§ Considered in Committee
§ (In the Committee.)
§ [Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]
§ Clause 1:—
§ MR. DUKE,continuing his speech, contended that if the Bill were examined it would be seen that it was impossible that it could have ever been intended that it was to be administered on judicial principles; there was no con test, and the whole matter was one of administration. There could be no judicial decisions, no parties and no dispute which required a tribunal or procedure to deal with them on judicial lines. He asked the Government to consider whether there were not some means by which they could define the powers which the justices were to exercise. If some were to be judicial let them be selected and declared to be powers to be administered judicially. But having regard to the fact that the major part of these powers were purely administrative powers, he asked the Government to make the matter clear in the Act. If they did not make it clear that the whole of the 871 powers were administrative and were to be exercised with the freedom with which administrative powers were exercised by administrative bodies in this country, at any rate let them declare what the judicial powers were and leave the local authority free to administer the administrative powers. He begged to move.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 1, line 9, after the word 'sessions,' to insert the words 'acting as an administrative body.'"—(Mr. Duke.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
§ SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid so far as he could see this discussion was purely of an academic nature. There was no doubt that many of the duties to be performed were purely of an administrative character. It could be gathered from the Bill, without setting out the fact, that quarter sessions was acting as an administrative body. His hon. and learned friend was correct in saying that many of the duties of quarter sessions under this Bill would be administrative. Licensing and setting up the compensation fund were purely matters of administration, but there were other duties cast on quarter sessions by this Bill which could not be described as other than judicial. In all cases of appeal from the licensing justices and in all matters specified in the first sub-section they would act judicially. A licence-holder who was refused a renewal might appeal to quarter sessions, and there again they would have to act in a judicial capacity. The licensing authorities might report that there were too many licensed houses in the district, and in that case a licence-holder whose licence was to be extinguished had a right to appeal to quarter sessions and say, "It is quite true that you say my licence ought to be taken away but I dispute that." Such a thing as that would constitute the very case which his hon. and learned friend said would necessitate a judicial decision, inasmuch as there would be a dispute between the parties. Quarter sessions were also entitled to hear other parties interested, which would include the justices who made the order. To draw a distinction between one set of cases in which they would be acting in a judicial 872 capacity and another set of cases equally important, as leading to the same result, and to lay it down that in the latter they must act in a purely administrative character, would be a monstrous thing to do.
§ MR. DUKEasked the Solicitor-General would the quarter sessions administer the principles of law or doctrines of equity?
§ SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid they would administer both. The insertion of the words "acting as an administrative body" would leave it open to quarter sessions to say in regard to particular matters that although they had litigants and advocates before them and had to hear evidence, they, nevertheless, were not acting in a judicial capacity. The important thing was to know what duties were imposed, their nature, and how they were to be carried out. There would be no difficulty in determining, where necessary, when quarter sessions were acting judicially and when administratively.
§ SIR ALBERT ROLLIT (Islington, S.)noted the statements of the Solicitor-General that in accordance with the Act of 1902 the justices would still be heard upon these applications, and that in dealing with the personal and public rights involved there would be an opportunity for legal assistance, if necessary, in determining what were essentially judicial questions. He could not, however, follow the right hon. and learned Gentleman in his distinction between the administrative and judicial functions of quarter sessions. The appointment of the compensation fund provided not by the State or the public, but by the whole body of licence-holders themselves, the want of which had been one great obstacle to temperance reform, and the cessation of which, under a time limit, would, he felt as a magistrate, be a new and even greater impediment to such reform, which he heartily favoured, but for which personally he relied more upon education than upon legislation—was administrative; but the private question whether a licensee should or should not have his licence renewed, and the important public question whether the licence should or should not be renewed in the public interest owing to an excess of 873 licensed houses in the district, was as clearly a matter of justice and to be judicially determined by the magistrates, who had always been bound, in law, not to act merely arbitrarily, but to exercise a real judicial discretion. The insertion of the words now proposed would be restrictive of the operation of the Bill. Two great questions would have to be dealt with judicially—first: Whether a licensee ought to be deprived of his licence on public grounds; and, secondly: Whether a particular house was required or not. In the former a private, and in the latter a public interest was concerned. The calculation of the compensation might be an administrative act, but it was merely a corollary of what quarter sessions must have previously determined judicially, viz., whether or not a licence should be renewed. The determination on the report of the local justices would frequently involve very important judicial considerations. As to the Bill derogating from the power of the local justices, he believed that a formal reasoned report, which would always be before quarter sessions, would have more influence and be more difficult to displace, because the onus of displacing it would be cast upon the virtual appellant. There ought to be in the future as there had teen in the pasta judicial determination of questions which were still really to be the subject of an automatic appeal. He hoped, therefore, the Bill would not be restricted by the insertion of the Amendment, which would restrict the duty owed towards both the publican and the public, each of whom were entitled to justice, and he noted from the speech of the Solicitor-General that the practice before the magistrates at brewster sessions would be maintained intact, and also that the parties interested and the local justices would still be entitled to legal assistance on such judicial points at quarter sessions, while in the county boroughs the abolition of any appeal to the quarter sessions for the county was an unquestionable concession to a long-standing grievance. Compensation, the fund for which might well have been made more adequate, and in which alone, and not in the licence, any vested interest was created, was the corollary of the refusal to renew, was thus administrative, but there was a 874 previous question to be determined, renewal or non-renewal, and this was a judicial one from both points of view. But, it was contended, that the new practice would derogate from the powers and influence of the local justices. As to this, and as both a county and a borough magistrate, and a former legal practitioner in licensing cases on each side as to renewal or non-renewal and as to new licences, he respectfully but strongly differed. For, under the existing practice, the right of appeal from brewster to quarter sessions against non-renewal on; the ground of excession of number of houses was absolute and practically always exercised. And the change proposed to be made in the case of such non-renewals was really an automatic appeal. With this difference, that the local justices, who, it had been legally decided, should not be represented on the appeal except under special circumstances, who were sometimes represented and sometimes not, and who, it was understood, would still retain any right to appear, and under the Act of 1902 would also be empowered to make a written and reasoned report to quarter sessions in every case of non-renewal on public grounds of excess of number of houses; and, whether the justices were represented or not, this report would always be read and largely referred to. Now, as a magistrate, he felt that such a report from a competent Court would receive more respect than any mere ex parte advocacy, inasmuch as it would be founded on local knowledge and experience, while it would be adjudicated upon by an independent judicial tribunal. It would, of course, be treated, as all such Court reports were by appeal tribunals, with respect, while it would have the effect, which advocacy on a rehearing never could have, of casting the onus of displacing it upon the party who impeached it, a legal consideration the importance of which any magistrate or practitioner would appreciate. And this was clearly not an administrative matter, but one which he himself and other magistrates, would always seek to determine as a judicial; question and by the exercise of an impartial discretion, after hearing the justices' report, and that the parties, including the local magistrates, had to 875 say upon it; and surely this was no reduction of such magistrates' powers, but, so far as it was more than an automatic equivalent of the existing absolute right of appeal to quarter sessions, rather an increase of power than otherwise. But all this was essentially judicial, not merely administrative, and such being the case he must oppose the Amendment of his hon. friend.
§ SIR JAMES WOODHOUSEsupported the Amendment, which he submitted clearly declared the law as laid down by the highest tribunals in the land—viz., that the determination of the question of the renewal of a licence, on the ground of non-requirement, was an administrative and not a judicial act. The only reason which had been avowed for vesting this duty in quarter sessions was that they were to dispense the compensation fund, but as an administrative and not as a judicial duty, so that no ground had been alleged for turning the tribunal of quarter sessions from an administrative into a judicial body in that sense. The report was to be sent from the licensing justices to the quarter sessions, not as a Court of Appeal, but as an authority who were to deal with it as an originating and determining body; and he submitted that there was a broad distinction between quarter sessions hearing an appeal, and determining a matter as an originating body with sole power to decide. The moment the question was considered in connection with a county borough the absurdity of the position became apparent. In county boroughs the whole body of justices,
§ having no power to determine the matter themselves, would send it to a committee of their own members to decide finally, so that, according to the Solicitor-General, the whole body would be an administrative body, while the committee of the larger body would be a judicial body. Anybody who had had experience of the working of the licensing law would be compelled to agree with the hon. and learned Member for Plymouth.
§ MR. H. C. RICHARDS (Finsbury, E.)agreed that there were times when quarter sessions had to act in an administrative capacity, but he thought the case which had been put forward demonstrated that when it was a question of dealing with the report of a committee, consisting practically of a minority of the magistrates of a county borough, they were bound to act in a judicial capacity. The hon. and learned Member for Plymouth had at any rate made out a case for a clear definition, although possibly the present was not the occasion upon which the Solicitor-General would prefer to give it. Quarter sessions had to determine the number of licences to be sacrificed, and they could not be said to be acting in a strictly judicial capacity until they had actually singled out the individual victims, and then every person interested ought, to be heard.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 132; Noes, 124. (Division List No. 207.)
