HC Deb 03 August 1905 vol 151 cc195-215

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

[Mr. GRANT LAWSON (Yorkshire, N.R., Thirsk) in the Chair.]

Clause 1:—

MR. FLYNN (Cork, N.)

said the effect of the Amendment he desired to move would be to continue the Acts mentioned in the schedule until May 1st next, with the result that, instead of having the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill brought in at the fag end of the session, it would have to be introduced earlier in the year, when memories were fresh and proper attention could be paid to it. It was absurd to attempt to deal with legislation in the manner proposed by these Bills. The Acts dealt with totally dissimilar subjects, and had been in operation for periods varying from seventy to seven years. If any of them was a good measure why should it not be placed permanently upon the Statute-book? He did not think it was right to introduce a measure of this kind during the last week of the session. If ever

there was a session when such a Bill as this might have been brought in earlier it was this session. He protested against the system of legislating in this way at the fag end of the session, and he begged to move his Amendment.

Amendment proposed—

"In page 1, line 18, to leave out the words 'thirty-first day of December,' and insert the words 'first day of May.'"—(Mr. Flynn.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."

THE ATTORNEY - GENERAL (Sir ROBERT FINLAY, Inverness Burghs

) said he hoped the hon. Member would not press this Amendment to a division, because it would not have the effect which the hon. Member anticipated. The Government could not accept the Amendment, and he asked the House to pass the Bill in its present shape.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 204; Noes, 102. (Division List No. 336.)

