Commons Sitting of 2 May 1904

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.
UNOPPOSED PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  PRIVATE BILLS [Lords] (STANDING ORDERS NOT PREVIOUSLY INQUIRED INTO COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKER Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, originating in
  86
  the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, viz:—Barnard Castle Gas Bill [Lords]. Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time.
  Barry Railway (Extension of Time, etc.) Bill [Lords]. Read the third time, and passed, without Amendment.
  Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway (Steam Vessels) Bill. As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
  Southport and Lytham Tramroad (Extension of Time) Bill [Lords]. Read a second time, and committed.
  Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill. Read the third time, and passed.
  Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 5) Bill. Read a second time, and committed.
  Local Government Provisional Orders (No 6). Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board relating to the County Palatine of Lancaster and the Counties of Rutland and Surrey, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Grant Lawson and Mr. Walter Long.
  Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 6) Bill. "To confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board relating to the County Palatine of Lancaster and the Counties of Rutland and Surrey," presented, and read the first time; to be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 168.]
  Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 7). Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board relating to Godalming, Haworth, Northallerton, and Tipton, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Grant Lawson and Mr. Walter Long.
  Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 7) Bill. "To confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board relating to Godalming, Haworth, Northallerton, and Tipton," presented, and read the first time; to be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 169.]
  Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 8). Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board relating to Kingswood, West Ham and the Knighton and Teme, the North-East Durham, and the South Shields Rural and Southwick-on-Wear, Joint Hospital Districts, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Grant Lawson and Mr. Walter Long.
  Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 8) Bill. "To confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board relating to Kingswood, West Ham and the Knighton and Teme, the North-East Durham, and the South Shields Rural and Southwick-on-Wear, Joint Hospital Districts," presented, and read the first time; to be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 170.]
  Local Government Provisional Orders (Gas). Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board relating to East Dereham and Neyland, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Grant Lawson and Mr. Walter Long.
  Local Government Provisional Orders (Gas) Bill. "To confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board relating to East Dereham and Neyland," presented, and read the first time; to be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 171.]
  Liverpool and London and Globe Insurance Company Bill [Lords] [Stamp Duties]. Committee to consider of authorising the imposition of a certain Stamp Duty in lieu of the Stamp Duties which would have been payable upon the deeds or assurances which, in case the Bill had not been passed into an Act, would have been required to pass to and vest in the company certain property (King's Recommendation signified), Tomorrow.—(Mr. Caldwell.)

  MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
  That they have agreed to—Great Northern and City Railway (Extension of Time) Bill; Corbridge Gas Bill, without Amendment.
  Hampton-in-Arden Gas Bill, with Amendments.
  That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confirm and give effect to arrangements between the Corporation of Manchester and the Manchester Ship Canal Company with respect to the financial relations between the two bodies and to empower the Manchester Ship Canal Company to raise further money by borrowing and to create additional capital; and for other purposes." [Manchester Ship Canal (Finance) Bill [Lords.]
  Also, a Bill intituled, "An Act to authorise the Urban District Council of Ebbw Vale to construct additional waterworks; and for other purposes." [Ebbw Vale Urban District Water Bill [Lords.]
  And also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to authorise the Urban District Council of Shipley to purchase the gas undertaking of Sir Titus Salt, Bart., Sons, and Company, Limited, and to acquire land, construct street works, consolidate their loans and borrow money; and for other purposes." [Shipley Urban District Council Bill [Lords.]
  Manchester Ship Canal (Finance) Bill [Lords]; Ebbw Vale Urban District Water Bill [Lords]; Shipley Urban District Council Bill [Lords]. Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

PETITIONS.
  HOUSING OF THE WORKING CLASSES, ETC., BILL.
  Petition from Battersea, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  LICENSING BILL.
  Petitions against; from Aberdeen (two); Forest Gate; Gloucester; High Ham; Barrowford; London; and Walworth; to lie upon the Table.
  LICENCES (RENEWAL).
  Petitions against alteration of Law; from Battersea (two); Walworth; St.; Pancras; Bolton; Somerton (two); Corris; and Cambridge; to lie upon the Table.
  PUBLIC HOUSES (CLOSING DURING ELECTIONS).
  Petition from South Ockendon, for legislation; to lie upon the Table.
  RATING OF MACHINERY BILL.
  Petition from Battersea, against; to lie upon the Table.
  SALE OF BUTTER BILL.
  Petition, from Grantham, against; to lie upon the Table.
  TRADES UNIONS AND TRADES DISPUTES BILL.
  Petition from Battersea, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  TRADES UNIONS AND TRADE DISPUTES (No. 2) BILL.
  Petition from Battersea, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION BILL.
  Petition from Battersea, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS. ETC.
  BARBADOS.
  Copy presented, of Amended Prison Rules relating to Visits and Instruction of the Chaplain, the Officers' Reward Fund, and Labour for Juvenile Prisoners [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  RAILWAY RETURNS (PRELIMINARY STATEMENT).
  Copy presented, of Return relating to the railways of the United Kingdom for the year 1903 (Preliminary Statement) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  GAS COMPANIES (METROPOLIS).
  Copy presented, of Accounts of the Metropolitan Gas Companies for the year 1903 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 153.]
  EAST INDIA (TIBET).
  Copy presented, of Further Papers relating to Tibet (in continuation of C. 1920) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  EAST INDIA (ROYAL INDIAN ENGINEERING COLLEGE).
  Copy presented, of Minutes of Evidence taken before the Committee appointed in 1903 to inquire into the expediency of maintaining the Royal Indian Engineering College, and other matters, together with an analysis and index of the evidence [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  EAST INDIA (ROYAL INDIAN ENGINEERING COLLEGE).
  Copy presented, of Reports and Correspondence relating to the expediency of maintaining the Royal Indian Engineering College, and other matters [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  Copies presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, Nos. 3148 to 3150 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  TRADE REPORTS (MISCELLANEOUS SERIES).
  Copy presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Miscellaneous Series, No. 608 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  CROWN AGENTS.
  Address for "Return showing the total amount, including loans, on which any commission was charged or received by the Crown Agents for the Colonies during each of the last five years, differentiating between (1) commercial, railway, and general business; and (2) financial, loan, and miscellaneous business; also the total amount of commission charged or received in each year; and also the separate totals debited and commission charged to each Colony and Protectorate in each of the said years."—(Mr. Austin Taylor.)
  WOOLLEN, WORSTED, AND SHODDY FACTORIES (INSPECTION).
  Address for "Return of the number of Woollen, Worsted, and Shoddy Factories subject to inspection under the Factory and Workshop Act, 1901, and the number of spindles, looms, and other machines used in such factories."—(Mr. Wanklyn.)
  EVICTIONS (IRELAND).
  Copy presented, of Return of the number of Evictions in Ireland for the quarter ended 31st March, 1904[by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  LAND LAW (IRELAND) ACT, 1887 (EVICTION NOTICES).
  Copy presented, of Return of Eviction Notices filed during the quarter ended 31st March, 1904 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  ROYAL UNIVERSITY OF IRELAND.
  Copy presented, of Royal Warrant approving of alterations in the Statutes [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  IRISH LAND COMMISSION (RULES).
  Copy presented, of Rules made in pursuance of Section 88, Sub-section 5, of the Irish Land Act, 1903, dated 23rd April, 1904 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

    Post Office Officials.
    MR. THORNTON: To ask the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been called to the fact that a copyist recently employed in the General Post Office, and who is now sixty-four years of age, has quite recently been promoted to be an assistant clerk (abstractor class) without examination, although he had failed in his examination, for a like position, in 1893; and whether he can explain the action of the Post Office, with the sanction of the Treasury, in compulsorily retiring a senior assistant clerk in the Post Office at the age of sixty-one on a pension of 15s. a week.
    (Answered by Lord Stanley.) It was recently found desirable to absorb as many as possible of the few men copyists remaining in the Post Office by appointing them to the class of assistant clerks. As the change was for the advantage of the service no examination was imposed. One of the officers thus treated is sixty-four years of age. The case of the assistant clerk to whom the hon. Member refers as having been retired at the age of sixty-one was carefully con-
    92
    sidered by my predecessor, who decided that his retention in the service would not be in the public interest. I see no grounds for dissenting from this decision.

    Female Learners in Post Offices.
    Sir JOHN LENG: To ask the Postmaster-General if he will say whether there is any recognised limit of the length of time that female learners, after becoming fully qualified, may be retained at the rate of 5s. per week before being appointed on the establishment; and whether, seeing that in several large provincial post offices there are a number of fully qualified female clerks receiving wages on which they cannot subsist, he will arrange that, until appointments are provided for them on the establishment, fewer learners will be taken into such offices.

    (Answered by Lord Stanley.) There is no fixed limit of time. Appointments to the establishment must necessarily depend on the occurrence of vacancies. The usual practice is not to appoint learners unless it may be expected that they will be appointed to an established post within two years. Where it is found that the occurrence of vacancies on the establishment is less frequent than was anticipated steps are taken to restrict the number of learners.

    Pensions of Temporary Clerks.
    MR. THORNTON: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury, in view of the fact that service rendered by certificated temporary clerks prior to 19th August, 1871, has been considered by the Government as equivalent to registered copyists' service for the purposes of the Treasury Minute of December, 1886, for bonus and gratuity on retirement, whether such service will be considered also equivalent to temporary copyists' service for the purposes of the Treasury Minute of 1st June, 1882; if not, and in view of the fact that both the temporary clerks and temporary copyists entered the service under the same conditions as to pension, and that the service of the temporary clerks commenced at a date even prior to that of the temporary copyists, whether such cases will be dealt with under Clause 3 of the Superannuation Act of 1887.

    93
    (Answered by Mr. Victor Cavendish.) The operation of the Treasury Minute of the 1st June, 1882, is expressly limited to the class known as "Writers," and I see no ground for extending it to other classes. As regards the application of Section 3 of the Superannuation Act of 1887, I am unable to make any general statement. Every case must be considered on its merits.

    The Bail Act.
    MR. LLOYD MORGAN: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the fact that the Bail Act, 1898, which empowers justices to dispense with sureties (if such course is not likely to defeat the ends of justice) in cases where a prisoner is committed for trial has produced only a very slight effect; and whether, in order to prevent prisoners, who are afterwards acquitted, from having been kept in prison to await their trial, he will consider the question of again bringing the provisions of the Bail Act under the notice of justices and their clerks.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.) The hon. Member will find some figures on this subject on page 22 of the Judicial Statistics for 1902. The Act quoted appears to have had some appreciable effect, for the percentage of prisoners released on bail pending trial has increased since the passing of the Act by nearly a fourth. This, I think, is a satisfactory result, for it must be remembered that the proportion of prisoners sent for trial who have no

    1894.

    1895.

    1896.

    1897.

    1898.

    1900.

    1903.

    Total.

    Bedford

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    1

    1

    Berks

    —

    1

    —

    —

    —

    —

    1

    2

    Bucks

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    Cambridge

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    2

    2

    4

    Chester

    4

    —

    4

    —

    —

    1

    2

    11

    Cornwall

    —

    —

    —

    1

    —

    1

    —

    12

    Cumberland

    —

    1

    —

    —

    3

    —

    6

    10

    Derby

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    1

    2

    3

    Devon

    —

    2

    1

    1

    2

    —

    3

    9

    Dorset

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    Durham

    —

    1

    2

    —

    1

    —

    26

    30

    Essex

    1

    —

    —

    —

    1

    —

    —

    2

    respectable friends willing to go bail for them, and who, nevertheless, could be released on their own recognisance without risk of failure of justice must necessarily be small. As the provisions of the Act are now well known, and as no evidence of any general reluctance to grant bail and no complaints of refusal to do so in individual cases reach the Home Office, I do not think that it is necessary for me to make any further communication in this matter to justices or their clerks.

    Licences Refused but Renewed on Appeal to Quarter Sessions.
    MR. COHEN: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will state the number of licences in each of the counties of England and Wales, and London separately, the renewal of which has been refused by the licensing justices in each of the years 1894 to 1903, and which have been renewed on appeal to quarter sessions.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.) The following table gives the number of cases (arranged in counties as desired by my hon. friend) in which quarter sessions have reversed the decision of licensing justices in regard to the renewal of licences, so far as is shown by the Parliamentary Returns on the subject:—Statement of the number of licences in each of the Counties of England and Wales, and London separately, the renewal of which has been refused by the licensing justices in the years 1894 to 1903, and which have been renewed on appeal to quarter sessions.

    1894.

    1895.

    1896.

    1897.

    1898.

    1900.

    1903.

    Total.

    Gloucester

    —

    —

    1

    —

    —

    —

    4

    5

    Hereford

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    Herts

    1

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    1

    2

    Huntington

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    Kent

    1

    2

    —

    —

    2

    1

    9

    15

    Lancaster

    10

    3

    4

    6

    8

    12

    20

    63

    Leicester

    —

    1

    —

    —

    —

    1

    1

    3

    Lincoln

    1

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    1

    London

    12

    4

    10

    13

    6

    9

    9

    63

    Middlesex

    3

    1

    1

    —

    —

    5

    2

    12

    Monmouth

    —

    —

    1

    —

    —

    —

    —

    1

    Norfolk

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    Northampton

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    Northumberland

    3

    2

    —

    2

    —

    —

    —

    7

    Nottingham

    —

    —

    —

    —

    1

    —

    —

    1

    Oxford

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    1

    1

    2

    Rutland

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    Salop

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    1

    1

    Somerset

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    1

    1

    Southampton

    —

    1

    2

    1

    —

    1

    3

    8

    Stafford

    6

    1

    2

    3

    —

    —

    8

    20

    Suffolk

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    Surrey

    1

    —

    —

    —

    —

    1

    2

    4

    Sussex

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    Warwick

    1

    2

    1

    —

    1

    3

    11

    19

    Westmorland

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    Wilts

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    Worcester

    1

    —

    1

    1

    1

    2

    1

    7

    York, East Riding

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    3

    3

    York, West Riding

    14

    1

    —

    —

    2

    —

    4

    21

    York, North Riding

    4

    1

    2

    2

    —

    —

    8

    17

    Anglesey

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    4

    4

    Brecon

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    Cardigan

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    1

    —

    1

    Carmarthen

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    2

    2

    Carnarvon

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    10

    10

    Denbigh

    1

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    1

    Flint

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    Glamorgan

    1

    —

    —

    2

    1

    2

    8

    14

    Merioneth

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    1

    2

    3

    Montgomery

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    Pembroke

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    1

    1

    Radnor

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    Totals

    65

    24

    32

    32

    29

    45

    159

    386

    N.B.—The figures for the years 1899 and 1901 are not available, and in 1902

    Gun Sights of H.M.S. "Centurion."
    MR. YERBURGH: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in view of the fact that the Admiralty would not have sent the "Centurion" to
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    there were no General Annual Licensing Meetings outside London.
    China if they did not consider her fit to go into action, the efficiency of the gun sights of H.M.S. "Centurion" was certified by the officers of H.M.S. "Excellent;" and, if not, what were the

    97
    reasons that led the Admiralty to suppose that the "Centurion" was fit to go into action.
    (Answered by Mr. Pretyman.) I have nothing to add to my reply to the hon. Member for King's Lynn of 18th February last,† to which I must refer my hon. friend.

    Cost of Raising of Submarine A 1
    SIR JOHN LENG: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he will state what sum has been, or will be, paid to the Neptune Salvage Company of Stockholm for raising the A 1 Submarine, distinguishing the amount contracted for and extras; was the plan of making the hull tight and pumping in air the proposal of the Salvage Company or the Admiralty; for how many days was the pneumatic pumping system continued; when was it resolved to lift the vessel in the ordinary way; and what length of time was occupied in raising her after the pneumatic system was abandoned.
    (Answered by Mr. Pretyman.) The sum due to the Salvage Company is £2,650; there are no extras. The plan of making the hull tight and pumping in air was the proposal of the Salvage Company, and was fitted and carried out by them on their own responsibility. The pneumatic pumping system was continued the whole time, from beginning to end, until she was placed safely in dock by the Salvage Company and was never abandoned. The lifting alluded to was simply an accessory to the pneumatic system.

    State Registration of Nurses.
    DR. THOMPSON: To ask the President of the Local Government Board if he will consent to appoint a small Select Committee to consider the advisability of the State registration of nurses.
    (Answered by Mr. Pretyman.) The subject of nursing generally is not within the province of my Department, which is only concerned with it as respects nursing in Poor Law institutions. I am not in
    † See (4) Debates, cxxx., 239.
    98
    a position to give the consent asked for in the Question.

    Educational Authorities neglecting to carry out the Education Act, 1902.
    MR. ALFRED DAVIES: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Education if he will state the names of the educational authorities in England and Wales against which complaints are alleged for not carrying out the duties of the Education Act, 1902; and if he now purposes holding any other inquiry than that of the Carmarthen County Council.
    (Answered by Sir William Anson.) As to the first part of the hon. Member's Question, it does not seem desirable that the Board should publish every complaint which may be addressed to them for real or supposed failure on the part of local education authorities to carry out the duties of the Education Act. As to the second part, the Board do not for the moment propose to hold another inquiry.

    Income Tax Collection in England and Scotland.
    Sir J. STIRLING-MAXWELL: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the fact that he is not prepared to publish the monthly Returns of income-tax collection, lie will state whether the difference between the systems of collection in England and Scotland results in the tax being collected earlier in England or in Scotland.
    (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) As the amount to be collected in England is about nine times the amount to be collected in Scotland, and as the number of assessments in England is about seven times the number in Scotland, it is scarcely possible that the collection in England could under any circumstances be completed quite as soon as in Scotland.

    Coal Exports.
    MR. D. A. THOMAS: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will give, for the three months ending 31st March last, the quantities of coal exported at declared values not

    99
    exceeding 5s., exceeding 5s. but not exceeding 6s., exceeding 6s. but not exceeding 7s., exceeding 7s. but not exceeding 8., and exceeding 8s. per ton; if his attention has been called to the fact that, during the quarter ending 31st December, 1903, the quantity of coal exported at values between 6s. and 7s. was less than 12 per cent, of the quantity shipped at values between 5s. and 6s., and less than 25 per cent, of the quantity shipped at values between 7s. and 8s. per ton; and whether the Customs authorities attribute the smaller quantity shipped between 6s. and 7s. to the remission of the shilling duty on coal exported at a price not exceeding 6s. per ton.
    (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) The quantity of coal exported during the three months ended 31st March last at a value not exceeding 5s. per ton was 334.782 tons; exceeding 5s. but not exceeding 6s. per ton, 944,413; exceeding 6s. but not exceeding 7s. per ton, 88,597; exceeding 7s. but not exceeding 8s. per ton, 707,897; exceeding 8s. per ton, 8,431,180. The Board of Customs have to official information as to the reason why smaller quantities are shipped at values between 6s. and 7s. per ton, and he explanation may be to some extent a matter of opinion. But I have no doubt that the cause suggested by the hon. Member has much to do with it.

    The National Debt.
    MR. McCRAE: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will state the basis of calculation on which the estimate of £6,600,000 as the contribution to the Sinking Fund for the reduction of the National Debt was made for the financial year 1903–4, in view of the fact that a sum of only £5,149,000 appears to have been so applied.
    (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) The amount actually issued to the National Debt Commissioners for repayment of the capital of the Debt, consisting (1) of the portion of the Terminable Annuities, representing principal; and (2) of the "New Sinking Fund," amounted in all to £6,509,932, as against the estimate of £6,600,000 given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer a year ago.
    100
    If we leave out of account the Transvaal repayment of £3,000,000, which was applied in extinction of Exchequer Bonds, the total "dead weight" debt was reduced within the year by £5,149,000. This, however, is the net sum. The reduction would have been £2,000,000 more, had it not been that a temporary advance of that amount was obtained from the Bank of England at the end of the year to strengthen the Exchequer balance. The balance had been temporarily depleted to that extent by issues to meet expenditure on capital account, which the National Debt Commissioners wore unable to replace within the year. It must be remembered that the amount by which the Debt is reduced in the year can never correspond with the amount of money applied in redemption of debt, because a given amount of cash will cancel either a larger or smaller amount of stock according as the stock stands below or above par, and because it seldom happens that the National Debt Commissioners are able to apply all the money issued to them within the year.

    Value of Licensed Premises.
    MR. PEELTo ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer by what method and on what scale is the value of licensed premises, referred to in Clause 2 of the Licensing Bill of 1904, determined by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue for the purpose of estate duty.
    (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) I will consider whether I can lay a Paper giving the desired information.

    Alcohol for Manufacturing Purposes.
    SIR ERNEST FLOWER: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will consider the possibility of allowing alcohol used for manufacturing purposes in the United Kingdom (such as the production of artificial dyes) to be freed from the payment of duty.
    (Answered, by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) Section 8 of The Finance Act. 1902, authorises the Commissioners of Inland Revenue to permit the use of duty-free spirits in any art or manufacture in which; it can be proved to their satisfaction that the use of methylated spirits would be unsuitable or detrimental. Under

    101
    this section the Commissioners have already granted permission for the use of duty-free spirits in a number of cases, and any further applications will be carefully considered.

    Imports of Impure Teas.
    Sir SEYMOUR KING: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has recently been called to the fact that the importation into the United States and Australia of low-grade, impure, and unwholesome teas has been stopped by legislation; whether he is aware that quantities of teas which have been rejected by the Customs authorities in those countries have been and are being shipped to this country, and, together with quantities of similar low quality teas imported direct, are being employed here for mixing with superior teas without incurring the penalties for adulteration under existing laws; and, if so, whether he will consider if, without disadvantage to the Revenue, he can introduce similar regulations for the exclusion of such teas from this country.
    (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) Only one case has been brought to my knowledge of the importation into this country of tea rejected in the United States or Australia. The legislation in the United States to which the hon. Member refers requires that imported tea should come up to certain selected standard samples. The terms of the Australian Law appear to correspond closely with the law in this country, which provides for the seizure or destruction of any tea which is either exhausted or mixed with other substances or unfit for human food, and in pursuance of the Customs regulations over 66,000 lbs. of tea were condemned in 1903. I do not think that any alteration in the existing system is required.

    Irish Congested Districts.
    Dr. THOMPSON: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if his attention has been drawn to the fact that application to schedule certain poor districts in Ireland as congested districts has been refused; and, f so, will he state what action he proposes
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    to take in the matter, in view of the provisions of the Land Act of 1903.
    (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) Congestion outside the scheduled districts can be dealt with under the Land Act of 1903. I refer the hon. Member to Section 6 (4) and (5), Section 7, Section 12, Section 21, and Section 75 of that Act.

    Yeomanry Drill.
    Colonel WYNDHAM-QUIN (Glamorganshire,S.): To ask the Secretary of State for War whether the drill, as now taught at the Yeomanry School of Instruction. Aldershot, differs considerably from that laid down in the last published edition of the Yeomanry drill book; and, if so whether it is intended to issue a revised drill book to the regiments of Imperial Yeomanry for their use during the current year.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Arnold-Forster.) The drill taught at the School of Instruction for Imperial Yeomanry Officers does not differ from that laid down in the last published Imperial Yeomany Training (1902), but Section 29, which contains "Troop Drill," has been amplified in order to thoroughly explain it. A revise of the book is now in course of preparation, but I am afraid that it may not be ready for issue in time for the current year's training.

  QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

    Suggested Naval Reserve Battery at Fraserburgh.
    MR. MACONOCHIE: I beg to ask the Civil Lord of the Admiralty if he can now say if it is intended to place a Naval Reserve battery at Fraserburgh, Scotland.
    The CIVIL LORD of the ADMIRALTY (Mr. ARTHUR LEE,): The establishment of a Royal Naval Reserve battery at Fraserburgh depends on whether the fishermen in the neighbourhood come forward in sufficient numbers to justify the expense of erecting one. A final decision has not yet been arrived

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    at as the requisite number of eligible men have not come forward up to the present.

    Pay of Army Nurses.
    Dr. FARQUHARSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he has been able to effect any improvement in the pay and position of the Army nurses.
    The SECRETARY of STATE FOR WAR (Mr. ARNOLD-FORSTER,): A Royal Warrant will shortly be issued under which the salary of a nurse is fixed at £40 a year, rising to £45 a year, instead of £30 to £35 as at present; whilst the pay of the higher classes of sister, matron, and principal matron are correspondingly increased. Under the new regulations the matron-in-chief will receive £300 a year, rising to £350. The pensions depend on the rates of pay, and are accordingly increased in proportion.

