Commons Sitting of 16 March 1905

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  NORWICH UNION LIFE INSURANCE SOCIETY [STAMP DUTIES].
  Resolution reported,
  "That, in lieu of the Stamp Duties which would have been payable upon the deeds or assurances which, in case the Bill had not been passed into an Act, would have been required to pass to and vest in the Society certain property, there be charged a Stamp Duty of five pounds, and such Duty shall be impressed upon the copy of the intended Act to be delivered to the Registrar of Joint Stock Companies under the section of this Act the marginal note whereof is 'Copy of Act to be registered.'"
  Resolution agreed to.
  Ordered, That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Norwich Union Life Insurance Society Bill that they have power to make provision therein pursuant to the said Resolution.—(Mr. Caldwell.)

  PRIVATE BILLS (GROUP B).
  Mr. CAWLEY reported from the Committee on Group B of Private Bills; That the parties promoting the Gas Light and Coke, South Metropolitan, and Commercial Gas Companies Bill had stated that the evidence of Vivian B. Lewes, Professor of Chemistry at the Royal Naval College, Greenwich, was essential to their case; and, it having been proved that his attendance could not be procured without the intervention of the House, he had been instructed to move that the said Vivian B. Lewes do attend the said Committee To-morrow, at Eleven of the clock.
  Ordered, That Vivian B. Lewes do attend the Committee on Group B of
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  Private Bills To-morrow, at Eleven of the clock.

  SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).
  Mr. HALSEY Mr. HALSEY reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from the Standing Committee on Trade (including Agriculture and Fishing), Shipping, and Manufactures; Mr. Grant Lawson; and had appointed in substitution: Mr. Hare.
  Report to lie upon the Table.
  Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill. Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
  Bill to be read the third time Tomorrow.
  Brompton, Chatham, Gillingham, and Rochester Water Bill; Accrington District Gas and Water Board Bill; Hull, Barnsley, and West Riding Junction Railway and Dock Bill. Reported, with Amendments; Reports to lie upon the Table, and to be printed
  Walker and Wallsend Union Gas Bill. Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table.

  RAILWAY BILLS (GROUP No. 1).
  Sir HENRY KIMBER Sir HENRY KIMBER reported from the Committee on Group No. 1 of Railway Bills; That Mr. Donal Sullivan, one of the members of the said Committee, was not present during the Sitting of the Committee this day.
  Ordered, That Mr. Donal Sullivan do attend the Committee on Tuesday the 28th March, at Eleven of the clock.

  RAILWAY BILLS (GROUP No. 1).
  Sir HENRY KIMBER reported from the Committee on Group No. 1 of Railway Bills; That, for the convenience of parties, the Committee had adjourned till Tuesday the 28th March, at Eleven of the clock.
  Report to lie upon the Table.

PETITIONS.
  MARRIAGE WITH A DECEASED WIFE'S SISTER BILL.
  Petition from Gloucester, against; to lie upon the Table.
  RATING OF MACHINERY BILL.
  Petition from Sunderland, against; to lie upon the Table.
  SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS (SUNDAY) BILL.
  Petition from Grimsby, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  WOMEN'S ENFRANCHISEMENT BILL.
  Petition from East Birmingham, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  MILITARY WORKS ACTS, 1897, 1899, 1901, AND 1903.
  Account presented, for the period ended 31st March, 1904, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General thereon [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 84.]
  NATIONAL DEBT (SAVINGS BANKS AND FRIENDLY SOCIETIES).
  Annual Account presented, for the period ended 20th November, 1904 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 85.]
  ARMY (ORDNANCE FACTORIES).
  Annual Account presented, for the year 1903–4, with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General thereon [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 86.]
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Colonel Williams' Estate (King's County)
  MR. REDDY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that certain landlords in King's County, notably Colonel Williams, owner of an estate at Clonmacnoise, have issued writs against tenants for practically irrecoverable arrears of rent, with a view to compel the said tenants to purchase
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  their holdings; whether Colonel Williams in particular has demanded an average of twenty-four years purchase, he having offered to sell the same holdings a few years ago at an average of eighteen years purchase; and whether he will take any steps in the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) The Land Commission have no information as to the alleged proceedings to recover rent on the estate referred to, and no steps have been taken to initiate purchase proceedings in the case.

  Mosquito-Proof Sleeping Rooms for Railway Employees in West Africa.
  MR. CATHCART WASON: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if, in view of the established relations between malaria fever and mosquito attacks, he will cause inquiry to be made as to the expediency of erecting mosquito-proof sleeping rooms for the employees on our West African railways.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) The quarters provided for railway employees in Sierra Leone and Lagos include mosquito-proof rooms. As regards the Gold Coast I have no information, but I will make inquiry. I may add that mosquito nets have also been supplied by Government, but I understand that some change has recently been made in Lagos, and I will inquire about it.

  Colonial Conference.
  MR. SOARES: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies in what period of the year 1906 will the proposed Colonial Conference take place; whether the instructions to be given to the British representatives will be the same as were given at the last Conference; and whether any opportunity will be afforded to this House of discussing the proposed instructions.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) No date has yet been fixed for the Conference, and no decision has yet been taken as to the subjects referred to in the Question of the hon. Member.

  Chinese and White Labour in the Transvaal Mines.
  MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: To ask the Secretary

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  of State for the Colonies if he can state how many machine-drills worked by white men have been replaced by hand-drills worked by Chinese labourers in the Van Ryn and other mines of the Rand; how many white men previously engaged in this occupation are now unemployed; and how many have been transferred to other work at lower wages.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) I am not in possession of the details desired by the right hon. Member. The information which I have received is to the effect that machine-drilling can only be properly employed in broad seams, and that resort to it in narrow seams is undesirable in the interest of the safety of the mines and the economic working of the ore. I am further informed that the change from machine to hand working under such circumstances is not likely to lead to a reduction in white skilled labour.

  Civil Service Retirement Rules.
  SIR THOMAS ESMONDE,: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he will give a reference to the authority under which Departments are given full discretion to call upon efficient established clerks in the Civil Service with less than forty years of service to retire at the age of sixty, and whether any such power was in existence in 1871; or when the Treasury Minute of December, 1886, was issued requiring temporary copyists to forfeit any gratuity earned by them when promoted to the establishment; also whether he will state if the destination of these forfeited gratuities as well as the sums to be confiscated by the exercise of this power of discretionary retirement at the age of sixty, while efficient and with less than forty years of service, was laid down; whether this power of discretionary compulsory retirement at the age of sixty was made known to these temporary copyists at the time of their proposed beneficial promotion; and whether one of them was officially informed in 1894 that he could not, under the regulations then existing, and would not, if efficient, be called upon to retire before the age of sixty-five.
  (Answered by Mr. Victor Cavendish.) Discretion has always rested with the head of a Department to call upon any of his officers to retire at the age of
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  sixty; and attention was expressly called to this power in the Order of Council of August, 1890. No question arises as to forfeiture of gratuity in the circumstances referred to in the Question. Gratuities were only payable upon retirement, and a temporary copyist when promoted to the establishment became eligible for a pension instead. I have no knowledge on the point raised in the last sentence of the hon. Baronet's Question.

  Pay of Officers of Irish Agricultural Department.
  MR. DELANY: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether any intimation was given, in or about February, 1903, to the Irish Agricultural Department that recurrent applications to the Treasury on behalf of their officers should cease, and that the sanctioned scales of pay should be left to their operation; and, if so, whether any such intimation was intended to apply generally; and, if not, to what particular officers or class of officers such intimation had reference.
  (Answered by Mr. Victor Cavendish.) The letter to which the hon. Member refers related to the Estimates submitted by the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for the year 1903–4, and was of a confidential character. I cannot undertake to discuss the terms or purport of such a document in reply to a Question in this House.

  Memorial of Association of Assistant Clerks.
  MR. THORNTON: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury when it is expected that a reply will be given to the memorial submitted to the Treasury by the Association of Assistant Clerks in December, 1903.
  (Answered by Mr. Victor Cavendish.) I hope to be able to give a reply very shortly.

  Towns Sold under the Irish Land Act, 1903.
  MR. FIELD: To ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland whether he can state the names of towns sold under The Land Act, 1903, and the number of purchasing tenants.
  (Answered by Mr. Atkinson.) Early in 1904 the Estates Commissioners undertook to purchase portion of the town of

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  Boyle, the houses in which portion were held by yearly tenants direct from the landlord. With this exception no towns or villages have been purchased by the Estates Commissioners under the Act of 1903. In some few cases advances have been made for the purchase of houses in villages by the tenants of such houses where the village formed part of an estate mainly agricultural or pastoral in character.

  Royal Irish Constabulary—Statutory Retirement Rules for County and District Inspectors.
  MR. DELANY: To ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland whether he will state what are the statutory rights of county and district inspectors of the Royal Irish Constabulary which forbid their reduction in proportion to that of the rank and file of the force.
  (Answered by Mr. Atkinson.) Under the Acts relating to the Royal Irish Constabulary officers cannot retire on pension, except on the grounds of ill-health, until they are sixty years of age and have completed forty years service. The rank and file of the force can retire on pension at twenty-five years service, and they attain their maximum pension at twenty-nine years service.

  Importation of Dogs.
  MR. SEYMOUR ORMSBY-GORE: To ask

  Rural District

  Parish

  Country.

  Date of Sanction.

  Amount of Loan.

  Number of Houses.

  £

  Thingoe

  Ixworth

  West Suffolk

  20 Dec., 1892

  1700

  8

  Sevenoaks

  Penshurst

  Kent

  28 Sept., 1899

  1,575

  6

  225

  Sevenoaks

  Penshurst

  Kent

  9 Oct., 1902

  1850

  8

  Westbury and Whorwells-down

  Bratton

  Wilts.

  3Dec., 1903

  1,000

  4

  Maldon

  Bradwell near-the sea

  Essex

  28Sept., 1903

  1,250

  6

  22April, 1904

  200

  £7,800

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  the President of the Board of Agriculture if it is proposed to remove the restrictions on the importation of dogs into the United Kingdom.
  (Answered by Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.) I think my hon. friend will see that the maintenance of efficient arrangements to prevent the importation of rabies from abroad is more than ever necessary now that this country has happily been free from that disease for more than two years.

  Provision of Working Class Dwellings in Rural Districts.
  SIR WALTER FOSTER: To ask the President of the Local Government Board how many houses for the working classes have been built or provided by the councils in rural districts under The Housing of the Working Classes Act. 1890, and the Acts amending it; and what are the names of the parishes and counties in which they have been built or provided, and the number of houses so built or provided in each of such parishes.
  (Answered by Mr. Gerald Balfour.) I have no information as to the number of houses actually provided in rural districts under these Acts, but the following table gives particulars of the cases in which loans have been sanctioned for the purpose:—

  Lease to King of Belgians of Bahr-el-Ghazal Territory.
  MR. JAMES O'KELLY: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether at any time any portion of the Bahr-el-Ghazal territory was leased to the King of the Belgians; and, if so, on what terms and for what time was such lease made; and whether such lease is still in existence, or whether it has been cancelled; and, if so, when was it cancelled.
  (Answered by Earl Percy.) Particulars with regard to the lease of a portion of the Bahr-el-Ghazal territory to the Sovereign of the Congo State will be found in the Parliamentary Paper, Treaty Series, No. 15, 1894. The lease was made subject to a reservation of the rights of Egypt, which revived on the reconquest of the Soudan.

  Naval Shooting—Admiral Percy Scott's Inventions.
  MR. KEARLEY: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the Admiralty, considering the improvement in naval shooting by the use, in the naval gunnery schools, of Admiral Percy Scott's inventions, will order the immediate equipment of all Naval Reserve drill ships, batteries, and Volunteer Reserve drill premises with these instruments.
  (Answered by Mr. Pretyman.) The general introduction of these instruments for use in the naval service is necessarily a costly proceeding, and the sea-going Fleet is the first consideration in the order of supply. Some of these instruments, moreover, are not considered necessary instructional appliances for Royal Naval Reserve and Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve men, and in other cases are not suitable for use with the drill armaments of the establishments in question. Such, however, as are suitable and considered necessary are being supplied when available.

  Rules under the Railway Employment (Prevention of Accidents) Act, 1900.
  MR. JOHN ELLIS: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade whether rules have now been made and are in force with
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  respect to all the subjects mentioned in the schedule to The Railway Employment (Prevention of Accidents) Act, 1900; if not, which of the subjects are still without rules, and at what stage is the action necessary to make or complete the rules respecting it or them; and whether any application has been made to his Department under the provisions of Section 14 of the same Act.
  (Answered by Mr. Bonar Law.) Rules have been made with respect to all the subjects in the schedule of the Act referred to with the exception of those numbered 1,7, and 8, and the rules are in force except those relating to boilergauge glasses and water gauges on engines, which come into operation next August. The subjects in the schedule not yet dealt with by rule are "brake levers on both sides of waggons," "the position of offices and cabins near working lines," and "the marking of fouling points." As the hon. Member is aware, the Board of Trade were desirous that the brakes to be used should be capable of being both applied and released from either side of a waggon, and proposed a rule to that effect; but so far no form of brake that has been tested has proved altogether satisfactory. Further trials will, however, be made, and it has been arranged to hold such trials at the beginning of next month. As regards the other points the Board are advised that they can be dealt with, as occasion may arise, more conveniently than by general rule under Section 1 (1) of the Act. No application has been made to the Department under Section 14 of the Act.

  Sugar Convention and Golden Syrup.
  MR. HARMOOD-BANNER: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade under what circumstances it has been found necessary to issue a circular marked C. 893 proposing to invite the Permanent Sugar Commission to include golden syrup in the Sugar Convention; and whether, seeing that the proposal would necessitate all syrup manufacturers working in bond to the detriment of the small manufacturers, he will consider the advisability of withdrawing the circular.

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  (Answered by Mr. Bonar Law.) No circular making any proposal of the kind suggested has been issued. I suppose by the reference number quoted that allusion must be intended to a confidential inquiry made by the Board of Trade as to the opinion of syrup manufacturers not working in bond with regard to the classification of syrup for the purposes of the Sugar Convention. It is evidently important that the Board of Trade should know the views of the trade on a matter affecting their interests, and there can be no question of withdrawing the inquiry.

  Goods guards and brakesmen.

  Permanent way men.

  Shunters.

  Killed

  28

  104

  27

  Injured

  721

  161

  587

  Annual Leave in Exeter Post Office.
  MR. SOARES: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that in 1899 an arrangement was entered into at Exeter between the Department and the staff with reference to annual leave, and that the staff made certain sacrifices, and in consideration thereof the Department agreed to send a certain number of the staff on holidays throughout the season of annual leave; and, seeing that the holidays for 1905 have been altered by the Department without reference to the staff, whether the Postmaster-General will slate the reasons for the Department departing from its part of the compromise of 1899.
  (Answered by Lord Stanley.) In 1899 the Department arranged that the Exeter telegraph staff should receive the greater portion of its annual leave in the eight better months of the year, and this arrangement is still in force. Owing to pressure of work in the summer it cannot be arranged for the same number to be away in July, August, and September as in the remaining five months of this period.

  Postal Service at Glastrigan, North Tipperary.
  MR. P. J. O'BRIEN: To ask the Postmaster-General

  Accidents to Railway Servants.
  MR. JOHN ELLIS: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade what were the numbers out of the totals of 410 railway servants killed, and 3,882 railway servants injured, in 1904 from train accidents and movement of trains and vehicles, of goods guards and brakesmen, permanent way men, and shunters, respectively.
  (Answered by Mr. Bonar Law.) The numbers, subject to possible slight alterations before the Returns are published, are as under:—
  if he is aware of the necessity that exists for a better postal service at Glastrigan, North Tipperary; is he aware that there is an extensive creamery business carried on there, having two auxiliary depots, and that there are also three business houses in the village, with two schools adjacent, where some 150 children attend daily; that those establishments have little more than one hour daily to manage their correspondence, inasmuch as the single post arrives about 9 a.m. by a postal messenger who returns again to Borrisoleigh at 10.15 a.m.; and whether, seeing that the letters from the creamery alone average 80 per week, he will consider the necessity for the establishment of a sub-post office at Glastigran.
  (Answered by Lord Stanley.) The inquiry which I promised the hon. Member last week is not yet complete. When it is complete I will communicate the result to him.

  Barking Sewage Outfall—Compulsory Acquirement of Land by the London County Council.
  MR. LOUIS SINCLAIR: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has issued a Provisional Order under the provisions of Section 152 of The Metropolis Management Act, 1855, giving

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  to the London County Council powers to compulsorily acquire lands for the treatment of sewage in connection with their northern outfall system at Barking; and, if so, whether he will suspend such Order until such time as the local authority within whose district such lands are situated shall have been heard in accordance with the request contained in their letter of 7th March, 1905; whether, seeing that the land available for such purpose in the immediate neighbourhood is limited in area, and surrounded by densely-populated districts, the requirements of the Local Government Board as to the area of bacteria beds for the treatment of sewage on the lines proposed will be complied with.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.) No, Sir. What is required of me by the Metropolis Management Act is, not to make a Provisional Order, but merely to give or withhold my consent in writing to the compulsory acquisition of land by the London County Council. I have not yet given this consent, and I will not give it without full and careful consideration of the objections urged by the Barking Urban District Council.

  Adulteration of Wine.
  MR. ALBAN GIBBS: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer what steps have been, or will be, taken for preventing the fraudulent admixture with port, sherry, and claret, of British wines made from currants and raisins paying a very low duty (and in a lesser degree made from foreign grape-must paying no duty), in view of the injury caused to the revenue.
  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) Only two days ago I received from the Board of Inland Revenue a Report on this subject founded on such information as the Board have been able to procure. I propose now to consider the whole matter carefully; but the hon. Member will understand that some time must necessarily elapse before I am able to announce what steps, if any, I may find it advisable to take for the better protection of the revenue derived from imported foreign wines.

  Mr. Dane's Mission to Cabul.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether he is yet in a position to state briefly the result of Mr. Dane's Mission to Cabul.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.): The Mission is still at Cabul, and it would not be in the public interest to make any statement at present.

  Coopers Hill School of Forestry.
  SIR JOHN GORST: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether he is now prepared to lay upon the Table the scheme for removing the Coopers Hill School of Forestry to Oxford, and the correspondence relating thereto.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) I am prepared to lay Papers upon the Table.

  County Kerry Evicted Tenants—McCartie Estate.
  MR. MURPHY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Estates Commissioners have received applications from Mrs. Johanna Bowler, Mr. Denis Healy, and Mr. Patrick Sullivan as evicted tenants on the McCartie Estate at Headfort, county Kerry; and if the Commissioners have done or propose to do anything in connection with the applications, as the sale of the estate is now proceeding. (Answered, by Mr. Atkinson.) The Estates Commissioners have received applications from the persons named, whose claims will be inquired into and reported upon by the inspector when he visits the estate. A request to the Land Judge, under Section 7, has been issued in regard to this estate, but the particulars have not yet been furnished.

  Irish Tithe Rent-Charge Redemption— Claim against Mr. Sinnott.
  SIR THOMAS ESMONDE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland how is it that Mr. Sinnott, of Ballinaclash, Enniscorthy, county Wexford, has been sued by the Irish Land Commission for £4 11s., tithe

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  rent, in respect of his holding of fifty-four acres which he purchased under the former Land Purchase Acts, and under which purchase the proportion of the original tithe rent-charge due on his fifty-four acres should have been redeemed by the vendor, and in view of the fact that the total tithe rent for the 128 acres comprised in Ballinaclash was only £3 a year, and that seventy-four acres of that townland have been purchased by other tenants.
  (Answered by Mr. Atkinson.) Before the purchase Mr. Sinnott, and not his landlord, was liable for payment of the tithe rent-charge, as he held under a lease made in 1798 for 999 years. Since the purchase by Mr. Sinnott the question of the liability has been the subject of litigation, and by an order of Mr. Justice Ross, made 7th March, 1904, Mr. Sinnott's future annual liability has been fixed at £4 11s. l0d. per annum. The £4 11s. mentioned in the Question represents unpaid arrears.

  Armagh Technical School Headmaster-ship.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the recent appointment of a Mr. Caffery to the head-mastership of Armagh Technical School, he can state what the qualifications of this gentleman are; was his name upon the register according to the Act of 1902 which dealt with secondary teachers; and in what papers, if any, was the vacancy advertised.
  (Answered by Mr. Atkinson.) Mr. Caffrey holds advanced certificates from the Board of Education, South Kensington, and the City and Guilds of London Institute in building trades subjects and possesses practical experience of a character such as to fit him for the duties of the post. The Department are not aware whether Mr. Caffrey's name is upon the register of teachers formed by the Teachers' Registration Council under the Order in Council of the 6th March, l902, as they do not require that persons holding posts of this character should be on the register. The vacancy was advertised by the local committee in the following papers, Irish Times, Freeman's
  184
  Journal, Manchester Guardian, and the Scotsman.

  Compulsory Education of the Blind in Ireland.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether it is the intention of the Government to bring in a Bill this session for the compulsory education of the blind under similar conditions to that at present existing in England and Scotland; and, if not, will any steps be taken to give effect to any of the recommendations of the Royal Commission of 1885.
  (Answered by Mr. Atkinson.) The recommendations of the Royal Commission can only be given effect to by legislation. The question of the introduction of legislation in the present session is under consideration by my right hon. friend.

  Comyn Kenny and Longworth Estates.
  MR. ROCHE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the date upon which agreements for purchase of the Comyn Kenny and Longworth Estates were entered into by the Congested Districts Board; and whether the land has yet been given to the tenants in the district; and, if not, why.
  (Answered by Mr. Atkinson.) In the case of the Comyn Kenny Estate the agreement for purchase with the vendor, in pursuance of Section 79 of the Land Act of 1903, has not yet been entered into owing to certain requirements under the rules not having been complied with, but it is expected that the agreement will shortly be completed. In the case of the Dames Longworth Estate, the agreement for purchase was executed on the 1st February last, but the estate has not yet been vested in the Board. The Congested Districts Board are not in a position to divide lands amongst the tenants until the property is legally vested in them.

  South African War—Forage Contracts.
  MR. LEVY: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the statement of the Comptroller

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  and Auditor-General that the Director of Supplies in South Africa from October, 1902, to December, 1903, disposed of stores which realised £474,000 to three firms, two of whom were forage contractors to the Army; what was the loss to the Government by these sales; who these contractors were; whether they are still on the list of Government contractors; why oats and oat-hay, which had been purchased during January, 1903, at 17s. 11½d. and 17s. 8½d. per 100 1bs., were sold to the same contractor who supplied this forage for 11s. and 10s. per 100 1bs. respectively between January and March, 1903; and whether the amount of £21,232 allowed for deterioration was in respect of forage supplied by the selfsame contractor; and why the contracts asked for in reference to these transactions have not been transmitted to the Comptroller and Auditor-General.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Arnold-Forster.) The names of the contractors are E. Stepney, of Standerton, South Africa; Messrs. Meyer and Co., of Pretoria; and Messrs. Wilson and Worthington, of Pretoria. Two of these contractors hold contracts for the year 1904–5. The copies of the contracts called for were, on receipt of the audit query, obtained from South Africa; they have not yet been forwarded to the Auditor-General, as they are at present detained for the special inquiry at the War Office to which I alluded yesterday. The other points raised can hardly be dealt with within the limits of an Answer to a Question. They will form part of the reply which will be sent to the Auditor-General after the inquiry has been held.

  South African War—Comptroller and Auditor-General's Demand for Copies of Store Contracts.
  MR. LEVY: To ask the Secretary of State for War why the requests made by the Comptroller and Auditor-General during 1904 for copies of certain contracts for supplies of stores, etc., for the South African War have not been complied with; and whether it is the intention of the War Office to supply copies of these contracts to the Auditor-General.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Arnold-Forster.) The copies of the contracts,
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  for which the Auditor-General asked, were at once called for from South Africa. These contracts have been under investigation by the Committee which is now sitting at the War Office, but I have given orders that they shall be forwarded at once to the Auditor-General.

  Nigerian Civil Servants' Grievances.
  MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that some discontent has been caused among Civil servants in Northern Nigeria, who were engaged on the understanding that they were to receive a local allowance of 5s. a day until permanent houses were provided and the high cost of living was reduced, and whose allowance is now to be curtailed to 2s. 6d. a day in the provinces and 1s. a day at Zungeru and Lokoja, although many of these officers are still unprovided with proper houses, and the cost of living has rather increased than declined; and what steps he proposes to take in the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) The High Commissioner has received representations from several Civil officers of Northern Nigeria on the subject of the reduction of the "local allowance" which has recently been made in certain cases. This reduction is in accordance with the conditions, of their appointment, in which it was explained that an allowance of 5s. a day would be granted as a temporary measure in view of the inconvenience to which they would be exposed through there being no permanent houses and of the comparatively high cost of living under the conditions prevailing when the administration was being established, but that the arrangement would be subject to revision when these conditions were improved and permanent quarters had been provided. The reduction of the allowance which, with the concurrence of Sir F. Lugard, is now being made, is confined to cases where permanent quarters are provided, and the reduced allowance is being fixed at rates varying according to the cost of living at the different stations. Officers who are not provided with permanent quarters will continue for the present to receive the allowance at the rate of 5s. a day as before.

  Royalty on Cape Colony and Transvaal Diamonds.
  MR. RANDLES: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware that the royalty on diamonds in Cape Colony is 1 per cent. on the value of diamonds, whilst it is 60 per cent, of the profits in the Transvaal; and whether he will, in the interests of the newer colony, consider the advisability of assimilating more nearly these royalties.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) No comparison is possible between the two colonies in this matter, as in the Transvaal the right of mining for and disposing of all precious stones was under the law of the late South African Republic, and is also under British law vested in the Crown, and there is no such law in the Cape Colony. I may add that in the Cape an income-tax has been introduced to which the mines contribute largely. I am not prepared to contemplate altering the Transvaal law.

  Currency—International Conference.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the Government intend to take any steps to promote an International Conference with the object of securing a stable basis of currency and exchange between the leading commercial Nations.
  (Answered by Mr. A. J. Balfour.) The Government do not contemplate taking any steps in the direction suggested in he Question.

