Commons Sitting of 13 July 1904

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.

UNOPPOSED PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Skipton Water and Improvement Bill; Soothill Nether Urban District Tramways Bill. Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
De Trafford Estate Bill [Lords]; Ilford Urban District Council Bill [Lords]. Read a second time, and committed.
Tramways Orders Confirmation (No. 2) Bill [Lords]. Read a second time, and committed.
PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL.
Report from the Committee that they had divided the Bill into two Bills:—
Pier and Harbour Provisional Order (No. 2) Bill (comprising the Hartlepool and Waterford Orders); and
Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill (comprising the Islay Order), pursuant to Standing Order 208A, brought up, and read.
Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill. Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Orders confirmed] [Title amended]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill, as amended, to be considered to-morrow.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 10) BILL.
Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill, as amended, to be considered to-morrow.

PETITIONS.

  LICENSING BILL.
  Petitions against; from Aberchirder; Barnoldby le Beck; Barrow on Humber;
  1458
  Blackburn; Bozeat; Chorlton cum Hardy; Clacton on sea; Earl's Barton; Edinburgh; Enfield; Finedon; Heaton Mersey; Heaton Moor; Hounslow; Irchester; Levenshulme; Little Harrowden; Liverpool; London (N. W.); Louth; Lunesdale; Mangotsfield; New Brighton; Newcastle on Tyne (three); Oldbury; Ottery St. Mary; Pegswood; Reddish; Rosset; St. Margaret's; Scunthorpe; South Somercotes; Stafford; Stalling-borough; Sturminster Marshall; Welling-borough; Willington; Wimborne; Winterton; Wollaston; and Woodside; to lie upon the Table.

  LICENSING BILL.
  Petition from Bermondsey, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  STREET BETTING BILL [LORDS].
  Petition from Dundee, for alteration; to lie upon the Table.
  VALUATION BILL.
  Petition from Eastbourne, for alteration; to lie upon the Table.
  VOLUNTARY SCHOOLS ACT, 1897.
  Petitions for alteration of Law; from Barnsley; Jarrow; and Wood Green; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  PRISONS (ENGLAND AND WALES).
  Paper [presented 12th July] to be printed. [No. 173.]
  SEA FISHERIES REGULATION ACT, 1888.
  Paper [presented 12th July] to be printed. [No. 248.]
  COLONIAL REPORTS (ANNUAL).
  Copy presented, of Colonial Report, No. 420 (St. Helena, Annual Report for 1903) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  RAILWAY (CONTINUOUS BRAKES).
  Copy presented, of Return by Railway Companies of the United Kingdom for the six months ending the 31st December, 1903 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  GAS AND WATER WORKS FACILITIES ACT, 1870.
  Copy presented, of Report by the Board of Trade as to dispensing with the consents of the Melbourn Rural District Council and the Meldreth and Shepreth Parish Councils in the case of the Meldreth and Melbourn District Gas and Water Provisional Order [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 249.]
  GAS AND WATER WORKS FACILITIES ACT, 1870.
  Copy presented, of Report by the Board of Trade as to dispensing with the consent of the Little Stambridge Parish Meeting in the case of the Rochford Gas Provisional Order [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 250.]
  GAS AND WATER WORKS FACILITIES ACT, 1870.
  Copy presented, of Report by the Board of Trade as to dispensing with the consent of the Cheshunt Urban District Council in the case of the Waltham Abbey and Cheshunt Gas Provisional Order [by Act]; to lie upon the Table and to be printed. [No. 251.]
  SUPERANNUATION ACT, 1884.
  Copy presented, of Treasury Minute, dated 9th July. 1904, declaring that George J. Stuck, Skilled Labourer, Royal Laboratory, War Office, was appointed without a Civil Service Certificate through inadvertence on the part of the Head of his Department [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

  GOVERNMENT SHIPS BILL.
  Copy ordered, "of Memorandum explanatory of the Provisions of the Government Ships Bill."—(Mr. Pretyman.)
  Copy presented accordingly; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 252.]

  GAS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 2) BILL [LORDS].
  Copy ordered, "of Memorandum stating the nature of the Proposals contained in the Provisional Orders included in the Gas Orders Confirmation (No. 2) Bill Lords]."—(Mr. Bonar Law.)
  GAS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 3) BILL [LORDS].
  Copy ordered, "of Memorandum stating the nature of the Proposals contained in the Provisional Orders included in the Gas Orders Confirmation (No. 3) Bill [Lords]."—(Mr. Bonar Law.)
  GAS AND WATER ORDERS CONFIRMATION BILL [LORDS].
  Copy ordered, "of Memorandum stating the nature of the Proposals contained in the Provisional Orders included in the Gas and Water Orders Confirmation Bill [Lords]."—(Mr. Bonar Law.)
  WATER ORDERS CONFIRMATION BILL [LORDS].
  Copy ordered, "of Memorandum stating the nature of the Proposals contained in the Provisional Orders included in the Water Orders Confirmation Bill [Lords]."—(Mr. Bonar Law.)
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL [LORDS].
  Copy ordered, "of Memorandum stating the nature of the Proposals contained in the Provisional Orders included in the Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill [Lords]."—(Mr. Bonar Law.)
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 4) BILL [LORDS].
  Copy ordered, "of Memorandum stating the nature of the Proposals contained in the Provisional Orders included in the Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 4) Bill [Lords]."—(Mr. Bonar Law.)
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 6) BILL [LORDS].
  Copy ordered, "of Memorandum stating the nature of the Proposals contained in the Provisional Orders included in the Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 6) Bill [Lords]."—(Mr. Bonar Law.)
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Irish Degree of Bachelor of Arts.
  MR. MACVEAGH: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the total number of candidates from the Queen's Colleges of Belfast, Cork, and

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  Galway, and Magee College, Derry, who have taken the degree of B.A. at the Royal University during the past five years; and the total number from Kelvin House, Belfast, who have done so during the same period.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The Royal University is precluded from taking cognisance, by way of qualification, of the places of education of candidates for the B.A. Degree Examination. Candi-

  In 1899.

  In 1900.

  In 1901.

  In 1902.

  In 1903.

  Queen's College, Belfast

  29

  17

  17

  9

  13

  Queen's College, Cork

  4

  3

  4

  8

  3

  Queen's College, Galway

  7

  4

  7

  8

  7

  Magee College, Londonderry

  3

  4

  2

  4

  7

  Kelvin House, Belfast

  18

  19

  15

  25

  19

  Queen's College and Kelvin House, Belfast.

  4

  5

  6

  2

  2

  Queen's College, Belfast, and Magee College, Londonderry

  —

  —

  1

  1

  1

  Increase of Pauperism in the Large Parishes of Scotland.
  MR. ALEXANDER CROSS: To ask the Secretary for Scotland whether the Local Government Board are aware that, during the last ten years, there has been a steady increase in the number of outdoor and indoor poor in Some of the large burghal parishes of Scotland and a consequent increase in the cost of their maintenance; and whether, looking to the state of trade during these years, the Board will consider the subject and devise some means of arriving at the causes which have contributed towards the result by appointing a Departmental or other Committee to inquire into the conditions under which poor relief is granted in the different parishes in Scotland.
  (Answered by Mr. A. Graham Murray.) The attention of the Local Government
  dates for the degree when entering for the examination are requested, however, to state on their entry forms the names of any institutions at which they may have been prepared for the examinations, and from these statements the following returns have been made:—
  B.A. Degree.
  Candidates have passed the examination for this degree from the under-mentioned institutions as follows:—
  Board has been drawn to the increase of pauperism in the large parishes, and they are at present engaged in collecting information as to the causes.

  British Naval Display in the Streets of Rome.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he can state under what circumstances was a naval display carried out in the streets of Rome on Sunday, 19th June last; how many men of the Mediterranean squadron took part in it; who is responsible for the display; and had it the sanction of the Italian Government.
  (Answered by Mr. Pretyman.) The Admiralty have no information as to any naval display having been carried out in the streets of Rome on 19th June. The Commander in Chief reports that during the visit of the Fleet to Civita Vecchia,

  1463
  between the 15th and 22nd June, leave to visit Rome was given to all men of good character who wished to go there, and that large numbers availed themselves of the opportunity.

  Appointment of Telegraph Boys to Rural Telegraph Offices.
  MR. MANSFIELD: To ask the Postmaster-General whether it is proposed to appoint telegraph boys in all the rural postal telegraph offices; and, if so, whether, in view or the scale of remuneration received by rural postmasters, such appointments may either be made by the postmasters themselves or such messengers shall be selected from the postmaster's family wherever that is possible.
  (Answered by Lord Stanley.) It is not proposed to appoint regular telegraph messengers at all rural telegraph offices, but only at offices where they are found to be warranted. At offices where regular telegraph messengers are employed the boys are selected by the postmasters, subject to the approval of the district surveyor. At offices at which regular messengers are not employed it is not unusual for the delivery of telegrams to be made by members of the sub-postmaster's family.

  Teaching of Hygiene in Schools.
  DR. THOMPSON: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Education if his attention has been drawn to the recommendations of the deputation which waited, on Monday last, on the Marquess of Londonderry at the Education Office, on the importance of teaching elementary hygiene in the public schools of the country; and if, pending a comprehensive scheme of instruction in matters relating to public health, he will direct that the ten sanitary laws detailed by the President of the British Medical Association shall be tabulated and hung up in a prominent place in each school in Great Britain and Ireland.
  (Answered by Sir William Anson.) The Board of Education are considering by
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  what methods the satisfactory teaching of elementary hygiene may be best secured in the schools of the country. Amongst other things it is essential that the instruction should be given by properly qualified teachers. I am doubtful as to the educational value of the method proposed by the hon. Member. I must remind the hon. Member that the powers of the Board only extend to England and Wales.

  Local Education Fund—Use of Surplus Money where Endowment Exceeds Education Rate.
  LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICE: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Education if they have decided what course should be pursued by a county council under Section 13, Sub-section 2, of the Education Act, 1902, when the moneys arising in any given year from an endowment, which is to be credited in aid of the rate in any parish, exceed the total annual amount raised by rate for the purposes of public elementary education in that parish; and if the Education Office has decided that the overseers of the parish are to apply the residue in aid of purposes other than education for which the poor rate is levied in the parish.
  (Answered by Sir William Anson.) The Board have not had occasion to give a decision on the point referred to in the question, though it has been incidentally raised in a few cases, and it is doubtful whether they are competent to decide it authoritatively. As at present advised, the Board consider that the proper course is for the trustees to apply to the Board, who will consult with the loc education authority, for a scheme under the Charitable Trusts Acts to provide for the application of the surplus income remaining after defraying the education rate in the parish or parishes served by the school to educational purposes.

  Naval Works at Rosyth.
  MR. SCOTT MONTAGU: To ask the Civil Lord of the Admiralty whether the projected naval works at Roseneath are being

  1465
  pushed forward or are stopped; and whether, in view of the fact that Roseneath forms the only naval base in the North Sea, such works will be continued with the least possible delay.
  (Answered by Mr. Arthur Lee.) I presume Rosyth is intended. Good progress is being made with the necessary preliminary works and preparation of plans and estimates. It has not yet been possible to present a total Estimate to Parliament, and consequently money is not yet available for pushing on with the main scheme. No delay, however, has occurred, and there has been no change of policy with regard to this project.

  German Officers' Visit to Devonport—Photographing Fortifications, Etc.
  MR. SCOTT MONTAGU: To ask the Civil Lord of the Admiralty whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that German naval officers have photographed the fortifications and the dockyard at Devonport; and, if so, whether he proposes to take any action in the matter in the interests of our national defence; and will he say whether like facilities are granted to British officers in German naval ports.
  (Answered by Mr. Arthur Lee.) Nothing is known of the occurrence referred to in the Question, but if anything of an improper nature bad taken place it would have been reported by the responsible authorities.

  National Expenditure for 1903–4.
  MR. MCKENNA: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can give under the customary headings the actual expenditure for the year ending 31st March, 1904.
  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) It is not clear what the hon. Member means by "actual expenditure under the customary headings." "Actual expenditure" is generally held to be the same as audited expenditure, the figures for which will not be available until the Appropria-
  1466
  tion Accounts are published next spring. The amounts issued from the Exchequer to meet expenditure for last year have been given in the Budget Statement under the main heads, and the amounts so issued to the various Civil Departments are given in the Annual Finance Accounts, which are being delivered to-day.

  Revenue from Additional Duty on Goods Removed from Bond.
  MR. LOUGH: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the total amount of revenue derived by the Customs from the charge of 5s. additional per £100 of duty paid on dutiable goods removed from a Customs warehouse, and what amount of the total sum was realised from each article in the financial year ending the 31st March, 1904.
  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) The total amount derived by the Customs in the financial year 1903–4 from the statutory charge of 5s. per £100 of duty paid on goods cleared from Customs warehouses was £30,797, made up as follows, viz.:—

  £

  On chicory, cocoa, and coffee

  793

  On dried fruit

  876

  On spirits, foreign

  8,218

  On tea

  16,259

  On wine

  1,774

  On sugar, etc.

  2,877

  Total

  £30,797

  NOTE.—These amounts do not include the charge on Customs goods cleared from Excise warehouses (which are not referred to the Question), nor do they include £14,151 derived from the similar statutory charge of 2s. 6d. per cent, on tobacco.

  Tibet Expedition—Belief of India of Cost Involved.
  MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether, looking to the Imperial

  1467
  character which the expedition into Tibet has assumed, he will move His Majesty's Government to relieve India of the cost involved.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The Answer is in the negative. The Tibetan question is essentially an Indian interest.

  Salary of Dr. Collins, of Ballinasloe.
  DR. THOMPSON: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will explain why the Local Government Board for Ireland have refused to sanction the increase of salary granted to Dr. Collins, of Ballinasloe, seeing that this officer has had thirteen years service without a complaint; that his salary is now £15 a year less than it was when he was first appointed; and that the Local Government Board have quite recently sanctioned a salary of £150 to a medical officer of a much smaller dispensary district in the same neighbourhood.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) In answer to the first part of the Question, I refer to my reply to the similar Question of Wednesday last by the hon. Member for East Galway.† Dr. Collins was appointed dispensary medical officer in 1891, at a salary of £112 a year. His present salary is £120 a year, together with a small annual payment as compensation for reduction of income arising out of the operation of the Local Government Act of 1898. The district referred to at the end of the Question is wholly rural, and affords small Scope for private practice. Dr. Collins resides in the town of Ballinasloe, and has good opportunities for private practice.

  Salary of Teacher of Victoria Street National School, Lurgan.
  COLONEL SAUNDERSON: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Com-
  † See page 800.
  1468
  missioners of National Education have received a statement of the case of the principal teacher of Victoria Street National School, Lurgan (District 11, Roll No. 15,020), in which it is shown that the new system of fixed salaries, introduced in 1900, owing to the rapid increase in the average attendance, has resulted in a loss to the teacher of over £60 in the first three years, and that a teacher of the same service, standing, and qualifications, and the same average attendance, but whose attendance during the three years was normal, would receive about £900 more in salary before being pensioned than the teacher of the Victoria Street School; and, if so, whether in view of the Statement of the Resident Commissioner that no teacher would lose a single penny by the change, the Commissioners, under Rule 200 (III.) or other wise, will give special consideration to this case, and increase the remuneration of the teacher to correspond with the increased average attendance of the school.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The Commissioners do not admit the loss of income alleged by this teacher. On fixing his income under the present system the fact that the average attendance at the School was increasing rapidly was taken into consideration, and he was allowed not merely the average of his receipts for the three years ended 31st March, 1900, as his initial salary under the new system, but he got the benefit of Rule 200 (III.) and was allowed a "normal" income of £100 per annum. This "normal" income represented the estimated value of his position at the time on the supposition that the old system of payments remained in force. The abolition of the old system of payments has resulted in an increase of the actual payments to national teachers generally of more than £40,000 per annum in three years. The teacher referred to was promoted to the second grade from 1st April, 1903, which carried with it an increased salary of £7 per annum. He is eligible for further triennial increases of good-service salary

  1469
  according to the prescribed scale and also for promotion, by which it is possible for him to reach an income of £175 per annum exclusive of the annual capitation payment from the school grant under the Irish Education Act, 1892, which payment is augmented by any increase in his average. His prospects are much better in every way under the new system than under the old. No such unqualified promise was given by the Resident Commissioner in regard to the salaries of teachers as stated in the Question.

  Army—Men with less than Five Years to serve.
  CAPTAIN NORTONTo ask the Secretary of State for War if he can give the number of men with less than five years yet to serve in the following regiments, batteries, and battalions which will proceed to India during the next trooping season: 13th Hussars; 19th, 20th, and 28th Batteries of Field Artillery; 62nd, 64th, 77th, and 81st Companies of Garrison Artillery; 2nd Battalion Royal Fusiliers; 2nd Battalion Cheshire Regiment; 1st Battalion Royal Irish Regiment; 1st Battalion Highland Light Infantry; 1st Battalion Manchester Regiment; and also, as regards drafts, for every regiment, battery, and battalion in India that will require them during the next trooping

  Royal Artillery Drafts.

  Draft required.

  Number in unit supplying drafts with more than five years yet to serve.

  Royal Horse Artillery

  Group 1

  71

  250

  Group 2

  104

  185

  Royal Field Artillery

  Group 1

  79

  264

  Group 2

  165

  315

  Group 3

  141

  316

  Group 4

  111

  401

  Group 5

  148

  265

  Group 6

  156

  263

  Group 7

  113

  426

  Royal Garrison Artillery (including Mountain Batteries)

  Group 1

  159

  100

  Group 2

  148

  185

  Group 3

  136

  163

  Group 4

  154

  107

  Group 5

  114

  129

  Group 6

  121

  123

  season, and which drafts will be found from their groups in the case of cavalry and artillery, and in the case of infantry from their linked battalions, can he state the proportion of men with more than five years yet to serve.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Arnold-Forster.) The number of men with less than five years yet to serve in the following regiments, batteries, and battalions which will proceed to India during the next trooping season, is as follows:—

  13th Hussars

  401

  19th Battery Royal Field Artillery

  134

  20th Battery Royal Field Artillery

  114

  28th Battery Royal Field Artillery

  124

  No. 62 Company Royal Garrison Artillery

  102

  No. 64 Company Royal Garrison Artillery

  106

  No. 77 Company Royal Garrison Artillery

  127

  No. 81 Company Royal Garrison Artillery

  158

  2nd Battalion Royal Fusiliers

  537

  2nd Battalion Cheshire Regiment

  515

  1st Battalion Royal Irish Regiment

  708

  1st Battalion Highland Light Infantry

  809

  1st Battalion Manchester Regiment

  639

  The number of men with more than five years to serve in each unit or group finding Indian drafts this trooping season, and the draft required in each are as follows:—

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  Cavalry and Infantry Drafts.

  Draft required.

  Number in unit supplying drafts with more than five years yet to serve.

  6th Dragoon Guards

  55

  111

  1st Dragoons

  36

  76

  3rd Hussars

  37

  167

  4th Hussars

  66

  139

  Royal Scots

  2nd Battalion

  224

  135

  Royal West Surrey

  1st Battalion

  200

  99

  Royal Lancaster

  1st Battalion

  169

  74

  Royal Warwickshire

  1st Battalion

  207

  77

  Liverpool

  1st Battalion

  199

  78

  Lincolnshire

  1st Battalion

  225

  94

  Suffolk

  2nd Battalion

  27

  112

  Somersetshire Light Infantry

  1st Battalion

  188

  83

  West Yorkshire

  1st Battalion

  191

  89

  East Yorkshire

  1st Battalion

  207

  103

  Bedfordshire

  1st Battalion

  270

  69

  Leicestershire

  1st Battalion

  105

  169

  Yorkshire

  2nd Battalion

  197

  94

  Royal Scots Fusiliers

  1st Battalion

  263

  77

  Royal Welsh Fusiliers

  2nd Battalion

  199

  81

  South Wales Borderers

  1st Battalion

  270

  74

  King's Own Scottish Borderers

  2nd Battalion

  223

  39

  Scottish Rifles

  1st Battalion

  201

  70

  Gloucestershire

  1st Battalion

  156

  57

  East Lancashire

  2nd Battalion

  285

  88

  East Surrey

  2nd Battalion

  158

  141

  West Riding

  2nd Battalion

  194

  68

  Royal Sussex

  1st Battalion

  92

  217

  South Staffordshire

  2nd Battalion

  185

  101

  Dorsetshire

  1st Battalion

  194

  76

  South Lancashire

  1st Battalion

  259

  99

  Welsh

  2nd Battalion

  232

  63

  Royal Highlanders

  2nd Battalion

  93

  91

  Oxfordshire Light Infantry

  1st Battalion

  124

  124

  Essex

  1st Battalion

  111

  105

  Northamptonshire

  1st Battalion

  266

  65

  Shropshire Light Infantry

  2nd Battalion

  126

  52

  Middlesex

  1st Battalion

  197

  62

  King's Royal Rifles

  2nd Battalion

  107

  84

  Wiltshire

  1st Battalion

  225

  90

  North Staffordshire

  2nd Battalion

  165

  112

  York and Lancaster

  1st Battalion

  192

  76

  Durham Light Infantry

  1st Battalion

  185

  62

  Seaforth Highlanders

  1st Battalion

  80

  78

  Gordon Highlanders

  2nd Battalion

  168

  110

  Royal Irish Rifles

  1st Battalion

  195

  88

  Royal Irish Fusiliers

  2nd Battalion

  319

  97

  Connaught Rangers

  2nd Battalion

  147

  119

  Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders

  2nd Battalion

  190

  90

  Royal Munster Fusiliers

  1st Battalion

  176

  142

  Military Operations in Northern Nigeria.
  DR. FARQUHARSON: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the further despatch, expected two months and a half ago at an early date, has been received; and whether he can make public the details of the military operations which resulted about a year ago in the capture of Burmi in Northern Nigeria, and the death of the ex-Amir of Sokoto.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) The publication of the details of the military operations in question is at present under consideration.

  Crime in Ceylon—Transportation instead of Capital Punishment.
  MR. SCHWANN: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will consider the advisability of substituting transportation to the Andaman Islands in cases of murder and serious crime in Ceylon, in view of the increase in cases of murder and manslaughter, as proved by Major de Wilton's Report on Prisons, Colombo, in his official Report, as various authorities have declared that such transportation would prove a greater deterrent than the taking of life.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) The question of transporting convicts from Ceylon to the Andaman Islands has been raised on various occasions; and though I will give the matter further consideration I am not, as at present advised, prepared to reconsider the decision of my predecessors, which has been adverse to the proposal.

  Construction of Malay Peninsula Railway.
  MR. HENNIKER HEATON: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether a convention has been concluded with the Sultan of Johore for the construction by the Federated Malay States of the last section of the Malay Peninsula private line of railway from a point on the main land opposite Penang to a point opposite Singapore; and, if not, whether an arrangement, described by Sir Frank Swettenham, of such vital importance to the Straits Settlements and the Protected Malay States, will be much longer delayed.
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  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) A convention providing for the construction by the Federated Malay States of a railway through Johore in continuation of the main trunk line through those States was signed on the 11th instant.

  QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

    Admiralty Contractors and Trades Unionism.
    MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSE: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he will make inquiry into the alleged discharge by Messrs. Lysaght, of Bristol, Government contractors, of workmen on account of their membership of a trade union, during the continuance of a running contract; and whether, if this be so, it is not a violation of the pledge given by Sir John Hibbert and the hon. Member for Poplar, on behalf of the Government, on 3rd August, 1893, in interpretation of the Fair Wages Resolution.
    THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. PRETYMAN,): Inquiry has been made and Messrs. Lysaght state that the discharges referred to were due to shortness of orders, but that a preference was shown to non-union men. It is difficult to say whether this constitutes any breach of the undertaking referred to in the second part of the Question, but the Admiralty are prepared to do what they can to prevent any preference being shown by contractors as between unionists and non-unionists.
    MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSE: May I ask the hon. Gentleman whether on behalf of his Department he will make inquiry, or rather cause inquiry to be made, into the facts which are alleged in the Question, viz., that unionists were discharged on account of their membership of a trades union. I am prepared to bring evidence in support of that.
    MR. PRETYMAN: Any evidence the hon. Member desires to put before the Admiralty will have most careful consideration, and inquiry will of course be made.
    MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: What has been the form of the inquiry? Has it been personal or by correspondence?
    MR. PEETYMAN: AS I indicated in my Answer, Messrs. Lysaght have been asked for an explanation, and the one they supplied I have communicated to the House.
    MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: If my hon. friend brings evidence, as he says he is prepared to do, will the hon. Gentleman make personal inquiry?
    MR. SHACKLETON: And will he make inquiry from the officials of the unions to which the men discharged belong?
    MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The hon. Member has said he will make inquiry.

    War Office Contractors and Trades Unionism.
    MR. CHAELES HOBHOUSE: I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he will make inquiry into the alleged discharge by Messrs. Lysaght, of Bristol, Government contractors, of workmen, on account of their membership of a trade union, during the continuance of a running contract; whether, if this be so, it is a violation of the pledge given by Sir John Hibbert and the hon. Member for Poplar, on behalf of the Government, on 3rd August, 1893, in interpretation of the Fair Wages Resolution.
    THE FINANCIAL SECEETAEY TO THE WAE OFFICE (Mr. BROMLEY DAVENPORT,): Inasmuch as no instructions were issued to the War Office consequent upon the debate referred to, it would appear that the promise then given was not intended to apply to the War Department. The Department, however, does not recognise nor approve of any preference for or against trades unionists as such, and I am willing to agree that measures shall be taken to prevent contractors engaged upon War Office work from dismissing men solely for the reason that they are or are not members of a trade union.