    Scottish Army Chaplains
    Captain ELLICE (St. Andrews Burghs)I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in appointing Scotch Army Presbyterian chaplains, he will endeavour to give to the Scottish Free Churches their fair share of such appointments.
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: The existing commissioned Presbyterian Chaplains belong to the Established Church of Scotland, the United Free Church of Scotland, and the Irish Presbyterian Church. The soldier's attestation form, on which his religion is stated, does not distinguish between the various sects of Presbyterianism, and it is not therefore possible to arrive at a division of Presbyterian Chaplains' commissions based on the proportionate strength of these three sects in the Army. But I can assure the hon. and gallant Member that there is every desire to make these appointments in such a way as to ensure that each of the recognised creeds should be adequately represented in the Army.

    War Office Reconstitution.
    Sir HOWARD VINCENT: I beg to ask the Secretary of
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    State for War if he can state what will be the financial effect at the War Office of the adoption of the recommendations of the Reconstitution Committee, bearing in mind the increase in the non-effective charges by the enforced retirement of officers on the headquarter staff with some time yet to serve.
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: I am not at present in a position to give any reply to this Question, but I hope to have an opportunity later on of giving this information in connection with a statement on the general reorganisation. I hardly know to what officers the hon. Member refers.
    Sir HOWARD VINCENT: The Military Secretary and the Adjutant-General.

    Destruction of Food Supplies during South African War.
    MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he will state the money value of food supplies which were destroyed as unfit for use during the South African campaign; and whether any of the loss has been made good by the contractors who provided such supplies.
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: I assume the hon. Member refers to the period subsequent to the cessation of hostilities as well as to the actual campaign. Records have not been kept of the smaller losses but the principal losses are as follows:—For the period from August, 1901, to the termination of the war in May, 1902—£29,567. For the period subsequent to this date, up to March last—£402,278. Where the contractors' liability has been established, they have made good the losses. The value of the supplies thus made good is £31,517. Of the £402,278 above referred to, the liability for the sum of £94,336 is still under the consideration of the law officers.
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: And how many of these contractors are Members of this House?
    [No answer was returned.]

    Imperial Yeomanry.
    MR. SEYMOUR ORMSBY-GORE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he will state the number of actual members of the Yeomanry forces who joined the Imperial Yeomanry for active service during the late war; and also what was the number of Volunteers enrolled in that force during the war.
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: The numbers of Yeomanry and Volunteers who joined the Imperial Yeomanry for service in South Africa, are, according to the quarterly returns, as follows: Yeomanry, 2,789; Volunteers, 6,209.

    The Guards' Cap.
    Sir CARNE RASCH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether it is proposed to introduce another new service cap for the Foot Guards.
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: No, Sir. No such change is in contemplation by the Army Council.

    Purchases for the Transvaal through the Crown Agents
    MR. ROSE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the system of purchases of supplies for the Transvaal through the Crown Agents of the Colonies includes requirements for such works as tramways, electric lighting, and roads for the municipalities of Pretoria and Johannesburg, or only requirements for Government Departments.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. LYTTELTON,): The system applies only to requirements for Government Departments and not to those for the municipalities.

    Transvaal Administration and the Crown Agents-
    MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the fact that it is the declared policy of the Government to treat the Transvaal as a self-governing colony in all matters in which Imperial interests
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    are not concerned, he will reconsider his decision to restrict the Transvaal Government to the Agents for the Crown Colonies in the purchase of supplies; whether this decision was on the advice of Lord Milner; and whether he will present to this House the correspondence which has passed on this subject, including any resolutions of protest adopted by chambers of commerce and other bodies in South Africa.
    MR. LYTTELTON: His Majesty's Government entirely adhere to their declared policy to treat the Transvaal as a self-governing colony in all matters in which Imperial interests are not concerned. Having regard to the Imperial guarantee of the Transvaal Loan, Imperial interests are concerned in the financial administration of the Transvaal. I propose to await the arrival of the resolutions of the chambers of commerce, and to give them full consideration. No evidence is yet before me which leads me to suppose that the general taxpayers in the Transvaal are, with knowledge of the facts, dissatisfied with the existing system which, in my judgment, operates to their advantage in respect both to economy and efficiency. Until such evidence is forthcoming I see no reason to reconsider the decision arrived at by my predecessor in this matter, in which I entirely concur and to which I have given effect. Lord Milner has accepted the practice under which imported supplies from England required for the Colonies are indented for through the Crown Agents. I will consider the question of presenting the correspondence when I have received the resolutions referred to, and, as at present advised, I see no objection to doing so.
    MR. AUSTIN TAYLOR: May I ask if the Transvaal Government is at liberty to purchase any supplies from representatives of foreign manufacturers on the spot, or have they to treat with the Crown Agents for those supplies?
    MR. LYTTELTONsaid he was not able, without notice, to speak of the practice referred to, but as a general rule, articles required at urgent notice might be purchased on the spot.

    South African Census.
    Major SEELY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can now state what is the total estimated adult male white population of the Transvaal and Orange River Colonies.
    MR. LYTTELTON: The results of the census which was taken on 17th April have not yet been communicated to me and can hardly as yet be available, but I have asked that I may have them at an early date.
    Major SEELY: When may we expect to have them?
    MR. LYTTELTON: The census was only taken on 17th April and the figures are not yet tabulated.
    Major SEELY: It is very important we should have the figures as soon as possible. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman can obtain some estimate?
    MR. LYTTELTON: I will consider that.

    White Labour in the Transvaal Mines.
    Major SEELY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can explain, why the proportion of white men employed in the Transvaal mines is half as large again as that which existed in the period before the South African War.
    MR. LYTTELTON: The explanation given by the mining engineers in their statement presented to the Secretary of State in January, 1903, will be found at page 340 of Cd. 1895. They point out that the white staff of a mine in its general departments cannot be materially reduced though it may not be working I at its full capacity, and the same cause is still in operation though to a reduced extent.

    Chinese Labour in the Transvaal Mines.
    MR. H. J. WILSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that under the late Boer Government in the Transvaal no coloured person was allowed to finish the preparation of the holes and to fire the charges for
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    blasting in the mines, these operations being performed by white labour; and whether the omission of the word "miner" from the list of trades (Schedule 1, Cd. 1941), from which the indentured Chinese in the Transvaal are to be debarred, will remove the above restriction and enable the mine-owners to employ Chinese to perform the operations mentioned, and thus to dispense entirely with the services of white miners.
    MR. LYTTELTON: The indentured Chinese are restricted under the Ordinance to unskilled work in the mines such as is usually performed by natives. This restriction would appear to exclude the Chinese from work of the class in which white men have hitherto been engaged.
    MR. H. J. WILSON: Why was the word "miner" omitted?
    MR. LYTTELTON: I have not the Order before me.
    MR. FENWICK: May I ask if the imported Chinaman, although he is not permitted to do machine drilling, may do hand drilling.
    MR. LYTTELTON: The hon. Gentleman asks me rather a highly technical Question. I do not think I can give a better test offhand than to say that the operations in which natives have usually been engaged are the measure of the unskilled work. That unskilled work may be done by the Chinese. Nothing else can be done.
    [No answer was returned.]

    Jamaica—Excise Match Duty.
    MR. McKENNA: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been drawn to the statement in the Report of the Governor of Jamaica that it is clear that the single match factory working in the island still enjoys a considerable amount of protection at the expense of the general revenue and the consumers of matches; and whether he can state what public services the owner of this factory has rendered which entitle him to this favour.
    MR. LYTTELTON: The present Excise duty on matches in Jamaica was established by a Colonial ordinance of 1901. The Secretary of State pointed out at the time that the duty was not as high as had been recommended by Sir David Barbour. I do not regard the present position of this question as wholly satisfactory, and am communicating with the Governor on the subject.

    The Mission to Tibet
    MR. LAMBERT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India if the Tibetan Expedition has yet been recognised by the Dalai Lama, or if lie has any information to show that the expedition will have to advance beyond Gyangtse.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Mr. BRODRICK,): The hon. Member will have seen from the Viceroy's telegram of the 25th April, which has been published in the newspapers, that the Chinese Amban has written from Lhasa to Colonel Young-husband, expressing the intention of proceeding to Gyangtse accompanied by a representative of the Tibetan Government. Beyond this information, I have nothing to add to the answer I gave a similar Question by the hon. Member on Monday last.†
    MR. LAMBERT: Is the Amban recognised by the Dalai Lama?
    MR. BRODRICK: I presume so, as he is to be accompanied by a Tibetan representative.

    The Somali Mullah and the Miiertain Tribe.
    MR. LAMBERT: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Mijertain tribe, with which the Somaliland Mullah is fighting, is a tribe under British protection; and whether the fact that the Mullah being thus engaged is consonant with the Government's information that the Mullah's power is broken.
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Earl PERCY,): The Mijertain
    † See. (4) Debates, cxxxiii., 1045.
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    tribe are not under British protection. The fact that they have attacked the Mullah is rather a confirmation than other-wise of the information to which the hon. Member refers.
    MR. LAMBERT: Is the power of the Mullah broken?
    Earl PERCY: I have said the fact that this tribe have dared to attack the Mullah goes rather to show his power is broken.

    British Garrison for Somaliland.
    MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether it is intended to occupy any portion of Somaliland by a military force; and, if so, for how long, and what the extent and cost of the force is to be.
    Earl PERCY: The question of the numerical strength of the force which it will be necessary to maintain in the protectorate after the withdrawal of the expedition is under the consideration of His Majesty's Government, and no announcement of their decision can at present be made.

    Illig.
    MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the force of British soldiers and sailors who captured a fort at Illig, in Italian Somaliland, in the presence, but without the help, of Italian forces, did so under orders from home; whether the place so captured was immediately handed over to the Italian authorities; and whether it is intended to continue these operations in a foreign possession.
    Earl PERCY: The answer to the first paragraph of the hon. Member's Question is in the affirmative. Illig will be placed in the hands of a tribe whose loyalty commands the confidence of the Italian Government, and no further operations are contemplated.

    Licensed Premises, Valuation for Estate Duty.
    MR. ASHTON: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state in what manner

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    and on what basis the Commissioners of I Inland Revenue value an estate, and more especially premises licensed for the sale of liquor, for the purpose of estate duty.
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN,): There is a Question on the Paper for to-morrow in the name of the hon. Member for East Somerset, asking for this information in the shape of a Paper to be laid upon the Table of the House. Perhaps that will be the most appropriate manner for dealing with it, and I will consider by to-morrow whether it is possible to grant the Paper.
    MR. LAMBERT: Will the Paper be available before the Second Reading of the Licensing Bill.
    MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I must not be taken as giving a pledge, as I am considering if I can lay a Paper; but if the information is to be given in that form I will endeavour to have it ready before the Second Reading of the Licensing Bill.
    MR. ASHTON: Can the right hon. Gentleman say if the value of a licensed house is generally based on the estimated annual rental value multiplied by so many years purchase?
    MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I am quite unable to answer that Question without notice.

    British Steamship Service to East Africa.
    MR. EVELYN CECIL: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the fact that His Majesty's Government have assented in principle to the policy of subsidising a direct British steamship service to East Africa, and intimated that a Committee would be appointed to consider the details, he can now stale the terms of the reference to the Committee and the names of its members.
    MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLATN: The Government, as stated in the Question, have assented in principle to the recommendation of the Select Committee on Steamship Subsidies in regard to a British
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    service to East Africa. It is obvious that this recommendation cannot be acted upon in the present state of the finances, but in the meantime the Government propose to appoint an Inter-Departmental Committee to work out the details. I am not yet in a position to give the names of the members of the Committee, but it will be composed of representatives of the Treasury, Foreign Office, Colonial Office, Admiralty, Board of Trade, India Office, and Post Office. The reference will be: "To inquire and report (1) what conditions should be prescribed for such a service; (2) what subsidy is likely to be required; and (3) what contributions may be expected from the British possessions or protectorates interested in the scheme." The Committee will also be at liberty to make any suggestions or recommendations on the subject generally which do not fall under the above heads.
    MR. BUCHANAN: Is it proposed to make India pay for this service?
    MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: We shall invite the India Office to consider the matter. It is for that Office to say whether it will contribute.

    Inquiry into Duties of Board of Trade and Local Government Board.
    MR. CLAUDE HAY: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer how many sittings Lord Jersey's Committee on the Pay and Duties of the Board of Trade, the Local Government Board, and other Departments have held during the last two months; when the Report of the Committee may be expected; and whether this House will be afforded an opportunity of discussing the Report of the Committee.
    MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: The Committee held their tenth meeting last Friday. I understand that they are now engaged in considering their Report,

    Duty on Stripped Tobacco.
    MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider the advisability of withdrawing the 3d. tax on stripped

    113
    tobacco and replacing it by an increased tax on imported cigars and cigarettes.
    MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir. I am unable to adopt this suggestion.

    Inebriate Homes—Detention Regulations.
    MR. LLOYD MORGAN): I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the case of a prisoner who was committed by the magistrate at the North London Police Court to two years detention in an inebriate home; whether, without the consent of the magistrate, the prisoner was released from the home after being detained there for ten months, and was again arrested for drunkenness; and whether he will consider the question of prohibiting the release of any such offender before the expiration of the term of detention without first obtaining the consent of the magistrate who committed the prisoner.
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Cochrane,) (for Mr. Akers Douglas): The facts of the case are as stated in the Question. It is much to be regretted that this person, whose prospects seemed good, should have relapsed; but the decision as to the time when an inebriate may properly be released on licence rests with the managers of the reformatory who have him under their immediate supervision; and the case does not seem to afford sufficient ground for interfering with their discretion in this important matter or for making its exercise dependent on the concurrence of the committing magistrate, who could not be in an equally good position for judging the chances that release under careful conditions might be in the inebriate's best interests.

    Unnecessary Licences—Refusals to Renew.
    MR. McKENNA: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for (he Home Department whether he ca give the number of licences, the renewal of which have been refused on the ground of being unnecessary, in each of the last two Years, and the total assess-
    114
    ment value in each year of such houses before and after the licences were refused.
    MR. COCHRANE (for Mr. Akers-Douglas): Taking the last two years for which Returns have been published, it appears that in 1900 justices refused to renew licences on the sole ground of their being not required in sixty-four cases, and in sixty-one other cases on that ground coupled with other grounds. In 1903 the figures were 220 and 201 respectively. I am afraid I have no means of answering the second part of the Question.

    The Licensing Bill.
    MR. ASHTON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will explain the meaning of the phrase, "value of licensed premises calculated as if this Act had not passed" in Clause 2, Sub-section 1, of the Licensing Rill; and will he state by whom and on what basis it is intended that the value of the difference shall be calculated.
    MR. COCHRANE (for Mr. Akers-Douglas): It is difficult, if not impossible, to compress into the form of Question and Answer a discussion of the meaning of isolated phrases in a Bill which is before the House and in an early stage. I venture to think that any explanation of the phrase quoted in the first paragraph of the Question that may be necessary may usefully be deferred till the Bill is under discussion in the House. As regards the second paragraph the sum to be calculated is the difference between the two values indicated in the clause, and the Commissioners of Inland Revenue will determine this on the ordinary principles of valuation.

    Licensing Bill—Annual Value of Licensed Premises.
    MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of the discussions upon the Licensing Bill, he will issue in a Parliamentary Paper the information as to the annual value of the licensed premises (included in the financial provisions of the Bill) upon which the Government has based the estimate given of the amount

    115
    which will be produced by the annual levy under Clause 3 (1) of the Bill; and whether he will arrange for such information to be given for each county and county borough in England and Wales.
    MR. COCHRANE (for Mr. Akers-Douglas): As was stated in answer to my right hon. friend the Member for East Somerset a few days ago,† the Secretary of State for the Home Department will be ready to give hon. Members all the information in his power on this point, and he is considering the best form for the purpose.
    MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: Will it be issued in the form of a Parliamentary Paper?
    MR. COCHRANE: My right hon. friend is considering the best form.
    MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: And at an early date?
    MR. COCHRANE: Yes.

    Administration of the Housing Acts.
    MR. CLAUDE HAY: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether, in accordance with The Housing Act, 1903, the administration of the Housing Acts has been concentrated in the Local Government Board, or whether the administration of those Acts is still divided between various Departments; and, in the latter alternative, what steps he has taken to give effect to the decisions of Parliament embodied in the said Act.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. WALTER LONG,: A portion of the administration of the Housing of the Working Classes Acts in London is vested in the Secretary of State, and has not at present been transferred to the Local Government Board. The Act of 1903 does not require that such a transfer shall be made, although it affords a means by which it may be effected. I am quite willing that the transfer shall be made, and I have been in communication with my right hon. Friend the
    † See (4) Debates, cxxxiii., 1033.
    116
    Home Secretary on the subject. The matter is not yet settled.
    MR. CLAUDE HAY: How long will it be before we get the decision?
    MR. WALTER LONG: Very soon, I hope.

    The Record Breaking Motor Car Tour.
    MR. CATHCART WASON: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board if he is aware that a record breaking motorcar tour is now being undertaken from Land's End to John o' Groats; and if the police will be instructed to take care that the provisions of Clause 9 of the Motor-Car Act, 1903, are not infringed in England.
    MR. WALTER LONG: I understand that the tour referred to came to an end last week. In any case, however, I have no authority to give instructions to the police.

    Motor-Cars in Hyde Park
    MR. CATHCART WASON: I beg to ask the hon. Member for Chorley, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, if motor-cars are limited to a speed not exceeding ten miles an hour in Hyde Park, Constitution Hill, and the Mall; and, if so, have the police instructions to summon persons exceeding that speed.
    LORD BALCARRES: The answer to the first part of the Question is in the negative. The police have instructions to summon persons driving in a dangerous manner or at an undue rate of speed, and the number of persons so summoned in 1903 was 108. Since 1st January last there has been only one summons.
    MR. CATHCART WASON: Is there no limit of speed imposed?
    LORD BALCARRESwas understood to say that the Parks did not come under the ordinary law in this respect, but it was provided by the regulations that the speed should be reasonable.

    Ventilation of the Vote Office
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the lion. Member for Chorley, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, if he will state whether any steps are being taken to provide ventilation for the Vote Office; and whether arrangements will be made to re-open the fireplace that a coal fire may be used, as formerly.
    Lord BALCARRES: The Vote Office is now ventilated to the outer air. What appears to be required is a rectification of the high temperature which will be effected by the supply of a smaller radiator. It is quite impossible to restore the open fireplace, seeing that the smoke flue does not deliver to the outer air, but to the Commons lobby shaft. The fireplace was closed consequent upon smoke nuisance which could not be obviated.
    MR. WEIR: Why not use anthracite coal, which gives no smoke?

    Welsh Education Grant
    MR. ALFRED DAVIES: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Education if he will say how the approximate amount of £680,000 will be apportioned between the council and voluntary schools in Wales and Monmouth shire; and what will be the extra amount received in respect of both schools over that for the year ending 31st August, 1902.
    THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (SIR WILLIAM ANSON,): The sum of £680,000 represents the total estimated amount of the Exchequer grants payable to local education authorities in Wales and Monmouth shire. The sum paid to each local education authority is not apportioned between council and voluntary schools, but constitutes a fund, which, supplemented as far as may be necessary by rates, enables the authority to discharge its obligation in respect of all public elementary schools within its area.

    Carmarthen County Council Education Inquiry.
    MR. ALFRED DAVIES: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of
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    Education if he will explain why the Report of Mr. A. T. Laurence, K.C., on the Carmarthen County Council Education Inquiry, which has been in the hands of members of that council for some days, is not in the hands of Members of the House of Commons.
    SIR WILLIAM ANSON: Copies of the Report which are in the hands of members of the Carmarthen County Council were sent them by the Board of Education in accordance with Section 73 of the Education Act, 1870. The copies which should now be in the hands of hon. Members will be those printed by command of the House; over this matter the Board of Education have no control. The copy was presented to Parliament of the same date that it was seat to the county council. I am informed that copies will be available at the Vote Office by this evening.

    Lochcarron (Ross-shire) Water Supply
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether the Local Government Board for Scotland are aware that the water supply for the village of Lochcarron, Ross-shire, is in a defective condition; and will such steps be taken as may be necessary to remedy the defect.
    The SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAY,): The Local Government Board have observed the reference in the recent annual report of the county sanitary inspector to the effect that the water supply for the village of Lochcarron. Ross-shire, is in a defective condition, and the matter will be dealt with in accordance with the Board's usual practice as soon as they have received the county medical officer's report.

    Crossbost (Island of Lewis) Burial Ground.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that, although the burying ground of Crossbost, Island of Lewis, is certified as overcrowded the estate management have hitherto declined to arrange terms on which the Lochs Parish Council can acquire new ground; and will he cause some inquiry to be made into the matter with a view I to the difficulty being overcome.
    MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: I am informed that on the 5th of last month an arrangement was arrived at between the local authority and the estate in question for a new burying ground at Crossbost.

    Destitution in Barvas (Island of Lewis).
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether the Congested Districts Board have received a resolution from the Barvas Parish Council, Island of Lewis, urging that, owing to the destitution prevailing throughout the parish in consequence of the general failure of crops last harvest and almost complete failure of the line fishing this spring, public works and footpaths should be immediately started throughout the parish; if so, will he say if the matter has yet been considered by the Board; and, if so, will he state their decision.
    MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: The Congested Districts Board have received the resolution referred to and the matter has been considered by the Board. They are not prepared to start works to meet alleged exceptional distress, but they will favourably consider applications for any specific roads or paths which are shown to be of permanent value in the district and will make grants on (he usual conditions as to local contributions and maintenance.

    Motor-Car Regulations in Scotland.
    MR. CATHCART WASON: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland if he is aware that a record-breaking motor-car tour is now being undertaken from Land's End to John o' Groats; and if the police will be instructed to see that the provisions of Clause 9 of the Motor-Car Act, 1903, are not infringed in Scotland.
    MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: I have received no official intimation of any such tour, but the newspaper reports which I have seen point to a record in the sense of the length of time without stopping the engine rather than any excessive speed. In any case the police have full instructions as to the Motor-Car Act and I have no reason, to suppose they will fail to be guided by such instructions.

    Inspection of Encumbered Estates.
    MR. O'DOWD:I beg to ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland whether he can state the nature of the procedure to be adopted in the case of encumbered estates proposed to be sold to the Estates Commissioners under the Land Act of 1903; and will he explain whether the responsibility of inspecting such estates and ascertaining their true value rests with the Estates Commissioners or the Land Judge's Court.
    THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. ATKINSON,): The procedure is prescribed by the 7th Section of the Act of 1903 and Rule 25 of the Provisional Rules issued by the Estates Commissioners in October last. It is the duty of the Commissioners to cause an inspection of the estate to be carried out, to make an offer, and to make an estimate of the price at which they propose to purchase, but it is for the Land Judge to accept the offer, subject to the provisions contained in the Act and Rules.
    MR. T. W. RUSSELL: And what will happen if the offer is not accepted?
    MR. ATKINSON: The whole procedure is provided for in the statute.

    Irish Local Government Act—New Order in Council.
    MR. SHEEHY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state when it is proposed to issue the new Order in Council, in compliance with the Local Government (Ireland) Amendment Act, 1902, and promised in the circular letter to the boards of guardians and district councils of 28th March, 1903.
    THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM,): The Order is in preparation and will be issued before the next estimates are framed by local bodies.

    Housing Question in Ireland.
    MR. NANNETTI: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland Whether he is aware That the Irish

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    Trades Congress, representative of 80,000 organised workers, called for legislation last year to deal with the housing of workers in towns and cities in Ireland; whether he has studied the petition on their behalf presented to this House; whether he is aware that a general feeling of satisfaction was created in Ireland by his promise to introduce a Bill this session to deal with the subject; and whether he will use is influence with the Government to secure the necessary time to carry out the promise so definitely made to introduce his Bill.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The reply to the first and second inquiries is in the affirmative. In respect of the others, I have nothing at present to add to my answer to the Question put to me on Monday last† by the hon. and learned Member for Waterford.
    MR. NANNETTI: When may we expect legislation on this question which has occupied the attention of His Majesty while in Ireland? Seeing that the King has made a speech expressing approval of these efforts when will effect be given to His Majesty's wishes?
    MR. SPEAKER: Order, order!

    Bloomfield Estate, Pettigo.
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Bloomfield Estate, near Pettigo, is in the Land Judge's Court; and, if so, how long has it been in that Court; is it solvent or insolvent; and whether it can be sold under the fortieth Section of the Act of 1896 or under the recent Land Purchase Act.
    MR. WYNDHAM: I have informed the hon. Member by letter that there is difficulty in identifying the particular state in question, and that if he will be good enough to tell me the Christian name of the owner I will cause further inquiry to be made.

