§ Considered in Committee.
§ (In the Committee.)
§ [MR. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]
§ Clause 2.
360§ Amendment again proposed—
§ "In page 2, line 6, at the end, to add the words, '(2) A rebate at the rate of three halfpence for every pound of tobacco shall be allowed on any increased duty under this Act paid on or after the nineteenth day of July, nineteen hundred end four, in respect of any stripped tobacco which is shown to the satisfaction of the Commissioners of Customs to have been deposited in a bonded warehouse before 361 the twentieth day of April, nine hundred and four.'"—(The Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
§ Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
§ MR. SYDNEY BUXTONmoved an Amendment to the Amendment to substitute 3d. for l½d. The proposed rebate of l½d. was a sort of sop to the importer in order to allay the feeling of irritation which might otherwise have existed. It appeared to him that in this case there must be some principle on which this rebate should be given, and he could not understand the position of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the matter. The rebate offered was either fair or unfair. If the importers had a claim to it they were entitled to the whole rebate, and if they had no claim they were entitled to nothing. The Committee had not been able to I gather from the arguments and speeches of the Chancellor of the Exchequer on what basis he founded the proposal for the rebate, but he was glad that, at all events, the right hon Gentleman had changed the attitude which up to that afternoon he had taken on the matter. He now admitted that the importers had a grievance and he practically admitted that this was a protective duty which had already so far demoralised the trade that it had been actually necessary to give a certain sop to the importers in order that the tax should go through at all. He had agreed to give away half of what the tax would produce. That was not the way in which they were accustomed to have Revenue taxes dealt with in this House. The whole difficulty had arisen because this was not a Revenue duty, but a protective tax. He could see no equity in the right hon. Gentleman's proposal, which was either too great or too small. He appealed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer not to press this tax, which had been clearly shown to be not a Revenue duty, but a protective tax. It was leading to great disturbance in the tobacco trade which, certainly, the amount of revenue derived from it did not justify.
Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
In line 1, to leave out the word 'halfpence,' and insert the word 'pence,' "—(Mr. Sydney Buxton.)362 Question put, "That the word 'halfpence' stand part of the proposed Amendment."
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid they had discussed this matter so fully that there was very little left for him to add at this stage. Of course if the Amendment were carried he would not be likely to receive any revenue from the tax this year, and it was to obtain money for the present year that he had proposed the tax. It was in his search for revenue that he had hit upon this anomaly in the tobacco duties. He did not pretend that the figure he had chosen for the rebate was the result of an elaborate or accurate mathematical calculation.
§ MR. SYDNEY BUXTONIt is not scientific.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid he had never pretended that this Budget was scientific. On the contrary, he had said that there was no trace of scientific taxation about it, but that it was a Budget entirely in accordance with the old lines of our fiscal policy. He had proposed a rebate of 1½d. because he wished to treat generously, as a Finance Minister ought, interests affected by his proposals. His whole contention had been that by the existing scale of duties the natural coarse of trade had been diverted and our manufacturers had been obliged to use strips instead of leaf because of the unfair advantage which was given to strips. The result was that the import of strips had very largely exceeded, during past years, the import of leaf, and the stocks of strips were very much in excess of what they would have been if the duties had been absolutely fair as between the two. He proposed for the future to remove the anomaly which absolutely penalised the man who wished to carry on the processes of manufacture here. But he recognised that strips had accumulated out of proportion to whole leaf, and after full consideration he thought it reasonable that the change should not take immediate effect. It was with that view that he made this proposal of a rebate of 1½d. It did not pretend to be the result of any accurate mathematical calculation. It was proposed to meet a difficulty 363 which arose out of the anomalies of their past duties. He believed it would meet that difficulty fairly, and that, from what had reached him, those who were particularly interested in these stocks felt that he had not unfairly dealt with their representations. He did not himself believe that the importers would have had to make anything like the sacrifices which they themselves anticipated if his proposals had remained in their original form. He felt sure that in the amended form he had suggested their stocks of strips had a preference over the whole leaf, and even if that were not the case he did not believe that the place of these stocks of strips could be taken by any supplies of leaf which were now available. He was convinced that, with the concession he had proposed, the importers would not undergo the kind of loss which had been so frequently alluded to during these debates. He desired to make this personal explanation in answer to the remark of the hon. Gentleman opposite, that when the hon. Member for Leith rose to move to report Progress on the last occasion when this subject was under discussion he himself lose at the same time in order to make the very statement he made at the beginning of this afternoon's sitting. He thought, however, in the circumstances, and seeing that it was then about 2 o'clock in the morning, it would be better to defer the statement. He desired to make this explanation in order to assure the Committee that he had not been suddenly converted or that he had deliberately withheld information from the House.
§ MR. MUNRO FERGUSONsaid that the manufacturer could recoup himself by raising the price on any extra duty, but the importer could not do so. The rebate would, therefore, produce inequality as between manufacturer and importer. There had been anomalies under the old system, but they would be quite as great under that now proposed.
§ MR. DAVID MACIVER (Liverpool, Kirkdale)said that the importers of Liverpool appreciated the fair way in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had met the difficulty. If his right hon. friend could see his way to give them another 364 halfpenny, their losses would not be so great, and they would be still more grateful. [Opposition cries of "Move."]
