Commons Sitting of 13 August 1904

Preamble
The House met at Twelve of the Clock.
PETITIONS.
  EAST INDIA (PRINCES' AND CHIEFS' GRAND JURY).
  Petition from Cambridge and other places, for legislation; to lie upon the Table.
  VOLUNTARY SCHOOLS ACT, 1897.
  Petitions for alteration of Law; from Barry; and Brighouse; to lie upon the Table.
  RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
    PUBLIC RECORDS (IRELAND.)
    Copy presented, of Thirty-sixth Report of the Deputy Keeper of the Public Records and Keeper of the State Papers in Ireland [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
    LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) ACT, 1898, AND REGISTRATION (IRELAND) ACT, 1898 (ORDERS AND RULES).
    Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 12th August; Mr. Wyndham]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 363.]
    VAGRANCY.
    Copy presented, of Report to the President of the Local Government Board on methods of dealing with Vagrancy in Switzerland [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

    PAUPERISM AND DEATH RATE.
    Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 12th August; Sir Walter Foster];

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    to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 364.]

    MERCHANT SHIPPING ACT, 1894.
    Copy presented, of Orders in Council of 10th August, 1904 (a) revoking Orders in Council of 5th May, 1873, and 29th January, 1904, relating to the remeasurement of French ships in this country; and (b) exempting from remeasurement in His Majesty's Dominions French ships whose certificates of registry are dated on or after 1st July, 1904 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
    FOREIGN JURISDICTION ACT, 1890.
    Copy presented, of Orders in Council of 10th August, 1904, entitled respectively, The Southern Rhodesia Order in Council, 1904, and The Zanzibar Order in Council, 1904 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
    PATENTS ACT, 1902.
    Copy presented, of Order made by the Board of Trade, in pursuance of Section 1(11) of The Patents Act, 1902, fixing the date for the coming into operation of the Section [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
    PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS.
    Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table:—List of the Bills, Reports, Estimates, and Accounts and Papers printed by order of the House, and of Papers presented by Command, Session 1904, with a General Alphabetical Index thereto, 27th Parliament, Fifth session, 4th Edward VII., 2nd February, 1904, to 15th August, 1904; to be printed. [No. 365.]
    LOCAL AUTHORITIES (EDUCATION).
    Return ordered, "showing the extent to which, and the manner in which, Local Authorities in England and Wales have applied funds to the purposes of Technical Education, and of other forms of Education other than elementary, during the year 1903–4, under the following Acts: Local Taxation (Customs and Excise) Act, 1890; Technical Instruction Acts, 1889 and 1891; Welsh Intermediate Education Act, 1889; Public Libraries and Museums Acts; and Education Act, 1902."—(Sir William Anson.)
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Irish Land—Compensation for Surrender of Holdings to Evicted Tenants.
  MR. KILBRIDE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been directed to a letter from the Estates Commissioners to John Purcell, Esq.,D.C., Arless, Queen's County, representing Mr. P. J. McLaughlin, an evicted tenant now in America, in which it is expressly stated that the Estates Commissioners have no power to compel the tenant in occupation of the evicted farm to give it up, or to compensate him for doing so; and, if so, whether, in view of the statements to the effect that such persons could be compensated, made during the passage of the Irish Land Bill last session and since, he will take steps, by legislation or otherwise, to give such power to the Estates Commissioners.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The hon. Member has been good enough to furnish me with a copy of the letter in question. But some misunderstanding seems to exist because the apparently simple question, "can the Estates Commissioners make an advance for the purpose of compensating a tenant for leaving his holding?" raises several issues which in reality are distinct. (1). In the case of a holding forming part of an estate which is not "purchased or proposed to be purchased" no advance can be made. Such a case is outside the scope of Section 12 of the Irish Land Act, 1903. (2.) In the case of a holding forming part of an estate "purchased or proposed to be purchased," compensation may be paid, under Sections 12 and 43, for the "benefit or improvement" of that estate, or "generally for the purposes" of the Act, one of which is the restoration of evicted tenants in connection with a transaction for sale, but not otherwise. (3.) The suggestion that compensation may be paid for this purpose seems sometimes to be made in respect of a third category of cases, viz., where the present holder has purchased under a previous Land Act. On such cases I express no opinion, and refer the hon. Member to the reply given on 19th July

