Commons Sitting of 15 August 1904

Preamble
The House met at Five of the Clock.
PETITIONS.
  LICENSING BILL.
  Petitions against; from Branston; Sleaford; and Tattershall Bridge; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  [BENEFICES ACT, 1898.
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 12th August; Lord Hugh Cecil]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 366.]
  EDUCATION (IRELAND) (COMMISSIONERS' ORDERS).
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 11th August; Mr. Boland]; to lie, upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 367.]
  INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION (IRELAND).
  Copy presented, of Rule made by the Intermediate Education Board for Ireland for the Examination in Music [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION (IRELAND).
  Copy presented, of additional Rule mad by the Intermediate Education Board for Ireland as to the French Course [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACT, 1888.
  Copies presented, of Orders made by the various County and County Borough Councils in England and Wales under Sections 57 and 59 of the Act, as confirmed by the Local Government Board [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS.
  Mr. SPEAKER Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table, General Index to the Bills, Reports, Estimates, and Accounts and Papers printed by Order of the House of Commons, and to the Papers presented by Command, 1890 to 1899; to be printed. [No. 368.]

  MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
  That they have agreed to—Shop Hours Bill; Outdoor Relief (Friendly Societies) (No. 2) Bill; Education (Local Authority Default) Bill; Expiring Laws Continuance Bill; Reformatory and Industrial Schools (Scotland) Bill; Indian Councils Bill; Weights and Measures Bill; Bishoprics of Southwark and Birmingham Bill; Anglo-French Convention Bill; Isle of Man (Customs) Bill; Irish Land Bill; Prisons (Scotland) Bill; Public Works Loans Bill; Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill; Cunard Agreement (Money) Bill; Capital Expenditure (Money) Bill; County of Suffolk Bill; Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Order (No. 5) Bill; Post Office Sites Bill, without Amendment.
  Amendments to—Prevention of Cruelty to Children (Amendment) Bill [Lords], without Amendment.
  Amendment to—Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill [Lords], without Amendment.
  Amendment to Amendments to—Licensing Bill, without Amendment. And do not insist on their Amendments to the Bill to which this House has disagreed.
  Wireless Telegraphy Bill, with Amendment.

  WIRELESS TELEGRAPHY BILL.
  Lords Amendments to be considered forthwith; considered, and agreed to.
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Erection of New School at Drumglass.
  MR. CHARLES CRAIG: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury when the revised plans, which the committee of the proposed new school at Drumglass, Dungannon, county Tyrone, have been waiting for for over eighteen months, will be ready.
  (Answered by Mr. Victor Cavendish.) I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer given to him by the Chief Secretary for Ireland on the 4th instant as to the facts in this case.† The general question of revised plans is being considered with the other matters alluded to in Mr. Dale's Report [Cd. 1981].

  Sphere Allotted to England in Macedonia.
  MR. MOON: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why the sphere allotted to England in Macedonia is so much smaller than that allotted to the other Powers, viz., containing, in the matter of population, approximately, one-seventh of that in the French sphere, one-fifth of that in the Russian sphere, one-fourth of that in the Italian sphere, and one-tenth of that in the Austro-Hungarian sphere, and, in point of area, approximately, one-fifth of the French area, one-seventh of the Russian area, one-fourth of the Italian area, and one-fourth of the Austro-Hungarian area.
  (Answered by Earl Percy.) The area of the sphere allotted to Great Britain is
  †See (4) Debates, cxxxix., 990.
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  1,580 square miles and not 1,080 as stated in a previous Answer. The distribution of the areas was governed by considerations of administrative convenience and arranged by the Gendarmerie an Commission consisting of the oreign staff officers and presided over by General de Giorgis. In view of the paramount importance of arriving at a prompt solution of the question, the various Powers endeavoured as far as possible to meet each other's wishes. An equalisation of areas on the basis of population and geographical extent would have been hardly practicable, and the British officers have ample scope for their labours in the district assigned to them.