§ MR. McKENNAsaid he quite recognised that the hon. Member opposite should be grateful to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the concession which he had made. But they on that side of the House had another duty to perform. They had to look upon this question from the point of view as to whether it was right or wrong. He still thought that this tax was wrong, and that the concession was not sufficient. Clearly, this year, the duty would fait on the owners of existing stocks in bond. The evidence given before the Departmental Committee was that if an additional drawback was given for which the witnesses were asking, it would become more profitable to import unstripped tobacco than stripped; but it was not suggested that there should be a difference between the duty on the two kinds. He asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how in the face of that evidence, and how in the face of the particular argument put forward by himself, he hoped to establish a case for putting a duty of three halfpence on existing stocks in bond? It was quite clear that once the existing stocks were exhausted there would be no revenue from strips. He asserted without fear of contradiction that this penny-halfpenny duty would fall on the owners of these existing stocks, and that they would have no chance of getting it out of the public.
RUNCIMANsaid that the concession of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give a rebate of 1½d. up to the next day (Tuesday) was one of considerable importance; but he thought the concession should have been notified earlier through the medium of Question and Answer. He could not go to the extent of pleading for great gratitude from the importers for the concession. No doubt they would be glad to escape from a large obligation, but how they could be grateful for hearing £175,000 of taxation which would not be borne by any other citizens of the Empire passed his comprehension. They would still feel the burden of £7 10s. a hogshead on stocks in bonded warehouses, and that was an 365 obligation they were not likely to be extremely thankful for. The, Chancellor of the Exchequer could have exempted all existing contracts as his predecessor the right hon. Member for West Bristol did in regard to the coal tax. That action was appreciated, and he hoped it was not too late to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to do the same for importers of stripped tobacco. He could not see how the importing firms could shift the tax
§ on to the consumers. If they could he would not object. Why the Chancellor of the Exchequer had probably not gone the whole way was because, having made this original suggestion, he was too much devoted to it to give it up at the last moment.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 194; Noes, 152. (Division List No. 246.)
367| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork,N.E.) | Flower, Sir Ernest | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. |
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex.F. | Flynn, James Christopher | Maxwell,W.J.H.(Dumfriesshire |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Forster, Henry William | Milvain, Thomas |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Foster,Fhilip S.(Warivick,S.W. | Molesworth, Sir Lewis |
| Arnold-Forster,Rt.Hn.Hugh O. | Galloway, William Johnson | Montagu, Hn.J.Scott (Hants.) |
| Arrol, Sir William | Gardner, Ernest | Mooney, John J. |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. | Gordon Hn.J.E. (Elgin&Nairn) | Morgan,DavidJ.(Walthamstow |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- | Morrell, George Herbert |
| Bartley, Sir George C. T. | Greene,SirE. W.(B'rySEm'nds | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Greene,W. Raymond-(Cambs.) | Moulton, John Fletcher |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Grenfell, William Henry | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. |
| Bigwood, James | Hall, Edward Marshall | Murphy, John |
| Bill, Charles | Hambro, Charles Eric | Murray,Rt Hn.A.Graham(Bute |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) |
| Boland, John | Haslett, Sir James Horner | Myers, William Henry |
| Bond, Edward | Hayden, John Patrick | Nannetti, Joseph P. |
| Brigg, John | Heath, James (Staffords. N. W. | Newdegate, Francis A. N. |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Heaton, John Henniker | Nolan,Col. John P.(Galway,N.) |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Hickman, Sir Alfred | O'Brien,Kendal(Tipperary Mid |
| Butcher, John George | Holland, Sir William Henry | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Campbell.J.H.M.(Dublin Univ. | Hope,J.F.(Sheffield,Brightside | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Howard,John(Kent,Faversh'm | O'Connor, James (Wicklow,W.) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Hozier, Hon. Jas. Henry Cecil | O'Dowd, John |
| Cavendish,V. C. W.(Derbyshire | Hudson, George Bickersteth | O'Malley, William |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Hunt, Rowland | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Charrington, Spencer | Joicey, Sir James | O'Shee, James John |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Jones,David Brynmor(Swansea | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Coates, Edward Feetham | Kennedy,Vincent P.(Cavan,W. | Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Kerr, John | Peel,Hn.Wm. Robert Wellesley |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Keswick, William | Percy, Earl |
| Cripps, Charles Alfred | King, Sir Henry Seymour | Plummer, Sir Walter R. |
| Clinician, J. | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Levy, Maurice | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Delany, William | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Ratcliff, R. F. |
| Devlin,CharlesRamsay(Galway | Lowe, Francis William | Reckitt, Harold James |
| Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Dickinson, Robert Edmond | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Renwick, George |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Lucas,ReginaldJ.(Portsmouth) | Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge |
| Dimsdale, Rt.Hn. Sir Joseph C. | Lundon, W. | Ridley,S. Forde (Bethnal Green |
| Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Macdona, John Cumming | Robinson, Brooke |
| Doogan, P. C. | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Round, Rt. Hon. James |
| Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E. | Maconochie, A. W. | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Eve, Harry Trelawney | M'Hugh, Patrick A. | Samuel,Sir HarryS.(Limehouse |
| Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | M'Kean, John | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Fisher, William Hayes | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Fitzroy, Hon. EdwardAlgernon | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Flannery, Sir Fortescue | M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin | Sheehy, David |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Martin, Richard Biddulph | Smith,Abel H.(Hertford, East) |
| Smith, Samuel (Flint) | Thornton, Percy M. | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. | Young, Samuel |
| Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lancs.) | Tully, Jasper | Younger, William |
| Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart | Warde, Colonel C. E. | |
| Strachey, Sir Edward | Welby, Lt.Col. A.C.E.(Taunton | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Sullivan, Donal | Whiteley, George (York,W.R.) | Mr. Herbert Robertson and |
| Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) | Wilson, A. Stanley (York,E.R.) | Colonel Lockwood. |
| Thomas,David Alfred (Merthyr | Wilson-Todd,Sir W. H.(Yorks.) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Fuller, J. M. F. | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Allen, Charles P. | Gladstone,Rt.Hn.HerbertJohn | Pirie, Duncan V. |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Grant, Corrie | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Asher, Alexander | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Rea, Russell |
| Asquith, Rt.Hn.Herbert Henry | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Hardy,Laurence(Kent,Ashford | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Harris, F. Leverton(Tynem'th) | Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Harwood, George | Robson, William Snowdon |
| Balcarres, Lord | Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. | Runciman, Walter |
| Barlow, John Emmott | Helder, Augustus | Russell, T. W. |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Higham, John Sharpe | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Horniman, Frederick John | Shackleton, David James |
| Beach, Rt.Hn.Sir MichaelHicks | Houston, Robert Paterson | Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) |
| Bell, Richard | Jacoby, James Alfred | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Shaw-Stewart, Sir H. (Renfrew) |
| Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Skewes-Cox, Thomas |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire | Smith, H.C(North'mb.Tyneside |
| Burt, Thomas | Kitson, Sir James | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Langley, Batty | Spear, John Ward |
| Caldwell, James | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Cameron, Robert | Lawson, JohnGrant(Yorks.N.R | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) |
| Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) | Tennant, Harold John |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Lee,Arthur H.(Hants,Fareham | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Lees, Sir Elliot (Birkenhead) | Tomkinson, James |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Leese,Sir Joseph F. (Accrington | Toulmin, George |
| Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Tuff, Charles |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Long,Rt.Hn. Walter (Bristol,S) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Craig,Charles Curtis (Antrim,S. | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Crooks, William | Lough, Thomas | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) | Lowther,RtHn.JW (Cum.Penr. | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) |
| Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile | Lyell, Charles Henry | Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- |
| Davenport, William Bromley- | MacIver, David (Liverpool) | White, Luke (York, E.R.) |
| Denny, Colonel | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Whiteley,H.(Ashton und. Lyne |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Dobbie, Joseph | M'Kenna, Reginald | Wills, Sir Frederick |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Markham, Arthur Basil | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Milner, Rt.Hn.Sir Frederick G. | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Mitchell, Edw.(Fermanagh,N.) | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Emmott, Alfred | Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | Woodhouse,SirJ T.(Huddersf'd |
| Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Newnes, Sir George | Wylie, Alexander |
| Fenwick, Charles | Nussey, Thomas Willans | |
| Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) | Parrott, William | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| FitzGerald,Sir Robert Penrose- | Partington, Oswald | Mr. William Abraham |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | Paulton, James Mellor | (Rhondda) and Mr.Trevelyan |
| Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) | |
| Freeman-Thomas, Captain F. | Pemberton, John S. G. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- | Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Fitzroy, Hon.Edward Algernon | Loyd, Archie Kirkman |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) |
| Arnold-Forster,Rt.Hn. HughO. | Forster, Henry William | Lucas,Reginald J. (Portsmouth |
| Arrol, Sir William | Foster,Plulip S.(Warwick,S.W. | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Gardner, Ernest | Macdona, John Cumming |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Gordon, Hn.J.E.(Elgin&Nairn) | MacIver, David (Liverpool) |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- | M'Iver, Sir Lewis (EdinbnrghW |
| Balcarres, Lord | Goulding, Edward Alfred | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r | Graham, Henry Robert | Martin, Richard Biddulph |
| Balfour,Rt.Hn.GeraldW.(Leeds | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F. |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. | Greene,Sir E.W(B'rySEdm'nds | Maxwell,W.J.H.(Dumfriesshire |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) | Melville, Beresford Valentine |
| Bartley, Sir George C. T. | Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) | Milner,Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G. |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Grenfell, William Henry | Milvain, Thomas |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Gretton, John | Molesworth, Sir Lewis |
| Bigwood, James | Hall, Edward Marshall | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) |
| Bill, Charles | Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. | Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.) |
| Bingham, Lord | Hambro, Charles Eric | Morgan,DavidJ.(Walthamstow |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Hardy,Laurence(Ken t,Ashford | Morrell, George Herbert |
| Bond, Edward | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Morrison, James Archibald |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St, John | Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th) | Mount, William Arthur |
| Butcher, John George | Haslett, Sir James Horner | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. |
| Campbell,J.H.M.(Dublin Univ. | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Murray, Rt. Hn.A.Graham(Bute |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Heath,Arthur Howard (Hanley | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Heath, James (Staffords.N.W. | Myers, William Henry |
| Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire | Heaton, John Henniker | Newdegate, Francis A. N. |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Helder, Augustus | Nicholson, William Graham |
| Chamberlain,RtHn.J.A.(Worc. | Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford,W.) | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens |
| Chapman, Edward | Hickman, Sir Alfred | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Charrington, Spencer | Hope,J. F. (Sheffield.Brightside | Pease,Herbert Pike(Darlington |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Houston, Robert Paterson | Peel,Hn. Wm. RobertWellesley |
| Clive, Captain Percy A. | Howard,John(Kent,Faversham | Pemberton, John S. G. |