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  to the hon. Member for Tipperary, South.†

  Visits of Women Inspectors to Army Clothing Factory.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: To ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office what was the date of the latest visit of any member of the women inspectors' staff from the Home Office to the Army Clothing works since the visit of His Majesty's principal woman inspector in the time of his predecessor and prior to the deputation; and at what date the electric fans now used were put in.
  (Answered by Mr. Bromley Davenport.) In reply to the first part of the Question, there has been no visit since the one referred to. In reply to the second part of the Question, four electric fans were put in about 20th July last, and four more on the 4th August. These are additional to the nine fans in the Inspection Department, which have been in use since last November.

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  Pimlico Army Clothing Works.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office on what dates, since the promise of improvement in ventilation given to the deputation which waited on the late Secretary of State for War and the late Financial Secretary in August last, the Pimlico Army Clothing Works have been inspected by any Home Office inspector; and what was the instrument used by the inspector who visited the works after the death of Alice Wright for ascertaining the proportion of carbon dioxide in the air.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR OFFICE (Mr. BROMLEY DAVENPORT,): The dates of visits by a Home Office inspector to the Army Clothing Factory since the date of the deputation on various questions connected with the Royal Army
  †See(4) Debates, cxxxviii., 407.
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  Clothing Department, to which the right hon. Baronet presumably alludes, were 28th November, 1903; 24th March; 23rd and 24th June, 1904. I have ascertained from the Home Office that the samples of air were taken by the Inspector in bottles, six in number, on the 24th June, and were sent to Mr. W. J. A. Butterfield, consulting chemist, for analysis, who probably tested them by the Petters Koffer method.

  Shrewsbury Municipal Charities.
  MR. H. D. GREENE: I beg to ask the hon. Member for Tunbridge, as representing the Charity Commissioners, whether any fresh scheme for the Shrewsbury Municipal Charities has been approved or framed by the Commissioners, and when it is likely to be made public, and whether it will be in operation before November.
  MR. GRIFFITH BOSCAWEN: No scheme has yet been framed by the Charity Commissioners for the Shrewsbury Municipal Charities, as the Commissioners have not yet received the necessary application from the trustees.

  Swine Fever in Midlothian.
  THE MASTER OF ELIBANK: I beg to ask the hon. Member for North Huntingdonshire, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether he is in a position to make any further statement with regard to swine fever in Midlothian and the very considerable grievance felt by the farmers on the borders thereof.
  MR. AILWYN FELLOWESwas understood to say, in reply, that the county of Midlothian was now free from the disease, with the exception, perhaps, of two spots which might still be looked upon as dangerous. He understood the complaint was that the three counties bordering on Midlothian would not accept swine freely from Midlothian. He would venture to suggest that they should do all in their power to get the two spots clear and when that was done they would have a strong case to put before the adjoining counties for the removal of the restrictions against their pigs.

NEW MEMBER SWORN.
Alexander Findlay, esquire, for the County of Lanark (North Eastern Division).

SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE.
Moved, "That this House do meet on Monday next, at Five of the clock."—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: May we take it that there will be no business at all on Monday except the formal business of the prorogation.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY (Sir A. ACLAND-HOOD,): So far as I know, there will be none; but, of course, if the Lords amend the Bills sent up to them, those Bills will have to come back to the House of Commons.
Resolved, "That this House do meet on Monday next, at Five of the clock."—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)

CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) BILL.
[Third Reading.]
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a third time."
MR. WEIRregretted that it should be his duty on what was practically the last day of the session to bring forward and a number of important questions, but it was not his fault, for he was not responsible for the distribution of the time of the House. In the first place, he desired to touch upon matters connected with education in Scotland and to the Reports which had been issued on physical deterioration and physical training. These Reports dwelt specially upon the unsatisfactory condition of many of the schools, which were badly ventilated and insanitary. He himself had visited many of the schools, especially in his own constituency, and he had found their condition so bad that he was compelled to ask the attention of the House to the matter.
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Not only were they ill-ventilated but there was a lack of a proper water supply. In some cases the children had to drink water from streams which were used by cattle and horses. In his opinion every school should have a proper water supply, and should be properly ventilated, otherwise how could they expect the little ones to grow up strong and healthy. Then he thought more attention should be paid by the school authorities to the teaching of domestic economy and cookery, and he hoped the central board would circularise the teachers again on that subject. Another matter with which he wished to deal was connected with the carriage of fish and agricultural produce from the Highlands. Months ago he addressed a communication to the Secretary for Scotland on the subject and elicited a promise that some action should be taken. He would again impress upon the right hon. Gentleman the importance of actively intervening. Some of the companies were at the present time charging most exorbitant rates for the carriage of fish, and, in addition to that, there was so much delay with the traffic that the fish on arrival was often unfit for sale, so that the consignor had to lose the value of the consignment as well as to pay unduly heavy carriage rates.
Next he desired to submit one or two matters to the Colonial Secretary on the question of the education of the Tamil coolie children in Ceylon. He had already addressed several Questions to the right hon. Gentleman on this subject, but hitherto had failed to obtain a satisfactory answer. This was a matter which Sir West Ridgeway, the late Governor, should have attended to years ago, but instead of looking after the welfare of the people whom he was deputed to govern he indulged in elephant hunting. Ceylon had a population of 3,500,000 and of these only 750,000 were able to read and write. There was an enormous number of children on the estates, but only about 2,000 of them was receiving a systematic education. On many estates there were no schools at all for these Tamil coolie children, and planters were in the habit of putting them to work at the early age of six years. Now a very different regime obtained in British Guiana. There planters were subject to a heavy

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fine for failure to provide proper education, and they were not allowed to employ children under nine years of age. A Report was sent to the Colonial Secretary on the state of affairs in Ceylon some time since, but up to the present its publication had been withheld. He had been told that it was not of a very satisfactory character.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is not entitled to refer to a Report which is not on the Table of the House.
MR. WEIRsaid he would not, of course, press the point further, but would content himself with urging on the Colonial Secretary that something should be done for the education of the Tamil coolie children. Surely such a disastrous state of things should not be allowed to exist any longer in a British colony! Let the right hon. Gentleman stop the planters employing the children in the fields at six years of age, and let the Government take a lesson from what was done in British Guiana. In his opinion the Colonial Secretary, if he would only examine into the matter for himself, would blame Sir West Ridgeway for devoting himself to elephant hunting instead of looking after the interests of the people over whom he ruled.
He desired to call the attention of the Colonial Secretary to the terribly insanitary condition of the Chinese houses in Hong-Kong. In many of these houses two or three hundred persons were to be found living in cubicles without ventilation or light. Wealthy merchants, both British and Chinese, bought up the land and erected enormously high houses. He asked the right hon. Gentleman if he would endeavour to put a stop to that sort of thing. He believed there was no colony more corrupt than Hong-Kong. There the speculator seemed to have everything very much his own way. It was a disgrace to our Empire. The hon. Member also called attention to the desirability of having the obstructions on the Canton River removed. Negotiations on this matter had been going on with the Chinese Government for years. He was informed some time ago that a survey was being made. No survey was needed. The obstructions ought to be removed so that British
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vessels would be able to have free passage on the river. As to our Consular reports, he said that they were of a most meagre description compared with those of the American and German Consuls, and he urged that fuller reports should be obtained in view of their great usefulness to merchants and traders. The offices of our Consuls were open two hours a day less than those of America and Germany. They were open only from ten to twelve, and from two to four, and ships' captains who wanted to see our Consuls frequently found that they were unable to do so. He complained of the lack of provision for the poor of Egypt, and also of the inadequate accommodation for lunatics. He expressed the hope that attention would be given to these matters, and that something would be done to improve the present state of matters. They were told that the lash had been abolished, but that was not correct, for he himself had seen the police thrash men in the most abominable fashion. That was a state, of matters which should not be allowed in any country under the control of Great Britain. So long as the Prime, Minister took the course he had recently taken in limiting the opportunities for debate, private Members would be. obliged to avail themselves of such opportunities as the present to bring these matters before the House.
SIR ALBERT ROLLITsaid there were one or two points to which he wished to refer briefly, as no other opportunity had occurred during the session for calling attention to them. He drew the Colonial Secretary's attention to the question of the development of Cyprus, expressing the hope that the right lion. Gentleman would continue the policy of his predecessor (the right hon. J. Chamberlain). The great difficulty in the island was the payment of the tribute, which he hoped would at least be commuted at no distant date. In many respects much had been done for the people of the island, and he would like to know what had been the progress made with irrigation works, which were absolutely essential, when they were likely to be completed, and whether any indication had already been given of their success. The harbour works at,