  Redistribution of Seats Bill.
  MR. COGHILL: To ask the First Lord of the Treasury when he proposes to introduce the Redistribution of Seats Bill.
  (Answered by Mr. A. J. Balfour.) In the present condition of public business I cannot fix a date for introducing proposals in connection with redistribution.

  South African War Contracts—Names of Contractors.
  DR. MACNAMARA: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will state the names of the firms supplying the 1,034,532 emergency
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  rations and the 4,537,090 meat and vegetable rations, stated at page 257 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General as having been destroyed in South Africa; whether his attention has been called to the statement in the Report in question that of the 1,034,532 condemned emergency rations 955,727 were supplied by Messrs. Maconochie, and to the statement that this firm substituted 365,600 rations on account of condemned supplies, many of these substituted rations being also subsequently found to be unsound; and whether he will state the nature of the final claim against this contractor recently submitted to the Treasury, as described on page 258 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Arnold-Forster.) As regards the first part of the Question, the names of the firms, so far as they can be traced, are as follows:—Maconochie Brothers; Poulton and Noel; London Canning Company; Moir and Wilson; Moir and Sons; Davidson, R. and W.; Sturton Brothers; Bruce, W.; Aberdeen Preserving Company; Duhamel and Company; Milne and Son; Morton, E. and C.; Bovril, Limited; Chamberlain, H. R.; Woolwich. The reply to the second part of the Question is in the affirmative. The final claim on Messrs. Maconochie is for £2,500.

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  H.M.S. "Grafton."
  MR. MAJENDIE: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty when H.M.S. "Grafton" returned home; and if she is to be paid off at Portsmouth or Chatham, and when.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. PRETYMAN, Suffolk, Wood-bridge): The "Grafton" reached Portsmouth from the Pacific Station on December 30th, 1904. She will be paid off at Portsmouth on April 3rd.

  Greenwich Hospital Chapel.
  SIR ERNEST FLOWER: I beg to ask the Civil Lord of the

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  Admiralty if it is possible to arrange that the chapel at Greenwich Hospital shall be open to the public on Saturday afternoons at a later hour than 3p.m., in order to enable a larger number of people to enjoy an opportunity of visiting the interior.
  THE CIVIL LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. ARTHUR LEE, Hampshire, Fareham): The chapel at Greenwich Hospital is closed on Saturdays at 3 p.m. in order that the men whose duty it is to prepare it for the services on the following day may be enabled, on the completion of this work, to take the few hours leave to which they are entitled. In these circumstances I regret that I am unable to arrange for the chapel to be kept open beyond that hour.

  Somaliland Treaties.
  MR. HARWOOD: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the treaties which it is alleged compelled us to undertake the expeditions into the interior of Somaliland will be considered as abrogated now that it has been decided to undertake no more such expeditions, and, by restoring arms to the tribesmen, to return to the condition before these treaties were agreed upon.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS(Earl PERCY,): No, Sir, the Answer is in the negative.

  Baku Massacres.
  MR. MALCOLM: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can inform the House of the extent of the massacre of Armenians by the Russians at Baku.
  EARL PERCY: I presume that the hon. Member refers to the disturbances which broke out on Sunday, February 19th, between the Tartar and Armenian inhabitants of Baku. From a report received from His Majesty's Consul at Ratum it appears that the fighting lasted for four days, during which Armenian houses were burned and pitched battles look place between the two parties. Members of several leading
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  Armenian families were besieged in their houses and put to death, the number thus killed being estimated by some at over 500 and by others at nearly 1,000. The total loss of life is stated to have been nearly 2,000. Order was at last restored by the joint intervention of the Governor and the ecclesiastical authorities of the Mussulman and Armenian communities.

  Income-Tax Collection.
  MR. CROMBIE: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Inland Revenue officers (Excisemen) are being employed to collect the arrears of income-tax in Scotland; and whether this is also being done in England and Wales.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN,): In Scotland practically the whole of the income-tax is collected by Inland Revenue officers. In England and Wales, Inland Revenue officers are employed for the collection only in certain of the urban districts, and only for tax under Schedules D. and E. Wherever the collection is entrusted to Inland Revenue officers, those officers are employed to collect arrears as well as the rest of the tax.
  In reply to a further Question, the right hon. Gentleman said the nomination of collectors rested in England mainly with the District Commissioners, and it only fell to the Inland Revenue when they failed to nominate or nominated one who could not give security.
  MR. MCCRAE: Is it not the case that only within the last two years this practice has been adopted in Scotland?
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman has personal experience of the practice more than two years back. I understand it has been the practice for many years, but if a Question is put down I will inquire.

  Inoculation at Glasgow—Vivisection Returns.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will state how

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  many animals were inoculated with the rabies virus in the performance of the two experiments carried out by Mr. R. M. Buchanan, at the Veterinary College, Glasgow, under The Cruelty to Animals Act, 1876, referred to in the Government Inspector's Report for 1903; and will he state the number of animals used for the purpose of vivisection under the above Act for the years 1903 and 1904.
  *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. AKERS-DOUGLAS,): In the two experiments in question two rabbits were inoculated, not with rabies virus but with emulsion of the brain of a dog which had been killed by the police on suspicion that it was rabid. The experiments were carried out at the Glasgow Public Health Laboratory, not at the Veterinary College. In answer to the second part of the Question, I have to say that the Returns for 1904 are not yet complete. In 1903 the number of experiments performed was 19,084, of which nearly 17,000 were inoculation or feeding experiments. The number of animals used for the purpose of these experiments cannot be precisely stated, but it is slightly less than the total number of experiments.

  Workmen's Compensation Act Amendment Bill.
  MR. J. F. HOPE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he hopes to be able to introduce the Workmen's Compensation Act Amendment Bill.
  *MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: This Bill will be introduced in another place, probably to-morrow.

  Unproductive Prison Labour.
  SIR ERNEST FLOWER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he can state whether any cranks or tread-wheels are still in use in His Majesty's prisons; and whether any form of unproductive labour still exists.
  *MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: No form of unproductive labour now exists in His Majesty's prisons. At two prisons the machinery of wheels and cranks is still in use as a means of pumping water, but
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  employment on this duty is for ordinary prison service, and is no longer a prescribed form of hard labour.

  Women Inspectors of Prisons
  SIR ERNEST FLOWER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will take into consideration the desirability of appointing a woman inspector charged with the special duty of inspecting the women's department in His Majesty's prisons.
  *MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: My Answer to this Question must be the same as that which was given to the hon. Member by my predecessor, the right hon. Member for Croydon, on the 31st January, 1902,† namely, that the appointment of women inspectors of prisons was fully considered on the Report of the Prisons Committee of 1895, and it was determined to meet the want by an extension of voluntary aid. There is now no prison in which women are confined without a staff of duly appointed lady visitors. The work of these lady visitors is very well and thoroughly performed under the auspices of the Lady Visitors Association, whose President is the Duchess of Bedford.

  Laundry Work in Religious Institutions— Powers of Inspection
  MR. T. L. CORBETT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether there is any official list of establishments belonging to various religious societies where laundry work is carried on; and whether the Government propose to introduce legislation to make such laundries subject to the ordinary law.
  *MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: Yes, Sir, there is such a list. It was prepared after the passing of the Factory Act of 1901, in fulfilment of the promise made by my predecessor at the time. I do not contemplate introducing legislation such as the hon. Member suggests. I may add that about half these laundries have consented to be inspected, and are, at the present time, regularly inspected by His Majesty's Inspectors of Factories and Workshops.
  † See (4) Debates, cii., 28.
  MR. T. L. CORBETT: Including those belonging to the Roman Catholic Church?
  *MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: Certainly; that is the whole point.
  MR. T. L. CORBETT: No, it is not the whole point.
  MR. SLOAN: Will the right hon. Gentleman give a list of the institutions inspected?
  *MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: I do not think there will be any objection to that; but if the hon. Member will put down a Question I will consider it.
  MR. T. L. CORBETT: Also of those that refuse to allow inspection?
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: Is it not a fact that when proposals were before the House for inspecting these institutions, many Protestant institutions objected to inspection on the same ground as Catholics did?

  The London Census.
  MR. REA: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board what steps he proposes to take with regard to the taking of a census of London in 1906 similar to that taken in 1896; whether he proposes that the census should include ages, and any other information, beyond a mere enumeration of the population; and whether it will extend to Greater London and the county boroughs.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR, Leeds, Central): The census taken in London in 1896 was obtained for the purposes of the London Equalisation of Rates Act, 1894, and I am in communication with the Registrar-General and the London County Council on the question whether a census should be taken for a like purpose in 1906, and if so, what it should contain. A census for this purpose would obviously be limited to the Administrative County of London.

  South Metropolitan School District
  MR. CROOKS: I beg to ask the President of the Local Govern
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  ment Board why the Older for winding up the South Metropolitan School District, which was dissolved by the Board in 1898, has not been issued, all the parties being in agreement.
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: It was found necessary to obtain legislation to provide for the transfer of property and other matters consequent upon the dissolution of districts of this kind, and an Act was obtained for the purpose last year. There were still some difficulties as to the transfer of stock belonging to the district in the books of the Bank of England, but an Order has now been made with the concurrence of the Bank which is expected to put an end to these difficulties, and to enable the affairs of the district to be wound up without further delay.

  Shipping Freight Rebates.
  MR. CHARLES ALLEN: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade whether he can say if the system of rebates granted by steamship owners to shippers, as it exists in this country, has been declared illegal in the United States; and, if so, whether this was done by a decision of the Law Courts, or by legislative enactment; and, if by the latter, can he give the reference number of the statute.
  THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. BONAR LAW, Glasgow, Blackfriars): I am not able to say definitely whether any final decision has yet been arrived at in the United States Courts with regard to the legality or otherwise of the system of rebates, but I am aware that the question has been raised under an Act of Congress of July, 1890, cap. 647.

  Preferential Shipping Rates to South Africa.
  MR. CHARLES ALLEN: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the fact that the Conference Lines of steamers sailing to South Africa grant preferential rates to the United States shippers as compared with those which they grant to shippers in this country; and whether, in view of this handicap to

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  British export trade, he proposes to take, or has taken, any action.
  MR. BONAR LAW: The attention of the Board of Trade has been called to the matter to which the hon. Member refers, and it is receiving careful consideration.

  Seamen's Wages.
  SIR HARRY SAMUEL: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade if he can state how the rate of wages at present paid to seamen in our mercantile marine compares with the rate paid in 1890.
  MR. BONAR LAW: Rates of wages of seamen vary considerably according to the class of man, class of vessel, voyage and port. The average rates of money wages of A.B's shipped at five large ports in Great Britain on steamships engaged in four of the principal foreign voyages are now between four and five per cent. lower than in 1890, which was a year of maximum wages. Particulars of recent changes in seamen's wages were published in the Board of Trade Labour Gazette for December, 1904.

  Nationality of Seamen in the British Mercantile Marine.
  MR. MARKS: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade if he can state how the number of British seamen employed in our mercantile marine in 1903 compares with the number employed in the same service in 1888; also if he can give similar information with reference to foreign seamen employed in our mercantile marine.
  SIR HARRY SAMUEL: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade if he can state the present number of foreign seamen employed in our mercantile marine, and the number of British seamen employed in the same service.
  MR. BONAR LAW: In 1888 the number of British persons, not including lascars, employed in vessels belonging to the United Kingdom, Isle of Man, and Channel Islands engaged in the home and foreign trades was 179,969, and in 1903 the number was 176,520. The number of foreign persons so employed was
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  25, 277 in 1888, and 40,396 in 1903. This information answers also the Question put by my hon. friend the Member for Limehouse.
  SIR HARRY SAMUEL: Is it not the fact that a large number of the seamen in the British mercantile marine are engaged in British ports?
  MR. BONAR LAW: I should like to have notice of that Question.

  "British" Guns made Abroad—Infringements of the Merchandise Marks Act.
  MR. JESSE COLLINGS: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the practice of foreign gun makers of sending to this country gun barrels, gun actions, and complete guns for the purpose of having the English proof marks placed upon them, thereby concealing the foreign origin of the goods, and that these foreign guns, after being so marked, are sold at home and abroad as British-made arms, sometimes with English makers' names on them; and whether he will take steps in the interests of British gun-workers under the Merchandise Marks Acts, 1887–1891, or by some other means, to put a stop to this practice.
  MR. BONAR LAW: The attention of the Board of Trade has been called to this matter, and they have stated that they are prepared if any specific case of infringement of the Merchandise Marks Act, 1887, with regard to the marking of foreign made guns is brought before them in accordance with their regulations under the Merchandise Marks Act, 1891, to consider carefully the question of instituting proceedings.
  MR. JESSE COLLINGS: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the majority of guardians who govern the proof house are men who import foreign guns in a more or less finished state, mark them with the British proof mark and sell them everywhere as British goods, although there is only a few shillings' worth of British labour in such goods and in some none at all? Will he make inquiry into this matter?
  MR. CROOKS: Do the Government themselves purchase from private firms any goods manufactured in this manner?
  MR. BONAR LAW: I cannot now answer the Question of the hon. Member for Woolwich. With regard to the Question of the hon. Member for Bordesly, I am aware of the general facts. The secretary of the association which represents the gun-workers has promised to furnish a specific case, and until that is done the Board cannot take any further action.

  Brendon School—Teachers' Duties.
  DR. MACNAMARA: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether his attention has been called to the advertisement issued on behalf of the Devon Education Committee, for a certificated headmaster for Brendon, average about fifty, also supplementary teacher, Art. 68, salary £20 to £35, harmonium church, extra, choral service; and whether he will call the attention of the committee to Article 15 of the Education Code, which states that the teacher is not to be required to perform any duties except such as are connected with the work of the school.
  THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Sir WILLIAM ANSON,): I have no information as to the case referred to by the hon. Member. The action of the Board in such cases must necessarily depend upon the circumstances of each particular case.
  DR. MACNAMARA: Will the hon. Gentleman call the attention of the committee to the fact?
  SIR WILLIAM ANSON: If the hon. Member will furnish me with the necessary information I will consider the matter.

  Underfed School Children.
  *MR. J. F. HOPE: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether he hopes during the present session to introduce legislation dealing with the feeding of children in public elementary schools.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSON: It is not intended to introduce any such legislation during the present session.

  Buckingham Palace Approach
  MR. PURVIS: I beg to ask the hon. Member for Chorley, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, when the main approach from Charing Cross to Buckingham Palace is to be completed.
  LORD BALCARRES: It is impossible to forecast the date of completion at present; it is not only a question of making a street but of completing the building which is to be placed at the end of it, of which an elevation will within a few days be exhibited in the tea-room of the House.

  The Extension of the Mall.
  SIR WILLIAM TOMLINSON: I beg to ask the hon. Member for the Chorley Division of Lancashire, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether any design has been prepared for finishing off the blank wall left by the demolition of the two houses in Cockspur Street to make room for carrying the continuation of the Mall through to Charing Cross; and when it is expected that the works for opening out the road opposite to the entrance to Drummond's Bank will be commenced.
  LORD BALCARRES: I think I can only refer the hon. Baronet to the reply given to the last Question.

  Highland Water Supply
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord-Advocate whether special water supply districts in the Highland crofting counties which have been formed under the Public Health Acts since The Agricultural Rates (Scotland) Act, 1896, was passed, will be brought within the scope of the Act when it is renewed.
  *THE LORD-ADVOCATE (Mr. SCOTT DICKSON, Glasgow, Bridgton): The Secretary for Scotland does not contemplate the introduction of a Bill to amend the Act referred to by the hon. Member.

  North Sea Investigations—H.M.S. "Jackal."
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord-Advocate if he will state on how many days last year H.M.S. "Jackal" was employed on the International North Sea investigations; and was any application made to the Admiralty for the services of a cruiser to take up the sea police duties for which the "Jackal" was originally detailed.
  *MR. SCOTT DICKSON: During the year 1904 the "Jackal" was employed in connection with the North Sea Investigations for a total period of twenty-seven days, on three different occasions of nine, eight, and ten days each. No relief ship was applied for.

  Fish Carriage from Ullapool to Kyle.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord-Advocate whether he is aware that the steamer engaged by the Congested Districts Board to convey fish from Ullapool and other ports en route to Kyle has broken down on several occasions since the middle of February; and will he state whether arrangements can be made for the employment of a more efficient steamer.
  *MR. SCOTT DICKSON: I am aware that the steamer engaged to carry fish from Ullapool to Kyle broke down. The cause of the breakdown has now been removed, and there is no reason to believe that an efficient service cannot be maintained.
  MR. WEIR: It has broken down on several occasions.

  Scottish Parochial Medical Officers.
  *MR. CATHCART WASON: I beg to ask the Lord-Advocate if his attention has been directed to the numbers of cases of dismissal of medical officers in Scotland, and the hardships suffered thereby by the poor, and to the Report of the Departmental Committee of the Local Government Board to inquire into such cases, and to the fact that the Medical Association has publicly advertised warning applicants against accepting appointments in certain parishes; and if, under all the circumstances, he will bring the
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  urgency of the case before the Government with a view to immediate legislation.
  *MR. SCOTT DICKSON: The matters referred to have been considered by the Secretary for Scotland, but the Government cannot undertake to legislate on the subject this session. The hon. Member has himself introduced a Bill on the subject, and, as he is aware, the question is a very controversial one.
  *MR. CATHCART WASON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that practically all the Scottish non-official Members are in favour of the right to appeal, and have signed a memorial to the Secretary for Scotland to that effect.
  *MR. SCOTT DICKSON: I am not.

  Shetland Whaling Stations—Whale Fisheries (Scotland) Bill.
  MR. CATHCART WASON: I beg to ask the Lord-Advocate if, in view of the nuisance caused by the manner in which certain whaling stations ended their operations in Shetland, the Government will introduce at an earlier date a measure providing for the regulation of these operations.
  *MR. SCOTT DICKSON: The Secretary for Scotland has already introduced a Bill entitled the Whale Fisheries (Scotland) Bill, and the Local Government Board are in communication with the local authorities concerned as to the framing of by-laws to regulate the industry.
  MR. CATHCART WASON: Where will the Bill be introduced?
  *MR. SCOTT DICKSON: It has been introduced in another place.

  Scottish Tables of Precedence.
  MR. CALDWELL: I beg to ask the Lord-Advocate if he can state the reasons why, in the scales of general precedence in Scotland, published in the London Gazette of March 14th current, precedence in Scotland is given to Dukes of England over Dukes of Scotland, whilst Dukes of Great Britain come last, and similarly with regard to other titles, the holders of English titles taking

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  precedence of holders of Scotch titles; and whether such table of precedence in Scotland is compatible with the Treaty of Union between England and Scotland.
  *MR. SCOTT DICKSON: I would refer the hon. Member to Article 23 of the Act of Union, which clearly defines the order of precedence between members of Scottish, English, and British Peerages in the sense of the scale of precedence which has been recently issued.
  MR. CALDWELL: Is there not this important difference in the case of Scotch Peers who by the Treaty of Union become Members of the House of Lords, that they sit in England and attend Court in England, whereas in the present case we are dealing with precedence limited to Scotland alone?
  MR. T. W. RUSSELL: Before the Lord-Advocate answers, may I ask where do the Irish Dukes come in?
  *MR. SCOTT DICKSON: I have enough to do with Scotch Dukes. According to the right construction of the statute, I think the view of the hon. Member is not sound, and that the procedure adopted in the scale of precedence published is the right one.
  MR. CALDWELL: Can you explain why it is that the question of precedence should be broken up into nationalities, and not be made applicable to the United Kingdom as a whole?
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order ! The hon. Member will no doubt find other opportunities of arguing this question.

  Experimental Science Teaching in Ireland.
  MR. SLOAN: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he will explain for what reason the teaching of experimental science under the Board of Education in Ireland is now being stopped for want of funds; and whether, in view of the fact that the teaching of experimental science in Irish national schools has the approval of all creeds and classes, he will renew the grant required to meet the necessary expenditure.
  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. ATKINSON,): At the request of my right hon. friend I will reply to this Question. The period for which the original grant for the science training of teachers by the Board's organisers was made expires on the 31st instant. It is not correct to say that the teaching of elementary science has been stopped for want of funds; on the contrary, instruction in elementary science is progressing in the schools and there is no reason to anticipate that it will diminish in the future.
  MR. SLOAN: Why has the renewal of the grant been refused?
  MR. ATKINSON: The period for which it was made has not yet expired.

  Irish Language in Irish Schools
  MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY: I beg to ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland, did the teachers under the Irish National Board who failed last July to obtain certificates of competency to teach Irish receive notification of their failure from the Education Office; and will those teachers who heretofore taught Irish successfully, and were certified by Irish-speaking inspectors as competent, receive results for the teaching of Irish in the future, though having no formal certificates.
  MR. ATKINSON: The results of the last July Examinations in extra branches (Irish included) have been notified to the principals of the training colleges or to the managers in the cases of all those who were successful. It is not the practice to issue notification of failure except upon special application from the manager or teacher concerned. Every teacher of an extra branch is required to produce a certificate, or other satisfactory proof, of his qualifications to teach that subject.

  Land Purchase in County Limerick— Gascoigne Estate.
  MR. LUNDON: I beg to ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland whether he is aware that applications for the sale of the Gascoigne Estate in and around Kilfinane, in the county of Limerick, have been lodged with the

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  Estates Commissioners; and that a petition has been lodged with the Commissioners by the Town Tenants' Association of Kilfinane on behalf of the inhabitant occupiers of that town; and whether, seeing that untenanted land previously in the occupation of the landlord and situated at Spa Hill, near the town, has been lately broken into small applotments and assigned to the estate bailiff, thus creating a new tenancy and frustrating the intention of the Land Act of 1903, while other applotments have been advertised for sale by public auction, so that the landlord may have two profits, one from the tenant right, and the other from the purchase money to be advanced by the Estates Commissioners, he will say what action the Commissioners will take on the petition.
  MR. ATKINSON: I regret to have to ask the hon. Member to postpone this Question till to-morrow. I have to make the same request of other hon. Gentlemen who have Questions on the Paper. Owing to the storm there has been a telegraphic breakdown and it has been found impossible to obtain from Ireland the necessary information to enable Answers to these Questions to be given.

  Report of the Estates Commissioners and the Land Act, 1903.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: I beg to ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland whether, in view of the forthcoming debate in connection with the administration of the Lands Act, 1903, he will take steps to have the Report of the Estates Commissioners dealing with that Act immediately laid upon the Table of the House.
  MR. ATKINSON: Every possible effort is being made to expedite the preparation of this Report.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: As the right hon. Gentleman is aware, the first Vote to be discussed on Monday is the Land Commission Vote, and on the following day there is to be a debate on almost the same subject, and we cannot discuss these matters properly without information.
  MR. ATKINSON: I will do my best to hasten its presentation.

  Caldbeck Estate, Queen's County.
  MR. DELANY: I beg to ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland whether he can now state what course the Estates Commissioners propose to adopt with reference to the contemplated sale of the Caldbeck Estate, Ballacolla, Queen's County, in view of the fact that the landlord and his agent have parcelled out 241 acres of untenanted land amongst a few business men, large graziers, and the bailiff of the estate, to the prejudice of thirty-four small occupiers on this and neighbouring estates whose holdings require enlargement.
  MR. ATKINSON: The inspector's report on this subject has not yet been received by the Estates Commissioners.

  Ireland—Teachers in Bilingual Schools.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in case of schools where a bilingual programme is adopted and approved of, arrangements will be made that inspectors competent to examine children orally in Irish will be sent to examine and report on the progress and proficiency of the pupils; and whether teachers of such schools will be eligible for promotion to the highest grade.
  MR. ATKINSON: Schools in which the bilingual programme is adopted with the approval of the Commissioners will be inspected from time to time by the inspectors competent to judge of the progress made by the pupils The teachers of such schools will be eligible for promotion to the highest grade under the usual conditions prescribed in the rules.

  Kerry County Council and Mr. Cyril Browne.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the unanimous resolution of the Kerry County Council, at a special meeting on December 28th, condemning the partisan manner in which Mr. Cyril Browne referred to the officials of the Kerry County Council; and, if so, having regard to his partisan reports, the injury

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  he tried to inflict on the ratepayers, and the dissatisfaction he has given to public men in the county, this officer will be still retained in the public service.
  MR. ATKINSON: The Local Government Board have received the resolution referred to. They consider that then is no ground whatever for the accusation contained in it. The auditor in his report pointed out, as the fact was, that the accounts of the county council were in some respects kept in a slovenly and inaccurate manner and the bonds and other documents improperly filled up. This, though true, is styled in the Question "partisan" conduct. The Local Government Board consider that the auditor faithfully and fearlessly discharged his duty, and they will continue to avail themselves of his valuable services.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will explain why the auditor, Mr. Cyril Browne, who recently audited the accounts of the Kerry County Council did not include his objection to the manner in which the accounts are kept or to the way in which the public moneys are apportioned in the accounts or estimates in his report to the county council instead of making a private report to the Local Government Board as to the manner in which the purchase price of the Limerick and Kerry Railway was apportioned in accounts and estimates of the Kerry County Council.
  MR. ATKINSON: The auditor's report to the county council contains all the criticism which he found it necessary to make on the items in the account before him. His confidential communication to his superiors merely had reference to the manner in which he should examine into this exceptional matter.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that, in connection with the printing contract of the Kerry County Council, the auditor, Mr. Cyril R. Browne, was made aware that an action was pending in the superior Courts in connection with this contract; and, if so, will he explain why this auditor issued a separate report
  206
  on this matter a month in advance of his general report, and directed that a copy be at once given to the plaintiff, so that it might reach him in time for the trial; whether he is aware that, when evidence was tendered by the county secretary, showing the unsatisfactory manner in which this contractor had discharged former printing contracts, the auditor failed to take down this evidence or include it in his report, and to make any reference in his report to the affidavit of the county secretary showing the reductions in the cost of printing and advertising in the different boards of the county by the competition recently introduced; whether the auditor submitted this evidence to the Local Government Board; and, if so, what action, if any, they will take; and whether the auditor in disputing the contention of the county council that printing is not a public work has been authorised to do so by the Local Government Board.
  MR. ATKINSON: The facts are not accurately stated in the Question. The contract before the auditor was for the printing for the year 1903–4. That which was the subject matter of litigation was for the succeeding year 1904–5. The auditor did not issue any separate report on the contract before him. Application was made to him under the 12th Section of the Local Government Act 0f 1871, and 15th Section of the Act of 1902, to annul the contract and surcharge all the payments made thereunder, on the ground that the lowest tender had not been accepted and that the county council in accepting it had acted mala fide. The auditor decided in favour of the county council, holding that their conduct was not mala fide. He gave that decision in writing as he was bound to do under statute. The objector was entitled to be made aware of his decision and hence the auditor communicated with him. The final payment under the contract for 1903–4 did not come before the auditor at all. That will be included in the accounts to be submitted for the next audit, when the evidence referred to will become pertinent, and if offered will, if legal, be received and considered. Until the next audit the Local Government Board have no power to interfere in the matter. The auditor is bound to determine questions of law

  207
  raised before him, independently, according to the best of his ability and without communication with his superiors, who sit as a Court of Appeal on his decision.
  MR. FLAVIN: Was not the auditor's report used by the plaintiff as evidence in an action which arose out of the matter?
  [No Answer was returned.]

