§ 1. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £108,629, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1906, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of His Majesty's Secretary of State for the Home Department and Subordinate Offices."
§ SIR ALFRED THOMAS (Glamorgan-shire, E.)said that they had in the Watts-town explosion one of those dreadful calamities that from time to time shocked civilisation. Thoughtful people asked each other, were all the precautions that science and experience taught us exercised in those perilous industries. There were many reasons for fearing that such was not the case. They believed that many facts brought out by scientific research and practical experience were altogether ignored in the conduct of working in fiery seams. It was now more than twenty-seven years ago since he accompanied a scientist, who also was a near relative, for some two months in 1404 visiting all the great collieries then working in South Wales, for the purpose of collecting gas from blowers and other sources, and this scientist gave his experience in a work entitled "Coal Mine Gases and Ventilation." Among the facts that he brought to light was that an admixture of air and marsh gas which, under normal pressure, was non-explosive, would under greater pressure become explosive. The experiments were conducted with samples of air and gas free from coal dust. Those experiments proved why it was that explosions in colleries known to be comparatively free from gas, except in one or more small areas, would in the event of an explosion often extend to all the workings in that particular seam. Therefore he contended that the real point of danger was not that at which a quantity of gas and air would explode under atmospheric conditions, but the quantity that would explode under greater pressure. This, of course, was but one of many instances brought out by the gentleman to whom he had referred, and others wrorking in the same field.
Principal Griffiths, of the University College of South Wales and Monmouth, of which he had the honour to be President, was prompted to write a letter to his hon. friend the Member for the Rhondda in which he made some most valuable suggestions. They all regretted that this great labour leader was absent to-day, but they were also cheered with the fact that he had so far recovered that it needed physical force on the part of his medical attendant to restrain him from coming to the debate. They had seen that afternoon what a splendid lieutenant he had in the hon. Member for West Monmouth. He would read a paragraph of the letter of Principal Griffiths—
We have had Royal Commissions and we have the experience of practical men; but I make bold to believe that we have not yet had that real devotion of the highest scientific intellect which would enable us to say that all that human endeavour can do has been done. Suppose that we were able to devote to this matter some of the keenest intellects in the kingdom, the minds of men trained to accurate observation, to the consideration of experimental evidence and to the practical application of knowledge, I am so sanguine as to think that great results might follow.1405 It was a question whether the time had not arrived when another Royal Commission should be appointed to take the evidence now available. Since the last Royal Commission great strides had been made in scientific research and by later experience, and it would be well to have some such tribunal to focus the knowledge now scattered and widespread and make it available for practical purposes. In the admirable speech just made by his hon. friend the Member for West Monmouth, in which he showed his great mastery of the subject, he told them that some three inspectors were all that were employed to inspect the work of 85,000 men. Three inspectors for 85,000 men employed in the most hazardous and dangerous calling in the world ! Such a number was simply absurd. He would say that a large number of men should be employed, not the highly-paid inspectors as at present, but another class, one analogous to the engine-room artificers as compared with the engineer officers. There were to-day, thanks to the mining classes of the county councils, hundreds of young men in South Wales qualified to take any posts in colliery administration, and who would be admirably qualified to perform the duties he indicated. He would say that there should be one such inspector for every 2,000 men employed in mines, and then they would have some reason to believe that mines would be properly inspected.Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £108,529, be granted for the said Service."—(Sir Alfred Thomas.)
§ MR. RENWICK (Newcastle-on-Tyne)said he quite agreed that a Commission should be appointed to inquire into the Welsh mining disaster. The Home Secretary had said he did not think it necessary because there had been an inquest, but there was great difference between an inquest, when the minds of people were swayed by grief or sentiment, and a scientific inquiry such as had been asked for. As representing a centre of coal mining in the North of England, he felt extremely pleased that the Home Secretary had been able to give such figures as to the decrease in the number of accidents throughout the country. He well remembered the time, thirty or forty 1406 years ago, when accidents were much more frequent in the North of England than at present. It was many years since they had had so serious an accident as had lately taken place in South Wales, but he felt sure in such a lamentable event they would have been anxious for such an inquiry as was asked for by the Welsh Members. They all admired the heroism of the coal workers, and especially of those who formed the rescue party, and he thought the men had a great claim on the favourable consideration of the Home Secretary.
