.)

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r)

  Keswick, William

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

  Finlay Sir R. B. (Inv'rn'ss B'ghs)

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Win.

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Laurie, Lieut. -General

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Fitz Gerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Lawson, Hn. H. L. W. (Mile End)

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Lawson John Grant (Yorks. N.R

  Bigwood, James

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants. Fareham)

  Bingham, Lord

  Forster, Henry William

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Garfit, William

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Bowles, Lt. -Col. H. F (Middlesex)

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  Lockwood, Lieut. -Col. A. R.

  Brassey, Albert

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Gordon, Hn. J. E (Elgin & Nairn)

  Long. Col. Charles W (Evesham)

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Gordon Maj. Evans-(T'rH'mlets

  Long. Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Lowe, Francis William

  Butcher, John George

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A (Glasgow

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire)

  Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.)

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Maclver, David (Liverpool)

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Hain, Edward

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Chambelain Rt Hn. J. A. (Wore.)

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Chapman, Edward

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W)

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Hamilton Rt Hn Lord G. (Midd'x)

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry)

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G.

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley)

  Milvain, Thomas

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Heath Sir James (Staffords. N W)

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Helder, Augustus

  Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.)

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Morgan David J. (Walthamstow

  Cross, Herb. Shepheid (Bolton)

  Hope, J. F. (Sherrield Brightside)

  Morpeth, Viscount

  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 247; Noes,196. (Division List No.75.)

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Renwick, George

  Tomlinson, Sir Win. Edw. M.

  Mount, William Arthur

  Ridley, S Forde

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Tuff, Charles

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Tumour, Viscount

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Robinson, Brooke

  Vincent Col. Sir C. E H (Sheffield)

  Myers, William Henry

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Welby Lt. -Col. A. C. E. (Taunton)

  Pease Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Welby Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.)

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton and. Lyne

  Percy, Earl

  Samuel Sir Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Shaw-Stewart Sir H. (Renfrew)

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York. E. R.)

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Smith Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Wilson-Todd. Sir W. H. (Yorks.)

  Pryce-Jones, Lt. -Col. Edward

  Smith H. C (North'mb. Tyneside)

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Purvis, Robert

  Smith Rt Hn J. Parker (Lanarks)

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Pym, C. Guy

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Wylie, Alexander

  Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

  Spear, John Ward

  Randles, John S.

  Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lancs.)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Rankin, Sir James

  Stewart Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Sir Alexander Acland-Hood

  Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

  Stock, James Henry

  and Viscount Valentia.

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Stroyan, John

  Reid, James (Greenook)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Amsworth, John Stirling

  Dunn, Sir William

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Allen, Charles P.

  Edwards, Frank

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

  Ambrose, Robert

  Ellice, Capt E C (S. Andrw's Bghs)

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Emmott, Alfred

  Johnson, John

  Beaumont, Went worth C. B.

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Joicey, Sir James

  Benn, John Williams

  Evans Sir Francis H. (Maidstone)

  Jones David Brynmor (Swansea

  Boland, John

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Fenwick, Charles

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Brigg, John

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Ffrench, Peter

  Kilbride, Denis

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Findlay Alexander (Lanark, N E)

  Kitson, Sir James

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Lambert, George

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Langley, Batty

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)

  Burns, John

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Caldwell, James

  Freeman-Thomas, Captain F)

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Cameron, Robert

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Leese Sir Joseph F. (Accrington)

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Levy, Maurice

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Grant, Corrie

  Lough, Thomas

  Cawley, Frederick

  Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick)

  London, W.

  Charming, Francis Allston

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Macnanmra, Dr. Thomas J.

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

  Hammond, John

  M'Crae, George

  Cremer, William Randal

  Hardie J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

  M'Kean, John

  Crombie, John William

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Crooks, William

  Harrington, Timothy

  Mitchell Edw. (Fermanagh, N.)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Harwood, George

  Mooney, John J.

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Morgan. J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Delany, William

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Moss, Samuel

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Murphy, John

  Dobbie, Joseph

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Higham, John Sharpe

  Norman, Henry

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol. E.)

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William.

  Duffy, William J.

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  736

  737

  O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Tomkinson, James

  O'Brien Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Toulmin, George

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Roche, John

  Ure, Alexander

  O'Connor James (Wicklow, W.)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Wallace, Robert

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Rose, Charles Day

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Runciman, Walter

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  O'Dowd, John

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Wason John Cathcart (Orkney)

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Weir, James Galloway

  O'Kelly James (Roscommon, N.)

  Seely Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  O'Malley, William

  Shackleton, David James

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  O'Mara, James

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Whiteley, George (York. W. R.)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Sheehy, David

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Partington, Oswald

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Slack, John Bamford

  Wills, Arthur Walters (N. Dorset)

  Perks, Robert William

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Price, Robert John

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Wood, James

  Priestley, Arthur

  Spencer Rt. Hn. C. R. (Northauts

  Woodhouse Sir J. T (Hudd'rsn'd)

  Rea, Russell

  Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

  Young, Samuel

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Reddy, M.

  Sullivan, Donal

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries)

  Tennant, Harold John

  Mr. Herbert Gladstone and

  Richards, Thomas (W Monm'th)

  Thomas Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Mr. William M'Arthur

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Resolution to be reported upon Thursday; Committee to sit again To-morrow.

  SUPPLY MARCH 8TH.
  Resolution reported.

  ARMY SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE, 1904–5 (SOMALILAND.)
  That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £550,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1905, for additional Expenditure in respect of the following Army services, viz.:—

  £

  Vote

  1.

  Pay, etc., of the Army

  985,000

  Vote

  2.

  Medical Establishments, Pay, etc.

  21,000

  Vote

  6.

  Transport and Remounts

  265,000

  Vote

  7.

  Provisions, Forage, and other supplies

  260,000

  Vote

  12.

  Miscellaneous Effective Services

  2,000

  Vote

  14.

  Retired Pay, Half-Pay, and other non effective charges for Officers, etc.

  1,000

  738

  £

  Vote

  15.

  Pensions and other non-effective charges for Warrant Officers, Non-Commissioned Officers, Men, and others

  2,000

  1,536,000

  Less Surpluses on other Votes

  386,000

  1,150,000

  Deduct Excess Appropriations in Aid

  600,000

  £550,000

  Resolution read a second time.
  MR. COURTENAY WARNERsaid that this Vote covered a very wide subject, and he regretted that it had come up at so late an hour.
  THE CHANCELLOR Of THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN, Worcestershire, E.)said that if hon. Members opposite desired to discuss the Vote he was perfectly willing to defer it.
  MR. COURTENAY WARNERsaid in that case he would move the adjournment of the debate.
  MR. HERBERT SAMUELasked whether under the Closure Resolution it was not out of order to move a dilatory Motion, this being one of the specified days.
  *MR. SPEAKER: That is so. The adjournment of the debate is a dilatory Motion; therefore I am afraid the hon. Member will have to occupy the remaining few minutes of the sitting.
  MR. COURTENAY WARNER(resuming)said he would conclude by moving a reduction of £250,000. One complaint against this Vote was that it was almost wholly due to lack of foresight. If the War Office were an economical Department always striving to save the taxpayers' money mistakes of £10,000 or £20,000 might occasionally be overlooked, but, unfortunately, they were always making mistakes on the wrong side, and it was the duty of the House carefully to scrutinise all these additional Votes, and to go thoroughly into the mistakes of accounting. The question of Somaliland had had considerable light thrown upon it by the recent treaty which had been brought about by pacific means, and which apparently we might have secured years ago had we gone the right way to work. What the country would want to know was why that was not done, instead of millions of money being spent and many lives lost. Then there was the question of Appropriations-in-aid. He had been told that during the last twelve months the War Office brought under contract 40,000 suits of clothes at 11s. odd. It was then found that the clothes would not be needed before the end of the year, and, therefore, they were sold at a price less than they cost to make. That was the kind of thing that made the accounts of the War Office exceptionally difficult to go into.
  And, it being half-past Seven of the clock, Further Consideration of the Resolution stood adjourned.
  Resolution to be further considered to-morrow.

