§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That there be laid before this House a Return relating to Education for England and Wales, Scotland, and Ireland, for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1905, in the following form:—
1373§ THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF EDUCATION, (Sir WILLIAM ANSON, Oxford University)was understood to say that he had explained to the hon. Member why the Return could not be granted in the form asked for. The Scottish and Irish Offices had informed him that they could not supply the information desired. With regard to University education, that was a matter for the Treasury, and it would be extremely difficult to supply the particulars asked for in connection with secondary education. Certain portions of the Return could be given, and he suggested that the hon. Member should consult him as to the form in which it could be granted.
§ MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL (Kerry, W.)pointed out that practically all the information he asked for could be obtained from the Estimates, and the Departments concerned might very well compile the table showing the comparative amounts granted to the different parts of the Kingdom. The only reason he could give for the refusal to grant the Return was that the Government were afraid that it would prove that Ireland was very unfairly treated in the matter. Ireland received not a penny from Imperial funds for University or secondary education, while hundreds of thousands of pounds per annum were given to England and Scotland.
THE LORD-ADVOCATE (Mr. SCOTT DICKSON, Glasgow, Bridgton)said that so far as Scotland was concerned several of the particulars asked for could not be given, and the result, for the purposes for which the hon. Member desired the Return, would be altogether misleading. 1374 The Scottish Office were quite prepared to give the information so far as they had it, but the Return, if granted in the form asked for, would have to be based upon estimates and figures which would bring out an inaccurate result.
§ MR. THOMAS O'DONNELLasked which part of the Return it was that could not be given.
§ MR. FLYNN (Cork, N.)said that, in as much as the Government Departments were able to get from foreign countries Returns relating to such questions as armaments and so forth, there could not be much difficulty in the Board of Education getting from the Treasury the information required for this Return. He was unable to accept the statement that it could not be given. There was evidently some desire for concealment, and the refusal was only another proof of the changed attitude of various Departments towards the reasonable demands of Irish Members.
§ MR. T. M. HEALY (Louth, N.)pointed out that in the last Motion they asked for money for education, and it was refused; they now asked for information about education, and that also was refused. All the items of this proposed Return were important from the point of view of showing the discrimination against Ireland, but the House of Commons by its majority, and through the mouthpiece of the Education Department itself, refused to enable the comparison to be made. The House had given a magnificent exhibition of their incompetence to manage Irish affairs, and he congratulated them upon it.
§ DR. MACNAMARA (Camberwell, N.)submitted that all the figures asked for were in existence. The particulars required for the first twelve items were in the educational Blue-books for England and Scotland and the Report of the Commissioners for Ireland; those necessary for the next four or five were in the Blue-book issued annually in connection with grants made to University Colleges, and by the aid of those documents combined with the Census Returns all the particulars asked for could be given.
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 112; Noes, 124. (Division List No.134.)
1371| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) | Black, Alexander William | Caldwell, James |
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Boland, John | Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) | Channing, Francis Allston |
| Allen, Charles P. | Burke, E. Haviland | Clancy, John Joseph |
| Ambrose, Robert | Burns, John | Cogan, Denis J. |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S. ) | Burt, Thomas | Condon, Thomas Joseph |
| Crean, Eugene | Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W. | O'Dowd, John |
| Crooks, William | Kilbride, Denis | O' Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
| Cullinan, J. | Langley, Batty | O' Kelly James (Roscommon, N. |
| Delany, William | Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W. ) | O'Malley, William |
| Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway) | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) | O'Mara, James |
| Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) | Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington | O' Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Dillon, John | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Pirie, Duncan V. |
| Doogan, P. C. | Lough, Thomas | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Duffy, William J. | Lundon, W. | Priestley, Arthur |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Reddy, M. |
| Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Eve, Harry Trelawney | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Robson, William Snowdon |
| Farrell, James Patrick | M'Crae, George | Roche, John |
| Fenwick, Charles | M'Hugh, Patrick A. | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Ffrench, Peter | M'Kean, John | Rose, Charles Day |
| Field, William | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | Runciman, Walter |
| Findlay, Alexander (Lanark, N E | Markham, Arthur Basil | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) |
| Flynn, James Christopher | Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N. | Seely, Maj. JEB. (Isle of Wight) |
| Gilhooly, James | Mooney, John J. | Shackleton, David James |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Moss, Samuel | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Hammond, John | Murnaghan, George | Sheehy, David |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Murphy, John | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Healy, Timothy Michael | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Spencer, Rt. Hn G. R. (Northants) |