AYES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Butcher, John George Fergusson, RtHn.SirJ.(Manc'r)
Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden Campbell, J.H.M.(DublinUniv. Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst
Anson, Sir William Reynell Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.
Arkwright, John Stanhope Cautley, Henry Strother Finlay, RtHnSirR.B.(Inv'rn'ss)
Arnold-Forster, Rt Hn.HughO. Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire) Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas
Arrol, Sir William Cayzer, Sir Charles William Fisher, William Hayes
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt.Hn. Sir H. Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Flannery, Sir Fortescue
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Chamberlain, Rt.Hon.J.(Birm.) Flower, Sir Ernest
Bailey, James (Walworth) Chamberlain, RtHnJ.A.(Worc) Forster, Henry William
Baird, John George Alexander Chamberlayne, T.(S'thampton) Gardner, Ernest
Balcarres, Lord Chapman, Edward Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J.(Manch'r) Clive, Captain Percy A. Godson, Sir AugustusFrederick
Balfour, RtHnGeraldW.(Leeds) Coates, Edward Feetham Gordon, J. (Londonderry, Sth.)
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.) Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Gordon, MajEvans-(Tr'H'mlets
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Coghill, Douglas Harry Goulding, Edward Alfred
Banner, John S. Harmood- Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Gray, Ernest (West Ham)
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Compton, Lord Alwyne Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)
Beach, Rt.Hn.SirMichaelHicks Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Grenfell, William Henry
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Dalrymple, Sir Charles Gretton, John
Bigwood, James Davenport, William Bromley- Groves, James Grimble
Bill, Charles Davies, SirHoratio D.(Chatham) Hall, Edward Marshall
Bingham, Lord Dickson, Charles Scott Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.
Blundell, Colonel Henry Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Hamilton, Marq.of(L'donderry)
Bond, Edward Doughty, Sir George Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Hardy, Laurence(Kent,Ashford
Brassey, Albert Duke, Henry Edward Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Dyke, Rt.Hon.SirWilliamHart Haslam, Sir Alfred S.
Brymer, William Ernest Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) Hay, Hon. Claude George
Bull, William James Fellowes, Rt.HnAilwynEdward Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley
Heath,SirJames(Staffords,NW) Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. Samuel, SirHarryS(Limehouse)
Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W Maxwell, W.J.H. (Dumfriessh.) Saunderson, Rt.Hn. Col. Edw.J.
Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Mildmay, Francis Bingham Sharpe, William Edward T.
Hill, Henry Staveley Milvain, Thomas Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Hope, JF. (Sheffield, Brightside) Molesworth, Sir Lewis Slona, Thomas Henry
Hoult, Joseph Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)
Howard, John(Kent, Faversham Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow Smith, Rt.Hn JParker(Lanarks
Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) Morpeth, Viscount Stanley, Hn.Arthur (Ormskirk)
Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil Morrell, George Herbert Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lancs.)
Hunt, Rowland Mount, William Arthur Stewart, Sir Mark J. M Taggart
Hutton, John (Yorks., N.R.) Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Stirling-Maxwell. Sir John M.
Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred. Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Stock, James Henry
Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton Nicholson, William Graham Stroyan, John
Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T.(Denbigh.) O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Keswick, William Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington Thornton, Percy M.
Knowles, Sir Lees Pemberton, John S. G. Tollemache, Henry James
Laurie, Lieut-General Percy, Earl Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Pilkington, Colonel Richard Tuff, Charles
Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Platt-Higgins, Frederick Vincent, Col.SirC.E.H(Sheffield
Lawson, Hn.H.L.W. (MileEnd) Plummer, Sir Walter R. Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Leel Arthur H.(Hants.,Fareham Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Walrond, Rt.Hn.Sir William H.
Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Pretyman, Ernest George Warde, Colonel C. E.
Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Welby, Lt.-Col.AC E.(Taunton)
Llewellyn, Evan Henry Purvis, Robert Welby, Sir CharlesG.E.(Notts.)
Long, Col.Charles W.(Evesham) Randles, John S. Whiteley, H.(Ashton und.Lyne)
Long, Rt. Hn.Walter(Bristol,S.) Rankin, Sir James Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Lonsdale, John Brownlee Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Lowe, Francis William Ratcliff, R. F. Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Loyd, Archie Kirkman Reed, Sir Edw. James (Cardiff) Wodehouse, Rt.Hn.E.R.(Bath)
Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) Reid, James (Greenock) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Lucas,ReginaldJ.(Portsmouth) Remnant, James Farquharson Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Renwick, George Wylie, Alexander
Macdona, John Cumming Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
MaCIver, David (Liverpool) Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Maconochie, A. W. Rolleston, Sir John F. L. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) Rutherford, John (Lancashire) Sir Alexander Acland-Hood
Majendie, James A. H. Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) and Viscount Valentia.
Harks, Harry Hananel Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Martin, Richard Biddulph Sadler, Col. Sir Samuel Alex.
NOES.
Allen, Charles P. Harrington, Timothy Murphy, John
Baker, Joseph Allen Hayden, John Patrick Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway,N.
Barran, Rowland Hirst Helme, Norval Watson Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Henderson, Arthur (Durham) O'Brien, Kendal(TipperaryMid
Bell, Richard Higham, John Sharp O'Connor, James (Wicklow,W.)
Black, Alexander William Holland, Sir William Henry O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk. Partington, Oswald
Bright, Allan Heywood Joicey, Sir James Pirie, Duncan V.
Broadhurst, Henry Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea Power, Patrick Joseph
Buxton, N.E.(YorkNR,Whitby Jones, Leif (Appleby) Priestley, Arthur
Buxton, SydneyCharles(Poplar Jones, William (Carnarvonshire Reckitt, Harold James
Caldwell, James Jordan, Jeremiah Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Cawley, Frederick Kennedy, P. J. (Westmeath,N.) Richards, Thomas
Channing, Francis Allston Lambert George Rickett, J. Compton
Clancy, John Joseph Lamont, Norman Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Crean, Eugene Langley, Batty Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Cremer, William Randal Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Roe, Sir Thomas
Crooks, William Leese, SirJosephF.(Accrington) Rose, Charles Day
Cullinan, J. Lloyd-George, David Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)
Delany, William Lough, Thomas Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Dobbie, Joseph Lundon, W. Seely, Maj.J.E.B.(IsleofWight)
Doogan, P. C. Lyell, Charles Henry Shackleton, David James
Edwards, Frank MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Fenwick, Charles MacVeagh, Jeremiah Shipman, Dr. John G.
Findlay, Alexander (LanarkNE M'Fadden, Edward Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Flavin, Michael Joseph M'Kean, John Slack, John Bamford
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) M'Kenna, Reginald
Grant, Corrie Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Soares, Ernest J.
Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Moss, Samuel Sullivan, Donal
Hammond, John Murnaghan, George Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr Whiteley, George (York, W.R.) Young, Samuel
Thompson, DrEC(Monaghan N. Whitley, J.H. (Halifax)
Toulmin, George Whittaker, Thomas Palmer TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Ure, Alexander Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.) Mr. Flynn and Mr. Patrick
Weir, James Galloway Wilson, John (Falkirk) O'Brien.
White, Luke (York, E.R.) Woodhouse, Sir JT(Huddersfi'd
MR. SOARES (Devonshire, Barnstaple)

moved to omit Sub-section 2 of Clause 1, which proposed that amending Acts, even although not mentioned in the schedule, should be continued. He protested against being asked to renew laws of which they were not even told the name. He hoped the Attorney-General would be able to furnish them with a satisfactory reason as to why this was necessary.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 20, to leave out Sub-section 2."—(Mr. Soares.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."

