Commons Sitting of 18 February 1904

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.
UNOPPOSED PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
  PRIVATE BILLS (STANDING ORDER 63 COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Heading thereof, Standing Order No. 63 has been complied with, viz:—Torquay Tramways Bill. Ordered, That i the Bill be read a second time.
  SUBSTITUTED BILLS (STANDING ORDERS APPLICABLE THERETO COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKER Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, introduced pursuant to the provisions of The Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, viz.:—Clyde Navigation (Shieldhall Docks); Clyde Navigation (Works).

  PRIVATE BILLS [LORDS].
  Mr. SPEAKER Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in
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  respect of the Bills comprised in the List reported by the Chairman of Ways and Means as intended to originate in the House of Lords, he has certified that the Standing Orders have been complied with in the following case, viz.:—Mid-Cheshire Tramways.
  London County Council (Tramways and Improvements) Bill. "To enable the London County Council to construct and work new tramways in the counties of London and Middlesex; to alter and re-construct tramways in the county of London; to make street improvements in the counties of London, Kent, and Middlesex; to empower the Council of the Metropolitan Borough of Woolwich to construct a new street; and for other purposes," presented, and read the first time; and ordered to be read a second time.
  Rotherham Corporation Bill. "To provide for altering the wards of the County Borough of Rotherham and for increasing the number of aldermen and councillors; to confer further powers on the Corporation of the borough in regard to their gas, water, tramways, and electrical undertakings; to make further provisions for the health, improvement, and local government of the borough; and for other purposes," presented, and read the first time: and ordered to be read a second time.

PETITIONS.

  LICENCES (RENEWAL).
  Petitions against alteration of Law; from Kidderminster; Shipley; Southend; Birmingham; Stoke Newington; Crigglestone; Knaresborough; Sunderland; Walton-on-the-Hill; Blandford; Salisbury (two); Lewisham; Gronant; Newcastle-on-Tyue (two); Liverpool (three); Coventry (two); Whixall; Ware; Preston (three); Ravensthorpe; Thurso; Fleetwood; Aberdeen; Neath; Stourbridge; Berwick-on-Tweed; Strom-ness; Settle; Hirwain; Aberdare; Troedyrhiw (three); Twrndare; Merthyr Tydfil"; Eccles; Bethesda; Eccleshill; Low Moor; Wibsey; Idle; Queensbury; Barton; Pendlebury; Whitchurch;

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  Halifax; Bristol; Clydebank; Sheffield; Woodhouse; Edinburgh (two); East Kirkby; Pensarn; Soar; Bermondsey; Tottenham; Tanygroes; Bethesda; Dyffryn Dyfi; Battersea; and Aber-dovey; to lie upon the Table.

  PAYMENT OF JURORS.
  Petition from London, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  RATING OF GROUND RENTS AND VALUES.
  Petition from Battersea, for legislation; to lie upon the Table
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  WOODS, FORESTS. AND LAND REVENUES.
  Abstract Accounts presented, for the year ended 31st March, 1903, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General thereon [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 66.]
  PAPER LAID UPON THE TABLE BY THE CLERK OF THE HOUSE.
  Inquiry into charities (Gateshead County Borough). Return relative thereto [ordered 9th February; Mr. Griffith-Boscawen]; to be printed. [No. 67.]

  QUEEN'S COLLEGE, BELFAST (STAFF AND EQUIPMENT).
  Return ordered, "of Copy of (1) Resolutions adopted by the Council of Queen's College, Belfast, on the 4th December, 1903, and by the Corporate Body on 9th December, 1903; (2) Irish Government Letter of 17th December, 1903, in acknowledgment of same; (3) Letter of 11th January, 1904, from the President of University College, Dublin; and (4) Irish Government Letter of 15th January. 1904, in acknowledgment of same."—(Mr. Wyndham.)
  Return presented accordingly; to lie upon the Table and to be printed. [No. 68.]

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

    Russia and the Treaty of Aigun.
    MR. MOON: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, having regard to the breach by Russia of the Convention to evacuate Manchuria, the Foreign Office has proposed to the Chinese Government that they should denounce the Treaty of Aigun, whereby the navigation of the Amur, Sungari, and Ussuri was opened by China to Russia exclusively.
    (Answered by Earl Percy.) His Majesty's Government do not consider that failure on the part of Russia to execute the provisions of the Convention for the evacuation of Manchuria would justify them in recommending the Chinese Government to denounce the Treaty of Aigun, which has been in force since 1858, and to which no objection has hitherto been taken.

    Atrocities on the Congo—Action of the Powers.
    MR. SCHWANN (Manchester, N.): To ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the present position of our negotiations with the other European Powers with regard to the alleged atrocities in the treatment of ! natives in the Congo State and the necessity of bringing that treatment before a competent tribunal to sift the evidence and, if proved, provide adequate remedies for the prevention of cruelties alleged to be practised in Mid Africa.
    (Answered by Earl Percy.) His Majesty's Government have addressed communications to the Powers on the subject referred to by the hon. Member, and no replies have yet been received.

    Sugar Refineries in East London—Persons Employed.
    SIR THOMAS DEWAR: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he can state the number of persons employed in sugar refineries in the East End of London for 1872, 1882, 1892 and 1902.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.) I am unable to supply the hon.

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    Member with the figures he desires for the years mentioned. The nearest information in my possession is as follows:—The Return of Persons Employed in 1901 (now in course of preparation), shows 1,969 persons employed in sugar refineries in the East of London and the adjoining part of Essex; and the Return for 1895 shows 1,552 persons employed for the same area; in both years the number employed in the East of London forming only a small part of the total. A Return for 1889–90 shows no persons employed in the East of London and 1,758 employed in the adjoining part of Essex; and a Return for 1870–1871 shows 1,332 persons employed in Essex and Middlesex together. In the last mentioned years, however, the statutory definition of factory was different from the present definition in the Factory Act, and the figures do not admit of comparison.

    Condition of Mrs. Maybrick's Release.
    MR. KEARLEY: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether Mrs. Maybrick will be released under any general rule applicable to all female convicts similarly situated; if not, whether he will state the grounds for her release; and whether any, and, if any, how many, female convicts who are now in prison have been confined for a longer period than Mrs. Maybrick's term of actual imprisonment.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.) The circumstances of female convicts under life sentences vary so much that there can be no general rule applicable to all. Each case has to be considered on its merits, and each case is so considered from time to time. It would be contrary to practice to state the grounds on which the prerogative of mercy is exercised in any case. No female convict is now in custody who has been confined for a longer period than Mrs. Maybrick has been; but this fact does not imply any rule as to the maximum detention of female convicts.

    Prison Commissioners and Public Contracts.
    SIR JOHN LENG: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that the Prison Commissioners have been
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    exhibiting to tenderers samples of foreign made canvas, to be made in the prisons of the United Kingdom into mail bags and other goods for the Post Office; that, contrary to the practice of all other Departments, the Prison Commissioners contract with middlemen instead of directly with manufacturers, and that in recent years these middlemen have negotiated largo contracts for the Government with French and Belgian firms; and whether' he will communicate with the Prison Commissioners in order to bring their method of contracting into line with that of other Government Departments.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.) I have referred to the Prison Commissioners in this matter, and am informed that they do not know the country of origin of the samples of canvas which are, in the ordinary course, offered for inspection to persons wishing to tender. They are the usual samples as obtained from various contractors, and, in any case, it is not implied that the tenders should be for foreign-made material. As regards the practice pursued by the Commissioners in inviting tenders, the proposed contracts, which are advertised extensively, are open to anyone, whether manufacturer or middleman, subject to the usual inquiries as to his capacity, respectability, etc. The Commissioners are of opinion that their peculiar circumstances, in having no facilities for storage, and being obliged to arrange for supplies to be delivered as wanted, in small quantities and at many different prisons on the requisition from time to time of governors, would, if the contracts were confined to large manufacturers, by adopting the practice of some other public Departments, whose circumstances are different, impose an inconvenient limit on the area of competition and might lead to a great increase in prices. Having regard to the requirements of the prison service, I see no sufficient reason for disturbing the present practice. I may add that, as a fact, under the existing contracts made in accordance with that practice, at least four-fifths of the canvas supplied are British-made.

    Vaccination Exemption Certificates—Case of Mr. Pratt, of Balderton.
    MR. CORRIE GRANT: To ask the Secretary of State

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    for the Home Department whether he is aware that Mr. Pratt, of Balderton, applied three times to the Newark County Petty Sessions for an exemption certificate from vaccination for his child and was refused, and that on the first two occasions his application was rejected because he had not a medical certificate that his child was unfit for vaccination; and whether, in view of the misapprehension among many magistrates as to their duties in this matter, he will propose amending legislation, substituting a statutory declaration of conscientious objection for the present application to the magistrates.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.) I have been made aware of this case by a letter from Mr. Pratt. The question of amending the Vaccination Acts does not fall within my Department.

    Rateable Value of Sugar Refineries in East End of London.
    SIR THOMAS DEWAR: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he can state the rateable value of sugar refineries in the East End of London for 1872, 1882, 1892, and 1902.
    (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) I am sorry that I am not in possession of the information for which my hon. friend asks.

    Russo-Japanese War—Interruptions of Mail Service.
    SIR JOHN COLOMB: To ask the Postmaster-General what, if any, alterations have been made in the mail service between the United Kingdom, British colonies or possessions, and Japan, consequent upon the outbreak of war between Japan and Russia.
    (Answered by Lord Stanley.) The mail service to the Far East via Russia and Siberia is suspended; and correspondence marked for conveyance by that route has to be sent via Suez or across America as the case may be. Otherwise no alterations have been made in the arrangements connected with the transmission of mails between the United Kingdom her colonies and possessions, and Japan.

    Postal Telegrams—Assimilation of Charges for Corresponding Words.
    SIR ROBERT HERMON-HODGE: To ask the Postmaster-General why it is that Goring-on-Thames counts as three words in a telegram, while Henley-on-Thames counts as one; and whether he will give instructions that in future Goring-on-Thamos shall count as one word instead of three.
    (Answered by Lord Stanley.) "Henley-on-Thames" is accepted as one word in telegrams under the rule which says that "all names of towns and villages in the United Kingdom are counted as one word each." Goring on Thames does not come under this rule because it is not the name of a town or village. The name of the village near Reading is Goring.

    New Road from Charing Cross to Mall—Date of Opening.
    MR. SOAMES: To ask the hon. Member for the Chorley Division, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, if he can state when the new-road from Charing Cross to the Mall is to be opened for traffic.
    (Answered by Lord Balcarres.) This work cannot be carried out until funds are provided, and the Metropolitan Improvements (Funds) Bill now awaiting Second Reading has been introduced for that purpose.

    Agricultural Banks in India.
    MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for India if he will state how many agricultural banks have been established in the different provinces of India up to the present time.
    (Answered, by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The Papers presented last session on the subject of the establishment of agricultural banks in India contain the available information as to the number of these banks which are at present in existence. More exact information will be obtained when the Bill before the Viceroy's Legislative Council to provide for their registration and working becomes law.

    Irrigation Works in India—Proposed Expenditure.
    MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for India if he will state what sum

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    it is proposed to spend on irrigation works in each Province of India during the present year, and when some of the irrigation works recommended in the Report of the Irrigation Commission are likely to be commenced.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The information desired by the hon. Member on the subject of the amount which it is proposed to spend on irrigation during the next financial year will be given, as usual, in the Financial Statement, which will, in due course, be presented to Parliament. I am awaiting the view's of the Government of India regarding the action that should be taken on the recommendations of the Irrigation Commission.

    Siemship of Cherra Native State, Assam.
    MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether he has received memorials from the people of the Cherra Native State, Assam, and from the ruling twelve clans of that State protesting against the action of the Government of India in overruling a decision of the late Chief Commissioner of Assam, Sir Henry Cotton, in regard to the appointment of a successor to the late Siem (Chief) U Hajon Manick, who died on the 24th May, 1901; and whether, seeing that Chundra Singh, the nearest relative of the late Siem, was always recognised during that chieftain's lifetime as the heir-apparent to the Siemship, and that the Khardarkar, or representatives of the twelve clans, on whom from time immemorial the election to a vacant Siemship has devolved, elected Chandra Singh by a majority of 8 to 4, will he explain why the decision of the late Chief Commissioner of Assam was reversed by the Government of India in favour of U Roba Singh, and will the question of succession be reconsidered.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) Memorials were received in 1902 from Chundra Singh, the rejected candidate for the Siemship of Cherra, and from representatives of the twelve clans who supported his claims. The Government of India, having regard to precedents and to all the circumstances of the case, were unable to approve the recommendation of the Chief Commissioner that the decision of the majority of the Durbar, referred to by the hon. Member, at which
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    only the twelve heads of the clans constituting the State were present, should be accepted, and ordered a popular election to be held, at which Roba Singh was chosen unanimously. The Government of India thereon confirmed Roba Singh as chief. The case has been very fully considered both by the Government of India and the Secretary of State in Council. I see no reason for reopening the question.

    Maintenance of County Dublin Infirmary.
    MR. CLANCY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state what was the contribution out of the county cess or the poor rate by the governors and governesses, and from any other source, towards the maintenance of the County Dublin Infirmary in the years 1897 and 1898, and what was the proportion of the contribution out of the county cess or poor rate towards the building of that institution.
    (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The sources of income of the Meath Hospital and County Dublin Infirmary for the years ended 31st March, 1897, 1898, and 1901 are shown in the following table:—

    1896–7.

    1897–8.

    1900–1.

    £

    £

    £

    County Presentment

    1,000

    1,000

    1,000

    Contributions from Governors and Subscribers

    1,487

    1,995

    1,622

    All other sources

    3,249

    2,831

    2,992

    Total

    5,736

    5,826

    5,614

    It is stated in the Report of the Dublin Hospitals Commission, which was presented to Parliament in 1887. that the hospital as it was then reported upon, was built at a cost of £12,870, partly contributed by private subscription and partly by grants from the Grand Jury. The latter grants, I understand amounted to £4,788. No grants have since been made from county sources for building purposes. A further sum of £17,393 has been expended on new buildings since the date of the Report, all of which was privately provided.

    Police at Ballynahinch, County Down.
    MR. SLOAN (Belfast, S.): To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant

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    of Ireland if ho can state why a head constable in the town of Ballynahinch, county Down, where there is one sergeant and five constables, is kept at the cost of over a hundred pounds per annum; and if he can say how many towns having a similar population have a head constable in charge.
    (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) It is considered necessary in the public interests to retain a head constable at Ballynahinch. Head constables are stationed in many other towns similiarly circumstanced in respect to population.

    Drill Instructors to Royal Irish Constabulary.
    MR. SLOAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the fact that there are no recruits now in-training at the Royal Irish Constabulary depot, inquiries will be made as to the necessity for further retaining the stall' of drill instructors who hold the temporary rank of acting sergeant, and are occupying positions which might be held by senior constables.
    (Answered, by Mr. Wyadham.) The Inspector-General does not consider that the services of the present staff of drill instructors can be dispensed with. The reserve force at the depot is being augmented by a number of men serving in the country, and the instructors will be employed in putting those men through a course of drill. They will also be required for recruits as soon as recruiting recommences.

    South African War Medal Awards Case of Gunner Kelly.
    MR. COGAN: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the case of Gunner James Kelly, J. Battery, R.H.A. (No. 88,614), who in an engagement at Slingersfontein, Cape Colony, in the late South African war, when a section of his battery was surrounded by Boers and Sergeant A. Watson was shot, ran to his aid under a heavy fire, and was subsequently assisted by Sergeant-Major Cox as well as another man; and whether, seeing that Sergeant-Major Cox has been awarded a distinguished service medal for saving Sergeant Watson's life, he will explain why Gunner Kelly has been
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    passed over and no notice taken of his action, and will he be awarded a similar medal to that given to Sergeant-Major Cox.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Arnold-Forster.) The name of Gunner James Kelly, J Battery, R.H.A., was not brought to Lord Roberts' notice for gallant conduct. Battery Sergeant-Major Cocks was awarded the distinguished conduct medal for good work and not for any specific act of gallantry. I am afraid, therefore, that I am not in a position to take any further steps in the matter.

    Evidence of Commission of Inquiry into Transvaal Mines Department.
    MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will place in the-Library of the House copies of the Report and Evidence of the Commission appointed in the Transvaal in the autumn of 1903, at the instance of the Legislative Council, to inquire into the management of the Mines Department by Mr. Wybergh.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) I have communicated with Lord Milner on the subject of the Question.

    Chinese labour in South Africa Payments to Chinese Government.
    MR. DUNCAN: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will say whether any payment will be made to the Chinese Government by an importer of labourers into South Africa, either in the form of payment for licence or capitation grant on each enlisted labourer.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) I am not in a position to make any definite statement on this matter pending negotiation, now in progress, with the Colonial Government on the regulations.

    Wilby Town Estates, Suffolk.
    MR. STEVENSON: To ask the Parliamentary Charity Commissioner when the last scheme relating to the Wilby Town Estates, Suffolk, was sealed, and whether a copy was sent in due form to each of the persons interested.
    (Answered by Mr. Griffith-Boscawen.) The last scheme was sealed on the 26th

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    January, 1869, after due notice in compliance with the provisions of the Charitable Trusts Acts. On the 20th January, 1903, an order under the Board of Education Act, 1899, was sealed determining in accordance with the existing trusts the part of the endowment of the charity which is held for educational purposes. No notice of the proposal to make such an order is required by the Act to be given to persons interested, but the Commissioners, in accordance with their practice in such cases, sent a draft of the order to the trustees of the charity, and a draft was also sent to the parish council of Wilby at the request of the council.

  QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

    Proposed Royal Naval Reserve Station in Ross-shire.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he will state when it is proposed to proceed with the establishment of a Royal Naval Reserve Station at Ullapool, Ross-shire.
    THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. PRETYMAN,): The establishment of this station is necessarily delayed pending the result of negotiations for a satisfactory site, which are at present in progress.

    "Centurion" Gun Sights.
    MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty, are the old sights of the "Centurion," which are correct, unfit for use in action because the man using them and firing the gun is 10 feet from the training and elevating gear, and is therefore unable to lay the gun himself; are the new telescopic sights of the ship, intended for use in action, also faulty, in consequence of their defective connection with the gun; did the captain of the "Excellent" refuse to pass all the turret sights, and declare the ship unfit to leave Portsmouth; is he aware that the telescopic sights can only be rectified by bringing the "Centurion" home and fitting new sights; and when do the Admiralty propose to do this.
    MR. PRETYMAN: The captain of the "Excellent" does not pass sights, he only makes a report to the Admiralty, with whom the decision rests. The remaining
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    points raised in the Question are dealt with in Lord Selborne's letter to the hon. Member for Portsmouth, published in the Press yesterday.
    MR. GIBSON BOWLES: But did the captain of the "Excellent" report the sights faulty and the ships therefore unfit to leave Portsmouth?
    MR. PRETYMAN: The captain of the "Excellent" makes a report generally to the Admiralty on all points. I cannot make public any confidential reports.

    Treatment of Sick and Wounded Soldiers
    DR. MACNAMARA: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he can submit to the House a statement showing how far the general recommendations of the Royal Commission on the Care and Treatment of the Sick and Wounded during the South African Campaign either have been carried out or are still under consideration with a view to adoption.
    THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR OFFICE (Mr. BROMLEY DAVENPORT,): A detailed explanation of all action taken would involve the preparation of a very lengthy report. The following brief statement will, however, I think, sufficiently show what has been done, taking the recommendations of the Commission seriatim: (1) The establishment of officers has been increased by 100. The Royal Army Medical Corps has been increased by 400 men. (2) The supply of surgeons and trained orderlies in the event of a great war is now receiving careful consideration. The equipment provided by the Mowatt reserves for three Army Corps, one cavalry division, and line of communication troops will, it is hoped, be quite complete by the middle of 1904. (3) The supply of candidates is now sufficient and the quality most satisfactory. A college has been established in London, through which all captains must pass before promotion. Promotion to the higher ranks will be by selection, and all must attain a high standard of qualification. Acceleration in promotion from captain to major can now be obtained by officers who show special merit at examination. Also special professional attainments will be recognised by appointment to special posts carrying

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    extra pay. (4) The formation of Queen Alexandra's Imperial Military Nursing Service provides for a great increase in the establishment of women nurses. (5) Sanitary officers have already been, and are still being, appointed to important commands. (6) A new and improved pattern of ambulance wagon has been adopted. (7) Experiments are now in progress having for their object the provision of a tent of improved pattern and more suitable for sick and wounded.

    Weekly Cost of British Forces in South Africa.
    MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he will state what is the cost per week of the military force now in South Africa.
    MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORT: The total cost of the force now in South Africa may be taken at £80,000 a week.

    Accidents in Transvaal Mines
    MR. BAYLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can give the percentage of accidents and of deaths from accidents, and also the death rate from other causes, among the natives employed on the gold mines in South Africa during the last two years.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. LYTTELTON,): The Transvaal Mining Engineers report for the year ended 30th June, 1903, gives the following figures as to accidents. For year 1901–1' average number of coloured persons employed on gold mines 18,837, number killed sixty-five, number injured 106. For the year 1902–3 average number employed 43,875, number killed 172, number injured 300. The death rate from all causes on the Witwatersrand mines is given at 57·7 per 1,000 per annum, and from sickness alone at 54·5 per 1,000 per annum for the period November, 1902—April, 1903, on page 389 of Cd. 1897.
    MR. MARKHAM: Will the right hon. Gen tie-man say if it is not the fact that the mortality in some districts in the Transvaal is as high as 100 per 1,000, and will he give instructions to Lord Milner that
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    natives brought from tropical districts shall not be employed on the high slopes?
    MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: Does the mortality, among the British Central Africa natives, of 280 per 1,000 still continue?
    MR. JOHN BURNS: Will the right hon. Gentleman at his leisure give a return of the industrial mortality of the last two or three years in a Paper similar to that he gave about six weeks ago?
    MR. LY'TTELTON: If my hon. friend will move for it I will consider it.
    MR. JOHN BURNS: I would prefer to leave that to the hon. Gentleman who moved for the other one.
    MR. LOUGH (Islington, W.): Is the right hon. Gentleman taking any steps himself in regard to this mortality.
    MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! This is becoming a debate. It does not arise out of the Question on the Paper.

