HC Deb 02 August 1904 vol 139 cc649-73

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

[Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN,) Worcestershire, E.

who rose amid Opposition cries of "Grey," said that he wished to make a statement which he had previously promised to make. Under a series of Acts of Parliament it had directed that certain works should be executed and the cost of them charged to capital to be repaid within a minimum period of years. For the purpose of providing this money the Treasury was only authorised to borrow on a single form of security—terminable annuities That was not now a marketable form of security. They had been wholly taken up in the past by the National Debt Commissioners. The funds at the command of the Commissioners were no longer sufficient for the purpose, and he was, therefore, obliged to ask the Committee to authorise the Treasury to borrow on a different form of security—namely, Exchequer bonds. As to the amount of capital expenditure, the figure of £10,000,000 which he gave during the discussion on the Budget had been somewhat reduced. The amount which it would probably be necessary to borrow would be £9,250,000—£4,500,000 on account of the Naval Works Act, £3,500,000 on account of the Military Works Act, £750,000 on account of the Telegraph Acts, £219,000 under the Uganda Railway Act, £17,000 on account of Land Registry Buildings, £197,000 under the Public Buildings Expenses Act, and £50,000 under the Public Offices (Government) Act. All these works had been approved, and all the borrowing authorised by Parliament. He moved a Resolution authorising the Treasury to borrow by means of Exchequer bonds any sums which they were authorised to borrow by means of terminable annuities.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That it is expedient to authorise the Treasury to borrow, by means of Exchequer Bonds, any sums which they are authorised to borrow by means of terminable annuities, the principal of and interest on such Exchequer Bonds to be charged on the Consolidated Fund, and to make provision for the discharge of any sums so borrowed out of moneys annually provided by Parliament."—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)

SIR EDWARD GREY (Northumberland, Berwick)

said that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had raised a point with which he was not familiar, and which was of some novelty. He rose for the purpose of moving to report Progress, although not necessarily to ask the Prime Minister to close business. But there was a long programme on the Paper, and they ought to have some statement from the Government as to how much of that programme they proposed to take. This novel point could not be discussed at so late an hour. He thought that there should be some discrimination as to the kind of business to be taken at these late sittings.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress; and ask leave to sit again."—(Sir Edward Grey.)

THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,) Manchester, E.

said he did not altogether disagree with the observations of the right hon. Baronet, and he thought the right hon. Baronet's objection was a very reasonable one. He, however, did not propose to ask the House to do more than pass the preliminary Resolution standing on the Paper. The right hon. Baronet said that the hour was late, but discussion could be made on the Second Reading, Report, and Third Reading of these Bills—the Capital Expenditure (Money) Bill, the Cunard Agreement (Money) Bill, and the Anglo-French Convention (Expenses) Bill. Under these circumstances he asked the Committee to agree to passing this Resolution.

MR. LLOYD - GEORGE (Carnarvon Boroughs)

said he did not like to contradict the Prime Minister on a question of the traditions of the House; but this was not a purely formal stage. It was a novel proceeding, as it was the first time that such a Bill had been introduced into the House. It was a practical admission that they were borrowing so much money that they could not trust to the ordinary sources. That in itself was, surely, of sufficient importance to be considered very seriously. He, therefore, submitted that the matter should not be taken at that hour of the morning. The Resolution was of far-reaching importance, the Cunard Agreement marked a departure in the policy of this country, and the Anglo-French Agreement was also of great importance.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

said he did not propose to take the Anglo-French Agreement that night.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

said that that was some concession. Why should they not confine themselves to the Shop Hours Bill? They were anxious to assist the Government in getting that Bill through. It was preposterous to start such a Motion at one o'clock in the morning. The next thing the Government would do would be to introduce the Budget at three o'clock. [An HON. MEMBER: Oh.] The hon. Member had never prolonged discussion, because he had never taken an articulate part in the proceedings. He maintained that highly contentious business such as that now proposed. should not be taken at such an hour. To proceed with it would be a perfect farce.

MR. BUCHANAN (Perthshire. E.)

said he thought the Prime Minister had not met the Motion of his right hon. friend as fairly as he might. No doubt this was an important stage which ought to be fairly and fully discussed. The nearest analogy to the Motion was the Naval Works Bill and the Military Works Bill, on which a full statement had always been made on their introduction. Even the Prime Minister would not say that the Report stage would be taken at a reasonable hour. This was a Bill of a very far-reaching character; and it would add £10,000,000 to the floating debt. One of the first duties they were constantly urging on the Government was to decrease the floating debt; and yet they were asked at that hour of the morning, without any adequate explanation, to increase it by £10,000,000. He thought his right hon. friend was amply justified in making his Motion. In the interest of decency of debate they ought to have a better opportunity of discussing the matter.

MR. WHITLEY (Halifax)

said he did not think that the Prime Minister understood the importance of the proposal. The Bill would facilitate what economists had been declaiming against for years. Yet at this period of the session the Government had introduced a Bill to facilitate a practice which had been generally condemned. He hoped the Prime Minister would proceed instead with the Shop Hours Bill.