| Helme, Norval Watson | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Sullivan, Donal |
| Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid | Ure, Alexander |
| Higham, John Sharp | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | White, Luke (York. E. R.) |
| Johnson, John | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Jones, Leif (Appleby) | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. | Young, Samuel |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | |
| Jordan, Jeremiah | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir |
| Joyce, Michael | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) | Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan. |
| Kennedy, P. J. (Westmeath, N. | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile | Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H- |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Dalkeith, Earl of | Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W. |
| Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O. | Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Kerr, John |
| Arrol, Sir William | Dewar, Sir TR (Tower Hamlets) | Keswick, William |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Dickson, Charles Scott | Knowles, Sir Lees |
| Balcarres, Lord | Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph C | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon A J (Manch'r) | Doughty, Sir George | Lawson, Hn. H L. W. (Mile End) |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W (Leeds | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers | Lawson, John Grant (Yorks, N R |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart | Lee, Arthur H (Hants Fareham |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks | Fardell, Sir T. George | Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage |
| Bigwood, James | Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham |
| Bill, Charles | Finlay, Sir RB (Inv'rn' ss B'ghs) | Lowther, C. Cumb., Eskdale) |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Fisher, William Hayes | Lucas, Reginald J (Portsmouth) |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith | FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred |
| Bowles. Lt.-Col H F (Middlesex) | Forster, Henry William | Macdona, John Cumming |
| Brassey, Albert | Foster, Philip S (Warwick, S. W. | Maconochie, A. W. |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Galloway, William Johnson | Majendie, James A. H. |
| Brotherton, Edward Allen | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Malcolm, Ian |
| Bull, William James | Gordon, Hn. J E (Elgin & Nairn) | Marks, Harry Hananel |
| Butcher, John George | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Maxwell, Rt. Hn Sir H E(Wigt'n) |
| Campbell, J. H. M (Dublin Univ. | Hambro, Charles Eric | Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nderry | Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants. |
| Cavendish, V. C W (Derbyshire | Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th) | Morgan, David J) Walthamstow |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Haslett, Sir James Horner | Morpeth, Viscount |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley | Morrell, George Herbert |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn J. A (Worc. | Heaton, John Henniker | Muntz, Sir Philip A |
| Chapman, Edward | Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W. | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside | Nicholson, William Graham |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Hoult, Joseph | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Howard. John (Kent Faversham | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington |
| Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Hunt, Rowland | Percy, Earl |
| Pilkington, Colonel Richard | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles | Turnour, Viscount |
| Plummer, Sir Walter R. | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert | Vincent, Col Sir CEH(Sheffield) |
| Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Sharpe, William Edward T. | Webb, Colonel William George |
| Pretyman, Ernest George | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) | Welby, Lt.-Col ACE. (Taunton |
| Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | Smith, H. C (North'mb. Tyneside | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Purvis, Robert | Smith, Rt. Hn J Parker (Lanarks | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset). |
| Rankin, Sir James | Spear, John Ward | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Reid, James (Greenock) | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs. | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart |
| Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine | Stewart, Sir Mark J M'Taggart | Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H. |
| Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) | |
| Royds, Clement Molyneux | Tollemache, Henry James | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Rutherford, John (Lancashire) | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. | Sir Alexander Acland-Hood |
| Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) | Tuff, Charles | and Viscount Valentia. |
| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork. N. E.) | Griffith, Ellis J. | O'Brien, Kendal (TipperaryMid) |
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Hammond, John | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) |
| Allen, Charles P. | Healy, Timothy Michael | O'Connor, James(Wicklow W.) |
| Ambrose, Robert | Helme, Norval Watson | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Henderson. Arthur (Durham) | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Black, Alexander William | Higham, John Sharp | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) |
| Boland, John | Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk. | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
| Brigg, John. | Johnson, John | O'Dowd, John |
| Burke, E. Haviland | Jones, Lief (Appleby) | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
