§ Considered in Committee.
§ (In the Committee.)
§ [Mr. GRANT LAWSON (Yorkshire, N. R. Thirsk) in the Chair.
§ Clause 1:—
§ Motion made and Question proposed, "That the clause stand part of the Bill."
§ MR. DALZIEL (Kirkcaldy. Burghs) moved to report Progress. He said that hon. Members had not had notice that the Bill would be taken. A few nights ago when the Government announced that the Bill would be taken, many Members interested in the matter waited, but to-night, not at all expecting it would come on, they had gone home. He submitted that, under the circumstances, it would be very unfair to take the Committee stage without notice.
§ Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress; and ask leave to sit again."
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN, Worcestershire, E.)said that when the Bill was put down the other night he was asked by hon. Gentlemen opposite not to take it that night. The measure was one for which there was urgency, and, as no object would be gained by postponement, he hoped the Committee would now proceed with the consideration of the clause.
§ MR. DALZIELsaid he was sure the communication with the other side was not made through the ordinary official channels.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINA right hon. Gentleman on the Front Bench opposite leaned across the Table and said, "I suppose you will not take the Bill to-night?"
§ MR. DALZIELdid not regard that as a representation; it was merely a request for information. The right hon. Gentleman would get his Bill much 878 more easily if he gave twenty-four hours notice.
§ MR. LOUGH (Islington, N.)hoped the right hon. Gentleman would accede to the request of his hon. friend. Nothing would be gained by pressing the Bill to-night, and it was only reasonable that some notice should be given.
§ MAJOR SEELY (Isle of Wight)said there was something peculiarly inappropriate in taking this Bill without notice. This year a Consolidated Fund Bill had been brought forward in a manner contrary to all precedent, and methods had been adopted that were contrary to good finance. It was therefore essential that the Consolidated Fund (No. 2) Bill should not be taken without due notice.
§ MR. CHURCHILL (Oldham)asked whether the Committee were not to have any Answer from the Leader of the House. A request, couched in extremely moderate language, had been made that the Bill should be postponed for a day. It was extremely inconvenient that so important a matter should be thrust upon the Committee after midnight. If the right hon. Gentleman's desire was to get the measure through by a covert manœuvre he thought it possible that the discussion might be protracted till quite a late hour in the morning. The Prime Minister really treated the House with utter contempt. The right hon. Gentleman hardly ever condescended to enter the House during the ordinary course of business except for the purpose of proposing some gagging Resolution. If no Answers were to be obtained to reasonable Questions he thought the time had come when every opportunity still remaining in the hands of a minority should be used to protest against such treatment.
§ THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester, E.)said the hon. Gentleman accused him of treating the House with contempt. That was the last sentiment that ever entered his mind. He did not say that there were no individuals in the House for whom at times he might not entertain contempt, but for 879 the House itself, never. The hon. Gentleman accused him of not having got up to answer the Question; but, so far as he knew, no Question had been put which had not been already answered by his right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was responsible for the conduct of this Bill through the House-His right hon. friend might have added, however, that when hon. Members talked in the same breath of a departure from ancient precedent and also of the importance of discussion on the Committee
§ stage of the Consolidated Fund Bill they showed complete forgetfulness or ignorance of what was perfectly familiar to all the older Members of the House. There was no case of an important debate ever having taken place on this stage of the Consolidated Fund Bill.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 89; Noes, 136. (Division List No. 228.)
881AYES. | ||
Ainsworth, John Stirling | Hammond, John | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
Asher, Alexander | Harcourt, Lewis | O'Dowd, John |
Barran, Rowland Hirst | Hardie, J Keir (Merthyr Tydvil | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Helme, Norval Watson | O'Malley, William |
Black, Alexander William | Higham, John Sharp | O'Mara, James |
Boland, John | Hutchinson, Dr. Chas. Fredk. | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden |
Brigg, John | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Power, Patrick Joseph |
Bright, Allan Heywood | Jordan, Jeremiah | Priestley, Arthur |
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) | Joyce, Michael | Rea, Russell |
Burke, E. Haviland | Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan. W | Reddy, M. |
Caldwell, James | Kilbride, Denis | Rickett, J. Compton |
Causton, Richard Knight | Lamont, Norman | Roche, John (Galway, East |
Channing, Francis Allston | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) | Russell, T. W. |
Cheetham, John Frederick | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall | Samuel, Herb. L. (Cleveland) |
Churchill, Winston Spencer | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
Cogan, Denis J. | Lough, Thomas | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
Condon, Thomas Joseph | Lyell, Charles Henry | Soares, Ernest J. |
Crean, Eugene | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Sullivan, Donal |
Cremer, William Randal | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
Cullinan, J. | M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | Toulmin, George |
Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway | M'Crae, George | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | White, George (Norfolk) |
Doogan, P. C. | Markham, Arthur Basil | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
Duffy, William J. | Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N. | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
Ellice, Capt E C (S Andrw'sBghs | Moss, Samuel | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | Muldoon, John | Wills, Arthur Walters (N Dorset |
Farrell, James Patrick | Murphy, John | Wilson, Fred W (Norfolk, Mid.) |
Findlay, Alex. (Lanark, N. E.) | Nannetti, Joseph P. | |
Flavin, Michael Joseph | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Dalziel and Major Seely. |
Gladstone, Rt. Hn Herbert John | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid.) | |
Griffith, Ellis J. | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | |
NOES. | ||
Anson, Sir William Reynell | Bond, Edward | Cust, Henry John C. |
Arkwright, John Stanhope | Boscawen, Arthur Griffith | Davenport, Wm. Bromley |
Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. H. O. | Brassey, Albert | Dickson, Charles Scott |
Arrol, Sir William | Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Doughty, Sir George |
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Brotherton, Edward Allen | Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers- |
Balcarres, Lord | Campbell, J. H M (Dublin Univ. | Doxford, Sir Wm. Theodore |
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r. | Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H. | Fellowes, Rt. Hn. Ailwyn Edw. |
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Cavendish, V. C W. (Derbyshire | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst |
Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W (Leeds | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Finch, Rt. Hn. George H. |
Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Finlay, Sir R. B. (Inv'rn'ssBghs. |
Banner, John S Harmood- | Chamberlain. Rt Hn J A (Worc. | Fisher, William Hayes |
Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin | Chapman, Edward | Fitzroy, Hn. Edw. Algernon |
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Clive, Captain Percy A. | Forster, Henry William |
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Coates, Edward Feetham | Galloway, William Johnson |
Bignold, Sir Arthur | Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. | Gardner, Ernest |
Bingham, Lord | Compton, Lord Alywne | Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) |
Blundell, Colonel Henry | Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Gordon, Maj Evans (T'rH'mlets |
Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft | Round, Rt. Hon. James |
Greene, H. D. (Shrewsbury) | Lucas, Reginald J (Portsmouth | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
Hambro, Charles Eric | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) |
Hamilton, Marqof (L'nd'nderry | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford) | Majendie, James A. H. | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
Hare, Thomas Leigh | Marks, Harry Hananel | Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln) |
Hay, Hn. Claude George | Martin, Richard Biddulph | Smith, Abel H (Hertford, East) |
Heath, Sir Jas (Staffords, N. W. | Milvain, Thomas | Stanley, Hn. Arthur Ormskirk |
Hickman, Sir Alfred | Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants. | Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lanes.) |
Hope, J F (Sheffield, Brightside | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
Hozier, Hon. James Henry C. | Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) | Strutt, Hn. Charles Hedley |
Hunt, Rowland | Morpeth, Viscount | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
Jeffreys, Ht. Hn. Arthur Fred | Morrell, George Herbert | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
Kenyon, Hon. G. T. (Denbigh | Morrison, James Archibald | Tuff, Charles |
Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W | Mount, William Arthur | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
Kerr, John | Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) |
Keswick, William | Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington) | Walker, Col. William Hall |
King, Sir Henry Seymour | Percy, Earl | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. H. |
Knowles, Sir Lees | Pierpoint, Robert | Warde, Colonel C. E |
Laurie, Lieut.-General | Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts.) |
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
Lawrence, Sir J. (Monmouth) | Pretyman, Ernest George | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R. |
Lawson, Hn. H L W (Mile End) | Purvis, Robert | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
Lee, A. H. (Hants, Fareham) | Randles, John S. | Wylie, Alexander |
Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Rankin, Sir James | |
Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S | Reid, James (Greenock) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia. |
Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. | Ridley, S. Forde | |
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol. S | Robertson, Herb. (Hackney) | |
Lowe, Francis William | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
§ Question again proposed, "That the clause stand part of the Bill."
§ MAJOR SEELYsaid he desired to call the attention of the Committee to the disastrous state of His Majesty's land forces.
THE CHAIRMANsaid that would be clearly out of order. It was a well-known rule of the House that such general discussions were in order on the Second and Third Reading of the Bill, but it had been laid down time after time that they were not in order in Committee.