Another question he desire to ask was one with regard to the regulations proposed for dealing with the loading and unloading of ships. Shipowners in vain endeavoured to find out definitely what the regulations were, and as they were laid upon the Table of the House of Commons for forty days while Parliament was not sitting, there was no opportunity of discussing them. Under these regulations shipowners were called upon to provide appliances to safeguard life in connection with ships in dock. He was on board a ship in the docks that day, and it was pointed out to him that the gangway provided under the new regulations was never used by the sailors. Very often accidents were caused by the carelessness of the man. This often happened in mines, and every miner ought to keep watch on his fellows.
He asked the Home Secretary for information as to the action of magistrates in connection with motor fines; but the Chairman ruled that he could not refer to that subject. He (Mr. Renwick) then asked for information in regard to the working of the new Licensing Act, and the number of licences extinguished. Heasked, further, if any action was being taken in regard to magistrates who were passive resisters and refused to carry out the Education Act. He also referred to an increase of £6,500 in the item of contributions to certified reformatories and asked how it arose, and requested to be informed whether one increase of £1,481 in the item of salaries and allowances to inspectors was due to the increase in the number of women inspectors. He would also like to know whether any progress had been made in the rearrangement of the duties of 1407 the Home Office? It was a remarkable state of affairs that the Home Secretary should be both Minister of Justice and factory inspector.
§ MR. KEIR HARDIE (Merthyr Tydvil)said he hoped the Home Secretary would be able to give some assurance on the question of the increase of inspectors under the Factories Act. Last year there was a promise that something should be done, and two women inspectors had been transferred from the temporary to the permanent staff, but that was not an increase, and it was common knowledge that the need for an increase was very great. With regard to the Wattstown disaster he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would be able to give a more decided "reply when he again addressed the Committee. In the case of an explosion of such magnitude as this an independent inquiry should follow as a matter of course. The primary cause of explosions in mines was the accumulation of gas; but, as Professor Galloway stated, such accumulations of gas would be an impossibility under a proper system of ventilation.
In regard to the statement of the Home Secretary about the Berne Conference, he was sorry to hear the right hon. Gentleman say that the British representatives at the conference had not got a freehand and that they entered into that conference without being fully armed to agree to the decisions of the conference being binding on the Government. The Lon. Member for Stoke said that the only reason for that was to protect British manufacturers from foreign competition, but that he denied. He wished to ask the Home Secretary whether he would cause inquiry to be made into the disturbance in the streets of Manchester two days ago in connection with an unemployed procession. He admitted that if there was obstruction in the streets caused by such a procession, steps should be taken to prevent it, but he denied that it was part of the duty of the police to use force on that occasion, the question of the use of the streets being one for a civil action at law. No such force was necessary for the preservation of order, and he hoped that the Home Secretary would see to it that the rights and liberties of working men to demonstrate—which 1408 were already sufficiently restricted—should not be further interfered with.
§ MR. BURT (Morpeth)said he wished to emphasise the necessity for a careful examination of shot-firers, whose duties were very responsible. He thought these men should be allowed to confine themselves to their special functions and not have an addition to their duties of manual labour of other kinds. It was exceedingly desirable that there should be a special inquiry into the lamentable disaster in South Wales. The Home Secretary's statement that he would await the result of the inquest before deciding whether he would take steps to hold another inquiry was very good so far as it went, but in his opinion it did not go far enough. He agreed with the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil that an accident of this sort, involving the loss of 119 lives, was of itself a sufficient reason for a special and larger investigation than usually took place before a coroner. He joined with the hon. Member for East Glamorgan in the hope that the right hon. Gentleman would see his way to provide a wider inquiry into the question of accidents in mines, and that might to some extent supersede the necessity for that more limited inquiry.