EVENING SITTING.

  NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY BILL [By ORDER.]
  Read a second time, and committed.
  MR. BELLsaid that he had given notice of an Instruction to the Committee to strike out the clause making certain requirements with regard to the pension fund which the company had provided for its employees. He was sorry to find that in some instances certain companies had used undue influence to compel their employees to become members of such funds. He did not, however, propose to press the Instruction if he received an assurance on behalf of the promoters that no undue influence would be brought to bear on any of the railway servants to become members of the fund. He found that the men in the employ of the North Eastern Company were equally divided in opinion as to the advantages of the fund, and under the circumstances he did not think he would be doing justice either to the Company or to the men if he pressed his Motion.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Bill to leave out Clause 37."—(Mr. Bell.)
  SIR EDWARD GREYsaid that on behalf of the North Eastern Railway Company he was prepared to give the assurance for which the hon. Member asked.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. WHITLEY MR. WHITLEY (Halifax) moved an instruction to the Committee to whom the Bill would be referred, limiting the provisions of Clause 38 to omnibuses, coaches, cars, and other road vehicles conveying persons, luggage, parcels, and goods to and from the company's railway stations. The persons with whom he was acting had not the slightest wish to prevent the facilities for transit in the country districts where there was no such provision at the present time. The only point they desired to take up was that it was a little too much

  741
  to ask Parliament for statutory power to use funds for purposes other than those for which they were originally raised, and possibly to crush out the competition of other means of locomotion by the weight of the company's capital. He was glad to understand from the promoters that there was no such intention in their minds, and that there was a probability that a reasonable agreement might be arrived at.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That it be an Instruction to the Committee to whom the Bill is referred that they limit the provisions of Clause 38 to omnibuses, coaches, cars, and other road vehicles conveying persons, luggage, parcels, and goods to and from the company's railway stations."—(Mr. Wkitley.)
  SIR EDWARD GREYsaid he understood that the object of his hon. friend in moving the instruction was that limiting words should be introduced into the clause protecting tramways especially from what he considered unfair or undue competition. Owing to the powers exercised by railway companies under this clause he thought it not unreasonable his hon. friend should desire some safeguard of the kind suggested. He thought the promoters would be prepared to say that there should be nothing in the section which would authorise the company to run an omnibus in any borough or urban district otherwise than those from the stations of the company. He was not sure that those words went the whole length which his hon. friend desired, but he thought they indicated, definitely, willingness on the part of the company to consider some safeguard such as was suggested. At the same time the suggestion as it stood would be impossible. Supposing his hon. friend's Instruction were carried, it would be impossible for a railway company running an omnibus to a village six miles away to drop anyone on the return journey at an intermediate village three miles away. He suggested that the Bill should be allowed to proceed to the Committee, and then, if an entirely satisfactory arrangement was not arrived at, his hon. friend could raise the point at a subsequent stage.
  SIR CHARLES RENSHAWsaid he feared that if the Instruction were agreed to it would prevent a useful extension of the proposed power in rural districts. He was one of those who were watching with interest the co-operative movements intended to place agriculture on a sounder basis, and he attached special importance to the facilities offered by railways and proposals of this kind. The hon. Member for Halifax spoke as representing the tramway interest. The statutory powers which the railways enjoyed had been seriously affected by the competition of tramways, but they had had to submit to it. The railways admitted that they constituted a substantial gain to the travelling public, but what the promoters of the Bill asked for was that the facilities which tramways had given in the cities might be extended far beyond the bounds to which it was possible that the tramway system would ever extend, and so afford agriculturists an opportunity of putting their commodities on the market in the most economical way. It was on the lines of that clause that the great future development of agriculture would probably take place, and he, therefore, hoped the House would never agree to the Instruction proposed.
  MR. ATHERLEY-JONESsaid he thought the power which would, under the clause in dispute, be accorded to the railway company, would be used to the hindrance and obstruction of the development of tramway traction by private and municipal enterprise. It authorised a railway to own a tramway, and it would then be in the power of a railway company enjoying a monopoly to prevent a tramway company or local authority from supplying public wants. He would reserve his right of opposing the Bill on the Report Stage unless it was provided that the power which this clause conferred was not to be applied to boroughs or urban districts.
  MR. WHITLEYsaid he thought the assurance given by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Berwick was sufficient to enable them to pass the Bill for the present. He understood the right hon. Gentleman to be willing to insert

  743
  certain words which he had read, and further, he would consider in Committee whether further words were needed to carry out his intention. He and the hon. Baronet were practically agreed, therefore, and it only remained for the clause to be properly formulated in Committee.
  SIR J. FERGUSSONsaid he hoped that nothing would be done to injure the important interests of municipalities owning extensive tramways.
  SIR EDWARD STRACHEYsaid he warned the House to be very careful before agreeing to the compromise. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Berwick was rather disposed to give too many assurances to the hon. Member for Halifax and other opponents. The House ought not to be bound by any arrangement made outside, so that when the Bill had passed through Committee it might be revised by the House entirely in the interests of the travelling public and of the traders and agriculturists whose goods they wished to see transported from agricultural districts. The hon. Member for North-East Durham seemed to object to a railway company having a tramway running along a road, but he hoped no compromise would be made that would prevent a railway company from doing anything of that sort. In many cases such a power would be of the greatest advantage, and he only regretted that railway companies were too little inclined to offer such facilities. Such tramways would have the additional merit of preventing the destruction which was caused to the roads at present by heavy motor traffic. The House ought to be zealous to see that the public interests were protected and not interfered with in any way, whatever compromise might be arrived at outside the House. He desired to say no more at the present stage, except to assure his right hon. friend who was acting for the railway directors on this occasion, that anything he did in the Committee upstairs to give greater facilities for bringing agricultural produce into the great centres of population would receive the support of all agricultural Members like himself.
  MR. LLOYD WHARTONsaid that under this Bill they were granting a motor omnibus which would run a horse-shoe journey through a district where there was not a light railway, and where they had asked the railway company to put down a light railway, which had been refused because there was no possibility of it being made to pay. This motor omnibus would run through several villages, and if this Instruction were passed it would deprive those villages of the benefits of this motor omnibus service. Such a course would be absolutely injurious to the interests of the poor people in those districts. This railway company enjoyed a large monopoly, and they were anxious to provide for the requirements of those districts, where they could do, it at little or no profit. He assured the House that the money earned by this company was hardly in excess of the expenses, but what they were now proposing gave satisfaction to the inhabitants of the districts concerned, and provided them with means of locomotion which they would not otherwise have. There were many other districts in which this railway company could carry out a similar policy with great advantage to the population, and he hoped that after the assurance which had been given the House would agree to read the Bill a second time.
  MR. SCOTT-MONTAGUsaid that, as the representative of an agricultural constituency and a motorist, he was anxious to see no hindrances placed upon facilities for motor omnibus travelling. It was very desirable that the House of Commons should not interfere with the development of the cheapest and most convenient form of locomotion.
  SIR EDWARD GREYsaid that he could not extend the undertaking he had given, nor could he withdraw from it. The hon. Member for Halifax was perfectly free to raise further points in Committee.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