  Stoning of Rev. Father M'Brien at Cookstown.
  MR. DOOGAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland who supplied him with the inaccurate information with reference to the stoning of the Rev. Father M'Brien, at Cookstown, on the 1st August; whether facilities will be given to identify the constable who failed in his duty to report to his superiors that the rev. gentleman was insulted and threatened on his journey, and apprehensive of personal violence when returning by the same road to his home; whether, in consideration of the excitement in the town on the occasion, and seeing that on this road Canon Rice, parish priest of Cookstown, and two nuns were stoned last year and several Catholics since, he will explain why no patrol was placed on the road between Cookstown and Stewartstown; whether he is aware that Father M'Brien has written to the district inspector disclaiming the statement attributed to him that his assailants consisted of six or eight boys and girls only, and asking for a full inquiry into all the circumstances of the case; and whether such inquiry will be made.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The information upon which I based my reply to the hon. Member's previous Question of the 8th instant was supplied by the district inspector at Cookstown. The Rev. Mr. M'Brien has communicated with him in the sense mentioned, and

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  full inquiry will be made into the matter referred to in that communication.

  Captain and Crew of the "Knight Commander."
  MR. BOUSFIELD: To ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he can give any further information as to the captain and crew of the "Knight Commander;" whether they are kept at Vladivostock as prisoners; and, if so, whether he is in a position to take any steps to secure their release and to facilitate their return to this country.
  (Answered by Mr. A. J. Balfour.) In answer to my hon. friend I have to say that we are informed by His Majesty's Ambassador at St Petersburg that the crew of the "Knight Commander" have been released, and that every facility has been accorded to them. There is no ground for doubting that the term crew includes both officers and men; but special inquiries are being made.

  The Indian Council.
  MR. T. L. CORBETT: To ask the Secretary of State for India if he will state what is the number of members of the Indian Council; whether it is proposed to reduce the number; and whether there is any precedent for one of the members undertaking employment for an indefinite period under another department of the State without first resigning his position as a member of the Indian Council.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The number of members of the Council of India was formerly fifteen; but under the Act 52 and 53 Vie., c. 65, it may be gradually reduced to ten; by the exercise of this power it has been reduced to twelve, at which figure it now stands. There is at least one precedent for one of the members undertaking employment under another Department of the State, for a period not strictly defined, without resigning his membership of Council. I refer to Sir James Mackay's recent Mission to China.

  Promotion of National School Teachers in County Down
  MR. MACVEAGH: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieuten-
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  ant of Ireland whether he can state if any national teachers in the counties of Down and Antrim have been promoted from second grade to second division of first grade on three reports of good, as indicating progress of pupils.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.): In the case of one teacher in county Down, whose school was noted at first as "Good" by the inspector in three successive years on forms of report not providing for the term "Very Good" as regards progress of the school, it was decided that the reports were of such a character as to warrant promotion in accordance with the standard laid down by the Commissioners. But apart from this case no teacher, the official record of whole school, as regards the progress of pupils, was of the nature indicated in the Question, has received promotion from second grade to second division of first grade.

  Extension of Urban Districts in England and Wales.
  MR. FULLER: To ask the hon. Member for North Huntingdonshire, as representing the Board of Agriculture, whether he will state to what extent, in rateable value and in acreage, the total area under the jurisdiction of the rural sanitary authorities has been reduced by the formation and extension of urban districts in England and Wales between 1873 and 1903.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) My hon. friend has asked me to reply to this Question. The returns made to my Department do not enable me to say to what extent the rateable value and acreage of rural districts have been reduced by the extension of urban districts between 1873 and 1903. A statement could be prepared from the returns showing to what extent the reduction is due to the formation of new urban districts between these dates, and if the hon. Member would wish to have this partial information, I will, on hearing from him to this effect, cause it to be got out and sent to him. I could also give him the acreage of rural districts in 1881 and 1903, respectively. If, however, his object is to obtain a comparison of the rateable value of lands at

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  some such interval as that to which he refers, I would draw his attention to the Return as to Rateable Property (England and Wales) made to the House of Lords in 1900, Parliamentary Paper No. 150.

  Report of Superintendent of Sorting Office, Dublin, on Witholding of Increased Salary from Sub-Postmasters.
  MR. NANNETTI: To ask the Postmaster-General if he will state on what date was the report, made on the 5th of May, 1903, by a superintendent of the Sorting Office Dublin, ascribing to design and fraud the withholding of increases of salary which had accrued to five town sub-postmasters, submitted to his predecessor; and what were the respective salaries of the town sub-postmasters of Harcourt Road and Harcourt Street, Dublin, when the clerical error which is alleged as the reason for the nonpayment of the increase of salary at the former office was made.
  (Answered by Lord Stanley.) The report referred to by the hon. Member was laid before my predecessor on the 27th of May, 1903, and again on the 20th of July, 1903. The respective salaries of the town sub-postmasters at Harcourt Road and Harcourt Street, Dublin, at the time alluded to by the hon. Member were £41 14s. and £17 12s.