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Famagusta, as to which he should be glad to hear a report of progress, Larnaca, and Limasol were also of great moment; and he hoped something would be done with reference to the railways for which the surveys had been made. He was quite sure if some attention were paid to the island as a place for cotton growing, and for the wine, silk, and other industries and many other purposes, not only would it be developed, but at the same time it might be made, in the end, a source of revenue instead of a burden, by way of annual deficit chiefly caused by the tribute, on the British Exchequer. He hoped he might have some assurance that the subject was not being lost sight of, and he acknowledged that, in the correspondence he had had with the right hon. Gentleman, he had met with great courtesy and consideration.
He should also like to draw attention to the matter of special schools, which had not been dealt with in the recent satisfactory statement of the Secretary to the Board of Education; he referred specially to navigation and nautical schools. These had been the subject of correspondence by himself with the Department, and Regulation 39 now provided that the Board might continue the Science and Art Grants made in 1903–4 during the following year. So far so good, and he thanked the hon. Baronet the Parliamentary Secretary for Education (Sir William Anson) for having met the case by prolonging the grants for a year by means of that temporary regulation. But that was a temporary continuance, and he hoped that the nautical and navigation schools would be dealt with in a special manner and as special schools. He spoke especially for the Trinity House Navigation School in Hull, one of the best in the country, and one which had contributed to the mercantile marine most able masters and mates, and in its time to the Royal Navy an Admiral of the Fleet, Sir John Lawson. It had an excellent master, and it was doing the very best work. There were other schools in the country to which the same remarks applied, and, while he thanked the hon. Baronet for what he had done in continuing the grants for 1904–5, he hoped that he would be able to assure the House that these most
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valuable and characteristically national schools would meet with special consideration and be provided for by special regulations. It might be true that the curriculum of the Hull Trinity House School was not as that of any other nautical school or of any secondary school in England or in France or in Germany, but no other school was doing the same work so successfully, and the high mathematical training was most disciplinary and useful, and if the age of the boys was low this was necessary in seafaring training. He hoped, therefore, that the continuation of the cessation of the Science and Art Grants for the day classes in such schools would not be adhered to, and he thanked the Board of Education for the temporary regulation and for the promised interview on the subject in the autumn, which he hoped would result in the permanent continuance of the grants.
MR. PIERPOINTsaid he wished to take exception to the statement of the hon. Member who had just spoken when he spoke of the Island of Cyprus as being a burden on this country. Far from being a burden, as the Colonial Secretary well knew, the island relieved England and France from payment of a debt guaranteed by them.
SIR ALBERT ROLLITsaid that what he really meant was, that owing to the payment of the tribute there was a balance left against the island which was met by the British Exchequer. He believed that the island would prove of great benefit to this country.
MR. PIERPOINTsaid he was very glad to have given the hon. Member an opportunity of making that explanation. The Exchequer was relieved by our possession of the island of the payment of £41,000, and France was relieved to the same extent under the Crimean Guarantee Loan of 1855. When Captain Singe and Mr. Suter were captured by brigands in Macedonia, application was made to the Treasury for the ransom demanded. After a very proper homily that the Treasury could not be held responsible for every adventurous Englishman, the ransom was paid out of the surplus accumulations of the Cyprus tribute. His hon. friend said he hoped that the Cyprus tribute