879| AYES. | ||
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) |
| Barlow, John Emmott | Corbett. T. L. (Down, North) | Eve, Harry Trelawney |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark) | Fenwick, Charles |
| Bell, Richard | Cremer, William Randal | Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) |
| Benn, John Williams | Crombie, John William | Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) |
| Black, Alexander William | Crooks. William | Fuller, J. M. F. |
| Boland, John | Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Grant, Corrie |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Cullinan, J. | Griffith, Ellis J. |
| Brigg, John | Dalziel, James Henry | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Harwood, George |
| Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Davies. M. Vaughan- (Cardigan | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Delany, William | Higham, John Sharpe |
| Burns, John | Dobbie, Joseph | Holland, Sir William Henry |
| Burt, Thomas | Doogan, P. C. | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) |
| Caldwell, James | Douglas. Charles M. (Lanark) | Horniman, Frederick John |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Dunn, Sir William | Johnson, John (Gateshead) |
| Cawley, Frederick | Edwards, Frank | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Ellice, Capt. E C(S. Andrw's Bghs | Jordan, Jeremiah |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) | Joyce, Michael |
| Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W. | O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid. | Sullivan, Donal |
| Kilbride, Denis | O'Doherty, William | Taylor, Theodore C. (Ridcliffe) |
| Kitson, Sir James | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | Tennant, Harold John |
| Lambert, George | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Langley, Batty | Parrott, William | Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr) |
| Laurie, Lieut.-General | Philipps, John Wynford | Thomas, J. A. (Glamorgan, Gowe) |
| Lawson, Sir Wilfrid Cornwall) | Power, Patrick Joseph | Tomkinson, James |
| Leese Sir Joseph F. (Accrington | Reckitt, Harold James | Toulmin, George |
| Leigh, Sir Joseph | Reddy, M. | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Leng, Sir John | Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries) | Wallace, Robert |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) | Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.) |
| Lloyd-George, David | Roberts, John N. (Denbighs.) | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) |
| Lundon, W. | Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Lyell, Charles Henry | Roche, John | White, Luke (York, E.R.) |
| MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Runciman, Walter | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Russell, T. W. | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| M'Crae, George | Schwann, Charles E. | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.) |
| M'Kenna, Reginald | Shackleton, David James | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Mansfield, Horace Kendall | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) | Wood, James |
| Markham, Arthur Basil | Sheehy, David | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Shipman, Dr. John G. | |
| Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | Slack, John Bamford | TELLERS FOE THE AYES— |
| Morpeth, Viscount | Sloan, Thomas Henry | Mr. Duke and Sir James |
| Moss, Samuel | Smith, Samuel (Flint) | Woodhouse. |
| Newnes, Sir George | Soames, Arthur Wellesley | |
| Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Crean, Eugene | Helder, Augustus |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) | Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile | Hickman, Sir Alfred |
| Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O. | Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Hoare, Sir Samuel |
| Arrol, Sir William | Dalkeith, Earl of | Hogg, Lindsay |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Hope J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside |
| Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. | Davenport, William Bromley- | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry |
| Austin, Sir John | Davies Sir Horatio D. (Chatham | Houston, Robert Paterson |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Dickinson, Robert Edmond | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouss |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Dickson, Charles Scott | Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Doughty, George | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers | Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop. |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r | Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Kerr, John |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W (Leeds | Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart | King, Sir Henry Seymour |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton | Knowles, Sir Lees |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Law, Andrew Bonar(Glasgow) |
| Bignold, Arthur | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) |
| Bigwood, James | Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas | Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N.R |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Fison, Frederick William | Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham |
| Bond, Edward | Flower, Sir Ernest | Llewellyn, Evan Henry |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Forster, Henry William | Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. |
| Bousfield, William Robert | Galloway, William Johnson | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Gardner, Ernest | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) |
| Brotherton, Edward Allen | Gordon, Hn. J.E. (Elgin & Nairn) | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S) |
| Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh.) | Gore, Hn. S. F. Ormsby- (Line.) | Lowe, Francis William |
| Bull, William James | Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Loyd, Archie Kirkman |
| Butcher, John George | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) | MacIver, David (Liverpool) |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.) | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire | Gretton, John | M'Fadden, Edward |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Greville, Hon. Ronald | M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh, W. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn J.A. (Wore. | Groves, James Grimble | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) |
| Chapman, Edward | Hall, Edward Marshall | Majendie, James A. H. |
| Charrington, Spencer | Hambro, Charles Eric | Martin, Richard Biddulph |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Hamilton, Marq. Of (L'nd'nderry | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. |
| Coates, Edward Feetham | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H.E (Wigt'n |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos, H. A. E. | Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th) | Maxwell, W.J.H. (Dumfriessh.) |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich) | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. | Milvain, Thomas |
| Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley | Molesworth, Sir Lewis |
| Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Reid, James (Greenock) | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow | Remnant, James Farquharson | Talbot, Lord. E. (Chichester) |
| Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | Renwick, George, | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) |
| Mount, William Arthur | Richards, Henry Charles | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Murray, Rt. Hn A. Graham (Bute | Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green) | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) | Tuff, Charles |
| Myers, William Henry | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. | Valentia, Viscount |
| Nannetti, Joseph P. | Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye | Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H. (Sheffield |
| Nicholson, William Graham | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.) | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) | Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- |
| Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) | Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne |
| O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| O'Dowd, John | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.) |
| Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | Samuel, Sir Harry S. (Limehouse | Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H. (Yorks.) |
| Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Pemberton, John S. G. | Sharpe, William Edward T. | Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson |
| Percy, Earl | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel | Wrightson, Sir Thomas |
| Pierpoint, Robert | Smith H.C (North'mb. Tyneside | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Plummer, Walter R. | Spear, John Ward | Young, Samuel |
| Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset) | Younger, William |
| Pretyman, Ernest George | Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lancs.) | |
| Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | Stock, James Henry | TELLERS FOE THE NOES— |
| Pym, C. Guy | Stone, Sir Benjamin | Sir Alexander Acland-Hood |
| Ratcliff, R, F. | Stroyan, John | and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes. |
§ MR. ELLIS GRIFFITHmoved to leave out the words "instead of" and insert "sitting with." According to the Bill the justices of the licensing district would have the position of a committee against whom there would be an appeal to quarter sessions. It might happen that the licensing justices declared by a large majority against a renewal, and their decision might be reversed by quarter sessions by a bare majority, and his object in providing that licensing justices should sit with quarter sessions upon the hearing of the appeal, was that the authorities having local knowledge should also have a voice in determining the question. He trusted that the Solicitor-General would, at any rate, be able to accept the substance of his Amendment.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 1, line 9, to lea e out the words 'instead of.' and insert the words 'sitting with.'"—(Mr. Ellis Griffith.)
§ Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
§ SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid he could not accept the Amendment; it would be absolutely impossible that the justices of
§ every licensing district should sit at quarter sessions. Licensing justices would, in fact, have great influence, for they would have the initiating power to bring about the withdrawal of a licence and quarter sessions would not. That a decision by quarter sessions might be given by a small majority was true, and the same thing happened in the High Court; he had recent experience of a decision being upset in the House of Lords by a majority of one. That had to be accepted and an exception could not be made in a case of this kind. The hon. and learned Member said that the licensing justices would have no voice in the matter; but he wished to point out that they would have a great voice because quarter sessions would have no initiative, and the licensing justices would have to select those licences which they thought ought not to be renewed. Therefore it was not quite accurate to say that they had no voice, and his hon. and learned friend would therefore see that the matter was not really so bad as he had made out.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 210; Noes, 128. (Division List No. 208.)