    Army Horses and Epizootic Lymphangitis.
    MR. CHAELES HOBHOUSE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether horses belonging to the Woolwich Garrison are suffering or have recently suffered from epizootic lymphangitis; and whether it is proposed to employ any of the horses from this garrison on manœuvres.
    MR. BEOMLEY DAVENPOET: There are at present forty-four horses Suffering from epizootic lymphangitis in the Woolwich Garrison, of which twenty-seven are convalescent and seventeen still under treatment. No horses will be taken to the manœuvres from units which have had a case of lymphangitis within two months of the date of the commencement of the manœuvres.

    Chinese Coolies in the Transvaal-Desertions from the Compounds.
    MR. HEEBEET SAMUEL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many Chinese coolies have deserted from the Transvaal mines on which they were employed; whether all who escaped have been arrested; whether any have been charged before a magistrate, and whether any punishments have been inflicted; whether any persons have been charged, under the provisions of the Labour Importation Ordinance, with the offence of harbouring or concealing an escaped labourer; and, if he has no information on these points, whether he will ask Lord Milner for particulars.
    The following Question also appeared on the Paper—
    DR. MACNAMAEA: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is now in a position to make any statement relative to the desertion of two Chinese coolies from the New Comet Mine at Johannesburg, and the desertion of fifteen coolies on the way to Pretoria; and, if not, whether he will ask for particulars from Lord Milner.
    THE SECEETAEY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. LYTTELTON,): I have not received information on these points, but I have already stated that I will ask Lord Milner for particulars.
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: When will the right hon. Gentleman ask Lord Milner for particulars? I have been asking that for the last ten days.
    MR. LYTTELTON: The letter was written yesterday.

    Treatment of Chinese Coolies on Landing in South Africa.
    DR. MACNAMARA: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he has yet received the despatch from Lord Milner, asked for by cable on 23rd June, relative to the arrival and landing at Durban of coolies from the steamship "Tweeddale" and their transmission to Johannesburg; and, if so, whether he will state the terms of Lord Milner's report.
    MR. LYTTELTON: I have not yet received the despatch in question.
    DR. MACNAMARA: When may we expect it?
    MR. LYTTELTON: In about a month from the 25th June.

    Administration of Native Affairs in the Transvaal.
    SIR CHARLES DILKE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Department of Native Affairs in the Transvaal is now being reduced; whether the services of three out of six Native Commissioners have been dispensed with; and whether the functions of the Native Commissioners are being entrusted to the resident magistrates; and, if so, will he state what steps His Majesty's Government took before sanctioning these arrangements to satisfy itself that they are not prejudical to the interests of the native population in the Transvaal.
    MR. LYTTELTON: Owing to the necessity of dealing with a large native population scattered and unsettled by war, a larger establishment was created at first than will be required in normal conditions, and, to avoid overlapping, some reductions are taking place. The necessity of sympathetic administration by magistrates fully
    1478
    qualified by experience is. I am aware, fully appreciated by Lord Milner.

    Tithe Reform in Macedonia.
    MR. HUGH LAW: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the schemes of tithe reform, stated to have been adopted by the Porte for application to certain villages in Macedonia, embrace control by the Civil Assessors or European officers.
    THE UNDER-SECRETARY or STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Earl PERCY,: Two schemes of tithe reform have been under consideration, but we are not aware that a final decision has yet been arrived at.

    Swiss Lace sold at Nice as Irish.
    MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the statement in the Nice Consular Report that lace made in Switzerland is sold at Nice as Irish-made lace; and whether he proposes to take any, and, if so, what steps to safeguard the interests of this Irish industry.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR,): I have seen a statement in the Report of His Majesty's Consul at Nice that Irish lace appears to be counterfeited at St. Gall in Switzerland. Inquiries will be made on the subject.

    Statistical Abstract of the United Kingdom.
    SIR JOHN LENG: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade why the Statistical Abstract of the United Kingdom for the year ending December, 1902, was only issued on 9th September, 1903; why the Abstract for the year 1903 has not yet been issued; and whether there is any prospect of its being available on an early day.
    MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The date of issue of the Statistical Abstract depends on the date of receipt by the Board of Trade of the particulars supplied to them for the purpose by other Departments, including the financial statements for the year ending 31st March. It is hoped

    1479
    that the Abstract may be published in August this year, and every effort will be made to expedite its issue.

    Borstal Convict Prison—Attack on Warders.
    DR. MACNAMARA: I beg to ask Home the Secretary of State for the Department whether his attention has been called to the circumstances attending the sentencing of a convict last Wednesday at Maidstone to twelve months further imprisonment with hard labour for an attack on a warder at Borstal Prison; whether he has noted the fact that the prisoner stated that the warder in question habitually kicked the food into the prisoner's cell; and that on resenting this, he, the prisoner, was beaten with staves by warders to an extent which necessitated the bandaging of his arm by the doctor; and whether, in view of this particular case, and of the frequent attacks on warders at, and attempted escapes from, Borstal during the last few years, he will order an inquiry into the whole question of the conduct of Borstal Prison.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOE THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. AKERS-DOUGLAS, Kent,: With regard to the first allegation to which the hon. Member refers, inquiry was made at the time and no reason was found for believing what the convict said as to the manner in which his food was served to him. As a matter of fact, the warder he assaulted was not in charge of his cell and did not serve his dinner. The convict's second allegation is incorrect. When brought into the prison after arrest he complained of pain in his arm, and a cold-water bandage was applied by the medical officer; but the injury, if any, was caused in the struggle to stop the assault and effect the arrest, and had nothing to do with the service of his food. Assaults on prison warders are unfortunately inevitable incidents of any large convict establishment where large bodies of criminals—many of them violent and desperate men—have to be kept in association under the control of a small body of warders. The assault to which the hon. Member refers was a murderous one, and could only be properly dealt with by being brought
    1480
    before a Judge of Assize. Though the situation of Borstal makes the number of attempts by convicts to escape somewhat larger than at other prisons, the reports of violence by convicts during the last ten years have been fewer there than at other convict prisons, and in my opinion no inquiry into the discipline is called for. I am satisfied that the administration of the prison is well-conducted.
    SIR ERNEST FLOWER: Was this convict at Borstal one of the special starred class?
    MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: I cannot say, but I will get the information.

    Birmingham Mint and Silver Coinage for the Crown Colonies.
    MR. BAYLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary of the Treasury what amount of silver coinage for the Crown Colonies has recently been struck at the Mint, Birmingham, and for what Colonies; and whether any commission has been paid on the above coinage to the Crown Agents for the Colonies.
    THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY (Mr. VICTOR CAVENDISH,: No silver coinage for the Crown Colonies has been struck at the Mint, Birmingham, for upwards of four years.
    MR. MARKHAM (Nottinghamshire,: Has any commission been paid to the Crown Agents?
    MR. VICTOR CAVENDISH: No, Sir. No coinage has been struck.
    MR. MARKHAM: Not copper coinage?
    [No Answer was returned.]

    Fraudulent Whisky.
    MR. MACVEAGH: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will consider the advisability of in future separating in the annual Revenue Returns the quantities of pot-still whisky distilled in Ireland and Scotland as distinguished from patent spirits distilled in Ireland, Scotland, and England, with a

    1481
    view to facilitating the work of inspectors in prosecuting under the Food and Drugs Act the owners of tied houses who fraudulently compel their tenants to sell English patent spirit as genuine Irish and Scotch whisky.
    MR. VICTOR CAVENDISH: The Returns of the Inland Revenue Department do not distinguish between pot-still and patent-still spirit, the difference being one that has no bearing upon the levying of duty; nor do I think that such information, even if obtainable in future, would facilitate identification of spirits after they have left the control of the Inland Revenue and when they are on sale by retailers.
    MR. MACVEAGH: Am I to understand that the Government actually do nothing to prevent the sale of English patent spirit as Scotch or Irish whisky?
    [No Answer was returned.]

    Whisky in Bond.
    MR. MACVEAGH: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if all home made spirits, whether Irish whisky, Scotch whisky, blended whisky, patent spirits made in Scotland, Ireland, or England, are permitted as plain British spirit; if the nature of the contents of all casks in bonded warehouses are known to the Revenue officials; and, if so, will he consider the desirability of stating on the permits which are attached by the officials to all casks leaving bond what the contents actually are.
    MR. VICTOR CAVENDISH: The Answer to the first paragraph of the hon. Member's Question is in the affirmative and to the second in the negative. Accordingly, the third point mentioned by him does not arise.

    Forest Gate Barrack School.
    MR. LOUGH: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board if he is aware that the West Ham Board of Guardians propose to purchase from the Poplar Guardians for the accommodation of the children at present housed in the West Ham Workhouse Schools, the already condemned barrack school at Forest Gate; and if he
    1482
    can give an assurance that such a step will not receive the sanction of the Local Government Board.
    THE SECRETARY TO THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. GRANT LAWSON, Yorkshire, N.R.,: I understand that the West Ham Guardians have been in communication with the Poplar Guardians on this subject, but I have not at present had to determine whether the proposed purchase should be sanctioned. If an application for sanction should be made to me I will give the matter careful consideration before arriving at a decision with regard to it.
    MR. LOUGH: Can the purchase be made without the sanction of the Local Government Board?
    MR. GRANT LAWSON: No, Sir.

    Wages in the Post Office—Report of the Bradford Committee.
    MR. NANNETTI: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether the Bradford Wages Commission Report will be laid upon the Table of the House before the 15th July.
    THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Lord STANLEY,): I propose to lay the Report of the Bradford Committee on the Table of the House on Friday.

    Irish Degree of Bachelor of Arts.
    MR. MACVEAGH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the total number of candidates from the Queen's Colleges of Belfast, Cork, and Galway, and Magee College, Derry, who have j taken the degree of B.A. at the Royal University during the past five years; and the total number from Kelvin House, Belfast, who have done so during the same period.
    THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM,): I have communicated this information to the hon. Member. It will also be printed with to-day's Votes.

    Queen's College, Belfast.
    MR. MACVEAGH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant

    1483
    of Ireland whether he can state the cost of the mosaics in the entrance hall of Queen's College, Belfast, and in the library, and of the organ placed in the examination hall; and whether, in view of the demand for further funds for science teaching and original research, he can state from what fund the cost of the mosaics and organ was defrayed.
    MR. VICTOR CAVENDISH: The pavement (not mosaic) of the entrance hall and library cost £29, charged to the Vote for the maintenance of the College. The organ was presented to the College by a Belfast family.

    Queen's College, Belfast, Scholarships.
    MR. MACVEAGH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant o? Ireland whether he can state if any scholarships have lapsed in Queen's College, Belfast, during the past tan years; and, if so, whether he can state their value and to what purpose the money thus accruing has been applied.
    MR. WYNDHAM: Occasionally scholarships are not awarded at Belfast College, as in the case of all Colleges and Universities. There is no available information of the number and value of such scholarships. The disposal of monies accruing through their non-award is strictly regulated by the College statutes.
    MR. MACVEAGH: Is the reason because there are not sufficient capable students?
    MR. WYNDHAM: That is one of the reasons.

    Estates Commissioners—Inspectors.
    MR. JOSEPH DEVLIN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state the number of inspectors employed under the Estates Commissioners, the provinces from which they have been taken; and whether, without exception, they are Protestants.
    MR. WYNDHAM: There are twenty-two inspectors on the staff of the Estates Commissioners, all of whom had previously been employed as assistant land commissioners. Eleven resided in Ulster
    1484
    at the time of their appointment as inspectors; seven in Leinster, and four in Munster. The Estates Commissioners have no knowledge of their religious denominations.
    MR. T. W. RUSSELL: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a Parliamentary Return has been issued, giving a list of the Commissioners, and that in each case the religion is stated?
    MR. WYNDHAM: I am not aware of that.
    MR. DELANY: If the religion is stated in the Return how is it the information has not been supplied to the right hon. Gentleman?
    MR. WYNDHAM: I am not aware that it is so stated.

    Lettir (Kerry) School.
    MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that in consequence of delay in producing the new plans for school building and of the poverty of the district, the work of erecting a school in Lettir, county Kerry, has been in abeyance for a number of years; and whether, in view of these circumstances, the National Board will contribute something more than the usual two-thirds of the cost, and thereby enable the manager to build a school under the old plans in accordance with the claims of the parents.
    MR. WYNDHAM: In this case the manager elected to postpone the erection of a school-house pending a decision on the question of the revision of the plans and estimates. The Commissioners offered to make a grant under the old regulations in March, 1902. They have no power to make a grant exceeding two-thirds of the estimated cost.

    Keelnabrach School, Kerry.
    MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the manager of the Keelnabrach School at Glenbeigh, county Kerry, reported to the National Board that the loft was in a

    1485
    dangerous condition, and applied for a,grant to build a new school in December, 1902; can he state why the grant was not given; and on whom the responsibility will rest in case an accident occurs, consequent on the condition of the present school building.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The manager applied for a grant for a new school-house. The Commissioners were prepared to make a grant under the old regulations, but he elected to await the issue of the expected new regulations. It is for the manager and other persons interested to adopt such precautions as may be needful for the Safety of the children in attendance at the school. No responsibility in this respect attaches to the Commissioners.

    Teaching of the Irish Language in Irish Schools.
    CAPTAIN DONELAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the fact that the teaching of Irish has been admitted into the ordinary programme in Irish national schools, the special payments which were made when it was taught as a special subject will still be given.
    MR. WYNDHAM: Special fees are paid for instruction in Irish as an extra subject outside school hours. The teaching of Irish during school hours in accordance with the programme issued in April last is no bar to the payment of such special fees.

    Case of Constable Anderson.
    MR. JOSEPH DEVLIN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will furnish the hon. Member for East Mayo with a certified copy of the evidence taken during the Court of inquiry into the charges against Constable Anderson, at Kiltimagh, in December last.
    The following Question on the same subject also appeared on the Paper—
    MR. JOSEPH DEVLIN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will lay upon the Table a copy of all Correspondence which has passed between the Government
    1486
    authorities in Dublin and Mr. Maurice, the solicitor for Constable Anderson, since the holding of the Court of inquiry in December last.
    MR. WYNDHAM: There is no precedent, so far as I can discover, for laying the proceedings of a Court of inquiry, or an appeal made to the Inspector-General by a solicitor on behalf of his client. I see grave objections to creating such a precedent and am not prepared to do so.
    MR. JOSEPH DEVLIN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is no precedent also for the condition ot things that exists in connection with this case?
    [No Answer was returned.]

    Irish Salt Firkin Butter Industry.
    MR. FLAVIN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the number of prosecutions, with the result, which have been instituted in Ireland for excessive moisture in salt firkin butter, where the analysis showed it did not exceed 20 per cent., since the Committee of last session, to whom the Butter Bill was referred, agreed to allow a maximum of 20 per cent, in salt firkin butter; and whether, seeing that the Butter Bill introduced this session contains the same provision, he will call the attention of the Irish Board of Agriculture and the police, acting as food inspectors, to the matter.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The number and results of such prosecutions are not officially recorded, and to obtain the information it would be necessary to communicate with the police throughout Ireland. Under existing statutory regulations where the proportion of water in butter exceeds 16 per cent., it is presumed, until the contrary is proved, that the butter is not genuine. The Department of Agriculture is aware of the proposal in the Bill referred to, to exempt Irish salt firkin butter from the 16 per cent, limit. But the hon. Member is doubtless aware that the Council of Agriculture by a majority of forty-seven votes to seven recently adopted a resolution to the effect that any such exemption,

    1487
    if made, would most injuriously affect the reputation of Irish butter generally. The Kerry County Council has also passed a somewhat similar resolution.
    MR. LUNDON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that on the 21st of last month a prosecution was instituted against a man at Pallas Grean for having 18 per cent. of moisture in his butter, and that the magistrates on the bench unanimously dismissed it?
    MR. WYNDHAM: I am aware that the case was dismissed on a technical point. I am also aware that a certain number of hon. Members representing certain districts in Ireland hold an opinion contrary to that held by a large number of hon. Members representing other parts of Ireland in regard to the question of moisture in butter—a question which I think can only be settled by legislation.
    MR. KILBRIDE: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the Consultative Board of the Agricultural Association—Sir H. Plunkett's Department—are trying to override the decision?
    MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The hon. Member is now arguing the matter.
    MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Limerick County Council and certain district councils have passed resolutions in favour of exempting salt butter from—?
    MR. SPEAKER: Order, order!
    MR. FLAVIN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the object of the circular of the Board of Agriculture is to deliberately kill the salt firkin butter trade?
    MR. SPEAKER: That is not in order.
    MR. FLAVIN: Nothing but creameries will do for Sir Horace Plunkett. I promise the right hon. Gentleman he will hear more of this.

    Donegal Homespuns.
    MR. HUGH LAW: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has
    1488
    been called to the sale both in this country and abroad of machine-made cloths of inferior quality as Donegal homespuns; and whether any steps are being taken to put a stop to this practtice.
    MR. WYNDHAM: Such sales would seem to constitute an offence, against the Merchandise Marks Act, 1887, and if any specific cases of the kind are brought under the notice of the Department, it will be prepared to take such action as it may be advised.

    Salters' Company's Trust at Magherafelt.
    MR. JOSEPH DEVLIN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that in 1899 the Salters' Company of London conveyed to certain trustees in Magherafelt, county Derry, the old Court-house and bridewell, the markets, and certain other property to hold in trust for the town of Magherafelt upon certain conditions; and that apart from an annual payment of £120 to two local schools and the handing over £100 to the Magherafelt Gas Company, no other disbursements have been made by the trustees; and whether, in view of the desire of the inhabitants that the money in the hands of the trustees should be spent for the benefit and improvement of the town, a local inquiry will be ordered in order to ascertain the conditions under whieh the trust was made over, its present value, and the best means of securing that it shall be administered for the benefit, and according to the wish, of the people of Magherafelt.
    MR. WYNDHAM: As far as I have been able to ascertain, the Salters' Company assigned certain property to trustees to be used for certain purposes. This trust has been faithfully carried out. I have no power whatever to institute such an inquiry as suggested, or to compel owners of property to dedicate it to purposes other than those to which they desire to devote it.

    Collierstown Evicted Tenant.
    MR. SHEEHY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether an evicted tenant, Frederick Morres, applied to the Estates Commissioners to be reinstated

    1489
    in his holding in Collierstown, county Meath; whether the farm is untenanted; and what steps, if any, have the Commissioners taken to meet his application.
    MR. WYNDHAM: An application has been received from this evicted tenant, and will be considered by the Estates Commissioners.

    Bangor (County Down) Post Office.
    MR. JOSEPH DEVLIN: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that discontent exists amongst the inhabitants of Bangor, county Down, with the post office accommodation there; and that representations have already been made to the postal authorities complaining of the inconvenience caused to the residents owing to the limited proportions of the present post office; and whether, in view of the needs of this growing community in the matter of post office accommodation, immediate steps will be taken to have a new building erected.
    LORD STANLEY: A representation was made early this year upon this subject by the Urban District Council of Bangor (county Down), when I pointed out to them that the office was provided as recently as 1901, and that the accommodation was still ample to meet the requirements of the public at normal times. I do not consider that a new office is necessary at present.

    Transvaal Administration.
    DR. MACNAMARA: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he can state when and how His Majesty's Government propose to give practical effect to the reply of the Colonial Secretary, on 20th May, to the Resolutions against Chinese labour of both branches of the Federal Legislature of the Commonwealth of Australia, namely, that His Majesty's Government adhere to the policy of treating the Transvaal as a self-governing colony so far as its internal affairs are concerned where Imperial interests are not involved.
    THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,: The policy to which the hon. Gentleman refers has
    1490
    been adhered to in the past and is being adhered to at the present.
    DR. MACNAMARA: Do I understand that the Transvaal is at the present time a self-governing colony?
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: No, Sir; that has never been asserted by the Secretary of State for the Colonies.
    DR. MACNAMARA: Will the right hon. Gentleman look at the despatch of 20th May, where the Colonial Secretary specifically makes that statement?
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: A self-governing colony? I think the hon. Gentleman is mistaken.
    DR. MACNAMARA: I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether his attention has been called to the despatch of 20th May, in which the Colonial Secretary says, "His Majesty's Government adhere to the policy of treating the Transvaal as; a self-governing colony."
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: From that sentence it is clear that it is not a self-governing colony.
    MR. MARKHAM: Will the Prime Minister wire to the Government of Australia to send to this House—
    MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! That does not arise on this Question.
    MR. MARKHAM: I think, Sir, you will see that it does, if you allow me to finish the Question.
    MR. SPEAKER: I am quite sure that it does not.

    The Colonial Office Vote.
    MR. JOHN ELLIS: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he can now state definitely when the Colonial Office Vote will be taken.
    MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he could not fix a date for the Colonial Vote, but he would give as long notice of any arrangement as he could.
    SIR HENRY FOWLERreminded the right hon. Gentleman that that Bench had asked that the Colonial Vote might be taken on Thursday, the 21st inst.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I think the right hon. Gentleman has put his supplementary Question under a misapprehension. Neither I nor the Bench opposite can foresee with certainty the course of business in the next few days. If the request is repeated when it can be foreseen, it will be treated, as I have always treated requests from that quarter, with the utmost consideration.

    Education (Defaulting Authorities) Bill.
    MR. MANSFIELD: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, instead of proceeding with the Education (Defaulting Authorities) Bill, he will consider the advisability of introducing a short measure giving to England and Wales the same conditions of popular control as are provided in the Scotch Education Bill.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The popular control given in Scotland to the local authorities carried with it, as one of its essential elements, the right to give out of the rates denominational education in school hours in what in England are provided schools. As I understand, the Opposition have scouted the idea of denominational religion being taught within school hours even at the cost of the denomination, and as I further understand the sole ground, if there be a ground, for passive resistance, is that it is alleged that under the existing Act denominational education is given at the cost of the rates. Therefore, if the Scotch system were introduced into England, it is manifest it would offend the Opposition as an organised body of public opinion, and it would do nothing to conciliate passive reisters.
    DR. MACNAMARA: May I ask the Prime Minister why Scotland is always to be treated as an educationally favoured nation?
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: If it be an educational favour to a nation to have denominational religion taught out of
    1492
    the rates, that is a privilege I shall be glad to extend to this country.
    MR. BRYCE: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the educational privilege that every community shall have a popularly-governed school in its area?
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: It depends on what conditions. The full popular control given in Scotland is, I understand, repulsive to the right hon. Gentleman's conscientious convictions.
    MR. BRYCEagain rose, but—
    MR. SPEAKERsaid he really thought this debate, for such it was becoming, must be continued on some other occasion.
    MR. BRYCEsaid he merely desired to make an explanation—namely, that he disclaimed the interpretation of the right hon. Gentleman.

    Army Reform—The Secretary for War's Statement.
    SIR A. HAYTERasked on what Vote the Secretary for War would make his statement on Army Reform?
    THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY (Sir A. ACLAND-HOOD,)said the statement of the Secretary of State for War to-morrow would be made on the War Office Vote, that being the desire, he understood, of hon. Members opposite. He hoped it would be possible to take Vote 8 afterwards, but he expected the discussion on the statement would occupy a considerable time.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: There are one or two points on that which I desire to put to the First Lord of the Treasury. Will the statement of the Secretary of State for War affect the question of the organisation of the War Office as well as the question of the organisation of the Army, which are two quite distinct matters? I have on many occasions, with the assent of the right hon. Gentleman opposite, requested that a delay should take place before the House is called upon either to pronounce its opinion or even

    1493
    to discuss the statement of the Secretary of State for War. The subject-matter of the statement must occupy a good deal of time, and I think it is only reasonable that there should be an opportunity for a full and well-informed discussion on the matter.
    SIR A. HAYTER: As the Militia may be affected, could not that Vote be put down to enable a discussion on a later day.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I quite agree with the right hon. Gentleman that it would be unreasonable to ask the House to confine the discussion of the statement of my right hon. friend to to-morrow alone. A second opportunity must clearly be granted. I do not think it would be desirable that that second discussion should be taken under conditions which might restrict its area and limit the field with which the Secretary of State might have to deal tomorrow. I cannot answer the right hon. Gentleman's Question as to the exact ambit of my right hon. friend's statement. I do not know whether he will refer in detail to War Office re-organisation, though I think it is exceedingly probable that he will refer to it. I think, however, I ought not to make any statement on that matter in the absence of my right hon. friend.
    MR. WINSTON CHURCHILLasked whether there would be another opportunity this session?
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Oh, of course.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: An early opportunity?
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Now observe. I am told that, under pains and penalties of all sorts, I must give an early opportunity for the discussion of the Colonial Vote, and now I am asked to give an early opportunity for the discussion of this matter. I will do my best, but I cannot do more.

    SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).
    Mr. HALSEYreported from the Committee of Selection: That they had discharged the following Members from the
    1494
    Standing Committee on Trade (including Agriculture and Fishing), Shipping, and Manufactures:—Mr. Baird and Mr. Hunter Craig, and had appointed in substitution, Mr. Seymour Ormsby-Gore and Mr. Edward Mitchell.
    Report to lie upon the Table.