  Irish National School Teachers' Increments.
  MR. JOHN CAMPBELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state what degree of proficiency is necessary in Irish national schools to entitle a teacher to an increment within the second division of first grade, and not obtaining promotion to the first division of first grade; and how many teachers whose records were three "goods" for the three preceding years have got such increments since the introduction of the new rules.
  MR. ATKINSON: In the case of teachers in the second division of first grade awards of continued good service salary are made triennially to the teachers of schools with an average attendance of not less than fifty pupils, when the work done in the school shows merit, and the general condition of the school is satisfactory. The Commissioners form their judgment of the merit of the work and of the condition of the school from the reports of their inspectors and the official records. The Return asked for cannot be furnished, as three good reports, though forming an important element in the circumstances for consideration in connection with the award of increments, would not necessarily secure such award.

  Rent Appeals in County Clare—Scanlon's Case.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Edward Scanlon and his son Michael, of Laccaroe, Tulla, county Clare, applied to the Land Commission, sitting at Ennis in December, 1902, to have a fair rent fixed; that the Scanlons lodged appeals against the rent fixed;
  208
  whether he can say if this appeal is listed for hearing by the Land Commission about to sit at Ennis on the 21st instant; and, if not, can he say what has become of them; and, if it should be found that their absence from the list is due to any mistake on the part of the Land Commission, will he see that the tenants concerned are not put to any further delay and loss by directing that their appeal shall be heard at the next sitting of the Commission.
  MR. ATKINSON: Two applications to fix fair rents in respect of portion of the lands of Lecarrow, in which Edmond Scanlan is described as tenant, and Daniel O'Connell as landlord, were received by the Land Commission, and subsequently listed for hearing before a Sub-Commission at Ennis on the 9th December, 1902. Orders were made fixing judicial rents in these cases on the 9th May, 1903. Applications to have these cases reheard do not appear to have been lodged on behalf of either party. The case of Michael Scanlon, tenant, cannot be traced.

  Marquess of Conyngham's Clare Estate.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will inquire if appeals lodged by two tenants on the Marquess of Conyngham's, county Clare, Estate, named Stephen Collins and Mary Landers, against rents fixed by the Sub-Commission, are listed for hearing at the coming sitting of the Land Commission, to be held at Ennis on the 21st instant; and, if not, can he explain why they are not on the list; and will he see that they are listed, so as not to put those tenants to the loss and inconvenience of further delay.
  MR. ATKINSON: In the case of Stephen Collins and Mary Landers, tenants, Marquess of Conyngham, landlord, in which judicial rents were fixed by the Sub-Commission, it does not appear that any notices have been lodged on behalf of the tenants to have the cases reheard before the Land Commission. The applications for a rehearing in these cases, which appear in the list of fair rent appeals to be heard at Ennis on the 2lst instant, arise out of the landlord's application for rehearing.

  Kinvara Harbour.
  MR. DUFFY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the County Council of Galway have as yet approved of the plans of the Board of Works for the improvement of Kinvara Harbour; and, if so, what is the cause of the delay in having the works commenced at once.
  MR. ATKINSON: The county council have signified their approval of the plans, but before the conveyance of the harbour from the present owner can be accepted it is necessary that the county council should obtain evidence of title, and negotiations to this end are proceeding. It is hoped that the matter may shortly be satisfactorily arranged.
  MR. DUFFY: In view of the fact that money is available and that great distress exists in the district, will the right hon. Gentleman make strong representations to the Government in favour of the work being put in hand at once?
  [The Answer was inaudible.]

  Civil Service Clerks in the Royal Irish Constabulary Office.
  MR. SLOAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state the number of Civil Service clerks at present employed in the office of the Royal Irish Constabulary; has any reduction taken place since the force has been gradually reduced; and, if so, to what extent.
  MR. ATKINSON: The number of Civil Service clerks at present employed in the Royal Irish Constabulary Office is nineteen. No reduction has taken place in the number of clerks since the reduction of the Constabulary commenced, as there has been no reduction in the clerical work to be performed.

  Batiboys Police Barrack.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has received a petition signed by the chairman of petty sessions, who is a deputy-lieutenant of the county Wicklow, by all the magistrates and by ratepayers, irrespective of creed or politics, against closing the police barrack at
  210
  Batiboys, county Wicklow; and whether it is his intention to accede to the wishes of the inhabitants of the district in this matter.
  MR. ATKINSON: The petition in question has been received. No sufficient reason is shown in it for varying the decision to abolish the police station at Baltiboys. The district is peaceable, and the police requirements of the locality can be adequately met from the adjacent stations, of which there are three within a radius of four miles.

  Newport Police Doctor.
  DR. AMBROSE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Dr. Gill, of Westport, county Mayo, who until lately held the position of dispensary doctor and surgeon to the police at Newport, in the same county, was asked by the police authorities to resign the latter appointment on changing his residence to Westport; and can he state why he was compelled to give up the police appointment.
  MR. ATKINSON: I beg to refer the hon. Gentleman to the Answer which I gave to this Question yesterday.†
  DR. AMBROSE: But why was the appointment given to a doctor in West-port?
  MR. ATKINSON: I said yesterday that the last holder of the office took the post of dispensary doctor at Westport, necessitating his daily attendance there, and he could not therefore fulfil the duties of police surgeon.
  DR. AMBROSE: Surely it is as impossible for a doctor to do it who lives eighteen miles from the police barrack?

  Physical Deterioration Report.
  SIR JOHN GORST: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the Government will refer the Report of the Departmental Committee on Physical Deterioration to a Select Committee of the House of Commons.
  † See page 36.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester, E.): In answer to my right hon. friend I have to say that, so far as the Report to which he refers relates to public elementary schools, a Departmental Committee has been appointed to obtain precise information as to the extent of the evils complained of, and I think, in the meanwhile, the course he suggests would not be desirable. I should like to reserve judgment on that until the Departmental Committee has reported.
  SIR JOHN GORST: Has the Committee only just been appointed?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: It has not been appointed long. If the right hon. Gentleman will put down that Question it shall be answered.

  Reports of the Public Accounts Committee and of the Comptroller and Auditor-General on South African War Expenditures.
  DR. MACNAMARA: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he will give an early day for the discussion of the Report of the Public Accounts (1904) Committee and of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General on South African War Expenditures, issued last Friday.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The hon. Gentleman asks two Questions. One relates to the Public Accounts Committee of last year. On that I do not think I can at present add to what have already stated. I should certainly yield at once, not only willingly but gladly, to a generally expressed wish of the House that the Report should be taken on one of the days allotted to Supply, but I do not exactly exclude the idea of taking it on an unallotted day; but it is quite impossible for me, until I see my way much more plainly with regard to general business, to give any pledge on the subject. With regard to the second half of the Question, in my opinion this matter of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General is of a very serious character and requires to be thoroughly sifted. What the best method of sifting it is I do not at present say. The very last thing I desire is that the House
  212
  should be excluded from any legitimate opportunity of probing the matter to the bottom.
  MR. BLAKE: Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to expedite the setting up of the Public Accounts Committee, to which reference has been made from the Treasury Bench as the proper tribunal to deal with this Report?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I do not think that properly falls within the functions of the Executive Government. In so far as I properly and legitimately can, I will do everything to meet the views of hon. Gentlemen.
  MR. BLAKE: I would call the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the fact that the Patronage Secretary to the Treasury has had a notice on the Paper for some time for the setting up of that Committee.
  DR. MACNAMARA: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the fact that the Public Accounts Committee on Army Appropriation did not report last year until after the House had risen. Will he therefore expedite the setting up of the Committee?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am afraid I am not fully informed of all the technicalities of the matter, but I will do all I can.

  Alien Immigration.
  SIR HARRY SAMUEL: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if he is now in a position to inform the House when the Bill for the restriction of alien immigration will be introduced.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am afraid I cannot name a day for the introduction of the Bill for the restriction af alien immigration, but I hope it will not be a late one.

  Juvenile Smokers.
  *COLONEL LEGGE: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether his attention has been called to the number of petitions presented to this House with

  213
  regard to juvenile smoking; and whether e will consider the advisability of introducing legislation on the subject. May I explain that when I put down the Question was not aware that the hon. Member or North Camberwell was introducing Bill on the subject. Perhaps, therefore, the right hon. Gentleman will only consider it necessary to reply to the first part of my Question.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: My attention has been called to the petitions on the subject. I do not know that I can with advantage add to that bald statement of act.
  *MR. THEODORE TAYLOR: Will the right hon. Gentleman give facilities for the discussion of my hon. friend's Bill. As it only deals, with juvenile smoking there is probably general agreement in its favour.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I do not think I can promise facilities for a private Bill, out if the principle is generally accepted, there should be little difficulty in passing it.
  It being 2.55, the SPEAKER proceeded to interrupt Questions.

  South African War Contracts.
  DR. MACNAMARA: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War an urgent Question, of which I have given him private notice, arising out of an Answer which he gave yesterday, viz., whether he will state who were the contractors who supplied 1,350,816 tins of jam for South Africa, each containing twelve ounces instead of sixteen ounces, as per contract?
  *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. ARNOLD-FORSTER, Belfast, W.): The Question I have had from the hon. Gentleman refers to another set of contracts. The hon. Member's Question asks for the names of the contractors who supplied the emergency rations, and the meat and vegetable rations. Is that the hon. Member's present Question?
  DR. MACNAMARA: No, Sir. What I am asking is for the information promised yesterday.
  *MR. SPEAKER: A Question on the Paper, not yet reached, cannot be answered. I understood the hon. Member was asking a Question which was important, in view of the Army Estimates coming on, and of some pledge that an Answer should be given to-day.
  *MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: I did undertake to give an Answer to-day. I saw the hon. Member this morning, and I understood that he desired me to anticipate the Question on the Paper. I will give him this Answer now, and the other Answer the moment the Question on the Paper comes before the House.
  DR. MACNAMARA: I now ask for a fulfilment of the pledge which the right hon. Gentleman gave, viz., that he would state the names of the contractors in respect of the jam supplied.
  *MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: As a matter of fact, we made no contracts for jam. I believe that they were made in Australia. I did understand the hon. Member to ask me for the names of the contractors mentioned in his Question on the Paper to-day, and I have the names in my hand, and I will give them to the hon. Member.
  DR. MACNAMARA: Well, I will take them.
  *MR. SPEAKER: I hardly follow what is going on. If the right hon. Gentleman is proceeding to ask at 3 o'clock a Question on the Paper which has not been reached, that will be out of order.
  DR. MACNAMARA: With great respect, let me explain that I am asking for the redemption of a pledge given here yesterday, that we should have the names of the contractors in respect to the supply of 1,350,816 tins of jam, which are alleged to have contained twelve ounces instead of sixteen.
  *MR. SPEAKER: That I understood was a Question different to the one on the Paper.
  *MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: Hon. Members know well enough that I have no desire not to answer any Question

  215
  that is asked. The hon. Member was good enough to see me this morning, and he told me that the Question he had put down in reply to my suggestion yesterday could not come on until Monday. I understood that was the Question on the Paper to-day, and I have been furnished with the particulars. We did not, as a matter of fact, give any orders with regard to the jam; but if the hon. Member desires to ask the Question down for Monday I shall be glad to answer.
  DR. MACNAMARA: The Question which I put now agrees substantially with that which I propose to ask on Monday.
  *MR. SPEAKER: If I had been aware that the Question the hon. Member was putting was already on the Paper for Monday I should not have allowed him to ask it. The subject cannot be pursued; it is five minutes to three o'clock.
  SIR JAMES WOODHOUSE: On a point of order, Sir, yesterday the Secretary of State for War promised to answer to-day my Question as to who were the contractors for the jam supplied to the Army in South Africa. I wish to ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to answer it now.
  *MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: It is not on the Paper.
  SIR JAMES WOODHOUSE: I did not put it on the Paper because the
  right hon. Gentleman promised to give me an Answer to-day.
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! This discussion cannot proceed.

NEW BILLS.
  AGED PENSIONERS BILL.
  "To provide Pensions for the Aged Deserving Poor," presented by Mr. Goulding; supported by Mr. Remnant, Mr. Griffith Boscawen, Mr. Claude Hay, Mr. Forde Ridley, and Mr. Bull; to be read a second time upon Friday, April 14th, and to be printed. [Bill 102.]
  HOME INDUSTRIES BILL.
  "To provide for the better Regulation of Home Industries," presented by Colonel Denny; supported by Mr. John Burns, Mr. Charles Douglas, Mr. Emmott, Mr. Fenwick, Sir Michael Shaw-Stewart, and Mr. John William Wilson; to be read a second time upon Thursday, April 13th and to be printed. [Bill 103.]

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (SUPPLY, ETC.).
  Motion made, and Question put, "That the proceedings on the adjourned debate on the Motion relative to Business of the House (Supply, etc.), do have precedence over the Business of Supply this day."—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
  The House divided:—Ayes, 271; Noes, 186. (Division List No. 54.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Campbell, Rt Hn J A (Glasgow)

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

  Campbell, J H M (Dublin Univ.)

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Bartley, Sir George C. T.

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Bathurat, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Arnold-Forster, Rt Hn Hugh O.

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Arrol, Sir William

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn J A (Wore.

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt Hn Sir H.

  Bigwood, James

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Bagot, Capt Josceline FitzRoy

  Bill, Charles

  Chapman, Edward

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Bingham, Lord

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Bond, Edward

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Balcarres, Lord

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Boulnois, Edmund

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Balfour, Rt Hn A. J. (Manch'r)

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Balfour, Capt. C. B (Hornsey)

  Brassey, Albert

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Balfour, Rt Hn G. W. (Leeds)

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch)

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Cross, Alexander(Glasgow)

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Randles, John S.

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Rankin Sir James

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Kenyon, Hon Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Reed, Sir Edw. James (Cardiff)

  Davenport, William Bromley

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt Hn. Col. W.

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham)

  Kerr, John

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Denny, Colonel

  Keswick, William

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Dewar, Sir T R (Tower Hamlets

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Renwick, George

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Ridley, S. Forde

  Dimsdale, Rt Hn. Sir Joseph C.

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Laurie, Lieut. -General

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E.

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Doughty, Sir George

  Lawrence, Wm F. (Liverpool)

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Lawson, Hn. H L W (Mile End)

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks N R)

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Dyke, Rt Hn. Sir William Hart

  Lee, Arthur H (Hants Fareham)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton.

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Samuel, Sir Harry S (Limehouse

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N S

  Sandys, Lieut-Col Thos. Myles

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J. (Manc'r

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Long, Col. Charles W (Evesham

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Finlay, Sir R B (Inv'rn'ss B'ghs)

  Lowe, Francis William

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Fison, Frederick William

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Lucas, Col. Francis(Lowestoft)

  Smith, Abel H (Hertford, East)

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Lucas, Reginald J (Portsmouth)

  Smith, H C (North'mb. Tyneside)

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Smith, Rt Hn J Parker (Lanarks)

  Forster, Henry William

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Foster, Philip S (Warwick, S. W.)

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Spear, John Ward

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk)

  Gardner, Ernest

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Stanley, Rt Hn. Lord (Lancs.)

  Garfit, William

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Stock, James Henry

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  Malcolm, Ian

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Stroyan, John

  Gordon, Hn J E (Elgin & Nairn)

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Gordon, Maj. Evans (T'rH'mlts)

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby

  Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H E (Wigt'n)

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfrieshire)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Gray, Ernest(West Ham)

  Milvain, Thomas

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Green, Walford D. (Wednesbury)

  Mitchell, William (Burnley)

  Tuff, Charles

  Greene, Sir E W (B'ry SEdm'nds)

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Greene, Henry D (Shrewsbury)

  Montagu, Hn. J Scott (Hants)

  Turnour, Viscount

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Vincent, Col Sir C E H(Sheffield)

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Hain, Edward

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Walrond, Rt Hn Sir William H.

  Halsey, Rt Hon. Thomas F.

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x)

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Hamilton, Marq. Of (L'nd'nderry)

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Welby, Lt. Col A C E(Taunton)

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Welby, Sir Charles G E(Notts.)

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley)

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Whiteley, H (Ashton undLyne)

  Heath, Sir James (Staffords, N W)

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Helder, Augustus

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Peel, Hn Wm Robert Wellesley

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Wilson-Todd, Sir W H (Yorks.)

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Percy, Earl

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Hope, J F (Sheffield, Brightside)

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Horner, Frederick William

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Wylie, Alexander

  Hoult, Joseph

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Pryce-Jones, Lt. -Col. Edward

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Purvis, Robert

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Hunt, Rowland

  Pym, C. Guy

  Viscount Valentia.

  Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.)

  Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

  218

  219

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Grey, Rt Hn. Sir E. (Berwick)

  Rea, Russell

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Reddy, M.

  Allen, Charles P.

  Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D.

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Ambrose, Robert

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Richards, Thomas (W Monm'th)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herb. Henry

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Higham, John Sharpe

  Robertson, Edmund(Dundee)

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Roche, John

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Benn, John Williams

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Rose, Charles Day

  Black, Alexander William

  Johnson, John

  Runciman, Walter

  Blake, Edward

  Joicey, Sir James

  Russell, T. W.

  Boland, John

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea)

  Samuel, Herbert L (Cleveland)

  Brigg, John

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Bright, Allan Heywood

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Shackleton, David James

  Brown, George M (Edinburgh)

  Kilbride, Denis

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Kitson, Sir James

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Bryce, R. Hon. James

  Labouchere, Henry

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Lambert, George

  Slack, John Bamford

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Lamont, Norman

  Smith, Samuel(Flint)

  Burns, John

  Langley, Batty

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Caldwell, James

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Spencer, Rt Hn C R (Northants)

  Cameron, Robert

  Leese, Sir Joseph F (Accrington)

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Campbell, John(Armagh, S.)

  Levy, Maurice

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Sullivan, Donal

  Cawley, Frederick

  Lloyd-George, David

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Lough, Thomas

  Tennant, Harold John

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Lundon, W.

  Thomas, Sir A (Glamorgan, E.)

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Tomkinson, James

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Toulmin, George

  Crean, Eugene

  M'Crae, George

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Cremer, William Randal

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Waldron, Laurence Ambrose

  Crombie, John William

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Wallace, Robert

  Crooks, William

  Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Mooney, John J.

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose)

  Wason, Eugene(Clackmannan)

  Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan)

  Moss, Samuel

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Delany, William

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Weir, James Galloway

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Murphy, John

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Doogan, P. C.

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Newnes, Sir George

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Duffy, William J.

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Norman, Henry

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Dunn, Sir William

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Edwards, Frank

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Wills, Sir Frederick (Bristol, N.)

  Ellice, Capt E C (S Andrw's Bghs)

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary, Mid)

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Emmott, Alfred

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

  Fenwick, Charles

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N)

  Young, Samuel

  Findlay, Alexander (Lanark, N E)

  O'Mara, James

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Parrott, William

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Partington, Oswald

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Herbert Gladstone and Mr.

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Causton.

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Grant, Corrie

  Priestley, Arthur

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (SUPPLY, ETC.).
  Motion made, and Question put, "That the proceedings on the adjourned debate
  220
  on the Motion relative to Business of the House (Supply, etc.) if under consideration at Twelve o'clock this night, be not interrupted under Standing Order (Sittings

  221
  of the House), and may be entered upon at any hour, though opposed."—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
  The House divided:—Ayes, 275; Noes, 189. (Division List No. 55.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham)

  Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.)

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Denny, Colonel

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tower Hamlets)

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph C.

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Disraeli, Conings by Ralph

  Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Arnold-Forster, Rt Hn Hugh O.

  Dixon-Hartland. Sir Fred Dixon

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W

  Arrol, Sir William

  Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E.

  Kerr, John

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Doughty, Sir George

  Keswick, William

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt Hn. Sir H.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitzroy

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Laurie, Lieut. -General

  Balcarres, Lord

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th)

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J (Manch'r)

  Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J (Manc'r)

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Lawson, Hn. H. L. W. (Mile End)

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds)

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks, N R)

  Balfour, Kenneth R (Christch.)

  Finlay, Sir R B (Inv'rn'ssB'ghs)

  Lee, Arthur H (Hants, Fareham)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

  Fison, Frederick William

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Bartley, Sir George C. T.

  Fitzroy, Hon Edward Algernon

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Forster, Henry William

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Foster, Philip S (Warwick, S. W.)

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Lowe, Francis William

  Bigwood, James

  Gardner, Ernest

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Bill, Charles

  Garfit, William

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Bingham, Lord

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Lucas, Reginald J (Portsmouth)

  Bond, Edward

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn)

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Gordon, Maj. Evans-(T'rH'ml'ts)

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Boulnois, Edmund

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Brassey, Albert

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Bull, William James

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Malcolm, Ian

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Campbell, Rt Hn J A (Glasgow)

  Green, Walford D (Wednesbury)

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ.)

  Greene, Sir E. W (B'rySEdm'nds)

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H.

  Greene, Henry D(Shrewsbury)

  Maxwell, Rt. Hn Sir H E (Wigt'n)

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire)

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire)

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hain, Edward

  Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G.

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Milvain, Thomas

  Chamberlain. Rt. Hn. J. A (Worc.)

  Hamilton. Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x)

  Mitchell, William (Burnley)

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Hamilton, Marq. Of (L'nd'nderry

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Chapman, Edward

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Montagu, Hon. J Scott (Hants.)

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Heath, Sir James (Staffords, N W)

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Helder, Augustus

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S)

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside)

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Horner, Frederick William

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Hoult, Joseph

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

  Peel, Hn. Wm Robert Wellesley

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Davenport, William Bromley

  Hunt, Rowland

  Percy, Earl

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Tuff, Charles

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Samuel, Sir Harry S (Limehouse)

  Turnour, Viscount

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Sandys, Lt. -Col. Thos. Myles

  Vincent, Col Sir C E H (Sheffield)

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Pryce-Jones, Lt. Col. Edward

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir Wiliam H

  Purvis, Robert

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Pym, C. Guy

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Randles, John S.

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Welby, Lt-Col A C E (Taunton)

  Rankin, Sir James

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.)

  Rasch, Sir Frederick Carne

  Smith, Abel H (Hertford, East)

  Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Smith, H C (North'mb. Tyneside)

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Reed, Sir Edw. James (Cardiff)

  Smith, Rt Hn J Parker (Lanarks)

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und Lyne

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  William's, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Spear, John Ward

  Willough by de Eresby, Lord

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk)

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Renwick, George

  Stanley, Rt Hn. Lord (Lancs.)

  Wilson-Todd, Sir W H (Yorks.)

  Ridley, S. Forde

  Stock, James Henry

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Stroyan, John

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Wylie, Alexander

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Tollemache, Henry James

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Viscount Valentia.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan)

  Labouchere, Henry

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Delany, William

  Lambert, George

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Lamont, Norman

  Allen, Charles P.

  Doogan, P. C.

  Langley, Batty

  Ambrose, Robert

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid(Cornwall)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Duffy, William J.

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Asquith, Rt Hn Herbert Henry

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Leese, Sir Joseph F (Accrington)

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Dunn, Sir William

  Levy, Maurice

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Edwards, Frank

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Ellice, Capt E C (S Andrw's B'ghs)

  Lloyd-George, David

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Lough, Thomas

  Benn, John Williams

  Emmott, Alfred

  Lundon, W.

  Black, Alexander William

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Blake, Edward

  Fenwick, Charles

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Boland, John

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Brigg, John

  Findlay, Alexander (Lanark, N.)

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Bright, Allan Heywood

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  M'Crae, George

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.)

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Mooney, John J.

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Grant, Corrie

  Morley, Rt. Hn John (Montrose)

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Grey, Rt Hn Sir E. (Berwick)

  Moss, Samuel

  Burns, John

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Gordon, Sir W. Brampton

  Murphy, John

  Caldwell, James

  Hayter, Rt Hn Sir Arthur D.

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Cameron, Robert

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Newnes, Sir George

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H.

  Nolan, Joseph(Louth, South)

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Henderson, Arthur(Durham)

  Norman, Henry

  Cawley, Frederick

  Higham, John Sharpe

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Horniman, Frederick John

  O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid)

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Johnson, John

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

  Joicey, Sir James

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Crean, Eugene

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea)

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Crombie, John William

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N)

  Crooks, William

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  O'Mara, James

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Kilbride, Denis

  Parrott, William

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Kitson, Sir James

  Partington, Oswald

  224

  225

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Weir, James Galloway

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Slack, John Bamford

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Priestley, Arthur

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Rea, Russell

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Scares, Ernest J.

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

  Reddy, M.

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C R (Northants)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Richards, Thomas (WMonm'th)

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Sullivan, Donal

  Wills, Arthur Walters (N. Dorset)

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Wilson, Fred. W (Norfolk, Mid.)

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Tennant, Harold John

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Roche, John

  Thomas, David Alfred (M'rthyr)

  Wood, James

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd)

  Rose, Charles Day

  Tomkinson, James

  Young, Samuel

  Runciman, Walter

  Toulmin, George

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Russell, T. W.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Waldron, Laurence Ambrose

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Wallace, Robert

  Herbert Gladstone and Mr.

  Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Causton.