SIR ROBERT FINLAY

said he did not think the hon. Member quite appreciated the importance of this sub-section. The proposal of the hon. Gentleman was preposterous, for the sub-section was necessary to continue Acts named in the schedule, and the words to which the hon. Gentleman referred were merely inserted lest any amending enactment might have been overlooked.

MAJOR SEELY (Isle of Wight)

protested against the looseness of this method, and said it ought to be certain that no amending enactment was overlooked. He should not have taken part in the debate but for the extraordinary reply given by the Attorney - General, which was certainly not the kind of reply to which the Committee had been accustomed. That reply had resolved itself simply into a gross attack upon his hon. friend the Member for Donegal. [MINISTERIAL cries of "Oh, oh!"]

MR. SWIFT MACNEILL, Donegal, S.)

And I have not recovered yet.

MAJOR SEELY

said he wished to defend the principle which had been put forward by the mover of this Amendment. The contention of the Attorney-General was a most absurd one.

SIR ROBERT FINLAY

said it was possible that some amending Act might have been overlooked, and it was important to continue not only those in the schedule, but also any Act that might have been omitted.

MAJOR SEELY

said that he himself had been called to the Bar, and he knew that, although the statutes filled several volumes, it was not beyond the industry of the Attorney-General to find out what they contained. The State paid £32,000 a year for the Law Officers of the Crown, and if they could not do this work themselves they might at least set others to look through the statutes to find out what amending Acts should be put in the schedule.

MR. WEIR (ROSS and Cromarty)

said he was not surprised at the Answer given by the Attorney-General, who had lately been engaged in the discussion of Church matters. Of course he fell back on what were called "consuetudina practices." When large salaries were paid to the Law Officers of the Crown, why should not the work be done in a satisfactory manner? It was no satisfaction to him to be told that there might be some Acts overlooked. The Law Officers were well paid to do the work thoroughly, and the country was entitled to have it properly done, and not to have it treated in this shipshod manner.

MR. SOARES

asked leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 1 agreed to.

Schedule.

MR. SHACKLETON (Lancashire, Clitheroe)

moved to omit the first Act mentioned, the Linen Manufacturers (Ireland) Act, 1835, and the amending Acts. He did not think many Members of the House had examined this particular Act, and he was certain that the Law Officers of the Crown had not gone into it carefully or they would never allow it to be in the list of Acts to be continued. He had read through the Act, and it was well that the House should know what kind of legislation they were continuing from time to time. This was a law in restriction of trade, and if it was obsolete it should not be allowed to remain on the Statute-book. It was absolutely impossible to carry out a single clause of the Act. One of the provisions required that all cloth exposed for sale should be of equal cleanliness and quality. How could any linen manufacturer comply with that condition? It was further enacted that all flax or linen yarn should be exposed for sale between eight o'clock in the morning and two o'clcck in the afternoon. It was absurd to restrict dealing to those hours. The reason for passing the Act originally was, he believed, to restrict Irish trade, but he was glad to know that the linen industry of Ireland had withstood all the restrictions which the House had endeavoured to impose. The hon. Member referred to the requirements of the Act in regard to the way in which bundles of linen were to be made up, and the limitations as to widths, and stated that the whole thing was a farce. The Act also required that linen should be of equal fineness. It was impossible to spin linen or cotton of equal fineness throughout. He asked the Attorney-General or the Solicitor-General to say what position a manufacturer would be in if he bargained to sell 10,000 pieces at the market price ruling at the time the bargain was entered into, and if three months later the price went down and the buyer came forward and broke the bargain on the plea that the linen was not in conformity with the Act of Parliament. It was a fine point of law, and it had never been decided. The Act was an absurdity and should now be allowed to lapse.

Amendment proposed— In page 2, to leave out lines 7 to 10."—(Mr. Shackleton.)

Question proposed, "That the lines proposed to be left out stand part of the schedule."

THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WALTER LONG,) Bristol, S.

said the hon. Member who moved the Amendment had been unable to produce a single instance of practical injustice as the result of this enactment. The whole speech of the hon. Gentleman was intended to show that this was an Act which seriously interfered with the trade carried on by linen manufacturers. He had asked a Question as to what would happen in a case where a buyer endeavoured to get out of a bargain three months after it was made when there had been a fall in price. This Act would not interfere in the smallest degree with the carrying out of the bargain. [Cries of "Yes."] The hon. Member was wrong. He ignored the fact that this Act only had to do with the sale of goods in the open market. How on earth did that effect the linen merchants in Belfast? With all his knowledge the hon. Member, when he referred to this Act of Parliament, did not represent either the manufacturers or the operatives themselves. He could not give a single instance of hardship. [An HON. MEMBER: The Act is obsolete.] If that allegation was correct why not leave it? If it was true that all the provisions were not enforced it did not follow that it was not desirable to maintain parts of the Act He submitted that, in the absence of any evidence that injustice was done, and in the absence also of any petition against the Act from the manufacturers or the operatives, the Act should be renewed, because, it contained some sections which might be of value.

MR. CAWLEY (Lancashire, Prestwich)

observed that the right hon. Gentleman had not told the Committee what parts of the Act would be of any use. The Act, if put in force, might do serious injury to many people in the textile trades. If any man wanted to get out of a bargain he could plead the Act, and could get out of it.

MR. WALTER LONG

said that was absolutely incorrect. This Act only applied to goods sold in the open market.

MR. CAWLEY

said the right hon. Gentleman did not specify any portion; of the Act which could be put in force with advantage to anybody. The Act was of no use at all.

*MR. HIGHAM (Yorkshire, W.R. Sowerby)

said there was not a single clause in the five Acts now to be continued that was operative to-day. The Act under discussion was full of absurdities, and the amending Acts, which had been stated to be improvements on the original Act, only make matters worse. For instance, in the Act of 1835 the provisions and penalties were directed principally at the linen trade. Perhaps the most absurb provision was that which compelled either the weaver or the manufacturer to write in full his name and residence at each end of each piece. The Act of 1840 repealed nothing but gave power to constables and other officers to search houses without warrants and to apprehend persons even in the streets on suspicion and to lock them up. The Act of 1842 extended the provisions to cotton, hemp, flax, jute, woollens, and silk. The Act of 1844 in creased the hours during which certain actions became violations of the law. The Act of 1867, though short, extended still more of the provisions to the kindred textile trades. Then again, there were three other Acts of Parliament not named in the schedule which affected the original Act by repealing certain of the clauses. The Act of 37 and 38 Vict, repealed seven clauses-The Act of 53 and 54 Vict, repealed one clause, and the Act of 54 and 55 Vict, also repealed one clause. But in spite of all this he asserted that if a man with an obstinate turn of mind cared to take the matter up he could get convictions against every employer and every operative engaged in the textile

trades of Ireland. It was preposterous that such Acts should be left on the Statute-book.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 186; Noes, 99. (Division List No. 337.)

