Commons Sitting of 28 May 1903

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.

UNOPPOSED PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Dublin, Wicklow, and Wexford Railway Bill. Read the third time, and passed. (New Title.)
Great Southern and Western Railway Bill; Midland Great Western Railway of Ireland Bill; Mullingar, Kells, and Drogheda Railway Bill; Plymouth Corporation Bill; Woolwich Borough Council Bill. Read the third time and passed.
Exeter Railway Bill [Lords], (not amended). Considered; to be read the third time.
Lanarkshire and Dumbartonshire Railway Bill; Middlesbrough Corporation Bill. As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
Private Bills, etc. Ordered, That Standing Orders 39, 129, and 230 be suspended, and that the time for depositing Petitions and Memorials against Private Bills, or against any Bill to confirm any Provisional Order or Provisional Certificate, and for depositing duplicates of any Documents relating to any Bill to confirm any Provisional Order or Provisional Certificate, also for depositing at the Private Bill Office all Documents relating to any Order under The Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, be extended to the first day on which the House shall sit after the Recess.—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.)
Caledonian Railway Order Confirmation Bill. Bill to confirm a Provisional Order under The Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to the Caledonian Railway, ordered to be brought in by The Lord Advocate and Mr. Solicitor-General for Scotland.
Caledonian Railway Order Confirmation Bill. "To confirm a Provisional Order under The Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to the Caledonian Railway," presented, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Tuesday 9th June, and to be printed. (Bill 228.)
Forth Navigation Order Confirmation. Bill to confirm a Provisional Order under The Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to the Forth Navigation, ordered to be brought in by The Lord Advocate and Mr. Solicitor-General for Scotland.
Forth Navigation Order Confirmation Bill. "To confirm a Provisional Order under The Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to the Forth Navigation," presented; and ordered to be considered upon Monday, 8th June.
Thames Conservancy Bill. Order (24th February) for Second Reading read, and discharged. Bill withdrawn.
Patent Office Extension Bill. Ordered, That the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills do examine the Patent Office Extension Bill with respect to compliance with the Standing Orders relative to Private Bills.—(Mr. Arthur Elliot.)
Merthyr Tydvil Urban District Council Bill. Reported from the Police and Sanitary Committee, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
All Saints, Poplar (Rate Abolition) Bill [Lords]. Reported, without Amendment; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. Bill to be read the third time.
Western Valleys (Monmouthshire) Sewerage Board Bill. Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