  MIDLAND RAILWAY BILL [By ORDER.]
  Read a second time, and committed.
  MR. WHITLEYsaid the Instruction he had placed on the Paper in regard to this Bill referred to the same matter as his proposal in reference to the previous Bill. If he could get a similar assurance from the promoters of this Bill he would not press his Motion. Meanwhile he begged to move.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That it be an Instruction to the Committee to whom the Bill is referred that they limit the provisions of Clause 22 to omnibuses, coaches, cars, and other road vehicles conveying persons, luggage, parcels, and goods to and from the company's railway stations."—(Mr. Whitiey.)
  SIR CHARLES RENSHAWsaid there was no direct representative of the Midland Railway Company present, but he would suggest to the hon. Member for Halifax that he should allow the Bill to go forward on the same understanding as had been given in the case of the former Bill, namely, that an opportunity should be given of discussing the question.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

  NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY (STEAM VESSELS) BILL (By ORDER).
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
  *SIR WILLIAM TOMLINSONdesired to call attention to the extensive powers sought by this Bill to run steamers between Hull and many ports, extending as far as Stockholm, and he considered so great an extension of the powers generally granted to railway companies deserved examination, and he proposed, in order to invite attention to the subject, to move that the Bill be read a second time that day six months. He did not bring this Motion forward in
  746
  any hostile spirit, and he did not intend, to press it to a division. This development of the functions of railway companies greatly increased their functions and was one of very considerable importance to the trading interests of the country. It was no new thing for railway companies to ask for powers to run lines of steamships between certain points, but whilst originally these powers were limited to making connecting links between different railway systems on opposite sides of the water, during the last few years company after company had enlarged their system of water communication to an extent never previously contemplated. There was this difference between the grant by Parliament to railway companies of powers to construct railways and to run steamships to distant parts, that in the former case they were under an obligation to carry out the undertaking, whilst in the latter it was quite optional with them whether they acted upon the powers given them, and he desired to urge that the time had come when there ought to be some kind of public inquiry into the powers railway companies were acquiring under Bills of this description, and the mode in which and the limits and conditions under which such powers should be exercised. It was true that the powers proposed to be granted by this Bill were analogous to those granted to the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Company last year, and also to some acquired by other railway companies previously, and it was I obvious that keen competition might be occasioned in which the railway companies might unintentionally place the merchandise imported from foreign countries in a more favourable position: than the products of this country. He thought it was worthy of consideration whether some precautions should not be taken to prevent such a state of things arising, and that the time had now arrived when it would be wise for the Board of Trade to institute some kind of inquiry by a Committee, or Commission or otherwise. He therefore begged to move.
  Amendment proposed—
  "To leave out the word 'now,' and at the end of the Question to add the words ' upon this day six months.'"—(Sir William Tomlinson.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
  SIR EDWARD GREYsaid that all the Bill asked for were the identical powers which were given by Parliament last year to the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Company.
  MR. CHARLES MCARTHURthought the time had come for the Board of Trade to direct an inquiry into the whole policy of these railway companies in acting as sea carriers, lie desired to support the Motion which had been made by the hon. Baronet the Member for Preston. If they granted these powers to one railway they could not refuse them to another company. Such powers were very much open to abuse. What they had to recollect was that in the case of railway companies who were shipowners it was to their own interest to carry goods by sea at nominal rates in order that they might carry them upon their own railway. This would be unfair to British manufacturers and traders, who were thus placed at a disadvantage with their foreign competitors. Besides this it was unfair to particular ports, and the port of Liverpool had suffered very much in this respect in the past. It was unfair to the shipowner, because he was subjected to unfair competition from the railway companies, who would carry goods at lower prices simply to act as feeders to their own lines. He thought the Board of Trade might direct an inquiry to be made into the whole of the conditions under which these railway companies were acting. Such safeguards ought to be laid down as would prevent these great powers being exercised in a manner which inflicted injury upon other industries.
  Question put, and agreed to
  Main Question put, and agreed to. Bill read a second time, and committed.

  GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY (ADDI TIONAL POWERS) BILL (By ORDER.)
  Read a second time, and committed.

  IRISH LAND ACT, 1903.
  MR. FFRENCHsaid he desired to move the Resolution that stood in his name. It covered a wide area and he should leave to his hon. friends the task of dealing with several matters bounded by this Resolution, as their constituents felt the breakdown of the Land Purchase Act of 1903 much more keenly, perhaps, than his, as fully one-half of the latter purchased under previous Acts. He felt great pleasure in proposing this Resolution for two reasons, first, because he was a tenant farmer himself; and secondly, because he was one of the Members for the County Wexford, a county that had purchased more land than any other county in Ireland. He had seen for himself the benefits which land purchase had conferred on the community there, and he sincerely hoped that these benefits would be extended to the whole of the tenantry of Ireland in the immediate future.
  When the Land Purchase Act of 1903 was passing through the House, it seemed under the guardianship of the angel of peace. They could almost hear the fluttering of his wings. Ireland at last was to have peace and prosperity. The landlord would have his net income on the basis of second-term rents, and the tenant would have an adequate reduction, fully sufficient to enable him to compete with the foreigner in the agricultural markets. But, as soon as the administration of the Act commenced in Ireland the trouble began. The insatiable greed of the landlords showed itself. They were not satisfied with their net incomes on the basis of second-term rents, but in all probability they would have to put up I with much less if the restrictions on the importation of foreign store cattle were removed. Now, the state of things in his own county was, he supposed, a sample of what was going on all over Ireland. Twenty years ago tenants in his district bought out their holdings under the Ashbourne Act at eighteen years purchase. Their rents had been fixed in the Land Commission Court, and they had got 20 per cent reduction. They got a further reduction of 28 per cent, by purchase. They were entitled to decadal reductions as well, and he