§ MAJOR SEELYsaid that as he understood the precedent it was not in order to discuss the general condition of the land forces in Committee on the Consolidated Fund Bill under ordinary circumstances, but under exceptional circumstances, such as took place in 1884, he believed it was held that the state of uncertainty could be discussed.
THE CHAIRMANsaid he had carefully studied the precedents of the last twenty years, and he was confident that that was not so.
§ MR. CHURCHILLunderstood the ruling of the Chair to be that no general subject such as would be relevant to a Second Reading debate was in order in Committee. He presumed, however, that any specific item of expenditure included in the sum dealt with by this clause to which exception was taken could be discussed on the present occasion.
THE CHAIRMANexplained that the Committee could not over-rule a decision of the House itself, and the House had already decided by the Resolution of June 6th that this particular sum should be granted out of the Consolidated Fund. It would therefore be out of order for the Committee to attempt to go behind the decision of the House.
§ MR. CHURCHILLsaid the Question put from the Chair was "that Clause 1 stand part of the Bill," and the Committer, of course, could either reject or accept that Motion. Therefore, while it was in order to reject the clause absolutely, it was apparently not in order to assign any reason for taking such a course.
THE CHAIRMANsaid that so far as he could gather from the precedents that 883 was what had always been ruled. He did not defend it; he simply adhered to the practice of the House.
§ MR. DALZIELasked whether the Chairman meant to assert that on no previous occasion had Members been allowed in Committee on the Consolidated Fund Bill to discuss the merits of the clauses or to move Amendments to them; and, further, whether be ruled that no Amendment whatever could be made to Clause 1 or any other clause in the Bill.
THE CHAIRMANsaid his ruling referred to a particular Amendment on Clause 1. When other clauses were reached, if any Amendments were put forward, he would rule upon them.
§ MR. DALZIELasked whether it would be in order for any Member who objected to the procedure to be adopted in raising this money to move the postponement of Clause 1 until the borrowing proposals had been discussed.
§ MR. SWIFT MACNEILL (Donegal, S.)asked what, then, could be discussed. This sum of £16,000,000 included an item of £1,000 or £2,000 in connection with the Deputy Judge Advocate-General's office. Could he discuss that, or were the Members of the House of Commons to vote money simply as automata?
THE CHAIRMANsaid that precisely the same point was raised by the late Member for Cork in 1885, and it was then held that he could not move such an Amendment.
§ MR. SAMUEL EVANS (Glamorganshire, Mid.)asked whether the Committee was to understand that they could not discuss anything.
THE CHAIRMANsaid he had ruled that it was not in order to discuss the condition of the land forces. That was the only subject which had yet been suggested for discussion.
§ MR. SAMUEL EVANSIs there anything we can discuss?
THE CHAIRMANAll I can say is that for twenty years the ingenuity of many Inn. Members has been directed to finding something to discuss, and they have never succeeded in finding anything.
§ MR. CHURCHILLsaid he would not venture to comment upon the results of the ruling just given, but the Committee were in a very peculiar position. They were asked to express an opinion as to whether or not Clause 1 should stand part of the Bill, but they were not allowed to consider any of the facts relevant to such a decision. But the question was not merely whether the clause should be embodied in the Bill; there was the further point of whether they ought not to decide as to the borrowing powers to be granted to the Government before they dealt with the Supply itself. He therefore moved to postpone Clause 1 until Clause 2 had been dealt with.
THE CHAIRMANsaid that such a Motion would not be in order. The Question that Clause 1 stand part had already been put, and any Motion to postpone the clause should be made before that Question was proposed from the Chair.
§ MR. SOARES (Devonshire, Barnstaple)hoped some explanation of the clause would be given. Even if the measure were more or less of a formal character it was nevertheless necessary that the Committee should understand the Bill before they passed it.
§ MR. DALZIELsaid there were various reasons why this clause should not be added to the Bill. The measure had come on unexpectedly, and many Members interested therein were not present. There was also the question of whether the Government ought to be encouraged in this policy of continually bringing in Consolidated Fund Bills.
THE CHAIRMANThat subject might be in order on the Second Reading, but it is certainly out of order on Clause 1.
§ MR. DALZIELsaid another matter for consideration was whether the Government were a fit body to be entrusted with this amount of money.
THE CHAIRMANThe House has already decided that question by the Resolution of June 6th, upon which we cannot go back.
§ MR. CHURCHILLasked how, if the House had already decided that the Government were to have this money, it was competent for the Committee to over-rule the decision of the House, as it obviously was competent from the very fact that the Chairman had put the Question from the Chair.
THE CHAIRMANI have already stated the rule of the House; I am afraid I cannot argue the matter with the hon. Member.
§ MR. CHURCHILLsuggested that it would be extremely convenient, and greatly to the satisfaction of all parties, if the Chairman would inaugurate his career by creating and establishing for all time a precedent that would bear some remote resemblance to commonsense.
§ MR. SWIFT MACNEILLthought that, in view of the fact that hon. Members did not expect this discussion to come on, he was within his rights in moving the adjournment of the debate. [The Clerk at the Table made an observation to the Chairman.] He must really ask the Clerk to keep quiet. The question was for the Chairman to decide. He would submit to the decision of the proper authority, but he protested against the Chairman being the mouthpiece of any official at the Table. [Cries of "Withdraw!"] He would withdraw nothing. If the Government would not answer Questions that were put to them he was perfectly in order in moving the adjournment of the debate.
THE CHAIRMANsaid the hon. Member would, no doubt, have been within his rights in moving the adjournment of the debate were it not that the Committee had just rejected a Motion to 886 report Progress. He could not accept the
§ MR. CHURCHILLasked whether they were not entitled to have from the Chancellor of the Exchequer some statement in explanation of the very important proposition which he had been responsible for commending to the House. The Committee were not allowed to criticise in detail the various public objects to be served by the Supply or to deal with any of the general subjects which appsared naturally to arise in connection with the expenditure of the money, but they were at least entitled to a statement from the responsible head of the Treasury as to the general scope of the clause. If the debate appeared to lack the element of reality, that element could be at once supplied by the right hon. Gentleman on the Treasury Bench. He would not make an appeal to the right hon. Gentleman, because, naturally, the right hon. Gentleman did not pay any attention to anything he said—unless it was to do the exact opposite—but the Leader of the House had assured them that, though he had a contempt for him personally, he had no contempt for the House, and he would urge the right hon. Gentleman to live up to that newly-made resolution and apply to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that almost overwhelming pressure which would induce him to make to the Committee the explanation which it desired and deserved.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURrose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
§ Question pat, "That the Question be now put."
§ While the House was being cleared for a division,
§ MR. CALDWELL (Lanarkshire, Mid.)drew attention to the fact that in 1888 when the question was raised the Chairman said—
The hon. Member can discuss whether it is expedient that the Supply which has been already granted by the House should or should not be appropriated, and the mode of appropriation, but those are the only questions he can raise. The Supply has been already voted; the amount has been already determined; the only question for this Committee is whether the Treasury shall be 887 compelled by law to appropriate the money in a certain way.
§ looked the fact that that was an Appropriation Bill.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes 127; Noes, 78. (Division List No. 229.)
