Commons Sitting of 8 March 1904

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.
The Clerk at the Table informed the House of the unavoidable absence of the Chairman of Ways and Means.

UNOPPOSED PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Blyth and Cowpen Gas Bill. Read the third time, and passed.
Hampton-in-Arden Gas Bill. As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
Amersham, Beaconsfield, and District Water Bill (by Order). Second Reading deferred till Tuesday, 22nd March (Evening Sitting).
Clyde Navigation (Shieldhall Dock) Bill (by Order). Order for Second Reading read, and discharged. Bill withdrawn,—(Mr. Caldwell.)

STANDING ORDERS.
Resolutions reported from the Select Committee;

1. "That, in the case of the Middles-borough, Stockton-on-Tees, and Thornaby Tramways, Petition for Bill, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with. That the parties be permitted to proceed with their Bill, provided that the powers to construct so much of Tramways Nos. 1, 2, 2A, as is outside the Urban District of Eston, be struck out of the Bill, unless the necessary consents of the local and road authorities to Tramways Nos. 1, 2, 2A, be proved before the Committee on the Bill, and provided that the powers to construct Tramways Nos. 4 and 5, and so much of Tramway No. 3 as is outside the borough of Thornaby-on-Tees, be struck out of the Bill. That the Committee on the Bill do report how far such Order has been complied with."

2. "That, in the case of the Strabane, Raphoe, and Convoy Railway Bill, Standing Order 67 ought to be dispensed with. That the parties be permitted to
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proceed with their Bill, provided that all the townlands in the parish of Convoy be omitted from the Schedule to the Bill. That the Committee on the Bill do report how far such Order has been complied with."

3. "That, in the case of the Leyton Urban District Council, Petition for dispensing with Standing Order 128 in the case of the Petition of the Dairymen, etc., within the Urban District of Leyton, against the Bill, the said Standing Order ought to be dispensed with."

4. "That, in the case of the Acton Improvement Bill, Petition for dispensing with Standing Order 128 in the case of the Petition of the Dairymen, etc., within the Urban District of Acton, against the Bill, the said Standing Order ought to be dispensed with."

5. "That, in the case of the St. Marylebone Electric Lighting Bill, Petition for dispensing with Standing Order 128 in the case of the Gas Light and Coke Company, against the Bill, the said Standing Order ought not to be dispensed with."

First Four Resolutions agreed to.
Report to lie upon the Table.
Strabane, Raphoe, and Convoy Railway Bill. Report [this day] from the Select Committee on Standing Orders read.
Bill to be read a second time.

PRIVATE BILLS (GROUP D).
Mr. CBEMER reported from the Committee on Group D of Private Bills; That, at the meeting of the Committee this day, a letter was received from Colonel Welby, Chairman of the said. Committee, stating that he was unable, on account of illness, to attend the Committee this day.
Report to lie upon the Table.

PETITIONS.
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING (LONDON) BILL.
  Petition from Battersea, against (praying to be hoard by counsel); to lie upon the Table.
  LICENCE HOLDERS.
  Petition from Carlisle, for redress of grievances; to lie upon the Table.
  LICENCES (RENEWAL).
  Petitions against alteration of Law: from New Houghton; Haggerston; Ulverstone; Dorking (two); Plymouth; Baildon; Shipley; Wibsey; East Berwickshire; Aberavon; Heathfield; Eakring; Warrington; Crewkerne; Walthamstow; Bideford; Leiston; Saxmundham; Staines; St. Albans; Walworth; Sutton in Ashfield; Kenmay; Oxford; Cumberland; Peasley Cross; Haddenham; Dublin; and Middleton in Teesdale; to lie upon Table.
  TRANSVAAL (CHINESE LABOUR ORDINANCE).
  Petition from Old Headington, withdrawal; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  TREASURY CHEST.
  Account presented, for the year 1902–3, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General thereon [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 87.]
  SUPERANNUATION ACT, 1887.
  Copy presented, of Treasury Minute, dated 3rd March, 1904, granting to William Matthews, 1st Class Clerk, Controller's Office, a Retired Allowance under the Act [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  NAVY (VICTUALLING YARD MANUFACTURING ACCOUNTS, 1902–3).
  Annual Accounts presented, of the Cost of Manufacturing, Provisions, Victualling Stores, etc., at the Home Victualling Yards and Malta Yard for 1902–3, etc., with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General thereon [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 88.]

  CANADA.
  Copy presented, of Resolution of the Legislative Assembly of the Province of Quebec on Irish Affairs, with the reply
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  thereto [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  EMIGRATION (COLONIES).
  Copy presented, of Report on the Emigrants' Information Office for the year ended 31st December, 1903 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  CROWN AGENTS FOR THE COLONIES.
  Copy presented, of Despatch from the Secretary of State for the Colonies relating to the Commercial Business of the Crown Agents for the Colonies [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  JAMAICA.
  Copy presented, of Rules and Regulations for the Administration of the Prisons in Jamaica [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  UNIVERSITIES OF OXFORD AND CAMBRIDGE ACT, 1877 (OXFORD).
  Copy presented, of Statute made by the Governing Body of All Souls College, Oxford, on 21st November, 1903, amending Statute 12a, Clause 2, of the Statutes of the College [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 89.]
  COAL SUPPLIES (ROYAL COMMISSION).
  Copy presented, of Second Report of the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the subject of the Coal Resources of the United Kingdom. Vol. I., Report. Vol. II., Minutes of Evidence and Appendices. Vol. III., Supplement. Plans and Diagrams [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  INEBRIATES' ACTS (INSPECTOR'S REPORT) (SCOTLAND).
  Copy presented, of First Report of the Inspector for Scotland, under the Inebriates' Acts, for the period to 31st December, 1903 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  PAPER LAID UPON THE TABLE BY THE CLERK OF THE HOUSE.
  Church Temporalities (Ireland). Copy of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General upon the account of the Irish Land Commission in respect of Church Temporalities in Ireland for the year ended 31st March, 1903 [by Act]; to be printed. [No. 90.]
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Pharmacy Act—Suggested Amendment.
  MR. O'MALLEY: To ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he will consider the advisability of adopting for Great Britain a measure similar to the Ordinance lately promulgated for the Orange River Colony, which prohibits a firm, co-partnership, or company, carrying on the business of a pharmaceutical chemist in the dispensing of medicines or the compounding of poisons unless the directors are qualified persons.
  (Answered by Mr. A. J. Balfour.) The subject is under consideration in connection with a Bill for the amendment of the Pharmacy Act which is in preparation.

  Promotion in the Dublin Excise Service.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury if his attention has boon drawn to the fact that, of the sixty-three first class officers of Inland Revenue on the Dublin collection, sixty-one can never receive any

  Year.

  Army.

  Navy.

  Civil.

  Total.

  £

  £

  £

  £

  1880–1881

  946,000

  210,000

  619,633

  1,775,633

  1881–1882

  615,000

  220,000

  1,070,149

  1,905,149

  1882–1883

  3,528,000

  350,000

  1,455,377

  5,333,377

  1883–1884

  870,900

  147,200

  1,021,617

  2,039,717

  1884–1885

  3,209,500

  756,200

  656,197

  4,621,897

  1885–1886

  8,000,100

  3,308,400

  364,692

  11,673,192

  1886–1887

  459,000

  277,000

  551,653

  1,287,653

  1887–1888

  —

  —

  529,965

  529,965

  1888–1889

  —

  45,000

  356,117

  401,117

  1889–1890

  71,700

  350,000

  386,041

  807,741

  1890–1891

  180,100

  350,000

  1,294,843

  1,824,943

  1891–1892

  —

  —

  1,704,554

  1,704,554

  1892–1893

  15,000

  —

  1,066,560

  1,081,560

  1893–1894

  195,100

  —

  397,227

  592,327

  1894–1895

  100

  200,000

  455,189

  655,289

  1895–1896

  671,400

  1,100,000

  746,789

  2,518,189

  1896–1897

  400,400

  507,000

  1,366,049

  2,273,449

  1897–1898

  1,490,000

  500,000

  1,978,039

  3,968,039

  1898–1899

  885,100

  350,000

  751,132

  1,986,232

  1899–1900

  23,047,000

  —

  668,336

  23,715,336

  1900–1901

  30,500,100

  2,519,300

  1,315,886

  34,335,286

  1901–1902

  5,000,000

  200,000

  7,331,151

  12,531,151

  1902–1903

  100

  —

  10,021,603

  10,021,703

  1903–1904

  2,700,000

  1,270,000

  640,693

  4,610,693

  German Inquiry into Kartells.
  MR. STUART-WORTLEY: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any
  increase in salary under the present organisation of the Excise Service; and, if so, whether, in the interest of the public service, he proposes to take any, and if so, what steps in the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Victor Cavendish.) The figures given in the Question are approximately correct. But the proportion of officers in Dublin, or in any other centre who have passed the point at which they can look for further promotion, is no indication of the general prospects of promotion throughout the service as a whole. These general prospects are very much better than the Dublin figures would suggest, and it is not considered that the present organisation of the Excise Service calls for any material modification.

  Supplementary Estimates 1880–1904.
  MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state what were the total amounts of the Supplementary Estimates in each year from 1880 to 1904.
  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.)
  information has been received as to the proceedings of the German Government Commission of Inquiry on Kartells of later date than that presented on pages

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  333–342 of the Blue-book on British and Foreign Trade, etc. (Cd. 1761); has information been received of any findings arrived at or recommendations made by that Commission; and, if so, has information been received of any administrative or legislative action taken or to be taken in consequence of such recommendations.
  (Answered by Earl Percy.) Since the sittings of the Commission referred to in the Blue-book, there have been other meetings dealing with the paper trade, the pig-iron industry, and the half-finished steel (billets etc.) trade. The proceedings at these meetings have been reported in the Reichsanzeiger. No information has been received of any findings arrived at or recommendations made by the Commission; or of any administrative or legislative action taken in connection with the proceedings of the Commission.

  Foreign Criticisms of British Trade Methods.
  MR YERBURGH: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he will present to the House a Memorandum in reference to the various Diplomatic and Consular Reports issued by the Government since the beginning of 1899, dealing with the question of foreign trade competition, in which criticisms are made on the methods of British merchants and manufacturers in meeting that competition, similar to the Memorandum (C. 9078) presented in 1898.
  (Answered by Mr. Gerald Balfour.) Steps are taken by the Board of Trade through their weekly Journal and otherwise to bring promptly to the notice of British traders such extracts from Diplomatic and Consular Reports bearing on British trade methods as seem likely to be of value for their information and guidance. I consider that this course is preferable to the publication of a general Return compiled in the way suggested, which, while of little specific value to traders with a particular market, is not altogether free from objections for reasons which I have given to the hon. Member.

  Introduction of Government Valuation Bill.
  MR. LUKE WHITE (Yorkshire, E.R., Buckrose): To ask the President of the
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  Local Government Board when he proposes to introduce the Bill for the amendment of the Law with respect to valuation authorities and the preparation of valuation lists.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) I am I unable at present to fix a day, but I hope to be able to introduce the Bill at an early date.

  Sunday Debating Societies on Licensed Premises.
  CAPTAIN NORTON (Newington, W.): To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to a refusal of the Newington licensing magistrates of a licence to the proprietor of The Royal Standard, Royal Road, West Newington, unless he discontinued the debating society held in his club-room on Sunday evenings; and, if so, will he introduce a clause in the forthcoming Licensing Bill to deal with such cases.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers Douglas.) I have no information as to the facts of this case, nor am I prepared to make any statement with regard to the Licensing Bill.

  Imprisonment of a Child.
  MR. LOUIS SINCLAIR: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has bean called to the case of Gertrude Philbrick, a child aged thirteen, who pleaded guilty to stealing 3(Z. from the pocket of a fellow schoolgirl, and was sentenced by the Colchester magistrates on 27th February to fourteen days imprisonment in the second division; and, if so, will he state what action lie intends to take in the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers Douglas.) I have already had this case before me, and have caused inquiry to be made. In view of all the circumstances that have been brought to my notice, including the fact that the girl had been previously convicted of larceny, I have not felt justified in advising any interference with the sentence; but I am now in communication with the magistrates as to the best way of dealing with such cases.

  London County Council Education Committee.
  MR. WHITMORE: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether he can state what memorials, proceeding from what bodies and individuals, have been presented to the Board of Education, urging that the scheme of the London County Council for its future education committee should be modified so as to provide for the co-option to it of persons of experience in education.
  (Answered by Sir William Anson.) Memorials have been received by the Board from the following:—Central Governing Body of the City Parochial Foundation; †Women's Industrial Council; Church School Union, Barnes; Mayfair Curzon Schools; Rev. J. J. Coxhead; Southwark Roman Catholic Diocesan Association; Westminster, etc. Schools Association (Roman Catholic); Miss Helen Conybeare and eight other educationists; Chelsea Borough; University of London; †London Progressive Education Council; 45 Prominent Educationists; Incorporated Association of Assistant Masters in Secondary Schools; Incorporated Association of Head Masters; †Women's Liberal Metropolitan Union; Kensington Borough; B. J. Smythe, Esq.; City of Westminster; P. Pritchard, Esq.; City of London; Wandsworth Borough; City and Guilds of London Institute.

  Children attending Schools outside their Residential Districts.
  MR. MORRELL: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether any instructions have been issued bearing on Article 78 of the Provisional Code of 1903 under which a child may be refused admission to a public elementary school on other than reasonable grounds; whether the intervention of a county boundary between the residence of a child and the nearest school available for that child is a reasonable ground for refusal to admit such child to a public elementary school in an adjoining county; and, whether, if in such a public elementary school, on
  †These ask for the co-option of a larger number of women.
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  the annual grant list, and free, there is an unoccupied place, one local authority may charge another a fee for the external child coming in to the school over the county boundary.
  (Answered by Sir William Anson.) In answer to the first paragraph no instructions have been issued on the subject. In answer to the second paragraph, the fact that a county boundary intervened between the residence of a child and the nearest available school would not in itself be held to constitute a reasonable ground for refusing to admit such child under Article 78; but each case would be considered on its merits. In reply to the third paragraph, if the school was one not entitled to charge fees, the local authority would have no power to charge a fee in respect of a child residing outside its area, but in cases where outside children attended in such numbers as to throw an appreciable charge on the funds of the school-owning authority, the Board of Education would support that authority in refusing admission unless the local authority of the area within which the children resided was prepared to enter into an agreement with the school-owning authority under Section 52 of the Elementary Education Act, 1870, to contribute towards the expense of maintaining the school.

  False Statements (Companies) Bill and Registered Friendly Societies.
  SIR EDWARD STRACHEY (Somersetshire, S.): To ask Mr. Attorney General whether he will say if the definition of a company, in Sub-section (2) of Section 1 of the False Statements (Companies) Bill, includes a registered friendly society.
  (Answered by Sir Robert Finlay.) Yes.

  Sale of Trinity College Estates.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has been able during the recess to devise any scheme enabling the tenants on properties where Trinity College is the head landlord to purchase their holdings; and if the suggestion of a Commission to inquire

  453
  into the legal difficulties now meets with his approval.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) I think it would be desirable to appoint a Commission. The terms of reference are under consideration.

  Expenditure under the Parish Committee Scheme in Kerry.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state how much money has been spent under the parish committee scheme in Kerry since its establishment; how many parishes have applied to take part in it; and how many have actually received grants or are working the scheme.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The scheme was established in two parishes in Kerry last year, namely, Killorglin and Glenbeigh jointly with Glencar. The expenditure amounts to £273. Applications have been received from ten parishes. The nature of the scheme has been reconsidered, and fresh instructions are being prepared to put it in operation this year in eleven parishes. Two parishes have received grants.

  Fermanagh Agricultural and Technical Instruction Committee—Religious Persuasion of Staff.
  MR. SLOANTo ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state the names, salaries, and religious persuasion of all lecturers, demonstrators, and instructresses at present holding office under the Fermanagh Committee of Agriculture and Technical Instruction.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The names and salaries of officials employed by the Fermanagh County Council in carrying out the provisions of the Agriculture and Technical Instruction Act will be found in the Return recently laid on the Table to the Order of the hon. Member for West Cavan (No. 21 of 1904). The Department has no information in respect of the religious persuasion of these officials.

  Dublin Registry Office and Records of Births.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland
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  whether he is aware that several applications have been made to the General Registry Office, Dublin, for certificates of birth, and that the applicants were informed that the entry could not be traced; and, if so, can he explain the cause.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) Applications for certificates may be unsuccessful on one of two grounds—the insufficiency of the information given, or the non-registration of the birth. The cases of unsuccessful search are comparatively few.

  Chinese Labour in the Transvaal.
  MAJOR SEELY: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps he proposes to take to ensure that the importation of Chinese indentured labour into the Transvaal shall be a temporary expedient.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) The extent to which the importation of Chinese may prove to be temporary will depend mainly upon the development of sources of labour supply in South Africa, an object which every effort will be made to attain.

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  Army Council—Salaries of Members.
  MR. BUCHANAN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War on what grounds have the salaries of the members of the Army Council been fixed at a higher rate than those given to the Sea Lords of the Admiralty Board.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR OFFICE (Mr. BROMLEY DAVENPORT,): The hon. Member is mistaken. The total emoluments of the military members of the Army Council are less than those of the First Naval Lord and the additional Naval Lord (the Controller of the Navy), but more than those of the Second and Junior Naval Lord. I think it is desirable to give the same consolidated salary to all the military members of the Army Council.
  MR. BUCHANAN: Do not the four Military Lords draw a much higher salary than the four Naval Lords?
  [No answer was returned.]

  Committee of Imperial Defence—Staff Charges.
  MR. BUCHANAN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the charge for the staff of the Committee of Imperial Defence, for which money is asked for the first time in the Army Estimates, is to be borne for the future by Army funds, or will it be shared by other Departments that have representation on the Committee.
  MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORT: The provision made in Army Estimates 1904–5 is for the extra staff who have been temporarily employed in the War Office on work connected with the Committee of Imperial defence. The question of the provision for the "permanent nucleus" of this Committee has not yet been settled.

  Transvaal Labour Ordinance—Recruiting Regulations.
  MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether in view of the fact that Chinese labourers recruited for the Transvaal mines are to be taken to Hong-Kong, where the terms of their contract are to be officially explained to them for the first time, he will secure that those labourers who then decide not to accept the terms of the contract shall be sent back to their homes at the expense of the persons who have enlisted them: and whether he will secure also that this alternative shall be fully explained to each labourer by the official representing the Government.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. LYTTELTON,): It is proposed that the recruiter's licence shall make it obligatory on him to explain to the labourer, before he leaves his district, the full terms and conditions of the contract.
  MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: Am I not correct in saying that for the first time
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  these conditions will be explained officially when the labourers are brought to Hong-Kong?
  MR. LYTTELTON: It depends on the exact meaning which the hon. Member attaches to the word "official."

  Chinese Labour in Rhodesia.
  MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any Ordinance permitting the introduction of Chinese labourers into Rhodesia has been sanctioned; and, if not, whether Parliament will be given an opportunity of discussing any such Ordinance before it is sanctioned.
  MR. LYTTELTON: Under the Southern Rhodesia Ordinances No. 18 of 1901 and No. 3 of 1902 labourers from China can be, introduced into Rhodesia with the sanction of the Secretary of State. That sanction has not as yet been given. The latter part of the Question should be addressed to the Prime Minister.
  MR. BAYLEY: Will the right hon. Gentleman, before he gives his consent, lay the whole Papers on the Table, so that the House may consider them.
  MR. LYTTELTON: That Question is involved in the one which I have asked to be put to the First Lord.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: Has the assent of the Crown been refused?
  MR. LYTTELTON: I do not say that. It has not yet been given.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: Has it been asked for? Has it been refused?
  [No answer was returned.]
  MR. HERBERT SAMUELthen asked if he might have an Answer from the First Lord.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): It seems to me that the Answer is a simple one. I do

  457
  not understand that any question of principle is raised by the introduction of Asiatic labour into Rhodesia which is not raised in connection with the same policy in the Transvaal. I do not, therefore, think a separate discussion on Rhodesia as distinguished from the Transvaal, is either necessary or desirable.
  MR. THOMASSHAW (Hawick Burghs): Will any Papers with regard to the case of Rhodesia be laid before Parliament?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I shall be very glad to consult with my right hon. friend the head of the Department. Obviously I could not answer the Question off-hand.