    Achonry Estate, County Sligo.
    MR. O'DOWD: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of
    † See (4) Debates, cxxxiii., 1055.
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    Ireland whether Captain Armstrong's Achonry Estate, in the county of Sligo, has recently been sold to the Congested Districts Board; and, if so, whether the sale includes the demesne and grazing ranches on the estate at present occupied by Mr. Phibbs, J.P.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The reply to both inquiries is in the affirmative.

    The Rowe Estate.
    MR. FFRENCH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Rowe Estate has been in the Land Judge's Court over thirty years, and that the rental was settled twenty-five years ago, and that the solicitors having carriage did nothing about having a sale until the tenants applied a week ago; whether, seeing that the rental settled twenty-five years ago has had no effect, the Government will take steps to abolish this Court pursuant to the decision of this House: and when will a Bill be introduced for that purpose.
    MR. WYNDHAM: This Question was referred to the Land Judge's Court on Saturday, but so far I have not received a report on it. Perhaps the hon. Member will be good enough to repeat the Question to-morrow. The reply to the concluding portion is in the negative.
    MR. T. W. RUSSELLput a supplementary Question as to the advisability of appointing another Judge to assist the Land Judge.
    [The answer was inaudible.]

    Outdoor Relief in the Thurles Union
    MR. KENDAL O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the Chef Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the action of the Local Government Board for Ireland in refusing to sanction the allowance of outdoor relief by the Thurles Board of Guardians to the family of one Martin Delahunty, and to the fact that this family are absolutely destitute within the meaning of the Poor Law Relief (Ireland) Acts; and that by the action of the Local Government Board

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    the wife and five children of Delahunty had to obtain admission to the workhouse, where their support and maintenance entails an expenditure out of the rates of about double the outdoor relief proposed to be granted by the local board of guardians; and, if so, will he ask the Local Government Board to reconsider their decision, or in the alternative recoup the guardians the extra cost entailed upon the ratepayers by reason of their action in this matter.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The Local Government Board did not refuse to sanction outdoor relief in the case referred to. The classes of persons to whom such relief can legally be given are mentioned in the first Section of the 10 Vic cap. 31, and the Board merely reminded the guardians of the requirements of the statute.

    Hugh Crofton's Estate, County Cavan— Stamped Receipts for Rent and Costs.
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury what action, if any, does the Irish Inland Revenue Department propose to take with reference to the refusal of Robert H. Johnston, the agent of the estate of Hugh Crofton, in the county Cavan, to give to two tenants on that estate, Terence M' Govern, who paid £6 4s. ren due and costs of ejectment process, and 'Thomas M' Govern, who paid £3 15s. rent and costs of ejectment process, stamped receipts for the sums so paid when requested so to do; and whether there is any and what, explanation of the failure of the Inland Revenue Department to take necessary steps to enforce the demand of the Messrs. M'Govern to Mr. Johnston for stamped receipts on the matter being brought under the notice of that Department.
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY of the TREASURY (Mr. VICTOR CAVENDISH,): The matter is under investigation by the Solicitor of Inland Revenue in Dublin. There is at present no evidence of a refusal on Mr. Johnston's part to give stamped receipts for the payments in question, and until this can be proved there is no ground for proceedings under Section 103 of the Stamp Act, 1891.
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Will the Solicitor to the Inland Revenue communicate with these gentlemen?
    MR. VICTOR CAVENDISH: I have said that the matter is under investigation.

    Arklow Harbour.
    MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: On behalf of the hon. Member for East Wicklow, I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the engineer appointed by the Irish Board of Works to examine the condition of Arklow Harbour has made in his Report any suggestions as to the means that should be adopted for removing the existing obstacles to navigation: if so, can he state those suggestions; and whether, in view of the present uselessness of the harbour and the consequent injury to the trade and prosperity of the town, he can say how soon the Board of Works will commence the operations necessary to give vessels free access to the port.
    MR. VICTOR CAVENDISH: Suggestions have been made by the engineer of the Board of Works as to the steps which might be taken for improving the condition of the harbour, which would apparently involve considerable expense. But the Board have no authority to undertake any works in the harbour. The Board of Works has done all in its power to free the entrance to the harbour by the loan of their dredger, thus enabling the fishing fleet to get in and out.
    MR. JOHN REDMOND: I understand that the request is that the local people should be allowed to see the Report of the Board of Works engineer. Cannot it be supplied?
    MR. VICTOR CAVENDISH: I think there will be no difficulty in letting them have the Report.

    Railway Tickets from Sligo to Cullooney.
    MR. O'DOWD: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the fact that passengers travelling by the Great Southern and Western Railway from Sligo to Cullooney cannot book, to the latter station, but

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    must take tickets for Leyny, a station some miles further on, he will take steps to have this alleged grievance redressed.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR,): The line between Sligo and Cullooney is the property of the Midland Great Western Railway Company. The Great Southern and Western Railway Company have, I understand, under an agreement entered into by the Water ford. Limerick, and Western Railway Company, prior to the amalgamation of the two companies, power to use the line for the purposes of through traffic to or from their line, but cannot carry local traffic. The matter does not appear to be one in which the Board of Trade have jurisdiction.

    Baltimore Harbour.
    MR. GILHOOLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the condition of the beacon at the entrance to Baltimore Harbour; and whether he will request the Irish Lights Commissioners to remedy any defect in connection with it.
    MR. GERALD BALFOUR: My attention has not hitherto been called to the condition of the beacon in question. The Commissioners of Irish Lights inform me that it was whitewashed in 1900 and that arrangements have been made for whitewashing it again this year. If the hon. Member will place me in possession of any information he may have regarding alleged defects in the beacon I shall be happy to communicate it to the Commissioners.

    Licensing Bills.
    MR. LLOYD MORGAN: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, in view of the debates on the Licensing Bill, he will give directions that the Intoxicating Liquors (Licensing) Bill, which was introduced on the 4th of April, 1871, be reprinted and circulated amongst Members as a Parliamentary Paper.
    The PRIME MINISTER and FIRST LORD of the TREASURY (Mr. A. J. Balfour, Manchester, E.): I am not
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    aware of anything especially instructive in the Bill to which the hon. Gentleman refers to make it desirable to depart from the ordinary course and to reprint a Bill passed only thirty-five years ago.

    Statue to the late Marquess of Salisbury.
    Sir M. HICKS BEACH: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to propose a Vote for the erection of a statue of the late Marquess of Salisbury, in accordance with the action of Parliament in the case of other distinguished statesmen who have held the office of Prime Minister.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The House will readily understand that I have been unwilling to take the initiative in the matter referred to by my right hon. friend. But when a person of his standing and authority, who, I think, first served with Lord Salisbury in 1874, puts the Question to me, I can only say that in my judgment it would only be continuing the consecrated traditions of this House if this mark of respect to the memory of Lord Salisbury was paid. I believe that Lord Salisbury actually served a longer number of years as Prime Minister than any other statesman in this country since the great Reform Bill of 1832.

    Scottish Congested Districts Bill.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he proposes to take the Congested Districts (Scotland) Bill before Whitsuntide.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I cannot make any arrangements with regard to this Bill at the present moment.

    Alleged Boiling of Live Lobsters.
    MR. CATHCART WASON: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Office a Question of which I have given private notice, viz., whether the attention of the authorities of the Home Office has been called to the practice of boiling and broiling lobsters alive in restaurants in this country.
    MR. COCHRANE: The Home Secretary has made inquiries, and found that the lobsters are carefully killed before

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    being cooked. The Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals has also investigated the subject, and has satisfied itself that the matter is not one for their intervention.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Sir H. CAMPBELL BANNEKMAN: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman as to the business of the House? There is one point in which hon. Members are specially interested, and that is what Bills the right hon. Gentleman will take to-night if the debate on the Scottish Education Bill should conclude before mid-night.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: If the debate concludes before tweleve o'clock I shall endeavour to take some uncontroversial Bills. Perhaps my hon. friend the Member for the Wellington Division of Somerset will consult with the right hon. Gentleman opposite as to the Bills to be taken.
Sir HENRY FOWLER: I hope the right hon. Gentleman will exclude the India Councils Bill from the list of noncontentious Bills.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Yes.
MR. BUCHANAN: What will be done after the Budget Resolutions to-morrow?
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: While I nope the Budget Resolutions may not occupy the whole of the sitting to-morrow, I am obliged to consider the possibility of the reverse: and as the Government have not been allowed to enjoy the privileges of their predecessors in regard to the Report of the Resolutions in Ways and Means, I must ask the House to suspend the Twelve O'clock Rule. Wednesday will be devoted to the Bishoprics of Southwark and Birmingham Bill, and Thursday to Supply, but not the Irish Estimates. No great desire has been expressed for any special discussion on the Estimates on Thursday, and I will leave my hon. friend the Member for the Wellington Division of Somerset to arrange to suit the general convenience of hon. Members.
MR. GIBSON BOWLES: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the propriety of putting down the Cunard Agreement as second Order to-morrow? I cannot say it is uncontroversial, but the right hon. Gentleman has said it is desirable it should go through without delay.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I should have thought that the Cunard Agreement Committee was in no sense a Party matter or one against which a large number of Members desired to raise objection. If reasonable progress is made with the other business I shall place the Cunard Agreement as the second Order.
MR. LOUGH: Is there any precedent for suspending the Twelve O'clock Rule so early in the session?
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: There are numerous precedents for the suspension of the Twelve O'clock Rule on the Budget Resolutions as well as on other matters.

PRIVATE LEGISLATION PBOCEDURE (WALES) BILL.
Ordered, That a Message be sent to the Lords to request that their Lordships will be pleased to give leave to the Lord Balfour of Burleigh to attend to be examined as a witness before the Select Committee on the Private Legislation Procedure (Wales) Bill.—(Mr. Jeffreys.)
NEW BILL.
  MERCHANDISE MARKS BILL.
  "To amend the sixteenth Section of the Merchandise Marks Act, 1887," presented by Sir Howard Vincent; supported by Mr. Samuel Roberts; to be read a second time upon Friday, 13th May, and to be printed. [Bill 172.]

  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  [Second Reading.]Order for Second Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
  Mr. BLACKhad the following Motion on the Paper, "That

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  this House declines to entertain a measure which proposes to commit the administration of primary education to areas consisting of counties or county council districts, in disregard of existing educational areas or such reasonable rearrangement of these as the special requirements of education in each case suggest." The hon. Member said that it would be a matter of congratulation with every true friend of education that this, Bill did not like the other Education Bills introduced by the Government. Threaten in any sense to be the battle grounds of contending sects. But what the debate thus lost in excitement it would largely gain in greater educational interest and usefulness. There was no Member of the House hailing from north of the Tweed, on whichever side he might sit, who was not convinced that education was not to be treated as the possession or privilege of the few, but it was the tight of every boy or girl, however humble his or her origin, and however remote the place was in which he or she resided, to receive the education best calculated to fit him or her for the career of the greatest usefulness which his or her capacities rendered possible. This Bill was on its First Reading received with universal satisfaction, but that satisfaction must have partaken of the character of the satisfaction experienced by the boy who had expected corporal punishment and who had be let off with mere verbal condemnation. Judging from the nature of the Bills introduced by this Government relating to other parts of the United Kingdom, Scotch Members might have expected that a measure somewhat resembling the English Bill would be brought in. But in that they were pleasantly disappointed, and they found that the Government had, so far as the country north of the Tweed was concerned, agreeably changed their views upon various essential questions affecting the administration of education. There was general agreement on two essential questions. The first was that the education authority was to be ad hoc, and second that it was to be specially elected by the ratepayers for this particular purpose. But while these two very important elements of agreement were present in the Bill there were other
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  matters not quite so satisfactory, and he hoped that when the Secretary for Scotland came to reply he would show a willingness to give heed to the friendly* persuasion which no doubt would be addressed to him on the lines embodied in the Amendment which had been placed on the Paper.
  The right hon. Gentleman in introducing the Bill congratulated himself on having to deal with a people willing to be educated. That was a perfectly true observation, but it was for consideration whether that willingness was due to the character of the people or whether it was not in some measure due to the character of the institutions under which they lived. An examination of great national movements in Scotland showed that they differed from similar movements south of the Tweed in that they proceeded direct from the people. Who knew what important effect that had upon national character, national institutions, and national efficiency? His contention was that it was desirable to exercise very great care not to ruthlessly I destroy any essential element in rural Scottish life. His objection to the Bill was that it swept away the old administrative area in which Scotsmen had been accustomed to think, and asked them to transfer their thoughts, as far as education was concerned, to another area, which was not in itself the most suitable. Anyone who knew anything of Scottish rural life was aware that the county played but a small part in the lives and minds of the people. Amongst the most of them, the county town—except to those who lived in it—had no particular significance except as the place where punishment was undergone in certain conceivable events. All other matters affecting Scottish daily life were thought of in parishes. The ecclesiastical, educational, and Poor Law arrangements, etc., arose out of the parish; and before sweeping away such an essential feature of Scottish life it behoved them to consider very seriously whether the system proposed to be substituted for it was really a substantial improvement. He dared say that if one were compelled to admit that the only road to increased educational efficiency for Scotland were along the lines proposed by this Bill, one would be prepared to consider its provisions

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  very carefully, and give them, at least, a favourable hearing. But he ventured to submit that before any great change was made in the Scotch educational arrangements the onus was very heavy on the promoters of the Bill to show that the change proposed was absolutely the best in the sense in which he had defined it—viz., that it would bring all parts of education to the poorest and most remotely situated children; and in the second place that there was no other way of attaining that object more consonant with the traditions and habits of the Scottish people.
  He would recall to Members of the House who perhaps were not immediately connected with Scottish education, that the Bill proposed that for secondary and elementary education alike the area of administration should be the county council districts of each county, or the county itself where the county had not been divided into districts—thus sweeping away, as far as primary education was concerned altogether the parish and the burg has the unit on which the educational arrangements were to be conducted. He would ask, whether the area proposed was the best possible for either primary or secondary education, because if it was not the most suitable for either it was quite impossible that it could be the best for both. Income cases it might be conceded that they were perfectly suitable for primary and others for secondary education; that in other cases they were not suitable for either; but it was found that in few cases were they suitable for both. An ad hoc authority should have an ad hoc area to administer. He found support for that proposition in the Resolutions passed by the Educational Institute—a body which practically embodied the whole of the teaching profession in Scotland —that the administrative area of each board should be determined solely on educational grounds. It was along that line that the Government should act.
  He proposed to examine separately the qualifications of the area proposed in the Bill as applied to primary as contrasted with secondary education. The area for primary education should not be too large, either as regarded superficial area or population, to make it impossible
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  for members of the board to know the education of the whole district, and be in direct touch with the parents and teachers. The Bill admitted that it was impossible for school boards as constituted to be in full touch with I schools within their area, because it had been found necessary to introduce into the Bill very complicated provisions with regard to management of schools showing that it would be necessary for the board to delegate a large part of its functions. There was no provision more closely and justly criticized than that each board should be compelled to establish subordinate boards of management. It was perfectly apparent that, selected as they were, there would be room for endless friction in the working of the arrangement. The best men would not serve upon these boards of management because the would find themselves in a position of inferiority to those whose functions were to be delegated to them. He felt confident that when the Bill came to be discussed in Committee the provision dealing with the appointment of local managers would be rightly and successfully as sailed as being unworkable. They would find that in many cases the areas would be exceedingly unmanageable. In some cases they extended over areas equivalent to three, sometimes over six, ordinary counties. If the matter of superficial area was laid a side, when they looked at the facilities of communication the question was even in a worse position. Thus, in many of these counties it would take days for members of the board to make the journey to attend its meetings. Then the members elected for one part of the area would haven knowledge whatever of the needs of other parts. What did a man on the coast know of the needs of the shepherd or agriculturist inland? The thing really spoke for itself. It was impossible for all the members of the board administering areas for primary education such as these proposed in the Bill to have that direct local knowledge which was a necessity for efficiency. In order that members might comprehend what these figures which he had quoted meant, let them think for a moment of the three Lothians, and compare them with

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  the size of some of the proposed areas. What did North Berwick know about Broxburn, or Dalmeny about Whittinghame?
  Then the other element in considering the suitability of the divisions for primary education was that of population. Here one might find, perhaps, some basis of qualified agreement with the scheme of the Bill in regard to primary education. But that very element militated against its suitability when applied to secondary education. He had made an analysis of a Return recently issued of the population of the several areas proposed to be formed. Apart from the enumerated areas it was proposed to form 107 areas, of which seventy-seven had an average population of 12,000, and an average school population of 2,000. Thirty had an average population of 65,000, and an average school population of 10,000 or 11,000. Now, as applied to primary education, he was not disposed to quarrel with the idea that a school board was not overworked in supervising the education of 2,000 children, but in some cases, where the population was scattered, it was impossible for a board to supervise even that number. If they took the larger number of children in an area numbering 10,000 or 11,000 where the district was condensed, and the population was round one centre, even that was a suitable enough number, but where, as frequently happened, in the districts proposed by the Government, the population was scattered the objection as applied to superficial area was aggravated by the number of pupils which the school board would have to look after.
  Examining further the proposals of the Bill as applied to secondary ducation, the fatal defect was that the areas proposed were chosen for purposes other than educational purposes. They were chosen for the administration of roads, drainage, and kindred subjects, and were not selected for education at all. For a suitable secondary educational area it was necessary that a district should run along the great lines of communication. In some cases the districts did run parallel to the lines of communication, and they might be suitable enough for secondary education areas where the population test was satisfactorily met.
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  But where they did not run along the lines of communication, they were totally unsuitable. That suggested very strongly the need for an ad hoc area adjusted to the requirements of secondary education. When the population test as applied to secondary education was thoroughly examined, it would be found that the districts were still more unsatisfactory. Two thousand primary pupils would' furnish too small a number of secondary pupils to make a really satisfactory secondary school. As he had pointed out, in seventy-seven areas the average number of school children was only 2,000, and he believed that the number of secondary education pupils was only about 3 per cent., of the number of primary pupils. But even if the proportion were 5 per cent., that would only give a school of from sixty to a hundred children in each secondary education area, and anyone who knew anything about secondary education was aware that that was a quite inadequate number to make a satisfactory school. Such a school could not afford to pay the teachers well enough, and the net result would be that the object of the Bill as regards suitable secondary education arrangements would be defeated in such cases. Those were abstract objections to the Government scheme; but when the proposals of the Bill were applied to the existing educational arrangements confusion became worse confounded. He had heard of one village which under the scheme of the Government would be cut into two; it had a school containing 160 children and the result would be that those children would be administered in two separate educational areas, and, as far as his information went, the rates in each would be different. Whenever under the County Council Act parishes were bisected, then separate rates were required for each part of the parish.
  If all this were necessary it might be given a favourable hearing; but was it necessary? Was there no other method that could be applied with greater effect and a better prospect of efficiency than that proposed in the Bill? He ventured to assert that there was a much better method; and it was to be found in the reasonable growth of the present system of education rather than by a revolutionary cutting of it into two. Why not

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  aggregate the existing parishes and boroughs into special primary education districts for the purposes of primary education, again aggregating the primary districts into larger districts for secondary education? There would be nothing impossible in that. They would have the advantage of aggregating the rating authorities, and in that way they would obtain a district specially adapted for the purposes of primary education, and a larger district specially adapted for secondary education. The only objection he had ever heard urged against it was that there might be some difficulty in getting the parishes to join in such a scheme; but he believed that with a suitable allocation of localities for educational purposes, parishes with low rates would be willing to make some sacrifice in order to have a thoroughly satisfactory district. Moreover, the objection was only transitory, and would disappear in six months. Whatever method the Government chose to adopt in aggregating the parishes would no doubt in certain cases excite some measure of comment; but it would only be transitory, and the result would be a perfectly symmetrical and satisfactory working scheme of secondary and primary education combined with the following advantages. First of all, there would be a reasonable growth of the present system; the new system would grow up out of and be coordinated with the existing system and would not break the century-old traditions of Scotland in the matter of education. In the second place, there would be a representative or representatives from each parish and borough who would be thoroughly acquainted with local needs, who would be in close touch with parents and teachers, and who would be the natural person or persons to undertake the duties of supervising the schools in the parish or borough. In the third place there would be an ad hoc area specially adapted to the needs of primary education. In the fourth place there would be secondary education districts properly adapted for that purpose, and having large districts they would be able to get rid of county prepossessions. As matters now stood, it was made a matter of necessity that secondary schools should be confined to a particular county; but with a large area and an ad hoc author-
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  ity they would be able to disregard county boundaries altogether and have absolutely the most suitable and satisfactory area for secondary education. Further, there would be better secondary education schools, as universal experience had proved that small schools for secondary education purposes were not satisfactory. He knew of one large town in Scotland which had a secondary education school, and which was found to be so unsuitable that pupils passed it by and went to Edinburgh. That was not an uncommon experience, and was, after all, to he expected; because a good secondary school teacher was comparatively rare and required to be highly paid, and the school itself should be well diversified. If the school were small that would not be possible. In the fifth place, his proposal would get rid of the scheme of management provided by the Bill, because the representative of the parish or borough would be the natural manager of the school. Lastly, large secondary education areas could be readily affiliated with the Universities and work along with the Universities in promoting secondary, technical, and university education. On those grounds, he asked the Government to consider seriously the Motion he had put on the Paper. He had been given to understand that some hon. Members opposite were favourably disposed to its general idea, but that they found a difficulty in supporting it as it seemed to be hostile to the Government and the Bill. In those circumstances he did not propose to move it; and it would, therefore, be open to hon. Members without any hostility to the Government to express their views.
  There were one or two other matters in connection with the Bill to which he desired to direct attention. As regarded the establishment of provincial councils, he found that they were not to be directly responsible to this House or to the ratepayers. It was quite true that half the members would be nominated by the school boards, but as regarded the other half they might be anybody or everybody, and the fundamental objection to that was that although they would not be responsible to anybody but themselves they would be exercising supervision and authority over popularly-elected bodies.

