§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £9,005, be 1404 granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1906, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Local Government Board for Scotland (8 and 9 Vie., c. 83; 52 and 53 Vic., c. 50; 57 and 58 Vic., c. 58; 60 and 61 Vic., c. 38; and various other statutes)."
§ MR. EUGENE WASON (Clackmannan and Kinross)said he moved to reduce this Vote because he did not think the Scottish Local Government Board had done what it ought and might have done with reference to the obtaining of allotments for all parts of Scotland. The Parish Councils Act for Scotland which was passed in 1894. and in which was incorporated the Allotment Act for 1405 Scotland, gave power to parish councils to acquire land by agreement for the purposes of granting allotments. If they were unable to obtain land they lad a right to call on the county councils to put the proper machinery in motion, if after inquiry they saw fit to do so, to ensure allotments being granted, and should the county council refuse to do so then they could call upon the Local Government Board for Scotland, which had power to acquire land compulsorily for the purpose of granting allotments. They tad all hoped that the Parish Councils Act of 1894 would have changed the whole face of rural Scotland, but although there had been a great many applications for allotments he could not find from the Returns which had been granted to him in reference to this matter (and this it was to which he wished to direct particular attention) that the Local Government Board had put their compulsory powers into force in one single instance. Leaving out the crofting counties there was only one county in Scotland that had succeeded in obtaining allotments, the county of Wigtonshire. If the Act of 1894 had been administered sympathetically, and if the Local Government Board had done their duty and put pressure on the county councils, the allotments which were so much desired in Scotland would have been obtained, but nothing had been done and he moved the reduction which stood in his name upon the Paper in order to call attention to that fact. Everybody deplored the migration of the population to the towns, and he knew that in Ayrshire it would be almost impossible to get in the harvest now if it were not for the labour which came from Ireland. He hoped the Lord-Advocate would be able to give some explanation of the reasons why the Local Government Board had not done anything with regard to this matter. He begged to move that the Vote be reduced by £100.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £9,805, be granted for the said Service."—(Mr. Eugene Wason.)
§ MR. MUNRO FERGUSONsaid the question raised by the hon. Member was 1406 a very interesting one, and not less interesting because of the fact that the question of allotments in Scotland was rather different to that in this country. The farm servants of Scotland were not so accustomed to the use of allotments as they were in some parts of this country; but in the villages, at all events, there was a good opportunity for the utilisation of the soil in this way. If the Government really wished to extend allotments in Scotland, they would have to approach the subject in various ways. In the first place some stimulus would have to be given to the people themselves to cultivate the soil in this manner. They were not so handy in the cultivation of small patches of soil as were the people of England, and would therefore have to be trained. An extraordinary variety of vegetables was grown in the allotment garden of this country, while the variety grown in Scotland was extremely limited. He believed a good deal might be done by instruction in the schools to tarn the attention of people to the cultivation of small pitches of land, thus giving them a healthy occupation and affording a stimulus for rural life. Then again, while some landlords wore ready and willing to grant allotments voluntarily, others were indifferent and took no interest in the subject, and under those circumstances it was desirable that the local authorities should have some practical knowledge of how to act. They were not so able in Scotland to deal with questions of this kind as in England, owing to their having no knowledge, therefore he thought in connection with the Local Government Board and the Board of Agriculture experts should be available to give advice to local authorities in order to facilitate the carrying out of such a scheme as that to which his hon. friend had drawn attention. Many local authorities could not carry out the provisions of the Allotments or Small Holdings Act, because from want of knowledge, they were not competent to do so. It was a very great pity to see the great farm system of agriculture brought up to the very houses of the towns and villages of Scotland without there being any attempt made to utilise the soil in those towns and villages in the shape of gardens and allotments. He did not think that the 1407 Local Government Board had done much to help Scotland in that regard.