| Coates, Edward Feetham | Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil | Percy, Earl |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Hunt, Rowland | Plummer, Sir Walter R. |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim,S. | Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred. | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile | Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton | Pym, C. Guy |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Ratcliff, R. F. |
| Davenport, William Bromley- | Kerr, John | Renwick, George |
| Dickinson, Robert Edmond | Keswick, William | Ridley, Hon.M. W.(Stalybridge |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Kimber, Henry | Ridley,S. Forde (Bethnal Green |
| Dimsdale,Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph C. | King, Sir Henry Seymour | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) |
| Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E. | Lawson JohnGrant(Yorks.N.R | Robinson, Brooke |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Lee, Arthur H.(Hants,Fareham | Round, Rt. Hon. James |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S. | Samuel,Sir HarryS.(Limehouse |
| Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Fergusson,Rt.Hn.Sir J.(Manc'r | Lockwood. Lieut.-Col. A. R. | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Skewes-Cox, Thomas |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Long,Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol,S) | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford,East) |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Smith,H.C(North'mb.Tyneside |
| Fison, Frederick William | Lowe, Francis William | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Spear, John Ward | Valentia. Viscount | Wilson-Todd,Sir W. H.(Yorks.) |
| Stanley,EdwardJas.(Somerset) | Vincent,Col.SirC.E H.(Sheffield | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Stanley, Rt. Hon.Lord (Lancs.) | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) | Wortley,Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Stewart,Sir Mark J.M'Taggart | Warde, Colonel C. E. | Wylie, Alexander |
| Stone, Sir Benjamin | Webb, Colonel William George | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) | Welby,Lt.Col.A.C.E. (Taunton | |
| Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) | Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Thorburn, Sir Walter | Whiteley, H.(Ashton und.Lyne | Sir Alexander Acland-Hood |
| Thornton, Percy M. | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) | and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes. |
| Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. | Wilson,A. Stanley (York, E.R.) | |
| Tuff, Charles | Wilson, John (Glasgow) | |
| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) | Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | O'Brien Kendal(Tipperary,Mid |
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Fuller, J. M. F. | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J. | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) |
| Allen, Charles P. | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | O'Connor,James (Wicklow, W. |
| Asher, Alexander | Haldane, Rt. Hn. Richard B. | O'Dowd, John |
| Asquith,Rt.Hn. Herbert Henry | Harcourt, Lewis V. (Rossendale | O'Malley, William |
| Barlow, John Emmott | Hardie,J.Keir (Merthyr Tydvil | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Shee, James John |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. | Parrott, William |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Partington, Oswald |
| Bell, Richard | Higham, John Sharpe | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) |
| Boland, John | Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol,E.) | Pirie, Duncan V. |
| Brigg, John | Holland, Sir William Henry | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Horniman, Frederick John | Priestley, Arthur |
| Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) | Jacoby, James Alfred | Rea, Russell |
| Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Reckitt, Harold James |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Joicey, Sir James | Redmond, John E. (Waterford |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Jones, DavidBrynmor(Swansea | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Burt, Thomas | Jones, William(Carnarvonshire | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Kearley, Hudson E. | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Caldwell, James | Kennedy,Vincent P.(Cavan,W. | Robson, William Snowdon |
| Cameron, Robert | Kitson. Sir James | Russell, T. W. |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Labouchere, Henry | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Lambert, George | Shackleton, David James |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Langley, Batty | Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) |
| Cawley, Frederick | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Leese, SirJosepliF. (Accrington | Sheehy, David |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Levy, Maurice | Strachey, Sir Edward |
| Cremer, William Randal | Lewis, John Herbert | Sullivan, Donal |
| Cullinan, J. | Lough, Thomas | Tennant, Harold John |
| Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan | Lundon, W. | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E. |
| Delany, William | Lyell, Charles Henry | Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr |
| Devlin,CharlesRamsay(Galway | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Tomkinson, James |
| Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Toulmin, George |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Dobbie, Joseph | M'Hugh, Patrick A. | Tully, Jasper |
| Donelan, Captain A. | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Doogan, P. C. | M' Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannen) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Markham, Arthur Basil | White, Luke (York, E.R.) |
| Elibank, Master of | Mitchell, Edw.(Fermanagh, N.) | Whiteley, George (York, W.R.) |
| Ellice,Capt.E.C(S.Andrw'sBghs | Mooney, John J. | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Emmott, Alfred | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Wills, Sir Frederick |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas | Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R. |
| Evans, SirFrancisH.(Maidstone | Moulton, John Fletcher | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Eve, Harry Trelawney | Murphy, John | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Woodhouse,SirJ.T.(Huddersf'd |
| Fenwick, Charles | Newnes, Sir George | |
| Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) | Nolan,Col. John P.(Galway,N.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Mr. M'Kenna and Mr. |
| Flynn, James Christopher | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Runcitnan. |
Question put, and agreed to.
§ MR. RUNCIMANsaid he wished to add to the Amendment the words "or is on the high seas consigned to an United Kingdom port on." This would extend 368 the right to rebate to tobacco shipped before 20th April. A merchant who was not fortunate enough to get his goods into the bonded warehouse, but who had 369 shipped them before the proposals of the Chancellor of the Exchequer were known, should have the same advantage, for it was not possible for him to intercept the vessel before its arrival in the United Kingdom. The concession he suggested was a very small one, as it only covered the tobacco which was afloat at the date of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's original proposal. He proposed the Amendment with the idea of covering the merchants who were in that position.