    Transvaal Labour Ordinance.
    MR. HUMPHREY'S-OWEN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether Chinese women and children who accompany indentured Chinese labourers in the Transvaal will be subjected to the same restrictions as to residence and otherwise as those labourers.
    MR. LYTTELTON: I would refer the hon. Member to Clause 33 (1) of the Ordinance in Cd. 1898.
    DR. MAC NAMARA: May I ask whether the statement in the Question as to the women and children accompanying indentured Chinese labourers is correct. Will they be permitted to accompany the labourers?
    MR. LYTTELTON: I do not quite follow the hon. Member. The Question is whether Chinese women and children who accompany indentured Chinese labourers in the Transvaal will be subjected to the same restrictions as the labourers. That supposes a condition of things in which they do accompany them.

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    It may also suppose a condition of things in which they may follow them.
    DR. MACNAMARA: My Question is whether the suggestion in the Question that the Chinese women and children may accompany them is correct.
    MR. LYTTELTON: They may or may not. The Chinese labourer may desire to bring his wife and children with him, or he may desire to see for himself what the conditions are, and bring his wife out afterwards.
    DR. MACNAMARA: Then I will ask whether, if he desires that his wife and children shall accompany him. it will be possible for them to do so.
    MR. SPEAKER: This does not arise out of the Question.
    MR. WHTTLEY: Will the women and children be subject to the same rigid restrictions as the labourers themselves.
    MR. LYTTELTON: I have answered that Question once.
    MR. WHITLEY: No——
    MR. SPEAKER: The Question on the Paper has been answered.

    Transvaal Magistracy.
    MR. OSMOND WILLIAMS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if his attention has been drawn to the utterance of the Chief Justice in the Supreme Court of the Transvaal on 21st October last, as to the want of knowledge shown by magistrates of the elementary principles of law, and the results thereby entailed; and whether he proposes taking any action in the matter.
    MR. LYTTELTON: I am aware that the Chief Justice made observations on some of the magistrates of the nature referred to. I understand that changes are to be made in the method of appointing magistrates, with the object of securing a higher standard of legal knowledge. It must be remembered, however, that in the Transvaal the duties of a magistrate are administrative as well as judicial.

    Plague Prevention at Hong-Kong.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has yet received from the Governor of Hong-Kong a report relative to Haffkine's plague prophylactic; and. if so, will he state when the system of inoculation was brought into operation in Hong-Kong, the number of persons inoculated, and how many have succumbed to plague.
    MR. LYTTELTON: In accordance with the promise given last July, the Governor was asked to embody the information desired in his next general report on plague, and, no report having been received, he has been reminded by telegraph.

    Suez Canal Navigation in War Times.
    LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICE: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if His Majesty's Government still adhere to the opinion that the Convention between the Powers in regard to the Suez Canal, which was signed at Constantinople on the '29th October, 1888, and the ratifications whereof were deposited at Constantinople on the 22nd October, 1888, cannot be brought into practical operation, as was stated by Mr. Curzon on the 12th July, 1898, owing to the reserves made on behalf of Her Majesty's Government by the British delegates at the Suez Canal Commission in Paris, 1885, which were renewed by Lord Salisbury and communicated to the Powers in 1887; and if any communications have taken place between the Powers in regard to these reserves since 1898; and, if the Convention is not operative, if it is to be understood that His Majesty's Government adhere to the opinions embodied in Lord Derby's despatch of 6th May, 1877, written at the time of the Russo-Turkish war, in regard to the principles which regulate the navigation through the Suez Ca al in time of war.
    THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Earl PERCY,): The position has undergone no alteration since the answer was given to which the hon. Member refers. His Majesty's Government adhere to the opinions embodied in Lord Derby's note to the Russian Ambassador of 6th May, 1877, with regard to the principles which

    245
    should govern the navigation of the Canal in time of war, and consider that the rules laid down in Articles 1 to 6 of the Convention are in accordance with those principles. Regulations designed to give effect to the second paragraph of Article 4 were issued by the Egyptian Government on the 10th instant.
    MR. GIBSON BOWLES: Can the noble Lord explain how it was that the Government agreed to sign in 1888 a Convention they declared against in advance in 1887?
    KARL PERCY: I must ask for notice of that Question.

    Shanghai Nanking Railway.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, having regard to the fact that the preliminary agreement for the construction of the Canton-Kowloon Railway was signed on the 28th March, 1898, and that the construction of the line is contingent on arrangements being made for financing the Shanghai-Nanking Railway, will he state the amount required for the construction of the latter line, and when the British and Chinese Corporation expect to be in a position to proceed with the work of construction.
    EARL PERCY: I understand that it is estimated that the cost of the Shanghai-Nanking Railway, including the land required, will be £3,250,000. I regret that I am not at present in a position to answer the second part of the hon. Member's Question.

    Fiscal Retaliation Abroad.
    SIR EDGAR VINCENT: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the promised reports upon the results of retaliation between certain Foreign Powers have been received; and whether there would be any objection to their publication in full.
    EARL PERCY: The reports have already been laid. They are printed in full.

    Export of China and Ball Clays.
    MR. COGHILL: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Ex-
    246
    chequer if he has considered the advisability of imposing a duty on the export of china and ball clays from this country.
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN, Worcestershire, E.): Yes, Sir, I looked into this question recently. The export of china and ball clays, though increasing, does not reach half a million tons a year, and the revenue derivable from even a high ad valorem export duty would be insignificant. But the course of the export figures shall be watched.

    Estate Duty Office.
    MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer how many additional officers have been added to the staff of the Estate Duty Office during the present financial year, when were they authorised by the Treasury, when did the new officers commence their duties, and are they still engaged on them: what additional expenditure, if any, has been authorised during the present financial year for the working of this department; have any changes been made in the methods of collecting the Estate Duty, if so, what are those changes, have they been successful, and are they still in operation.
    MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Sixty-one additional officers, thirteen of whom are temporary boy clerks, have been added to the staff of the Estate Duty Office during the present financial year by the authority of the Treasury, dated 21st October, 1903. The new officers, with the exception of ten who have not yet arrived, commenced their duties at various dates in the months of December and January, and are still engaged on them. No additional expenditure, except out of savings which have been affected out of the Vote for the Inland Revenue Department., has been authorised during the current year for the working of this office. In connection with the assessment of death duties generally, certain changes have recently been made in the distribution of business and in the method of keeping the records of it. It would not be possible to explain these changes within the limits of the answer to a Question, but it may be said that they have been adopted in pursuance of the recommendation of a Committee which

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    sat in 1898–99, and which was presided over by the right hon. Member for Haddingtonshire. The changes only came into operation on 1st January, and it is too soon yet to pass a judgment upon their effect, but there is every reason to expect that they will be successful.

    Corn Tax.
    MR. BLACK: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Government is to re-impose the corn tax of last year.
    MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I have no such intention at present.

    Boy Smokers.
    DR. MACNAMARA: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the increase in cigarette smoking amongst boys; and whether, in view of the effects of this practice, he will consider the desirability of taking steps to prohibit smoking by boys in Government employment, to invite the co-operation of employers of juvenile labour in putting down the practice, and to call the attention of all school authorities to the matter through the agency of the Board of Education.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. AKERS-DOUGLAS,): I have no special information on this subject, nor have I any powers to take action with regard to it. I am disposed to think that the public attention which is, very rightly, being drawn to the question is the most effective influence in the direction desired by the hon. Member. I may point out that there is a Committee on Physical Deterioration now sitting, and I understand that the subject of the hon. Member's Question is among those which they will consider.

    Trades Union Law.
    LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if the Commission appointed to consider the effect of certain legal decisions on the law relating to trades unions has met; how many meetings
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    have yet been held; and, when the Commission may be expected to report.
    MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: I can only repeat the answer which I gave on behalf of the First Lord of the Treasury to a similar Question by the hon. Member for the Cleveland Division last Tuesday week,† viz., that the Commission has at present held only private sittings, but will very shortly meet to take evidence, and that it is impossible to say when the Report will be presented. I have nothing to add to this.

    Visisection.
    MR. OSMOND WILLIAMS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that Professor Starling, in giving evidence in the case of Bayliss v. Coleridge, stated on the 13th November, 1903, that on the 2nd February, 1903, he performed an operation on a brown dog, and, instead of killing the dog as provided by the Cruelty to Animals Act, 1876, handed it to Mr. Bayliss for another experiment; and, if so, whether, in view of Section 14 of this Act, he proposes to take any action.
    MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: I considered most carefully all the facts of this case both before and at the time of the Action referred to and I came to the conclusion, which I see no reason to vary, that I was not called upon to take action.
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that since 1876 no prosecution for vivisection has been instituted?

    Brussels Sugar Convention.
    SIR JOHN LENG: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether, having regard to the fact that the Permanent Commission established under the Brussels Sugar Convention has decided that the limitation of the surtax laid down in Article III. of the Convention does not apply to sugared products, any effort is being made by the Government to alter this decision or to make arrangements with the individual cosignatory Powers to secure a reduction of
    † See (4) Debates, cxxix, 733.

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    their tariffs in favour of British-made sugared products.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR,): Questions affecting the position of sugared products will be considered at the next meeting of the Permanent Commission in March, and. pending the result of that discussion, I think it would be inexpedient to make any statement on the subject.

    Statistics of Unemployed Labour.
    SIR EDGAR VINCENT: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether information regarding the number of unemployed in foreign countries as compared with the number in Great Britain could be obtained for the instruction of this House; and whether he could furnish returns showing the comparative frequency and comparative severity of fluctuations in the demand for skilled and unskilled labour in protectionist and free-trade countries.
    MR. GERALD BALFOUR: It is quite impossible to obtain statistics regarding the number of unemployed in foreign countries on a basis which would enable sound comparisons to be made with the figures for this country published by the Labour Department of the Board of Trade. I hope, however, to lay on the Table of the House a Return embodying such information as is available with regard to fluctuations of employment both in this and other countries.

    Postal Distribution of Lottery Circulars
    MR. ALEXANDER CROSS: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the Post Office is being employed, even more largely than formerly, as a means of distributing gambling lottery circulars setting out advantages and offering inducements to purchase lottery tickets; and whether he is willing to issue instructions that all batches of sealed circulars coming from persons whose address in this country is not printed on the outside of the envelope, shall not be received for pre-payment of postage until precautions have been adopted, by opening some of them, to ascertain that they do not contain improper solicitations to gamble.
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    And may I further ask whether in the event of his being unable to adopt the suggestion embodied in my Question, the noble Lord will consider the possibility of adopting other means.
    THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Lord STANLEY,): I am unable to say whether the Post Office is more largely used than formerly for the purpose of distributing lottery circulars Many such circulars are doubtless posted in bulk at post offices in this country, but there is nothing on the covers to indicate their nature, and I have no power to open closed letters. I may point out, moreover, that even if the action suggested by the hon. Member could be taken it would not prevent lottery circulars from being sent through the post, seeing that the senders would no doubt cease to post the packets in bulk, and would simply affix stamps and post them in the ordinary way. With regard to the further Question of my hon. friend I have to say that if I could find any method by which I could stop these lottery and betting circulars, nothing would give me greater pleasure.

    Caersws Postal Arrangements.
    MR. HUMPHREYS-OWEN: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he is now able to give a favourable answer to the application of the Parish Council of Llanwnog, Montgomery-shire, for a morning despatch of letters from the village of Caersws in that parish.
    LORD STANLEY: I regret that, in view of the high cost of the present service as compared with the amount of correspondence, I should not be justified in sanctioning the additional expense which would attend the establishment of the morning despatch of letters asked for.

    Illegal Trawling off the Island of Lewis.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether the light keepers at Tiumpan Head, Island of Lewis, recorded any cases of illegal trawling in Broad Bay during the past year: and. if so, will he state the number, and in how many cases prosecutions have taken place.
    THE LORD-ADVOCATE (Mr. SCOTT DICKSON,): Perhaps my hon. friend will allow me to answer.

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    There have been during the last year three cases of illegal trawling observed by the lighthouse keepers of Tiumpan Head, all of these eases have been prosecuted, two of which have led to convictions and in the third, which was also reported by the Coastguard, the trial has not as yet taken place.

    Artificial Manures in Ireland.
    MR. FFRENCH: I beg to ask the hon. Member for Huntington shire, as representing the Board of Agriculture, whether any amendment will be made or is in contemplation in the Fertilizers and Feeding Stuffs Act of 1893, to insure that purchases of artificial manures in Ireland are of the quality represented to them: whether he is aware that owing to the absence of analysis or other certified guarantee, nitrogen is frequently put down as ammonia or sulphate of ammonia, whereas one part of nitrogen equals 4·7 parts of sulphate of ammonia; that equally fraudulent statements are made regarding potash, potash salts, and phosphates, to the detriment of the purchaser; and whether, with a view to preventing fraud on the purchaser, the analysis of each bag sold will in future be ordered to be stamped or printed on each bag; that the police or other inspector empowered by the county council shall be authorised to take samples in the usual way for submission to the county analyst; and that, as regards feeding stuffs, merchants will be obliged to give the exact analytical composition of these goods, failure to stand analytical test subsequently to be constituted an offence punishable in a court of summary jurisdiction, or can he hold out any hope of amendment of the law in these directions.
    THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM,): At my hon. friend's request I will reply to this Question. The question of amending the Act in so far as it applies to Ireland is now under consideration, and the suggestions of the hon. Member will not be lost; sight of.
    MR. FFEHNCHasked if there was any objection to having analyses made of artificial manures in Ireland as required by Act of Parliament in England?
    MR. WYNDHAM: I have said that the whole matter is under consideration,
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    and the hon. Member's suggestion will not be lost sight of.

    Ennistymon Guardians and the Police.
    MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to a resolution passed by the Ennistymon guardians in which it is asked by what authority Sergeants Coyne, Brennan, and Breden, of the Royal Irish Constabulary, questioned members of the clothing committee as to their reasons for rejecting clothing supplied by a contractor to the workhouse; and whether he will say by what authority the police acted in this matter.
    MR. WYNDHAM: My attention has been directed to the resolution in question. I am inquiring into the matter.
    MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I will repeat the Question this day week.

    Iveagh-Pirrie Motor car Service.
    MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will take care that in any arrangements under the Iveagh-Pirrie motor-car service scheme consideration will be paid to the advisability of connecting Ballyvaughan with Oranmore, and Ballyvaughan with Lisdoonvarna and other districts in the county Clare, where the means of communication are at present inconvenient and unfavourable to local industry.
    MR. WYNDHAM: Yes, Sir, I will see that these proposals are considered. They are not, however, comprised among the schemes to be initiated in the first instance.

    Dublin, Wicklow, and Wexford Shillelagh Extension Act.
    MR. T. W. RUSSELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Mr. John Henry Ryan, C.E., Dublin, was appointed by the Commissioners of Public Works as arbitrator under the Dublin, Wicklow, and Wexford Shillelagh Extension Act; that, under the Act passed in 1897, the time for acquiring land compulsorily was limited to a period of five years; and

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    that repeated sittings have been held with expense to the parties; and whether he will state what is the cause of the delay in the publication of the final award.
    MR. WYNDHAM: Mr. Ryan was appointed arbitrator in July, 1900. The railway company did not intimate to him their desire to proceed with his inquiries until November. 1902. A draft sectional award was lodged by the arbitrator in June, 1903, and the final award was lodged yesterday. The delay has been caused by the necessity of recasting claims; by repeated adjournments to meet the convenience of the parties, and by the complicated nature of the case.

    Granard Union—Surcharges on Guardians.
    MR. J. P. FARRELLI beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether any application has been made to the Local Government Board to remit a surcharge of £4 11s. on three rural district councillors of Granard Union has been received; and, if so, whether, having regard to the fact that this money was paid bonâfide by the guardians in the same way in which they had paid similar sums for many years, he will recommend the Board to remit the surcharge.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The application is under consideration. A decision cannot be taken until further information, which has been called for, is before the Board.

    Land Purchase in County Longford—John Kenny's Holding.
    MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will direct the attention of the Estate Commissioners to the case of John Kenny, Glannagh, county Longford, whose immediate landlord is willing to sell to him but cannot do so in consequence of the attitude of the head landlord; and whether he will direct the Estate Commissioners to purchase the entire holding, both of the middle landlord and tenant, with a view to resale to the latter.
    MR. WYNDHAM: No application has been made to the Commissioners on
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    behalf of John Kenny, or of the middleman or head landlord. In the absence of all information as to the nature of the interests of the immediate landlord and head landlord it is impossible to say which course is proper to be adopted.
    MR. FLAVIN: Will the matter be considered by the Estates Commissioners?
    MR. WYNDHAM: Yes, when the conditions have been fulfilled. There is some technical point involved.

    Mrs McGibney's Farm.
    MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the case of Mrs. McGibney. Ballinacross, Granard, whose evicted farm has been taken by the sub-sheriff of county Longford; and, if so, will he explain under what authority the sub-sheriff, in the execution of his duty, bought in this farm and deprived the evicted tenant of it, and direct the attention of the Estate Commissioners to this case with a view to arranging through them for a resale to the evicted tenant.
    MR. WYNDHAM: I understand that this holding was let in the ordinary way to Mr. Robinson, who is sub-sheriff, but that he did not use his powers to obtain possession. Mrs. McGibney and her son are both dead; her daughter survives. In the absence of information as to whether the landlord proposes to sell the estate on which the evicted holding is situate, it is not possible to say whether the Commissioners have power to deal with the matter. If an application be made to them it will, of course, be considered.
    MR. J. P. FARRELL: Have you no power to restrain the sub-sheriff from taking possession?
    [No answer was returned.]

    Arklow Pier and Harbour
    MR. COGAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Arklow Pier and Harbour

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    was constructed by the Board of Public Works, that the people of Arklow and adjoining baronies guaranteed the repayment of the cost of its construction, that from an engineering point of view it shortly afterwards proved to be unsuited to its original purpose, and that for many months past navigation has been impossible, imposing loss and suffering upon the fishing population and threatening the chief industries of the town and district with extinction; and whether, seeing that the Board's engineer insisted on building the harbour on its present plan in opposition to the advice and warning of the people of Arklow, and that the Harbour Board and other local bodies have for years been calling upon the Government to remedy the existing state of things, he will now take the necessary steps to put an end to them and safeguard public interests in this harbour.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The existing harbour was constructed by the Board of Works to replace one previously built by local effort, and which was destroyed by the sea in 1877. The cost was defrayed by loans amounting to £23,500, and by free Government grants amounting to £18,500. The plan of the harbour works was favourably reported on by two independent engineers, a copy of whose report was presented to Parliament in 1886. The works were successful in keeping the harbour practically clear of sand from 1887, the date of their completion, until last year, when, as a result of heavy gales, a sand bar was formed at the entrance to the. harbour. An engineer of the Board of Works has recently surveyed the harbour, and his report is about to be communicated to the Harbour Commissioners.
    MR. JOHN REDMOND: Is the statement correct that this harbour was built on a plan opposed by the local people, who, now it has gone wrong, are told they must remedy it?
    MR. WYNDHAM: Until I have the report I can express no opinion.
    MB. JOHN REDMOND: It is a very bad case. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will do something.

    Dublin Police Commissioner and the University Commission.
    MR. SLOAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will explain under what circumstances the present Commissioner of the Dublin Metropolitan Police was permitted to give evidence before the recent University Commission in support of a Roman Catholic University for Ireland, and if such action is in accordance with the police regulations.
    MR. WYNDHAM: Sir John Ross, of Bladensburg, is a member of the Senate of the Royal University of Ireland, and it was in this capacity he gave evidence before the Royal Commission. He was not prohibited by the police regulations from appearing as a witness before the Royal Commission.

    Irish Development Grant.
    MR. JOHN REDMOND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will make any statement of his intentions as to the purposes for which the Irish Development Grant Fund is to be used before the Estimate for that purpose is presented; and whether he intends to consult the views of Irish representatives upon the subject.
    MR. WYNDHAM: I should be glad to consult the views of the Irish Members, both on the total amount with which it may be prudent to charge the Development Grant during the ensuing financial year, and on the allocation of the grant within the limits which prudence may suggest.
    MR. JOHN REDMOND: Will the right hon. Gentleman make some statement before the Estimate is actually drawn up?
    MR. WYNDHAM: It is rather hard on me to ask for a promise of that kind. I will see what can be done.

    Irish Equivalent Grant.
    MR. THOMAS O'DONNELLI beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state how many district, urban, and county councils in Ireland have passed

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    resolutions demanding that the equivalent grant be devoted in Ireland, as in England, to primary education.
    MR. WYNDHAM: Resolutions have been received at the Castle from eight county councils, twelve urban and thirty two rural district councils.

    Irish National School Assistant Teachers.
    MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I bog to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the promise made last year, that the average required for the service of an assistant teacher in an Irish National School would be reduced from sixty to fifty, has been carried out.
    MR. WYNDHAM: I replied to a similar Question on the subject yesterday,† put by the hon. Member for North Cork.

    Land Purchase in Kerry.
    MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland how many estates have been sold in Kerry under the Land Act of 1903, how many tenants are affected, what is the total price paid.
    MR. WYNDHAM: Applications have been filed in the Estates Commissioners' Office for sales by the landlord to the tenants direct, in the cases of three estates. The total purchase money is £11,960. Application has also been made to the Commissioners to purchase an estate, with 173 tenants under Section 6 of the Act.
    MR. FLAVIN: Can the right hon. Gentleman give the names of the landlords in these three cases?
    MR. WYNDHAM: I have not that information.
    MR. MURPHY: Will the right hon. Gentleman say if the money mentioned by him includes the purchase money of the evicted farms at Cragg, county Kerry, by the Congested Districts Board, about which an undertaking was given to me by the Board that nothing
    † See page 19.
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    further should be done in the matter until the right hon. Gentleman saw me.
    MR. WYNDHAM: I am in communication with the Under-Secretary as to the case, and when I hear from him I will communicate with the hon. Member.
    MR. MURPHYexpressed a hope that the delay would not impair the position of the evicted tenants. A promise was given me before the opening of Parliament——
    MR. SPEAKER: Order, order ! We cannot go into that now. The right hon. Gentleman has promised to communicate with the hon. Member.

