§ Order read, for resuming adjourned debate on Question [15th March], "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the Resolution, 'That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £2,700,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March,1904, for Additional Expenditure, in respect of the following Army Services, viz.:—
| £ | |
| Vote 1. Pay, etc. of the Army | 2,000,000 |
| Vote 6. Transport and Remounts | 2,100,000 |
| Vote 7. Provisions, Forage, and other Supplies | 2,030,000 |
| Total. | £6,130,000 |
| Excess Appropriations in Aid (Votes 1, 6, 7, 9, and 10) | 3,430,000 |
| £2,700,000 |
§ Question again proposed.
§ MR. WHITE RIDLEY (Stalybridge)said that undoubtedly it was the duty of financial critics of the Government to examine carefully into the expenditure of every sovereign whether on the Army or other Departments, but he ventured to assert that in the criticisms passed on the expenditure by hon. Members they too often failed to bear in mind the proportion of the increase in the expenditure as compared with the total outlay. The Vote under debate snowed an increase of £2,700,000. That apparently was a very large sum, but when they came to compare it with the total expenditure, which represented a considerable number of millions, it turned out, after all, to be a comparatively small matter. The expenditure mainly was in connection with the Somaliland campaign, and it would be well to bear in mind that it, was almost impossible to foresee the cost which such an expedition would entail. For the first time in the history of the House these expenses had been presented in a full and complete form, and the House, consequently had had special opportunities given it to consider the details of the expenditure. When hon. Members commenced to complain of the details he thought they ought not to forget that in past years they had not had an opportunity to consider such details, and they ought rather to recognise the public-spirited way in which the Government had acted in giving them. Unfortunately they had shown their gratitude for the outspokenness of the Government in a very parsimonious manner by entering unduly into detailed criticism. In regard to the operations in Somaliland, it ought to be borne in mind that they were undertaken on the full responsibility of the Government, and that a right hon. Gentleman, who no longer was a member of the Cabinet, had himself expressed the opinion that every member of the Government, at the time the expedition was authorised, was fully 407 responsible, and had added the hope that the operations would be concluded with the least possible delay. The Secretary of State for War, too, had told them that the operations were proceeding in a satisfactory manner, and that no effort was being spared to bring them to a close. He therefore thought that the House should not be disposed to put too is much blame upon the Government for the fact that the Estimate had been considerably exceeded. These expeditions, after all, were made in the interests of the honour and prestige of the British Empire, and any failure to carry out their objects would re-act with tenfold force upon this country. He had not risen to suggest any reduction in the estimate. His object had been rather to ask the House to realise that whatever increase, there was in the Vote was due to no serious mistake in the original Estimate, but rather to the difficulties of the campaign, and he thought the money ought to be, and would be, ungrudgingly granted by the country, and by all who wished to preserve the honour and prestige of the Empire. In Somaliland they had a difficult country for operations, they had to deal with predatory tribes who had been in the habit of interfering with British subjects, and whose incursions, if unchecked, might have involved this country in a war of a far more extensive character. It was not possible, at the beginning of a small expedition like that in Somaliland, to realise the extent of the operations which would be involved, and no one who was not conversant with the country or who was ignorant of the character of the tribes infesting the district could realise the importance of effectually stopping the incursions, or could understand the difficulty of dealing with tribes who had no fixed habitat. He did not think, considering the distance of Somaliland from England, it could be said that the Estimate was excessive, and he hoped that the House would not be disinclined to vote the necessary sum for the continuation of the expedition, but, on the contrary, express its appreciation of the fact that in continuing this expedition the Government were acting with the full approval of the country.
§ COLONEL LEGGE (St. George's, Hanover Square)desired to say a few words 408 in regard to the first item of the Vote, that of "messing allowances." A few years ago an Army Order was issued granting the soldiers an extra sum of 3d. a day as a messing allowance. Soldiers, as they knew, got what was called free rations of bread and meat. They had a pound of bread and three-quarters of a pound of meat daily, but this extra messing allowance was granted to cover the cost of groceries, tea, vegetables, sugar, and everything of that kind. It had been the custom in the Army to make deductions from the soldier's pay for that purpose, but the deductions proving insufficient, two or three years ago it was decided to give the soldier an extra threepence a day in order to cover a portion of the cost. That was a very good thing to do, but like many other things done by the War Office, this was not carried out in the best possible way. Certain regulations were drawn up in regard to the issue of that messing allowance, and one of them was to the effect that the recruit was not to get the benefit of the extra threepence which the House of Commons had voted. Now the recruit was the very man who, above all others, wanted extra food. He required to be fed up. The Regulation, however, laid it down that no soldier should receive the extra allowance until he had been six months in the service, was nineteen years of age, and was certified by his commanding officer to have made satisfactory progress during the period. But it was during those first six months that the soldiers were in the most critical period of their service. They joined the Army, possibly, after having been for a period ill fed, and, therefore, it was essential that their condition should be studied in that particular respect. For some years he had been trying to induce the authorities to modify the Regulation, but he had been unsuccessful. He had been told that the modification he suggested would involve a very great increase in the Estimates for the year. No doubt that would be so. Then, again, the argument had been put forward that it was not fair that the unskilled and untrained soldier should receive as much pay as the trained soldier. With that he agreed, but he held that the War Office had made the initial blunder of giving the trained and untrained soldier the same pay and 409 then of reducing the allowance for food in the case of the untrained man. It would have been far better if they had given an equal food allowance to both, and had reduced the pay to the untrained man.