  Bombay—Railway Communication with Karachi.
  SIR JOHN LENG: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India what progress has been made with the scheme for joining Bombay with Karachi by railway communication through Cutch; and when the work is likely to be completed.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Mr. BRODRICK,): A scheme for a railway, sixty-one miles in length, from Hyderabad in Sind to Badin, which, if continued, would form part of a through communication between Bombay and Karachi, was sanctioned in May, 1903, and progress is being made with its construction. Beyond surveys, no further steps have been taken for completing the through line of communication, and I am unable to say when the work is likely to be undertaken.

  Board of Agriculture—District Correspondents.
  MR. SPEAR (Devonshire, Tavistock): I beg to ask the hon. Member for North Huntingdonshire, as representing the Board of Agriculture, if agricultural correspondents have been appointed for all districts in the country; and, if so, whether the reports from such correspondents will be published for the information of Members.
  MR.AILWYN FELLOWES: Honorary Agricultural correspondents have now been selected for each of the counties of England
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  and Scotland, and steps are being taken to give publicity to the appointments in the local Press and by means of notices to be exhibited at the post offices. The correspondents will not be asked to furnish regular reports at stated intervals and their communications will be of an informal and occasionally of a confidential character. Any information which may be of general interest will be published in the Journal of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, which will hereafter be published monthly instead of quarterly, a copy of which, and our leaflets will be supplied to each correspondent. The instructions to correspondents, together with a complete list of those who have consented to act, will shortly be laid before Parliament.

  Royal Commission on Tuberculosis.
  MR. BATTY LANGLEY: I bag to ask the President of the Local Government Board if he will state when the Report of the Royal Commission on Tuberculosis will be available for Members.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. GRANT LAWSON,): I understand that considerable progress has been made by the Royal Commission with their investigation, but that the necessity for making the, Report as far as possible conclusive involves a very wide series of experiments. These experiments are being carried out on an extensive scale by the Commission, and I am in formed that it is impossible to state at present when the Report will be issued.
  MR. BATTY LANGLEY: Can the hon. Gentleman give us an interim Report?
  MR. GRANT LAWSON: That rests with the Royal Commission.

  Scottish National Gallery.
  MR. BUCHANAN: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland why a Supplementary Estimate has not been presented for a grant for pictures for the National Gallery for Scotland, in view of the note on the main Estimate for the year that it might

  459
  have to be reconsidered when the Committee on the Board of Manufactures had presented its Report.
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAY,): The hon. Member will find a sum of £2,000 provided in the Estimates for 1904–5 for the purchase of pictures for the National Gallery of Scotland, and of this sum £1,000 is in respect of the current financial year in which no Vote was taken.

  Judge Ross's Court—Insolvent Estates.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether any steps are being taken to classify the number of insolvent estates in Judge Ross's Court with a view to their sale under the Land Purchase Act of last session.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM,): The Land Judge has taken steps which will ensure that an estate must be brought to sale within a reasonable time or else the petition will be dismissed. During the past seven years the amount of the gross rental collectible in his Court has been reduced by one-half owing to the extensive sales effected under the Laud Purchase Acts.

  Shannon Steamboat Traffic.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the withdrawal of the county contributions to the development of the Shannon traffic, the Board of Agriculture will take any steps to support the continuation of a steamer service on that river.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The Department of Agriculture has no funds at its disposal for subsidising this service.

  Pier Accommodation in County Kerry.
  MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether ho is aware that an inspection of the pier accommodation at Valentia and Reenard, county Kerry, has been held; and whether, in
  460
  view of the amount proposed to be expended there under the Marine Works Act, he can state when the works will be commenced.
  MR. WYNDHAM: No specific undertaking has been given to expend money provided by this Act on works at Valentia. The steam ferry proposed to be provided by the Knight of Kerry was conditional on suitable pier accommodation being provided. Plans for alternative schemes are still under the consideration of the Knight of Kerry.
  MR. BOLAND: Is it not the fact that two sums, each of £1,000, were proposed to be allocated for the ferry at Valentia?
  MR. WYNDHAM: What is now being considered is the nature of the accommodation.

  Kilkenny Stone Industries and Railway Rates.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that on the 1st of January of this year the Great Southern and Western Railway Company doubled the rate per ton for the carriage from Kilkenny to Dublin of polished or dressed limestone and marble: and whether, as the production of polished marble and limestone is an important industry in Kilkenny, he will cause the Department of Agriculture to take action to prevent its being injured by railway charges for transit to Dublin and other markets.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The Department is in communication with the railway company in this matter.

  Irish Language in National Schools
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state how many national schools will be prevented from teaching Irish as an extra owing to the recent regulations as to the general standard of the school.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I am informed by the Commissioners that it is not possible to answer this Question with any near

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  approach to accuracy. A considerable number of schools cannot at present be regarded as reaching the standard "good," but it by no means follows that a corresponding number of teachers will be prevented by the recent regulations from teaching Irish as an extra subject. In consequence of the public interest aroused by the new regulations, I have been in communication with the Commissioners in respect of some points in the recent circular which seemed to me to invite their further observations. Under the old results system, no special fee was payable for Irish in any class lower than fifth. Under the new regulations a fee will be payable in classes as low as the fourth. If Irish or any other extra subject be taught by a person unconnected with a national school, who holds a certificate of competency satisfactory to the Commissioners, such teachers will not, as might be assumed, be penalised in any way, or debarred from earning fees by reason of the fact that the ordinary school teacher has failed to conduct his school in such a manner as to earn a "good" report. Moreover, it is intended to give the inspectors a discretionary power to recommend that a teacher of a school shall be allowed to give instruction in extra branches under exceptional circumstances, even though such teacher fails to secure a "good" report on his school. The inspectors will be required, in their reports, to take into consideration the social condition, ages, etc., of the pupils, as well as the locality of the school, and any other circumstances that might render exceptional treatment necessary.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: Who is the individual responsible for these regulations? Tell us the name of the gentleman.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I cannot do that. The responsibility rests with the Commissioners of National Education.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: But there is some one driving the wheel. Who is it?
  MR. WYNDHAM: I can only say that the Commissioners, as a body, are responsible.

  Belfast Police and Roman Catholic Bazaars.
  MR. SLOAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the District Officer of the Royal Irish Constabulary of the North West district, Belfast, has signed a communication, which he sent to the barracks, asking for volunteers to sell tickets in connection with a bazaar for the purpose of raising funds in aid of a Roman Catholic church in Dublin: and what action, if any, he intends taking in the matter.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The fact is correctly stated. For the past thirty years the Roman Catholic members of the force in Dublin have attended service at this church. It was considered, therefore, that the church has special claims on the generosity of Roman Catholic members of the Constabulary throughout Ireland, all of whom have attended service there at one time or another. The District Inspector acted with the approval of the Inspector-General. The matter does not call for any action on my part.

  Use of the Irish Language in Law Courts.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, whether, in view of the alleged illegal conduct of Mr. M'Donagh Mahony in signing warrants and other documents in Irish, steps will be taken to recover the fine which the Statute 11 George II. imposes for a breach of it.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The Government does not propose to sue for the recovery of the penalty in this case.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: If this magistrate has acted illegally who is responsible for suing him for penalties?
  MR. WYNDHAM: It is open to the hon. Member to sue him.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: This is a very important matter. What Statute does the right hon. Gentleman rely upon. The Lord Chancellor we are told relies on 2nd George II., while the Attorney-General relies on the 22nd George II.,

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  and neither of them deals with this question.
  MR. WYNDHAMasked for notice of the Question.
  Mr. THOMAS O'DONNELL: Will the right hon. Gentleman lay on the Table the correspondence between the Lord Chancellor and the magistrate?
  MR. WYNDHAM: I cannot answer that without notice.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN (Cork Co., E.): Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to repeal this Statute?
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order!

  Longford Postmen
  MR. J. P. FAREELL: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General to state the hours of duty imposed on the three postmen engaged in letter distribution in Longford; whether he is aware that the man who comes on duty at 11 p.m. practically remains on till 11 a.m. the next day, as the interval between 4 a.m. and 6 a.m. given him for rest is useless for sleeping purposes; and whether, both in the interests of the health and efficiency of the staff, he will direct a re-arrangement of the hours so as to enable a man going off duty at 4 a.m. to remain off till at least 11 a.m. the same day.
  THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Lord STANLEY,): The hours of duty of the three established town postmen at Longford are strictly in accordance with the rules, inasmuch as the attendance does not exceed eight hours, and admits of a clear interval of at least nine hours at home in each case. The arrangement to which special reference is made seems, however, to be inconvenient, and I will see whether the circumstances admit of its being improved.

  Longford Post Office—Station Duties.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the fact that the contract to carry parcels and letters to and from Longford Post
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  Office and Longford Railway Station, advertised for last June, was intended to provide a car for the purpose of relieving the local letter carriers from carrying the mails as well as parcels to and from the station, he will explain why the contract actually entered into does not include the mails at 9.13 a.m., 5.0 p.m., and 7.18 p.m., so that the postmen have yet to carry these mail bags up and down the main street of Longford; and whether he will direct that the original arrangement in this matter be carried out.
  LORD STANLEY: The station services at the hours mentioned by the hon. Member were not included in the contract, as the weight of the mails at those hours is not such as to necessitate their being conveyed by horse and car. A hand-cart is provided for the purpose where the weight is appreciable, but the postmen apparently prefer not to use it.

  Irish Food Exports.
  MR. LOUGH: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether, having regard to the quantity of food exported from Ireland, and to the fact that food forms the largest part of the imports into Great Britain, and in view of the desirability of making the Returns of these imports complete and accurate, especially with regard to butter, meat, eggs, and poultry, he will undertake to separate in future editions of the Statistical Abstract and other returns of figures the exports and imports of Ireland from those of Great Britain.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR,): No account is kept by the Customs Department of the removal of goods generally from one part of the Kingdom to another, and it is therefore impossible to comply with the hon. Member's suggestion in this respect. Particulars of the direct foreign trade of Irish ports distinguishing principal articles are already given in Volume II. of the "Annual Statement of Trade."
  MR. LOUGH: Is it not the fact that the expense of doing this work is charged on the Irish Estimates. Is it not of great

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  importance that we should have some account?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: That (Question should be addressed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
  *MR. D. A. THOMAS (Merthyr Tydfil): Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the early part of the last century the exports from Ireland to Great Britain were always given separately?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: Really I have no control over the Customs. That is no part of the duty of the Board of Trade. These Questions must be addressed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

  Sunday Train Service from Dublin to Sligo.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the desire in the Midland counties of Ireland for one through return train run on Sundays from Broadstone, Dublin, to Sligo; and whether he will represent to the Midland Great Western Railway Company the desirability of inaugurating this service during the coming summer.
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: This is not a matter in which the Board of Trade could usefully interfere with the discretion of the railway company concerned.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: Seeing that the right hon. Gentleman when he was Chief Secretary made representations to this company on matters of public interest, cannot he do so now?
  [No answer was returned.]

  Church Discipline.
  MR. BRYNMOR JONES: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether his attention has recently been drawn to the alleged continuance of ecclesiastical disorders in many dioceses of the Church of England; and whether he will move, at an early date, or give facilities to a Motion, for the appointment of a Select Committee of this House, to inquire into the nature and extent of present ecclesiastical disorders, into proposed legislative
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  remedies and into other matters connected therewith; and to report thereon.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am grateful for the courtesy of the hon. Gentleman, who has put this Question off for a week at my request. The subject is, one of very great interest and importance, and I have done my best with such means as are at my disposal to find out what progress has been made in connection with what is described in the Question as the disorders in the Church of England. On the whole, I believe the progress has been considerable, though I am afraid it cannot be alleged that it has been as great as most of us would desire. There is great doubt as to the facts in this case. There are many persons who believe that these, disorders are widely spread over England, that, they permeate the whole system of the National Church; and others who, on the other hand, hold that they are extremely restricted in area and confined to one or two particular spots. I think both of those opposing parties have some right to ask for an investigation, and I do not think, therefore, that the Government would be justified in refusing it. The only question for determination is what form the inquiry should lake. The hon Gentleman suggests a Select Committee. I do not think that, for many reasons, that is the most convenient form of inquiry. I do not think even a Joint Committee of the two Houses is the most convenient form—certainly not the form most in accordance with precedent. There have been many Royal Commissions I to inquire into and deal with questions of discipline in the Church of England, but there has been, so far as I am aware, no Committee of the House of Commons. I have not gone through the whole of our records to make sure that that statement is accurate. I am quite confident, however, that I am right in saying that the general stream of precedent runs in the direction of dealing with these very important questions by a Royal Commission. In these circumstances I shall lose no time in forming such a Commission and recommending it to His Majesty the King.
  MR. AUSTIN TAYLOR: May I ask whether, in view of the fact that the conditions and circumstances of the Church of England are

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  unprecedented, it would not be advisable to depart from precedent and appoint a Committee of the House.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Haying given the matter the best consideration in my power, I am disposed, on the merits, to take a somewhat different view from my hon. friend; and I feel that a Commission would be the best instrument which we have at our command.

STANDING COMMITTEES.
Ordered, That all Standing Committees have leave to print and circulate with the Votes the Minutes of their Proceedings and any Amended Clauses of Bills committed to them.—(Lord Edmund Fitz-maurice.)
COMMONS.
Ordered, That Mr. Crombie, Mr. Jeffreys, Mr. Heywood Johnstone, Mr. William Jones, Mr. Loyd, Mr. John Campbell, and Mr. Freeman-Thomas, be Members of the Select Committee on Commons.—(Sir A. Acland-Hood.)
NEW WRIT.
New Writ for Lancashire (North East Lancashire, Rossendale Division), in the room of Sir William Mather, knight (Manor of Northstead).—(Mr. Robert Spencer.)

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to make further provision with respect to the arrangement of Polling Districts for the Election of County Councillors." [Polling Districts (County Councils) Bill [Lords.]
And, also, a Bill intituled, "An Act to amend the Law relating to the arrangement of Polling Districts in Parliamentary Boroughs." [Polling Arrangements Parliamentary Boroughs) Bill [Lords.]

NEW BILLS.
  CROFTERS' HOLDINGS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  "To amend the Crofters' Holdings (Scotland) Act, 1886," presented by Mr. Leveson-Gower; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed [Bill 115.]
  TOWN HOLDINGS BILL.
  "To give compensation to Occupying Tenants of Town Holdings for beneficial improvements," presented by Mr. Charming; supported by Sir Walter-Foster, Sir John Brunner, Mr. Emmott, Mr. Kearley, and Sir James Woodhouse; to be read a second time upon Friday, 18th March, and to be printed. [Bill 116.]

  SUPPLY (ARMY ESTIMATES).
  Order read, for resuming adjourned debate on Main Question [7th March], "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
  Main Question again proposed.
  MR. GUESTcomplained that the Secretary of State for War in his speech had laid down no general principles, and had not stated whether the Army was intended for home defence or for foreign aggression, while with regard to the question of cost, the only expression of opinion the right hon. Gentleman had given in the matter of economy had amounted to his desire to make some few adventitious savings. He had told them nothing about the distribution of the Army in times of peace, he had said nothing about the reorganisation of the War Office, and he had left them with the impression that the old state of muddle and confusion was still to continue. There was, in fact, nothing in his speech to indicate that in the future there would be any guarantee against a repetition of the regrettable incidents and misfortunes which marked the outbreak of the late South African war. What made that all the more noteworthy was the fact that directly the right hon. Gentleman left the province of the Regular Army he embarked on a discussion of the Auxiliary Forces in which he expressed very decided views. For instance, in regard to the Militia, ho declared that it was in a profoundly unsatisfactory condition, and he traced the cause of that largely to the force having been regarded as an adjunct to the Line. He also told them it was his policy to abolish the new Militia. Reserve. Then in regard to the Volunteers ho told them that he had definite views, and he did not think that the Volunteers —not through any fault of their own—were fulfilling the duties which the

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  country expected of them. The same remark applied to the Yeomanry. He said that the Yeomanry gave him the greatest possible satisfaction, and in that respect he acknowledged the services rendered by his predecessor. He (Mr. Guest) was inclined to give credit for the resent satisfactory condition of the Yeomanry force to the late Secretary for War, and he hoped that the present holder of that office would avoid the mistake which had been made in regard to the Militia, and would not treat the Yeomanry as an adjunct of the Cavalry. The contrast between the way in which the right hon. Gentleman treated the Regular Army and the Auxiliary Forces was very marked indeed.
  The House had naturally looked forward to his statement as indicating what would be the policy of the War Office for the coming year. But the right hon. Gentleman said nothing in his speech about the Committee of Defence. It would be interesting to know whether the Secretary for War was of opinion that the creation of a permanent nucleus of the Committee of Defence was desirable or undesirable in the interests of the policy he was recommending to the country. Again, he sail nothing about the thinking department of the Army, upon which so much stress was laid by the War Commission. Further, there was not a word on the General Staff, and there was no indication whether he thought that the creation of that body would save the country from a repetition of any of the awkward incidents that had occurred at the beginning of the late war. It was peculiar, too, that the right hon. Gentleman said nothing about the Army Corps system, It would be interesting to know whether he recommended the retention of that system, and whether he considered that that system, either as a military instrument or as an administrative unit, was suited to the needs of the country. They did not know whether he agreed with the recommendation for the creation of eight districts under major-generals, as was suggested in the Report of the Reconstruction Committee. Then they had not a word in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman about the question of decentralisation. What was his policy in regard to that? They knew nothing as yet. They knew nothing, too, in regard to
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  the terms of service under which enlistments were at present made. It was a, well known fact that under the present system of enlistment for three years there was some doubt as to whether at the completion of the present year the right hon. Gentleman would be able to find the necessary drafts for our Indian and colonial services. That was a very important matter, and surely it was one they might have expected to figure in the annual speech of the right hon. Gentleman. Then there was the question of the linked battalions, which went to the very root of the whole War Office and Army organisation. Under the present system of linked battalions we had very large garrisons retained in this country—far larger than many thought necessary for the defence of the country, always supposing, of course, that the defence of the country was to be entrusted to the Regular Army. Surely on that question they might have expected some observations in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman.
  To his mind the right hon. Gentleman's statement was altogether inexplicable. After all, he was responsible for the triumvirate of the Reconstitution Committee, and, as far as could be understood, he agreed with the Report of that body. He had told them that he regarded it as a coherent whole—a coherent work from the beginning to the middle and to the; end, and that it was necessary that it should be either adopted or rejected as a whole. Yet he had adopted one half of the Report and had ignored the other half altogether. He had established an Army Council—a very important stop, and one of the main recommendations of the Committee. He had gone much further than that, for he had removed what was, perhaps, the greatest impediment of all to Army reform, he had determined to be master in his own Department, and had taken the extreme step, and no doubt to him a very painful step, of dismissing the old personnel of the War Office. He had now under him a staff of men who, in a sense, were his own creatures, and who had, no doubt, been appointed with the object of carrying out great reforms. All this gigantic preparation, involving a breach with the past, had recently been introduced, and

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  yet when the supreme moment arrived, when he was expected to propose to the House and the country the reforms for which these preparations were made, he came down and made a speech in which there was nothing to indicate what reforms he intended to carry out with the machinery he had created. He had contented himself by making a sort of interim statement. He had told them that this was the last time that such Estimates as he had brought forward, might be expected to be presented to the House of Commons. It was a very great pity that the right hon. Gentleman had missed the opportunity which now offered itself for carrying the great reforms upon which he had, it was believed, insisted. The right hon. Gentleman had told them that they were at the parting of the ways, but there was nothing in his speech to indicate what was the new path he had determined to strike out in order to carry the reforms which were assumed to be desired. This procrastination was very much to be regretted. Ministers to day had notoriously short lives, and it would have been an advantage to the cause of Army reform if the right hon. Gentleman had left a record of his personal feeling as to the direction and extent in which Army reform might possibly be developed. People's wills were sometimes respected, and some such sort of testamentary inheritance from the right hon. Gentleman to his successor would have been of value to the House of Commons, because even if the right hon. Gentleman had not survived to put his scheme into execution through public opinion being directed into other channels, it still would have been something to have had on record his plans. There was no doubt public opinion was prepared to support the right hon. Gentleman in his task. The temper of the House, the temper of the country, based on the accumulation of evidence which they had in the Reports of the War Commission and of the Reorganisation Committee, were all in favour of the cause of reform, and it was very unfortunate, under the circumstances, that the right hon. Gentleman should have contented himself with a half-hearted presentment of the subject.
  He was quite aware that the Secretary of State for War was not ommipotent.
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  It might be there were difficulties in his path which were concealed from the outside observer, but they would like to know very much what was the sinister influence which prevented the adoption of reforms which were by common consent so very necessary. They knew that the Prime Minister took great interest in the question; they knew that last autumn the right hon. Gentleman indicated that he was in favour of reform. Then what were the difficulties which had arisen in the path of those reforms? Were there differences of opinion in the Cabinet which prevented the right hon. Gentleman from having his way? Was this another attempt to keep the Party together? was it another attempt to sacrifice what would be the logical outcome of previous sequences of events in order that private feelings might be assuaged and awkward incidents might not arise for discussion? It was very unfortunate if that were so, because, whatever might be the necessity, in other matters, to keep the Party together, whatever sacrifices might be required, it seemed to him that this was a moment when other considerations should prevail, and it was most deplorable that the opportunity for securing substantial reforms should be missed. Of course, during the debates of the Army Estimates they would have many opportunities of getting from the right hon. Gentleman indications of what his intentions were, and how he proposed to develop his policy. But he could only repeat again that he thought it was most unfortunate that the right hon. Gentleman had not come boldly forward with a definite scheme of reform of a far-reaching character—a scheme for which, no doubt, he would have obtained support both inside and outside the House of Commons, a support which would have greatly facilitated the passage of his proposals through Parliament. He hoped even now it was not too late to exhort the right hon. Gentleman to adopt some such course, and thus secure the practical application of the principles which he was believed to have in his mind.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILLsaid he wished to direct the attention of the House, for a few minutes to one specific matter, and he approached it in