883| AYES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Atkinson, Rt. Hoc. John | Bain, Colonel James Robert |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. | Baird, John George Alexander |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Austin, Sir John | Balcarres, Lord |
| Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O. | Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitsRoy | Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J. (Manch'r |
| Arrol, Sir William | Bailey, James (Walworth) | Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Groves, James Grimble | Nicholson, William Graham |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Hall, Edward Marshall | Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.) |
| Bignold, Arthur | Hambro, Charles Eric | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) |
| Bigwood, James | Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nderry | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Bill, Charles | Hare, Thomas Leigh | O'Dowd, John |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th) | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| Bond, Edward | Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich) | Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith | Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. | Pemberton, John S. G. |
| Boushfield, William Robert | Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley | Percy, Earl |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Helder, Augustus | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Brotherton, Edward Allen | Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. | Plummer, Walter R. |
| Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh.) | Hickman, Sir Alfred | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Bull, William James | Hoare, Sir Samuel | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Hobhouse, Rt Hn H (Somers't, E | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Butcher, John George | Hogg, Lindsay | Pym, C. Guy |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Hope, J.F. (Sheffield, Brightside | Ratcliff, R. F. |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire | Houston, Robert Paterson | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Jameson, Major J. Eustace | Renwick, George |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Richards, Henry Charles |
| Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J.A (Worc. | Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred. | Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green |
| Chapman, Edward | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Charrington, Spencer | Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh) | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop. | Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye |
| Coates, Edward Feetham | Kerr, John | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | King, Sir Henry Seymour | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Knowles, Sir Lees | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Win. | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford |
| Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Laurie, Lieut.-General | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Crean, Eugene | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Samuel, Sir Harry S. (Limehouse |
| Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile | Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks., N.R. | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham) | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Smith, H C (North'mb. Tyneside |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. | Spear, John Ward |
| Davenport, William Bromley | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset |
| Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.) |
| Dickinson, Robert Edmond | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Lowe, Francis William | Stock, James Henry |
| Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Doughty, George | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Stroyan, John |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers | MacIver, David (Liverpool) | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Maconochie, A. W. | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Duke, Henry Edward | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | M'Fadden, Edward | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart | M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh, W | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Tuff, Charles |
| Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Majendie, James A. H. | Valentia, Viscount |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Martin, Richard Biddulph | Vincent, Col. Sir C.E.H (Sheffield |
| Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Fison, Frederick William | Maxwell, Rt Hn. Sir H.E (Wigt'n | Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- |
| FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose | Maxwell, W.J.H. (Dumfriessh. | Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne |
| Flower, Sir Ernest | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
| Forster, Henry William | Milvain, Thomas | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Calloway, William Johnson | Molesworth, Sir Lewis | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R. |
| Gardner, Ernest | Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.) | Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H. (Yorks.) |
| Gordon, Hn. J.E. (Elgin & Nairn) | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Gore, Hon. S.F. Ormsby-(Linc.) | Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) | Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson |
| Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | Morpeth, Viscount | Wrightson, Sir Thomas |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Morrell, George Herbert | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Graham, Henry Robert | Morrison, James Archibald | Young, Samuel |
| Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | Younger, William |
| Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) | Mount, William Arthur | |
| Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.) | Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute) | TELLERS FOE THE AYES—Sir |
| Gretton, John | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Alexander Acland-Hood and |
| Greville, Hon. Ronald | Myers, William Henry | Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes. |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) | Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Boland, John |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Bell, Richard | Bolton, Thomas Dolling |
| Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry | Benn, John Williams | Brigg, John |
| Barlow, John Emmott | Black, Alexander William | Broadhurst, Henry |
| Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Higham, John Sharpe | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Burke, E. Haviland | Holland, Sir William Henry | Roche, John |
| Burns, John | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | Rose, Charles Day |
| Burt, Thomas | Horniman, Frederick John | Runciman, Walter |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Russell, T. W. |
| Caldwell, James | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Jordan, Jeremiah | Schwann, Charles E. |
| Cawley, Frederick | Joyce, Michael | Shackleton, David James |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Kitson, Sir James | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Lambert, George | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Langley, Batty | Slack, John Bamford |
| Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark) | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Cremer, William Randal | Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington) | Smith, Samuel (Flint) |
| Crombie, John William | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Sullivan, Donal |
| Crooks, William | Leng, Sir John | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Lewis, John Herbert | Tennant, Harold John |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Lloyd-George, David | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Lundon, W. | Thomas, D. Alfred (Merthyr) |
| Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan | Lyell, Charles Henry- | Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower |
| Delany, William | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Tomkinson, James |
| Dobbie, Joseph | M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | Toulmin, George |
| Donelan, Captain A. | M'Crae, George | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Doogan, P. C. | M'Kenna, Reginald | Wallace, Robert |
| Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Walton, Jn. Lawson (Leeds, S.) |
| Dunn, Sir William | Markham, Arthur Basil | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan |
| Ellice, Capt E.C (S Andrw's Bghs | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) | Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | Moss, Samuel | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Eve, Harry Trelawney | Newnes, Sir George | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Fenwick, Charles | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.) | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | O'Doherty, William | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | Wood, James |
| Fuller, J. M. F. | O'Malley, William | Woodhouse, Sir J.T (Huddersf'd |
| Furness, Sir Christopher | Parrott, William | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John | Philipps, John Wynford | |
| Grant, Corrie | Power, Patrick Joseph | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Reckitt, Harold James | Ellis Griffith and Mr. Ed- |
| Harwood, George | Reddy, M. | wards. |
§ MR. MUNRO FERGUSONmoved to leave out the word "but" in line 10, and to insert the word "and" with the object of ensuring that there should be a sufficient reduction of licences under the Bill and also to ensure that the public, to some extent, would get value for the rights which, in the opinion of many, they were called upon to relinquish under the Bill. The Solicitor-General informed the Committee yesterday that some of the Amendments were being moved in a perfunctory manner without sufficient reasons being given in their support. He was afraid that he would now be open to the same charge, because the point raised by the Amendment was a very large one. The reproach did not come very well from those who had taken steps to secure that it would be impossible to reason on many of the greater issues raised by this Bill. If time permitted, he believed a strong 884 case could be made out for the Amendment he now proposed. In introducing the Bill, the Home Secretary said its object was the reduction of licences. The right hon. Gentleman said that was a good thing. Well, if this reduction was so necessary, why was it not to be compulsory? The impression of the Prime Minister was that the justices had been consumed with a desire to reduce licences unnecessarily throughout the country. His own experience was very different. He believed that the desire for conferring licences was, in many instances, a great deal keener than the desire to restrict them. The licensing authorities which had been least inclined to reduce licences had been quarter sessions. They might take as an example a division of the county to which he belonged. In the Island of Lewis the local justices had over and over again refused to renew licences, and the licences had always been restored 885 by quarter sessions. He saw little security under this Bill of any large, general, or sufficient reduction of licences. Indeed, it offered obstacles to the reduction of licences, because many licences, which had no value at present, would be given a value, and the valuation scheme, by which it was proposed to make the value of licences as they stood at the passing of the Bill the basis of compensation, was, in his opinion, largely delusive. It would be found that they were raising, under this Bill, many financial obstacles to the reduction of licences. To make the reduction effective, he submitted that it should be compulsory. He did not regard the reduction of licences as the most essential branch of temperance reform. He looked upon the provision of counter attractions, which were wholly unprovided for in this Bill, and the maintenance of the control of the justices, as far more important than the mere reduction of licences, which to a large extent would be made more difficult under this Bill than it was now. There could be no difficulty in providing compulsory power under the Bill, because the hon. Baronet the Member for Northwest Manchester, Lord Peel, and others suggested a scheme by which compulsion could be effected, and they recorded in the Minority Report that a great reduction of licences was a matter of the first importance, and that the redistribution of licensed houses should be safeguarded by a statutory maximum of say one on-licensed house to every 750 persons in a town population, and every 400 in a country population. Their view was that in seven years the number of on-licences should be reduced to that figure in England, and within five years in Scotland. The hon. Baronet knew that the distribution of licences in the North was much more approximate to this standard than it was in England. He wished the hon. Baronet had himself raised this point, and all the more because, although they had heard a great deal as to the support moderate men would be able to give to temperance reform, the course of this debate had shown how utterly ineffective their support had been in the discussions on the Bill. The object of the hon. Baronet was that at the end of seven years in England and five years 886 in Scotland, the field should be left clear for legislative experiments by Parliament in the way of providing for the elimination of the element of profit in the liquor traffic, or any other method by which the liquor traffic could be more effectively controlled than at present. Besides that there should be absolute freedom for local communities to control the liquor traffic, either through local option or any other effective system of administration. Judging from his experience of the working of the present system he believed this Bill would form an effective check to the development of temperance reform schemes in the direction he had indicated. He believed that a compulsory reduction of licences would in some degree be a mitigation of the evils which would follow the passing of the Bill, and that it would be some security for leaving the way open for future experiments. It would also secure that the public would not have to pay a great deal more than they ought to. What the public were losing through this Bill was the rights in the monopoly which had been created by the public. That constituted to his mind confiscation of public property. He moved his Amendment, and would leave it to the judgment of the House.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 1, line 10, to leave out the word 'but,' and insert the word 'and.'"—(Mr. Munro Ferguson.)
§ Question proposed, "That the word 'but' stand part of the clause.'"
§ SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid that the Amendment put from the Chair had no relation to the important question raised by the hon. Member opposite. The hon. Member had spoken on many points of great public importance, and had said that under this Bill the public were losing the benefit of a monopoly which belonged to them. If that were so, all he could say was that the public had been a very long time in trying to regain that monopoly. In his view the public would have a very much better chance of securing that monopoly on a proper basis when this Bill was passed, because it was practically admitted that during the last fifty or sixty years no progress had been made in the reduction of public-houses at 887 all. The object of the Amendment was to lay down a fixed proportion of public-houses to population in every district in the country, and to do so in general terms. That was impossible, because the requirements of every district were absolutely different from those of other districts, and the hon. Member had the Report of the Commission against him. It appeared that the hon. Member also wished, in laying down his arbitrary statutory maximum or minimum, to provide an unlimited amount of compensation. His principle might be all very well if they were dealing with public funds, but was quite out of place when they were calling on the trade itself to supply the money for the insurance. He entirely disputed the suggestion that licences which had no value now would acquire a value by the passage of this Bill. They had put the clearest possible language into the Bill to prevent that.
§ MR. MARKHAM (Nottinghamshire, Mansfield)said that according to a trade paper no one doubted that those who would have to pay this tax were the consumers of liquor.
§ MR. BOUSFIELD (Hackney, N.)said that the complaint of the hon. Member was that in this Bill no provision was made for what he spoke of as counter attractions to the public-house, and he seemed to regard that as of more importance than the reduction of licences. He himself had always held that view, and had preached it in vain to hon. Gentlemen opposite. When the hon. Member for Wolverhampton introduced his Parish Councils Bill he moved an Amendment that parish councils should have the power to provide parish rooms which would be a counter attraction to the public-houses, but that Amendment was refused. The object of the Amend-
§ ment, as he gathered, was to secure a compulsory reduction in the number of licences. He himself had put on the Paper an Amendment with the object of making it the duty of magistrates to give attention to the number of public-houses in proportion to the requirements of the population. He hoped that the Government would give their attention to this matter, and would see whether they could not insert in the Bill some provision in the direction suggested in his Amendment.
§ MR. WHITTAKERsaid that if they were to pass a compensation scheme they should secure some substantial reduction of licences. But under the Bill there was no guarantee that there would be any reduction anywhere. It would be optional for the local justices to make a recommendation, optional for quarter sessions to accept the recommendation, and optional for quarter sessions to raise a fund. The object of this Amendment was to make it certain that there would be a reduction if the on-licences exceeded a certain number. The Amendment suggested a reasonable number in proportion to the population. In order to deal with the case of London it would be easy to institute a special class of licences for hotels, so that the ordinary drinking bar should be limited to some definite proportion. It was said that if this Amendment were adopted there would be an unlimited levy. There ought to been unlimited levy. There ought to be power to make a levy in order to raise whatever amount of money was necessary I to make the reduction that was deemed necessary.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 264; Noes, 167. (Division List No. 209.)