The hon. Member for West Monmouth had referred to the Royal Commission which reported in 1886. That Commission was appointed in 1879 and he had the honour of being a member of it. There were several scientific men connected with it, and it made a complete and thorough investigation into everything connected with accidents in mines. They made hundreds of experiments, and the Commission demonstrated the enormous importance of coal dust as a factor in connection with mine explosions. In fact, they proved that quantities of gas that could not be detected by any ordinary methods of examination could with an admixture of coal dust become terribly dangerous in a mine. Some of the recommendations of the Commission had been carried out and immense advantage had occurred from its investigations. Even in the face of the accident that had occurred in 1409 South Wales he thought they should recognise that a great deal had been done in the way of endeavouring to prevent accidents in mines. Notably in the last ten or fifteen years there had been an enormous diminution in the number of fatalities in mines; that ought to encourage them to make further efforts to try to prevent these accidents and he hoped further steps would be taken in the matter.
He hoped the Home Secretary had not said his last word on the subject of investigation into the terrible disaster in South Wales; and he would associate himself with the remarks made as to the exceedingly narrow limits of time within which they were bound by the debate. He was sure the Home Secretary must be the first to admit that the debate had been very interesting and had covered a wide series of subjects. Under the circumstances the Home Secretary admitted that he could not say all it was necessary to say in replying to the various speakers who had taken part in the debate. In matters affecting the life, health, and well-being of hundreds of thousands, he might say millions of the population the House of Commons should be given opportunity for full discussion.
§ MR. AKERS-DOUGLASsaid the hon. Gentleman opposite had urged the importance of having the debates on this Vote at ah earlier period of the session in order that fuller opportunity might be given for discussion. He had pointed out before that the matter did not rest with him. He would have been glad to have the Vote taken earlier, hut the time when it was brought on rested more with hon. Members opposite.
§ MR. JOHN ELLIS (Nottinghamshire, Rushcliffe)We do not admit that.
§ MR. AKERS-DOUGLASsaid he knew that the Prime Minister himself constantly appealed to hon. Gentlemen on the other side to say what business should be taken, and the Government had done their best to carry out their desires. He had no wish to refer to this matter in a controversial spirit.
1410 He admitted that an important Vote of this sort ought to be taken at a time when it could be properly discussed. Hon. Members who had been in the House that day would agree with him that the discussion on all sides had been of a practical character, and that it had been carried on in a businesslike spirit with no desire to make Party capital out of it.
The chief subject which they had discussed was the unfortunate and regrettable mine accident which occurred recently. He had been asked whether he would order an inquiry into that accident. He had stated before that he was perfectly prepared to consider with an open mind whether an inquiry was necessary, but he did not think he could do so until he had received the verdict of the coroner's jury, the report of counsel, whom he had specially appointed to represent him on this occasion, and the reports of the two mines inspectors who also attended the inquest. It had been pointed out that though there was an inquest in the case of a fatal railway accident, the Board of Trade at once sent an inspector to hold an inquiry. In the same way in this case the Home Office sent their inspectors, and they had two inspectors attending the inquest and holding their inquiry practically at the same time. Those inspectors would make a special report to the Home Office. That was the practice which had been followed for many years past, and he knew of no instance in which advantage had been taken by the Home Secretary of Section 45 of the Act of 1887 to hold a special inquiry in England when an inquest had been held; but he would have no hesitation in taking that course, if it appeared to him that the inquest had been unsatisfactory or had failed to elicit the whole of the facts. He recognised that this disaster was of a mire terrible kind than we had had for some time in the mining industry. If, after the reports had been received, it should appear possible to obtain any further information, he should not hesitate to take the step of ordering a special inquiry.
The hon. Member for West Monmouth had referred to the fact that there had 1411 been no general inquiry into the question of explosions in mines. The hon. Gentleman had forgotten that a very strong Commission sat during the years 1891–1894 to inquire into the question of explosions from coal dust in mines, and that on the Report of that Commission the legislation of 1896 was based. The Act which was then passed gave extended powers of making special rules, and prescribed that only certain explosives might be used in fiery mines. That, however, was really a small point, and he did not wish to cavil at the speech which the hon. Member made on this occasion. He regretted from one point of view that he could not comply with the request of the hon. Member to order an inquiry now.
The hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil had referred to a conflict which took place between the police and a procession of unemployed in Manchester two or three days ago, and asked whether he proposed to hold an inquiry into the matter. As he pointed out the other day, he had only a limited power over the police forces other than the Metropolitan Police. The hon. Member stated, perfectly truly, at Question time that the powers which the Secretary of State had over the police arose from the fact that a portion of the cost of their maintenance came out of Imperial funds, and that it was possible by withholding the Home Office certificate of the efficiency of any particular force, to deprive that force of its contribution from the Exchequer. The case of the three defendants were sub judice, and was to be heard next week. Pending the decision of the magistra e he did not propose to take any action. If there was to be an inquiry, it would be, in the first instance, for the Manchester Watch Committee to hold it, and he certainly should not be disposed to interfere with the local authority unless they failed to hold an inquiry, if it was necessary, or unless the result of their inquiry was unsatisfactory. He should not interfere for any other reason. The Manchester Watch Committee quite recently held an inquiry into the
§ conduct of some of their constables, and that inquiry was conducted in: the most efficient manner. That was another reason which would prevent him from interfering until it could be shown that the watch committee were not conducting their affairs in the way they should do. He thought the watch committee were perfectly capable of managing their police force, and he further thought that, as far as he had been able to ascertain, the action of the police had been very proper on this occasion.
§ Much had been done by the Department in respect of making regulations for dangerous trades. Several sets of such regulations, including a set dealing with the ventilation of flax and linen factories, had been drafted, and published in draft for anyone who wished to make objections or criticisms. The right hon. Baronet the Member for Forest of Dean referred to the staff of inspectors, both male and female. He would point out that last year they added two female inspectors to the staff and with regard to the male and female inspectors alike, the sufficiency of the existing staff was under his consideration. The hon. Member for Clitheroe had called his attention to time cribbing, and had shown hum the drawings of a machine for registering the time worked by the engines. He was not aware how this invention worked, but the officials of his Department were considering whether it would be possible to make any use of it for the purpose of checking the abuse complained of.
§ And, it being Ten of the clock, the Chairman proceeded, in pursuance of Standing Order No. 15, to put forthwith the Questions necessary to dispose of the Vote under consideration.
§ Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £108,529, be granted for the said Service."
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 188; Noes, 246. (Division List No. 322.)
1417| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. K. | Atherley-Jones, L. | Barry, E. (Cork, S.) |
| Allen, Charles P. | Baker, Joseph Allen | Bell, Richard |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Barran, Rowland Hirst | Benn, John Williams |
| Black, Alexander William | Higham, John Sharp | Partington, Oswald |
| Boland, John | Holland, Sir William Henry | Paulton, James Mellor |
| Bright, Allan Heywood | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Horniman, Frederick John | Pirie, Duncan V. |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk. | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Burns, John | Isaacs, Rufus Daniel | Priestly, Arthur |
| Burt, Thomas | Jacoby, James Alfred | Rea, Russell |
| Buxton, N.E. (York, NR, Whitby | Joicey, Sir James | Reddy, M. |
| Caldwell, James | Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Reid, Sir R. Threshie(Dumfries) |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Cawley, Frederick | Jordan, Jeremiah | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Cheetham, John Frederick | Kearley, Hudson E. | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Kennedy, P. J. (Westmeath, N. | Robson, William Snowdon |
| Cogan, Denis J. | Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W. | Roche, John (Galway, East) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Kilbride, Denis | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Crean, Eugene | Kitson, Sir James | Rose, Charles Day |
| Cromer, William Randal | Lambert, George | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) |
| Crombie, John William | Lamont, Norman | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Crooks, William | Langley, Batty | Seely,Maj.J.E.B.(Isle of Wight) |
| Delany, William | Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W. | Shackleton, David James |
| Derlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Sheehy, David |
| Dobbie, Joseph | Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Doogan, P. C. | Levy, Maurice | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) |
| Edwards, Frank | Lewis, John Herbert | Slack, John Bamford |
| Elibank, Master of | Lundon, W. | Smith, Samuel (Flint) |
| Ellice, CaptEC(SAndrw'sBghs. | Lyell, Charles Henry | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Emmott, Alfred | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Spencer, Rt. Hn.C.R. (Northant |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas | M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | Sullivan, Donal |
| Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidstone | M'Fadden, Edward | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radclifre) |
| Eve, Harry Trelawney | M'Kean, John | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E. |