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  the character of a civilian. It was one affecting the personal rights and liberty of the subject. It had to deal with the post of Judge Advocate-General, which he held should be constituted on its old basis of a Ministerial and Parliamentary office whose holder would be directly responsible to Parliament. To make this a non-political office was to abolish it, and its abolition was to be deplored, not only on account of its historical associations, but because by virtue of his office, the Judge Advocate-General had always been the responsible adviser of the Government in military matters, just as the Attorney-General and the other law officers in that House were their responsible advisers in civil matters. The Judge Advocate-General, too, was essentially the King's Minister, and he had a privilege enjoyed by no other Minister of the Crown, viz., of the personal access at all times and places to the presence of the Crown in order to tender advice. It was desirable that the man who was responsible for revising the proceedings of Courts-martial should be in the House to answer interrogators. It was a great pity that because, of some wretched cheeseparing economy this ancient historical office had been abolished, and had been made a non-political post. An enormous number of Courts-martial were held every year by officers who could not lie said to be experts in military law, and it was the duty of the Judge Advocate-General to revise the sentences and to lay the results of his revision before the Crown and the Commander-in-Chief. In May last the Secretary of State for War, replying to a Question by the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury, stated that the number of Court-martial proceedings submitted to the Judge Advocate-General's Department, and of convictions wholly quashed in the three preceeding years were as follows: —1900, 17,711 Courts-martial, 47 quashed; 1901, 19,349 Courts-martial, 67 quashed; 1902,14,732 Courts-mirtial, 47 quashed. Having regard to the fact that during the time this was going on the Judge Advocate-General had been appointed by the Board of Trade the head of a Commission it was utterly impossible that he could have personally revised these proceedings. They must have been revised by officials whom this
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  House could not reach. When the matter referred to was brought before the late Secretary of State for War, he absolutely denied responsibility with reference to the proceedings of Courts-martial. He slid it was the Judge Advocate-General who had charge of them. A more unconstitutional and improper statement was never made by a Minister. The charge he made was that under the present system the liberties of private soldiers were not safe. This state of matters would remain until there was a Minister, a legal adviser in military matters for the Crown, in this House. There were things done and outside influence brought to bear that could never have been tolerated if the Judge. Advocate-General hid been in this House. The Court-martial at Wellington Barracks in July last year was brought about by great pressure being put on the Government eighteen months after the events to which the proceedings referred. The facts were known. A civilian in a hotel at Cape Town was maltreated, subjected to shocking indignity, and horrid indecency by ten officers. An action was brought against them in the Civil Court, and a number of the defendants were found liable in damages to the person who was attacked. Mr. Bartley, stockbroker, Johannesburg, who at the proceedings in Cape Town spoke in regard to the horrible acts of indecency which took place was asked by telegram on 5th May whether he would come back and give evidence as to the indecency, and a telegram was received on 6th May stating that he would not. The charge, or what was sometimes called the indictment, against the officers was drawn in such a way as to secure their acquittal on the charge of indecency. That was a cut-and-dried arrangement by some of the understrappers in the Judge Advocate-General's Office. Ii the indictment had been drafted in the ordinary way he believed the men would have been convicted. The fact that the Judge Advocate-General was not a member of the Government produced desperate hardships in the case of private soldiers whose Cass might be investigated by callous clerks. It was a shield for rich and high-placed offenders from the course of justice. He implored hon. and right

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  hon. Gentlemen to assist him in his plea for the re-establishment of this ancient and honourable Parliamentary office.
  *COLONEL BLUNDELLsaid he wished to refer to the strength of the home regiments at Alder-shot intended to be first sent out on Service. At the present time from a halt to two-thirds had to be added from the Reserve, and he regarded that as a serious state of matters. The Reserve system, as had been shown in the South African war, worked thoroughly well when once put in operation, but it was a very difficult thing to put it in operation. The Reserve was called out by proclamation declaring that a national danger existed. The result was that every Government delayed a long time before making that declaration.
  MR. SPEAKER: I think I am right in saying that the matter the hon. and gallant Member is referring to is prescribed by statute. It does not arise on the Estimates.
  COLONEL BLUNUELLsaid he was not proposing to alter the statute, but he was going to suggest to the Secretary of State how the matter might be dealt with in another way. He would propose that there should be a number of men allowed to be on prolonged furlough and ready to be called back by the officer commanding the regiment. The only other way of meeting the difficulty was to send out the young men at lease as many of them as the doctor would pass —because anything was better than this terrible delay. He strongly urged that the commander of a regiment should be able to fill up his regiment before the Reserves were called out. As to Garrison Artillery he thought they should be largely composed of Militia. Then as to the Defence Committee he had no objection to a small department, as it was called, with a Secretary: but he objected entirely to the confidential Reports of the Intelligence Department being handed over from that Department to another. That would be absolutely fatal; those confidential reports should be kept under the land and key of the officer in charge of the Intelligence Department—as if it was thought necessary to change the
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  heads of Departments, at the change of system these officers should be compensated for the financial loss incurred.
  CAPTAIN NORTON (Newington, W.)said that those hon. Members who for many years past had taken an interest in Army reform and had usually acted in sympathy with the right hon. Gentleman who now represented the War Office were glad at length to find that he occupied that high office. But they found themselves in a very awkward position, inasmuch as they had not been taken into the confidence of the right hon. Gentleman. The right hon. Gentleman told the House that we were standing at the parting of the ways, but their difficulty was that the Estimates went in one direction and the right hon. Gentleman's views and aspirations travelled along another road. The right hon. Gentleman in the outset of his speech made the very remarkable statement thai;—
  "Until a short time ago the country did nor quite know what duties the Army was expected to perform."
  neither did the House at the present moment. And the right hon. Gentleman continued—
  "At this moment we do not possess the full knowledge which we might some day possess,"
  that was what they complained of—
  "but what the strength of the Army ought to be and what its duties, were subjects for professional judgment and for the judgment of the House."
  In other words, it amounted to the old nursery rhyme, "Shut your eyes and open your mouth and see what you will; get." They were asked to discuss these Estimates because the right hon. Gentleman hoped to introduce others based on a different system. Surely that was an insult to the House. They were told that the Army and the Navy were to be considered together; but that was what they had been contending for for the last ten years, and what the right hon. Baronet the Member for Forest of Dean had been demanding for twenty years. If that was what was about to take place he could assure the right hon. Gentleman that he would have no more ardent supporters than the Army reformers on both sides of the House. He asked the right hon. Gentleman upon what horse they were to put their money? Was

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  it on the Army Corps system which they were told by the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor, not long ago, held the field, in which statement the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor was backed up by the Prime Minister? Had the Government changed their minds? Had they abandoned the Army Corps system and the linked battalions? [An HON. MEMBER: Yes.] Some hon. Gentleman said "Yes," but he would like to hear from the Secretary of State for War whether or not that was the case.
  They had been led to believe that there was diminished expenditure, but he maintained that diminished expenditure was altogether illusory unless the old system was not to be maintained. Everything pointed to increased expenditure and the diminished expenditure was apparent rather than real. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of "a machine that would do our work.…capable of performing the task that may be imposed upon it." They had heard that statement over and over again from the Treasury Bench; what they were anxious to know was when they were to get it. It was the old story of "Live horse and you'll get grass." The existing position amounted to this:—The Foot Guards, the best troops in the country were reduced 2,000; the Infantry, the backbone of the Army, were reduced by 5,000; the Army Reserve was below its usual strength; the Militia Reserve was practically gone; the Militia itself was in a deplorable slate; the Volunteers were decreasing. The right hon. Gentleman was proud of the fact that, for the first time in history, the Yeomanry had now nearly arrived at its normal strength, although he did not mention that the force was still ineffective in as much as half the horses were borrowed. Then in connection with this diminished expenditure, some £750,000 were taken from the surplus remaining after the war. They were promised thirty batteries of new guns, but all these were for India; that carte blanche had been given to the manufacturers to turn out as many new guns as fast as they could; but the payment for these guns would come on the Estimates with which many hon. Members now in the House would have nothing to do. The right hon. Gentleman boasted of the new rifle; but he
  478
  understood that its only merit was that, it was somewhat shorter than the present weapon; and to do this was to cause an expenditure of £2,000,000. The right hon. Gentleman acknowledged that the recruiting was bad, and that any charges for the Somaliland expenditure were not on the Estimates. The whole thing was preposterous. The idea that the Army Estimates had been diminished might be true, but it was only partially true, and was only accomplished by diminishing our fighting force to a lower point than at any previous period of our history. The right hon. Gentleman told the House that the new field gun was superior to any other weapon in Europe. Of course, new guns adopted by any Government were always the best in the world! The right hon. Gentleman never touched on the very basis of the whole Army scheme—the question of recruiting. They would probably be told that the right hon. Gentleman had a trump card up his sleeve; but they wanted to know what the trump card was. They had heard of Part I. and Part II. of the Report of the three gentlemen appointed to reorganise the War Office—one of whom was a brilliant strategist, and the other two were comparatively unknown. In Part II. they were told that Part I. had already been adopted, but the Estimates had nothing to do with any one of the parts of the Report. He had no doubt that if they could see Part III. they might have a fully and completely developed scheme, but it had nothing whatever to do with the Estimates. It was a monstrous thing to ask the House to discuss those Estimates when they knew full well that the right hon. Gentleman had no complete scheme to submit to the House.
  As regards recruiting, the right hon. Gentleman acknowledged that the returns were very bad and that the quality of the recruits was bad. The right hon. Gentleman said that one reason why the recruiting was so bad was that the recruiting for the Artillery and Cavalry had been closed. But all the recruits that could have been obtained for those branches had been obtained during the war, and very few men could now be obtained for them. Efforts had been made to bring the Foot Guards up to their proper standards by offering bounties to

  479
  men to exchange from the Artillery and Cavalry. The right hon. Gentleman said that the Army was now a splendid career for a young man. That was not the opinion of the youth of the country from which the Army was drawn. Although he himself was the first to admit that the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor made a most gallant effort to improve the position of the soldier, still he had not done sufficient to induce a consistent flow of the right class of men into the service. In order to keep up the Army Corps system, which was heartily supported by the Prime Minister, a large number of men were engaged for three years. The authorities believed, rightly or wrongly, he thought wrongly himself, that a large number of men would re-engage and that in that way they would be able to obtain men for the Indian reliefs. In answer to a Question put by him to the Secretary of State the right hon. Gentleman said that some 4,000 or 5,000 three-years' men were serving in India and that 3,600 were under orders for India. Therefore the War Office was endeavouring to keep up the garrison in India with men who were engaged for three years only. The Government had broken faith with those men by sending them to India, and unless another gross injustice was to be done to them they should be returned to this country before they had completed their three years service. The men were nominally eighteen years of age, but they all Knew that youths enlisted at fifteen, sixteen, or seventeen years, and all soldiers who had experience of India said that a regiment of young soldiers sent to that country practically dropped to pieces and that a large number of the men succumbed to the climate. It was the custom to send young soldiers to the hills for a year, and therefore a large portion of the Indian garrison was absolutely ineffective. The 4,000 or 5,000 man who were sent out would cost the country something like £500,000 sterling. It was well known that it did not pay the Indian Government to accept the services of any man for lass than five years, but men were now being seat out for three years at a cost of £100 each to India and £20 to this country. This country would have to pay £500,000 in order to provide bogus
  480
  reliefs for the Indian garrison. The right hon. Gentleman might say that that was the fault of the system introduced by his predecessor, but there was no sum in the present Estimates dealing with the matter and there would have to be an enormous charge next year in order to carry out the Indian reliefs. The three years men who would insist on returning to this country would cost about an additional £1,000,000 sterling. More than half that sum ought to be borne on this year's Estimates, but was being thrust forward to next year's Estimates. It might be said that India had to be garrisoned, but he should have thought that the large number of seasoned men in this country who had seen service in South Africa would suffice for that purpose if they were engaged for seven years and were given sufficient pay. At present India was being garrisoned by the Government practically breaking faith with the seven years' men who were being kept a year longer in that country. He hoped that no such injustice would be done to the throe years' men.
  With reference to the Militia the Militia the right hon. Gentleman admitted that it was in a profoundly unsatisfactory state. Its present strength was only 75,000 men, and they knew from their experience of the war what a wastage there would be if they were called to arms. He failed to see how the Militia could be rendered effective unless a further charge were placed on the Estimates. The right hon. Gentleman very properly pointed out that the Militia had been ruined owing to the fact that it was looked upon simply as an adjunct or feeder of the Army. When the officer commanding had got his regiment into proper order he was robbed of his best officers and his best recruits, in order to bolster up the Line battalions. He himself did not see how they were going to attract officers and men to the Militia without further expense. In endeavouring to deal with the Estimates the Committee were simply flogging a dead horse because they were given to understand that they were only interim Estimates which would only run for a certain time, and that the real Estimates would be of quite another character. He thought it unfair to bring forward the Estimates in this way. A

  481
  Vote on Account should be taken and the proper Estimates presented when the Committee was in possession of the new system. In other words they wore asked to discuss the Estimates in the dark. The right hon. Gentleman began his speech by saying that they ought to know whit the Army was for and what it was expected to do. If there was one thing the Army was expected to do it was to defend the Indian Empire. They knew the difficulties existing in the East, and that they might be called upon to place troops on the north-west frontier. Every soldier knew that if they placed the garrison on the frontier it would have to be replaced by troops from this country. It was said that they could get Militia and Volunteers, but how were they to provide against the wastage. They knew what the foreign military attachés in South Africa thought of the mob which Lord Roberts led. They were told that the war was to be finished with unconditional surrender, but it was brought to an end by a conditional surrender at a cost of £250,000,000 and 20,000 lives. If a similar difficulty arose it would mean conscription in its most drastic form. The Army was now not a whit better than it was ten years ago. The country was now no better prepared than it was before the South African war. Under such conditions it was a most unfair thing to ask the House to discuss these Estimates and leave them in the dark as to the plan of the Government as foreshadowed by those portions of the Report which they had accepted.
  *MAJOR EVANS GORDONexpressed the most fervent hope that the reforms foreshadowed in the Report would be put into force and adopted by the Government as soon as possible. He confessed he did not quite understand the attitude of some of his hon. friends and the hon. Gentlemen opposite in this matter. The Secretary of State for War had expressed his warm approval of the reforms suggested by the Committee, and in so doing had practically answered a large proportion of the many Questions which had been addressed to him in this debate. What did hon. Gentlemen want? They were on the eve of getting almost everything they had asked for; they could not expect every
  482
  demand to be acceded to immediately. Last year he and those who thought with him criticised the six Army Corps scheme. I and though their criticisms were then derided in this House it was subsequently discovered from the Report of the Royal Commission on the War that in those criticisms they had voiced the opinions of most distinguished soldiers, and to, crown all came the Report of Lord Esher's Committee condemning the scheme, which if not already dead was rapidly expiring. They had also asked for decentralisation and a general staff, and these reforms also were being adopted. Indeed there was not a point which had been raised which had not been dealt with and adopted by the Committee of three. That being so the least hon. Members could do now was to give the Government all the support and encouragement they could to adopt those very schemes for which they had been fighting so long. He did not say that there were not points which needed discussion and further elucidation. He was not satisfied, for instance, that the creation of a separate and independent Military Bureau under the immediate control of the Prime Minister of the day was altogether necessary or vise. There seemed to him, as far as one was able to understand it, an underlying risk of divided and antagonistic military opinion between the advisers of the Secretary of State for War and the advisers of the Prime Minister. He feared also that this arrangement might give rise to a want of that continuity in scientific military preparation which should always be going on irrespective of the immediate political situation. A change of Government and of a Prime Minister with a policy in diametric opposition to that of his predecessor would necessarily affect and modify the attitude of the immediate military advisers appointed and controlled by the head of the Government. He would at first sight far rather see the Bureau of the Committee of Defence worked as a subordinate department of the general staff of the Army so that in the regrettable event of the political situation needing the intervention of the soldiers, there should be only one recognised military authority to whom the Cabinet would refer for advice as to the military requirements. He hoped they should have an early opportunity of discussing such points

  483
  as these. Meanwhile those earnestly desirous of real Army reform could only express a fervent hope that the Secretary of State would receive the full support of the Government and of this House, as he was sure he would receive the support of the country, in carrying through these great changes with which he had declared himself to be in such full and complete agreement. As to other reforms, such as the great problems of recruiting, the linked battalion system, the feeding of the units abroad with men from the home battalion, the reorganisation of the Volunteers, etc., etc., they all knew that there was no one in this country, let alone in this House, who had a more profound knowledge of these questions, or a more earnest desire to solve them, than his right hon. friend. He, for one, was only too glad that these matters should be in such capable hands, and he was willing to leave them therein the confident belief that the Secretary of State would bring them before the House as soon as he could. Surely they might be a little patient, and give him time to mature his plans, dealing as they must do with matters of the utmost difficulty and complexity.
  Comments had been made in this debate by the Leader of the Opposition and others, as to the confusion which had arisen in regard to the Estimates, etc., owing to the recommendations contained in these Reports. Of course some confusion was bound to arise when great and drastic changes of this kind were in process of development. But of this they might be sure, that the temporary confusion existing was nothing when compared to the permanent chaos which was to be replaced. The origin and constitutional form of the Committee of three had also been criticised. It might not have been in accordance with precedent, but it had a better claim upon our regard. For it was in accordance with the dictates of wisdom and common sense. Its origin seemed simple enough to him. They had a Report from a Royal Commission disclosing grave and terrible faults which had brought this country to the brink of disaster. That Commission made no direct recommendation as to how these faults were to be remedied. The Government then immediately appointed a Committee composed of the three best men who could be found
  484
  to complete the work which the Commission had begun, and to formulate reforms which an exhaustive enquiry had shown to be necessary. The Leader of the Opposition laughed at the frequent use of the word "vital," and condemned the hastiness of the proceedings. He did not think anyone reading these Reports impartially, could fail to agree that the changes recommended were vital. And if the right hon. Gentleman asked what was the need for hurry, he, in return would ask what case could be made out for delay. This thing needed to be done, and if so surely it wore best done quickly. They had delayed long enough in all conscience, and he trusted that the Government would go on as they had begun, and act with that promptitude and thoroughness which, in his judgment, the situation seemed to demand. For many years past the War Office and the Army had been labouring and suffering under a bad and rotten system. What had been lacking? A sufficient head of steam in the country and in Parliament to drag this antiquated machinery to the scrap heap and the dust destructor. The Royal Commission and the Committee had at length got up that head of steam. Surely they should be guilty of a supreme act of folly if they did anything to damp the fire or reduce the pressure for which they had waited so long.
  MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSEsaid there would be many who would not be sorry to see such a result as the hon. Member had just sketched and who would think it a fitting and proper end for much of the machinery which had been at work in every department of the Government for the last ten years. Before going further into the question of these Estimates he desired to ask two specific Questions of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War. If the right hon. Gentleman looked at the Memorandum issued by the Secretary of State for War for 1903–4 he would find an unexpended balance of £300,000 under the Mo watt programme and so far as could be seen no provision was made in the Estimates for the spending of the balance. He wished to know whether on the one hand the Estimates were not misleading, or whether, on the other hand, notwithstanding all promises made to the contrary, of the whole of the money