AYES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Fergusson, Rt.Hn.SirJ,(Manc'r M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)
Allhusen, Augustus HenryEden Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Majendie, James A. H.
Anson, Sir William Reynell Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Marks, Harry Hananel
Arkwright, John Stanhope Finlay, Rt HnSir RB.(Inv'rn'ss Martin, Richard Biddulph
Arnold-Forster,Rt.Hn.Hugh O. Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.
Arrol, Sir William Fisher, William Hayes Maxwell, W.J.H.(Dumfriesshire
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Fitzroy, Hon.Edward Algernon Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt.Hon.Sir H Flannery, Sir Fortescue Milvain, Thomas
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Flower, Sir Ernest Molesworth, Sir Lewis
Bailey, James (Walworth) Forster, Henry William Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Baird, John George Alexander Gardner, Ernest Morgan, David J(Walthamstow)
Balcarres, Lord Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H. Morpeth, Viscount
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Morrell, George Herbert
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds Gordon, J.(Londonderry,South Mount, William Arthur
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. Goulding, Edward Alfred Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Banner, John S. Harmood- Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury) Nicholson, William Graham
Beach, Rt.Hn Sir Michael Hicks Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Grenfell, William Henry Pease,HerbertPike(Darlington)
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Gretton, John Pemberton, John S. G.
Bigwood, James Groves, James Grimble Percy, Earl
Bingham, Lord Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry) Pilkington, Colonel Richard
Blundell, Colonel Henry Hardy, Laurence (Kent Ashford Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Bond, Edward Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th Plummer, Sir Walter R.
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Haslam, Sir Alfred L. Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Brassey, Albert Hay, Hon. Claude George Pretyman, Ernest George
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley Pryce-Jones, Lt. Col. Edward
Brymer, William Ernest Heath, SirJames(Staffords. NW Purvis, Robert
Bull, William James Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.) Randles, John S.
Butcher, John George Hermon-Hodoe, Sir Robert T. Rankin, Sir James
Campbell, J.H.M.(Dublin Univ. Hill, Henry Staveley Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Hope,J.F.(Sheffield,Brightside) Ratcliff, R. F.
Cautley, Henry Strother Hoult, Joseph Reed, Sir Edw. James (Cardiff
Cavendish, V. C.W. (Derbyshire Howard, John(Kent, Faversham Reid, James (Greenock)
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Howard, J. (Midd.,Tottenahm Remnant, James Farquharson
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Hozier, Hon. James HenryCecil Renwick, George
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Hunt, Rowland Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Chamberlain, Rt.Hon.J.(Birm. Hutton, John (Yorks., N.R.) Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Chamberlain, Rt Hn J.A.(Worc. Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred. Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Chapman, Edward Keswick, William Sadler, Col. Sir Samuel Alex.
Clive, Captain Percy A. Knowles, Sir Lees Samuel,SirHarryS.(Limehouse)
Coates, Edward Feetham Laurie, Lieut.-General Sharpe, William Edward T.
Cochrane, Hon, Thos. H. A. E. Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Sloan, Thomas Henry
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)
Compton, Lord Alwyne Lawson, Hn.H.L.W.(Mile End) Smith,RtHn J Parker(Lanarks)
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Lee, ArthurH.(Hants.,Fareham Stanley,Hon.Arthur(Ormskirk)
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Stanley, Rt.Hon. Lord (Lancs.)
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Davenport, William Bromley- Long,Col. Charles W (Evesham) Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Davies, Sir Horatio D.(Chatham Long, Rt.Hon.Walter(Bristol,S Stock, James Henry
Dickson, Charles Scott Lowe, Francis William Stroyan, John
Doughty, Sir George Loyd, Archie Kirkman Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth Thornton, Percy M.
Duke, Henry Edward Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Tollemache, Henry James
Dyke, Rt.Hon.Sir William Hart Macdona, John Cumming
Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) MacIver, David (Liverpool) Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Fellowes,Rt. Hn. Ailwyn Edward Maconochie, A. W. Tuff, Charles
Vincent, Col.Sir CEH(Sheffield) Whitmore, Charles Algernon Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Walrond, Rt.Hon.SirWilliam H. Willoughby, de Eresby, Lord
Warde, Col. C. E. Wilson, John (Glasgow) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C.E(Taunton Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B.Stuart- Sir Alexander Acland-Hood
Welby, Sir Charles G.E.(Notts.) Wrightson, Sir Thomas and Viscount Valentia.
Whiteley, H.(Ashton und.Lyne Wylie, Alexander
NOES.
Allen, Charles P. Hayden, John Patrick Rickett, J. Compton
Baker, Joseph Allen Healy, Timothy Michael Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Barran, Rowland Hirst Helme, Norval Waston Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Bell, Richard Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Roe, Sir Thomas
Black, Alexander William Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Rose, Charles Day
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Joicey, Sir James Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)
Bright, Allan Heywood Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Broadhurst, Henry Jones, Leif (Appleby) Seely. Maj. J.E.B.(Isle of Wight)
Buxton,NE.(York,NRWhitby Jones,William(Carnarvonshire) Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Caldwell, James Jordan, Jeremiah Shipman, Dr. John G.
Causton, Richard Knight Kennedy, P. J. (Westmeath.N.) Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Cawley, Frederick Lamont, Norman Slack, John Bamford
Channing, Francis Allston Langley, Batty Soares, Ernest J.
Clancy, John Joseph Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Spencer, RtHnC.R.(Northants)
Crean, Eugene Lundon, W. Sullivan, Donal
Cremer, William Randal Lyell, Charles Henry Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Crooks, William MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr)
Cullinan, J. MacVeagh, Jeremiah Thompson, Dr.E.C(Monaghan N
Delany, William M'Fadden, Edward Toulmin, George
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph M'Kean, John Ure, Alexander
Dobbie, Joseph M'Kenna, Reginald Weir, James Galloway
Doogan, P. C. Moss, Samuel White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Edwards, Frank Murnaghan, George Whiteley, George (York, W.R.)
Fenwick, Charles Murphy, John Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Findlay, Alexander(LanarkNE) Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway,N.) Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Flavin, Michael Joseph O'Brien, Kendal(TipperaryMid. Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Flynn, James, Christopher O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. Woodhouse, Sir J.T.(Huddrs'd.
Gladstone, Rt.Hn.Herbert John Partington, Oswald Young, Samuel
Grant, Corrie Pirie, Duncan V.
Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Power, Patrick Joseph TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Hammond, John Priestley, Arthur Mr. Shaekleton and Mr.
Harcourt, Lewis Reckitt, Harold James Higham.
Hardie, J.Keir(MerthyrTydvil) Redmond, John E. (Waterford
Harrington, Timothy Richards, Thomas
MR. FLYNN