LICENSING BILL [4th ALLOTTED DAY].
Considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
[Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]
Clause 5.
Amendment again proposed—
"In page 3, line 27, to leave out Sub-section (2)."—(Mr. Levy.)
Question again proposed, "That the words of Sub-section (2) to the word 'appointed,' in page 3, line 28, stand part of the clause."
THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir EDWARD CARSON,)explained that the delegation of powers by quarter sessions was the most convenient method of carrying out the functions of the county licensing committee abolished by the last clause. The power of appointment would be with quarter sessions, and there was no intention to interfere with that power; the Home Secretary would only make the rules under which the justices to whom the duties would be delegated would act as a standing committee. There seemed to be an idea that the Home Secretary was being given too wide powers in connection with the appointment of the committee. That was not so. He would only be able to lay down rules regulating the appointment; the actual appointment itself would be left to quarter sessions.
COLONEL LOCKWOODhoped that the hon. Member would not persist in pressing the Amendment. In early parts of the debate hon. Gentlemen opposite had found fault with the Government for limiting the discretion of the justices in quarter sessions, yet now they were asking the House to

1495
accept an Amendment which would prevent them handing over their business to a committee of men who would probably be experts, and consequently thoroughly well qualified to deal with licensing matters. He noted that hon. Members opposite were by no means agreed on this point.
MR. LEVYasked leave to withdraw the Amendment but it was refused.
MR. GALLOWAYthought the Amendment if carried would bring about a worse state of affairs than now existed, by subjecting the whole quarter sessions bench to pressure from political quarters with regard to the grant and renewal of licences. It was most desirable to avoid the introduction of Party politics.
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN, rising to a point of order, asked, was not the question simply whether the Amendment should be withdrawn?
THE CHAIRMANsaid several of the right hon. Gentleman's supporters having refused to allow the withdrawal, the discussion necessarily proceeded.
MR. GALLOWAYasked what would be the effect of the acceptance of the Amendment?
SIR EDWARD CARSON: The quarter sessions will alone operate.
MR. J. F. HOPEsaid he wished to put one Question to the hon. and learned Gentleman.
DR. MACNAMARAsaid, if it was competent for him to do so, he moved that the Question be now put.
THE CHAIRMANdid not accept the Motion.
MR. J. F. HOPEasked why the first part of the sub-section was optional and the second part mandatory?
SIR EDWARD CARSONreplied that in the opinion of the Government, the subsidiary duties mentioned ought to be delegated to the committee.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 193; Noes, 123. (Division List No. 226.)

AYES.

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

Fisher, William Hayes

Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc.

Fison, Frederick William

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Chapman, Edward

FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Clive, Captain Percy A.

Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon

Arrol, Sir William

Coates, Edward Feetham

Flannery, Sir Fortescue

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Flower, Sir Ernest

Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

Coghill, Douglas Harry

Forster, Henry William

Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

Colomb, Rt. Hon. Sir John C. R.

Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S. W.)

Bailey, James (Walworth)

Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

Galloway, William Johnson

Bain, Colonel James Robert

Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

Gardner, Ernest

Baird, John George Alexander

Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

Garrit, William

Balcarres, Lord

Dalkeith, Earl of

Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-

Baldwin, Alfred

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

Davenport, William Bromley

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds

Denny, Colonel

Graham, Henry Robert

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Dickinson, Robert Edmond

Greene, Sir E. W. (B'rySEdm'nds

Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

Dickson, Charles Scott

Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.)

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

Gretton, John

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

Groves, James Grimble

Bigwood, James

Doxford, Sir William Theodore

Gunter, Sir Robert

Bill, Charles

Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford)

Bingham, Lord

Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

Hare, Thomas Leigh

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

Heath, James (Staffords, N. W.

Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn

Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

Heaton, John Henniker

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Fardell, Sir T. George

Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

Bull, William James

Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

Hoare, Sir Samuel

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Hobhouse, Rt. Hn H. Somers't, E

Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ.

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Horner, Frederick William

Hoult, Joseph

Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

Muntz, Sir Philip A.

Spear, John Ward

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute)

Spencer, Sir E (W. Bromwich)

Hunt, Rowland

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Stanley, Hn. Arthur(Ormskirk)

Jameson, Major J. Eustace

Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset

Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

Myers, William Henry

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.)

Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

Newdegate, Francis A. N.

Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T.(Denbigh)

Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N.)

Stock, James Henry

Kerr, John

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Kimber, Henry

Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

Percy, Earl

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

Pilkington, Colonel Richard

Thorburn, Sir Walter

Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks., N.R.

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Tollemache, Henry James

Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham)

Plummer, Sir Walter R.

Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Tritton, Charles Ernest

Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

Pretyman, Ernest George

Tuff, Charles

Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Tuke, Sir John Batty

Long, Col.Charles W. (Evesham)

Randles, John S.

Tully, Jasper

Long, Rt.Hn. Walter (Bristol,S.)

Rankin, Sir James

Valentia, Viscount

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Rasch, Sir Frederic Came

Wanklyn, James Leslie

Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

Reid, James (Greenock)

Warde, Colonel C. E.

Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

Remnant, James Farquharson

Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C.E. (Taunton

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

Welby, Sir Charles G.E.(Notts.

Macdona, John Cumming

Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge

Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh)

Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H.(Yorks.)

M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

Majendie, James A. H.

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

Manners, Lord Cecil

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Martin, Richard Biddulph

Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.

Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F.

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

Maxwell,Rt.Hn.Sir H.E.(Wigt'n

Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

Young, Samuel

Maxwell, W.J.H. (Dumfriessh.)

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Younger, William

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Samuel, Sir Harry S. (Limehouse

Milvain, Thomas

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

TELLERS FOE THE AYES—Sir

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

Alexander Acland-Hood and

Morpeth, Viscount

Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

Morrison, James Archibald

Sharpe, William Edward T.

NOES.

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

Lough, Thomas

Allen. Charles P.

Duncan, J. Hastings

Lundon, W.

Asher, Alexander

Ellice,Capt E.C.(S Andrw's Bghs

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

Emmott, Alfred

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Benn, John Williams

Farquharson, Dr. Robert

M'Arthur, William J.(Cornwall)

Black, Alexander William

Fenwick, Charles

M'Crae, George

Boland, John

Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

M'Kenna, Reginald

Brigg, John

Flynn, James Christopher

M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

Broadhurst, Henry

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Markham, Arthur Basil

Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

Grey, Rt.Hon.Sir E. (Berwick)

Moulton, John Fletcher

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Burt, Thomas

Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Buxton, Sydney Charles

Helme, Norval Watson

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Caldwell, James

Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

Cameron, Robert

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

O'Doherty, William

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

Higham, John Sharpe

O'Dowd, John

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

O'Shee, James John

Clancy, John Joseph

Jacoby, James Alfred

Paulton, James Mellor

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Jones, William(Carnarvonshire

Pirie, Duncan V.

Crombie, John William

Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W.

Power, Patrick Joseph

Cullinan, J.

Kilbride, Denis

Rea, Russell

Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan)

Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.

Reckitt, Harold James

Delany, William

Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

Reddy, M.

Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries

Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

Leigh, Sir Joseph

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Leng, Sir John

Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

Donelan, Captain A.

Lewis, John Herbert

Russell, T. W.

Doogan, P. C.

Lloyd-George, David

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

1498

1499

Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

Shackleton, David James

Thomas, D. Alfred (Merthyr)

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

Tomkinson, James

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth

Sheehy, David

Wallace, Robert

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Soares, Ernest J.

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf'd

Sullivan, Donal

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

White, George (Norfolk)

TELLERS FOE THE NOES—Mr.

Tennant, Harold John

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Levy and Dr. Hutchinson

Question put, and agreed to.

MR. WORSLEY-TAYLORmoved that the rules governing the appointment of committees should be made by quarter sessions, subject to approval by the Secretary of State. He thought that, having regard to the large powers entrusted to quarter sessions, there was no reason why they should not formulate their own rules.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 3, line 29, after the word 'made,' to insert the words 'by them to be approved by a Secretary of State.'"—(Mr. Worsley-Taylor.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid the Government did not think the matter a very important one. If there was any feeling among hon. Members that these rules should be made by quarter sessions rather than by the Home Secretary, he would have no objection. He would say, however, that as the great majority of the rules under the Bill must necessarily be made by the Home Secretary, and as it was of great importance to have some kind of similarity in the various rules, he doubted whether there was any advantage in making the change. Still, if the hon. Member thought it worth while pressing the Amendment he would not oppose it.
MR. HENRY HOBHOUSEpointed out that the county licensing committee, although appointed and regulated by statute, had power to make rules regarding their procedure, and surely it was not unreasonable to ask that a body like the quarter sessions should have similar power. If it was desired to lay down universal rules as to the constitution of the committee, it should be done in the Bill itself. There was too much legislation attempted by Government Departments at present.
SIR ROBERT REIDsaid he preferred the BUI as it stood. The point was a small one and they had better pass to other questions in the consideration of which their time could be more usefully occupied.
MR. LLOYD WHARTON (Yorkshire, W.R.,suggested that quarter sessions should be allowed to make their own rules, provided that they submitted them to the Home Office for approval.
SIR EDWARD CARSON: I accept the Amendment.
MR. WHITLEYasked if it would be in the power of the quarter sessions to appoint on the committee magistrates interested in the trade.
SIR EDWARD CARSON: No, Sir.
MR. WHITLEY: Thank you.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 3, line 29, after the word 'Act,' to insert the words 'providing for the mode of appointment, number, quorum, and procedure of committees.'"—(Mr. Worsley Taylor.)
Amendment agreed to.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 3, line 29, after the word 'and,' to insert the words 'except in a county borough.'"—(Mr. Secretary Akers Douglas.)
Amendment agreed to.
MR. HELMEmoved to add words excepting also those non-county boroughs which have a separate commission of the peace and a population of over 25,000. He reminded the Committee that on the previous day the Government were good enough to grant powers with regard to

1501
new licences to magistrates in non-county boroughs. He now asked them to go a step further. A Committee of hon. Members sitting on both sides of the House had carefully gone into this question, and they found that out of 177 non-county boroughs having a separate commission of the peace there were many too small to have a separate compensation fund. It had therefore been decided to suggest that non-county boroughs with a separate commission of the peace and a population of over 25,000 should be entrusted with the entire control of the licensed houses within their boundaries. It was well understood that actual knowledge of a district was the foundation upon which successful local government was conducted. This was not a Party question, but administrative. It had been suggested that if this Amendment were conceded it would mean taking the gem out of its surroundings, and that the county area would be deprived of large sums which would otherwise be available for compensation. But was it not the fact that it was in the urban district that the over-plus of the licensed houses existed, rather than in the county districts? As the House had already accepted the principle of dealing with county boroughs apart from the administrative County areas of which they formed part, so he urged they should also accept the principle that local self government should be conceded to non-bounty boroughs with regard to licensing. He had put down an amendment to secure a provision for the automatic inclusion of other boroughs as their populations increased to 25,000. He strongly appealed to the Government to accept this Amendment.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 3, line 29, after the words last inserted, to insert the words 'or a borough having a separate commission of the peace and a, population of over twenty-five thousand.'"—(Mr. Helme.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
MR. HENRY HOBHOUSEhoped the Government before accepting this Amendment would consider the general position of county areas. It was the old story. First the Government made a concession to one class, then another class began to exert pressure, and, if this went
1502
on, the whole county area would be whittled away. This was not a question of jurisdiction, it was a question of money. He reminded the Committee that this was a question of administering a fund, and that the county would be left in an unfair position if the Government listened to many appeals for the exclusion of boroughs from the county area. The compensation fund would be largely raised from the boroughs, which the Amendment proposed to exclude from the area. The licensed houses in these boroughs were largely supported by country people. In some old-fashioned market towns there might be a congestion of licensed houses, but as their population did not reach 25,000 they would be left in the area, but there were other non-county boroughs steadily growing and thriving where there was no excess of licensed premises and these were to be taken out of the area. That was where the unfairness came in.
SIR ALBERT ROLLITdeclared that county boroughs were to enjoy this privilege on the basis of their local knowledge and administration, and he pointed out that there were no less than twelve county boroughs with populations of less than 25,000. Why should not Canterbury, he asked, be treated as an autonomous area, unless, of course, it was because it was in Kent? He reminded the Committee that they had the precedent of the Education Act where the population was fixed at 10,000; and, dealing with the objection that the area would not be sufficient for the purpose of raising an adequate compensation fund, he referred to the unanimous opinion of the non-county borough Members that the area would be sufficient. He hoped the point would be conceded by the Government.
MR. TREVELYAN (Yorkshire, W.R.,said that, in his opinion, the Amendment of his hon. friend did not go far enough. He thought that the argument of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Somerset was valid, and that reform was needed in non-county boroughs even more than in the large cities. Although they might not have a superfluity of public-houses, reform was necessary; and, therefore, they

1503
ought to be given autonomy. It was rather an arbitrary and unnecessary line that was drawn by his hon. friend in selecting a population of 25,000; and he would later propose that 10,000 be substituted. Under the Education Act autonomy was given to boroughs of that size for the purposes of secondary education. There were a large number of boroughs which felt very bitterly at being deprived of direct control over their own licences. He thought the Government would be well advised to offend as little as possible these important local authorities.
DR. HUTCHINSONsaid that difficulties would arise in many boroughs. For instance, part of Tunbridge Wells was in Kent and part in Sussex. It had a very efficient borough bench, and no complaint regarding it had been made. It was very hard that it had in one instance to apply to quarter sessions in Kent and in another instance to quarter sessions in Sussex. Such an anomaly ought to be put an end to. All they wanted was to allow those boroughs to work out their own salvation in their own way.
SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid it was difficult to draw the line in these cases. There might be no valid reason why a borough with 49,000 inhabitants should be treated differently to a borough with 50,000 inhabitants. But the line had to be drawn. The only question was the provision of a proper compensation area; and it was important that it should not be too small. If it were too small there would not be sufficient funds to effect a desirable reduction of licences. The Government went very carefully into the matter, and were very anxious to meet the views of the borough councils in the matter. The figures, however, showed that, if the Amendment were accepted, the amount of compensation available would in some cases be too small to be effective, while in other cases it would be more than adequate having regard to the existing number of public-houses, and would probably be more than would be used. The latter cases would, however, diminish the effectiveness of the fund in the county at large. Therefore, if the Amendment were accepted, in some
1504
cases the compensation area would be too small, and in other cases it would be too large, and it would reduce the fund available for the county generally. The only really feasible and practical way of setting up a compensation fund was by the means proposed in the Bill. Several representations had been made to the Government; and the Government had put back the licensing system in this particular, exactly as it was before. They had gone a step further, and had put down an Amendment providing for the representation of non-county boroughs. It was to insert—
"In page 4, line 8, after the word 'committees,' to insert the words 'of quarter sessions and for the constitution of those committees where requisite as standing committees, and also for the addition to those committees in the case of a county, of representatives of the justices of any boroughs within the county not being county boroughs, but having a, separate commission of the peace.'"
That would, he thought, meet the desire of the non-county boroughs. He could assure the Committee that the acceptance of the Amendment would render ineffective the compensation fund in many cases.
MR. LLOYD-GEORGE (Carnarvon Boroughs)said that he was very glad that the Government intended to make some provision for the representation of non-county boroughs. He intended, however, to move an Amendment giving the boroughs a statutory right to representation. If those boroughs were not represented at quarter sessions, the Court would be dealing with areas from which it had on representation. There was nothing in the Amendment mentioned by the Solicitor-General which would give non-county boroughs a claim to representation. Some of the worst cases in the country were the cases of little market towns, many of which had a public-house for every hundred of the population. These houses supplied fairs and markets on certain days, but for the rest they had to be kept going by the local population. If the borough justices had not the right of representation they would not be summoned. The average county justice looked down on the borough justice. He thought the hon. Member for the Ripon Division would agree to that.
MR. LLOYD WHARTONsaid he could assure the hon. Gentleman he never looked down on any one.
MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid it was not always those who had the right who looked down on people. Why should not the Solicitor-General put this right of representation into Clause 5 instead of Clause 6?
SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid that the Home Secretary would be empowered to make rules; but if the hon. Gentleman did not think that that was sufficient he would be prepared to introduce other words.
MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid the Amendment which he would suggest was: "When constituting the committee under this section every non-county borough having a separate commission of the peace shall be represented thereon."
SIR EDWARD CARSON: I should like to consider that, and I can assure the hon. Member I will try to meet him on Report.
SIR JAMES WOODHOUSE (Huddersfield)said there was a very strong feeling on this matter amongst the non-county boroughs because they considered the Bill deprived them of an autonomy they now possessed. They had always exercised the jurisdiction which the Bill sought to dispossess them of. There was no allegation that the magistrates had discharged their duties improperly or imprudently. It was therefore a strong thing on the part of the Government to bring in a Bill to deprive them of the jurisdiction they had. The reason given was that it might affect the distribution of the compensation fund which would be derived from the counties in which they were scheduled, but if there was any argument in that at all, it was in favour of maintaining the existing state of things. If there were redundant licences they would exist in these small boroughs and not in the Scattered country districts, and the larger amount of the contribution to the compensation fund in the counties would be derived from these boroughs and not from the other portions of the county. Scarborough, with a
1506
population of 33,000, would contribute £2,056 as a non-county borough population, but if the Amendment were agreed to the amount available for the Scarborough Quarter Sessions for compensation would be £773. Whether they were compensated on the basis of the proportion of population, the levy on licences, or on the assessable value, the result would be the same—they would only receive back a third of what they contributed to the fund. Under these circumstances he thought there had been no solid argument for removing from non-county boroughs the jurisdiction they possessed.
MR. FISON (Yorkshire, W.R.,as the representative of a non-county borough thanked the Government for the way in which the non-county boroughs had been treated. In the West Riding of Yorkshire there were a dozen non-county boroughs and he did not see how quarter sessions was to be kept an efficient body if they were constantly adding to their body the representatives of these non-county boroughs. He thought the present appeal from the licensing authorities of the non-county boroughs to the quarter sessions was the most efficient way of dealing with the matter.
MR. THEODORE TAYLORhoped the Government would go further than they had done. Knowing something about the small non-county boroughs in the West Riding of Yorkshire, he might say that there were many with over 25,000 inhabitants who would lose their jurisdiction. It was sought by this Amendment to confirm to these boroughs the jurisdiction they had hitherto possessed. At present the borough justices had no title to sit at quarter sessions. True, the Government had at last promised to give them some kind of representation at quarter sessions, but that was not enough. Knowing something of these non-county boroughs, he said the areas were large enough to form a compensation fund and would make a homogeneous area over which the compensation money could be spent. There was a very strong case in Lancashire and Yorkshire for this Amendment,

1507
and he put it to the Government it was only fair treatment to mete out to these areas. In his view the borough magistrates had as much right to sit in review at quarter sessions on their own decisions as had county justices. No doubt borough justices were looked down upon as inferior beings, but since the Local Government Act which created every chairman of an urban district council a county magistrate that objection against borough justices no longer held good. He should vote for this Amendment as a very necessary step in devolution. He hoped that, as in the case of other measures, such as the Education Act, the larger non-county boroughs of from 25,000 to 50,000 inhabitants would receive, what he regarded as a mere matter of justice, the consideration to which they were entitled.
SIR EDWARD GREYsaid that if the Amendment were accepted as it stood it would still leave in their anomalous and unsatisfactory condition some of the smaller non-county boroughs. He was one of those who, in regard to the Education Act, felt the great importance of not confusing the area by making exceptions within it. He saw the force of the Government contention that it was desirable to have a homogeneous and large area for dealing with compensation, but in this case community of interest and feeling would not be established between non-county boroughs and quarter sessions. There was to be no channel of communication between them, and they would be in some cases two almost hostile bodies—he meant hostile in the sense of entirely separate. If this Amendment were not accepted some means must be found of dovetailing one with the other. He was therefore glad to see that the Government had put down an Amendment with regard to representation. He thought the hon. Member opposite who had thanked the Government ought to have reserved his thanks. The Solicitor-General, it was true, hoped to meet this point on Report, but all he had on the Paper was that the Secretary of State "may" make rules. There was not even a direct instruction.
SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid this expression was always construed as a direction.
SIR EDWARD GREYthought it would be best to frame a direct instruction, and expressed the opinion that the only satisfactory way would be to insert words in Clause 5. He did not doubt the good faith of the right hon. and learned Gentleman, but he could not help his mind going back to what was said with regard to the time limit on the Second Reading, when the right hon. and learned Gentleman thought something might be done in Committee, and how that idea was carried out.
SIR EDWARD CARSON: What I said was that the question of time limit should be considered in Committee.
SIR EDWARD GREYsaid that the impression created by the remarks of the right hon. and learned Gentleman on the Second Reading of the Bill was that it would not only be considered, but considered with a view of admitting it into the Bill, but that there were difficulties in the way. The Bill was, however, being discussed under certain restrictions which might cause those difficulties to be disposed of somewhat summarily on Report.
MR LLOYD WHARTONthought the Opposition were showing a certain lack of gratitude inasmuch as representatives were to be introduced from boroughs which had never been represented before.
MR. HIGHAM (Yorkshire, W.R.,pointed out that hon. Members who opposed this Amendment were, to some extent, defeating their own purpose. It was contended that the Amendment would take out of the county area such an amount of value as would deprive the county of a large amount of its worth. But in non-county boroughs at the present time there was an exceedingly strong feeling against the deprivation to which they were subjected, and the feeling was so operating as to cause the non-county boroughs to force themselves into the position of county boroughs. In Accrington, one of the largest non-county boroughs in Lancashire, there

1509
was a very strong feeling that this work should be left to them. For years they had felt that the appeals to quarter sessions were really against them, and if the larger non-county boroughs were left out of the Bill the present feeling would be intensified. Under the proposal of the Government the boroughs of Nelson, with a population of 35,000, Accrington with a population of 45,000, and Darwen with a population of 40,000, would be in the position of children, and he appealed to the Government to consider the position of such non-county boroughs. It would be an easy matter for these non-county boroughs to add surrounding districts to their area, and the counties would then be deprived of a greater amount of value still. In the towns which he had mentioned much of the opposition to the Bill arose from the fact that they were being excluded from its action, and the opposition even of extreme temperance men would be greatly lessened by such a concession as that embodied in the Amendment.
LIEUTENANT-COLONEL PRYCE-JONESdrew attention to the fact that quarter sessions were represented by a large number of magistrates, many of whom did not reside in the district, whereas in the case of borough magistrates they did usually reside in the district. That fact, he thought, was a very strong argument why they should have a voice upon the committee appointed by the quarter sessions to consider licensing appeals. He had the honour to represent six boroughs, four of which had separate commissions of the peace. He made a strong appeal to the Government to include these boroughs. He did not see why all of them should not be represented, and he would support any proposal which would have that result.
MR. TREVELYANsaid he felt bound to move an Amendment to this Amendment. He was not at all satisfied with what the Government had said in regard to non-county boroughs. Many of the smaller non-county boroughs were as important as those having 25,000 of population, and on their behalf he would move to substitute 10,000 for 25,000 in the Amend-
1510
ment. There were many boroughs in Yorkshire under the limit of the Amendment, which were as much deserving of consideration as those large non-county boroughs which had been mentioned. He begged to move.
Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
"To leave out the words 'twenty-five' and insert the word 'ten.'"—(Mr. Trevelyan.)
Question proposed, "That the words 'twenty-five' stand part of the proposed Amendment."
MR. NUSSEYas representing one of the smallest county boroughs in the West Riding of Yorkshire, supported the Amendment. Non-county boroughs which had had a separate commission of the peace for many years felt they were being badly treated in the Bill. In the borough of Pontefract the magistrates had protested most strongly against the proposal of the Government to merge these smaller boroughs into the counties. He recognised the difficulty which would be placed upon the Government if this Amendment were accepted, because, if they made the area too small, in a great many cases the fund for compensation would be too small to be of much use. There were some small non-county boroughs, such as Newmarket, which were in two counties. What would be done with them? Would they be given two representatives, or none at all? He thought the simple way would be to allow every one of these Small boroughs to manage its own affairs. They would have ample funds at their disposal in most cases to deal with any reasonable reduction of licences. He hoped the Government would recognise the claim of these old non-county boroughs and give them fair and just consideration under the Bill.
SIR EDWARD STRACHEYsaid he desired to support the Amendment moved by his hon. friend behind him on the ground that 25,000 was too high. The hon. Member for Ripon seemed to think that there were a very small number of boroughs under 25,000 with separate commissions of the peace. That might be so in the North of England but was not the case in

1511
the West of England. In the large county of Somerset there was not one single borough which would be included by this 25,000 limit. It seemed ridiculous that a borough Which had the right to send a Member to Parliament should have no right of representation under this clause. He was sure the Home Secretary would recognise that there was a very strong feeling indeed in small non-county boroughs not only with a population of 25,000 but of 10,000 and under, that they did not like to be treated in this way. What would happen under this Bill was that the autonomy of the small non-county boroughs would be destroyed. He supported the area being 10,000 under the Education Act, and therefore he was absolutely consistent in this matter. As regarded the licensing question, it was only fair and right that there should be local self-government in the fullest sense. He certainly hoped his hon. friend would press this Amendment to a division, and he could assure the Committee that as regarded the West of England there was a strong feeling that the 25,000 limit was not of the slightest advantage to them.
MR. WORSLEY-TAYLORhoped the Government would not accept the Amendment. He was one of those who habitually sat at quarter sessions, and he ventured to think that if this Amendment were accepted it would go far to create very great difficulty in the administration of the Act. In the county of Lancashire there was a population of 4,300,000, and of that number 2,500,000 were in county boroughs, leaving 1,800,000 for the rest of the administrative county. So far as he could see from the census, there were no less than fourteen of these non-county boroughs, having separate sessions which had populations of 25,000 and over. The total population of these fourteen non-county boroughs with over 25,000 inhabitants was about 480,000. Therefore the result was that there would be taken out of the administrative county for the purpose of the compensation fund that figure of 480,000, leaving 1,300,000 instead of 1,800,000, and there would be in that county fourteen different sets of authorities for the purpose of the compensation fund. He thought as a matter of economical administration that it would
1512
be vastly better for the 1,800,000 and for the purposes of raising the compensation fund that they should be dealt with generally.
MR. EMMOTTappealed to the hon. Member for Elland to withdraw his Amendment, because it seemed to him to bring the whole question to a ridiculous point, and he was perfectly certain that there was not a ghost of a chance of it being carried. With regard to the other Amendment dealing with areas having a separate commission of the peace and 25,000 inhabitants, he thought a very strong case could be made out for it. He had not been convinced by the figures of the hon. Member opposite. If these boroughs were taken out of the county, the county only lost money; but the boroughs lost much more than money by being retained. Many of them were not ejusdem generis with the county around them. These boroughs hated the interference of quarter sessions because they were often a different class of population altogether, and they felt that the county justices did not understand the requirements of their localities. It was admitted that in some cases they lost financially, whilst in others they gained. He thought a very strong case had been made out for the Amendment inserting 25,000, and he hoped the hon. Member for Elland would withdraw his proposal in regard to boroughs of 10,000.
MR. COURTENAY WARNERsaid the argument of the last speaker showed exactly the same distrust of quarter sessions. These boroughs had their ancient institutions and a history older than that of quarter sessions, and consequently they did not like being interfered with by an outside body. Now the privilege they had enjoyed so long was going to be taken away from them and placed in the hands of quarter sessions. What they wanted was that all communities should work together. If they made one community jealous of another they would cause great trouble and difficulty in the working of this Bill, and he did not see how it could be avoided. If they took away certain powers from small boroughs and handed them over to quarter sessions how could they expect the local magistrates to work