  485
  recommended to be spent by the Mowatt Commission £300,000 had been left unspent because of the exigencies of the Budget which was to come. The other Question was of a more technical character. If the right hon. Gentleman looked at his Report of this year he would find that the whole of the Artillery machine guns would be finished by 1904, and now there was to be a new pattern of quick-firing equipment. What he wished to know was would those guns, as soon as the new pattern equipment was started, be put upon the scrap heap. During the last two years 530 guns had been added to fortresses, field batteries, and Horse Artillery batteries for service at home and in India. Were the whole of those guns to be thrown on one side, the money spent on them wasted, and an entirely new pattern of gun provided? Further, had any notice been taken by the War Office of the statement of the War Commission that the maintenance of fifteen calibres of guns was a source of great expense at home and inconvenience in the field, and of the recommendation that only four calibres of guns should be maintained in the future. The Secretary of State had referred to the state of recruiting as being unsatisfactory. How could he have imagined it would be anything else? Did he not remember the "exact parallel" drawn by the present Secretary of State for India between the British Army and indentured Chinese labour. Such a parallel was not likely to induce men to enlist in the Army.
  *MR. SPEAKERreminded the hon. Member that to refer to debates in the same session on another subject was out of order.
  MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSEsaid he would pass from that matter to the Report of the Reorganisation Committee. During the last ten years there had been no less than four Reports dealing with the reorganisation of that Department, and three Orders in Council re-arranging the duties of high officials in the War Office. Each of those Reports had been issued in a great hurry, and was contradictory of its predecessor. The last issue occurred simultaneously with a discussion in this House upon +he defects of organisation revealed
  486
  by the War Commission, and the coincidence might be thought by some to have been brought about to distract attention from those defects. The House heard yesterday that this last Report had been adopted en bloc.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. ARNOLD-FORSTER,): No such statement was made by me.
  MR. CHARLES, HOBHOUSEsaid that if the right hon. Gentleman would consult the reports of his speech in the newspapers he would see that that was the phrase he was reported to have used.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: What I said was that I trusted it might be adopted en bloc.
  MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSEaccepted the right hon. Gentleman's correction; he had simply quoted the words as reported. It was also stated in the newspapers that the further consideration of this Report had been postponed owing to the attitude taken up by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and the Secretary of State for India. Consequently the House did not know whether the Report was to be adopted en bloc or to be rejected en bloc, whether the position of the War Office was to be regulated by the new scheme or by the old scheme. If the Report were adopted en bloc what would be the position of the Secretary of State for India or of the Prime Minister. In 1901 the Prime Minister expressed the opinion that the Army Corps system was admirably contrived and the hope that the scheme would be carried out, and pointed to the then Secretary of State for War as one of the greatest reformers that had been known in this House. It was somewhat extraordinary that upon the findings of a new Report all that should be reversed, the Secretary of State for India thrown over, and the new Secretary of State for War hailed as the only saviour of the Army. Who was to guarantee that the new scheme would not be as quickly reversed as its predecessor? The more one examined that scheme the more one hesitated to adopt it. Boldness and wisdom were not interchangeable

  487
  terms. The scheme was marked by much boldness, but its wisdom was open to question. In the new order of things each member was to control a particular Vote or Votes. In the present Estimates there was no evidence of that duty of control having been assigned to this or that particular member; on the contrary, the Votes were framed on the old lines, and there was not that subdivision of duties and labour which might have been expected had the new scheme been really in operation. In the working of the new War Office Council more would depend upon its being carried out con amore than upon any other factor. The last War Office Council was never worked as such a Council ought to be between civilians and soldiers. It might also be said that there was not that clearness of division of duties between the old Army Corps scheme and the new proposals. The country was to be divided into five instead of six districts, with seven subordinate districts, and nineteen districts subordinate to the seven; and there would necessarily be the multiplication of correspondence and the continual references from district to district, From subordinate to superior, which went on under the old process. One of the main objections urged against the Army Corps system was that the numbers provided for were in excess of the numbers required. But as there was practically no reduction of numbers under the present scheme, it was in that respect no better than its predecessor. With regard to the linked battalion system he had always differed from the views of his right hon. friend the Member for the Forest of Dean. The right hon. Baronet last night was very jubilant over the disappearance of that system, and in support of his views quoted the names of Lord Wolseley, Sir Ian Hamilton, and the Adjutant-General. In the Report of the War Commission, however, the one piece of evidence bearing on the linked battalion system was as follows—
  "We do not get value for money by our regimental depots. At some of them very few recruits are raised, and the staff is idle a great part of the year; the decision to put an end to such a state of things would have a good effect, we should save money and improve our organisation.…To the mind of the economist it seems a cheaper plan to have these reservoirs in the shape of large depots rather than in the
  488
  shape of battalions, hut these great depots will not work well. We want to send a man abroad fully trained and disciplined, and this he can never be converted into at any ordinary depot. If there be 700, 800, or 900 rank and life at the depot, it will require as many officers to get it in a healthy state and effectively train the men for the annual foreign draft as would be required for an ordinary battalion. In my opinion, shared by those who have in recent years served at the War Office, our present system of a battalion at home for every one abroad, is the simplest and best, if military efficiency be the great object in view.…Our internal military history for the past twenty-five years has in every way demonstrated the wisdom of those who in 1870 proclaimed this principle as the keystone of the arch supporting the new military organisation then introduced."
  Those words were taken from a memorandum written by Lord Wolseley when Commander-in-Chief in 1897.
  *SIR CHARLES DILKE: Then he has contradicted himself.
  MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSEsaid he had been unable to find the contradiction; and in any case, the views there expressed were in agreement with the opinions of every Secretary of State for War since Lord Cardwell, and of every Commander-in-Chief and general officer commanding who had held office during the last ten or twelve years.
  That no statement as to the needs of the Army should have been put forward was a remarkable omission from the statement of the Secretary of State. A reformed Defence Committee had been in existence for nine or ten months, and one of the first things they should have considered in view of the Estimates was the number of men to be retained by the country. From the war commission Report and various statements made since some idea could be formed as to the number of men that ought to be kept up by the country. In his evidence before the Commission Lord Wolseley said it was perfectly possible that an invasion or raid might be made upon this country by a force of 150,000 men. He laid down as sufficient to meet this force 100,000 Regulars, 50,000 Militia, and 100,000 Volunteers. In the debate of 1901 the present Chief Secretary for Ireland laid down as the requirements for the Colonies garrison, four

  489
  battalions for Egypt, and fourteen for South Africa. These, together with transport and artillery, made up a total or 58,000 men. The requirements of India were 75,000 and this made up the total requirements for abroad, India, and home 233,000 men. They had to add a certain proportion for staff and so forth and allowing for that upon a 10 per cent. basis they got a force of 260,000 men. What did the Secretary of State for War propose to maintain under the present scheme? The total number laid down as necessary was 288,000, of whom 14,000 were Colonial and native troops. Therefore they could, without endangering the safety of this country, reduce the present forces at home in infantry by 16,000 men. If they took the ordinary cost of the infantry soldier at £60 that would give a saving of something like £1,000,000. That might not be considered a great sum, but it would at any rate be a beginning. At present the Militia were down to 75,000 men, and if Lord Wolseley's statement that they did not require more than 50,000 in case of invasion provided they laid down a higher standard, was correct then the Militia with safety might be reduced to 55,000 men. Upon those items alone they might effect a saving of at least £2,000,000 a year upon the Army Estimates. With regard to the Auxiliary Forces the right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean said last year that if they wished to bring the Volunteers and Yeomanry up to a higher standard of efficiency they should tell them what they were expected to do. At the present time they were ignorant of their duties they would have to undertake in case of an invasion of this country. The difficulty arose not because encouragement was not given to the Auxiliary Forces by the War Office, but because the wrong sort of encouragement was given them, and they were not instructed in their duties and were not told what would be expected of them in case they were wanted for active service. He had ventured to put forward what he believed to be practical ideas in connection with these Estimates and he hoped some notice would be taken of them in the reply from the Front Treasury Bench.
  *MR. PEELsaid they had heard various expressions of opinion
  490
  from the other side of the House. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Forest of Dean objected to the Estimates because the Government would not pledge themselves to the adoption of the Report of the Committee. They had heard a different opinion from the hon. Member opposite, who objected generally to the Report of the Committee and he was ready to censure the Government very strongly if they took so bold a course as to put the whole of the Report into force. He thought the hon. Member for Bristol had taken mere of a Party view than the right hon. Gentleman opposite, for he went back over what he called ten disastrous years and told of the number of changes effected by Orders in Council with reference to the organisation of the Army, and in that respect he had some sympathy with him. Anyone who read a considerable portion of the War Commission Report would get up with a very confused idea of the history of the different War Office Councils, which succeeded each other with almost overwhelming confusion. Then there was another difference of opinion amongst hon. Gentlemen opposite in regard to the linked battalion system. The right hon. Baronet opposite trampled on the system, whereas the hon. Member opposite argued that it would be far more expensive to establish these depots so much favoured by Army reformers and by the Secretary of State for War. Not content with this difference of opinion they dragged in Lord Wolseley's views on the linked battalion system, each claiming him as their champion. He confessed that he had much sympathy with the position of the Secretary of State for War in this matter. He stood between two worlds, the old world of chaos, and what he hoped would be the new world of organisation. He thought the right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean, many of whose criticisms he agreed with, was rather severe upon the Secretary for War in the demands he made for immediate changes in the War Office.
  *SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid he demanded a definite pledge as to what the new system was to be.
  *MR. PEELsaid he supposed his right hon. friend referred to both Part I. and Part II. of the Report.
  *SIR CHARLES DILKE: Yes, and more especially to the Army Corps system.
  *MR. PEEL saidthat the right hon. Baronet answered his own Question in another part of his speech, because he asked whether the Army Corps system was to be abandoned, and then he told them that the Corps had never existed. In that case he failed to see how they could be abandoned. He was himself in some doubt as to the position of the Army Corps, and it was clear that three of them never came into existence at all. The right hon. Baronet had criticised the signing of those Estimates and the responsibility the Army Council must have for them. He thought their responsibility must be very limited in the case of the first Estimates, because it was an official act which they must perform. He supposed really they ought not to have had the signature of the present Secretary for War, but it would have looked a little odd if the Secretary of State for India had appended his name to them. The right hon. Gentleman discussed the relations of the general staff with the staff of the Defence Committee, and his lamentations were shared by his hon. friend behind him; and he said he was afraid that the duties of the general staff would be to some extent infringed upon and might be overshadowed by this Committee of Defence which was to be set up. The general staff would receive reports from the Army and the Navy, and this would be the channel through which the reports would come to the Defence Committee, and, therefore, they might alter the tone of those reports in the way they presented those matters to the Defence Committee. There might be something in that, but, on the other hand, he did not know whether the right hon. Baronet remembered that on the Committee of Defence there would be representatives of the War Office and the Admiralty, and those representatives would be able to place their views before the Committee of Defence. There must be some other coordinating body besides this general staff of the Army which only dealt with the defence of this country, offensive schemes, and the question of the Colonies. They must have some other body which
  492
  would co-ordinate the schemes of the Navy and the War Office and India as well.
  A good deal of criticism had been brought to bear upon the statement of the Prime Minister that Part I. of the Report had not been accepted. He did not know in what sense that statement was made. They had a statement last year from the Prime Minister that certain Chilian ships were not going to be bought by the Admiralty, but they were subsequently bought. He interpreted that statement made by the right hon. Gentleman in the same sense as his previous statement. It seemed to him that substantially the principles laid down in the Report were already accepted. They had secured the substitution of the Army Council, the abolition of the Commander-in-Chief, and the appointment of an Inspector-General. These three facts really represented the leading principles in the Report of the Committee. He supposed that the Secretary for War went as far as he possibly could in saying that he had every belief that the recommendadions of the Committee would be adopted en bloc. He quite agreed with the hon. Member opposite that there were many details, especially with regard to finance, in the new suggestions which must require very careful criticism, and therefore, however much the right hon. Gentleman might agree with the general principles, he could not say with confidence that they would be adopted until there had been a very careful consideration of the relations of the financial part of the scheme to the changes which were to be made. So far as he knew they had no estimate of whether the new scheme would be cheaper than the previous scheme. The Secretary for War had stated that we had never yet established the crucial aim or object for which the Army existed. That was a matter which even still could hardly be absolutely established. We knew pretty well what establishments we required for our Colonies and for India. He did not say that opinion was settled, but opinion was crystallising round the size of the expeditionary force that must be always ready. What we did not know as yet was what the strength of the force for actual home defence should be. Nor

  493
  did he see how a clear idea of that force could be formed until we knew what was to be the re-organisation of the Auxiliary forces. A Commission was now sitting on a portion of that question, mainly, he thought, on the question of the supply of officers, and they could not decide the force that would be required for home defence until they had settled clearly what was the amount of work and training to be required from the Auxiliary forces.
  In regard to the reduction in the Estimates, they must look not merely at the amount, but also at the tendency. It was certainly a matter of congratulation that for the first time for many years in the history of the Army and Navy a certain amount of reduction had been secured in the Estimates.
  MR. O'MARA: Where has the reduction taken place in the Navy Estimates?
  *MR. PEELsaid there was an apparent reduction. The reduction in the Army Estimates was not altogether very satisfactory if they looked at it in another way. This was a reduction on balance, and the reductions that had been effected were reductions in non-recurring expenditure, whereas the increases amounting to £1,370,000 were on annual recurrent expenditure. They had only to look at the statement of the Secretary for War to see that these were increases in the expenditure which would not only be permanent, but would themselves increase. There was first of all the increase in the amount paid to the Reserves, and the increased pay to the Army which would be a further charge this year. Then there was also the increased charge for the garrison in South Africa. He should like to know whether the Secretary of State considered that the number of men we had at present in the garrison in South Africa should be the limit of what we must have there, or whether it was a garrison which in subsequent years might be reduced. The Secretary of Stale also foreshadowed, in connection with the Estimates of next year and the year after in respect of guns and re-armament, that there must be a considerable increase in expenditure, so that though the tendency indicated by
  494
  the saving of £280,000 was good he did not think they could congratulate themselves very much upon it. In regard to recruiting he was disappointed to hear that the Secretary of State was not satisfied with the quality of the recruits. Those who had followed this subject knew that several changes were brought into the method of recruiting last year. The change in connection with obtaining characters for recruits had been, he was glad to say, thoroughly approved by the Inspector-General of Recruiting, who stated in his report that though there was at first some falling off in the number of recruits that falling off soon picked itself up again, and that, on the whole, he believed a better class of recruits would be produced by obtaining a certificate of character which would satisfy those who were joining the Army that they would not at least meet bad characters when in barracks. It was too soon yet to say what would be the effect on recruiting of the increased pay, but looking to the number of recruits for six or eight years they could probably not expect to get more than 40,000 in the year. Under the scheme put forward by the late Secretary of State for War it was assumed that in order to supply the drafts for India and to bring up the Reserve something between 175,000 and 200,000 men would be required, and that it would be necessary to obtain at least 50,000 recruits a year. It did not appear that men when going into the Army were very much interested in the pay they would receive two years hence, but perhaps the knowledge of the increased pay had not filtered down to the classes who naturally might be. expected to be interested in it. If 40,000 recruits were as high a number as they could expect, that entirely upset the calculation of the late Secretary of State for War both as to Indian drafts and the supply of the Reserve, and made the question of the drafts for India a very serious one. He congratulated the right hon. Gentleman on having begun at the right end of the business with thy re-organisation of the War Office, and with the redivision and repartition of the duties of that office which had been far too long a sort of "Aunt Sally" to be attacked on every platform.
  *MR. McCRAEsaid this House was placed in a position with reference to these Estimates unparalleled in the history of Parliament. Never unless under stress of European complication or prospective War, had any Minister come down to this House and asked for a blank cheque for £29,000,000, for that was really the position in which they found themselves to-day. The Secretary of State for War presented these Estimates, and on his own admission they had not even the semblance of accuracy with regard to the scheme which was looming in the distance. These Estimates were based on a scheme of Army reform which had been repudiated and condemned by the Cabinet, by the Secretary of State for War, and by the Committee of investigation. He hoped that before going into Committee they would have a statement from the Prime Minister, otherwise the whole proceedings in Committee would be very much in the nature of a farce. The, proper course would be to have a Vote on account, so that the Government could have time to have settled convictions on the question of Army reform. On the question of the Volunteers, after what had been said by the Secretary for War to the Westminster Volunteers the other day, he was convinced, after twenty-five years expedience, that the War Office did not understand the Volunteer force. Nor did the right hon. Gentleman, with all his desire to do the best he could for that force, understand the position of matters. He always had the opinion that the late Commander-in-Chief took the wrong view of what was to be expected of the Volunteers, and the result of the regulations brought into play had been seen in the diminished force. They were to make it their aim to get as many men as they could to go through a course of training, but they could not expect to get the same service for £6 a year in a Volunteer as they paid £60 for in a Regular. This country ought to have a small Army able to do anything, and go anywhere, and as many Volunteers as possible for home defence with a groundwork of training which could be perfected when necessity arose. He hoped the Secretary for War would turn his attention to the matter. Much more serious dangers were likely to arise from the new
  496
  procedure introduced by the Secretary for War, whereby Estimates were submitted to the House which, on the face of them, were not true Estimates. The Secretary for War did not attempt to justify the amount of nearly £29,000,000 he asked for in these Estimates. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bristol, when introducing his Budget in 1896, said that the great question the House and country ought to consider was whether o r expenditure was not increasing faster than the capacity of the country to bear if. That was called the £100,000,000 Budget, but the expenditure on the Army was then only £18,000,000. The same right hon. Gentleman, speaking in his own constituency in the same year, said he wondered whether the Commander-in-Chief himself would tell the country that we got an adequate return for the £18,000,000 spent on the Army. That same question he would put to-day—Did we get an adequate return for the £29,000,000 which the right hot. Gentleman proposed to spend next year on the Army? That was an. increase of £11,000,000 in nine years—during the reign of the present Government. How long was the House to allow this increase of expenditure to go on without protest? The war expenditure in South Africa had blunted their susceptibilities as to the true proportion of expenditure. The public mind had been vitiated, and it had not been able to realise the effect of the present enormous Estimates. He suggested that provisional Estimates for the different service departments should be considered by the He use and that then it should have an opportunity of considering the whole expenditure in gross. The national danger before the country was that in considering Estimates in detail, the House had no opportunity until the Budget of realising what the gross expenditure amounted to. He was sure the House would support the right hon. Gentleman with his scheme of Army reform if it was a good one, but they must know what it was, and that information they were entitled to have before going into Committee.
  SIR CARNE RASCHsaid that the War Office had shown considerable adaptability in this matter.

