§ * THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Sir WILLIAM ANSON,) Oxford Universitysaid he desired to ask leave to introduce a Bill to make provision for the case of default on the part of local authorities in the performance of their duties as respects elementary schools, and to introduce a procedure in addition to that which existed under the Act of 1902, but more prompt and effective and cheaper. He hoped to explain the measure in no 1204 acrimonious or controversial spirit. Before the Act of 1902, the Board of Education possessed the power in the case of voluntary schools to take measures for the establishment of a School Board if the managers showed themselves unable or unwilling to conduct a school in the way in which an elementary school should be conducted. If a School Board failed to comply with the conditions under which elementary schools should be conducted, the Board of Education could declare the School Board in default and appoint other persons to do the duties of the School Board —persons whom they nominated and could displace at their pleasure—until the default was made good. What were the circumstances now? A local education authority, from motives which he did not question or criticise, determined that it would not appoint managers on the board of management of elementary schools. It declined to sanction or to consider the appointment of teachers, to make provision for the supply of coal, books, and other necessaries of the school, and it did these things without alleging the schools to be unnecessary, or offering to provide a substitute. The managers complained to the Board of Education; the Board of Education communicated with the local authority; and correspondence of some length took place unsatisfactory to all the parties concerned. After a time the Board decided that a public inquiry should be held. Notice had to be given, and this occupied time. The Commissioner held a public inquiry, which also occupied time and cost money to the local authorities. In due time the Commissioner digested the evidence and sent in a Report to the Board of Education. The Board then had to consider what order should be made in the circumstances. Having made their order, the local authority next considered whether it would obey the order. If it determined not to obey the order, the Board had then to consider whether the severe penalties available in the circumstances should be put in operation. In the meantime, what was happening to the schools and to the children? The schools had no properly constituted body of managers, and the children were going without teachers, without coal, without books, and 1205 without apparatus. It was obvious that such a state of things could not be allowed to exist. He therefore asked the House to give the Board of Education the powers necessary to meet the facts he had described.
In the first place, the Bill gave power to the Board, where the local authorities were in default, to make an order which would render valid the things done, such as the appointment of a teacher, which, owing to the default of the local authority, would be invalid, and where the managers, in order to satisfy the necessary requirements of the school, incurred expense, to repay to the managers the money they had expended. The money so repaid to the managers would be a debt due to the Crown, and without prejudice to any other remedy, might be deducted by the Board from the amount of Parliamentary grant payable to the local authority. The remedy had those advantages: to was prompt and effective, it involved the minimum interference with the action of the local authority who had the whole area of education open to them, except in so far as the Board intervened to do certain acts and order certain payments; it had this further advantage, that it stopped automatically as the evil stopped. As soon as the local authority made good the default and supplied the necessaries for the school, circumstances would resume their ordinary course. This mode of remedy for this kind of default would be necessary at any time in respect of any school in any part of the kingdom; but it would be childish to ignore the fact that the matter had been brought home to the Government by what had recently happened in Wales. The Board knew what the cause of the trouble was. It was the religious difficulty which haunted and troubled our system of elementary education. In a debate which took place before Easter a desire was expressed on both sides of the House that some settlement of their religious difficulty might be found. He could not say how earnestly he echoed that desire. He endorsed every word that had been uttered on the previous evening by the President of the Board, speaking at Carnarvon, and in the debates on this Bill no word would fall from him which would kindle one spark of ill-feeling or 1206 prejudice a settlement such as would meet the wishes of all. But differences of old standing could not be settled in a day, and he had to think of the schools and the children. The Government could not stand aside: and while religious parties were settling their differences the House would not wish and the Welsh Members surely would not wish to see the children of the poor going without the small comforts and appliances in the elementary schools, and thereby losing the benefit of the system of elementary education which the House had done so much to further.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision for the case of default on the part of Local Authorities in the performance of their duties as respects Elementary Schools."—(Sir William Anson.)
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGE (Carnarvon Boroughs)said it was a remarkable thing that within a couple of years of the passing of the Education Act a Coercion Bill of this kind had to be introduced to enforce it. They had been told that the Education Act was working smoothly in all parts of the country, but here was the admission being made by the Government that the Act was a failure as far as Wales was concerned. He had not a word to say as to the tone of the speech of the hon. Baronet, but he was bound to take note of the character of the Bill and to take exception to certain statements which had been made. The hon. Gentleman said there were parts of Wales in which no teachers had been appointed, where there was no fuel supplied to the schools, and he asked how it came about that this was not done? As a matter of fact there was no part of the country where that was done and where the schools were not better off than they were prior to 1902. The county councils had faithfully administered all the funds placed at their disposal by Parliament, which meant that the schools were in a much better position than they were in 1902, because they were getting in addition the grant in aid, every penny of which was paid to the schools. It was exceedingly unfair on the part of these managers that they should ask the House 1207 of Commons to believe that the Welsh county councils were withholding funds which Parliament had placed at their disposal for the benefit of these schools. If the children were left without fuel all he could say was it was a disgrace to the managers and not to the Welsh county councils.