MR. WINSTON CHURCHILL (Oldham)

said that his right hon. friend was perfectly justified in his Motion. The fact that the Prime Minister had dropped the fourth Order made the matter somewhat more satisfactory; but he submitted that it would be a great pity if after a long, friendly, and good - tempered discussion on the War Office Vote, they should now, through a little hot-headedness, descend to an ill-tempered discussion, and have to struggle through one of those prolonged sittings which were so injurious to the health of Members and detrimental, not only to public business, but to the reputation of the House. He would urge the right hon. Gentleman to drop Order No. 3 as well as Order No. 4. In any event this Resolution would have to be discussed, and discussed in detail. This Resolution was not formal, as the right hon. Gentleman appeared to imagine; and even if it had been customary in ordinary circumstances to assent to such Resolutions without lengthy discussion he submitted that that could not occur in view of the unusual financial circumstances in which they found themselves. It was the first time in twenty years that they had been called upon to make such a departure, and to issue new Exchequer bonds at a time when the conditions of credit were not at all favourable. The right hon. Gentleman, in asking the Committee to assent to this Resolution, was asking them to, assent to something they could not apprehend. The Chancellor of the Exchequer read out a number of figures very rapidly; and it was impossible to grasp their import. If the right hon. Gentleman would agree to report Progress now, they would be able to see the figures in the morning, and be in a position to give an intelligible decision upon them. He would call the attention of the Prime Minister to the fact that they were now beginning a regular course of late sittings. His right hon. friend did not propose that the Government should not proceed further; and he indicated the Shop Hours Bill. Was it not possible for the Prime Minister to make some response to his right hon. friend which might avoid a very unpleasant result? Having regard to the financial situation, those who deeply regretted the great increase of expenditure were bound to challenge all financial business in a manner that had not been customary of recent years, and if a reason was to be looked for it might be found in the necessity for the introduction of such a measure as that now under discussion.

MR. RENWICK (Newcastle-on-Tyne)

Windbag!

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

said that for the second time an offensive expression had been used across the floor of the House. No notice was taken of the first, but he now desired to ask if it was in order for the hon. Member for Newcastle to call his hon. friend a "windbag." [MINISTERIAL laughter.] Such gross breaches of order might be a subject for merriment to hon. Members opposite, but he submitted that they were out of order, and that the hon. Member for Newcastle ought to be called upon to withdraw the expression.

*THE CHAIRMAN

I think the expression "windbag" is offensive, and I trust the hon. Member will withdraw it At the same time, I hope the hon. Member for Oldham will say nothing likely to provoke such expressions.

MR. RENWICK

Perhaps it was a little strong language. [OPPSITION cries of "Withdraw."] I withdraw it.

MR. WINSTON CHURCHILL

I was not aware, Sir, that I had said anything of a provocative character.

*THE CHAIRMAN

The hon. Member has addressed the Committee four times in the space of two or three hours, and therefore he must not be too particular if observations are made indicating that the patience of the Committee is severely tried. I have done my best to get a fair hearing for him, but I hope he will not try the patience of the Committee too far.

MR. MOSS (Denbighshire, E.)

asked whether there was any rule as to the number of times a Member might speak in Committee.

*THE CHAIRMAN

There is no rule, hut if a Member addresses the Committee very frequently and repeats over and over again the same observations he must not be surprised if he is met with some cries of impatience.

MR. TREVELYAN (Yorkshire, W.R., Elland)

Have you called my hon. friend to order for repeating himself?

MR. WINSTON CHURCHILL

said he gathered the Chairman's criticism was directed to the quantity of his utterances, and not to the quality. He could not have been repeating his arguments for then the Chair would have called him to order. With great respect he submitted that the quantity of his remarks was a matter for the rules of the House, and not for the Chair. Desiring, however, to show respect not merely to the Chair but to its occupant, he would conclude his remarks by accepting the withdrawal of the hon. Member for Newcastle, although he thought the word was one against which they were bound to protest.

SIR EDWARD GREY

was surprised at the heat generated on the other side of the House. The Motion to report Progress had been supported in a most conciliatory spirit, and had been interpreted by his hon. friends in an even more definitely conciliatory form than as originally moved. A positive invitation had been given to the Government to proceed with the Shop Hours Bill, and he hoped the Prime Minister would take note of the fact. The right hon. Gentleman in meeting the Motion might have been a little less curt. ["Oh."] He did not say nor did he mean "discourteous"; he said "curt." The Prime Minister had said this was a purely formal stage of the two Orders he proposed to deal with; but the contention of the Opposition was that very important matters were involved which required fuller consideration than could be given at two o'clock in the morning. He suggested that the right hon. Gentleman might have said that as the present was a formal stage he would bring forward, at any rate, one of the subsequent stages of each Bill at an hour before midnight when it could he properly and adequately discussed. If the right hon. Gentleman would give a definite promise to that effect he would be prepared, personally, to withdraw the Motion.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

said he was very sorry that the right hon. Baronet should have thought that his exposition was so brief. He thought it would need a great straining of language to show that any principle of importance was raised by either of these Bills. The question was not whether the Committee would add to our debt. These matters had reference to obligations which the country had entered into and the repudiation of which would not be conducive to economy. Then he was told there was the Savings Bank question, but he submitted that that did not come up on this Bill legitimately. What they had to deal with in this Bill was one simple proposition, carrying out obligations entered into by this House deliberately, and therefore there was no alternative but to take the course which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had taken. He did not think honestly that that could be described as a proposition which required a long debate. Then the Cunard Agreement was an obligation distinctly entered into by the House of Commons by Resolution which was not taken after twelve o'clock, but which he quite admitted might have been taken at an earlier hour to-day. How could it be said that in regard to either of these money Resolutions the Government in the smallest degree had abused the legitimate claims which they had upon the time of the House. He hoped the hon. Baronet would agree with him when he said that they had done their best to meet the wishes of hon. Members opposite.