PETITIONS.
  CANADIAN CATTLE (IMPORTATION).
  Petition from Harwich, for the abolition of restrictions; to lie upon the Table.
  EMIGRATION LODGING HOUSES, LIVERPOOL.
  Petition from Liverpool, for the abatement of alleged nuisance; to lie upon the Table.
  LICENSING LAW (COMPENSATION FOR NON-RENEWAL) BILL.
  Petitions against: from Cheetham Hill; East Anglia; and, Rochdale; to lie upon the Table.
  LICENSING LAW (COMPENSATION FOR NON - RENEWAL) BILL, AND LICENCES RENEWAL AND TRANSFER BILL.
  Two Petitions from Patricroft, against; to lie upon the Table.
  LICENCES RENEWAL AND TRANSFER BILL.
  Petition against: from Cheetham Hill; East Anglia; and, Rochdale; to lie upon the Table.
  PORT OF LONDON BILL.
  Petitions against (praying to be heard by Counsel): from Freemen and Apprentices of the River Thames; the Amalgamated Society of Watermen, Lightermen, and Watchmen of the River Thames, and the Society of Foremen Lightermen of the River Thames; Corporation of Queenborough; Great Western Railway Company; Henry Chaloner Smith; Regent's Canal and Dock Company; Great Northern Railway Company; Lee Conservancy Board; and, the Conservators of the River Thames; referred to the Select Committee on the Bill.
  PREVENTION OF CORRUPTION BILL.
  Petitions in favour: from Maidenhead; Rugby; Brymbo; and, Loch winnoch; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS REPORTS, ETC.
  SUEZ CANAL (COMMERCIAL, No. 4, 1903).
  Copy presented, of Returns of Shipping and Tonnage, 1900, 1901, and 1902 (in continuation of "Commercial, No. 2, 1902") [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND).
  Copy presented, of Minute of the Committee of Council on Education in Scotland, dated 28th May, 1903, providing for the distribution of the General Aid Grant (with Explanatory Memorandum) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  LOCAL AUTHORITIES (ACQUISITION OF LAND).
  Return presented, relative thereto (ordered 8th July, 1902.—Sir Walter Foster); to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. (No. 182.)
  BRITISH SOUTH AFRICAN (TAXATION OF NATIVES).
  Return presented, relative thereto (Address 24th February.—Mr. Herbert Samuel); to lie upon the Table.
  IRISH LAND BILL.
  Return ordered, "showing particulars with respect to advances for purchase of holdings and repayments to Land Commission under Clauses 1 and 40."—(Mr. Wyndham.) Return presented accordingly; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. (No. 183.)
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Fenton Urban District's Education Scheme.
  MR. TALBOT: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether his attention has been called to the fact that the scheme of the Fenton Urban District Education Committee contains a provision that no clergyman or minister of any denomination is eligible for election on the Committee to be appointed; and, if so, whether he will withhold his sanction from this portion of the scheme.
  (Answered by Sir William Anson.) The scheme for the appointment of the Education Committee of the Fenton Urban District Council makes full provision for the representation of the various kinds of education in the district, and provides, amongst other

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  things, for the appointment of members on the recommendation of associations of Church of England schools and Roman Catholic schools, and of the Free Church Council. These bodies must be represented by persons other than clergymen or ministers, and the Board considered that as due representation of these kinds of schools was assured, the Council might claim a discretion as to the presence of clergymen or ministers on its Committee.

  Haverhill and District School Board.
  MR. J. A. PEASE: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Education if he will state what will be the functions of the Haverhill and District School Board between 1st July, the appointed day upon which the West Suffolk County Council assume control over the provided schools in its area, and 1st October, the appointed day upon which the Essex County Council assume control over the provided schools in its area. During the above period whose duty will it be to look after the education of the children residing in one county and hitherto in attendance at an elementary school in the other; who will remunerate the attendance officer and whose servant will he be, and how will his remuneration be apportioned; how will the debts on the buildings and joint costs in connection therewith be apportioned between schools erected in the two counties. How and when is the balance standing to the credit of the Haverhill and District School Board to be apportioned; with a balance in hand by the School Board sufficient to carry on the schools within its area to 1st October, can the West Suffolk County Council issue a precept for the area already provided for; if so, what becomes of the share of the credit-balance paid by the ratepayers in the Suffolk portion of the School Board area.
  (Answered by Sir William Anson.) Between the 1st July and the 1st October, the School Board will continue to carry out its ordinary functions in the portion of its district which lies within the County of Essex. During this period the West Suffolk education authority will be responsible for the attendance at
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  school of all children residing within their portion of the School Board district, irrespective of what school they are attending; and the School Board will be under a similar obligation in respect of the remainder of the district. Each body will be responsible for providing and paying for their own attendance officer. The apportionment of any debts or balances will be a matter for agreement between the West Suffolk and the Essex education authorities under Section 68 of the Local Government Act of 1894. The West Suffolk County Council have power to raise a rate over the whole of their area. After the balance has been apportioned the share of the Suffolk portion of the district will be placed to the credit of that district.

  The Admiralty and Devonport Brewster Sessions.
  SIR THOMAS DEWAR: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that the captain of the Naval Barracks, Devonport, attended with about thirty men in uniform the brewster sessions, recently held, to oppose the renewal of licences; and, if so, will he say whether his action was sanctioned by the Admiralty authorities.
  (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster.) At the recent brewster sessions at Devonport the renewal of certain licences was opposed on behalf of the Admiralty, and the captain of the Naval Depot attended as a witness. His action in doing so has the full approval of the Admiralty. There is no foundation for the statement that he was accompanied by a number of men in uniform.