He complained that the constitution of the Local Government Board had not been kept up to date in order to meet the altered conditions of the times. In the matter of pollution of the air and water, for instance, the inspectorship was under the Scottish Office, and he contended that if the Local Government Board were to control the action of the local authorities with regard to pollution, they would be more directly concerned than they were at present with the administration of the Act. There were many aggravated cases of pollution which were very bad for public health, but the Local Government Board had no power to compel those responsible for that pollution to abate the nuisance. In point of fact, the Local Government Board was unable adequately to discharge its functions for want of sufficient powers. Some of the parish councils had suggested that the Local Government Board should convene an annual conference of the parish councils, and there was no doubt that that suggestion was a good one, as it would, if carried out, bring the Local Government Board into closer touch with the local authorities throughout Scotland, and would enable it to give useful information and guidance to the local authorities when they had to deal with large and pressing questions, such as the unemployed. He did not think that the Local Government Board was quite efficient in regard to the auditing of accounts. Allowances were sometimes given on their retirement from the public service to men who were not worthy of them. He mentioned this to show the necessity of a rigorous audit, and he thought it would be a great advantage if the auditing of the accounts of all local authorities was done under a thoroughly reliable system. He did not wish to enlarge upon this subject, but he could not help thinking that after education had been dealt with there was no question of greater interest than that of perfecting the control of local self-government. Most of the great authorities knew very little indeed about central control. There should be no longer any difficulty in attaching responsibility to proper persons in a case of a serious outbreak of 1408 preventable disease, but that was where hitherto the central authority had failed. Although the right hon. Gentleman was not in favour of inquiry, he would venture to suggest once more that there was room for inquiry into the working of the Local Government Board in Scotland, and as to how it should be brought into closer relations with the different local authorities and made more efficient.
§ * MR. MACONOCHIE (Aberdeenshire, E.)said he differed from the hon. Member for Mid-Lanark, who stated that they had more money in Scotland than they knew what to do with. Very few men over the border would agree with the hon. Member, for there were many parts of Scotland where they would be glad to have more money to expend for public purposes. The system followed in many parts of Scotland was for the farm worker to receive so much meal and potatoes from his employer, but he did not know that that was as satisfactory as the system of allotments in England, and he was sure that anything that could be done to promote the system of allotments in Scotland would be very much appreciated. As to the administration of the Poor Law, he maintained that it would bear comparison in Scotland with anything of the kind in England. He did not think any man in the House would stand up and say that there was any business in the country which could not be improved. No doubt the Local Government Board in Scotland could be improved, and he should he very proud if anything could be done to enable it to assist the people of Scotland, but if they expected to do it in a moment, without any notice whatever, he did not think they would be very successful in what they wanted to obtain. He did not know that in regard to the unemployed in Scotland there was very much to complain of. There was a certain amount of want of employment in some districts, but he did not think that was due to the action of the capitalists or the workmen. So far as the people in the North were concerned, the only thing they wanted was the opportunity of earning money. As to the question of consumption, he did not think it was disputed that that disease was infectious. In most localities infectious diseases 1409 hospitals had been erected. If any English Member would take the trouble to visit Scotland and examine the methods of Poor Law administration and hospital management he would admit that for every twenty shillings expended the value of a sovereign was obtained. He did not think it was fair to twit the local bodies in Scotland with extravagance.
§ MR. BLACKsaid that one result of the pressure brought to bear on the parish councils by the Local Government Board was that the number of paupers in the poorhouses had very much increased. In 1868 the total number of paupers in Scotland with their dependents was 130,441, and of these the total number in the poorhouses was 8,774. From a Blue-book recently published it appeared that the total number of paupers in 1904 was 91,240, and of these there were in the poorhouses 12,827. The children who were boarded out, and who for the purpose of comparison could not be reckoned as outdoor paupers, numbered 6,455, making the total number of indoor paupers 19,282. He agreed that excellent results were being obtained from the system of boarding out children. He would remind English Members that in Scotland there was no need to offer the house as a test of the bona fides of the applicants for relief because in that country a man, in order to be entitled to poor relief, must be either a lunatic, or over sixty-five years of age. What was the result of the continuous pressure brought to bear on the Poor Law authorities to put people in the house rather than give them relief outside? The test of a successful inspector of poor was that he should have no outdoor people at all, and that all paupers should be in the house. He knew of a case of a widow with four sons who was refused outdoor relief, and had to go into the house. How much better it would have been from the point of view of keeping the population on the land if that poor widow had been allowed to keep her own home and bring up her family! He was sure that cases of that kind could be multiplied throughout the country. Was it really wise policy that the present system should be continued? If that was true in regard to the ordinary 1410 adult, it was doubly true in regard to the aged. This Government came into office in 1885 on a promise to give old-age pensions, but instead of fulfilling that promise they had pursued the system of forcing poor people into the house. It was lamentable that these old people should be forced into the house and compelled to stay there. It was a state of matters which was not creditable and the system ought to be revised. It was sometimes argued that the old people were better looked after in the house than they would be in their own homes. But, after all, that was a matter for the poor people themselves. He was not putting forward the statement that they were not well cared for in the poorhouse, but if they preferred to stay outside why should not arrangements be made which would enable them to do so? While indoor paupers cost £9 9s. 2d, outdoor relief only cost £6 11s. per head, so that neither economy nor goodness of heart was on the side of the Local Government Board.