  Seely, Maj. J E B (Isle of Wight)

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (SUPPLY, ETC.).
  Order read, for resuming adjourned debate on Question [15th March], "That, in order to comply with the Law, the proceedings necessary to dispose of any Supplementary Estimates and Vote A and Vote 1 of the Estimates for the Navy, and of the Ways and Means Resolutions consequential thereon, shall, if not previously disposed of, be brought to a conclusion in the manner hereinafter mentioned:—
  "At half-past Five of the clock on the 21st day of March next, the Chairman shall forthwith put every Question necessary to dispose of the Vote then under consideration, and shall then forthwith put the Question that the total amount of the outstanding Votes for the Civil Service Supplementary Estimates be granted for the services defined in those Estimates, and shall also forthwith put every other Question necessary to dispose of those Votes.
  "As soon as the Resolutions so disposed of are reported to the House, the House shall forthwith resolve itself into Committee of Ways and Means, and the Chairman shall forthwith put every Question necessary to dispose of any Resolutions proposed in that Committee
  "At Ten of the clock on the 23rd day of March next, the Speaker shall forthwith put every Question necessary to dispose of the Report of the Resolution then under consideration, and shall then
  226
  forthwith put the Question that the House doth agree with the Committee in all Resolutions reported in respect of the Civil Service Supplementary Estimates, and shall then put a like Question on the Resolution reported with respect to the Supplementary Estimates for the Army, and on the Resolutions reported with respect to Vote A and Vote 1 of the Estimates for the Navy.
  "On the consideration of the Report from the Committee of Ways and Means, the Speaker shall forthwith put the Question that the House do agree with the Committee in the Resolutions reported.
  "And that at half-past Eleven of the clock on the 27th day of March next the Speaker shall forthwith put any Question necessary to dispose of the Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill; and at Seven of the clock on the 30th day of March next the Speaker shall forthwith put every Question necessary to dispose of the Third Reading of that Bill.
  "And that the proceedings on going into Supply on the Army Estimates, and in Committee, and on Report, of Vote A and Vote 1 of those Estimates shall, if not previously disposed of, be brought to a conclusion in the following manner:—
  "At half-past Six of the clock on the 28th day of March next, the Speaker shall forthwith put every Question necessary to dispose of the Motion that the Speaker leave the Chair on going into Supply on the Army Estimates.
  "At half-past Six of the clock on the 29th day of March next, the Chairman shall forthwith put every Question necessary to dispose of Vote A and Vote 1 of the Army Estimates in Committee.
  "At Eleven of the clock on the 30th day of March next, the Speaker shall forth-with put every Question necessary to dispose of the Report of the Resolutions with respect to Vote A and Vote 1 of the Army Estimates.
  "Until the Business to which this Order relates is concluded the consideration of the Business of Supply at any Sitting at which Government "Business has precedence shall not be anticipated by a Motion for Adjournment, and no dilatory Motion shall be received on proceedings on that Business, and the Business shall not be interrupted under any Standing Order.
  "Until the Business to which this Order relates is concluded no Business other than Business of Supply shall be taken at any sitting at which Government Business has precedence."—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
  Question again proposed.
  MR. LOUGHsaid he rose to move the Amendment standing in his name upon the Paper, but he did not propose to move it in the exact form in which it appeared. He moved to leave out "comply with the law" in order to insert "expedite business." This Amendment really touched the foundation upon which the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister rested his argument for the extraordinary Resolution that the House was now considering. The words he proposed to delete appeared in the foreground of the Resolution, and in his speech the right hon. Gentleman had based his argument on the legal necessity for taking this step. He denied that there was any legal necessity in the sense the right hon. Gentleman stated it to the House. What was the law with regard to the voting of money by March 31st, upon which this Resolution was based? So far as the amounts required for the present year were concerned, the largest and most troublesome items of Supply,
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  the Supplemental Votes for the Army, were now through Committee after a discussion not too prolonged having regard to the amount of the Estimates. A great deal had been said about the Civil Service Supplementary Estimates, and from what had been said it might be thought they amounted to millions and were very troublesome to discuss, but as a matter of fact they were less than they had been for years. They had also been partly discussed, and, having regard to the debate that had already taken place, the Somaliland Vote would not have given much trouble, so that there was only £25,000 left to deal with. With regard to the amounts required for the present year, therefore, good progress had been made, and there was, so far as they were concerned, not the slightest necessity for this drastic process. What law with regard to the finances of the coming year compelled this drastic step to be taken before March 31st? It appeared that it was necessary that the Government should be put in funds on April 1st, and that if provision was not made by March 31st the Government would not be in funds. But there was nothing to show that the Government could not be put in funds by that time by the usual procedure under ordinary and normal conditions. If there had been mismanagement of the business of the House, it was quite easy to adopt a simple expedient such as a Vote on Account or some other expedient rather than the drastic procedure proposed by this Resolution.
  What had happened? The Army Votes were behind for the reason that everything connected with the Army was in the utmost confusion, but who was to blame for that? Not the Members of that House. They had no control whatever over the matter; there had been no obstruction or nasty questions. They had done everything in their power to expedite business. It was the Government who were in fault; they had kept back the Estimates to a late date, and because the Government had not fulfilled their duty this drastic remedy was said to be necessary to pass the Estimates. Even if some expedient was necessary, he submitted a much more simple one could be found than one which took away the liberties of this

  229
  House. The right hon. Gentleman had said the law made this procedure absolutely necessary, but he had not defined exactly what law it was that made this particular Resolution necessary. The law ought to be as strong as the Resolution was drastic, and it ought to be urgent. No such case had been made out on the previous day by the right hon. Gentleman. The right hon. Gentleman said the statute law, the law of tradition, and the law of policy made it necessary. So far as the statute law was concerned no case had been made out, and this proceeding was not justified by the law of tradition because in his speech the right hon. Gentleman admitted that none of his predecessors had adopted an expedient of this kind, which disposed at once of the law of tradition. The tradition of this House was that there should be complete freedom of speech so far as it was possible, and the Resolution of the right hon. Gentleman, instead of providing for that, swept away all the liberties of the House. The real reason for moving this Resolution was to provide a time-table for the right hon. Gentleman's supporters, so that for the next fourteen days they might eat their food in comfort and come down to take part in a division when required. The law of tradition was clearly against the right hon. Gentleman. What did he mean by the law of policy? Was it his own policy of keeping the Government in power? No doubt these shifts were necessary if the House acknowledged that law, but those who sat in opposition did not recognise that law, and therefore they must ask the right hon. Gentleman to justify his Resolution by the statute law alone. He begged to move.
  MAJOR SEELYsaid, in venturing to second the Amendment, he desired to proceed with the arguments he was submitting to the consideration of the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister on the previous evening. He was well aware that on the previous evening the right hon. Gentleman had stated that money voted for the Navy could be used for Army purposes, and money voted for the Army could be used for the Navy. In his opinion that was undoubtedly a wrong practice, and contrary not only to good government but to
  230
  the principles of that House; but, as the right hon. Gentleman had pointed out on the previous evening, it was consistent with long usage and had been specifically legalised by a special Act. But what were the terms of that Act? The transfer of money voted for the Navy to the Army was sanctioned by the Public Accounts and Charges Act of 1892, Section 2, paragraph 1, and it stated—
  "That every sum voted by Parliament may be applied towards making good the Supply so granted."
  He ventured to draw attention to those words because they had created a doubt not only in his mind but in the minds of persons better able to form an opinion than himself on this matter. It seemed to him that although it was legal to use Naval money for Army purposes, it was not legal under this Act to pay for "Army food" out of "naval pay." If that were true, he would ask the House to consider the position in which they would be placed if they passed this Resolution. By the Consolidated Fund Bill they were going to allocate to the Navy certain money, out of which they could pay the Army provided the Army had obtained a Vote authorising the Treasury to pay it. If his contention were correct, Navy pay could be devoted to Navy food or boots, but not to Army food or boots, so that if this Resolution was passed they would perfectly justified in paying the Army, but it would be grossly illegal to feed or clothe them. That being so, the Resolution must obviously be amended. If the Government accepted the view he had put forward, he submitted that the House could not, without stultifying itself, pass the Resolution as it stood. The case for the Amendment was absolutely overwhelming. If the Prime Minister contended that in spite of the paragraph in the Public Accounts and Charges Act, Navy pay could be used for Army food, all the more necessary was it to eliminate the words objected to, and so free the Army discussion on Vote 1 To take Vote 1 of the Army Estimates without proper discussion would be not only highly undesirable but grossly unconstitutional. The reason full discussion was particularly asked for on the present occasion was that a great change had been proposed in the Army—a change

  231
  which the Secretary of State himself had said might be compared with that of Mr. Cardwell. But what did Mr. Cardwell and his Government allow in the way of discussion? In that year the Army Estimates were introduced on February 16th, It was now March 16th, and the Army Estimates were still to come. After the Address in that year no less than ten days before March 31st were devoted to the discussion of Army Estimates.
  *MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member does not appear to be addressing himself to the Question before the House.
  MAJOR SEELYsaid he was trying to show that it had been the universal practice to allow the fullest discussion on the Army Estimates when great changes were proposed. If Mr. Cardwell gave ten full days to the Army Estimates, what was to be said of a Government who without any necessity in law introduced a Resolution curtailing the discussion on the Army to fewer hours than Mr. Cardwell gave days? The Prime Minister apparently refused to say whether the whole thing was illegal. But even if it was not illegal it was wholly unnecessary. If money allocated to the Navy could be used for any purpose in the Army, and if all money going to the Army could be allocated to any purpose, why was it necessary, in order to comply with the law, to take Vote 1? It was necessary to take Vote A in order to lay down the number of men, but Vote 1, on which general questions of policy were generally discussed, need not be taken. The Non-effective Votes for officers and men, amounting to over £3,000,000, would do just as well for the pay of the Army. Why, then, did the Government refuse to adopt a more reasonable procedure? The immemorial practice of the House Was to govern policy by means of Supply. Vote 1, always by far the largest Vote, amounted this year to over £9,000,000, and the House, when once they had passed that Vote, would have parted with more than one-third of their power. In reality, as Parliament was constituted, they would have parted with nearly the whole of their power. It was true the Prime Minister had promised to give an opportunity for full discussion on a subsequent date. He was grateful for
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  the concession, but it would not be the same thing as a discussion on Vote 1. In past years, notably in times of reform, the battle had always raged round Vote 1. If it was wholly unnecessary, in order to comply with the law, that the Government should closure Vote 1, and commit what was almost a Constitutional crime, why did they not frankly abandon the proposal and agree to take the Non-effective Votes? The Government were in this dilemma: either it was possible for the Treasury to allocate to any portion of the Army the money which the House granted to the Navy by the Consolidated Fund Bill—in which case it was unnecessary to take Vote 1, and the words must go—or, in the opinion of Treasury experts, the words would likewise have to go because the Government would be placed in an illegal position by the very fact of doing anything but paying the Army from March 31st onwards until they had passed a new Consolidated Fund Bill. The whole Motion had been conceived in haste, without due consideration of what it would do, or the effect it would have upon the Army Votes or the dignity of the House. He, therefore, appealed to the Prime Minister to reconsider the whole question with a view to finding a way out of the impasse in which they were undoubtedly involved.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In lines 1 and 2, to leave out the words 'comply with the Law,' and insert the words 'expedite business.'"—(Mr. Lough.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSONthought these words ought to go, because at the best they were surplusage and really did not mean anything at all. There was no law which compelled the House to do what the Prime Minister wished them to do, while at the worst the words pledged the House to approval of a practice of which it ought not to approve. He did not think the dilemma referred to by the hon. Member for the Isle of Wight existed, because he had no doubt at all as to the perfect legality of the course the Government proposed to take. The Public Accounts and Charges Act had this effect, that money granted

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  by the Consolidated Fund Act for the Army might, in certain circumstances, be appropriated to Navy purposes. The House seemed to have forgotten that for six weeks last year the Army and Navy were being paid for with money originally voted for Civil Service purposes. The dodge was to take a large Vote for the Civil Service, and the Government actually took twenty-three months Supply for that service. Because they could not get so much for the Army and Navy, and in order to avoid a second Consolidated Fund Bill, they paid the Army and Navy out of money voted for Civil Service purposes. Money sanctioned by vote of the House could only be paid by the Treasury after it formed part of the Consolidated Fund. That was the Question the Chancellor of the Exchequer was asked, and he said "Yes." But he was wrong. Once a grant had been made by the Consolidated Fund Act No.1, the whole of the fund thus created was available for any Vote of Supply carried on Report by the House. Therefore Army money might be applied to Civil Service purposes, because the money was thrown into one common pool, and it could be used for any Votes the House had granted either before or after the passing of the Act. The Public Accounts Committee had condemned this practice, and consequently the Secretary of State for War made a complete change in the form of the Supplementary Estimates to carry out the principle laid down by the Public Accounts Committee. Why should the Government ask the House to sanction this tossing of money about between one Vote and another?
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester, E.): Do you say it is wrong?
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: I do say it is wrong. As regarded the Army and Navy the Government admitted that it was wrong, and now, to suit the exigency of this particular moment, they were asking the House to commit itself to a new practice, which, although covered by the law, was never intended to be a recognised practice. The House never intended to give the Government this power, and he challenged the Prime
  234
  Minister to give them a single case in which the Government of the day had deliberately done what he was now proposing to do now. He challenged the right hon. Gentleman to produce a single instance in which a Government deliberately took money granted for one purpose and used it for a totally different purpose.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he thought it would be most convenient to the House if he dealt with this question at, once. He had listened to the speeches, and especially to the last speech, which had been delivered in favour of the Amendment with some surprise. If he rightly understood the principles laid down by the hon. Member for Dundee—which he could not believe had the enthusiastic sanction of hon. Members opposite—they had been violated, not by this Government alone, but by every Government. In this respect there was nothing suggested by the procedure of this year which was not in absolute harmony with our financial traditions. The Government did not want to change the principle of the financial practice or even to modify it. It was because they wanted to preserve it unmodified that this Resolution had become necessary. There was really no obscurity as to the course they were taking or the course which had been habitually taken by their predecessors in obedience to the law. The hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment admitted that, so far as the Supplementary Estimates were concerned, the law must take its course. Where, in the hon. Member's opinion, the law did not step in was in connection with the finance of the year to come. He did not accept that statement, but even if he did it would not justify the Amendment, because the word "law" had to come in in regard to the finance of the expiring year. If the House did not pass this Resolution, it would be absolutely impossible by any tolerable means to introduce the Consolidated Fund Bill on Thursday, March 23rd, and if they did not do that the Government would not be able to pass that Bill in time to fulfil their obligations. Therefore, on that account, it was necessary that the word "law" should stand.
  MR. LOUGH: Why is the 23rd necessary?
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid they had to bring in the Consolidated Fund Bill on the 23rd because they could not read the two stages of a money Bill on the same day. The 24th of March was a private Members' day, and on Monday, the 27th of March, they would take the Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill; on Tuesday, March 28th, the Committee stage of the same Bill; March 29th, Vote A and Vote 1 of the Army Estimates in Committee; and on Thursday, the 30th of March, they could take the Third Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill. He was aware that this date was so late that it would throw a strain upon the office which had to deal with the matter, and he hoped it would not be dragged in as a precedent. Therefore the word "law" was justified and appropriate and ought to be retained. He now came to what was, perhaps, more important, and that was the necessity of dealing in addition with the Supply included in and excluded by the Consolidated Fund Bill, that was to say, the question of Vote A and Vote 1 of the Army Estimates. The hon. Gentleman opposite seemed to think that never before this flagitious Government came into office was it usual to use money Voted in the Consolidated Fund Bill for the general purposes of any class which had not been voted. Of course, that was not the case. They must have means of getting money out of the till at the beginning of the next year before they got on with Supply, in order to carry on the work of the country. How was that money to be spent on the Army unless Vote A was passed? Therefore, they must have Vote A.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: It is only done in a dissolution session.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Yes, it is done in a dissolution session. Therefore, obviously, it is appropriate now. He was pleased to see that there was no quarrel as to the legality of the course the Government were pursuing. The Consolidated Fund Bill gave them the money, they put the money in the till, but they could not spend it on the ser-
  236
  vices until they got a Vote in Committee.
  MAJOR SEELY: Can you spend money voted for Navy pay on Army food?
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid they could not do so, but they could spend money voted by the Consolidated Fund Bill on the Army or the Navy if they got a Vote in Committee.
  MR. McKENNAsaid he agreed that they might spend the money out of the Consolidated Fund upon the Army Votes which had been voted, but he wished to point out that under this Resolution they would vote the Army pay but not any other Army Vote, and consequently, although they would be able to pay the Army they would not be able to feed and clothe them.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the hon. Gentleman must know that it was not only legal but necessary, and not only commonly done, but invariably done.
  MR. McKENNA: Never! Would the right hon. Gentleman allow him to explain what was commonly done under the Appropriation Act? When money had been included under the Consolidated Fund Act that money might be used for any other Vote in connection with the Army, but in this case the money had not been voted, and they could only use the money which had been voted.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the hon. Gentleman was quite wrong, and he would not get a single Gentleman on the front Opposition Bench to say that he was right. The money was put into a general till by the Consolidated Fund Act, and they could not put into that till more than a certain amount, the total amount, being determined by the Votes taken. When they had got the money in the till they could take it out for any purpose the House had authorised or voted in Supply.
  MR. McKENNA: We have not authorised it.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid they were going to authorise it by passing Votes A and 1. The hon. Gentleman opposite would not get a single authority in or out of the House to accept the view he had stated. Hon. Members seemed to hold that although money had been got by the Consolidated Fund Bill, and although money had been voted for Army purposes by Vote 1, they could not use it for any other purpose except Vote 1. That was an error. Not a single Gentleman on the Opposition side of the House who was acquainted with the financial business of the House would accept that view. He had endeavoured to deal with the Amendment, and he ventured to suggest that the House might now divide upon it.
  MR. McKENNAsaid he spoke with the greatest deference on this point, but he thought the right hon. Gentleman had fallen into a mistake. They included in the Consolidated Fund Act year by year Votes A and 1 of the Army Votes, and having got them in that Act they could then use the monies so supplied for purposes of the other Votes for the Army. It must be remembered that the money had first to be included in the Consolidated Fund Act. In this case the Army money was not included in the Consolidated Fund Act.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the Consolidated Fund Act did not appropriate at all. It was a perfectly neutral Act, and as long as they had got the money there, all they required was the right to take it out.
  MR. McKENNAsaid he was dealing with the Appropriation Act of 1874, which was renewed every year. Once the money had been included in the Consolidated Fund Act, for any service, that money might be used for any particular Vote. In this case Army Vote 1 had not been included in the Consolidated Fund Act, and the right hon. Gentleman had to go back on the Public Charges and Accounts Act of 1891. Under that Act he was enabled to use any money included in the Consolidated Fund Act for any purpose which had been voted, but the purpose must be voted. The Public Charges and Accounts Act was clear on that point.
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  What the right hon. Gentleman was now endeavouring to do was this: He wanted to throw the Appropriation Act and the Public Charges and Accounts Act into a hotch-potch, and to say that the money which was now being properly devoted to Army pay could be used for any other Vote. He was not justified in doing that. Having got his money for Army pay it could not be used for the purpose of any other Vote unless he got it through the Consolidated Fund Act. Army pay was not included in that Act. The right hon. Gentleman had said that there was no one on the front Opposition Bench who would challenge his interpretation of the law. He was perfectly certain that any right hon. Gentleman on his side of the House who gave attention to the matter would be bound to come to the same conclusion as he had come to, namely, that the First Lord of the Treasury, under the proposal which he now asked the House to carry, would be enabled to pay the Army, but not to feed and clothe it. That was the first point. His hon. friend had put the second point. Why not take other Votes which were not controversial? He was sure the right hon. Gentleman meant to deal fairly with the House. He had stated over and over again that he did not wish to avoid discussion on the Army, but was it equally true that those who advised him on behalf of the War Office were as anxious to have discussion as he was? He said he was going to give a day for the discussion of the Army. The right hon. Gentleman was now admittedly withdrawing from discussion by the Committee of the House Vote 1, and preventing the House from coming to a judgment in detail upon every point open to criticism in the new Army scheme as it arose in Committee. It was not sufficient to tell the House that a day would be given thereafter for a single debate. He asked the right hon. Gentleman, in dealing with the House now, either to drop the provision relating to the Army altogether, or if he still thought it necessary to take out Vote 1 and insert Votes 14 and 15.
  MR. ASQUITHsaid this was a very technical discussion, and, he thought, a very instructive one. He would like to say how it struck him.

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  The Prime Minister's Resolution was prefaced with the words, "In order to comply with the law." Strictly speaking, there was no law at all. There was nothing but usage that regulated this matter. The case as regarded the law was that they could not pay for any public service until they had a Vote in Supply. Then they had a Vote in Committee of Ways and Means, and then the Consolidated Fund Act, which authorised the issue out of the Consolidated Fund of the money originally voted in Committee of Supply. They could not pay away a halfpenny of public funds until that process had been gone through. It was perfectly true, as the First Lord of the Treasury had said, that in the first Consolidated Fund Act of the session there was no appropriation. All that Act did as regarded the coming year was to authorise the payment out of the Consolidated Fund of a fixed amount, and, according to almost invariable practice, that amount included the Vote on account for the Civil Service, Vote 1 for the Navy, and Vote 1 (pay) for the Army. He did not believe there was a single instance in which the first Consolidated Fund Act of the session had not included a sum voted for the Army. In 1889 a Consolidated Fund Act was passed on March 29th, and a second Consolidated Fund Act was passed on April 1st. The reason was that the Army Vote had not been prepared in time for the Consolidated Fund Act, which had to be passed before March 31st, and so punctilious were the Conservative Government of that day that they actually went to the trouble of passing a second Consolidated Fund Act two days later in order to provide for the pay of the Army. The customary practice of Parliament in relation to this matter was not being followed, but was being violated.
  *MR. McCRAEsaid he would like to point out another difficulty the right hon. Gentleman would get into if he retained the words proposed to be omitted. What was really the practice and intention of Parliament with regard to the Consolidated Fund? They required first of all to get the Votes in Supply. These must be reported to the House. After that there was Committee of Ways and Means and then they got the Consolidated Fund
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  Act. If the right hon. Gentleman retained these words he must insert Votes A and 1 of the Army as well. The right hon. Gentleman was proposing to omit the Army Votes from two stages—the Ways and Means stage and the Consolidated Act. Sub-section 1 of Clause 2 of the Act of 1891, showed that the intention of Parliament was that the Army Vote, or whatever the purposes might be for which money was to be granted, must be in the Consolidated Fund Bill No. 1. That was not so in the present case, and even if he were incorrect in regard to the law of the matter he thought there could be no question as to the intention of Parliament. If the right hon. Gentleman wished to conform to the law, he must add to the Navy Estimates the Army Estimates. The safer course for the right hon. Gentleman would be to drop the words proposed to be left out.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he did not agree with the suggestion that the words "in order to comply with the law" were not important. After all, this was the sole justification the Prime Minister had put forward for the Resolution, It turned out that not only did this not enable him to comply with the law but he would actually be breaking the law in regard to the Army Estimates. It was well that this should be emphasised again. Every year up to the present, as he understood, Vote 1 of the Army Estimates had been included in the Consolidated Fund Bill, which was carried before March 31st. That enabled the Treasury to use money which had been allocated by the House of Commons for pay for any other purpose connected with the Army. The Government for the first time were departing from that precedent. They were not going to insert the Army Vote in the Consolidated Fund Bill. What was the situation? If Vote 1for the Army were not included the Government would be breaking the law if they used money for the Army. The Resolution was not to enable the Government to comply with the law, but to break it. If the Government expended a penny of the money voted under this Motion they would be breaking the law. It was perfectly clear that the Prime Minister had not adequately considered the matter, or

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  the difference between the Act of 1874 and the Public Accounts Act. The Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Financial Secretary to the Treasury ought to explain the matter. The House was entitled to an explanation. Last, session the Government used the Vote on Account for the Civil Service for the purposes of the Army. That was breaking the law. Now they posed under a different attitude. Last year they were a defaulting authority; this year they posed as law-abiding citizens. Their object this year was the same as last year; it was to avoid discussion on the Army. He would ask the Attorney-General whether, unless Vote 1 were included in the Consolidated Fund Bill, the Government would be entitled to use the money for the purposes of the Army.
  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir ROBKRT FINLAY, Inverness Burghs)said that there was no difficulty whatever about the matter. All the anxiety displayed by hon. Gentlemen proceeded from a mistaken idea that the Consolidated Fund Bill was an Appropriation Bill. The Consolidated Fund Bill was a Bill for granting certain sums for Supply; and the sums so granted might be applied to any purpose for which the House of Commons granted them. For the purpose of passing the Consolidated Fund Act it had always been usual to have Votes passed through all their stages, amounting in the aggregate to the sum given under the Act.
  *MR. McCRAEsaid that the whole point was whether the grant included Ways and Means.
  SIR ROBERT FINLAYsaid he thought the hon. Gentleman was confusing the matter, if he would allow him to say so. A certain sum was authorised for Supply generally but net for any particular heads of Supply. No one disputed that in order to comply with the law the Supplementary Estimates should be passed by March 31st; and that, according to immemorial practice, before the House passed the Consolidated Fund Bill they should get Votes through all their stages equal to the amount in the Bill. But the money was not appropriated
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  to any particular purpose at all; and might be applied to any purpose. All that was required for the purpose of making perfectly lawful the application of money to the Army was that Army Votes A and I should be passed. The amount in the Act was not appropriated in any way; and might be applied to the Civil Service, the Army, or the Navy. There would, of course, be an opportunity for the fullest discussion in regard to the Army as had been promised by the Prime Minister.
  MR. McKENNAasked why it was necessary to include any Army Vote at all before March 31st.
  SIR ROBERT FINLAYsaid the reason was that otherwise there would be no authority for the application to the Army of any part of the sum authorised by the Consolidated Fund Act. A Vote in the House formed the preamble to the Consolidated Fund Bill. He could not really accept the suggestion that the intention of the Government was to avoid discussion on the Army. It was nothing of the kind. The Prime Minister had promised an ample opportunity. The Consolidated Fund Bill was not an Appropriation Bill, and the money authorised by it could be applied to any Supply purpose.
  MR. BUCHANANsaid he thought that the Prime Minister now realised that it would be better if the words objected to were omitted. It had been acknowledged that the course adopted by the Government was most unusual and absolutely without precedent. It had been the invariable practice to include in the Consolidated Fund No.1 Bill an aggregate sum for the Civil Service, the Navy, end the Army; and this was the first attempt to depart from it. The present proposal was that after the Consolidated Fund Bill had been passed through all its stages the House should be asked to pass two most important Army Votes. That was a highly irregular proceeding. The Prime Minister stated that he did not wish to hinder or restrict the opportunities of hon. Gentlemen for the discussion of the Army Estimates; but according to