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might be commuted, and if nothing better could be done he joined in the hope that some day it would be commuted. He, however, referred his right hon. friend the Colonial Secretary to the wording of the original bond of 1878. The words were, "England will pay." There was nothing whatever in the bond about what Cyprus would pay, and there was no consultation with the Cypriotes before the bond was entered into. It had since been interpreted not that England would pay, but that Cyprus would pay. As a legal question, he submitted to his right hon. friend that it could not be maintained that the tenants on land which was mortgaged were liable for the interest on the mortgage, but that was what the course adopted in regard to Cyprus meant. Part of the original intention was that Cyprus should be made a place d'armes, and that there would be a large Imperial expenditure in the island. That intention had, however, been abandoned, and practically nothing had been spent. The whole garrison in the island consisted of only one company of infantry.
He desired to put before the Colonial Secretary an idea which had been favourably considered by the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor. It was that a great deal might be done for the island by making it a free port and emporium for the Near East, so that shippers from England might accumulate their goods in Cyprus, whence they might be distributed throughout Syria, Asia Minor, and other Turkish territory, so as to obviate two Customs tariffs. That would be a great benefit to the island and to the merchants of this country. Reports showed the difficulties these Cypriotes had to contend with from recurring droughts. In 1902–3 £25,000 had actually to be spent in relief works. He thought the House would acknowledge that it was rather hard that from an average revenue of £180,000 they should be liable to pay a tribute of nearly£93,000. The consequence was that nearly every year Cyprus had to come to this country for a grant-in-aid amounting to about £30,000, on the average. But this was after the payment of £41,000 to the 1855 bondholders in this country, and £41,000 to the French bond-
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holders. That left a balance of £11,000 as the amount which this country benefited by the possession of Cyprus. Had the circumstances been properly considered before the Convention of 1878 he could not help feeling that no such burden would have been put on the island. He knew that a high authority had said that it was quite impossible for the island to bear this burden, and that England ought to pay it. There was another matter of a totally different nature to what he wished to refer. He regretted to have to raise the question in the absence of the Prime Minister. His point was to press on the Prime Minister to make some reasonable change in the new rules of the House.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! I would remind the hon. Gentleman that this matter does not arise in discussion of the Bill now before the House.
MR. LOUIS SINCLAIRsaid that he wished to draw the attention of the Prime Minister to the fact that a Committee had been appointed to inquire into the functions of the various Government Departments. Instead of an inquiry into all the Departments, the Committee had so far only reported with regard to the Board of Trade and the Local Government Board. He hoped that next session the Committee would continue its investigations with a view to the improvement of the machinery of administration in this country and the prevention of overlapping. On 3rd March of last year, a Committee was appointed to consider the question, and it reported about a year ago; but, like many other Reports, very little notice was taken of it, and no satisfactory reply regarding it could be obtained from the Prime Minister. There was no country in the civilised world which had such difficult methods of administering its great Departments as had this country. They knew how the Board of Trade was constituted; and the wonder was it did such good work in the absence of all it s members except the President. With regard to the Home Office, it was notorious that justice was more expensive in this country than in any other; and that there were, in consequence, more miscarriages of justice. It was also a