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  That would be a very undesirable innovation in a country which professed to be democratic. Further, there was the necessity of having the leading educational authorities with the head office of the Department in Edinburgh, so that members of the school board and others interested in education might have ready access to the persons responsible for the central administration. He had never been able to see the objection to that, and perhaps the Secretary for Scotland would state what the fundamental objection to it was. If it were merely to afford facilities to Members of this House, surely it was of greater consequence that persons actually engaged in the work of education in Scotland should have an opportunity of being in touch with the Department. Indeed he had never been able to see why the Scottish Members should not form themselves into a Committee of Education with duly appointed officials and themselves see after this all-absorbing national question. An old historian described Scotland as a country with evil fruits, but producing good men. His right hon. friend the Member for Aberdeen would, no doubt, emphasise the goodness of the strawberries produced in his constituency, but, as a rule, the fruits were evil. One would, however, be glad to think that the other characteristic still remained. He was, however, afraid that things were not quite what they were in that respect, though Scotland did still produce men of efficiency and ability, as might be observed from the two Front Benches. In conclusion he would venture to ask the House to pause before interfering with a system which in the past had produced such excellent results in the production of men of intellect and culture eminent far beyond the limits of their own country.
  The LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. SCOTT DICKSON,)said he confessed that he had not been able to gather from the hon. Member's observations much in support of the Amendment that stood in his name on the Paper. After the cordial and generous reception given to this Bill and the criticisms made upon it in the country ho confessed that he was not prepared for an Amendment of this character, and still less was he prepared for it when he found on the Notice
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  Paper an Amendment in the name of an hon. Member who was closely associated with those most experienced in educational matters in England, who desired to move, after a Second Reading of this Bill—
  "That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Bill that they have power to extend the Bill to England and Wales, including London."
  The Amendment of the hon. Member for Banffshire was in every sense ill-advised. In the first place it did not take account of what everyone who had studied the educational needs of the country insisted upon, namely, that primary education should not be divorced from higher intermediate secondary education, but that it should be brought more and more in co-ordination with it. This Amendment was entirely out of harmony with the facts, because it was not the case tint the Bill they were now considering proceeded by constructing areas in disregard of existing areas. In the first place this Amendment would be fatal to a Bill which he ventured to think all Scotch Members and educationalists desired to see carried; in the second place it was founded upon wrong lines in this regard, that it severed primary from the other classes of education; and, in the third place, it proceeded under a total misconception of the facts.
  He had no desire to say a word against the work the School Boards had done in the past in Scotland, because they had done good work, but the necessity for a change arose not from defects in the School Boards, but from essential changes in the circumstances of the country. The condition of things under which the present system was possible no longer existed in Scotland, because the University had set up a standard which mule it impossible for many of the ordinary parish and burgh School Board schools to pass scholars to the University. He had no desire to speak ill of the parish schools of Scotland, because the greater part of his own education was derived first from the parish school and then from the burgh school. Thirty or forty years ago the Scotch University began education at a much lower age thin they did now, and students went there at ten, twelve, and thirteen years of age. He went there when he was thirteen and there were

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  those with him who were as young and even younger. That system had all passed away now, and a pupil, however able, could not pass direct from the parish school to the University, and accordingly they had to recognise that there was a need for some bridge connecting the rural parish school with the University. He recognised that in many large centres the School Board schools gave such an amount of education as readily enabled the more apt pupils to pass to the University, but they had to recognise the fact that in many districts that condition of things no longer existed, and they had to provide for the means of securing that all the stages of education and the various classes of education, primary, secondary, intermediate, higher class, higher grade, and continuation schools should be under one controlling authority, so that they could get one comprehensive system for the government of them all. The Amendment they were now considering seemed to him to enlarge the severance which existed now between primary education and the other classes of education which were now taught; and if for no other reason than that he ventured to think that the proposal which the hon. Member for Banffshire had submitted was one which nowadays would find no support amongst those who had given most study to education, and who understood the needs of education, especially in Scotch districts.
  He took exception to the Amendment on this further ground, that it was not based on fact. The hon. Member spoke more than once of the suggestion that secondary education could be dealt with on different lines and under different control and management from primary education, and he thought no regard at all need be paid to what was at present the existing educational unit, namely, the parish. That was not so, and if the hon. Member had looked into the matter, he would have seen that these county districts which his right hon. friend had suggested as the unit in the Bill were not considered necessary. There might be exceptional cases, where one parish was partly in one county and partly in another, but apart from that, every county district under the Local Government Act of 1894 was merely an aggregation of parishes. At the very
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  outset this was called a proposal which proceeded in disregard of the existing educational areas. The Bill paid further regard to the existing educational areas in this respect, for under Section 20 the management was given to those who were especially associated with the work of the parish. He agreed that this Bill, like other Bills and Acts dealing with this matter, did not proceed to specialise what was termed under-management, because it left that to the discretion of those primarily entrusted with the administration of the Act. The School Board would see that local interests and parochial desires were secured by making certain that those who were specially acquainted with the needs and the desires of the smaller administrative area, namely, the parish, and who took an interest in educational matters were made the managers of what would be the primary school for that smaller educational area and would secure what, after all, was the important factor, namely, the maintenance of local interest in educational affairs. In many other matters, in the payment of debt, in the rating authorities, and in the selection of managers, powers were granted, though, as his right hon. friend stated, that was not an essential feature of it. The proportion of the representatives of the local authorities was to be two-thirds nominated by the parish council and one-third by the larger area. Every effort would be made to secure the continuance of local interest and the progress of local education, and those powers would remain under this Bill, if it became an Act. just as as they existed under the former régime. The result therefore, he submitted, was that while on the one hand it might be true to say that for primary education the parochial limit was a very safe area to take, yet for secondary education he thought everybody would agree that a much larger area was necessary. If they considered the matter carefully, he agreed that there was room for discussion on the point, and there had been a great deal of discussion already as to whether the county or the county district should be accepted for the reasons adumbrated by his right hon. friend. He thought that it would be found that, after all, the county districts did not present conditions and

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  qualifications which made it, on the whole, preferable to any other area that could be suggested.
  The hon. Member for Banffshire, as he understood him, wanted two sets of administrative educational bodies; in the first place, he wanted an aggregation of existing parishes, that was two or three parishes for primary education and then an aggregate of these units again for secondary education. He suggested that, after all, they had enough administrative areas for local affairs generally, and it would be a distinct advantage if they could take one of the existing administrative areas and make that the area for educational purposes. The House would observe that settling the area did not mean settling the authority, because he understood that there was practical unanimity on the point that they were to have an ad hoc authority for education. For reasons into which it was unnecessary to enter at length, the county district appeared to the Government to be the best area. The county district and the ad hoc authority would provide a body with a sufficiently large area to ensure that the interests of primary, intermediate, and secondary education would be so looked after as to secure a coherent, consistent, and comprehensive system all over the country. That would be advantageous to the pupils, who would find their educational requirements provided for on a reasonable system; and it was a method which met with the universal acceptance of the teaching profession—a point which, while not the most important, was undoubtedly a very important consideration in connection with any new educational arrangements. The teachers would have open to them a freer career, with more room for promotion than at present, and they would be free from those petty disturbances and tyrannies which were said occasionally to have occurred. The School Boards themselves, having larger areas, would have more authority and importance, and would be more easily able to hold their own against another form of tyranny—in which he had not much belief,—viz., that of the Deportment. Doubtless there were points in the Bill open to discussion, and possibly
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  to amendment, but on the whole he submitted that the scheme should commend itself to all educationists and to the House generally.
  There were one or two other points to which the hon. Member for Banffshire referred, but, so far as they were of any moment at all, they were matters for Committee. The Amendment of which the hon. Member had given notice was unwise in every article, it would prove fatal to the Bill, it was not based upon a true view of the educational requirements of Scotland of of the age, and it, was really not founded upon fact, in that it proceeded upon the assumption that the Bill did not pay sufficient regard to the existing educational areas. He hoped the question would be treated not in any way as a Party question, but as one in regard to which all who desired to improve the educational conditions of Scotland could co-operate, in order that the Act best suited to the needs of the country might be produced. The Bill ought not to arouse Party recriminations, and it had been so framed as not to cause religious controversy. Therefore he hoped that, accepting the Bill in the spirit in which it had been proposed, the House would give a unanimous consent to the Second Reading, and then go on to consider in a spirit of mutual forbearance such points as required discussion in Committee so as to secure a measure which would advance the educational interests of Scotland.
  MR. THOMAS SHAWwhile congratulating the Lord Advocate on his speech, expressed his regret that the right hon. Gentleman had not said less about the Amendment and more about the Bill. After all, the hon. Member for Banffshire had not moved the Amendment; though, had he done so, it would have afforded not a little material for sound and useful discussion. In his opinion the whole scheme of the Bill might have been adjusted in the most friendly manner without the House being bound beforehand to any particular scheme of geographical districts. His first impression of the Bill had not been rendered less favourable by a perusal of the measure, but he felt that he would

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  not be discharging his duty if, on the Second Reading, he did not take the whole question into consideration, and offer one or two suggestions with regard to details which came more fully into view on seeing the Bill in print. Much satisfaction was afforded by the fact that School Boards were going to be continued; but whether or not that satisfaction would carry them too far in approving the whole Bill he could not say. They were in the position of people who e house had been in danger from an incendiary who had been at work in the immediate neighbourhood, causing great disturbance and havoc, but whose torch had practically gone out before he reached their district. But while a very revolutionary attitude was not adopted towards School Boards as such, there was a wholesale destruction of the existing School Boards, and a reconstruction and supersession of the old areas by other allotted areas. Upon that and other points discussion in Committee would doubtless be helpful.
  What was the situation in Scotland where a system of universal School Boards had been in existence for thirty-two years? What had that system accomplished, and what was the secret of its success? Many people, of whom he was one, thought that Scotland was still far from perfect, but when taking leave of the old system it was well to consider what they had derived from it. The secret of its succes was twofold. In the first place there was a close and intimate reliance on the people themselves. The splendid manner in which that trust had been vindicated afforded one of the finest possible defences of the practical application of the theoretical principle of trusting the people and of representative government. In the second place, there had been liberty to give far more than primary education, and the School Boards had been allowed to tax the people for much that in those days might have been held to be the height of revolutionary fervour in the direction of secondary education. Technical education also had been managed by the School Boards. The words of Lord Young, the author of the Act of 1872, in this connection, were worthy of note.
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  Speaking at a meeting at Aberdeen in 1877 Lord Young said—
  "The policy of the Act is that the public schools of each school district should be maintained and managed by the people of the district who are immediately interested in their welfare. I will never, I believe, admit that the people of a Scotch parish or burgh, are incompetent to choose a board of managers, who may be safely and advantageously entrusted with the management of their own schools, or that the managers of their choice require to be put under the supervision and control of any central authority."
  —which meant a liberty to the School Board to deal not only with the measure and standard of education but with the thorny subject of religion also. The Lord Advocate had said—
  "Now the key-note of this national education is liberty—liberty to the people of each school district to determine, not once for all but from time to time according to the changing circumstances and ripening experience and presumably advancing intelligence, what subjects shall be taught in the schools thereof. This liberty, which extends to religious as well as secular instruction, is necessarily, with a view to the practical exercise of it, delegated by those who possess it to a limited number in whom they have confidence. But the responsibility of the delegates is direct and immediate, and I think that I do not overestimate the intelligence of the people in any district of Scotland, be it Highland or Lowland, rural or burghal, when I say that, however illiterate many of them may be individually, they will find out somehow, and know for Certain, whether the schools which they pay for and to which they send their children are good or bad; whether or not they are reasonably well conducted, and fairly servo their purpose."
  That was a most admirable statement, and a complete doctrine of the liberty of the teacher. Since 1872 under the system of a universal School Board the teachers of Scotland had complete liberty to deal with religion or not as they liked. In 1872 the population of Scotland was 3,395,000. In 1903 it had increased 34 per cent. The teachers, who were as a body not favourable to Lord Young's scheme of 1872, had increased 301 per cent.; and the school attendance had increased by 213 per cent.
  There could be no feeling but that of gratitude to the Government for having introduced this measure. There was an old Scottish proverb that a Scotchman liked to see both sides of a shilling, and the truth of that proverb had been proved years ago. But what had Scotland done in this matter? Last year she had paid for her schools 11½d. in the £ on the

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  entire rentals of Scotland, and, however parsimonous they might be in some aspects of life, no one could say with regard to education that Scotland was a country of parsimony. Although he did not entirely agree with the Bill there was a good deal in it that attracted him and he would not quarrel with it. But he would have given power to the School Boards to combine with the parish councils of Scotland, which had taken the place of the old parochial bodies and have drawn no hard and fast line. The authority of this Bill was to proceed from the greater to the less—from the district councils who were to be responsible to the local managers—and if the same result could be obtained by proceeding from the greater to the less as from the less to the greater he would throw no obstacle in the way. But there wore one or two great dangers in the Bill. First of all he feared that the districts were too large. He reminded the right hon. Gentleman that some to was had not been taken into consideration, and that some of the urban counties aggregated a million votes. The next thing he had to say with regard to the districts was that they were originally formed not for education. He did not see any relation between the two subjects at all. If children travelled by road it would be different, but in nearly all the districts there was railway communication, and it was for that reason, he thought, that in many cases trouble would arise. He would give an instance from his own constituency. He had received an admirably and moderately worded letter from the School Board of Galashiels. The situation was this. Galashiels was at the junction of several counties; in fact, if he remembered aright, the division of the counties ran actually through the burghal area. The letter contained the following—
  "Galashiels, situated on the main line of railway and an important seat of the tweed trade, is naturally and geographically an educational centre. The School Board here have done more than any other in the Border to promote higher and technical education. They have the best secondary school, the most flourishing continuation classes, their technical school is a long way ahead of any other in the Border. In his report to the Education Department, professor Beaumont made
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  the following observations upon our school and the Glasgow Weaving College: 'These two institutes are serving the educational interests of the tweed, fancy cotton, and other branches of the weaving industries of the South of Scotland. There are other local classes held at Hawick and Selkirk, but Glasgow and Galashiels are the most important schools, being equipped with looms and other apparatus for experimental as well as theoretical treatment of the subjects of textile designs and manufacture.'"
  Pupils came to the weaving school at Galashiels from Stow in Midlothian, and Melrose and St. Boswells in Roxburghshire. There were also pupils belonging to Galashiels, which itself was in two counties. He was not stating this instance in any sense in an unfriendly way to the Bill, but in order to show that these districts would require a good deal of adjustment. It was out of the question to say a road district would fit a case like that. They should rather start with a centre, and aggregate to it all the districts which supplied pupils to it, and make that a working ad hoc district according to the theory of his hon. friend who opened the discussion. He mentioned these facts to the House to show that the Bill would require a good deal of knocking about and adjustment in order to make it fit the exact educational situation in many parts of Scotland. What was wanted in Scotland, and what he thought hon. Members on both sides of the House were desirous of having was—to put it in a word—that the highest secondary and technical education should be brought within the reach of everyone who was capable to receive it. The suggestion had been made that burghs with 10,000 inhabitants should be left with their own School Boards, as well as selected districts, with the power of aggregation of the neighbourhood to them, making the larger towns the centres. That might be one way of doing it. Another way of doing it in loyalty to this Bill was so to carve this measure as to enable a boundary commission, or otherwise, to suit the educational wants of the districts and have the whole country covered in that way. His anxiety was that nobody should be missed out, and to give throughout Scotland an opportunity to every capable son and daughter of his country of getting the best he or she could out of the educational appliances of the State.

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  He was gratified that the ad hoc principle had been preserved, but he might point out that, while the Bill conceded the necessity for local management, they parted with that principle in the remoter districts in regard to the appointment of local managers. There were to be two-thirds from the parish councils. That was a thing that might require some explanation. When they got back to the old School Board area they had departed from the ad hoc principle, and disfranchised from the management of education capable men in the district. He desired that the defect should be remedied at least in one way, and that was that they must make provision for the expenses of the members of the School Boards in the remote localities. If they had that, they would get the clever poor man to sit on these Boards. In some places in the North of Scotland it was impossible to get the country properly educated unless they had the clever man in humble circumstances who knew the wants of the district. Unless they provided facilities for that man sitting on the district board, they might as well write out representative control in a large proportion of the provinces.
  He must now be quite frank to the House on the religious question. He profoundly regretted that the educational work of Scotland was apparently going to be disturbed by some portions of this Bill. They had had absolute peace in Scotland. What, they had done was this. They had on the School Board Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Roman Catholics. Quakers, and Jews, if there were any in the North, all doing their best, for the schools under representative control. The voluntary schools, as he would show, had done very well alongside of that general system. Under the general system between seven-eights and eight-ninths of the school population of Scotland had been educated, and he thought, upon the whole, educated very well. There were some parts of Scotland where there was a large proportion of Roman Catholic population alongside the Protestant population. What they did, in the Island of Barra for instance, was this, roughly speaking. The one half were Catholic, and the other half Protestant. They erected a Board school. There were so many Catholics and so many
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  Protestants on the School Board; they met together in friendly conclave, and administered the rates of the entire district. The headmaster was a Catholic, and the assistant master a Protestant. In the morning, at different ends of the school, the Catholic and Protestant teachers, respectively, give religious instruction for twenty minutes or half an hour, and after that they did the work of secular education. That had been going on for a decade, and nobody was the worse. Education had been thriving all the time. That was an example of what happened under representative control. If they chose to trust the people in this matter of religious instruction there would be no trouble at all. Apart from Acts of Parliament altogether, his own view would have been to leave religious instruction to the parents and churches. It was not good for religion, and it was very productive of soreness in all civil relations that the State should have been brought in. His view in the abstract would have been to leave the matter alone. But it had not been left alone.
  The voluntary schools had thriven very well in Scotland. In 1872 there were forty-six Episcopal, and twenty-two Roman Catholic schools. Under the system of grants—he did not say they were too lavish at all—which had left them separated from the national system though they were doing national work, the numbers now were sixty-six Episcopal, and 192 Roman Catholic schools. In the case of these schools the amount paid in grants was £43,000 a year, so that on the whole the voluntary system had not been starved out during that period. He, therefore, would have preferred to leave the whole system alone. He quite recognised that if the Bill was to deal with that question it, might have dealt with it by paying some specific tribute to the principle of popular representative control. Not only had the schools a grant, but the voluntary schools had a preferential grant in Scotland of 3s. per head. What this Bill proposed to do was to give power—he hoped this provision would not be passed—to rope in all the rates of the districts and to grant—
  "Pecuniary aid upon such conditions as they may from time to time prescribe to

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  schools and institutions not under their charge, where such schools or institutions are recognised by the Department as supplying efficient education."
  That was the provision of Sub-section 3 of Section 31. He regretted to say that already that was causing very considerable disturbance in Scotland. He hoped that Parliament would lay down that if these voluntary schools were, as he said, to be roped in under the ordinary system they would be under the ordinary system of national control. If that were done, they could pass the clause in five minutes. But if they left that out what would happen? In every parish or burgh in Scotland where there was a voluntary school there would at once be an agitation to put it on the rates and there would be harassing grumbling in all these places between Catholics, Episcopalians and Protestants. What he insisted upon was that if any voluntary school was going under the State system it should be under representative control. But the position which the Roman Catholics and Episcopalians would probably maintain was that they were entitled to be put on the rates without any control whatever, and the moment a dispute occurred they would have the old trouble renewed in parish and town wherever there were voluntary schools. This religious difficulty should have been left alone, or submitted to popular control. His opinion was that if the voluntary schools were to be put on the rates that should only be granted on two conditions. First, that the existing preferential capitation grant of 3s. should be abolished; and, second, that private management and control should be largely removed, because if they were to go on the national system they ought to go on the national conditions. He believed he was speaking for three-fourths of the people of Scotland when he said that there was no wish to introduce religious feeling as was now proposed to be done. He was sorry that the idea had ever been mentioned that in our civil relations or in the performance of our civil duties we should be ruled or governed in any respect by questions of religion or creed. But it would be introduced now unless Parliament took up a clear, emphatic, and perfectly logical
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  attitude in regard to it. No man had a higher regard than he had for the Scotch Education Department; but really this Bill carried things too far. If we were to have bureaucratism at all in this matter of education, he would like a better form of it. The bureaucracy of Dover House had been a stifling influence on local initiative.
  There were some extraordinary provisions in the Bill in regard to which he would trouble the House with a few remarks. Section 39 dealt with the administration of a large sum of money—many hundreds of thousands of pounds in amount—and with the distribution of that amount amongst various schools. It was known as "The Education (Scotland) Fund." And Section 40 said—
  "The power of determining what schools or institutions, not being such day schools as are on the list of schools conditionally entitled to share in the annual Parliamentary grant for education as aforesaid, shall be admitted to, or excluded from, the benefits of the immediately preceding section of this Act. shall rest with the Department."
  That was to say, that there was to be a whole set of bodies engaged in raising funds for the maintenance of the schools, and district boards to supervise the educational apparatus and machinery; but that above all these there was to be this Education Department, sitting in London, which would settle for itself and for Scotland, and irrespective of all local opinion, what wore to be the schools and institutions that were to get the benefits of this annual Parliamentary grant.
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAY,)said that the power of determining what schools or institutions, other than day schools, as were on the list of schools conditionally entitled to share in the annual Parliamentary grant, should rest with the Department.
  MR. THOMAS SHAW: But who was to be judge of that? It was the Department alone. Was the Department not to take any local advice; not to consult the local district boards, or the local managers? Was all this to be done with Scotch money, administered in London by a Department which did

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  not know the local conditions of either the schools or of the local bodies? The danger was that this central Department, sitting in London, would get into some sort of antagonism with local educational opinion. Then, what was to be the condition of the groups of education districts under the very wonderful provincial councils for education which were to be set up under the 43rd Section? They were to have no legislative power, no money. They were to be a source of expense by having clerks and officers; and they were to be representative in respect of one-half of their members, and not representative in respect of the other half. A fourth of each provincial council was to consist of persons elected by the Senatus Academacus of one or more of the four Scottish Universities; but what return were the Universities going to give for this representation? Another fourth was to be gathered from representatives of superior educational institutions other than Universities throughout Scotland. And the provincial councils were to assist the Department in regard to the adequacy or inadequacy of the provision made for the higher education of the population within any education district. But if the Department and the provincial councils agreed on any subject contrary to the opinion of the locality, farewell to the control of the local authorities. And what would happen if the provincial councils did not agree with each other, or with the Department? The whole thing seemed to him a constriction of the ventilation of ideas. If he thought these provincial councils were to have effective power, he would denounce them as most harmful. It was only because he did not think they would have any power either for harm or good that he did not take a strong line against their constitution. Whether there were four councils or one was all the same to him; all he wanted was representative control from top to bottom.
  He regretted that there was any reference in the Bill to the subject of fees. He saw that the School Board might charge a higher scale of fees for pupils resident outside the district of the School Board than for pupils resident within it. He hoped to see the day when any such reference to fees would be regarded as out-of-date.
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  He did not see why any fees should be charged for technical or secondary education in Scotland. There were no fees charged for primary education; and now provision had been made whereby fees were substantially abolished in the Universities. Why should there be, in regard to technical and secondary education, a species of middle punishment? If fees were to be charged by School Boards for primary education, he objected entirely to such a system of classifying the pupils. If pupils came into the national system they should come in as the children of the State, entitled to inheritance of the State, and no distinction or class level should be applied to them. The whole scheme of education should be made, free from top to bottom; and that was the only system by which alone we could compete in technical and secondary education with Germany and the United States. As the House was aware, there were no technical or secondary schools, from the Atlantic to the Pacific, to which American children could not go and where no fees were paid. The only question was whether the charge should be a Federal or a State charge. In Germany, if a technical or secondary school was attended, the pupils escaped two years compulsory military service; and the result was that, in the United States technical and secondary education was free, and in Germany it was almost more than free. Now, in a time when we had such severe competition in business and commerce from these quarters in all parts of the world; when it was our interest to have our workmen, foremen, and leaders of industry well trained in technical and secondary subjects, he thought it was very regrettable that they, in Scotland, could not take the plunge for free, education all round.
  He was very anxious that the House should take stock of the situation. He hoped that in the friendly discussions on this Bill, nothing he had said would be taken amiss. His desire was to broaden the Bill and make it applicable to every part of Scotland. They were living in a time of swift progress for education in Scotland. His hope was that they would be able to put Scotland in the very front rank of the nations of the

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  world in regard to technical and secondary education. There was plenty of money available in the circumstances. When they thought of the money available and spent like water for other purposes, they should be proud to give what was comparatively a drop in the bucket for the promotion of the highest and best education of their youth. No doubt there was a rivalry in regard to education among the nations; but it was the best kind of rivalry. They would gain far more national prestige by improving to the highest pitch the education of their people in technical and secondary subjects. In that way they would occupy a loftier and worthier place among the nations of the world by this comparatively limited expenditure than from military vain-glory and costly expenditure on the instruments for the destruction of human life.
  MR. PARKER SMITHsaid that every one who had listened to the speech of his hon. and learned friend must have realised that it was inspired by a thorough desire to make the best of the Bill before the House. He did not agree with his hon. and learned friend on all his points; but these could be discussed in Committee. He did not agree in the gloomy prognostications of the hon. and learned Gentleman in regard to the clause enabling the School Boards to make arrangements with the voluntary schools. He did not think that, under the Bill, the religious difficulty would arise. He doubted whether arrangements could be made with the managers of the Roman Catholic schools by which public control of these schools could be secured. But if they were to strengthen the local Boards in every way they must give them responsibility. The hon. and learned Gentleman was hardly consistent in his argument, because, after objecting to the School Boards having this responsibility over the voluntary schools, he also objected to give power to the Department. One or other must take the responsibility. They were happily free in this discussion from the religious difficulty altogether; and they were able to look at the matter from an educational point of view, and with the sole desire to secure for Scotland all they could in
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  the way of improvement of education. Everyone felt that this Bill was a genuine and honest endeavour to develop education. In Scotland when it was introduced it was received with a strong and unanimous chorus of congratulation; and if since then some criticism had emerged no hostile attack had been made on the measure. It would pass its Second Reading unopposed; and he hoped that in Committee they would have a discussion not marked by ordinary Party divisions but by a desire to take the best line possible from an educational point of view. He was sorry it was not proposed to send the Bill to a Committee such as the Scottish Licensing Bill went through last year. There they had a full representation of Scottish Members interested in licensing, and they were able to discuss the measure with a great deal more freedom than would have been possible on the floor of the House. He would like to see an arrangement of that kind adopted for discussing this Bill also.
  He wished to look beyond the question which had been mainly discussed during the afternoon with reference to the division of the country into areas. This was an Education Bill and they ought to consider the great problem set before them from an educational point of view. What were the questions which they ought to have satisfactorily solved if they were to give good education to the people of Scotland? In the first place, they would want to know who were to be the teachers and what were to be their training and qualifications. They should see that the teaching profession was made such that it would attract good material, and that the training given was sufficient to make the best of that material. Then they would want to know what would be done with the children during the long years that the State kept them at school. These were questions to which the greatest skill and attention the country could give should be applied. A long way after those matters came the questions of the organisation of the channels through which the funds of the State came to the schools; how the country was to provide it; and what the system of management was to be. Those were necessary, but subordinate, questions, the chief question

