§ Considered in Committee.
§ (In the Committee.)
§ [Mr. GRANT LAWSOX (Yorkshire, N.R., Thirsk) in the Chair.]
§ Clause 1 agreed to.
§ Clause 2:—
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGE (Carnarvon Boroughs)said he should like to ask whether it was competent to move an increase. He was afraid it was not.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he should therefore have to move a reduction of £100 in order to protest against the obvious inadequacy of the amount placed at the disposal of the Public Works Loans Commissioners. They were a most admirable body of men, who worked very hard and spent their money very economically. They assisted very largely in the development of local works, and the sum placed at their disposal was the only limit to the beneficence of their administration. Therefore, in order to express the emphatic opinion that a larger sum should be placed at their disposal, the security of the rates being adequate, he should move a reduction of£100.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 2, line 9, to leave out the words 'five hundred thousand' and insert the words 'four hundred and ninety-nine thousand and nine hundred.'"—(Mr. Lloyd-George.)
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN,) Worcestershire, E.said he would like to join the hon. Member for Carnarvon, who was himself one of the Commissioners in his appreciation of the Public Works Loans Commissioners, but he hoped he 740 would not persist in his Amendment. The State had had to borrow largely on its own account, and the municipalities, which had been passing through difficult times, had had to have large recourse to the Local Loans Fund. The borrowing, therefore, could not continue on the same scale, and they had been obliged to restrict it. The sum this year was the same as that granted last year and was, he thought, sufficient to meet really urgent cases. He thought it was very undesirable that at the present time they should increase their charge upon the fund. He was in hopes that they would not have to raise any funds for this purpose in the current calendar year, and he thought it would be generally felt that they should have as little recourse as possible to the market at the present time. It would be better for the credit of all concerned. He had not been able to keep out of the market altogether, but he had endeavoured to restrict borrowings as much as was compatible with the due performance of their obligations. He hoped, therefore, that the hon. Member would agree that this was an Amendment which should not be pressed under the present circumstances, and that the Committee would sanction the same sum as was voted last year.
§ *MR. MCKENNA (Monmouthshire, N.)said he entirely agreed that it was most undesirable that they should go too frequently to the money market, but whether they increased the amount of the Local Loans Fund or not it would not affect the total amount of borrowings. The only thing the Local Loans Fund did was to enable local authorities to borrow more cheaply and thus to save the rates. By restricting the amount they would be penalising local authorities in compelling them to go to the money market. All those who had the interest of local authorities at heart should insist upon the amount being increased. They could borrow more cheaply from the Public Works Loans Commissioners than if they went into the open market; and the House had the alternative of agreeing to an increase of lecal rates or of continuing a system which had worked so admirably for a 741 great many years. He appealed to hon. Gentlemen opposite not to treat this as a Party question, but to consider the interests of the ratepayers.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 163; Noes, 137. (Division List No. 362.)
743| AYES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Morrell, George Herbert |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Flower, Sir Ernest | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer |
| Allhusen,Augustus Henry Eden | Forster Henry William | Mount, William Arthur |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Gardner, Ernest | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H. | Myers, William Henry |
| Arnold-Forster,Rt.Hn.HughO. | Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) | Nicholson, William Graham |
| Arrol, Sir William | Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Bal[...]arres, Lord | Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury) | Peel, Win. Robert Wellesley |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon.A. J.(Manch'r | Grenfell, William Henry | Percy, Earl |
| Balfour, RtHnGerald W.(Leeds | Gretton, John | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. | Groves, James Grimble | Pilkington, Colonel Richard |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Hamilton,Marq.of (L'nd'nderry | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashford | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Bathurst,Hon. Allen Benjamin | Heath,Sir James(Staffords.NW | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Helder, Sir Augustus | Purvis, Robert |
| Bill, Charles | Hill, Henry Staveley | Pym, C. Guy |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Hope, J.F.(Sheffield,Brightside | Randies, John S. |
| Bond, Edward | Hornby, Sir William Henry | Rankin, Sir James |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Howard, John(Kent,Faversham | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Brassey, Albert | Hozier, Hon. James HenryCecil | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Renwick, George |
| Brotherton, Edward Allen | Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred. | Ridley, S. Forde |
| Bull, William James | Jessel,Captain Herbert Merton | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Kennaway, Rt.Hon.SirJohnH. | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| Butcher, John George | Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh | Round, Rt. Hon. James |
| Campbell, J.H.M.(DublinUniv. | Keswick, William | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) |
| Carson, Rt.Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Kimber, Sir Henry | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Knowles, Sir Lees | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Cavendish,V.C.W.(Derbyshire) | Laurie, Lieut.-General | Sadler, Col. Sir Samuel Alex. |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles |
| Chamberlain, RtHnJ. A.(Wore. | Lawson, Hn.H.L.W. (Mile End | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Chapman, Edward | Lee, ArthurH.(Hants,Fareham | Smith, Abel H.(Hertford,East) |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Clive, Captain Percy A. | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Stanley, Hon.Arthur(Ormskirk |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Lockwood, Lieut-Col. A. R. | Stanley, Rt. Hon.Lord (Lanes.) |