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well-known fact that it was the advocate who won the case, not the justice of it. He knew a case involving very intricate questions in which the lawyer engaged threw up his brief to accept a better one.
MR. SPEAKER: This does not appear to be relevant. On what particular portion of the Estimates does the hon. Gentleman base his remarks?
MR. LOUIS SINCLAIRsaid he desired to point out that the Home Office was the only Ministry of Justice in this country; and the House of Commons had no means of supervising its general administration. He would not, however, pursue the point. He would wish to refer to the Police Courts, over which the Home Office had jurisdiction. There was a case in which a school board summoned—
MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The Home Office advises as to the remission of sentences; but the cases themselves are deal twith by the police magistrates, whose salaries are not upon the Estimates.
MR. LOUIS SINCLAIRsaid he would, of course, bow to the ruling of the Chair. He desired, however, to mention a case of injustice which had occurred in a Police Court.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! That cannot be done now.
MR. LOUIS SINCLAIRsaid he was sorry he was out of order. He wonld revert to the overlapping of great Departments. Instead of having, as in other countries, a Ministry of Commerce, a Ministry of the Interior, and a Ministry of Justice, there were offices of State in this country in which no duties were performed except the duty of accepting salary. It was a pity, in these days of competition, that they should have the Board of Trade constituted as it was centuries ago, and that they should have a Home Office without the necessary machinery to perform its duties. He hoped that next session the Prime Minister would be able to consider the Report with reference to the proper education of commercial attachés, as it was of the greatest importance that the
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Consular service should be administered by sound business men.
MR. CHARLES DEVLINsaid that a sum of £6,000 appeared in the Irish Development Grant for a dredger; and the Chief Secretary stated that it was intended for the harbours on the north and east coasts of Ireland. He himself mentioned that the dredger would also be required on the west coast; and the Chief Secretary then stated that it would be sent all round. He had brought the matter before the House on several occasions; and the Chief Secretary led him to expect that the dredger would be available as soon as possible, especially for the harbour of Galway. For years Galway had been asking for a dredger; and the result of its not having been supplied was that the docks were being silted up, and could not be properly used. He asked that the dredger, which was now being provided, should be placed, as soon as possible, at the disposal of the Harbour Board of Galway. There was another point he wished to mention. Last year he put a Question to the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was then Postmaster-General, with reference to the mail service to Canada and the United States. The right hon. Gentleman then said that the harbour of Galway would be considered in connection with the service. He, himself, was satisfied that Galway was the natural terminus for the service. Great advantages would be gained by its selection. The distance would be shortened by 400 miles, and there would be a saving of a day in the delivery of the mails. The session, so far as the Irish Members were concerned, had not been satisfactory. It was not through any fault of theirs, but they found themselves face to face with a Government that did not care a rap for Ireland, and who were only anxious to take as much and give as little as was possible to Ireland. He contended that the money taken from Ireland belonged to the Irish people and should go back to them.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. LYTTELTON,)referring to observations made concerning Cyprus, said that a memorial from the elective

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members in Cyprus in regard to agriculture, which he presumed included irrigation, and also in regard to the harbour works at Famagusta, had expressed satisfaction with the administration of the island. He would give the hon. Member who desired information full details hereafter. Great benefit to Cyprus had resulted from the remission of taxation. On an income of £190,000 a year there had been a net remission of more than £20,000 a year; and the manner of collecting the taxes had been improved in a way that was markedly beneficial to the taxpayers. As regarded the education of native children in Ceylon, a Report had recently been received suggesting certain reforms. He had consulted educational authorities of high standing in this country on the subject, and hon. Members might be satisfied that this matter had not been lost sight of. He regretted that in the absence of notice he could not answer inquiries by the hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty regarding certain Chinese residents in Hong-Kong.
Sin G. DOUGHTYdesired to join earnestly in the appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education in respect to the grant to the nautical and navigation schools, which had rendered numerous and important services to the mercantile marine. He hoped that the Secretary of the Education Department, in considering this question would, if possible, endeavour to so arrange the grant that it might be permanent, because it was a very great advantage to the mercantile marine generally, and more particularly to the fisheries of the United Kingdom. The Trinity House School at Hull and other institutions had rendered enormous services to the fisheries in matters of nautical education and they attached very great importance to their continuance and general efficiency. He was exceedingly pleased with the statement which the right hon. Gentleman had made as to the working of the Education Act. He also referred to the question of the extension of communication with Iceland and the Faröe Islands. It was more than three years since the Postmaster-General was approached, but
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they had heard nothing definite from him. For several months in the year those islands were disconnected, and in the case of the Norge disaster the other day a number of poor people were landed on the Faröe Islands and it was a week before we knew anything about it. He hoped the Postmaster-General would do something in the matter.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Sir WILLIAM ANSON,)in reply, said it was perfectly true that the nautical schools did not come within the category of schools other than elementary, which the Board of Education assisted. They were, however, fully sensible of the special advantages in the preparation of boys for the Navy, and they were also fully convinced of the valuable work done by the schools referred to, but he hoped the hon. Member would not press him to go further.
MR. CROOKSasked for information with regard to the ventilation of the clothing works at Pimlico, and urged on the President of the Local Government Board the desirability of encouraging more activity on the part of his inspectors in promoting the sanitation of London districts. He asked whether some of the energy expended by the Department on the promotion of vaccination could not be devoted to the prevention of overcrowding. Certain landlords in the East End were getting three times the rental value of their property because of the overcrowding permitted. The sanitary inspector ought to be compelled to do his duty as well as the vaccination officer. Why should not coercion be put into operation against overcrowding, which tended to make unworthy people rich? Whenever anything was wanted hon. Members could always get sympathetic replies from the various Departments, but they were invariably told that the matter had had to go to the Treasury and had there been vetoed. For instance, there was the Report of the Bradford Committee. Doubtless the sympathetic words of the Postmaster-General would be very comforting to the poor postmen, but of what practical use would they be? The