    Land Purchase in Galway.
    MR. ROCHEI beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been directed to the correspondence which has taken place between M. G. Comyn Kenny and Rev. Thomas Bowes, Laurencetown, county Galway, relative to the division and sale of the grass farm (Kill) of 300 acres I.P. M., wherein Mr. Kenny states he has been in communication with the Estates Commissioners, who refuse to be furnished with a map showing the proposed holdings, with the names and description of the proposed tenants; is he aware that posters or circulars have been distributed in the district stating that Mr. Kenny will mark out the bounds as far as possible to suit the requirements of the people; that the proposal is to let the divisions in 25-acre lots at 30s. per acre rent, a fine of £150 to be paid on entering into possession, the tenanted holdings to be then sold under the Purchase Act of last year; and if he will say whether the Estates Commissioners are recommending the landlords generally to adopt such arrangements for the division and sale of grass farms; and whether they have sanctioned Mr. Kenny's action.
    ME. WYNDHAM: There has been no correspondence between Dr. Kenny and the Commissioners in this matter. I am informed, however, that he had an interview with one of the Commissioners, who suggested to him that if he submitted a map and details of the proposed division of the land they

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    would be considered. He has not yet done so. The Commissioners have no knowledge of the matters alluded to in the placard, beyond what is alleged in the Question.
    MR. KILBRIDEasked as to a letter stating that the Estates Commissioners had power to advance money at 3¼ per cent. for the purpose of building dwelling-houses and making other improvements on the land.
    MR. WYNDHAMprotested that he could not be expected to conduct the business of the Estates Commissioners Office by means of Question and answer across the floor of the House. He suggested some discrepancy had arisen by reason of the use of certain words.

    Presidents of the Queen's Colleges.
    MR. HAYDEN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will state the salaries of the Presidents of the Queen's Colleges in Cork, Galway, and Belfast, respectively; what are the duties of these gentlemen; whether their positions involve residence in these cities; and whether, as a matter of fact, they reside during all or a portion of the year at the places named, and, if only a portion of the year, whether he will state the period of residence each year.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The salary (£800) and the duties of the President of each of these colleges, are prescribed by the College Charters, a copy of which I have forwarded to the hon. Member. There is no express statutory requirement in respect to residence on the part of the President, who is responsible for the general conduct of affairs in the college. I have no information on the last part of the Question, but will endeavour to obtain it.

    Lower Bann River.
    MR. MACVEAGH (Down, S.): I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether any steps have been taken since last session, or are proposed to be taken during the present session, with a view to transferring the control of the Lower Bann River, county
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    Down, from the Coleraine district to the Dundalk district.
    MR. WYNDHAM: There is no proposal before the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction to transfer the control of the Lower Bann to the Dundalk Board of Conservators of Fisheries. I am inquiring whether such a transfer could be effected in the absence of legislation such as was introduced by me in 1902, and will communicate further with the hon. Member on the subject.

    Castle of Ardandra, County Longford.
    MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he will direct an inquiry to be made into the present condition of the ruins of the ancient Castle of Ardandra, county Longford, with a view to their restoration and protection.
    THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY (Mr. VICTOR CAVENDISH,): No such castle is known to the Commissioners of Public Works, Ireland. If the hon. Member will indicate the locality more precisely I shall be glad to have inquiry made.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Can the Home Secretary state what will be the course of business next week?
MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: Assuming the debate on the Address to be concluded this evening, as I hope, it is proposed on Monday to take the Army, on Tuesday the Navy, and on Wednesday the Civil Service Supplementary Estimates.

ELECTRIC LIGHTING (LONDON) BILL.
Ordered, "That the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills do examine the Electric Lighting (London) Bill, with respect to compliance with the Standing Orders relative to Private Bills."—(Mr. Gerald Balfour.)
NEW BILLS.

  HOUSE-LETTING (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  "To deal with the system of House-letting in the boroughs of Scotland,"

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  presented by Mr. Alexander Cross; supported by Mr. T. W. Russell and Sir John Leng; to be read a second time upon Tuesday, 22nd March, and to be printed. [Bill 79.]

  JURORS EXPENSES BILL.
  "To provide for the Payment of the Expenses of Jurors attending assizes and quarter sessions," presented by Mr. Lloyd-Morgan; supported by Mr. Wharton, Mr. Abel Thomas, and Mr. John Hutton; to be read a second time upon Tuesday, 22nd March, and to be printed. [Bill 77.]
  MORTGAGE OF PREMISES BILL.
  "To amend the Law in regard to the Mortgaging of Premises containing Trade Machinery," presented by Sir William Holland; supported by Mr. Crombie and Mr. Parkes; to be read a second time upon Tuesday, 22nd March, and to be printed. [Bill 78.]
  CANAL TRAFFIC BILL.
  "To provide for the better regulation of Canal Traffic,"presented by Sir William Holland; supported by Sir John Brunner, Mr. Crombie, Mr. Emmott, Mr. Field, Mr. Charles Hobhouse, Sir Alfred Hickman, Mr. Parkes, Mr. Joseph Walton, Mr. J. H. Whitley, and Mr. Wolff; to be read a second time upon Tuesday, 22nd March, and to be printed. [Bill 79.]
  BILLS OF EXCHANGE BILL.
  "To provide for the registration of dishonoured Bills of Exchange, and to allow summary judgment thereon," presented by Sir William Holland; supported by Mr. Crombie and Mr. Parkes; to be read a second time upon Tuesday, 22nd March, and to be printed. [Bill 80.]
  PROVISIONAL ORDER (MARRIAGES) BILL.
  "To enable Provisional Orders to be made for removing any invalidity or doubt attaching to marriages by reason of some informality," presented by Mr. Cochrane; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 81.]

  POLICE (SUPERANNUATION) BILL.
  "To amend the Police Act, 1890, with respect to the Pensions of Constables who
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  continue to serve after they have become entitled to a Pension," presented by Mr. Cochrane; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 82.]

  RATING OF MACHINERY BILL.
  "To amend the Law relating to the Rating of Hereditaments containing Machinery," presented by Mr. Chapman; supported by Sir Edward Strachey, Sir William Houldsworth, Sir John Doring-ton, Mr. Cawley, Sir William Tomlinson Mr. Emmott, and Colonel Royds; to be read a second time upon Friday, 18th March, and to be printed. [Bill 83.]
  SCHOOL BOARD ELECTORATE (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  "To admit to the School Board Electorate of Scotland persons entitled to vote for the County Council Election," presented by Mr. Weir; supported by Mr. Leveson-Gower, Mr. Ainsworth, Mr. Cathcart Wason, Mr. John Dewar, Mr Bignold, Mr. Harmsworth, and Mr. Caldwell; to be read a second time upon Tuesday, 15th March, and to be printed, [Bill 84.]
  CROFTERS' HOLDINGS (SCOTLAND) ACT (1886) AMENDMENT BILL.
  "To amend The Crofters' Holdings (Scotland) Act, 1886," presented by Mr. Weir; supported by Mr. John Dewar, Mr. Leveson-Gower, Mr. Cathcart Wason, Mr. Bignold, Mr. Harmsworth, Mr. Ainsworth, and Mr. Caldwell: to be read a second time upon Tuesday, 15th March, and to be printed. [Bill 85.]
  PENAL SERVITUDE BILL.
  "To amend the Law relating to Penal Servitude in England and Wales," presented by Mr. Secretary Akers Douglas; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 86.]

  KING'S SPEECH (MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS).
  [THIRTEENTH DAY.]
  Order read, for resuming adjourned debate on Main Question [2nd February], "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, as followeth:—
  "Most Gracious Sovereign,—
  "We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United

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  Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament."—(Mr. Hardy.)
  Question again proposed.
  Amendment proposed—
  MR. P. A. McHUCHfirst expressed his regret that the task of moving the Amendment had not fallen to the lot of some Member more accustomed to take part in the proceedings of the House, and more competent to deal with the complex matters with which the Amendment was concerned, but he found consolation in the fact that any defect on his part in the discharge of his duty would be fully compensated for by those who would follow him. He was aware that the subject matter of the Amendment was not one which appealed to the majority of Members, many of whom considered that the raising of the question at this moment was inopportune and unnecessary. But if the House should feel aggrieved at their raising the question at the present time, he could only point out that the fault did not lie with them. They were there against their will, and the Chief Secretary had told them that they were there on a footing of political equality, having equal claims with other Parties on the time of the House. They might differ from the Chief Secretary in regard to the equality of their position, but one thing was certain, and that was that, as long as they were there, they would avail themselves of every opportunity on which they could seize in order to claim redress for the grievances under which those whom they represented were suffering. They believed it to be their duty, so far as they could to take advantage of the position in which they found themselves, and accordingly they brought forward their Amendment that day, seeing that it involved matters of the most vital and pressing importance to their constituents.
  The Chief Secretary, in a speech which he delivered on the 3rd February in reply to the hon. Member for Waterford, said that while he would introduce a Bill amending the Land Purchase Act of last session he would not re-open the Irish land question. That was not an accurate way of describing the situation. They did not ask the
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  right hon. Gentleman to re-open the Irish Land Question, but the purpose of their Amendment was to show the House and the Chief Secretary that he had never closed it. It had been found that the language of the Land Purchase Act of last year was ambiguous with regard to the payment of the bonus, and when the Chief Secretary referred to that matter he was chivalrous enough to take upon himself the sole responsibility for the defective phraseology of the Bill. They, however, knew where the responsibility rested. The right hon. Gentleman said—
  "I am honourably bound to see that the intention of Parliament is carried out in regard to the bonus."
  This was an important statement, for if the right hon. Gentleman was honourably bound to carry out the intentions of Parliament with regard to the payment of the bonus to the limited or other owners in Ireland, he was also honourably bound to carry out the intentions of Parliament in regard to matters of infinitely greater importance. The intention of Parliament was not limited to the granting of huge gifts to limited or to absolute owners, or indeed to any class of owner in Ireland. It was extended to the questions of fair price, of congestion, and of the evicted tenants. In regard to these matters he and his colleagues said that the intentions of Parliament had not been, and could not be, carried out under the Act as it stood, and that the Act must be amended on the lines indicated in the Amendment he was proposing. He would like to say, for himself, that he did not personally approach the discussion of this question in any contentious spirit; he did not approach it in any spirit of mere faultfinding. No one would have been better pleased than he if the realisation of the hopes engendered under auspicious circumstances last year had made the present discussion unnecessary. He had no desire to minimise the praise of, or in the slightest degree detract from, the reputation of the Chief Secretary for his conduct in charge of the Bill of last year, but they believed that the praise would be increased and his reputation would be enhanced, if by the acceptance of their proposal the right hon. Gentleman gave effect to the intentions of Parliament. Those intentions, in passing the Bill last year, were directed

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  to three objects—first, to bring about a transfer of the ownership of the land from the owner to the occupier; secondly, to provide a settlement for the evicted tenants; and, thirdly, to cure congestion. Vast sums of money were placed at the disposal of the Irish Government to enable them to give effect to the intentions of Parliament, and he asserted that the Irish Government was honourably bound to use that money in giving effect to those intentions, and if the action of the Irish landlord party rendered it impossible to give effect to them, the money should, as far as possible, be withheld.
  As the House was aware, there were two land questions in Ireland—there was the general land question, and there was the question of congestion. It would be observed that his Amendment was divided into two portions—one dealing with land purchase in general, and the second with congestion. In the first place they said that serious amendment, including the abolition of the zones system, would be required in the Irish Land Act of last session to prevent the unjust inflation of the price of land in Ireland. They said that under the zones system, and as a consequence of that system, the price of land had been rushed up to a fictitious standard, and that the artificial inflation of that price threatened to render the Act inoperative, and consequently to defeat the intentions of Parliament. The intention of Parliament was that the sales should take place at the fair market value, at a price which would not place an undue burden on the purchaser, or subject the taxpayer to undue risks. In a recent speech the Chief Secretary had expressed satisfaction at the way in which the Act was being put into operation, but had urged that—
  "It would be madness on the part of the Commissioners to attempt to raise money at a rapid pace."
  The danger lay not in the pace but in the price. The right hon. Gentleman had also stated that the financial clauses were the foundation of the Act, and that any minor defects in the edifice erected on that foundation could be corrected in due course. In the opinion of the Irish Party, the system of zones constituted, not a minor, but a serious defect
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  striking directly at the financial foundation of the Act. It weakened the security, and consequently the whole foundation. The sole excuse for the invention of the zones system was that it would accelerate the pace, therefore the abolition of the zones would carry out the Chief Secretary's suggestion that the pace should be retarded. Prices had been unjustly inflated, and the zones system had contributed to the result. The average price of land from 1886 to 1903 was seventeen-and-a-half years purchase, but since the passing of the new Act it had been increased by five or six years. On 9th February last he asked the Chief Secretary to state in terms of years purchase the price agreed upon by the 3,070 occupiers who had arranged to purchase under the Act, but the right hon. Gentleman refused the information on the ground that it would entail so much trouble, and deprecated the practice of calling for voluminous interim returns. That was not an answer; it was a lecture, and Irish Members did not come to this House to be lectured by right hon. Gentlemen who undertook to govern Ireland without the consent of the people of Ireland. The Question was repeated in another form, in which merely the average price was asked for, and again the information was refused. The figure was of vital importance in the present discussion, and ought to have been given to the House. Moreover, the information was not asked for on behalf of the Irish Party alone, it was required for the English taxpayer. He quite understood the difficulties of the Chief Secretary. The right hon. Gentleman was not the Governor of Ireland. Ireland was governed not through this House, or the King's Ministers, but by a handful of Irish landlords, and it would be extremely inconvenient to them if the figures asked for were given.
  Of late years the value of land in Ireland had been going down, as was shown by the fact that the prices of the whole of the agricultural produce of Ireland had decreased from £34,406,856 in 1901 to £34,035,060 in 1902, and the total value of live-stock had fallen from £71,000,000 in 1902 to £69,000,000 in 1903. These totals showed a serious falling off, and he was justified in deducing from them

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  that the value of land had decreased. The same conclusion was to be drawn from the fixing of judicial rents. The reduction of second-term rents in November, December, and January last averaged 162 per cent., and the only reason why the Courts would reduce the rents was that the value of the land had decreased. In 1901 the average price of land was eighteen years purchase. Now, with the bonus, the average ranged from twenty-two to twenty-five years. While the value of the land was going down the price extorted by the landlords was going up, and this unnatural condition of price was dangerous to the purchaser, to the Irish ratepayer, to the British Exchequer, and to the financial foundation of the Chief Secretary's Land Bill. This unnatural condition of affairs was due to the intervention of the zones system. By the abolition of inspection, which was the necessary consequence of the zones system, they had given the landlords a free hand. The zones system had encouraged the landlords to demand and extort unfair prices. Under the system of sale and purchase in force from 1886 to 1903 there was no such thing as a zones system, but there was a system of inspection, and the procedure was that, when the landlord and tenant agreed to a price, the Land Commission sent down an inspector, and if he found that the land gave sufficient security for the advance claimed, then the advance was made. So that the inspection was a safeguard to the tenant, the taxpayer, and to the financial foundation of the Land Acts. No advance used to be made until the inspector had certified, and that safeguard did not exist under the Land Act of last session. No matter how-unfair the price or rotten the security, if the landlords and tenants agreed upon a price within the zones then the Estates Commissioners had no option but to make the advance. These inspectors were not acting on behalf of the tenants, and they had no bias towards the tenant, but rather the other way, and yet under the Land Acts of 1885 and 1888 they refused 3,795 applications. He was quoting from the Report of the Land Commission. Of the total number of applications received, which was 29,496, 3,795, representing £1,448,445, were refused
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  on the ground of insufficient security, irregularity, defective title, etc. When those applications were refused the average price of land was seventeen years purchase. Under the Acts of 1891 and 1896, 2,646 were refused, representing £870,105. The British taxpayer should remember, when these advances were refused, mostly on account of insufficient security, the average price of land in Ireland was seventeen years purchase, and now under the zones system, and without inspection, advances were made, although the average price of land was twenty-five years purchase. There was no security for the solvency of the purchaser or the financial foundation of the Bill. A landlord in his constituency offered a few years ago to sell his estate, at eighteen years purchase, to his tenants and this was agreed upon both by the tenants and the landlord. An application wan made to the Land Commission for an advance. The inspector was sent down, and he reported that the estate in question was not sufficient security for the eighteen years purchase, which included the interest of the tenant. He reported that eighteen years was too much. Those same tenants recently asked their landlord if he would sell under the Land Act of last year, and he replied that he would not sell to the tenants for less than twenty-five years purchase. Therefore they had the Land Commission officially declaring that the land was not worth eighteen years purchase, whilst the Estates Commissioners sitting next door would be bound to advance twenty-five years purchase if the tenants agreed to purchase. Parliament never contemplated that under the Act of last year prices would be forced up in such an unnatural and arbitrary way. He believed that the intention of Parliament was that the £12,000,000 bonus given by this House to the Irish landlords would enable them to sell at lower prices than those which prevailed under previous Acts. The prices at present demanded by the landlords appeared to them to be so extravagant that they thought an addition to these prices of £12,000,000 was a great waste of public money. If tenants were ready to pay such prices as were now demanded there would have been no need for the Land Act of last year, for the sales could have been carried out

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  under 1895 and 1896 machinery. While these exorbitant demands were being made the tenants had never sought to reduce the prices paid before the passing of the Act. They had surrendered to the landlords (1) the bonus; (2) the payment of costs; (3) the payment in cash; (4) facilities for purchasing demesnes; and (5) the advantages resulting from the clearing off of mortgages. All these rights the tenants had voluntarily surrendered to the landlords. No one expected that after receiving all those advantages the landlords would have insisted upon demanding prices far in excess of those paid from 1886 to 1902.
  His proposal was that under the new Act, as under the old, no advance should be made without inspection. When the average price was seventeen-and-a-half years purchase there were many failures, but there must now be much greater probability of failure when land had advanced to twenty-four or twenty-five years purchase. Under the old system the greater the amount of arrears the greater the care taken by the inspector to inquire into the security, but under the new Act the landlords had absolutely a free hand. They had no inspection to fear, and the larger the arrears the more helpless the tenant was in the hands of the landlord. The landlords were playing on the necessities of the poorest class of tenant and were exacting terms out of all proportion to the demands of justice. If the tenants failed, as in his judgment they were bound to fail if they accepted such terms, the taxpayer would be liable. The Chief Secretary said that he considered the financial foundation of the Land Act as the most important part of the measure and if the right hon. Gentleman were anxious to keep that foundation safe and solid it would be necessary for him to abolish the zones system and to restore inspection.
  The second part of the Amendment dealt with the question of congestion. He maintained that the Act for last year did not provide any remedy for the evils of congestion nor did it contain any provision sufficient to secure the redistribution of land in the poorer parts of the country. Unless such a provision were inserted the Irish Land question
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  could not be settled. He and his hon. friends proposed that the power of compulsory purchase should be conferred on the Congested Districts Board and the Estates Commissioners with the additional provision, that the sales of the congested estates should only be made to the Congested Districts Board or to the Estates Commissioners. In their judgment the land question of Ireland existed in its most intense form in the province of Connaught. It was in that province that the land agitation commenced and he maintained that the Act of last year did practically nothing to remedy the evils of which they had often complained in this House. The Government had always admitted the existence of those evils; they also admitted that there was a remedy ready to their hand but they had not the courage to apply it. It was stated last year by the Prime Minister that the Irish Land Laws reflected the utmost discredit on the power of British statesmanship. If that statement were true in regard to Irish land legislation in general it was especially true with regard to the problem of congestion in the west of Ireland. He would only quote a few brief figures which he considered were relevant. In 1811 the population of Connaught was 1,118,851. Then came the famine and the clearances, and afterwards followed consequences which remained to the present day. One of those consequences was that in 1901 the population of Connaught had dwindled to 646,932 or considerably less than half what it was sixty years ago. Another consequence was' that from 1851 to 1901 617,255 persons, a number almost equal to the present population, emigrated from Connaught. That was an extraordinary fall in population at a time when the population of other parts of the United Kingdom was increasing by leaps and bounds. It was due, as the appalling exodus of the people was also due, to the land system, which was described by the Prime Minister as the worst in the world. It was also due to the negligence of the Government under a system which the Chief Secretary said conferred on Ireland political equality. In Connaught there were 41,439 holdings which were valued for rating purposes at £4 or under, and 41,851 holdings which were valued at from £4 to £10. That was to sax that

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  there were in Connaught 83,290 uneconomic holdings. It was admitted by all Parties that it was practically impossible to obtain subsistence from the land for those poor people who had to live on patches of bog, on morasses, or on mountain sides. They could not earn the rent from the land; they earned it in England and Scotland as agricultural labourers, and in many cases it was paid by remittances from America. Side by side with those small wretched holdings there were large grazing ranches from which the forefathers of those poor people had been evicted, and which at the present time were used, not for the purpose of supporting an industrial agricultural population in comfort and in abundance, but for the purpose of raising cattle and sheep for the English market. It was said some time ago by the Archbishop of Tuam that there was one cure, and one only, for congestion in the west of Ireland, and that was to plant the people on the prairies of the West, and his Grace referred to the land as being at the present moment as free from contact with agriculture as it was when men hunted the boar and the wild deer in primeval days.
  The Land Conference Report, in one of its resolutions, said that the congested districts in the west of Ireland should have special treatment accorded to them in the Land Bill. He would give a few figures to show what was the meaning of the redistribution of the land which he advocated. He might add that the figures were taken from documents belonging to the Congested Districts Board, which he was permitted by courtesy to inspect. In the Swinford Union 4,768 families occupied holdings valued at £4 or under and in that union there were thirty-nine graziers and fourteen landlords who occupied grazing land to the value of £3,842. In Westport Union the total number of occupiers was 5,332, and of that number 3,041 occupied holdings of the value of £4 or under, and 150,935 acres of prime land were used for grazing purposes. In Killala Union 909 families occupied holdings valued at £4 or under, whereas seventeen graziers held land valued at £3,034. In Ballinrobe there were 4,081 residential holdings, of which 3,443 were valued at £4 or under, and 149 families occupied
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  holdings of less than one acre. Forty-seven landlords and thirty-five graziers occupied between them 61,031 acres for grazing purposes, and of the landlords thirty-four were absentees, and of the graziers sixteen were non-resident. In Belmullet there were 2,297 holdings, and of these 1,862 were valued at £4 or under, whereas twenty-two graziers occupied land valued at £1,233. In Castlebar there were 6,262 holdings, of which 4,314 were valued at £4 or under, while seventy-two graziers and thirty-five landlords occupied 28,976 acres valued at £13,118. In the Tuam Union there were 3,680 holdings, while there was grazing land amounting to 76,525 acres valued at £29,384. In Ballina the total number of holdings was 5,201, and of these 2,244 were valued at £4 or under, while grazing land in the union was rated at £9,509. The right hon. Gentleman had been through the congested districts and had. when introducing the Land Act of last year, given the House his experience of them. He then said—
  "We want to get at the occupier of the soil to enable him to purchase an economic holding upon which a man and his family can maintain themselves. Well it is difficult in the worst parts of Ireland, perhaps I ought not to dwell on the worst parts of Ireland, but in the worst parts of Ireland, there is a state of affairs which no hon. Member who has not been through them can conceive for a moment to be possible. The tenants are living under conditions which you would not find among the Kaffirs in South Africa."
  That was the picture held up before the gaze of the House on the 25th March, and it excited pity and stimulated benevolence. The House said almost as one man—"Let us change the picture and take away this reproach and let there be peace, prosperity, and sunshine in Ireland." The House was asked to lend the credit of the British taxpayer for a loan of £100,000,000, and to make a free grant of £12,000,000 to settle the congested district question. He asserted that that money was given mainly to change the picture painted by the Chief Secretary, and that it would not have been given if the House had believed that after the passing of the Act the picture would have remmained unchanged. The picture was unchanged now; the reality was the same to-day, as squalid and as appalling as it was on the 25th of March last. The Kaffir of the congested districts had not been