§
Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
After the word 'before' to insert the words 'or is on the high seas consigned to an United Kingdom portion.'"—(Mr. Runciman.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendent."
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid he would accept the Amendment.
§ MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid he was glad that the right hon. Gentleman had accepted the proposed words. He asked whether an estimate had been made of the amount of tobacco on the high seas at the time, and how much further rebate would be given. In his view the right hon. Gentleman could hardly help accepting the Amendment, and its acceptance was merely a further argument in favour of the tax being withdrawn.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid he thought the remarks of the hon. Gentleman were not generous, nor would they facilitate the harmonious progress of the discussion. He had made the concession in response to appeals from both sides of the House. It was quite manifest that the hon. Member (Mr. Runciman) moved his Amendment in no spirit of hostility, and, being anxious to meet the views of the hon. Member, he at once accepted it. He was not in a position to say what amount of tobacco would be on the high seas in that particular form, but it could not under the circumstances bear any very large proportion to that which was the subject-matter of the original Amendment. Whilst anxious to meet hon. Gentlemen in this matter he hoped they would not make the concession a ground for prolonging the debate.
§ SIR JAMES JOICEYsaid he approved of the action of the Chancellor the Exchequer who, when a grievance was brought to his notice, was always ready to accept a remedy for it.
§ Words, as amended, added.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 2, line 6, at end, to add the words 'in this section the expression, "stripped tobacco" means any leaf tobacco of which the leaf is not complete by reason of the removal of the stalk or midrib or of some portion thereof, but tobacco shall not be deemed to be stripped tobacco solely by reason of its having been subjected to such process of butting as the Commissioners of Customs allow.' "—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Motion made, and question proposed. "That Clause 2, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
§ MR. WINSTON CHURCHILL (Oldham)said he did not think that the Government could possibly be surprised that those who found themselves opposed to this tax on tobacco should consider it necessary, in view of all that had passed, to divide against the clause as a whole. The Chancellor of the Exchequer's courtesy must be acknowledged, but the concessions in view of which he appealed to the Committee were not to be regarded as favours. If it was right and proper that he should have made these concessions, he had only done his duty. Why had he made these concessions? Was it because he thought it a right and proper thing to do? If so, he should be grateful to his critics who had pointed out to him the means of improving taxation. The right hoe. Gentleman had animadverted on the prolongation of the debate. The prolongation was due to interruption and the switching off of the House on to another topic of an exciting kind. The concessions made it clear that the prolongation of the discussion had been of advantage. In consequence of the criticism made in Committee the right hon. Gentleman had announced a change in his proposals which affected a quarter of a million of money and a number of persons all over the country. 371 They might have concluded the debate on this tax earlier if it had not been complicated by the introduction of personal matters which the Chancellor of the Exchequer was prompt in addressing himself to. No one ever dreamt of making ail attack upon the personal honour of the right hon. Gentleman. They had had no explanation of the change in the proportion of stripped and leaf. Since the right hon. Gentleman made his proposal it had evidently been to the interest of merchants not to import stripped tobacco. It was clear that there had been a leakage of information by which certain, persons had profited. That point had not been cleared up and that was a good reason for opposing the tax. He did not hold a brief for the manufacturers of tobacco who could very well look after themselves.
The right hon. Gentleman had come down that afternoon and made a complete change of front, fatal, he thought, to the logical basis of his whole argument in favour of the tax. When they last discussed the question the right hon. Gentleman said that the tax was fair as between the different classes of tobacco and the different classes of the trade, but it was pointed out by the hon. Member for Bristol that it would inflict on a comparatively small number gentlemen a very considerable pecuniary fine. This the right hon. Gentleman repudiated, but within a fortnight he had come to the conclusion that he was wrong, and in deference to criticism he withdrew not the injustice, but half the injustice. He had accepted the argument of the hon. Member for Bristol, but he had not accepted his conclusions. His own premises were destroyed, but he adhered to one half of his own conclusions. The right hon. Gentleman's attempt to make an adjustment between the different classes of tobacco was quite superfluous, because that adjustment had already been made by the drawbacks contained in the schedule. The Tobacco section of the Liverpool Chamber of Commerce, a recognised body of experts in this trade, had arrived at certain conclusions after consideration of the right hon. Gentleman's argument. Liverpool was a very important place, a place to which the right hon. Gentleman and his friends would 372 possibly look for some support to other proposals they might have in their minds, and surely this was not the time to sicken Liverpool with views of scientific taxation.
It was quite clear that the right hon. Gentleman had been badly advised, or had not understood the advice he had received, in proposing this tax. He had been convicted of unmistakable blunders which overthrew the foundation of his case. The tax was imposed for the purpose of deriving a revenue from the duty on the import of strips, and the revenue was to continue for a number of years. But in the first three months it had dried up for ever that source of revenue. Then the right hon. Gentleman had declared that the price of strips had not altered since the Budget had been introduced, and it was found that he had referred to a price list which only contained quotations of the last transactions before his Budget was introduced. Thirdly, he had been under the impression that there was more moisture in leaf than in strips, whereas these great experts in the trade had unanimously expressed the opinion that properly handled parcels of whole leaf were just as dry as imported strips. The right hon. Gentleman had said that he could not challenge that opinion, and he had conducted forty - three experiments, the result of which had been to unmistakably uphold and confirm the opinion of the Liverpool experts. It was quite clear that the tax was imposed b e the right hon. Gentleman in good faith, but the arguments advanced in its support were full of cardinal and vital errors from beginning to end.