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Treasury stood in the way. During the winter the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Financial Secretary would doubtless be considering the Budget for next year, and he asked that they should give some attention to the natural and proper demands of the postal servants for better remuneration. They ought not to plead that there was no money in the country. The Government got the money somehow, and they spent it somehow, but it did not go to the benefit of those who needed it most. It always seemed to be a case of greasing the fat sow; those who had most were given most. Government servants ought to be paid the standard rate of wages. It would doubtless mean an increase of expenditure, but it would probably result in a decrease of rates, because when people were paid so badly they could not obtain proper food, and then when they broke down their medical attendance had to be paid for by the rates. If men were worth employing they were worth feeding and keeping properly. The Government were exceedingly generous in making grants to places like Cyprus—of which he knew nothing except by reading—and why should they not make a few grants in aid of people of whom we did know something? Money was urgently needed for the provision of houses in many parts of the country, and he suggested that the Government might be well advised if they advanced a million or two for that purpose.
MR. SPEAKER: These are matters for legislation; they do not arise on the administrative work of the Government.
MR. CROOKSsaid the idea he had in mind was that the money might be spent so much better than was now the case. Those who lived amongst the humblest and poorest of the people knew what struggles there would be for work and food during the coming winter, and he wished to urge that next year matters should be so arranged that the money of the nation was not wasted but put to purposes for the benefit of the community at large.
MR. DELANYexpressed his regret at the
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barrenness of the session so far as Ireland Was concerned. The Irish people had been led to believe that the University question would be settled, but their hopes had been disappointed. The Government had secured their "Landlords' Bonus" Bill, and he urged that during the winter now that the one obstacle to the working of the Land Act from the landlords' point of view had been removed, the Government should give the Act a fair trial, that they should not use their influence on the one side or the other, so as to see whether or not the Land Act, now on its trial, was a workable measure. He strongly appealed for a fair trial to be given to the provisions affecting evicted tenants.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read the third time, and passed.

CUNARD AGREEMENT BILL.
[THIRD READING.]
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a third time."
MR. CALDWELLsaid that this Bill was promoted with three objects in view, first, to provide the Admiralty with two ships superior in speed to anything they at present possessed; secondly, to provide as far as possible for the transfer of these ships to the British flag; and, thirdly, to uphold the prestige of the British flag in the matter of speedy communications on the Atlantic route. These were Imperial objects of the first importance. The speed of the Atlantic steamers had very greatly increased of late years. In 1887 it was eighteen knots an hour, a speed then looked upon as remarkable; it was now twenty three knots and there was no reason why in the ordinary development of commerce the speed should not be increased. There was no difficulty in building vessels which would make the Atlantic trip in five days; the only reason it was not done was that it suited the shipbuilders to increase the