891| AYES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Baird, John George Alexander | Blundell, Colonel Henry |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Balcarres, Lord | Bond, Edward |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r | Bousfield, William Robert |
| Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O. | Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Bowles, Lt.-Col. H.F (Middlesex |
| Arrol, Sir William | Balfour, Rt. Hon. G.W. (Leeds) | Brassey, Albert |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John |
| Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. | Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Brotherton, Edward Allen |
| Austin, Sir John | Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh.) |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Bignold, Arthur | Bull, William James |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Bigwood, James | Burdett-Coutts, W. |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Bill, Charles | Butcher, John George |
| Carlile, William Walter | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley | Myers, William Henry |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Heaton, John Henniker | Newdegate, Francis A. N. |
| Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire | Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. | Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway,N.) |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Hickman, Sir Alfred | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hoare, Sir Samuel | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Hobhouse,Rt.Hn H(Somers't,E | O'Dowd, John |
| Chamberlain, Rt.Hn J. A(Wore. | Hogg. Lindsay | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Hope, J.F.(Sheffield,Brightside | Parker, Sir Gilbert |
| Chapman, Edward | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington |
| Charrington, Spencer | Hoult, Joseph | Peel, Hn.Wm.Robert Wellesley |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Houston, Robert Paterson | Pemberton, John S. G. |
| Coates, Edward Feetham | Howard, Jn.(Kent, Faversham | Percy, Earl |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Pilkington, Colonel Richard |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Jameson, Major J. Eustace | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Plummer, Walter R. |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred. | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Craig, CharlesCurtis( Antrim,S.) | Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T.(Denbigh) | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward. |
| Crean, Eugene | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop) | Pym, C. Guy |
| Cripps, Charles Alfred | Kerr, John | Quilter, Sir Cuthbert |
| Cross,Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) | Keswick, William | Ratcliff, R. F. |
| Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile | Kimber, Henry | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Cubitt, Hon. Henry | King, Sir Henry Seymour | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Knowles, Sir Lees | Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. | Renwick, George |
| Davenport, William Bromley | Laurie, Lieut.-General | Richards, Henry Charles |
| Davies,Sir Horatio D.(Chatham | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green |
| Dickinson, Robert Edmond | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks., N.R. | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Dimsdale, Rt.Hn. Sir Joseph C. | Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham) | Robinson, Brooke |
| Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| Doogan, P. C. | Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. | Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye |
| Doughty, George | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Long, Rt.Hn.Walter(Bristol,S.) | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Lowe, Francis William | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Dyke, Rt.Hn.Sir William Hart | Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) | Samuel, Sir Harry S.(Limehouse |
| Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| Faber, Edmund B. (Hants.,W.) | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | Seton-Karr, Sir Henry |
| Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Macdona, John Gumming | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | MacIver, David (Liverpool) | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Fison, Frederick William | Maconochie, A. W. | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
| FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Smith, H. C(North'mb. Tyneside |
| Flannery, Sir Fortescue | M'Fadden, Edward | Smith James Parker (Lanarks.) |
| Flower, Sir Ernest | M'Iver,SirLewis(Edinburgh,W. | Spear, John Ward |
| Forster, Henry William | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Stanley, Hn.Arthur (Ormskirk) |
| Galloway, William Johnson | M'Killop W. (Sligo, North) | Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset) |
| Gardner, Ernest | Majendie, James A. H. | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lanes.) |
| Garfit, William | Malcolm, Ian | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
| Gordon, Hn.J.E.(Elgin&Nairn) | Martin, Richard Biddulph | Stock, James Henry |
| Gordon, Maj. Evans (T'r H'lets) | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Gore, Hon. S.F. Ormsby-(Linc) | Maxwell, Rt Hn. Sir H.E.(Wigt'n | Stroyan, John |
| Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | Maxwell, W. J. H (Dumfriesshire | Strutt, Hon. Charles Healey |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Melville, Beresford Valentine | Talbot, Lord E. (Chiehester) |
| Graham, Henry Robert | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) |
| Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury) | Milvain, Thomas | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Greene, W.Raymond- (Cambs.) | Molesworth, Sir Lewis | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Grenfell, William Henry | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Tuff, Charles |
| Gretton, John | Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.) | Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward |
| Greville, Hon. Ronald | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Valentia, Viscount |
| Groves, James Grimble | Moore, William | Vincent,Col.SirC.E.H.(Sheffield |
| Hall, Edward Marshall | Morgan David J.(Walthamstow | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) |
| Hambro, Charles Eric | Morpeth, Viscount | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford) | Morrell, George Herbert | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Hare, Thomas Leigh | Morrison, James Archibald | Webb, Colonel William George |
| Harris, F. Leverton(Tynem'th) | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | Welby, Sir Charles G.E.(Notts.) |
| Harris, Dr. Fredk.R. (Dulwich) | Mount, William Arthur | Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- |
| Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. | Murray,Rt.Hn.A.Graham(Bute | Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd |
| Whiteley,H.(Ashton und.Lyne) | Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- | Sir Alexander Acland-Hood |
| Willoughby de Eresby, Lord | Wrightson, Sir Thomas | and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes. |
| Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.) | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George | |
| Wilson-Todd,Sir W.H.(Yorks.) | Young, Samuel | |
| Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm | Younger, William | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Price, Robert John |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Hain, Edward | Reckitt, Harold James |
| Allen, Charles P. | Harcourt, Lewis V.(Rossendale | Reddy, M. |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Harwood, George | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Asquith, Rt.Hn.Herbert Henry | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Rigg, Richard |
| Barlow, John Emmott | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Higham, John Sharpe | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Benn, John Williams | Holland, Sir William Henry | Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) |
| Black, Alexander William | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | Roche, John |
| Boland, John | Horniman, Frederick John | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. | Rose, Charles Day |
| Brigg, John | Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk. | Runciman, Walter |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) | Russell, T. W. |
| Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) | Jacoby, James Alfred | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Schwann, Charles E. |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Jones William (Carnarvonshire | Seely, Maj. J.E.B.(Isle of Wight |
| Burns, John | Jordan, Jeremiah | Shackleton, David James |
| Burt, Thomas | Joyce, Michael | Shaw, Charles Edw.(Stafford) |
| Caldwell, James | Kennedy, Vincent P.(Cavan,W. | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Kitson, Sir James | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Lambert, George | Slack, John Bamford |
| Cawley, Frederick | Langley, Batty | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal,W.) | Smith, Samuel (Flint) |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Stanhope, Hon. Philip James |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Leese,Sir Joseph F.(Accrington | Strachey, Sir Edward |
| Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark) | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Sullivan, Donal |
| Cremer, William Randal | Long, Sir John | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Crombie, John William | Levy, Maurice | Tennant, Harold John |
| Crooks, William | Lloyd-George, David | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) |
| Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Lough, Thomas | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Cullman, J. | Lundon, W. | Thomas,David Alfred (Merthyr) |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Lyell, Charles Henry | Thomas, J.A(Glamorgan,Gower |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Tomkinson, James |
| Davies, M.Vaughan- (Cardigan) | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Toulmin, George |
| Delany, William | M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Denny, Colonel | M'Crae, George | Ure, Alexander |
| Dilke, Rt, Hon. Sir Charles | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Wallace, Robert |
| Dobbie, Joseph | Markham, Arthur Basil | Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S. |
| Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) |
| Dunn, Sir William | Moss, Samuel | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Edwards, Frank | Moulton, John Fletcher | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Elliee,Capt.EC(S.Andrw's Bghs | Murphy, John | White, Luke (York, E.R.) |
| Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) | Newnes, Sir George | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Emmott, Alfred | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Eve, Harry Trelawney | O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary,Mid | Wilson, Fred. W.(Norfolk,Mid.) |
| Fenwick, Charles | O'Doherty, William | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.) |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Freeman-Thomas, Captain F. | O'Malley, William | Wood, James |
| Furness, Sir Christopher | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Woodhouse, Sir JT.(Huddersf'd |
| Gladstone,Rt.Hn.Herbert John | Parrott, William | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Partington, Oswald | |
| Grant, Corrie | Paulton, James Mellor | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Philipps, John Wynford | Mr. Munro Ferguson and |
| Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | Power, Patrick Joseph | Mr. Herbert Lewis. |
§ MR. ASQUITHThe Amendment which stands in the name of my hon. and learned friend the Member for Anglesey, and which I propose now to 892 move, raises a question of interest and importance second to none in the whole Bill; it raises, in fact, the whole question of compensation. The Committee, I am 893 sure, will not be surprised to hear that in submitting it I am embarrassed by the conditions under which I am compelled to speak. It is not as though I or anyone in this House was in the least degree entitled to complain of the time which has been occupied last night and this evening by previous Amendments. Point after point of the most serious importance has been barely and boldly stated to the House, and has been at once divided upon, without the advantage which, in Committee at any rate, we are accustomed to derive from the free play of informal, but not less useful, arguments across the floor of the House. A severe and, as some of my hon. friends would say, excessive self-restraint has been exercised. I am not at all sure that the results which have been achieved will be held to warrant its repetition. But at any rate, it is perfectly true that there has been no waste of time, no excess of talk, and no diversion of the attention of the House from serious and important to trivial and frivolous points. But when I approach this Amendment I cannot discuss it without considering its relation to, and its effect upon the remainder of this clause. What is the clause we are discussing? It contains twenty-two lines, of which we have discussed six. Upon the Order Paper at this moment there stand fifteen pages of Amendments, which I will not say remain for discussion, but
§ which are to be ignored and passed aside without any discussion at all. They embrace some of the most important features of this Bill. But how am I, in the five minutes which are still to elapse before the guillotine falls, to say anything really useful or fruitful about that which is the vital and essential principle of this Bill? The provision in the lines which I have moved to omit, the provision which in future will restrain all power to refuse or reduce licences in conformity with the limited dimensions of a fund which will be small and exiguous, and in some parts of the country, may not exist at all —this proposal, this far-reaching, deep-seated, and unprecedented revolution in the whole of our law of licensing is to pass now from this Committee unamended and even undiscussed. The procedure of the House of Commons is reduced to a farce. We are taking part in a parody of debate, and making ourselves accomplices in a caricature of the forms, and a betrayal of the spirit of Parliamentary institutions.