Sin EDWARD GREY

said he asked the right hon. Gentleman about affording an opportunity upon a subsequent stage of these two measures.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

said he could not see how such an undertaking could be given.

SIR EDWARD GREY

said that if every stage was to be regarded as being just as formal as this he must persist in his Motion. But if the Prime Minister would undertake that one of the subsequent stages in each case should be brought on at an hour when it could he discussed, he was prepared to withdraw his Motion.

MR. LABOUCHERE (Northampton)

said the Chancellor of the Exchequer knew very well what was going on in the City, and he might inform the Prime Minister that it was most important if anything was done to increase this debt. It was a very important and a thoroughly controversial measure. Under these circumstances he did think they were justified in asking that they should have a discussion upon one stage taken at some reasonable hour. They were told earlier in the session that they were to have a day set apart for discussion upon the Cunard Agreement. They could not call what took place a discussion when the matter was brought on after midnight. They were quite willing to allow this measure to go through if the Prime Minister would give them one single stage upon which they could discuss the matter. In regard to the expenditure upon the Army and Navy and upon Uganda they had again and again asked to be allowed to discuss those questions, but now at the end of the session, when the Twelve O'clock Ride had been suspended, the Government were forcing all those questions upon them, when they knew very well that there could not be that important discussion which was necessary, and they called that keeping their pledges! Pledges had been given in regard to this particular Resolution, and this Cunard Agreement was regarded as a most important matter in the City. They were not seeking in any way to obstruct the business. Surely when they were simply asking for one single day to discuss a stage of this subject they were not asking too much. His contention was that Bills of this kind ought to be completely discussed at least once. This was all the more urgent because the Chancellor of the Exchequer had sprung upon them a change in regard to this Bill.

MR. RUNCIMAN (Dewsbury)

said the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman really could not meet with any agreement on this side of the House. If he had followed the history of the question he would know that a day had been promised for the discussion of the Agreement. What actually took place last session was that the discussion of the Agreement was deferred over and over again, and finally on the 12th of August there was an extremely brief discussion in a very empty House. The matter could not be dealt with then, and the House had had no real opportunity of discussing it. It was hardly fair to have it rushed through in this way. If the right hon. Gentleman persisted in the proposal it would mean that arrangements would be made by Departments, and the House of Commons would lose all control. He hoped the Prime Minister would consider the proposal made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Berwick, namely, to take a formal stage to-night, and the later stages at a time when hon. Members could have a daylight discussion on the subject.

*SIR CHARLES DILKE (Gloucestershire, Forest of Dean)

said he wished to support what had fallen from his hon. friend. The way the House was treated in the matter of the Cunard Agreement was really a scandal. The promise of a day was given last session, and that promise had not been redeemed.

Mr. A. J. BALFOUR

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 127; Noes, 54. (Division List No. 296.)

AYES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Mount, William Arthur
Anson, Sir William Reynell Finch, Rt. Hn. George H. Morray,RtHn.A Graham (Bute
Arkwright, John Stanhope Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath
Arnold-Forster,Rt.Hn.Hugh O. Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon Pemberton, John S. G.
Arrol, Sir William Forster, Henry William Percy, Earl
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Foster,PhilipS.(Warwiek,S.W. Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Bagot,Capt.Josceline FitzRoy Galloway, William Johnson Plummer, Sir Walter R.
Bailey, James (Walworth) Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H. Pretyman, Ernest George
Bain, Colonel James Robert Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) Rankin, Sir James
Balcarres, Lord Green,WalfordD. (Wednesbury Reid, James (Greenock)
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A.J. (Manch'r Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) Remnant, James Farquharson
Balfour,Rt Hn Gerald W(Leeds Grenfell, William Henry Renwick, George
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Gretton, John Ridley, Hn. M.W. (Staly bridge
Blundell, Colonel Henry Groves, James Grimble Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Brassey, Albert Hall, Edward Marshall Royds, Clement Molyneux
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Hamilton,Marq.of (L'nd'derry Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Brotherton, Edward Allen Hay, Hon. Claude George Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Butcher, John George Heath,ArthurHoward (Hanley Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford
Campbell,J.H.M. (DublinUniv. Heath, James (Staffords.N.W. Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Cautley, Henry Strother Hope,J.F. Sheffield,Brightside) Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)
Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire Hunt, Rowland Smith,Abel H. (Hertford, East
Cecil,Evelyn (Aston Manor) Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Chamberlain,Rt Hn.J.A.(Wore Kerr, John Spear, John Ward
Chapman, Edward Keswick, William Stanley,Hon.Arthur (Ormskirk
Charrington, Spencer Knowles, Sir Lees Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lanes.)
Clive, Captain Percy A. Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Talbot, Lord E.(Chichester)
Coates, Edward Feetham Lee,ArthurH.(Hants.,Fareham Talbot,Rt Hn.J G. (Oxf'dUniv.
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Compton, Lord Alwyne Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Tuff, Charles
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Leveson-Gower, FrederiekN.S. Valentia, Viscount
Craig, Charles Curtis (AntrimS. Long,Rt.Hn.Walter (Bristol, S. Walrond, Rt. Hn.SirWilliain H.
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Loyd, Archie Kirkman Warde, Colonel C. E.
Dalkeith, Earl of Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Webb, Colonel William George
Davenport, William Bromley M`Killop, James (Stirlingshire) Whiteley, H. (Ashton undLyne
Davies,Sir Horatio D (Chatham Manners, Lord Cecil Wrightson Sir Thomas
Dickson, Charles Scott Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. Wylie, Alexander
Dimsdale, Rt.Hn. Sir Joseph C. Maxwell,RtHnSir H. E.(Wigt'n Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Doughty, Sir George Maxwell,W.J.H.(Dumfriesshire Wyndham-Quin, Col.W. H.
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Melville, Beresford Valentine
Doxford, Sir William Theodore Milvain, Thomas TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Alexander Acland-Hood
Dyke, Rt.Hn.Sir William Hart Morgan, David J(Walthamstow and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.
Fergusson,Rt.Hn.Sir J(Manc'r Morrell, George Herbert
NOES.
Ainsworth, John Stirling Harcourt,LewisV. (Rossendale Shackleton, David James
Asher, Alexander Higham, John Sharpe Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Barran, Rowland Hirst Horniman, Frederick John Soares, Ernest J.
Benn, John Williams Jones, William (Carnarvonshire Stanhope, Hon. Philip James
Boland, John Joyce, Michael Sullivan, Donal
Brigg, John Kennedy, Vincent P.(Cavan, W Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Bright, Allan Heywood Kilbride, Denis Thomas, David Alfred (Merth'r
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Labouchere, Henry Thomas,JA (Glamorgan,Gower
Caldwell, James Levy, Maurice Tomkinson, James
Causton, Richard Knight Lyell, Charles Henry Toulmin, George
Cawley, Frederick Moss, Samuel Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Cullinan, J. Murphy, John White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Dilke, Rt. Hn. Sir Charles Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Doogan, P. C. Norman, Henry Wilson, Henry J. (Fork, W.R.
Edwards, Frank O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary,Mid
Elibank, Master of O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.
Allice,CaptEC(S. Andrw'sBghs Rickett, J. Compton Herbert Gladstone and Mr. William M'Arthur.
Flavin, Michael Joseph Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Grey, Rt.Hn. Sir. E. (Berwick) Runciman, Walter
Griffith, Ellis J. Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Question put accordingly, "That the Chairman do report Progress; and ask leave to sit again."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 53; Noes, 127. (Division List No. 297.)