  749
  dared say they were now paying only about one-third of the old rate. Contrast that with the position of tenant buying under the Land Act of 1903, and giving twenty-six or twenty-seven years purchase without decadal reductions. Those were monstrous prices, considering that in England the price and value of land had both gone down, and even in Ireland, in the Land Judge's Court, the price of well secured head rents was not more than twenty or twenty-three years purchase.
  Now, in his humble opinion, the Land Purchase Act of 1903, or rather what was known as the zones, was responsible for these exorbitant prices which, if they went on, would plunge their country in bankruptcy. On every estate there were arrears of rent. Many of these poor tenant farmers were living from hand to mouth, and severely pressed even at that, as the landlords well knew. The arrears and the zones were used as a leverage to extort a high price from the unfortunate tenant. Sooner than face eviction, and impelled by anxiety to be rid of the incubus of landlordism, he consented to the landlord's terms. The bargain was made within the zones, and the purchase money was advanced whether the land was security for it or not. It was to the interest of the landlords to have sales within the zones, and when they had forced their tenants to agree to big prices, which they never expected the Land Commission would sanction, they had adopted the simple plan of making them sign judicial agreements, so that the tenants would come within the zones and inspection would be done away with. It was said that inspection would retard sales, but this was not the case. An inspector had to come down to see if the maps were all right, and he might as well inspect the holding for its value as well as for its boundary. The additional delay would be nothing to speak of, and might secure fair play for both landlord and tenant. At present the result of the zone system was to compel the tenant to pay six or seven years purchase more for the land than its value. There was one thing the British Government could not do in Ireland. The British Government, with all its power, with its Army and its Navy, was,
  750
  incapable of destroying the insatiable I greed of Irish landlords, but they could destroy the zones by which extortionate prices were wrung from the Irish tenants The Land Purchase Act of 1903 was very little better than a myth. Agreement were lodged up to the 28th of February last to the amount of about £17,000,000, but only £3,500,000 or £4,000,000 had been distributed to claimants on estates sold. They were told that the land of Ireland would be sold in twelve years, but at the present rate of progress it would take over thirty years. An Act of Parliament had been passed which would cost £112,000,000 to carry it out, and it was passed because every Member in that House believed the Irish land question must be settled, and settled quickly. What was the use in passing an Act of this kind if they did not provide money to finance it? If they wanted progress and justice as well, abolish the zones and finance the Act.
  Another portion of the Act that had proved an abject failure was that relating to the restoration of the evicted tenants and the distribution of grass lands. They were led to believe that the evicted tenants would be restored to their homes, that the planters would be bought out, and in cases, where the planters would not sell, that the evicted tenants would be provided with homes elsewhere. But, although 4,550 applications were made on behalf of the evicted tenants, only 137 had been restored to their homes. The Coogreuny tenants, North Wexford, were amongst the fortunate ones, but the Waluce tenants were still out in the cold. On this estate there were about 800 acres of untenanted land. The Estates Commissioners, or some persons for them, had been over the land and promised the tenants that they would get back to their homes. He believed they had been over the land a second time and made a second promise, and yet there was no sign of the tenants being put back. The season for putting in the crops was now upon them, and if they did not get possession of the land immediately it would be of little use to them for another year. In South Wexford, his constituency, the evicted tenants, were the Boxwell tenants, the Coolroe tenants, and some isolated cases. The

  751
  Boxwell tenants and the Coolroe tenants had applied to their landlords to be allowed to purchase their farms, but both these gentlemen were standing out for excessive prices. He had heard hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite putting forward the theory that the evicted tenants would have been quietly paying their rents up to this day but for some terrible agitator like himself coming round and inducing them to rebel against their landlords and abandon their homes. No more preposterous theory ever entered the mind of man. The Irish farmer loved his home. His heart was in it, and he clung to it with a tenacity never understood on this side of the water; and the reason of this was that the house he lived in, the other houses on his farm, and all the improvements, were the work of himself or his predecessors in title. Nothing could induce him to desert that home except force, and as the Government supplied the force, the Government was in justice bound not only to reinstate him in his home, but to compensate him for all losses, because it evicted him for non-payment of an impossible rent.
  In the cases he had referred to, no agitator or Member of Parliament went near the tenants, but they, like other evicted tenants, felt themselves becoming poorer and poorer owing to circumstances over which they had no control. They asked for reductions in their rents. They were refused. Then combinations were formed on the estates to try and obtain justice from their landlords, and then the landlords called out their reserves, which were the forces of the Crown, and evicted the tenants. The Boxwell tenants were paying 30s. an acre. He knew something about land. He had lived by it for thirty-five years, and he would venture to say that this land was not worth half the rent that the tenants were paying for it. Some of it was worth very much less, because it used to be flooded by the tide. The tenants built an embankment or sea-wall to keep out the tide. This embankment got out of repair and the land was flooded, and although the landlord persisted in rack-renting the tenants he refused to give any help to repair the embankment. The tenants asked for 6s. in the £ reduction and the landlord's reply
  752
  was eviction. And now he would sell to the tenants at twenty-seven and a-half years purchase of the old rent. The Coolroe tenants had been just as badly treated, if not worse. He would respectfully ask the right hon. Gentleman the new Chief Secretary for Ireland how could such landlords be dealt with except by compulsion?
  All agreed that the Irish land question must be settled, and yet the receivers and Land Commissioners were blocking sales and the Government never said och hone, or tried to mend matters. There were about a dozen firms of receivers making deals with landlords, negotiating fees. As a rule they demanded 5 per cent, for carrying out sales, that was to say, on a hundred millions of money those gentlemen netted five millions. The receivers were opposed to sales and were determined not to allow them if they could help it. Why should they part with the estates? Few people would part with their means of living. A man collecting £10,000 for which he got 5 per cent, for taking it from the tenant and handing it over to the landlord had an easy job and did not like to lose it. The Land Commissioners were also opposed to sales. They had fat salaries and they did not want to lose them; consequently, they sold as little land as they could. An ordinary estate of, say, forty tenants, worth £10,000, could be sold by an auctioneer and solicitor in a month or six weeks. Why should it take twelve months or more in the Land Commission? Because, of course, the Land Commission wanted to make the job hold out. It was time to put an end to this state of things by some drastic measure. The land was not being sold, the evicted tenants were not being restored, except at a snail's pace, and the Congested Districts Board was practically idle. The only measure that could meet this chronic state of things was compulsion. Parliament' passed an Act and guaranteed about £112,000,000 to carry it out. The object of the Act was to make the tenant the owner. Then why not make him the owner? Pass a Bill of two or three sections giving him a vesting order that he was the owner. Fix the price, having regard to the circumstances of the land, the prices of agricultural products and

  753
  competition in agriculture. Or they could adopt the method of giving the landlord his net income on the basis of second-term rents. Then lodge the money in the hands of the public trustee under the Land Act of 1903 and let the landlord prove his title. He would venture to say, if this were done, the land of Ireland would be sold in three or four years. Likely enough the Chancellor of the Exchequer would say he could not finance such a scheme. But why not? They spent some £250,000,000 in the Transvaal; they had spent millions in Somaliland. And this all for war—killing people and grabbing their land. Would it not be better to spend a few millions in making peace with the Irish people, who would pay every penny of it back, whilst the money they spent in war was gone for ever. He begged to move.
  MR. KILBRIDEin seconding the Motion, said it was not brought forward for the purpose of attacking the Estates Commissioners. The reason for that must be obvious to the Government. He and his friends were not in a position on the present occasion to say whether the Estates Commissioners were culpable or not. They had little or no information on which to form an opinion as to whether the Estates Commissioners, in the exercise of their administrative duties, had done the best they could to put in force the provisions of the Land Act of 1903, or whether they deserved censure. Although repeated assurances had been given that periodic Reports would be presented to the House in regard to the transactions of the Land Commissioners, they were to-day groping in the dark. All the information supplied to them was as to the number of tenants whose purchases had been sanctioned, the amount of money that had been advanced, and the number of years purchase paid. They did not know what the Estates Commissioners had done in the way of reinstating the evicted tenants or repatriating to the grass lands of Connaught the people driven off in former times.
  The Motion alleged that the failure of the Land Act was largely due to the inflation of prices by the system
  754
  of zones set up by that Act for the first time, and also that it had done little or nothing to relieve the congestion in the West and to distribute the grass lands in Connaught. They were told in 1903 that two of the main purposes of the Bill then before the House were to increase the uneconomic holdings in order to make them economic, and to reinstate the evicted tenants. The figures supplied the other day as to the working of the Land Act showed that advances amounting in all to £3,567,649 had been sanctioned by the Estates Commissioners; that the amount Con-naught had got was £299,781, or something like 8 per cent, of the total. The I province of Leinster, which, as everybody knew, was the richest province in Ireland as far as the natural quality of the land was concerned, had absorbed £2,028,548, and county Kildare had absorbed £862,068, or almost four times as much as the whole of the province of Connaught. [An HON. MEMBER: The Duke of Leinster.] He was not going to say anything against the Duke of Leinster. If the tenants were satisfied to give the Duke exorbitant prices he did not see that it lay with him or anybody else to prevent them from doing so. But he said that the Duke of Leinster's estate afforded the best illustration of how the Irish ratepayers were being robbed under the Land Act of 1903.
  He would take the case of the rental on the Duke's estate of £125 previous to the passing of the Land Act of 1881. Notwithstanding the fact that he owned that estate in the seventies, the Duke, as they must cheerfully acknowledge, allowed the tenants to break the leases and go into the Land Court. From that day until now he and his family had shown by their action that they had some regard for the interest of their tenants. After the passing of the Land Act of 1881, the Duke of Leinster anticipated what this House was compelled to do by the Plan of Campaign in 1887. If other landlords had followed the example of the Duke of Leinster much trouble would have been saved to the people of Ireland and to the. British Government. In 1881 the Duke said to his tenants, "You can either go into Court or agree to a valuation." It was mutually agreed to appoint a valuer, and the