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  constitutional practice the best opportunity the House could have was on Vote 1. Why should they not agree to a short discussion on this Motion, and avoid the feeling of resentment that would be likely to arise from it; and include instead of Vote 1, Votes 14 and 15, which would give the Prime Minister something over £3,000,000 with which he could carry on the Army after April 1st. If that course were adopted it would meet with the general wishes of the House, would facilitate the progress of the Resolution, and enable the right hon. Gentleman to fulfil the promise he had made to the House, that it should not be deprived, in any degree, of an opportunity of fully discussing the new Army scheme.
  MR. CHURCHILLsaid he desired to support the Amendment, and also the request which his hon. friend had addressed to the Prime Minister. The subject was a very difficult one; and he was not surprised that the Government had got into difficulties in connection with it. It was perfectly clear that the Government were on the horns of a dilemma. The arguments which had been advanced from the Treasury Bench were mutally destructive. What were the two conflicting propositions? His hon. friend the Member for North Monmouthshire, in a singularly clear and lucid speech, showed what the law on the subject was. The Prime Minister in his speech showed what the practice was; and it was quite clear that the practice was at complete, or, at any rate, considerable variance, with the strict letter of the law. If that were so the main, in fact the sole, contention of the Prime Minister for this revolutionary procedure fell to the ground. The Prime Minister said that the law had not been broken, and no doubt he had a large array of legal opinion behind him in support of that contention. Well, assuming that the Prime Minister was correct, and that the law had not been broken. Why? Because when money was voted under the Consolidated Fund Bill it passed into the national till, and might be handed out according to the Votes apportioned in the House. It did not matter by what Vote money was passed
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  into the national till. It was not necessary to fill the till by means of Vote 1. The Government might take a smaller Vote, which, though it might not give the Government so much to go on with, would give sufficient, and it would preserve for the House of Commons a greater measure of control. Apart from that, however, Vote 1 was a more convenient Vote on which to discuss the Army scheme than the Vote for the salary of the Secretary of State. He suggested that the right hon. Gentleman should meet the Opposition by taking Votes 14 and 15 or Vote 7 instead of Vote 1, with which, in present circumstances, the House did not wish to part on account of its convenience as a basis for the general discussion they desired.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANsaid if the right hon. Gentleman would allow him to tender advice, which was absolutely disinterested, although the right hon. Gentleman might not think so, he would appeal to him to accede to the request of hon. Members interested in Army questions, and who were desirous not to part with Vote 1 until that full discussion which every hon. Member desired had taken place. It had been the habit for many years to take the discussion on general Army topics on Vote 1, although it was sometimes taken on the number of men, and, by agreement afterwards, if the debate was not exhausted, it might be arranged that there should be a discussion on some other Vote. But this was not a case of that kind. The matters to be dealt with on this occasion were so serious that the whole question could not be discussed with satisfaction to the House upon any Vote except Vote 1. There was something inspiriting in discussing a great question like the condition of the Army on Vote 1, which was the pay of the men of the Army. It made a more satisfactory, more real, impression upon the House than would be made if such a discussion was entered into with the knowledge that this Vote was passed and gone altogether from the control of the House. If this discussion were put upon some small Vote it would be reduced to the limits of a purely academic discussion which would not have the same reality that it would

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  have if it had taken place on Vote 1. this feeling was a reasonable one. What reason was there why Votes 14 and 15 should not be substituted for Vote 1, which could be left for the great battle to which they were all looking forward.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid they were all glad to see the right hon. Gentleman back. His appeal did not appear to be relevant to the Amendment before the House, which challenged the accuracy of the Government's view of the law. If the House would consent to part with that Amendment, the Government would discuss the other point as to the way in which money was to be obtained for the Army. He did not wish to throw out hopes that he would yield on that point, which he had not had time to consider.
  MR. WHITLEYsubmitted that what the Prime Minister had said was a complete justification for the Amendment, for he had promised further consideration as to whether it was necessary in order to comply with the law that Vote 1 should be taken.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he was perfectly certain it was not necessary in order to comply with the law that Vote 1 should be taken. The general object of the Resolution was to enable the law to be carried out, and that was the purpose expressed in the words to which objection was taken.
  MR. WHITLEYsuggested that the words "comply with the law" governed each and every item of the succeeding clauses.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: No.
  MR. WHITLEY: The right hon. Gentleman now practically admits that the words are not strictly true.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: On the contrary, I have made two speeches to show that they are absolutely justified.
  MR. WHITLEYcontended that if the substitution of Votes 14 and 15 of the Army Estimates for Vote 1 in the Resolution would equally comply with the law, his hon. friend had proved his case and the words were unnecessary. Why did the right hon. Gentleman persist in wasting time by refusing to withdraw words which were incorrect and not essential to the Motion. The words were really a part of the right hon. Gentleman's introductory speech, and were inserted to put the Motion on the high plane of compliance with the law, whereas the debate had shown that it could claim no such justification. The Prime Minister had not been able to quote the law which required to be thus complied with, and yet he would not withdraw these words and allow the House to get to the really operative part of the Motion. The Attorney-General would doubtless agree that what he (the hon. Member) had said was quite correct.
  SIR ROBERT FINLAY: No, I do not.
  MR. WHITLEYasked whether the Attorney-General did not admit that the substitution of Votes 14 and 15 would meet the requirements without taking Vote 1. (After a pause)—The hon. and learned Gentleman did not deny it. It obviously followed that the words were pure surplusage, and he protested against the House being forced solemnly to register something not strictly true.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 242; Noes, 185. (Division List No. 56).

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Bagot, Capt. J. FitzRoy

  Barry, Sir F. T. (Windsor)

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Bartley, Sir George C. T.

  Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Balcarres, Lord

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Arnold-Forster, Rt Hn. H. O.

  Balfour,Rt Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Arrol, Sir William

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

  Bigwood, James

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.)

  Bill, Charles

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon.Sir H.

  Banbury, Sir F. George

  Bingham, Lord

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Bond, Edward

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th

  Percy, Earl

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Boulnois, Edmund

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Heath, ArthurHoward (Hanley

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Heath, Sir J. (Staffords. N. W.)

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Campbell, Rt Hn. J. A. (Glasgow

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Purvis, Robert

  Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ.

  Helder, Augustus

  Pym, C. Guy

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.)

  Randles, John S.

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Rankin, Sir James

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Rasch, Sir Frederick Carne

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hobhouse, Rt Hn H. (Somers't, E

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A. (Worc.

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Chapman, Edward

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Horner, Frederick William

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Hoult, Joseph

  Renwick, George

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Hozier.Hon. JamesHenry Cecil

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Cook, Sir Frederick-Lucas

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Corbett, T. L. (Down,

  Hunt, Rowland

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.

  Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.)

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt Hon. Col. W.

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Kerr, John

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Samuel, Sir H. S. (Limehouse

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Lambton, Hon. Fredk. Wm.

  Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Davenport, William Bromley

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Denny, Colonel

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th)

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Dimsdale, Rt Hon. Sir Joaeph C.

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Lawson, Hn H. L. W, (Mile End.

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford,East)

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks. N. R)

  Smith, Rt Hn J. Parker (Lanarks

  Doughty, Sir George

  Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham)

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Douglas, Rt Hon. A. Akers

  Lees, Sir E. (Birkenhead)

  Spear, John Ward

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Stanley, Rt Hon. Lord (Lancs.)

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Stock, James Henry

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Ferguson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Lowe, Francis William

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Finch, Rt Hon. George H.

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Finlay, Sir R. B. (Inv'rn'ssB'ghs)

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lucas, R. J. (Portsmouth)

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Fison, Frederick William

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Fitz Gerald, Sir Robert Penrose

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Tuff, Charles

  Fitzroy, Hon. E. Algernon

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H (Sheffield

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Forster, Henry William

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Walrond, Rt Hn. Sir Wm. H.

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Malcolm, Ian

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Gardner, Ernest

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Garfit, William

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H. E. (Wigt'n)

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.)

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriesshire

  Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn)

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Wharton, Rt Hon. John Lloyd

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets

  Milner, Rt Hon. Sir Frederick G.

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-

  Milvain, Thomas

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Gorst, Rt Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Mitchell, William (Burnley)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Goschen, Hon. G. Joachim

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H. (Yorks.)

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Wortley, Rt Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Green, Walford D. (Wednesbury

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Wylie, Alexander

  Hain, Edward

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—SIR

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Midd'x

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nderry

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Viscount Valentia.

  248

  249

  NOES.

  Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Allen, Charles P.

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Harwood, George

  Priestley, Arthur

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Hayter, Rt Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Rea, Russell

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Reddy, M.

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Hemphill, Rt Hon. Charles H.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Beaumont, Wentworth, C. B.

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Benn, John Williams

  Higham, John Sharpe

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Black, Alexander William

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Boland, John

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Roche, John

  Brigg, John

  Johnson, John

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Bright, Allan Heywood

  Joicey, Sir James

  Rose, Charles Day

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea)

  Runciman, Walter

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Russell, T. W.

  Bryce, Rt Hon. James

  Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Shackleton, David James

  Burns, John

  Kilbride, Denis

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Kitson, Sir James

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Caldwell, James

  Labouchere, Henry

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Cameron, Robert

  Lambert, George

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Lamont, Norman

  Slack, John Bamford

  Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

  Langley, Batty

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Cawley, Frederick

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R. (Northants

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Levy, Maurice

  Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Lloyd-George, David

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Lundon, W.

  Sullivan, Donal

  Crean, Eugene

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Crombie, John William

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Thomas, D. A. (Methyr)

  Crooks, William

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W.R.)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  M'Crae, George

  Tomkinson, James

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  M'Kean, John

  Toulmin, George

  Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Delany, William

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

  Waldron, Laurence Ambrose

  Dilke, Rt Hon. Sir Charles

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Wallace, Robert

  Doogan, P. C.

  Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Mooney, John J.

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Duffy, William J.

  Morley, Rt Hon. J. (Montrose)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Moss, Samuel

  Weir, James Galloway

  Dunn, Sir William

  Murphy, John

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Edwards, Frank

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Ellice, Capt E C (S.Andrw'sBghs

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Whiteley, G. (York, W. R.)

  Ellis, J. Edward (Notts.)

  Norman, Henry

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Emmott, Alfred

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Wills, Arthur W. (N. Dorset)

  Fenwick, Charles

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Findlay, Alex. (Lanark, N. E.)

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Wood, James

  Fowler, Rt. Hn. Sir Henry

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf'd

  Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.

  O'Kelly, Conor, (Mayo, N.)

  Young, Samuel

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  O'Kelly, J. (Roscommon, N.)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Gladstone, Rt Hn. Herbert John

  O'Malley, William

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  O'Mara, James

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick

  Parrott, William

  Lough and Major Seely.

  Griffith, Ellis, J.

  Partington, Oswald

  MR. DALZIELsaid it had been made perfectly clear that this Resolution had been rushed forward by the Government and an effort was being made to pass it through the House
  250
  without that care which they might reasonably expect from the Government when they were setting up a precedent for the future. One thing was clear, and it was that the Resolution

  251
  as it stood would allow the Government to introduce any number of additional Supplementary Estimates besides those already presented to the House. Was that the intention of the Government. Did they want power to introduce any Supplementary Estimates about which the House had heard nothing, and which might cover one of the most important points of policy at the present time? If that were so, it was the duty of the Opposition to oppose the Resolution to the utmost of their power. This proposal would give the Government power to deal with what might be unpopular questions to them, but questions which ought to be brought before the House at the proper time and in a proper way. His Amendment limited the operation of the Resolution to the Supplementary Estimates now before the House. If that was the intention of the Government then they could have no objection to the Amendment. He thought they ought to strongly protest against the continuous practice of bringing forward these Estimates. The fact that Supplementary Estimates were brought forward at all was due to want of foresight, miscalculations, and blunders in the policy of the Government. The most important were two gigantic blunders, one in regard to the expenses in the Whitaker Wright case, which was a miscalculation on the part of the Law Officers of the Crown; and the other was the compensation paid to Adolph Beck. The Amendment he proposed was a narrow one, and simply raised the question of what might be presented to the House, and he hoped the Government would accept it.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In line 2, to leave out the word 'any,' in order to insert the word 'the.'"— (Mr. Dalziel.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'any' stand part of the Question."
  SIR ROBERT FINLAYhoped the House would not accept this Amendment. It was not necessary to occupy time in discussing it. The hon. Gentleman had asked whether there would be any other Supplementary Estimates beyond those already before the House. He should say that it was almost inconceivable that there would be.
  252
  The Resolution stated that in order to comply with the law it was necessary that the Supplementary Estimates should be disposed of before March 31st.
  MR. WHITLEYsaid he was surprised that the hon. and learned Gentleman could not accept the Amendment, for he had admitted that under the words as they stood it would be possible to introduce a new Supplementary Estimate for, say, £500,000 on the day when the guillotine was to fall, and to pass it without a single word of discussion. The statement of the Attorney-General justified the Amendment. It was a revelation to find that the Government went so far as to claim power to introduce fresh Estimates which were not now within the purview of the House, and to rush them through under the powers conferred by this guillotine Resolution. This was a weapon which was going to be used again, and the statement that it was not probable that a new Estimate would be produced this year did not remove the objection to the proposal.
  MR. O'MARAsaid that he was inclined to believe after hearing the Attorney-General that the Government had two or three more Supplementary Estimates up their sleeve, which they meant to spring on the House. He did not think the House should be placed in a position which made it possible for Supplementary Estimates to be brought in and passed without any discussion, but that was the position in which it would be placed by this Resolution. There was now only a fortnight to run of the current financial year, and the Government ought now to know exactly what Supplementary Estimates were required to cover the expenditure of the year.
  *MR. HERBERT SAMUELsaid that there was a question of principle involved here which merited attention. The Attorney-General had said that if any further Supplementary Estimates were introduced they must be passed by 31st March. The object of the Amendment was to prevent any new Supplementary Estimates being introduced at all under the operation of the closure. The statement that it was almost inconceivable that the Government would introduce any fresh ones

  253
  was a weak argument for refusing to accept the Amendment. In order to protest against a precedent being set which would govern future cases he hoped the Amendment would be pressed.
  MR. CHURCHILLsaid this was a very extraordinary proposal. The Government must know what Supplementary Estimates they required. The First Lord of the Treasury might not know, but there (pointing to the Financial Secretary of the Treasury) was the Gentleman who knew. It was a remarkable thing that when they were discussing matters which came under the head of his Department he should be always absent. Why he was always absent he was at a loss to understand. Was it that he did not feel equal to giving a proper account of his Department? [Cries of "Oh,"] Well, what other reason could there be? The Prime Minister did not know what Estimates were to be brought forward. No one would expect him to know. He was engrossed in the labours
  of leading a great Party, and he presided over the deliberations of the National Defence Committee. Did the Prime Minister give a pledge that no new Supplementary Estimates would be introduced?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Certainly.
  MR. CHURCHILL: Then, would not the right hon. Gentleman accept the Amendment? Some hon. Members had doubts which the Attorney-General had been quite unable to remove. The learned Gentleman said it was "almost inconceivable" that any other Supplementary Estimate would be introduced. That left a very considerable door open. They were doing something now which a week ago they should have thought almost inconceivable.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 236; Noes, 181. (Division List No. 57.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Finlay,Sir R B.(Inv'rn'ssB'ghs)

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Chamberlain,RtHn.J.A.(Wore.

  Fison, Frederick William

  Arnold-Forster, Rt.Hn.HughO

  Chapman, Edward

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose

  Arrol, Sir William

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt.Hon.Sir H

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E.

  Forster, Henry William

  Bagot, Capt. Joseeline FitzRoy

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Foster,Philip S.(Warwick, S.W.

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Gardner, Ernest

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Garfit, William

  Balcarres, Lord

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim,S.

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Balfour.Rt.Hon A.J.(Manch'r.)

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Gordon,Hn.J.E. (Elgin&Nairn)

  Balfour, RtHnGerald W.(Leeds

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Gordon, Maj Evans T'r H'mlets

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-

  Barry, Sir Francis T.(Windsor)

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Bartley, Sir George C. T.

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Davenport, William Bromley

  Green, WalfordD.(Wednesbury

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Denny, Colonel

  Hain, Edward

  Bigwood, James

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Bill, Charles

  Dimsdale.Rt, Hon.Sir Joseph C.

  Halsey.Rt.Hon. Thomas F.

  Bingham, Lord

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Dixon-Hartland.Sir Fred Dixon

  Hamilton, RtHnLordG.(Midd'x

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Doughty, Sir George

  Hamilton,Marqof (L'nd'nderry

  Boulnois, Edmund

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Dyke, Rt.Hon.Sir William Hart

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Butcher, John George

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Campbell, Rt.Hn.J.A.(Glasgow

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley

  Campbell, J.H.M.(DublinUniv.

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Heath, Sir James (Staffords.,N.

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Fergusson, Rt.Hn.Sir J.Manc'r

  Helder, Augustus

  Henderson, Sir A.(Stafford, W.)

  Majendie, James A.H.

  Samuel, Sir Harry S. Limehouse

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Malcolm, Ian

  Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Marks, Hary Hananel

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Martin, Richard, Bidduplh

  Sinclair, Louis(Romford)

  Hobhouse, Rt Hn H(Somers'tE.

  Maxwell. Rt Hn Sir H. E (Wigt'n)

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Maxwell, W. J. H Dumfriesshire

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

  Horner, Frederick William

  Milner, Rt. Hon. Sir FrederickG

  Smith, Rt, Hn.J Parker(Lanarks

  Hoult, Joseph

  Milvain, Thomas

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Mitchell, William(Burnley)

  Spear, John Ward

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

  Hozier, Hon James Henry Cecil

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord(Lancs.

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Stock, James Henry

  Hunt, Rowland

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Hutton, John(Yorks. N.R.)

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Kenyon, Hon.Geo.T.(Denbigh)

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Kenyon-Slaney,Rt.Hon.Col.W.

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Kerr, John

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Tuff, Charles

  Law, Andrew Bonar(Glasgow)

  Percy, Earl

  Vincent. Col Sir C.E.H (Sheffield

  Lawrence,SirJoseph (Monm'th

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Walrond, Rt Hn. Sir William H.

  Lawson,Hn.H.L.W.(Mile End)

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Lawson,John Grant Yorks. NR

  Pym, C. Guy

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Lee ArthurH. Hants. Fareham

  Randles, John S.

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E Taunton

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Rankin, Sir James

  Welby, Sir Charles G E. (Notts.)

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Rasch, Sir Frederick Carne

  Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Ractliff, R. F.

  Wharton, Rt, Hon. John Lloyd

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Reid, James(Greenock)

  Whiteley, H.(Ashton und. Lyne

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

  Renwick, George

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Roberts, Samuel(Sheffield)

  Wilson, John(Glasgow)

  Lowe, Francis William

  Robertson, Herbert(Hackney)

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Lucas, Col. Francis(Lowestoft)

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Wylie, Alexander

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Rutherford, John(Lancashire)

  Maclver, David (Liverpool)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Viscount Valentia.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William(Cork, N.E.

  Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Allen, Charles P.

  Cawley, Frederick

  Fenwick, Charles

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Findlay, Alexander(L'n'rk, N.E

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Beaumont, Wentworth, C. B.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.

  Benn, John Williams

  Crean, Eugene

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Black, Alexander William

  Cremer, William Randal

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

  Crombie, John William

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  Brigg, John

  Crooks, William

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Bright, Allan Heywood

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E.(Berwick)

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh

  Delany, William

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Doogan, P. C.

  Harmsworth, R. Liecester

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Douglas, Charles M.(Lanark)

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Duffy, William J.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Burns, John

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Dunn, Sir William

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Caldwell, James

  Edwards, Frank

  Higham, John Sharpe

  Cameron, Robert

  Ellice, Capt E CS.A'dr'w'sB'ghs

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Campbell John (Armagh, S.)

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Hutton. Alfred E. (Morley)

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Emmott, Alfred

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  256

  257

  Johnson, John

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Joicey, Sir James

  Norman, Henry

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Jones, David Brynmor Swansea

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Jones, Leif, (Appleby)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (Northants

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary, Mid

  Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Kilbride, Denis

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

  Sullivan, Donal

  Kitson, Sir James

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Labouchere, Henry

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Tennant, Harold John

  Lambert, George

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Lamont, Norman

  O' Kelly, James (Roscommon, N

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Langley, Batty

  O'Malley, William

  Tomkinson, James

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  O'Mara, James

  Toulmin, George

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Parrott, William

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Partington, Oswald

  Wallace, Robert

  Levy, Maurice

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Lloyd-George, David

  Perks, Robert William

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Lough, Thomas

  Rea, Russell

  Weir, James Galloway

  Lundon, W.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  White, Patrick (Meath North)

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Roberts, John H. Denbighs.)

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  M'Crae, George

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  M'Kean, John

  Rose, Charles Day

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Runciman, Walter

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

  Russell, T. W.

  Wood, James

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd

  Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.)

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Young, Samuel

  Mooney' John J.

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Morley, Rt. Hon. John (Montrose

  Shackleton, David James

  Moss, Samuel

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Dalziel and Mr. J. H.

  Murphy, John

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Whitley.

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Slack, John Bamford

  *MR. SPEAKERcalled upon Mr. Black to move the Amendment standing n his name. To leave out "and Vote A and Vote 1 of the Estimates for the Navy."
  MR. CHURCHILLsaid he would make bold to move the Amendment on behalf of the hon. Member with the alteration that it read "and Vote 1 of the Estimates of the Navy. His reason for discriminating between Vote A and Vote 1 was that Vote A fixed the number of men in the Navy, and it was necessary for the Government to have that Vote. Vote 1 came under the agreement established by the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. McKenna), in regard to the Army, which had been pressed on the Leader of the House by the Leader of the Opposition. He would suggest that they should leave out Vote 1 and insert some other Navy Vote.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In line 3, to leave out the words 'and Vote I.'"—(Mr. Churchill.)
  Question proposed, "That the words 'and Vote 1' stand part of the Question."
  MR. DALZIELsaid he hoped that the Government would give an ordinary courtesy to this Amendment. The suggestion was of some importance, because it was necessary for further information to be given before power was granted by the House.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he could not suppose that the hon. Gentleman's proposal was to be taken seriously. If this Amendment were to be accepted the public service would seriously suffer.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 251; Noes, 178. (Division List No. 58.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Arrol, Sir William

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon Sir H.

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Fison, Frederick William

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Balcarres, Lord

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Malcolm, Ian

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Forster, Henry William

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Balfour,Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

  Foster, Pliilip S. (Warwick, S. W.

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W (Leeds

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Maxwell, Rt Hn. Sir H. E (Wigt'n

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Gardner, Ernest

  Maxwell, W. J. H (Dumfriesshire

  Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

  Garfit, William

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Bartley, Sir George C. T.

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  Milner, Rt, Hn. Sir Frederick G.

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Milvain, Thomas

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin&Nairn)

  Mitchell, William (Burnley)

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Gordon, MajEvans-(T'rH'mlets

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby

  Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants)

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Bigwood, James

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow

  Bill, Charles

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Bingham, Lord

  Green, Walford D. (Wednesbury

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Greene, Sir EW (B'ryS Edm'nds)

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Hain, Edward

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Boulnois, Edmund

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Mount, William Arthur

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thos. F.

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Bull, William James

  Hamilton, Rt. Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Mamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath

  Butcher, John George

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Campbell, J. H. M. (DublinUniv.

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley)

  Percy, Earl

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Heath, Sir James (StaffordsN. W

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Helder, Augustus

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Cecil Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A. (Worc.

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Purvis, Robert

  Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Pym, C. Guy

  Chapman, Edward

  Hobhouse, Rt Hn. H (Somers't, E

  Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

  Clive, Captain, Percy A.

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Randles, John S.

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside)

  Rankin, Sir James

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Horner, Frederick William

  Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Hoult, Joseph

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Howard, J. (Midd. Tottenham)

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Renwick, George

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Hunt, Rowland

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.)

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col. W.

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Kerr, John

  Round, Rt, Hon. James

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Davenport, W. Bromley

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Samuel, SirHarry S (Limehouse)

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Cbatham

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

  Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Denny, Colonel

  Lawrence, W. F. (Liverpool)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Lawson, Hn. H. L. W. (Mile End)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hon Sir Joseph C.

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.NR

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants. Fareham

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Doughty, Sir George

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Smith, Rt. Hn. J. Parker (Lanark

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Smith. Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Spear, John Ward

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.)

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Lowe, Francis William

  Stock, James Henry

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Fielden, Edward Brockleburst

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Finlay, Sir R B (Inv'rn'ssB'ghs)

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Thornton, Percy M

  260

  261

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.)

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Tuff, Charles

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H. (Sheffield)

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne)

  Wylie, Alexander

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir William H

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Willoughby, de Eresby, Lord

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E (Taunton)

  Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H. (Yorks)

  Viscount Valentia.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Allen, Charles P.

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Perks, Robert William

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Harwood, George

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Rea, Russell

  Atherlcy, (Jones, L.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Austin, Sir John

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Higham, John Sharpe

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Benn, John Williams

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Black, Alexander William

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Runciman, Walter

  Brigg, John

  Johnson, John

  Russell, T. W.

  bright, Allan Heywood

  Joicey, Sir James

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Jones, Lief (Appleby)

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight)

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Shackleton, David James

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Kilbride, Denis

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Kitson, Sir James

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Labouchere, Henry

  Slack, John Bamford

  Caldwell, James

  Lambert, George

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Cameron, Robert

  Lamont, Norman

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Campbell-Bannerman Sir H.

  Langley, Batty

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R. (Northants)

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

  Cawley, Frederick

  Leese, Sir Joseph F (Accrington)

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Levy, Maurice

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Sullivan, Donal

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Lloyd-George, David

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

  Lough, Thomas

  Tennant, Harold John

  Crean, Eugene

  Lundon, W.