AYES.
Ainsworth, John Stirling Griffith, Ellis J. Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Asher, Alexander Harcourt, LewisV. (Rossendale Shackleton, David James
Barran, Rowland Hirst Higham, John Sharpe Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Benn, John Williams Horniman, Frederick John Soares, Ernest J.
Boland, John Jones, William (Carnarvonshire Stanhope, Hon. Philip James
Brigg, John Joyce, Michael Sullivan, Donal
Bright, Allan Heywood Kennedy, Vincent P.(Cavan,W Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Kilbride, Denis Thomas,David Alfred(Merthyr
Caldwell, James Labouchere, Henry Thomas,JA.(Glamorgan,Gower
Canston, Richard Knight Levy, Maurice Tomkinson, James
Cawley, Frederick Lyell, Charles Henry Toulmin, George
Cullinan, J. Moss, Samuel Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Murphy, John White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Doogan, P. C. Nolan. Joseph (Louth, South) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Edwards, Frank Norman, Henry Wilson, Henry J. (York,W.R.)
Elibank, Master of O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary, Mid
Ellire,CaptEC (S.Andrw'sBghs O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Flavin, Michael Joseph Rickett, J. Compton Herbert Gladstone and Mr. William M'Arthur.
Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E.(Berwick Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)
NOES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Finch, Ht. Hon. George H. Murray, RtHn A. Graham(Bute
Anson, Sir William Reynell Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Murray, Col.Wyndham (Bath)
Arkwright, John Stanhope Fitzroy, Hon. EdwardAlgernon Pemberton, John S. G.
Arnold-Forster,RtHn.Hugh O Forster, Henry William Percy, Earl
Arrol, Sir William Foster, Philip S.(Warwick,SW. Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Galloway, William Johnson Plummer, Sir Walter R.
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Gibbs, Hon. A.G.H. Pretyman, Ernest George
Bailey, James (Walworth) Gordon, J. (Londonderry,South Rankin, Sir James
Bain, Colonel James Robert Green,Walford D.(Wednesbury Reid, James (Greenock)
Balcarres, Lord Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury Remnant, James Farquharson
Balfour,Rt.Hn. A. J. (Manch'r Grenfell, William Henry Renwick, George
Balfour, Rt.Hon. G. W. (Leeds) Gretton, John Ridley,Hon.M.W. (Stalybridge
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Groves, James Grimble Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Blundell, Colonel Henry Hall, Edward Marshall Royds, Clement Molyvneux
Brassey, Albert Hamilton, Marg. of (L'donderry Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St John Hay, Hon. Claude George Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool
Brotherton, Edward Allen Heath, Arthur Howard Hanley Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford
Butcher, John George Heath, James (Staffords.,N.W Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Campbell,J.H.M. (DublinUniv. Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Hope, J.F.(Sheffield,Brightside Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)
Cautley, Henry Strother Hunt, Rowland Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East
Cavendish,V.C. W. (Derbyshire Jessel, Captain HerbertMerton Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Kerr, John Spear, John Ward
Chamberlain,RtHm JA (Wore Keswick, William Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk
Chapman, Edward Knowles, Sir Lees Stanley, Rt.Hn. Lord (Lancs.)
Charrington, Spencer Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Clive, Captain Percy A. Lee,ArthurH.(Hants.,Fareham Talbot,Rt.Hn.J.G. (Ox f'dUniv.
Coates, Edward Feetham Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Tuff, Charles
Compton, Lord Alwyne Leveson-Gower, FrederickN.S. Valentia, Viscount
Corbett, T. L. (Down North) Long,Rt.Hn.Walter (Bristol,S, Walrond,Rt.Hn.Sir William H.
Craig,Charles Curtis (Antrim, S Loyd, Archie Kirkman Warde, Colonel C. E.
Crossley, Rt. Hn. Sir Savile Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Webb, Colonel William George
Dalkeith, Earl of M`Killop, James (Stirlingshire Whiteley, H. (Ashton undLyne
Davenport W. Bromley Manners, Lord Cecil Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Davies,SirHoratio D (Chatham Massey-Mainwaring,Hn. W. F. Wylie, Alexander
Dickson, Charles Scott Maxwell,RtHn Sir H.E.(Wigt'n Wyndham, Rt. Hn. George
Dimsdale,Rt.Hn. Sir Joseph C. Maxwell, W.J.H. (Dumfriess Wyndham-Quin, (Col.W. H.
Doughty, Sir George Maxwell, WJH (Dumfriesshire
Douglas, Rt.Hn. A. Akers- Melville, Beresford Valentine
Doxford, Sir William Theodore Milvain, Thomas TELLERS FOR THE NOES, Sir
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Alexander Acland- Hood
Dyke, Rt.Hn. Sir WilliamHart Morgan,DavidJ.(Walthmstow and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.
Fergusson,Rt.Hn.SirJ.(Manc'r Morrell, George Herbert
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Mount, William Arthur