§ * SIR HUGH SHAW-STEWART (Renfrew, E.)said he did not think the mover or the seconder of the Amendment had adduced any argument why the Local Government Board should be censured in regard to the question of allotments. If censure was to be passed anywhere it was upon the Scottish people who had not demanded allotments.
§ MR. EUGENE WASONBut they have.
§ * SIR HUGH SHAW-STEWARTsaid the hon. Member had recited a list of counties where the demand had come from, but he thought that, excluding the crofting counties, there were only three or four.
§ MR. EUGENE WASONsaid there were twelve or fourteen counties, and he lived in one of them.
§ * SIR HUGH SHAW-STEWARTsaid the county the demand came from most was Wigtonshire, where it was admitted the matter had been fully dealt with. The hon. Member opposite would agree 1411 with him that the demand for allotments had been infinitely small in Scotland as compared with England. He wished there was a greater demand for allotments in Scotland. Who were most likely to wish for allotments in Scotland? The population of that country might be divided into the extremely rural and the entirely urban. The extremely rural population did not want to spend its spare time in digging gardens. That population consisted chiefly of farm labourers who worked hard all day and wanted something else to do than digging gardens at the end of their day's work. It was different in the towns. It would be a wholesome and a happy thing if those engaged in urban occupations turned their attention and their energy to working in gardens in the evening. But in the case of burghs and cities the providing of allotments, in his opinion, fell more within the province of the burgh and city authorities. He suggested to hon. Members opposite that it would be a very good thing to induce the urban population to engage in gardening, but he did not think their Bill for the taxation of land values was one that was very likely to assist their efforts.
§ * MR. FINDLAY (Lanarkshire, N. E)said he wished to emphasise what had been said in regard to the administration of the Poor Law. It was quite true that in many cases it was well to offer the "house" instead of outdoor relief. At the same time there were instances where that involved hardship. He mentioned a case which recently came within his own knowledge of a widow with four young children, who on making application for relief was only granted 7s. 6d. a week. The case was brought before the Local Government Board, which expressed sympathy in the matter, but took no steps to enforce its own recommendation. There being no other power to compel the local board to increase the allowance, the woman was offered the poorhouse, but did not accept it. He thought hon. Members would agree that the allowance which was granted was not in any way adequate for such a case, and that every consideration, patriotic or otherwise, showed that in the case of a widow with four children who was trying to keep her 1412 home together and to maintain independence, which so many Scottish, people cherished, there should be some power which could intervene in order that proper outdoor provision should be made for deserving cases. He urged that in future better arrangements should be made for dealing with such cases. In this special case the treatment which was given to the widow was very unfeeling.
§ MR. JOHN WILSON (Glasgow, St. Rollox)said that in regard to Poor Law administration in Scotland there was no fault to be found with the local authorities or the Local Government Board. It would be a great mistake if the Local Government Board were to interfere in all the cases where people might feel dissatisfied with the action of the local authorities.