1513
cordially with quarter sessions. Nothing was more likely to irritate or hurt their feelings than to have their powers taken away and handed over to quarter sessions. There might be a possibility of the fund being rather small, but they might give them the option of being included in the quarter sessions area if they wished it. That would prevent all friction and it would make this part of the Bill work smoothly. He hoped the Government would refrain from imposing these irritating restrictions upon small communities.
MR. PYMthought they ought to feel grateful to the Government for the concessions they had made on this point. When he came to consult his borough sessions and borough magistrates he could not say whether they would be satisfied or not. At any rate they had advanced in the direction of giving these smaller areas a certain independence which under the Bill as it stood before they did not have. He thought the suggestion to insert 10,000 might be objected to on the ground that boroughs of 10,000 would not have a sufficient I number of magistrates to be able to divide them to sit in two Courts. He doubted whether the small boroughs would be sufficiently large to raise an adequate compensation fund for the purpose of reducing the number of licences. On the other hand, he thought 25,000 was sufficiently large for the purposes he had mentioned, and he hoped the Government would favourably consider this suggestion, because this was a matter upon which boroughs of 25,000 inhabitants felt very strongly. Hon. Members knew perfectly well the strong feeling of jealousy which existed in some of these old boroughs, and nothing had brought the feeling out more strongly than the creation of the county councils. The interference of the county council with his borough would be like holding out a red rag to a bull. Why should they do this? If these old boroughs had a sufficiently large area and sufficient magistrates to carry out the intention of the Bill, why should they not be given this independent power? He hoped the Government would give a favourable consideration to this point. On this matter he desired to support the true interests of the borough he represented.
MR. WALLACEsaid he would be disposed to support the Amendment of his hon. friend if he thought there was any chance of its being adopted, but in the circumstances he hoped it would not be pressed, because he thought if it was pressed it would not be carried, while it would endanger the acceptance of an Amendment with regard to the larger boroughs which was desired by both sides of the House. He agreed with his hon. friend as to the strong feeling in the small boroughs with regard to the preservation of their rights. In Scotland there was nothing more prized than the powers possessed by local magistrates to deal with licensing matters. The local magistrates discharged their duties in a way which gave almost universal satisfaction. He thought the same result would take place in England. None of the difficulties which might arise in the smaller boroughs could arise in the larger boroughs of over 25,000 inhabitants. He was quite sure that it would create great jealousy amongst the smaller boroughs if they discriminated between them, giving representation on quarter sessions to some and denying it to others. He hoped that, in carrying out the pledge given, the hon. and learned. Member would try to see that all these boroughs had the same representation on the licensing authority.
VISCOUNT MORPETHsaid hon. Members on the Opposition side of the House seemed to have forgotten the nature of the Bill with which they were dealing. It was a Bill for the encouragement of temperance. Hon. Members on the other side of the House laughed. They had been advocating temperance, and had continually said that the proper way of dealing with this subject was to have a national levy over the whole country for the purposes of compensation, and now they were busily engaged helping the smaller boroughs to limit the very small and inadequate fund to be provided for the purposes of this Bill. The Committee had been told by hon. Members opposite about the prestige of the borough magistrates. They had been told that certain things must not be done because of the interference with the

1515
dignity and prestige of the borough magistrates. He did not admit that there was such a feeling as hon. Members had alluded to; but assuming that there was this feeling, it seemed to him that the best way to get over it was to adopt the Amendment proposed by his right hon. friend the Home Secretary. He looked at this matter purely from the point of view of how they were going to help in the reduction of licences. He held that they would help in the reduction of licences by making the areas of adequate size. The congestion was not the Same all over the country. It was worse in some districts than in others, and if they were to reduce the number of licences in the most congested districts it was desirable that those areas should be joined to other districts, which would help them out in the matter of reductions. He hoped the Government would stand firm in this matter and not allow the areas they had selected to be whittled away and the effectiveness of the Bill to be in that way lessened.
SIR JOSEPH LEESEsaid he could conceive why hon. Members in discussing this question put forward the views which suited their own constituents. He did not quarrel with them for that, but when they brought forward an Amendment to the Amendment on the Paper, which would destroy the possibility of doing a fair measure of justice to the larger boroughs, he thought that policy ought to be deprecated. He regarded the Amendment to the Amendment as absolutely antagonistic to the proposal of his hon. friend the Member for Lancaster. In effect the 10,000 population boroughs said to the larger boroughs: "You shall not have autonomy unless we get it too." The result of giving effect to that view would be that the large boroughs, in which he was specially interested, and those large places which were within 3,000 or 4,000 of being county boroughs, would be kept out of their legitimate rights. He thought the Committee did not know the amount of jealousy that existed between the large non-county boroughs and the county councils. The non-county boroughs found themselves being deprived of their local autonomy step by step. They con-
1516
ceived that they could manage their own affairs as well as the county councils could manage for them. They were indignant at being superseded as educational authorities in their own boroughs, and now they were not to be permitted to control the drink trade in their local districts. He would heartily support the proposal of the hon. Member for Lancaster.
MR. SHACKLETONsaid he happened to be in intimate touch with three boroughs which would be closely affected by the Amendment, if parried. He was a member of the Bench of the borough of Accrington, and he knew the feeling there against the proposals in this Bill. The other boroughs of which he spoke were Darwen and Clitheroe. The whole of these boroughs had sent to him officially, through the town councils and the borough Benches, petitions and resolutions protesting against this proposal. Surely that was the only way, apart from a general election, they hay of obtaining the opinion of the people directly concerned. Here they had opinion directly stated against the action of the Government in this matter. He agreed with the hon Member for Sowerby that to deprive local authorities of the powers which they previously had would do serious injury to the good government of our municipalities. The noble Lord the Member for Birmingham came and told them that this was an unwise proposal. He had better go to the Birmingham Borough Bench and ask them to give up their rights. It was most unfair for hon. Members representing places which had this power to try to prevent others from getting it. He hoped the Government would gracefully consent to the Amendment.
MR. COGHILLsupported the Amendment. He was perfectly certain that (he Solicitor-General fully recognised the difficulties underlying this question. He thought the non-county boroughs had a grievance in this respect. He represented three large towns in the Potteries, and the question was peculiarly complicated in relation to them. One town happened to be a county borough, having a population of over 50,000. Naturally the

1517
others were jealous of that town. He sympathised with Gentlemen representing the smaller boroughs, but to suggest that boroughs of 10,000 population should be included was going too far in the other direction, unless large boroughs of over 25,000 population were placed in the same position as county boroughs. If these were county boroughs the question would be perfectly simple, but as they were not, it was extremely hard that boroughs with a population of 30,000 or 40,000 should be placed in a distinctly inferior position to that of towns immediately adjoining whose population was just over 50,000. He hoped the Solicitor-General would see his way to going a little further than he had done towards meeting the very strong views which were held on both sides of the House.
MR. GEORGE WHITELEY (Yorkshire, W.R.,said he had always objected to this grading of boroughs according to population, for, after all, that was a fluctuating standard. They all remembered that when the Local Government Act was passed two classes of boroughs were established—county boroughs with a population of 50,000, and non-county boroughs with a population of less than 50,000. Great soreness was created in the smaller boroughs on account of this distinction, because they were deprived of some of their privileges and placed under the rule of the county councils. The Government were proposing to do exactly the same injustice to the smaller boroughs under this Bill as under the Local Government Act. Now it was proposed to have boroughs under 25,000 population, boroughs between 25,000 and 50,000 population, and county boroughs a class by themselves. It would be better to deal with all the boroughs in the same fashion and give them similar privileges. By the Bill they were going to make confusion worse confounded in local government if this Amendment was not accepted by the Solicitor-General.
MR. HENDERSONsaid he wanted to join the hon. Member who had just spoken in support of the Amendment. He could not speak as the representative of a non-county borough; but he had the
1518
honour in the present year to be the chief magistrate of a non-county borough with a population of some 45,000. He presided at the annual licensing meeting, when it was unanimously decided to take no action during the present year, having regard to prospective legislation. The other day he called a meeting of the magistrates in order that they might consider the Bill that was proposing this prospective legislation, and, with one exception, they voted in support of a resolution protesting against the destruction of their powers by this Bill, and, therefore, in their name he made an appeal to the Solicitor-General that he would consider the claim of a borough of the size and importance of Darlington, with which he was connected. There was another point which ought to be very carefully kept in mind during the present discussion. The basis of this Bill had been very clearly stated to be the action of the magistrates throughout the country in taking away licences on the ground of non-requirement. Hon. Members would remember that he asked the Home Secretary to give him a Return on this particular matter, and that Return clearly demonstrated that the non-county borough Benches had committed no evil, if any evil had been committed by any Benches. If they had done the least mischief the Government ought to have some regard for the very mild way in which they had exercised their powers in the past, and should not seek by this Bill to take away those powers that they had so mildly put into operation. He appealed to the Solicitor-General whether he could not see his way to accept the Amendment of the hon. Member for Lancaster and allow non-county boroughs of a population of over 25,000 to retain the powers which they had hitherto enjoyed.
SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid he was most anxious, if he could, to go further than he had already done. But the Government had gone into this question most minutely, and they had deliberately come to the conclusion that this Amendment would spoil the working of the compensation fund. It was, therefore, impossible that he could hold out any hope of going further than he had already done. He had himself gone personally into the figures of all the non-county

1519
boroughs—certainly most of those which had more than 25,000 of population, and had a separate commission of the peace—and the conclusion to which he had come was that in some cases there would not be sufficient contributions to the compensation fund to enable the magistrates practically and effectively to deal with the suppression of unnecessary licensed houses. On the other hand, in several boroughs there would be this state of facts—particularly in comparatively new districts where there was a large population—that there would be a very good class of public-house, and practically there would be very little necessity for taking away superabundant houses at all; but, at the same time, there would be a very considerable annual value of contributions to the compensation fund lost to the county, which wanted it badly in connection with some of the small non-county boroughs whose contributions would be very small. It was solely on these grounds that the Government had drawn the line they had done. But they thought they ought to do something for the larger non-county boroughs, and he had undertaken to consider, as far as possible, to have a representation of the non-county boroughs upon quarter sessions; and that he would attempt to carry out to the best of his ability. It had been said over and over again that they were taking away some right from the non-county boroughs. He knew that they were taking it away to this extent, that they would have only the same power to suggest the houses that ought to be suppressed as they now had.
MR. WHITTAKER (Yorkshire, W.R.,: They do not suggest now. They have the power.
SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid that the hon. Member knew perfectly well the distinction. At the present moment they had not the absolute right of taking away a licence, because there was an appeal to quarter sessions which was exercised in every case.
MR. WHITTAKER: No; not in half.
SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid that if the hon. Member would look into the figures he would see that in almost every
1520
case, if a licence was taken away for the reason of redundancy, and redundancy alone, there was an appeal to the quarter sessions. Under the Bill the local justices would simply report the house to quarter sessions. But if in any wise the compensation fund was made less adequate than under the Bill, then they would be really interfering more with the power to reduce licensed houses. Therefore, the Government could not accept the Amendment.
MR. HELMEasked if he might venture just finally to suggest to the Government that in the list of the boroughs presented to them a comparison was made of the amount the compensation paid would amount to calculated for areas in the smaller counties and the smaller county boroughs and those asked for were sufficiently large. Hence there was no question of principle, as opposed to the Bill, in pressing this Amendment on the Committee. He asked the Government to look at the question as related to such boroughs in Lancashire as were on the edge of becoming county boroughs—such as Blackpool and Southport. These boroughs had very large areas, and at the present moment they were applying to be constitituted county boroughs. In fact, they would be county boroughs before this Bill came into operation. Contrast Canterbury, with a population of 15,000 which was a county borough, with Lancaster, the county town, with a population of between 40,000 and 50,000 and with old historic associations for hundreds of years. Why should Lancaster be placed in a position of inferiority to Canterbury? Where was the justice in that, and where was the principle? This was not a Party question. It was undeniable that in the request they had made they were guided by the fact that they knew that the Government had the power to carry the Bill through the House, and they only asked the Government to consider the equities of the case. The fact was they restricted their request to those boroughs which were large enough to provide the compensation. In the interest of the future working of this measure, he would point out that it would be far better if the Home Secretary and Solicitor-General

1521
would, before the Report stage, look into this question and bring up a clause which would work better than the one proposed. It might be possible to provide that in some very small boroughs there should be an appeal to quarter sessions. He trusted that in these cir-
cumstances the hon. Member for Elland would withdraw his Amendment.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 281; Noes, 130. (Division List No. 227.)

AYES.

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

Higham, John Sharpe

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Dalkeith, Earl of

Hoare, Sir Samuel

Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Hobhouse, Rt. Hn H. (Somers't, E

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

Hogg, Lindsay

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Dickinson, Robert Edmond

Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

Arrol, Sir William

Dickson, Charles Scott

Horner, Frederick William

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Soseph C.

Hoult, Joseph

Atherley-Jones, L.

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Houston, Robert Paterson

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

Austin, Sir John

Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Bailey, James (Walworth)

Doxford, Sir William Theodore

Hunt, Rowland

Bain, Colonel James Robert

Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

Baird, John George Alexander

Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

Balcarres, Lord

Emmott, Alfred

Kerr, John

Baldwin, Alfred

Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W).

Kimber, Henry

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward

King, Sir Henry Seymour

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

Kitson, Sir James

Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds

Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

Knowles, Sir Lees

Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks., N. R.

Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham)

Bartley, Sir George C. T.

Fisher, William Hayes

Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

Fison, Frederick William

Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington)

Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose

Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon

Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Flannery, Sir Fortescue

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Bigwood, James

Flower, Sir Ernest

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

Bill, Charles

Forster, Henry William

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

Bingham, Lord

Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S. W.)

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Blake, Edward

Galloway, William Johnson

Lowe, Francis William

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Gardner, Ernest

Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

Bond, Edward

Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Brigg, John

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-

Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth

Brotherton, Edward Allen

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Butcher, John George

Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

Macdona, John Cumming

Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ.

Graham, Henry Robert

M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Greene, Sir E. W( B'ryS Edm'nds

M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh, W.

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury)

M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

Cawley, Frederick

Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.)

M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Grenfell, William Henry

Majendie, James A. H.

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Gretton, John

Manners, Lord Cecil

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

Groves, James Grimble

Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc.

Gunter, Sir Robert

Markham, Arthur Basil

Chapman, Edward

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

Charrington, Spencer

Hall, Edward Marshall

Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H. E. (Wigt'n

Clancy, John Joseph

Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.)

Give, Captain Percy A.

Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford)

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Coates, Edward Feetham

Hare, Thomas Leigh

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G.

Coddington, Sir William

Haslett, Sir James Horner

Milvain, Thomas

Coghill, Douglas Harry

Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

Molesworth, Sir Lewis

Colomb, Rt. Hon. Sir John C. R.

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

Morpeth, Viscount

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Heath, James (Staffords., N. W.

Morrell, George Herbert

Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

Heaton, John Henniker

Morrison, James Archibald

Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

Helder, Augustus

Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

Muntz, Sir Philip A.

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Tuff, Charles

Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute)

Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Tuke, Sir John Batty

Myers, William Henry

Samuel, Sir Harry S. (Limehouse

Valentia, Viscount

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H. (Sheffield

Newdegate, Francis A. N.

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Walker, Col. William Hall

Nicholson, William Graham

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Walton, Jn. Lawson(Leeds, S.)

Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

Shackleton, David James

Wanklyn, James Leslie

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Sharpe, William Edward T.

Warde, Colonel C. E.

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

Shaw-Stewart, Sir H.(Renfrew)

Webb, Colonel William George

Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Welby,. Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton

Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Welby, Sir Charles G.E.(Notts.

Percy, Earl

Smith, Abel H(Hertford, East)

Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

Pilkington, Colonel Richard

Smith, Tames Parker(Lanarks.)

Whiteley, H.(Ashton und. Lyne

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Whitmore, Charles Algernon

Plummer, Sir Walter R.

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Pretyman, Ernest George

Spear, John Ward

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.

Randles, John S.

Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

Wilson, John (Glasgow)

Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh., N.

Reid, James (Greenock)

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord(Lanes.)

Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H.(Yorks.)

Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries

Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf' d

Remnant, James Farquharson

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

Stock, James Henry

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

Renwick, George

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Wrightson, Sir Thomas

Rickett, J. Compton

Stroyan, John

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Ridley, Hon. M.W.(Stalybridge

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.

Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

Young, Samuel

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Thorburn, Sir Walter

Younger, William

Round, Rt. Hon. James

Thornton, Percy M.

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Tollemache, Henry James

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

Runciman, Walter

Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

Pym and Mr. George White.

Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

Tritton, Charles Ernest

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

Levy, Maurice

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

Lewis, John Herbert

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Evans, Sir Fran. H. (Maidstone)

Lloyd-George, David

Allen, Charles P.

Farquharson, Dr. Robert

Lough, Thomas

Ambrose, Robert

Fenwick, Charles

Lundon, W.

Asher, Alexander

Flynn, James Christopher

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Barlow, John Emmott

Fuller, J. M. F.

M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

Furness, Sir Christopher

M'Crae, George

Benn, John Williams

Garfit, William

Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

Black, Alexander William

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Boland, John

Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick)

Moss, Samuel

Broadhurst, Henry

Griffith, Ellis J.

Murphy, John

Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

Haldane, Rt. Bon. Richard B.

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Burt, Thomas

Harcourt, Lewis V.(Rossendale

Newnes, Sir George

Buxton, Sydney Charles

Harwood, George

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Caldwell, James

Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Cameron, Robert

Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.)

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Holland, Sir William Henry

O'Shee, James John

Channing, Francis Allston

Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Horniman, Frederick John

Partington, Oswald

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

Perks, Robert William

Cremer, William Randal

Jacoby, James Alfred

Pirie, Duncan V.

Crombie, John William

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Power, Patrick Joseph

Cullinan, J.

Joicey, Sir James

Price, Robert John

Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea)

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan)

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

Reddy, M.

Delany, William

Joyce, Michael

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Dobbie, Joseph

Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W.

Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

Doogan, P. C.

Langley, Batty

Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

Duncan, J. Hastings

Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

Rose, Charles Day

Edwards, Frank

Lay land-Barratt, Francis

Russell, T. W.

Elibank, Master of

Leigh, Sir Joseph

Schwann, Charles E.

Ellice, Capt E. C. (S Andrw's Bghs

Leng, Sir John

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

1524

1525

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Toulmin, George

Wilson, Chas. Henry (Hull, W.)

Slack, John Bamford

Wallace, Robert

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

Smith, Samuel (Flint)

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Soares, Ernest J.

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Yoxall, James Henry

Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Sullivan, Donal

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.)

Whitley, George (York, W. R.)

Trevelyan and Sir Edward

Thomas, D. Alfred (Merthyr)

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Strachey.

Tomkinson, James

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Question put "That those words be there inserted."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 171; Noes, 246. (Division List No. 228.)

AYES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

Moss, Samuel

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Flynn, James Christopher

Murphy, John

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

Newnes, Sir George

Allen, Charles P.

Fuller, J. M. F.

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Ambrose, Robert

Furness, Sir Christopher

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Asher, Alexander

Garfit, William

O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary, Mid

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

O'Malley, William

Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

Goddard, Daniel Ford

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Atherley-Jones, L.

Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury)

Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick)

Partington, Oswald

Barlow, John Emmott

Griffith, Ellis J.

Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Perks, Robert William

Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

Hall, Edward Marshall

Pirie, Duncan V.

Benn, John Williams

Harcourt, Lewis V.(Rossendale

Power, Patrick Joseph

Black, Alexander William

Harwood, George

Price, Robert John

Boland, John

Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

Brigg, John

Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

Reddy, M.

Broadhurst, Henry

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries

Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

Higham, John Sharpe

Rickett, J. Compton

Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Burns, John

Holland, Sir William Henry

Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

Burt, Thomas

Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

Buxton, Sydney Charles

Horniman, Frederick John

Rose, Charles Day

Caldwell, James

Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

Runciman, Walter

Cameron, Robert

Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

Jacoby, James Alfred

Schwann, Charles E.

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Shackleton, David James

Cawley, Frederick

Joicey, Sir James

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Charming, Francis Allston

Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Jones, William(Carnarvonshire

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Coghill, Douglas Harry

Joyce, Michael

Slack, John Bamford

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Kearley, Hudson E.

Smith, Samuel (Flint)

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Kennedy, Vincent P.(Cavan, W.

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

Kitson, Sir James

Soares, Ernest J.

Cremer, William Randal

Langley, Batty

Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

Crombie, John William

Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.

Strachey, Sir Edward

Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

Sullivan, Donal

Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan)

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Delany, William

Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington)

Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.)

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Leigh, Sir Joseph

Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)

Dobbie, Joseph

Leng, Sir John

Tomkinson, James

Donelan, Captain A.

Levy, Maurice

Toulmin, George

Doogan, P. C.

Lewis, John Herbert

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

Lloyd-George, David

Wallace, Robert

Duncan, J. Hastings

Lough, Thomas

Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.)

Dunn, Sir William

Lundon, W.

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Edwards, Frank

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Elibank, Master of

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Ellice, Capt E. C. (S Andrw's Bghs

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

White, George (Norfolk)

Emmott, Alfred

M'Crae, George

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maids tone

M'Kenna, Reginald

Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

Farquharson, Dr. Robert

Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

Fenwick, Charles

Markham, Arthur Basil

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Wilson, Chas. Henry (Hull, W.)

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf'd

Helme and Mr. Pym.

NOES.

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

Macdona, John Cumming

Arrol, Sir William

Fison, Frederick William

M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose

M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh, W

Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon

M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

Austin, Sir John

Flannery, Sir Fortescue

Majendie, James A. H.

Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

Flower, Sir Ernest

Manners, Lord Cecil

Bailey, James (Walworth)

Forster, Henry William

Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

Bain, Colonel James Robert

Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.)

Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H. E. (Wigt'n

Baird, John George Alexander

Galloway, William Johnson

Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.)

Balcarres, Lord

Gardner, Ernest

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Baldwin, Alfred

Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J.(Manch'r

Gore, Hon. S.F. Ormsby

Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G.

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

Milvain, Thomas

Balfour, Rt. Hon Gerald W. (Leeds

Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

Molesworth, Sir Lewis

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

Graham, Henry Robert

Morgan David J. (Walthamstow)

Bartley, Sir George C. T.

Greene, Sir E. W. (B'rySEdm'nds

Morpeth, Viscount

Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

Morrell, George Herbert

Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

Grenfell, William Henry

Morrison, James Archibald

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Gretton, John

Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

Bigwood, James

Groves, James Grimble

Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

Bill, Charles

Gunter, Sir Robert

Muntz, Sir Philip A.

Bingham, Lord

Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

Murray, Rt. Hon A. Graham (Bute

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn

Hare, Thomas Leigh

Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

Myers, William Henry

Brotherton, Edward Allen

Haslett, Sir James Horner

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Butcher, John George

Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

Newdegate, Francis A. N.

Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Nicholson, William Graham

Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ.

Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Heath, James (Staffords., N. W.

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

Heaton, John Henniker

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Helder, Augustus

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.)

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

Hoare, Sir Samuel

Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc.

Hobhouse, Rt. Hn. H. (Somers't, E

Percy, Earl

Chapman, Edward

Hogg, Lindsay

Pilkington, Colonel Richard

Charrington, Spencer

Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

Piatt-Higgins, Frederick

Clancy, John Joseph

Horner, Frederick William

Plummer, Sir Walter R.

Clive, Captain Percy A.

Hoult, Joseph

Pretyman, Ernest George

Coates, Edward Feetham

Houston, Robert Paterson

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

Randles, John S.

Coddington, Sir William

Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

Colomb, Rt. Hn. Sir John C. R.

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Reid, James (Greenock)

Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

Hunt, Rowland

Remnant, James Farquharson

Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

Cripps, Charles Alfred

Kerr, John

Renwick, George

Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

Kimber, Henry

Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge

Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

King, Sir Henry Seymour

Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

Dalkeith, Earl of

Knowles, Sir Lees

Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Davenport, William Bromley

Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

Round, Rt. Hon. James

Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

Lawson, John Grant Yorks., N. R

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Dickinson, Robert Edmond

Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham)

Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

Dickson, Charles Scott

Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph C.

Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Samuel, Sir Harry S. (Limehouse

Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.)

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Doxford, Sir William Theodore

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

Lowe, Francis William

Sharpe, William Edward T.

Faber, Edmund B. (Hants., W.

Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

Shaw-Stewart, Sir H. (Renfrew)

Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r)

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

Simeon, Sir Barrington

1528

1529

Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

Thornton, Percy M.

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.

Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

Tollemache, Henry Tames

Wilson, John (Glasgow)

Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.)

Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

Wilson, J. W.(Worcestersh., N.)

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Tritton, Charles Ernest

Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H. (Yorks.)

Spear, John Ward

Tuff, Charles

Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

Valentia, Viscount

Wrightson, Sir Thomas

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.)

Vincent, Col. Sir C.E.H(Sheffield

Wyndham, Rt Hon. George

Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

Walker, Col. William Hall

Yerburgh, R. bert Armstrong

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

Wanklyn, James Leslie

Young, Samuel

Stock, James Henry

Warde, Colonel C. E.