| Farrell, James Partick | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr |
| Fenwick, Charles | Markham, Arthur Basil | Thompson, Dr.E.C(Monaghan N |
| Ffrench, Peter | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Tillett, Louis John |
| Field, William | Moss, Samuel | Tomkinson, James |
| Findlay, Alexander(Lanark NE | Moulton, John Fletcher | Toulmin, George |
| Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | Muldoon, John | Trevelyon, Charles Philips |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Murnaghan, George | Villiers, Ernest Amherst |
| Flynn, James Christopher | Murphy, John | Wallace, Robert |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Nolan, Col.John P. (Galway, N.) | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Fuller, J. M. F. | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) |
| Gilhooly, James | Norman, Henry | Weir, James Galoway |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Grant, Corrie | Nussey, Thomas Willans | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid | Whiteley, George(York, W. R.) |
| Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N) | Whittaker, Thomas Palm, er |
| Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. | O'Connor, James (Wicklow. W. | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Hammond, John | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) |
| Harcourt, Lewis | O'Donnell, John (Mayo. S.) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid). |
| Hardie, J. Keir(MerthyrTydvil) | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Harrington, Timothy | O'Dowd, John | Woodhouse, Sir JT. (Huddersf'd |
| Harwood, George | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | Young, Samuel |
| Hayden, John Patrick | O'Kelly, James(Roscom, mon, N | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Hayter, Rt. Non. Sir Arthur D | O'Malley, William | |
| Helme, Norval Watson | O'Mara, James | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Mr. Tennant and Mr Richards |
| Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Parrott, William | |
| NOES | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Banbury, Sir Frederick George |
| Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden | Bailey, James (Walworth) | Banner, John S. Harmood- |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Baird, John George Alexander | Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Balcarres, Lord | Bentinck, Lord Henry C. |
| Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. HughO | Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r | Bigwood, James |
| Arrol, Sir William | Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Bill, Charles |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Balfour, RtHnGeraldW. (Leeds | Bingham, Lord |
| Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir H | Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch | Blundell, Colonel Henry |
| Bond, Edward | Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. | Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury) |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Hamilton, Marq. of(L'nd'nderry | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Brown, Sir Alex. H (Shropsh.) | Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashford | Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington |
| Brymer, William Ernest | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley |
| Bull, William James | Haslam, Sir Alfred S. | Pemberton, John S. G. |
| Butcher, John George | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Percy, Earl |
| Campbell, J.H.M. (Dublin Univ | Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley) | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Carlile, William Walter | Heath, Sir James(Staffords, N. W | Pilkington, Colonel Richard |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Heaton, John Henniker | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Helder, Sir Augustus | Plummer, Sir Walter R. |
| Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire | Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.) | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hill, Henry Staveley | Pryce-Jones, Lt. -Col. Edward |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Hope, J. F(Sheffield, Brightside | Purvis, Robert |
| Chamberlain, RtHn. J. A. (Worc | Hornby, Sir William Henry | Pym, C. Guy |
| Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton | Hoult, Joseph | Randles, John S. |
| Chapman, Edward | Houston, Robert Paterson | Rankin, Sir James |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Howard, John(Kent, Faversham | Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne |
| Clive, Captain Percy A. | Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil | Ratcliff, R. F. |
| Coates, Edward Feetham | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Reed, Sir Edw. James (Cardiff) |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Hunt, Rowland | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.) | Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Jameson, Major J. Eustace | Renwick, George |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. ArthurFred. | Ridley, S. Forde |
| Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton | Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Keswick, William | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Cripps, Charles Alfred | Kimber, Sir Henry | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile | Knowles, Sir Lees | Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Laurie, Lieut. -General | Round, Rt. Hon. James |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Davenport, William Bromley | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) |
| Davies, Sir HoratioD. (Chatham | Lawson, Hn. H. L. W. (Mile End) | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Lee, ArthurH. (Hants., Fareham | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Lees, Sir Elliot (Birkenhead) | Sadler, Col. Sir Samuel Alex. |
| Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Samuel, SirHarryS. (Limehouse |
| Doughty, Sir George | Leveson-Gower, FrederickN. S. | Sandys, Lieut. -Col. Thos. Myles |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J. |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Lockwood, Lieut. -Col. A. R. | Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln) |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Long, Col. CharlesW. (Evesham | Seton-Karr, Sir Henry |
| Dyke. Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S. | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Egerton. Hon. A. de Tatton | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) |
| Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | Lowe, Francis William | Skewes-Cox, Sir Thomas |
| Faber. Edmund B. (Hants. W.) | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) |
| Faber, George Denison (York | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Smith, H. C. (Nbrth'mb. Tyneside |
| Fellowes, Rt. HnAilwyn Edward | Lucas, Reginald J. (Ports mouth | Smith, Rt. Hn. JParker(Lanarks |
| Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Maedona, John Cumming | Spear, John Ward |
| Finch, Rt. HON. George H. | Maclver, David (Liverpool) | Stanley, Hon. Arthur(Ormskirk |
| Finlay, RtHnSir R. B. (Inv'rn'ss | Maconochie, A. W. | Stanley, EdwardJas. (Somerset) |
| Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lanes. |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Majendie, James A. H. | Stewart, Sir MarkJ. M'Taggart |
| Fitzroy. Hon. Edward Algernon | Marks, Harry Hananel | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
| Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Martin, Richard Biddulph | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Flower, Sir Ernest | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. | Stroyan, John |
| Forster, Henry William | Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.) | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Foster, PhilipS. (Warwick, S. W. | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (OxfdUniv. |
| Galloway, William Johnson | Milvain, Thomas | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) |
| Gardner, Ernest | Molesworth, Sir Lewis | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Garfit, William | Montagu, Hon. J. Scott(Hants.) | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H. | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow | Tuff, Charles |
| Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) | Morpeth, Viscount | Turnour, Viscount |
| Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rHm'lets | Morrell, George Herbert | Vincent, Col. Sir CEH(Sheffield |
| Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- | Morrison, James Archibald | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) |
| Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | Walrond. Rt, Hon. Sir WilliamH |
| Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) | Mount, William Arthur | Warde, Col. C. E. |
| Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs. | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Welby, Lt, -Col. A. C. E. (Taunton |
| Grenfell, William Henry | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Whiteley, H. (Ashtonund. Lyne |
| Gretton, John | Myers, William Henry | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
| Groves, James Grimble | Nicholson, William Graham | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Hall, Edward Marshall | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Wodehouse, Rt.Hn.E.R.(Bath) | Wylie, Alexander | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hoo and Viscount Valentia |
| Wortley, Rt. Hon.C. B. Stuart. | Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H. | |
| Wrightson, Sir Thomas | Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong |
§ Original Question put.
1418§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 245; Noes, 190. (Division List No. 323.)
1421| AYES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Laurie, Lieut.-General |
| Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden | Duke, Henry Edward | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton | Lawson, Hn.H.L.W. (Mile End) |
| Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh. O. | Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham |
| Arrol, Sir William | Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) | Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Faber, George Denison (York) | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage |
| Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir H | Fellowes, RtHn. Ailwyn Edward | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S. |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Hanc'r | Llewellyn, Evan Henry |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Lockwood, Lieut. -Col. A. R. |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Finch Rt. Hon. George H. | Long, Col Charles W. (Evesham |
| Balcarres, Lord | Finlay, Rt. Hn. Sir R. B. (Inv'rn'ss | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S. |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas | Lonsdale, John Brownlee |
| Balfour, RtHnGeraldW. (Leeds) | Fisher, William Hayes | Lowe, Francis William |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christen) | Fitzroy, Hon. Ed ward Algernon | Loyd, Archie Kirkman |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Flower, Sir Ernest | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Forster, Henry William | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred |
| Bentinek, Lord Henry C. | Foster, PhilipS. (Warwick, S. W.) | Macdona, John Cumming |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Galloway, William Johnson | Maclver, David (Liverpool) |
| Bigwood, James | Gardner, Ernest | Maconochie, A. W. |