Original Question again proposed.

MR. BUCHANAN

said that the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not give the Committee any adequate explanation of the Bill. It was a Bill of the most important and far-reaching character. It amended seven Acts of Parliament, and made other alterations not alluded to by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He gathered that the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed to provide money by setting up terminable annuities to be repaid in about thirty years. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was in difficulties, and could not any longer get money from the National Debt Commissioners for these particular purposes. As he understood it, the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed to substitute for the existing form of terminable annuities, set up under the various Acts concerned, the issue of Treasury Bonds. He did not tell the Committee if there was any limit to these bonds or what the duration of them would be; and he said absolutely nothing as to whether a sinking fund would be established.

MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN

said that with regard to the rate of the exact currency of the bonds he must be guided by the circumstances of the time at which they were issued. Provision would be made by the Treasury for the discharge of the loan out of sums to be annually provided by Parliament within a period not exceeding the period fixed by the Act which authorised the borrowing.

MR. BUCHANAN

asked if the new bonds would be in the same position as the existing Exchequer Bonds.

MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN

said they would be in the same position except as regarded a special provision for a sinking fund.

MR. BUCHANAN

said that the right hon. Gentleman proposed to raise £9,250,000, and set up a security of a much more permanent character than that which now existed. At present there was a floating debt of between £49,000,000 and £50,000,000 outstanding. The policy down to 1899 was to reduce that debt as far as possible; and great progress in that direction was made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Monmouth and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bristol. Since then £13,000,000 of Treasury Bills and £20,000,000 of Treasury Bonds had been issued as the result of the war; and now the Chancellor of the Exchequer was proposing a very considerable addition to this particular form of debt. He thought the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman was evidence of the financial embarrassment in which the recent expenditure of the Government had involved the country. They were piling up expenditure year after year, and were endeavouring to meet it by borrowing money under various Acts of Parliament. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was always fond of pointing to his hon. friend the Member for Dundee and saying that it was he who began the Naval Works Acts. He would not defend his hon. friend beyond saying that the first Naval Works Act was an Act far a special purpose. The present Government, however, turned it into a system; and they could not be altogether disappointed when they found an important part of that system breaking down. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be able to give the Committee an assurance that there would be no further extension of this pernicious and wasteful system.

MR. LYELL (Dorsetshire, E.)

said that there was one statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer which ought not to be allowed to pass without criticism, and that was that no new principle was involved in this matter, because the Committee were already committed to the expenditure which was now proposed. It seemed to him to be an analogous case to that of a small boy who stole apples, his defence being that the apples were eaten, and that, therefore, all moral delinquency had ceased. He hoped some information would be given on the matter.

MR. COURTENAY WARNER (Staffordshire, Lichfield)

said that up to the present this money was always raised by terminable annuities which provided their own sinking fund. As far as he understood the matter, the money would be provided for the extinction of this debt year by year. That was not quite the same thing as a terminable annuity.

MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN

said that the charge appeared in the Votes now, and would appear in the Votes in the future.

MR. COURTENAY WARNER

said there was one objection to that course, and that was that a future Chancellor of the Exchequer might not carry out the course adopted by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer. It would have been better if there were terminable annuities. Another objection was the rate of interest they would have to pay. Three and a-half per cent. would have to be paid for this money. Bad as was the credit of the Government—and as long as these expedients were adopted it was not likely to improve—they could get the money at 3 per cent., instead of 3½ per cent., by an issue of Consols. The so-called floating debt was becoming practically permanent, and seeing that there was no prospect of the money being paid off, that extra ½ per cent. was a serious matter. A further issue of Consols would have a less detrimental effect upon prices than subterfuges of this kind. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer would give some indication of the amount to be raised by terminable annuities it would remove some of the objection entertained to this Resolution.

MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN

was understood to say that the sum depended upon the amount deposited in the savings bank this year, but he should think it would be about £3,000,000.