, in moving to omit the Peace Preservation Act from the schedule, said a similar Motion had often been made from the Nationalist Benches, and would continue to be made as long as this invidious and iniquitous Act remained on the Statute-book. By this Act there were applied to Ireland principles which the Government would not dare to apply to any other part of the British Empire. When the Act was passed in 1881, by a majority of 145 to 34, for the purpose of intimidating and affronting the tenantry, the promise was given that it should remain in force only five years, and the hope was held out that it would not be necessary to retain it even for that period. Twenty year had elapsed since the supposed expiry of the Act, and still it remained for the permanent disarmament of the Irish people, inflicting upon them an indignity under which no other nation in Europe suffered.

The Act empowered the Viceroy, on his own initiative, with the advice of such unteachable landlords as Lord Barrymore, Lord Clonbrock, and the rest of the gang who were hounding on the Government to a bootless coercion campaign, to proclaim any district in Ireland, and it became an offence to possess arms. Persons might be arrested without a warrant on the suspicion of any constable. The Lord-Lieutenant might issue a search-warrant without the knowledge of the person against whom it was directed, and the people of the district were always at the mercy of the police. The Act was not only an anachronism, but a standing insult to the people of Ireland. The practical inconvenience of the measure was shown by the fact that no farmer could possess a gun, except under very severe restrictions, even for the protection of his crops or his household. Instances had been repeatedly given of farmers of good conduct who had been unable to obtain permission to have an ordinary shot-gun to protect their crops unless they were in good favour with the resident magistrate. The injustice was rendered greater by the long continuance of the Act, and it was no answer to say that because it had not been repealed, notwithstanding the promises of Ministers that it would not last more than five years, it might very well last another year. A distinguished soldier had receutly been endeavouring to impress upon the country the importance of training in rifle shooting. But if young Englishmen and Scotchmen were to receive such training, why should not a similar opportunity be given to Irishmen, who had proved themselves able to use offensive weapons as well as most populations. He entered an emphatic protest against the continuance of an Act which was not only an indignity to Ireland, but a lasting stigma on the honour and credit of British Ministers. He begged to move.

Amendment proposed— In page 4, to leave out lines 12 and 13."—(Mr. Flynn.)

Question proposed, "That lines 12 and 13 stand part of the schedule."

Mr. POWER (Waterford, E.)

said that when this Act was passed it was said that it would last only five years, and in their strong opposition to the Bill during the stormy debates which ensued the Irish Party had the active support of Lord Randolph Churchill. Ireland had had many Coercion Acts; as a rule they had been for a limited period, but the Arms Act had become a permanent Coercion Act. He did not believe the English Members had the slightest idea of how the Act was worked in Ireland, or of the process that had to be gone through to obtain a licence to carry even a fowling-piece. Resident magistrates, who were omnipotent in the matter, were selected for their antipathy to the Irish people, and consequently the people had no confidence whatever in their administration. The magistrates obtained all their information through the district inspectors, who were often the avowed enemies of the people. The average farmer objected to demean himself by approaching these officials, preferring to go without a gun even for the protection of his crops. Their action might be futile, but Irish Nationalists were bound to make their protest against this degradation of the people by such a statute.

MR. T. M. HEALY (Louth, N.)

asked the Committee to consider this matter from a constitutional point of view. A general election was imminent, and a new Ministry might soon come into power-Assuming that this Act was as essential a portion of the British Constitution as Magna Charta, as hon. Members opposite appeared to think, what would be the position of the present Government if their successors next session refused to renew the Act, and omitted it from the schedule of the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill? For ten years the hon. Gentlemen opposite had been in office, but they had not taken the trouble to make permanent an Act which they declared to be of the essence of Irish administration. Did not that show the hollowness of the whole position? According to the Dames of the Primrose League, the Liberals, when they came in, would be under the thumb of the Fenians of Ireland. Assuming that to be so, and that the next Government were under the power of the assassin, the moonlighter, and all the rest of the phantasmagoria of the Primrose League orators, what would happen to the unfortunate landlords? What chance would there be for "King and country," according to the argument of hon. Members opposite, when this Act was repealed? And who would be to blame except the Party who had been in power for ten years and had not troubled to make the Act permanent? He appealed to the Government not to say something to-day which they would have to unsay to-morrow.