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  being with regard to the teachers, which was all important. In that connection he thought it was a great blot on the Bill that no attempt was made to deal with the question. It was a simple waste of money to pour it out upon schools and classes for special subjects and yet not have a man to take charge of them who not merely knew something of the subject, but who was soaked in the knowledge of it and was able to give children that interest in it, which could only be obtained by contact with a man completely cognisant of it. Much had been recently done both by the Department and by the Universities to improve the training of teachers; but a great, deal still remained to be accomplished. The training colleges were not satisfactory; nominally they were denominational, in fact they were not; and they were practically financed by the State. Of the whole amount of their income last year, namely, £60,000. only £3,000 came from sources other than the State, and the voluntary subscriptions only amounted to £150. He should like to know whether any money could be spent upon training colleges and the training of teachers under the provisions of the Bill. It was not explicitly stated, but it seemed to him it ought to be in the very forefront of the measure, as being the principal object on which funds devoted to education should be expended. There were matters which ought to be under local control; but the training of teachers was one which he did not think that even the greatest of the School Boards desired to undertake, and which certainly would be better undertaken by the country at large. He hoped it would be one of the most prominent objects for the employment of the Education Fund. That was necessary, not only with regard to teachers of general subjects, but even more particularly with regard to teachers of technical and industrial subjects. The training and adequate supply of fully competent teachers was undoubtedly one of the greatest needs of the day. There was no doubt that the position of teachers would be very greatly improved under the system of larger areas proposed by the Bill. Their work would be known and they would have a better chance of promotion. He felt, however, that it
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  was much more important to spend money in seeing that the teaching profession was developed to its utmost extent than in putting a smattering of ill-digested knowledge into the heads of children who soon forgot it.
  Then there was the question as to what the children were to be taught. They were now kept at school up to the age of fourteen; but how were they to be occupied? It was not enough to train their intellects only; they should train them morally from the religious point of view, and, as regarded that, happily there was no difficulty to speak of in Scotland. There was, however, another side which was developing itself more and more, and on which all recent inquiries had laid great stress. It was not enough to put undigested fragments of knowledge into their minds. Physical training was essential if future generations were to be strong, healthy, good, and useful citizens. The new education authorities would have to consider that question. In its most extreme form it was a demand for food. In some cases he thought that was necessary. Where, for instance, cripples were brought to school in the morning and kept at school all day, undoubtedly it would be necessary to feed them; but where there was a general demand for food, although it might eventually have to be met, they ought to try first every other method which would be a less dangerous expedient. The teacher should be scientifically trained so that they could sec whether children were fit and healthy, whether they were able to benefit by the teaching that was given them, or whether they were suffering from any physical evil which ought and could be removed. For in-instance, a teacher should know if a child was suffering from deafness which might be cured or whether a child was shortsighted, in which case there ought to be provision for giving such a child glasses. Again, the condition of the children's teeth ought to be watched. The teacher ought to know whether they were able to chew their food properly, or whether they were laying up weaknesses and illnesses for themselves by having a useless set of teeth. Investigations recently made on the subject showed that a great percentage of children were suffering from

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  bad teeth, and that their digestion and whole physical and mental powers suffered in consequence. A short time ago he wrote a letter on the subject to the papers and received a large number of replies giving the opinion of teachers. Only that morning he received a letter from a lady teacher in Scotland, who obviously went through a course of dentistry, stating that she extracted in one afternoon twenty-three teeth from pupils in her school and that they all appeared to be the better for it. There was no risk of pauperising people by extracting their teeth gratuitously. Hitherto there had been boundless and ungrudging expenditure on education in Scotland, but there were now signs of inquiry as to whether value was being obtained for all the money that was paid away in this way. That would come to a head unless more attention was given to the selection of subjects taught to the children. For nine-tenths of the children literary subjects were not the most suitable. They had to look for subjects both suitable for the development of character and such as would give opportunity for training the intelligence of the children and also which would be useful to them in after life. One of the subjects which beat fulfilled these conditions was cooking. That should be taught to every girl, if not to every boy, in their last school years. It was being taught with the best results in many rises. If a proper knowledge of and interest in cooking could be implanted in the minds of the girls and women of Scotland, the results to the country would be overwhelming. In economy, In health, in temperance, the social reform would be incalculable. They had heard much about free food lately, but what was the use of free food if it were cooked so badly that it had to be thrown away, or if the people had no teeth fit to deal with it when it was set before them?
  With regard to organisation he desired to see the School Board strong, with local initiative and freedom. He wanted to see the School Boards have responsibility put upon them and form their own opinions. Two points which had met with universal approval were the in-
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  creasing of the area of the education district and the ad hoc bodies. Districts were much better than parishes, but he thought it would be found whim they came to discuss the Bill in detail, it would be better to have counties than districts. There ought, he thought, to be power to divide a county when it was too big, but they might start with a county and cut it up if it was too big. They might find it difficult to lay down hard and fast lines, and perhaps the best solution would be the establishment of a Commission to inquire and to make divisions accordingly. On this question of a division he desired to say a few words with regard to a particular locality—the parish of Govan. That, at the present time, had the third largest School Board in Scotland. The population of the School Board district was over 200,000, and in that district he found a strong objection to the amalgamation with Glasgow which was proposed. It seemed to him that unless a much stronger case of educational and administrative advantage could be made out, the presumption was in favour of letting things alone. He did not in the least believe that the Lord Advocate or anyone else would seek to justify the proposal for amalgamation on any slackness of the School Board of Govan, which was one of the most effective School Boards in Scotland. The two boards were working perfectly harmoniously, the one anxious to continue and the other not wishing to force their friends into amalgamation against their will. He should urge very strongly that the School Board and parish of Govan should be left standing as they were. Having regard to the feeling he had referred to he hoped the Government would consider favourably the proposal to leave Govan as another enumerated area.
  Provincial Councils were an excellent plan into bring together the representatives of the Universities and the educational bodies, but satisfaction would not be obtained by four such bodies. There should be a single body covering the whole of Scotland, and Codes and circulars of the Department should, come before that council for criticism before they were laid upon the Table of the House of Commons. Another point on which strong opposition would arise was with regard to the

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  grants that were to be taken from the local authorities and handed over to the control of the Department. On the strength of those funds, the counties had incurred liabilities, and it was impossible that they should be taken away without due warning. The grant of 1892 was not given for education. Out of £100,000 not more than £500 was spent upon education. For his own part he disapproved of their being taken away at all, and a great deal would probably be heard of the proposal before the Bill passed. The local authorities would not grudge money for higher education, but it was far better that they should be allowed to allocate the funds as they thought best, than that the money should be taken away and placed under the control of the Department. He intended cordially to support the Bill, but he hoped that in Committee the points to which he had referred would be treated as open questions so that they might be discussed fully and frankly with the single view of doing what was best for the education of Scotland.
  MR. CHARLES DOUGLASbelieved the Bill to be an honest attempt to deal with a situation which urgently called for attention. National optimism had ltd the people of Scotland to be too long satisfied with the existing condition of affairs. In the years immediately following the creation of School Boards there was a great increase of educational interest throughout the country, and the work of the School Boards was essentially the active work of developing that interest and creating the fabric of education under the guidance and with the support of the Scorch Education Department. In recent years, however, that state of matters had altered for the worse. During the last fifteen years the position of the School Boards had been much more passive; they had exercised a much smaller degree of initiative; and in all matters of importance and in many of detail they had been practically deposed by the Department governing from London. Out of this condition of affairs, two great defects had developed themselves—first, a loss of local initiative, with the consequent loss of local interest; and, secondly, a
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  lack of close co-ordination between the local systems under which primary and secondary education were administered. For his own part, he plainly declared his belief that this Bill was an honest, vigorous, and he hoped it would be a successful, attempt to deal with that state of affairs. It was generally admitted that, for the proper co-ordination of primary and secondary education, a great extension of local administrative areas was necessary. On that point he was glad the hon. Member for Banffshire had not moved his Amendment, because otherwise many Members would have been placed in the difficult position of having to choose between affirming a proposition which was theoretically indisputable and attempting to select the best from among the existing areas, every one of which was doubtless open to objection. The task of creating fresh areas solely for the local administration of education would have broken down any Education Bill, and the Government had acted wisely in selecting the local government areas. It ought not to be beyond the skill of the Secretary for Scotland and his advisers, with the assistance of the Committee, to obviate some of the difficulties which would be brought out in discussion, without in any way departing from the principle they had adopted.
  Another question for consideration was that of the voluntary schools. That was not a very large problem in Scotland, but in certain respects it was a very acute one. There were communities of poor Catholic parents, mainly Irish, who not only contributed from their slender resources to the rates for the maintenance of schools in which denominational theology was taught, but also chose to have their children educated in separate Catholic schools which they had to support out of their own pockets without assistance from the rates. That was not an altogether justifiable state of affairs, and he would be greatly surprised if it produced a state of pure and idyllic content. He entirely agreed that it would be much better that the State should have nothing whatever to do with the teaching of religion. The State had no right to impose the tests which were really necessary if religious education was to be anything more than a name.

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  That solution of the difficulty, however, was not practicable, and in Scotland they were debarred also from the "Cowper-Temple" solution of an uncontroversial form of religious belief, because the view held by his fellow-countrymen as a whole would be that no theological proposition was uncontroversial unless it was supremely unimportant. Under these circumstances, denominational teaching was necessary, and that policy should be tempered with the utmost generosity towards any large minority of parents who wished separate provision to be made for their children. It would be a deplorable result if that necessity should lead to the introduction of religious controversy into the School Board elections. Personally, he did not anticipate such a result, because he believed the people in the districts chiefly affected would be sincerely disposed to do justice all round. It was difficult to see how the matter could be dealt with otherwise than as proposed, as the Department would find it an impossible task to deal separately with all the schools and decide in each particular case whether or not the school should have assistance from the rates. It was essentially a matter of local fact and circumstance, to be dealt with as each individual case demanded, and as such it was one of the subjects most proper to be committed to a School Board to which other large and important duties were to be entrusted.
  The central difficulty of the Bill would probably be found in the method by which it proposed to deal with educational finance. With regard to Part III. of this Bill, the policy might be summed up by saying that they would have to pool everyshilling which they could get for education and hand it over to the Department. The sum they were dealing with was over £540,000, but the greater part of that money was now controlled by the local authorities. There was £440,000 of that total which was not under the control of the Department at all. Therefore, this Bill in regard to its proposal upon this point represented a very great increase in the power given to the Education Department which he thought they ought to observe. To take the control of so large a sum from the elected representatives
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  of the ratepayers who, hitherto, had been able to use the money in reduction of the rates, practically amounted to granting the power to the Education Department of imposing rates upon those localities.
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: How does my hon. friend make up his £440,000?
  MR. CHARLES DOUGLASsaid he would give the details to the right hon. Gentleman later on, but whether he was right or not in his figures he thought the Secretary for Scotland would agree that there was in the Bill a very considerable extension of the powers given to the Department for dealing with Scotch money. It was recognised elsewhere in the Bill that this great extension of the powers of the Department was to carry with it a greater security for the Department's action being in conformity with the opinion of the people in Scotland. Otherwise this Bill would constitute an almost impossible claim on behalf of the Department. They were most willing to follow the right hon. Gentleman in an educational raid upon whatever funds might be available for educational purposes, but they wanted to be sure that at the end the fruit of their victory would not be a system of indentured School Board labour. They wished to take some good security for having control in view of the very great additional power they were asked to give to the Department. In his judgment the possibility of consenting to the conditions of Part III. depended upon whether they were to be fully satisfied as to the effect of what was provided under Part IV. He welcomed the scheme provided under the latter part as an admission that more consultation was required by the Department than under present circumstances existed. The Parliamentary control was admittedly inadequate, and no one supposed that it was adequate. Once a year the subject of education was discussed in Committee of the House, and the action of the Department was generally debated only after it had been already taken. They had no real control of administration in the divisions which took place in Committee of the

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  House. For the most part the divisions were taken upon the ordinary Party lines, which had really less to do with Scotch education than with any other subject. Scottish opinion was often over-ruled; last year the right hon. Gentleman disposed of a sum of money that fell to Scottish education as an equivalent grant really against the opinion, practically, of all the non-official Scotch Members in this House. I here had only been about three occasions during the last thirty years on which the opinions of Scotch Members had effected any serious change in the policy of the Department. It might be possible to strengthen Parliamentary control under this Bill, but whether that was so or not, he did not think the control they could exercise in the House of Commons could ever be adequate for the growing needs of educational work in Scotland, and it must be supplemented by more constant and more detailed consultation. The Bill admitted this, but he was not so sure that this measure, as it stood, adequately provided what was required in that respect.
  As for the scheme of advisory councils, he did not agree with everything that had fallen from the hon. Member for the Border Burghs upon this point. He thought the idea which underlay this proposal was a sound and practicable one. The idea that they could create and should create an organised body of educational opinion for consultation about administrative action was a good one, and the function of any such body must obviously be purely an advisory function. But if it were known that in a matter of educational policy the opinion of Scotland was dead against the Education Department, he did not think so ill of that Department as to suppose that it would pursue a course to which Scottish opinion was opposed. In exercising these functions he thought those councils, if they were properly created, might usefully supplement the more authoritative but much less detailed control which this House had over Scotch education. He thought this proposal would create and focus educational opinion in Scotland by some such method of consultation. I He believed that such a scheme as might exist in the Bill when it left their hands would be likely to bring the Department
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  in much closer contact with the problems with which it had to deal. The existence of such councils offered to those who were engaged in the local work of education a position of real influence and an opportunity of getting at the discussion of large questions of policy, which he believed they would cordially welcome and which might be an additional inducement to men of ability and position to take part in the work of local educational bodies. He felt bound to ask those who opposed the scheme whether they believed that all these objects were being secured, as they ought to be secured, in Scotland now, and if not, he wished to know how those who objected to the creation of advisory councils thought they could make any progress towards attaining those most important objects. If those were sound and important objects, then they had to consider how far the provisions in this Bill really met the case.
  In the first place, as to the constitution of these councils, he did not share the objection that was felt to giving the Universities a place on the board of such bodies. He thought it was very important that they should have such a place. They were the natural heart and centre of the educational life of Scotland, and it could not be advisable when they were trying to bring all their educational organisations together to leave the Universities out in the cold. The defects in the Scotch University system had been alluded to; he had for eighteen years worked in a Scotch University, and he was sure that whatever defects there might be in the Scotch University system, they would be best removed by bringing those Universities, which were indispensable to the intellectual and educational life of the country, into more and more living contact with what was going on educationally throughout the provinces, and throughout the whole country districts of Scotland. One or two points were not quite clear in regard to the representative element on those councils; he was glad the right hon. Gentleman had made the representative element definitely predominate; blithe did not know why the county councils had been brought in. In a municipal Bill to municipalise education he could have understood

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  the county council being brought in, but under this Bill, if they were to have a representative element, it should represent those, and those only, who were actually engaged in the administrative work of education and who were conversant with it. For the moment there might be on the county councils persons who had taken an active part in educational work in the various counties, but that might not always be so; and it was pretty certain that it would not always be so; and they would not always have as members of county councils those who had taken part in School Board work. Therefore he thought the right hon. Gentleman, ought to reconsider his, proposals upon this point.
  Why should there be four provincial councils? The reason could not be that there was a desire to associate the Universities with them, because the districts of the councils did not follow the districts of the Universities. Indeed, strictly speaking, the Universities of Scotland had no provincial districts. The University of Aberdeen might to some extent have a provincial district, but in the case of Edinburgh only 55 per cent. of the Scottish entrants came from that city itself or any county that could possibly be regarded as within an Edinburgh province, while the remainder came from all over the country. A really national council was what was wanted and what would work. On the other hand, a national council, considering the work it must do if it existed, must act very largely through provincial committees. He suggested that provincial committees could be appointed with power to create from themselves a national joint committee to consider matters of common interest and importance. Unless the provincial councils got power to act together in matters affecting them all, he did not think they would have a scheme which would really work well or satisfy the demand that existed in Scotland. There was no provision in the Bill for common action. If the Secretary for Scotland still stuck to his proposal for four provincial councils, he hoped he would not persist in preventing common action. Cynical and frivolous men had said that the right
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  hon. Gentleman would keep the four provincial councils separate because he desired that their views should conflict, so that the views of the Scotch Education Department might the more easily prevail. He did not for a moment associate himself with that accusation. He was sure the right hon. Gentleman had brought in the scheme because he thought it was a good one, and that he really meant it to work. He thought, however, the right hon. Gentleman would find it easier to work with one council, or with four councils allowed to combine, than with four councils kept separate in their work. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would deal with the whole subject in the spirit of compromise which he generally displayed on such occasions and in such matters. It would be no way out of the difficulty to drop this part of the Bill, for, if he dropped it, he would greatly aggravate the difficulty that would exist for all of them in respect of the financial provisions of the Bill. He was confident that this part and the other parts also were capable of being dealt with, and would be dealt with, in Committee in such a way as to send out a really good Bill which would give the people of Scotland the opportunity of dealing with the educational needs of the country.
  Sir CHARLES RENSHAWsaid he believed if there was any necessity for a council such as was suggested by the Bill, it would be infinitely better to have one strong council representing the new School Boards—very much in the way that they had a County Councils Association representing the different counties throughout Scotland—rather than one constituted in the somewhat indefinite way suggested. The hon. Member for North West Lanark thought there was no reason why members of the county councils should not go on the new provincial councils. He was himself a member of a county council, and he had been very much associated with county councils as a member of the County Councils Association, but he could not see why any special representation should be given either to counties or burghs on the provincial councils. It seemed to him that if they were to have anything of the kind established it ought

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  to be one body, and that made as strong as possible. He had the gravest doubts as to the necessity for such a body, because he thought if it was called into existence at all it would have the effect of weakening the School Boards. If it was to be formed it should be one authority, accurately representing the views of the new School Boards, and entrusted with the duties which must be devolved on some central authority, such as the training of teachers.
  The question to which he wished specially to refer was that of the area to be selected for the purpose of the new educational authority. Diverse views had been expressed by the hon. Members who had addressed the House on this matter. Having been associated with district councils and county councils in connection with local government work he thought it would be very much better if the county were taken as the unit for the new authority, with power, possibly subject to the sanction of the Secretary for Scotland, to subdivide itself into proper educational areas. He asked the House to remember that the districts which were to be taken as units for educational work were formed for the purpose of administering the Roads and Bridges Act and matters connected with public health. It never came into the mind of anyone when these districts were carried out for the purposes of local government that they would be applied to educational purposes. He instanced his own county as showing the undesirability of adopting that method without any consideration at all, as the area for educational purposes. In the county of Renfrew there were two big burghs—Paisley and Greenock—and the county naturally divided itself into two districts, the upper and the lower. They had some experience in the working out of educational schemes, and it had been found that the existing divisions of the county were quite unsuitable for educational purposes. His view was that the best area to take was the county, and that the new educational authorities, whenever they had been elected, should make out their own schemes. If such a scheme as that were adopted he should be in favour of postponing the
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  operation of the Bill for a year, and appointing a small Commission to inquire into the best way of grouping the areas throughout the whole of Scotland for educational work. That must involve a short delay, but the county councils would be in possession of all the facts, and it would give a proper system of division for educational purposes in the future. They would also be able to make it perfectly certain that a great deal of the usefulness of their work would not be dissipated by hard and fast lines of division.
  There was one point in connection with the subject of areas that he would like the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Scotland to give the House some assurance on; and that was that full power would be given for co-operation between neighbouring districts. He looked upon these larger areas as likely to be fraught with good consequences for education in Scotland. He was a member of one of the first School Boards in Scotland, elected in 1873, and remained a member for twenty-one years. He had watched with regret the way in which the School Boards had tended to go down in public estimation of late years. The fact was, the Department had laid its chilling hand on the work of the small School Boards, and the people of Scotland had come to realise that the power was not in the hands of the School Boards, but in that of the Department and of the teachers. That was a great danger to future educational progress in Scotland, and he sincerely hoped that one result of the Bill would be to entrust the new and larger educational authorities with real responsibility for the work they had to do. He appealed to the Government not to cramp their efforts by swathing them round with Departmental bandages. Forty-six per cent, of the total expenditure incurred in Scotland for educational work was raised by rates, and he contended that there ought to be greater freedom granted to the local representatives in connection with the system of educational management.
  With regard to the financial proposals in the Bill, he thought they were without precedent. It was unfortunate that although they were to have district administration, they were to

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  have a parochial rate, and an antiquated method of levying that rate. All the elaborate system of deductions under which the amount of rates were veiled and disguised were to be continued. If the district was to be taken as a unit he should say that, so far as current expenditure was concerned, the district of the county and the burgh should be the authority through whom the rates should I be collected, and collected not subject to the deductions to which he had referred. The rates should be uniform throughout the burgh or the district, and should be levied on the gross assessment value, except in the ease of agricultural lands. It would then be made perfectly clear that those who were called upon to elect representatives on the School Board knew what the rate really was. In his own county, where they had eleven classified parishes, if the system of financing in the Bill was adopted, he would defy anyone to make clear what it was the various ratepayers would be called upon to pay. What was wanted in order to secure economy in administration was that there should be a uniform municipal, district, or county rate, so that everyone would be able to know that he was paying the same rate as his neighbour. No doubt questions would be raised in Committee as to the way in which it was proposed to charge the amount of existing debts on the parishes. He could not bring himself to sea that it would be equitable to throw the entire charge on the district or county as a unit. The difficulty arose not so much as to the disparity of the amount as to the number of years over which the debt charges were spread. In his own Division of the county he found that, in respect of repayments for debt, the charge varied from '64 of a penny to 4·94d. Over the whole county it amounted to 4d. in one district and 3d. in another. The burgh of Renfrew long ago paid off almost the whole of its debt, and at the present time the amount of charge per head of the population was only 4s. 8d., but in the case of the landward part of the parish of Renfrew, where an enormous population had grown up, the total amount of debt, all of which had recently been incurred, amounted to over £6 per head of the population. Therefore, it would be a great hardship if they were to say that
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  Renfrew burgh and Renfrew landward were to be placed in the same position. In regard to other financial questions raised in other parts of the Bill, he found himself in substantial agreement with the hon. Member for North West Lanark. The equivalent grant represented 1½d. in the £ on the total assessable value in Scotland. That grant had been spent through a long series of years by the county and municipal authorities for very useful purposes, and it had relieved the rates to that extent. If that money was to be taken away now and put into the central Education Fund, it was perfectly obvious that the whole of the amount would have to be collected by additional rates directly, and in the future. If the equivalent grant was added to the new Education Fund, was there any guarantee that, in every district in every part of Scotland, the money would be needed for immediate educational purposes? He did not think so. It would, he believed, take several years before there would be a call on that money for educational purposes. If that were so, he asked the House to pause before they agreed to the proposition that this money was to be taken away from the authorities who had hitherto spent it usefully for practical purposes, and placed in the Education Fund. There was another reason why this £100,000 should not be placed in the central fund. It would check the tendency to extravagance on the part of the new authorities, if these had to levy a rate for every new expenditure that was required. The greatest blot on the Bill was that the newly created fund was placed too much under the control of the Education Department, and that the hands of the new authorities were tied in every conceivable way. He contended that that was a wrong thing. The money should be made available to those who would carry out their extended work under the new educational system in Scotland on a fair and equitable basis, such a basis that the local authorities should feel the responsibility they incurred in administration. When they were about to make an educational revolution in Scotland they ought to be certain that the new authorities would be so strong and so representative that they need not hesitate to trust