Undoubtedly there had been a misunderstanding with regard to some counties. He thought personally that the county of Carmarthen ought to have appointed managers and superintended the appointment of teachers. At the same time it was perfectly well known what the feeling was in Wales. Even Churchmen were prepared to accept the decision come to by the county councils. Having regard to the fact that there was a state of considerable bitterness and that the present law was not agreeable to the bulk of the Welsh people, they were disposed to allow matters to remain in statu quo until Parliament considered the full question. That was the view of certain Bishops with the exception of one. In Carmarthenshire practically the whole of the council were prepared to accept that policy except three, and even the leaders of the Church party were prepared to accept it. He, therefore, asked the right hon. Gentleman whether it would not be better to leave matters as they were. When the hon. Gentleman announced his intention to send down a Commissioner to Carmarthen to hold an inquiry he appealed to him to instruct the Commissioner to inquire into the whole of the educational condition of the county, and he was under the impression that the Commissioner would do so. The Commissioner was an exceedingly able man and was perfectly fair, but when the county council wanted to present the whole of their case he said he had no instructions. When the county council appealed to the Commissioner to hear the case on behalf of the Nonconformists who were the great majority of the population, the Commissioner said he had no instructions. The hon. Gentleman, therefore, did not know what was the state of things in Carmarthenshire. The hon. Gentleman said the county councils were acting thus without alleging that the 1208 schools were unnecessary, but they did allege after a careful report by a competent surveyor that all these schools were insanitary and the Board of Education did not challenge that assertion. The bulk of them were insanitary and not fit to send children to. One of the points of the county council was that the Board of Education ought not to administer the Act until the managers had put the schools in a sanitary condition. Would hon. Members believe that the Commssioner actually refused to hear evidence as to whether the schools were fit to send the children to, or not, although the county council was prepared with expert evidence. Was it surprising that in Carmarthen the county council was unwilling to accept the responsibility of enforcing an Act which was driving children to schools which were insanitary and unhealthy and not fit for the purpose for which they were designed.
That was the situation. The Government would have been better advised if they had faced the real situation. There was no demand in Wales for the enforcement of the Act as it stood. He desired to call attention to the state of the Government Benches, for there was only one Welsh Member sitting on the Ministerial side, and he was retiring at the next election. Did that show a real demand for this Bill? Would it not have been better if the Government had inquired into the real facts, for they were dealing with a population which was sincerely desirous of working any Education Act which would advance education and administer it fairly between all classes. The Intermediate Education Act had been administered in Wales without a single complaint from Churchmen and the country councils were appointing Church teachers and also Catholic teachers. The Government were simply wasting the time of Parliament by a Bill of this sort which would simply convert the Board of Education into a debt-collecting agency. It was an undignified and unstatesman like proceeding, and he appealed to the Government to get the whole facts of the situation and introduce legislation that would 1209 settle the question upon terms which would be acceptable to the vast majority of people of all creeds and all sections in Wales.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 262; Noes, 110. (Division List No. 93.)
1211| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) | Doogan, P. C. | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop. |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Dorington, Rt Hon. Sir John E. | Kilbride, Denis |
| Aird, Sir John | Doughty, George | Kimber, Henry |
| Allsopp, Hon. George | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers | Knowles, Sir Lees |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Duke, Henry Edward | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Laurie, Lieut-General |
| Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O. | Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) |
| Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir H. | Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | Lawson, Jn. G. (Yorks., N. R.) |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Esmonde, Sir Thomas | Leamy, Edmund |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) | Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham) |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Fardell, Sir T. George | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Farrell, James Patrick | Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. |
| Balcarres, Lord | Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J.(Manc'r | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r | Ffrench, Peter | Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.) |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Lowe, Francis William |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W. (Leeds | Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Lundon, W. |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose | Macdona, John dimming |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Flannery, Sir Fortescue | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift |
| Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor) | Flower, Sir Ernest | Maconochie, A. W. |
| Bartley, Sir George C. T. | Forster, Henry William | MacVeagh, Jeremiah |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Foster, Philip S. (Wanvick, S. W. | M'Calmont, Colonel James |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Mich. Hicks | Fyler, John Arthur | M'Fadden, Edward |
| Bignold, Arthur | Galloway, William Johnson | M'Hugh, Patrick A. |
| Blake, Edward | Gardner, Ernest | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Garfit, William | Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H. E. (Wigt'n |
| Boland, John | Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn) | Maxwell, W.J.H. (Dumfriessh.) |
| Bond, Edward | Gore, Hn G.R.C. Ormsby (Salop | Meygey-Thompson, Sir H. M. |
| Boulnois, Edmund | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Bowles, Lt.-Col. H. F (Middlesex | Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | Mitchell, William (Burnley) |
| Bowles, T. Gibson (King'sLynn | Graham, Henry Robert | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy |
| Brassey, Albert | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Greene, Sir E W. (B'rySEdm'nds | Morpeth, Viscount |
| Brotherton, Edward Allen | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) | Morrell, George Herbert |
| Bull, William James | Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.) | Morrison, James Archibald |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Grenfell, William Henry | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer |
| Burke, E. Haviland | Gretton, John | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. |
| Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ. | Gunter, Sir Robert | Murnaghan, George |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. | Murphy, John |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Hamilton, Marq, of (L'nd'nderry | Murray, Rt Hn. A. Graham (Bute- |
| Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire | Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Nannetti, Joseph P. |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th) | Nicholson, William Graham |
| Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A. (Worc. | Hayden, John Patrick | Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N.) |
| Chapman, Edward | Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) |
| Give, Captain Percy A. | Heaton, John Henniker | O'Brien, James F. N. (Cork) |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Helder, Augustus | O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. | O'Brien, P. J. (TipperarY, N.) |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Hickman, Sir Alfred | O'Doherty, William |
| Colomb, Rt. Hon. Sir John C.R. | Hobhouse. Rt Hn H. (Somers't, E | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) |
| Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Hogg, Lindsay | O'Dowd, John |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N. |
| Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Hornby, Sir William Henry | O'Malley, William |
| Crean, Eugene | Houldsworth, Sir Wm, Henry | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens |
| Cripps, Charles Alfred | Houston, Robert Paterson | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) | Parker, Sir Gilbert |
| Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile | Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil | Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington) |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley |
| Davenport, William Bromley | Hunt, Rowland | Pemberton, John S. G. |
| Delany, William | Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse | Percy, Earl |
| Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) | Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred. | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton | Pilkington, Colonel Richard |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Plummer, Walter R. | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Samuel, Sir H.S. (Limehouse) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Power, Patrick Joseph | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | Waldron, Laurence Ambrose |
| Pretyman, Ernest George | Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln) | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H |
| Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | Sharpe, William Edward T. | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Pym, C. Guy | Sheehy, David | Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C. E (Taunton |
| Quilter, Sir Cuthbert | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) | Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts.) |
| Rankin, Sir James | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) | Whiteley, H(Ashton und. Lyne |
| Rasch, Sir Frederick Carne | Smith, H. C (North'mb. Tyneside | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Ratcliff, R. F. | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.) | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Reddy, M. | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) |
| Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich) | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Reid. James (Greenock) | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.) | Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H.(Yorks. |
| Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine | Stewait, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R.(Bath |
| Ridley, Ha. M.W.(Stalybridge) | Stock, James Henry | Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson |
| Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green | Stone, Sir Benjamin | Wrightson, Sir Thomas |
| Ritchie, Rt. Hn.Chas. Thomson | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley | Wylie, Alexander |
| Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) | Sullivan, Donal | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) | Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H. |
| Roche, John | Talbot, Rt. Hn., J. G. (Ox f 'd Univ. | Young, Samuel |
| Rothschild, Hn. Lionel Walter | Thompson, Dr. E C (Monag'h'n, N | |
| Round, Rt. Hon. James | Thorburn, Sir Walter | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes. |
| Royds, Clement Molyneux | Thornton, Percy N. | |
| Rutherford, John (Lancashire) | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. | |
| Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford | Tuff, Charles | |
| NOES. | ||
| Allen, Charles P. | Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E. | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Holland, Sir William Henry | Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) |
| Brand, Hon. Arthur G. | Horniman, Frederick John | Rose, Charles Day |
| Brigg, John | Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. | Russell, T. W. |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk. | Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland) |
| Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Jacoby, James Alfred | Schwann, Charles E. |
| Bryee, Rt. Hon. James | Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea) | Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
| Burt, Thomas | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) |
| Caldwell, James | Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington | Slack, John Bamford |
| Cameron, Robert | Leng, Sir John | Smith, Samuel (Flint) |
| Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Levy, Maurice | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Cawley, Frederick | Lewis, John Herbert | Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R (Northants |
| Crombie, John William | Lloyd-George, David | Strachey, Sir Edward |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Lough, Thomas | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Lyell, Charles Henry | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) |
| Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | M'Crae, George | Thomas, D. Alfred (Merthyr) |
| Dobbie, Joseph | M'Kenna, Reginald | Tomkinson, James |
| Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Toulmin, George |
| Edwards, Frank | Middle-more, John Throgmorton | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Ellice, Capt E C (S. Andew's Bghs | Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N. | Ure, Alexander |
| Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Wallace, Robert |
| Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T |
| Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Morley, Rt. Hon. John(Montrose | Wason, Jn. Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) | Moss, Samuel | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Foster, Sir Michael (Lond. Univ. | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Whiteley, George (York, W.R.) |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Palmer, Sir Chas. M. (Durham) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Grant, Corrie | Partington, Oswald | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.) |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) | Wilson, J.W.(Worcestersh. N.) |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Pirie, Duncan V. | Woodhouse, Sir J. T (Huddersf'd |
| Harcourt, Lewis V. (Rossendale | Price, Robert John | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Harcourt, Rt Hn Sir W (Monm'th | Rea, Russell | |
| Harwood, George | Reckitt, Harold James | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. Causton. |
| Helme, Norval Watson | Rickett, J. Compton | |
| Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Rigg, Richard |
§ Bill ordered to be brought in by Sir William Anson, Mr. Walter Long, and
§ Mr. Attorney-General.