  755
  tenants got a 20 per cent, reduction. Two estates were sold by the late Duke of Leirister immediately after the passing of the Ashbourne Act at eighteen years purchase on the judicial rent. The rack-rent of £125 was reduced by consent to £100, so that the land, which was afterwards sold at eighteen years purchase realised £1,800, which, ta 4 per cent, amounted to an annuity of £72. On that occasion the manors of Maynooth and Castledermot were not sold and the reason was this. In 1881 the Duke of Leinster's tenants there asked for a reduction of rent commensurate with the fall in prices of cattle and sheep and the general depression in agriculural values, and he informed them that he was unable to give it because there was a mortgage of over £250,000 on the estates. When the estates were eventually sold they brought £343,000, and were in that way relieved of the mortgages. When the Act of 1887 first came into operation, and until the day the Duke of Leinster's trustees sold, a reduction of 12½ per cent, was allowed. Therefore it came to this, that the land which, before 1881, was rack-rented at £125, which was reduced in 1881 to £100, and which was again reduced under the Land Act of 1887 by a further 12½ per cent, to £87 10s., was sold under the Act of 1903 at twenty-five years purchase for £2,187 10s., while similar lands were sold under the Act of 1887 for £1,800. This was what had occurred under the Act of 1903, which they were told was to be the salvation of Ireland. He wished the House to remember that under the Ashbourne Act there was no bonus. He was told sometimes that the land did not secure the purchase money; but before ever the British Treasury would go to the land to realise their security or begin a campaign of eviction against the purchasers under the Act of 1903, the first thing they would do would be to come down on the Irish Development Fund, by which they would rob, not the farmers who had purchased the land, but the general body of ratepayers of Ireland.
  Now, what had caused the inflation in the price of land in Ireland? While the Act of 1903 was before the House hon. Members were given to
  756
  understand that the cause which was retarding the sale of land was that seventeen or eighteen years purchase were not sufficient when invested to give the landlord his net income, or what he might be I supposed to consider his net income ought to be. For that reason the bonus of £12,000,000 was given to the Irish landlords, to be used as a bridge which would enable them to sell at the then current number of years purchase. Again, they were told that the Land Act, of 1903 was not altogether intended for the benefit of the landlord, but that the tenant farmers might legitimately expect some advantage corresponding to the £12,000,000 of bonus which the landlords were getting. But what had happened? The tenant farmers of Ireland had not got that advantage; they had not received the reduction of the annuity I charge from 4 per cent, to 3¼ per cent. In fact, they had been swindled out of that reduction. It was the reduction from 4 per cent, to 3¼ per cent. which compelled the Treasury to extend the time of repayment under the Ashbourne Act, to forty-two years under the Act of 1903. Then, they were told that the essence of the Land Act of 1903 was voluntary sale and purchase. He agreed; but what was the use of telling him that this was a voluntary measure, that he need not purchase if he did not wish to do so, and that he could still continue a tenant farmer and could bring his landlord into Court and have a fair rent fixed. In order to force the Irish tenant farmer into a bargain with his landlord, which he knew was not a fair bargain, and to give the landlord five, six, or seven years purchase more than under the Ashbourne Act, the landlord used the question of arrears and the hanging gale. He would give the House a few instances which would prove to the hilt that the landlords were making use of the poverty of the tenants to extract from them a rent far in excess of what the land was worth, and what was obtained, under Government sanction, under the Ashbourne Act.
  In King's County there was an estate owned by Colonel Williams. The land agent on that estate, Mr. Coutts, was for fifteen or sixteen years always satisfied to receive from the tenants one year's rent every twelve months; and did not

  757
  press for any arrears due previous to the time he became agent. Unfortunately for the tenants that gentleman resigned his position and went abroad. A Mr. Fowler from Kerry became agent instead. This estate was offered to be sold six years ago for eighteen years purchase under the Balfour Act; but since Mr. Fowler became agent he was proceeding against the tenants for arrears of rent due during the famine time, and for arrears of hanging gale due fifty years ago. He did not allege for a moment that the owner of the estate, Colonel Williams, had instigated those proceedings; but it was peculiar that this property, which was offered for sale six years ago at eighteen years purchase, which the tenants would not consent to pay because it was too high, was now considered by the new agent to be worth twenty-six years purchase. The reason was that the agent desired to drive the tenants into an improvident bargain. Every hon. Member who was acquainted with the agricultural value of land knew that during the last ten or fifteen years, instead of the agricultural value of land having increased by six or seven years purchase, it had decreased by six or seven years purchase. A tenant in county Clare, named Down, had his rent fixed in 1881 at £14 under the Ashbourne Act. That tenant went into Court and asked to have a second-term rent fixed; but the Commissioner, Mr. Esmonde, who knew nothing whatever of the land in county Clare or its climatic conditions, confirmed the rent at £14, the same as in 1881. He would ask the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary if he was getting, as a landlord, the same rent for agricultural land in. 1904 as he was in 1881? There was another extraordinary case. A Miss Gibson went into Court in 1888 and had a rent fixed at £90, but the landlord had to contribute half the rates and taxes, which brought the rent down to £75; but Mr. Esmonde fixed the second-term rent of the same farm at £84 7s. 6d. Deliberately, and with full knowledge, he charged Mr. Esmonde, and lay Commissioners like him, with being in a conspiracy with the landlords to compel the tenants to purchase at any price. It was part and parcel of the attempt made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dover in the Bill he introduced
  758
  in the House in 1902 to provide that any tenant who refused to purchase could not get a fair rent fixed. He understood that Mr. Esmonde alleged that one factor in calculating Miss Gibson's second-term rent at £84 was the proximity of the farm to the pier at Carrigaholt. Now, that pier was built long before the Act of 1881 was passed and was only used by fishermen. He did not believe that a single, ton of agricultural produce had been landed or exported from that pier ever since it was built. He maintained that the Act of 1903 had not succeeded in curing the congestion of the population in certain districts of Ireland, and that the promises made to the Irish tenant farmers as to the results of the Act had all been falsified.
  The right hon. Member for Dover told them that one of the main intentions of the Act was to enable the uneconomic holdings of Ireland to become economic holdings, and to bring the people into a position which would give them a chance of gaining a decent living. The hon. Member for South Antrim talked the other day about the immorality of the United Irish Land League. He was proud to be a member of that League, which was the descendant of the old Land League; and it was the Land League which made the landlords of Ireland first sit up, and compelled the Government to pass its many Land Acts. It would be the United Irish Land League which would finally settle the land question in Ireland. There was an estate in the West of Ireland which was in Judge Ross's Court. A requisition was presented by the Estates Commissioners for the sale of that estate a considerable time ago, but Judge Ross made no answer to the requisition and said publicly in his Court that he would not sell because there was boycotting in the neighbourhood—the boycotting taking the form of throwing down several hundred yards of a boundary wall. He could say to the Chief Secretary and the Attorney-General for Ireland that he was not there to apologise for that action, but to tell the House the cause of it. One of the main provisions of the Act of 1903 was to increase the size of uneconomic holdings on estates where there were untenanted lands. Now, on the estate to which he referred