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Crombie, John William

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Tillett, Louis John

  Crooks, William

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Tomkinson, James

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Toulmin, George

  Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan)

  M'Crae, George

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Delany William

  M'Kean, John

  Wallace, Robert

  Dilke, Rt. Hn. Sir Charles

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Duffy, William J.

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.)

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Dunn, Sir William

  Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose)

  Weir, James Galloway

  Edwards, Frank

  Moss, Samuel

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Ellice, Capt. E. C. (S Andrw'sB'gh)

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts)

  Murphy, John

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

  Emmott, Alfred

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone

  Norman, Henry

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Fenwiek, Charles

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Findlay, Alexander (Lanark, N E)

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary, Mid)

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Wood, James

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Hudd'rsf'd)

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow. W.)

  Young, Samuel

  Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.

  O'Connor, John (Kildare N.)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  O' Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  O' Mara, James

  Churchill and Mr. Dalziel.

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Parrott, William

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick)

  Partington, Oswald

  MR. WHITLEY MR. WHITLEY moved to leave out in line 5 all words after "disposed of" and to insert in their place, "not be interrupted under any Standing Order of the House." His object was to do away with the guillotine, and to substitute for it the ordinary methods employed by other Ministers who had experienced difficulty in getting through the business of the financial year, viz.:—by moving the suspension of the twelve o'clock rule. He ventured to assert that the First Lord of the Treasury had shown no case for the application of this new weapon, and he would suggest that they should try the old customs of the House before they trusted the First Lord of the Treasury or his successors with the weapon contained in the Motion. They were prepared to sacrifice their time and leisure in order to consider the business of the country, and if the Prime Minister refused that offer, it followed that the right hon. Gentleman's Resolution was designed with the utmost care to safeguard both the after-lunch siesta and the after-dinner siesta of his supporters. The House would agree that the suspension of the twelve o'clock rule would be amply sufficient to perform the work.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In line 5, to leave out from the word 'of,' to the end of the Question, in order to insert the words 'not be interrupted under any Standing Order of the House.'"—(Mr. Whitley.)
  Question proposed, "That the words to the word 'Five,' in line 6, stand part of the Question."
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the hon. Gentleman apparently desired to obtain a series of all-night sittings, and he had suggested, towards the end of his speech, that with a little tact the business could have been got through. He did not claim to have the powers of management attributed to him, but he was afraid that whatever powers of persuasion he possessed, however silvern might be his tongue, and even if he were a perfect Orpheus in bringing stocks and stones o follow his advice, he would fail to carry out the benevolent suggestion of the hon. Gentleman. The Amendment was recommended on the ground that it followed the old traditions of
  264
  the House. It did not. The old tradition was that whenever there was a difficulty with public business the first thing to be sacrificed was the rights of private Members; and before the Government could suspend the twelve o'clock rule now, they must take away the Tuesday and Wednesday evenings and the Fridays. That would be a bad precedent which he did not mean to follow. Even if the twelve o'clock rule were suspended, he did not think the measure would be sufficient to enable the law to be complied with.
  MR. GEORGE WHITELEYsaid the Amendment opened up a very large question, in fact the whole question of the Supply rules as they appeared upon the Paper. He, therefore, desired to join in the chorus of condemnation which had proceeded from the Liberal side of the House, a chorus which, when these rules were made public, would be taken up through the whole length and breadth of the land. This new suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman seemed to him to be a complete illustration of the old proverb, "bad workmen have a tendency to complain of their tools." He was not surprised at the action of the right hon. Gentleman. It was typical of his whole character in the Leadership of the House. The House, no doubt, had got into a difficulty; but how had they got into it? Why was it necessary to resort to this drastic procedure to carry the Estimates and obtain supplies before the end of March? There was no reason. He had sat in the House for some years, and they had all recognised the necessity of all-night sittings when impasses of this kind had arisen in the business of the House. The right hon. Gentleman, in his opinion, was not warranted in moving such a Resolution at the present time. The right hon. Gentleman should have given considerable notice; he should have disclosed his intentions and taken the House into his confidence, and have seen whether the House was not willing to grant him supplies. He should have tried the effect of one or two all-night sittings before resorting to such procedure as this. The right hon. Gentleman was driving the House in this matter, and he did not

  265
  think that the right hon. Gentleman or any other Leader of the House would find such methods effective. He hoped even now the right hon. Gentleman, on further consideration, would permit the House to revert to the old plan of all-night sittings.
  *MR. EUGENE WASONsaid he also desired to support the Amendment. He could assure the right hon. Gentleman that he was no fonder of all-night sittings than the right hon. Gentleman, but he thought it was very much better to have all-night sittings, if necessary, rather than to agree to this procedure. The House, no doubt, was in a difficulty, but the Prime Minister was responsible for it. If the advice given by his right hon. friend the Leader of the Opposition had been followed, and a Select Committee of the House had been formed to consider their rules and procedure, they would have got through this business in a much better way than under the new rules, which every old Member cordially detested. He should most certainly support the Amendment.
  MR. CHURCHILLreadily acknowledged that the Prime Minister was watching the debate with an attention the more noticeable because exceptionally unusual. All who had followed the course of the discussion would admit that in consequence of the right hon. Gentleman's presence they had made more rapid progress than they otherwise would have done, and there was no reason at all why the Prime Minister should underrate the advantage of that tact and management of which he had spoken in unnecessarily modest terms. But the right hon. Gentleman was under a misapprehension in thinking that the supporters of the Amendment desired to take away the rights of private Members. Nothing was further from their wishes, or, he ventured to say, from the wishes of the Prime Minister himself, inasmuch as there were three fiscal Resolutions down, and the right hon. Gentleman would not wish to do anything to prevent their being discussed, especially as resort to the previous Question was always open to him. The proposal of his hon. friend was that the House should sit up, and while he would not
  266
  prophesy that by half-a-dozen sittings until three or four o'clock they would dispose of the work before them, it was at all events a plan worth trying. They were not entitled to mutilate the procedure of the House of Commons for their own convenience. It might be that the present position of public business was so grave that exceptional and extraordinary measures were necessary, but they ought not to be ready on every occasion to get out of their difficulties by cutting a path through the rules of the House of Commons before they had tried the experiment of subjecting themselves to some little inconvenience and discomfort. The declaration of the Prime Minister as to the ability of his supporters to attend regularly through all-night sittings removed one of the principal objections to the Amendment, because it had been understood that the great difficulty was to get hon. Gentlemen opposite to attend. If the right hon. Gentleman had the confidence he professed, why did he not show it by adopting the Amendment? Many objections could be urged against all-night sittings, but the ancestors of present Members had not been afraid to subject themselves to considerable strain and exertion in the interests of public and free discussion. When Parliament was engaged in the prosecution of John Wilkes no fewer than twenty-three divisions were taken in one all-night sitting, and Mr. Burke, in his Memorials and Letters, made a special point of his pride at having sat up all night to oppose so iniquitous an Administration. It would be very uncomplimentary to attempt to draw any parallel between the Prime Minister and the Duke of Grafton, but it was the fact that the present Administration, like that of the Duke of Grafton, possessed a servile majority within the walls of Parliament, while destitute of the confidence of the country outside. He hoped the Amendment would be pressed to a division, because it would show that they would rather inflict upon the present temporary occupants of that House physical and mental exertion, and even suffering, than injure the great institution of which, for the time being, they were the humble and possibly unworthy Members.
  MR. RUNCIMANsaid that while the last thing his hon. friend desired was to interfere with the rights of private Members on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, the Amendment, as worded, appeared to apply to those days, and he suggested that it should be altered so as to read, "shall not be interrupted under Standing Order 1." As to the recent all-night sittings, he had sat through them all, and his recollections of them were far from unpleasant. In many cases, the discussions up to three o'clock in the morning were by no means bad; they went into great detail, the criticism was of a high order, and most important matters were dealt with long after midnight. He was not in general an advocate of late sittings, but the Government were in a serious difficulty as to procedure,
  from which the proper way of escape was, not to ride roughshod through the Standing Orders of the House, but to put Members to a certain amount of discomfort so that the necessary business might be got through. Physical discomfort was much less serious than the curbing of free discussion, and instead of embarking on elaborate machinery, which was detrimental to the best interests of the House, the right hon. Gentleman should ask the House to submit to a certain amount of hard work, if necessary, at uncomfortable hours.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 271; Noes, 183. (Division List No. 59.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Fitz Gerald, Sir Robert Penrose.

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Chamberlain Rt Hn. J. A (Worc.)

  Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton)

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Chapman, Edward

  Forster, Henry William

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Foster Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.)

  Arnold-Forster Rt. Hn Hugh O.

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Arrol, Sir William

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Gardner, Ernest

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  Aubrey-Fletcher, R. Hn. Sir H.

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn)

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets)

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Craig Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby.

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Balcarres, Lord

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.)

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Green, Walford D. (Wednesbury)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Greene, Sir E W (B'ryS. Edm'nds)

  Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

  Davenport, W. Bromley

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Davies Sir Horatio D. (Chatham)

  Hain, Edward

  Beach Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

  Denny, Colonel

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Dewar Sir T. R. (Tower Hamlets)

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph C.

  Hamilton Rt Hn Lord G. (Midd'x)

  Bigwood, James

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Hamilton. Marq. of (L'donderry)

  Bill, Charles

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Bingham, Lord

  Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E.

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Doughty, Sir George

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Boulnois, Edmund

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Heath Arthur Howard (Hanley)

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Heath Sir James (Staffords. N W)

  Brassey, Albert

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Helder, Augustus

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.)

  Bull, William James

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Butcher, John George

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Campbell Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow)

  Fergusson, R. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r)

  Hobhouse Rt Hn H. (Somers't, E)

  Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ.)

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Finch, Rt, Hon. George H.

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside)

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire)

  Finlay Sir R. B. (Inv'rn'ssB'ghs)

  Horner, Frederick William

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Hoult, Joseph

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Fison, Frederick William

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Howard, John (Kent, Faversham)

  Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W)

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

  Morgan David J. (Walthamstow)

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Hunt, Rowland

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.)

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford. East)

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Smith, Rt, Hn J. Parker (Lanarks)

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  Mount, William Arthur

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray

  Spear, John Ward

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

  Kerr, John

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk)

  Keswick, William

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lancs)

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Stock, James Henry

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Pease Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th)

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Lawson, Hn. H. L. W. (Mile End)

  Percy, Earl

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Lawson John Grant (Yorks. N. R)

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants. Fareham)

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Tuff, Charles

  Leveson-Gower, Fredk. N. S.

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Purvis, Robert

  Vincent Col. Sir C. E H (Sheffield)

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Pym, C. Guy

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Long, Col. Chas. W (Evesham

  Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Randles, John S.

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Lowe, Francis William

  Rankin, Sir James

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Rasch, Sir Frederick Carne

  Welby Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton)

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.)

  Lucas Reginald J. (Portsmouth)

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Renwick, George

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Ridley, S. Forde

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H. (Yorks.)

  Malcolm, Ian

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Maxwell, Rt Hn. Sir H. E (Wigt'n

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Wylie, Alexander

  Maxwell, W. J. H (Dumfriesshire

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Milner, R. Hn. Sir Frederick G

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Milvain, Thomas

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alex.

  Sir Alexander Acland-Hood

  Mitchell, William (Burnley)

  Samuel, Sir Harry S (Limehouse)

  and Viscount Valentia.

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Delany, William

  Allen, Charles P.

  Burns, John

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Caldwell, James

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Cameron, Robert

  Dunn, Sir William

  Austin, Sir John

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Edwards, Frank

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Ellice, Capt E C (S. Andrw'sBghs)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Cawley, Frederick

  Emmott, Alfred

  Bell, Richard

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Benn, John Williams

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidstone)

  Black, Alexander William

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Fenwick, Charles

  Brigg, John

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

  Findlay Alexander (Lanark, N E)

  Bright, Allan Heywood

  Crean, Eugene

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Cremer, William Randal

  Foster, Sir Walter (DerbyCo.)

  Brown George M. (Edinburgh)

  Crombie, John William

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Crooks, William

  Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.

  270

  271

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  M' Kenna, Reginald

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick. B.)

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.)

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick)

  Morley, Rt, Hn. John (Montrose)

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Moss, Samuel

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Murphy, John

  Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R. (Northants

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

  Harwood, George

  Newnes, Sir George

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Norman, Henry

  Sullivan, Donal

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Tennant, Harold John

  Higham, John Sharpe

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary, Mid

  Thomas. Sir A. J (Glamorgan, E.)

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Horniman, Frederick John

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Tillett, Louis John

  Button, Alfred E. (Morley)

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

  Tomkinson, James

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Toulmin, George

  Johnson, John

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Joicey, Sir James

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

  Wallace, Robert

  Jones David Brynmor (Swansea)

  O'Mara, James

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Parrott, William

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Partington, Oswald

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Weir, James Galloway

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Kilbride, Denis

  Perks, Robert William

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Kitson, Sir James

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Labouchere, Henry

  Rea, Russell

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Lambert, George

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Lament, Norman

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Langley, Batty

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Wood, James

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Woodhouse, Sir J T (Hudd'rsfi"d

  Levy, Maurice

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Young, Samuel

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Lough, Thomas

  Runciman, Walter

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Russell, T. W.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Mr. J. H. Whitley and Mr.

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Eugene Wason.

  M'Crae, George

  Seely, Maj J. E. B. (Isle of Wight)

  M'Kean, John

  Shackleton, David James

  Bill read a second time, and committed.

  MR. WHITLEY MR. WHITLEY moved to omit "five" in line 6, and insert "seven." He said the object was to give two hours longer discussion before the guillotine fell. They made the offer to the right hon. Gentleman, and they were willing to sacrifice something out of their dinner hour if he would meet them in this respect.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In line 6, to leave out the word 'Five,' in order to insert the word 'Seven.'"—(Mr. Whitley.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'Five' stand part of the Question."
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he was grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his offer. He believed that the proposal to stop discussion at half-past five would be more pleasing to the majority of the House. He did not know that much
  272
  would be gained by adopting the Amendment, and something would be lost.
  MR. WHITLEYsaid he had another Amendment on the Paper which was rather dependent on this. The proposal of the right hon. Gentleman was to put the Civil Service Estimates in one block instead of in their various classes. Was the right hon. Gentleman prepared to accept the subsequent Amendment which provided for giving the House the opportunity of voting on the Civil Service Estimates in classes?
  MR. CHURCHILLsaid it was perfectly obvious that the reason why the hon. Member who moved the Amendment and those who supported him wished to substitute "seven" for "five" was to take advantage of every

  273
  occasion during the passage of the Resolution of showing their detestation of the methods which it embodied. They were bound to take all recognised occasions of showing their entire dissent from the manner in which they had been treated. The right hon. Gentleman had not condescended to accept a single Amendment; and they might as well be arguing with stocks and stones. Even when the right hon. Gentleman was asked to substitute the word "the" for "any," and although he admitted it made no difference, he refused to accept the Amendment. If such a small concession would not affect the general proposal, and would, at the same time, conciliate hon. Gentlemen, he did not see why the right hon. Gentleman should refuse to accept it. If the right hon. Gentleman wished to obtain his Resolution without putting a greater strain on his followers why did he not make some offer or proposal which would make the Resolution a little more satisfactory. Surely the right hon. Gentleman was not such a tyrant as to refuse harmless concessions which would make his proposal more acceptable, or at least less objectionable.
  MR. JOHN O'CONNORsaid he regarded the Amendment as being of a very reasonable character, and was surprised that the Prime Minister did not advance any better reason against it than brute force. The right hon. Gentleman stated that half-past five o'clock would be more acceptable to the majority of the House. That was not a good reason to advance. The minority had always been regarded as possessing certain rights; but, apparently, in the opinion of the Prime Minister, they had no rights at all. Not only had the Prime Minister not accepted the Amendment, but he had not condescended to give any reason for rejecting it. He himself had some admiration for the Prime Minister, though not for all his methods, and he should be glad if the right hon. Gentleman would give some reason for refusing to accept a reasonable Amendment such as that before the House. Action of that kind was calculated to throw reasonable and moderate men like himself into the hands of Gentlemen who sometimes proposed un-
  274
  reasonable Amendments. He objected to be ruled by a majority; majorities did not always possess the best arguments; and indeed it used to be said that all the virtues were with minorities. He did not proceed as far as that himself; but he desired to protest against the manner in which the right hon. Gentleman had opposed the Amendment.
  MAJOR SEELYsaid that if common rumour were to be trusted the First Lord was prepared to make concessions in certain important particulars. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would say whether that was the case or not.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the arrangement which he was willing to accept, and which he had reason to believe would not be disagreeable to hon. Gentlemen opposite, was to allow Vote A to stand in the Resolution, and substitute for Vote 1 Vote 7, which related to provisions and forage. He had already promised the House a full opportunity to discuss the general Army policy of the Government immediately after the commencement of the new financial year, and he proposed to take that general discussion on the Vote for the salary of the Secretary of State for War. That Vote would, therefore, be put down as the first Order on Monday, April 3rd, but it would be part of the honourable understanding which he was suggesting to the House that the Committee stage and the Report stage should be taken in the course of that week, so as to be able to proceed with the other business during the following week without feeling financially handicapped. Vote 7 related to stores, provisions, and forage, and on that it would be possible to raise the important question brought to the notice of the House by the Auditor-General's Report. He did not think it would be desirable to raise it at that early stage, and if it was the wish of the House he would undertake to give a more fitting opportunity for its discussion later on. It must be understood that the South African Report would not come up then, but if hon. Members desired it they could have more time by passing that Vote through without discussion. He would put it down for the second Order of the Day. It would be understood that the South African question would come up separately and at a later stage.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANsaid there was another proposal that the Government would give two days instead of one next week for getting the Speaker out of the Chair on the Army Estimates. He also asked whether on the week beginning April 3rd. Vote 1 would be put down on the Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURreplied that if the House desired the discussion to extend over those four days he would provide for it, but it was a very exceptional demand to make on the time of the House, and he rather thought it would not be necessary to take the whole of those four days.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANasked whether it was to be understood that as the discussion on the South African stores question was not to be taken on Vote 7, it would not be deferred too long to the disappointment of the public interest in it.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURbelieved it was the general wish that the Public Accounts Committee should first deal with the matter. The Motion would be put down at once in order to give the earliest opportunity for its discussion.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANthought the right hon. Gentlemen must not understand that they accepted so broadly, as he put it, the idea that the matter of the South African stores was to be referred for further consideration to the Public Accounts Committee.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I do not make that a condition, but it would be convenient if it could be done.
  MR. WHITLEYsaid it would be undesirable to divide on the Amendment as the First Lord had met the chief objection with regard to Vote 1, but he thought the usual interval for dinner might be availed of for considering more fully the right hon. Gentleman's suggestions.
  And, it being half-past Seven of the clock, the debate stood adjourned until this Evening's Sitting.

EVENING SITTING.

  LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL. (BY ORDER).
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
  *CAPTAIN JESSELsaid he had put down the Motion which stood in his name upon the Paper as a protest against the manner in which the London County Council year after year introduced into Bills of this character most contentious matters. Nobody could object to the proposal to construct a bridge in Regent's Park, or to the application from the Borough of Battersea to build over ground now occupied by allotments, but when it came to a question of granting the London County Council power to alter two public Acts or to interfere with the Foods and Drugs Acts, which left the supervision of milk and so forth to the proper sanitary authority, and other contentious matters, it was in his opinion time that a stand was made. He further protested against the repeated attempts of the London County Council to introduce into a Bill of this character legislation which had been defeated either upstairs in Committee or in this House. It was sad to see the way in which ratepayers were obliged to pay on both sides, because on the one hand they were constituents of the opposing borough, and on the other of the London County Council. He ventured to think it would be to the advantage of the good government of London if the Government brought forward legislation which would prevent the introduction of contentious proposals into General Powers Bills, unless the London County Council had received the assent of a majority of three-quarters or two-thirds of the borough councils interested. He should have thought the County Council had quite enough to do. It had already taken upon itself the work of the late School Board.
  MR. JOHN BURNS: No, no! That was imposed upon us by this House. You voted for it.
  *CAPTAIN JESSELsaid the attitude adopted by every candidate for the London County Council at the last election showed that the London County Council were not reluctant to take over the powers placed upon them by Parliament. The amount of money spent by the London County Council in promoting and opposing Bills since the creation of that distinguished body was simply enormous. The question of expenditure was most material to hon. Gentlemen when they had regard to the constant increase of the rates. It was only the other day that they were informed by a most distinguished authority on the London County Council that the rates for the coming year would be very largely increased.
  MR. CROOKS: Ah! That is the voluntary schools.
  *CAPTAIN JESSELsaid no hon. Member would deny that the rates were constantly increasing. He should have thought it would have paid the London County Council to leave as much detail and power to the borough councils as possible instead of trying to deprive them of what powers they possessed, as they did on every occasion, or to supervise them and treat them like naughty children. He should have thought that that was the policy which would have commended itself to hon. Gentlemen opposite, who always advocated as wide an extension of powers as possible. By so doing they would educate the people up to their responsibilities. Complaint was made by the advocates of this Bill that the borough councils did not do their work properly. He should imagine that was the case all over the country, but it was not by coercion that they would be made to do their work properly; it would be by educating them up to their responsibilities in connection with a form of local government which had no parallel in any other nation of the world. He was sorry to have detained the House, but he had desired to indicate, and had indicated to the best of his ability, the reasons why he desired to enter a protest against the measures which the London County Council had introduced during the last few years in their General Powers Bills. He
  278
  had only put his Motion on the Paper i n order that he might have an opportunity of entering his protest, and having done so he did not propose to move his Motion.
  *CAPTAIN JESSELsaid the Instruction which he had upon the Paper was that it should be an Instruction to the Committee to omit Clause 22, Part V. That clause provided
  "The Council may from time to time make representations to the Local Government Board as to the manner in which the Sale of Food and Drugs Acts, 1875 to 1899, are administered within the county, and may institute inquiries and make investigations for the purposes of this section."
  The Sale of Foods and Drugs Act, which was passed in 1875, was the outcome of other Acts and of a Royal Commission which sat from 1869 to 1871. Up to the present time the London County Council had had no jurisdiction in the administration of these Acts. Originally Parliament laid it down that the execution of these Acts should be supervised by a Government Department and should be carried out by the local sanitary authority, and he might remind the House that in the strict sense of the word the London County Council was not the local sanitary authority. This principle had been enforced for many years, and, in 1888, when Parliament conferred on every other county council the power of administering the Food and Drugs Act, owing to the fact that there were other local authorities in London, an exception was made so far as the London County Council was concerned, and that power was not conferred upon them. In 1899, when the London Government Act was passed and the borough councils were created, no Amendment was proposed for the purpose of taking the power in this matter from the borough councils and giving it to the County Council, nor was advantage taken of the opportunity afforded in 1903, when Parliament subsequently enpowered the Local Government Board and the Board of Agriculture to take such action as was necessary with a view to ascertaining whether local authorities were doing their duty and if necessary to enforce performance, to move such an

  279
  amendment of the Law. Two governing authorities, the Local Government Board and the Board of Agriculture, were surely amply sufficient in this matter. The principal objection of the borough councils to the clause was that there would be two sets of officials going over the same ground, and considerable extra expense. There was no reason to suppose that inspectors would discharge their duties more efficiently simply because they were appointed by one authority rather than another. If the London County Council thought there was any slackness it was perfectly open to them to make representations to the Local Government Board or the Board of Agriculture. Nothing had been alleged against the present administration of the Acts; the clause would lead to duplication of inspection, clashing of authorities, and increased expense; the proposal was against the general trend of London legislation, that as far as possible local duties should be discharged by the borough councils and central duties by the County Council, and therefore he asked the House to instruct the Committee to omit Clause 22, Part V.
  MR. HERBERT ROBERTSONseconded the Motion, first, because of the extra expense the clause would involve to London, secondly, because it would certainly lead to friction between the County Council and the borough councils. The clause contained two propositions. The first was that the Council should be empowered from time to time to make representations to the Local Government Board as to the manner in which the Sale of Food and Drugs Acts, 1875–99, were administered within the county. That portion was altogether unnecessary, as the County Council already had the power. The second and more important proposition was that the Council should be enabled to institute inquiries and make investigations for the purposes of the section. Those were extraordinarily wide words, and could only mean that the County Council were to appoint inspectors and take samples. They were really to have the same power as borough councils in the matter and there could hardly fail to be friction, while the expense involved was almost unlimited. Already
  280
  the Local Government Board and the Board of Agriculture appointed inspectors, so that with those appointed by the borough councils and the County Councils there would be four sets of inspectors doing more or less the same work. Because he considered the provision a wasteful one and regarded it as unnecessary that the County Council should be placed in this position of superiority over the borough councils he begged to second the Instruction to the Committee.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Bill to omit Clause 22, Part V.:—(Captain Jessel).
  MR. JOHN BURNSexplained that the most contentious and controversial clauses in the present Bill had been introduced at the instance of the borough councils themselves. Why the particular clause to which objection was being taken should cause friction between the County Council and the borough councils he was at a loss to understand. It did not disqualify the borough councils in any respect, nor did it take away from or add to the powers they already possessed. It simply enabled the County Council, as the central sanitary authority, to ascertain whether the twenty-nine borough councils were doing their duty. He put it to any impartially-minded legislator, who was not imbued with a fanatical hatred of the London County Council, whether the matter dealt with in the clause did not come within the purview of an authority such as the County Council. If London was sanitarily a single entity the power would be unnecessary, but in this matter of adulteration London was split up into twenty-nine disconnected areas, and in the interests of 6,000,000 people the County Council thought that if they found one of those authorities not doing its duty they should have power to report the fact to the Local Government Board. Was there a case for this clause? In Marylebone 1 per cent. of the samples of milk taken were adulterated; in Chelsea 2 per cent.; and in Hammerssmith, 3 per cent. If all the borough councils were as virtuous as Marylebone, as excellent as Chelsea, and as anxious to