Younger, William

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Webb, Colonel William George

Stroyan, John

Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E( Taunton)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Welby, Sir Charles G. E.(Notts.

Alexander Acland-Hood and

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G (Oxf'd Univ.

Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

Whitmore, Charles Algernon

Thorburn, Sir Walter

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

MR. SLACKmoved to insert a provision enabling any person entitled to be heard by the committee of quarter sessions to appear and be heard by counsel or solicitor. He submitted that such a provision was necessary in view of the complicated terms of the present measure and the difficulties of interpreting the licensing law of this country. Solicitors as well as counsel were included in the Amendment not only in order to minimise the expense, but also because solicitors had no right of audience at quarter sessions, and might therefore be held to have no right of audience before a committee of quarter sessions. Solicitors were now heard at brewster sessions and many of the powers of brewster sessions now in reality or in effect passed to the committees referred to in this section. It was essential that those members of the local public who desired to be heard in opposition to, or in support of, a licence-application as well as an aggrieved licence-holder should unmistakably have the right to legal assistance and the services of a trained advocate before these committees.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 3, line 32, after the word 'Act,' to insert the words 'and any person entitled to be heard by such committee may appear and be heard by counsel or solicitor on his behalf.'"—(Mr. Slack).
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
SIR ALBERT ROLLITsaid he hoped the Government would see their way to accept this proposal. The Amendment was not designed to give solicitors a
1530
right of audience at quarter sessions, that matter rested entirely with quarter sessions themselves, and in certain cases the right was given. The right of audience was almost universally given to solicitors before the present licensing committees, but as that committee was to be abolished and its place taken by a delegated committee of quarter sessions a question might arise as to whether solicitors would have right of audience before it. It was desirable that the question should be determined not only in the professional interest but also in the interest of the public, because many cases which would come before the new committee would not bear the expense of appearance by counsel, and in such cases unless the parties were able to do justice to themselves they would really have no representation at all.
MR. H. D. GREENEhoped the Amendment would not be accepted. For centuries past it had been the duty of quarter sessions to regulate the right of audience, and they had established the practice all over the country that where a sufficient representation of barristers could not be found they would hear solicitors. But it ought to be left to the quarter sessions to decide to whom they would give audience. There was no jealousy on the part of the Bar in the matter. The Bar was not so numerous a body as the solicitors; it was more under effective control; barristers had adopted certain sessions throughout the country, and it was easier for quarter sessions to recognise those who were continually appearing before them than solicitors who might come from all parts of the country, and

1531
who as strangers might not altogether command the confidence of the Court. The matter was an important one as it involved the giving to solicitors of a statutory right to appear. No such right was given in regard to the standing committees created in 1872, and he failed to see why such a right should be conferred by statute in connection with the new committee to be set up by this Bill. No public interest would be served by the Amendment, and he hoped it would be rejected.
MR. J. A. PEASEsaid that inasmuch as solicitors were allowed to appear at the ordinary brewster sessions he could not understand why persons interested should not be permitted to be represented by solicitors before the committee of quarter sessions.
MR. GIBSON BOWLESwas altogether opposed to the giving of any new statutory rights to solicitors. The last statutory right given to that profession involved an expenditure of £2,000 per annum from the public funds to enable solicitors to strike one another off the Rolls, but the duty had not been adequately performed, there being many solicitors who ought to have been so dealt with, but had not been. If a statutory right was to be given it should be reserved to barristers, though, personally, he would rather have neither barristers nor solicitors. In cases of the sort to be dealt with under this clause, an ordinary citizen could adequately represent his case before a body of intelligent country justices. He did not agree that the ordinary layman would be unable to do justice to his case. He would readily back an ordinary intelligent publican against an ordinary intelligent solicitor in such a matter. But the Court of quarter sessions would have power to hear either counsel or Solicitors, and the choice ought to be left to the Court.
SIR HENRY FOWLERreminded the Committee that barristers could not be briefed except through solicitors. The heavy cost of litigation in this country was caused by the necessity imposed upon suitors of
1532
having two legal advisers belonging to the different branches of the profession.
MR. GIBSON BOWLESsaid the remedy was to abolish the solicitor.
SIR HENRY FOWLERsaid if the hon. Member would propose it perhaps there would be no objection raised by the other branch of the profession.
SIR EDWARD CARSON: Would you give them compensation?
SIR HENRY FOWLERsaid that what were practically the duties of brewster sessions were to be transferred to a new body and all that was asked for by the mover of this Amendment, who represented the Law Society, was that solicitors should have the same right of audience before the standing committee as they had before the other body.
SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid this Amendment raised questions of importance not connected with this Bill at all, and the Licensing Bill was hardly the measure upon which they could settle them. This Bill did not alter the position of barristers or solicitors in their relation to quarter sessions, and proposed to leave it exactly as it was before. The hon. and learned Member for Islington said that solicitors had already the right to appear before brewster sessions and the licensing committee. That right was not going to be affected by this Bill. As regarded the licensing committee of quarter sessions, it had always rested with quarter sessions as to whether they would hear either barristers or solicitors or whether they would allow a solicitor to appear without a barrister. They were not going to interfere with that arrangement and were leaving that power with the quarter sessions, and it would remain exactly the same after this Bill had passed as it was before. To make a change, giving audience where the quarter sessions had before had the right to refuse audience, raised a question which he did not think ought to be settled in this way, because it raised much larger questions of principle.
MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid this question did not matter to the solicitor at

1533
all, and it was not a question of wrangling between him and the barrister as to who should get the fees. The solicitor made a much better thing out of it when he instructed counsel than when he appeared himself. All they did by compelling them to select a barrister was to double the cost to the public. The Solicitor-General was a living example of what solicitors suffered from and the Attorney-General was another. The result of this system was that the barrister got all the fees and the solicitors got nothing but the work. This was not fair trade and he wanted a little reform in this respect. This was the only country in the world where they had a system of this sort. They certainly ought to abolish either the solicitor or the barrister. There were one or two other professions he should like to see abolished, and they might include the parsons, but that was rather wide of the subject. He wished to allow the client to choose for himself. In most districts the solicitors had a much wider experience in advocacy than barristers on this question, and why should they be prevented from presenting the same case before quarter sessions? It would save expense, and in many cases it would be more efficiently done. This would not be in the interests of solicitors because they would get smaller fees, but it would be in the interests of the public.
MR. THEODORE TAYLORsaid he did not advocate this proposal so much in the interests of solicitors as of the public. It would be presumptuous of him as a mere layman to express any opinion as between the respective branches of the legal profession, but he wished to retain the right of a client to have a solicitor to do the work he had done so long before the local bench. The Solicitor-General had stated that this Amendment was opening up by a side issue a great question, and he said he objected to take up such a large subject upon so small a point. The fact of the matter was they only wanted that the same business should be
allowed to go into the hands of solicitors as had been given to them before. It was the Government who were making a little change in the procedure in this particular business, and they simply wished a client to continue to be able to have a solicitor instead of a barrister if he wished it. They did not wish generally to infringe the great professional principle which was at stake, and as a layman he was not going to express any opinion as to whether a solicitor or a barrister would be the better to employ. This Amendment was in the interests of the public, and he claimed for the public the same option, which they had had hitherto, to engage for this particular business those whom they had engaged before. Surely they could do this without raising the great issue which had been referred to by the Solicitor-General.
MR. SLACKsaid he had not raised this question in the interests of the legal profession but solely in the interests of the general public. It seemed to him that the licensing law was in about as complicated a tangle as any branch of the law, and he thought that anyone interested in objecting to or in the renewal or refusal of a licence ought to have the opportunity of employing someone conversant with the law to appear on his or their behalf before the committee of quarter sessions. The section as framed did not give a right of audience to any person whatever, and the committee of quarter sessions might possibly hold that they had no power to hear anyone unless some such words as he had proposed were placed after the word "Act." Furthermore, an aggrieved licence-holder or a body of persons anxious to object to the renewal of a licence ought to have the right to retain the services of an advocate without being, in all cases, put to the additional expense which the retaining of a barrister as well as a solicitor would involve.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 161; Noes, 258. (Division List No. 229.)

AYES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

Ambrose, Robert

Atherley-Jones, L.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Asher, Alexander

Barlow, John Emmott

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Allen, Charles P.

Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire

Beaumont, Wentwortk C. B.

Harcourt, Lewis V. (Rossendale

Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

Bell, Richard

Harwood, George

Perks, Robert William

Benn, John Williams

Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D.

Pirie, Duncan V.

Black, Alexander William

Helme, Norval Watson

Power, Patrick Joseph

Boland, John

Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

Price, Robert John

Brigg, John

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Rea, Russell

Broadhurst, Henry

Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.

Reddy, M.

Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

Holland, Sir William Henry

Rickett, J. Compton

Burns, John

Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

Burt, Thomas

Horniman, Frederick John

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Caldwell, James

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Rose, Charles Day

Cameron, Robert

Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

Runciman, Walter

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

Russell, T. W.

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Jacoby, James Alfred

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Cawley, Frederick

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

Channina, Francis Allston

Joicey, Sir James

Shackleton, David James

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Jones, David Brynmor (Sw'nsea

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

Joyce, Michael

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Cremer, William Randal

Kearley, Hudson E.

Smith, Samuel (Flint)

Crombie, John William

Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W.

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

Kitson, Sir James

Soares, Ernest J.

Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

Langley, Batty

Spear, John Ward

Delany, William

Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.

Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

Sullivan, Donal

Dobbie, Joseph

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

Leese, Sir Joseph F.( Accrington

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

Duncan, J. Hastings

Leng, Sir John

Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

Dunn, Sir William

Levy, Maurice

Tomkinson, James

Edwards, Frank

Lewis, Herbert

Toulmin, George

Elibank, Master of

Lloyd-George, David

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Ellice, Capt EC(S. Andrw's Bghs

Lough, Thomas

Walton, John Lawson(Leeds, S.)

Emmott, Alfred

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Walton, Joseph (Bansley)

Evans, Sir Francis H.(Maidstone

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Eve, Harry Trelawney

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

Farquharson, Dr. Robert

M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

White, George (Norfolk)

Fenwick, Charles

M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

White, Luke (York, E.R.)

Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

M'Crae, George

Whiteley, George (York, W.R.)

Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

M'Kenna, Reginald

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Flynn, James Christopher

Markham, Arthur Basil

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

Moss, Samuel

Wilson, Chas. Henry (Hull, W.)

Fuller, J.M.F.

Moulton, John Fletcher

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

Furness, Sir Christopher

Murhpy, John

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

Newnes, Sir George

Wilson, J.W. (Worcestersh, N.)

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Woodhouse, Sir J T(Huddersf'd

Grant, Corrie

O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

Yoxall, James Henry

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E.(Berwick)

O'Down, John

Griffith, Ellis J.

O'Malley, William

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Parrott, William

Slack and Sir Albert Rollit.

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Partington, Oswald

NOES.

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

Bartley, Sir George C. T.

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Arrol, Sir William

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Bigwood, James

Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A.(Worc.

Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

Bill, Charles

Chapman, Edward

Austin, Sir John

Bingham, Lord

Charrington, Spencer

Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Bailey, James (Walworth)

Bond, Edward

Clare, Octavious Leigh

Bain, Colonel James Robert

Bousfield, William Robert

Clive, Captain Percy A.

Baird, John George Alexander

Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn

Coates, Edward Feetham

Balcarres, Lord

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Baldwin, Alfred

Brotherton, Edward Allen

Coddington, Sir William

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh.)

Coghill, Douglas Harry

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Bull, William James

Colomb, Rt. Hn. Sir John C. R.

Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

Butcher, John George

Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch

Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow

Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ.

Cripps, Charles Alfred

1536

1537

Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

Renwick, George

Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

Kerr, John

Richards, Henry Charles

Dalkeith, Earl of

Keswick, William

Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Kimber, Henry

Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

Davenport, William Bromley-

King, Sir Henry Seymour

Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

Knowles, Sir Lees

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Joseph C.

Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

Round, Rt. Hon. James

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

Lawson, John Grant(Yorks N.R

Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Lee, Arthur H.(Hants, Fareham

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Doxford, Sir William Theodore

Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

Leveson-Gower, Frederiek N. S

Samuel, Sir Harry S.(Limehouse

Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Faber, Edmund B. (Hants. W.)

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J.(Manc'r

Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

Sharpe, William Edward T.

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

Shaw-Stewart, Sir H.(Renfrew)

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Lowe, Francis William

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Fison, Frederick William

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

Lutas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

Flannery, Sir Fortescue

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Flower, Sir Ernest

Macdona, John Cumming

Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

Forster, Henry William

M'Iver, Sir Lewis( Edinburgh, W

Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset

Galloway, William Johnson

M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lanes.)

Gardner, Ernest

Majendie, James A. H.

Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

Garfit, William

Manners, Lord Cecil

Stock, James Henry

Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

Martin, Richard Biddulph

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn

Massey-Main waring, Hn. W. F.

Stroyan, John

Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-

Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H. E (Wigt'n

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

Maxwell, W. J.H.(Dumfriesshire

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G.(Oxf'd Univ.

Goschen, Hon. George Jochim

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Thorburn, Sir Walter

Graham, Henry Robert

Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G.

Thornton, Percy M.

Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

Milvain, Thomas

Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

Greene, Sir E. W.(B'rySEdm'ds

Molesworth, Sir Lewis

Tritton, Charles Ernest

Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury)

Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

Tuff, Charles

Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.

Morgan, David J.(Walthamst'w

Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

Grenfell, William Henry

Morpeth, Viscount

Tuke, Sir John Batty

Gretton, John

Morrell, George Herbert

Valentia, Viscount

Groves, James Grimble

Morrison, James Archibald

Vincent, Col. Sir C.E.H.(Sheffield

Gunter, Sir Robert

Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

Walker, Col. William Hall

Guthrie, Walter Murray

Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

Wallace, Robert

Hall, Edward Marshall

Muntz, Sir Philip A.

Wanklyn, James Leslie

Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

Warde, Colonel C. E.

Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

Webb, Colonel William George

Hare, Thomas Leigh

Myers, William Henry

Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E.( Taunton

Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

Newdegate, Francis A. N.

Welby, Sir Charles G. E.(Notts.)

Haslett, Sir James Horner

Nicholson, William Graham

Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

Whiteley, H.(Ashton und.Lyne

Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Whitmore, Charles Algernon

Heath, James (Staffords, N.

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Holder, Augustus

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.)

Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington

Wilson, John (Glasgow)

Hoare, Sir Samuel

Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H.(Yorks.)

Hobhouse, Rt Hn H. (Somers't, E

Percy, Earl

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Hogg, Lindsay

Pilkington, Colonel Richard

Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Horner, Frederick William

Plummer, Sir Walter R.

Wrightson, Sir Thomas

Hoult, Joseph

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Houston, Robert Paterson

Pretyman, Ernest George

Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.

Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Young, Samuel

Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

Pym, C. Guy

Younger, William

Hunt, Rowland

Randles, John S.

Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

Reid, James (Greenock)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir

Jessel, Captain Merbert Merton

Remnant, James Farquharson

Alexander Acland-Hood and

Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes

Question, "That Clause 5, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

MR. DISRAELImoved an Amendment to omit the words which would have the effect of abolishing
1538
the old licensing committee. He said he had no hostile intention in moving this Amendment. His object was to obtain

1539
from those responsible for the measure the reasons why the old county licensing committee had been abolished. That committee was an integral part of a public body, and it had rights and duties which worked into this Bill in a most satisfactory manner. He could not understand why the committee was to be done away with at the moment when another committee was to be appointed. He was conservative enough not to see an old body like the county licensing committee abolished without dropping a tear. He thought that it might have been utilised in working this Act instead of constituting an entirely new body.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 3, line 32, to leave out from the word 'and' to the end of Sab-section (2)."—(Mr. Disraeli.)
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid that the new committee would be the licensing committee of the quarter sessions, appointed by the same persons as the old committee was, but with certain restrictions as to the numbers.
MR. DISRAELIwithdrew his Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 3, line 33, at end, to add the words '(3) The justices of a licensing district being a county borough shall exercise their powers under the Licensing Acts, 1828 to 1902, as to the renewal of licences through the borough licensing committee appointed under Section 38 of The Licensing Act, 1872, but such number as the whole body of justices acting in and for the borough determine shall be substituted for seven as the maximum number of that committee.'"—(Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
SIR JAMES WOODHOUSEsaid he wished to move an Amendment to the Home Secretary's Amendment providing that such "greater" number of the licensing borough committee should be substituted for seven as the maximum number of the committee. The Amend-
1540
ment of the Government, whilst enabling the justices to increase the number of the committee, would also enable them to diminish it, and to appoint a committee of five instead of seven. He was anxious to make it clear that the intention of the Government was to make the number in excess of seven.
Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
"In line 4, after the word 'such' to insert the word 'greater.'"—(Sir James Woodhouse.)
Question proposed, "That the word 'greater' be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."
MR. AKERS-DOUGLASsaid that the justices would themselves decide what the number of the committee should be; but perhaps the hon. Member's idea was to make a minimum of seven, with power to increase the maximum. He would consider that point before Report.
SIR JAMES WOODHOUSEsaid that on the understanding that the minimum would be seven, with power to increase the maximum, he would withdraw his Amendment.
Amendment to the proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
SIR JAMES WOODHOUSEsaid that his next Amendment provided that the whole body of justices should be "qualified."
Amendment proposed—
"In line 4, after the second word 'of' to insert the word 'qualified.'"—(Sir James Woodhouse.)
Question proposed, "That the word 'qualified' be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."
SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid it had already been decided that men who were not qualified could not vote for the appointment of a committee. The Amendment of the Home Secretary had to be read in connection with previous Licensing Acts, and by inserting the word here it would throw doubts on the provisions of the other Acts where the same provision did not exist.
SIR ROBERT REIDsaid he could not help thinking that this was a very important committee, and that it would be more prudent to make provision in the Act, so as to prevent any doubt or misgiving, that those who were on the committee were subject to some disqualification.
SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid he really did not think any difficulty would arise in ascertaining what was disqualification.
MR. WHITTAKERsaid he was glad to hear that disqualification did apply, and he hoped that the right hon. and learned Gentleman would be prepared to put words in to make it clear that the disqualification applied to the whole Bill.
MR. WHITLEYsaid he would make a special appeal to the Solicitor-General that the disqualification should be re-enacted in this Bill. He had had considerable experience of licensing committees, and he knew that it was exceedingly inconvenient to refer to several statutes in order to arrive at a point. It should be remembered that justices who were not qualified did take part in proceedings "at their own risk," and it was invidious for a private individual to challenge the vote of such justices. The real position could be understood better if some provision as to disqualification were put into this Bill, so as to prevent a continued reference to previous Acts.
SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid he must point out that this Act must be construed as one of the Licensing Acts from 1828 to 1902. It might be said why re-enact one section and not another. However, he would be willing to insert words to make the point clear.
SIR JAMES WOODHOUSEsaid that as the reply of the Solicitor-General was sympathetic, he would ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment to the proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
MR. HERBERT ROBERTSsaid that as regarded the first part of his Amendment there was now no necessity to move it because of the assurance of the Solicitor-General. A new situation would be created by the Act, and justices would have a different type of cases to decide. Financial considerations would enter into questions, as they had not entered before, in connection with the payment of compensation, and it was essential that the actions of justices should be above suspicion. On that broad ground he would move his Amendment.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 3, line 33, at end, to add the words, 'No justice disqualified under the Licensing Acts, and no owner, lessee, or occupier of any licensed premises within any county, and no agent of such person acting, or who during the two years preceding shall have acted for him in any wise in connection with such licensed premises shall be qualified to act as a justice within such county for any of the purposes of this Act.'"—(Mr. Herbert Roberts.)
Question proposed. "That those words be there inserted."
SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid that the Government could not possibly accept the Amendment. It would include in disqualification holders of shares in brewery companies, which was going a long way to find a personal interest. It would also debar any person who in anywise had acted as agent for and owner within two years, and that was going an enormous length. Surely the present law was stringent enough. The hon. Member suggested that a licence-holder in "any county" should be disqualified.
MR. HERBERT ROBERTSsaid he meant "the" county.
SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid that even with that limitation he thought the present law was stringent enough.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
MR. CRIPPSsaid at present, when there was an appeal to quarter sessions, the licensing magistrates, who dealt with the matter in the first instance, did not take part in a decision when the matter was under appeal. That was in accordance with a

1543
general principle of law, and should be followed in the altered procedure under the Bill to ensure an impartial tribunal. He used the words "decision of the committee," because in the view of those cognisant with quarter sessions procedure the presence of the justices might be useful to assist the tribunal.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 3, line 33, at end, to add the words—(3) No justice who has taken part in any decision of quarter sessions shall, if on the committee, take part in any decision of the committee when the grant or renewal of such licence is under consideration.'"—(Mr. Cripps.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid from a practical point of view it would be impossible to accept this Amendment. Reports would be received from all the licensing districts in the county, and, as, each part of the county would have to be considered in relation to the whole, the Amendment would mean that every man would have to be taken off when the report had to be decided upon.
MR. CRIPPS: said after what his right hon. and learned friend had said he would not press the Amendment. He would merely like to say that what the Solicitor-General suggested would not arise. The law as it now existed did not allow a magistrate to sit in appeal on a case, which he had already decided, when it came to quarter sessions. He hoped that practice would be followed in the future as it had been in the past in order to ensure the maximum of impartiality.
MR. ELLIS GRIFFITHsaid he did not know whether the Solicitor-General would see his way to accept the Amendment he now proposed to move on behalf of his hon. friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs to put in the words "or a non-county borough having a separate commission of the peace." But a moment's considation would show that a non-county borough having a separate commission of the peace ought to be represented at quarter sessions in some way or other. It was quite clear that this Amendment was
1544
directed to a defect in the Bill and offered a remedy for it if such a remedy was possible.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 3, line 29, after the words last inserted, to insert the words 'or a non-county borough having a separate commission of the peace."—(Mr. Ellis Griffith.)
SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid that when the question was first raised he had promised to put down an Amendment for the Report stage of the Bill. That promise he adhered to, but he could not say what the nature of his Amendment would be until he looked into the matter.
SIR EDWARD GREYadmitted that the Solicitor-General had met them very fairly. He had promised to consider the matter between this and the Report stage, but he stated that he reserved his opinion now because of the difficulties of detail. The right hon. and learned Gentleman must not be surprised, however, if the Committee were a little disappointed in this matter, because it was quite possible that on the Report stage they might not have an opportunity of considering how far the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment fell short of their hopes. In view of the conditions under which the Report stage would be conducted it was necessary that hon. Members should express their views on the present occasion, in order that the Solicitor-General, who was anxious to meet them as far as possible, might be perfectly informed as to what the desires of the Committee were.
MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he was particularly anxious that all these boroughs should be represented. There were so few of them that it would not be a serious matter to give each a representative. The Solicitor-General had agreed to insert words giving a statutory right of representation; would he not go a step further and say that such a right would be given to each of these boroughs?
SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid he could not go further than he had already intimated.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 6:—
MR. LLOYD-GEORGE,in moving to make the power of the Secretary of State to make rules "subject to the consent of Parliament," said that on the present occasion it was impossible to do more than discuss the general character of the regulations. The practice of devolving upon Government Departments important branches of legislation had made considerable progress under the present Government, and it was time the matter was seriously considered. The practice was, no doubt, largely due to Parliamentary exigencies. Governments had come to the conclusion that it was impossible to carry measures if Parliament was to be allowed to discuss, even within moderate limits, the proposals put forward; hence resort was had to all kinds of devices to withdraw from the cognisance of Parliament large portions of legislative proposals. The functions which under this clause were to be devolved upon the Home Secretary were such that Parliament fifteen years ago would not have dreamt of delegating to a Government Department. They practically comprised a Bill in themselves, and he desired to enter a general protest against this extension of the doctrine of legislation by Departments. Possibly it would be better that a Committee of the House should be appointed to draw up the regulations in conjunction with the Department; at any rate the House ought to retain some control over purely legislative matters of this character. He understood that the rules were not even to be laid upon the Table of the House. That was an entirely new departure. The requirement did not afford a very great safeguard, because an opportunity was very seldom given for the discussion of rules so laid, but the mere knowledge that Parliament had the power and might if necessary insist upon exercising it, was, at any rate, some safeguard against this kind of legislation. Parliament had tried devolution upon Grand and Select Committees, it was now trying devolution upon Government Departments, which was the worst of all possible
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kinds of devolution. The time had come when the House of Commons ought seriously to consider whether a stop should not be put to this encroachment upon its rights. The guillotine was bad enough, but this proposal was worse, and he submitted that some provision ought to be inserted reserving to the House of Commons the right to express its judgment upon the rules made under the clause. He begged to move.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 3, line 34, after the word 'may,' to insert the words 'subject to the consent of Parliament.'"—(Mr. Lloyd George.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
MR. ASQUITHsaid that this clause was a good specimen of a species of draftsmanship which was becoming increasingly common, the object of which was to exclude from the consideration of the House matters which in old days were always recorded in the body of the Act itself or in the schedules. In the Municipal Corporations Act, for example, they would find the very same class of matters dealt with in the schedules, the details of which were subject to the criticism and received the approval of the House; and it was in order that the time of Parliament, or, what was more important, he supposed, that the time of the Government might be saved that this particular method of draftsmanship was employed. But it had never been carried quite to the same extent to which it had been carried in this clause. He was not going to discuss in detail the different sub-heads, but he wished to allude to the first sub-head, which provided that—
"A Secretary of State may make rules for carrying into effect this Act, and may by those rules, amongst other things—(a) provide for the provisional renewal of licences which are included in reports of the justices of a licensing district under this Act, and for consultation with those justices as to their reports, and the time and manner of the consideration of those reports, and of the payment of compensation."
That was a pretty large jurisdiction for a Minister of the Crown. The other sub-heads were—
"(b) provide for the enforcement of any security given for money borrowed, and for the time within which money borrowed is to be replaced; and (c) regulate the management and application of the compensation fund and the

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audit of the accounts of quarter sessions; and (d) provide for the mode of appointment, number, quorum, and procedure of committees, and for the employment of officers for the purposes of this Act; and (e) regulate the procedure for obtaining the consent of quarter sessions to the grant of a new on-licence, and for the hearing under this Act of persons interested in licensed premises; and (f) provide for the authentication of any documents on behalf of quarter sessions or their committees."
The whole of this new machinery would be subjected to the control of the Home Secretary, and Parliament was to have no control at all in the matter. He quite agreed that in Home Office administration it was necessary to give the Minister the power of framing special rules and regulations, but they had always required such special rules and regulations to be laid on the Table in order that they might receive the approval or disapproval of the House. There was no such provision in this clause and he would like to ask the Solicitor-General on what occasion and under what conditions the House of Commons would have the opportunity of bringing the Minister to book. If the House was not to have an opportunity by the laying of the rules and regulations on the Table he could not see any other way by which any rules and regulations which might be made could be brought under the control of the House. It was quite conceivable that some day or other they might have a Liberal Secretary of State in power, and he would have the framing of these regulations, and very drastic he might make them. Therefore, he was not making this appeal in any sense from the point of view of one Party or the other. He contended that in the interests of the authority and jurisdiction of the House of Commons they ought not to part lightly with so large a share in the framing of regulations which were essential to the proper carrying out of this Bill.
MR. GIBSON BOWLESsaid he took even a more serious view of the clause than did either the hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment or the right hon. Gentleman who had just spoken. They seemed to think that it would be sufficient if the regulations were laid on the Table.
MR. ASQUITH: We think that would be a safeguard.
MR. GIBSON BOWLESthought it would be no safeguard at all. Rules and regulations of the kind were laid on the Table, and unless an address was moved within forty days they had ipso facto the force of law. However much a private Member might desire to call them in question, he had no chance whatever of doing so except in the middle of the night, and practically no attention was called to them, for the simple reason that there was no opportunity during those forty days. Therefore what the right hon. Gentleman opposite thought might be a safeguard was no safeguard at all under the present rules of the House. Therefore he hoped that the right hon. Gentleman and his friends would dismiss from their minds the idea that this Amendment would meet the case.
MR. EDMUND ROBERTSONsaid the rules would have to receive the approval or disapproval of Parliament in the event of the Amendment being carried. The proceedings on the rules would be regarded as business exempted from the Standing Order by which business was interrupted at twelve o'clock.
MR. GIBSON BOWLESsaid he did not agree with the hon. Gentleman if he meant that the rules could be brought before the House for discussion after midnight. He did not believe the Speaker would hold that this was exempted business. He came now to the merits of the case. He agreed that it was a most serious thing to place this power in the hands of a Secretary of State. Consider what was to be done by the Bill. They had spent many days profitably, and some unprofitably, in limiting the powers of the licensing justices and quarter sessions. What they should and what they should not do had been argued, but Clause 6 upset the whole of the arrangements, and put the whole of the procedure of the justices, how they were to get money, and what they were to do with it, entirely under the Home Office. That was a supersession of the whole of the rest of the Bill. He did not know whether the right hon. Gentleman had read some of the clauses. He would only refer to sub-sections (b) and (c).