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speed gradually. Germany now had ships going at twenty-three knots an hour, and the Government proposed by this agreement to go one better and get ships which would go twenty-four and a half knots. If they accomplished it, Germany would build still faster boats, and the only result of this high-speed subsidy would be to create a rivalry in the building of fast boats which would leave us no better off than we were now. In Germany it had been found out that these high speeds could be attained on commercial lines. Foreign vessels were only subsidised in certain cases, as for instance, when they opened new routes, not yet developed, where but for the subsidy it would be impossible to run, but even in those cases those vessels were only subsidised for ten years, the subsidy decreasing year by year. The Government was going to enter into this agreement, and get this line to build ships with a speed of twenty-five knots and give them a subsidy for naval and Admiralty purposes. That was a new policy which Germany would follow, and the ultimate result to us would be nothing. Take the case of the "Campania." She was now out of the Admiralty list, because she could not do twenty-one knots; when first built she could do twenty-one knots, and if the Government had come down to the House in 1887, and made such a contract with regard to the "Campania," we should be paying now for a vessel that was of no use to us. That was what he predicted would be the fate of this agreement. Either it would fail, or if it did succeed it would bring about rivalry which ultimately could be of no benefit to this country. All the Post Office contracts for the carriage of mails were made for the vessel to com-
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plete the voyage in a certain time, in a certain number of days. In the case of the Peninsular and Oriental contracts a certain number of hours were allowed for the ships to get from port to port, and there were penalties for being out of time. But in the agreement with the Cunard, that matter was left quite open; it was left in a general way; they were to go as fast as possible subject to safe navigation. The Post Office paid by weight and not by subsidy, and so far as this contract with the Cunard was concerned, if it was a me e contract for the carrying of letters, this country had no more interest in carrying letters to America than America had in bringing letters over here, We had hitherto refused to subsidise vessels running between this and foreign countries; the only subsidy we gave was to vessels going to our own Colonies. He warned the Government that this agreement would not be ultimately to our benefit, and that they would find, when it came to a question of building ships capable of a high rate of speed, that the Germans could build vessels to go quite as quickly as any we could build.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read the third time and passed.

CAPITAL EXPENDITIURE (MONEY) BILL.
Read the third time, and passed.

POST OFFICE (EAST INDIA, CHINA, AND AUSTRALIA MAILS).
Motion made, and Question proposed, 'That the Contract dated the 25th day of July, 1904, between the Postmaster-General and the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company, for the conveyance of the East India, China, and Australia Mails, printed in Parliamentary

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Paper No. 328. of session 1904, be approved."—(Mr. Victor Cavendish.)
MR. CALDWELLsaid he could not allow this contract to pass without protest. It was one of the most important contracts which the Government had, and one in which the people of India were very deeply interested. The object of this Resolution was to renew for three years the existing contract with the Peninsular and Oriental Company at an increase of £10,000 a year. There had been many complaints with regard to the Peninsular and Oriental service to India as to the exorbitant rates for passengers. It might be said that the ships of other countries running to India were subsidised, but in such cases there was always a proviso regulating the passenger fares. On the English lines the interest of the traders and the passengers travelling were not consulted at all. He noticed that the time was to be shortened by twenty-four hours, but from past experience of the Peninsular and Oriental Company they might know that there would be no increase of speed, and the time of the journey would not be shortened in any way. The Peninsular and Oriental Company did not keep up to their time at all. We had the slowest boats on the India, China, and Ceylon stations, because the Government had practically given a monopoly to this company. The enormous subsidy that the Government paid represented a 12 per cent. dividend on the capital of the Peninsular and Oriental Company, and it kept off all British competition. Foreign competition could take care of itself, and the best boats on those routes were the German boats. He recognised that this was a contract that must be renewed every three
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years. He did not take exception to that course, but he felt it necessary to bring before the notice of the noble Lord the great dissatisfaction which existed with regard to this monopoly, in the hope that something would be done in the direction of getting competitive tenders, either for the whole or for sections of this service. A huge monopoly of this kind was detrimental to communication between this country and India. He hoped no time would be lost by the Post Office in making arrangements for inviting competitive tenders in order to get rid of this monopoly.
THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Lord STANLEY,said he agreed with a great deal of what the hon. Member had said. The Government were only asking for this contract for another three years in order to give them time to arrange a competitive scheme which would give all those who desired to compete time to build vessels in order to join in the competition for this contract.
Resolved, "That the Contract dated the 25th day of July, 1904, between the Postmaster-General and the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company, for the conveyance of the East India, China, and Australia Mails, printed in Parliamentary Paper, No. 328, of session 1904, be approved."—(M. Victor Cavendish.)
Whereupon, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 2nd day of August, Mr. Speaker adjourned the House without Question put.
Adjourned at thirteen minutes after Two o'clock till Monday next.