| Colomb, Rt. Hon. Sir JohnC.R. | Long, Col.CharlesW.(Evesham | Stroyan, John |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Long, Rt.Hn.Walter(Bristol,S. | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile | Lowe, Francis William | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Davenport, William Bromley- | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Davies, Sir HoratioD.(Chatham | Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth | Tuff, Charles |
| Dewar, Sir T.R.(TowerHamlets | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | Turnour, Viscount |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Macdona, John Cumming | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Walrond, Rt. Hn.SirWilliamH. |
| Dixon-Hartland, SirFredDixon | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Doughty, Sir George | Martin, Richard Biddulph | Welby, Lt.-Col.A.C.E.(Taunton |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F. | Whiteley, H.(Ashton and.Lyne |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh. | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Melville, Beresford Valentine | Wylie, Alexander |
| Dyke, Rt. Hon.SirWilliamHart | Middlemore, JohnThrogmorton | Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong |
| Fellowes, RtHn.AilwynEdward | Milvain, Thomas | |
| Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Molesworth, Sir Lewis | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Finlay,Rt Hn SirR.B.(Inv'rn'ss | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Sir Alexander Acland-Hood |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Morgan, DavidJ(Walthamstow | and Viscount Valentia. |
| Fitzroy, Hon.Edward Algernon | Morpeth, Viscount | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N.E. | Benn, John Williams | Bryce, Rt. Hon. James[...] |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Boland, John | Burns, John |
| Baker, Joseph Allen | Bright, Allan Heywood | Buxton, N.E.(YorkNRWhitby |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Broadhurst, Henry | Caldwell, James |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) | Causton, Richard Knight |
| Cawley, Frederick | Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk. | O'Malley, William |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Isaacs, Rufus Daniel | O'Mara, James |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Joicey, Sir James | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Cogan, Denis J. | Jones,DavidBrynmor(Swansea | O'Shee, James John |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Pearson, Sir Weetman D. |
| Crean, Eugene | Jones, William(Carnarvonshire | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) |
| Cremer, William Randal | Jordan, Jeremiah | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Cullinan, J. | Joyce, Michael | Rea, Russell |
| Delany, William | Kennedy,Vincent P.(Cavan,W. | Reckitt, Harold James |
| Devlin,CharlesRamsay(Galway | Lambert, George | Reddy,M. |
| Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N) | Lamont, Norman | Redmond, JohnE. (Waterford) |
| Dobbie, Joseph | Langley, Batty | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W. | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Doogan, P. C. | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs |
| Duffy, William J. | Leese, Sir JosephF.(Accrington | Roche, John (Galway, East) |
| Edwards, Frank | Levy, Maurice | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Elibank, Master of | Lough, Thomas | Rose, Charles Day |
| Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) | Lundon, W. | Runciman, Walter |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas | Lyell, Charles Henry | Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland) |
| Evans, SirFrancisH.(Maidstone | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel |
| Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Seely,Maj.J.E.B.(Isle of Wight |
| Eve, Harry Trelawney | M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | Sheehy, David |
| Farrell, James Patrick | M'Crae, George | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Ffrench, Peter | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) |
| Field, William | Mooney, John J. | Slack, John Bamford |
| Findlay, Alexander(LanarkN. E | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen | Sullivan, Donal |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Moss, Samuel | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Flynn, James Christopher | Muldoon, John | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E. |
| Fuller, J. M. F. | Murnaghan, George | Villiers, Ernest Amherst |
| Gladstone, Rt HonHerbert John | Murphy, John | Waldron, Laurence Ambrose |
| Grant, Corrie | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Nolan, Col. JohnP.(Galway,N. | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Weir, James Galloway |
| Hammond, John | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Harcourt, Lewis | O'Brien,Kendal(Tipperary,Mid | Whiteley, George (York, W.R.) |
| Hardie, J.Keir(MerthyrTydvil) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Harrington, Timothy | O'Connor,James (Wicklow,W. | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Harwood, George | O'Connor, John Kildare, N.) | Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R. |
| Hayden, John Patrick | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | |
| Healy, Timothy Michael | O'Dowd, John | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | MR. Lloyd-George and Mr. |
| Higham, John Sharp | O'Kelly,James(Roscommon,N. | M'Kenna. |
§ Clause 2 agreed to.
§ Remaining clauses agreed to.
§ Schedule.
§ MR. WHITLEY (Halifax)said there were one or two matters on which the Committee ought to have some information. He was glad to see, from the White Paper which had been issued, that the amount of bad debts was so small. In the case of one item, however, he noticed that the debt had bean secured on land which did not belong to the person to whom the money was lent. Could the hon. Gentleman say whose fault that was? There were also one or two other items, which he would not go into, that required explanation.
§ THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. VICTOR CAVENDISH) Derbyshire, W.said he was unable to give 744 any further information than was furnished in the White Paper. He could not say on whose shoulders the responsibility rested for the matter referred to by the hon. Member.
§ Schedule agreed to.
§ Bill reported, without Amendment; to be road a third time To-morrow.