§ * MR. WEIRsaid that the people in Ross-shire were badly in want of allotments, but they did not get them. He thought that the suggestion of the hon. Member for Clackmannan was an excellent one, namely, that something should be done to give the people in the remoter districts light and leading in this matter. They were anxious to get allotments attached to their cottages on which they might be able to grow vegetables. Under the Act passed in 1894 the Local Government Board in Scotland was empowered to employ medical inspectors. He had asked for a medical inspector for the Island of Lewis, but the Answer given him was that there was only one medical inspector in the whole of Scotland. Now, Ireland, with a smaller population than Scotland, had seven medical inspectors. The Island of Lewis had been grossly neglected by the Local Government Board of Scotland. Within the last few days he had been informed that one of His Majesty's inspectors of schools had been instructed to report, in conjunction with a local medical officer of health, on the sanitary condition of some of the schools in Lewis. During the year 1903 as many as 127 schools were closed in the Crofting Counties for periods of one to four months owing to epidemics. There were fifty-three schools on the mainland of Ross and Cromarty alone, 1413 and of these forty had no water supply laid on, and in many of the schools the ventilation was bad. He asked the right hon. and learned Gentleman to insist on the Local Government Board arranging for a proper supply of water in the schools, efficient ventilation, and an improvement in the other sanitary arrangements. He hoped, indeed, that the Local Government Board would give more attention than they had hitherto impossible for one medical inspector to a efficiently inspect the schools in the Highlands, much less the schools of the whole country. The result of this neglect of thorough inspection by the Local Government Board was that epidemics had broken out, and that many schools had been closed from one to four months in the year. It was most unfair to the children that, for lack of proper sanitary arrangements, the schools should be shut up in this manner for so long; and he trusted that there would be a thorough inquiry into the whole matter. It was most undesirable that children in remote country districts—some of them as young as five years of age—should be compelled to traverse wild and rugged moors in stormy weather to attend these schools. Many of these children were often without food and had to sit for hours in wet clothes. Surely something should be done to ameliorate these conditions, and that school boards in the Crofting area should have the power to extend the age for attendance at school from five to seven.
§ * MR. WEIRsaid that this was a matter of hearth, and it was the duty of the Local Government Board to see that proper sanitary precautions were taken and that a supply of water was laid on to every school. The old sleepy system was being carried on by the Local Government Board. He had brought the question of uncertified deaths in 1414 the Highlands of Scotland before the House on previous occasions. He was glad to say that there had been a slight improvement of late; but the state of things was still one which would not be tolerated in this country. There were not sufficient doctors in the Island of Lewis. Some time since, on visiting a manse in the island, he found the minister ill. Fortunately he had a London physician, with him, otherwise it would have been necessary to send to Stornoway, forty-five miles distant, for a doctor. No wonder that under such circumstances there were so many uncertified deaths in the Highlands. Then as to the question of vaccination, the use of humanised lymph taken from the arms of children had been abolished in this country, yet it was tolerated in the Highlands. The use of humanised lymph had been condemned by the highest medical authorities, and he insisted that it should be absolutely abolished; and that a sufficient supply of glycerinated calf lymph should be provided by the Local Government Board, not only to all parochial doctors, but to every medical practitioner who wished to purchase it.
§ MR. CHARLES DOUGLAS (Lanarkshire, N. W.)said he wished to urge the desirability of the Local Government Board initiating some degree of common action amongst bodies such as the Prison Commissioners and the Lunacy Board. One of the greatest difficulties and hardships of those engaged in unskilled labour arose from the presence among them of people who were unable to maintain themselves and who constituted a perpetual difficulty in the labour market, and were a drag upon more capable and industrious persons. The time had come when some systematic way of dealing with this population should be adopted at central headquarters, because it could not be done by anyone else. The Government ought to try to devise some more systematic way of dealing with those particular sections of the community. There was another matter upon which the Local Government Board for 1415 Scotland had been somewhat remiss—he alluded to the attitude they had taken up towards the desire of the municipalities of Scotland to have some full and careful consultation in regard to the treatment of the unemployed. It was most desirable that when a crisis was not acute they should consider carefully what measures ought to be taken to deal with such crises as that which occurred last winter, and which might recur next winter. The local authorities had their own views as to the steps which ought to be taken. They desired to consult the Local Government Board and to hold conferences with them upon the subject in order that they might consider the various aspects of the question. It was regrettable that such an opportunity had been allowed to slip by. There ought to be special consultations between the local administrators and the Local Government Board in order that they might be prepared to deal with important problems like this. He was sure that the Local Government Board would increase its usefulness if it would place itself in closer relation with the other boards and local authorities in order to thresh out these questions when the opportunity offered.