§ Amendment proposed—
§ "In page 1, line 10, to leave out from the world 'but' to the end of line 12."—(Mr. Asquith.)
§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 279; Noes, 210. (Division List No 210.)
897| AYES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Chapman, Edward |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Bignold, Arthur | Charrington, Spencer |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Bigwood, James | Clare, Octavius Leigh |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Bill, Charles | Clive, Captain Percy A. |
| Arnold-Forstcr,Rt,Hn.Hugh O. | Blundell, Colonel Henry | Coates, Edward Feetham |
| Arrol, Sir William | Bond, Edward | Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Bousfield, William Robert | Cohen, Benjamin Louis |
| Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt.Hn.Sir H. | Bowles, Lt.-Col.H.F.(Middlesex | Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole |
| Austin, Sir John | Brassey, Albert | Compton, Lord Alwyne |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Brodrick, Rt, Hon. St. John | Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Brown, Sir Alex. H.(Shropsh-) | Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S. |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Bull, William James | Cripps, Charles Alfred |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Burdett-Coutts, W. | Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Butcher, John George | Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Carlile, William Walter | Cubitt, Hon. Henry |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J.(Manch'r | Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Cust, Henry John C. |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Cautley, Henry Strother | Dalkeith, Earl of |
| Balfour, Rt, Hn. GeraldW(Leeds | Cavendish, V. C.W.(Derbyshire | Dalrymple, Sir Charles |
| Balfour, Kenneth R.(Christch. | Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Davenport, W. Bromley- |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Davies,Sir HoratioD.(Chatham |
| Bartley, Sir George C. T. | Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Dickinson, Robert Edmond |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A.(Wore. | Dickson, Charles Scott |
| Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph C. | Keswick, William | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Kimber, Henry | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Dixon-Hartland,SirFred Dixon | King, Sir Henry Seymour | Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine |
| Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E. | Knowles, Sir Lees | Renwick, George |
| Doughty, George | Lambton, Hon.Frederick Wm. | Richards, Henry Charles |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Laurie, Lieut.-General | Ridley, S.Forde'(Bethnal Green |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Law, Andrew Bonar(Glasgow) | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Lawson JohnGrant(Yorks.N.R | Robinson, Brooke |
| Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart | Lee,Arthur H.(Hants,Fareham | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye |
| Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W. | Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Fardell, Sir T. George | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Round, Rt. Hon. James |
| Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J.(Manc'r | Long, Col.Charles W.(Evesham | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Long, Rt.Hn.Walter (Bristol,S) | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
| Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Lowe, Francis William | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) | Samuel,SirHarry S. (Limehouse |
| Fison, Frederick William | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone,W.) |
| Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon | Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth | Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln) |
| Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | Seton-Karr, Sir Henry |
| Flower, Sir Ernest | Macdona, John dimming | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Forster, Henry William | MacIver, David (Liverpool) | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
| Foster, Philip S.(Warwick,S.W. | Maconochie, A. W. | Smith,H.C(North'mb.Tyneside |
| Galloway, William Johnson | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.) |
| Gardner, Ernest | M'Iver,SirLewis(Edinburgh,W. | Spear, John Ward |
| Garfit, William | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Stanley, Hn. Arthur(Ormskirk |
| Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H. | Majendie, James A. H. | Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset) |
| Gordon, Hn. J.E. (Elgin&Nairn | Malcolm, Ian | Stanley, Rt.Hn.Lord (Lancs.) |
| Gordon,Maj.Evans-(T'rH'ml'ts | Martin, Richard Biddulph | Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart |
| Gore, Hn. S.F. Ormsby-(Linc) | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F. | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
| Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | Maxwell, Rt Hn.SirH.E(Wigt'n | Stock, James Henry |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Maxwell, W. J. H.(Dumfriesshire | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Graham, Henry Robert | Melville, Beresford Valentine | Stroyan, John |
| Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.) | Milvain, Thomas | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G.(Oxf'd Univ. |
| Grenfell, William Henry | Molesworth, Sir Lewis | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth |
| Gretton, John | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Greville, Hon. Ronald | Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.) | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Groves, James Grimble | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Hall, Edward Marshall | Moore, William | Tuff, Charles |
| Hambro, Charles Eric | Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow | Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward |
| Hardy,Laurence(Kent, Ashford | Morpeth, Viscount | Valentia, Viscount |
| Hare, Thomas Leigh | Morrell, George Herbert | Vincent, Col. Sir C. F. H(Sheffield |
| Harris, F. Leverton(Tynem'th) | Morrison, James Archibald | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) |
| Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Hay, Hon. Claude George | Mount, William Arthur | Warde, Colonel C.E. |
| Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. | Webb, Colonel William George |
| Heath, James (Staffords., N.W.) | Murray, Rt. Hn. A.Graham(Bute | Welby, Lt. Col.A.C.E.(Taunton |
| Heaton, John Henniker | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Welby, SirCharlesG.E.(Notts. |
| Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.) | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- |
| Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. | Myers, William Henry | Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd |
| Hickman, Sir Alfred | Newdegate, Francis A. N. | Whiteley, H.(Ashton und.Lyne |
| Hoare, Sir Samuel | Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N.) | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Hobhouse,Rt Hn H.(Somers't,E | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
| Hogg, Lindsay | Parker, Sir Gilbert | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside | Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington | Wilson, A. Stanley (York,E.R.) |
| Houldsworth, Sir Win. Henry | Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley | Wilson-Todd, SirW.H.(Yorks.) |
| Hoult, Joseph | Pemberton, John S. G. | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Houston, Robert Paterson | Percy, Earl | Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson |
| Howard, J. (Kent Faversham | Pierpoint, Robert | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart- |
| Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil | Pilkington, Colonel Richard | Wrightson, Sir Thomas |
| Hudson, George Bickersteth | Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Jameson, Major G. Eustace | Plummer, Walter R. | Young, Samuel |
| Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Younger, William |
| Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred | Pretyman, Ernest George | |
| Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | |
| Kennaway, Rt.Hn.Sir John H. | Pym, C. Guy | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh | Quilter, Sir Cuthbert | Sir Alexander Acland-Hood |
| Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W.(Salop | Rankin, Sir James | and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes. |
| Kerr, John | Ratcliff, R. F. |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork,N.E.) | Furness, Sir Christopher | Partington, Oswald |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Goddard, Daniel Ford | Paulton, James Mellor |
| Allen, Charles P. | Grant, Corrie | Perks, Robert William |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Griffith, Ellis J. | Philipps, John Wynford |
| Asquith, Rt.Hn.Herbert Henry | Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Price, Robert John |
| Barlow, John Emmott | Hain, Edward | Priestley, Arthur |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. | Rea, Mussell |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Harcourt, Lewis V. (Rossendale | Reckitt, Harold James |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Harwood, George | Reddy, M. |
| Bell, Richard | Hayden, John Patrick | Redmond, John E. (Waterford |
| Benn, John Williams | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Black, Alexander William | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Rigg, Richard |
| Boland, John | Higham, John Sharpe | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Holland, Sir William Henry | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Brigg, John | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Horniman, Frederick John | Robson, William Snowdon |
| Brown, GeorgeM.( Edinburgh) | Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. | Roche, John |
| Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Hutton, Alfred E. (Mortley) | Rose, Charles Day |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Jacoby, James Alfred | Runciman, Walter |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Russell, T. W. |
| Burns, John | Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Burt, Thomas | Jones, William, Carnarvonshire | Schwann, Charles E. |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Jordan, Jeremiah | Seely, Maj. J.E.B (Isle of Wight) |
| Caldwell, James | Joyce, Michael | Shackleton, David James |
| Cameron, Robert | Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan,W.) | Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) |
| Campbell, John (Armagh,S.) | Kilbride, Denis | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.) |
| Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Kitson, Sir James | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Cawley, Frederick | Lambert, George | Sheehy, David |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Langley, Batty | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.) | Slack, John Bamford |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Smith, Samuel (Flint) |
| Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark | Leamy, Edmund | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Crean, Eugene | Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington | Stanhope, Hon. Philip James |
| Cremer, William Randal | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Stevenson, Francis S. |
| Crombie, John William | Leng, Sir John | Strachey, Sir Edward |
| Crooks, William | Levy, Maurice | Sullivan, Donal |
| Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Lewis, John Herbert | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Cullinan, J. | Lloyd-George, David | Tennant, Harold John |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Lough, Thomas | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Lundon, W. | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan | Lyell, Charles Henry | Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr) |
| Delany, William | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Thomas, J A (GlamorganGower |
| Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Tillet, Louis John |
| Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Tomkinson, James |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | M'Crae, George | Toulmin, (George |
| Dobbie, Joseph | M'Fadden, Edward | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Doogan, P. C. | M'Kenna, Reginald | Ure, Alexander |
| Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | Wallace, Robert |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin | Walton, JohnLawson(Leeds,S.) |
| Dunn, Sir William | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Edwards, Frank | Markham, Arthur Basil | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) |
| Elibank, Master of | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Wason John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Ellice,Capt. EE(S.Andrw'sBghs | Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Ellis, John Edward (Notts.). | Moss, Samuel | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Emmott, Alfred | Moulton, John Fletcher | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Evans,Sir Francis H (Maidstone | Murphy, John | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Eve, Harry Trelawney | Newnes, Sir George | Wilson, Fred. W.(Norfolk, Mid.) |
| Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.) |
| Fenwick, Charles | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Wood, James |
| Field, William | O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid | Woodhouse,Sir J.T (Huddersf'd |
| Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | O' Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | O'Doherty, William | |
| Flynn, James Christopher | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | O'Dowd, John | Herbert Gladstone and Mr. |
| Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | O'Malley, William | William M'Arthur. |
| Freeman-Thomas, Captain F. | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | |
| Fuller, J. M. F. | Parrott, William |
Question, "That the Amendment be made," put, and agreed to.