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  They were like the editor who was prepared to reverse the policy of his paper in twenty-four hours. No doubt a certain amount of soreness had accrued from the stipulations in the first part of the Report of the Royal Commission. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for War might, of course, say that you cannot make omelettes without breaking eggs and that a reformer was never in favour; but ho could not understand how in the reform of the War Office the soldiers had been taken and the permanent officials left. He was glad that something had been done with the Finance Department, for they all knew that that Department, with the Treasury, was the original cause which had thwarted every attempt at reorganisation for the last twenty years. That was proved by the statement made by Sir Henry Brackenbury as to what happened in 1889. He congratulated the right hon. Gentleman on the reduction of expenditure he had effected, although, as the right hon. Baronet opposite had said, that was more apparent than real. He was glad that the Secretary for War had taken into his serious consideration the question of the Militia. Surely it was time that something should be done for that force, which was below its nominal strength and had neither transport nor guns. It was not going too far to say that the Militia, as a force, was a patent and recognised fraud. He called attention to the enormous amount of money spent unnecessarily by the Quartermaster-General's department. Troops were moved from one end of the Empire to another quite unnecessarily. The 7th Dragoon Guards were quartered in 1902 in South Africa, and moved that year to India; and this year they had been sent back to South Africa. The expenses of this unnecessary movement of a whole regiment of cavalry 3,000 miles must have been very considerable. He thought the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Forest of Dean was a little hard on the Government in regard to the re-arming of the Artillery. The Germans re-armed their artillery, and the Italians half their artillery, four years ago, and both the guns were absolutely unsuccessful. The only nation in the world that had a good quick-firing gun was the French, and they
  498
  took good care not to let foreigners know the mechanism of that gun. If our Government had organised quick firing guns four years ago, the probability was that we would have had to re-arm our artillery now at great additional expense.
  The War Office were going to reorganise the regimental officers and the subalterns. General Sir Ian Hamilton and the other generals at the War Office appeared to forget that they had been once subalterns themselves; they imagined that they had always been generals. The extraordinary expense to which these officers were put for the remarkable and wonderful change of kit and uniform absolutely went for nothing. It appeared to the bright official of the War Office that the guard of the sword should be brass instead of steel. That was rather expensive, but subsequently it was ordered that the guards should be again changed to the former metal. He thought it would astonish the hon. Gentleman if he read a list of the changes which had been made in the officers' uniforms in the last few years. Swords were twice changed. In 1880 badges collar to shoulders were altered to gold shoulder cords; roll collars were abolished, and the stand up collar was introduced. In 1881 the facings were changed and stiff caps were introduced in substitution for the cheese cutter. In 1886, field service caps were introduced and two years later miniature medals were abolished. In 1893 red serge was abolished, and the sword was worn outside, whilst in 1895 an order substituted blue serge for red, with the sword worn inside. In 1898 Sam Brown was introduced and blue patrol was cast out; brown leggings were substituted for black and the roll collar was reintroduced in place of gold shoulder cords. In 1901 the collar was again altered, blue frock coats were introduced, buttons were 2½ wider and sashes were allowed round the waist; drab great coats gave place to grey coats, naval caps gave way to field service caps, belts were altered, and drab serge and medals were re-introduced. Then in 1903 the drab serge coats and badges were again altered. Surely the gentleman who suggested all these alterations might now rest on his laurels. Even if the War

  499
  Office kept on this individual they surely need not carry out all the recommendations which he suggested. He (Sir C. Rasch) had great sympathy with what Thackeray said in the Book of Snobs, that one ought to be paid to understand the reason of this useless expense and tomfoolery on uniforms. A subaltern was only paid 6s. 6d. a day, and therefore he had very little money with which to alter the details of his dress every other year.
  It seemed to him quite useless to build a model hall in Parliament Street in order to reorganise the War Office when the Army could not get the money it required. The plan produced by the Secretary of State last year was not a success; the men were not forthcoming, and how the present Secretary of State was to get them Heaven only knew; he did not. 103,000 men were wanted every seven years and it was rather difficult to know what should be done. He himself did not believe that the difficulty was insoluble. There was, however, no comparison between this country and foreign countries because every other country except America had a conscript army and America had not to keep 80,000 men in the tropics. Lord Wolseley had suggested a good way out of the difficulty, and that was to pay recruits the average wages of the working classes. That was all very well but it was very expensive. The only effective way would be to reduce the men with the colours and increase the men on the Reserve. A man with the colours cost £60 a year; a man in the Reserve £9. If, as the right hon. Gentleman said, the active Army was to be kept out of the country, and if the defence of the United Kingdom was to be entrusted to the Reserve forces, why not increase the latter and decrease the former. In that way it would be possible to pay the men more, and to get the right stamp of man. If they went on as at present the Army would be in a similar position to that in which the Prince of Montenegro found his Army. He had to disband it because there were more junior officers than privates.
  MR. NANNETTIsaid he wished to direct attention to grievances from which they in Ireland
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  suffered, and for which they had failed to get any satisfactory or sympathetic reply. He did not hold the present Secretary for War responsible for those grievances, which he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would now remove. There were in Ireland a large number of ordnance workshops which, however, he was sorry to say were employed in repairing articles sent across from this country. He was happy to state that in the evidence given before the Committee the commander of the forces in Ireland took a different line, and he would ask the right hon. Gentleman to give effect to the recommendations contained in that evidence. His Royal Highness the Duke of Con-naught was of opinion that the work could be done in the ordnance workshops of Ireland cheaper and better than elsewhere, and that such a thing would not only benefit the people of Ireland but also the Army. At the present time Ireland was asked to organise an International Exhibition under the patronage of the King, but what was the use of attempting to resuscitate the industries of Ireland when benefits of this kind were denied her. Let the right hon. Gentleman open the ordnance workshops that existed in Ireland at the present time as workshops and not keep them as storehouses for things required for the Army which were sent from England. Ireland had to contribute a considerable sum towards the upkeep of an Army which she did not require, and it was only fair and just that some return should be made by opening the ordnance factories for the manufacture of stores and thus carry out the suggestions of His Royal Highness, in whose opinion, as given before the Committee, the needs of an Army district should be supplied as far as possible by the district itself. If the right hon. Gentleman carried out that suggestion he would earn the sympathy of the Irish artisans and those who represented them in this House. He would not now further occupy the time of the House but would reserve his right to deal with these matters when the Estimates were before the Committee. He hoped it would not be necessary to exercise that right, but that the right hon. Gentleman would see that justice was done. Only recently in the right hon. Gentleman's own constituency he visited a boot factory and was told in

  501
  answer to an inquiry he made that the present conditions of the War Office made it impossible for Irishmen to compete for Army contracts for the reason that all goods manufactured in Ireland had to go to Woolwich for examination, which not only entailed considerable expense but in many cases contributed to the deterioration of the article manufactured. He suggested that to meet this case examination depots should be opened in Ireland where the goods supplied by Irish competitors could be examined by officers appointed for that purpose. Such a reform would be of great benefit and would give employment to a great number of people in that country.
  *COLONEL LEGGE (St. George's Hanover Square)said he felt some difficulty in discussing the Estimates because not only had the House the Estimates themselves and the Memorandum of the Secretary of State in explanation of them, but they also had a Report of the re-constitution of the War Office Committee which had been approved and adopted by the Government, a second Report which had been approved but not adopted by the Government, and they were promised a third which had neither been approved nor adopted. He noticed the Memorandum showed a reduction in the number of men, but unfortunately, that was not a reduction made with a view to economy, but a reduction which was due to the simple fact that the Army were unable to obtain a sufficient number of recruits. That was a most unsatisfactory condition of things in face of the hopes that were entertained of a considerable influx of recruits as a result of the improved conditions of service and pay, which were introduced last year by the late Secretary of State for War. One of the reasons why we did not get the number of recruits required undoubtedly was the bad barrack accommodation in many parts of the country, and another was that the recruit, who was a growing lad requiring all the nourishment he could get, did not get so much food as the trained soldier. Some of our barracks were in such a condition that no self-respecting working man would go into them, and until the barracks were improved recruits would not be forthcoming. The messing allowance would
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  also have to be improved, and it was much to be regretted when the additions to the pay were made that in the case of the recruit the money was not withheld and food given to him instead. The growth of the Army Reserve would be very satisfactory if it were a real Reserve, but he agreed with the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State who, in a speech at Liverpool recently, pointed out that the Reserve was not a real Reserve at all. A Reserve should be supplemental to and not take the place of the first line of defence. What happened in 1899, when it became necessary to mobilise the Army and call upon the Reserve? After taking out those men who were not fit for service abroad it was found that the strength of the Army and Reserves together was 14,000 men less than that of the Army on a peace footing.
  With regard to the adoption of the first part of the Report of the Reconstitution Committee, he might say he had known the War Office for forty years, and, whatever the changes made, so far as he could see it remained the same thing. The Army Board had disappeared, and in its place was the Army Council. The Commander-in-Chief was replaced by the Inspector-General. The Six Army Corps were about to disappear and in their place was to be one Army Corps and five Commanders-in-Chief, and he really could not see there was much difference in the main in these alterations that had been made in the different branches of the War Office. According to page 10 of the Estimates, the total estimated expenditure for the Army, including amounts provided for in the Civil Service and Revenue Department Estimates, amounted to £29,324,180. He did not know whether it was possible to reduce any of those Estimates by any large sum, but there was one item to which he specially desired to call attention, viz., Stationery and Printing, £140,000. It would probably be news to I some Members to learn that there were 145 volumes of Army Regulations alone, 350 different forms of Army books, and over 2,500 different forms. If the Secretary of State could effect considerable reductions in this direction he would do great service. The establishment of the Yeomanry was put down at

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  28,114 as against 35,196 for last year, but there was nothing in the Memorandum to show whether that reduction was caused by the action of the War Office or by inability to obtain the number of men required. He hoped the right hon. Gentle man would afford whatever information he could on these points.
  DE. FARQUHARSONreferring to the abolition of the ancient post of Judge Advocate-General, under which the British soldier obtained protection in the highest Court of appeal through which he could ventilate his grievances, said he had never been able to find any reason for that abolition except that of effecting a cheeseparing economy. The present was not a time for suggesting any large expenditure, but there was such a thing as buying cheapness too dearly. All would admit that military punishments were often altogether disproportionate to the nature of the offences committed by soldiers as compared with the punishments inflicted upon civilians. He did not, however, base his argument on any special grievance in connection with the working of the department. What he contended was that the House should be very careful to retain its authority over the administration of military law. He had not a word to say against the right hon. Judge now at the head of the department. Sir Francis Jeune was a Judge of the highest capacity, but, from the absorbing nature of his usual occupation, it was evident that he could have little leisure to bestow upon this undoubtedly complicated business. The post of Judge Advocate-General was not a sinecure. Courts-martial were, after all, only bodies of amateurs, whose proceedings from time to time required most careful and detailed examination by a well-paid, highly-placed Minister of the Crown, to whom appeals could be made in all cases of dispute, before whom matters of argument could be raised in Parliament, and through whom this House would retain and exercise its constitutional authority over the administration of military law. It would doubtless be a great comfort to right hon. Gentlemen opposite to hear a word of praise in connection with their operations. The Army Medical Department was in excellent condition, the credit for which was due chiefly
  504
  to the late Secretary of State for War and the present occupant of the office. At the examination prior to the introduction of the new regulations not a single candidate put in an appearance, whereas at the last examination there were nearly three times as many candidates as appointments—men of the highest class, of good education, and to whom the health of the soldiers could be entrusted with perfect confidence. At the examination for promotion the examiner declared that he had hardly ever known papers of such ability to be written by candidates. But with that praise there was a word of warning to be uttered. The present excellent arrangements should not be tinkered with. There had been excellent arrangements before, but by alterations, tinkerings, and worrying restrictions, the basis on which the popularity of the service was built up had been destroyed. It was to be greatly regretted that the Director-General had been removed from his place on the Army Board. To be called in merely for consultation or to give evidence was a very different thing from being a member of the Board. As he had said, the present arrangements were excellent and the flow of candidates in every way satisfactory, but any attempt to alter or interfere with the settled arrangements would shatter the whole fabric of success and bring about that reaction of insincerity and discomfort which had so often upset the good working of Army reform.
  With regard to recruiting, to get the necessary men the War Office must do one of two things. They must either pay more or revert to that system which was foreign to the sympathies of the British people, namely, conscription. Sir T. Kelly-Kenny in his evidence on the South African War gave his opinion in favour of conscription. One or two medical officers of high position gave it as probable that if the present condition of things went on, they would have to have recourse to that system of conscription which he was sure they would all deplore. Still more serious was the physical deterioration of the recruits. At Manchester the rejections amounted to 40 per cent., and the recruits enlisted were not of a very high character. Those who knew the Army and remembered the kind of men they got in former years, would agree that physically the standard

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  of the recruits was lower than it ought to he. He hoped the Government would push on with their Committee on Physical Deterioration, and he trusted that eventually they would have a Royal Commission, which would enable them to find out whether they were deteriorating as a nation or only going down in physical efficiency on account of some temporary causes. The Army at the present time was evidently unpopular among the recruits, for there was a large number of deserters. Very early in the service, recruits showed their dislike for the conditions and discomfort to which they were subjected, and very shortly after joining the colours many of them concluded that they were better off out of the service. The question of the barracks was a very important one, and so was the place in which they took recruits to be examined. If hon. Members could only see the dirty and uncomfortable conditions under which the examination of recruits was carried out at Wellington Barracks they might well exclaim, "Abandon hope all ye who enter here." Another matter of importance was the withholding from the recruits the messing allowance giving to the ordinary soldier. If there was one class of persons more than another who required to be fed up it was the recruit with no stamina, who was plunged into trying surroundings which were a great strain upon his brain and body, and under the stress of which he was bound to run down and deteriorate unless he was well fed. He hoped his hon. friend would continue to bring this question before the House until he got the very reasonable concession that the recruit should be as well or even better fed than the regular soldier. They wanted to make the service a little more attractive, and something would have to be done to make it more popular if they wished to draw the unskilled labourer into the Army. They should improve the conditions of the recruits and carry out the very sensible advice of his hon. friend by giving the recruit that amount of good nourishment which would enable him to efficiently carry on his work.
  MR. WINSTON CHURCHILLsaid that he heard with profound regret the speech of the Leader of the Opposition last night. Ho could not help thinking
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  that some of the references of the right hon. Gentleman to the work of the War Office Reconstitution Committee were couched in language which was unduly hard, and might almost be considered ungracious. This Committee was, after all, composed of very distinguished men, and they had been carrying out a task surrounded with very great difficulties, and they had done that task with courage not only of thought but of action. Therefore he thought the Leader of the Opposition, who he was glad to see in his place, was rather severe in his comments upon the manner in which the Committee had discharged their duties. After all, there were other things in the world besides the manner in which things were done, and although the procedure of the Committee might have been unusual and unprecedented and their tone a little peremptory, that ought not to diminish the value of their Report and of the services they had rendered in the eyes of the public. It must be remembered that when the Committee was appointed they had had three years of Army administration by the present Secretary for India. The House would remember what those three years brought forth. In the first year, when this great scheme was produced with a flourish of trumpets it was hailed, like every scheme of Army reform was hailed, with applause and rapture by the daily newspapers. It was quite true that the question was dealt with in this House, but the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for India, by his Parliamentary skill and the support he received, was able to carry all before him the first year. But when the second year came round it was found that the scheme did not provide the men and there were no signs of the men being forthcoming. The conditions of enlistment were altered and the pay of the soldier was substantially raised, and both those expedients had only one object and that was to get more men. It was thought that they would get more men by asking them to serve for only three years, but all those expedients failed; at the end of the second year the failure of the scheme was apparent. The House knew perfectly well how they got through the third year. The Army debates were a little more animated than this one, and he might safely predict that the right hon.

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  Gentleman who now represented the War Office would not be exposed to so much criticism from all quarters as his predecessor was. He did not put the whole responsibility of those three years upon that right hon. Gentleman. The Cabinet were responsible with him, and the Prime Minister was absolutely as responsible as he was. He noticed that the Prime Minister was now on the side of Army reform. He made a speech in which he said that they did not want a large Regular Army for home defence, and after this he published a second Report which was written in strong terms of censure of all that had been done during the last three years. One would almost have thought that he had had nothing to do with it, but there was no one more formidable than the right hon. Gentleman himself, and there was not a single item in the whole Army administration in the three last years which the right hon. Gentleman had not made it his business to defend and extol. What was the condition of the Army at the end of those three years? They all knew that its cost was nearly £29,000,000, an increase of a most striking character with which the House was quite familiar. The Secretary for War was glad last night to be able to boast of a small reduction this year in the normal expenditure, but as a matter of fact it was a small reduction on the highest year's expenditure known. The hon. Member for Manchester had shown how illusory some of the reductions were and how gloomy were the prospects for the future.
  The Army Corps scheme had been found by the Committee to be absolutely unsuited to the needs of the country, and the Army Corps themselves were officially found to be non-existent. The Report of the Committee stated that they saw no object in attempting to organise additional Army Corps which in no reasonably probable circumstances would be required, or used as such, if they existed otherwise than on paper. He remembered a certain White Paper issued last year which showed three Army Corps completely equipped for war and a fourth to be ready on 1st April. Now they learnt from the Reconstitution Committee's Report that these Army Corps never existed except on the White Paper. It was also found that the recruiting was
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  quite inadequate to the number of battalions for that scheme, and also for the right hon. Gentleman's scheme of which they knew so little. It was quite clear that the increase of pay and the altered conditions in the Army, though costly to the nation, had not tapped any new sources for recruiting, while they had injured recruiting for the Guards when it was desired to increase the Guards battalions. He ventured to point out last year that although a bounty of £3 per head had been paid to the Militia, involving an expenditure of £300,000 a year, the force was smaller than before, and that to all intents and purposes this amount had been expended by the taxpayer for no return whatever. The right hon. Gentleman went to Manchester and said the Militia were being murdered. If it took £300,000 a year to murder them it was the most expensive act of homicide on record. He remembered that the Prime Minister alluded to the great Militia Reserve. That Reserve had been practically non-existent, and now his right hon. friend came down to the House and said this experiment was undesirable, and that it would be discontinued. The House had heard the sorrowful tale of the Volunteers, who were to be reduced until they reached 250,000, but who had now sunk to about 240,000. He thought the House and the country ought to realise that the British Army was at the present time in a very unsatisfactory and even alarming condition. He welcomed the admission the Secretary of State had the courage to make last night to that effect, but whatever the condition of the Army at present it was threatened with much greater danger and difficulty in the immediate future. How would the reliefs for India be provided, if the new short service men would not undertake to extend their term? It was in the face of these conditions that Lord Esher's Committee was hurriedly called together and set upon its course of work. In considering the Report of that Committee hon. Members should bear in mind these circumstances.
  It was very difficult for private Members to form a just and well-considered opinion upon a large constructive scheme of reform. Difficulties

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  could be pointed out in the working of any scheme; it was easy to show where there had been failures and miscalculations, and they must be able to indicate the direction in which they ought to move to repair these miscalculations, but it was hardly in their power to give an authoritative opinion on a great new scheme. He confessed that he was favourably predisposed towards the Report of the Committee, because it was encouraging for what it condemned, what it left untouched, and what it provided. It condemned the whole system of Army organisation and War Office control, and in condemning that system it bore out much that had been said by hon. Members on both sides of the House It cleared the ground by consigning to the limbo of the past all the old costly apparatus of extravagance and inefficiency against which they had so long inveighed. There was nothing in the Report about the size and cost of the Army. That was outside the province of the Committee altogether. That was a matter on which hon. Members would have much to say. There was nothing in the scheme, so far as he was able to understand, to prevent large reductions both of men and money. The Committee had nothing to do with the organisation of the Army, and they did not attempt to regulate recruiting, or the periods of service, or the way in which the reliefs for foreign service were to be conducted. All that was in the province of the right hon. Gentleman. It was quite true that the Committee assumed that the linked battalion system would be abolished, and in his view that was a wise and salutary assumption. He agreed with his right hon. friend the Member for the Forest of Dean that they would never be able to make large reductions in the cost of the Army unless they did away with the idea that they must have unnecessary battalions at home for every battalion their Empire abroad called upon them to keep. The Committee had left all these questions untouched, but they provided in time of peace a much more harmonious system of governing those troops which the House of Commons might think it necessary to keep in this country. He believed it was a more efficient and rational system for checking the expenditure of the money which this House was pleased to vote.
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  He did not pretend to criticise this Report. It was quite impossible that any great scheme of reform could command agreement in every detail. It would be quite easy to find lots of subjects for criticism and censure in it if one were so disposed. He thought that at this stage they should take the Report as a whole. For his part he should require to be very carefully reassured that the position of the Secretary of State for War, under the new arrangements, was not in any way impaired, because that Minister was the supreme authority and civilian representative in this House. He was sure that the House as a whole and the country would be desirous that the Government should move forward in the direction indicated in this Report. He was perfectly ready to admit that technically the Government wore not committed to the adoption of this Report en bloc, but he submitted that they were morally.
  The Secretary of State for War made it pretty plain in his speech yesterday that if the scheme of reform now put forward were shelved or mutilated beyond recognition it would be very unlikely that he would continue to be responsible for the administration of the Army. He hoped he was not misinterpreting his right hon. friend. Most of all were the Government committed by the fact that they had already taken considerable steps to carry out the recommendations. The first step had involved the summary dismissal of some of the most important officers of the Army. Though he differed from the late Secretary for War on a great many points, he admitted that the right hon. Gentleman made many very excellent appointments, particularly at the War Office. Of all the appointments which the right hon. Gentleman made he supposed the best from the point of view of the Army were those of Sir W. Nicholson and Sir Ian Hamilton. He regretted, however, that it had been necessary to remove from their positions distinguished officers who could not be said to have been in any way connected with the old régime at the War Office. But if they were prepared to support the scheme as a whole, they ought to be ready to accept some things they did not like as well as those they liked. The dismissal of these officers, and others much humbler, pledged