§ MR. KEIR HARDIE (Merthyr Tydvi)asked whether the Local Government Board of Scotland did not intend to issue a circular on the treatment of the unemployed analogous to that which had been issued in England. In Scotland nothing whatever had been done and no advice or guidance had been given by the Local Government Board. Although responsible authorities and great municipalities like Glasgow, Aberdeen, Leith, and other places had met together in conference and agreed to send representatives to the Scottish Office on 1416 this question they had been practically ignored. He hoped that they would have some assurance from the Lord-Advocate that some measure, equivalent to the one now before the House, dealing with the unemployed question in Scotland would be promoted by the Local Government Board, so that when the winter came on and the unemployed question became acute the local authorities would be in a better position to deal with the distress. The Local Government Board would not do its duty if it did not also, in Scotland, take the same action as had been taken in England with regard to the underfeeding of school children. A joint circular had been issued by the Local Government Board and the Education Department in England pointing out to the local authorities and the boards of guardians that they were jointly responsible for making provision for destitute and hungry children. The need for doing this was quite as urgent in Scotland as in England. He was aware that the law in Scotland was more restricted than in England, but he felt that if the Local Government Board would exert itself and approach this question in the same sympathetic spirit as had characterised the recent attempt of the Local Government Board for England and Wales, more could be done than had been done up to the present, and the people of Scotland would not feel that they had been neglected and that England and Wales had been given favoured treatment.
MR. SCOTT DICKSONsaid he noticed in the Returns with regard to allotments for 1902 such entries as—
the parish council did not consider that there was any general demand for allotments in the parish,1417 and—the county council resolved not to take proceedings, and the parish council acquiesced in this decison.These particular entries were from Ayrshire, but they were typical of the whole country. He thought they showed that there was no great desire for allotments on the part of the people of Scotland. The Local Government Board would be glad to see the Allotments Act put more into operation, and, therefore, they were quite willing to issue to the parish councils a circular calling attention to the matter if it were thought calculated to increase the distribution of allotments.The hon. Member for Leith had spoken of the powers of the Local Government Board with regard to preventing pollution. At the time when he was a member of the Local Government Board he remembered that some very serious questions were raised upon the question of pollution in one of the counties with which the hon. Member was specially connected, and he could assure the Committee that it was no easy matter under the present law to deal with the question, and it was certainly not an economical process to bring the law into operation. The powers of the Local Government Board in regard to this question were very limited, and they were anxious to do everything possible to secure an improvement. The Local Government Board had done their best in the matter, and he was sure that the local authorities quite appreciated the situation and were ready to second their efforts with a view to obtaining some amelioration of the state of things existing at the present time. With reference to what had been said about auditing, that was a very thorny question, and he 1418 was afraid that the efforts of the Local Government Board to secure an effective audit were not always appreciated. The Local Government Board, however, had been consistent in this matter, and in many respects they had been able to bring about a better state of things than previously existed.
With regard to the general question of Poor Law administration which had been raised by the hon. Member for Banffshire, he thought that the suggestion that there had been an inordinate increase in the number of aged poor in the workhouses was not based upon information that was accurate. But even if the suggestion were well founded, it was evidence of improvement in the administration of the workhouses in Scotland. In his view it would be better for the aged poor to be in the workhouses, where they would be properly attended to, than left outside often alone and unattended. The hon. Member for Cromarty complained that there was only one medical inspector. That was true. But, so far as the Local Government Board were aware, one medical inspector was able sufficiently to discharge the duties that fell upon him, and there was no justification for appointing additional medical inspectors. An investigation was being made in regard to the water supply of the particular schools in which the hon. Member was interested with a view to seeing whether any change was necessary, and whether, if a change was necessary, it could be carried out at a reasonable cost. The Local Government Board were most anxious to secure the services of an additional number of medical men in the Highland districts, and efforts had been made to improve the condition of things in that respect. The Local Government 1419 Board were doing everything that was possible to secure that burial grounds that ought to be closed should be closed and to induce the local authorities to provide new burial grounds and thus remove ground for complaint.
With regard to vaccination, they were not troubled with the conscientious objector in Scotland.
§ MR. WEIRsaid there could be no such person as a conscientious objector in Scotland. The parents must either allow their children to be vaccinated or go to gaol.