889AYES. | ||
Anson, Sir William Reynell | Fitzroy, Hn. Edw. Algernon | Morrison, James Archibald |
Arkwright, John Stanhope | Forster, Henry William | Mount, William Arthur |
Arnold-Forster, Rt Hn. H. O. | Galloway, William Johnson | Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) |
Arrol, Sir William | Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) | Pease, Herbert P. (Darlington |
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Gordon, Maj Evans(T'rH'mlets | Percy, Earl |
Balcarres, Lord | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Pierpoint, Robert |
Balfour, Rt. Hn A. J (Manch'r | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Hambro, Charles Eric | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds) | Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nderry | Pretyman, Ernest George |
Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford) | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
Banner, John S. Harmood- | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Purvis, Robert |
Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Randles, John S. |
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Heath, Sir Jas. (Staffords, N W | Rankin, Sir James |
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Hope, J F (Sheffield, Brightside | Reid, James (Greenock) |
Bignold, Sir Arthur | Hozier, Hon. James Henry C. | Ridley, S. Forde |
Bingham, Lord | Hunt, Rowland | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney |
Blundell, Colonel Henry | Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
Bond, Edward | Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh | Rutherford, John (Lancashire |
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith | Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W. | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool |
Brassey, Albert | Kerr, John | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Keswick, William | Seely, Chas. Hilton (Lincoln) |
Brotherton, Edward Allen | King, Sir Henry Seymour | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East |
Campbell, J. HM (Dublin Univ. | Knowles, Sir Lees | Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk |
Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H. | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lanes) |
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh. | Lawrence, Sir J. (Monmouth) | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) | Strutt, Hn. Charles Hedley |
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Lawson, Hn. H. L. W. (Mile End | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn J A (Worc. | Lee, A. H. (Hants, Fareham) | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
Charming, Francis Allston | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Tuff, Charles |
Chapman, Edward | Leveson-Gower, Frederick. N. S | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
Clive, Captain Percy A. | Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. | Walker, Col. William Hall |
Coates, Edward Feetham | Long, Rt. Hn Walter (Bristol, S) | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. H. |
Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A E. | Lowe, Francis William | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
Compton, Lord Alwyne | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts) |
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Lucas, Reginald J (Portsmouth | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
Davenport, William Bromley | Lyttelton, Rt. Hn. Alfred | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
Dickson, Charles Scott | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R. |
Doughty, Sir George | Majendie, James A. H. | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers. | Marks, Harry Hananel | Wylie, Alexander |
Fellowes, Rt Hn Ailwyn Edward | Milvain, Thomas | |
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscovnt Valentia. |
Finch, Rt. Hn. George H. | Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) | |
Finlay, Sir R B (Inv'rn'ssB'ghs) | Morpeth, Viscount | |
Fisher, William Hayes | Morrell, George Herbert | |
NOES. | ||
Ainsworth, John Stirling | Cremer, Wm. Randal | Higham, John Sharp |
Asher, Alexander | Cullinan, J. | Jones, Leif (Appleby) |
Barran, Rowland Hirst | Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway | Jordan, Jeremiah |
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Devlin, J. (Kilkenny, N.) | Joyce, Michael |
Black, Alexander William | Doogan, P. C. | Kennedy, V. P. (Cavan, W.) |
Boland, John | Duffy, William J. | Kilbride, Denis |
Brigg, John | Ellice, Capt E C (SAndrw'sB'ghs | Law, Hugh Alex (Donegal, W. |
Bright, Allan Heywood | Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) |
Brown, G. M. (Edinburgh) | Farrell, James Patrick | Layland-Barratt, Francis |
Caldwell, James | Findlay, Alex. (Lanark, N. E.) | Lough, Thomas |
Causton, Richard Knight. | Flavin, Michael Joseph | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift |
Cheetham, John Frederick | Gladstone, Rt. Hn Herb. John | MacVeagh, Jeremiah |
Churchill, Winston Spencer | Hammond, John | M'Arthur, Wm. (Cornwall) |
Cogan, Denis J. | Harcourt, Lewis | M'Crae, George |
Condon, Thomas Joseph | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) |
Crean, Eugene | Helme, Norval Watson | Markham, Arthur Basil |
Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N. | Power, Patrick Joseph | Toulmin, George |
Moss, Samuel | Priestley, Arthur | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
Muldoon, John | Rea, Russell | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
Murphy, John | Reddy, M. | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
Nannetti, Joseph P. | Roche, John (Galway, East) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
Nolan, J. (Louth, South) | Russell, T. W. | Wills, Arthur Walters (N Dorset |
O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid.) | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) | Wilson, Fred W (Norfolk, Mid.) |
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Seely, Maj J. E. B(Isle of Wight | |
O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Soares, Ernest J. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Dalziel and Mr. Ellis Griffith. |
O'Malley, William | Sullivan, Donal | |
Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
§ Question put accordingly, "That the clause stand part of the Bill."
890§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 125; Noes, 79. (Division List No 230.)
891AYES. | ||
Anson, Sir William Reynell | Forster, Henry William | Mount, William Arthur |
Arkwright, John Stanhope | Galloway, William Johnson | Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) |
Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. H. O. | Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) | Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington |
Arrol, Sir William | Gordon, Maj Evans (T'r H'mlets | Percy, Earl |
Atkinson, Rt. Hn. John | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Pierpoint, Robert |
Balcarres, Lord | Hambro, Charles Eric | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A J (Manch'r) | Hamilton, Marqof (L'nd'nderry) | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
Balfour, Capt C. B. (Hornsey) | Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford) | Pretyman, Ernest George |
Balfour, Rt Hn G. W. (Leeds) | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Purvis, Robert |
Banner, John S. Harmood- | Heath, Sir J. (Staffords, N. W. | Randles, John S. |
Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside | Rankin, Sir James |
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil | Reid, James (Greenock) |
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M | Hunt, Rowland | Ridley, S. Forde |
Bignold, Sir Arthur | Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred. | Robertson, Herb. (Hackney) |
Bingham, Lord | Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T (Denbigh | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
Blundell, Colonel Henry | Kenyon-Slaney, Rt Hn Col. W. | Rutherford, John (Lancashire |
Bond, Edward | Kerr, John | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith | Keswick, William | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
Brassey, Albert | King, Sir Henry Seymour | Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln) |
Brotherton, Edward Allen | Knowles, Sir Lees | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East |
Campbell, J H M (Dublin Univ. | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow | Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk |
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H | Lawrence, Sir J. (Monm'th) | Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lanes |
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh. | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Lawson, Hn H L W (Mile End | Strutt, Hn. Charles Hedley |
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Lee, A. H. (Hants, Fareham) | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
Chamberlain, Rt Hn J A (Wore. | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
Chapman, Edward | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. | Tuff, Charles |
Clive, Captain Percy A. | Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
Coates, Edward Feetham | Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham | Walker, Col. William Hall |
Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. | Lowe, Francis William | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. H. |
Compton, Lord Alwyne | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
Corbett, T. L (Down, North) | Lucas, Reginald J (Portsmouth | Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts.) |
Davenport, William Bromley | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
Dickson, Charles Scott | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
Doughty, Sir George | Majendie, James A. H. | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R. |
Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers- | Marks, Harry Hananel | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
Fellowes, Rt Hn Ailwyn Edward | Milvain, Thomas | Wylie, Alexander |
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | |
Finch, Rt. Hn. George H. | Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia. |
Finlay, Sir R. B. (Inv'rn'ssB'ghs. | Morpeth, Viscount | |
Fisher, William Hayes | Morrell, George Herbert | |
Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon | Morrison, James Archibald | |
NOES. | ||
Ainsworth, John Stirling | Caldwell, James | Cullinan, J. |
Asher, Alexander | Causton, Richard Knight | Dalziel, James Henry |
Barran, Rowland Hirst | Channing, Francis Allston | Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway |
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Cheetham, John Frederick | Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) |
Black, Alexander William | Cogan, Denis J. | Doogan, P. C. |
Boland, John | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Duffy, William J. |
Brigg, John | Crean, Eugene | Ellice, Capt E C (SAndrw'sB'ghs |
Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh. | Cremer, William Randal | Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) |
Farrell, James Patrick | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Preistley, Arthur |
Findlay, Alex. (Lanark, N. E.) | M'Arthur, Wm. (Cornwall) | Rea, Russell |
Flavin, Michael Joseph | M'Crae, George | Reddy, M. |
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. John | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | Roche, John (Galway, East) |
Griffith, Ellis J. | Markham, Arthur Basil | Russell, T. W. |
Hammond, John | Mitchell, Edw (Fermanagh, N. | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
Harcourt, Lewis | Moss, Samuel | Soares, Ernest J. |
Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil | Muldoon, John | Sullivan, Donal |
Helme, Norval Watson | Murphy, John | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe |
Higham, John Sharp | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Toulmin, George |
Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
Jordan, Jeremiah | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid.) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
Joyce, Michael | O'Brien, Patrick ((Kilkenny) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
Kennedy, Vincent P (Cavan, W | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Wills, Arthur Walters (N Dorset |
Kilbride, Denis | O'Dowd, John | Wilson, Fred W (Norfolk, Mid.) |
Law, Hugh Alex (Donegal, W. | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | |
Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) | O'Malley, William | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Trevelyan and Mr. Bright. |
Layland-Barratt, Francis | O'Mara, James | |
Lough, Thomas | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) | |
MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Power, Patrick Joseph |
§ Clause 2:—
§ MR. McCRAE (Edinburgh, E.), in moving to omit the word "borrow," complained of the inconvenience of discussing technical financial points at that hour of the morning.
THE CHAIRMANintimated that the hon. Member would not be in order unless he proposed to substitute some other word for the word "borrow."
§ MR. McCRAEsaid he was about to show how the money could be provided if the word "borrow" was omitted.
THE CHAIRMANsaid he could not accept the Amendment as it stood, as the clause would not be sense without some verb in the place of "borrow."
§ MR. CHURCHILLunderstood that his hon. friend wished to call attention to certain technical irregularities in the method of borrowing now pursued by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and in order to remove the difficulty referred to by the Chairman he would move the substitution of the word "obtain" for the word "borrow." At first sight it might appear to be a mere verbal quibble, but that was not at all the case. There were many sources from which the Treasury could obtain funds without borrowing. There was, for instance, the overdue contribution of £10,000,000 from the mineowners of South Africa. That alone would have provided considerably more than one-half of the amount dealt with in this Bill. Then 892 there were the enormous profits said to have been made out of the sale of stores through the genius and foresight of a paragon Secretary of State. Surely some appropriation from that source might very well be brought into account. Another method of raising funds was afforded by the giving of commissions in the Army to gentlemen who were unable to pass their examinations.