  759
  there were seventeen tenants, the valuation of whose holdings ranged from 10s. up to £5 per annum. Could it be said that these were economic holdings? Why did Judge Ross refuse to sell the estate to the Estates Commissioners? He would tell the House why. In that particular neighbourhood there lived an informer, a common spy, who supplied the hon. Member for South Antrim with some of his bogus facts; in that neighbourhood there lived Lord Ashtown—
  MR. CHARLES CRAIG: What facts are bogus? [Cries from the IRISH Benches: Sit down.] I rise to a point of order. The hon. Member has accused me of have given information to this House of a bogus nature. I submit that that statement should be withdrawn
  *MR. SPEAKER: No; what was said was that someone had furnished the hon. Member with information of a bogus nature. [An IRISH MEMBER: You've got your answer.]
  MR. KILBRIDEsaid that some of the bogus information supplied to the hon. Member opposite was supplied by Lord Ashtown With regard to the estate of William Thomas Gallaway, deceased, they were not compelled to sell the estate under the 40th section because it was not a bankrupt estate, but if it was the intention of the framers of the Act that it should work, surely in regard to a property like this they were not going to allow Lord Ashtown to frustrate the intention of Parliament, and allow him to buy an estate over the heads of the tenants. When he heard indignant denunciations of the United Irish League for what they had done in cases of this kind he was reminded of the words used by the Leader of the House on a memorable occasion when he said, "Human endurance had its limits." He agreed that there were limits to human endurance, especially when an Act of Parliament, passed to relieve a most abominable state of affairs which was a disgrace to
  760
  the Government of the country, was being frustrated in this way. It was disgraceful that these poor people who had to live in hovels should be prevented from getting what Parliament intended they should have by the action of a wealthy Lord.
  The question of the evicted tenants had been alluded to. So far only £3,500 had been expended out of the £250,000 Irish money apportioned for the reinstatement of evicted persons. There was an extraordinary difference of procedure when it was a question of repatriating Irishmen and resettling the Boers. When they wanted to repatriate Irishmen £3,500 was considered sufficient, but £3,000,000 was voted by the House to repatriate the Boers, and this was done for men who had been up in arms against this country. That was a magnificent performance. Until the question of the evicted tenants was settled he assured the right hon. Gentleman that the Irish land question could not be settled. He hoped the Chief Secretary or the Attorney-General would be able to tell them something about the public trustee. What was he doing and what had he done? Was it a fact that the trustees of the Leinster property had invested the proceeds of the sale of that estate at £4 1s. per cent.? That took away altogether the landlord's argument that he must get twenty-five years purchase.
  A case had been brought before the Chief Secretary for Ireland as to how the zone system had inflated the price of land. There was the case of the Blake Foster Estate which was partly in the county of Clare and partly in the county of Galway. This estate was offered for sale by the late proprietor, and it was agreed that £6,000 should be the price. When the inspector, on behalf of the Treasury, went to ascertain whether there was sufficient security for the advance, he reported that there was not, and Mr. Wrench, who was then a Land Commissioner, made a minute that it was valued only for a single pound of advance. The property was transferred to the mortgagees, a Scotch Insurance Company. They employed in the West of Ireland a very astute man, and

  761
  he found that five or six years arrears of rent were due. The first thing he did was to offer to relieve the tenants of a certain amount of those arrears if they would sign agreements fixing second-term rents, and they signed the agreements. This agent's name was Mr. Holmes, and he brought those agreements to the Land Commission offices and said, "Here are a number of fair-rent agreements." There was no inquiry at all, and the whole thing went through. These agreements were registered as second-term rents and Mr. Holmes went back to the tenants and sold the land to them at twenty-four or twenty-five years purchase. Having brought those tenants within the zones Mr. Holmes obtained an advance of £9,000 under this beneficent Act of 1903 for an estate which, under the previous Purchase Acts, a Government inspector had declared was not security for £6,000, and which Mr. Wrench had stated was not security for a single sovereign. Was it any wonder that they complained? It had been laid down that if property was bought within the zones the Estates Commissioners had no option. The House had often heard of the evictions on the Sneem Warden Estate. This was originally in the hands of the Elands, but, unfortunately, they were obliged to sell, and it was sold in the Encumbered Estates Court at eleven years purchase to a Yorkshireman, who increased the rents very considerably. This Yorkshireman had recently sold this estate under the Land Act of 1903, and he had succeeded in getting agreements signed by insolvent tenants, who had purchased at twenty-four years purchase, and he was going to make a very nice thing out of it. The House should also remember that this gentleman got a nice little matter of
  762
  12 per cent, bonus. An agent would agree with a tenant at twenty years purchase at a rental of £20, making the amount £400. An agreement was made between the landlord and tenant at twenty-five years purchase at a rental of £20 and that made the amount £500. Meantime the landlord went to the tenant and gave him £100, and why? Because he would get it all back from the Estates Commissioners as well as the 12 per cent, bonus.
  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. ATKINSON, Londonderry, N.): I do not think that is an honest transaction on the part of either party. Is the hon. Member referring to a case that has actually occurred, because there is power to quash such a transaction
  MR. KILBRIDEsaid he expected that the right hon. Gentleman would give that answer. He believed it was a fraud on the part of both, but why did the tenant do it? The cheapness of the money was the inducement to the tenant to be a party to the fraud, and the inducement to the landlord was the 12 per cent. He was not talking in his hat. He did not wish to give the name of the party, but if this practice continued he should not hesitate to furnish the Attorney-General with all the particulars, and request him to do what his colleague did in the Whitaker Wright case. A friend of his sold an estate not within the zones it sixteen years purchase. It was bad and, but it was as good as the land sold before at sixteen years purchase. Before he sold it he did not get the tenants to sign second-term judicial leases in order to bring them within the zones

  763
  which would have avoided inspection. In the case of one of these tenants the total amount of the purchase money came to £47 at sixteen years purchase. An inspector was sent down and he reported that it was only security for £36. Upon an estate close by owned by an avaricious landlord the tenants were compelled to sign second-term leases and he succeeded in getting twenty-five years purchase, or more than double what similar land had been valued at by the inspector. This Bill was intended to settle the land question. It was intended to relieve the congested and poverty-stricken parts of Ireland, and restore the wounded soldiers of the land war to the irholdings, but, unless a new leaf were turned in the administration of the Land Act of 1903, the present Chief Secretary would retire from his office with the same feelings as his predecessor.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House is of opinion that the system of limits within which the Estates Commissioners are obliged to advance the prices of farms in Ireland without inquiring as to the sufficiency of the security has had an effect disastrous to the interests of the tenant farmers and the general ratepayers of Ireland; and that the Land Act of 1903 has utterly failed to effect one of its main objects in remedying the congestion of the population in certain districts of Ireland and providing the people with economic holdings; and that this failure can only be remedied by the grant of compulsory powers to the Estates Commissioners and the Congested Districts Board for the purchase of estates declared by them to be congested estates, and of untenanted lands necessary for the relief of congestion."— (Mr. Ffrench.)
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WALTER LONG,): It is a little difficult in any circumstances, to deal with this question as it has been put before the House to-night, but it is especially difficult when the House realises that in the two speeches which have been made the case has been so fully dealt with, and if I may say so, with a wealth of detail which makes it almost impossible for the representative of the Government to reply upon the case as stated. Let me turn to the general issue.
  Whatever differences of opinion there may be now as to the merits of the Act of 1903, there is no difference as to the object with which that Act was passed and the effects which it was hoped the Act would produce. The speeches to-which the House has listened do not suggest that those effects are within reasonable distance of attainment yet. The object of the mover of this Resolution is to show that the operations under the Act have been attended by inflated prices to the owners of the land. But what led to the passing of this Act? What was the conclusion to which Parliament was brought face to face by facts to which it could not shut its eyes? The real difficulty in connection with previous Purchase Acts was that under them only those landlords sold who could afford to accept the prices of the tenants—who had other resources, in fact Those who had not other resources found it difficult to bring the land into the market.
  It is perfectly true that the landlords who came in in those early sales were those who could afford to part with their land, who sold because they found the Act advantageous, and who had other reserves. But only the very