MR. SCOTT DICKSONIn Scotland a few vaccinators still asked for humanised lymph, of which a small supply was always available. He found that in the Report of the Local Government Board for 1904 they stated that the proportion of humanised lymph remained about the same as before. The figures for the hon. Member's own county were calf lymph 514, humanised lymph 21; and for all Scotland the figures were calf lymph 3,085, and humanised lymph 154. Some parents preferred humanised lymph, and the Local Government Board desired to fall in with the views of the parents.
The hon. Member for North-West Lanark had suggested that the Local Government Board ought to assist co-operation among the various boards. That was a matter that could not be brought about without legislation. So far as the treatment of the unemployed question and the feeding of children were concerned, the Scottish Local Government Board had nothing like the powers that the English Local Government Board possessed. But in regard to the question of the 1420 unemployed, adequate provision had been made in the past by the voluntary efforts of the large local authorities concerned. The Local Government Board appreciated the importance of the question, and had no idea of losing sight of it. The feeding of children was a matter entirely beyond their power under the Act of 1894, but it was a question that would receive, as it deserved, their most careful consideration.
§ * MR. WEIRasked for an explanation with regard to the salary of the medical inspector, which, according to the Estimates, appeared to have decreased in amount instead of rising by the sum of the annual increment of £25.
§ MR. CALDWELLpointed out that the Reports of the Local Government Board gave the percentage of paupers, indoor and outdoor together, of sixty-five years of age and upwards as 39.8; there were also 7,433 children, and 26,233, or 46.8 per cent., between the ages of fourteen, and sixty-five. The test of the poorhouse was applied particularly to the old people, in order to secure support for them from their families. It was not applied to men unwilling to work, because, according to the law of Scotland, men who were able to work were not entitled to relief. Personally, when connected with the administration of the Poor Law, he had always endeavoured to have as few people as possible in the poorhouse. There were doubtless cases in which, through the inability of persons to look after themselves and the absence of relatives to do for them, it was better that poorhouse relief should be given, but as a rule the poorhouse was not resorted to under good administration 1421 except in special cases. He hoped the Lord-Advocate would see that future Reports of the Board of Supervision gave fuller statistics as to the ages of people in the poorhouse, so that it could be more easily seen whether the aged inmates were increasing in number. One reason why a larger number of aged poor might be expected in the poorhouse was the increasing difficulty experienced by old people in obtaining employment. Formerly partially disabled or aged persons did certain light work, or odd jobs, for which they received a few shillings a week, and were thus able to keep out of the poorhouse, but now all labour was in the hands of the able-bodied between the ages of eighteen and forty-five or so, and full trade-union rate of wages had to be paid. That being so, a state of things was arising in connection with these old people who were able to do a certain amount of work, which would have to be dealt with. He believed the local boards, with the sanction of the Department were relaxing the rigidity of the law, and, therefore, he failed to see why the Lord-Advocate should be so unsympathetic and refuse to meet a conference on the subject.
MR. SCOTT DICKSONsaid the explanation asked for by the hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty was that a fresh appointment had been made, and naturally the newly-appointed official started at a lower salary than had been paid to his predecessor. With regard to the aged poor, his point was that he could not find any figures enabling him to say whether there had been an increase in the number of the indoor paupers is the figures given drew no distinction between indoor and outdoor. But, so 1422 far as the figures went, they did not justify the suggestion that there was any increase in the proportion of indoor paupers. The difficulty experienced by old men in getting employment might point in that direction, but the figures showed that in regard to all paupers, indoor and out, there was a diminution in the number over sixty-five years of age. The percentages were: in 1901, 42.37; in 1902, 42.72; in 1903, 42.16; and in 1904, 39.87; the actual numbers for the same years being 32,157, 32,017, 32,139, and 32,331 respectively.
MR. SCOTT DICKSONsaid that taking the growth of pauperism and the growth of the population there was a net decrease in the number of paupers over sixty five-years of age. He repudiated the suggestion of want of sympathy put forward by the hon. Member for Mid-Lanark. He regarded the question as one of great gravity which would have to be considered and dealt with sympathetically, and there was no desire on the part of the Local Government Board to avoid the consideration of the matter.