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  touched by the Act of last year and could not be touched. In his regard the intention of Parliament had come to naught, and they were therefore entitled to ask was not this a case in which the honour of the Chief Secretary was as much concerned as it was, by his own admission, in the case of the bonus to the landowners. It was in the hope that his efforts would change the picture that the House agreed to his financial proposals. They asked him now to give effect to the intentions of the House. They made no apology for pressing this matter on the House, because in their opinion the Act of last year was incapable of giving effect to the intentions of the House. On the Second Reading of the Act the hon. and learned Member for Waterford pointed out that the provisions of the Bill dealing with the congested districts would, if they were not strengthened, prove absolutely insufficient, and that warning was repeated in Committee, but in spite of all warnings the Bill left the House in practically the same condition as it was introduced. Neither in the framing of the Act nor in the discussions in Committee did the congested districts get fair play, and in support of that contention he referred to the resolution of the Land Conference which stated—
  "That the congested districts would require separate and exceptional treatment with a view to the better distribution of the population, and of the land as well as for the acceleration and extension of those projects of migration and enlargement of holding, which the Congested Districts Board, as at present constituted, with its limited powers, had hitherto found it impossible to carry out upon an adequate scale."
  The separate and exceptional treatment which, so far as it could be given, was given to the Congested Districts Board by the right hon. Gentleman was not worthy of the name, and did not increase their powers in the slightest degree. The Chief Secretary was in favour of compulsion, as was also Lord Crewe, who said he "hoped the pace would be considerably quickened." He went further and said the framers of the Act made no secret of the fact that they had not seriously attempted to grapple with this urgent problem. Lord Dunraven in the House of Lords said—
  "I take it that the sections applying to the Congested Districts Board are more or less experimental; that is to say, that, if they do not
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  succeed in the object the Government aim at, further legislation on that subject may become necessary."
  They were saying that to-day. At a meeting of the Bishops of the province of Connaught this resolution was passed—
  "We desire to record our conviction that the proposals, outlined in the Bill, for dealing with the great question of congestion, and the cultivation of vast tracts of prairie land in the West of Ireland, are quite inadequate. Larger and more extensive powers should be conferred on the Congested Districts Board throughout the entire province similar to the powers granted to the Crofters' Commission, in Scotland."
  and then they said—
  "We feel it our duty to declare that, if the Government will not take these or similar measures to deal with this great question in a thorough-going sort of way, the land question will not be settled in the West, nor the tide of emigration be checked; nor can peace and contentment be restored until the grazing lands taken from the people in the past, be given back to the men who are able and willing to work them for the maintenance of themselves and their families."
  That resolution was adopted on the 6th of April at Tuam, and signed by the Archbishop of Tuam, and the Bishops of Galway, Achonry, Killala, and Elphin. There was no body of men in Ireland more competent to express an opinion on a matter of this kind than the Bishops of Con-naught. They lived among the people, and they were not politicians. The Chief Secretary had not introduced a word into his defective Bill to give effect to the resolution of the Bishops. In Committee on the Bill the congested districts did not get fair play, seeing that the provisions dealing with congestion did not come forward in this House until 7th July, though the Bill was introduced on 25th March. Even at that advanced stage of the session he believed, if the Irish Government had been serious in their intention to grapple with this problem, they might have inserted provisions of a satisfactory nature, but no attention whatever was paid to the representations on the subject which were made from the Nationalist Benches. The Irish Party asked that compulsory powers should be given to acquire suitable land for the people living in the congested districts. They did not ask that these compulsory powers should extend to the whole of Ireland, but they asked for that kind of compulsion

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  which the Prime Minister considered would be necessary in 1890. They asked for that kind of compulsion which the Congested Districts Board considered necessary in 1895. They did not ask for compulsion that would injure either landlord or grazier. The Irish Party never expected that grazing farms in the West of Ireland would be confiscated. They expected that, if compulsion were applied, every interest would be safeguarded. Compulsion was anathema to the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary. It appeared as if the right hon. Gentleman were in the House for the purposes of protecting the interest of the graziers. He said they were an economic necessity. None of those on the Nationalist Benches would agree with him in that matter. Pre-emption was asked and refused; a reorganisation of the Congested Districts Board was also refused; a new and improved definition of "estate" was refused; a new system of scheduling was refused, although the Chief Secretary admitted that the system in existence was arbitrary and fallacious. He was satisfied to leave it arbitrary and fallacious, and it remained so at the present day. When pressed for Amendments the right hon. Gentleman declared that, as the credit and capital of the Congested Districts Board were increased under the Act, they should wait to see what would be done in the autumn and winter under the improved conditions. He did not seek to judge the Act by what had been done under it in the short period that had elapsed since it was passed. He took different ground altogether. The Act as it stood at the present time would not cure congestion in a century. If anything substantial had been done since the passing of the Act by the Congested Districts Board, he held it could have been done equally well if the Act of last year had not been passed. The right hon. Gentleman had got the autumn and winter, and what were his achievements? The right hon. Gentleman was aware that last year 13,530 migratory labourers left Connaught to earn rent in England and Scotland; he was aware that 173 per 1,000 of the adult population of Mayo were forced every year to seek employment away from their homes. For how many of these migratory tenants had he got employment on the grazing ranches.
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  He readily admitted that the Chief Secretary approached this question in a sympathetic spirit, but still the right hon. Gentleman, while deploring the malady which he described to the House on 25th March last, had shrunk from applying the remedy. In the course of a speech delivered the other day the Chief Secretary said—
  "As a rule politicians are more usefully engaged in attacking problems which are under their noses with the resource swhich are in their hands."
  He should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman why he did not attack the Kaffir problem in Connaught with some portion of the £12,000,000 which was given as a free gift to settle the Irish land question. In his judgment, £1,000,000 spent upon the Kaffir problem in the West of Ireland would do more to settle the land question than the £12,000,000 they were wasting in the futile effort to satisfy the landlords. Reference was made in the Amendment to the resolution of the Congested Districts Board. The resolution appeared in the Report of the Board for 1895, and was as follows—
  "That the Congested Districts Board are in possession of information, through their inspectors, that there are large tracts of land that could be used to enlarge the holdings of small occupiers and promote schemes of migration in congested districts. The Board are, however, of opinion that it will be impossible for them to give effect to this important department of their work unless more funds are placed at their disposal, and compulsory powers given to them to acquire such lands at their just value"
  That resolution was signed by Mr. Gerald Balfour, Sir David Harrel, Mr. Charles Kennedy, the most rev. Dr. O'Donnell, Mr. Frederick W. Pain, Mr. Horace Plun-kett, Mr. James H. Tuke, Mr. Frederick Wrench, Mr. A. J. Balfour, the Rev. W. S. Green, and the Rev. Denis O'Hara. The resolution had remained, up to the present, a dead letter, and he ventured to say that the failure of the Irish Government to give effect to it reflected the greatest discredit upon the powers of British statesmanship as applied to the Government of Ireland. The Irish Party now asked that the powers referred to in that resolution should be conferred on the Congested Districts Board and the Estates Commissioners acting under the Act of last year. A member of the

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  Congested Districts Board, who was a friend and admirer of the Chief Secretary, had informed him that he still adhered to the view expressed in the resolution of 1895. He asked him whether he would be good enough to give him his views as to the adequacy or inadequacy of the Act of last year to provide a remedy for the congestion in the West of Ireland. With the permission of the House he would read the statement he had received from that member of the Congested Districts Board. He said—
  "In my opinion no solution of the congested districts problem is possible in Connaught unless the Congested Districts Board get compulsory powers to acquire, at a price that is not excessive, all the holdings suitable for agriculture over £25 Poor Law valuation, which are in the occupation of non-residential tenants, and used for grazing purposes. The Act of 1903 does not give any special powers or facilities to the Congested Districts Boards to acquire nonresidential grazing holdings, nor grass lands in landlords' hands; on the contrary, owing to the facilities afforded to owners to buy back, with the aid of a State loan, one-third of the lands, comprising estates, which were not subject to tenancies before 1903, there is practically no chance of the Board getting any of such land-in, or convenient to the congested districts, unless they pay far more than the land is worth, and they cannot pay an exorbitant price for any considerable area of such land and settle tenants upon it without incurring a loss per family for settling them on the grass area that would be considered grossly excessive. And if they give this extravagant price, they will be fixing a standard that would be altogether too high."
  He was informed that the Board had recently bought some untenanted land, and if the Chief Secretary referred to that fact in his reply, he should like the right hon. Gentleman to mention that price at which that land was purchased. That was a matter of vital importance. The average price of land bought by the Congested Districts Board up to 1903 was thirteen and a quarter years purchase, and the highest was seventeen and a half. The Chief Secretary had formerly said that, in his judgment, the average price which the Board would pay for land would be about thirteen years purchase. His contention was that the land must not only be acquired, but that it must be got at a fair price; and that the sales in cases of congested estates should only be made to the Congested Districts Board or to the Estates Commissioners. The Chief Secretary, in his speech of 3rd Februar, said that in
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  an amending Bill the Government intended—
  "making all clear which was in doubt, and carrying out all the intentions that were expressed in this House and acquiesced in by all Parties."
  There were two points on which it would be necessary to remove all doubt, and which, from his point of view, were of the utmost gravity. In the first place, they wanted to know whether, under the new Act, a landlord who owned an estate comprising partly tenanted and partly untenanted land, could sell the tenanted portion of his estate and receive the bonus on the purchase price, while at the same time he retained in his own hands the untenanted land, which might be used for the purposes of emigration and enlargement of holdings. On that point the Chief Secretary must be perfectly clear. It was necessary to impress on the House that if such things were permitted the evils of congestion would be intensified instead of being allayed; and the intentions of Parliament would be utterly defeated. In the second place, all doubt must be removed with reference to the case of the evicted tenants. So far as the Irish Party was concerned they could never consider the Irish land question settled until decent provision was made for the evicted tenants. They wanted to know whether, in the case of an evicted tenant being restored to his holding, the Estates Commissioners would be entitled to give him free grants for restoring the farm buildings and fencing, and for restocking; and likewise compensation to the farmer who was willing to leave the evicted farm. A good deal had been said last year about the desirability of a better understanding between the classes in Ireland. The position of the Nationalist Party was perfectly simple. They had been all along for conciliation: and they believed that the proposals which they made were reasonable and moderate, and that they were necessary if effect was to be given to the intentions of Parliament when it passed the Act of last year. They contended that these proposals could not injure the landlords, but if they found, when the question came to be discussed in the House, that the landlords resisted their application for the abolition

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  of the zones, the restoration of inspection for the purpose of continuing the extortion of unfair rents, and an adequate remedy for the malady of congestion; and that they continued to deny a satisfactory provision for the claims of the evicted tenants, then the Nationalist Party would be reluctantly forced to believe that all they had heard last year about conciliation was hypocrisy and a hollow sham, and was intended merely as a means to hoodwink the House, and for the purpose of filling their pockets at the British taxpayers' expense. As far as his Party was concerned, they still offered conciliation, and they pointed out to the landlord party and the Irish Government that the 'only alternative to conciliation was continued conflict; and that while they, on those Benches, abhorred that alternative and honestly prayed that under wiser counsels it might be averted in the interests and for the good of their common country, they felt bound to say that if the continued conflict was forced upon them they should know how to meet it.
  MR. J. P. FARRELLsaid he rose to second the Motion proposed by his hon. friend so eloquently and ably but he realised—and he was sure that every Member sitting on the Nationalist Benches and in every other portion of the House must also realise—that the hon. Gentleman had absolutely covered the whole ground of the case and that it would be absolutely impossible for any subsequent speaker to add anything to the argument which had been made for the amendment of the Land Act of last year. It was' indeed with no feeling of pleasure that Members sitting on those Benches had to come to the House of Commons to complain of the inadequacy of its legislation. As every one, on both sides of the House, knew very well the highest hopes were excited last session by the prospect held out of immediate relief for the tenant farmers of Ireland by the operation of the Land Act of last year. So far as the conduct of one side of the controversy was concerned strong efforts had been made to prevent that Act from being a failure. They heard much in last year's debates of the policy of conciliation. He had been and was now a supporter of such a policy,
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  and hoped that that policy would put an end to class conflict in Ireland and give the people a chance of settling down to the development of their material interests and thereby increase the prosperity of the country which they all loved. To that policy of conciliation there were of course two parties—the landlords and the tenants. On the one side there were the leaders of the Nationalist Party and the national movement; on the other side were Lord Dunraven and his associates in the Land Conference and also a number of landlords not concerned with the Land Conference. He asked the House to bear in mind, if complaint was made as to the attitude of the Nationalist Party, of the unreasonable character of their demands, and the inability to satisfy them on any point, that they had sought to give effect to the policy of conciliation in Ireland. The Land Purchase Act received the Loyal Assent on 10th August last year, and on 8th September a most important meeting of the tenants' representatives was held in Dublin to consider the future working of the Act and to advise, as they had the right and authority to advise, the tenants of Ireland how it should be received. At the great meeting a number of resolutions were adopted, the most important of which set forth—
  "That wherever a readiness may be found on the part of landowners to sell at prices that will equal the prices under former Land Acts—having regard to the immense addition made to the landlords' price by the cheerful co-operation of the tenants' representatives—highest interests to conduct in spirit of utmost friendliness with an earnest desire to give the widest possible extension to the operations of the Act, so that any failure in its working may not be justly attributable to the attitude of the people, and that any amendment that may be found necessary may be brought about by the concurrence of all fair-minded men."
  That was their sheet anchor. They came there that evening in furtherance of the adoption of that resolution.
  The whole kernel of the difficulty in Ireland was the question of price. His hon. friend pointed out with great force the difference which existed between the price now asked by the landlords and the prices which were cheerfully and voluntarily taken by them under previous Acts. What were the facts with regard to some of the most prominent advocates of conciliation on the landlord side. Let them

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  take the case of Lord Dunraven, who was one of the signatories to the treaty of peace which was to bring about the millenium in Ireland and settle all disputes. After the passage of the Act Lord Dunraven was asked by his tenants to sell his estate and he replied in a long letter. The one fact which stood out in that reply was that if his tenants wanted to purchase their holdings under what might be described as Lord Dunraven's own Act they would have to pay twenty-six years purchase. This did not include the bonus which was generally regarded as being equivalent to three years purchase in addition, whereas land in the locality had been sold under previous Acts at from fifteen to eighteen years purchase. If the Nationalist leaders had known that Lord Dunraven's tenants would be asked to pay twenty-six years purchase it would have been very difficult indeed to have induced them to recommend the Act, as they did, to the kindly consideration of the Irish people. The breakdown of the Act as far as it had gone was not due to any act covert or overt, on the part of the tenants, their leaders, or the representatives of the tenants. That breakdown should be left at the door of the landlords including Lord Dunraven. It appeared to him that when land was to be sold they were not dealing with an unfortunate rain-sodden country but with a diamond mine at Kimberley or a goldfield at Coolgardie. The landlords regarded their interest as almost as valuable as if it were situated in those favoured places.
  Who would have to bear the burden if the tenants of Ireland were foolish enough to accept the baits held out to them by the landlords? He was speaking as much in the interests of the British taxpayer as the Irish taxpayer. If any deficiency occurred under the Act it would have to come out of public funds, and no doubt the Government would endeavour to make Ireland liable before touching the sacrosanct Treasury of England. He was therefore entitled to speak on this matter from an Imperial point of view, as well as from a local and national point of view. The Act was ushered in with great hopes, but up to the present it had been practically a dead letter. The right hon. Gentleman furnished a Return, which showed that
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  only 3,000 cases had been dealt with No one could contend that that was satisfactory progress. The question was—Had the tenants of Ireland endeavoured to work the Act, or had they not? From his own personal experience he knew they had. Every unsold estate in Long-for his own county, had appointed an estate committee, and had entered into negotiations with the landlords, and if the negotiations had not been successful it was entirely due to the inordinate demands of the landlords. So far, in his part of the country, only two estates had been sold, and one of those estates illustrated in a very typical manner the way in which the zones system worked, and also how the congested districts clauses had absolutely failed. He referred to the King-Harman estate in county Longford. The rental from agriculture and grazing land was £18,053 per annum. There were 647 non-judicial tenants, paying £4,471 per annum; 679 first-term tenants, paying £8,182; twenty-seven second-term tenants, paying £146; and 295 leaseholders paying £5,236. The estate was put up for sale four months ago, and a gentleman who, he understood,' took a prominent part in advising the Government during the passage of the Land Bill, was sent down to Boyle to negotiate it. This gentleman, Mr. Norris Goddard, also took a prominent part during the land war in Ireland, and was identified with the policy of the battering-ram in Kerry and other counties. He offered to the first-term tenants a reduction of 27½ per cent.; to the second-term tenants, 15 per cent.; to the nonjudicial tenants, 40 per cent.; to amicable leaseholders, 35 per cent.; and to other leaseholders, 10 per cent. The tenants met, under the presidency of the parish priest, and offered the following terms: First and second-term tenants to purchase at eighteen and twenty-one years, the landlord's terms being twenty-two-and-a quarter and twenty-six-and-a-half years, respectively, without counting the bonus. A few days delay occurred, and then the tenants received notice from Mr. Goddard that, if they did not accept his terms just as he offered them, without any alteration, he would withdraw his offer, and they would not get a chance of purchasing their holdings. So far from compulsion being put on the landlord to sell, the

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  tenants were compelled, for fear of being given no other chance of buying their holdings, to accept Mr. Goddard's terms. That case was brought before the Court in Dublin, and the Commissioners, after a great deal of persuasion on the part of the owners, agreed to accept the terms, and that estate was now going through at this enormous price. What he desired to point out in this case was the complete failure of the congested districts clauses of the Act. It had failed to change the conditions of the people who had been hunted to the congested districts in 1846 and 1847, and, if such cases as that to which he referred were to recur frequently, the passing of the Act at all must be regarded as a great waste of time. So far as Longford was concerned, the Act, except in one case, was a dead letter. That exception was the sale of the King-Harman estate, and it was sold as much for the benefit of a well-known firm of solicitors in Dublin as anybody else. The failure of this Act could be added to the many other failures in Ireland. With the failure of the Treaty of Limerick might now be added the failure of what might almost be called the treaty of Dun-raven. If the amending Bill which the right hon. Gentleman proposed to bring in, was to secure the payment of the bonus to the landlords, then, in the words of Bismarck at the Battle of Sedan—
  "They might sizzle in their own fat."
  The zones, as they were, were absolutely indefensible, and they were strongly opposed at the time the Act was before the House. So far as he was concerned that was entirely the fault of the landlords. The representatives of the tenants never sought to have the zones imported into the Act, and the incorporation of them was due entirely to the influence of the landlords. He would be slow to cast any doubt on the work of the Commissioners, but the hopes entertained last session that these gentlemen would transform the business of land purchase, clean out the Augean stables of Judge Ross' Court, clear up and purchase all insolvent estates, and get rid of the army of receivers who now battened and fattened on them, were hopes that had not been fulfilled. There had not been a single case dealt with by the Commissioners, and, therefore, he was rather
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  sceptical of the value of those gentlemen. But there was no harm in reminding the right hon. Gentleman that high hopes were entertained of these gentlemen, and that they should be reminded that they had to tackle this problem of insolvent estates, and show some result for the salaries he supposed they had drawn. They had heard of no evicted tenants being restored. A scheme had been drawn up to deal with the evicted tenants, but when inquiries were made with regard to it and as to what was to be done they were told that the Commissioners must wait until some estate turned up; that if the Commissioners went after estates the price of land would be raised. Of course, no objection could be raised to that, and if the evicted tenants question was not settled it was no fault of the Commissioners. It was with no feeling of pleasure that they desired to criticise unfavourably the measure of last session; it was not because they wished to make the position of the right hon. Gentleman more difficult than it already was; it was because their hopes of the Act had been doomed to disappointment, and the men responsible for the disappointment were the landlords. The right hon. Gentleman had to determine whether he would stand by the tenants or the landlords in this matter. If he now intended to do nothing to get the land for the tenants at a fair price then they must conclude that he desired to favour the landlords, but if, on the other hand, he wished to do something in this direction the way was open to him by accepting the Amendment of the hon. Member for Leitrim, which he now had the honour to second.
  Amendment proposed—
  "At the end of the Question, to add the words, But we humbly represent to Your Majesty that serious amendments including the abolition of the zones system are required in the Irish Land Act of last year to prevent the unjust inflation of the price of land in Ireland; and that the powers possessed under that Act by the Estates Commissioners and the Congested Districts Board for the acquisition of untenanted lands are not sufficient to provide a remedy for the evils of congestion by the redistribution of the land among the population of the poor districts of the country, without which the Irish Land Question can never be settled; and that a power of compulsory purchase of untenanted lands such as the Congested Districts Board unanimously asked for in 1895 should be conferred upon that