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  them with the responsibility of administering the funds which ought to be placed at their disposal.
  He should like to ask his right hon. friend whether the sanitary provisions of the measure had been carefully considered with regard to their effect on the existing system of local government. He had some experience of local government, and one thing he hated above all others was two authorities coming in and doing the same work. That occurred in connection with the administration of the Factory Acts in Scotland. The Home Office had a certain amount of power, and the local sanitary authorities had also a certain amount of power; but he did not think it was a good thing for the factory system of Scotland that that arrangement obtained. Up to the present the whole authority with reference to the sanitation of schools rested with the borough and county authorities. This Bill proposed to put responsibility for sanitation not only on the School Boards but also on the Department. He ventured to submit that that was undesirable. If extended powers were to be given in regard to the sanitary inspection of schools, let them establish a system by which the work could be carried out by the School Boards. He would object strongly to anything in the nature of a dual authority. He thanked the House for the indulgence with which they had listened to him; and he heartily hoped that the measure would really contribute to the development and success of education in Scotland.
  MR. HALDANEsaid that the Bill, and the debate which had taken place on it, presented one feature at least of great general interest. It showed how much controversy might be inherent in a non-controversial measure. The speech of the hon. Baronet who had just spoken must make the Secretary for Scotland feel that he would do well to speak with the enemy within the gates, and also to take counsel with hon. Members on that side of the House, as they might come to his assistance when the Committee stage was reached. Everybody wanted this Bill and everybody approved of some feature in it; but nobody was satisfied with all the details.
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  The controversy was not running on Party lines; and he hoped that in Committee the right hon. Gentleman would show himself as skilful as he generally was in rallying round him support from various parts of the House that would be given to him in return for the consideration of other points in the Bill, in order that by the co-operation of the intelligence of Scotland on both sides of the House they should be able to produce a really workmanlike measure.
  What was the feature of the Bill on which general criticism had been concentrated? No severer way of putting it could have come from any hon. Member than came from the hon. Baronet as regarded that feature of the Bill which had attracted so much attention. He meant the position which the Scottish Education Department retained, in some respects in an aggravated form, under the new education scheme. Let them contrast the condition of Scotland to-day under these propositions with the position of Wales at the hands of the English Education Department as they read of it in The Times newspaper that morning. Wales was in controversy with the Education Department; yet the Education Department was not afraid, notwithstanding its controversy with Wales, to recognise the right of Wales to be consulted very largely in administrative matters. The Welsh Intermediate Education Act of 1899, laid the foundation of that principle, the principle being to treat Wales as a nationality entitled to have some control in her own educational system, to be looked at as a whole and as having a national opinion which ought to make itself manifest in the shaping of the educational system of the country. By the Act of 1902 the existing machinery was recognised, and to-day Wales was recognised by the Department as a nation with national characteristics of education. The unfortunate Scotchmen were in a very different position. They had a very able Education Department, which was too powerful in the past and too powerful to-day. Under this Bill the Education Department would retain the uncontrolled disposition of very large funds, the application of which would shape to a very large extent the educational system of Scotland. There was

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  no way of getting out of the fact that the position of the Education Department in London would be just as powerful relatively to Scotland under the new system as it was under the present system. Like his hon. and learned friend the Member for the Border Burghs he should like to see a system established in Scotland which would be so strong and so powerful that no Education Department would be able to neglect it. It was easily possible to take the School Boards and set them off one against the other. Again, the history of Scottish education since 1872 had been that the teaching profession and the Education Department were getting stronger and stronger at the expense of the representative element in education in Scotland. It might have been expected that the time had arrived for the construction of a scheme under which that would have been met to some extent. It would have been expected, for instance, that the new School Boards with large areas would have some machinery by which they could meet in council, and possess a central organisation, just as Wales had, to determine the main features of the educational policy of Scotland.
  Let them consider the application of all the funds which would be distributed by the Scottish Education Department. Surely the principle on which those funds were to be applied ought to be the very thing which ought to be pronounced upon by representatives of Scottish educational opinion. He should not have been content to take the representatives of the new School Boards; but he should desire to see the expert opinion of Scotland—and there was a great deal of the very finest expert opinion in Scotland—brought into play in this matter. He should have liked to have seen the Universities taking their part in those deliberations, which would shape the educational system of the country from top to bottom. In that way a scheme would be determined in accordance with the sentiments of Scotland in connection with education which had its own characteristics just as much as education in Wales had. Instead of that, they were left under this system a Scottish Education Department divorced from any contact
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  with Scottish educational opinion excepting so far as that opinion became known to the representative of the Department permanently settled in Edinburgh. He was very glad to learn that the right hon. Gentleman proposed that a real representative of the Department should permanently reside in Scotland, and be accessible to Scottish educationists. Nothing short of a very much more complete decentralisation of the powers of the Department was, however, adequate to the necessities of the case. He quite sympathised with the desire of the right hon. Gentleman to have his officials and officers in London during the sitting of Parliament. They did not ask that that should be altered; if that must be, let it be. But they did ask that some more real control in the shaping of the educational policy of Scotland should be given to Scottish opinion.
  There was another feature of the Bill which gave rise to a great deal of discussion, but which seemed to him to present a much more satisfactory result. He thought the Secretary for Scotland was to be congratulated on the way the religious difficulty had been met. He had more sympathy than his hon. friend the Member for the Border Burghs with the position of denominations in Scotland. For instance, he thought that the Episcopalians, who were a considerable body in the large towns, had been rather badly treated by the Scottish School Boards. In Edinburgh, for example, the Episcopalians, who were a very representative element there, desired that in one school at least they should be allowed to give their own religious teaching instead of sending their children to schools governed by the Presbyterian majority on the School Board, where they would be taught in accordance with the Cowper-Temple clause. The answer was that that was not desirable, and it was not done. The clause of the right hon. Gentleman would, however, allow the local education authorities to give some recognition to voluntary schools; and if that policy commended itself to the authorities then it would be possible for recognition to be given to the teaching of denominational religion in voluntary schools without upsetting the system which

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  prevailed in the Board schools. Having said that, he desired to express his entire concurrence with what his hon. friend the Member for the Border Burghs said with reference to secularism. He proposed to leave the denominations to look after their own business; and he believed that the time was very near when they would have a very substantial majority in the House of Commons in favour of the conclusion that it was impossible for the State to go on tinkering any longer, and making failure after failure in the attempt to solve the impossible problem as to how the secular arm was to deal with the religious difficulty. He thought that the Secretary for Scotland was to be congratulated on the Bill as it stood, not because it was not open to the criticism of his hon. and learned friend, but because that criticism was the necessary outcome of the rooted tendency of the Scottish people to recognise denominational teaching in the schools.
  As to the question of areas, the difficulty arose from the fact that the areas were not selected for educational purposes. He knew of cases where the secondary school was the secondary school of large districts on the right and left of it, which now found itself on the border, and would therefore be cut off from a large body of the children which it served. He knew no way of getting out of the difficulty which arose except by allowing powers of combination of a more explicit kind than were given in the Bill, and he hoped the Government would take the initiative in Committee in devising means of getting out of what was a very serious practical difficulty. He also hoped that the problem of the training of teachers would be put on a better basis. It was a perfect scandal that the training of teachers should be left haphazard as it was at the present time. Then, with regard to the provincial councils, he stood strongly by them. He knew the right hon. Gentleman was not likely to yield on the point of a really strong central council, and therefore he welcomed the provincial councils as a buffer against the Department. He agreed that these provincial councils were shorn of much power, but the advantage of having them, he thought, would be soon seen, and it might be that something might be done to strengthen their position in Committee. He would like to see their opinion invited
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  upon all the minutes, and he would like a clause to be put into the Bill saying that all minutes should be sent down for the consideration of the provincial councils, so that the opinion of Scotland might be known with regard to them. He would not be doing his duty as a Scottish representative if he did not state how much opinion in Scotland was resenting the growing dominance of the Education Department. The Department was a sufficiently able Department, but it ought to get more into touch with popular feeling in the future than it had done in the past. In the management clauses the right hon. Gentleman had a most difficult problem to solve. While the right hon. Gentleman had probably done wisely to I keep some local management, he must reconsider the situation carefully in the light of the expressions of opinion which were heard on this subject. Certainly the appointment of teachers should be outside the scope of the managers' functions, and he hoped the Bill would be made clear on that point. In its main features he thought the right hon. Gentleman had produced a measure which would make the organisation of the Scottish system a little more up-to-date than it was. Secondary education in Scotland was utterly unorganised, and his doubt was whether there was sufficient provision for bringing it into such a unified form as would afford an adequate system. They had, however, a beginning of a new system, and it was their business to make all they could of it, and, when they had got it, to use it to their utmost capacity.
  Sir JOHNTUKE: I would not have intervened at this stage were it not that the hon. Baronet the Member for Renfrew expressed doubts as to the propriety of providing for the medical inspection of schools and school children. I consider such a provision to be of the utmost importance, and my thanks are due to the Secretary for Scotland for introducing the provision into the Bill. I regard it very much as a suggestion to all School Boards to appoint medical officers for this purpose. Anyone who has studied the Report on Physical Training presented to the House a year

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  ago must realise the fact that a serious amount of disease exists amongst the school children in the large cities and towns. I cannot homologate all the statements made in this Report, but there exists in it sufficient evidence to warrant the introduction into this Bill of a clause permitting the expenditure of money on medical inspection. I trust if this Bill becomes law that every School Board will institute such inspection. In so doing the School Boards will only be following the example of London, Bradford, and many other cities in England. It has been suggested that the work of the school medical inspector might clash with the sanitary authorities. This has not occurred in the English cities I have alluded to, and in point of fact, the duties of the two classes of officers would be entirely different. The school inspector would deal with individuals, which is outside the province of the sanitary inspector. It is not the duty, nor is it in the power, of the latter to look into the condition of individuals, for instance—it is not the duty of the sanitary inspector to examine into the condition of the eyesight of the children. This is a matter of great importance, for not only may visual errors become aggravated by school discipline, but it is open to question whether certain parts of the course of instruction are not detrimental. I allude to the teaching of sewing at a too early age. But, Sir, the whole question of school hygiene needs to be regarded seriously, and the first steps towards efficiency in this respect is the appointment of medical inspectors. Before I sit down I desire to allude to what I consider to be a serious omission in the Bill, the absence of any provision for the alimentation of underfed children. I do not think this is the proper stage to discuss this point in all its relationships, but I purpose putting down an Amendment to Clause 31 which will raise the whole question.
  MR. BRYCEsaid that although Members were agreed in desiring to accept the Bill, the Second Reading debate afforded an opportunity of calling attention to points upon which controversy might arise in Committee. He would divide his remarks, like a Scotch sermon, under three heads—the
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  good points, the bad points, and the doubtful points of the Bill. One of the very best features of the measure was the proposed consolidation of the different funds applicable to education. The various Acts and Minutes which had been passed since 1890 had introduced such an amount of complication into Scotch educational finance as to render it beyond the comprehension of anybody in the House except perhaps of the Secretary for Scotland and one of the hon. Members for Lanark. The Bill would simplify all that, and in future it would be possible to know the amount of money that was being spent and the purposes to which it was being applied. A consolidation of authorities would also be effected, and it was much to the credit of the county and town councils that they had raised no complaint against the provisions by which they would be dispossessed of the educational functions at present exercised by them. The Association of County Councils had approved of the creation of an ad hoc body although it, deprived them of the administration of technical education. The clauses relating to endowments were valuable, and ought to lead to considerable improvement. Clause 42 also contained a valuable provision by which the Education Department would be enabled to call upon a local authority to show that it had made adequate provision for secondary and technical instruction. The further development of secondary and technical instruction was of supreme importance, and considerable improvement would probably result from its closer association with elementary education and the provision of further funds. The abolition of the cumulative vote, which was generally admitted to have worked badly, was another good point in the Bill; and a further merit was that everywhere in Scotland there would be an authority expressly created for educational purposes. The working of the English Act of 1902 had already shown how much better it would have been had a similar course been followed in England, instead of the work of education being cast upon authorities already overburdened. The unification in the administration of education in Scotland would be real, because they had

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  a body specially competent to deal with the matter, whereas in England the alleged unification was a sham, because the county and town councils were obliged to delegate their functions to committees and were unable to exercise real control. An incidental benefit was that in Scotland, by their presence on the educational authority, women would be able to continue to give valuable assistance in connection with the education of girls. Altogether the people of England might well wish they had an Act framed on the lines of the Scotch Bill instead of the measure passed in 1902. The present Bill not only followed the old lines and preserved Scotch traditions, but it was drafted in accordance with the popular opinion of the country; and, because it recognised popular control and rested upon popular sympathy, it would probably work well.
  Among the points which would certainly require consideration in Committee was the important provision contained in Clause 38 with regard to the funds applicable to Scotch education generally, over and above the Parliamentary grant. The funds there dealt with were to be placed under the absolute control of the Department. The money provided under the Acts of 1890 and 1892 had hitherto been under the control of the local authorities, and stood on a different footing from the funds under the control of the Education Department. The grant under the Act of 1890 could be applied, at the discretion of the local authority, either to technical education or to the relief of rates; and, as a rule, the authorities had applied the greater part of the money to education. Some of the local authorities, including the town council of Aberdeen, desired to retain the power of applying a portion of the money to the rates, if they thought fit so to do. Personally, he had ever favoured that view, but the fact that it was entertained in some quarters ought to be stated. But it was going a great deal further, and trifling much more emphatically with the view of local authorities in Scotland to take the control of the money under the Acts of 1890 and 1892 entirely out of the hands of the local authorities, who not unreasonably resented the proposal. Their view was that they had local knowledge and local
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  responsibility, and that they had discharged that responsibility in a manner of which the Department had had no reason to complain, and which on the whole had given satisfaction in the respective areas; they desired to know, therefore, why they should be deprived of the power they had enjoyed, and which had done much to stimulate local interest and local initiative. The county councils were willing to resign the administration of this Act. It was taken away from them and given to the district School Boards by the Bill. They thought a special authority was better, but they did say that as the money had been well administered in the locality no cause had been shown for taking it away from the locality and giving it to the Department. Personally, he agreed l with hon. Members who had spoken in thinking that the Department had too much power, and they would be giving too great a function to the Department if they entrusted it with the uncontrolled administration of the whole of this money. He did not think the laying of the Minutes on the Table of this House or the creation of provincial councils would check the autocracy of the Scotch Education Department. He acknowledged the great zeal, ability, and energy of the permanent head of the Education Department, for he did not think they had a more efficient public servant, and they were indebted to him for the patriotism, talent, and industry he had shown. They could not, however, always be sure of having an equally competent Scotchman at the head of the Department. He thought better results would be obtained by leaving a large share of this money to be locally administered. That part of this money which had hitherto been applied in aid of the relief of rates had fallen entirely upon occupiers in burghs, but if a rate had to be imposed to provide for local expenditure which hitherto the locality had provided for out of these funds, it would fall upon owners and occupiers alike. Therefore it was suggested by the burghs that, should this provision of the Bill be carried, arrangements ought to be made in the interests of the occupiers to ensure that that relief which they had hitherto had as against the owners should not be lost to them in the future. In Aberdeen it would make a

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  difference of £800, and in a city like Glasgow it would make a still greater difference. But there was another aspect of the question. Great centres of population like Glasgow, Edinburgh, and Dundee contributed very largely to the funds which the Bill proposed to assign to the Scotch Education Department to administer. The taxable revenue from these great cities formed part of the fund which the Education Department might spend, and these cities might reasonably say that as they contributed a great deal more than other districts, regard ought to be had to their population in distributing the funds. It would be in the power of the Department to apply the money more largely to other parts of Scotland, and leave the cities to shift for themselves. No doubt the Department would have a reasonable regard to the population and needs of the great cities, but the cities should feel that they had some further security which could be given by entrusting the administration of a large part of this fund to the School Boards in those cities.
  There were two or three points in which the Bill wanted amendment. There was the power given to the district School Boards to apply money in aid of voluntary schools. However much one wished that no question of religious controversy should arise, they could not shut their eyes to facts, and already this question had been raised in Scotland, and would no doubt be raised in Committee on this Bill. His hon. friend had already pointed out that if they gave this power to the district School Boards they were almost certain to bring not only into the debates of the School Boards but also into the electoral contests for members of those boards an element of dissension which had not yet existed, and he thought that would be a very unfortunate thing. They had had practically up to the present no sectarian differences in Scotland, and he was afraid that this provision would necesarily involve the taking of sides upon religious questions on Scotch School Boards where there were present the representatives of a considerable population interested in voluntary schools. Would it not be much better that the support of voluntary schools should come more out of other sources rather than
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  from one which was likely to lead to the introduction of religious differences? There was another point in the Bill which might give rise to some trouble. Section 39 laid down the purposes to which the Scotch Education Department might apply the very large sums it had to administer, and that section contained words which would enable it to make grants to sectarian institutions giving secondary education. The Liberal Party had always protested against giving any public money to any sectarian schools for secondary education; and they could not acquiesce in the provision enabling the Department to make grants to sectarian secondary schools. They had always protested against the grant to King's College, London, because it was to a small extent of a sectarian character, but that difficulty was removed by King's College getting rid of its sectarian character. They had always protested against any grants being made to sectarian institutions, and that was one of the points which ought to be expunged from this Bill. The section fixing the election to the district School Board at the same time as the county council or the burgh council election, however it might operate in the counties, would not work well in the burghs. The Scottish burghs had expressed a strong opinion that both elections would suffer in consequence. It was quite true that in countries where they had a multiplicity of elections it might be an advantage to have several elections at the same time in order to relieve people from being in a continual electoral turmoil. But they had not so many elections in this country as all that, for they only came round once in three years. The issues were quite different to those for which they were elected on the borough council, and the subject had nothing in common. Borough council elections were enough to engage the whole mind of the district, and so was the School Board election, and the view of the Scotch burghs was that this system would introduce great confusion and prevent the real will and mind of the people being duly expressed if the two elections were taken at the same time. They were of opinion that it would be a great deal better to have the School Board election by itself. When they got to the Committee stage he

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  should be prepared to adduce the reasons which the Scotch burghs put forward for that view, and he hoped they would have weight with the Secretary for Scotland.
  With regard to the establishment of provincial councils, after the various opinions which had been expressed upon this point by Scotch Members, he thought the Secretary for Scotland would be pretty safe in adhering to his proposal. In his opinion to have four provincial councils would give much less efficacy to the system than if they had one national council. Each of the four councils would be comparatively weak, and it was very doubtful whether the best men in a locality would be induced to become candidates for such councils, because their powers would be very small. None of them would speak with any great authority upon Scotch questions, and they would not have sufficient influence to be any kind of a check upon the Scotch Education Department. He thought it would be a much better plan to have one national council, because if they had four councils their proceedings would be of so little interest that the newspapers would hardly care to report them. Of course it was said that the Highlands wanted a body for themselves. He quite agreed that there was some thing to be slid for that suggestion, but the object could be obtained in another way. If there was a national council it could he allowed to appoint four district committees, and the needs of the Highlands could be met by a committee sitting at Inverness. It could also be provided that the council instead of always meeting at Edinburgh should meet from time to time in other centres. If the council met at Inverness sometimes it could consider the wants of the Highlands. In that way they would help to stimulate Scotch local opinion on education and to create a more lively interest in education than unfortunately at present existed in Scotland. Those who had tried to ascertain what Scotch opinion on education was must have been struck by the fact that there were very few people in Scotland who took an interest in the general education of the country. He hoped the Lord Advocate
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  would adhere to the proposal, although he thought it might be improved by setting up one council.
  In regard to the question of areas, great diversity of opinion had been expressed on the subject. The hon. Member for Banffshire argued in favour of keeping the parish, and the hon. Members for Renfrewshire and North West Lanarkshire were in favour of the county. No doubt there was a great deal to be said for both. Ho would suggest whether some scheme might not be found to meet the objection raised against the district as being too small for secondary education. The county was too large an area for elementary education. The safer plan would be to take the parish as the primary unit for elementary education, to unite with a free hand the parishes where they were small, and so to create areas in many cases of the size of the present districts. The efficient area for secondary education so as to enable the union of parishes to form a federated body for the area, was the county or two small counties, and in that way they might organise secondary education for the larger area. By this means they would preserve the benefit of unity. That would retain the merits of the scheme while meeting the objections which had been taken to it.
  Lastly, there was the question of delegation to managers. He admitted that there was great difficulty in that question, and he would like to keep an open mind upon it. It was an important question, especially in regard to the appointment of teachers. There was a strong feeling that the appointment of teachers ought to go to the School Board. He thought the Secretary for Scotland knew that the borrowing powers ought to be somewhat enlarged. They would be able to administer finance in a better way if they had larger powers. None of these points—not even those which he thought were blemishes on the Bill as it stood—raised any Party issue. Even that question which might seem to raise a Party issue—the question of permitting the School Boards to give aid to voluntary schools—was not really a Party question in Scotland. If it became a Party question there it would only be because it was a Party question in England. He did not

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  believe that Scotch Liberals and Tories were divided on that question. Therefore he hoped they might promise the Secretary for Scotland that the Bill, when it went into Committee, would be discussed even on those doubtful points in a perfectly calm and dispassionate manner. He trusted, however, that the Secretary for Scotland would not use his English majority to carry points against what was obviously the feeling of the Scottish Members. If such a Bill as this, recognising popular control and a specially ad hoc authority, had been proposed for England, it would have been passed without much controversy. If he might sum up the different ways in which educational problems were treated in England and Scotland, he would say that in England there was passion without progress; in Scotland dumbness without discord, or rather "dryness without discord." He preferred the dryness of Scotland to the passion of England.
  MR. MAXWELLsaid little had been stated in favour of the Amendment, but it appeared to him that it raised by far the most important question in connection with the Bill, namely, what the district was to be for educational purposes. What considerations should they keep in view in deciding what the district was to be? They should consider not only the area, but population. In the Middle Ward of Lanarkshire, for example, where there was a population of 320,000, the district area might work very well. On the other hand there were districts which were sparsely populated and where the same arrangement would not be applicable. In his own constituency there was a district with a population of only a little over 6,000. In that case very little would be done for secondary education under the proposal now made. His own view was that the best area to take as a basis for this purpose was the county. Out of the thirty-three counties in Scotland there were twenty-three with a population under 100,000, and in some of these the population was so scattered that it would be impossible for the purpose of secondary education to take the county area. He instanced the conditions in respect of population in the county of Kincardine and in the
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  Stewartry of Kirkcudbright as illustrating the difficulties with which they had to deal in this matter. This question was considered the other day by the County Councils Association, and although a unanimous finding was not arrived at, the finding indicated that the district area was not regarded as satisfactory. There were twenty-one counties represented, and eleven voted in favour of a School Board for the county with power to divide, and ten for a School Board for the district with power to unite. He thought it was pretty clear that county opinion was in favour of the larger area. There was, however, a great deal to be said in favour of having large areas divided rather than smaller ones united, because when small bodies were set up it was rather difficult to bring them together. He wished to look at the question from a practical point of view. In the debate very slight reference had been made to the work done by the county committees to systematise secondary and technical education in Scotland.
  And, it being half-past Seven of the clock, the debate stood adjourned till this Evening's Sitting.

EVENING SITTING.