§ And, it being after Eleven of the clock, the Chairman proceeded, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 5th July, successively to put forthwith the Question on any Amendments moved by the Government of which notice had been given, and on every Question necessary to dispose of the allotted Business to be concluded on the first allotted Day.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 1, line 13, after the word 'an,' to insert the word 'existing.'—(Mr. Secretary A hers-Douglas.)
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 1, line 16, after the word 'district,' to insert the words 'on the consideration by them, in accordance with the Licensing Acts, 1828 to 1902, of applications for the renewal of licences.'"—(Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.)
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 1, line 17, after the word 'particular,' to insert the word 'existing.'"—(Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.)
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 1, line 19, after the word 'an,' to insert the word "existing."—(Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.)
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 1, line 23, after the word 'premises,' to insert the words 'and unless it appears to quarter sessions unnecessary, any other persons appearing to them to be interested in the question of the renewal of the licence of those premises.'"—(Mr. Secretary Akers Donglas).
§ Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
§ The Committee divided; Ayes 285; Noes, 198. (Division List No. 211.)
903| AYES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Faber, Edmund B.( Hants, W.) |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J.A (Wore. | Fardell, Sir T. George |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Fergusson,Rt. Hn.Sir J. (Manc'r |
| Arnold-Forster, Rt.Hn. Hugh O | Chapman, Edward | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst |
| Arrol, Sir William | Charrington, Spencer | Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Clare, Octavius Leigh | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne |
| Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. | Clive, Captain Percy A. | Fisher, William Hayes |
| Austin, Sir John | Coates, Edward Feetham | Fison, Frederick William |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Fitzroy, Hn.Edward Algernon |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Flannery, Sir Fortescue |
| Balcarres, Lord | Compton, Lord Alwyne | Flavin, Michael Joseph |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Flower, Sir Ernest |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r | Cox,Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Forster, Henry William |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Craig, Charles Curtis(Antrim,S. | Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W. |
| Balfour,Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds | Cripps, Charles Alfred | Galloway, William Johnson |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. | Cross,Herb, Shepherd (Bolton) | Gardner, Ernest |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile | Garfit, William |
| Bartley, Sir George C. T. | Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H. |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Cust, Henry John C. | Gordon, Hn J.E.(Elgin&Nairn) |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Dalkeith, Earl of | Gordon,Maj Evans (T'rH'mlet |
| Bignold, Arthur | Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Gore, Hn. S. F.Ormsby- (Line.) |
| Bigwood, James | Davenport, W. Bromley | Goulding, Edward Alfred |
| Bill, Charles | Davies, SirHoratio D.(Chatham | Graham, Henry Robert |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Denny, Colonel | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) |
| Bond, Edward | Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny,N.) | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) |
| Bousfield, William Robert | Dickinson, Robert Edmond | Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) |
| Bowles, Lt.-Col.H.F.(Middlesex | Dickson, Charles Scott | Grenfell, William Henry |
| Brassey, Albert | Dimsdale,Rt.Hn.Sir Joseph C. | Gretton, John |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Greville, Hon. Ronald |
| Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh.) | Dixon-Hartlaud,SirFred Dixon | Groves, James Grimble |
| Bull, William James | Doogan, P. C. | Hall, Edward Marshall |
| Burdett-Couts, W. | Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E. | Hambro, Charles Erie |
| Butcher, John George | Doughty, George | Hardy,Laurence(Kent Ashford |
| Carlile, William Walter | Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers- | Hare, Thomas Leigh |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th) |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Duke, Henry Edward | Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich) |
| Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire | Darning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart | Hay, Hon. Claude George |
| Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley | Massey-Mainwairing,Hn. W. F | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) |
| Heath, James (Staffords., N.W. | Maxwell, Rt Hn. Sir HE (Wigt'n | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
| Heaton, John Henniker | Maxwell W.J. H (Dumfriesshire | Sackville,Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Holder, Augustus | Melville, Beresford Valentine | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Henderson,Sir A. (Stafford, W.) | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. | Samuel,Sir HarryS,(Limehouse |
| Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| Hickman, Sir Alfred | Milvain, Thomas | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Hoare, Sir Samuel | Molesworth, Sir Lewis | Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln) |
| Hogg, Lindsay | Montagu, G.(Huntingdon) | Seton-Karr, Sir Henry |
| Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside | Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hauls.) | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Simeon, Sir Harrington |
| Hoult, Joseph | Moore, William | Skewes-Cox, Thomas |
| Houston, Robert Paterson | Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow | Smith, HC (North'mb,Tyneside |
| Howard, J. (Kent, Faversham) | Morpeth, Viscount | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.) |
| Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil | Morrell, George Herbert | Spear, John Ward |
| Hudson, George Bickersteth | Morrison, James Archibald | Stanley, Hn. Arthur(Ormskirk |
| Jameson, Major J. Eustace | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset) |
| Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Mount, William Arthur | Stanley,Rt. Hon. Lord (Lanes.) |
| Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. | Stewart, Sir Mark J.M'Taggart |
| Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton | Murray, Rt Hn. A.Graham (Bute | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
| Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Murray,Charles J. (Coventry) | Stock, James Henry |
| Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Kenyon, Hn. Geo. F. (Denbigh) | Myers, William Henry | Stroyan, John |
| Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop. | Newdegate, Francis A. N. | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Kerr, John | Nolan, Col. J. P. (Galway, N.) | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Keswick, William | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G.(Oxf'd Univ |
| Kimber, Henry | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| King, Sir Henry Seymour | Parker, Sir Gilbert | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Knowles, Sir Lees | Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Laurie, Lieut.-General | Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley | Tuff, Charles |
| Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Pemberton, John S. G. | Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward |
| Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) | Percy, Earl | Valentia, Viscount |
| Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks. N.R. | Pierpoint. Robert | Vincent, Col. Sir C.EH (Sheffield |
| Lee, Arthur H (Hants. Fareham | Pilkington, Colonel Richard | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) |
| Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. | Plummer, Walter R. | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Powell, Sir Francis Sharpe | Webb, Colonel William George |
| Long, Col. Chafe. W.(Evesham | Pretyman, Ernest George | Welby, Lt. -Col. A. C. E. (Taunton |
| Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol S. | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts |
| Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Pym, C. Guy | Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- |
| Lowe, Francis William | Quilter, Sir Cuthbert | Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd |
| Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) | Rankin, Sir James | Whiteley, H.(Ashton und. Lyne |
| Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Ratcliff, R. F. | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft | Reid, James (Greenock) | Williams, Colonel Lt. (Dorset) |
| Lucas, Reginald J (Portsmouth | Remnant, James Farquharson | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Lyttelton, Rt. Hon, Alfred | Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R. |
| Macdona, John Gumming | Renwick, George | Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H. (Yorks.) |
| MacIver, David (Liverpool) | Richards, Henry Charles | Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson |
| Maconochie, A. W. | Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green | Wortley, Rt. Hon.C. B. Stuart- |
| M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| M'Iver, Sir Lewis(Edinburgh W | Robertson, Herb. (Hackney) | Young, Samuel |
| M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Robinson, Brooke | Younger, William |
| M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. | |
| Maejndie, James A. H. | Rollit, Sir Albert Kayo | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir |
| Malcolm, Ian | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert | Alexander Acland - Hood |
| Martin, Richard Biddulph | Round, Rt. Hon. James | and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes. |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William(Cork, N. E.) | Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Channing, Francis Allston |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Brigg, John | Churchill, Winston Spencer |
| Allen, Charles P. | Broadhurst, Henry | Condon, Thomas Joseph |
| Ambrose, Robert | Brown, George M.(Edinburgh) | Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark) |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Cremer, William Randal |
| Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herb. Henry | Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Crombie, John William |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Crooks, William |
| Barlow, John Emmott | Burke, E. Haviland- | Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Burns, John | Cullinan, J. |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Burt, Thomas | Dalziel, James Henry |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Caldwell, James | Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) |
| Bell, Richard | Cameron, Robert | Davies,M. Vaughan-(Cardigan |
| Benn, John Williams | Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Delany, William |
| Black, Alexander William | Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles |
| Boland, John | Cawley, Frederick | Dobbie, Joseph |
| Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.) | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) | Rose, Charles Day |
| Dunn, Sir William | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Runciman, Walter |
| Edwards, Prank | Leamy, Edmund | Russell, T. W. |
| Elibank, Master of | Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Ellice,CaptE.C(S.Andrw'sBghs | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Schwann, Charles E. |
| Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) | Leng, Sir John | Seely, Maj. J. E. B.(IsleofWight |
| Emmott, Alfred | Levy, Maurice | Shackleton, David James |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas | Lewis, John Herbert | Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) |
| Evans,Sir Francis H (Maidstone | Lloyd-George, David | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.) |
| Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | Lough, Thomas | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Eve, Harry Trelawney | Lundon, W. | Sheehy, David |
| Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Lyell, Charles Henry | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Fenwick, Charles | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Slack, John Bamford |
| Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | M'Crae, George | Smith, Samuel (Flint) |
| Flynn, James Christopher | M'Fadden, Edward | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | M'Kenna, Reginald | Stanhope, Hon. Philip James |
| Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin | Stevenson, Francis S. |
| Freeman-Thomas, Captain F. | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Sullivan, Donal |
| Fuller, J. M. F. | Markham, Arthur Basil | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Furness, Sir Christopher | Mooney, John J. | Tennant, Harold John |
| Go ldard, Daniel Ford | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen), E. |
| Grant, Corrie | Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E. |
| Girffith, Ellis J. | Moss, Samuel | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr |
| Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | Moulton, John Fletcher | Thomas, J. A(Glamorgan,Gower |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Murphy, John | Tillet, Louis John |
| Ham, Edward | Newnes, Sir George | Tomkinson, James |
| Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard R. | Norton, Capt, Cecil William | Toulmin, George |
| Harcourt, Lewis V (Rossendale | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Harwood, George | O'Brien,Kendal(Tipperary Mid | Ure, Alexander |
| Hayden, John Patrick | O'Doherty, William | Wallace, Robert |
| Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S. |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | O'Dowd, John | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Higham, John Sharpe | O'Malley, William | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) |
| Holland, Sir William Henry | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Wason, JohnCathcart (Orkney) |
| Hope, J. Deans (Fife, West) | Parrott, William | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Horniman, Frederick John | Partington, Oswald | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Humphreys-Owens, Arthur C. | Paulton, James Mellor | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Hutchinson, Dr. Chas. Fredk. | Perks, Robert William | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) | Philipps, John Wynford | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Jacoby, James Alfred | Power, Patrick Joseph | Wilson, Fred.W.(Norfolk.Mid.) |
| Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Price, Robert John | Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.) |
| Joicey, Sir James | Priestley, Arthur | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Jones,DavidBrynmor (Swansea | Rea, Russell | Wood, James |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire | Reckitt, Harold James | Woodhouse,SirJ.T.(Hudd'rsfi'd |
| Jordan, Jeremiah | Reddy, N. | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Joyce, Michael | Rickett, J. Compton | |
| Kennedy, Vincent P.(Cavan, W. | Rigg, Richard | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Kilbride, Denis | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) | Herbert Gladstone and Mr. |
| Kitson, Sir James | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) | William M'Arthur |
| Lambert, George | Robson, William Snowdon | |
| Langley, Batty | Roche, John |
Question, "That the Amendment be made," put, and agreed to.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGE (Carnarvon Boroughs)said he wished to ask on a point of order whether those Members of the House who were personally and pecuniarily interested in the result of the division were entitled to vote.