  Ophthalmia at Hanwell Poor Law Schools.
  MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that an outbreak of ophthalmia at the Hanwell Poor Law Schools has affected 230 children between 4th April and 16th May of this year; whether he has any official Reports showing that this outbreak has been due to the premature return of partially cured children from the ophthalmic school to the main school; and, if so, will he state what steps are being taken in the matter.
  (Answered, by Mr. Walter Long.) I am aware of the outbreak which has recently occurred at the schools referred to. The managers obtained the services of Dr. Sydney Stephenson, and I have seen a Report by him on the subject. It appears that the outbreak was a mild form of conjunctivitis or blight. This is an ailment which is very prevalent among children and which readily yields to suitable treatment. I am not aware of any Report to show that the outbreak was due to the cause referred to in the Question. Indeed the evidence indicates that the infection was introduced into the schools by a child recently admitted from Southwark. I am informed that the managers re-opened a portion of the former ophthalmic school for the reception of the children affected, and I understand that the action which they have taken on the advice of Dr. Stephenson is being attended with success. Only sixty of the children now remain isolated and under treatment.

  Epidemics at Hanwell Poor Law Schools.
  MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: To ask the President of the Local Government Board during how many weeks in the past twelve months there have been epidemics of illness in the Hanwell Poor Law Schools.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) It appears from a Return which I have received from the clerk to the managers that during the year ended Saturday last there have been three slight epidemics of illness at these schools. Thus, there were fifty-nine cases of influenza during nine weeks, forty-three cases of chicken pox during twelve weeks, and twenty-six cases of whooping cough during ten weeks. The total number of cases of all other diseases for the year is nine. During thirteen weeks there was no case of disease in the schools. I am informed that there have been no deaths there since June, 1901. This reply does not take account of the mild attack of "blight" which has recently occurred in the schools.

  Poor Law Nurses.
  MR. TALBOT: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he has taken into consideration the Report of the Departmental Committee on
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  Poor Law Nursing, dated 10th November, 1902; and whether it is still his intention to recommend the training of a class of qualified nurses in the smaller workhouses.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) I can only state at present that the Report referred to is under my consideration.

  Calf Lymph for Scotland.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the President of the Local Government Board, in view of the fact that the Local Government Board for Scotland paid to Dr. Blaxall, of the Government Bacteriological Laboratory in London, £105 for 2,220 tubes of glycerinated calf lymph during the year ending 31st March last, will he state whether this lymph was produced at the cost of the Local Government Board.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) The lymph referred to was prepared front calves in the stables of the Local Government Board and was uniform with other lymph issued by them, but the cost of its production and preparation was borne by Dr. Blaxall. I should add that Dr. Blaxall is not required to devote his whole time to his services to my Department.

  Post Office Pensions—Case of William. Sample.
  MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that William Sample, of Redcar, Yorks, entered the postal service on 15th February 1871, obtained a Civil Service certificate on 15 May 1871, and worked continuously until 22nd April 1902, but has been pensioned on a basis of seventeen years' service instead of the thirty-one years actually performed; and whether the Treasury will reconsider this case.
  (Answered by Mr. Arthur Elliot.) William Sample obtained a Civil Service certificate in 1871, by which he became qualified for the post of an established rural postman. He declined, however, to accept that appointment, and preferred to serve until 1885 in a capacity in respect of which pension cannot lawfully

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  be granted. I can hold out no hope that the Treasury will reconsider his case.