  281
  do the right thing as Hammersmith, this particular clause would not be necessary, but they were not. The poorer the district, the greater was the adulteration of milk and food. In Stepney, 18 per cent, of the samples were adulterated——
  *CAPTAIN JESSEL: And in Battersea, 13 per cent.
  MR. JOHN BURNS: Yes, and in St. Pancras 20, and in Hackney, 21.
  MR. HERBERT ROBERTSON: That shows how well they take the samples.
  MR. JOHN BURNSsaid he could not be expected to give the percentage of samples that were not taken. The bulk of the milk in Stepney and Hackney was bought by very poor people in small quantities chiefly for children, who ought to have good milk, whereas they got what was known as "sky-blue," He had recently been told by a physician at St. Thomas's Hospital that from 90 to 95 per cent, of children were at birth organically sound and physically healthy, but that they went to pieces between birth and six months of age because they could not get good milk and food. The result was that they did not develop physique to enable them at the age of twenty-one to enlist in the King's Company of the First Grenadier Guards. This matter had to be looked at from the point of view of the children, and the Report of the Physical Deterioration Committee was on the side of the supporters of this clause. In the rich districts where they had good milk the infantile death-rate was from 80 to 90 per 1,000, whereas in the poorer districts it ranged from 140 to 200 per 1,000, and the rates were highest where the samples of milk were most adulterated. Out of a thousand breast-fed infants in Liverpool only twenty died from diarrhœal complaints, while 300 died in the same period because they were fed on milk of the "sky-blue" description. A better illustration was afforded by St. Helens, where industrial conditions and the amenities of life were not ideal. St. Helens, with its sterilised milk depot, had a death-rate of eighty-seven per thousand of "milk-depot-fed" children, whilst the general death-rate was 167 per thousand. In the event of
  282
  its being proved by an investigation of the London County Council that Hackney could do what Marylebone did, and that Stepney ought to do what Chelsea did, the Local Government Board on the report of the County Council would issue a circular to the defaulting or apathetic authority and compel the worst councils to act up to what the best councils now did. There was no desire to interfere with the borough councils; all the County Council asked was that as the chief sanitary authority they should be empowered to make an investigation, report the result to the Local Government Board, and leave it to the impartiality of an Imperial Department to consider the facts for themselves, and, if necessary, act upon them.
  MR. COHENsaid that he at least could not fairly be accused of showing a fanatical opposition to the County Council. He had the privilege of serving for many years on that body, and on every possible occasion he had expressed his appreciation of the work they had discharged. He did not think, however, that the friends of the County Council were acting in the interests of that body when they attempted to invest it with the power of superintending the administration of councils which from their local knowledge were better able to look after certain aspects of local work. He did not think that the London County Council was pursuing its own interests in trying to acquire these powers. The duties of the Council ought to be administrative and not inquisitorial, and to grant such powers as these would only lead to a further increase in the rates. He hoped the House would pass this Instruction by an overwhelming majority, and prevent the London County Council acquiring powers which it was not better qualified to discharge than the borough councils, and which would only have the effect of causing hostility and friction between the London County Council and the borough councils.
  MR. BENNsaid he desired to say a few words by way of supplementing the excellent speech made by his hon. friend the Member for Battersea. His hon. friend had referred to the fanatical

  283
  opposition to the London County Council which he found in the House of Commons. Coming back to the House after an absence of nine years, he was delighted to find the London County Council standing so well in the House of Common. He wished to repudiate altogether any notion that there was any spirit antagonism existing in London between the borough councils and the London County Council. He desired to deal with the point which had been raised by the hon. Member for Islington. He was pleased that the hon. Member remembered his useful association with the London County Council, for they had very much missed his services on that body. With regard to the impression that the London County Council was endeavouring to seek new powers, he wished to draw attention to the fact that they were merely trying to make the law uniform with regard to the food and the health of the people. Upon this question he claimed that they came to the House of Commons asking for these powers with the full authority of London. Their election addresses were filled with references relating to the food and health of the people. Up to the year 1871 there were seventeen Acts having to do with the public health of London, and they were codified under the Public Health Act of 1891. If the Act of 1891 were examined it would be found to contain precisely the powers they were now asking for, and all they desired was that those powers should be extended to the Food and Drugs Act, so that the London County Council, in default of the local authority, should have power to make representations to the Local Government Board. He desired to call the attention of the hon. and gallant Member who moved this Amendment to the evidence of a clergyman closely associated with the life of the poor—he referred to Canon Horsley. Canon Horsley had said that there ought to be some provision to secure that the Sale of Food and Drugs Act was carried out with uniformity, and he found that in some districts the Act was vigorously carried out, whilst in others it was not. What they were anxious to obtain was that there should be uniformity in the law. The Act of 1899, which set up the borough councils of London, gave them the very powers with regard to certain matter
  284
  that they were now asking for, and they were given by a beneficent Conservative Government. For reasons of continuity he asked that these additional powers should be granted to the London County Council. They did not desire to deprive the borough councils of any powers, and the London County Council were only too anxious to relieve themselves of any duties which could be properly done in the locality; but there were things which could be done far more efficiently by a central body. It was of the greatest possible importance, in regard to the food of the people, that there should be some authority able to deal with London as a whole, and he hoped hon. Members opposite would assist them in obtaining powers which were necessary for the good administration of the city they were endeavouring to serve.
  *MAJOR EVANS GORDONsaid that according to the arguments of the hon. Member for Battersea, wherever large numbers of samples were found deficient that implied bad administration in those districts. He confessed that he could not follow that argument. If a large number of the samples were taken and were discovered to be bad he thought that implied very great activity on the part of the sanitary authority. The hon. Member for Battersea had said that because 18 per cent. of the samples taken in Stepney were found to be deficient, that that meant bad administration of the Food and Drugs Acts.
  MR. JOHN BURNSsaid that his contention was that if the percentage of adulteration in Marylebone was 1 per cent. and in Stepney it was 18 per cent., then Stepney ought to try to bring its milk supply up to the standard of Marylebone.
  *MAJOR EVANS GORDONasked by what process did the hon. Member propose that Stepney should bring their samples up to that standard? The first step to take was to discover that the milk supply was bad, and that was precisely what they were doing in the Borough of Stepney. All he wanted was that justice should be done to the Borough of Stepney in this matter. He did not

  285
  know what the opinion of the Stepney Borough Council was upon this clause but he believed that the medical office and his staff were second to none in the activity they displayed in discovering cases of adulteration. They went very closely into this question during their inquiries upon the alien question, and they found that the adulteration of food and milk in Stepney was for the most par done by foreigners who undersold English tradesmen, and that the activity of the borough authorities was greater than in any other part of London. If it were true that the Stepney local authorities were doing all they could to discover these bad practices, he would like to ask the Member for Battersea what more could the London County Council do if these additional powers were granted by the House? He did not see that any representations which the London County Council could make to the Local Government Board, or any steps which they could take on their own behalf could be better than a close and constant investigation and examination, followed up by prosecutions before the magistrates by the local authorities. What more could the London County Council do that was already being done? He heartily agreed with what had been said as to the importance of a pure milk supply as affecting the health of children, and he could assure the hon. Member for Battersea that there were numbers of dairymen in Stepney whose milk was as pure as was to be found in any part of the Metropolis. But he could not follow the argument that, because the prosecutions were numerous and the discoveries of adulteration numerous, the administration of the Sale of Food and Drugs Act in Stepney was slack. On the contrary, he was inclined to believe that the administration of the Act in Chelsea was much more likely to be slack, because the samples were only two or three per cent. bad, than they were in Hackney and other parts where high percentages of adulteration were known to exist. The percentage of bad samples meant nothing unless they knew the total number of samples taken. How many were taken in Chelsea, for example? The very facts used with such force by the hon. Member for Battersea were facts placed in his possession by the
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  activity of the very authorities whom he condemned so strongly. He was in no way fanatically opposed to the London County Council, but in his opinion they already possessed powers to make representations to the Local Government Board.
  MR. BENNsaid that the reason they asked for these powers was that if they spent any money now under the present law in carrying out these duties they would be surcharged by the auditor.
  *MAJOR EVANS GORDONsaid he knew that at present the London County Council made representations under the present law upon all sorts of questions to all sorts of authorities, and he could not see any necessity for the further powers which were now being asked for. The hon. Member for Devonport said he was most desirous of avoiding any friction with the borough councils, but if the London County Council set up another set of inspectors to supervise those already in existence that course would be sure to cause friction, and for that reason he should vote for this Instruction.
  MR. CROOKSappealed to the mover to withdraw the Instruction. It was true the Council had powers in many directions, powers of the character now sought, with the object of getting rid of adulteration in the same way as by constant inspection the use of false weights and measures had been stamped out. It was not nice to hear the stories of the poor as to the way they were constantly being imposed upon in regard to their food supply. He agreed that almost every sanitary staff in London at the present time was overworked, but the purity of the food of the people was of far more importance. Why should the London County Council be denied the right to take samples? Tradesmen travelled about with food which was unsound, selling it in those districts where it was known that the administration of the Act was slack. A case had been brought to his notice of a man selling in a very poor neighbourhood what were known as "block ornaments." They were offered for sale upon a travelling butcher's shop, and the salesman said to a poor woman, "Have that lot

  287
  for 3d.?" She declined to purchase, and then they were offered at 2d., then for 1d., and as she still declined to purchase he said, "I am going to turn my back, please steal 'em' What right had that man to be offering such things for sale at all? He appealed to the House to help them to put a little more courage and stamina into the borough councils in this matter, and not least to strengthen the hands of the medical officers, so that, if the borough councils neglected their duty, they might appeal to the London County Council to put the Act in force.
  MR. HUNTsaid that it was very necessary that the poor people of London should be protected in regard to their food. The people of Battersea had taken steps in good time, and the result was that they had secured a pure milk supply, but other districts had not been so active, with the result that they had got a good many cases of adulteration.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 183; Noes, 177. (Division List No. 60.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E.

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th)

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Lawson, Hn. H. L. W. (Mile End)

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Arrol, Sir William

  Fergusson. Rt. Hn. SirJ. (Manc'r

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Finlay Sir R. B. (Inverness B'ghs

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Balcarres, Lord

  Forster, Henry William

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick. S. W.

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Gardner, Ernest

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Garfit, William

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Bartley, Sir George C. T.

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn

  Malcolm, Ian

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Gordon, Maj. Evans-(T'rH'mlets

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Bill, Charles

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Maxwell, Rt, Hn. SirH. E. (Wigt'n

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Greene, Sir E W. (B'ryS. Edm'nds

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriesshire

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

  Milvain, Thomas

  Boulnois, Edmund

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow

  Brassey, Albert

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Hamilton. Marq. of (L'donderry

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Bull, William James

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ.

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley)

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Heath, Sir James (Staffords. NW

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Helder, Augustus

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Henderson Sir A. (Stafford, W.)

  Percy, Earl

  Chapman, Edward

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Purvis, Robert

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Hoult, Joseph

  Randles, John S.

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Howard, John (Kent, Faversham

  Rankin, Sir James

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Hunt, Rowland

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.

  Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.)

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Ridley, S. Forde

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Davenport, W. Bromley

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col.W.

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

  Kerr, John

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Denny, Colonel

  Keswick, William

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Samuel, Sir Harry S. (Limehouse

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph C.

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Tuff, Charles

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Valentia, Viscount

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lancs.)

  Vincent, Col. Sir. C. EH. (Sheffield

  Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H. (Yorks.)

  Stock, James Henry

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C B. Stuart

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Stroyan, John

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Wylie, Alexander

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

  Captain Jessel and Mr.

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Herbert Robertson.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Green, Walford D. (Wednesbury

  Partington, Oswald

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Grey. Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick)

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Allen, Charles P.

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Perks, Robert William

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Rea, Russell

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Harwood, George

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D.

  Renwick, George

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Bell, Richard

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Bigwood, James

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Bingham, Lord

  Higham, John Sharpe

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Black, Alexander William

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Bond, Edward

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Runciman, Walter

  Brigg, John

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Russell, T. W.

  Bright, Allan Heywood

  Johnson, John

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Joicey, Sir James

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Shackleton, David James

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Burns, John

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Butcher, John George

  Kitson, Sir James

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Lambert, George

  Slack, John Bamford

  Caldwell, James

  Lamont, Norman

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Cameron, Robert

  Langley, Batty

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Spear, John Ward

  Cawley, Frederick

  Levy, Maurice

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R (Northants

  Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Lloyd-George, David

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Lough, Thomas

  Sullivan, Donal

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Lowther, RtHnJ. W. (Cum. Penr.

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  Crean Eugene

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Cremer, William Randal

  M'Crae, George

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  M'Kean, John

  Tomkinson, James

  Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Toulmin, George

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Doughty, Sir George

  Mitchell Edw. (Fermanagh, N.)

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Douglas Charles M. (Lanark)

  Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.)

  Waldron, Laurence Ambrose

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Edwards, Frank

  Moss, Samuel

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Ellice, Capt E C. (S. Andrw'sB'ghs

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Murphy, John

  Wason, john Cathcart (Orkney)

  Emmott, Alfred

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A C. E. (Taunton)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Newnes, Sir George

  White, Luke, York, E. R.)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Whiteley, George (York, WR.)

  Findlay Alexander (Lanark, NE

  Norman, Henry

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Fison, Frederick William

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Flavin Michael Joseph

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Foster, Sir Walter (Delby Co.)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Williams Osmond (Merioneth)

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  O'Mara, James

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

  290

  291

  Wood, James

  Young, Samuel

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersfield

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Benn and Mr. Crooks

  MR. CLAUDE HAY MR. CLAUDE HAY (Shoreditch, Hoxton) moved the following further Instruction, "That it be an Instruction to the Committee to substitute, in Part VI. of the Bill, the medical officer of a borough council for the medical officer of the County Council." He said he had never been one of those who attacked the London County Council, but he held that nothing but evil results would flow from dual control in matters relating to the milk supply in London. The medical officers of the borough councils were doing their best to cope with milk adulteration and milk-borne diseases, and if increased powers were to be given to any authorities it was to these medical officers that they should be given, rather than to a new staff of medical officers to be appointed by the London County Council. The latter could not possibly possess the local knowledge enjoyed by the medical officers of the borough councils, and local knowledge was of the first importance in tracking out the evil-doer when food adulteration and disease were concerned. If, for instance, the medical officer of Shoreditch desired to prevent the sale of milk in Battersea which had been condemned in Shoreditch, and further powers were necessary in order to secure that object, it would be far better that the Shoreditch medical officer should be entrusted with the duty of making representations direct to the Local Government Board rather than the roundabout proposal of this private Bill, which would necessitate the Shoreditch medical officer approaching the London County Council, and the London County Council the Local Government Board. In his judgment the subject of milk-borne diseases and the milk supply of London was far too grave to be dealt with by a Private Bill such as that now before the House. The question was one which could only be adequately dealt with by the Government by a public Statute, and it was wiser to await the Report of the Royal Commission now examining the connection between human and bovine tuberculosis, than to attempt to tinker with a subject concerning the health of infant life by a stray clause
  292
  in a private Bill. If this clause were adopted friction between the County Council and the borough council must result, and an unnecessary and increased charge cast upon the London ratepayers to provide a redundant staff, and no real remedy would be provided against the insufficient and bad supply of milk in London or against the diseases flowing therefrom.
  SIR HENRY KIMBER, in seconding the instruction, expressed the hope that it would be accepted by the hon. Members in charge of the Bill, who represented the London County Council. Part VI. of the Bill dealt with the question of milk supply. While he had no desire to raise any unreasonable objection to the Bill, he wished to say that by conferring the powers which were asked by the County Council they would throw on that body an enormous amount of work over a large area which it was less fitted to perform than the borough councils. The County Council would be obliged to have a staff permeating every one of the boroughs of the Metropolis and covering ground which was already covered by the medical officers of the local authorities, who were obviously better able to deal with these matters. The officials of the borough councils were more accessible to those who had a right to complain than the officials of the County Council. It should be an Instruction to the Committee, which would decide what could conveniently administered by the London County Council.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Bill to substitute, in Part VI. of the Bill, the medical officer of a borough council for the medical officer of the County Council."—(Mr Claude Hay.)
  MR. COURTENAY WARNERsaid that from the farmers' point of view, he objected to having two inspectors—one representing the County Council, and the other representing the borough council. Now, of the two, he preferred the inspector of the London County Council as the better authority. The important thing was

  293
  that the milk should be brought to London pure and cheap.
  MR. JOHN BURNSsaid that it was a matter of common knowledge that the London County Council would have been quite content that this Bill should have gone upstairs, and that a proper tribunal should have given a decision on full information presented to it on this contentious subject. It was quite clear that on the smallest matter in which the London County Council desired to promote the good government of London, the hon. Members for Peckham, Wandsworth, and St. Pancras, with, perhaps the hon. Gentlemen who represented the agricultural districts, opposed it. He did not believe that it was in the interest of agriculture that bad milk should be sold anywhere. On the contrary, he believed that the better the milk the more of it would be sold. The London County Council thought that it was not right that the chief sanitary authority in the Metropolis should be deprived of authority when the borough councils their duty. Supposing from St. Albans to Finsbury and the medical officer there decided that it was tuberculous and infectious and would not allow it to be sold; and supposing milk from the same farm was sent to Battersea, and that the medical officer there did not care to condemn it, then they thought that the medical officer of the London County Council should have power to refuse permission for it to be sold in Battersea. That was a reasonable request, and Part VI. of the Bill ought at any rate to be passed. Neither the cowkeepers nor the dairymen had petitioned against the Bill. This part of the Bill was based on the model milk clauses passed by the Police and Sanitary Committee and sanctioned by the Local Government Board. On behalf of the London County Council he was sorry to say that he could not accept the Instruction, and he insisted that the London County Council should have concurrent powers with the borough councils to prohibit the introduction of infectious and tuberculous milk into any part of London.
  *MR. BURDETT-COUTTSsaid that the hon. Member for
  294
  Battersea had complained that this Instruction was moved on a microscopic detail. The reason for that was that the London County Council had gratuitously made an attempt on this microscopic detail, as it constantly did on larger questions, to assume functions which did not belong to it. This Bill was part of a system by which the London County Council was constantly setting up the theory that the borough councils were inferior and subject to it—[An HON. MEMBER: No.]—whereas everyone who had watched the subject knew that they were separate bodies with separate functions, each responsible to the Local Government Board. The hon. Member for Devonport, who had gained great and well-merited distinction in the municipal arena of London, and whom he welcomed back to this House for everything except his political opinions, had deprecated what he called the hostility between the London County Council and the borough councils, but his contention was that it was just such attempts as these on the part of the London County Council to assume the functions of the borough councils which set up and sustained that hostility. The hon. Member for Battersea claimed that the representative principle was more fully carried out in the County Council than in the borough councils.
  MR. JOHN BURNSsaid that what he had stated was that there were twenty-nine borough councils, and that something was needed to protect London as a whole, because some of these twenty-nine borough councils did not, or would not, do their duty.
  MR. BURDETT-COUTTSsaid he was in the recollection of the House as to what the hon. Member had said about the representative principles, and he would put it to the House whether the borough councils were not a more effective authority to deal with questions of this sort than the London County Council. He would put this particular case in a concrete form. Supposing these powers were granted to the County Council, and the control or regulation of the milk supply was in its hands. If a particular district or borough were dissatisfied with the quality of its milk they

  295
  could turn out their individual county councillor; but that would not affect the policy of the County Council, or improve their administration of the regulations. On the other hand, if the control was left to the borough council, and the borough was dissatisfied, they could turn out the whole borough council and carry the wishes of the electorate into effect. That was the true representative principle. The hon. Member considered that there was every virtue in centralisation, and that was one of the great
  grounds on which he had advanced the claims of the London County Council. But he contended that the borough councils were the proper authorities to deal with all those matters of local government to which reference had been made, and which had nothing to do with politics.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 193; Noes 179. (Division List No. 61).

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Hart

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Lowe, Francis William

  Arrol, Sir William

  Finch, Rt, Hon. George H.

  Lowther, Rt Hn J W (Cum. Penr.

  Atkinson, Rt Hon. John

  Finlay, Sir R. B. (Invern'ssB'ghs)

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt Hon. Sir H.

  Fison, Frederick William

  Lucas, R. J. (Portsmouth)

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Fitzroy, Hon. E. Algernon

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Forster, Henry William

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Malcolm, Ian

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Gardner, Ernest

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Garfit, William

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Godson, Sir A. Frederick

  Maxwell, Rt Hn. Sir H. E. (Wigt'n

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn)

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets

  Milvain, Thomas

  Bill, Charles

  Goschen, Hon. G. Joachim

  Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow).

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Bond, Edward

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Greene, Sir E W (B'rySEdm'nds

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Boulnois, Edmund

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Mount, William Arthur

  Brassey, Albert

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Bull, William James

  Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nderry

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ.

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire)

  Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley)

  Pease, H. Pike (Darlington

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Heath, Sir J. (Staffords, N. W.)

  Percy, Earl

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A. (Worc.

  Helder, Augustus

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton

  Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Chapman, Edward

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Purvis, Robert

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Randles, John S.

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Rankin, Sir James

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Hoult, Joseph

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Howard, J. (Kent, Faversham

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.

  Hozier, Hon. J. Henry Cecil

  Ridley, S. Forde

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Hunt, Rowland

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Jebb, Sir R. Claverhouse

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Kenyon, Hon. G. T. (Denbigh)

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Davenport, William Bromley-

  Kerr, John

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

  Keswick, William

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Samuel, Sir Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Dimsdale, Rt Hon. Sir Joseph C.

  Lawrence, Sir J. (Monm'th)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Dorington, Rt Hn. Sir John E

  Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham)

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Tuff, Charles

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset)

  Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Stanley, Rt Hn. Lord (Lancs.)

  Vincent. Col. Sir C. E. H (Sheffield

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Stock, James Henry

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H. (Yorks.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Walrond, Rt Hn. Sir William H.

  Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Stroyan, John

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Wylie, Alexander

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Claude Hay and Sir Henry

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Whiteley, H (Ashton und. Lyne

  Kimber.

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  NOES.

  Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Moss, Samuel

  Abraham, Wm. (Rhondda)

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Murphy, John

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Allen, Charles P.

  Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Norman, Henry

  Asquith, Rt Hn. Herbert Henry

  Gladstone, Rt Hn. Herbert John

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Green, Walford D. (Wednesbury

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Bell, Richard

  Grey, Rt Hon. Sir E. (Berwick)

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Bigwood, James

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Bingham, Lord

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  O'Mara, James

  Black, Alexander William

  Haldane, Rt Hon. Richard B.

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Partington Oswald

  Brigg, John

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Bright, Allan Heywood

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Harwood, George

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Brown, G. M. (Edinburgh)

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Rea, Russell

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Renwick, George

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Burns, John

  Higham, John Sharpe

  Roberts John H. (Denbighs.)

  Butcher, John George

  Holland, Sir Wm. Henry

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Caldwell, James

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Cameron, Robert

  Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.)

  Runciman, Walter

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Russell T. W.

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Johnson John

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Joicey, Sir James

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Cawley, Frederick

  Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Shackleton, David James

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Kearley, Hudson, E.

  Shaw Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir J. H.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Crean, Eugene

  Kitson, Sir James

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Labouchere, Henry

  Slack, John Bamford

  Crombie, John William

  Lambert, George

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Lamont, Norman

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Langley, Batty

  Spear Jhon Ward

  Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan

  Lawson, Hn. H. L. W. (MileEnd)

  Spencer, Rt Hn C. R. (Northants

  Denny, Colonel

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Dilke, Rt, Hon. Sir Charles

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Sullivan, Donal

  Doughty, Sir George

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Levy, Maurice

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Thomas, D. Alfred (Merthyr)

  Edwards, Frank

  Lough, Thomas

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Elibank, Master of

  Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)

  Tomkinson, James

  Ellice, Capt E C (S. Andr'wsB'ghs

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Toulmin, George

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Emmott, Alfred

  M'Crae, George

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Walton, Joseph(Barnsley)

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

  Fenwick, Charles

  Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

  Findlay, Alex. (Lanark, N. E.)

  Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Morpeth, Viscount

  298

  299

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Wilson, J W. (Worcestershire, N.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Wood, James

  Benn and Mr. Crooks.

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd

  Wills, Arthur Walters (N. Dorset

  Young, Samuel

  SIR FREDERICK BANBURY SIR FREDERICK BANBURY (Camberwell, Peckham) moved:— "That it be an Instruction to the Committee to omit Part XV." He said the clause which he desired to omit empowered the local authorities to supply wires, fittings, and apparatus to the premises of their consumers, and to borrow money for the purpose. The object of that clause was to introduce municipal trading and to interfere with the legitimate work of private shopkeepers, contractors, and engineers.
  Motion made and Question proposed, "That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Bill to omit Part XV."— (Sir Frederick Banbury.)
  MR. JOHN BURNSsaid the County Council was acting in this matter on behalf of the borough councils. There were in London thirteen electric lighting companies who had power to supply electric light and to sell to the consumers the necessary fittings and appliances. Parliament had given to sixteen borough councils the power to supply electric light in London, but they could not do so effectively or cheaply if the fittings and appliances had to be bought from middlemen who frequently made large profits out of the consumers. The borough councils, without exception, had asked the County Council to apply for powers in their Bill to enable them to sell fittings to consumers who took their electric light. It was ridiculous to call
  that a glaring instance of municipal trading. Let Members be logical and consistent. Why should they refuse this power to the borough councils and at the same time allow the South Metropolitan Gas Company to supply burners and cooking stoves?
  SIR HENRY KIMBERsaid the proposal was one which might be very reasonably objected to. The London County Council was doing very good work; but in his opinion power should not be given to local authorities to enter into competition with traders by means of capital provided by the ratepayers.
  MR. BENNsaid that the London County Council did not want to sell the fittings themselves; they were merely voicing the opinion of the borough councils. At present, two borough councils—Woolwich and Marylebone—possessed this power, and the other borough councils desired to have it in one Act instead of having to promote separate Acts.
  *MAJOR EVANS GORDONsaid he was convinced that it was reasonable those powers should be given to the borough councils, and he should vote against the Instruction.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 190; Noes, 196. (Division List No. 62.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W (Leeds

  Brassey, Albert

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.)

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Bull, William James

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Butcher, John George

  Arnold-Forster, Rt Hn. Hugh O.

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ.

  Arrol Sir William

  Bigwood, James

  Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H.

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Bill, Charles

  Cavendish. V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn Sir H.

  Bingham, Lord

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn J. A (Wore.

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Bond, Edward

  Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton

  Balcarres, Lord

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Chapman, Edward

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Boulnois, Edward

  Clive, Captain, Percy A.