  Tunbridge Wells Telephone Service— Stamp Duties.
  MR. GRIFFITH BOSCAWEN: To ask the Postmaster-General whether, seeing that under the deed transferring the Tunbridge Wells Municipal Telephone undertaking to the National Telephone Company it is provided, inter alia, that any resident within the Tunbridge Wells area, shall have the right to an unlimited telephone service for a prepaid rental of £6 per annum, the National Telephone Company is justified in imposing an additional charge of 5s. for stamp duty, and in refusing, where such rental of £6 has been prepaid or tendered, to supply a telephone service until such extra charge of 5s. has also been paid.
  (Answered by Lord Stanley.) The deed referred to by the hon. Member is an
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  agreement made between the Corporation of Tunbridge Wells and the National Telephone Company, and I am, therefore, not in a position to offer any opinion as to its legal effect.

  Telegraphic Facilities at Streamstown, County Westmeath.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: To ask the Postmaster-General if he will explain why there is not a telegraph office at Streamstown, county Westmeath, although there is a railway station and small village and a number of private residences in the neighbourhood; and will he direct that an office be opened at the railway station for the receipt and despatch of telegrams if same cannot be done in the local post office.
  (Answered by Lord Stanley.) Application for a telegraph office at Steamstown was last made in December, 1902, and my predecessor offered to establish it under guarantee, but the offer was not accepted. At the railway station telegrams are despatched and received; but the company have hitherto been unable to deliver them outside the station premises. I will inquire whether the circumstances are in any way altered, and let the hon. Member know.

  Creation of County Boroughs—Power of Local Government Board to Award Costs.
  MR. DUNCAN: To ask the President of the Local Government Board if he will state what number of orders have been made by the Local Government Board awarding cost to promoters and officials, respectively, of schemes promoted by local authorities for the creation of county boroughs or the alteration of Local Government boundaries; and on what principles such orders are made.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) I understand that the information which the hon. Member desires is as to the number of orders issued by my Department awarding costs to promoters and opponents, respectively, of schemes of the kind referred to in the Question. No such orders have been issued.

  Compulsory Retirement of War Office Abstractor Clerks.
  SIR THOMAS ESMONDE: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he will state the actual and several amounts by which the Imperial Exchequer benefited through the compulsory retirement from the War Office of three efficient established "Abstractor Class" clerks, at the respective ages of sixty, sixty-two. and sixty-three, instead of their serving until the age of sixty-five; and whether, seeing that by this action their employment under the Crown, with full pay at increased annual increments of £5 instead of £2 10s., up to the age of sixty-five was thus lost to these clerks as also the increased super-annuation allowance to be earned by service until the age of sixty-five, he will state if the Comptroller and Auditor-General reported to Parliament upon this retirement of established Civil servants, and will he now take steps to refund to these clerks the moneys thus compulsorily obtained from each of them.
  (Answered by Mr. Victor Cavendish.) I am not prepared to give the hon. Baronet the details he desires in the first part of the Question. The figures asked for would require considerable actuarial calculation, which would produce no good result and would throw unnecessary labour upon the Department concerned. Ample information concerning the retirement of the three clerks has already been given to the hon. Baronet in reply to previous Questions on the subject. The reply to the last part of the Question is in the negative.

  Game Licences in Longford.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Monday, 25th July, was the day appointed to grant licences to deal in game in Longford; that on that day Mr. Kilkelly and Mr. S. Wilson were on the bench and an application was made on behalf of Messrs. Devine, Shenlin, Farrell, and O'Shaughnessy for licences to deal in game, whereupon Mr. Kilkelly said that he would not hear the application unless the local magistrates were in attendance; that from this view Mr. S. Wilson dissented, and the applications were
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  adjourned for a week; that on the next Court day Mr. Kilkelly did not attend, and that a majority of the magistrates then present refused to grant a new licence to one of the applicants, a man named O'Shaughnessy, although nothing had been proved against him nor any reason given; and, if so, will he direct the resident magistrate to grant this man a licence.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) I have no authority to issue directions of this character to the resident magistrate.