MR. RUNCIMAN

said the debate had been justified by the information which he derived. It now appeared that £6,500,000 and not £9,500,000 was raised by Exchequer bonds, and £3,000,000 by terminable annuities. The Committee was entitled to have some estimate of the additional burden that was to be laid upon the country. How were the annuities which appeared on the Votes each year to be applied? Further, how much was to be placed on the Estimates against this £9,500,000? Would it be 4 per cent. to cover interest and some repayment of capital, or what would it be? He protested against the Committee being asked at two o'clock in the morning in the month of August to endorse a huge loan of this description. The Chancellor of the Exchequer would have done better to have stated, when he dealt with the general financial situation of the country, that he was likely to be in these straits; the House would then have been better able to estimate the real financial position. The ordinary means of providing for works accounts were entirely exhausted. By placing these bonds upon the market the right hon. Gentlemen would not only have to pay 3½ per cent. interest, an amount unprecedented in the last fifty years, but he would be actually depressing his own stock.

MR. AINSWORTH (Argyllshire)

submitted that this expenditure had been sanctioned on the clear understanding that the money would be provided for by terminable annuities. He remembered the Chancellor of the Exchequer saying that they could not issue terminable annuities beyond a certain amount, because the quantity taken up by the public was strictly a limited question. The Government had now reached that limited amount. In one of the largest municipalities in Great Britain the chief magistrate told him that their indebtedness cost them less than 3 per cent. Why should the British Empire be unable to borrow at a worse rate of interest than a municipality? Because the Government did not understand finance. The only road to success in finance was economy. It would now go forth to the City of London that the Chancellor of the Exchequer could no longer issue terminable annuities, and that he was obliged to issue Exchequer Bonds at 3½ per cent. to be repaid from time to time. He thought they were entitled to ask what time, and they ought to know also how much would be set aside for this. purpose in the Budget next year.

*MR. HERBERT SAMUEL (Yorkshire, Cleveland)

asked why it was necessary to ask for money for capital expenditure in regard to the Uganda Railway, seeing that the railway had been completed and no further capital expenditure ought consequently to be required. The line had been quite completed and the viaducts finished, the committee formed to construct the railway had been dissolved, and the railway had been handed over to the British East Africa Protectorate. Under these circumstances they ought to have some information why the House was still asked to vote £219,000 for this purpose which the right hon. Gentleman proposed to go into the market to borrow.

MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN

said that the sum mentioned remained over for payment this year.

MR. TOULMIN (Lancashire, Bury)

asked if the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made any estimate of the cost of raising this sum of money in this way. He thought some reasons ought to be given why Exchequer Bonds had been chosen. He did not know whether it was preferable to issue for a long or a short period on such an occasion as this, but there was the great disadvantage that when they matured they would have to he renewed, and each time they had to he renewed fresh charges were incurred. The advantage of terminable annuities is that their operation is regular, and their effect on the market can easily be ascertained and provided for. The real reason why the Chancellor of the Exchequer has

had to take this step is that he has been borrowing as much as he has been paying off. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer had provided more money for the reduction of the National Debt, the National Debt Commissioners would have had more money in hand, and this recourse to Exchequer bonds would not have taken place to so great an extent. He should like to know whether the extra cost involved in raising this money would be charged against the naval and military services. Would the annual Estimates be increased by that extra amount? Would the annual payments entirely extinguish the Exchequer Bonds as would have been done in the case of terminable annuities?

MR. TOMKINSON (Cheshire, Crewe)

rose to continue the discussion.

Mr. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 122; Noes, 53. (Division List No. 298.)

AYES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Hunt, Rowland
Anson, Sir William Reynell Dalkeith, Earl of Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton
Arkwright, John Stanhope Davenport, William Bromley Kerr, John
Arnold-Forster,Rt.Hn.Hugh O Davies,Sir HoratioD.(Chatham Keswick, William
Arrol, Sir William Dickson, Charles Scott Knowles, Sir Lees
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Dimsdale, Rt.Hn. Sir Joseph C. Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Doughty, Sir George Lee,ArthurH(Hants.,Fareham)
Bailey, James (Walworth) Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)
Bain, Colonel James Robert Doxford, Sir William Theodore Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage
Balcarres, Lord Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.
Balfour, Rt.Hon. A.J.(Manch'r Dyke, Rt.Hn.Sir William Hart Long, Rt.Hn. Walter(Bristol,S.)
Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W.(Leeds) Fergusson, RtHn.Sir J.(Manc'r Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred
Blundell, Colonel Henry Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)
Brassey, Albert Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Manners, Lord Cecil
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John. Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon Massey-Mainwaring. Hn. W. F.
Brotherton, Edward Allen Forster, Henry William Maxwell,RtHn.Sir H.E(Wigt'n
Butcher, John George Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S.W.) Maxwell, W.J.H. (Dumfriessh.)
Campbell, J.H.M(DublinUniv. Galloway, William Johnson Milvain, Thomas
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H. Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)
Cautley, Henry Strother Gordon, J.(Londonderry,South Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)
Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire Green,Walford D.(Wednesbury Morrell, George Herbert
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Grenfell, William Henry Mount, William Arthur
Chamberlain,Rt Hn.J.A(Worc. Gretton, John Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute)
Chapman, Edward Groves, James Grimble Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Charrington, Spencer Hall, Edward Marshall Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Clive, Captain Percy A. Hamilton,Marq of(L'nd'nderry Plummer, Sir Walter R.
Coates, Edward Feetham Hay, Hon. Claude George Pretyman, Ernest George
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley Rankin, Sir James
Compton, Lord Alwyne Heath, James (Staffords., N.W. Reid, James (Greenock)
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Remnant, James Farquharson
Craig,Charles Curtis(Antrim, S.) Hope, J.F.(Sheffield,Brightside Renwick, George
Ridley, Hon. M. W.(Staly bridge Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East) Warde, Colonel C. E.
Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Webb, Colonel William George
Royds, Clement Molyneux Spear, John Ward Whiteley, H.(Ashton und.Lyne
Rutherford, John (Lancashire) Stanley, Hn. Arthur(Ormskirk) Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) Stanley Rt. Hon. Lord(Lancs.) Wylie, Alexander
Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.
Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander Tomlinson, Sir Win. Edw. M.
Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) Tuff, Charles TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir
Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln) Valentia, Viscount Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.
Sinclair, Louis (Romford) Walrond, Rt.Hn.Sir WilliamH.
NOES.
Ainsworth, John Stirling Horniman, Frederick John Shackleton, David James
Barran, Rowland Hirst Jones, William(Carnarvonshire Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Benn, John Williams Joyce, Michael Soares, Ernest. J.
Boland, John Kennedy, VincentP.(Cavan,W. Stanhope, Hon. Philip James
Brigg, John Kilbride, Denis Sullivan, Donal
Bright, Allan Heywood Labouchere, Henry Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Levy, Maurice Thomas, D. Alfred (Merthyr)
Caldwell, James Lloyd-George, David Thomas,J A(Glamorgan,Gower
Causton, Richard Knight Lyell, Charles Henry Tomkinson, James
Churchill, Winston Spencer Moss, Samuel Toulmin, George
Cullinan, J. Murphy, John Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Doogan, P. C. Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Edwards, Frank Norman, Henry White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Elibank, Master of O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Flavin, Michael Joseph O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E.(Berwick) Rickett, J. Compton
Griffith, Ellis J. Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.
Harcourt, Lewis V.(Rossendale Runciman, Walter Herbert Gladstone and Mr. William M'Arthur.
Higham, John Sharpe Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Question put accordingly.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 123; Noes, 53. (Division List No. 299.)