  Pay of Royal Army Medical Corps in India.
  DR. THOMPSON: To ask the Secretary of State for India if he will explain why certain increases of pay and charge pay, granted by Royal Warrant of 26th March 1902, to officers of the Royal Army Medical Corps, and drawn all over the world since that date, are still withheld in India.
  (Answered by Secretary Lord George Hamilton.) The Royal Warrant of 24th March 1902 amended certain articles of the Pay Warrant and was therefore subject to the last clause in the preamble of the Pay Warrant which declares that it is not in force in the Indian Empire. The question of the pay of the Royal Army Medical Corps in India has, however, been under consideration; and revised rates, giving a substantial increase to the ranks of lieutenant, captain, and lieutenant-colonel, have been sanctioned with effect from 24th November 1902.
  DR. THOMPSON: To ask the Secretary of State for India if he is aware that certain officers of the Royal Army Medical Corps serving in India are receiving less pay than if they were at home; and, if so, whether he will, with a view to promoting contentment amongst the officers of this corps, assimilate the pay of these officers in India and at home.
  (Answered by Secretary Lord George Hamilton.) The Secretary of State has been in correspondence with the Government of India in regard to the rates of pay of officers of the Royal Army Medical Corps serving in India, and a revised scale has been sanctioned to have effect from 24th November 1902. The rates of pay under this new scale, when converted into British currency, are superior to the rates recently laid down for the Royal Army Medical Corps at home, except in the case of officers holding brevet rank. It is not in accordance with the general practice of the Government of India to grant higher pay to an officer holding rank of this description.

  Deposition of the Maharajah of Panna.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether he is now prepared to lay upon the Table of the House Papers relative to the deposition of the Maharajah of Panna.
  (Answered by Secretary Lord George Hamilton.) No, Sir.

  Cases of Plague in India amongst persons employed on Relief Works.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for India if he will state the number of persons employed on relief works in India since the 1st January last; how many of these persons have died of plague; and how many have been inoculated with plague serum.
  (Answered by Secretary Lord George Hamilton.) The number of persons employed on relief works in India at the end of each month of the present year was—January, 23,227; February, 26,414; March, 40,364; April, 46,793. The number of deaths from plague among the relief workers is not known, but as relief works are confined to the Raipur District in the Central Provinces, which district has so far been free from plague, it may be presumed that no deaths were due to that disease, and that protective inoculation was not offered to the relief workers.

  Birching of Youthful Offenders.
  MR. KEIR HARDIE: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether a magistrate has power to order a constable to inflict or witness any birching order not carried out under any legal sentence, or to direct a birching, not under a legal sentence, to be carried out within the precincts of the court; and will he say whether the rods for such unofficial birchings are supplied at the public expense, and whe her any fee is paid and, if so, from what source to the person who inflicts the punishment.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Alters-Douglas.) I do not think I can add anything of substance to the Answer which I gave the hon. Member on the

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  26th March last,† unless he desired to draw my attention to some particular case into which inquiry ought to be made. I can only say that birchings such as those to which I understand the hon. Member to refer are not carried out in pursuance of any order of a magistrate, though no doubt sometimes at his suggestion. They are matters of arrangement between the parent and the person who inflicts the punishment, and I have no cognisance of the details of any such arrangement.

  Canal Tolls in Ireland.
  MR. KENNEDY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction will consider the advisability of exercising its powers under Section 17 of the Agriculture and Technical Instruction (Ireland) Act, 1899, of appearing before the Railway and Canal Commissioners on behalf of the boatowners on the Royal Canal who feel aggrieved by reason of the tolls charged by the Midland Great Western Railway on canal traffic, when added to the working expenses, being in excess of the freight charged on that company's railway for the same class of goods, thereby destroying the competition of the canal; and whether seeing that, while the directors of the railway company have reduced their freight for coal by about 6d. per ton from Dublin to Mullingar, the reduction in canal tolls which they offer the boatowners amounts to only about 1d. per ton, he will say whether he can take any and, if so, what action in the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The Midland Great Western Railway Company, on the 30th ultimo, forwarded to the Department a list of reduced tolls for the conveyance of coal by canal from Dublin to Mullingar which they proposed to charge as from 1st May. If the boatowners are aggrieved by the tolls as now revised the Department will be happy to consider any further representations which they may desire to make on the subject.
  † See (4) Debates, cxx., 297.