  765
  fringe of the Irish land question had been touched. You wanted to found a system by which it would be made worth the while of the owners of land who had not other reserves, who had only a very small margin, if any, to sell their land; and you developed this scheme of voluntary purchase, and induced the British taxpayer not only to find £100,000,000 for the purposes of the loan, but also to add £12,000,000 by way of bonus, to make it possible for many of the smaller landlords to sell. They are the very men you want to buy out, because their opportunities for providing for themselves are small, and their opportunities of doing justice to their tenants are almost nil. This Act for the first time offers these facilities to the owners of that particular class of land, and how, in the name of justice, can you describe it as a failure when it has been in operation for less than two years? What, after all, have been its results? Already £20,000,000 have been applied for—representing one-fifth of the agricultural holdings in Ireland. It is perfectly true that only a small percentage of those have been dealt with. But why? Are the arguments which have been adduced, the cases which have been cited, the indictments which have been made—are they the reasons why the Land Act of 1903 has not made more rapid progress? Everybody knows that the real difficulty is not that here and there prices have varied, or that here and there landlords have got enough for their land to enable them to live in decency for the rest of their days; the real difficulty is the financial difficulty to which reference was made last night. I cannot say what opportunities I may have, or how far I may be able to take advantage of those opportunities, of
  766
  doing something to facilitate the working of the Act, but I believe that the financial difficulty is the paramount difficulty, and that if hon. Members opposite wish to do anything to solve the land problem they will not help the Irish Government by throwing doubt on the Act which has had almost unparalleled success.
  MR. FLAVIN (Kerry, N.)The landlords cheer that.
  MR. WALTER LONG: I am very glad they do. The Act was devised and carried for the purpose of transferring the land from the landlords to the tenants, and if its operations so far as they have gone are cheered by the landlords' representatives, I think that any fair-minded man will not say that that is no condemnation of the Act.
  MR. FLAVIN: I have no objection to the land being sold if it is sold at a fair price.
  MR. WALTER LONG: I think there has been in this debate, as there is in the interruption of the hon. Member, a tendency to judge this Act by one test and one alone, viz., that of the price paid for the land. Surely those who represent the tenants will admit that there is another test which may with equal fairness be applied. Under the Act the average purchase price has been 22.9 years purchase. But what have been the advantages to the tenant? I do not admit that that is an excessive price, nor do I deny that there have been variations. Under the principle of voluntary purchase there must be variations, and I believe that the average price is a fair price. But the tenant has directly received the

  767
  benefit of a reduction on the annual payment representing his rental of 25·9 per cent. That is application has already been made in the Courts for one-fifth of the land in Ireland, the average price paid to the owners of the land represents twenty-two and a-half years purchase, and the reduction to the tenants in their anual payment is equal to over 25 per cent. Can it be contended by any fair-minded man that that is a record which spells failure for the Act?
  The mover of the Resolution submitted that the zone system was one of the causes of the failure of the Act. But the zone system is the very essence of the Act. We have been told that tenants have been practically coerced into giving unfair prices for the land. If that is so, there is a provision in the Act which I do not say would have made that impossible, but of which, at all events, the tenants might have availed themselves. Such an argument can always be fortified by individual cases. The hon. Member for South Kildare appealed to me as an English landowner as to what my experience was. I venture to say that if the sales of agricultural land in England for the last ten years are investigated, it will be found that there have been exactly the same variations as are found in Ireland. The hon. Member instanced the case of a farm sold for so many years purchase, and of another farm of the same character which fetched a very much higher price. But that is the commonest experience of everyone connected with land purchase in this country.
  MR. KILBRIDEsaid that his point was that in the case of the farm which was sold for sixteen years purchase without the zones, the inspector from the Land
  768
  Commission refused to certify that it was security for the advance, whereas in the case of the farm of a similar character sold within the zones for twenty-five years purchase without inspection, the Estates Commissioners advanced the money.
  MR. WALTER LONG: It is impossible to go into every individual case without having the full particulars before one. I was not dealing with the individual case; I was replying to the general charge. The hon. Member challenged me, as one acquainted with agricultural affairs in England, to say whether there had been any instances within the last ten years in England which could be compared with the cases be cited, and I say that the hon. Member may take any decade he pleases, and he will find that, whether the general value has been rising or falling, there have been exactly the same variations of prices. Those variations are due to a multitude of causes of which it is impossible to judge by a bare statement of a partisan on one side or the other.
  This Act must be judged, not by the comparatively trifling instances which have been cited, but on the broad general facts which can be put forward in its support. Subject only to the fact that the originator of this Act was a colleague of my own, and that to that extent I had an interest in it. I bring to its examination as the head of the Irish Executive for the time being a perfectly open and impartial mind, and I do not hesitate to say that the more I examine into its operation, and the more I realise what its work and actual effects have been, the more I marvel at the success which has attended it. Why is it indicted to-night? By what justification is it held to be a

  769
  failure because the landlords have obtained a fair price? Everybody who does not wish the Act to operate to the destruction of the landlords must realise that if it had not worked fairly to the landlords the Act would have been a failure, because it would have come to an end. The hon. Member says the Act is a failure because it is a voluntary Act. Why is it based upon voluntary purchase? Because you have never yet been able to invent a system other than that for Ireland, or for any other country, which was likely to be successful in the two directions in which alone success can be secured, viz., those of inducing the landlords to sell, and of making it worth the tenants' while to buy. Are you going to do that by compulsory purchase? Where has it yet been found that compulsory purchase leads to economical treatment and cheap sales? During the short time I was in Ireland I made it my business to inquire on this point of some gentlemen acquainted with the question.
  AN HON. MEMBER: Landlords!
  MR. WALTER LONG: No, they were not landlords.
  AN HON. MEMBER: Then they were in Dublin Castle.
  MR. WALTER LONG: No, they were not. They happened to be on board the steamer.
  AN HON. MEMBER: In a storm!
  MR. WALTER LONG: No, the storm was on the way to Ireland; the return journey was quite calm. I asked a gentleman of considerable experience
  770
  what he thought of compulsion—whether he thought it facilitated the cheap buying of land; and he confirmed what, I believe, is the experience of everybody who has had anything to do with the sale of land; viz., that compulsory powers lead to a much more expensive system. ["Name."] It is unnecessary that I should give the name. Does anybody believe that by compulsion you get land more cheaply or more easily than by voluntary arrangement?
  MR. EDWARD MITCHELLasked what the right hon. Gentleman proposed to do with landlords who refused to sell at any price.
  MR. WALTER LONG: If landlords will not sell at any price and you have not compulsory powers, it is obvious that you cannot get their land. But if you have compulsory powers there is this difficulty. If you have compulsory powers to exercise against recalcitrant landlords, what are you going to do to all the landlords who now come in and sell on fair terms? If you are to use your compulsory powers only upon one set of landlords, upon what terms are you going to exercise them? The question of the hon. Member presupposes that a majority of the landlords will sell voluntarily. Therefore, you are to exercise compulsion against the minority. But upon what system or basis? Are you going to compel them to sell on terms which hon. Members have denounced tonight as extravagant? What, after all, is the best inducement? There is a great deal in what has been said about that part of Ireland in which it is more desirable than in any other that these sales should be carried out. Where the difficulty exists in its most acute form it