MR. WALTER LONG

said the fault of the hon. Member was that he declined to be guided by experience. He had drawn a picture of what might happen in the next Parliament, but he had over-looked the fact that the Liberal Party had been responsible for the maintenance on the Statute-book of this Act of Parliament. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Montrose, when Chief Secretary for Ireland, made it clear that he regarded the measure, not as a coercive Act, but as a police regulation. No justification whatever had been put forward for the assertion that the Act was an insult to the Irish people. As to the supposed hardship on farmers through their alleged inability to obtain licences to carry guns, he would only say that in 1905 there had been 6,100 licences issued and only 500 applications refused. That did not sound as though the crows had been enjoying immunity from molestation through the restrictive operation of this Act. In one breath the Party opposite objected to the continuance of the Act, and in the next they complained that it had not been made permanent. If hon. Members opposite believed what they said, they could not do better than leave the Bill alone this year, and look to their friends to expunge the measures to which they objected as soon as they came into power. He believed that the Act operated without hardship; it was a very useful restriction with regard to the bearing of arms, and, for his own part, he would like to see it applied, not only to Ireland, but to the United Kingdom generally.

MR. DELANY (Queen's County, Ossory)

said they were bound to resist the re-enactment of this measure, no matter by which Party it was proposed. It was not a matter of sentiment; it was a very real grievance to the farming class. The Act was a penal measure, as offenders were liable to three months imprisonment or a fine of £20, and these punishments were inflicted by resident magistrates, who were the paid servants of the Executive. No reason had been shown why the statute should be re-enacted, and the Irish Party would give it their most strenuous opposition.

MR. T. HARRINGTON (Dublin Harbour)

thought the Chief Secretary would pause long before he attempted to apply to England such a measure as he had said was so useful in Ireland. Personally, he objected to the Act, not because it prevented the farmer from getting a gun, but because it was a badge of degradation and slavery that the people should be permanently debarred from carrying arms. As long as it continued it was a confession that the English Government were unable to govern Ireland. All shades of opinion looked upon the Act as a degradation, and many Loyalists had endeavoured to get the right to the use of arms, but had been refused lest the permission should have to be extended to the rest of the people.

MR. SWIFT MACNEILL

submitted that under the Bill of Rights every citizen had a right to bear arms, but that right was denied to the people of Ireland, the reason being that the English Government, whose dealings with Ireland ever since the Union had teen one tissue of force and fraud, were afraid to allow the Irish people to have

arms for fear they would use them to the advantage of their country. No less an authority than Lord Wolseley had declared that they had to take Irish regiments out of Ireland because they could not be trusted in their own land with arms in their hands. The continuance of this Act was a gross and fraudulent breach of faith, as he had shown on the Second Reading. As to the resident magistrates, by whom the Act was administered, it was known that one, appointed by the Prime Minister when Chief Secretary, was an officer who had been cashiered for fraud at the Cape. These were the gentlemen who had to decide whether or not licences should be given. It was a scandalous state of things from top to bottom. The Act was simply to disarm the Irish Catholics while the Orangemen were not disarmed. He protested against this infamous Act and asked that it should be removed from the Statute-book.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 157; Noes, 69. (Division List No. 338.)