  511
  the Government to go on with their scheme, for it was obvious that their removal should not end in nothing being done. It could not be said that this was to be considered a tentative proceeding, and that the scheme could be put aside. To back out after having dismissed these men would be like what had been seen in a greater matter in which the Cabinet had been completely altered and transformed, and then it was said that there was no intention to revert to protection. Men could not be used like pawns in that way. He asked the Secretary for War and the Government to consider what would be the effect on the Army if it were shown that they had made a clean sweep of the most distinguished soldiers in the Army in a spirit of levity, without any real purpose lying behind such action. He knew that the Army was not at all adverse to this new scheme of reform, and many welcomed the arrival of the right hon. Gentleman at the War Office, not only for his own sake, but for the sake of the change. But, if a feeling of doubt prevailed in the Army through the removal of officers from their offices, great risk would be run of making the Army less confident in the honesty of the administration, and especially if it could be shown that generals were dismissed to tide over the exigencies of a debate on the Address, and in order to soothe the susceptibilities of a colleague in the Cabinet. Lord Roberts and Lord Wolseley had resigned their commands in bitterness and disgust, and two Secretaries of State, distinguished politicians, had served at the War Office during the same time. The record of neither Minister had greatly enhanced the position which the Government occupied in the eyes of the country, but both these gentlemen had been promoted to higher office. One was at present Secretary of State for India, and the other had succeeded the Duke of Devonshire as Leader in the House of Lords. This great disparity of treatment between the soldiers and civilians was noted by the Army. Of all men alive the Secretary for India should be the last person to interfere now in the direction of military affairs. It would be extremely undignified, and ungenerous, and improper, if he were to allow himself to be drawn into opposing the necessary steps for the reorganisation
  512
  of the Army that might be taken by his successor; and he was certain that so far from the Secretary for India prejudicing the cause of reform, by any action he might take, he would only strengthen the demand for reform in the country, and draw upon himself an unpopularity which he would gladly spare him.
  Though the Estimates which they were called upon to consider were described as interim, they were real Estimates all the same, amounting to £29,000,000. He understood it was not possible to hang up the Army, and cut off expenditure until the new scheme was ready, and he was not disposed to quibble and cavil at all the inconsistencies and novelties which these Estimates contained; but they embodied the same objections which might be urged against the late Estimates. Unless the Secretary for War satisfied the House that he meant to make a substantial reduction, both in men and money, from what the right hon. Gentleman called the normal cost, he at any rate would give his votes in Committee of Supply in favour of the principle of those reductions. He had no wish to embarrass the right hon. Gentleman in any way. The hon. Member for Manchester seemed to think he was desirious of embarassing the right hon. Gentleman. [Mr. PEEL: I am sure of it.] The hon. Member no doubt knew more about his motives than he himself did; but they desired, if possible, to support the right hon. Gentleman, and in so far as he moved forward in the direction of this scheme no lack of Party feeling would prevent him from giving the right hon. Gentleman the necessary support.
  *MAJOR JAMESONsaid he might congratulate the hon. Member for Oldham that he had taken several hon. and right hon. Gentlemen to task for their adverse criticisms of the War Office. The hon. Member for Oldham told the House that it was very easy to criticise and very easy to destroy. He did not think any Member of the House had had an easier time of it during the last year, in which he had lived on criticisms. The hon. Member for Oldham complained of the late War Minister, and of the way in which he had carried on the affairs of the Army for the past three years. He defied the hon. Member for Oldham, or anybody else, to

  513
  have succeeded with a Commander-in-Chief round his neck. [An HON. MEMBER on the MINISTERIAL Benches: Oh, oh!] He had a right to his opinion on this subject, even though he was not a Yeoman. The best step which had been taken was the quick way in which these reforms had been carried out by the Government. The best thing that had happened to the Service was the disappearance of the Commander-in-Chief, and nothing had pleased him more than the removal of Sir Ian Hamilton. Six months ago a proposal was made by the Commander-in-Chief and Sir Ian Hamilton which practically amounted to the abolition of cavalry altogether. These generals took away the lances from the Lancers, and the swords from the Hussars. He supposed that Sir Ian Hamilton was a Highlander, and the suggestion about the lances and the swords was about as sensible as if this Highlander had ordered all the Cavalry to ride in kilts. Nothing more foolish had ever been done by a Commander-in-Chief at the instigation of to do away with an esprit de corps in the Cavalry. He maintained that any men would take an enormous responsibility who went against the Report of that Committee, or threw any obstacle in the way of those who desired to carry it out. For the first time since he had been in the world the Army was going to get a chance of reconstruction, and the War Office was going to put it into a workmanlike condition.
  He cordially agreed with the hon. Member for Mid Essex in what he said as to the shameful way in which changes had been made during the last two years. The khaki craze was the most senseless piece of business that he had ever known. Because the Boers fought gallantly in khaki and slouch hats was no reason for putting our soldiers into the same uniform. On a previous occasion he had pointed out that matter, and had also pointed out that lie supposed if the Zulus had beaten us in earlier times we should have put our soldiers into feathers and paint. The doing away with old badges and old regimental ideals was one of the saddest things he could conceive, although possibly hon. Gentlemen opposite who had not not served in a distinguished corps did not understand the esprit de corps which
  514
  existed in these old regiments. He would like to see a different term of service for the Indian Army to that of the Home Army, and he hoped that this matter would be considered by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War, and that the service Members of the House would assist the right hon. Gentleman in carrying out the recommendations of the Reconstitution Committee. He agreed that those recommendations should be carried out as nearly as possible en bloc and that it would be a great misfortune if they were not, and he cared not what outside criticism the hon. Member for Oldham felt called upon to make, so long as he stuck to the text that the War Office must see that the recommendations of the Committee were carried out. He desired to call attention also to the great dissatisfaction among the Reserve officers with regard to the way in which they were treated at the time of the late war. The Service Committee of the House of Commons were of the opinion that if a premium was to be be put upon those who had retired with a pension, and not upon those who had retired with a gratuity. He himself believed that officers should be retired on a pension, because then they could be laid hold of by the authorities in case of an emergency, and could always be found, but, as a matter of fact, so far as he could see, the officer who retired with a gratuity always held a much better position than his brother in arms who retired on a pension. He hoped all the service Members of the House would stand or fall by the recommendations of the Committee. When the late Secretary for War was so strongly attacked—and those who attacked him forgot that his action, after all, was hampered by the outcome of years and years of the maddest projects that were ever placed before the House—he recognised the almost herculean task of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War, and congratulated him upon the fact that not only had the Committee come nearly to the end of its labours, but he congratulated the right hon. Gentleman and the Government on their pluck in acting with such promptitude and vigour on the Report of the War Office Reconstitution Committee.
  *MAJOR SEELYsaid he wished to say a word in reply to the extraordinary attack made by the hon. and gallant Member opposite on the most distinguished living soldier we had, who could not defend himself in this House, and who was moreover a countryman of the hon. and gallant Member's. The hon. Member for Oldham had been explaining to the House that certain provisions which had been introduced by the late Secretary of State for War had not had the desired result, and was pointing out that the late Secretary of State for War had not been entirely successful. Now everbody realised how much the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for India hid done for the Army, although some differed from him profoundly on certain great tendencies of military rule, but everybody realised how much he had done for the Army more than his predecessors. But believing that, as they did, what could they say of the conduct of the hon. and gallant Gentleman whose complaint was that if the late Secretary of State had not done any good to the Army, could he be expected to do it with the burden of the late Commander-in-Chief round his neck. He did not believe that there was a single Member of this House who would support the hon. and gallant Member in attacking distinguished soldiers who had no opportunity of defending themselves.
  MR. O'MARAsaid that he had gone into the Estimates very carefully and he was sorry that stress had not been laid upon the fact that the large reductions that the Secretary of State for war had referred to on the previous evening were most of them effected on war charges and that no saving had been made on the normal charges of the Estimates. The growth of the Estimates during the last few years was appalling and deserved the attention of the House. In 1895 and 1896 the whole amount was only £18,000,000. In 1898 and 1899 they were some £20,000,000. This increase of about 30 per cent, in the Army Estimates carrying the same number of men, was a most extraordinary thins; and required some consideration. There was another point. Why was it that although Estimates were passed every year for a certain establishment the numbers of the Army
  516
  never came up to the establishment provided for? The Volunteers, for instance were 100,000 below the establishment, and he would like to know what was done with the money which was provided for that 100,000 men who did not exist. Other branches of the service were also considerably under strength, and it was therefore necessary to ask when the Estimates were being considered whether there would be any saving under this head. Another point deserving of the attention of the House was the amount of the contributions made by the Colonies towards the upkeep of the Army, and he would like to see a Return, similar to that made in the case of the Navy, made in connection with the Army in this regard. The Army being kept for important purposes it was only just and right that all parts of the Empire should contribute towards its maintenance, either in proportion to its population or its wealth. Ireland was largely over-taxed according to the findings of the Financial Relations Committer, but it was pointed out that in the expenditure made in Ireland on account of the Army there was in some degree a set-off for that over-taxation, but although that was said with regard to Ireland he noticed similar expenditure was made in Canada, Halifax Nova Scotia, and other places which did not pay a single shilling towards the maintenance of the troops stationed there. Under the last Military Works Act an expenditure of £5,000,000 was authorised, and the Secretary of State in reply to a Question had expressed Jus inability to state how much of that sum would be spent this year. It was not fair to the House that Estimates should be brought forward from which four or five millions sterling were left completely out of account, and in view of the unsatisfactory nature of the replies he had received he should oppose these Estimates to the fullest extent allowed by the Rules of the House.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMONDsupported the views expressed by the hon. Member for the College Green Division of Dublin with regard to Army contracts in Ireland. The complaints of the hon. Member were well founded, and in many quarters a feeling of injustice obtained. His hon. friend, representing

  517
  an industrial constituency, had made a very reasonable speech, and it was very unfair that the Secretary of State for War should not have vouchsafed the least reply. If the right hon. Gentleman maintained that attitude, it would be taken as an indication of his determination not to listen to any complaints, no matter how reasonable, put forward by the Nationalist Members. One case referred to by his hon. friend related to Belfast, and surely in a matter affecting his own constituency the right hon. Gentleman might have been expected to make a statement.
  *MR. SPEAKERreminded the hon. Member that the right hon. Gentleman had no right of reply in the present debate; but that he would have opportunities in Committee of answering any questions that might have been raised.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMONDsaid he was aware that technically the right hon. Gentleman had exhausted his right to speak, but it was usual in such circumstances for Ministers, by leave of the House, to indicate that the matter which had been brought forward would receive their attention. In any case, another representative of the War Office might have spoken.
  With regard to the Estimates themselves he desired to know why no provision whatever was made for the cost of the Somaliland expedition during the ensuing financial year. The House was in the extraordinary position of knowing that a war upon a considerable scale, and under circumstances of great difficulty, was being carried on, and that not a farthing had been placed on the Estimates in respect thereof. That was surely not the way in which the business of the country ought to be conducted. It was doubtless true that the exact cost could not be foretold, but it was bound to be considerable, and some provision ought to have been made to meet it. No real explanation had yet been given of why the war was being waged at all, although it had been going on for over three years. He hoped, but did not expect, that the absence of provision meant that the campaign was to be dropped. He quite understood the feeling that having
  518
  suffered reverses this country was bound to go on with the war until some striking success had been achieved. Once hostilities were commenced it was difficult to bring them to a close, but in the interests of the taxpayers, particularly in Ireland, it was extremely desirable that this fruitless strife should be ended at once. If they wanted to garrison the sea-coast districts they might do it with comparatively little cost, but this idea under which General Egerton was pushing on indefinitely into the heart of this practically unknown and difficult country was a plan of campaign which could not possibly have a satisfactory ending, and was sure to lead to renewed applications for large sums of money. He was astonished at the conduct of those who were supposed to be the legitimate Opposition in this House upon this question, for he considered that the Front Opposition Bench should have insisted upon having some explanation of this campaign in Somaliland. What would have happened if a Liberal Government had been in power carrying on an aimless and endless campaign in Africa? What would the Conservative Opposition have done? They would have made this a question upon which the Government would have been pressed very hard to give an answer. Instead of the present Opposition objecting to this wholesale wasting of life and treasure, it was left for himself and a few private Members to object. He took the same attitude upon these Estimates as he did upon the Navy Estimates. It was a matter of indifference to him how much the people of this country considered it right to spend upon the Army, but if they were satisfied to squander the taxes of this country in that manner they should suffer alone. It was an outrage, a scandal, and a piece of diabolical injustice that the taxpayers of Ireland should be called upon to contribute directly or indirectly a single farthing towards the prosecution of this campaign. There was scarcely an hon. Member opposite who could give an intelligent explanation of why this campaign had been undertaken, and that being so it was absurd to assume that the people of Ireland would be satisfied with this enormous expenditure. He protested against it from the point of view of the Irish taxpayer. Ireland was

  519
  in a state of extreme poverty, and her industries had gone to rack and ruin, and yet they were asked to vote these enormous sums of money. The hon. Member for Exeter asked the other day for a Return of the expenditure on the Army for the last four years, and he was told that it amounted to close upon £350,000,000 sterling. That was the sum which had been spent upon matters connected with the Army and warlike operations during the past four years, for which they would never get any return. That ought to be sufficient to make hon. Members pause long and deeply before they sanctioned any more expenditure. When they got into Committee he would take every legitimate opportunity of protesting against this system of conducting the Army Estimates. What was the good of the Secretary of State for War making a virtue of the fact that he was proposing a decrease in the Army Estimates? It was easy to show a decrease when they did not put upon the Estimates expenditure which they knew they would have to meet. It would be found before the end of the next financial year that this campaign for nothing, and leading nowhere, in Somaliland would have to be provided for. He hoped a division would be taken, if only as a protest against the system of not putting upon the Army Estimates large sums
  which the Government knew would have to be spent in the coming year.
  MR. FIELDthought the House was entitled to a reply from some official quarter to some of the criticisms made upon this Vote. It was astonishing that such a large sum of money was going to be voted—
  *MR. SPEAKER: There is no money being voted now and that question will come on afterwards. The question before the House now is that I leave the chair.
  MR. FIELDsaid they had had no reply from the right hon. Gentleman in reference to the criticisms which had been made.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: The hon. Member must know that I cannot speak again in this debate.
  MR. FIELDsaid they were bound to bring these matters forward, and if an explanation could not be given now he hoped some reply would be made when the opportunity presented itself.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 255; Noes, 153. (Division List No. 45.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Butcher, John George

  Davenport, William Bromley

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Campbell, Rt Hn J A (Glasgow

  Denny, Colonel

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Campbell, J H M (Dublin Univ.

  Dewar, Sir T R (Tower Hamlets

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Arnold-Forster, Rt Hn Hugh O.

  Cavendish, VCW. (Derbyshire

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Arrol, Sir William

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Chamberlain, Rt Hon J A (Worc

  Dorington, Rt Hon Sir John E.

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Chapman, Edward

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Balcarres, Lord

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W(Leeds

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Dyke, Rt Hon Sir William Hart

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Beach,Rt Hn Sir Michael Hicks

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Colomb,Sir John Charles Ready

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Bhownaggree, Sir M.M.

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J (Manc'r

  Bignold, Arthur

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Bigwood, James

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Bowles, Lt.-Col H F (Middlesex

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Fison, Frederick William

  Brassey, Albert

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Bull, William James

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S. W.)

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Fyler, John Arthur

  Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Sackville, Col S G Stopford

  Garfit, William

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  Maclver, David (Liverpool)

  Samuel, Sir H. S. (Limehouse)

  Gordon, Hon J E (Elgin &Nairn

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Gordon, J (Londonderry, S.)

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Saunderson, Rt. Hn Col Edw J.

  Gore, Hn. S. F.Ormsby-(Linc

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Malcolm, Ian

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Greene, Henry D (Shrewsbury)

  Maxwell,Rt Hn Sir H E (Wigt'n

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Groves, James Grimble

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Smith, Abel H.(Hertford,East)

  Hamilton,Marq.of(L'nd'nderry

  Milner, Rt Hun. Sir Fred'rick G

  Smith H C (North'mb.Tyneside

  Hardy, L (Kent, Ashford)

  Mitchell, Edw(Fermanagh, N.)

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Harris,F. Leverton (Tynem'th)

  Montagu, Hon J Scott (Hants)

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.

  Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Moore, William

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Morgan David J (Walthamstow

  Stock, James Henry

  Heath, James (Staffords., N.W.

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Henderson,Sir A. (Stafford, W.

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Stroyan, John

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Mount, William Arthur

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Talbot, Rt,Hn.J.G(OxfdUniv.

  Hope, J F(Sheffield,Brightside

  Murray,Rt.Hn.A Graham(Bute

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Horner, Frederick William

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Howard, J (Midd.,Tottenham

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

  Myers, William Henry

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Newdegate, Francis A. N.

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M,

  Hunt, Rowland

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.)

  O'Neill, Hon Robert Torrens

  Tuff, Charles

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Peel, Hn.Wm.Robert Wellesley

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Valentia, Viscount

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Percy, Earl

  Vincent,Col. Sir C.E.H(Sheff'ld

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Kenyon, Hon.Geo.T.(Denbighs

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Walrond, R.Hn.Sir William H.

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Kerr, John

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Wharton, Rt Hon John Lloyd

  Kimber, Henry

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Whiteley, H (Ashton and. Lyne

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.- Col. Edward

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Lambton Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Purvis, Robert

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Randles, John S.

  Wilson,A. Stanley(York, E. R.)

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Lawrence, Sir Jos. (Monmouth)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H. (Yorks

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Renwick, George

  Wodehouse, Rt Hn E R (Bath)

  Lawson, Jn. G. (Yorks., N. R.)

  Ridley, Hon M W(Stalybridge

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham)

  Ridley,S.Forde (Bethnal Green

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Rigg, Richard

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES,—Sir

  Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

  Rothschild, Hon Lionel Walter

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Bristol, S.)

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

  Lowe, Francis William

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Russell, T. W.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork N. E.)

  Black, Alexander William

  Caldwell, James

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Boland, John

  Cameron, Robert

  Allen, Charles P.

  Brigg, John

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Ambrose, Robert

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Bell, Richard

  Burns, John

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  522

  523

  Cremer, William Randal

  Kearley, Hudson B.

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Crooks, William

  Kilbride, Denis

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Cullinan, J.

  Kitson, Sir James

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Labouchere, Henry

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Langley, Batty

  Price, Robert John

  Delany, William

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Priestley, Arthur

  Devlin,CharlesRamsay(Galway

  Leese, SirJoseph F (Accrington

  Rea, Russell

  Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

  Leng, Sir John

  Redmond, John E. (Waterfowl)

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Levy, Maurice

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Lloyd-George, David

  Roche, John

  Dobbie, Joseph

  Lough, Thomas

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Lundon, W.

  Rose, Charles Day

  Doogan, P. C.

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Macnamara,Dr. Thomas J.

  Shackleton, David James

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Elibank, Master of

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Ellice,Capt EC(S. Andrw'sBghs

  M'Crae, George

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Emmott, Alfred

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Sheehy, David

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  M'Kean, John

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Farrell, James Patrick

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Fenwick, Charles

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Ffrench, Peter

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Field, William

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Spencer, Rt Hn C R (Northants

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Sullivan, Donal

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Mooney, John J.

  Taylor, Theodore C (Radcliffe)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen,E.)

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Thomas, Sir A (Glamorgan, E.)

  Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.

  Morley,Rt.Hon.John(Montrose

  Thomas David Alfred (Merthyr

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Murphy, John

  Tomkinson, James

  Gladstone,Rt Hn Herbert John

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Toulmin, George

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Ure, Alexander

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Norman, Henry

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

  Hammond, John

  O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  O'Brien, Kendal(TipperaryMid

  Weir, James Galloway

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Healy, Timothy Michael

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  O'Connor,James (Wicklow, W)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk Mid.

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  O'Doherty, William

  Young, Samuel

  Hope, John Deans (Fife,West)

  O'Donnell, T. Kerry, W.)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Horniman, Frederick John

  O'Dowd, John

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  O'Kelly, James(Roscommon,N)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  O'Malley, William

  Captain Norton and Mr. Charles Hobhouse.

  Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea

  O'Mara, James

  JonesWilliam (Carnarvonshire)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Joyce, Michael

  Parrott, William

  Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.

  SUPPLY.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]

  ARMY ESTIMATES, 1904–
  And, it being after half-past Seven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

EVENING SITTING.

  PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS (MARINERS' VOTES).
  SIR ELLIOTT LEES: The subject which I am bringing before the House is a grievance which affects a
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  great number of our citizens, but I should hardly have ventured to ask the attention of the House to it did I not believe that I can suggest a practical, though only partial remedy. So that to-night I am not merely asking the House to express the sympathy which I think all Members will feel with the disability of the bulk of the seafaring men of this country to exercise their franchise, but I hope to explain to the House a scheme by which that disability may be in many cases removed. I say that I think we all feel sympathy with men who may be on the register for the best part of their lives without ever having the opportunity, by their votes, of influencing the Government of their country. The vast majority of respectable Englishmen value very highly the power and responsibility of shaping

  525
  the policy of the nation. The act of voting at an election brings home to them the fact that they belong to a self-governing nation, and in most cases (I am sorry I cannot say in all) they acquiesce readily enough in the decision of the majority, and loyally obey laws which they may themselves disapprove, knowing full well that if they can persuade the majority of their countrymen to their views these laws will be altered. The franchise is not only a great educator but also a great peacemaker. But it seems rather a mockery to grant by law a share in the Government of the country and the Empire to a large class of men under circumstances which render it certain that only a very small fraction of their numbers can avail themselves of their rights, and to do nothing by law to deal with their exceptional case. There is already legislation to meet other exceptional cases—blind, illiterates, and Jews. Taking the Board of Trade figures for 1901, the latest I can get, the total number of seamen employed in this country was 186,636, and the total number of fishermen 19,502, making a total of 206,138. Deducting 33,610 Lascars and 32,614 aliens, the figure was reduced to 139,914, which, together with 114,000 men serving in the Royal Navy and Marines, made a total of 254,000 men. It is impossible to say what proportion of these men are on the register; but if it is taken at I only one in five, that represents a constituency of over 50,000 men.
  In Norway there is a law of the 5th June, 1897 (amended 24th February, 1900 and 9th May, 1903) enabling Parliamentary electors, absent from the kingdom in lawful pursuits, to record their votes in writing either before departure or from a foreign place. This law has been passed in the interests of the workers in the shipping industry. This Act is meant to make the franchise effective for electors abroad, chiefly in respect of general elections, which occur regularly every three years. Dissolutions are not legal. At election time (general or by-election) lists of all electors are published by Government officials. The agents of the candidates send voting papers (and other election literature if they choose) to as many electors as they think fit; but each elector may procure a voting paper
  526
  independently. On Norwegian ships abroad the masters collect the (sealed) voting papers of those on board who are electors and send these papers to the returning officer in Norway. Other electors abroad hand their papers to a Consul for forwarding. Voting before departure from Norway is effected by handing the sealed voting paper and legitimation paper to a Notary Public, who forwards the papers to the returning officer. For seamen the Superintendent of a Mercantile Marine Office fulfils this Notarial function.
  It is hardly necessary, I think, to rake up the time of the House by pointing out the virtues of the class on whose behalf I am pleading, and demonstrating the good qualities of our officers and seamen whether in the Navy or in the mercantile marine. We differ about many things, but I can hardly imagine there are two opinions in this House as to the splendid qualities of our naval officers or our man-o'-wars men. Those hon. Members who have travelled will probably agree that it would be difficult to speak too highly of the character the intelligence, and the patriotism of the officers of the merchant service of this country. British seamen may have their faults, like other classes of the community who are not exposed to the same temptations, but they have been for generations the backbone of our naval and commercial supremacy, and at least we may trust them to give, manly vote. There is no cure, as many a landsman learned three years ago in South Africa, for the cynicism and lack of enthusiasm which are the curse of modern civilisation, like that of daily contact with danger, and daily comradeship with one's fellow men in times of hardship and peril, and in this sense the seaman is always on active service when he is afloat. And I would remind the House that this proposal only affects those who are on the register, and therefore entitled to vote already, were it physically possible for them to do so, and that the seamen who are on the register are probably the best of their class, and among the most deserving citizens of the community. I regret to say that I have not been able to devise any scheme by which sailors some weeks'

  527
  or months' voyage distant from this country could record their votes. Any suggestion of proxy voting would, I fear be scouted by the House at the present day I should not like to say that it was beyond the wit of man to discover a means whereby a sailor could vote at a Consulate, and have his vote telegraphed home; we might indeed, in a Redistribution Act, allot special representatives to sailors on long voyages, and a list of candidates could be telegraphed to each Consulate and each colonial port, from which list seamen who could show a certificate that they were on the register at home might by ballot select their representatives. But though I will not say that such a scheme is beyond the wit of man, I must admit that it has proved beyond the wit of this particular man who is addressing the House at this particular moment—and although I regret that many of the best and the most deserving of their class are at present necessarily omitted from the plan I am going to explain to the House, still I do feel that a man who is many weeks distant from our shores must to a great extent be out of touch with home politics and home feeling for the time, and to that extent not so well qualified to give a right decision as those who are constantly in touch with all that is taking place here. Now there are a very large number of sea-faring men who are, or at any rate who can be if they like, constantly in touch with affairs in this country, men in the Channel trade, and in the Irish Channel trade, men in the North Sea trade, men in the North Atlantic trade, men in the Bay of Biscay trade, men in the coasting trade, and fisherman. Most of these men are constantly backwards and forwards from English ports, are constantly in touch with home opinion, and can, if they like, keep themselves nearly as well posted in what is going on here as that large class of English electors who rely almost entirely upon the weekly newspapers for their information. Now many of these men, and also a proportion of long-voyage men, will be on shore for a few days or a few weeks, perhaps, during election time, whether the election be a general, or a by-election affecting the constituency in which they have a vote.
  528
  They may be deeply interested in the questions or the candidates before the constituency, and fully acquainted with all the pros and cons, and yet they may be obliged to go to sea a few days before the poll takes place. Can we not at any rate do something to remedy this grievance?
  I venture to suggest that a means can easily be found for enabling all mariners who are in port between the issue of the writ and the day of the poll, to exercise their votes in advance without any proxy or fantastic voting, simply by going in person to the returning officer and personally recording their votes. I attach importance to the man personally recording his vote. We ought to insist on a little personal exertion. I suppose three things are essential in any scheme which could receive the practical legislative assent of the House, and not merely its benevolent but theoretical approval. Firstly, that the secrecy of the vote should be maintained. Secondly, that there should be careful provision against the possibility of fraud in the counting of the votes. Thirdly, that where a scrutiny is judicially ordered, and votes have to be struck off, there shall be proper means of identifying any vote which is ordered to be struck off. I venture to think that the plan I propose would fulfil all three conditions. I will try, as briefly and lucidly as I can, to explain it to the House if the House will permit me to do so. In nearly all cases it is known who the candidates will be before the writ is issued. After the writ was issued, I would require the returning officer to fix an hour at which he would daily be at his office and could receive mariners' votes. At that hour any mariner wishing to vote could attend, and give his number on the register, and claim to vote—I think he should be accompanied by another householder, not a mariner, who would by declaration or oath vouch for his identity. He would also make a declaration that he would be at sea on the day of the poll. As, before the nomination, there would be no printed ballot papers with names of candidates, the returning officer would then, as in the case of a blind or illiterate elector, or a Jew on Saturday, take the voter aside and ask him for whom he voted, and

  529
  would then in his own, the returning officer's, hand write down the name of the candidate chosen on the lower half of the voting paper, would let the voter see that it was correct, and then seal it up; while on the upper half of the voting paper he would write the number on the register of the elector. The votes would be produced at the counting, still sealed, but showing on the upper part the numbers on the register, which might be inspected by the candidates and their agents, as a precaution, of course, against personation. When the agents were satisfied, the register numbers would be concealed by sealing down the upper part of the voting paper, the votes would be mixed up again, and the lower halves of the voting papers unsealed, showing the names of the candidates for whom the votes had been cast. Any of these names which were those of duly nominated candidates would then be added to their score, whilst any names which were not those of duly nominated candidates would not be counted, and the papers containing them would be destroyed. The valid papers containing the names of duly nominated candidates would be kept with the other ballot papers; and, in the event of a scrutiny, the register numbers could be unsealed and examined and votes illegally given could be identified and struck off. Except in the case of a scrutiny there would be no means of identifying the voters, as the names written on them would not be in the handwriting of the elector, but of the returning officer. Of course the returning officer knows which way the man votes, but so he does in the case of a blind voter, an illiterate voter, or a strict Jew when the poll takes place on a Saturday. For each of these, the blind, the illiterate, and the Jew, an exceptional provision has been made in the Ballot Act, in the two first cases on the grounds of physical inability to vote in the usual way, in the case of the Jew on the grounds of conscientious objection, or if you like, of religious disability. I venture to suggest that the case of the sailor is as deserving of exceptional legislation as any of the other three. I hope I have shown that secrecy can be maintained, that fraud is rendered well-nigh impossible, and that unauthorised votes can be detected and struck off in case of scrutiny. I shall perhaps be met
  530
  by the objection that the time of the returning officer will be wasted in recording votes for men who are not candidates. I do not fear that in practice there will be much of this. Surely in ninety-nine cases out of 100 it is known who the candidate will be at the time the writ is issued. I will ask the House to accept my assurance that there is no difficulty connected with the sealing and unsealing of the voting paper, a little envelope gum at each end is all that is really necessary. I could show the process to any hon. Member in a couple of minutes, but I think I had better not give a demonstration which would have the appearance of a conjuring trick in this House. What is the right hon. Baronet's Amendment? It is only the dear old wedge, whose thin end is always threatening our ancient Constitution. It is a surprise to me that it should come from the right hon. Baronet, whom I have always looked on as a progressive statesman, but as a confirmed Tory I am bound to treat the venerable bogey with respect and deference.
  In reply to the right hon. Baronet, I am not prepared to deny that if this plan turns out to be an easy and practical way of recording a vote without a personal attendance on the actual day of the poll, it say be extended to other classes than sailors. If there appear on trial to be any grave objections to it, we may be sure that it will not be so extended, but if after trial in the case of sailors, it is found to work well and to be free from objection, what harm would its extension cause? I cannot see why any special virtue attaches to a vote given between 8 a.m. and 8 p.m. on a particular day, and by my scheme I do require personal attendance upon some day between the issue of the writ and the actual polling day. There is nothing new, nothing unconstitutional, in allowing votes to be spread over several days. In the days of our fathers, or grandfathers at any rate, the poll used to last several days. And even at this day in Orkney and Shetland the poll lasts. But the right hon. Baronet need not assume that the case of sailors is so similar to that of other workmen that a privilege granted to them can be construed into a common right. With other workmen, on land, a great sacrifice

  531
  of time and money may sometimes be necessary in order to exercise the franchise, but if they are willing to make the sacrifice there is no physical obstacle to debar them from recording their vote, With the sailors, so long as they pursue their calling at all, it is certain that the vast majority of them find personal attendance on the polling day a physical impossibility. The railway guard, after all, to take an extreme case, if he likes to sacrifice his employment and to submit to fines and penalties, can contrive to record his vote in person, but not even the absolute self-surrender of Japanese patriotism would enable a sailor who was a few leagues out at sea to leave his ship and reach his polling booth. There is a distinct and definite line between a moral and a physical impossibility. How often in their lives are other workmen compelled to be absent from the poll? How many times in their lives will soldiers on the register be prevented? I do not want to weary the House with details more appropriate to the explanation of a Bill than to that of a Motion, but I have felt it necessary to enter upon a few of these details in order to show the House that a serious and practical endeavour has been made to meet and overcome the difficulties of the case. If the Government could see their way to show sympathy with the Motion by granting a Committee to consider whether the practical solution of this question were possible, I have little doubt that we could convince the Committee that the difficulties could easily be surmounted. If we can, surely we ought to give this partial measure of relief to some of our worthiest citizens. Surely a maritime nation, dependent on the sea, not only for its trade and prosperity, not only for its security and immunity from attack, but for the actual existence and freedom from starvation of four-fifths of its inhabitants, ought to give to those who make the sea their calling, who do their business in the great waters, a chance to use the right, which belongs to them as well as to their fellow-citizens, of sharing in the government of their country. I beg to move.
  MR. CATHCAET WASONsaid he felt no difficulty in rising to second the Motion. While he
  532
  cordially sympathised with it, he at the same time had considerable sympathy with the Amendments which were to be moved. As regarded mariners, and still more as regarded men engaged in the fishing industry, this was a very important question. He considered it even more important with respect to fishermen in the herring fleet than to sailors. The law in this matter, as it at present stood, favoured the rich unduly at the expense of the poor candidate. It was easy for a man to whom money was no object to make an arrangement by which a vessel should call at a particular port on polling day. He had the honour last autumn to visit Argyllshire and the St. Andrews Burghs and to see what was going on at the elections, and he could testify to the intense hardships which the fishermen underwent in order to record their votes. If hon. Members only realised the situation which occurred in constituencies where there were large bodies of fishermen the prejudice against this Resolution would be much allayed. At the St. Andrews Burghs a large number of men were compelled to go back to sea to earn their livelihood, and were, therefore, unable to record their votes on the election day. He thought it would be sufficient to allow the votes to be recorded between the day of the nomination and the day of the poll. It might be said that this was not a democratic measure, but he would point out that a similar measure had been carried out in New Zealand, and had worked there without any hitch. It went further than this Motion proposed to go, for it applied to other classes who were necessarily absent from their homes on the day of the election. He had suggested to the mover of the Motion that he might slightly alter its terms so as to include other classes. The hon. Member would then have had a fair chance of getting the Motion carried by such an overwhelming majority that there would have been no voice worth considering against it. The Bill by which the hon. Member desired to give effect to the proposal in the Motion, though in the hands of some Members, was not at present before the House. He suggested that, in order to prevent disfranchisement, any person upon making a statutory declaration before a magistrate after the the nomination of candidates of inability to attend, should be allowed to record his vote before the returning officer or such person as he might appoint.
  SIR ELLIOTT LEESasked if the hon. Member was seconding his Motion or moving an Amendment.
  *MR. MACONOCHIEasked on the point of order whether after rising to second a Motion the hon. Member could propose an Amendment.
  MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member rose to second the Motion and not to move an Amendment. Otherwise I should have called upon some other Member.
  *MR. MACONOCHIE: I am prepared to second it.
  MR. CATHCART WASONsaid he began by seconding the Motion, and he was merely endeavouring to point out that the mover had better make peace with those hon. Members who might not be disposed to support the Motion in its present form. He cordially sympathised with the proposal the hon. Member had made, but it was acknowledged that there were grave difficulties in the way of giving effect to it, and he was indicating a way of securing more support for it. The hardship complained of was equally felt by engine drivers, commercial travellers, and others. He was grateful for the opportunity of seconding the Motion, as the hardship complained of affected many of his own constituents.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House is of opinion that means should be given to Seamen and Fishermen to record their Votes at Parliamentary Elections, when by reason of their calling they will be absent at sea on the day of the poll."—(Sir Elliott Lees.)
  *MR. MACONOCHIEsaid that this was a subject of great interest in his constituency, which was one of the largest fishing communities in the world. For many years it had been felt a great hardship by the fishermen that they had been called away during an election without being able to record their votes. The matter had been frequently pressed upon his attention and that of his predecessors in the representation of East Aberdeenshire. It had been said by an hon. Member that there were
  534
  only 19,000 fishermen; but there were more than that number in Ireland alone, and in the whole of Great Britain they numbered at least 100,000. He particularly emphasised this, because he believed that greater advantage would have attended this Motion if it had been made smaller, and not so elastic. He sympathised with the other classes besides fishermen who were at present unable to record their votes, such as engine drivers and commercial travellers, but he believed fishermen had the first claim on their sympathies, as the class from whom the Navy, Naval Reserve, and merchant marine were largely recruited. The Island of Lewis alone furnished 8,000 men for the Naval Reserve, and they were as fine and loyal a body as could be found throughout the Kingdom. When his constituents, numbering thousands, were away in the autumn at the English fishing grounds they felt it to be a great hardship that no provision was made for recording their votes. He hoped the right hon. Member for Forest of Dean, and the hon. Member for Derby, who had Amendments on the Paper, would support the Motion in its present form, because there would be no difficulty hereafter in extending the privilege to other classes of workers. So far as the fishermen were concerned, as it was to them we looked for strengthening our naval defence in time of trouble, it was a small thing to give to them, in times of peace, equal rights with other citizens.
  *MR. BELLsaid he was indebted to his right hon. friend the Member for Forest of Dean for allowing him precedence for the Amendment he had placed on the Paper. That Amendment was—
  "In line 2, after the word 'fishermen,' to insert the words 'railway servants and others.' And in line 4, to leave out the words 'at sea,' and insert the words 'on duty.'"
  He fully sympathised with the object of the hon. Member who had brought forward the Motion, and his Amendment was not hostile to it. It sought simply to extend its operation to others who suffered disabilities equally with those for whom the hon. Baronet opposite had pleaded. The hon. Member referred briefly to the engine drivers who having to go on duty at a certain time, would

  535
  not be able to return early enough to record their votes. He felt sure that the hon. Member was not familiar with the whole circumstances surrounding the employment of railway servants. There railways of Great drivers, firemen, guards, and the system was that practically disfranchised.
  MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid, on a point of order, this Resolution was for the purpose of dealing with seafaring men who at present suffered under a disability; the Amendment was for another class and another purpose.
  *MR. SPEAKERsaid that on a Motion of this kind the Amendment was in order.
  *MR. BELLsaid that the hon. Member who moved the Resolution referred incidentally to the fact that it was only occasionally those who were employed on railways were unable to record their votes, and he went on to make the remark that those who wished to make a full use of the franchise were entitled to make some sacrifice of time and money. But, even if these men were desirous to sacrifice time and money for the purpose of recording their vote, it would be perfectly impossible to take 18,000 men away from their work. And even if these particular men were relieved, the relieving men would still suffer under the disability. This class of employees were adults, and the whole of them were electors in the various constituencies. In the constituency of the hon. Member who moved the Resolution there were a large number of railway servants who suffered from this disability it might be to the hon. Gentleman's disadvantage or otherwise, but that was immaterial. On the London and North Western Railway and the Great Western Railway there were a great many men who ran trains on what was called the "double home job." These men ran right through, say, to Exeter, or some equally distant town, where they rested a day, and then returned in the opposite direction. It
  536
  was obvious that these men could not return to their homes in time to record their votes. Arrangements could, be made to suit the convenience of these men in regard to voting far more easily than in the case of fishermen. His own suggestion for removing the disability under which these railway men at present suffered was, that the returning officer should be empowered to receive their votes on the day preceding the poll on production of an order from their employers to the effect that their work on the trains would take them away from their homes on the polling day itself. He claimed that if there was to be an extension of this privilege to any class, those in whose behalf he spoke were entitled to it. He believed that his sympathies with the seamen and fishermen were as extensive as those of anyone in this House or out of it. He had demonstrated that on previous occasions, when he had endeavoured to have these people included under the Workmen's Compensation Act. It had been said that seamen and fishermen who were much at sea were out of touch with the topics of the day; but those for whom he spoke were very much in touch with the topics of the day, attended meetings, talked with candidates, and only desired to have an opportunity of recording their votes before they left home with their trains. For these reasons he thought the Amendment which he had proposed ought to be acceptable to the mover and seconder of the Resolution. The hon. Member who seconded the Motion suggested that the men might bring an order signed by the magistrate to the returning officer, but that would be an impossibility in the case of 18,000 railway servants.
  *MR. LEVYseconded the Amendment. He said he was not enamoured with a desire to alter the system of election by ballot but he thought that if any change were made it would be unjust to exclude the great body of railway men. There were also men employed in the engineering trade who had similar difficulties in voting, and many workmen in London who had to leave home before the hour of polling to go long distances to work and returned after