  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order read, for resuming adjourned debate on Question [2nd May], "That the Bill be now read a second time."
  Question again proposed.
  MR. MAXWELL,continuing his speech, said, he had been a member of two School Boards and a county committee in twenty years, and he was not inclined to run one against the other. The work of the county committees could not be disregarded, but in this Bill the county committees were almost entirely ignored. The only reference to them which he could find in the Bill was in Section 48, but so far as he could see no provision was made for continuing the bursaries which had been given by them. The work of the county committees had to a

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  certain extent extended the opportunities of secondary and technical education, and he took it that what they all desired to see brought about was that higher education, whether secondary or technical, should be within the reach of every child in the country. From that point of view there was a good deal to be said in favour of having a larger area. The best secondary education in Scotland was now being given in the higher class schools and the endowed schools, which were schools receiving certain grants from the Department under the Minute of 1899. There were at the present time in Scotland fifty-nine schools receiving grants, and it should be possible for any boy or girl who was found fit to benefit from them to find their way into those schools, and if the district area was taken it would be a much more difficult matter than at present. In his own county there were five districts and in the county town there was a very well equipped secondary school, and at the present time the county committee was as far as possible bringing the clever children of those districts into that school. But under this Bill the tendency would undoubtedly be to set up in each district a secondary school, which would be a wasteful proceeding as they would not be so effective as one really good school for the county. It might be said that the other districts would suffer, but in the other districts there were higher grade departments which would not be allowed to suffer, and in those higher grade departments, to a certain extent, a good education was given. If they adopted the smaller areas a very great difficulty would arise with regard to fitting in the curriculum of the schools with the higher schools. There was not even power given in this Bill to the different School Boards to combine for the support of one of these higher-class schools. There was a provision that they might charge higher fees for pupils coming from outside their districts, but there was no power given to put these schools into combined districts.
  The question of technical education was a question of very considerable difficulty. In Scotland there were three really good technical institutions, one in Edinburgh, one in Aberdeen, and one in Glasgow.
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  They were not, perhaps, quite up to the German standard, but they were fairly efficient institutions for technical education, and if technical education was to be advanced throughout the country it must be worked in co-operation with those central institutions. To some extent this had been done in Fife and in Aberdeen, and in Galloway agriculture was being taught in connection with the West of Scotland Technical College at the present time. That was now being worked by three county committees, but when this Bill came into operation there would be no less than eleven School Boards interested, and the result would be that the smaller outlying districts must suffer. It would be more difficult to get teachers and there would be eleven authorities trying to carry out the work which was now being carried out by three. In the interests of economy it was better that it should be carried out by three county committees as at the present time. He feared that if this Bill passed in its present form there would be retrogression instead of progress. It was not clear from the Bill how far the West of Scotland Technical College was to be assisted and run by a combination of authorities. At the present moment eight county committees contributed and had a right to nominate governors. When this Bill became law thirty School Boards would be entitled to nominate governors, but no provision had been made as to their contributing. Another argument in favour of larger areas was that in a small area there might be a conflict of opinion as to the industry to be taught, but if a county area was taken all industries would have a fair chance of being taught. The larger areas affected not only technical but to some extent elementary education. He foresaw that in small areas outlying districts would derive much benefit from this Bill. One great advantage of a larger area was the prospect of advancement for the teachers, a prospect they had not at the present time. The chances of promotion now were very small indeed, but in his opinion it would come about that those areas that were now suffering most would derive the largest benefit from this Bill.
  The training of teachers was a matter of great importance, and it was improbable

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  that the present system could be maintained. The churches had done good work in the training colleges which they founded and maintained, but almost all the funds for those colleges were now derived from the State. He should much regret to see those training colleges made over to the State and worked as a State institution. In his opinion the solution of that problem lay in the ability of each local authority to maintain a training college of its own. It was rather remarkable that there should be such a marked dependency on the Department by the school authorities in this Bill. In England the education monies were left free to the authority to use as they wished, but under this Bill the whole of this money was put into the fund of the Education Department and dealt with from time to time by that Department, without the consent of which the education authority could do nothing, not even pay for the board of a shepherd's child who came down to school from the hills. He would be the last to say a word against the Scottish Education Department, but he was of opinion that it would not in the end be to the advantage of the education of Scotland if the powers of the educational authorities were so confined. The fortieth Section of the Bill seemed to him rather like the thin end of the wedge. They might under that section find Codes introduced in connection with the secondary schools. In Scotland they had had quite enough of Codes with regard to elementary schools, and he did not want to see them introduced in the higher schools. The whole matter came back to what was to be the size of the district. If the districts were to be small it might not be right to trust them too much, but if the district were large they would call forth the best intellect and the best people who would take an interest in the schools, and they could be trusted to a very large extent. In large districts also it would be necessary to have managers, but in small districts of four or five parishes not only would managers be out of place, but, like the fifth wheel in a coach, be a source of endless friction. He quite agreed that the managers, if managers there were, should not be entrusted with the power either to employ or dismiss teachers,
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  but on the other hand he would like to see large districts delegate large powers to managers.
  He thought that provincial councils were quite unnecessary if the area was made sufficiently large. The danger was either that the powers entrusted to them would be so small that their opinion would be of little use, or the powers entrusted to them would be so large that they would interfere with the School Boards, and if the School Boards were interfered with in that way the utility of the provincial councils would be gone. With regard to the central council which had been stated to be the keystone of education in Scotland, its constitution had been sketched to the House. It was to be composed apparently of representatives of the Universities, of the teachers, and of the School Boards. He was afraid that there would be a permanent body of professors and one or two other persons in the educational centre where the council met—it might be Glasgow—and that they would not want to be dictated to, and such a condition of things would curb the usefulness of the large School Boards. And if such a body as this divided itself into committees all over the country, there would be less likelihood of the local committee taking any steps on their own initiative, as they would always be looking to these committees to advise them. He thought that no impediment should be placed between the local education authorities and this House, and in this regard he trusted the Government would not make a determined stand against some modification of the districts. He felt convinced that if the different districts were invested with considerable powers of initiative, and that if some funds were placed at their free disposal, Scotland in that way would best work out her own salvation.
  MR. CROMBIEsaid he wished to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Scotland in having introduced an Education Bill which in its essential features was non-controversial. If it were not controversial in some of its details, he would really believe that the Scotch people had lost that interest in education which had been their salvation hitherto. He should like to say a word or two on what was perhaps a more

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  controversial point than any other, and that was on the question of areas. It was an obvious criticism that some of the areas might be too large and some too small. What was the remedy? It was that if they were to have an ad hoc body, why not an ad hoc district? He quite admitted that that would be much the best solution of the question; but he very much doubted whether it was altogether practicable. It seemed to him that in this matter of choosing a district, there was the same difficulty as in choosing a house. There was a well known proverb which said that "fools built houses, and wise men lived in them." There were considerable difficulties, in his own county of Kincardineshire, in taking the county as the area, because two of the districts on Deeside were separated from the county town of Stonehaven by a mountain range; and if there was a central school at Stonehaven, pupils would have to take the train from Deeside to Aberdeen, and another train from that city to Stonehaven. Taking it all round, therefore, the county district presented a better area than the county. He hoped, however, that the Government would grant some elasticity in the system, so that it might be possible to join two small districts together, and that in other large districts they might be split up into smaller separate districts. Further, two neighbouring districts should be allowed to elect a joint committee of their different School Boards in order to arrange a scheme of secondary education common to them all. Where the districts were very big, he believed that it would be impossible to have fair representation on the School Boards, owing to the expense entailed on members; and he hoped that the Government would accept an Amendment making it possible for the travelling expenses of the members of the boards to be paid. It seemed to him that the present position of the managers was perfectly impossible, for whatever these managers were going to do, they were, at any rate, going to incur expense; and there would be considerable latitude of responsibility on the part of managers not appointed by the School Board. He thought that by far the best plan would be that where managers had to be selected, they should be selected entirely
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  by the School Board, and not by outside bodies. On the question of School Boards taking over the debts of various parishes, an exception was made of the debts on buildings. These school buildings would be taken over by the new district authority, and their rates to that extent would be saved, while the unfortunate parishes would have to pay for the school buildings and the rate as well. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary in his reply would be able to see his way to say something on that point which would ease the minds of the present School Boards. He was very glad that the Bill made such very fair provision for the teachers, and he was gratified that the School Boards would be able to add to the pensions of the teachers. When the Superannuation Bill was before the House he moved an Amendment to that effect, but it was rejected; and he was glad, therefore, that it had now been practically accepted.
  What the hon. Baronet the Member for Renfrewshire had very properly described as the most important blot on the Bill, was the complete control given to the Education Department over the School Fund. That was a retrograde step. This Fund amounted to £500,000, part of which was at present administered by the local authorities. The Bill took away the money from the local authorities and gave them no say in the expenditure. He had no sympathy with part of the money being taken for the relief of rates. He thought that the autocracy of the Scotch Education Department had been one of the blots on the education system of Scotland. He wanted to make no personal attack on the officers of the Department. All of them regretted that they were to lose the eminent services of Sir Henry Craik, who had left his mark on Scotch education; but when all that had been said, the fact remained that the influence of the Department had been the scourge of Scotch education. If the Scotch educational system had formerly been chastised with whips, it was now to be scourged with scorpions. Of course it was said that Parliament had control over Scotch education; but he would ask what was the significance of a Minute of the Department lying on the Table of this House for so many days. For all practical purposes it might as well

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  lie on the top of Ben Nevis. He remembered that ten or twelve years ago they could raise a discussion on Scotch education after twelve o'clock, but that was impossible now, and that disability would be perpetuated under the present Bill. It was said that the provincial councils were to be a check on the higher education in Scotland. That he entirely denied. They would prove only a delusion and a snare; they could never have a real control over the development of the higher teaching any more than the committee of commercial experts which the Board of Trade called in as a useful advisory body controlled the Board of Trade. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Scotland would give Parliament complete control over the Education Department, and allow the local bodies some control. He made these remarks in no spirit of hostility to the Bill. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would live up to his former reputation, and treat this Education Bill in the same manner as he did the Licensing Bill of last year. If the right hon. Gentleman trusted the Scotch Members, and allowed them to introduce necessary Amendments, he was sure that in the end the measure would redound to the advantage of the right hon. Gentleman and the Government, and confer a boon on Scotland.
  SIR MARK STEWARTthought he might congratulate his right hon. friend on the reception with which this Education Bill had been met. There had been criticism of a very important character, and some of which he hoped would be considered carefully in Committee, but it had been in no sense hostile criticism. In his opinion the Bill was a statesmanlike measure, and embodied a large amount of the opinion of Scotland. He was sure that all the Scotch Members were willing to combine and make it as perfect as possible. It must have struck Englishmen in the House how very different Scotch educational matters were treated when it was for the good of the nation than they were treated in England. He knew from long experience that when an English Education Bill was introduced, it was the signal for religious faction. They had no experience of that kind in Scotland.
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  He was one of those who took a very strong view on the necessity of making the county the unit of area, and if that were not possible, he hoped districts would be allowed to combine. There would be a good many heart-burnings and jealousies if one area was allowed to set up a good secondary school and not another. In regard to managers, he had been very much interested in the discussion as to their powers and duties. As chairman of a very large group of schools ever since 1873, he had seen how the whole matter worked out. In his opinion unlimited power should be given to the School Boards. The more they were trusted the better the results would be. If they were fettered by the Department in London, they would be deprived of half of their usefulness. There were some questions, of course, which could not be very easily unravelled by the School Boards, and in which they must be assisted by the Department. He had always found that the Education Department were glad to listen to any reasonable suggestion he had made. He supported what had been said on the other side of the House in regard to the head of the Department. That Gentleman would be missed, and many warm friends of education would be sorry that he was leaving the high position which he had so well adorned for so many years. Apart from that, however, he could not help saying that they in Scotland had been too much under the thumb of the Education Department. As he had said already, the more the School Boards were trusted, the bettor the work they would do.
  He did not know how School Boards in very considerable parts of the country could work large schools and supervise small details, such as repairs of buildings, without a strong committee of managers. This it would be impossible for a School Board meeting fifteen or twenty miles away to do. The committee should consist of local men who understood local wants. He trusted that the managers would be able to assist the School Boards and would give them all the assistance in their power. He thought that every School Board should have a clerk of works. Hon. Members who did not study the matter practically had no idea of the amount of work that was to

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  be done and of the tens of thousands of pounds that had to be spent even in comparatively small parishes. There were sanitary arrangements to be seen to, as well as the general upkeep of the school, and many other matters for which a practical clerk of works would be required. He congratulated the Government on the manner in which they proposed to deal with the question of the teachers. As his hon. friend had stated, if a schoolmaster were allowed to change from one school to another he would have a better chance of promotion. It was no great, inducement, however, to a teacher to be allowed to go only from one parish to another; he ought to be able to go over the entire country, and in that way the best men would have the best chance. He trusted that something would be done with reference to the training of teachers. Unless they had good teachers they might as well stop at once. The difficulty at present in getting good teachers was very great, and he saw no reason to hope that more teachers would be forthcoming unless they were given greater encouragement. No doubt more money would be spent, but as long as the teachers were brought up to the highest standard he was perfectly certain that neither the Scottish Education Department nor the Scottish Members would object. He was also glad to see that under the Bill a teacher who had been dismissed would have the right to appeal; that was a great safeguard to a man who was striving to do his best according to his lights.
  As regarded the provincial councils, he thought that if a national council met at Edinburgh every year to discuss educational matters it might be very useful. With reference to the denominational schools, he did not see any great harm in the School Boards, if they saw fit, giving them assistance. He was satisfied that School Boards would take a fair and reasonable view of this question; and if Parliament would only leave them alone everything would go smoothly in the future as it had gone smoothly up to the present. There were some parishes which had done excellent work in providing schools for the last thirty years. They had spent thousands
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  of pounds; but other parishes had done as little as they possibly could, and just scraped along. Were they to be put on exactly the same footing as the parishes which had possibly incurred a very large debt? That would not be fair, and he thought that parishes that had not their schools in order should be called upon to put them in order before they obtained any of the privileges under the Bill. He himself would rejoice if all the elections could be held on one day. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aberdeen stated that it really did not matter, as they had not too many elections. He, however, thought there were too many elections. In the United States, at a Presidential election, all the positions from the President downwards were set out on one voting paper, all the electors voted on the same day, and there was no confusion. Why should not some such system be adopted in Scotland? The Roman Catholics were in a different position now to what they were. They had been very strong on the School Boards because of the cumulative vote; but the cumulative vote was now to be taken away, and it was therefore only fair that they should receive the grant. In conclusion, he hoped that Amendments would be favourably considered by his right hon. friend.
  MR. JOHN DEWARsaid that it was difficult to make a speech without repeating to some extent what had been already said. He had, however, a subject which had not yet been touched upon, and to which he wished to direct the attention of the House. It was the manner in which the Bill would affect the Highlands of Scotland. Hon. Members were sometimes apt to forget that the people in the Highlands lived in practically a different world; they were a different race, spoke a different language, had a different religion, and lived under very different social conditions from those which existed in other parts of Scotland. There was also great poverty in the Highlands. The average education rate over the whole of Scotland was 11½d. in the £ but in one parish in his constituency the rate was positively 4s. and in another parish the whole of the rates amounted to 13s. 4d. in the £ There was nothing to

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  compare with that in any other part of Scotland; and those who paid those rates pot very little advantage indeed. In large town in England the rates might amount to 10s. in the £ but then tramways, electric lighting, free libraries, and other luxuries were provided; but in the Highland districts the people had no luxuries at all and very few conveniences. That had been recognised by the Government and the Department under what was known' as the Highland Minute of 1895, which provided for special treatment for Highland schools. He should like to ask if that special treatment was to be continued. As regarded rating, he wished to point out how very poor the Highland districts were, and how very little was to be expected from them. In one parish the rate able value was only 8s. per head of the population, and very little could be expected from a parish like that in the way of primary education, much less technical and secondary education. He was sure the House would understand that the Highlands deserved special treatment. As regarded the class of schools, no less than 43 per cent. of the schools in the Western Highlands had less than fifty pupils. Last year he drew attention to the matter and suggested that the grant which was then about to be distributed should be given with some regard to the difficulty of obtaining teachers with any degree of efficiency for schools in the Western Highlands. That suggestion was not given effect to; but under the new Bill the schools would receive what they deserved.
  With regard to the question of the areas, it was suggested that these were too small. One or two hon. Members suggested that the county would be the better area; but in regard to counties like Inverness and Argyll that plan would not work at all. It was very important to retain in the management of the schools the local element, especially that of the parents. The County Council of Inverness was an admirably managed body; but he doubted if ten members of it had children at a parish school. If the county were adopted as the area, there would not be that interest taken in the parish school which ought to be taken in it, and for that reason he supported the proposal in the Bill. As
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  regarded management, he thought the Government had practically retained the local element which would be more interested in the success and efficiency of the school than others. He agreed that the appointment of managers should be in the hands of the School Board, not in the hands of the parish council which did not want it; but a provision ought to be introduced that a certain proportion of the managers should be the parents of the children attending the schools. In that way local interest would be maintained and stimulated. The question of the denominational schools was a matter of pressing interest in Invernesshire. There was a large body of Roman Catholics there; but the religious difficuly did not exist in any way. In the case of Barra, which had been mentioned, a large proportion of the children were Catholics; they had a Catholic School Board and Catholic teachers, and the Catholic teachers taught Protestant children everything but religion. Where there was a Protestant School Board and a Catholic school the appointment of the teachers of the Catholic school was left in the hands of the local priest and other members of the Catholic community in conference with the School Board. It was all carried on with the greatest goodwill, and no question of ill feeling arose. He thought that the proposal of the Government with reference to the denominational schools was the fairest and best that could be adopted. The local board would say whether or not a grant was to be given. He should like to ask the Secretary for Scotland what exactly was the meaning of the section which indicated that if a denominational school were refused support by the local School Board the managers might apply to the Department. Had the Department power to contribute to such schools in such cases. If it only meant that they were to be allowed the 3s. grant he had no objection.
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid that that was already done all over the country under the Minute in connection with schools with small staffs.
  MR. JOHN DEWARsaid he thought the method adopted by the Government in connection with the denominational schools was an admirable one. He

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  regretted that the question of the training of teachers had not been more definitely mentioned in the Bill. With regard to the difficulty of getting teachers for the Highlands, a schoolmaster stated that of the seventy-seven adult teachers in a certain district in the Highlands, forty-seven were assistants, and of those only six were trained. One school with 130 children was being worked by a headmaster and two pupil teachers. In Glasgow the proportion was one certificated teacher for every fifty-one pupils; whereas in Lewis the proportion was one certificated teacher for every 102 pupils. He thought that something should be done in the Bill whereby teachers in the Western Highlands should receive some encouragement in passing on to the training colleges. There was one other matter he would like to mention. He knew that the Department had never encouraged the teaching of Gaelic as a special subject. He thought, however, that where Gaelic was the language of a district, the teacher ought to know both languages. He came across one school in the Highlands where the teacher was a Londoner, his wife being a London lady. The teacher did not know Gaelic and when asked how the children understood him he said they just picked it up as best they could. Education could not be carried on on that principle.
  With regard to provincial councils, there were two hon. Members who did not v ant any councils at all, and other hon. Members only wanted one council. He himself, however, was one of the first to approve of the proposal in the Bill, which he heartily welcomed. It had been suggested that a provincial council would not be able to stand up to the Education Department. He was not so sure of that; but he wanted a council in the capital of the Highlands which would be able to bring before the Department the needs and requirements of education in the Highlands. If there were only one council meeting in Edinburgh, the representation of the Highlands would suffer, and he well remembered being told by a county councillor from the Hebrides that, although his council met in Inverness, he had to give up his office because it took five days to attend each meeting and cost him as many pounds. How much greater would be the difficulty
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  if the meetings were held in Edinburgh? He was sure they would have better results if they held the meetings at Inverness. The present Secretary for Education in Scotland and the Under-Secretary took special interest in education in the Highlands; they had visited the various districts and made themselves personally acquainted with their requirements. He was anxious, therefore, to have some guarantee that education in the Highlands should have special attention. There was a clause in the Bill which dealt with physical training, but neither physical training nor mental training was of any use unless the children were properly fed. This, too, was a subject in which the people of the Highland districts were specially interested. Their homes were widely scattered and the children had to walk long distances to school. They had to leave home early in the day and did not return till late. Some took provisions with them, but it was clear they could not carry on their studies without suitable food. He hoped that power would be given to the School Boards to contribute to a fund to provide, where it was necessary, a suitable mid-day meal for the children. He knew that in some districts schoolmasters and mistresses organised funds for the purpose of providing these meals, but it was not possible to do that in all places, and he therefore thought it would be well to give the School Board power to make necessary contributions for the purpose. Finally, he would like to point out that the effect of taking away the grant from the Government was to alter the incidence of the rates in many boroughs by putting a new rate on the occupiers and taking a rate off the owners. That was contrary to the trend of modern legislation and he thought, therefore, it was a matter which required to be looked into.
  MR. CLAUDE HAYsaid the discussion up to that point, had been almost entirely concentrated upon the structure of the educational body, the area of its authority and the influence of the teachers, and not a word had been addressed to the object of the education—the child, which was to have instruction foisted upon it at great expense to the

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  State. No reference had been made to the Report of the Royal Commission on Physical Training, and the Bill failing to deal with the recommendations of that body, he could not join in the general chorus of praise which had been given to the Secretary for Scotland. What were the recommendations of that body? Put briefly they were that the provision of school meals should, where it was necessary, be part of the charge incident to school management. Returns which had been obtained showed that something like 9 per cent. of the school children in Aberdeen were badly nourished, and in Edinburgh the position was still worse. The Commissioners pointed out that, the housing difficulty was inseparable from the question of the condition of the children, and it was idle to spend all this public money and to squabble over school areas and the training of teachers while the bodies of the children were incapable of receiving the mental instruction which Parliament, demanded should be given to them. He, for one, held that it was a matter of considerable reproach to the authors of the Bill that they were not taking at least permissive power in the measure to give school authorities throughout Scotland the necessary authority to provide the children with food. He was not relying solely on the conclusions arrived at by a Royal Commission. He had noted with pleasure that the hon. Member for the Partick Division had admitted that the physical question was one of prime importance. One hon. Member had stated that the expenditure on education would be wasted unless the children were provided with spectacles to enable them to see the black-boards. Another had suggested that members of School Boards should be paid. Let them begin at the right end and realise that children should be physically capable of receiving the education provided, and that that was as important as that they should have glasses wherewith to read the blackboard. Let them strive to ensure that the children's eyes were not dimmed by misery and hunger.
  This was not a difficulty which existed merely in the East-end of London. Anyone who read the Report of the Royal Commission on Physical Training in Scotland would see that, whether in rural or in
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  urban districts, there were vast numbers of children unfitted to receive education by reason of parental neglect—through drink and other causes—to provide them with proper food and clothing. It was a well-known fact that agricultural labourers, who were among the poorest ratepayers, had readily contributed, with teachers, to the fund for supplying children with food, and the Government should take this opportunity of following the lead given them by their own Commission and add "meals" to those permissive matters with which the local authorities would be authorised to deal. The child who was made to submit to compulsory education should certainly be physically fit to undergo the intellectual strain it was desired to subject it to in order to enable it to become a capable citizen hereafter. They could not get away from the fact—and they might call it Socialism or what they liked—that, practically, under the present system of education they had taken the child away from its parents for educational purposes. The State had assumed the guardianship for nine years of the child's life, and it was bound to see that the money thus expended on the child was not wasted as it had been in the past. In other respects the Bill, he believed, merited warm approval, and ho trusted that when it had been amended in the direction he had suggested it would pass into law. Although ho had spoken strongly he did not wish to deny to the right hon. Gentleman all credit for the skill, energy, and sincerity which he had devoted to the production of the measure.
  MR. UREsaid it was difficult to make a Second Reading speech on a Bill with the principle of which they were all agreed, as consequently their criticisms had to be directed to details. If he could not join in the chorus of praise so cheerfully as his colleagues had done, the right hon. Gentleman would understand it was not because he grudged him and his colleagues all the honour and glory due to them as the authors of the measure, or because of the hint which had been thrown out that they found the Bill ready to their hands when they first entered upon office. His seeming stinginess of praise was clue to the fact that his constituents were fairly well satisfied with the system already existing in Scotland,

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  and none of them who had listened to the exposition by the hon. Member for the Border Burghs of the difficulties of education in Scotland, would find it hard to understand why it was that they were so much attached to their present system. The complaints which arose when the Scottish Education Department came into direct contact with a local authority and which would not be relieved or mitigated by the Bill had not been experienced to any extent in his own constituency, where the educational machine had worked smoothly and satisfactorily for many years past, and that constituency was, after all, typical of the great bulk of Scottish counties. Comment had been made on the fact that the Bill had not received much attention at the hands of the people of Scotland, and that very few meetings had been held either to protest against its provisions or to approve of them. No one need be astonished at that. It had been cynically observed that the best system of ventilation was one entirely under the control of the inhabitants of the building, and in the same way he supposed that the best system of education was one entirely under the control of the parents. Acting on that principle, he had not dreamed for one moment of summoning a public meeting to consider the proposals of the right hon. Gentleman; he had deemed it sufficient to seek the opinion of educational experts in his constituency—the opinions of those who passed their lives in educational work, on whose shoulders would rest the responsibility of working this Bill when passed, and upon whose, energy would depend the making or marring of the measure. In the few observations he had to make, therefore, he wished it to be understood that he was not merely expressing his individual opinion, but also the views of those on whom the success of the measure would ultimately depend. He represented an average Scottish constituency.
  MR. WEIR: Not a Highland one.
  MR. URE: Well, an average Lowland constituency, and he had to say at once that those whom he had consulted accepted without comment as a matter of course the ad hoc principle. No other would, in fact, be suited to the peculiari-
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  ties of the Scottish educational system, and it was deeply rooted in their national history. It had been tested and had worked remarkably well. They also appreciated the advantages of a wider area and a larger electorate, and, so far as secondary and technical education were concerned, of the concentration of power, means, and authority these larger boards were designed to secure. On the whole, they preferred the areas proposed by the Bill to the county areas. It was all very well for hon. Gentlemen to say that sanitation, roads, and bridges were one thing, but that education was something entirely different. Geographical considerations and considerations of the distribution of population and of the means of transit across the counties had determined the divisions of counties into districts for roads and bridges, and the same considerations were decisive in the matter of education. The people of Scotland were not blind to the advantages of the ad hoc area, but they were a practical people, and they saw that the ideal was not always attainable; therefore, they were prepared to lay that on one side, not because it was a bad system, but because it was unworkable under existing conditions. The proposals with regard to the powers of the new authorities were, in the main, satisfactory, but there was one that would be, keenly challenged, viz., that of the delegation of duties to boards of managers. Unless that proposal were radically altered he would feel bound to vote against the Third Heading of the Bill. No self-respecting men would be found to serve on these boards of managers, because they would have, on the one hand, no honour or glory, and, on the other hand, no useful work to perform. Boards of managers were not to be allowed to raise, vote, or spend money, or to appoint, promote, or dismiss teachers; all that was to be left to them was the punishment of recalcitrant parents and the supervision of slatternly charwomen. The provision had doubtless crept in by a mistake, it was probably due to the draftsman of the English Bill, who had forgotten the radical difference between the two measures, because, while the English Act confided the administration of education to existing local bodies, the Scotch Bill dealt with bodies elected for educational