§ COLONEL LOCKWOOD (Essex, Epping)asked, on a point of order, whether the hon. Member was not trifling with the time of the House.
THE CHAIRMANsaid the hon. Member did not appear to be speaking very relevantly. He was following the remarks of the hon. Gentleman very closely, and, though he could not say he was out of order, he would ask him to keep as near to the point as possible.
§ MR. CHURCHILLsaid nothing was further from him than to trifle with the Committee. They were, it was true, scrutinising the Bill with greater minuteness than they would have done had not the Chancellor of the Exchequer treated the House in an abominable and discourteous manner.
§ MR. CHURCHILLsaid that possibly he had strayed a little from the subject. He suggested that the contribution from South Africa, the profits from the sale of stores, the sums that might be realised 893 by contributions from officers whose intellects would not enable them to pass competitive examinations, the economies which the representative of the Board of Works expected to accrue from Big Ben's being illuminated with a green instead of a yellow light, and the imposition of a charge for the admission of motor-cars into Hyde Park during certain hours, were all sources from which additional revenue might be derived. He hoped that in moving his Amendment he could count on the support of all hon. Gentlemen who disapproved of the violent, unreasonable, uncharitable, and unfair course pursued by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in thrusting the Bill unexpectedly on the House.
§ Amendment proposed—
§ "In page 1, line 19, to leave out the word 'borrow,' and insert the word 'obtain.'"—(Mr. Churchill.)
§ Question proposed, "That the word 'borrow' stand part of the clause."
§ MR. McCRAEsaid that in his Budget the Chancellor of the Exchequer obtained authority to borrow £10,000,000 on Exchequer bonds between April and December, not for the services of the year, but for the purpose of liquidating other Exchequer bonds falling out in December. The right hon. Gentleman had exercised that power to the extent of about £6,000,000. The Exchequer balances recently stood at £9,000,000 and in the following week at £10,000,000, and although they had been reduced for the moment by the payment of Supply and the laying aside of some £5,00a, 000 for the payment of dividends, the financial position was such that the right hon. Gentleman did not require to borrow to the same extent for Supply as he would have had to do in a normal year. He thought, therefore, the Committee should be very careful in giving further borrowing powers, and before any such powers were granted an undertaking ought to be given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the money would be applied only to the purposes for which it was voted. During recent years the practice of transferring money from one head to another without the consent of Parliament had grown to such an extent that it was be- 894 coming a danger to the State. While the financial affairs of the nation were conducted in so lax a manner there was no wonder that expenditure went on increasing by leaps and bounds. It was necessary that a stop should be put to the growth of the floating debt, but if this clause were passed without any undertaking from the Chancellor of the Exchequer he feared that that debt would not be reduced as it ought to be.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid he should be extremely sorry if in his conduct of any measure he could fairly be charged with discourtesy to the House or to any Member. He honestly thought he was not open to the strong comments of the hon. Member for Oldham, which were couched in needlessly offensive language.
§ MR. CHURCHILLsaid his language had reference to the right hon. Gentleman's political action, not his personal demeanour.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid he did not plead guilty to the charge, but it was unnecessary further to allude to it. With regard to the Amendment, he might remind the Committee that this was a common form of clause which had appeared for several years in these Bills, and such Bills had always been treated as non-controversial, or, at any rate, as not requiring any lengthened discussion. He need scarcely assure the Committee that the borrowing would be confined to what was absolutely necessary. The Treasury had to provide £10,000,000 against December; they could not raise it all at the last moment, so they were raising it in instalments during the year. As far as that money could be made available during the year advantage would be taken of it. But the provision was one that appeared in all such Bills, and the power to borrow was always used by the Chancellor of the Exchequer with as much moderation as the circumstances permitted. He hoped, therefore, that the Committee would allow the present Chancellor of the Exchequer and the present Government the discretion which had always been allowed by previous Bills of this character
§ MR. STUART SAMUEL (Tower Hamlets, Whitechapel)said that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer, instead of bonowing in the early part of the year when money was dearest, had waited until the present time when money was under 2 per cent., and had raised it by Treasury bills instead of by Exchequer bonds, he would have got the money at practically half the rate that he had to pay on the last occasion. Considerable criticism had been directed against the method adopted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINasked whether the hon. Member was in order in discussing on the present Bill what in reality was a provision of the Finance Act.
§ MR. McCRAEsubmitted that the matter came within the purview of the Committee, as the money was not being devoted to the purpose for which it was borrowed, but was lying in the bank, and could be made available for the purposes of this Bill.
§ MR. STUART SAMUELsaid he was about to suggest the manner in which the money should be obtained. He was opposed to any discretion being left to the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to the manner in which the money should be raised. The best form was that of Treasury bills, as money could be obtained so much more cheaply when it was to be repaid at short fixed intervals. Money could be obtained for six months at under 2 per cent., whereas under the wasteful procedure adopted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer 3 per cent, or 3¼ per cent, had had to be paid.
THE CHAIRMANreminded the hon. Member that the only question before the Committee was the substitution of "obtain" for "borrow."
§ MR. STUART SAMUELsaid that whether the Treasury "borrowed" or "obtained" they must issue something, and he was arguing in favour of Treasury bills as against Exchequer bonds. The manner in which money had been borrowed recently was condemned by practically all sound financial experts. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer had no intention of adding to the permanent debt of the country, and that he would Dot, as on a previous occasion, payoff £7,000,000 by borrowing £9,000,000.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid that if the hon. Member would read the clause he would see that neither of those things could be done under the power granted by the Bill.
§ MR. SAMUEL EVANScomplained that not a single word of explanation had been given as to the purposes for which this money was required, nor had any reason been given for pressing the Bill at this sitting. The fact that it was the forty-seventh Order showed that it was not urgent.
§ MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid he objected just as much to the Government's "obtaining" as he did to their "borrowing" this £16,000,000. There was no urgency for the Bill, and he moved to report Progress.
§ Question put, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 73; Noes, 117. (Division List No. 231.)
897AYES. | ||
Ainsworth, John Stirling | Brigg, John | Causton, Richard Knight |
Barran, Rowland Hirst | Bright, Allan Heywood | Channing, Francis Allston |
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) | Cheetham, John Frederick |
Boland, John | Caldwell, James | Churchill, Winston Spencer |
Cogan, Denis J. | Jordan, Jeremiah | O'Mara, James |
Condon, Thomas Joseph | Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) |
Crean, Eugene | Kilbride, Denis | Power, Patrick Joseph |
Cremer, William Randal | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) | Priestley, Arthur |
Cullinan, J. | Lough, Thomas | Rea, Russell |
Dalziel, James Henry | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Reddy, M. |
Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway | M'Arthur, Wm. (Cornwall) | Roche, John (Galway, East) |
Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N. | M'Crae, George | Russell, T. W. |
Doogan, P. C. | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | Samuel, S. W. (Whitechapel) |
Duffy, William J. | Markham, Arthur Basil | Seely, Maj. J. E B (Isle of Wight) |
Ellice, Capt E C. (SAndrw'sBghs | Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N. | Sullivan, Donal |
Farrell, James Patrick | Moss, Samuel | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
Findlay, Alex. (Lanark, N. E. | Muldoon, John | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
Flavin, Michael Joseph | Murphy, John | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J. | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
Griffith, Ellis J. | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Wills, Arthur Walters (N Dorset |
Hammond, John | O'Brien, K. Tipperary Mid.) | Wilson, Fred. W (Norfolk, Mid.) |
Harcourt, Lewis | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | |
Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Samuel Evans and Mr. Soares. |
Helme, Norval Watson | O'Dowd, John | |
Higham, John Sharp | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | |
Jones, Leif (Appleby) | O'Malley, William | |
NOES. | ||
Anson, Sir William Reynell | Fisher, William Hayes | Morrison, James Archibald |
Arkwright, John Stanhope | Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon | Mount, William Arthur |
Arnold-Forster, Rt Hn. Hugh O. | Forster, Henry William | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) |
Arrol, Sir William | Galloway, William Johnson | Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlineton) |
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) | Percy, Earl |
Balcarres, Lord | Gordon, Maj Evans (T'rH'mlets | Pierpoint, Robert |
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Hambro, Charles Eric | Pretyman, Ernest George |
Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds | Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford | Purvis, Robert |
Banner, John S. Harmood- | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Randles, John S. |
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Heath, Sir Jas. (Staffords N W.) | Reid, James (Greenock) |
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Hope, J F. (Sheffield, Brightside | Ridley, S. Forde |
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Hozier, Hon. James Henry C. | Robertson, Herb. (Hackney) |
Bignold, Sir Arthur | Hunt, Rowland | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
Bingham, Lord | Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) |
Blundell, Colonel Henry | Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool |
Bond, Edward | Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W. | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith | Kerr, John | Seely, Chas. Hilton (Lincoln) |
Brassey, Albert | Keswick, William | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East |
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Knowles, Sir Lees | Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk |
Brotherton, Edward Allen | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lanes) |
Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ | Lawrence, Sir J. (Monm'th) | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H. | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) | Strutt, Hn. Charles Hedley |
Cawendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire | Lawson, Hn H. L. W. (Mile End) | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Lee, A. H. (Hants, Fareham) | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J A. (Worc. | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Tuff, Charles |
Chapman, Edward | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
Clive, Captain Percy A. | Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. | Walker, Col. William Hall |
Coates, Edward Feetham | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. H. |
Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
Compton, Lord Alwyne | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
Davenport, W. Bromley | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R. |
Dickson, Charles Scott | Majendie, James A. H. | Wylie, Alexander |
Doughty, Sir George | Marks, Harry Hananel | |
Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers- | Milvain Thomas | TELLERS F0R THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia. |
Fellowes Rt Hn Ailwyn Edward | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | |
Fielden Edward Brocklehurst | Morgan D. J. (Walthamstow) | |
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Morpeth, Viscount | |
Finlay, Sir R. B. (Inv'rn'ssB'ghs | Morrell, George Herbert |
§ Mr. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
899§ Question put, "That the Question be now put."