THE CHAIRMANThe Rule of the House has always been that any Member who has a direct pecuniary interest is liable to have his vote struck off. I think I have correctly stated the Rule.
§ MR. SWIFT MACNEILL (Donegal, S.)asked, as a matter of practice, in order to 904 avoid complications and difficulties in the future, at what time should objection be taken to the votes of Members who had a direct personal pecuniary interest? The proper manner, he knew, would be to take objection immediately after the division, but there were so many gentlemen involved that they could not immediately bring all the votes that should be challenged to the notice of the House. Could they save themselves by taking formal exception now and giving notice that when the division list was printed they would bring the question before the House?
THE CHAIRMANThe practice has always been to call the attention of the House to the matter directly the division is taken.
§ Question put, "That Clause 1, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 281; Noes, 194. (Division List No. 212.)
909| AYES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Davies, Sir Horatio D(Chatham | Hozier, HonJamesHenryCecil |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) | Hudson, George Bickersteth |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Dickson, Charles Scott | Jameson, Major J. Eustace |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Hinsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Joseph C. | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse |
| Arnold-Forster,Rt. Hn.HughO. | Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. ArthurFred. |
| Arrol, Sir William | Dixon-Hartland, SirFred Dixon | Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Doogan, R. C. | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) |
| Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. SirH. | Dorington, Rt.Hon. Sir John E. | Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.( Denbigh) |
| Austin, Sir John | Doughty, George | Kenyon-Slaney,Col. W.(Salop. |
| Bagot, Capt. Joseeline FitzRoy | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers | Kerr, John |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Keswick, William |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Kimber, Henry |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart | King, Sir Henry Seymour |
| Balcarres, Lord | Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton | Knowles, Sir Lees |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W. | Laurie, Liet.-General |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r | Fardell, Sir T. George | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Fergusson, Rt.HnSirJ.(Mane'r | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) |
| Balfour,Rt.Hn.Gerald W.(Leeds | Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Lawson, JohnGrant( Yorks. N. R |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Chritsch. | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Lee, Arthur H.(Hants,Fareham |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Fisher, William Hayes | Llewellyn, Evan Henry |
| Hartley, Sir George C. T. | Fison, Frederick William | Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Fitzroy, Hon.Edward Algernon | Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham |
| Bignold, Arthur | Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Long, Rt.Hn.Walter (Bristol, S. |
| Bigwood, James | Flower, Sir Ernest | Lonsdale, John Brownlee |
| Bill, Charles | Forster, Henry William | Lowe, Francis William |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Foster, PhilipS.(Warwick,S.W. | Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) |
| Bond, Edward | Galloway, William Johnson | Loyd, Archie Kirkman |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Gardner, Ernest | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) |
| Bowles, Lt.-Col. H.F.(Middlesex | Garfit, William | Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth |
| Brassey, Albert | Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H. | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Gordon, Hn. J.E.(Elgin&Nairn | Macdona, John Cumming |
| Brotherton, Edward Allen | Gordon, Maj Evans (T'rH'mlets | MacIver, David (Liverpool) |
| Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh.) | Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby (Line.) | Maconochie, A. W. |
| Bull, William James | Goulding, Edward Alfred | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Graham, Henry Robert | M'Iver, SirLewis( Edinburgh,W |
| Butcher, John George | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) |
| Carlile, William Walter | Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.) | Majendie, James A. H. |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Grenfell, William Henry | Malcolm, Ian |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire | Gretton, John | Martin, Richard Biddulph |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Groves, James Grimble | Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H.E(Wigt'n |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Hall, Edward Marshall | Maxwell, W.J.H(Dumfriesshire |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J.A(Wore. | Hambro, Charles Eric | Melville, Beresford Valentine |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Hardy, Laurence( Kent, Ashford | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M |
| Chapman, Edward | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Charrington, Spencer | Harris, F.Leverton(Tynemouth | Milvain, Thomas |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Harris, Dr. Fredk. R.(Dulwieh) | Molesworth, Sir Lewis |
| Clive, Captain Percy A. | Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) |
| Coates, Edward Feetham | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Montagu, Hn. J.Scott (Hants.) |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Heath, James (Staffords.,N.W.) | Moore, William |
| Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Heaton, John Henniker | Morgan, David J.( Walthamstow |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Helder, Augustus | Morpeth, Viscount |
| Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Henderson, Sir A.(Stafford, W.) | Morrell, George Herbert |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S. | Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. | Morrison, James Archibald |
| Cripps, Charles Alfred | Hickman, Sir Alfred | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer |
| Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) | Hoare, Sir Samuel | Mount, William Arthur |
| Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile | Hogg, Lindsay | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. |
| Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Hope, J. F.(Sheffield, Brightside | Murray,Rt Hn A.Graham( Bute |
| Gust, Henry John C. | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Hoult, Joseph | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Houston, Robert Paterson | Myers, William Henry |
| Davenport, W. Bromley- | Howard, John(KentFaversham | Newdegate, Francis A. N. |
| Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway,N. | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Round, Rt. Hon. James | Tuff, Charles |
| Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) | Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward |
| Parker, Sir Gilbert | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Pease, HerbertPike( Darlington | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford | Vincent,Col Sir C.E.H(Sheffield |
| Peel, Hn.Wm. Robert Wellesley | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander | Vincent, Sir Eagar (Exeter) |
| Pemberton, John S. G. | Samuel,Sir HarryS.(Limehouse | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Perey, Earl | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert | Warde, Col. C. E. |
| Pierpoint, Robert | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | Webb, Colonel William George |
| Pilkington, Colonel Richard | Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln | Welby, Lt.-Col.A.C.E(Tauhton |
| Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Seton-Karr, Sir Henry | Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts. |
| Plummer, Walter R. | Sharpe, William Edward T. | Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon |
| Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Simeon, Sir Harrington | Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd |
| Pretyman, Ernest George | Skewes-Cox, Thomas | Whiteley, H. (Ashtonund Lyne |
| Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | Smith,H.C.(North' mb.Tyneside | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Pym, C. Guy | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks. | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
| Quilter, Sir Cuthbert | Spear, John Ward | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Rankin, Sir James | Stanley, Hon.Arthur(Ormskirk | Wilson, A.Stanley (York,E.R.) |
| Ratcliff, R. F. | Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset | Wilson-Todd, SirW.H.(Yorks) |
| Reid, James (Greenock) | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lanes. | Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson |
| Remnant, James Farquharson | Stewart, SirMark J.M'Taggart | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart |
| Renshaw, Sir Charles Pine | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. | Wrightson, Sir Thomas |
| Renwick, George | Stock, James Henry | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Richards, Henry Charles | Stone, Sir Benjamin | Young, Samuel |
| Ridley, S. Forde(BethnalGreen | Stroyan, John | Younger, William |
| Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley | |
| Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Sir |
| Robinson, Brooke | Talbot, Rt.Hn.J.G(Oxf'd Univ. | Alexander Acland-Hood and |
| Rolleston, Sir John F. L. | Thorburn, Sir Walter | Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes. |
| Rollit, Sir Albert Kayo | Tollemache, Henry James | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N.E. | Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan | Horniman, Frederick John |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Delany, William | Hutchinson, Dr.CharlesFredk. |
| Allen, Charles P. | Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) |
| Ambrose, Robert | Dobbie, Joseph | Jacoby, James Alfred |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | Johnson, John (Gateshead) |
| Asquith,Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry | Duncan, J. Hastings | Joicey, Sir James |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Dunn, Sir William | Jones, DavidBrynmor(Swansea |
| Barlow, John Emmott | Edwards, Frank | Jones, William(Carnarvonshire |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Elibank, Master of | Jordan, Jeremiah |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Elhco,CaptE.C.(StAndrw'sBghs | Joyce, Michael |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) | Kennedy, Vincent P.(Cavan,W |
| Bell, Richard | Emmott, Alfred | Kilbride, Denis |
| Benn, John Williams | Esmonde, Sir Thomas | Kitson, Sir James |
| Black, Alexander William | Evans, Sir Francis H(Maidstone | Lambert, George |
| Boland, John | Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | Langley, Batty |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Eve, Harry Trelawney | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) |
| Brigg, John | Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Layland-Barratt, Francis |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Fenwick, Charles | Leese, Sir Joseph F(Accrington |
| Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) | Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) | Leigh, Sir Joseph |
| Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | Leng, Sir John |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Levy, Maurice |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Flynn, James Christopher | Lewis, John Herbert |
| Burns, John | Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | Lloyd-George, David |
| Burt, Thomas | Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Lough, Thomas |
| Caldwell, James | Freeman-Thomas, Captain F. | Lundon, W. |
| Cameron, Robert | Furness, Sir Christopher | Lyell, Charles Henry |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Goddard, Daniel Ford | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. |
| Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Grant, Corrie | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift |
| Cawley, Frederick | Griffith, Ellis J. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah |
| Charming, Francis Allston | Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | M'Crae, George |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | M'Fadden, Edward |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Hain, Edward | M'Kenna, Reginald |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. | M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin |
| Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark) | Harcourt, Lewis V.(Rossendale | Mansfield, Horace Rendall |
| Cremer, William Randal | Harwood, George | Markham, Arthur Basil |
| Crombie, John William | Hayden, John Patrick | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) |
| Crooks, William | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Morley, Charles (Breconshire) |
| Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Moss, Samuel |
| Cullman, J | Higham, John Sharpe | Moulton, John Fletcher |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Holland, Sir William Henry | Murphy, John |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | Newnes, Sir George |
| Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Rose, Charles Day | Thomas, J. A(Glamorgan,Gower |
| Nussey, Thomas Willans | Runciman, Walter | Tillet, Louis John |
| O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid. | Russell, T. W. | Tomkinson, James |
| O'Doherty, William | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| O'Dowd, John | Schwann, Charles R. | Ure, Alexander |
| O'Malley, William | Seely, Maj. J.E.B.(Isle of Wight | Wallace, Robert |
| O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Shackleton, David James | Walton, John Lawson(Leeds,S.) |
| Parrott, William | Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Partington, Oswald | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) |
| Paulton, James Mellor | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel | Wason, JohnCathcart(Orkney) |
| Perks, Robert William | Sheehy, David | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Philipps, John Wynford | Shipman, Dr. John G. | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Power, Patrick Joseph | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Price, Robert John | Slack, John Bamford | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Priestley, Arthur | Sloan, Thomas Henry | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Rea, Russell | Smith, Samuel (Flint) | Wilson, Fred. W.(Norfolk,Mid. |
| Reckitt, Harold James | Soames, Arthur Wellesley | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.) |
| Reddy, M. | Stanhope, Hon. Philip James | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Riekett, J. Compton | Stevenson, Francis S. | Wood, James |
| Rigg, Richard | Sullivan, Donal | Woodhouse, Sir J.T. (Hudd'rsfi'd |
| Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) | Taylor, Theodore C.(Radeliffe) | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) | Tennant, Harold John | |
| Robson, William Snowdon | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr |
| Roche, John | Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.) | Herbert Gladstone and Mr. |
| Roe, Sir Thomas | Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr | William M'Arthur. |
Question put, and agreed to.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEMr. Chairman, I desire to call your attention to the fact that in the last division a number of Members voted in contravention of a Standing Order of the House. I refer to Order No. 143 which precribes that—
A Member may not vote on any question in which he has a direct pecuniary interest.I am going to submit to you the names of several Members who have a direct pecuniary interest in the subject-matter of the last division, and who voted in support of that interest. There have been two divisions on the question of compensation—one at eleven o'clock and the other the last division. In the first the majority was sixty-nine, and of those sixty-three had a direct pecuniary interest in the subject. I will pick out one or two instances and ask the judgment of the House upon them. I will take first the case of the hon. Member for South Salford. I submit that that hon. Member has a direct pecuniary interest in the vote he has recorded; it was a vote in favour of giving compensation for the first time in respect of licences disallowed. Under the present law he would receive no compensation in respect of houses the licences of which were refuse renewal by the magistrates. The moment this Bill becomes law it will add enormously to the value of his property; it will appreciate the value of the brewery shares he holds; and in respect of any houses which, in future, are disallowed he will receive a direct pecuniary advantage. In the circumstances, I submit that the 910 vote of the hon. Member should be disallowed, and I move that the vote of the hon. Member for South Salford in the last division be disallowed on the ground that he had a direct pecuniary interest in the vote which he recorded.
MR. CHAIRMANThere is no Standing Order that is applicable to the case. The book from which the hon. Member has quoted is not the Standing Orders, although I have no doubt that they are correctly stated in that book. The last ruling that I can find on the subject occurred on the Local Government (Ireland) Bill, 1898, when Mr. Speaker ruled as follows —
The Rule of the House is well understood. There must be a direct pecuniary interest of a private and particular nature, and not of a public and general nature; and where the question before the House is of a public and general nature, and incidentally involves the pecuniary interests, of a class which includes Members of the House, they are not prevented by the Rules of the House from voting.Therefore I do not think the Motion of the hon. Member would be in order.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEI understand that Mr. Speaker's ruling was that where the pecuniary advantage was incidental the general rule would not apply. I submit, however, that here the advantage is not incidental, but that the whole object and purpose of this Bill and this clause is to confer a direct pecuniary interest upon this class, and, as a matter of fact, does confer it. Therefore, I submit, this case comes within the Standing Order.
THE CHAIRMANI know that view is taken by the hon. Member and by a great many other hon. Members, but I think he will admit that it is not the universal view. [OPPOSITION cries of "It ought to be left to the House."] There is also this to be said, that it is perfectly possible that the hon. Member's financial position will not be affected in any way. [OPPOSITION cries of "Let him say whether or not it is."] Will hon. Members kindly allow me to finish the sentence? Supposing that none of the licences in which he is interested are affected. The interest of the hon. Member is not of that direct personal character to which the ruling of Mr. Speaker refers.
§ MR. DALZIEL (Kirkcaldy Burghs)May I call your attention to the Rule which says—
The Member whose vote is questioned by such a Motion may rise in his place to explain his position.
THE CHAIRMANI have already said that for the reasons I have given I do not think such a Motion as that which has been suggested can be properly moved.
§ MR. THOMAS SHAW (Hawick Burghs)As I understand, you have put the supposition to the Committee that the interest of the hon. Member may not be affected. I respectfully submit to you, Sir, that we should have that as a matter of fact, or otherwise, stated by the hon. Member.
§ MR. EMMOTT (Oldham)May I quote a specific case? I believe it is the fact that the hon. Member had negotiations with the justices of Manchester in regard to certain houses in which he is interested and an arrangement had been practically come to whereby the licences of those houses were to be surrendered. But owing to the interview between the Prime Minister and the brewers a year ago—I think the hon. Member's own avowal has acknowledged that—those negotiations fell through. Can it, therefore, be argued after that that the hon. Member is not directly interested.
THE CHAIRMANI do not know anything about the facts referred to by the hon. Member. I base myself upon 912 the ruling of Mr. Speaker in the case to which I have referred
'….where the question. … is of a public and general nature—I think it is so in this case—["No."]—and incidently involves the pecuniary interest of a class which includes Members of the House they are not prevented by the Rules of the House from voting.
§ MR. WHITTAKEROn the point of order may I submit that this is not a measure of a public nature; it does not incidentally include a class. It refers entirely to a class, and only to that class.
THE CHAIRMANI cannot accept the view of the hon. Member that this Bill does not deal with matters of a public nature.
§ MR. MOULTON (Cornwall, Launceston)May I point out that the rule begins by saying, "A Member may not vote on any question in which he has a pecuniary interest"?
§ MR. MOULTONRule 143. Surely it is a question of fact whether or not the Member whose vote is challenged has a direct pecuniary interest. May I suggest that it is not for you, Sir, as Chairman of Committees, to be, in your official character, so well-acquainted with his private affairs as to be able to pronounce whether a Member has or has not a direct pecuniary interest? The ruling that was given in May with regard to that says—
The interest must be a direct pecuniary interest, and separately belonging to the persons whose votes are questioned and not in common with the rest of His Majesty's subjects.The hon. Member put it as a question of fact that in this case the vote with regard to the compensation for licences is a vote in a matter in which the Member, whose vote is challenged, has a direct pecuniary interest, and I submit that the House has a right to have that—
THE CHAIRMANThe hon. Member is entitled to submit a point of order to me, but I do not think he will be in order in making a speech on it. May I point out to the hon. Member that what he 913 has quoted from is really a manual or guide? He has not quoted from the Standing Orders. The Standing Orders of the House do not refer to this matter, but I have quoted from the last decision of Mr. Speaker on the subject. Mr. Speaker decides points of order as they rise in the House, and it is my duty to decide upon points of order that arise in Committee.
§ MR. WINSTON CHURCHILL (Oldham)said, on the point of order, Sir, may I ask whether the conduct of the hon. Member in question falls within the ruling of Mr. Speaker which you have quoted, and is not rather a matter for the House than the Chair?
§ And, it being after Midnight, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
§ Committee report Progress; again upon Monday next.