AYES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Davenport, William Bromley Knowles, Sir Lees
Anson, Sir William Reynell Davies, SirHoratioD.(Chatham Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)
Arkwright, John Stanhope Dickson, Charles Scott Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham)
Arnold-Forster,Rt.Hn.HughO. Dimsdale, Rt.Hn. Sir Joseph C. Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)
Arrol, Sir William Doughty, Sir George Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Doxford, Sir William Theodore Long, Rt.Hn. Walter(Bristol,S.)
Bailey, James (Walworth) Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Bain, Colonel James Robert Dyke, Rt.Hn.Sir William Hart Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred
Balcarres, Lord Fergusson,Rt.Hn.Sir J(Manc'r M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)
Balfour, Rt.Hon. A.J.(Manch'r Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Manners, Lord Cecil
Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W.(Leeds) Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Massey-Main waring, Hn. W. F.
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Maxwell,RtHn.Sir H.E(Wigt'n
Blundell, Colonel Henry Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon Maxwell, W.J.H.(Dumfriessh.)
Brassey, Albert Forster, Henry William Milvain, Thomas
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S.W.) Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)
Brotherton, Edward Allen Galloway, William Johnson Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)
Butcher, John George Gibbs Hon. A. G. H. Morrell, George Herbert
Campbell, J.H.M.(DublinUniv. Gordon, J.(Londonderry,South Mount, William Arthur
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Green,Walford D.(Wednesbury Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute)
Cautley, Henry Strother Grenfell, William Henry Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire Gretton, John Percy, Earl
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Groves, James Grimble Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Chamberlain,Rt Hn.J.A(Worc. Hall, Edward Marshall Plummer, Sir Walter R.
Chapman, Edward Hamilton,Marq of(L'nd'nderry Pretyman, Ernest George
Charrington, Spencer Hay, Hon. Claude George Rankin, Sir James
Clive, Captain Percy A. Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley Reid, James (Greenock)
Coates, Edward Feetham Heath, James (Staffords., N. W Remnant, James Farquharson
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Renwick, George
Compton, Lord Alwyne Hope, J.F.(Sheffield,Brightside Ridley, Hon M.W.(Stalybridge
Corbett. T. L. (Down, North) Hunt, Rowland Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Craig,Charles Curtis(Antrim,S.) Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton Royds, Clement Molyneux
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Kerr, John Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Dalkeith, Earl of Keswick, William Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord(Lanes.) Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Wylie, Alexander
Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.
Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln) Tuff, Charles
Sinclair, Louis (Romford) Valentia, Viscount TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir
Smith, Abel H. (Hertford,East) Walrond, Rt.Hn.Sir WilliamH. Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.
Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Warde, Colonel C. E.
Spear, John Ward Webb, Colonel Williams George
Stanley, Hn. Arthur(Ormskirk) Whiteley, H.(Ashtonund.Lyne
NOES.
Ainsworth, John Stirling Horniman, Frederick John Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Barran, Rowland Hirst Jones, William(Carnarvonshire Shackleton, David James
Benn, John Williams Joyce, Michael Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Boland, John Kennedy, VincentP.(Cavan.W. Soares, Ernest J.
Brigg, John Kilbride, Denis Stanhope, Hon. Philip James
Bright, Allan Heywood Labouchere, Henry Sullivan, Donal
Caldwell, James Levy, Maurice Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Causton, Richard Knight Lloyd-George, David Thomas, D. Alfred (Merthyr)
Churchill, Winston Spencer Lyell, Charles Henry Thomas,J A(Glamorgan,Gower
Cullinan, J. M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) Tomkinson, James
Doogan, P. C. Moss, Samuel Toiihnin, George
Edwards, Frank Murphy, John Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Elibank, Master of Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Flavin. Michael Joseph Norman, Henry Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Gladstone,Rt.Hn.Herbert John O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.) Wilson, Henry J. (York. W.R.)
Grey, Rt. En. Sir E.(Berwiek) O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Griffith, Ellis J. Rickett. J. Compton TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Harcourt, Lewis V.(Rossendale Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Mr. Trevelyan and Mr. Buchanan.
Higham, John Sharpe Runciman, Walter