900§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 118; Noes, 72 (Division List No. 232.)
901AYES. | ||
Anson, Sir William Reynell | Finlay, Sir R B(Inv'rn'ssB'ghs) | Morrell, George Herbert |
Arkwright, John Stanhope | Fisher, William Hayes | Morrison, James Archibald |
Arnold-Forster, Rt Hn Hugh O. | Fitzroy, Hon. Edw. Algernon | Mount, William Arthur |
Arrol, Sir William | Forster, Henry William | Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) |
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Galloway, William Johnson | Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington) |
Balcarres, Lord | Gordon, J (Londonderry, South | Percy, Earl |
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r. | Gordon, Maj Evans (T'rH'mlets | Pierpoint, Robert |
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds | Hambro, Charles Eric | Pretyman, Ernest George |
Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Hamilton, Marq of (L'donderry | Pryce-Jones, Lt. -Col. Edward |
Banner, John S. Harmood- | Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford) | Purvis, Robert |
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Randles, John S. |
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Heath, Sir J. (Staffords. N. W. | Reid, James (Greenock) |
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Hope, J F (Sheffield Brightside) | Ridley, S. Forde |
Bignold, Sir Arthur | Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
Bingham, Lord | Hunt, Rowland | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
Blundell, Colonel Henry | Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred | Rutherford, John (Lancashire |
Bond, Edward | Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith | Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
Brassey, Albert | Kerr, John | Seely, Chas. Hilton (Lincoln) |
Brodrick, Rt. Hn. St. John | Keswick, William | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East |
Brotherton, Edward Allen | Knowles, Sir Lees | Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk |
Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ. | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lanes) |
Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H. | Lawrence, Sir J. (Monmouth) | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh. | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Lawson, Hn. H. L W (Mile End) | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
Chamberlain, Rt Hn J A (Worc. | Lee, A. H. (Hants, Fareham) | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
Channing, Francis Allston | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Tuff, Charles |
Chapman, Edward | Leveson-Gower, Frederick, N S. | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
Clive, Captain Percy A. | Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. | Walker, Col. William Hall |
Coates, Edward Feetham | Long, Rt Hn Walter (Bristol, S. | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. H. |
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Lucas, Col. F. (Lowestoft) | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
Compton, Lord Alwyne | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsm'th | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Lyttelton, Rt. Hn. Alfred | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
Davenport, W. Bromley | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Wi'son, A. Stanley (York, E. R |
Dickson, Charles Scott | Majendie, James A. H | Wylie, Alexander |
Doughty, Sir George | Marks, Harry Hananel | |
Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers- | Milvain, Thomas | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia |
Fellowes, Rt. Hn. Ailwyn Edw. | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | |
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) | |
Finch, Rt. Hn. George H. | Morpeth, Viscount | |
NOES. | ||
Ainsworth, John Stirling | Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | Moss, Samuel |
Barran, Rowland Hirst | Farrell, James Patrick | Muldoon, John |
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Findlay, Alex. (Lanark, N. E.) | Murphy, John |
Boland, John | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Nannetti, Joseph P. |
Brigg, John | Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. John | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) |
Bright, Allan Heywood | Griffith, Ellis J. | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid.) |
Brown, G. M. (Edinburgh) | Hammond, John | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
Caldwell, James | Harcourt, Lewis | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
Causton, Richard Knight | Hardie, J Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | O'Dowd, John |
Cheetham, John Frederick | Helme, Norval Watson | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
Churchill, Winston Spencer | Higham, John Sharp | O'Malley, William |
Cogan, Denis J. | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) |
Condon, Thomas Joseph | Jordan, Jeremiah | Power, Patrick Joseph |
Crean, Eugene | Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W | Priestley, Arthur |
Cremer, William Randal | Kilbride, Denis | Rea, Russell |
Cullinan, J. | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) | Reddy, M. |
Dalziel, James Henry | Lough, Thomas | Roche, John (Galway, East) |
Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway | M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | Russell, T. W. |
Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) | M'Crae, George | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
Doogan, P. C. | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | Seely, Maj. J E B (Isle of Wight) |
Duffy, William J. | Markham, Arthur Basil | Soares, Ernest J. |
Ellice, Capt E C (SAndrw's Bghs) | Mitchell, Edw (Fermanagh, N. | Sullivan, Donal |
Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. O'Mara and Mr. Mac Veagh. |
White, Luke (York, E. R.) | Wills, ArthurWalters (N Dorset | |
Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) | Wilson, Fred W (Norfolk, Mid.) |
§ Question put accordingly, "That the word 'borrow' stand part of the clause."
902§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 117; Noes, 73 (Division List No. 233)
903AYES. | ||
Anson, Sir William Reynell | Fisher, William Hayes | Morrison, James Archibald |
Arkwright, John Stanhope | Fitzroy, Hn. Edw. Algernon | Mount, William Arthur |
Arnold-Forster, Rt Hn Hugh O. | Forster, Henry William | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) |
Arrol, Sir William | Galloway, William Johnson | Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington) |
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Gordon, J (Londonderry, South | Percy, Earl |
Balcarres, Lord | Gordon, Maj. Evans (T'r H'm'ts | Pierpoint, Robert |
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A J (Manch'r | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
Balfour, Capt. C. B (Hornsey) | Hambro, Charles Eric | Pretyman, Ernest George |
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds) | Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edw. |
Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford) | Purvis, Robert |
Banner, John S. Harmood- | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Randies, John S. |
Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin | Heath, Sir Jas. (Staffords. N. W. | Reid, James (Greenock) |
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside | Ridley, S. Forde |
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil | Robertson, Herb. (Hackney) |
Bignold, Sir Arthur | Hunt, Rowland | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
Bingham, Lord | Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred. | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) |
Blundell, Colonel Henry | Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh) | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
Bond, Edward | Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W. | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith | Kerr, John | Seely, Chas. Hilton (Lincoln) |
Brassey, Albert | Keswick, William | Smith, Abel H (Hertford, East |
Brodrick, Rt. Hn. St. John | Knowles, Sir Lees | Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk |
Brotherton, Edward Allen | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lanes.) |
Campell, J. H M (Dublin Univ.) | Lawrence, Sir J. (Monm'th) | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H. | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) | Strutt, Hn. Charles Hedley |
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh. | Lawson, Hn. H. L. W (Mile End) | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Lee, A. H. (Hants, Fareham) | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
Chamberlain, Rt Hn J A (Worc) | Legge, Col. Hn. Heneage | Tuff, Charles |
Chapman, Edward | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
Clive, Captain Percy A. | Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. | Walker, Col. William Hall |
Coates, Edward Feetham | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol. S | Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. H. |
Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
Compton, Lord Alwyne | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset). |
Davenport, W. Bromley | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R. |
Dickson, Charles Scott | Majendie, James A. H. | Wylie, Alexander |
Doughty, Sir George | Marks, Harry Hananel | |
Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers- | Milvain, Thomas | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia. |
Fellowes, Rt Hn Ailwyn Edward | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | |
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) | |
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Morpeth, Viscount | |
Finlay, Sir R B (Inv'rn'ssB'ghs) | Morrell, George Herbert | |
NOES. | ||
Ainsworth, John Stirling | Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) |
Barran, Rowland Hirst | Doogan, P. C. | Lough, Thomas |
Barry, E. (Cork, S. | Duffy, William J. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah |
Boland, John | Ellice, Capt. E C (SAndrw'sBghs | M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) |
Brigg, John | Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | M'Crae, George |
Bright, Allan Heywood | Farrell, James Patrick | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) |
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) | Findlay, Alex. (Lanark, N. E) | Markham, Arthur Basil |
Caldwell, James | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N. |
Causton, Richard Knight | Gladstone, Rt. Hn Herb. John | Moss, Samuel |
Channing, Francis Allston | Griffith, Ellis J. | Muldoon, John |
Cheetham, John Frederick | Hammond, John | Murphy, John |
Cogan, Denis J. | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil | Nannetti, Joseph P. |
Condon, Thomas Joseph | Helme, Norval Watson | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) |
Crean, Eugene | Higham, John Sharp | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid. |
Cremer, William Randal | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
Cullinan, J. | Jordan, Jeremiah | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
Dalziel, James Henry | Kennedy Vincent P (Cavan, W | O'Dowd, John |
Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway) | Kilbride, Denis | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
O'Malley, William | Russell, T. W. | Williams Osmond (Merioneth) |
O'Mara, James | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) | Wills, Arthur Walters (N Dorset |
Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) | Seely, Maj J E B (Isleof Wight) | Wilson, Fred. W (Norfolk, Mid. |
Power, Patrick Joseph | Soares, Ernest J. | |
Priestley, Arthur | Sullivan, Donal | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Churchill and Mr. Harcourt. |
Rea, Russell | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe | |
Reddy, M. | White, Luke (York, E. R.) | |
Roche, John (Galway, East) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
Mr. CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERclaimed to move, "That the Question 'That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill' be now put."