Another point to which he wished to call especial attention was the Order issued a year ago depriving Lancer regiments of the lance. That Order, he gathered, was issued, in consequence of the report of General Ian Hamilton. With all respect to that gallant officer he wished to point out that he was an infantry soldier, and he (the speaker) did think that before the War Office came to a, decision on the point they ought to have consulted other authorities who had had some experience in cavalry work. He was supported in that view by a report written upon the operations of General Egerton. The correspondent who sent home the report described a defeat of the dervishes, and declared that had the British force included a regiment of Lancers they would have been able to do far more execution than was possible under the circumstances. He hoped before long the House might have some assurance on that point.
§ SIR JOHN COLOMB (Great Yarmouth)drew attention to the excessive amount of the Supplemental Vote for Somaliland—£1,400,000. It was an instance, he said, of the difficulty of estimating the cost of operations in a country so little known and understood. It was important at whatever cost, that, having commenced those operations, we should see them through, otherwise we might lose prestige, and however some might ridicule the notion, those who knew these countries knew that of all things prestige was the greatest factor for peace there. He rose to endeavour to impress on the Government the importance of carrying this Somaliland campaign through at all costs, because everyone knew how quickly news travelled in these savage countries, and they knew what effect any paltering and hesitating
§ in Somaliland would have on the Aden hinterland.
MR. GIBSON BOWLES (Lynn Regis)pointed out that this was a Supplementary Estimate, not merely for £6,100,000, but, in addition, for £3,400,000, Appropriations in Aid received by the Department in excess of the Estimate. If this Estimate were voted the effect would be to arrest the £3,400,000 on its way to the new Sinking Fund and divert it from being applied to the diminution of the National Debt. He protested against the system of Supplementary Estimates, which had the result of falsifying two Budgets—the one that had passed and the one to come—and was entirely destructive of the control of the House over finance. This system had been increasing enormously. During the nine years this Government had been in office the Supplementary Estimates, many of them, he admitted, most justifiable, had amounted to £95,000,000. He hoped the House would resolve in future to set itself entirely against Supplementary Estimates unless the case made out for them was of an overwhelming character. For nine successive years Supplementary Estimates had been introduced, and he thought the time had arrived when this and other financial matters should be taken into serious consideration, especially when, as in this case, the Supplementary Estimates involved the withdrawal of £3,400,000 from the Sinking Fund, which constituted the great security and bulwark of our national credit. He urged the House to resolve to set its face in future against Supplementary Estimates of any sort, unless they were shown by overwhelming proof to have been unexpected and unavoidable. They had an evil effect on the financial control of Parliament, and unless this House insisted on regaining the financial control it had lost, the most serious financial consequences would ensue.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 232; Noes. 136. (Division List No. 67.)