| Bill, Charles | Garfit, William | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) |
| Bingham, Lord | Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H. | Majendie, James A. H. |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Marks, Harry Hananel |
| Bond, Edward | Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) | Martin, Richard Biddulph |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Gordon, Maj. Evans(T'r Hm'lets | Massey-Mainwaring, Hon. W. F. |
| Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh.) | Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- | Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriess.) |
| Brymer, William Ernest | Greene. Henry D. (Shrewsbury) | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Bull, William James | Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs. | Milvan, Thomas |
| Butcher, John George | Grenfell, William Henry | Molesworth, Sir Lewis |
| Campbell, J.H.M. (Dublin Univ.) | Gretton, John | Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.) |
| Carlile, William Walter | Groves, James Grimble | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Hall, Edward Marshall | Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas p. | Morpeth, Viscount |
| Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire | Hamilton, Marq. of(L'nd'ndery) | Morrell, George Herbert |
| Cayzer, Charles Sir William | Hardy, Laurenee(Kent, Ashford | Morrison, James Archibald |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hare, 'Thomas Leigh | Morton, Arthur H. Aylrner |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Haslam, Sir Alfred S. | Mount, William Arthur |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A(Worc. | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) |
| Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton) | Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley) | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) |
| Chapman, Edward | Heath, Sir James(Staffords. NW. | Myers, William Henry |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Heaton, John Henniker | Nicholson, William Graham |
| Clive, Captain Percy A. | Helder, Sir Augustus | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens |
| Coates, Edward Feetham | Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.) | Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury) |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert. | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Hill, Henry Stavelev | Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington) |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside | Peel, Hn. Wm. RobertWellesley |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Hornby, Sir William Henry | Pemberton, John S. G. |
| Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Hoult, Joseph | Percy, Earl |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Houston, Robert Paterson | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Howard, John(Kent, Faversham | Pilkington, Colonel Richard |
| Cripps, Charles Alfred | Hozier. Hon. James Henry Cecil | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Plummet, Sir Walter R. |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Hunt, Rowland | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.) | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Davenport, William Bromley | Jameson, Major J. Eustace | Pryce-Jones, Lt. -Col. Edward |
| Davies. Sir HoratioD. (Chatham) | Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred | Purvis, Robert |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton | Pym, C. Guy |
| Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Kenyon, HomGeo. T. (Denbigh) | Randies, John S. |
| Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. | Keswick, William | Rankin, Sir James |
| Doughty, Sir George | Kimber, Sir Henry | Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Knowles, Sir Lees | Ratcliff, R. F. |
| Reed, Sir Edw. James (Cardiff) | Sharpe, William Edward T. | Tuff, Charles |
| Reid, James (Greenock) | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) | Turnour, Viscount |
| Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine | Skewes-Cox, Sir Thomas | Vincent, Col.Sir C.E.H.(Sheffield |
| Renwick, George | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) |
| Ridley, S. Forde | Smith, H.C.(North'mb Tyneside | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H. |
| Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas, Thomsn | Smith, Rt, Hn.J.Parker(Lanarks | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) | Welby, Lt. -Col. A.C.E. (Taunton |
| Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) | Spear, John Ward | Whiteley, H. (Ashtouund. Lyne |
| Rolleston, Sir John F. L. | Stanley. Hon.Arthur (Ormskirk) | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
| Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye | Stanley, Edward James(Somrset | Willoughby, de Eresby Lord, |
| Round, Rt. Hon. James | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancst) | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Royds, Clement Molyneux | Stewart, Sir J. Mark M'Taggart | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn.E.R.(Bath) |
| Rutherford, John (Lancashire) | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B.Stuart- |
| Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) | Stone, Sir Benjamin | Wrightson, Sir Thomas |
| Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- | Stroyan, John | Wylie, Alexander |
| Sadler, Col. Sir Samuel Alex. | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) | Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H. |
| Samuel, Sir HarryS. (Limehouse | Talbot, Rt, Hn.J.G. (Oxfd'Univ | Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong |
| Sandys, Lieut. -Col. Thos. Myles | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth | |
| Saunderson, Rt.Hn.Col.Edw. J | Thornton, Percy M. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia |
| Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln) | Tollemache, Henry James | |
| Seton-Karr, Sir Henry | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) | Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | Lundon, W. |
| Allen, Charles P. | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Lyell, Charles Henry |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Flynn, James Christopher | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift |
| Atherey-Jones, L. | Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | MacVeagh, Jeremiah |
| Baker, Joseph Allen | Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Fuller, J. M. F. | M'Fadden, Edward |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Gilhooly, James | M'Kean, John |
| Bell, Richard | Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John | M'Kenna, Reginald |
| Benn, John Williams | Grant, Corrie | Mansfield, Horace Rendall |
| Black, Alexander William | Griffith, Ellis J. | Markham, Arthur Basil |
| Boland, John | Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) |
| Bright, Allan Heywood | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Moss, Samuel |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. | Moulton, John Fletcher |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Hammond John | Muldoon, John |
| Burns, John | Harcourt Lewis | Murnaghan, George |
| Burt, Thomas | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | Murphy, John |
| Buxton, N.E. (York, NRWhitby | Harrington, Timothy | Nannetti, Joseph P. |
| Caldwell, James | Harwood, George | Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway,N.) |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Hayden, John Patrick | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. | Norman, Henry |
| Cawley, Frederick | Helme, Norval Watson | Norton, Capt. Cecil William |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Nussey, Thomas Willans |
| Cheetham, John Frederick | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Higham, John Sharp | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Cogan, Denis J. | Holland, Sir William Henry | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.) |
| Crean, Eugene | Horniman, Frederick John | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N. |
| Cremer, William Randal | Hutchinson, Dr. CharlesFredk. | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) |
| Crombie, John William | Isaacs, Rufus Daniel | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
| Crooks, William | Jacoby, James Alfred | O'Dowd, John |
| Delany, William | Joicey, Sir James | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
| Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) | Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, M |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | O'Malley, William |
| Dobbie, Joseph | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire | O'Mara, James |
| Doogan, P. C | Jordan, Jeremiah | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Edwards, Frank | Kearley, Hudson E. | Parrott, William |
| Elibank, Master of | Kennedy, P. J. (Westmeath. N. | Partington, Oswald |
| Ellice, CaptEC(S. Andrw'sBghs | Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W | Paulton, James Mellor |
| Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) | Kilbride, Denis | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) |
| Emmott, Alfred | Kitson, Sir James | Pirie, Duncan V. |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas | Lambert, George | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Evans. Sir Francis H.(Maidstone | Lamont, Norman | Priestley, Arthur |
| Eve, Harry Trelawney | Langley, Batty | Rea, Russell |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W. | Reddy, M. |
| Fenwick, Charles | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Ffrench, Peter | Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington | Richards, Thomas |
| Field, William | Levy, Maurice | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Findlay, Alexander(Lanark, NE | Lewis, John Herbert | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) | Sullivan, Donal | White, Luke, (York, E. R.) |
| Robson, William Snowdon | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Roche, John (Galway, East) | Tennant, Harold John | Whiteley, George (York, W.R. |
| Roe, Sir Thomas | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan. E | Whitley, J. H. (Halfax) |
| Rose, Charles Day | Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr) | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) | Thomas, JA(Glamorgan, Gower | Williams Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) | Thompson, Dr.EC(Monaghan, N | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R. |
| Seely, Maj. J.E.B. (Isle of Wight | Tillett, Louis John | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Shackleton, David James | Tomkinson, James | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) | Toulmin, George | Woodhouse, Sir JT. (Huddersf'd |
| Sheehy, David | Trevelyan, Charles Philips | Young, Samuel |
| Shipman, Dr.John G. | Villiers, Ernest Amherst | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) | Wallace, Robert | |
| Slack, John Bamford | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Soares and Mr. Layland Barratt. |
| Smith, Samuel (Flint) | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. | |
| Soames, Arthur Wellesley | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) | |
| SpencerRt. Hn.C.R. (Northants) | Weir, James Galloway |
§ The Chairman then proceeded to put severally the Questions, That the total amounts of the Votes outstanding in each Class of the Civil Service Estimates, included Supplementary Estimates, and the total amount of the Votes outstanding in the Estimates for the Navy, Army (including Ordnance Factories), and Revenue Departments, be granted for the Services defined in those Classes and Estimates.