AYES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst
Allusen, Augustus Henry Eden Cautley, Henry Strother Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.
Anson, Sir William Reynell Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire Finlay, RtHnSirRB.(Inv'rn'ss
Arkwright, John Stanhope Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Fisher, William Hayes
Arnold-Forster, Rt.Hn.Hugh O Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon
Arrol, Sir William Chamberlain, RtHnJ.A.(Worc. Flower, Sir Ernest
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Chapman, Edward Forster, Henry William
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt.Hn.SirH. Clive, Captain Percy A. Gardner, Ernest
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Coates, Edward Feetham Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.
Bailey, James Walworth) Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick
Baird, John George Alexander Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)
Balcarres, Lord Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Gordon, MajEvans(T' H'mlets
Balfour, Rt,Hon.A.J.(Manch'r Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury)
Balfour, Rt.HnGeraldW(Leeds Dalrymple, Sir Charles Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)
Banner, John S. Harmood- Davenport, William Bromley- Grenfell, William Henry
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Davies, Sir HoratioD.(Chatham Gretton, John
Bingham, Lord Dickson, Charles Scott Groves, James Grimble
Blundell, Colonel Henry Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Hamilton, Marq.of(L'nd'nderry
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Doughty, Sir George Hardy, Laurence(Kent,Ashford
Brassey, Albert Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akcrs- Harris, F. Leverton(Tynem'th
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Duke, Henry Edward Hay, Hon. Claude George
Brymer, William Ernest Dyke, Rt.Hn.Sir William Hart Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley
Bull, William James Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) Heath, SirJames(Staffords.NW
Campbell, J.H.M. (Dublin Univ Fellowes, RtHnAilwynEdward Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford,W.)
Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Mildmay, Francis Bingham Sloan, Thomas Henry
Hill, Henry, Staveley Milvain, Thomas Smith, AbelH.(Hertford, East)
Hope, J.F.(Sheffield,Brightside Molesworth, Sir Lewis Smith, RtHnJ.Parker(Lanark)
Howard, John(KentFaversham Morgan, DavidJ(Walthamstow Stanley, Hon.Arthur(Ormskirk
Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham Morpeth, Viscount Stanley, Rt.Hon.Lord(Lancs.)
Hozier, Hon. James HenryCecil Morrell, George Herbert Stewart, Sir MarkJ.M'Taggart
Hunt, Rowland Mount, William Arthur Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Hutton, John (Yorks., N.R.) Murray, Charles J. (Coventry Stock, James Henry
Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred. Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Stroyan, John
Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton Nicholson, William Graham Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Keswick, William O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Thornton, Percy M.
Knowles, Sir Lees Pemberton, John S. G. Tollemache, Henry James
Laurie, Lieut.-General Percy, Earl Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Pilkington, Colonel Richard Tuff, Charles
Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Platt-Higgins, Frederick Vincent, Col.SirCEH.(Sheffield
Lawson.Hn. H.L.W. (MileEnd) Plummer, Sir Wralter R. Walrond, Rt.Hn.SirWilliam H.
Lee, Arthur H.(Hants.,Fareham Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Warde, Colonel C. E.
Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Pretyman, Ernest George Welby, Lt.-Col.A.C.E.(Taunton
Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Welby, Sir Charles GE. (Notts.)
Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham Purvis, Robert Whiteley, H.(Ashton und.Lyne
Long, Rt.Hn.Walter(Bristol,S Rankin, Sir James Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth Ratcliff, R. F. Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Reed, Sir Edw. James (Cardiff) Wortley, Rt.Hon.C. B. Stuart-
Macdona, John Cumming Reid, James (Greenock) Wylie, Alexander
Maconochie, A. W. Renwick, George Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Majendie, James A. H. Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) TELLERS FOE THE AYES—
Marks, Harry Hananel Sackville, Col. S. G. (Stopford- Sir Alexander Acland-Hood
Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F. Sadler, Col. Sir Samuel Alex. and Viscount Valentia.
Maxwell, W.J.H.(Dumfriessh. Sharpe, William Edward T.
NOES.
Allen, Charles P. Jones, Leif (Appleby) Shackleton, David James
Barran, Rowland Hirst Jones, William(Carnarvonshire Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Bright, Allan Heywood Jordan, Jeremiah Shipman, Dr. John G.
Caldwell, James Kennedy, P. J. (Westmeath.N. Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Causton, Richard Knight Lamont, Norman Slack, John Bamford
Cawley, Frederick Langley, Batty Soares, Ernest J.
Channing, Francis Allston Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Spencer,Rt.Hn.C.R.(Northants
Clancy, John Joseph Lundon, W. Sullivan, Donal
Crean, Eugene MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Cremer, William Randal MacVeagh, Jeremiah Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr
Cullinan, J. M'Fadden, Edward Thompson, Dr.EC(Managh'n,N
Delany, William Murnaghan, George Toulmin, George
Dobbie, Joseph Murphy, John Weir, James Galloway
Doogan, P. C. Nolan, Col.JohnP.(Galway,N.) White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Findlay,Alexander(Lanark,NE O'Brien, Kendal(TipperaryMid Whiteley, George (York, W.R.)
Flavin, Michael Joseph Pirie, Duncan V. Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Gladstone, Rt.Hn.HerbertJohn Power, Patrick Joseph Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Hammond, John Priestley, Arthur Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Harrington, Timothy Redmond, Johr E. (Waterford Woodhouse, SirJT.(Huddersf'd
Hayden, John Patrick Rickett, J. Compton Young, Samuel
Healy, Timothy Michael Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Rose, Charles Day Mr. Flynn and Mr. Patrick
Higham, John Sharp Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland) O'Brien.
Jones, DavidBrynmor(Swansea Seely, Maj.J.E.B.(Isle ofWight

Bill reported, without Amendment; to be read the third time To-morrow.