§ As amended (by the Standing Committee) considered.
§ MR. T. W. RUSSELL (Tyrone, S.), on behalf of the hon. Member for West Donegal, moved the Amendment standing in his name.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 2, line 31, after the word 'or,' to insert the word 'knowingly.'"—(Mr. T. W. Russell.).
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
§ COLONEL NOLAN (Galway, N.)objected. He had, he said, intended to move an Amendment to Clause 11, which he understood had been put in solely at the instance of publicans. It would unfairly penalise sober people. It provided that a sober person who went into a public-house and offered a glass of beer to another man might be subject to fine and imprisonment. The Bill 1498 was no doubt aimed at drunken persons, but surely, in view of the difficulty or telling when a man was drunk, the clause should be more definite. He suggested it required the addition of the word "obviously" before the words "drunken person." The difficulty was to decide when a man was drunk. He had had to do that thousands of times, but different people held different views. One thought a man excited by a single glass of beer was drunk: another held that he must be totally incapable before he could be so described. No man would be safe under the Bill if he went into a public-house and offered to stand a drink. He was not in favour of the habit of standing drinks all round: but he had stood drinks in his time—no not at an Election—because that was dangerous and petitions might be in the air—but he did think the clause ought to have been more carefully constructed, and under the circumstances he should feel it his duty to vote against the Bill unless Clause 11 was amended.
§ MR. T. W. RUSSELLsaid the clause had been inserted at the request of the Dublin Publicans' Society for the protection of publicans, who complained that, while they were liable to punishment for serving a drunken man, it often occurred that the drink was called for by a perfectly sober man and given to, a drunken person, and it was not fair that they should be penalised in that case. He hoped the Bill would under the circumstances be read a third time.
§ SIR ALBERT ROLLIT (Islington' S.)agreed that the wording of the clause was too drastic. In reply to the question raised by a previous speaker, there was no such provision in the English licensing law. While he was not prepared to oppose the Third Reading he did feel sorry that the hon. Member had lost his opportunity of moving his very proper Amendment.
§ COLONEL NOLANasked if he could move to re-commit the Bill in respect of Clause 11.
§ MR. SPEAKERSuch a Motion would be in order but the hon. and gallant Member could not make it as he has exhausted his right of speech.
§ THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. JAMES CAMPBELL, Dublin University)undertook to introduce the word "knowingly" in another place, so as to make it punishable for a man to knowingly give drink to a drunken person."
§ COLONEL NOLANI should prefer the words to a "manifestly drunken person."
§ MR. JAMES CAMPBELLfeared that that would lead to considerable difficulties of interpretation.
§ MR. JOSEPH DEVLIN (Kilkenny, N.)urged the hon. and gallant Member to accept the offer of the Government. He quite sympathised with him, and concurred that anything which was the outcome of an agreement between the trade and the temperance party should have been viewed with special suspicion by the Government.
§ MR. NOLAN (Louth, S.)said it had been stated in the debate that the publicans of Ireland had been consulted with regard to the provisions of this Bill, and that they were in favour of it. He accepted that statement in good faith, and he, for one, should not attempt to challenge either the honesty or the intelligence of the publicans of Ireland. He knew that many of the publicans of Ireland were highly respectable and intelligent men and good citizens, but, with all due respect both to the publicans of Ireland, who appeared to have been consulted, and all the other people who had been and were still connected with the pressing forward of this measure, he ventured to say that this Bill was uncalled for, ill-considered, mischievous in its provisions, and offensive to every Irishman who had any regard for the fair fame of his country. The very title "Drunkenness (Ireland) Bill" was offensive. If there was one man in Ireland who indulged to excess in strong drink he should say that there was too much drunkenness in Ireland. Unfortunately there was more 1500 than one person who indulged in strong drink in Ireland, but he utterly denied that the number who indulged to excess in Ireland was any greater than in England, Scotland, or Wales. Therefore, he resented any special measure of this kind being brought forward to deal with drunkenness in Ireland which was not applicable to Great Britain as well. He was proud to say that there were at the present time healthy influences at work which were bringing about a very great change in the habits of the people of Ireland in regard to indulging in strong drink. Although those influences might not be of such a sweeping character, yet he believed that the steady growth of the temperance movement in Ireland, based upon moderation and religious suasion, would have a far more beneficial effect than any coercive measures of this character which might be passed by this House. He considered this Act, if passed, would be an addition to the long list of coercive Acts which had been applied to Ireland. This measure in its former stages appeared to have been smuggled through the House. It was not debated on the Second Reading, and it had been got through after midnight in a hole-and-corner way without the knowledge of the majority of the Members of the Irish Party in the House.