Resolved, That it is expedient to authorise the Treasury to borrow, by means of Exchequer Bonds, any sums which they are authorised to borrow by means of terminable annuities, the principal of and interest on such Exchequer Bonds to be charged on the Consolidated Fund, and to make provision for the dis-

charge of any sums so borrowed out of moneys annually provided by Parliament.

Question put, "That the Chairman do report this Resolution to the House."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 123; Noes, 53. (Division List No. 300.)

AYES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Coates, Edward Feecham Grenfell, William Henry
Anson, Sir William Reynell Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Gretton, John
Arkwright, John Stanhope Compton, Lord Alwyne Groves, James Grimble
Arnold-Forster,Rt.Hn.Hugh O Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Hall, Edward Marshall
Arrol, Sir William Craig, Chas. Curtis(Antrim S. Hamilton,Marq.of (L'donderry
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Hay, Hon. Claude George
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Dalkeith, Earl of Heath,ArthurHoward(Hanley)
Bailey, James (Walworth) Davenport. W. Bromley Heath, Jas. (Statlords. N. W.)
Bain, Colonel James Robert Davies,Sir HoratioD.(Chatham Hermon-Hodge, Sir RobertT.
Balcarres, Lord Dickson, Charles Scott Hope,J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside
Balfour.Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r Dimsdale,Rt.Hn. SirJoseph C. Hunt, Rowland
Balour,RtHoGerald W.(Leeds' Doughty, Sir George Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton,
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers- Kerr, John
Blundell, Colonel Henry Doxford, Sir William Theodore Keswick, William
Brassey, Albert Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Knowles, Sir Lees
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Dyke,Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart Law, Andrew Bonar(Glasgow)
Brotherton, Edward Allen Fergusson,Rt.Hn.Sir J.(Manc'r Lee,ArthurH.(Hants. Fareham
Butcher, John George Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)
Campbell,J.H.M.(Dublin Univ. Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Leveson-Gower,Frederick N.S.
Cautley, Henry Strother Fitzroy, Hon.Edward Algernon Long,RtHn. Walter(Bristol,S)
Cavendish, V.C. W. (Derbyshire Forster, Henry William Loyd. Archie Kirkman
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Foster Philip S.(Warwick S.W. Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred
Chamberlain,RtHn.J.A.(Worc. Galloway, William Johnson M`Killop, James (Stirlingshire)
Chapman, Edward Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H. Manners, Lord Cecil
Charrington, Spencer Gordon,J.(Londonderry,South Massey-Mainwaring, Hn.W.F.
Clive, Captain Percy A. Green,WalfordD.(Wednesbury Maxwell RtHn.Sir H.E(Wigt'n
Maxwell W.J.H(Dumfriesshire Ridley, Hn. M.W.(Stalybridge Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Milvain, Thomas Robertson. Herbert (Hackney) Tuff, Charles
Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Royds, Clement Molyneux Valentia, Viscount
Morgan,DavidJ.(Walthamstow Rutherford, John (Lancashire) Walrond,Rt.Hn Sir William H.
Morrell, George Herbert Rutherford, W. W.(Liverpool) Warde, Colonel C. E.
Mount, William Arthur Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford Webb, Colonel William George
Murray,Rt.H.A.Graham(Bute) Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander Whiteley,H.(Ashton und.Lyne
Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Percy, Earl Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln) Wylie, Alexander
Platt-Higgins, Frederick Sinclair, Louis (Romford) Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.
Plummer, Sir Walter R. Smith, Abel H.(Hertford,East)
Pretyman, Ernest George Smith. Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Rankin, Sir James Spear, John Ward Sir Alexander Acland-Hood
Reid, James (Greenock) Stanley, Hn.Arthur(Ormskirk and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.
Remnant, James Farquharson Stanley, Rt. Ho. Lord (Lanes.)
Renwick, George Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
NOES.
Ainsworth, John Stirling Higham, John Sharpe Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)
Barran, Rowland Hirst Horniman, Frederick John Shackleton, David James
Benn, John Williams Jones,William (Carnarvonshire Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Boland, John Joyce, Michael Stanhope, Hon. Philip James
Brigg, John Kennedy, Vincent P.(Cavan.W. Sullivan, Donal
Bright, Allan Heywood Kilbride, Denis Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Labouchere, Henry Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr)
Caldwell, James Levy, Maurice Thomas,JA (Glamorgan,Gower
Causton, Richard Knight Lloyd-George, David Tomkinson, James
Churchill, Winston Spencer Lyell, Charles Henry Toulmin, George
Cullinan, J. M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Doogan, P. C. Moss, Samuel Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Edwards, Frank Murphy, John White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Elibank, Master of Nolan, Joseph (Louth,South) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Flavin, Michael Joseph Norman, Henry Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.
Gladstone, Rt. Hn.HerbertJohn O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary,Mid
Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick) O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Griffith, Ellis J. Rickett, J. Compton Mr. Soares and Mr. Herbert Roberts.
Harcourt, Lewis V.(Rosendale Runciman, Walter

Resolution to be reported this day.