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  purposes only. The cure was extremely simple; it was that, the School Boards having been elected, full confidence should be placed in them. It should be left to them to appoint from among themselves committees to manage the schools in the districts under their charge; their own good sense would probably lead them to appoint the members most closely connected with the districts in which the schools were situated. If the right hon. Gentleman made Clause 19 applicable to county districts as well as to the enumerated districts, and dropped Clause 20, the thing would be done.
  The manner in which the Bill dealt with voluntary and denominational schools was as sagacious as it was tactful. There was no disposition whatever on the part of School Boards to refuse grants of public money to such schools as were giving efficient instruction, but they would only do so provided there was a modicum of local control. So far as he could judge from the Roman Catholics in his own constituency, that modicum of local control would not be refused, provided it was confined to secular instruction. That point was met by the Bill, because the School Boards were to be entitled, before voting money to such schools, to impose certain conditions, so that if they thought fit they would be able to prescribe the modicum of local control that was necessary. It would probably be pressed upon the Government that this difficult, delicate, and sometimes disagreeable duty ought not to be placed upon the local body. He did not think that was a sound objection. These local bodies were to have large powers, and they ought to bear the corresponding responsibilities. They were to have almost unlimited powers of administration; therefore they ought to face the responsibilities and not shirk the accompanying disagreeable duties. He hoped the Government would stand firm to their proposals on this matter.
  With regard to the finance of the Bill, there were at present five distinct channels by which money raised from taxation found its way to the aid of education. Under the Bill the full flow of those five channels was to be devoted to education. With
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  regard to four of those channels the Government would have no difficulty whatever, but the £100,000 under the Act of 1892 was a different question. Hitherto the bulk of that money had been devoted to the relief of rates, and the burghs pointed out, with a great deal of justice, that on the faith of receiving that money they had entered upon large expenditure, so that if this money were suddenly withdrawn it would mean an increase of rates to the extent of from l½d. to 3d. in the £. That was a serious consideration, and he was prepared to back the burghs in their request that the money should be retained for the purposes to which it had hitherto been devoted. Then there was the question of rating. Not a single voice had been raised in the House or in the country in favour of the proposal to lay upon enterprising parishes the whole burden of expenditure incurred in the erection of the buildings necessary for efficient education. He thought the provision was unjust to a degree. The School Board was to take over all the assets, but not the liabilities. The enterprising parish would have to bear those liabilities unaided, while the parish which had been lax or negligent would escape. To that provision he should certainly give his uncompromising opposition. The country had received the announcement with reference to the proposed provincial councils with perfect indifference, and the reason was not far to seek. The popular view was that they would do neither good nor harm, that they were perfectly harmless and innocent. Men of distinction in the educational world would never dream of sitting upon those councils, because if their recommendations were not in harmony with the view of the Scotch Education Department the Department would give them no heed, while, if their recommendations happened to be approved by the Department, the Department, would carry them out off its own bat and would need no jogging from the councils. Consequently it was clear that these provincial councils would be futile, and would entirely fail to effect the end the Government had in view.
  (Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsupposed the Minister was truly to be congratulated who had listened through a

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  long day to speeches which their authors admitted were not Second Heading speeches, and in which he had been again and again told that there was no intention of dividing against the Bill. It was true that notice had been given of an Amendment of grave importance, but the hon. Member for Banffshire had promptly run away from his proposal and declined to move it. The hon. Member for the Border Burghs had expressed regret that the Amendment had not been moved, but he had failed to face the alternative of moving it himself. The hon. Member had also given a curious explanation of the praise which was lavished upon the Bill when first introduced. He had stated that hon. Members opposite were in a state of trembling expectancy because of the misdeeds of the Government in connection with English education, and that when it was found that the English precedent had not been followed he had burst out into Te Deum, and now he seemed to regret that his praise had been so ecstatic—
  "When the devil was sick, the devil a monk would be,"
  When the devil got well, the devil a monk was he"

  The hon. Member for the Border Burghs did not persevere in that attitude, but he received the Bill and its provisions in what he was glad to recognise as a most friendly spirit to all its provisions. If he had been in the mood of a captious critic, he did not think he should have had much trouble in defending the various provisions of his Bill, not by taking counsel from the other side, but by pointing out that, although all the provisions of the Bill had been criticised, the critics were not agreed, and he had as many defenders as he had opponents amongst lion. Members opposite. Therefore, he proposed to say a few words, arranging his remarks in the order of the topics with which they dealt rather than in trying to deal with the remarks of each speaker who had addressed the House.
  The most important topic of all was the question of the area. The hon. Member for Banffshire, who did not move his Amendment, formulated a distant proposition which had found but few supporters, but it deserved to be dealt with because it was distinct. He said that, inasmuch as the Government had
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  resolved on an an hoc authority, the proper corollary would be the selection of an ad hoc district. That proposition seemed to him to be fraught with difficulty, and, moreover, it was impracticable. No one who had anything to do with administration from a practical point of view could fail to agree that the overlapping of administrative, areas was an unmixed evil. During the past twelve or fourteen years they had been doing their best, and with success, to get rid of the overlapping areas which existed. To disregard existing territorial divisions and to take an arbitrary line, and carve out a new administrative area, would be, in his judgment, a very grave administrative defect. If they were to draw that line, as in a case, like Galashiels, they would have certain outlying portions for which, in respect to secondary education, there would be no provision made. They would, in fact, require to have a sort of boundary commission. He thought this was enough to enable them to dismiss the fantastic idea of ad hoc areas. He would now pass to the existing areas. The hon. Member who opened the debate appeared to quite forget the leading principle of this Bill, which so far as he knew bad not got a single dissentient voice raised against it in the House, and that principle was that there should be one authority for both primary and secondary education. The hon. Member for Banffshire mentioned some idea of an aggregation of parishes for primary education for one parish, and then a still further aggregation for secondary education. There at once they had two authorities instead of one. He liked but little the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aberdeen, whose contribution to this point was that there should be an aggregation of parishes for the purposes of primary education and then a secondary body, elected by the body dealing with primary education from their own number. That, of course, at once introduced the whole machinery of a secondary election and at once they had not that direct trust in the people which everyone seemed to think peculiarly appropriate to Scotch ideas and methods. Under that system a person in a rural parish forming an electoral district might be sure of sending a representative whom he trusted to the first School Board, but

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  he would have no security whatsoever that that representative would ever have anything to do with the question of secondary education, because when it came to this secondary election, formed out of the various School Boards and the different parishes, there would be no security that that particular representative would ever be so elected. He held that this left the idea of the Bill as to areas unassailed.
  He did not think he was wrong in saying that general opinion was that the county was too large for primary education, therefore, of course, the system of districts taken in the Bill was a compromise. It was, indeed, a subject on which they must have a compromise. These districts had been taken as a compromise. They were formed originally for geographical considerations and consideration of access, and there was no reason why they should not be as useful for educational administration as for road and public health administration. To fix boundaries of any kind must always give rise to some difficulties and anomalies. One gentleman wrote to him stating that his house was built over a stream and that stream constituted the boundary between two districts, and he wished to know which district he was going to be in. He was afraid that no amount of ingenuity in the Bill would ever get over such difficulties as that. There seemed to be a radical misconception prevalent of the functions of the district authorities as to secondary education. It was supposed that each district must of necessity be self-supporting; but there was no such requirement in the Bill; and in practice the; case would often be otherwise. Each authority must see that proper provision for secondary education was made; but there was nothing to prevent an authority from making arrangements for the children under its care to go to a school in the district of another authority. Therefore all those illustrations which the hon. Member for Renfrewshire had given which arose in consequence of the delimitations of the two districts were really not to the point. But although he had defended the district, he thought with some success, because the difficulty in the parish and the county was so much greater than in the district, he did not take a rigid line in this matter, and he was perfectly willing to consider with
  210
  a favourable mind the insertion of such provisions as would make combination possible where local opinion thought that combination was necessary. He thought that was obviously a very much better plan than beginning at the other end, because they were bound to take the view that the length and breadth of Scotland would act well in this matter. Taking the district in the Bill as it stood, they had been able to create areas of manageable size. That was saying a great deal as to the workableness of the proposal, and the only exception was the case mentioned by the hon. Member for Renfrewshire, which he was quite satisfied would require exceptional treatment, and that was due to the incorporation in Renfrewshire of two large boroughs.
  On the question of management, again, he thought several speakers had laboured under a misconception. The object of the management clauses was one in which he believed every one would concur. It was to retain local interest in the school. But his mind was more than open upon the point, and he was perfectly willing to give way to the general opinion of Scotland in the matter. He only wished to find out what the general opinion of Scotland was, and to that general opinion he was perfectly prepared to give way. He was perfectly willing to alter the proportion. If he gathered that it was really the feeling of the Scottish representatives that they would sooner the whole matter was left in the hands of the elected School Board, he was quite prepared to trust the School Boards to see that there was proper local management.
  With regard to the financial portion of the Bill, three topics had been dealt with which were perfectly distinct. There was one topic which, as a matter of fact, was only dealt with by the hon. Member for Renfrewshire, but it was nevertheless an exceedingly important one, and a great deal of what the hon. Member had said was perfectly true. His point was that it would be very much better not to keep the old parochial rating, as they were no longer having the parochial area, and his great point was that if they gave up parochial rating they would have to give up that inequality which resulted from the system of classification and the system of deductions. If

  211
  he had more time he might explain these points, but hon. Members might take it from him that as a matter of fact it was in the power of one parochial Board to make the valuation on which the rating was actually calculated very different to the principle on which another Board might act. He was bound to say he thought there was a good deal in that. The reason why he put the provision as it stood in the Bill was that he thought ho knew what the opinion was. He thought the line of least resistance was to keep the School Board rate as it always had been. The school rate had been collected along with the poor rate, and therefore the poor rate was allowed to remain, but his hon. friend the Member for Renfrewshire and others came to him and argued that it would be better to secure actual equity by taking the rates on the gross valuation. Here, again, he had no desire to stick to the Bill rigidly, and he was ready to substitute the county for the local rate. As to the subject of the old debt, it was obviously a case in which they wanted to do what was most truly equitable, and he would be willing to find a solution of the problem in the direction which the Committee considered most likely to lead to that equity. But do not let anybody rim away with the idea that the equities were all on the one side. It was not at all a one-sided matter, and when the proper time came he thought he would be able to show ample justification for the proposition in the Bill.
  He passed now to the very much more important question of the general finance of the Bill, and especially to what he might call "the pooling clause." He asked hon. Members to remember the state of things which he found and with which he had to deal. He thought it was the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Aberdeen who paid him the compliment that he was the only Member in the House who, without the books, could have told the sources from which the money came. Ho believed it was not an undeserved compliment. He did not suppose anyone could pass an examination on that subject except the hon. Member for Mid Lanark. He could assure the hon. Member that it was a great pleasure to him to be a yoke follow with him in any contest of that kind. The right hon. Gentleman the Member
  212
  for South Aberdeen was entirely in favour of the pooling clause. He did not think anybody was against it. But a great deal of the criticism had been as to the way the money was to be paid out. It was said, "Oh! you are putting the whole thing into the hands of the Department." The right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Aberdeen made a suggestion winch was really not practical, and it was one which ho did not believe ho would regard as practical when ho came to think over it. The right hon. Gentleman had suggested that some of the money should still be allowed to go to the local authorities to be appropriated as they thought fit to purposes other than education. It would be an expedient that for one thing would do away with the pooling, of which the right hon. Gentleman approved. The hon. Member for North West Lanark also made a serious mistake as to the amount of money which had been for the first time put under the command of the Department which was not under it before. The hon. Gentleman forgot entirely that a very large amount of this money was the aid grant which was the equivalent for the money provided under the English Bill—money in respect of which the claims, ho humbly thought, of the voluntary schools, especially the Roman Catholic schools, had not been absolutely understood. It was money which never passed under any local control at all. It was Imperial funds given to any local source of education which was doing the educational work of the country. He wished that time permitted to develop this subject further, but of course he would have an opportunity of doing it afterwards. All ho could say was that ho was prepared to maintain that, so far as the sum of £220,000 was concerned, it would be absolutely inequitable not to give it to the voluntary schools, and specially to the Roman Catholics, who from their numbers wore entitled to the largest share.
  He asked hon. Members to look at the clause for a moment and to say how they could oust the Department. There were, in the first place, to be inspections and leaving certificates. Who could do that work except a central department? Obviously no one. Secondly, there was the establishment of a central fund to give grants in aid, and that must he under the guidance of a central department. When they passed from that

  213
  what else did they get. Money was to be given in aid of such educational institutions as might be expressly recognised by the Department under any Code or Minute for the purpose of the sub-section. That dealt with money either for problematical training colleges, or other central educational institutions which were doing special work in the country, and which were not necessarily under the control of the School Board at all. It was further provided that money might be given in aid of the provision of higher education whether the schools were available for Parliamentary grants or not. He asked the House to observe that all this could not be done in any favouring way. It must be done under the general rules which the Department put in the Code for the ordinary Government grants given for primary education. Money might also be given in aid of expenditure for bursaries. Then there was provision for payments in lieu of the old necessitous School Board divisions—the payment of 1½d. for each complete 2d. That was really a contribution to the poor neighbourhoods in respect of the £60,000 which was got. In regard to the particular Highland clause for dealing with cases where the rating was very high, it was obvious that the aid must be given by a central authority. But hon. Members had entirely forgotten as to the balance clause which, according to their calculation, gave at least a third of the whole fund to the local authorities. That money was neither spent nor controlled by the Department, it was given in hard cash to the School Boards and managers of voluntary schools, to spend as they pleased in their own control of education. Not a single speaker as far as he could tell from his utterances seemed alive to that very obvious fact which really destroyed the cogency of much of the criticism passed upon it. After all, there had been too much said about the Department. He must honestly say that the way in which hon. Members spoke of the Department puzzled him. They first of all indulged in praises which he would not call extravagant, but which were deserved of the very eminent gentleman who for so many years was the permanent head of the Department. He was always glad to hear those praises because
  214
  he knew how well deserved they were. Having said he was the most efficient servant the Department ever had, hon. Members turned round and said the one terrible thing had been the predominance of the Department and the effect which it had had on the development of Scotch education. He did not know where he was when he heard the hon. Member for the Border Burghs p tying a sort of panegyric when he spoke of the educational progress of Scotland, and then heard the hon. Baronet the Member for West Renfrew speak of the Department laying its chilling hand on the cause of education in Scotland. Surely they could not both be true.
  A great many hon. Members entirely forgot what the Department was, and why it should be there. Not a single hon. Member had referred to the fact that a great deal more money was spent in education than this sum of £600,000; some £1,500,000 or £1,600,000 was spent on education which came from the Imperial Exchequer and was distributed through the Department. The Department was the only butter between the Imperial Exchequer and the spending authorities; how, then, could it be dispensed with? From some of the criticisms one would suppose that they could get on without any Department at all. Some of the gentlemen who wrote articles in the newspapers seemed to have no idea of what was meant by administrative control. He noticed an article written by a Mr. Leishman in one of the Edinburgh papers indicated that the idea of the Department having anything to do with the Treasury had practically no point at all, and that the whole idea was the convenience of the Secretary for Scotland. Well, the convenience of the Secretary for Scotland was neither here nor there, but for administrative reasons it was essential that the Scotch Education Department should be near the Treasury. As long as he had anything to do with the Department, he would absolutely resist to the utmost any proposal to take away the Department from actual touch with its political head, a contact whose influence for better control and the avoidance of friction could only be known to those who had practical experience of administrative working. But the Department had something else to do than with the Treasury. Did not hon. Members

  215
  reflect that if local bodies were allowed of their own sweet will to modify the Code as they chose, they could practically cost the nation any sum they liked for education? Did they not reflect that every alteration made in the Code had to be a matter of expert consideration between the Department and the Treasury to find out practically how much the alteration would cost. Unless that were done they could not possibly have equality of treatment in the different portions of the United Kingdom. Some forward local body would soon write out a Code which would enable a Scottish child to earn three times as much as an English child could, and therefore that would be impossible from a Treasury point of view. It showed how extraordinarily little gentlemen who wrote letters of that sort knew of the practical work of an administrative Department.
  On the question of control it was often impossible, from the very nature of things, that they could have two really controlling bodies, but he was not insensible of the desire that there should be greater contact between the Department and Scottish opinion. The provincial councils were meant to be consultative and not administrative; and that being so he thought there was much in favour of keeping them as they were in the Bill and not amalgamating them into one larger and much more unwieldly council which would not know so much of the local needs. He was only too glad to accede to the suggestion that the Bill should not be treated by him in any controversial spirit. He hoped he had shown by what he had said that he accepted the suggestion in the friendly spirit in which it was given. In all minor matters he was quite willing to listen to any suggestions quite irrespective
  of the side of the House from which they came. All he was greatly concerned to keep was the cardinal feature of the Bill, namely, the maintenance of one authority for primary and secondary education. He was equally interested in maintaining for Roman Catholics and Episcopalians what he considered was their proportion of the finances to which they were entitled. He believed that the clause to which so much criticism had been directed—the pooling clause—when further examined would be found as regarded the primary provisions of the Bill to be a practical expedient. He hoped the House would now grant the Second Reading of the Bill.
  MR. WEIR MR. WEIR moved the adjournment of the debate.
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid he could not accept that proposition.
  MR. DALZIELsaid he was surprised that the right hon. Gentleman wished to take the Second Reading now. He must be aware that there were fifteen Gentlemen who desired to state their views in regard to the local situation in their constituencies.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Mr. Weir)
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYrose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
  Question put, "That the Question be now put."
  The House divided:—Ayes, 128; Noes, 72. (Division List No. 102.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Davenport, William Bromley

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Bignold, Arthur

  Denny, Colonel

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O.

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A.(Glasgow

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Joseph C.

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Cavendish, V. C.W.(Derbyshire

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Balcarres, Lord

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J.A.(Worc.

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J.(Manch'r

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Durning-Laurence, Sir Edwin

  Balfour, Capt, C B. (Hornsey)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds)

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Fison, Frederick William

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Rasch, Sir Frederick Carne

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Forster, Henry William

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Ridley, Hon. M.W. (Stalybridge

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.)

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S)

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Fyler, John Arthur

  Lowe, Francis William

  Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool

  Gordon, Hn. J. E.(Elgin&Nairn)

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon Alfred

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Gore, Hn. G.R.C. Ormsby-(Salop

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset)

  Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.)

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.)

  Gretton, John

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W.

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Malcolm, Ian

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Hamilton, Marq of (L'd'nderry

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Harris, F. Leverton(Tynem'th)

  Maxwell, W.J. H (Dumfriesshire

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Heath, James (Staffords. N. W.

  Montagu, G. (Huntington)

  Tufnell, Lieut. Col. Edward

  Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.

  Morgan, David J. (Walhamstow)

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Valentia, Viscount

  Hope, J F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Mount, William Arthur

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Murray, Rt.Hn. A. Grahan(Bute

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und.Lyne

  Hunt, Rowland

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N.)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.

  Percy, Earl

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Wylie, Alexander

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Plammer, Walter R.

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

  Lawson, JohnGrant(Yorks. N.R

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Lee, Athur H.(Hants., Fareham

  Randles, John S.

  Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

  NOES.

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick)

  Reddy, M.

  Asher, Alexander

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Asquith, Rt. Hon Herbert Henry

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard R.

  Rigg, Richard

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Black, Alexander William

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Boland, John

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Roche, John

  Brigg, John

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Seely, Maj. J.E. B. (Isle of Wight

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Shackleton, David James

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Joyce, Michael

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Caldwell, James

  Kilbride, Denis

  Sheehy, David

  Cawley, Frederick

  Labouchere, Henry

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Levy, Mauriee

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

  Lundon, W.

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr)

  Crean, Eugene

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Ure, Alexander

  Crombie, John William

  MacVeah, Jeremiah

  Wason, JohnCathcart(Orkney)

  Cullinan J.

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Weir, James Galloway

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Moss, Samuel

  White, Luke (York, E. R,)

  Devlin, Charles Ramsay(Galway

  Murphy, John

  Whitley J. H. (Halifax)

  Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  O'Brien, Kendal(TipperaryMid

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Doogan, P. C.

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Ellice, Capt EC(S Andrew's Bghs

  O'Dowd, John

  Mr. Herbert Gladstone and

  Farrell, James Patrick

  O'Malley, William

  Mr. Causton.

  Ffrench, Peter

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Question put accordingly, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
  The House divided:—Ayes, 70; Noes, 127. (Division List No. 103.)

  AYES.

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Brigg, John

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

  Asher, Alexander

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Crean, Eugene

  Asquith, Rt Hon. Herbert Henry

  Caldwell, James

  Crombie, John William

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Cullinan, J.

  Black, Alexander William

  Cawley, Frederick

  Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway

  Boland, John

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

  Dewar, John A (Inverness-sh.

  Lundon, W.

  Roche, John

  Doogan, P. C.

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Shackleton, David James

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  MacVeah, Jeremiah

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Ellice, Capt E.C (S. Andrw's Bghs

  M'Hugh Patrick A.

  Sheehy, David

  Farrell, Tames Patrick

  Moss, Samuel

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Ffrench, Peter

  Murphy, John

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr)

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid

  Ure, Alexander

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E.(Berwick)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Weir, James Galloway

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  O'Dowd, John

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  O'Malley, William

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Reddy, M.

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Joyce, Michael

  Rigg, Richard

  Mr. Buchanan and Mr.

  Kilbride, Denis

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Dalziel.

  Levy, Maurice

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  NOES.

  Agg-Gardner James Tynte

  Calloway, William Johnson

  Mount, William Arthur

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Godson, Sir. Augustus Frederick

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray 0.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  (Gordon, Hn. J.E.(Elgin&Nairn)

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham(Bute

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O.

  Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N.)

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury)

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs)

  Percy, Earl

  Balcarres, Lord

  Gretton, John

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. AJ. (Manch'r

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Hami'ton, Marq. of (L'nd'derry

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Balfour, Rt. HnGerald W. Leeds)

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Heath, James (Staffords, N.W)

  Randles, John S.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Henderson, Sir A.(Stalford, W.)

  Rasch, Sir Frederic Came

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Bignold, Arthur

  Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Ridley, Hon. M.W.(Stalybridge

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Rothschild, Hon Lionel Walter

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J.A.(Glasgow

  Hunt, Rowland

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claver house

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool

  Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire

  John stone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A.(Worc.

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W.(Salop.

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset)

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.)

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Lawson, John Grant(Yorks, N.R

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Lee, Arthur H.(Hants., Fareham

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Davenport, William Bromley

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Denny, Colonel

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N S

  Tomlinson, Sir Win. Edw. M.

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S.)

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Lowe, Francis William

  Valentia, Viscount

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Joseph C.

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Walrond, Rt Hon. Sir William H.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth)

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Duke Henry Edward

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Whitely, H.(Ashton und. Lyne

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J.(Manc'r

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  M'Iver Sir Lewis(EdinburghW.

  Wylie, Alexander

  Fison, Frederick William

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Maxwell, W.J. H(Dumfriesshire

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir

  Forster, Henry William

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Foster, Philip S.(Warwick,S.W.

  Morgan, David.J(Walthamstow

  Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

  Fyler, John Arthur

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Bill read a second time, and committed for to-morrow.

  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYclaimed," That the original Question be now put."
  Adjourned at twenty-two minutes after Twelve o'clock.