§ MR. T. W. RUSSELLThe Second Reading was passed on the Motion of the hon. Member for Donegal on a Friday afternoon.
§ MR. NOLANsaid it got through Committee in the same way. Clause 13 would compel a husband to give evidence against his wife, and the wife to give evidence against her husband. To his mind such a proposal was an outrage upon family life and the social relations which existed in Ireland. So far as families in Ireland were concerned, the proposals in this Bill were an outrage on common sense. He moved, as an Amendment, "That the Bill be recommitted to a Committee of the whole House in respect of Amendments to Clauses 11 and 13."
§ MR. JOHN WILSON (Glasgow, St. Rollox)seconded the Amendment.
§
Amendment proposed—
To leave out from the word 'be,' to the end of the Question, and add the words 'recommitted to a Committee of the whole House in respect of Clauses 11 and 13.'"—(Mr. Nolan.)
§ Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
§ MR. MOONEY (Dublin County, S.)supported the Amendment. He said Clause 13 would compel a wife to give evidence
§ against her husband, and a husband to give evidence against his wife. He did not believe that there was a provis on of that kind in any English Act of a similar character. He thought his hon. friend was quite justified in moving the recommittal of this Bill.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 137; Noes, 22. (Division List No. 251.)
1503| AYES. | ||
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Gordon, Hn J E (Elgin & Nairn) | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid) |
| Allen, Charles P. | Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) | O'Dowd, John |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N. |
| Baker, Joseph Allen | Hammond, John | Parrott, William |
| Balcarres, Lord | Hayden, John Patrick | Partington, Oswald |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Hayter, Rt Hn. Sir Arthur D. | Philipps, John Wynford |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Helder, Augustus | Pilkington, Colonel Richard |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Pryce-Jones, Lt. Col. Edward |
| Bell, Richard | Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. | Reddy, M. |
| Boland, John | Higham, John Sharp | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Bowles, Lt-Col H F (Middlesex) | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | Reid, Sir R Threshie (Dumfries |
| Brigg, John | Howard, J. (Kent, Faversham | Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine |
| Bright, Allan Heywood | Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) |
| Burns, John | Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk. | Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) |
| Burt, Thomas | Jacoby, James Alfred | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Butcher, John George | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Round, Rt. Hn. James |
| Buxton, NE(York, NR, Whitby) | Joicey, Sir James | Samuel, Herb. L. (Cleveland) |
| Caldwell, James | Jones, David B. (Swansea) | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| Cameron, Robert | Jones, William (Carnarvonsh. | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
| Campbell, Rt Hn J A (Glasgow) | Joyce, Michael | Shaw-Stewart, Sir H (Renfrew |
| Campbell, J H M (Dublin Univ. | Kitson, Sir James | Sheehy, David |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Lambert, George | Slack, John Bamford |
| Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Lamont, Norman | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H. | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Spear, John Ward |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh. | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall | Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart |
| Cawley, Frederick | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) | Sullivan, Donal |
| Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Leng, Sir John | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow | Lewis, John Herbert | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr |
| Cripps, Charles Alfred | Lloyd-George, David | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway | Lucas, Reginald J (Portsmouth | Tomkinson, James |
| Dickinson, Robert Edmond | Lyell, Charles Henry | Toulmin, George |
| Dilke, Rt. Hn. Sir Charles | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Donelan, Captain A. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Turnour, Viscount |
| Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Vincent, Col Sir C E H (Sheffield) |
| Duffy, William J. | M'Kenna, Reginald | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Martin, Richard Biddulph | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan |
| Dunn, Sir William | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. | Welby, Lt. Col. A C E. (Taunton) |
| Edwards, Frank | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Fellowes, Rt. Hn Ailwyn Edw. | Moss, Samuel | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Fenwick, Charles | Mount, William Arthur | Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong. |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Mobray, Sir Robert Gray C. | |
| Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S. W.) | Murphy, John | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. T. W. Russell and Mr. Edward Mitchell. |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J. | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Nussey, Thomas Willans | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F | Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Doogan, P. C. |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Cullinan, J. | Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W. |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon | Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J (Manc'r |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Finch, Rt. Hn. George H. | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Stanley, Edward Jas (Somerset |
| Flower, Sir Ernest | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | Tuff, Charles |
| Flynn, James Christopher | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. | Pease, Herb Pike (Darlington) | |
| Greene, Henry D (Shrewsbury | Purvis, Robert | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Mooney and Mr. Nolan. |
| Groves, James Grimble | Rankin, Sir James | |
| Lundon, W. | Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye |
§ Main Question put.