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The Home Office was to make regulations to—
"(b) provide for the enforcement of any security given for money borrowed, and for the time within which money borrowed is to be replaced; and
"(c) regulate the management and application of the compensation fund and the audit of the accounts of quarter sessions."
Why, the whole of the rest of this Bill dealt with the method in which the compensation fund was to be raised and how it was to be applied, and now it was proposed by Clause 6 to take away all the power they had previously given and to hand it over at one fell swoop to the Home Office. He agreed that that was taking away the liberties of the House, and the liberties of the people of England. It was taking away power from the cognisance of the House and putting it into Provisional Orders, or orders by the Home Office, or other Departments, with respect to matters affecting the well-being of the subject. It was for the House to settle the terms of an Act of Parliament, to determine what the conditions were to be, and how the powers should be exercised. He submitted that the House had no right to delegate that power. The House had no right to say, "We are tired of debating the Bill; we cannot go into all the details required in order to insure that it shall be properly carried out, and w e will hand the whole thing over to the Secretary of State for the Home Department." Secretaries of State were not always so perfect as the right hon. Gentleman who now represented the Home Office. They might have in that office the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Fife, and, although his own side would feel great confidence in him, he was not sure that Members on that side would feel equal confidence in him in the administration of the Licensing Acts. That was sufficient to show the I extreme danger of allowing anything to pass from the power of the House. What was here proposed amounted not to delegation, but to usurpation, of the duties of the House. If the House agreed to a clause like this it would amount to a dereliction of their duty. This supersession of the House by Ministers in the making of rules had gone far enough, and it seemed to him that unless the House now made a stand the
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practice would go very much further than was safe for the House or the country. Let the House remember that he was a friend of this Bill. He thought it was a good Bill, and he had supported the Government upon it all through. But with regard to this clause he did entreat them to pause and think what they were doing. He could see no reason why this clause should not be omitted altogether, and quarter sessions and the licensing justices left to make the regulations required. Surely they could be trusted for that. He had been struck during the discussion of the Bill by the extreme ability, good temper, and accessibility to argument of the Solicitor-General. The hon. and learned Gentleman had shown a most remarkable instance of the ease with which a Minister who was accessible to reason might conduct a Bill through the House. His argument regarding this clause was not founded on prejudice against the Bill, the brewer, or the publican. It was based on the interests of the House of Commons, in which he was sure both the Solicitor-General and the Prime Minister felt as much interest as he did himself. He did not know whether the whole scope and final effect of this clause had been duly considered yet. It would take a great load off his mind if it could be withdrawn.
THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,said he was afraid his hon. friend the Member for King's Lynn would think that his intervention in the debate showed that a less reasonable spirit was going to prevail than he found in the utterances of his hon. and learned friend the Solicitor-General. His hon. friend was alarmed at the terrible prospect of leaving matters of such immense importance to be dealt with, not by the House, but by an executive officer, the Home Secretary. But his own proposal was to leave them, not to the Home Secretary, who was responsible to the House, but to persons who did not owe any responsibility to the House. If these matters were legislative concerns which the House ought never to allow out of its grasp, what was to be thought of a proposal to turn every bench of quarter sessions in the country into a legislative assembly? Whatever might

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be their merits, the various parts of his hon. friend's speech did not hang together and form a single argumentative whole. He entirely dissented both from his hon. friend and from the right hon. Gentleman opposite as to the importance of the matters dealt with in this clause. He did not think they were of such importance as they supposed. They were matters purely of machinery, and he did not think it would be to the advantage of the House unnecessarily to cumber legislation with them. If there was anything which must have been brought home to every Member of the House, he would not say in the course of the present session, or of the last decade, but of the last twenty years, it was that the difficulty of getting a Bill through the House in the face of discussion, which might be of the most legitimate kind, was augmenting. It had produced some expedients to which he had himself given the sanction of his own example, but which he admitted were not of a kind to conduce to lucidity in legislation—for instance, legislation by reference. That method had been resorted to by both Parties. It was not that any Government desired to keep from the House matters which the House ought to discuss, I but that any expedient by which the discussion of a Bill in the House could be shortened the Government of the day were almost bound to grasp at. Unless they did so it was really hardly possible to get through the modicum of legislation which was admitted on both sides to be necessary.
In his opinion the expedient adopted in Clause 6 was far less open to objection than the extreme cases of legislation by reference which themselves he regarded as necessary. Of course, it was possible to abuse the power of handing over to the Home Secretary or any other Minister, responsibilities which the House does not wish to take upon itself. But would anybody say that those powers were abused in the present case? The right hon. Gentleman had alluded to the Factory Acts, and said with perfect truth that it was necessary in these cases in order to secure elasticity that the Home Secretary should have great power of varying provisions with regard to different trades and districts. This power was of incomparably greater importance than anything
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in this purely machinery clause. With regard to the question of precedents, he reminded the Committee that by Clause 41 of the Licensing (Scotland) Act, passed by general consent last year, it rested in the first place with the licensing court—[Mr. McCRAE: Which is partly representative]—and then with the Secretary for Scotland, to deal with matters which were more than mere matters of machinery. He did not, however, care to rest this question on precedents, though precedents might be quoted. In a matter of machinery he thought it would be lunacy to insist that the whole machinery should be set out to be discussed and made an instrument of obstruction or a cause of long delay. Moreover, there was an inherent advantage in leaving these questions of machinery to an executive officer responsible to the House, because changes might occur, and the conditions in one district might differ from those in another. It would, of course, be possible to discuss the conduct of the executive officer in Committee of Supply.
MR. ROSEapologised for not having been in his place when his Amendment came on. The Prime Minister had said that this was purely a question of machinery, but having had considerable experience, he could say that machinery was frequently of vital importance. He firmly believe that if Parliament had the power of considering and drawing up carefully the regulations under which this measure would be worked, then it might be a step forward in temperance reform; but if the regulations were narrow and restricted, no decided progress would be made in temperance reform. Parliament should certainly have something to say in the drawing up of the regulations which would be the driving power of the machinery of the Act.
SIR JAMES JOICEYsaid that it was perfectly clear that the Bill as it stood proposed to take away very important powers from the control of the House, and he confessed he looked upon this with considerable alarm, because he felt sure that the system would be developed

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in other Bills and that practically the power which now rested with the House would be taken away and given to Government Departments. He had had a good deal to do with Government Departments, and he had come to the conclusion that all the wisdom did not rest with them. If the Bill were passed as it stood, most important matters would be left in the hands of the Home Secretary.
And, it being half-past Seven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
Committee report Progress; to sit again this evening.

EVENING SITTING.

  LICENSING BILL [4TH ALLOTTED DAY].
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]
  Clause 6:—
  Amendment again proposed—
  "In page 3, line 34, after the word 'may' to insert the words 'subject to the consent of Parliament.'"—(Mr. Lloyd-George.)
  Question proposed "That those words be there inserted."
  SIR JAMES JOICEY,continuing his speech, said he simply rose to make a protest against the proposal to hand over these great powers to the Home Office. He had always been strongly in favour of the control of Parliament, but it had become the fashion to destroy the control of Parliament and place the control in the hands of the Government Departments. It was a somewhat extraordinary fact that, very often when the Prime Minister intervened, he did so just when some concession was going to be made in respect of some reasonable Amendment; and he therefore regretted that he had intervened on this occasion. Proceeding to argue in favour of the Amendment, Sir James pointed to the Scotch Act under which the licensing authority had to make the rules, which had to be confirmed
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  by the Scotch Secretary. He thought it would be better if such a method were adopted in this Bill, for the licensing authorities were the proper persons to make the rules, but for some reason the Prime Minister was always more reasonable when dealing with Scotch legislations. If they looked at the regulations, he thought hon. Members would agree that the Bill took away from the licensing authorities a great deal of the power they ought to possess. The Home Office would practically become the licensing authority. In the Mines Regulations Act, to which the Prime Minister had referred, there was some protection to those who were affected by the rules; but in this Bill there was no such protection. This was a new departure altogether. He had the strongest objection to any such power being put in the hands of a Department, and he therefore felt it his duty to protest. He hoped the protest would have some effect and that the Solicitor-General would be able to make some concession.
  MR. RENWICKsaid he had the greatest possible objection to the Amendment. If it were carried the whole of this clause would be continuously being raised in the House. When they considered the congested state of business, that was not a state of things which anyone could look forward to with equanimity. The hon. Member for Chester-le-Street had told them the licensing committee was to be tabooed, but if this Amendment were carried it could not be anything else. He wished to see the greatest liberty possible given to licensing justices, and that seemed to be the wish of Members on both sides. He asked the House to consider what the Amendment really meant to which they were asked to consent. It meant that no rules could be made without the consent of Parliament and that every rule made would have to come before them. He did not believe the hon. Member opposite who moved the Amendment, but was not then in his place, could have given any consideration to it or he would have seen the absurdity of his suggestion. He was anxious if they were going to carry the Bill—as they were—to give the fullest power to the licensing authority, and, if hon. Members opposite were sincere in

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  their desire to do the same thing, he might point out they would be defeating their desire by carrying the Amendment.
  MR. BROADHURSTsaid that the object of this clause was to destroy all sense of independence and throw contempt upon all the local authorities. The Bill did not trust them even to decide what should be a quorum. Could anything be more absurd than that? The Committee of the House seemed to forget that there were on quarter session benches men who were as capable of administering, and as well able to decide what was just and what unjust, as most of the Members of that Committee. What could be more wanting in consideration and respect for these authorities than that the Home Office in London should make regulations, look after the application of the compensation fund, and audit the accounts of the quarter sessions? Quarter session accounts were audited now without any assistance, guidance, or help from the Home Office. Surely quarter sessions were perfectly capable of regulating the procedure of their own committees. He was amazed to find a great Department of State like the Home Office passing judgment and condemnation upon the common sense and administrative capacity of quarter sessions. The whole thing was a succession of insults to these old institutions.
  SIR FREDERICK BANBURYon a point of order, asked if the hon. Member had read the Amendment. The Amendment was not to take away powers from the quarter sessions but to say that rules should be made by the Home Office, subject to the consent of Parliament.
  MR. BROADHURSTsaid he would respectfully suggest that he was perfectly capable of understanding what he was talking about and was not in the least likely to be instructed or assisted by the hon. Member for Peckham. He agreed that while the Amendment would do something to retain the existing rights of ancient bodies it would have been better if it had proposed the omission of Clause 6 altogether. Nobody knew better than the Solicitor-General that the clause was unworthy of the great
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  Department of State it concerned. It was drafted on the principle of "teaching one's grandmother to suck eggs." Brewster sessions and quarter sessions were quite as capable of dealing with the Licensing Acts as the Home Office, and if the mover of the Amendment went to a division he should certainly support him. It would at least secure some measure of protection to those bodies, since it ensured that the rules should not come into operation until they had lain on the Table of the House for at least forty days.
  MR. LLOYD WHARTONsaid he was entirely against the Amendment. He could not see why Parliament should be entrusted with the examination of the rules, for already its time was sufficiently taken up with other work. Up till 1888 quarter sessions had the whole of county finance to deal with. Since then the county councils had taken most of that work over. He believed that quarter sessions were still competent to deal with finance to some extent, and he suggested that certain matters in the sub-clauses should be referred to the quarter sessions, such as the borrowing of money, rules of procedure, etc. As chairman of quarter sessions he should be glad to be under the advice and sanction of the Home Office. Meanwhile he suggested that the chairmen of quarter sessions and the Home Office should meet, and having discussed the procedure to be evolved under the Act, draw up rules which would be satisfactory for the guidance of all.
  MR. GEORGE WHITEsaid that the object of the Amendment was somewhat misunderstood. The desire of those who supported it was that part of the rules might be left to quarter sessions, and the remainder submitted to Parliament instead of being entirely in the control of the Home Secretary. It was important to remember that the Bill had been passed through the House under very exceptional circumstances. The great powers proposed to be entrusted to the Home Secretary might be justified if the Bill had been thoroughly threshed out in Committee. Then it would have been for the House to determine what those powers should be which were to be delegated to the Home Secretary. But

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  the Bill had been forced through the House without adequate opportunity for debate, and the House might well be jealous of the rights it conferred upon the Home Secretary. He could not agree with the Prime Minister that the rules were a mere matter of machinery. They raised many important questions of principle. By the first sub-section of the clause the Home Secretary had to keep the licence provisionally alive, pending an appeal against an adverse decision. That was a clear intimation that a licence was dead at the end of the year, and, but for the power placed in the hands of the Home Secretary, would actually expire—an argument for which the Opposition had been contending throughout. That power might, or might not be wisely exercised by the Home Secretary, but it justified the contention of the Opposition. Some part of this sub-section was not very intelligible. It provided for the provisional renewal of licences which were included in the reports of the licensing justices, and for consultations with the justices as to their reports, and the time and manner of the consideration of those reports. Surely that did not take cognisance of the fact that brewster sessions was a Court of justice. He did not quite understand how the Home Secretary was to have consultations with the justices upon these reports. Someone must have an injustice done him by such an arrangement—either the licensee or the public—by ex parte statements made in consultation with the Home Secretary.
  SIR EDWARD CARSON: The hon. Member is an error. The consultation is between the licensing justices and quarter sessions, and has nothing to do with the Home Secretary.
  MR. GEORGE WHITEsaid the same argument applied. Those who had to arbitrate had no right to hear ex parte statements. He did not see any provisions made for the public to appear. There was very much more care taken of the interests of the trade than of the public. He asked the Government to reconsider the whole matter and allow a part of these duties to devolve upon quarter sessions, which could deal with them better than the
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  Home Secretary, who could not know all the circumstances; and though there was a good deal to be said for placing some of these matters in the hands of the Home Secretary, others certainly ought to be subject to revision by Parliament.
  MR. AKERS-DOUGLASsaid he did not think the Government had shown any desire to take from quarter sessions any further powers than they thought absolutely necessary. Before making these rules, his first effort would be to secure the co-operation of the experienced representatives of quarter sessions and to ask them to assist him, probably by serving on a committee with expert officials of the Home Office, in framing these rules. That was the ordinary way in which rules were framed under any Act passed through that House. It was on the ground of uniformity that he desired to retain the rule-making power in the hands of the Secretary of State. He could assure the Committee that it was with no desire to override quarter sessions or local opinion. He would endeavour to get all the assistance possible from those who had been accustomed to carry out the duties of quarter sessions and who in future would have to carry out the provisions of this Bill.
  MR. ELLIS GRIFFITHsaid the complaint of the Opposition against this clause was that it introduced a vicious principle into the legislation of the country. He was surprised that the hon. Member for Leicester should stand up as the champion of quarter sessions; he had always known that that Assembly was the Mother of Parliaments, but he had not known before that quarter sessions were the grandmother of the Home Secretary—that being the only inference he could draw from his hon. friend's speech. The Home Secretary's explanation of the manner in which he would make these rules was not at all reassuring. The Bill under discussion was not an uncontroversial measure dealing with factories or the regulation of mines; it was a measure so controversial in its character and so political in its clauses that the Government had had to adopt exceptional methods to pass it into law. And yet the Home Secretary, who was not only a great executive officer but a

  1559
  man of keen political perception, was to frame the rules! The proposal showed a great lack of trust in quarter sessions. They were not to be trusted to settle even the quorum of the committee! He was not previously aware of the existence of the Association of Chairmen of Quarter Sessions, which the right hon. Gentleman proposed to consult, bat it was certain to be a body of one political complexion, and in connection with the administration of a partisan measure such as that under discussion, it would be less capable than one would wish of that impartiality which was so desirable in a body by which the Home Secretary was to be advised. In Clause 6 Parliament was legislating not only by compartment but by Department. However valuable the Home Secretary might be as an executive officer, he was not the gentleman to legislate as provided for in this Bill. What was really meant by Sub-section (c)? Was it really intended that the Home Secretary, after consultation with the chairmen of quarter sessions, should regulate the application of the compensation fund? If so, the right hon. Gentleman would be able to override all the clauses of the Bill. Whatever the Home Secretary did ought to be subject to the control and authority of Parliament, and upon that ground he supported the Amendment.
  MR. H. C. RICHARDSurged the necessity of securing uniformity in the rules of quarter sessions. In each of the counties of London, Middlesex, Sussex, and Kent the rules with regard to licensing matters were different, and it was most difficult for persons called upon professionally to go from one county to another to know exactly how to comply with the different regulations. If it had been proposed that the Local Government Board or the Board of Trade should draw up these rules he would have voted with the Opposition, because in those Departments the permanent officials controlled everything; but at the Home Office it was quite different. The Home Secretary was surrounded by experienced gentlemen who were able to give the intelligent construction which was so much required in these matters. He somewhat favoured the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ripon that the quarter sessions should meet and
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  submit rules to the Home Office, but on the whole he thought the Home Secretary had made out his case for a meeting between himself and the representatives of quarter sessions for the purpose of arranging a set of rules. His main purpose in rising, however, was to express astonishment at the speech of the hon. Member for Leicester, who had made an heroic defence of quarter sessions. He had had the pleasure of reading the speeches of the hon. Member for some twenty-five years, and had followed his career with the greatest interest, and he noted that his defence of quarter sessions had only occurred since the hon. Member had been put on the commission of the peace for the county of Norfolk. ["Oh!"] He had a high opinion of quarter sessions when the removables were not on, but when he saw the way in which these gentlemen were brought up to support each other's local authority in cases where a local authority was trying to run down some unfortunate private individual, he had not that respect for quarter sessions that he used to have.
  MR. BROADHURST: Who are the removables?
  MR. H. C. RICHARDSsaid they were the gentlemen who sat for one year and upwards, the chairmen of urban and district councils, who as a rule were a disgrace to the bench. ["Oh!" and "Order."]
  MR. BROADHURST: On the point of order, Sir. I am not aware whether there is any Gentleman in this House who acts as justice of the peace in consequence of being chairman of a local authority—I am certainly not one—but at any rate I ask whether it is in order for an hon. Member of this House to charge justices of the peace with being a disgrace to the bench.
  THE CHAIRMAN: It is doubtful at any time whether it is a desirable thing for a Member of this House to make use of his position to violently attack private individuals. Personally I should very much like to see the rule considerably modified. But the rule does exist, and apparently a Member of this House may attack in any unmeasured terms anybody

  1561
  who is outside the House without any fear of the consequences. At the same time I think the hon. Member's reference to these gentlemen as being a disgrace to the Bench is rather a strong expression, and I hope he may see his way to modify it.
  MR. H. C. RICHARDSsaid any expression which fell from the Chair would have his sincere attempt at obedience. He would modify the letter of his observation, though the spirit would remain the same ["Order" and "Withdraw"]; they were not a disgrace to the bench, because the bench had been so altered now—
  AN HON.MEMBER: Withdraw generously.
  MR. H. C. RICHARDSsaid it was one thing when quarter sessions were represented by gentlemen like the hon. Member for Leicester or the hon. Member for King's Lynn, whose only idea, they knew, would be to administer justice, but quite a different thing when gentlemen of less experience acted on quarter sessions for a brief time. The Bill was to come into operation as soon as the Royal Assent had been given; it would therefore be absurd not to be able to bring the rules into operation until the meeting of Parliament or forty days after.
  MR. THOMAS SHAWexpressed his high appreciation of the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ripon, which he understood to be that quarter sessions should be allowed first to make substantial regulations as to detail and procedure, and that after that there should be, if necessary, the imprimatur of the Home Office. He was of opinion that the precedent of the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1903, cited by the Prime Minister, was really in favour, not of the clause under discussion, but of the suggestion made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ripon. The present clause read—
  "A Secretary of State may make rules…"
  whereas in Section 49 of the Act cited the words were—
  "Without prejudice to their other powers under this Act. A licensing Court may from time to time make by-laws as they think fit."
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  and Sub-section (2) provided that—

  "A by-law made by a licensing Court under this section shall not come into operation until it has been confirmed by the Secretary for Scotland."
  The precedent cited by the Prime Minister for the clause was no precedent at all. He did not think it should be in the power of the Secretary of State to make the rules regulating the application of the compensation fund. That was a matter of statecraft. The idea of a defence being offered for this clause on the ground that it was a necessity of our Parliamentary procedure was another instance of the desire of the Government to transfer duties which properly belonged to Parliament to the shoulders of State officials. In these important matters it was now proposed to divorce the control of Parliament and relegate to a set of State officials at Whitehall the regulation, management, and application of the compensation fund. That appeared to him to be a matter on which the consent of Parliament ought to be taken. Quarter sessions might vary in their circumstances, and they might wish to make different regulations in regard to their procedure, and why should they not do so, and afterwards apply for the consent of the Secretary of State? That system was working well in Scotland, and it would give local authorities more power of initiative and less power to the Secretary of State. While he had offered these remarks in no controversial spirit, he perfectly understood that the scheme of the Bill was to give more power, jurisdiction, and control to the quarter sessions of the country. He did not, however, expect to find any supporter of the Government using the liberty, which they all had, to attack the personnel of quarter sessions in the language they had just heard. Amid all the criticisms of the Bill he knew of none which suggested that having regard to the character or qualifications of the personnel of the bench they were doing wrong in vesting them with these additional powers.
  SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid he had always deprecated attacks on the justices who had to administer the law, whether in this country or in Ireland. He was afraid it was a matter of complaint that