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  body and upon the Estates Commissioners acting under the Land Act of 1903, and that provision should be made that sales in cases of congested estates under that Act should be made only to the Board or the Estate Commissioners.'"—(Mr. P. A. McHugh.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there added."
  MR, T. W. RUSSELLsaid that British Members must be considerably surprised at a debate of this kind at this time. Last session they were engaged in passing a great Land Bill, and now they were raising the whole question of Irish land afresh. Hon. Members, however, might cease their surprise at once. It was a case of history repeating itself. The Land Act of 1881 was a great measure, but some months after it had passed into law they introduced Bills to amend it. Amending Acts were passed after many sessions, just as the proposals now being put forward would be passed after much trouble. There were several hon. Members absent from that debate about whom he felt a little curious. Where was the official Ulster Unionist Party? The only hon. Member from Ulster who could claim to represent the tenants was the hon. Member for Mid Armagh. But the entire official Ulster Unionist Party was absent when the interests of their constituencies were at stake. He supposed they were rather exhausted after their effort to import the Chinese into the Transvaal. For him the Amendment raised a considerable difficulty, for it assailed the zones. The Chief Secretary would be entitled to say that the Land Conference was responsible for the principle of the zones, and so far as he was concerned he was not prepared to oppose that principle. It would be remembered that when the question of the zones was discussed they moved Amendments, and supported them, not objecting to the principle of the zones, but objecting to the terms of the zones.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: No; we moved Amendments absolutely abolishing the zones, and when we failed in that we moved an Amendment altering the terms.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELLsaid he was apparently under a wrong impression. He
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  wished to ask the Chief Secretary two questions. The right hon. Gentleman proposed to introduce an amending Bill. He was not going to discuss that before he saw it, but he should like to know was the Bill to be confined simply to the reversal of Mr. Justice Ross's decision? He wished to know would the Bill be retrospective, and would it deal with cases that were before the Estates Commissioners now, and which might have been settled, or would it deal only with future cases? He did not complain of the bad drafting of the Bill. All he would say was that almost before the ink was dry upon the Statute-book the Solicitor-General gave a legal opinion to a great Irish land-owner who asked as to the destination of the bonus. And this gentleman, who was responsible for the drafting, gave that landowner the opinion that the least that could be said about it was that it was extremely doubtful. What business had a law officer of the Crown to give opinions upon his own handiwork? The law officers of the Crown in England were not allowed to give opinions of that kind, and the Solicitor-General for Ireland might very well have left that matter to some of his friends at the Bar, for there were plenty of them with very little to do. He agreed that the Act had not touched the real difficulty, and until the points which had been raised had been satisfactorily dealt with and solved, the land question would remain not only to trouble Irishmen, but also this House. He would assume that a landlord had an estate which was largely made up of uneconomic holdings, which did not pay any rent except that which came out of English or American labour. Would a landlord in that position, holding, say, 1,500 of such holdings, and also possessed of grass land let to graziers at a high rent—if that landlord came forward to the Estates Commissioners with agreements duly signed by those wretched tenants to purchase, but with no agreement signed for the sale or purchase of the grass land, would the Estates Commissioners in any case be bound to declare that portion to be an estate, not within the meaning of this Act, but for the purposes of this Act? He wanted to know if the Commissioners were compelled to give that decision, and

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  whether the bonus could be paid on untenanted land of that kind. Were the Estates Commissioners at liberty when a ease like that was presented, and they knew the landlord was also holding grass land which Parliament intended for the poor people—were they bound to declare, that an estate within the meaning of the Act?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM,): Does the hon. Member mean the tenanted portion of the estates?
  MR. T. W. RUSSELLsaid that he did. He wished to know if the landlord was to be allowed to sell those wretched holdings and keep the grass land. Take Lord De Freyne's estate. They were now dealing with the interest of these poor people, and they were not dealing with Chinese or Kaffirs, but with the subjects of the King at home. Just imagine Lord De Freyne asking twenty-four or twenty-five years purchase for those wretched holdings which had never yet paid one farthing of economic rent. Not only this, but he would be getting from the Irish taxpayer a bonus of 12 per cent. for his great kindness in selling these uneconomic holdings at fancy prices. The thing was perfectly ridiculous, the Chief Secretary for Ireland must place himself alongside this question, and these men must be told that they were not at liberty to harass and punish these poor people whom the English Government had placed at their mercy.
  What was the state of affairs in Ulster? When he spoke a few nights ago he had left his documents at home, but he would like now to show what the Ulster landlord was capable of. He did not complain that thirty-two great landowners had refused to sell. They were acting within their right under the law for which the House was responsible. They were entitled to refuse sale, and thirty-two Ulster landlords had already refused. They were not men of no account, for they included such landlords as the Marquess of Downshire, Lord Deramore, the Marquess of Donegal, Lord Dufferin, and Sir Francis MacNaghten.
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  There were no less than thirty-two of this class of landlords who absolutely refused to sell to their tenants at any price. What happened? He wished to put it to the House whether a state of affairs like that could last. What did Parliament mean in passing the Act? Simply that landed property in the possession of the Irish landlord should pass to the occupiers on fair terms, and what Parliament considered to be fair terms was this: the Irish landlord's income was to be decided by the second-term rents fixed by the Land Court, and it was decided that whatever was done the landlord should receive his second-term net income. That did not mean his present income, and that was what the landlords as a whole accepted. Did anyone think that they were going to allow one class of tenants to obtain possession by State aid and leave another class out. A state of affairs like that could stand in no country, and it would not do in the province of Ulster. He would show the House what had been done. Thirty-two small estates had been sold in Ulster, and he wished to show the reasonableness of the tenants in the prices they had given where sales had taken place, Thirty-two small estates had been sold in Ulster at an average price of 21½ years purchase of the first-term rents, 25 years purchase of the second-term rents, and 22½ years purchase of the non-judical rents. These prices were in excess of the economic value of the holdings, so that no one could say that the landlords were not getting fair terms. He would give the highest prices. For first-term rents it was twenty-three years, second-term twenty-seven, and non-judicial 27¾. The lowest was first-term seventeen, second 21½ and non-judicial twenty years purchase. He would show the reasonableness of the tenants. In over seventy-nine estates where sales had not taken place the average offer by the landlords of first-term rents was 23⅜ years, on second-term over 117 estates 26½, and on non-judicial rents 22¾. Of course these did not include the bonus, which would be added. The tenants' offers in cases where sales did not take place were on sixty-six estates an average of 19¾ on first-term, 22¾ on second-term, and over 108 estates twenty-three, and on non-judicial the average offer was nineteen years

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  purchase. In twenty cases the landlords refused the tenants' terms, and in forty-five cases the tenants refused the landlord's offer. The net result was that thirty-two small estates had been sold, and that in thirty-two cases the great landowners of Ulster had refused to sell on any terms, and he had noticed from the newspapers that negotiations had almost come to a standstill. He knew that Lord Belmore and another nobleman were negotiating the sale to some tenants, but that was all. That was a most serious condition of affairs. If the Chief Secretary had accepted Mr. Redmond's Amendment, the landlords would not have asked for these terms, but now they were standing behind the zones, and it was impossible to dislodge them. Parliament would not act now, but it would have to before long. That was the whole history of Land Bills. As regarded Ulster this differential treatment by landlords would not do. The landlords were entitled to reasonable and even generous terms, but they were not entitled to make a chess-board of Ulster, and say what estates should be sold, and what should not.
  He went into the Land Judge's Court in Dublin the other day, and anything like it could not be found elsewhere in the civilised world. They had an able Judge in Judge Ross, and he did not wish to assail him. He was told he was a partisan of the landlords, but everyone in Ireland was either a partisan of the landlords or the tenants. That Court was established to sell bankrupt estates, but the sale of an estate was the last thing it did. It had become a huge rent office. There were £16,000,000 of property in that Court. There were 80 or 100 receivers all over the country receiving rents, and scores of attorneys and lawyers making motions every day upon these wretched estates to make them more wretched still. This would not cease until this House dealt with it. Did they imagine that these receivers were going to give up their income, or that the lawyers who were fattening upon these estates were going to close the Court and deprive themselves of a handsome revenue. He saw one estate sold but the whole thing was a ridiculous imposture. He asked the Chief Secretary, was it to go on for ever. Judge Ross he did not blame. He
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  was mastered by his officials and receivers. This Court ought be cleared right out. As to the Estates Commissioners he had nothing to say against them. Whatever they could do they would do, but were they in a position to do anything? The Chief Secretary had lodged them in a seven-roomed house in Merrion Street where it was absolutely impossible for them to find accommodation, so much so, in fact, that Mr. Wrench was in another house on the other side of the street. How could they expect the work of a great Department to be carried on in these rooms? He knew the lack of accommodation was because the Treasury, acting on the advice of the Board of Works, would not allow more. Was there a staff commensurate with the work? Everyone knew there was not, and they had thus the greatest ameliorative Act ever passed by this House for Ireland administered in rooms which were not sufficient for the Commissioners, much less the staff. What financial arrangements were going to be made for carrying out the work under the Act? That required money, but he did not believe a shilling had been got yet.
  The whole question of arrears was becoming serious. He noticed that constantly and everywhere, when the landlord or his agent and the tenant had agreed as to the price the question arose as to what was to be done with the arrears. Then the arrears or the greater part of them were added to the purchase price agreed upon. That was not only a serious matter for the purchasing tenant, but for this House. Nothing was more certain than this, that if this went on the Act would break down. The hanging gale, which would never have been paid, had been, for instance, piled upon the back of the purchasing tenant. He did not wish to deprive the landlord of all arrears, but the landlord should be willing to accept a composition of arrears and not stipulale for the whole amount. He noticed that in the engagements which were being made the landlords were wholly forgetting to allow for purchase on the second-term rents. There was a tendency all over the country to jumble every kind of rent together, and to give a reduction on that. The thing was getting into such a state

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  that, if something were not done to correct it, confusion would result, and the effects which were expected from an Act passed with great hopes of benefit to the tenantry of Ireland would be lost. He still cherished the hopes which were entertained at (he time the Act was passed. They had been told that they should think Imperially. He wished the Government would think locally. He believed that things would come right if only the Chief Secretary would boldly grapple with the evils.
  He saw no great difficulty about the question of the zones. He considered that he was bound by the principle agreed upon by the Land Conference. When they consented to a reluclion varying from 15 to 25 per cent. he thought, they established the principle of the zones. He was going to cling to the Land Conference as long as he could. He believed that on the principle of the Land Conference this was a thing that could be settled, but he did say that the landlords in Ulster were grossly abusing the zones. They were asking prices nobody could ever have contemplated. The Conference when they passed the report believed that the mean between the 15 and 25 per cent. reduction would be accepted generally all over the country. [A NATIONALIST MEMBER: No.] He must say what he thought. He stood for the decadal reductions as strongly as anybody. He stood for it when the Bill was before the House, but he was not going to argue that, because the Government refused to provide for the decadal reduction in the Bill, they had any right to say that the landlord should pay it. He believed the whole of this question would be settled in Ireland if the mean of the Conference terms and the mean of the zones were adhered to. [A NATIONALIST MEMBER: No.] He would not say in the whole of Ireland, but he would say it would settle the question in the province of Ulster. But the landlords were in no frame of mind to accept either the Conference or the zones. They wanted the highest prices the zones allowed, and the bonus as well. Some of them were not even civil. Here was a letter addressed to the tenantry of an estate on 30th October last. He would not state the name, but he would give it
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  to the Chief Secretary if he desired to know—
  "Dear Sir, If you wish to buy the rent, I sell nothing. I require thirty years purchase on second term rents. Lord … is getting thirty years; a man at. … twenty-seven; two men in … twenty-six. This estate is more peaceable than either. In England where land is sold with timber on it it is valued down to a shilling a stick. I must be one of the valuers. You may get another if known as a person who understands timber. I do. I reserve all quarries, mines, minerals, brick, clay, and marls, and coal. I reserve for my friends and my heirs the right of going on the land with servants, dogs, and guns, to kill and carry away any game they may find. I enclose a postage stamp for reply"
  [An HON. MEMBER on the IRISH Benches: A most generous man.] If the Chef Secretary wished to see the letter he might. The House of Commons would observe in whose interests this was carried on. Ireland was not governed for the benefit of the people of Ireland, and it never had been. It had been governed in the interests of a class. That class represented England and English power up to a given date. There was no doubt about it, and the Government of Ireland was unquestionably in their interest. They had a Church established by law. They paid nothing for their religion. They got their land for nothing. They managed the whole local affairs. Local government was entirely in their hands and managed in their own interests. He admitted that they did it well. What was the use of going on with that system any longer? The Church had been disestablished; and now they had to pay for it; and they did it, and they were a great deal better off for doing it. The local government of the country had passed out of their hands; they were not even safe on the petty sessions bench. They were outmanned and beaten there. The land was passing from their grasp; not passing as it passed in the long ago out of the hands of people, when it was taken from them for nothing. No, they were getting honest sovereigns for it. Why carry on that policy? Why should they not govern Ireland openly in the interest of the whole people of Ireland, and say manfully to these Gentlemen: "This thing has gone on too long; we cannot have this country in a perpetual

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  state of ferment, and the Imperial Parliament dealing with your wrongs and grievances! Why not give these men their ducats and let them go, and let the people govern themselves." He did not think himself that it would be good for Ireland if they did go; but he maintained that there was no use in governing the country by that class of men. They were to be paid honestly for their land, and why should they be allowed to keep the prosperity and the progress of the country back? Give them, if they would go, honest and fair terms and let the way be cleared in Ireland for all the great moral, social, and some political reforms that were thundering at its gates and required the concentrated attention of its people.
  MR. CLANCYsaid he quite understood the desire of the hon. Member for South Tyrone not to make public the name of the writer of the letter which he had read to the House. The writer, however, had only expressed in very clear and candid language what most of the landlords of Ireland really meant. The hon. Member for South Tyrone had said one thing which ought to be noticed, and that was his comment on the condition of the business which was left to the Irish Parliament at West-minster. But at the end of this debate hon. Gentlemen representing English constituencies would flock in from other parts of the House and vote, in a division, on a subject of which they have heard not a single argument. He thought it was rather risky to put faith in such an Irish Parliament. If these hon. Gentleman had favoured them with their attendance and their attention during the debate, they might have learned a great deal which it was well for them to know from the instructive speech of the hon. Member for North Leitrim. That speech was most moderate and instructive on the two great topics with which the Irish people were concerned. His hon. friend showed that, from whatever cause, there was no doubt that during the last six months the price of land in Ireland had been enormously increased. A great many landlords were willing to sell at eighteen or twenty years purchase a year ago, but now many of them wanted from five to ten years additional purchase. What had occurred in the interim to
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  cause that? Nothing that he could see except the passing of the Land Act. That Act was deliberately proposed by the Government to aid the tenants by reducing their annual payments from 4 per cent. to 3¼ percent., but that difference had been absolutely absorbed by the landlords. The Chief Secretary could not possibly deny that that was the case. The Government should accept the suggestion of the Amendment for the amending of the Act by legislation. There were various ways for bringing compulsion to bear on the Irish landlords to be more moderate. As the Irish head of the Irish Executive, with the Estates Commissioners as his servants, the Chief Secretary was quite entitled to give them instructions to treat the Irish landlords as they deserved.
  The hon. Member for North Leitrim had referred to the problem of the congested districts and had made it perfectly plain that these districts would not be settled except by compulsion. That was his own personal belief; and he thought that almost every man connected with the government of Ireland, in his heart of hearts, agreed with that. He himself did not represent a congested district, but there was a large estate near Dublin, in the township of Skerries, owned by the trustees of Lord Holm Patrick where he meant to address a meeting of his constituents. He, however, learned that the tenants on the estate were negotiating for the sale of their farms and he refused to hold the meeting because it might have been said that he was an emissary of evil. The result of the negotiations was that the trustees refused to sell, and these tenants, to his personal knowledge, were paying now as high a rent as any man in Ireland. The landlord of that district, which might be made one of the most beautiful seaside resorts in Ireland, was deliberately obstructing the progress of the village by putting on preposterous rents. There was no remedy for a man like that, except to buy him out against his will; and he anticipated that within a few years even the Government would find it necessary to come to that conclusion. He thought the Irish Party and the House of Commons were entitled to some information from the Government, with reference to the administration of the Land Act. His hon. friend the Member for Waterford, during the recess, in a speech in county

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  Sligo referred to opinions which were reported to have been given by the law officers of the Crown in Ireland with reference to the working of the Act. A curious state of things was disclosed by the history of that incident as far as it went. One opinion, referred to by his hon. friend as having been given by the law officers, was that no money should be spent on the restoration of the evicted tenants in the way of expenditure on houses, restocking farms, and soon except by loan. It was since denied that such an opinion had been given.
  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. ATKINSON,)said that he had not been asked the question in any shape or form.
  MR. CLANCYsaid that personally for the right hon. Gentleman's sake he was glad to hear that, but the right hon. Gentleman's statement only made the matter more mysterious. Who gave the opinion? He thought the right hon. Gentleman had a grievance against the Government. He ought to have been asked for such an opinion and he and the Solicitor-General had apparently been passed over.
  MR. ATKINSONsaid that his statement also applied to his colleague the Solicitor-General.
  MR. CLANCYsaid he did not imagine that the opinion was given by the Solicitor-General. Before his hon. and learned friend drew attention to the matter the evicted tenants on the Cool-greaney estate were informed by the Estates Commissioners that no money could be spent except by way of loan; but after his hon. and learned friend had spoken they were told the reverse, and, as a matter of fact, he was glad to be able to state that the evicted tenants on that estate were to be restored, if not to their old holdings, to other holdings, that a large demesne was to be broken up for the purpose, and money was to be spent otherwise than by way of loan. He rejoiced at that result, but he wanted to know who endeavoured to prevent it. Who gave the legal opinion to which his hon. and learned friend had referred? Whoever he was was even more mysterious than the writer of the Letters of Junius, and if he were only known he would be
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  celebrated for such a ridiculous and assinine opinion. He would also like to know who asked for the opinion. Then there was a further opinion to the effect that the Estates Commissioners or the Congested Districts Board had no power to pay a bonus for the purchase of untenanted land. Would the right hon. Gentleman say that such an opinion was not given. The right hon. Gentleman remained strangely silent and he gathered that such an opinion was given.
  MR. ATKINSONsaid that the hon. Gentlemen must know that it was perfectly impossible for him to state what opinions had been given to the Government by the law officers of the Crown.
  MR. JOHN REDMONDasked why the right hon. Gentleman did not deny it, if it were not true, as in the case of the other opinion.
  MR. ATKINSONsaid he could state that he was not asked for an opinion, but he could not state what opinions had been given, that was a matter for his right hon. friend to disclose if he pleased.
  MR. CLANCYsaid he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would convey to the Chief Secretary what had just happened. The opinion which had been given was either public or private.
  MR. ATKINSON: The right hon. Gentleman knew that his lips were closed as to any legal opinions which might have been given to the Irish Government.
  MR. CLANCYasked if that applied also to another opinion with reference to the definition of an estate? He hoped that the Chief Secretary would explain the matter later in the debate. It was trifling with the House to maintain that those opinions were private. The matter was one concerning the administration of a great Act of Parliament; and it was nonsense to think that the grounds on which the administrators of the Act proposed to discharge their duties were not to be stated in this House. He hoped the Chief Secretary would be able to state who asked for those opinions and who gave them. Who asked for that opinion? Was it the Estates Commissioners? If it were, having regard to

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  the fact that they were an administrative body placed outside the jurisdiction of the courts by an express Act of Parliament, they were in his opinion unfit for the position they held.
  MR. ATKINSON: I can ease the hon. Gentleman's mind upon that point, the Estates Commissioners never asked for an opinion of any kind, are not entitled to ask it, and, as far as I am concerned, would never get it.
  MR. CLANCYsaid that was a most gratifying statement. Could the hon. Member make such another with regard to the man in the iron mask? Of course, he did not think that Mr. Finucane or Mr. Bayley would be guilty of any such ridiculous action. If he were to express an opinion he would say it was the Treasury, and he would go further and say he believed he could put his finger on the man who represented the Treasury on that occasion. If he repeated the rumours in Dublin he would say the Secretary of the Commission, Sir John Franks, was the agent on this occasion. If the hon. and learned Gentlemen could not answer the question himself would he ask the Chief Secretary to tell the House whether it was the habit of this Mr. Franks, who had been lately knighted, to issue these ukases to a Board which he had no right to address so long as they acted within the lines of their Department. There was one other point upon which he would like information-Why were these Amendments necessary to every Act of Parlament passed for Ireland? There had already been six amending Acts to the Local Government Board Act of 1898. The real reason was that all British Governments distrusted the Irish Members; they looked with suspicion on every proposal made by them, and, as a consequence, when the most necessary suggestion was made by them during the progress of an Irish Bill through Parliament, the Government attitude became at once antagonistic; the suggestion was disregarded, and, as a result, in a few years the Act had to be amended. It was nothing less than insulting to the Irish representatives, the manner in which the Government always imputed to them sinister motives.
  MR. HEMPHILLsaid be could not help thinking the House
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  was much indebted to Mr. Justice Ross for having expressed, in the form of a judgment, an opinion on the construction of the Land Act of 1903, because it had brought to the attention of the House and the country the necessity for the amendment of this Act as to the bonus. The whole matter had been his cussed over and over again when the Act was before the House, and the right hon. Gentleman had stated he was not prepared to sanction compulsion, but thought some method of suasion such as the granting of a bonus would carry out the intentions of the Act. Mr. Justice Ross had, however, given a contrary opinion, and, that being so, the whole case ought to be reopened. He rose to ask the right hon. Gentleman and his advisers whether this amending Bill should not be framed so as to include the discussion of the other great questions involved in this Amendment, so that further amending Bills would be avoided in the future. He thought the opportunity ought to be offered, and trusted it would be offered to the House to see whether the system of zones could not be got rid of altogether. The existence of these zones would always be a great disadvantage in the working of the Act, because they had held out inducements to the landlords to insist on a price quite beyond the market price of land in Ireland. He trusted, when this amending Bill came before the House for discussion, a clause would be inserted requiring that, in every case where the landlord and tenant could not agree at once as to the price to be paid, there should be an immediate inspection of the land, and that the price should be fixed by the Estates Commissioners.
  The letter referred to by the hon. Member for South Tyrone was most valuable as showing what was passing in the minds of the landlords. The English taxpayer was interested in this question, because Parliament had pledged British credit to the extent of £100,000,000 on the security of purchase annuities, and had also given £12,000,000 hard cash as a bonus. Consequently the English taxpayer was vitally interested in seeing that these annuities were not unreasonably high. If a tenant bought at thirty years purchase, and was liable to pay 3 ¼ per cent. on the purchase money, he would have imposed upon him