He did not suppose it would be easy to think on the spur of the moment of any tax which would more entirely traverse all the great financial principles laid down by the financial authorities of the country in past years. If the object of the tax was revenue, how signally the right hon. Gentleman had failed to attain that object. He had already surrendered for the present year half the stun he had hoped to attain, so that he would only get something between £200,000 and £250,000 this year as the result of this tax, and in future years the returns 373 would hardly be worth considering when compared to the vast scale of the annual Budget. Considered as a revenue-producing agent this tax utterly, totally, and absolutely failed. In so far as the tax produced revenue it violated the principles of indirect taxation, because instead of a regular annual supply from the consumer, who was after all the proper subject for individual taxation, the revenue was obtained as a sort of lucky haul from a few unfortunate individuals. In the third place, though he had no doubt the Government proposed it in good faith, the tax was undoubtedly protective. The proof of this fact was to be found in the circumstance that some of the persons engaged in the taxed trade were in favour of the tax. He asked the right hon. Gentleman whether it was worth while to go on with the remnants of this tax; was it worth while to vex this vast trade and disturb it from top to bottom; to cause an alteration in the price lists, and to cause so much discussion and debate for the sake of a tax which produced, for one year only, £250,000. He was unable to find any reason in logic why the right hon. Gentleman persisted with this tax, unless it was that advanced by the hon. Member for Dewsbury, that he felt a personal pride and enthusiasm in its success because it was his own special and particular creation. He would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman not to let his personal pride and enthusiasm for the tax force upon the Committee a policy which he must know was not suited to the welfare of the public or the convenience of our financial system. If the right hon. Gentleman forced it through the Committee with his mechanical majority he would emerge from the debates on the tobacco Resolution without any stain whatever on his personal honour 374 but with a very grave and serious, a very real and enduring, injury to his financial reputation.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid he appeared to have been singularly unfortunate in endeavouring to convey his meaning to the hon. Gentleman, and be altogether failed to recognise, in the account he had given, either of his assertions or his admissions, anything approaching the statement he had made. Let them go back to the genesis and nature of this tax. The hon. Gentleman caught up from other people, and repeated in less offensive language—indeed without offence —the suggestion that the intention to impose this tax had somehow leaked out so as to affect the imports of whole leaf before the tax was proposed to be put on. That was based on the imports for the month of March. Let him repeat again what he had already told the Committee. The first proposal of this tax was made in answer to an inquiry of his which was addressed to the Board of Customs in the month of April. He had not any proper basis to suggest this tax in March, still less in the month of February, and, whatever it was that caused the great excess of strips in the month of March, it was not due to any knowledge of any intention which he had not at the time formed and which, therefore, nobody could have gained information about. Those were causes arising out of the natural course of trade which ought not and did not affect his judgment in the matter. He was in search of additional revenue for the Budget; he found that whilst other processes in the manufacture of tobacco were marked by an ascending scale of duty, this process of stripping, and this alone, was ignored, so that stripped tobacco was admitted on exactly the same basis as the whole leaf. He 375 thought they might fairly fill up this gap which was left in the Customs duties on tobacco. He perfectly understood that hon. Gentlemen opposite strongly objected to protection, although they had never thought it necessary in the past to remove manufacturers in this country confessedly enjoyed. But the result of the anomaly which he proposed to remove was not to give this hated protection to our own manufacturers, but artificially to divert the curse of trade, and to make impossible, or at any rate to penalise, the carrying on of a certain process of manufacture in this country. They had if evidence that the manufacturers by importing in the whole leaf could produce a better article, but they were deterred by the arrangement of the duty.
§ MR. McKENNAThe drawback.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid it was the duty and the drawback combined which produced that state of affairs.
§ MR. McKENNAchallenged the right hon. Gentleman to quote any evidence that it was the duty.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINthought he could find evidence referring to duty, but it would not be the evidence of Mr. Gallaher.
§ MR. McKENNAsaid that, curiously enough, that was the only reference he had got.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINremarked that the point was immaterial. It was the existing system which had produced these results. That was not a 376 system which any one, however stout a free-trader, had any cause to defend. The most that free-traders had claimed was that trade should follow its natural course. They were not allowing trade to follow its natural course when they penalised particular processes of manufacture if carried on in this country.
§ MR. McCRAE (Edinburgh, E.)said they had at last had a frankly protectionist speech from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The right hon. Gentleman was putting six times the cost of stripping on imported strips, and not protection he did not know what protection was. The right hon. Gentleman had made a mistake in proposing to deal with tobacco in this way, and the courageous course would have been to admit his mistake and retrace his steps. He understood that if the tobacco was taken out of bond for re-shipment it would pay no duty; therefore, as it could be shipped to America at a cost of ¼d. instead of l½d. the Chancellor of the Exchequer would probably not get even the small amount of revenue he was anticipating. He hoped that, in the interests of sound finance, and in order to get rid of the suspicion of protection, the right hon. Gentleman, even at the eleventh hour, would, like the repentant sinner, see the error of his way, and frankly confess his mistake.