  1563
  parties in that House did attack those who had no power to answer for themselves. That was a matter in regard to which both sides ought to be equally jealous, and he was afraid complaint as to the practice could not come from one side more than from the other. The Amendment before the Committee was that the rules ought to be laid before Parliament, and the Prime Minister had quoted the Scotch precedent to show that equally important rules were withdrawn from the cognisance of Parliament. The debate was now turning on the question whether the rules ought to be made by quarter sessions or by the Home Secretary, a matter entirely inconsistent with the Amendment. The hon. Member for Leicester, who had had some experience at the Home Office, said that they might strike out Clause 6 altogether and that the Bill would work perfectly well with the rules quarter sessions would lay down. If that were true what became of the argument that there was legislation in Clause 6. It was simply a question of which was the best method of procedure. Several hon. Members who had spoken had apparently forgotten that, in the course of the afternoon, he had accepted an Amendment by which quarter sessions were to be allowed to regulate their own procedure in the one important matter dealt with in Clause 6 which most properly appertained to quarter sessions. There were, however, some matters in this clause which ought to be left in the hands of the Home Office, and he could not see his way to alter the clause in the way which the hon. Member for Ripon had suggested. The hon. Member stated that the question of the renewal of the licence was a very important one. He wished to point out that they had already enacted that quarter sessions alone could refuse the renewal of a licence. If there was legislation in the clause he should be as jealous as any Member of the House of relegating it to a Department. But the matters provided for by the clause were all matters of a purely administrative nature. The question of delegating legislative powers to the Home Office was not at all involved. It was of importance, for the smooth working of the Act, that there should be uniformity of administration throughout the country,
  1564
  and that uniformity would be secured by the formulation of rules by the Home Office, which, of course, would act in consultation with the representatives of quarter sessions.
  MR. BRYN ROBERTS (Carnarvonshire,)agreed that it was desirable to have uniformity; but the clause destroyed uniformity instead of achieving it, because it set aside the safeguard which Parliament had provided against abuses in the formulation of rules by a Department. This procedure was by no means new, and it had been almost constantly applied in this House. It had been of such constant application that not long ago an Act of Parliament had to be passed for the purpose of regulating it. He thought it was incumbent upon the Government to show that there was some special reason in this particular case why the method adopted should not be the usual method enacted by Parliament to be followed. Promises made across the floor of the House were very ephemeral, and were often forgotten. He protested against the abuse of legislation by rules where the Act of Parliament was set aside in favour of a loose statement made across the floor of the House. Up to the present when a final body of rules were fixed they were laid before Parliament, and when Parliament did not move an Address they automatically became law without any further trouble. Why was that procedure not to be followed in this case? There ought to be some explanation why it was not followed. The argument that this was a matter of machinery was beside the mark. On that side they acknowledged that there must be rules regarding details which could not be framed in the House and which must be delegated, but what they did not acknowledge was that the power of repudiation, provided for by the Rules Publication Act, should be absolutely taken away as it was by this proposal.
  MR. LLOYD WHARTONthanked the Home Secretary for conceding the suggestion he had made. He believed that a joint consultation between the Home Office and some members of quarter sessions would lead to the acceleration of a satisfactory settlement of this question. In that way they would get unanimity

  1565
  instead of each quarter sessions agreeing upon their own rules.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSONsaid he interposed for the purpose of recommending to the attention of the Solicitor-General the compromise which had been suggested by his hon friend behind him. What his hon. friend proposed was that words should be introduced in the Bill requiring that the rules should be laid before Parliament. That would not in any way subject the rules to discussion in Parliament. It would not make them exempted business, and they could not come on for discussion after twelve o'clock, but it would bring the rules within the Rules Publication Act of 1893 which contained some valuable provisions. He asked the Solicitor-General whether he could not see his way to agree to this compromise and promise to introduce words so as to allow the rules to be laid before Parliament.
  SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid he quite agreed as to the usefulness of the Rules Publication Act to which his hon. friend had referred. If there were any rules to be made under this Bill of the character and importance which required them to be laid before Parliament, he should at once accede to the request which had been made, but having thought over the matter, and knowing the importance of being able to revise the rules—because in the first instance they might be tentative—he really did suggest to the hon. and learned Member that there was nothing in the rules to make it necessary to go through the formality required by the Rules Act of 1893. The rules were intended merely to smooth the working of the Bill. They contained nothing to which any one could object.
  MR. LAWSON WALTONsaid he wished to make one observation in relation to the proposed method of procedure under the Bill. The Solicitor-General, following the Prime Minister, said this was purely a matter of machinery. He was not aware of any kind of statutory construction by which they could distinguish between what was mere machinery and what was a substantive provision. What was proposed by the scheme now before the Committee was

  1566
  to cast upon some Department a burden which rested upon the House itself, namely, to regulate the method by which that law was to be administered. What was here proposed was entirely novel, and he supposed it was due to the over-burdening of the Parliamentary machine. He could not accept the statement or the Solicitor-General that these rules were mere machinery, that there would be nothing of a substantive character in them, that therefore it did not much matter who made the rules provided he was someone competent, and that it did not much matter when they were made.
  SIR EDWARD CARSON: They should be made as quickly as possible.
  MR. LAWSON WALTONsaid they had had experience in connection with certain recent Acts of Parliament, that where the framing of rules was left to one of the Departments of the State, the duty was not carried out. In this case they were getting rid of a burden placed upon them, and shuffling it on to the shoulders of some Department, but they were not laying down any period in which the rules should be framed, and they were not providing for checking them officially after they had been constructed. In connection with more than one statute they had had the will of Parliament reduced to futility, owing to the fact that an obligation placed on a Department had not been discharged. The Solicitor-General had said that it was undesirable that these rules should be left to quarter sessions, because they would lack the uniformity which ought to characterise rules of universal application. That was the very test which showed that they did belong to the sphere of legislation. The moment it was necessary that the rules should be of universal application they found a condition of things to which legislation, and legislation alone, was applicable in order to impart the uniformity to the system which was desired. If there was to be uniformity, he submitted that they at once invoked legislative authority in order to impose on a reluctant, or indifferent, or objecting jurisdiction, the will of some central authority. Was that to be the Home Office or not?

  1567
  There was this important consideration, that when previous Acts of Parliament had been under consideration the rules had been framed before the Bill was introduced. He should not be challenging this method of procedure if the rules had been framed, but this legislation was immature, it was crude, it had not been fully developed, because the Government left to a vague and indefinite future the framing of rules which were essential to give effect to this legislation. In many Acts of Parliament during the past few years, schedules had contained the rules so that Parliament could consider them contemporaneously with the measure which was to give effect to them and add to them the sanction of law. He presumed that his right hon. friend would tell them that the rules had never been discussed. Therefore this was a new departure in legislation. He defied his hon. and learned friend to distinguish between what was substantive and what was procedure. He remembered that the House spent many hours in considering matters of procedure in connection with the Workmen's Compensation Act. The Committee had spent hours in discussing the details of this measure, but the whole legislation was to be at the mercy of the Home Department, which might make rules which would defeat the views of the House. As a constitutional lawyer he protested against these rules being forced on quarter sessions by the Home Office. When it was considered that it was essential that rules should be uniform and general in their application, then they had a legislative character and should find a place in a schedule of the Act. The rules should be laid before Parliament and subjected to Parliamentary review. Experience had shown how the intention of an Act might be defeated by the procedure adopted in putting it in force.
  MR. BOUSFIELDsaid the time had gone by when the House could afford to spend hours in discussing procedure under such a measure as this. The duty of framing rules ought to be carried out by the Departments. The practice was to frame draft rules, then to consult a large number of people interested in the subject and invite suggestions from them for their improvement. He
  1568
  had no doubt that in this case the draft rules would be submitted to the chairmen of quarter sessions and others, and the result would be that a practical set of rules would be drawn up. If they were to frame rules by legislation, there would be a loss of flexibility and adaptability, and many mistakes might be-made which could only be rectified with much difficulty and expense.
  MR. AINSWORTHsaid that before they divided as to the whole clause, he might be allowed to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman the Solicitor-General to what he thought was a perfectly parallel case. Under the Education Act every educational authority was required to send up a scheme to the Education Department for approval. He would suggest that if the details were to be withdrawn from Parliament, every quarter sessions should be required to send up a licensing scheme to the Home Secretary, so that he might have every information before him, and be able to decide whether the scheme was one which would work in the circumstances of the locality.
  MR. DISRAELIsaid that in his very interesting speech the hon. Member for Hackney advocated the rules being framed, and carried out by the Department. They all knew that the hon. Member for Hackney got a Bill through the House which required considerable assistance from the Home Secretary, but no Judge or member of the legal profession would have anything to do with it. He must say that there was a good deal in what the hon. and learned Member for Leeds had stated in regard to this question. After the way the Home Office had behaved in regard to the last clause, he did not know that they were much to be trusted in carrying out these important regulations. He thought that such matters should be left to the decision either of this House or of quarter sessions. The rules were to provide for the provisional renewal of licences, and for the payment of compensation; to provide for the enforcement of any security for any borrowed money, and for its repayment; to regulate the management and application of the compensation fund, and the

  1569
  audit of accounts; to provide for the appointment of committees, the regulation of procedure in granting a new licence; and to provide for the authentication of documents. Now, these were matters which at the present moment were dealt with by the licensing authorities, and there was not one of those regulations which could not be framed by quarter sessions or petty sessions without the assistance of the Home Office. The Solicitor-General said that he wanted uniformity, and so the Home Office was to make rules and regulations; but on the previous day the Prime Minister said that he was in favour of variety, and for that reason petty sessions were to make their own rules and regulations. He did not understand that contradiction. He was very strongly of opinion that, whatever might be the merits of the Department in drawing up regulations, these rules and regulations under this Bill should be made either by the House or by quarter sessions.
  MR. BRYN ROBERTSmoved to insert the words, "with the consent of Parliament." The simple effect of that Amendment would be that the machinery of the 1893 Act would be adopted. The Home Secretary would publish the rules provisionally, and after a certain number of days any local body might take objection to them. The Home Secretary would then, after considering the objections, publish them as final rules, which would be laid on the Table of the House and after a certain number of
  days they would become law, unless some Members objected. There was no objection to that method being adopted in this Bill. It would secure that the public would be heard, that quarter sessions would be heard, and that Parliament would have an opportunity of reviewing them.
  THE CHAIRMANsaid the proper course for the hon. Member to take would be to ask the hon. Member for Newmarket to withdraw his Amendment, and then to submit his own.
  MR. BRYN ROBERTSsaid he thought his Amendment would come after the rules; but he agreed to the Chairman's ruling.
  MR. LOUGHsaid he hoped the Solicitor-General would agree to some compromise on the point. Many hon. Members could not go the full length of the Amendment, but it was perfectly reasonable that there should be some method of publication before the rules became operative.
  SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid that it was desirable that there should be no delay whatever in the preparation of the rules, and that there should be the greatest possible elasticity for revising the rules. He could not accept the Amendment.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 181; Noes, 263. (Division List No. 230.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Burt, Thomas

  Doogan, P. C.

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark

  Allen, Charles P.

  Caldwell, James

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Asher, Alexander

  Cameron, Robert

  Edwards, Frank

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Elibank, Master of

  Asquith, Rt Hon Herbert Henry

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Ellice, Capt E C (SAndrw's Bghs

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Cawley, Frederick

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts)

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Emmott, Alfred

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Bell, Richard

  Cremer, William Randal

  Fenwick, Charles

  Benn, John Williams

  Crombie, John William

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Black, Alexander William

  Crooks, William

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Boland, John

  Cullinan, J.

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.

  Brigg, John

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan

  Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Delany, William

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Dobbie, Joseph

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Grant, Corrie

  Lough, Thomas

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick

  Lundon, W.

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Griffiths, Ellis J.

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Sheehy, David

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  M'Crae, George

  Slack, John Bamford

  Hain, Edward

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Harcourt, Lewis V (Rossendale

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Harwood, George

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

  Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Moss, Samuel

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Sullivan, Donal

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham

  Murphy, John

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Higham, John Sharpe

  Norman, Henry

  Tennant, Harold John

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  O'Dowd, John

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Horniman, Frederick John

  O'Malley, William

  Tomkinson, James

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Toulmin, George

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  O'Shee, James John

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Parrott, William

  Wallace, Robert

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Partington, Oswald

  Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S

  Joicey, Sir James

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Perks, Robert William

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

  Joyce, Michael

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Kemp, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Price, Robert John

  Whiteley, George (York, W R.

  Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W

  Priestley, Arthur

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Kitson, Sir James

  Rea, Russell

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Lambert, George

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Langley, Batty

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Rose, Charles Day

  Leng, Sir John

  Runciman, Walter

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Levy, Maurice

  Russell, T. W.

  Herbert Gladstone and Mr.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Schwann, Charles E.

  William M-'Arthur.

  Lloyd-George, David

  Shackleton, Daivd James

  NOES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Davenport, William Bromley

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Bull, William James

  Denny, Colonel

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tower Haml'ts

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon Sir H

  Butcher, John George

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Austin, Sir John

  Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ.

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Joseph C

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Doughty, Sir George

  Balcarres, Lord

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Balfour, Rt Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn J A (Wore.

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Chapman, Edward

  Dyke, Rt. Hon Sir William Hart

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

  Charrington, Spencer

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J (Manc'r

  Bartley, Sir George C. T.

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Colomb, Rt. Hon. Sir John C R

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Fison, Frederick William

  Bigwood, James

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose

  Bill, Charles

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.

  Fitzroy, Hon Edward Algernon

  Bingham, Lord

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Bond, Edward

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Forster, Henry William

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Foster, Philip S (Warwick S W.

  1572

  1573

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Gardner, Ernest

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Garfit, William

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh, W

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Gordon, Hn. L E (Elgin & Nairn)

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Gordon, Maj Evans (T'r H'mlets

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  Greene, Sir E W (B'ry S Edmnd's

  Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H E (Wigt'n

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Maxwell, W. J. H (Dumfriesshire

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Gretton, John

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Groves, James Grimble

  Milner, Rt Hon Sir Frederick G.

  Smith, Abel H (Hertford, East

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Milvain, Thomas

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks)

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Spear, John Ward

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford

  Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants)

  Spencer, Sir E (W Bromwich)

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Stanley, Hon Arthur (Ormskirk

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)

  Morgan, David J (Walthamstow

  Stanley, Edward Jas (Somerset

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lanes.

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Stock, James Henry

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Heath, James (Staffords. N. W.

  Mount, William Arthur

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G (Oxf'd (Univ

  Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.)

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Murray, Rt Hn. A. Graham (Bute

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Myers, William Henry

  Tomlinson, Sir Win. Edw. M.

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Newdegate, Francis A. N.

  Tuff, Charles

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Howard, John (Kent, Faversham

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Tully, Jasper

  Hozier, Hon James Henry Cecil

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Vincent, Col. Sir C E H (Sheffield

  Hunt, Rowland

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Percy, Earl

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A C E (Taunton

  Kennaway, Rt Hon Sir John H.

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Welby, Sir Charles G E (Notts)

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Piatt-Higgins, Frederick

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. JohnLloyd

  Kerr, John

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Willoughby, de Eresby, Lord

  Lawrence, Win. F. (Liverpool)

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N R

  Pym, C. Guy

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareham

  Randles, John S.

  Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H. (Yorks.

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Leveson-Gower, Fredrick N. S.

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Renwick, George

  Wylie, Alexander

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon George

  Long, Rt. Hn Walter (Bristol, S.

  Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge

  Young, Samuel

  Lowe, Francis William

  Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

  Younger, William

  Lowther, C. (Cumb, Eskdale)

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  TELLERS FOE THE NOES—Sir

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft

  Robinson, Brooke

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

  Question, "That the Amendment be made," put, and agreed to.

  And, it being after Eleven of the clock, the Chairman proceeded, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 5th July, successively to put forthwith the Question on any Amendments moved by the Government of which notice had been given, and on every Question necessary to dispose
  1574
  of the allotted Business to be concluded on the 4th allotted Day.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 4, line 8, after the word 'committees,' to insert the words 'of quarter sessions and for the constitution of those committees where requisite as standing committees,

  1575
  and also for the addition to those committees in the case of a county, of representatives of the justices of any boroughs within the county not being county boroughs, but having a separate commission of the peace.'"—(Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.)
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 4, line 10, to leave out from the word 'procedure,' to the word 'and,' in line 13, and insert the words "of quarter sessions on the consideration of the reports of justices
  of a licensing district under this Act and on any hearing under this Act with reference to the refusal of the renewal of on-licences or the division of the amount to be paid as compensation.'"—(Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.)
  Question put, "That the clause, as-amended, stand part of the Bill."
  The Committee divided—Ayes, 267:, Noes, 182. (Division List, No. 231.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Heath, James (Staffords. N. W.

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Davenport, William Bromley

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

  Henderson, Sir A (Stafford, W.)

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Denny, Colonel

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt Hon Sir H.

  Dewar, Sir T R (Tower Hamlets

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Austin, Sir John

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Joseph C

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Howard, J. (Kent, Faversham)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Doogan, P. C.

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Doughty, Sir George

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Balfour, Rt. Hon A J (Manch'r

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Hunt, Rowland

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon Arthur Fred.

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Dyke, Rt Hon Sir William Hart

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon Sir John H

  Bartley, Sir George C. T.

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W)

  Kenyon, Hon Geo T. (Denbigh)

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J. (Manc'r

  Kerr, John

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Keswick, William

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Bigwood, James

  Fison, Frederick William

  Lawrence, Win. F. (Liverpool)

  Bill, Charles

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks N R

  Bingham, Lord

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareh'm

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Bond, Edward

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Forster, Henry William

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Foster, Philip S (Warwick, S. W.

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Bull, William James

  Gardner, Ernest

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Garfit, William

  Long, Rt Hn Walter (Bristol, S.

  Butcher, John George

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  Lowe, Francis William

  Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ.

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn)

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Gordon, Maj Evans- (T'r H'mlets

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn J A (Worc.

  Greene, Sir E W (B'ry S Edm'nds

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Chapman, Edward

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Charrington, Spencer

  Grenfell, William Henry

  M'lver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Gretton, John

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Groves, James Grimble

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Colomb, Rt. Hon. Sir John CR

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H E (Wigt'n)

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriesshir

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Milner, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Milvain, Thomas

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G (Oxford Univ

  Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Renwick, George

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green)

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Tuff, Charles

  Morton, Arthur H. Alymer

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Mount, William Arthur

  Robinson, Brooke

  Tully, Jasper

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Valentia, Viscount

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Vincent, Col Sir C E H (Sheffield)

  Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute)

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Myers, William Henry

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton

  Newdegate, Francis A. N.

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.)

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Nolan, Col John P (Galway, N)

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-und-Lyne

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  O'Dowd, John

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Wilson-Todd, Sir W H (Yorks.)

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Percy, Earl

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

  Wylie, Alexander

  Piatt-Higgins, Frederick

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Spear, John Ward

  Young, Samuel

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharpe

  Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

  Younger, William

  Pretyman, Ernest Geogre

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Stanley, Edward Jas (Somerset)

  TELLERS FOB THE AYES.—Sir

  Pym, C. Guy

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lanes.)

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Randles, John S.

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

  Rankin, Sir James

  Stock, James Henry

  Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Crombie, John William

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Allen, Charles P.

  Crooks, William

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Asher, Alexander

  Cullinan, J.

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Hain, Edward

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Harcourt, Lewis V. (Rossendale

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Delany, William

  Harwood, George

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Helme, Horval Watson

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Dobbie, Joseph

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Bell, Richard

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Benn, John Williams

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Higham, John Sharpe

  Black, Alexander William

  Edwards, Frank

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

  Boland, John

  Elibank, Master of

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Ellice, Capt E C (S Andrw's Bghs.

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West

  Brigg, John

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Horniman, Frederick, John

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Emmott, Alfred

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Burt, Thomas

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Joicey, Sir James

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Fenwick, Charles

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

  Caldwell, James

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Cameron, Robert

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Joyce, Michael

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Kemp, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Cawley, Frederick

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.

  Kitson, Sir James

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Lambert, George

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Langley, Batty

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

  Grant, Corrie

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  1578

  1579

  Layland-Barrall, Francis

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Sullivan, Donal

  Leese, Sir Joseph F (Accrington)

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Perks, Robert William

  Tennant, Harold John

  Leng, Sir John

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Levy, Maurice

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Price, Robert John

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Lloyd-George, David

  Priestley, Arthur

  Tomkinson, James

  Lough, Thomas

  Rea, Russell

  Toulmin, George

  Lundon, W.

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips.

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries)

  Wallace, Robert

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  M'Crae, George

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Rose, Charles Day

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.)

  Runciman, Walter

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Russell, T. W.

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Moss, Samuel

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Shackleton, David James

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth).

  Murphy, John

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Norman, Henry

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Slack, John Bamford

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf'd

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  O'Malley, William

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Soares, Ernest J.

  TELLERS FOK THE NOES—Mr.

  Parrott, William

  Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

  Herbert Gladstone and Mr.

  Partington, Oswald

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  William M'Arthur.

  Question, "That the Amendment be made," put, and agreed to.

  Clause 7:—
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 4, line 20, after the word 'substitution,' to insert the words 'for quarter sessions.'"—(Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.)
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 4, line 21, to leave out the words 'for quarter sessions."'—(Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.)
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 4, line 21, to leave out from the word 'sessions,' to the end of line 24."—(Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.)
  Question put, "That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 267; Noes, 178. (Division List No. 232.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Bigwood, James

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Bill, Charles

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Bingham, Lord

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon Sir H

  Bond, Edward

  Colomb, Rt. Hon. Sir John C. R.

  Austin, Sir John

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Bagot, Capt. Joseline FitzRoy

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Bull, William James

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Butcher, John George

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r.)

  Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ.

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Davenport, W. Bromley

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds)

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christen.

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Denny, Colonel

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tower Hamlets

  Bartley, Sir George C. T.

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn J A (Worc.)

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

  Chapman, Edward

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Joseph C

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Charrington, Spencer

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge

  Doogan, P. C.

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Greene

  Doughty, Sir Geogre

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Robinson, Brooke

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.)

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Lowe, Francis William

  Ropner, Colonel, Sir Robert

  Faber, Edmund, B. (Hants, W.)

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Mane' r

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Fison, Frederick William

  Macdona, John dimming

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  Forster, Henry William

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick S.W.

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Gardner, Ernest

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Garfit, William

  Maxwell Rt Hn Sir H. E. (Wigt'n

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  Maxwell, W. J.H. (Dumfriessh'r

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

  Gordon, Hn.J.E. (Elgin&Nairn)

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Gordon, Maj Evans (T'r H'mlets

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Spear, John Ward

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby

  Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G.

  Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Milvain, Thomas

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset)

  Graham, Henry, Robert

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.)

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.)

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Greene, Sir E. W. (B'ry S Ed m'nds

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Stock, James Henry

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Gretton, John

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

  Groves, James Grimble

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Taylor. Austin (East Toxteth)

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Mount, William Arthur

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Mowrbay, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Murray, Rt. Hn A Graham (Bute

  Tuff, Charles

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)

  Murray, Charles J (Coventry)

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Tully, Jasper

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Myers, William Henry

  Valentia, Viscount

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Newdegate, Francis A. N.

  Vincent, Col. Sir CEH (Sheffield)

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley)

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Heath, James (Staffords, N. W.).

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Henderson, Sir A (Stafford, W.)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Percy, Earl

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Howard, John (Kent, Favershao

  Pier point, Robert

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H. (Yorks.)

  Hunt, Rowland

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Wylie, Alexander

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Pym, C. Guy

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Randles, John S.

  Young, Samuel

  Kerr, John

  Rankin, Sir James

  Younger, William

  Keswick, William

  Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Lawrence, Win. F. (Liverpool)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N. R

  Renwick, George

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

  Richards, Henry Charles

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Allen, Charles P.

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Asher, Alexander

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  1582

  1583

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Partington, Oswald

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Hain, Edward

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Harcourt, Lewis V. (Rossendale

  Perks, Robert William

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Bell, Richard

  Harwood, George

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Benn, John Williams

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Price, Robert John

  Black, Alexander William

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Priestley, Arthur

  Boland, John

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Rea, Russell

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Brigg, John

  Higham, John Sharpe

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.

  Roberts, J. Bryn (Eifion)

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Rose, Charles Day

  Burt, Thomas

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fred.

  Runciman, Walter

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Hutton Alfred E. (Morley)

  Russell, T. W.

  Caldwell, James

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland

  Cameron, Robert

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Joicey, Sir James

  Shackleton, David James

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Joyce, Michael

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Slack, John Bamford

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Kemp, Lieut.-Col. George

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W.

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

  Kitson, Sir James

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Cremer, William Randal

  Lambert, George

  Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

  Crombie, John William

  Langley, Batty

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Crooks, William

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  Sullivan, Donal

  Cullinan, J.

  Lawson, Sir. Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Taylor, T. C. (Radcliffe)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Tennant, Harold John

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Davies, M. (Vaughan- (Cardigan

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Delany, William

  Leng, Sir John

  Thomas, D. Alfred (Merthyr)

  Dobbie, Joseph

  Levy, Maurice

  Tomkinson, James

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Toulmin, George

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Lloyd-George, David

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Edwards, Frank

  Lough, Thomas

  Wallace, Robert

  Elibank, Master of

  Lundon, W.

  Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.)

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Emmott, Alfred

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidstone

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  M'Crae, George

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Whiteley, G. (York, W.R.)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Morley, C. (Breconshire)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Moss, Samuel

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Murphy, John

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.)

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Norman, Henry

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Hudd'd.

  Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  O'Malley, William

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Grant, Corrie

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Herbert Gladstone and Mr.

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick)

  O'Shee, James John

  William M'Arthur.

  Griffiths, Ellis J.

  Parrott, William

  Question, "That the Amendment be made," put, and agreed to.

  Clause 8.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 4, line 29, at the end, to insert the words, ' (2) If the justices of a licensing district refuse to renew an on-licence on the ground that the holder of the licence has persistently and unreasonably refused to supply suitable refreshment (other than intoxicating liquor) or on the ground that the holder of the licence has failed to fulfil any reasonable undertaking given to the justices on the grant or previous renewal
  1584
  of the licence, the justices shall be deemed to have refused the licence on the ground that the premises have been ill-conducted.'"— (Mr. Solicitor-General.)
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 4, line 40, after the word 'having,' to insert the words 'a separate commission of the peace and.'"— (Mr. Solicitor-General.)
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 5, line 2, at the end, to insert the words, 'But where quarter sessions have customarily been held separately by adjournment or otherwise for any part of a county as defined by this Act, the Secretary of State may by order, on the application of quarter sessions for the whole county, constitute for the purposes of this Act any part of the county for which quarter sessions are for the time being so separately held a separate county, and the justices usually sitting at such separate quarter sessions a separate quarter sessions, and make all necessary provisions for the administration of the Act in such a case.' (Mr. Solicitor-General.)
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 5, line 6, after the word 'accordingly,' to insert the words 'and the expression "existing on-licence" means an on-licence in force at the date of the passing of this Act, and includes a licence granted by way of renewal from time to time of a licence so in force, whether such licence continues to be held by the same person, or has been or may be transferred to any other person or persons.'"— (Mr. Solicitor-General.)
  Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 265; Noes, 175. (Division List, No. 233.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Groves, James Grimble

  Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon Sir H.