§ MR. MUNRO FERGUSONsaid that in times of depression in Scotland, as in England, works were hastily improvised for the relief of the unemployed, in connection with which the money spent might frequently be better employed and the labour directed into more useful channels. Attempts had been made to deal with such emergencies elsewhere 1423 and he thought it very desirable that the Local Government Board in Scotland should study the efforts which had been made with a view to being better able to deal with any emergency that might arise.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 59; Noes, 114, (Division List No. 205.)
1425| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) | Ferguson, R.C. Munro (Leith) | Pirie, Duncan V. |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Griffith, Ellis J. | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Asher, Alexander | Hardie, J.Keir (Merthyr Tydvil | Runciman, Walter |
| Bright, Allan Heywood | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) |
| Brown, George M (Edinburgh) | Higham, John Sharp | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Hutchinson, Dr. Chas. Fredk. | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Buxton,N.E (York NR. Whitby) | Lamont, Norman | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) |
| Caldwell, James | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) | Sullivan, Donal |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Cheetham, John Frederick | Lough, Thomas | Tennant, Harold John |
| Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark) | Lundon, W. | Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) |
| Cremer, William Randal | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Villiers, Ernest Amherst |
| Delany, William | M'Crae, George | Weir, James Galloway |
| Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Dobbie, Joseph | Murphy, John | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Doogan, P. C. | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Douglas, Chas. M. (Lanark) | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid.) | |
| Ellice, Capt EC(S Andrws'Bghs | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. |
| Evans, Samuel T (Glamorgan) | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N. | Eugene Wason and Mr. |
| Eve, Harry Trelawney | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) | Black. |
| NOES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Davenport, William Bromley | Majendie, James A. H. |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Dickson, Charles Scott | Maxwell, Rt HnSirH.E. (Wigt'n |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers | Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants) |
| Arnold-Forster, Rt. HuHwgh O. | Dyke, Rt Hn. Sir Wm. Hart | Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) |
| Arrol, Sir William | Fergusson, Rt. Hn Sir J (Manc'r | Morrell, George Herbert |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Fielden, Edward Brockclehurst | Morrison, James Archibald |
| Bain, Col. James Robert | Finch, Rt. Hn. George H. | Mount, William Arthur |
| Balcarres, Lord | Finlay, Sir R.B (Inv'rn'ss B'ghs | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A J. (Manch'r | Fisher, William Hayes | Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey | Forster, Henry William | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) |
| Balfour,Rt Hn Gerald W(Leeds | Gardner, Ernest | Nicholson, William Graham |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. | Percy, Earl |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Gordon, Hn. J. E (Elgin & Nairn | Plummer, Sir Walter R. |
| Beach, RtHn Sir Michael Hicks | Goschen, Hn. George Joachim | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Purvis, Robert |
| Bhownaggrce, Sir M. M. | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury | Randles, John S. |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Hamilton,Marq of L'nd'nderry | Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine |
| Bill, Charles | Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford) | Renwick, George |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Bond, Edward | Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley | Round, Rt. Hon. James |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hn. St. John | Heath, Sir Jan. (Staffords. NW | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) |
| Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H. | Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh. | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Sackville, Col. S G. Stopford |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir J. H. | Shaw-Stewart, Sir H.(Renfrew |
| Chamberlain, Rt.HnJ A (Wore. | Kerr, John | Skewes-Cox, Thomas |
| Chapman, Edward | Keswick, William | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford,East |
| Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow | Smith,Rt HnJ Parker (Lanarks |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) | Spear, John Ward |
| Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Lee,Arthur H.(Hants,Fareham | Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lancs.) |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow | Long, Rt Hn Walter (Bristol, S. | Stock, James Henry |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Lucas, Reginald J (Portsmouth | |
| Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | Stroyan, John |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool | Talbot, Lord E (Chichester) |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Tuff, Charles | Welby, Sir Chas G. E (Notts | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir |
| Tuke, Sir John Batty | Whiteley, H. (Ashton undLyne | Alexander Acland-Hood |
| Turnour, Viscount | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R | and Viscount Valentia. |
| Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir Win. H. | Wilson, John (Glasgow) | |
| Warde, Colonel C. E. | Wylie, Alexander |
Motion made, and Question, "That this House do now adjourn"—(Sir A. Acland-Hood)—put, and agreed to.