§ MR. COURTENAY WARNER (Staffordshire, Lichfield)said that in a year like the present he would not oppose any tax that was fair and just, and likely to increase the revenue of the country to any appreciable extent. But a tax to be justifiable must disturb as little as possible the trade and 377 prosperity of the country, bring in a large amount of revenue, and be a continuous tax, so that it should not upset the finance of the next year. Inasmuch as the present proposal failed to satisfy any one of those three requirements, he submitted that a worse tax could not be found. Another reason against it was that it was a protective tax, and the Government had pledged themselves not to make any changes in the fiscal policy during the present Parliament. The right hon. Gentleman, by increasing the drawback, had removed the anomaly upon which he had based his proposals, and therefore the tax as it stood was entirely protective.
§ MR. McKENNAsaid the right hon. Gentleman had done himself a slight injustice in saying that he had originally suggested the tax in April, because in the latter part of his speech he had said that evidence given before the Departmental Committee in January contained statements to the effect that the present duty on strips was insufficient and penalised the process of manufacture. If that were so, how could the statement be reconciled with his claim to have originally suggested the tax in April? Perhaps the Financial Secretary would be able to explain this discrepancy between the statements of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. After a careful perusal of the evidence given before the Departmental Committee, he had been unable to trace any suggestion that there was an insufficient duty on strips under our old law. Curiously enough the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that such suggestions as were made were not made by Mr. Gallaher. If there was any ambiguous phrase used in the whole course of the proceedings that was used by Mr. 378 Gallaher only. Mr. Gallaher, speaking about the United States, said that they took very good care in that country to tax everything, so as to protect their own manufactures and industries. That was the only possible suggestion of duty in the whole course of the evidence. The other witnesses all used arguments tending in the direction of favouring the importation of leaf and giving a drawback. Mr. Gallaher used the same argument as to encouraging the importation of leaf, but he said that if they were going to give too much drawback the importers would make money out of the returns. Outside of Mr. Gallaher's evidence, so far as he had been able to read the Report, there was not a single suggestion made that there should be a differentiation of the duties on the two classes of tobacco. Granting that the argument of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was true that an equal tax would penalise manufacturers in connection with the process of stripping, still he asked why 3d. and not ½d.? His own evidence, given in answer to a Question by the hon. Member opposite, representing one of the Divisions of Liverpool, showed that the true difference of duty between leaf and strips should not be more than ½d. He hoped the Committee would reject the clause.
§ MR. WINSTON CHURCHILL,at 12.25, asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he would consent to report Progress immediately after the present clause was disposed of.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINdeclined to give any such undertaking, as it would be to the general convenience that the Committee should be able, to proceed with the income-tax proposals 379 at the next sitting. But he would be willing to report Progress after Part I. was agreed to.
§ MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid that Clause 4 (Continuance of additional Customs duty and drawbacks on tobacco, beer, and spirits) raised a totally different matter from the one they had been discussing. It raised the question of the war duties, and whether these taxes should be continued in the same form.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid it was a matter of indifference whether they took Clause 4 and 5 to-night or not. He would not ask the House to proceed beyond Clause 3, on which he understood there would be no long prolonged discussion.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 160; Noes, 94. (Division List No. 247.)
381| AYES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Gardner, Ernest | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Gordon, Hn.J.E.(Elgin&Nairn) | Martin, Richard Biddulph |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. |
| Arnold-Forster,Rt.Hn.Hugh O. | Graham, Henry Robert | Maxwell,W.J. H. (Dumfriessh.) |
| Arrol, Sir William | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Milner, Rt.Hn. Sir Frederick G. |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Greene,Sir E.W(B'rySEdm'nds | Molesworth, Sir Lewis |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.) | Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.) |
| Balfour, Rt.Hon. A. J.(Manch'r | Grenfell, William Henry | Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds | Gretton, John | Morpeth, Viscount |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Morrell, George Herbert |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Hambro, Charles Eric | Morrison, James Archibald |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Hardy, Laurence (Kent,Ashf'rd | Mount, William Arthur |
| Bill, Charles | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. |
| Bingham, Lord | Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th) | Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute) |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Haslett, Sir James Horner | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens |
| Bond, Edward | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Heath,Arthur Howard (Hanley | Pease,Herbert Pike (Darlington |
| Butcher,,John George | Heath, James (Staffords., N.W. | Percy, Earl |
| Campbell, J.H.M.(Dublin Univ. | Heaton, John Henniker | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Helder, Augustus | Plummer, Sir Walter R. |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Hope, J.F.(Sheffield,Brightside | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire | Howard, Jn. (Kent, Faversham | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.J.A(Worc. | Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil | Pym, C. Guy |
| Chapman, Edward | Hunt, Rowland | Ratcliff, R. F. |
| Clive, Captain Percy A. | Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred. | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Coates, Edward Feetham | Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton | Ridley, Hon. M.W.(Stalybridge |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Kerr, John | Ridley, S.Forde (Bethnal Green |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Keswick, William | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Kimber, Henry | Round, Rt. Hon. James |
| Craig,Charles Curtis(Antrim,S.) | King, Sir Henry Seymour | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Lawrence, Sir Jos. (Monmouth) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Davenport, William Bromley- | Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks., N.R. | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham) | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) |
| Dimsdale, Rt.Hn. Sir Joseph C. | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Smith,H.C(North'mb.Tyneside |
| Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S. | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers | Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. | Spear, John Ward |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Long, Rt.Hn.Walter(Bristol,S.) | Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs. |
| Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart | Lowe, Francis William | Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart |
| Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton | Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Fergusson, Rt.Hn.SirJ.(Manc'r | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Tomlinson, Sir Win. Edw. M. |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth | Tuff, Charles |
| Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Macdona, John Cumming | Valentia, Viscount |
| Forster, Henry William | MacIver, David (Liverpool) | Vincent,Col.Sir C.E.H(Sheffield |
| Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S.W.) | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) |
| Galloway, William Johnson | M'Iver,Sir Lewis(Edinburh,W | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Webb, Colonel William George | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir |
| Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C.E(Taunton | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R. | Alexander Acland-Hood and |
| Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- | Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes. |
| Whiteley, H.(Asliton und.Lyne | Wylie, Alexander | |
| Whitmore, Charles Algernon | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) | Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Joicey, Sir James | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Allen, Charles P. | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire | Robson, William Snowdon |
| Asher, Alexander | Joyce, Michael | Runciman, Walter |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Kennedy,Vincent P.(Cavan,W. | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Kilbride, Denis | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Beaumont, Wentworth, C. B. | Labouchere Henry | Shackleton, David James |
| Boland, John | Lambert, George | Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) |
| Brigg, John | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
| Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) | Levy, Maurice | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Lewis, John Herbert | Sheehy, David |
| Caldwell, James | Lough Thomas | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Lundon, W. | Strachey, Sir Edward |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Lyell, Charles Henry | Sullivan, Donal |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Tennant, Harold John |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Thomas, D. Alfred (Merthyr) |
| Creamer, William Randal | M'Crae, George | Tomkinson, James |
| Cullinan, J. | M'Kenna, Reginald | Toulmin, George |
| Delany, William | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) | Markham, Arthur Basil | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Dobbie, Joseph | Murphy, John | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) |
| Doogan, P. C. | Nannetti, Joseph P. | White, Luke (York, E.R.) |
| Elibank, Master of | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Ellice.Capt E.C(SAndrw'sBghs | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.) | Wills, Sir Frederick |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.) |
| Fenwick, Charles | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) | O'Malley, William | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | O'Shee, James John | Woodhouse,Sir J.T(Huddersf'd |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) | |
| Harcourt, Lewis V.(Rossendale | Pirie, Duncan V. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. |
| Higham, John Sharpe | Power, Patrick Joseph | Herbert Gladstone and Mr. |
| Holland, Sir William Henry | Rea, Russell | William M'Arthur. |
| Horniman, Frederick John | Reckitt, Harold James |
Question put, and agreed to
§ Clause 3.
§ MR. SOARES (Devonshire, Barnstaple)moved, on behalf of the hon. Member for Halifax, the following Amendment—
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 2, line 11, to leave out the word 'May' and insert the word 'July.'"—(Mr. Soares.)
§ Question proposed, "That the word 'July' stand part of the clause."
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINexplained that the Amendment was both unnecessary and ineffectual
§ Amendment, by leave, Withdrawn.
382§ MR.SOARESmoved the following Amendment which he hoped would be accepted in the interests of good draftsmanship.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 2, line 14, to leave out Sub-section (2), and insert the words,—'Section two of the Finance Act, 1898, is hereby repealed, and in Section four of The Customs and Inland Revenue Act, 1887, the words "thirty-two per centum" shall be substituted for the words "thirty-five per centum."'"—(Mr. Soares.)
§ Question proposed, "That Sub-section (2) stand part of the clause."
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINexplained that the clause was drafted in the ordinary form, but he did not dispute the fact that the alteration possessed" 383 merits. He would, however, suggest to insert after the figures 1887 the words
§ "which relates to moisture in tobacco."
§
Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
After the figures '1887,' to insert the words 'which relates to moisture in tobacco.'"—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
§ Amendment, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINmoved to report Progress.
Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Committee do report Progress and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
§ MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid the Chancellor of the Exchequer had intimated that it was absolutely necessary to get rid of the Bill on the following night. On that side of the House they did not recognise that necessity, especially having regard to the fact that considerable time had been occupied by the consideration of a private Bill. He entered the protest in no hostile spirit, because the Chancellor of the Exchequer had met them very fairly.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINobserved that the arrangement with the hon. Gentleman and his friends provided that two or more clauses should be passed that night, but adverting to the observations and upon the amount of time still available for discussion, he ventured to assert that as much time had been devoted to this Bill as to the first discussion of the corn tax.
§ MR. WINSTON CHURCHILLdisclaimed any intention on the part of the Opposition to agree that the Committee stage of the Bill should be completed on the following night.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid that so far as he was personally concerned it was a matter of indifference whether they passed a stated number of clauses at that sitting. He had, however, to get the Bill through on the following night.
§ MR. WINSTON CHURCHILLsaid there might be a clear understanding on that point on the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his supporters, but if the right hon. Gentleman took it to be a clear understanding on their part—
* THE CHAIRMANThe hon. Gentleman is not entitled to discuss to-morrow's business. The question before the Committee is "to report Progress."
§ MR. WINSTON CHURCHILLI hope the right hon. Gentleman does not consider that there was any understanding with me.
§ Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.