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Austin, Sir John

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy

  Davenport, W. Bromley

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Denny Colonel

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Balcarres, Lord

  Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tower Hamlets

  Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley)

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Heath, J. (Staffords., N.W.)

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A.J. (Manch'r)

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Homsey)

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Joseph C.

  Henderson, Sir A. ( Stafford, W.)

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W (Leeds

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Banbury, Sir Fred'k. George

  Doughty, Sir George

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Bartley, Sir George C. T.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Hope, J.F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Howard, John ( Kent Faversham

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Ha

  Hozier, Hn. J. Henry Cecil

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Bigwood, James

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.

  Hunt, Rowland

  Bill, Charles

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r.

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Bingham, Lord

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton

  Bond, Edward

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H.

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Fison, Frederick William

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Fitz Gerald, Sir Robert Penrose

  Kerr, John

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Keswick, William

  Bull, William James

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Butcher, John George

  Forster, Henry William

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Campbell, J.H.M. (Dublin Univ.

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks, N. R

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

  Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire

  Gardner, Ernest

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Garfit, William

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Gordon, Hn. J.E. (Elgin & Nairn

  Leveson-Gower, Fred'k. N.S.

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Gordon, Maj. Rvans-T' r H' mlets

  Lockwood, Lieut-Col. A. R.

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn J.A. (Worc.

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Chapman, Edward

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Charrington, Spencer

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Lowe, Francis William

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Greene, Sir E. W. (B'ry S. Em'nds.

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E.

  Gretton, John

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.)

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Stock, James Henry

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W.

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Stroyan, John

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Pym, C. Guy

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Randles, John S.

  Talbot, Rt. Hn J.G. (Oxf'd Univ

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Rankin, Sir James

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F.

  Rasch, Sir Frederick Carne

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H.E. (Wigt'n

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Maxwell, W.J.H. (Dumfriesshir

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Tollemache, Henry, James

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Renwick, George

  Tuff, Charles

  Milner, Rt Hn. Sir Frederick G.

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Milvain, Thomas

  Ridley, Hon. M.W. (Stalybridge

  Tully, Jasper

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

  Valentia, Viscount

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Vincent, Col Sir C.E.H. (Sheffield

  Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.)

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Walker, Col, William Hall

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Robinson, Brooke

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C.E. (Taunton

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Welby, Sir Charles G.E. (Notts.

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und Lyne

  Mount, William Arthur

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York E.R.)

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Wilson, J.W. (Worcestersh. N.)

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H. (Yorks.)

  Myers, William Henry

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Newdegate, Francis A. N.

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Wylie, Alexander

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

  Young, Samuel

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

  Younger, William

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Spear, John Ward

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

  Percy, Earl

  Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Stanley, Edward J. (Somerset)

  NOES.

  Abraham, Wm. (Rhondda)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Allen, Charles P.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Asher, Alexander

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Craig, Robert Hunter ( Lanark)

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Asquith, Rt Hn. Herbert Henry

  Cremer, William Randal

  Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Crombie, John William

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Crooks, William

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Cullinan, J.

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Grant, Corrie

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick)

  Bell, Richard

  Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Benn, John Williams

  Delany, William

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Black, Alexander William

  Dobbie, Joseph

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Boland, John

  Doogan, P. C.

  Hain, Edward

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Harcourt, Lewis V. (Rossendale

  Brigg, John

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Edwards, Frank

  Harwood, George

  Brunner, Sir J. Tomlinson

  Elibank, Master of

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Ellice, Capt, E.C (S. Andrw's Bghs

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Burns, John

  Emmott, Alfred

  Higham, John Sharpe

  Burt, Thomas

  Evans, Sir F.H. (Maidstone

  Hobhouse, C.E.H. (Bristol, E.)

  Caldwell, James

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Cameron, Robert

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Fenwick, Charles

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

  1588

  1589

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Moss, Samuel

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Joicey, Sir James

  Murphy, John

  Stanhope, Hon Philip James

  Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire

  Norman, Henry

  Stevenson, Francis, S.

  Joyce, Michael

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Sullivan, Donal

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Kemp, Lieut.-Colonel George

  O'Dowd, John

  Tennant, Harold John

  Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W.

  O'Malley, William

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Kitson, Sir James

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Lambert, George

  O'Shee, James John

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Langley, Batty

  Parrott, William

  Tomkinson, James

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  Partington, Oswald

  Toulmin, George

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Wallace, Robert

  Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington

  Perks, Robert William

  Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Leng, Sir John

  Price, Robert John

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Levy, Maurice

  Prestley, Arthur

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Rea, Russell

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Lloyd-George, David

  Reckitt, Harold James

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Lough, Thomas

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Whiteley, George (York, W.R.

  London, W.

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Rose, Charles Day

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  M'Arthur William (Cornwall)

  Russell, T. W.

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  M'Crae, George

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Hudd'd.

  M' Hugh, Patrick A.

  Schwann, Charles E.

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Shackleton, David James

  TELLERS FOE THE NOES—Mr.

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Runciman and Mr. Slack.

  Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.)

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Question, "That the Amendment be made," put, and agreed to.

  Question put, "That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 259; Noes, 164. (Division List, No. 234.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A (Worc.

  Fison, Frederick William

  Austin, Sir John

  Chapman, Edward

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Charrington, Spencer

  Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Forster, Henry William

  Balcarres, Lord

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S.W.)

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Gardner, Ernest

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Garfit, William

  Balfour, Kenneth, R. (Christch.

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Cross, Herb, Shepherd (Bolton)

  Gordon, Maj. E. (T'r Hamlets)

  Bartley, Sir George C. T.

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

  Davenport, William Bromley

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Bigwood, James

  Dewar, Sir T.R. (Tower Hamlets

  Greene, Sir E.W (B'ry S Edm'nds

  Bill, Charles

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Bingham, Lord

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph C.

  Gretton, John

  Bond, Edward

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Groves, James Grimble

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Doogan, P. C.

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Doughty, Sir George

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Bull, William James

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford)

  Burdett-Courts, W.

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Butcher, John George

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)

  Campbell, J.H.M. (Dublin Univ.

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Heath, James (Staffords., N.W.

  Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Mount, William Arthur

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Spear, John Ward

  Howard, Jn. (Kent, Faversham

  Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute)

  Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

  Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Hunt, Rowland

  Myers, William Henry

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.)

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Newdegate, Francis A. N.

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Stock, James Henry

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Nolan, Col. John. P. (Galway, N.)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Stroyan, John

  Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Kerr, John

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Keswick, William

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Percy, Earl

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks., N.R.

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Tuff, Charles

  Lee, A. H. (Hants., Farcham)

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Tully, Jasper

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Valentia, Viscount

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Vincent, Col. Sir C.E.H (Sheffield

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

  Pym, C. Guy

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.)

  Randles, John S.

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C.E (Taunton

  Lowe, Francis William

  Rankin, Sir James

  Welby, Sir Charles G.E. (Notts.

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und Lyne

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Renwick, George

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.

  Macdona, John Gumming

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Ridley, Hon. M.W. (Stalybridge

  Wilson, J.W. (Worcestersh., N.)

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

  Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H. (Yorks.)

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis ( Edinburgh, W

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Robinson, Brooke

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Wylie, Alexander

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F.

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Young, Samuel

  Maxwell, Rt. Hn Sir H.E (Wigt'n

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Younger, William

  Maxwell, W.J.H. (Dumfriessh.

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

  Mildway, Francis Bingham

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Alexander Acland-Hood and.

  Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

  Milvain, Thomas

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Brigg, John

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Allen, Charles P.

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Asher, Alexander

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Cremer, William Randal

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Crombie, John William

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Burns, John

  Crooks, William

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Burt, Thomas

  Cullinan, J.

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Caldwell, James

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Cameron, Robert

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan)

  Benn, John Williams

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Delany, William

  Black, Alexander William

  Cawley, Frederick

  Dobbie, Joseph

  Boland, John

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  1592

  1593

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Kennedy, Vincent P.(Cavan,W.

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Edwards, Frank

  Kitson, Sir James

  Rose, Charles Day

  Elibank, Master of

  Lambert, George

  Runciman, Walter

  Ellice,Capt E.C(SAndrw'sBghs

  Langley, Batty

  Russell, T. W.

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Emmott, Alfred

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Evans, Sir Francis H.(Maidstone

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Shackleton, David James

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington)

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Leng, Sir John

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Fenwick, Charles

  Levy, Maurice

  Slack, John Bamford

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Lloyd-George, David

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Lough, Thomas

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Lundon, W.

  Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

  Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Sullivan, Donal

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  M'Crae, George

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Grant, Corrie

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Tennant, Harold John

  Grey, Rt.Hn. Sir E. (Berwick)

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen,E.)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh.N.)

  Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan,E.)

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Thomas, D. Alfred (Merthyr)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Tomkinson, James

  Hain, Edward

  Moss, Samuel

  Toulmin, George

  Harcourt, Lewis V.(Rossendale)

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Murphy, John

  Walton, Jn. Lawson (Leeds,S.)

  Harwood, George

  Norman, Henry

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.)

  Wason, JohnCathcart( Orkney)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  O'Malley, William

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Higham, John Sharpe

  O'Shee, James John

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol.E.)

  Partington, Oswald

  Whiteley, George (York, W.R.)

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Price, Robert John

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Priestley, Arthur

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Rea, Russell

  Woodhouse,Sir J.T(Huddersf'd

  Joicey, Sir James

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Jones, William(Carnarvonshire

  Rickett, J. Compton

  TELERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Joyce, Michael

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Herbert Gladstone and Mr.

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  William M'Arthur.

  Clause 9:—
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 280; Noes, 118. (Division List No.235)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Charrington, Spencer

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Allhusen,Augustus HenryEden

  Bigwood, James

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Bill, Charles

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Bingham, Lord

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Asher, Alexander

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Asquith,Rt.Hn.Herbert Henry

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Craig,Charles Curtis(Antrim,S.)

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt.Hn.Sir H.

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Crombie, John William

  Austin, Sir John

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Bull, William James

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Burt, Thomas

  Davenport, William Bromley

  Balcarres, Lord

  Butcher, John George

  Davies,Sir HoratioD.(Chatham

  Balfour, Rt.Hon. A. J.(Manch'r

  Caldwell, James

  Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Campbell, J.H.M.(Dublin Univ.

  Dewar,Sir T.R.(Tower Hamlets

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Cavendish,V. C. W.(Derbyshire

  Dimsdale, Rt.Hn. Sir Joseph C.

  Bartley, Sir George C. T.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Chamberlain,Rt Hn.J.A(Worc.

  Dixon-Hartland,Sir FredDixon

  Beach,Rt.Hn.Sir Michael Hicks

  Chapman, Edward

  Doogan, P. C.

  Doughty, Sir George

  Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham)

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Ridley, Hon. M.W.(Staly bridge-

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Ridley, S.Forde(Bethnal Green.

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Leng, Sir John

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Dyke, Rt. Hon.SirWilliamHart

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Lookwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Robinson, Brooke

  Elibank, Master of

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Long, Col.CharlesW.(Evesham)

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Evans, SirFraneis H.(Maidstone

  Long, Rt.Hn.Walter(Bristol,S.)

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants.,W.)

  Lough, Thomas

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Lowe, Francis William

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Russell, T. W.

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Fison, Frederick William

  Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  Forster, Henry William

  M'Iver,Sir Lewis(Edinburgh,W

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S.W.)

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Galloway, William Johnson

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Gardner, Ernest

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Garfit, William

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Smith, Abel H.(Hertford,East)

  Gladstone, Rt.Hn. Herbert John

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.)

  Gordon, Hn.J.E.(Elgin&Nairn)

  Maxwell.RtHn.Sir H.E(Wigt'n

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Gordon, Maj. E. (T'r Hamlets)

  Maxwell, W.J.H.(Dumfriessh.)

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Spear, John Ward

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Milner, Rt.Hn. Sir Frederick G.

  Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Milvain, Thomas

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur(Ormskirk)

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Mitohell, Edw. (Fermanagh,N.)

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord(Lancs.)

  Greene, SirE.W(B'rySEdm'nds

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Stock, James Henry

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Gretton, John

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Stroyan, John

  Gropes, James Grimble

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Tennant, Harold John

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Mount, William Arthur

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford)

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute)

  Tuff, Charles

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Harwood, George

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Tully, Jasper

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Myers, William Henry

  Valentia, Viscount

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Newdegate, Francis A. N.

  Vincent.Col.Sir C.E.H(Sheffield

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley

  Nolan, Col.John P.(Galway,N.)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Heath, James (Staffords., N.W.

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Heaton, John Henniker

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.)

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Wason, JohnCathcartf (Orkney)

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington

  Welby, Lt.-Col.A.C.E(Taunton

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Welby, Sir Charles G.E.(Notts.

  Hope, J.F.(Sheffield,Brightside

  Peel, Hn.Wm. RobertWellesley

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Percy, Earl

  Whiteley, H.(Ashton und.Lyne

  Howard, Jn.(Kent, Faversham

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Wilson, A.Stanley(York, E.R.)

  Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Wilson, J.W.(Worcestersh.,N.)

  Hunt, Rowland

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Wilson-Todd,SirW.H. (Yorks.)

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Price, Robert John

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Kennaway, Rt.Hn.Sir John H.

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Wylie, Alexander

  Kennedy, VincentP.(Cavan,W.

  Pym, C. Guy

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T.(Denbigh)

  Randies, John S.

  Young, Samuel

  Kerr, John

  Rankin, Sir James

  Younger, William

  Keswick, William

  Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

  Lawson, J. Grant( Yorks., N.R.

  Renwick, George

  1596

  1597

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Partington, Oswald

  Allen, Charles P.

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Hain, Edward

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Harcourt, Lewis V.(Rossendale

  Priestley, Arthur

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Rea, Russell

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Higham, John Sharpe

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Benn, John Williams

  Hobhouse, C.E.H (Bristol, E.)

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Black, Alexander William

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Rose, Charles Day

  Boland, John

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Runciman, Walter

  Brigg, John

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Joicey, Sir James

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Jones, William(Carnarvonshire

  Shackleton, David James

  Burns, John

  Joyce, Michael

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Cameron, Robert

  Kitson, Sir James

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Lambert, George

  Slack, John Bamford

  Cawley, Frederick

  Langley, Batty

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal,W.)

  Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Craig, Robert Hunter(Lanark)

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Sullivan, Donal

  Cremer, William Randal

  Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Crooks, William

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen.E.)

  Cullinan, J.

  Levy, Maurice

  Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.)

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Thomas, D. Alfred (Merthyr)

  Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan)

  Lundon, W.

  Tomkinson, James

  Delany, William

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Toulmin, George

  Dobbie, Joseph

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Edwards, Frank

  M'Crae, George

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Ellice,Capt E.C(SAndrw'sBghs

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Emmott, Alfred

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Moss, Samuel

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Murphy, John

  Woodhouse,Sir J.T(Huddersf'd

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co,)

  Norman, Henry

  Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.)

  M'Kenna and Mr. Herbert

  Grant, Corrie

  O'Malley, William

  Roberts.

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E.(Berwick)

  O'Shee, James John

  Question put, "That the clause stand part of the Bill."
  Schedle:—
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 6, line 24, at end, to add the words' and in the case of any licensed premises which are certified by the justices of the licensing district on the application of the holder of the licence to be used only as public gardens, picture galleries, exhibitions, places of public or private entertainment, railway refreshment rooms, bonâ fide restaurants or eating houses, or for any other purposes to which the holding of any other purposes to which the holding of a licence is merely auxiliary, such rate, not less than one-third of
  that charged in other cases, as the justices think proper under the circumstances.'"—(Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.)
  Question put, "That this schedule, as amended, be the first schedule of the Bill"
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 233; Noes, 142. (Division List, No.236)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Balcarres, Lord

  Bigwood, James

  Allhusen,Augustus HenryEden

  Balfour, Rt.Hon. A.J.(Manch'r

  Bill, Charles

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Bingham, Lord

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt.Hn.Sir H.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Austin, Sir John

  Bartley, Sir George C. T.

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Butcher, John George

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Campbell, J.H.M.(Dublin Univ.

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hunt, Rowland

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Chamberlain.RtHn.J.A (Wore.

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Pym, C. Guy

  Chapman, Edward

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Randles, John S.

  Charrington, Spencer

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn.Sir John H.

  Rankin, Sir James

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Kerr, John

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Keswick, William

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks., N.R.

  Ridley, Hon. M.W.(Stalybridge

  Craig, Charles Curtis(AntrimS.)

  Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham)

  Ridley, S.Forde(Bethnal Green

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Robinson, Brooke

  Davenport, William Bromley

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Rolleston, Sir John F, L.

  Davies, SirHoratioD.(Chatham

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Long, Rt.Hn.Walter(Bristol,S.)

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Lowe, Francis William

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Dimsdale, Rt.Hn. Sir Joseph C.

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Dixon-Hartland,Sir FredDixon

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Doogan, P. C.

  Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Doughty, Sir George

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Macdona, John dimming

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  Dyke, Rt.Hn.Sir William Hart

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Sharpe, William Edward T,

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  M'Iver,Sir Lewis(Edinburgh,W

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Smith, Abel H.(Hertford,East)

  Fison, Frederick William

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.)

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Spear, John Ward

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Maxwell,RtHn.SirH.E.(Wigt'n

  Stanley,Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk)

  Forster, Henry William

  Maxwell, W.J.H. (Dumfriessh.)

  Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset

  Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S.W.)

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Stanley, Rt. Hon.Lord(Lancs.)

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Milner, Rt.Hn. Sir Frederick G.

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Gardner Ernest

  Milvain, Thomas

  Stock, James Henry

  Garfit, William

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Stroyan, John

  Gordon,Hn. J.E.(Elgin&Nairn)

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Gordon,Maj. Evans-T'rHamlets

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Gore, Hon. S.F.Ormsby

  Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Tuff, Charles

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Greene,Sir E.W(B'rySEdm'nds

  Mount, William Arthur

  Tully, Jasper

  Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury)

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Valentia, Viscount

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Gretton, John

  Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute)

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Groves, James Grimble

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Welby,Lt.-Col.A.C.E.(Taunton

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Myers, William Henry

  Welby, Sir Charles G.E.(Notts.)

  Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford)

  Newdegate, Francis A. N.

  Whiteley, H.(Ashton und.Lyne

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th

  Nolan, Col.John P.(Galway,N.)

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H.(Yorks.)

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Wylie, Alexander

  Heath, James (Staffords., N.W.

  Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Peel, Hn.Wm.RobertWellesley

  Young, Samuel

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Percy, Earl

  Younger, William

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

  Hope, J.F.(Sheffield,Brightside

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Howard, Jn.(Kent, Faversham

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

  Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Allen, Charles P.

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Asher, Alexander

  Asquith,Rt.Hn,Herbert Henry

  1600

  1601

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Hain, Edward

  Priestley, Arthur

  Benn, John Williams

  Harcourt, Lewis V.(Rossendale

  Rea, Russell

  Black, Alexander William

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Boland, John

  Harwood, George

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Brigg, John

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Rose, Charles Day

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Runciman, Walter

  Burns, John

  Higham, John Sharpe

  Russell, T. W.

  Caldwell, James

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol,E.)

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Cameron, Robert

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Shackleton, David James

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Joicey, Sir James

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Jones, William( Carnarvonshire

  Slack, John Bamford

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Joyce, Michael

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Cremer, William Randal

  Kennedy,Vincent P.(Cavan,W.

  Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

  Crombie, John William

  Kitson, Sir James

  Sullivan, Donal

  Crooks, William

  Lambert, George

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Cullinan, J.

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal,W.)

  Tennant, Harold John

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen,E.)

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan,E.)

  Delany, William

  Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington)

  Thomas, D. Alfred (Merthyr)

  Dobbie, Joseph

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Tomkinson, James

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Leng, Sir John

  Toulmin, George

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Levy, Maurice

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Edwards, Frank

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Elibank, Master of

  Lough, Thomas

  Wason,John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Ellice,CaptE.C.(SAndrw'sBghs

  Lundon, W.

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Emmott, Alfred

  M'Crae, George

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Evans, Sir Fran. H. (Maidstone

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh.N.)

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Wilson, John (Falkirk).

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Moss, Samuel

  Wilson, J.W.(Worcestersh.,N.)

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Woodhouse.Sir J.T(Huddersf' d

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Murphy, John

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.

  O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.)

  Herbert Gladstone and Mr.

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  O'Malley, William

  William M'Arthur.

  Grant, Corrie

  O'Shee, James John

  Grey, Rt.Hn. Sir E. (Berwick)

  Partington, Oswald

  Question, "That this schedule be added to the Bill," put, and agreed to.

  New Schedule (Scale of Deductions):— (Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.)
  Motion made, and Question put, "That the Chairman do report the Bill, as amended, to the House."
  The Committee divided:— Ayes, 211; Noes, 117 (Division List No.237.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds

  Campbell, J.H.M.(Dublin Univ.

  Allbusen,Augustus Henry Eden

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Bartley, Sir George C. T.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.J.A (Wore.

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt.Hn.Sir H.

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Chapman, Edward

  Austin, Sir John

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Charrington, Spencer

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Bigwood, James

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Bingham, Lord

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Balcarres, Lord

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Balfour, Rt.Hon. A.J.(Manch'r

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Butcher, John George

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Kenyon, Hn. Geo T.(Denbigh)

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Craig,Charles Curtis (Antrim,S.)

  Kerr, John

  Rankin, Sir James

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Boltou)

  Keswick, William

  Randles, John S.

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Davenport, William Bromley

  Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks., N.R.

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Davies, SirHoratioD.(Chatham

  Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Ridley, Hon. M.W.(Stalybridge

  Dimsdale, Rt.Hn. Sir Joseph C.

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Dixon-Hartland,Sir FredDixon

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Doogan, P. C.

  Long, Col.CharlesW.(Evesham)

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Doughty, Sir George

  Long, Rt.Hn. Walter(Bristol,S.)

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Lowe, Francis William

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants.,W.)

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Fison, Frederick William

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  Fitzroy,Hon. Edward Algernon

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Forster, Henry William

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S.W.)

  M'Iver,Sir Lewis(Edinburgh.W

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Calloway, William Johnson

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Smith, Abel H.(Hertford,East)

  Gardner, Ernest

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Garfit, William

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Spear, John Ward

  Gordon, Hn.J.E.(Elgin&Nairn)

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

  Gordon,Maj.Evans(T'rHamlets

  Maxwell,RtHn. SirH. E. (Wigt'n

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur(Ormskirk)

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby

  Maxwell, W. J.H.(Dumfriessh.)

  Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord(Lancs.)

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Milner, Rt.Hon.Sir FrederickG.

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Milvain, Thomas

  Stock, James Henry

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Stroyan, John

  Greene,SirE. W. (B'rySEdm'nds

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury)

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Gretton, John

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Groves, James Grimble

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Tuff, Charles

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Mount, William Arthur

  Tully, Jasper

  Harris, F. Leverton(Tynem'th)

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Valentia, Viscount

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute)

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Welby, Sir Charles G.E.(Notts.

  Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley

  Myers, William Henry

  Whiteley, H.(Ashton und.Lyne

  Heath, James (Staffords., N.W.

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Nolan, Col.John P.(Galway,N.)

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Hogg, Lindsay

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield,Britside

  Pease,Herbert Pike(Darlington

  Young, Samuel

  Howard, Jn.(Kent, Faversham

  Percy, Earl

  Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

  Pierpoint, Robert

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

  Hunt, Rowland

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Kennaway, Rt.Hn.Sir John H.

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Cremer, William Randal

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Brigg, John

  Cullinan, J.

  Allen, Charles P.

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Asher, Alexander

  Burns, John

  Delany, William

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Caldwell, James

  Dobbie, Joseph

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Benn, John Williams

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Edwards, Frask

  Black, Alexander William

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Elibank, Master of

  Boland, John

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

  Ellice,Capt.E. C(SAndrw'sBghs

  1604

  1605

  Evans, Sir Fran. H.(Maidstone)

  Leng, Sir John

  Shackleton, David James

  Evans, Samuel T.(Glamorgan)

  Levy, Maurice

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Lewis, John Herbet

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Lough, Thomas

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Fenwick, Charles

  Lundon, W.

  Slack, John Bamford

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  M'Crae, George

  Sullivan, Donal

  Gladstone,Rt.Hn.Herbet John

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Mitchell, Edw.(Fermanagh,N.)

  Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan,E.)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Morgan,J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Thomas, D. Alfred (Merthyr)

  Hain, Edward

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Tomkinson, James

  Harcourt, Lewis V.(Rossendale

  Moss, Samuel

  Joulmin, George

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Murphy, John

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Harwood, George

  Norman, Henry

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Wason,John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Higham, John Sharpe

  O'Malley, William

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Horniman, Frederick John

  O'Shee, James John

  Whitely, J. H. (Halifax)

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Partington, Oswald

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Joicey, Sir James

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Priestley, Arthur

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Joyce, Michael

  Rea, Russell

  Wilson, J.W.(Worcestersh.,N.)

  Kennedy, Vincent P.(Cavan,W.

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Woodhouse,Sir J.T(Huddersf'd

  Kitson, Sir James

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Lambert, George

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Law, Hung Alex. (Donegal, W.

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  John Ellis and Mr. Corrie

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Runciman, Walter

  Grant.

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Russell, T. W.

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Samuel, Sir HarryS.(Limehouse

  Bill reported; as amended, to be considered upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 271.]
  And, it being One of the clock, Mr. Speaker adjourned the Houses, pursuant to the Standing Order, without Question put.
  Adjourned at One o'clock.