§ Question put, "That the Question 'That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill' be now put."
§ While the House was being, cleared.
§ MR. CHURCHILLsaid, we have been discussing the first sub-section of this clause only. Do I understand that you have actually accepted the closure on the other two sub-sections which have not even been approached by the Committee.
§ MAJOR SEELYsaid that the Chairman had at an earlier period called on him to move an Amendment. That being so, was it not unusual to accept the closure?
THE CHAIRMANI think the hon. Member's memory is a little defective. What I said was that I considered the Amendment to be moved in a spirit of sarcasm or mockery.
§ MAJOR SEELYsaid that possibly that was what the Chairman intended to have said, but in point of fact he called his name and h; stood up to move the Amendment.
§ MR. LOUGHasked whether there was any necessity to move the closure a second time. Was not one closure Motion sufficient?
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 116, Noes, 73. (Division List No. 234)
905AYES | ||
Anson, Sir William Reynell | Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Lawson, Hn. H. L. W. (Mile End) |
Arkwright, John Stanhope | Davenport, W. Bromley | Lee, A. H. (Hants, Fareham) |
Arnold-Forster. Rt. Hn. Hugho | Dickson, Charles Scott | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage |
Arrol, Sir William | Doughty, Sir George | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S |
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers- | Lockwood, Lieut,-Col. A. R. |
Balcarres, Lord | Fellowes, Rt. Hn Ailwyn Edw. | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S.) |
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r. | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Lucas, Col Francis (Lowestoft) |
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Finch, Rt. Hn. George H. | Lucas, Reginald J (Portsm'th |
Balfour, Rt Hn. Gerald W (Leeds) | Finlay, Sir R. B. (Inv'rn'ssB'ghs | Lyttelton, Rt. Hn. Alfred |
Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Fisher, William Hayes | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) |
Banner, John S. Harmood- | Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon | Majendie, James A. H. |
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Forster, Henry William | Marks, Harry Hananel |
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Galloway, William Johnson | Milvain, Thomas |
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Gordon, J. (Londonderry, South | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy |
Bignold, Sir Arthur | Gordon, Maj Evans (TrH'mlets) | Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) |
Bingham, Lord | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Morpeth, Viscount |
Blundell, Colonel Henry | Hambro, Charles Eric | Morrell, George Herbert |
Bond, Edward | Hamilton, Marc. Of (L'donderry) | Morrison, James Archibald |
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith | Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford) | Mount, William Arthur |
Brassey, Albert | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) |
Brodrick, Rt. Hn. St. John | Heath, Sir Jas. (Staffords. N. W | Pease, Herb. P. (Darlington) |
Brotherton, Edward Allen | Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside | Percy, Earl |
Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ. | Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil | Pierpoint, Robert |
Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H. | Hunt, Rowland | Piatt-Higgins, Frederick |
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh. | Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred | Pretyman, Ernest George |
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W. | Pryce-Jones, Lt. Col. Edward |
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn J A (Worc.) | Kerr, John | Purvis, Robert |
Chapman, Edward | Keswick, William | Randles, John S. |
Clive, Captain Percy A. | Knowles, Sir Lees | Reid, James (Greenock) |
Coates, Edward Feetham | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Ridley, S. Forde |
Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. | Lawrence; Sir J. (Monm'th) | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney |
Compton, Lord Alwyne | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
Rutherford, John (Lancashire | Strutt, Hn. Charles Hedley | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R. |
Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln) | Tuff, Charles | Wylie, Alexander |
Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East | Tuke, Sir John Batty | |
Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk) | Walker, Col. William Hall | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia, |
Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lancs) | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. H. | |
Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. | Warde, Colonel C. E. | |
NOES. | ||
Ainsworth, John Stirling | Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. John | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
Barran, Rowland Hirst | Griffith, Ellis J. | O'Dowd, John |
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Hammond, John | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
Boland, John | Harcourt, Lewis | O'Malley, William |
Brigg, John | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil | O'Mara, James |
Bright, Allan Heywood | Helme, Norval Watson | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) |
Brown, G. M. (Edinburgh) | Higham, John Sharp | Power, Patrick Joseph |
Caldwell, James | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Priestley, Arthur |
Causton, Richard Knight | Jordan, Jeremiah | Rea, Russell |
Channing, Francis Allston | Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W | Reddy, M. |
Cheetham, John Frederick | Kilbride, Denis | Roche, John (Galway, East) |
Cogan, Denis J. | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) | Russell, T. W. |
Condon, Thomas Joseph | Lough, Thomas | Samuel, S. M. (Whitecbapel) |
Crean, Eugene | Mac Veagh, Jeremiah | Soares, Ernest J. |
Cremer, William Randal | M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | Sullivan, Donal |
Cullinan, J. | M'Crae, George | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
Dalziel, James Henry | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway | Markham, Arthur Basil | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) | Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, R. | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth |
Doogan, P. C. | Moss, Samuel | Wills, Arthur Walters (N Dorset |
Duffy, William J. | Muldoon, John | Wilson, Fred W. (Norfolk, Mid.) |
Ellice, Capt E C. (SAndrw'sB'ghs | Murphy, John | |
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | Nannetti, Joseph P. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Churchill and Major Seely. |
Farrell, James Patrick | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | |
Findlay, Alexander(Lanark, N E | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid. | |
Flavin, Michael Joseph | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
§ Question put accordingly, That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill."
906§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 116; I Noes, 71. (Division List No. 235.)
907§ Clause 3:—
§ Question proposed, "That the clause stand part of the Bill."
§ MR. SOARESsaid he desired to move the substitution of the word "shall" for the word "may."
THE CHAIRMANThe form of words in the clause is one which has been put into nearly every Act of Parliament and is consecrated by long usage; I cannot allow the Amendment.
§ MR. CHURCHILLsaid he failed to understand why the measure was brought 908 before the Committee at all if they were not to be allowed to move any Amendments whatever. He submitted that the drafting of the Bill was a matter within the competence of the House.
§ MR. J. A. PEASE (Essex. Saffron Walden)pointed out that only on Friday last several hon. Members objected to the Trustee Bill on the ground that "may" had been inserted instead of "shall," and it was only when the Government agreed to alter the word that the objections were withdrawn.
THE CHAIRMANsaid he must not be taken as ruling that the substitution of 909 "shall" for "may" would never be in order. All he said was that he could not accept it on the present occasion.
§ MR. CHURCHILLsaid that, in view of the fact that the Committee had now taken five divisions on end, and that under the last ruling not even a drafting Amendment could be moved, he would ask leave to move to report Progress.
§ MR. CHURCHILLasked to be allowed to state his reasons for the Motion. Unless the proceedings were to degenerate into a test of physical strength merely, he suggested that a few words of argument might occasionally be allowed to interrupt the procession through the lobbies.
§ MR. CHURCHILLThen you will not accept my Motion.
§ MR CHURCHILLsaid it was not for him to comment upon the refusal of the Chair, but he deeply regretted the decision. He could not help thinking that the Opposition had been treated in a manner that would be used against hon. Members opposite at no distant date. Members were allowed to criticise the wording of the clause, but they were not allowed to move Amendments to give effect to their 910 criticisms. He could not move to substitute "shall" for "may," though he might show that "shall" would he much more appropriate than "may." "Shall" was of an imperative nature, and was therefore much more in harmony with the manner in which the Bill had been forced through Committee. Then, too, the word "intituled" was more usual than the word "cited." An Act must be intituled something before it could be cited. On this point he would appeal to the Prime Minister as a literary man—
§ MR. CHURCHILLsaid nothing was farther from his desire. He asked where was the Chancellor of the Exchequer who, having imposed upon the House the odious task of sitting up, had now gone off somewhere to bed. A more discreditable example had never been set to a Party. He regretted that the Prime Minister, who had almost as much authority over the Chancellor of the Exchequer as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham, had not thought it proper to retain the services of his chief financial adviser in the conduct of this Bill.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURrose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
§ Question put, "That the Question be now put."