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  a burden which, in a bad season, or even in an average season, would render it impossible for him to meet his engagement to the State. The State would be the sufferer in the last resort. It was therefore most essential, not only for the character of the Irish people themselves, but for the prosperity of the country, and for the preservation of the country to the occupiers of the land as tillers of the soil, that they should get the land at such a reasonable price as would enable them to make an honest living from their labour; but that would be altogether impossible if the landlords were encouraged to place an undue price upon the land, or to take advantage of the ignorance, weakness, or anxiety of the tenant to impose upon him a burden which the land would not sustain. This could be guarded against only by having, as had been done under previous Acts, an inspection by a responsible officer who would make sure that the price asked was such as the tenant might reasonably be required to pay. By purchasing his holding a tenant incurred an invariable liability for sixty-eight and a half years—a liability which he could not escape from or modify, no matter how bad the seasons might be or what untoward circumstances might arise. All these considerations should be borne in mind in order that the tenants might have every possible safeguard the Legislature could create to prevent them rushing into improvident and unfortunate bargains. The state of Ireland would be worse then ever if the unfortunate occupiers were to be burdened by an exorbitant rent which they could not pay. It would end either in a revolution or in universal bankruptcy. It was therefore absolutely necessary that the right hon. Gentleman should consider, in bringing in his amending Bill, whether he would not modify the section with regard to the zones and require some such security as had been suggested.
  With regard to the congested districts, one of the great objects of the Act being to relieve the congestion, it would be preposterous if the measure wholly failed in that respect. There were landlords who had fine grazing lands on their hands and a number of tenants paying up to £10 a year. They would be extremely glad to sell the mountainous parts of their estates at twenty-three or twenty-four years purchase, pocket the bonus, and
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  retain the large grass pasture lands in their hands. That would be a glorious thing for the landlords, but it was not the object for which the British Parliament had guaranteed £100,000,000 and made a present of £12,000,000. That these uneconomic holdings should be converted into fee simples at the end of sixty-eight or seventy years would be a thing at which the gods might laugh as a spectacle of absurdity and incongruity. The only way to keep these honest, decent, struggling, poor people in the land of their birth was to give them an opportunity of enlarging their farms to a living margin, and that could be done only by making the landlords who had large un-tenanted lands, sell the whole, so that the Estates Commrissioners might parcel out and resettle the estates in such a way as to give each tenant a reasonable holding. Unless the Act were amended in the manner foreshadowed by the Motion before the House it would be a mockery, a delusion, and a snare, both to the people of Ireland and to the taxpayers of this country. The experience of the year had confirmed him in the opinion that finality was remote and that they were only in the process of evolution in the settlement of the land question, and that compulsion was the ultimate resort to which the House must at no very distant date have recourse, if the evils of which they complained were to be remedied. Meanwhile, he appealed to right hon. Gentlemen to carry out the resolution of the Congested Districts-Board of 1895, for unless compulsory powers were granted to the Board the Act would be a failure, and in the meanwhile ho should vote for this Motion.
  MR. COGHILLreminded the House that last session he was one of the small minority who opposed the passing of the Land Act, and if he required any justification or vindication of the attitude he then took up it would be found in the speeches to which they had listened in the course of the debate. Only seven months had elapsed since the Act passed through the House. What had become of all the hopes and expectations that were then held out? Every prediction which the minority made, had been borne out by the facts. The hon. Member for North Leitrim had declared that the

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  Chief Secretary had not closed the door on the Irish land question. But last year the right hon. Gentleman said that he was closing the door for all time, and it was in that belief to a great extent that Members on the Government side of the House supported the Bill. What had been the effect of the measure on the price of land in Ireland? Previously the price was seventeen and a half years purchase; it had now gone up to twenty-five or thirty years, and the hon. Member opposite had gone the length of saying that Ireland would have been better off without the Act unless it were amended. He had heard of an estate the landlord of which had always received his rents punctually and without reduction, and who had now obtained ho did not know how many years purchase for it and a bonus of £240,000 in addition. What did the British taxpayer get in return for that? Absolutely nothing. Surely that was not a profitable bargain for the people of this country. Reference had been made to the congested districts and the evicted tenants, and it appeared that those questions were in the same acute stage as before the Act was passed. Further, the hon. Member had spoken of the free gift of £12,000,000 as a mere waste of public money. He sincerely hoped the British taxpayer would take note of those words.
  The opposition to the measure was based mainly on three grounds. The first was that the moment for making the demand was inopportune owing to the great strain of the war. The present price of Consols showed that the opposition on that point was fully justified. The second ground of opposition was that the demand was not a final one, and that before long the Irish Members would come back wanting further legislation. On that ground also the opposition had been absolutely justified. The third ground of opposition was that the measure would not afford a final solution and that it would not be considered as a final settlement of the questions between this country and Ireland. The hon. Member for Waterford had always fairly and honestly taken up that position, but the same could not be said of the Chief Secretary, for the right hon. Gentleman had led the House to believe that they were approaching the period of the millenium so far as the Irish question was concerned. All that had now disappeared.
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  Even so far as the land question went they were now told that the Act could not be regarded as a solution of this question. The Chief Secretary had stated, by the way of consolation for having spent these £12,000,000 and guaranteed a further £100,000,000, that the House had the satisfaction of knowing that they had done their duty. Perhaps they had, but was it not rather an expensive way of doing their duty? He only hoped that if the right hon. Gentleman on some future occasion wanted them to do their duty he would ask them to do it at a some what lower figure. In a recent speech the Chief Secretary had said that Ireland was entitled to perfect equality of treatment with England. He had always been prepared to grant that, but he had always understood that Ireland enjoyed an excessive representation in the House of Commons, and that if 1here was any inequality it was against the British rather than the Irish people. They now wanted the Act amended. Last session he had urged the House not to pass the Act because, if they did, the Irish Members would be masters of the situation. His view was not accepted, and all he would say to the Irish Members now was that they had the matter in their own hands, and could get what they liked from the Chief Secretary. Before the Act was passed the British Members were masters of the situation. That was the case no longer, and hon. Gentlemen opposite could get what they liked. If the Act had been a success and had removed the grievances complained of he and his friends would have felt that their opposition had been unjustified, but in the light of what had taken place he could only say that their action had been entirely vindicated. He did not wish to rake up any further controversy; he would therefore merely add that it must now be recognised—he thought the right hon. Gentleman himself must now recognise it—that the solution of the Irish land question would have to remain for some other Irish Secretary who was less sanguine, less visionary, less enthusiastic, but perhaps more practical, than the present occupant of that office.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELLexpressed the hope that the Chief Secretary would be of the same opinion as

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  the hon. Member who had just spoken, with regard to the Irish Members getting the Act amended in the direction they desired. He believed that the Chief Secretary had done his best, as far as he was allowed, to remedy the great evils connected with the land question in Ireland, but, if they came to the House to ask for the amendment of the Act of last year, they did so because they knew Ireland better even than the right hon. Gentleman. The Irish tenants desired to give the fullest facilities for the working of the Act. The Irish Party as a whole did everything in their power to facilitate the passing of the measure through the House, and, when they went home to their own country, they encouraged the tenants to give prices above what they had been accustomed to give in order to show that they were serious in their desire to bring about a settlement of the Irish land question. Last year they were told, when the Act was being passed, that it would help to divide up the grazing ranches in Connaught among those who lived on the bogs arid the mountains. They were told that the evicted tenants who had been suffering on the roadside for twenty or twenty-five years, would be restored to their holdings. Those who believed in compulsory purchase for the time being waived their plea for the enactment of powers to bring that about, in order to give the policy embodied in the Act an opportunity of being tried. They had done everything they could to facilitate the policy. Had the landlords of Ireland striven honourably to facilitate the work of transferring the land to the people, and so to promote the pacification of the country? It was evident to every man who had watched the course of events during the last six months that, instead of facilitating the work, they had done everything in their power to oppose it. During the past seventeen years while land purchase had been in operation, the average price in the congested portions of the country, where the land was poor, was thirteen and a quarter years purchase. In his own county, which was more than half congested, the average price was fifteen and a half years purchase. The hon. Member for South Tyrone had quoted the highest prices in those districts under the old Act, and he thought the figures must have surprised hon. Members who heard them. He would give the
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  prices for his own district. Lord Lans-downe, Lord Barrymore, and a number of other landlords had sold their estates in Kerry at prices ranging from eleven to nineteen years purchase, the average being fifteen and a half years. These men got no bonus, and they had to pay the expenses of transfer. They had to accept payment in reduced land stock instead of cash. Tenants who lived next door to the men who had already purchased had approached their landlords asking them to sell. Lord Lansdowne, whose highest price for his best land was nineteen years purchase under the old Act, was now demanding twenty-five years purchase with the bonus under last year's Act. Lord Kenmare had demanded something like the same price. He could give numerous examples of the same kind of demand made by landlords. In the face of these facts how could it be said that they had met the tenants or their representatives fairly in this matter. He said they had not, and if this Act was failing or breaking down it was not the fault of the Irish tenants, who had increased the market value of the land. It lay with the landlords who had insisted on demanding from the tenants prices which were economically unfair. The transactions which had taken place under the Land Act should have fixed the price that might be considered the fair market value of the land. That price averaged seventeen years purchase on the rentals.
  It might be said that there was not a fair field in Ireland, and that the system of arriving at the market value was not the same as in other countries—that supply and demand did not work as in other countries. From the Report of the Agricultural Commission in 1897, it appeared that one of the most eminent authorities in this country-Sir Robert Gitfen—said that it was almost impossible for the landlords of England to get eighteen years purchase on the then rentals, though in 1875 it was possible to get thirty years purchase on the then rentals. Though these rentals had been reduced in the intervening twenty years, it was almost impossible to get eighteen years purchase. In Ireland the landlords wanted twenty-five, twenty-eight, and thirty years purchase for the land, but if eighteen years purchase was sufficient for English

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  land, with the great facilities for sending produce to market and other advantages which farmers here had over those in Ireland, it was monstrous for any Irish landlord to ask thirty years purchase. Ho spoke for his own constituency when he said that, if the demand was continued, they would insist on putting a period to this hypocritical form of conciliation. The hon. Member, referring to the prices within the zones, 3aid it was natural that when the Government said they regarded twenty-seven and a half years purchase as full and sufficient security, the landlords should go in for the highest figure the Government were prepared to accept. The Government were responsible for the raising of prices. Until that system was done away with, the landlords would continue to demand prices which it would be impossible to pay, and the final settlement of the Irish land question would be postponed. The hon. Member for South Tyrone, speaking for Ulster, said he would be content with the mean of the zones. Speaking for Munster, he himself would not be satisfied with that mean. What was meant by cheap money? Was it cheap if the interest paid for his money by the farmer was not lower than the interest paid under the Act of 1896? He contended that when all the Treasury arrangements were unravelled it would be found that money was as dear under the present Act as under the old Acts of 1891 and 1896. It was said that the landlords were entitled to have their present net income. What they were now asking was an amount of purchase money for their estates which, invested in absolutely safe securities, would bring in 4 per cent., although trustees securities at the time of the Land Conference did not bring in a rate of interest of 3¾ per cent. He found from the report of the Agricultural Commission that the English and Scotch landlords only received CO per cent. of their gross rental, whereas the Irish landlords now demanded 90 per cent.
  MR. O'DOWDsaid that as he came from a constituency which would be more or less affected by the Amendment, he would hardly be doing his duty if he did not give his opinion of the case presented to the House by his hon. friend the Member for North Leitrim, and of the causes which had tended to render
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  the Act of last year to a great extent a failure. That Act, if it was ever to be a success, especially in Connaught, could only become so by the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary accepting the recommendations contained in the Amendment now before the House. That was his opinion and that was the opinion of those competent to judge by the fullest knowledge and experience of the working of the Act. He spoke from personal knowledge of facts in his own constituency, when he said that the Act since it came into operation had been handicapped, and rendered practically inoperative, by the unreasonable attitude taken up by the great body of landlords from the first. They had refused to sell, at even any price, through the Estates Commissioners; and they had refused to sell to the tenants direct unless at prices which it would be absolutely impossible for them to pay. They refused to sell outside the zones, ignoring altogether the broad basis of years purchase on which the tenants were accustomed to buy their holdings under the Ashbourne and other Acts in the past. He knew landlords in his own county of Sligo who two years ago would have willingly sold their estates at twenty years purchase on second-term rentals. To-day these same gentlemen were demanding prices which, with the bonus added, would mean thirty years purchase. Now, he respectfully asked, what had occurred in the meantime to enhance the value of land in Ireland? Nothing, in his humble judgment. On the contrary, land had depreciated in value in Ireland during the last two years, as anyone knew who had any experience of rural life in that country. Everyone would agree that the year 1903 had been one of the most disastrous which farmers in Ireland had experienced for a quarter of a century.
  And, it being half-past Seven of the clock, the debate stood adjourned till this Evening's Sitting.

EVENING SITTING.

  KING'S SPEECH (MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS).
  Order read, for resuming adjourned debate on Amendment [18th February] to Main Question [2nd February], "That

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  an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, as followeth:—
  "Most Gracious Sovereign,—
  "We your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament."—(Mr. Hardy.)
  Which Amendment was—
  "At the end of the Question to add the words, 'But we humbly represent to Your Majesty that serious Amendments, including the abolition of the zones system, are required in the Irish Land Act of last year to prevent the unjust inflation of the price of land in ire-land; and that the powers possessed under that Act by the Estates Commissioners and the Congested Districts Board for the acquisition of untenanted lands are not sufficient to provide a remedy for the evils of congestion by the redistribution of the land among the population of the poor districts of the country, without which the Irish land question can never be settled; and that a power of compulsory purchase of untenanted lands such as the Congested Districts Board unanimously asked for in 1805 should be conferred upon that body and upon the Estates Commissioners acting under the Land Act of 1903; and that provision should be made that sales in cases of congested estates under that Act should be made only to the Board or the Estates Commissioners.'"—(Mr. P. A. McHugh).
  Question again proposed, "That those words be there added."
  MR. O'DOWD, continuing his speech, said that when the House adjourned he was mentioning the fact that last year was one of the most disastrous that Irish farmers had ever experienced, owing to the continuous floods during the summer and autumn. He spoke from personal knowledge, from his own vain endeavours to save his own crops. Yet it was at the close of such a year, with ruin and misery facing the impoverished farmers, that the landlords were endeavouring to impose their impossible conditions by asking such prices as compelled the tenants in despair to abandon the idea of negotiating with them altogether. Under such circumstances could it be wondered at that in many parts of Ireland the Act remained a dead letter? Could the blame for such an unsatisfactory state of affairs be laid at the door of the tenants he would ask? Unquestionably it could not. Last November, when the Act came into
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  operation, after a most disastrous harvest; with their rents falling due, and many in arrears, in the hope of having their rents and arrears either partially wiped out or included in the purchase-money should sales be effected, the farmers were prepared to offer, and did offer, terms of a more than generous nature for the purchase of their holdings. They were met by the landlords with exorbitant and extravagant demands. Encouraged by the zones clause, which had undoubtedly tended to inflate the value of land, and taking advantage of the tenants whoso rents had fallen due, the landlords pressed for impossible prices, and, failing to secure them, prosecuted for the recovery of both rents and arrears. In consequence of that stand-and-deliver policy, most of the tenants in his constituency found themselves in this position to-day, that having had to pay their rents and arrears, they were in no hurry now, and were not wishful, at present, to reopen negotiations until a better spirit was displayed. It appeared to him that the landlords had entered into a combination to deliberately defeat the aims and objects of the Land Act. The Estates Commissioners, the supreme authority charged by Parliament with the administration of this Act, had been boycotted by them. The reason for this was easy to find. When the House voted £12,000,000 last year in the shape of a bonus, all parties honestly intended that that immense sum should go a long way towards settling the agrarian question. They intended that it should have the effect of bridging the gulf between the landlords' demand and the tenants' offer, and of facilitating purchase bargains on a fair basis. It should be remembered also that several other bonuses wore secured to the landlord under the Act of last year. First, there was the bonus of 12 per cent. difference between the value of cash and land stock; and secondly, the value of the permission to sell demesnes to the State and to re-buy them on the same terms as ordinary tenants; and thirdly, in the matter of the costs of sale, which were now borne by the Estate. It might have been supposed that with all these bonuses or bribes dangling before his eyes, the landlord could be brought to act in some kind of a reasonable spirit, but there seemed to be no place in his heart for either reason or justice. His idea of reason and justice

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  seemed to be to pocket the bonuses and add seven or eight years purchase to the price of the estate. In the face of these facts it was clear that the zones system should be abolished, and that, pending compulsion, which was bound to come, all future sales should be made independent of the landlords, and only through the Estates Commissioners or the Congested Districts Board.
  In regard to the question of congestion in the West, and the solution of the Western problem generally, he could reiterate what was stated in this House from these benches last Jul}' when the clauses of the Land Bill relating to the congested districts were under discussion. Unless some popular representation was introduced into the constitution of the Congested Districts Board, and additional powers given to that body and to the Estates Commissioners to acquire land compulsorily for those having no farms and those occupying uneconomic holdings, emigration could not be stopped, and the land problem, was so far as the West concerned, would still remain unsolved. What was going on even now in the West? In a portion of his own constituency, scheduled as a congested district, a large grazing farm, which had hitherto been let annually to the small tenants surrounding it for grazing purposes had been sold, not to the tenants surrounding it, but to a neighbouring landlord who, besides being a notorious disturber of the peace in that part of the country for years, held large estates and large grazing farms already in Sligo and in Galway. In another case a gamekeeper had been placed on a large farm in the congested district of Aclare. That stranger, without a penny in his pocket, had been advanced public money to purchase out a ranche which should be divided among the people. In another part of his constituency there was an estate in the Land Judge's Court which contained a large grazing tract surrounded by small holdings, which should have been used in all justice for the enlargement of those holdings. But no; it had been given to a speculating land-jobber. Those were the men to be bolstered up, to the exclusion of those who had no land, and these three men, Mr. Phibbs, of Chaffpool; Mr. Perdon, of Aclare; and Mr. McDermott, of Knoc-allassa, whose cases I have mentioned,
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  have been a source of trouble to the Government for years. They are a source of expense to the Treasury just now, for I suppose the cost of extra expenditure incurred mainly in their account must now be borne by the Treasury, seeing that payment of it has been successfully resisted by the Sligo County Council.
  In Sligo, out of 13,400 holdings, 3,500, or over 25 per cent., were valued at £4 and under, while there was 75 per cent. of the whole valued at £10 or under. In Connaught there were about 12,000 migratory labourers who had not as much land as would sod a lark, whilst there were 1,000,000 acres in the heart of the province in the hands of the land-jobbers. The circumstances of Con-naught differed from those of other provinces, for there they had the rich plains in the hands of the few, while the masses of the population were huddled together on bleak mountain slopes and patches of reclaimed moor. If the right hon. Gentleman wished to solve these questions he would have to abolish the zones and insert in an amending Bill a clause giving compulsory powers to the Congested Districts Board and the Estates Commissioners for the acquirement of the waste lands of the west for distribution among the people. In that way, and in that way only, could the western problem be satisfactorily solved, and peace and contentment brought to the masses of the population in Ireland, who had too long been the victims of felonious landlordism and British misgovernment.
  MR. FLYNNregretted that the hon. Member for Stoke was not in his place, as be had constituted himself the champion of the British taxpayers, who was likely to sutler unless the Amendment of his hon. friend were carried. In this debate the Irish Members did not come forward with alacrity, but rather in sorrow, to point out that an Act a little more than three months old had fallen far short of the intentions of the Government, and, so far as the Irish people were concerned, had been an absolute failure. Three months ago the hearts of the Irish people beat high with hope, and they congratulated each other on the fact that a better era was opening for the country, and that the great industry of Ireland,

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  agriculture, was in a very good way of being settled, and that the country might reasonably look forward to a period of peace and prosperity. To a very large extent all these hopes had been dispelled. No one who knew the condition of things in Ireland and had followed what had passed since last autumn could come to any other conclusion than that the Act was a dead letter and a failure. The tenants had been quite content to see this enormous bonus of £12,000,000 from the Treasury pass entirely into the hands of the landlords; they had been quite content that the landlord classes should have all the advantages of this great Act; nay, more, they had offered more than the average prices as ascertained by the Ashbourne Act, and yet the question was as far as ever it was from a settlement. He rose to express his surprise that the Chief Secretary had not seen his way to put the House into possession of the fullest information with regard to his Amending Bill, and with regard to the land question. The hon. Member for Leitrim had asked for a Return showing the number of purchases transacted under the Act of last year, yet up to the present, although it had been worked out that a clerk could easily get that information in a few hours, it had not been given. Why had that information not been given? Was the right hon. Gentleman afraid that it would not indicate such a condition of things that the Irish taxpayers and the British taxpayers generally would view without great alarm? When he heard the appalling figures quoted by the hon. Member for South Tyrone as the number of years purchase he could not but feel that the tenants had gone too far in their endeavour to make the Act a success. He could not congratulate the hon. Member for South Tyrone on the advice he had given to the tenants to pay this excessive price for the landlords' interest in the land. What was the landlords' interest in the land? Judge Madden, when Attorney-General years ago, stated that at the present moment the tenant owned half the interest of the holding. Then what was the tenant buying now under this Act? He was buying the landlord's interest, which was only half the interest of the holding, and yet paying twenty-four, twenty-six, and twenty-eight,
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  and even thirty years purchase, and over all this a bonus was to be given to the landlord. In all the annals of extortion a case could not be found to compare with this. There was a very grave and serious danger to the tenants if this sort of thing was allowed to go on, and also to the Empire, because it must not be forgotten that the reproductive fund was pledged up to the hilt, and was liable to make good the difference between the £100 cash which the landlord got for every £100 worth of land he sold and the price of the land stock, so that the entire Irish people were deeply concerned in this matter.
  But it had been pointed out by the hon. Member for Stoke that in the last resource the general taxpayer might be called upon to pay the advance in order that the landlords, at the close of a bad year, might extort from the tenant far more than the value of his land. That was a very grave and serious condition of things. It had been pointed out that the average price under the Ashbourne Act was seventeen and a half years' purchase on what was called first-term rents. The first-term rents were supposed to be the net value of the lands at the time of sale. The second-term rents in their turn also became the measure of the test of the value of the land, and on that was based the calculation on which, under the Ashbourne Acts, purchases were made all over the country at seventeen and a half years purchase on first-term rents, yet under this Act the landlords wanted twenty-four, twenty-five and twenty-six years purchase on the second-term rents. In his part of the country they were asking twenty-four, twenty-five, and twenty-six years purchase on the first-term rents, second-term rents not having been fixed. It really came to this, that where land had declined in value, and the actual production of agricultural produce and stock had largely decreased—at times like that the landlords were asking from 40 to 75 per cent. more than was paid under the Ashbourne Acts exclusive of the bonus. That must prove to the satisfaction of the House that the landlords were not anxious to see this