  537
  it was too late to vote. It would be unfair in the extreme if the House legislated for one particular class of voters alone. He felt that fishermen did suffer some disadvantages, but if any alteration was made the railwaymen and others should have the same advantage as the fishermen. If railwaymen remained away from their duties to exercise the franchise on the days of election, they would disorganise the whole railway traffic of the country, whereas if fishermen remained on shore to vote probably the only result would be a slight increase in the price of fish. He had very great pleasure in seconding the Amendment of his hon. friend.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In line 2, after the word 'fishermen' to insert the words 'railway servants and others.'" (Mr. Bell.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  SIR ALBERT ROLLITsupported the Amendment. He did so not from any feeling of hostility to the Motion, but in order to secure for it a better basis of support. He had had two opportunities of forming a judgment on this question. In Hull the seamen and fishermen had been greatly disappointed on many occasions because they had been unable to return to record their votes; and he had known at any rate one case in which the result of an election had been determined in a large measure by that inability. The franchise was not only a personal right and privilege but it was a right which should be exercised in the interest of the State. While supporting the principle of the proposal he did not think they ought to underrate the difficulties which surrounded it, and that was a reason for obtaining a general instead of a class support. The extension of any privilege of this sort, however, would entirely fail of its object if accompanied by complex, dilatory, or expensive conditions, its only justification would be that the process should be simple and easy in operation. He represented a constituency largely composed of railway servants, large numbers of whom were at present prevented from exercising the franchise.
  538
  His hon. friend and others seemed to think that seamen particularly were entitled to consideration, but surely what they had to consider was more the compulsory performance of public duty which rendered absence necessary. That included the large class to which he had referred, and he was surprised to hear his hon. friend say that railway servants could leave their employment in order to vote, and defy their employers. Although he sympathised with the object of the Motion he hoped, if it was carried into practice, it would be made to include all these other workers who in the performance of their duty were practically compulsorily deprived of their right to vote.
  MR. CROMBIEsaid this was a subject in which he had always been interested. Twelve years ago he introduced a Bill to carry out the very purpose of the hon. Baronet opposite, but his Bill did not pass. His interest in the subject arose from the fact that there were many fishermen in his constituency who did him the honour of voting for him at the election, and when the election arrived and the fishermen were not there it gave him considerable trouble and he set himself the task of attempting to find a remedy. But while he was quite ready to vote for the Motion of the hon. Baronet, at the same time he fully admitted the principle of the Amendment. He saw that there were very great difficulties in the way of making a distinction for one class, but he understood at the present time policemen had some special privileges. He thought that in order to meet the case of the different classes affected there should be some relaxing of the rigidity of the present rule as to the day of the poll, which might be extended so as to allow these fishermen and railwaymen a further opportunity of exercising their right to vote. Whether the Amendment was carried or not he should vote for the Motion.
  MR. LLEWELLYN (Somersetshire, N.)said he thought that the object which hon. Members had in view could only be carried out by a careful examination before a Select Committee. There were so many difficulties surrounding this

  539
  question that the only real solution of it was to refer it to a Select Committee. What the hon. Member for Derby had said was absolutely correct and no one wished engine drivers and guards to lose their votes. He did not want a single man to lose his vote, but he saw great difficulties in the way of the application of the principle of the Motion, and he hoped that the Government would consent to refer the whole subject to a Select Committee. There was one class of seamen who had not been alluded to which he was sure the House would be sorry to forget—he referred to the class of men round the coast who acted as pilots. There was no class upon whom public safety was more dependent than the pilots. They were men who did not take long voyages, but they were at the call of all steamers coming towards our shores, and they had to go when called upon. They were not wanderers and they had homes on shore, and most of them were ratepayers, and they ought to have some consideration. He could not vote against the Amendment, because he had the greatest sympathy with the railway men in this matter. He would press upon his hon. friend who was in charge of this matter to consider whether it would not be the best plan to thoroughly thresh the subject out before a Select Committee.
  *MR. JOYCEsaid he represented a seaport, and was more or less interested in this question. For a number of years he was a seaman himself. He thought the House ought to be in full sympathy with the hon. Member who had proposed this Motion. He did not see why men who had to work hard for their living and who knew as much of what was going on in this country as those who lived on shore, should be deprived of their votes. When he was in the habit of going to sea he was as much interested in local and national questions as he was now. He should like this Motion to embrace a wider class, for in its present form it was rather narrow. He thought the pilots were a most deserving body of men, and he suggested that instead of being confined to seamen and fishermen the scope of the Motion should be extended to
  540
  those following a seafaring life. While he thought that legislation giving the rights of citizenship to seamen and fishermen should be passed, he did not think the hon. Member would be forwarding his cause if he refused to accept the Amendment of the hon. Member for Derby. Probably, if this Motion was adopted, a Select Committee would be appointed to go into the niceties of the question.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. GRANT LAWSON,)said that with regard to the suggestion made by the hon. Member for Somerset, to refer this question to a Select Committee, that was a matter upon which it was not possible for him to give an answer, and it was a question which ought to be addressed to the Prime Minister. With regard to the Amendment before the House, he was sure the hon. Member for Derby did not wish to use the claims of one class of workers to injure the claims of another class; and yet that would be the effect of the Amendment. Seamen and fishermen did not often get the chance of bringing their grievances before the House of Commons, and when they did it was hard that they should be met with an Amendment which would defeat their claims without advancing any others. It would be difficult enough to give practical effect to the Motion before the House, but it would be beyond the wit of man to draft a Bill which would meet every possible case covered by the Amendment. If the privilege of voting by proxy were given to those who were on duty, why not to those who were on business or who were detained by urgent necessity or sickness? The result of trying to do too much at once would be that the seamen and fishermen would lose their chance. He would suggest to the hon. Member for Derby a better way of getting what he desired. He was entirely unprejudiced in this matter, and if he had any leanings they were in favour of the railway men, who were a very responsible body of men, and Members of Parliament owed much to them, for they were a conspicuously sober, intelligent, capable, and respectable body of citizens. He would not say one word against their rights. No doubt the

  541
  public owed a great obligation to the railway men, who were a most deserving class, and they ought to be given every assistance; but the railway companies were anxious to give their men all reasonable facilities for voting, and the cases of hardship must be getting fewer. The surest method of getting a change in the law was to deal with the most obvious cases of hardship first. The household franchise had been reduced gradually, and he suggested that this was the way to proceed now. If it was found practicable to draw a Bill to carry out the desire of the hon. Member for Birkenhead, he thought that it would not be found to have the evil results predicted. If it was found possible to give these classes the power of voting by proxy, then would be the time to make the extension. Personally he was in favour of giving every voter in the country every facility to vote, and he considered it to be the duty of the State not only to help men to vote, but to encourage them to vote, and under certain safeguards to compel them to vote, not only in Parliamentary elections but in local elections. The proportion of seamen who went to the poll was less than the proportion which prevailed among the general electors of the country. A landsman was not hindered in these days of cheap and easy transit from voting, but the seaman might find himself hundreds of miles from shore. The landsman might have to forfeit some portion of his day's wages on the day of the poll, and he was sorry that this should be the case. Seamen, however, if they stayed on shore to vote, might sacrifice the fruits of a whole voyage or the share of a season's catch. If the House wished to make this a practical proposal he hoped that the hon. Member for Derby would not consider it necessary to press his Amendment to a division.
  MR. HEMPHILLconfessed that he could not see why the Government should have any difficulty in referring this subject to a Select Committee. The question was what course I they proposed to adopt in regard to the Amendment.
  MR. GRANT LAWSONsaid it was the Amendment which caused the difficulty.
  MR. HEMPHILLsaid there surely could be no difficulty in sending the whole question to a Select Committee. It was a matter of considerable importance, and he was glad to think that the hon. Member at least approved the principle of the general Resolution, which opened the door to the consideration of the larger question involved in the Amendment. He thought that railway men had a grievance as well as seamen and fishermen. If it were right for seamen and mariners to have this privilege, it would only be fair to extend it to all who were physically debarred from casting their votes on the day fixed for the election. Already special provision had been made for the blind and the illiterate. It might be suggested; that railway men could leave their work for the polling day. So, too, could mariners; but why should they incur that loss and run the risk of losing their employment. He once contested a constituency—Hastings—where a great number of fishermen who were anxious to vote for him could not do so, because they had to be out at sea from five in the morning till after eight at night. Let them do equal justice all round in this matter. All the difficulties could be dealt with in Committee, but let the House now lay down the principle that any citizen disabled from any cause from giving his vote should be no longer disfranchised thereby. He should support the Amendment.
  SIR ELLIOTT LEESsaid he agreed that the privilege ought to be extended to railway men, and no doubt if his proposal were carried it would eventually be. But he held that it would be bad Parliamentary tactics if the hon. Member for Derby pressed his Amendment, as it might endanger the prospect of removing the grievance of seamen and fishermen. Still, if there were a division on the Amendment he should feel it impossible to vote against it. Let them, however, proceed step by step, because he believed that if once they got the matter referred to a Select Committee, it would be easy to devise a practicable scheme for removing these disabilities.
  MR. BLACKwas glad note the sympathetic reception given by

  543
  the Secretary to the Local Government Board to the general proposal now before the House. He disagreed with the mover of the Motion that this was a question of tactics. The question of tactics would be easily disposed of if they got an undertaking from the Government that, if a Bill were introduced dealing with the case of seamen and fishermen, they would give it their support. It would certainly in that case become law before, the next general election. He would like particularly to emphasise the position of the men engaged in the herring fishery. Theirs was a hard case, for they were now employed all the year round away from home.
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! I think it would be desirable first to dispose of the case of the railway men, which is the subject of the Amendment.
  *MR. BLACKsaid he would, in that case, content himself with asking if the Government would support any Bill carrying out the proposals both of the mover of the Motion and of the hon. Member for Derby.
  MR. WEIRalso asked for an assurance from the Government that they would take steps to deal with this question, as it affected railway men as well as fishermen. Would the Government support any Bill having that for its object?
  MR. REGINALD LUCASasked to what extent the word "others" in the Amendment would affect Government employees, such as soldiers, postmen, policemen, and especially sailors of the Royal Navy. He pointed out how when the Channel Squadron was off Spithead the Devonport men among the crew had no chance of voting, while, if it were off Devonport, the Portsmouth men were similarly debarred. Could not some scheme be devised to enable these men to record their votes?
  MR. WILLIAM REDMONDsuggested that the word "others" was capable of a wide interpretation, and might leave the door open to a great
  544
  many malpractices. Hs thought the Amendment should be modified in this respect, so as to make it clear that the privilege was to extend only to them who were absolutely prevented by the nature of their duties from recording their votes on the polling day.
  MR. CUMMING MACDONAsaid he intended to vote for the Motion, because he represented Rotherhithe, whers there were three and a-half miles of sailors. What applied to Rotherhithe applied also to every port in the kingdom. He saw no reason why the Amendment should not be accepted and incorporated in the Motion, for in his opinion railway men were just as much entitled to the privilege as sailors.
  MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDhoped the Amendment would not be persisted in, not because he had not a great deal of sympathy with railway men, but because he believed its acceptance would simply lead to the passing of an impracticable Resolution. If, on the other hand, the Motion were adopted and the Government saw their way to give facilities for legislation on the subject, and a Bill were passed, there would be an unanswerable case afterwards for railway men and others to come in and have their grievances remedied. He remembered an occasion at Liverpool on which 300 men who had to leave the city by an early morning train were prevented recording their votes because they were delayed on the return journey and their train did not get in till eight o'clock. How were they to deal with such a case? He appealed to the hon. Member to withdraw the Amendment.
  MR. SHACKLETONsaid he should support the Amendment not only because it included railway servants but because it included others. He instanced engineers and workmen engaged in the building trade as classes of voters requiring special facilities for voting. They often left home by the first train on Monday morning and did not return until Saturday, and they, in his opinion, were as much entitled to the privilege as any other

  545
  class. What course did the Government propose to take in view of the fact that the mover of the Resolution was not prepared to challenge a vote on the Amendment? Were the Government prepared to accept the further suggestion that the whole question, as affecting all voters, should be referred to a Select Committee, so that the many difficulties surrounding the subject might be threshed out, reported upon, and definite legislation introduced as early as possible? Seeing the House was so unanimously in favour of this extension of voting power, he thought the Government might very well agree to appoint a Select Committee to consider the whole question.
  SIR FREDERICK BANBURYdid not agree that the House was unanimously in favour of the original Motion being passed. So far as the Amendment was concerned, if the matter went to a division he would support the hon. Member for Derby, because he held that railway servants were as much deserving of consideration as the other classes who had been mentioned. At the same time, he thought the original Motion was impossible and illogical, and when the Amendment had been disposed of he would have something to say on the main question.
  MR. TOMKINSONhoped the Amendment would be carried, as it seemed to him that railway men were more entitled to the proposed extension than fishermen, being less free agents. Their duties absolutely compelled them to be absent from the polling booth, whereas a vast number of fishermen were able to please themselves.
  MAJOR SEELYasked whether, after the Amendment had been disposed of, it would be in order to move the reference of the matter to a Select Committee.
  *MR. SPEAKERsaid that when the Amendments to the Motion had been disposed of it would be competent to propose the addition of some such words as "and that it is desirable that the matter should be referred to a Select
  546
  Committee," but a proposal actually to appoint a Select Committee was one of which notice should be given. All that the House could do now was to express a desire that the matter should be so referred.
  Amendment proposed—
  "To leave out the words 'at sea,' insert the words 'on duty.'"—(Mr. Bell.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. WALTER LONG,)said that, while the great majority in the House appeared to be agreed that it was desirable that steps should be taken to enable those who enjoyed the franchise to exercise that privilege, there was a grave difficulty created by the Amendment now proposed. He could not accept the Amendment on the understanding that it pledged the Government to further action in the matter, inasmuch as the language used was so vague. It it was desired that there should be an examination of the existing disabilities of those who were entitled to vote but were prevented from doing so by their occupations, that might form the subject of inquiry by a Select Committee; but it was obvious that, the terms of reference to such a Committee would have to be very carefully considered by the Government. If the House desired to deal with a practical difficulty in a practical manner, he would suggest that the proper way would be to withdraw alike the reference to seamen and those on duty and to refer the whole matter to a Select Committee, the terms of reference to which Committee should, as he had said, be very carefully considered. While the Government did not intend to offer opposition to the Resolution as it stood, they could not be responsible for carrying into effect a Resolution so vague as the present Motion would become by the insertion of the words now proposed.
  *SIR CHARLES DILKEsupported the insertion

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  of the consequential words now proposed, but he could not help thinking that the speech just made on behalf of the Cabinet, to use the famous Treasury phrase, "opened a very serious door." There were Gentlemen who possessed sixty votes in different parts of the country. If the suggestion was that anything should be done to encourage the adoption of a plan by which such Gentlemen or even fagot voters might be assisted, he was sure that that was not the intention of the supporters of this proposal. By voting for this Amendment the sense of the House would be expressed on the subject.
  SIR FREDERICK BANBURYpointed out that, by refusing to insert the words "on duty," the House would make nonsense of the Motion, for it would then refer to "railway men…at sea."
  Question put, and negatived.
  Words "on duty" inserted.
  Main Question, as amended, proposed.
  SIR FREDERICK BANBURYsaid the question now at issue was an extremely important one, and he was surprised that the Government, having expressed their general sympathy with the proposal, should have left it to the chance of a private Members' night instead of introducing a sensible measure on the subject. It was well known that such Motions seldom led to any practical result, and to deal with this question by Resolution was only away of evading the practical difficulties which would be apparent on any attempt to legislate. In a practical measure every class with the same grievance would have to be included, and the result, as had been admitted in the debate, would be the introduction of a revolutionary system. It was an extra-ordinary thing that the Government should assist a revolutionary proposal by assenting to a Resolution of this kind. The present law of Parliamentary regis-
  548
  tration was arrived at after Amendments made during a long course of years, and one essential feature had always been recognized the presence of the voter on the polling day. Under such a scheme as had been outlined in the debate, that feature would be done away with, as also I would the secrecy of the ballot. The change, amounting almost to a revolution, now proposed was one not to be hastily adopted. Following his hon. friend's description of the system to be followed it was obvious that it would greatly add to the returning officers' expenses, already considered much too high by hon. Gentlemen opposite. In the case of the blind and illiterate it was physically impossible for them to record their vote. Up to the present they had had no discussion on the Main Question which had been limited to the speeches of the hon. Member who introduced the Motion and the seconder. Therefore he thought it was quite legitimate for him to discuss the Main Question. He felt sure that the secrecy of the ballot would be broken by the proposals which had been put forward and there would be a new principle introduced, namely, that the returning officer would have to keep the polling places open for many days longer. In this way they would be returning to the old condition of things. He thought one day was sufficient for the polling stations to be kept open. It was an extraordinary thing that a suggestion should now be made to go back to the old system. The hon. Member had pointed out a very serious difficulty in the fact that a voter might record his vote and then go to sea and the candidate he had voted for might afterwards change his views. If some hon. Member would show him how this measure could be brought in, and could be acted upon in an efficient and proper manner, he should be much obliged. The hon. Member who introduced the Motion said it passed the wit of man to carry out his suggestions in a proper way, and it was because he believed that the only thing this proposal

  549
  would do would be to give more work to lawyers that he should oppose the Motion.
  MR. CHARLES McARTHURurged that the Motion and the Amendment should be withdrawn in order that a Select Committee might be appointed to deal with the whole subject. He did not think it would eb practicable to keep the polling booths open from the day on which the writ was issued to the day of the poll, but it would be practicable to keep it open from the day of nomination to the day of the poll. Railway men who, owing to their calling, could not attend on the polling day, were entitled, equally with sailors, to consideration. Although he thought the sailors had a prior claim because they were practically disfranchised, at the same time he thought the case of the railway men stood almost upon all fours with the case of the sailor. It seemed to him, however, that it would be unwise to refuse the offer made by the President of the Local Government Board. This Resolution would come to nothing, but if it was withdrawn they had a pledge from the Government that the whole subject would be inquired into by a Select Committee.
  *SIR ERANCIS POAVELLagreed that they should take great care not to facilitate voting in the shape of fagot votes. He did not think this Resolution, as it stood, could be regarded as complete, because it dealt with working men only, and although he was in favour of the Motion being carried into effect if possible, he was of opinion that if I any change was made in the law it should be of such a character as to embrace other classes than those referred to either in the Motion or the Amendment.
  550
  He thought the professional class who were of necessity away from home on the polling day, and those employed in the Civil Service, who were often absent from their homes on public duty, and others whom he might mention, should be included.
  MR. REGINALD LUCASsaid the hon. Baronet the Member for Peckham had made a most statesmanlike speech, although it had been received with jeers from the other side. He thought a distinction should be drawn between those persons who were absent on private affairs and those who were absent on official duties, and it should be made feasible for Civil servants to record their votes when they were away from home on duty.
  *MR. RENWICK (Newcastle-on-Tyne)said he represented a seaport, and during the elections he had never heard the question mentioned as to whether railway men or other officials required better facilities for recording their vote. He had, however, frequently heard the question raised that seamen should be allowed special facilities for voting. This Motion asked the House to give seamen and fishermen better facilities, and yet Gentlemen opposite—[OPPOSITION Cries of 'Divide."] Did hon. Members opposite object to being called gentlemen? [OPPOSITION Cries of "Divide, divide."]
  MR. BLACKrose in his place, and claimed to move "That the Question be now put;" but Mr. SPEAKER withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.
  *MR. SPEAKER: Surely time will be saved if hon. Members will allow the hon. Gentleman to finish his remark. At the same time I must say that

  551
  the hon. Member was wrong in addressing such observations to hon. Members opposite, and he should address the Chair.
  *MR. RENWICKsaid if he had said anything wrong he would withdraw his remarks. He hoped the House would accept the offer of the President of the Local Government Board to refer the matter to a Select Committee. The fishermen and seamen were not there to speak for themselves, and he hoped both sides of the House would accept the offer which had been made.
  Resolved, That this House is of opinion that means should be given to Seamen and Fishermen, railway servants, and others to record their votes at Parliamentary elections, when by reason of their calling they will be absent on duty on the day of the poll.

  CROFTERS' HOLDINGS (SCOTLAND) ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
  SIR FREDERICK BANBURYsaid it would be impossible to allow such a Bill to go through at that late hour without any explanation or discussion, because the measure was an extremely important one and dealt with a very large subject.
  And, it being Midnight, the debate I Stood adjourned.
  Debate to be resumed this day.

  PUBLIC ACCOUNTS.
  Ordered, That the Committee of Public Accounts do consist of fifteen members.
  Ordered, That Sir Frederick Banbury, Mr. Blake, Mr. Gibson Bowles, Mr. Buchanan, Mr. Victor Cavendish, Mr. Cohen, Mr. Cameron Corbett, Sir Thomas Esmonde, Mr. Goddard, Sir William Brampton Gurdon, Sir Arthur Hayter Mr. Herbert Lewis, Sir Robert Mowbray, Mr. Pym, and Mr. Yerburgh be members of the Committee.
  Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records.—(Sir A. Acland-Hood.)

  IRISH VALUATION ACTS.
  Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire and report what changes in the Irish Valuation Acts are desirable in order to enable a revaluation of rateable property in any district to be made on a basis equitable to all classes of ratepayers, and to be brought into force in an effective manner.
  Ordered, That Mr. Clancy, Sir John Colomb, Mr. Craig, Mr. Joseph Devlin, Mr. Douglas, Mr. Duke, Mr. Goulding, Sir James Haslett, Mr. Hemphill, Mr. Lee, Mr. Lough, Mr. William M'Killop, Mr. W. J. H. Maxwell, Mr. A. Graham Murray, and Mr. Randles be members of the Select Committee.
  Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records.
  Ordered, That Five be the quorum—(Sir A. Acland-Hood.)
  Adjourned at five minutes after Twelve o'clock.