911§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 115; Noes, 70. (Division List No. 236.)
907AYES. | ||
Anson, Sir William Reynell | Clive, Captain Percy A. | Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred. |
Arkwright, John Stanhope | Coates, Edward Feetham | Kenyon-Slaney, Rt Hn. Col. W. |
Arnold-Forster, Rt Hn Hugh O. | Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Kerr, John |
Arrol, Sir William | Compton, Lord Alwyne | Keswick, William |
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Corbett, T. L. (Down, North | Knowles, Sir Lees |
Balcarres, Lord | Davenport, W. Bromley | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) |
Balfour, Rt Hn. A. J. (Manch'r) | Dickson, Charles Scott | Lawrence, Sir J. (Monm'th) |
Balfour, Capt, C. B (Hornsey) | Doughty, Sir George | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) |
Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W (Leeds | Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers- | Lawson, Hn. H. L. W. (Mile End |
Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Fellowes, Rt Hn Ailwyn Edward | Lee, A. H. (Hants, Fareham) |
Banner, John S. Harmood- | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage |
Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin | Finch, Rt. Hn. George H. | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. |
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Finlay, Sir R B (Inv'rn'ss B'ghs) | Lockwood, Lieut.-Col A. R. |
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Fisher, William Hayes | Long, Rt. Hn Walter (Bristol, S- |
Bignold, Sir Arthur | Fitzroy, Hn. EdwardAlgernon | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft |
Bingham, Lord | Forster, Henry William | Lucas, Reginald J (Portsm'th |
Blundell, Colonel Henry | Galloway, William Johnson | Lyttelton, Rt. Hn. Alfred |
Bond, Edward | Gordon, J (Londonderry, South | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) |
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith | Gordon, Maj Evans (T'rH'mlets | Majendie, James A. H. |
Brassey, Albert | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Marks, Harry Hananel |
Brodrick, Rt. Hn. St. John | Hambro, Charles Eric | Milvain, Thomas |
Brotherton, Edward Allen | Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy |
Campbell, J H M (Dublin Univ.) | Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford | Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) |
Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H. | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Morpeth, Viseount |
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh. | Heath, Sir Jas. (Staffords N. W. | Morrell, George Herbert |
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hope, J F (Sheffield, Brightside | Morrison, James Archibald |
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn J A. (Worc. | Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil | Mount, William Arthur |
Chapman, Edward | Hunt, Rowland | Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) |
Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington) | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
Percy, Earl | Rutherford, W. V. (Liverpool) | Walker, Col. William Hall |
Pierpoint, Robert | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | Walrond, Rt Hn Sir William H. |
Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln) | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
Pretyman, Ernest George | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset |
Purvis, Robert | Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lanes.) | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R. |
Randles, John S. | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. | Wylie, Alexander |
Reid, James (Greenock) | Strutt, Hn. Charles Hedley | |
Ridley, S. Forde | Talbot Lord E. (Chichester) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia. |
Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M | |
Royds, Clement Molyneux | Tuff, Charles | |
NOES. | ||
Ainsworth, John Stirling | Flavin, Michael Joseph | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
Barran, Rowland Hirst | Gladstone, Rt Hn Herbert John | O'Connor, John (Kldare, N.) |
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Griffith, Ellis J. | O'Dowd, John |
Boland, John | Hammond, John | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
Brigg, John | Harcourt, Lewis | O'Malley, William |
Bright, Allan Heywood | Hardie, J Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | O'Mara, James |
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh | Helme, Norval Walton | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden |
Caldwell, James | Higham, John Sharp | Power, Patrick Joseph |
Causton, Richard Knight | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Priestley, Arthur |
Channing, Francis Allston | Jordan, Jeremiah | Reddy, M. |
Cheetham, John Frederick | Kennedy, Vincent P (Cavan, W | Roche, John (Galway, East) |
Cogan, Denis J. | Kilbride, Denis | Russell, T. W. |
Condon, Thomas Joseph | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
Crean, Eugene | Mac Veagh, Jeremiah | Seely, Maj J. E. B. (Isle of Wight |
Cremer, William Randal | M'Arthur, Wm. (Cornwall) | Soares, Ernest J. |
Cullinan, J. | M'Crae, George | Sullivan, Dona |
Dalziel, Janies Henry | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway) | Markham, Arthur Basil | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) | Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N. | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
Doogan, P. C. | Moss, Samuel | Wills, Arthur Walters (N. Dorset |
Duffy, William J. | Muldoon, John | Wilson, Fred W (Norfolk, Mid.) |
Ellice, Capt E C (SAndrw'sB'ghs | Murphy John | |
Evans, S. T. (Glamorgan) | Nannetti, Joseph P. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Russell Rea and Mr. Theodore Taylor. |
Farrell, James Patrick | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | |
Findlay, Alex. (Lanark, N. E.) | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid.) |
AYES. | ||
Anson, Sir William Reynell | Pinch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Morrell, George Herbert |
Arkwright, John Stanhope | Finlay, Sir R B (Inv'rn'ss B'ghs) | Morrison, James Archibald |
Arnold-Forster, Rt Hn Hugh O. | Fisher, William Hayes | Mount, William Arthur |
Arrol, Sir William | Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon | Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) |
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Forster, Henry William | Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington) |
Balcarres, Lord | Galloway, William Johnson | Percy, Earl |
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r | Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) | Pierpoint, Robert |
Balfour, Capt C. B. (Hornsey) | Gordon, Maj Evans (T'rH'mlets | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Pretyman, Ernest George |
Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Hamhro, Charles Eric | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col Edward |
Banner, John S. Harmood- | Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nderry | Purvis, Robert |
Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin | Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford) | Randles, John S. |
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Reid, James (Greenock) |
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Heath, Sir Jas. (Staffords N W. | Ridley, S. Forde |
Bignold, Sir Arthur | Hope, J F (Sheffield, Brightside) | Robertson, Herb. (Hackney) |
Bingham, Lord | Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
Blundell, Colonel Henry | Hunt, Rowland | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) |
Bond, Edward | Jeffreys, Rt. Hn Arthur Fred | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith | Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
Brassey, Albert | Kerr, John | Seely, Chas. Hilton (Lincoln) |
Brodrick, Rt. Hn. St. John | Keswick, William | Smith, Abel H (Hertford, East) |
Brotherton, Edward Allen | Knowles, Sir Lees | Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk |
Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lanes.) |
Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H. | Lawrence, Sir J (Monm'th) | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M |
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh. | Lawson, Hn. H L W (Mile End) | Strutt, Hn. Charles Hedley |
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor | Lee, A. H. (Hants, Fareham) | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
Chamberlain, Rt Hn J A (Worc.) | Legge, Col. Hn. Heneage | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
Channing, Francis Allston | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. | Tuff, Charles |
Chapman, Edward | Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
Clive, Captain Percy A. | Long, Rt Hn Walter(Bristol, S.) | Walker, Col William Hall |
Coates, Edward Feetham | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft | Walrond, Rt Hn Sir Wm. H. |
Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. | Lucas, Reginald J (Portsmouth) | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
Compton, Lord Alwyne | Lyttelton, Rt. Hn. Alfred | Whitmore, Chas. Algernon |
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
Davenport, Wm. Bromley | Majendie, James A. H. | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R. |
Dickson, Charles Scott | Marks, Harry Hananel | |
Doughty, Sir George | Milvain, Thomas | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia. |
Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers- | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | |
Fellowes, Rt Hn Ailwyn Edward | Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) | |
Fielden, Edward Broeklehurst | Morpeth, Viscount |
NOES. | ||
Ainsworth, John Stirling | Duffy, William J. | Mitchell, Edw (Fermanagh, N.) |
Barran, Rowland Hirst | Ellice, Capt E C (SAndrw'sB'ghs | Moss, Samuel |
Barry, E. (Cork, S. | Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan | Muldoon, John |
Boland, John | Farrell, James Patrick | Murphy, John |
Brigg, John | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Nannetti, Joseph P. |
Bright, Allan Heywood | Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. John | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) |
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) | Griffith, Ellis J. | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.) |
Caldwell, James | Hammond, John | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
Causton, Richard Knight | Harcourt, Lewis | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
Cheetham, John Frederick | Hardie, J Keir (Merthyr Tydvil | O'Dowd, John |
Churchill, Winston Spencer | Helme, Norval Watson | 0'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
Cogan, Denis J; | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | O'Malley, William |
Condon, Thomas Joseph | Jordan, Jeremiah | O'Mara, James |
Crean, Eugene | Kennedy, Vincent P (Cavan. W | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) |
Cremer, William Randal | Kilbride, Denis | Power, Patrick Joseph |
Cullinan, J. | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) | Priestley, Arthur |
Dalziel, James Henry | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Rea, Russell |
Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway | M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | Reddy, M. |
Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | Roche, John (Galway, East) |
Doogan, P. C. | Markham, Arthur Basil | Russell, T. W |
Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) | White, Luke (York, E. R.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. M'Crae and Mr. Higham. |
Seely, Maj J. E. B. (Isleof Wigbt | Whitley, J. H. Halifax) | |
Soares, Ernest J. | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) | |
Sullivan, Donal | Wills, Arthur Walters (N Dorset | |
Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | Wilson, F. W. (Norfolk, Mid.) |
§ Question put accordingly "That the Clause stand part of the Bill.