  Poor Law Officers' Superannuation in Ireland.
  DR. THOMPSON. To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the position of certain Poor Law officers in Ireland, who are liable to have the resignation of their offices accepted without receiving any retiring allowance; and, if so, whether he will issue such instructions to boards of guardians as will protect these Poor Law officers, disqualified for superannuation and anxious to retire from active duty, from the danger of being refused retiring allowances.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) With the exception of those officers who upon retirement are entitled to a retiring allowance under Section 118 of the Local Government Act of 1898, the grant or refusal to grant a superannuation allowance to Poor Law officers under Section I of the 28 and 29 Vic., c. 26, is within the discretion of boards of guardians. It would not be competent for the Local Government Board to issue instructions I calculated to interfere with the discretion of local authorities vested in them by statute in this respect.

  The Fishing Industry in South-East Ireland.
  SIR THOMAS ESMONDE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state what he proposes to do for the support of the fishing industry on the south-east coast of Ireland; and whether, seeing that Irish county councils cannot levy a rate for the construction of a pier costing over £300, either by themselves or by the Department of Agriculture, will he state

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  how piers are being constructed or to be constructed in cases in which the works have already commenced, or in respect of which money has been already allocated, either by the county councils or by the Department of Agriculture, and what steps he proposes to take to remove this difficulty.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) I am in correspondence with the Commissioners of Public Works and the Department of Agriculture, and will communicate with the hon. Baronet in the matter.

  Estate of Madam de l'Herault.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Mr. Cullen, the legal personal representative of Madame de l'Herault, who in 1879 paid to the Crown a sum of £4,594, a moiety of the personal estate of her husband, who died intestate and without ascertained next of kin, through her solicitor applied, with the consent of the Lord - Lieutenant, for a copy of the account of the estate since the fund was handed over to the Treasury, and that in the account furnished certain sums were left out and numerous details in receipts and payments were omitted, the account furnished being in 1883, although the fund was paid over in 1879; and whether, having regard to the fact that the sum originally handed over to the Crown, £4,594, in the year 1879 amounted in 1897 only to the sum of £5,689, India 3½ per cent. stock and £380 cash, and that the application of the solicitor for Mr. Cullen to be furnished with a copy of the account as it stands in the books has been refused, the Lord-Lieutenant will, in order to facilitate the further consideration of this case by the Attorney-General, direct that an account may be furnished of this estate, showing the disposal and disbursement of the fund, and the charges for inquiries, expenses, and costs of opposing the only claimant, and explaining the reason of the small increase of the original sum after the lapse of twenty-five years.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham) I have referred the further matters mentioned in this Question to the Attorney-General for consideration.

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  Arbitration Treaties with Norway and Sweden.
  MR. CREMER: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs a Question of which I have given him private notice, viz., if he can state whether treaties of arbitration have within the last few days been arranged and signed between France, Sweden and Norway, and also between this country and Sweden and Norway.
  The UNDER-SECRETARY Of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Earl Percy)being absent, no reply was given.

NEW BILL.

  WOMEN'S ENFRANCHISEMENT BILL.
  "To enable Women to vote at all Parliamentary Elections," presented by Mr. Crooks; supported by Mr. Shackleton. Mr. Bell, Mr. Arthur Henderson, Mr. Keir Hardie, and Sir Albert Rollit; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 304.]
  Message from the Lords Commissioners, desiring the attendance of the House in the House of Peers.
  The House went; and the Royal Assent was given to a number of Bills. (See pp. 544–548.)
  And afterwards His Majesty's Most Gracious Speech was delivered to both Houses of Parliament by the Lord High Chancellor (in pursuance of His Majesty's Commands).
  Then a Commission for proroguing the Parliament was read.
  After which the Lord Chancellor said—
  My Lords and Gentlemen,
  By virtue of His Majesty's Commission, under the Great Seal, to us and other Lords directed, and now read, we do, in His Majesty's Name, and in obedience to His Commands, prorogue this Parliament to Thursday the Third day of November next, to be then here holden; and this Parliament is accordingly prorogued to Thursday the Third day of November next.