  301

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Joicey, Sir James

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Kennaway. Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Kenyon, Hn. George T. (Denbigh

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim. S.

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col. W.

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Kerr, John

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Keswick, William

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Davenport, William Bromley

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph(Monm'th)

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Joseph C.

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks N. R.

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareham

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Sinclair, Louis Romford

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Spear, John Ward

  Finlay, Sir R. B. (Inv'rn'ss B'ghs

  Lowe, Francis William

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lowther, Rt Hn JW (Cum. Penr.

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord(Lanes.)

  Fison, Frederick William

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Stock, James Henry

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Forster, Henry William

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Stroyan, John

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Galloway, William Johnson

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Gardner, Ernest

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Garfit, William

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Malcolm, Ian

  Tuff, Charles

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn)

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Valentia, Viscount

  Grey, Ernest (West Ham)

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. EH (Sheffield

  Greene, Sir EW (B'ry S Edm'nds

  Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H E. (Wigt'n)

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Maxwell, W. J. H (Dumfriesshire

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Milvain, Thomas

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.)

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow

  Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon

  Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'derry)

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Mount, William Arthur

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Helder, Augustus

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.)

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Wilson, John(Glasgow)

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H. (Yorks.)

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Percy, Earl

  Wylie, Alexander

  Howard, John (Kent, Fav'rsham

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Hozier, Hon, James Henry Cecil

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Hunt, Rowland

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  TELLERSFOR THE AYES—Sir

  Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.)

  Purvis, Robert

  Frederick Banbury and Mr.

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Randles, John S.

  Frederick Smith.

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Rankin, Sir James

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork. N. E.)

  Bright, Allan Heywood

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Crean, Eugene

  Allen, Charles P.

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Cremer, William Randal

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Crombie, John William

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Asquith, Rt Hn. Herbert Henry

  Burns, John

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Caldwell, James

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Cameron, Robert

  Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan)

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Denny, Colonel

  Bell, Richard

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Benn, John Williams

  Cawley, Frederick

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Black, Alexander William

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Edwards, Frank

  Brigg, John

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Elibank, Master of

  302

  303

  Ellice, Capt EC (SAndr'ws B'ghs

  Lawson, Hn. H. L. W. (Mile End)

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Emmott, Alfred

  Layland (Barratt, Francis

  Seely. Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Shackleton, David James

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Levy, Maurice

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Findlay, Alexander (Lanark, N E

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Slack, John Bamford

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Lough, Thomas

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (Northants

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

  Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  M'Crae, George

  Sullivan, Donal

  Gladstone, Rt Hn. Herbert John

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Tennant, Harold John

  Green, Walford D. (Wednesbury

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Grey, Rt. Hon Sir E. (Berwick)

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Moss, Samuel

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Murphy, John

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Hardie, J Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Tomkinson, James

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Newnes, Sir George

  Toulmin, George

  Harwood, George

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Norman, Henry

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Heaton, John Henniker

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  O'Mara, James

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Higham, John Sharpe

  Partington, Oswald

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Whitley. J. H. (Halifax)

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Hoult, Joseph

  Priestley, Arthur

  Wills, Arthur Walters (N Dorset)

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Rea, Russell

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Johnson, John

  Renwick, George

  Wilson, J W. (Worcest'rshire, N.

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Wood, James

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Ridley, S. Forde

  Woodhouse, Sir. J T. (Huddersf'd

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

  Young, Samuel

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Kitson, Sir James

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Labouchere, Henry

  Runciman, Walter

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Lambert, George

  Russell, T. W.

  Major Evans-Gordon and

  Lamont, Norman

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Mr. Crooks.

  Langley, Batty

  Samuel, Sir Harry S. (Limehouse

  Question put, and agreed to.

  SIR EDWARD STRACHEY SIR EDWARD STRACHEY (Somersetshire, S.) rose on behalf of the Central Chamber of Agriculture to move as an instruction to the Committee to omit Clause 34. He said they had successfully opposed it already in the Borough of Ealing. They were perfectly ready to assent to legislation, and all they asked was that they might know exactly their position, and the conditions under which they might supply milk. The London County Council already had very great powers in the matter of regulations relating to dairymen, water supply, dairies, cow sheds, and disease. They also had ample powers under the Public Health (London) Act, 1891, to inspect dairies
  304
  and to prohibit milk coming into London, and yet they wanted still greater powers. It was not right to do by piecemeal legislation and by means of a private Bill what ought to be done by a public Bill. Either the London County Council should have the power or the borough councils should have it, but it was not right that the farmers should be brought into conflict with two authorities. Another point was that the medical officers of health had passed various dairies and cow sheds, and farmers had already been put to heavy expenditure. In spite of that fact, the London County Council would have power to over-rride them and to say that unless other things were done

  305
  the farmers would have their milk stopped. They were perfectly ready to be supervised by one authority, but it was not fair to have two authorities to deal with and to have to meet conflicting ideas and interests. He begged to move.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Bill to omit Clause 34."—(Sir Edward Strachey.)
  *MR. CLAUDE HAYseconded the Instruction. He objected to the London County Council having power to interfere with the work of other county councils in their own area. There was no justification for the claim of the London County Council to be able to go, for instance, into the county of Cornwall and to interfere with the administration of the health laws in that county by the Cornwall County Council. What would be said by the London County Council if the medical officers of the County Council of Hertfordshire were to be allowed to interfere with the administration of the health laws in London by the medical officers of the London County Council? The whole subject was one of the first importance to the health of the children of London, and by reason of its gravity should not be trifled with by private Bill legislation, but on the responsibility of the Government of the day. A measure should be brought forward which would cope with the milk supply, not only of London, but of the whole country, and this when the scientific Commission now sitting had made its recommendations.
  MR. JOHN BURNSpointed out that it was only asked for the London County Council to have the power, in the event of milk being sent from a tuberculous district, to take its proper place in dealing with it. A farmer in Hertford-shire might send milk to Kensington. Kensington might refuse to have it and send it on to Clapham, which in turn might refuse to have it. The milk might be sent to Stepney, and from thence to St. Pancras. It was only right that St. Pancras should have the right to say that infectious milk should not be sent into its district. It might be urged that this matter could
  306
  be left to the county council of the district, but they were more or less interested, and would take a biassed view. They would not be quite so vigilant as an outside authority. The consumer in London held a different view, and surely the 5,000,000 there had a right to be protected against a diseased cow. If it were contended that the county councils were a sufficient safeguard he would point out that out of sixty-two county councils only thirty-five had appointed medical officers for this purpose, and only fifteen of the number gave the whole of their time to the work. Some councils had no medical officer at all, and he thought that for the effective protection of the consumer the London County Council ought to have the power to intervene. He appealed to the agricultural Members of the House to popularise the sale of milk in London. If they gave colour to a suggestion that bad milk could be sent into London they would decrease the consumption and there act against their own interests.
  *COLONEL WILLIAMSagreed that it was quite right that the 5,000,000 people in London should be protected against bad milk, but, on the other hand, the farmers wanted to be protected against the London County Council which, under this Bill, would be able to go into the remotest corners of the country and override the rules of the local councils. Each locality must provide its own regulations, and they did not want to be overridden by the London County Council.
  MR. DISRAELIthought that it would be a most extraordinary thing to set up the sanitary authority of London as a sanitary authority for a district 100 miles from the Metropolis. They in Buckinghamshire would not tolerate such a proposal, and he should vote against it.
  *MR. LLEWELLYNalso supported the Instruction. They already had suitable regulations under the Contagious Diseases Notification Act in force in the country, and on behalf of agriculturists he submitted that the proposal of the Bill was absolutely unjust and altogether unnecessary.
  MR. JOHN BURNSdid not wish to unduly trouble the House, and would accept the Instruction.
  Ordered, That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Bill to omit Clause 34.—(Sir Edward Strachey.)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Bill, in Clause 35, Sub-clause (4), line 18, after the word 'man,' to insert the words 'provided that such a condition is due to the wilful neglect of.'"—(Mr. Gardner.)
  Ordered, That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Bill, in Clause 35, Sub-clause 4, line 18, after the word "man," to insert the words "provided that such a condition is due to the wilful neglect of."—(Mr. Gardner.)

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (SUPPLY, ETC.).
  Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment [16th March] to Question [15th March], "That, in order to comply with the Law, the proceedings necessary to dispose of any Supplementary Estimates and Vote A and Vote 1 of the Estimates for the Navy, and of the Ways and Means Resolutions consequential thereon, shall, if not previously disposed of, be brought to a conclusion in the manner hereinafter mentioned:—
  "At half-past Five of the clock on the 21st day of March next, the Chairman shall forthwith put every Question necessary to dispose of the Vote then under consideration, and shall then forthwith put the Question that the total amount of the outstanding Votes for the Civil Service Supplementary Estimates be granted for the services defined in those Estimates, and shall also forthwith put every other Question necessary to dispose of those Votes.
  "As soon as the Resolutions so disposed of are reported to the House, the House shall forthwith resolve itself into Committee of Ways and Means, and the Chairman shall forthwith put every
  308
  Question necessary to dispose of any Resolutions proposed in that Committee.
  "At Ten of the clock on the 23rd day of March next, the Speaker shall forthwith put every Question necessary to dispose of the Report of the Resolution then under consideration, and shall then forthwith put the Question that the House doth agree with the Committee in all Resolutions reported in respect of the Civil Service Supplementary Estimates, and shall then put a like Question on the Resolution reported with respect to the Supplementary Estimates for the Army, and on the Resolutions reported with respect to Vote A and Vote 1 of the Estimates for the Navy.
  "On the consideration of the Report from the Committee of Ways and Means, the Speaker shall forthwith put the Question that the House do agree with the Committee in the Resolutions reported.
  "And that at half-past Eleven of the clock on the 27th day of March next, the Speaker shall forthwith put any Question necessary to dispose of the Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill; and at Seven of the clock on the 30th day of March next the Speaker shall forthwith put every Question necessary to dispose of the Third Reading of that Bill.
  "And that the proceedings on going into Supply on the Army Estimates, and in Committee, and on Report, of Vote A and Vote 1 of those Estimates shall, if not previously disposed of, be brought to a conclusion in the following manner;
  At half-past Six of the clock on the 28th day of March next, the Speaker shall forthwith put every Question necessary to dispose of the Motion that the Speaker leave the Chair on going into Supply on the Army Estimates.
  "At half-past Six of the clock on the 29th day of March next, the Chairman shall forthwith put every Question necessary to dispose of Vote A and Vote 1 of the Army Estimates in Committee.
  "At Eleven of the clock on the 30th day of March next, the Speaker shall forthwith put every Question necessary to

  309
  dispose of the Report of the Resolutions with respect to Vote A and Vote 1 of the Army Estimates.
  "Until the Business to which this Order relates is concluded the consideration of the Business of Supply at any Sitting at which Government Business has precedence shall not be anticipated by a Motion for Adjournment, and no dilatory Motion shall be received on proceedings on that Business, and the Business shall not be interrupted under any Standing Order.
  "Until the Business to which this Order relates is concluded no Business other than Business of Supply shall be taken at any Sitting at which Government Business has precedence."—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
  Which Amendment was—
  "In line 6, to leave out the word 'Five,' and insert the word 'Seven.'"—(Mr. Whitley.)
  Question again proposed, "That the word 'Five' stand part of the Question."
  MAJOR SEELY MAJOR SEELY moved to leave out Vote 1, in order that no misunderstanding should exist as to Vote 7 for forage provisions and stores being substituted, and as to the Prime Minister's undertaking that the whole week from April 3rd would be given to discuss Vote 1. If it were not in order to discuss the matter of South African stores on that Vote the House would lose an opportunity of discussing it as a non-contentious Vote, but he understood that they were to have some other day than in the week beginning on April 3rd. He understood that they were to discuss Vote 7 in the ordinary way and that the whole week from April 3rd would be given to the discussion of Vote 1, when they could raise the vital question concerning the Government Army policy. He believed that was in accordance with the wishes of hon. Members on both sides of the House. He moved the Amendment in order to fully understand the terms which the Prime Minister explained to the House before the adjournment. He moved to omit the following words:—
  "And that the proceedings on going into Supply on the Army Estimates, and in Committee, and
  310
  on Report, of Vote A and Vote 1 of those Estimates, shall, if not previously disposed of, he brought to a conclusion in the following manner:
  "At half-past Six of the clock on the 28th day of March next, the Speaker shall forthwith put every Question necessary to dispose of the Motion that the Speaker leave the Chair on going into Supply on the Army Estimates.
  "At half-past Six of the clock on the 29th day of March next, the Chairman shall forthwith put every Question necessary to dispose of Vote A and Vote 1 of the Army Estimates in Committee.
  "At eleven of the clock on the 30th day of March next, the Speaker shall forthwith put every Question necessary to dispose of the Report of the Resolutions with respect to Vote A and Vote 1 of the Army Estimates."
  Amendment proposed.
  "In line 32, to leave out lines 32 to 44, inclusive."—(Major Seely.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out to the words 'Vote 1,' in line 33, stand part of the Question."
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he had no correction to make on his previous statement. The hon. Member had suggested that he had given a pledge that the discussion on Vote 1 should occupy the whole of the week following April 3rd. He was not sure the House would desire the whole of that time, but he would undertake that nothing else but Army Estimates should be put down on Government days until the Vote was disposed of, unless the discussion should be exhausted.
  MR. ASQUITHunderstood that instead of Vote A and Vote 1 they would have Vote A and Vote 7. It was very desirable that the position should be clearly stated. He understood that Vote 1 would be the first order on April 3rd, and that the whole of the Government time during that week would be given to its discussion if necessary.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Yes, Sir, but the Vote shall be finished.
  MR. ASQUITHsaid he understood that the second part of the undertaking was that the Government would give a special day to discuss the South African contracts and the Comptroller and Auditor General's Report upon them. Further,

  311
  that would be an early day; before Easter, if possible.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he did not quarrel with that statement, but he thought the House would probably desire to take the advice of the Public Accounts Committee as to the time they would discuss that matter. As soon as the House had full information, which the Opposition would desire, he was ready to discuss it.
  MR. ASQUITH: When we think the state of information is such as to allow a discussion the Prime Minister will be prepared to give a day?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Within a day or two.
  MR. DALZIELasked if the extra days would be regarded as allotted days.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the discussion on Vote A and Vote 1 would be allotted days.
  MR. DALZIELsaid that two of the days, which were only half days, could not be allotted days.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that only full days would be regarded as allotted days. It was not intended to give more time out of the session for the discussion of Supply.
  MR. DALZIELsaid that in that case he did not see that they were getting anything at all. Supply was always put down in accordance with the wishes of the Opposition and if the Opposition asked for five days to discuss the Army they would get it.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that if everything were to be squeezed out in favour of one Estimate it would be another matter.
  MR. DALZIELsaid that, personally, he should object to so much time being given to the Army. He did not think the House desired it. They had, however, a
  312
  promise from the right hon. Gentleman that the two half days would not be counted as allotted days.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELLasked whether they were to wait until then for the names of the defaulting contractors.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that his right hon. friend informed him that the names were already given.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. ARNOLD-FORSTER, Belfast, W.)said the Question on the subject was not reached in the Questions, but the Answer would appear in the Votes on the morrow.
  MR. CHURCHILLsaid that he thought in the circumstances the right hon. Gentleman the, Member for East Fife would be well advised to close with the bargain, especially as the minority were deprived of the assistance of the cohort from Ireland who were celebrating their national festival elsewhere. He thought they had succeeded in making a bargain with the Government; but although the compromise had been accepted it could not be said in any way to remove the rooted objection the minority had to the manner in which they had been treated. He admitted that the right hon. Gentleman had endeavoured to show a conciliatory spirit, and had made a real and substantial concession; but that did not alter the deep injury inflicted on the procedure of the House of Commons by the Resolution.
  MR. WHITLEYasked whether the Secretary of State's statement on money matters would be made on the Motion to get Mr. Speaker out of the Chair, or on Vote A under the guillotine, or on Vote 1.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that, subject to modification, the present intention of his right hon. friend was to make the statement on Vote A.
  Main Question amended, in line 33, by leaving out "1" and inserting "7";

  313
  in line 40, by leaving out "1" and inserting "7"; and in line 44, by leaving out "7" and inserting "7."—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
  Main Question, put, as amended.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 208; Noes, 129. (Division List No. 63.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  M' Arthur, Chas. (Liverpool)

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Forster, Henry William

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.)

  Malcolm, Ian

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O.

  Gardner, Ernest

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Arrol, Sir William

  Garfit, William

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H. E (Wigt'n)

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin Nairn)

  Maxwell, W. J. H (Dumfriesshire)

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'r H'mlets)

  Milvain, Thomas

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Balcarres, Lord

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r.)

  Greene, Sir E W (B'rySEdm'nds)

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Balfour, Rt Hn, Gerald W. (Leeds

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Banner, John S. Harmood

  Hambro Charles Eric

  Mount, William Arthur

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry)

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley)

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Bill, Charles

  Heath, Sir James (Staffords N W)

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Bingham, Lord

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Blundett, Colonel Henry

  Helder, Augustus

  Percy, Earl

  Bond, Edward

  Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Brassey, Albert

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Bull, William James

  Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside)

  Purvis, Robert

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Hoult, Joseph

  Randles, John S.

  Butcher, John George

  Howard, J. (Kent, Faversham)

  Rankin, Sir James

  Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ.)

  Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H

  Hunt, Rowland

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.)

  Renwick, George

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Ridley, S. Forde

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A. (Wore.

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Chapman, Edward

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T (Denbigh)

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col W.

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Kerr, John

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Keswick, William

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Lawrence, Sir J. (Monm'th)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Lawson, Hn. H. L. W. (Mile End)

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Davenport, W. Bromley

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks N. R)

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Davies, Sir Horatio D.(Chatham

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

  Denny, Colonel

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Spear, John Ward

  Disraeli, Conings by Ralph

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E.

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs

  Doughty, Sir George

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Stock, James Henry

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham

  Stroyan, John

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Lowe, Francis Wiliam

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Finlay, Sir R. B. (Inv'rn'ssB'ghs)

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Tuff, Charles

  Fisher, William Hayes

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Fison, Frederick William

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Turnour, Viscount

  Vincent, Col Sir C. E. H (Sheffield

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und Lyne

  Wylie, Alexander

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. H.

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Willough by de Eresby, Lord

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E (Taunton

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Viscount Valentia.

  Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts.)

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

  Harwood, George

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Allen, Charles P.

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Higham, John Sharpe

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Runciman, Walter

  Bell, Richard

  Joicey, Sir James

  Russell, T. W.

  Benn, John Williams

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Black, Alexander William

  Jones, Leif(Appleby)

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight)

  Brigg, John

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Shackleton, David James

  Bright, Allan Heywood

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Shaw, Thomas(Hawick, B.)

  Bryce, Rt. Hn. James

  Kitson, Sir James

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Labouchere, Henry

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Burns, John

  Lambert, George

  Slack, John Bamford

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Lamont, Norman

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Caldwell, James

  Langley, Batty

  Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R. (Northants)

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Sullivan, Donal

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Levy, Maurice

  Tennant, Harold John

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Crean, Eugene

  Lough, Thomas

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

  Cremer, William Randal

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Tomkinson, James

  Crombie, John William

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Toulmin, George

  Dalziel, James Henry

  M'Crae, George

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Douglas, Chas. M. (Lanark)

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.)

  Wason, Eugene(Clackmannan)

  Edwards, Frank

  Moss, Samuel

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Elibank, Master of

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Ellice, Capt E. C (SAndrw'sB'ghs

  Murphy, John

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Wills, A. Walters (N. Dorset)

  Findlay, Alex. (Lanark, N. E.)

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Wilson, John(Durham, Mid.)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  O'Brien, Patrick(Kilkenny)

  Wilson, John(Falkirk)

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Wood, James

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Hudd'rsf'd

  Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.

  O'Mara, James

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Partington, Oswald

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Herbert Gladstone and

  Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick)

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Mr. Causton.

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Priestley, Arthur

  Hardie, J. Keir (MerthyrTydvil

  Rea, Russell

  Ordered, That, in order to comply with the Law, the proceedings necessary to dispose of any Supplementary Estimates and Vote A and Vote 1 of the Estimates for the Navy, and of the Ways and Means Resolutions consequential thereon, shall, if not previously disposed of, be brought to a conclusion in the manner hereinafter mentioned:
  At half-past Five of the clock on the 21st day of March next, the Chairman shall forthwith put every Question necessary
  316
  to dispose of the Vote then under consideration, and shall then forthwith put the Question that the total amount of the outstanding Votes for the Civil Service Supplementary Estimates be granted for the services defined in those Estimates, and shall also forthwith put every other Question necessary to dispose of those Votes.
  As soon as the Resolutions so disposed of are reported to the House, the House

  317
  shall forthwith resolve itself into Committee of Ways and Means, and the Chairman shall forthwith put every Question necessary to dispose of any Resolutions proposed in that Committee.
  At Ten of the clock on the 23rd day of March next the Speaker shall forthwith put every Question necessary to dispose of the Report of the Resolution then under consideration, and shall then forthwith put the Question that the House doth agree with the Committee in all Resolutions reported in respect of the Civil Service Supplementary Estimates, and shall then put a like Question on the Resolution reported with respect to the Supplementary Estimates for the Army, and on the Resolutions reported with respect to Vote A and Vote 1 of the Estimates for the Navy.
  On the consideration of the Report from the Committee of Ways and Means, the Speaker shall forthwith put the Question that the House do agree with the Committee in the Resolutions reported.
  And that at half-past Eleven of the clock on the 27th day of March next, the Speaker shall forthwith put any Question necessary to dispose of the Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill; and at Seven of the clock on the 30th day of March next the Speaker shall forthwith put every Question necessary to dispose of the Third Reading of that Bill.
  And that the proceedings on going into Supply on the Army Estimates, and in Committee, and on Report, of Vote A and Vote 7 of those Estimates shall, if not previously disposed of, be brought to a conclusion in the following manner:
  At half-past Six of the clock on the 28th day of March next the Speaker shall forthwith put every Question necessary to dispose of the Motion that the Speaker leave the Chair on going into Supply on the Army Estimates.
  At half-past Six of the clock on the 29th day of March next the Chairman shall forthwith put every Question necessary to dispose of Vote A and Vote 7 of the Army Estimates in Committee.
  At Eleven of the clock on the 30th day of March next the Speaker shall forthwith put every Question necessary to dispose of the Report of the Resolutions with respect to Vote A and Vote 7 of the Army Estimates.
  Until the Business to which this Order relates is concluded the consideration of the Business of Supply at any Sitting at which Government Business has precedence shall not be anticipated by a Motion for Adjournment, and no dilatory Motion shall be received on proceedings on that Business, and the Business shall not be interrupted under any Standing Order.
  Until the Business to which this Order relates is concluded no Business other than Business of Supply shall be taken at any Sitting at which Government Business has precedence.

  SMALL ARMS DEPARTMENT (ENFIELD AND SPARKBROOK).
  Address for Return showing:—

  "(1) The average number of persons employed at the Small Arms Department at Enfield, and the Manufacturing Department at Sparkbrook, respectively, for each of the last ten years, 1895 to 1904, inclusive, showing, separately, the number of the administrative and clerical staff and of the artisans and labourers.

  "(2)The rate of wages paid to the principal classes of workmen at the two Departments above-named, respectively.

  "(3) The rates of sick pay, pension allowance, or bonus, at the two Departments, respectively, if they differ in any way.

  "(4) The price of coal at the two factories respectively, giving, if possible, the average price per ton per annum for the same quality for the last five years.

  "(5) The number of small arms, whether rifles or pistols, of any kind turned out in each year by the two factories respectively.

  319

  "(6) The amount expended during the years 1902–3 and 1903–4 at Spark-brook, in the Manufacturing Department, on new buildings, machinery, engines, and boilers.

  "(7) The same for the Small Arms Department at Enfield.

  "(8) The cost of the same class of rifle made during the last ten years at Enfield and Sparkbrook, respectively.

  "(9) The amount of fixed charges, including rent, rates and taxes, contributions to or provision for religious worship and secular instruction, depreciation on buildings and machinery, interest on capital, etc., debited to the Small Aims Department at Enfield and to the Manufacturing Department at Spark-wood, respectively, for each of the last five years."—(Mr. J. Chamberlain.)

  MR. WHITLEYsaid he desired to make a personal statement on the granting of this Return. In consequence of the appeal made by Mr. Speaker a few nights ago, he did not pursue his objection to this Return any further, but he wished to express his regret that the Government had not seen their way to grant the Return for which he asked, in regard to the Small Arms Department (Sparkbrook) and which, in his opinion, was necessary for a complete statement on the matter. He did not think they ought to grant one Return without presenting the House with the whole information on the matter.

  POST OFFICE SAVINGS BANKS.
  Copy ordered, "of Statement showing the aggregate amount of the liabilities of the Government to depositors in Post Office Savings Banks on the 31st day of December, 1903, and the nature and amount of the securities held by the Commissioners for the Reduction of the
  320
  National Debt to meet those liabilities at that date."—(Mr. Victor Cavendish.)

  AGRICULTURAL RATES ACT, 1896 (GRANTS TO LOCAL AUTHORITIES).
  Return ordered, "showing the amount payable to each of the local authorities in England and Wales who receive a share of the Annual Grant under the Agricultural Rates Act, 1896."—(Mr. Jesse Collings.)
  *THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Sir A. ACLANP-HOOD, Somersetshire, Wellington),in moving the adjournment of the House, said it might be for the convenience of hon. Members if Instated that the Vote on Account would be taken as the First Order on Monday. The first Vote would be that for the Irish Land Commission, the second that for the Colonial Office, and the third that for the Local Government Board. He hoped that would suit the convenience of the House.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELLsaid the last Report they had of the Land Commission was for 1903, and they had not yet received the Report of the Estates Commissioners for the past eighteen months. How did the right hon. Gentleman expect them to discuss the proceedings of the Land Commission if the Government persistently refused to give information to the House?
  MR. JOHN REDMONDsaid he sympathised with the hon. Gentleman in what he said as to the necessity of accelerating the publication of the Report, but he felt bound to say that the Vote was put down for Monday after consultation with him, and, indeed, at his request.
  Adjourned at twenty minutes before One o'clock.