914§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 115; 'Noes, 70. (Division List No. 237.)
Hardie, J Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | Muldoon, John | Reddy, M. |
Helme, Norval Watson | Murphy, John | Boche, John (Galway, East) |
Higham, John Sharp | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Russell, T. W. |
Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Seely, Maj J E B (Isle of Wight) |
Jordan, Jeremiah | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid.) | Sullivan, Donal |
Kennedy, Vincent P (Cavan, W | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
Kilbride, Denis | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N. | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) | O'Dowd, John | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
MacVeagh, Jeremiah | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth |
M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | O'Malley, William | Wilson, Fred W. (Norfolk, Mid. |
M'Crae, George | O'Mara, James | |
M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | Pease, J, A. (Saffron Walden) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Soares and Mr. Wills. |
Markham, Arthur Basil | Power, Patrick Joseph | |
Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N | Priestley, Arthur | |
Moss, Samuel | Rea, Russell |
§ Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report the Bill, without Amendment, to the House."
§ MAJOR SEELYsaid he had given notice to move a new clause, and perhaps, if there was any question as to whether it was in order, he might be permitted to explain its purpose.
THE CHAIRMANsaid he did not think he could allow the hon. Member to make a speech on a new clause which he could not put to the House. He ruled the clause out of order, because he considered it a frivolous Amendment. It was a definition of the word "person," and stated "no one shall be deemed to be a person within the meaning of this Act unless he be a British subject." That struck him as being put in a spirit of irony. Moreover, it was clearly not a new clause, but ought to come as an addendum to Clause 2.
§ MR. SAMUEL EVANS,on a point of order, referred to the procedure laid down by the rules of the House with reference to new clauses.
THE CHAIRMANsaid that that procedure referred to Amendments that were in order, but he, having used his judgment to the best of his ability, had ruled the Amendment of the hon. Member for the Isle of Wight to be out of order.
§ MR. CHURCHILLunderstood the ruling of the Chair to refer only to the particular clause in question, and not in any way to impugn the right of Members to move new clauses to Consolidated Fund Bills.
§ MR. CHURCHILLI mean that your ruling is of a particular and not of a general character.
THE CHAIRMANMy ruling is directed to the Question before me and nothing else. It is a particular and not a general ruling.
§ MAJOR SEELYasked on what grounds, a Motion to make the word "person" apply to British subjects could be ruled out of order as frivolous.
THE CHAIRMANsaid he held it to be moved in a spirit of mockery, but he had 917 also said that even if that were not so it ought to come as an Amendment to Clause 2.
§ MR. CALDWELLpointed out that a definition appropriately came as a new clause, a ad in any case the matter could not have been dealt with on Clause 2 because that clause was closured.
THE CHAIRMANI will put the Question to the House. There must be an end to points of order at some time. The Question is that I report this Bill without Amendment to the House.
§ MR. CHURCHILL,on a point of order, said the Chairman had now given two reasons for ruling the Amendment out of order, viz., that it was frivolous, and that it was not moved in the proper place. He submitted that those two reasons could not be allowed to go together.
§ MR. CHURCHILLsubmitted, with great respect, that he did raise the point before the Question was put a second time.
AYES. | ||
Anson, Sir William Reynell | Balfour, Rt. Hn A. J. (Manch'r) | Bentinck, Lord Henry C. |
Arkwright, John Stanhope | Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. |
Arnold-Forster, Rt Hn HughO. | Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds | Bignold, Sir Arthur |
Arrol, Sir William | Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Bingham, Lord |
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Banner, John S. Harmood- | Blundell, Colonel Henry |
Balcarres, Lord | Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin | Bond, Edward |
§ MR. CHURCHILLThat was because of the uproar on the other side.
THE CHAIRMANI am sorry if there has been any misapprehension. I am only too glad to answer points of order. I am the servant of the Committee, bat questions of order have never been raised after the Question has been put the second time.
§ MR. CHURCHILLThen do I understand that you will not rule on my point of order?
THE CHAIRMANI do not like to set the precedent of allowing points of order to be raised after the Question has been put the second time.
§ MR. SOARESremarked that or the night when hon. Members from Ireland had difficulties with the Speaker at least three points of order were raised after the Question had been put a second time.
§ MR. JOSEPH DEVLIN (Kilkenny, N.)Might I suggest that you should send for the police?
§ Question put,
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 113; Noes, 70. (Division List No. 238.)
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Pierpoint, Robert |
Brassey, Albert | Heath, Sir Jas. (Staffords. N. W | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
Brodrick, Rt. Hn. St. John | Hope, J F (Sheffield, Brightside | Pretyman, Ernest George |
Brotherton, Edward Allen | Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
Campbell, J H M (Dublin Univ.) | Hunt, Rowland | Purvis, Robert |
Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H. | Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred | Randles, John S. |
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh. | Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col W | Reid, James (Greenock) |
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Keswick, William | Ridley, S. Forde |
Chamberlain, Rt Hn J. A. (Worc | Knowles, Sir Lees | Robertson, Herb. (Hackney) |
Chapman, Edward | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
Clive, Captain Percy A. | Lawrence, Sir J. (Monm'th) | Rutherford, John (Lancashire |
Coates, Edward Feetham | Lawson, Hn. H. L. W (Mile End | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H A. E. | Lee, A. H (Hants, Fareham) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W. > |
Compton, Lord Alwyne | Legge, Col. Hn. Heneage | Seely, Chas. Hilton (Lincoln) |
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East |
Davenport, William Bromley | Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. | Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk |
Dickson, Charles Scott | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol. S | Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lanes.) |
Doughty, Sir George | Lucas, Col Francis (Lowestoft) | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers- | Lucas, Reginald J (Portsmouth | Strutt, Hn. Charles Hedley |
Fellowes, Rt Hn Ailwyn Edward | Lyttelton, Rt. Hn. Alfred | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
Finch, Rt. Hn. George H. | Majendie, James A. H | Tuff, Charles |
Finlay, Sir R B (Inv'rn'ss B'ghs) | Marks, Harry. Hananel | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
Fisher, William Hayes | Milvain, Thomas | Walker, Col. William Hall |
Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Walrond, Rt Hn. Sir Wm. H. |
Forster, Henry William | Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
Galloway, William Johnson | Morpeth, Viscount | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) | Morrell, George Herbert | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
Gordon, Maj Evans (T'rH'mlets | Morrison, James Archibald | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R. |
Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Mount, William Arthur | |
Hambro, Charles Eric | Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia. |
Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nderry | Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington) | |
Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford) | Percy, Earl |
NOES. | ||
Ainsworth, John Stirling | Gladstone, Rt Hn Herbert John | O'Dowd, John |
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Griffith, Ellis J. | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
Boland, John | Hammond, John | O'Malley, William |
Brigg, John | Harcourt, Lewis | O'Mara, James |
Bright, Allan Heywood | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) |
Brown, George M (Edinburgh) | Helme, Norval Watson | Power, Patrick Joseph |
Caldwell, James | Higham, John Sharp | Priestley, Arthur |
Causton, Richard Knight | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Rea, Russell |
Channing, Francis Allston | Jordan, Jeremiah | Reddy, M. |
Cheetham, John Frederick | Kennedy, Vincent P (Cavan, W | Roche, John (Galway, East) |
Churchill, Winston Spencer | Kilbride, Denis | Russell, T. W. |
Cogan, Denis J. | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
Condon, Thomas Joseph | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Seely, Maj. J E B (Isle of Wight) |
Crean, Eugene | M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | Soares, Ernest J. |
Cremer, William Randal | M'Crae, George | Sullivan, Donal |
Cullinan, J. | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
Dalziel, James Henry | Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway | Moss, Samuel | Whitley, J. H (Halifax) |
Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) | Muldoon, John | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
Doogan, P. C. | Murphy, John | Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid |
Duffy, William J. | Nannetti, Joseph P. | |
Ellice, Capt E C (SAndrw's B'ghs | Nolan, Joseph (Louth South) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.Barran and Mr. Wills. |
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.) | |
Farrell, James Patrick | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | |
Flavin, Michael Joseph | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
§ Bill to be read the third time this day.
§ And, it being after One of the clock, Mr. Speaker adjourned the House with-
920§ out Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
§ Adjourned at twenty-five minute after Three o'clock a.m.