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  measure passed, or, in fact, to bring social law and order into Ireland.
  It was pointed out that the zones system would be availed of in order to make the zones minimum practically the basis of sale all over the country. That view was proved to be accurate. In his opinion unless the Act were amended it would prove a curse rather than a blessing to the people of Ireland. It should be re-membered that under previous Acts, owing to one cause or another, a certain amount of land came into the market year after year, which the tenants were able to buy at reasonable prices. Now, no landlord would think of selling at Ashbourne prices; and therefore if the Act were not amended the last state of things would be worse than the first. The other point insisted upon in the Amendment was that inspection was required for the protection of the British as well as the Irish taxpayer. There was no doubt that astute landlords and agents, dealing with an ignorant and over-anxious tenantry, were driving the tenants into improvident bargains which they would not be able to fulfil if there were a recurrence of a few more years like the last year. That was a very serious condition of things; and therefore the power of inspection should be revived for the protection of the tenants as well as of the general public. It sounded ironical that with a fall in the value of agricultural produce there should be an unnatural increase in the price of land, and that at a time of falling prices and great depression they should have a powerful landlord combination pressing for exorbitant prices. That situation could only be met by the Chief Secretary taking his courage in both hands and amending the Act.
  Then with reference to the congested districts, their condition was one of the most appalling features in the failure of the Act. The examples which had been given by his hon. friend who had just spoken would almost seem to be inconceivable. The Act was passed for the alleviation of poverty and misery, and one of its main features was the division of the large grazing tracts in the west of Ireland. The result now appeared to be that those grazing tracts were to be retained in the hands of the landlords and grazicrs, and that the destitution of the poor people for whom the Act was passed was to be perennial. What was the use of advancing money to purchase a wretched
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  holding on a bog or mountain valued at only £6 or £7? The tenant would only exchange one condition of misery for another; and instead of being a wretched tenant he would become an occupier who would not be able to work out a position of comfort for himself or his family. The Chief Secretary, in introducing the Bill, said that they wanted to secure for the occupier an economic holding on which he could maintain his family and himself. He added that they ought to begin to build up the agrarian situation in Ireland from the bottom, and that he had no doubt that untenanted land would be freely offered for sale. The right hon. Gentleman did not believe that any man with bowels of compassion could act in the arbitrary fashion in which certain landlords were acting in Ireland. On the estate of the O'Connor Don 104 holdings were valued at less than £4, and on the Rockingham estate there were hundreds of holdings valued at less than £5; the grass lands were being retained by the landlords, and the mountain tenants were being asked to become owners of their uneconomic holdings at exorbitant prices. He did not think that the Estates Commissioners should be empowered to sanction any advance in such circumstances, and that it should be made clear that the bonus would be paid on the sale of untenanted land if the land were sold for general subdivision. He could not help contrasting the fears and anxious anticipations of the Irish people at the present time with the hopes they entertained when the Bill was passed through Committee.
  With reference to the evicted tenants, the Chief Secretary would admit that he got every possible assistance from the Irish Members in improving and extending the clauses concerning them; but, with the exception of the Coolgraney evicted tenants, nothing had been done all over the country to restore them. Hope deferred maketh the heart sick; the evicted tenants were anxious to return to a life of industry, and it was pitiable to find that this great Act—and it would be a great Act if it were properly administered—an Act which was passed with the co-operation of all Parties in this House, should be blocked and marred by the cupidity of a short-sighted class in Ireland.
  MR. FIELDsaid he only desired to say that urban

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  districts in Ireland had an almost equal interest in this Act with the agricultural districts, because both the urban and the agricultural districts were inter-dependent. They could not have prosperous cities unless the country were also prosperous; and he, therefore, as one of the Members for Dublin, wished to make it quite clear that the urban constituencies were quite as much interested in the successful working of the Act as were the agricultural constituencies. The history of Ireland showed that ever since the British obtained possession of the country and introduced landlordism, the land system was at the root of every Irish evil. And yet when a Motion was introduced by hon. Members from Ireland, who really represented the aspirations of the Irish people, to amend the Land Act, they found the Conservative Benches and the Liberal Benches empty, and they also found an absence of that sympathetic attention which they were bound to receive from a Government which insisted on governing the country against the will of its inhabitants. The matter was one which would affect the whole future of Ireland, and the Irish Members were entitled to claim the attention of the Government; because unless real business-like attention was given to the matter the Land Act would undoubtedly be a failure. It was an extraordinary fact that the land of Ireland had been cleared of its inhabitants in order that live-stock might be produced mainly for consumption in the English market. A traveller in Belgium would imagine that there were no sheep or cattle in the country, but as a matter of fact Belgium carried three times as many cattle per acre as Ireland where the country was cleared in order to make room for cattle. Would the right hon. Gentlemen on the Treasury Bench who were political economists now take note of that economic argument? He had an intimate acquaintance with the congested districts in the West of Ireland and had driven through them all with Lord Mayor Tallon. He himself was not supposed to be one who was identified with the land war, and he never had the distinction of being in prison, but it was not his fault. He was named as a suspect under the régime of Mr. Forster, and he, with twelve other individuals, built houses on the De Freyne estate, which remained there still
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  as a testimony to their capacity. If any English Member visited the West of Ireland and saw the hovels and mud cabins which the people were obliged to in habit they would undoubtedly return with a different idea of British administration. They would find in the West all the rich land was monopolised by graziers and that the poor people were driven to the bogs, to the edges of the sea, or up the mountains. The land was created for the people, but apparently the British Government could not reconcile that doctrine in Ireland. The result was congestion. It was absolutely impossible for people who lived on small farms to exist in comfort. He hoped the Government, who insisted on governing Ireland against the wishes of the majority of its inhabitants, would recognise its responsibility in this matter. Mr. John Stuart Mill said that a Government which compelled the majority of the inhabitants of a country to leave their country because they could not exist in it, stood condemned in the eyes of the civilised world. He thought that John Stuart Mill was an authority which the Government should respect. He trusted the result of the debate would be to draw from either the Chief Secretary or the Attorney-General an intimation of the intention to pay respect to the suggestion made from the National Benches, so that the Land Act of last session, which was hailed with acclamation from all parts of the House, might have its intentions fulfilled, and thereby lay the foundation for a prosperous and contented Irish nation.
  MR. CULLINANcommented on the absence of representatives of the Irish landlords, and attributed it to the fact that they had the fullest confidence and faith that the Government would protect their interests in that debate. They had indeed every reason to be so satisfied in view of the statement of the Chief Secretary that he proposed to introduce a short Bill to remedy certain defects in the Land Act, although he did not propose to re-open the land question. Evidently the right hon. Gentleman was going to deal with the question of the bonus, in which the tenant had no interest. He ventured to say that if the right hon. Gentleman was going to confine himself to action in the

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  interests of the landlords alone he might just as well leave the Bill as it stood. Why were they discussing that Bill that night? Simply because during the passing of the Bill the right hon. Gentleman declined to accept the views of the representatives of Ireland, who knew how nece-sary it was and how beneficial it would be to settle the land question. He would accept none of their Amendments; he would not listen to their warnings; he dismissed them with his beautiful smile and a gracious waving of the hand, and he led them to believe that the landlords would be perfectly willing to join in his conciliation policy: that the land proprietors would be most eager to rush the cases through the Court, and that all sections would co-operate in making the Bill a success. That, too, was the view which was first obtained in Ireland as a result of the debates in that House. That continued until the landlords' week in August—the Horse Show week—the week when the landlords and their agents assembled to discuss matters in the Kildare Street Club, Dublin. Immediately after that event a deliberate attempt was made to thwart the working of the Bill, and it was said—although ho could not vouch for the accuracy of the statement—that the law officers of the Crown had a finger in the pie. Now writs and processes were being issued, evictions were threatened, and in almost every case in which the tenants had gone into Court and got fair rents fixed, appeals had been forced on them by the landlords—even where the reduction had not amounted to more than 3d. or 4d. per acre, the object of this action being, of course, to intimidate tenants from going into Court at all. Clearly after this meeting in Dublin, to which he had referred, the mask was thrown off and war was declared by the landlord party. There was a body known as the Irish Land Agents' Association—otherwise the Institution of Surveyors—in Dublin, the members of which had entered into a combination among themselves to try and defeat and thwart the Bill in every possible way. The policemen of the right hon. Gentleman were now on their best behaviour; they had given over batoning and bludgeoning in order to find out what the Nationalist organisation was doing, and what prices the tenants were inclined to take for their land. Perhaps, in view of
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  that, the Chief Secretary would also inquire what the members of the Institute of Surveyors were doing in the matter of intimidation. He remembered very well when, during the debates, the hon. Member for East Mayo declared that the provisions of a certain clause would enable the landlords to coerce the tenants into paying exorbitant prices, the hon. and learned Member for York declared that the tryanny was all on the side of the tenants. Events had however, completely falsified that prophecy, and the landlords and agent were using that very clause to coerce the tenants into making unreasonable and improvident bargains and into paying, unjust prices.
  The Bill was piloted through the House of Lords by three Members of the then Cabinet—The Duke of Devonshire, the Marquess of Lansdowne, and Lord Londonderry. What had those noble Lords—each of whom possessed large estates in Ireland—done to give practical effect to the Bill? The Duke of Devonshire had modestly asked his tenants for 26½ years purchase, exclusive of the bonus! Lord Londonderry had made no move, and Lord Lansdowne had more evicted tenants on his estate than any other man. Surely, if the Government had been sincere in the professions of a spirit of conciliation in passing the Bill, they would have taken steps to secure that Members of their own body gave a lead to the rest of the landlords of Ireland. He would like to give one or two other instances of the working of the Act. One landlord whom he knew offered in 1902 to sell the best of his property at twenty years' purchase. Now he offered to sell the worst at 26½ years purchase. Another in 1896–7 offered to sell at eighteen years' purchase; in. 1903 he asked twenty-five years. Another some years ago offered to sell at twenty-two years, and an inspector of the Land Commission refused to sanction the sale because the price was exorbitant; that landlord was now asking 26½ years purchase, with three years bonus. Some satisfactory bargains had no doubt been completed, but in those cases the landlords had negotiated directly with the tenants and had allowed no agents or other interlopers to interfere. He repeated that there was a most deliberate

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  conspiracy in Ireland to thwart the Bill—from the Land Judges down to—
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The hon. Member must not attack the Judges.
  MR. CULLINANsaid he simply wished to point out that the Receivers of the Court were doing everything they possibly could to defeat the Bill, and until the right hon. Gentleman put his foot down on such conduct the measure would not work satisfactorily. If farmers, under the thumb of rack-renting landlords, found that thousands of their neighbours were more fortunately placed, because they had been able to purchase their holdings at fair and reasonable prices, the right hon. Gentleman must not be surprised if they followed the example of the Government and adopted a policy of retaliation. If they did he for one would give them his most strenuous support.
  MR. JOHN REDMONDsaid he was anxious, before the Chief Secretary replied, to address two or three questions to him. He did not propose to make a speech, for several reasons. One was that time was short and he did not want to stand between the House and his colleagues who wished to speak; and further than that he did not think it was necessary for him to attempt to put their case before the Government, because it was put before them with great lucidity, ability, and completeness by the hon. Member for Leitrim, who opened the debate, and if the Chief Secretary heard that speech, then he was in possession of what their case was. He was anxious before the right hon. Gentleman spoke to address two or three questions to him; but first he wished to make one or two preliminary observations of a general character. If he might say so without disrespect, he never heard a more absurd speech than that of the hon. Member for Stoke. That hon. Member went upon the supposition that the Irish Members claimed this Bill last year as a complete and final settlement, not only of the land question, but also of the Irish question. Well, of course, it was in the recollection of the House that they did nothing of the kind. It was within the recollection of the House that
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  they distinctly said that, even if this Bill proved as successful as they all hoped it would, it could not possibly settle the Irish question, and, as far as the land question was concerned, they also safeguarded themselves by stating that in the absence of compulsion in the West of Ireland, and in the absence of other Amendments they considered essential, they did not think it possible that this Bill could provide a complete and final settlement of that question. Equally absurd was the hon. Gentleman's representation of their present action. He seemed to think they had come to the House that night to say that the whole of this Act, after three months working, had proved already a complete and ridiculous failure. That was not their position at all. Their position was between the two, and it was a perfectly reasonable one in view of what had occurred. Let him read two or three words he used on the Third Reading of the Bill just to show the absurdity of the position taken up by the hon. Member for Stoke. He said—
  "In the first place let me say at once that it is not our Bill; it is the Bill of the Government, and the main responsibility for it rests not upon us, but upon the Government. I must point out that the Report of the Land Conference has not been accepted by the Government in its entirety, and this Bill does not represent the Conference Report in some essential particulars, but overrides that Report, and therefore I am justified in saying this is not our Bill, but yours, and that the responsibility is not ours, but yours. Since the Bill has been introduced, the Irish Members have done their best to mould it into a shape by which they believe it will go a long way to settle the land question, and, I believe, so far as they have been able to amend it, it will go a long way; but in whatever particular it is disappointing, it will be found upon the refusal of the direct advice of the Irish Members."
  This was the position in which they stood with reference to this Bill. On the other hand they never for a moment suggested that this Bill provided a complete settlement even of the land question; and they did not come to the House—it would be a ridiculous thing to do—and say after three months trial of the Bill that it was an absolute failure and had proved worthless. His view of this Act had not undergone the slightest change. There were certain drawbacks to its working and defects, but, speaking broadly, his opinion had

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  never changed; it was exactly to-day what it was when the Bill was passed. That is, that he believed it was a measure which, when properly amended, as in his opinion it was certain to be, would eventually lead to the abolition of landlordism in Ireland. He regarded it as a great measure because it was a measure which enacted the abolition of landlordism; it provided the necessary means for that purpose and the machinery for the restoration of the evicted tenants; and under those circumstances he said that his opinion of the measure remained today what it was when it was passed. Unexpected defects had arisen, and these defects were of a very serious character. He was of opinion if those defects were not remedied they would practically block the working of this Act. Apart from that altogether, the process of bargaining had proved more painful and slow than any of them anticipated. He for his part in that respect was greatly disappointed. He was bound to say that his experience of the working of the Act led him to believe that all the reasonableness had been, so far, upon the side of the tenants, and that the unreasonable attitude had in most cases been on the side of the landlords, and that the responsibility rested with them for the friction that had arisen and the delay which was taking place in the bargaining, owing to the excessive prices which were undoubtedly being asked by large numbers of landlords all over the country. Still, in spite of all that, if they could look ahead ten or fifteen years, he was convinced they would find the Act amended, as of course it would be long before then—working satisfactorily, putting an end to landlordism and changing tenants into small owners. He desired to ask the right hon. Gentleman some practical questions. He had told them he was going to intro-duce an amending Bill. When would that Bill be brought in?
  MR. WYNDHAM: Early.
  MR. JOHN REDMONDhoped it would be very early. He hoped it would not be postponed, as the introduction of the Bill last year was postponed, till just; before the Easter recess. They were entitled to have this Bill at once. The
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  second question was—Would that Bill provide a remedy for all those things that were in doubt at the present time? They had been told that it would provide a remedy for the defect disclosed in the judgment of Mr. Justice Ross with reference to the payment of the bonus to the tenant for life. But that was not the most serious defect which had been discovered. He regarded the settlement on the congested estates as the most important part of the Bill, and he wanted to ask whether the amending Bill would set at rest the doubt that had arisen with reference to the powers of the Estates Commissioners in definition of estates, because it was commonly reported in Dublin that the law officers had given an opinion to the effect that where a landlord sold direct to his tenant ail holdings on his property and brought them up to the Estates Commissioners to have the sale sanctioned, the Commissioners would be bound to treat that as an estate and pass and approve the transaction, even though the landlord owned large tracts of grazing land which he refused to sell. There was the most widespread misgiving on the point in Ireland. If it should turn out to be true it would absolutely ruin the value of the Bill in the West of Ireland. The sale of the holdings without the grazing land so far from being a benefit, would be a curse. Doubt had arisen upon another point, with reference to payment of the bonus in the case of the sale of certain untenanted lands to the Commissioners. There was no doubt that where a landlord sold both the tenanted and untenanted portions of his estate, the bonus might be paid on the untenanted land, but he wanted to know whether, where the landlord sold only the untenanted land without any of the holdings, the right hon. Gentleman had been advised that the bonus could not be paid. He need not point out what a serious thing that would be. Would the Bill be in such a form as would enable Irish Members to raise, by way of Amendment or new clause, such questions as compulsion for the congested districts—the constituents of the Congested Districts Board—and the zones? The Chief Secretary the other night seemed to be of opinion that by some ingenious device he might so

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  contract the Bill as to prevent the possibility of them raising any questions except those narrow points that he desired to amend himself. He urged the right hon. Gentleman not to take that course. By suggesting these Amendments they would not want to reopen the whole Irish land question. They wanted to concentrate themselves upon two or three of these important questions. It would be most unwise to attempt by any ingenious device to confine the debate to the two or three points which the right hon. Gentleman had mentioned. To hint even at interfering with the passage of the amending Bill was a serious thing; but Irish Members took such a serious view of these other defects, believing that unless they are dealt with the Bill for years to come would be a failure in the congested districts, that he felt bound to tell the right hon. Gentleman that if he attempted to confine his measure to these questions they would feel it their duty in the interests generally of the tenants to see that no measure of that kind for the relief of one particular class of the landlords was allowed to pass unless they had a fair opportunity of raising all those other points which they considered to be of the utmost importance.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid that the hon. Member for Stoke-upon-Trent was mistaken in supposing that he or the hon. and learned Member for Waterford or the Prime Minister or anyone else had asserted that the passing of the Land Act of last year would settle all questions of controversy between this country and Ireland.
  MR. COGHILL: It was certainly accepted in that belief by the great bulk of Members on this side of the House.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid the two occasions when such declarations might be expected to have been made were the Second Reading and the Third Reading. On the Second Reading he said—
  "We are asked, Will you settle the land question—will you settle the Irish question? Sir, I do not know."
  And the Prime Minister on the Third Reading said—
  "A settlement of the Irish land question makes it far more probable that we should be
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  able to discuss and consider the many questions—constitutional, political, and religious, racial and financial—upon which, in the past, discussion has been so acrimonious, with a chance of an unbiassed mind."
  The hon. and learned Member for Water-ford had asked when they would introduce the amending Bill. At the earliest possible moment, and subject only to financial obligations and Imperial necessities. He had no reason to believe that the Bill would be introduced at a late date. A second question asked was, Would it provide a remedy for all the alleged ambiguities?—that was the phrase he chose, because there had been an amount of rumour and gossip in Ireland which certainly exceeded his anticipation. He did not complain, for if they attempted to settle the land question by a loan of £100,000,000 and a grant of £12,000,000, thus affecting the interests, not only of the landlord, but of the tenant, naturally everybody would speculate as to whether things had been definitely and conclusively decided. Therefore he could not quite answer that question. His view was that he ought to decide in an amending Bill all the alleged ambiguities which he thought could reasonably occur to any sensible man in the country. If he were to attempt in an amending Bill to settle all the ambiguities which had been suggested it would be almost as long as the original Act. He was asked, Was there any doubt of the powers of the Estates Commissioners to define an estate? On the whole he thought not, but there might be ambiguity in some directions. The same question was put to him by the hon. Member for South Tyrone, who asked whether, if a landlord with a number of uneconomic holdings, who was also in possession of a large amount of untenanted land, submitted a bargain for the sale of the tenanted land to the Estates Commissioners, were they bound to define it as an estate? He said clearly they were not. He had not a shadow of doubt on that point.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELLsaid that would remove a great difficulty.
  MR. CULLINAN: They are not bound to, but may they?
  MR. WYNDHAM: There is no ambiguity in this Act which would prevent them from exercising the discretionary powers vested in them under this Act.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELL: It is in their discretion.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Certainly. There was not a shadow of doubt on his mind, and that was a point which he did not think need be dealt with. If, however, he was advised that there were doubts which ought to be allayed, that would be another matter. He had no doubt himself that the Commissioners were not bound to pass such an estate, and if they did their duties under the Act they would be bound in such a case to represent that a certain amount of untenanted land should be put into the pool. It must be a matter of discretion. The amount of available untenanted land varied in different parts of Ireland, and it would be unfair to penalise a landlord or his tenant if the former had not the necessary untenanted land at his disposal. It would then be the duty of the Estates Commissioners to endeavour, by purchasing untenanted land elsewhere, to remedy this economic defect. The greatest tribute he had ever received was the assumption which appeared to have been made that this Act ought to have settled the whole of the difficulties in three months. Of course that was quite absurd.
  MR. JOHN REDMONDasked whether the right hon. Gentleman had not received legal opinion to the effect that the Commissioners would be bound in such a case to accept the untenanted land as an estate.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he must be excused from going into the advice which might or might not have been given him by the law officers. He had, however unguardedly given him a negative answer on the point he had raised. The next specific question was whether the bonus would be paid on untenanted land which was sold with tenanted land. That could be done in his opinion, but there was a doubt which ought to be removed. Then came the question whether the amending Bill would be drawn in such a form as to enable or facilitate the
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  raising of all the points referred to in the Amendment now before the House. For the reasons he would presently submit, he thought that would be a mistake, and he did not propose to draft the Bill in that form. Turning to the Amendment before the House he thought the ground had been fully covered by the lucid speech of the mover, so that it would be well to follow the points as raised by the hon. Member. The first was that it might be considered inopportune and unnecessary to bring forward this Amendment, seeing that the Act had been in operation only three months. He thought it was unnecessary because he doubted whether the suggested Amendments would accelerate the pace or diminish the cost of the working of the Act. As to its being inopportune it was inopportune in the sense that three months was a very short period in the life of such an Act and that the experimental stage could not be said to be over. But from another point of view it was by no means inopportune. He welcomed the opportunity of saying what had been happening under the Act. Great interest was evidenced in England in regard to the matter, as was shown by the fact that in the same week one gentleman assured him the Act was working at such a pace that a demand for £50,000,000 in one year would be irresistible, and another declared that the transactions were so impeded that the country was on the verge of a period of agrarian discontent comparable with that which all remembered and deplored. The fact that such extremes of opinion were held showed there was need of guidance. The mover of the Amendment had stated that the intention of Parliament was that there should be a transfer of land to the occupiers on terms fair to both landlord and tenant, that the evicted tenants should be dealt with, and a cure found for congestion. Well, there had been some 3,000 holdings sold for £1,500,000; that was on the average £500 a holding, and that did not suggest that the Act was being used merely to assist the purchase of large farms by comparatively opulent men. He expressed his regret that he was not able to supply Mr. Redmond with statistical information. He was only able to approach him with meagre information. He had a decided opinion that he ought