413| AYES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Allhusen, Augustus Hen. Eden | Arkwright, John Stanhope |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Allsopp, Hon. George | Arnold-Forster, Rt Hn. Hugh O. |
| Aird, Sir John | Anson, Sir William Reynell | Arrol, Sir William |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Graham, Henry Robert | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens |
| Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) | Parker, Sir Gilbert |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) | Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Gretton, John | Pemberton, John S. G. |
| Balcarres, Lord | Groves, James Grimble | Percy, Earl |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r | Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F'. | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds | Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nderry | Pilkington, Colonel Richard |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. | Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford) | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Plummer, Walter R. |
| Bartley, Sir George C. T. | Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Mich. Hicks | Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Haslam, Sir Alfred S. | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Bigwood, James | Heath, James (Staffords., N.W. | Pym, C. Guy |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Heaton, John Henniker | Randles, John S. |
| Bond, Edward | Holder, Augustus | Rankin, Sir James |
| Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn | Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. | Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne |
| Brassey, Albert | Hoare, Sir Samuel | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Hogg, Lindsay | Remnant, James Fanquharson |
| Brotherton, Edward Allen | Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside | Renwick, George |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Hornby, Sir William Henry | Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge) |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow | Horner, Frederick William | Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green |
| Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ | Hoult, Joseph | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Houston, Robert Paterson | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) |
| Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire | Howard, Jn. (Kent, Faversham | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) | Rothschild, Hn. Lionel Walter |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A (Worc | Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil | Round, Rt. Hon. James |
| Chapman, Edward | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Clive, Captain Percy A. | Hunt, Rowland | Russell, T. W. |
| Coates, Edward Feetham | Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.) | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Jameson, Major J. Eustace | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred. | Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles |
| Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J. |
| Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S. | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop. | Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln) |
| Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) | King, Sir Henry Seymour | Seton-Karr, Sir Henry |
| Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Cust, Henry John C. | Laurie, Lieut.-General | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
| Davenport, William Bromley | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) |
| Denny, Colonel | Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks., N. R. | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham) | Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East) |
| Digby, John K. D. Wingfield | Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) | Smith, H C (North'mb. Tyneside |
| Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S. | Spear, John Ward |
| Doughty, George | Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. | Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs. |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Bristol, S.) | Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart |
| Duke, Henry Edward | ||
| Durning- Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Lowe, Francis William | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart | Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ |
| Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton | Lyttelton, Rt, Hon. Alfred | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) |
| Faber, George Denison (York) | Macdona, John Cumming | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Fardell, Sir T. George | Maconochie, A. W. | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J (Manc'r | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Manners, Lord Cecil | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Martin, Richard Biddulph | Tuff, Charles |
| Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas | Middlemore, Jn. Throgmorton | Tufnell, Lieut-Col. Edward |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G. | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Fison, Frederick William | Milvain, Thomas | Valentia, Viscount |
| FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose | Mitchell, William (Burnley) | Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H (Sheff'ld |
| Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) |
| Flower, Sir Ernest | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Forster, Henry William | Moore, William | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H. |
| Fyler, John Arthur | Morrison, James Archibald | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Galloway, William Johnson | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E (Taunton |
| Gardner, Ernest | Mount, William Arthur | Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts. |
| Garfit, William | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. | Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd |
| Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin&Nairn) | Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute) | Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne |
| Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Gore, Hn. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc.) | Myers, William Henry | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R. |
| Goschen, Hon, George Joachim | Newdegate, Francis A. N. | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Nicholson, William Graham | Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H.(Yorks. |
| Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland - Hood and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes. |
| Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm | Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. | |
| Wood, James | Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) | Helme, Norval Watson | O'Dowd, John |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.) |
| Allen, Charles P. | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | O'Malley, William |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Horniman, Frederick John | O'Mara, James |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Hutchinson, Dr. Chales Fredk. | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Jacoby, James Alfred | Parrott, William |
| Bell, Richard | Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea) | Paulton, James Mellor |
| Black, Alexander William | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Blake, Edward | Jordan, Jeremiah | Price, Robert John |
| Boland, John | Joyce, Michael | Rea, Russell |
| Brigg, John | Kilbride, Denis | Reckitt, Harold James |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Kitson, Sir James | Reddy, M. |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Lambert, George | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Langley, Batty | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Caldwell, James | Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.) | Rigg, Richard |
| Cameron, Robert | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Layland- Barratt, Francis | Roche, John |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Leng, Sir John | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Cawley, Frederick | Levy, Maurice | Runciman, Walter |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Lewis, John Herbert | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) |
| Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark) | Lloyd-George, David | Schwann, Charles E. |
| Crombie, John William | Lough, Thomas | Shackleton, David James |
| Cullinan, J. | Lundon, W. | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Lyell, Charles Henry | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Delany, William | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Sheehy, David |
| Dewar, John A. (Invernessh. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | M'Crae, George | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | M' Fadden, Edward | Slack, John Bamford |
| Doogan, P.C. | M'Hugh, Patrick A. | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Duffy, William J. | M'Kenna, Reginald | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | Sullivan, Donal |
| Ellice, Capt E. C (S Andrw'sBghs | M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E. |
| Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) | Markham, Arthur Basil | Thomas, D. Alfred (Merthyr) |
| Emmott, Alfred | Mellor, Rt. Hon. John William | Thomas, J. A (Glamorgan, Gower |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas | Mooney, John J. | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Wallace, Robert |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Moulton, John Fletcher | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Fenwick, Charles | Murphy, John | Wason, Jn. Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) | Nannetti, Joseph P. | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Field, William | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Flynn, James Christopher | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Furness, Sir Christopher | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Gilhooly, James | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.) | |
| Grant, Corrie | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Whitley and Mr. Thomas Bayley. |
| Gordon, Sir W. Brampton | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. | |
| Hammond, John | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) | |
| Hayden, John Patrick | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
Resolution agreed to.