1504§ The House divided:—Ayes, 147; Noes, 18. (Division List No. 252.)
1505| AYES. | ||
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Gordon, Hn J. E. (Elgin & Nairn | Philipps, John Wynford |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) | Pilkington, Colonel Richard |
| Allen, Charles P. | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hn. John | Hammond, John | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Hayden, John Patrick | Reddy, M. |
| Balcarres, Lord | Helder, Augustus | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H. | Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Higham, John Sharp | Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Hogg, Lindsay | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Bell, Richard | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) |
| Boland, John | Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham | Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) |
| Brigg, John | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye |
| Bright, Allan Heywood | Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk. | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Jacoby, James Alfred | Round, Rt. Hon. James |
| Burns, John | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Samuel, Herb. L. (Cleveland) |
| Burt, Thomas | Joicey, Sir James | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| Butcher, John George | Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire | Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford) |
| Buxton, N E (York, N R, Whitby | Joyce, Michael | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
| Caldwell, James | Kilbride, Denis | Shaw-Stewart, Sir H. (Renfrew |
| Cameron, Robert | Kimber, Sir Henry | Sheehy, David |
| Campbell, Rt Hn J A (Glasgow) | Kitson, Sir James | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Campbell, J. H M (Dublin Univ. | Lambert, George | Slack, John Bamford |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Lamont, Norman | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Smith, Samuel (Flint) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh. | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) | Spear, John Ward |
| Cawley, Frederick | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset) |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) | Sullivan, Donal |
| Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Leng, Sir John | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Lewis, John Herbert | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow | Lloyd-George, David | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsm'th) | Tomkinson, James |
| Cremer, William Randal | Lyell, Charles Henry | Toulmin, George |
| Cripps, Charles Alfred | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Tuff, Charles |
| Crooks, William | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Cullinan, J. | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Turnour, Viscount |
| Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway | Martin, Richard Biddulph | Valentia, Viscount |
| Dilke, Rt. Hn. Sir Charles | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. | Vincent, Col. Sir C E H (Sheffield |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen | Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S |
| Douglas, Chas. M. (Lanark) | Moss, Samuel | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Duffy, William J. | Mount, William Arthur | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Dunn, Sir William | Murphy, John | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Edwards, Frank | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Fellowes, Rt Hn Ailwyn Edward | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart |
| Fenwick, Charles | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | |
| Fergusson, Rt. Hn Sir J. (Manc'r | O'Dowd, John | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. T. W. Russell and Mr. Edward Mitchell. |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | |
| Flower, Sir Ernest | Parrott, William | |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hn Herbert John | Partington, Oswald | |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F | Baker, Joseph Allen | Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W. |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Banner, John S. Harmood- | Finch, Rt. Hn. George H. |
| Allsopp, Hon. George | Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon | Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. |
| Austin, Sir John | Doogan, P. C. | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury |
| Groves, James Grimble | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Colonel Nolan and Mr. Mooney. |
| Lundon, W. | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W | |
| Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Purvis, Robert |
Question put, and agreed to.