  771
  is unfortunately true that these sales have been very small indeed as compared with other parts of the country, and I should be very glad indeed if anything could be done by the Government to alter that condition of things. But does my hon. friend who recommends compulsion believe that you will solve the difficulty in that part of the country by obtaining compulsory powers to force the landlords to sell? Does he believe that thereby the difficulty with regard to price will be met? I do not believe the difficulty will be solved, either in the West of Ireland or elsewhere, by such wholesale measures as have been suggested. The advantages already flowing from this Act are, I think, apparent to every student of the question and to everybody who desires—as the majority of the people of this country desire—to see Ireland happier, more contented, and more prosperous. For my part, I would rather trust to the effect of this conviction upon the minds of landlord and tenant in the West of Ireland than to the exercise of compulsory powers. I cannot speak yet with that local knowledge which I hope I may be able to acquire in one of those motor tours to which reference has been made, and I feel that until one has seen these cases on the spot, and realises what they mean, it is difficult and perhaps dangerous to commit one's self at all upon them. I repeat, however, that I believe the difficulty for which we have to find a solution is that of providing the money which must be found if the Estates Commissioners are to let the sales go on.
  The mover of the Resolution said that at the present rate of progress it would be thirty years before the land
  772
  of Ireland changed hands. I think he has not realised two things—first, that it is only a little over a year since the Act came into operation, and secondly, that the Estates Commissioners, who have worked hard to make the Act a success, have had to put the whole scheme into working order, to invent their machinery, and to approach various estates with little experience as to how best to deal with them. I think it is not unfair to assume that, if in the first twelve months one-fifth of the land of Ireland has been applied for, in a much shorter period than thirty years the Act will have conferred upon Ireland the almost indescribable benefit of the transference of the land from the present owners to those who are now only occupiers. I believe that the financial difficulty is the only one that can be regarded as really serious. It is impossible for me to deal with the whole question to-night. There are the questions of the evicted tenants and uneconomic holdings. There has been a great deal of controversy as to the respective responsibility of the Executive Government and the Estates Commissioners. I quite agree that it is right and desirable that the House and the country should be able to judge of the responsibility of the Executive Government, on the one hand, and of the Estates Commissioners on the other; and I hope I may settle this controversy once and for all by saying that it is my intention to lay on the Table as soon as I can the regulations which I propose to issue to the Commissioners, setting forth the view of the Executive as to the way in which their duties should be performed. Further, I wish the House to understand that if, in my judgment, it is necessary to alter those regulations in any way,

  773
  I shall consider it part of my duty to lay the amended regulations on the Table. Certainly I can safely say that it would be most undesirable that there should be active interference by the Executive with the Commissioners with regard to any particular case or any detail of their work, and the regulations will be directed to guide them generally in the discharge of their duties. Reference has been made to my connection with the Act constituting the London Water Board and the financial interests there involved. I believe that my experience in that matter will be of some little value. Questions affecting the security of property have to be considered, and I am not going hurriedly or rashly to make any declaration on the subject, but I can assure the House that I shall do my best to remove the obstacles which only temporarily, I believe, stand in the way of the complete and successful development of the Act.
  MR. HAYDENsaid that this debate was to be regarded only

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Findlay, Alexander (Lanark,NE

  Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W.)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Kilbride, Denis

  Ambrose, Robert

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Langley, Batty

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Law, Hugh Alex.(Donegal, W.)

  Boland, John

  Gladstone,Rt Hn. Herbert John

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Brigg, John

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick)

  Lough, Thomas

  Caldwell, James

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Lundon, W.

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Hammond, John

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Cawley, Frederick

  Hardie J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Harrington, Timothy

  M'Kean, John

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Mooney, John J.

  Delany, William

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Moss, Samuel

  Dobbie, Joseph

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Murphy, John

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Higham, John Sharpe

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Duffy, William J.

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N.)

  Ellice, Capt EC(S. Andrw's Bghs)

  Johnson, John

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Ffrench, Peter

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  as the opening of the question, and that the earliest opportunity would be taken to bring the matter forward again. To judge whether the Act had been a success or a failure it was necessary to look into more considerations than the right hon. Gentleman had put forward. It was not enough to look at the number of applications; regard must be had to their character and the portion of the country from which they came. The object of the Act was to settle the Irish land question, and that end would not be secured until the evicted tenants had been reinstated and the problem of congestion solved. Practically nothing had been done in those directions and therefore they were justified in saying the Act was a failure. Their claim for compulsion was rejected by the late Chief Secretary, not on the ground of principle, but because he did not think it would be necessary.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 104; Noes, 139. (Division List No. 76.)

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Roche, John

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  O'Dowd, John

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  O'KellyJames(Roscommon,N.)

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  O'Malley, William

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight)

  Wills,ArthurWalters(N. Dorset)

  O'Mara, James

  Shackleton, David James

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Sheehy, David

  Wood, James

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Young, Samuel

  Reddy, M.

  Sullivan, Donal

  Redmond, John E.(Waterford)

  Thomas David Alfred (Merthyr)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Richards Thomas(W.Monm'th)

  Ure, Alexander

  Sir Thomas Esmonde and

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Waldron, Laurence Ambrose

  Captain Donelan.

  NOES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Forster, Henry William

  Mount, William Arthur

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Garfit, William

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O.

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Arrol, Sir William

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn)

  Percy, Earl

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Pummer, Sir Walter R.

  Balcarres, Lord

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds)

  Hamilton,Marq.of (L'nd'nderry)

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Purvis, Robert

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)

  Randles, John S.

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Rankin, Sir James

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Heath, Sir James (Staffords. NW)

  Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Renwick, George

  Bowles, Lt.-Col. H. F (Middlesex)

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Brassey, Albert

  Hoult, Joseph

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Howard, John(Kent, Faversham

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Bull, William James

  Hunt, Rowland

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.)

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Butcher, John George

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Cavendish, V. C.W. (Derbyshire)

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.

  Smith, Rt Hn J. Parker (Lanarks)

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A. (Worc)

  Kerr, John

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Chapman, Edward

  Keswick, William

  Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lancs.)

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N. R

  Stroyan, John

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants.Fareham)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Colomb, Rt. Hn. Sir John C. R.

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol. S)

  Tuff, Charles

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Turnour, Viscount

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth)

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H (Sheffi'ld)

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H

  Davenport, William Bromley-

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Davies Sir Horatio D. (Chatham)

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Welby, Lt.-Col. ACE (Taunton)

  Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E.

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Wylie, Alexander

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Milvain, Thomas

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Morgan, David J. (Walth'mstow)

  Viscount Valentia

  Finlay Sir R. B. (Inv'rn'ssB'ghs)

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Adjourned at thirteen minutes atter Twelve o'clock.