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  not to have encouraged the Estate-Commissioners to forego their arduous administrative labours in order to supply him with a debating case upon the Address. The hon. Member's argument was that the value of land was going down in Ireland. He was not going to quarrel with him on that point, but he would remind the hon. Member that in the earlier discussions on the question of purchase most of them were, in agreement that the volume of purchase under the old Acts was decreasing in amount, and that the prices in terms of years purchase were increasing. He doubted whether the Land Conference would have been held but for the presence of these two facts. During the discussion over the land question he had never made himself responsible for expressing an opinion as to what the price of Irish land should be, and he was not going to do so now. The best advice on this point was to be found in the Conference Report, which assserted general principles and left their application to the parties who knew all the circumstances of the case. The averages varied in every province of Ireland—in every estate and in different holdings of that estate, and. therefore, to proceed on the principle of averages was to adopt a very rough-and-ready manner indeed. It had been suggested by the hon. Member for South Tyrone that the people of Ulster would not do badly if they purchased on terms which gave them a reduction of Is. in the £, but the circumstances were different in every locality, and almost in the case of every individual. One landlord would not sell cheaper than the Act, and on the other hand, there were tenants who could afford to give a better price, and would sooner do that than postpone the moment at which they became owners. Again, there were tenants who did not feel that they could undertake such a serious obligation unless they saw reasonable prospects of paying the instalments for a number of years.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELLsaid that he had alway contended that estates differed, and he thought, as a whole, that the tenants would be safe if they bought with 4s. in the £ reduction on second-term rents. He did not say that there were not estates where the might be able to
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  pay more, but he had always taken into account the differences that might exist.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid that was precisely what he intended to convey. They all admitted that there were exceptions both ways, and that was the principle embodied in the Report of the Land Conference. The hon. Member for Waterford gave them excellent advice in his speech at Newcastle, County Down, when he urged the tenants not to lose the chance of becoming the owners of the soil upon any small trivial or insignificant point, and not to enter into negotiations in a hostile, but in a conciliatory spirit. He agreed with that advice, for he thought it was very excellent. After all there was not so much in dispute. The hon. Member who moved this Amendment said that in his opinion the prices arrived at were too high. He was not going to express any opinion upon prices, because it was not for the author of an Act to lay down a standard of prices. The mover of this Amendment attributed the prices which had been given under the Land Act to the zones, but he differed from that contention altogether. They discussed the question of zones for many days last year, and during the discussion the hon. Member for Cork said he did not agree that minute inspection was a very useful matter. On the 15th of June the hon. Member said—
  "Minute inspection and valuation of over 300,000 holdings would have to be made, with the result that a generation would pass away before any general transfer of land was effected."
  He invited the attention of hon. Members opposite to that point. Proceeding, the hon. Member went on to say that inside the zones it was quite necessary that some inspection should take place to ascertain that there was no subletting and other securities, but all this could be rapidly and efficiently done by men of the surveyor class, which would not involve a system of inspection by highly-paid officials to report upon security and price. Of course any Land Bill must be a compromise, but the main thing to the tenant was the substantial reduction he got upon the second-term rent he has paid. There was nothing in the Amendment for the security

  329
  of the taxpayer of this country, because his security depended not upon the capital that passed, but the margin between the instalments paid to the State and the fair rent fixed by the judicial Court—a rent elaborately arrived at in order to determine whether land could or could not, taking good with bad years, pay a certain sum for a period of fifteen years. Their view was that it was legitimate to shorten the time, and to say that 2s. less than that was a good enough security for them. To shorten time in another way they said that 4s. less than that might be passed without allowing any option to any other party interested to interfere in any way. Cases would readily occur to hon. Members of this kind, in which an old man, who was the owner of the property, might sell for a sons, without having due regard to the interests of others. They provided against that by an inferior limit to these reductions, and they said that on second-term rents if the reduction was lower than 4s. there should be some investigation, in order to see that neither of the parties were injured. Those terms were accepted by all parties interested on the 14th of July. It was accepted not only by the hon. and learned Member opposite but by other Members of his Party, who perhaps did not share so fully his anticipation of the success of the Land Act. He might take, for example, the hon. Member for East Mayo, who agreed that they had met hon. Members opposite half-way at least. He was not going to say whether he attached much importance to the zones or not. He did not wish to press this point in a controversial spirit, but after a long and anxious debate they all agreed that that was a compromise which might stand. Supposing the zones were of great value, or little value, he did not care which, they had no effect on
  330
  prices, but even if they had, was it not unwise to disturb such a compromise so arrived at, and to court, as they did, by such an act of disturbance, a feeling on the part of the other parties that all idea of security must be abandoned? Hon. Members opposite spoke with a knowledge of their own districts. In any one district it was clear that there must have been many abortive negotiations; but if they took the country as a whole they would find that the operation of the Act was. proceeding as fast, he would not say as anyone could desire, but as fast as anyone could finance it. He claimed that so far as the Government were concerned they carried out their share of the compromise, and as far as possible the additional recommendations made by hon. Members opposite. And in order not to disturb the sense of security which still did obtain in Ireland he would ask hon. Members to think once and twice before they suggested the re-opening of a compromise definitely arrived at after prolonged debate within three months of the day on which the Act came into operation.
  He would now give some information as to what was going on in Ireland. The total amount of direct sales embraced 135 estates, 3,070 holdings, and £1,500,000 of purchase-money. In correction of false estimates which had been given of the money which passed in connection with the sale of the Leinster Estate, he would say that the purchase money was £640,000, and the bonus was some £170,000. It was difficult to collect all the information asked for, but inquiries had been instituted at random into 1,580 cases of sales. Of holdings upon which rents had been fixed before August, 1896, there were 580, the reduction had

  331
  been 29·4 and the average number of years' purchase had been 21·7. Of holdings upon which rents had been fixed since August, 1896, there had been 728, and the average reduction had been 19·7. That was very near the mean, but that was an accident. One feature in the first clause of the Act to which he invited attention was that a distinction was made between judicial rents and non-judicial rents. Of holdings upon which no judicial rent had been fixed there were 543, and the average reduction in those cases had been 30·7. He did not think he would be justified in going at great length into arithmetical calculations; but supposing such results were normal it would pay a man in Con-naught to buy on those averages, even if he had a first-term rent, rather than wait to have a second-term rent fixed.
  He would now deal with the question of untenanted land. The Amendment suggested that the Estates Commissioners had not sufficient power to purchase untenanted land. Strongly as he objected to the principle of compulsion, deeply as he believed it would disturb the spirit of conciliation now existing in Ireland—[A NATIONALIST MEMBER: Where is the conciliation by the landlords?]—Well, perhaps he might be permitted to waive that, and to say that he did not think it was necessary at this moment to suggest that the powers for securing untenanted land were ineffective. The procedure under the Act was entirely novel, and it was hardly possible in three months to devise a staff organisation to get into touch with all the untenanted lands that might possibly be bought. There were many difficulties in the way of working this Act, but he had not found that the absence of compulsory powers was one of them. It was of the
  332
  essence of the Act that where that was possible they should look rather to direct arrangements between the landlord and his tenants and others who might wish to occupy untenanted land. They could not expect that men would take up in three months an entirely novel process and devise a completely new manner of managing their estates. In the circumstances he thought the results were fairly good. He had a list of twenty-two estates, and he found that the landlords had made arrangements for selling 7,650 acres of untenanted land to persons mentioned in Section 2 of the Act or to the Commissioners for the purposes of the Act.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: How many of these estates are in Con-naught?
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid his information on that point would come in better when he was dealing with the purchases by the Congested Districts Board, but some of these were in Connaught. Besides these estates there were some which had been sold under Sections 7 and 8—that was entirely untenanted land—to the Estates Commissioners under the Act. He would point out to hon. Members opposite that the question of congestion could not be dealt with on the lines which were advocated in this Amendment. It was suggested that all defined as "congested estates" must of necessity be sold to the Estates Commissioners and ought not to be dealt with by voluntary arrangement between the landlord and the tenants on the property. If they succeeded in carrying the Amendment they would

  333
  largely limit and paralyse the operation of the Act. Over and over again it would be found that one landlord owned a large property, part of which was composed of very rich large farms, part of fairly good farms, and part rushy and mountainous land. An estate of that character could not be dealt with on any uniform plan. They must not fetter the discretion of the Estates Commissioners before the Act had had a fair trial. Suppose he did accept the Amendment, which, of course, he could not do, and declared that all congested estates should be sold to the Commissioners, there might be estates a portion of which only was congested. That portion would have to be sold to the Commissioners and the rest would be left to be disposed of by direct sale. They must leave to the landlords a chance of solying these problems. As to the case of the evicted tenants, he had been asked whether money could be advanced under the Act as a free gift to put back evicted tenants. All he could say was that there was no more money now and no greater limitation on the use of the money. He had never had any doubt in his mind on the point; but he must not be held to say that there was an unlimited amount of money to give to people who could borrow. The hon. Member for South Tyrone had asked whether the amending Bill would be retrospective. That would be so. With regard to sales in Ulster, better news had reached him than had reached the hon. Member for South Tyrone. He knew very well large estates in Ulster which were going to be sold in the near future, and he believed the sale of them would determine the sale of others. The Bill was accepted to be worked and given a fair chance. He did not complain of the
  334
  Amendment, which afforded an opportunity of seeing how things were going on, but three months was a very short time, and he recommended hon. Members to give the Act a rather longer run. There had been no occasion so far for advocating compulsory sale in the congested districts. The Act had only been in operation since December, and the Congested Districts Board had purchased seven estates for £156,900; it was in negotiation for the purchase of six estates for £100,672, and it was considering the purchase of sixty other estates. Could anyone suppose that with compulsory powers they could secure the purchase in even six months of more than seventy estates? In the purchases already completed they had got more untenanted land than tenanted land. They had bought 2,300 acres of untenanted land, they were negotiating for 1,600 acres more, and were having reports made respecting 15,000 acres. What good would compulsory powers have been to them? The mere mention of compulsory powers would make every landlord of untenanted land draw back into his shell. On the other hand, they had had no difficulty in buying untenanted land suited to their needs: and he had no doubt that, when the owners of grass land knew that they were to be paid a fair price, such land would come more rapidly into the market, and they would proceed apace with the solution of the difficult question of congestion. Compulsory power, so far from helping them, would lead to loss of time, of temper, and to the breaking up of the general agreement that existed that they should deal not only with the transfer of land to the occupier, but with the problem of the evicted tenants, and with congestion. At the present rate of progress it would

  335
  be a severe task upon him to see that the financial limit of £5,000,000 was not exceeded in one year; and in the present state of the money market it would not be possible to ask for more than £5,000,000. Indeed, prudence dictated that they should take less, but a bargain was a bargain. He said they would finance land purchase at that rate for the first three years, and he stood by his part of the bargain. Land purchase was going on as rapidly as one could expect it to go within the financial limit he had laid down, and surely if differences existed on this or that thorny question they might be allowed to wait for six months, or even one or two years, and be settled by the general spirit of conciliation. He thought that they might all congratulate themselves that the Bill had been brought in last year instead of this. They seized the occasion which the Land Conference offered. In December, 1902, Consols were at ninety-two and a-half, in January last at ninety-three, and on 16th February at ninety-two and three-quarters. Now Consols stood at eighty-six and a-half, so that had the Land Conference not occurred last year, the fall in Consols would have made it impossible to bring in a Bill this year. They should make the best of the chance that had befallen them, and agree that in the Act there was still to be found elements which might conduce to a fuller and richer national life in Ireland, and to a more complete accord among all classes in that country.
  SIR EDWARD GREYsaid he did not propose to attempt to follow the right hon. Gentleman in the technical merits of the ques-
  336
  tion. That he would leave to those who might be better informed on these points than he was. Speaking from the point of view of the British taxpayer, he confessed he was not at all discouraged in regard to the working of the Land Act. Even the hon. Member for Stoke, who posed as the representative of the British taxpayer, admitted that it was better for the taxpayer that the Act should be a success than a failure; and as hon. Members came from Ireland and proposed certain Amendments, which they affirmed would ensure the success of the Act without entailing the voting of more money, the hon. Member for Stoke ought to have jumped to those Amendments. But the hon. Member took too narrow a view. While he made himself partly responsible for the Government of Ireland, he must take the view of a statesman as well as that of a British taxpayer. The hon. Gentleman made the attempt to be a statesman, and asked what was the return to be for all this money; was it to be the increased prosperity of Ireland? There was a general confession that the dual system of land ownership had paralysed the prosperity of Ireland, and it was also a general confession that the evils of the Irish land system had been due to the mistakes of the British Parliament. If all this was to be put right, the increased prosperity of Ireland and the enjoyment of a better conscience, would amply repay the British taxpayer for any sacrifices he had made. He agreed entirely with what had been said by the hon. Member for Waterford as to the limitation of the hopes to be founded on the working of the Act. It had never been put forward as a final settlement of all outstanding questions,

  337
  certainly never by the Chief Secretary. It might be that it would have an effect on political movements in Ireland; it might be that it would unite classes hitherto divided; it might be that it would disentangle political questions from future controversies about land, and bring about a calm and reasonable way of discussing these questions. That might be, and he hoped it would be. But no one would be aggrieved if it did less. The Act was not intended as a final settlement, but only as the great beginning of the settlement of the land question; and many things had to be left out of it last year because it was undesirable to overload it. The Chief Secretary had said that three months after the Act came into operation was too soon to consider its Amendment; but he then proceeded to promise that on an early day he would introduce a Bill to make some Amendments! Therefore, the difference between the Chief Secretary and the Irish Members was not one of principle or time, but only one of degree. He did not intend to enter into technical points, but he had been impressed by the remarks of several hon. Members from Ireland as to the apparent rise in the price of land, or the price expected for land. He could not help thinking that there was a possibility of the zones system resulting in defeating the successful working of the Act, because that system might induce people to stand out for a higher price. The question of price was of the very essence of the working of the Act, and he had always felt that sooner or later a larger measure of compulsion would be required to complete the work of the Act.
  THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir EDWARD CARSON,): No, no!
  SIR EDWARD GREYsaid that the Solicitor-General for England said "No, no!" to that, but he went further. He considered that the provision of a cheaper and more rapid method of working a compulsory system of land purchase was to be desired and expected not only of Ireland but for home as well. That was one of the problems we would have to solve soon. He thought that before they completed and settled the Irish system they would have at any rate to keep an open mind with regard to the introduction of compulsion. He did not wish to hustle the Chief Secretary, if he might use a fashionable phrase, but he did feel that steady pressure was justifiable and desirable; and he was not sure that the Chief Secretary himself did not feel that steady pressure sometimes strengthened his own hands. He looked upon the Act of last session—and he gave the Chief Secretary and the Government full credit for it—as a great beginning, but it was not yet the end. The Government had it in trust to see that the Act was a success. He was not surprised that experience had already suggested some Amendments to that Act. He hoped experience would suggest further Amendments. He trusted that the Chief Secretary would keep an open mind with regard to future Amendments while he was in office, because he was sure that his own Government or any future Government would have to introduce further Amendments from time to time in the working of the Act, and he hoped he would

  339
  carry that open mind with him if it ever should be his fate to cross the floor of the House and give a frank and sympathetic support to the Amendments which might come from the Government which succeeded him.
  MR. T. P. O'CONNORsaid he felt it almost a rudeness to try and wake up the House from the dream which the eloquence of the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary was calculated to excite. The whole tone of the speech of the right hon. Centleman showed an absolute want of appreciation of the real state of Ireland at the present moment. They had been accustomed to Chief Secretaries of all Parties coming to the House and picturing Ireland as a perfect Paradise of almost unbroken peace on the very eve of an outbreak of agrarian discontent. He warned the House that they should not regard Ireland from the point of view of the lotus-eater, but study the real conditions of the country. They had had a most disastrous season. He believed that in England the land question would be settled, on right and just lines, by a compromise on the part of both tenants and landlords. On the other hand, in Ireland the landlord was the spoilt child of legislation, though the hon. Gentleman opposite would say that they were the despoiled children of legislation. But it required all the machinery of agitation and courts of law to compel them to give the reduction of rent which every decent landlord here gave to his tenants. By last year's Act the Irish landlords were actually paid for selling their land at a very good price. If any landlord in England was offered
  340
  a price for his land equal to 90 per cent. of the gross rental, he would at once jump at it, and invest the money in industrial enterprises in this country. At the present moment the landlords of Ireland, instead of meeting the situation caused by the disastrous season in a reasonable manner, were offering their land for sale at zones prices, which no tenant ought to entertain, and which no tenant would entertain unless he took leave of his senses. Arrears were playing their ancient part in Ireland, and their old friend the hanging gale had once more raised his sinister head, and was being used by the landlord for the purpose of extracting an extravagant price from the tenant. All over the country there was a feeling of disappointment at the working of the Act, and of strong indignation against the landlords. The right hon Gentleman the Chief Secretary said he had nothing to do with the price. Was the right hon. Gentleman not the author of the zones section of the Act? The zones were in the Act for the purpose of inflating the price in Ireland. Members on these Benches had told the right hon. Gentleman so last year till they almost imperilled the Bill. When the right hon. Gentleman put up his blunder bus at their heads, what choice had they but to accept what he offered? Three or four years ago a landlord went to the Land Commission and said that he and his tenants had agreed that his estate should be sold for eighteen years purchase, but the Land Commission declared that they would not sanction eighteen years purchase, because it was unfair to the tenants and to the estate. Now, however, the same landlord was asking

  341
  twenty-five years purchase. The Chief Secretary had said that he was going to bring in a Bill, the scope of which most of them regarded as mainly to the advantage of the landlord, and he announced that the Bill would be in such a shape as to preclude the discussion of the interests
  of the tenant. These declarations compelled the Irish Members to divide.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes. 124; Noes, 219. (Division List No. 5).

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Hardie, J. Keir (M'rthyr Tydvil)

  O'Mara, James

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Ambrose, Robert

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Shee, James John

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H.

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Bell, Richard

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Reddy, M.

  Blake, Edward

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Boland, John

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Brigg, John

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Joyce, Michael

  Rigg, Richard

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Burns, John

  Kilbride, Denis

  Roche, John

  Caldwell, James

  Labouchere, Henry

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Lambert, George

  Rose, Charles Day

  Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.

  Russell, T. W.

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington)

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Lough, Thomas

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Lundon, W.

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Crean, Eugene

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Shackleton, David James

  Crooks, William

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Cullinan, J.

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Delany, William

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Sheehy, David

  Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

  M'Kean, John

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Doogan, P. C.

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Duffy, William J.

  Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.)

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R (Northants

  Ellice, Capt E.C (S Andrw'sBghs

  Mooney, John J.

  Sullivan, Donal

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Murphy, John

  Thomas, D. Alfred (Merthyr)

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Nolan, Col. J. P. (Galway, N.)

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Ffrench, Peter

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Wason, Jn. Cathcart (Orkney)

  Field, William

  O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary, M.

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Wood, James

  Gilhooly, James

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

  Young, Jamuel

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert Jn.

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick)

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan.

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  O'Dowd, John

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.)

  Hammond, John

  O'Malley, William

  NOES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Allhusen, Augustus Hen. Eden

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Bignold, Arthur

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Balcarres, Lord

  Bigwood, James

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Balfour, Capt, C. B. (Hornsey)

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds)

  Bowles, Lt.-Col. H. F (Middlesex

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Arrol, Sir William

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Bartley, Sir George C. T.

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Mich. Hicks

  Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh.)

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Heath, James (Staffords., N.W.

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Butcher, John George

  Helder, Axigustus

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H.

  Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.)

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Purvis, Robert

  Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Pym, C. Guy

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hope, J.F (Sheffield, Brightside

  Randles, John S.

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Hoult, Joseph

  Rankin, Sir James

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A (Worc.

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Chapman, Edward

  Hunt, Rowland

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Charrington, Spencer

  Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.)

  Ridley, Hn. M. W.(Stalybridge

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Roberts, Jamuel (Sheffield)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Kerr, John

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Keswick, William

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Kimber, Henry

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Davenport, William Bromley

  Lawrence, Sir J. (Monmouth)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Denny, Colonel

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Dewar, Sir T.R (Tower Hamlets

  Lawson, John G. (Yorks., N. R.

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham)

  Smith, H. C (North'mb. Tynesid

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph C

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Spear, John Ward

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Long, Rt. Hn. W.(Bristol, S.)

  Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lancs.)

  Durnins-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Lowe, Francis William

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Stock, James Henry

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Maclver, David (Liverpool)

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G (Oxf'd Univ.

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Fison, Frederick William

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Tuff, Charles

  Forster, Henry William

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S.W.)

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Fyler, John Arthur

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Maxwell, W. J. H (Dumfriessh.

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Gardner, Ernest

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E(Taunton

  Garfit, William

  Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G.

  Whiteley, H.(Ashton und.Lyne

  Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.

  Mitchell, William (Burnley)

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Gordon, Hn. J. E (Elgin&Nairn)

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.)

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.

  Greene, Sir E. W (B'rySEdm'nds

  Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

  Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H.(Yorks.)

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R.(Bath

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Wolff, Gustay Wilhelm

  Gretton, John

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart

  Groves, James Grimble

  Mount, William Arthur

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Wylie, Alexander

  Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nderry

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford)

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

  Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Percy, Earl

  Main Question again proposed.
  And, it being after Midnight, the debate stood adjourned.
  Debate to be resumed to-morrow.
  Adjourned at ten minutes after Twelve o'clock.