| Caldwell, James | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon N.) |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Jordan, Jeremiah | O'Malley, William |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Joyce, Michael | O'Mara, James |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Kennedy, P. J. (Westmeath, N.) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W. | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Cogan, Denis J. | Kilbride, Denis | Reddy, M. |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Langley, Batty | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Crean, Eugene | Law, Hugh Alex. (Dongal, W.) | Roche, John |
| Cullinan, J. | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Delany, William | Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington | Rose, Charles Day |
| Devlin, Charles Ramsay (Galway | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Runciman, Walter |
| Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) | Lough, Thomas | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) |
| Dillon, John | Lundon, W. | Seely, Maj. J. E. B (Isle of Wight) |
| Doogan, P. C. | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Shackleton, David James |
| Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Duffy, William J. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Sheey, David |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | M'Crae, George | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Ellis John Edward (Notts.) | M'Hugh, Patrick A. | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) |
| Eve, Harry Trelawney | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Markham, Arthur Basil | Sullivan, Donal |
| Fenwick, Charles | Marks, Harry Hananel | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Ffrench, Peter | Mitchell, Edw (Fermanagh, N.) | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Field, William | Montagu, Hon. J Scott (Hants.) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Findlay, Alexander (Lanark NE | Mooney, John J. | Young, Samuel |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Moss, Samuel | |
| Flynn, James Christopher | Murnaghan, George | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John | Murphy, John | Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan. |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Nannetti, Joseph P. | |
| Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Arkwright, John Stanhope | Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O. | Balcarres, Lord |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Arrol, Sir William | Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r) |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W (Leeds) | Gretton, John | Plummer, Sir Walter R. |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Hambro, Charles Eric | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nderry | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th | Pryce-Jones, Lt. -Col. Edward |
| Bill, Charles | Haslett, Sir James Horner | Purvis, Robert |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Bowles, Lt.-Col. H F (Middlesex | Heaton, John Henniker | Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine |
| Brassey, Albert | Henderson, Sir A (Stafford, W.) | Renwick, George |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Hope. J. F (Sheffield, Brightside | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Brotherton, Edward Allen | Hoult, Joseph | Round, Rt. Hon. James |
| Bull, William James | Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Butcher, John George | Hunt, Rowland | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) |
| Campbell, J. H M (Dublin Univ. | Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon Col. W. | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Ed. W. H. | Kerr, John | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh. | Keswick, William | Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Ashton Manor) | Knowles, Sir Lees | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn, J. A (Wore.) | Lawson, Hn. H. L. W. (MileEnd) | Smith, H. C. (North'mbTyneside |
| Chapman, Edward | Lawson, John Grant (Yorks N. R) | Spear, John Ward |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham) | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.) |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) | Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth) | Tuff, Charles |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | Turnour, Viscount |
| Davenport, William Bromley | Maconochie, A. W. | Vincent, Col Sir C H E (Sheffield) |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Majendie, James A. H. | Webb, Colonel William George |
| Dimsdale, Rt. Hn Sir Joseph C. | Martin, Richard Biddulph | Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C E(Taunton) |
| Doughty, Sir George | Maxwell, W. J. H (Dumfriesshire) | Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Dyke, Rt. Hn Sir William Hart | Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Morpeth, Viscount | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart |
| Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Morrell, George Herbert | Wrightson, Sir Thomas |
| Finlay, Sir R. B (Inv'rn'ssB'ghs) | Muntz, Sir Philip A. | Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H. |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | |
| Forster, Henry William | Nicholson, William Graham | TELLERS FOR THE NOES,—Sir |
| Foster, Philip S. (Warwick S. W.) | Parkes, Ebenezer | Alexander Acland-Hood and |
| Galloway, William Johnson | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington | Viscount Valentia. |
| Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Percy, Earl | |
| Gordon. Hn. J E (Elgin & Nairn) | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
§ MR. LOUGH (Islington, W.)said that this question of the granting of Returns was supposed to have been amicably settled, but now the whole question was to be reopened because of the refusal of Ministers to grant information most reasonably asked for. Members could not be expected to make these calculations for themselves, and he submitted that the refusal was one of the most outrageous ever made.
§ Question put.