  Monaghan Infirmary.
  DR. THOMPSON: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state why the Local Government Board have refused to permit the governors of the County Monaghan Infirmary to see the Report of the Local Government Board inspector relative to the condition of their hospital and its suitability as a training school for nurses.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) No application has been made by the governors of the infirmary for permission to see the Report in question. In any event such reports are confidential documents intended for the information of the Local Government Board, and it would be contrary to the invariable practice to make them public.

  Sanatoria for Consumptives in Ireland.
  DR. THOMPSON: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state what steps have been taken by the County Councils to establish a sanatorium for consumptive patients in each Irish county.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) So far as the Local Government Board is aware no definite action has yet been taken by any County Council to establish a sanatorium for consumptive patients. Some preliminary steps to this end have been taken by the Belfast Corporation, and the Cork Branch of the Association for the Prevention of Tuberculosis are urging upon the local authorities the necessity for taking action in the matter.

  Drum (County Monaghan) Water Supply.
  DR. THOMPSON: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will explain why the Local Government Board refuse to allow the village of Drum, county Monaghan, to obtain a supply of pure drinking water.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The Board has not refused to allow this village to obtain a pure water supply. On the contrary it has frequently urged upon the District Council the necessity of taking steps in this direction.

  Irish Medical Officers of Health.
  DR. THOMPSON: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state what steps have been taken by the County Councils to appoint a medical officer of health for each county; and if he will direct the Local Government Board to impress on the County Councils the vital necessity of the appointment of such an official.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) County Councils, not being sanitary authorities, have no power to appoint medical officers of health for their respective counties.

  Action against the Donegal Board of Guardians.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state the amount of the verdict and costs obtained by a contractor named Diver against the Donegal Board of Guardians in March 1902; and, in view of the fact that the guardians were advised that there was no defence, will he explain why the Local Government Board auditor insisted on the guardians proceeding with litigation; and whether, in view of the document issued by the clerk of the union for signature for the purpose of trying to raise a loan to meet these costs, will he state what steps he proposes to take in the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The contractor obtained a verdict for £43 6s. in respect of extra work unauthorised by the guardians, but certified by the architect. I have no information as regards the costs. I am not aware that the guardians were advised there was no defence. The auditor denies that he insisted on the guardians proceeding with litigation. The Local Government Board have sanctioned a supplemental loan of £400 for the purpose, amongst other things, of paying law costs.

  Clerks in the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, whether, in view of the fact that the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction have in their service
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  clerks whose periods of employment as such under the Crown range from nine to eleven years and whose salaries are considerably under £100 per annum, he will state the maximum rate of salary these clerks can receive, when they will reach it in the ordinary course, and how long approximately they will then have spent in the employment of the Crown; whether the salaries of all or any of these gentlemen have been reduced since entering the Department's service, and whether such reductions were due to misconduct or ineptitude. And, whether, in view of the fact that clerical positions, which would have afforded opportunity for promotion for these gentlemen, have been bestowed on persons of less official experience, will he state how many of the temporary clerical staff of the Department have salaries of £100 per annum and upwards, and how long have such persons been continuously in the employment of the Crown, and whether the Department intend to take steps to place both classes of clerks on the same footing.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) In reply to the first paragraph. The number of such clerks is three. Before their appointment they were employed in a temporary capacity only. Their services were determinable at a week's notice, and they had no prospects of advancement. Their present appointments carry valuable privileges, including pension rights. Their salaries rise by annual increments of £2 10s. to £120, and thenceforth by £5 to £150. In two cases the initial salary was at the rate of £90 per annum as compared with £91 5s. when they were temporarily employed. The number of clerks referred to in the second paragraph is two. One had eight years' continuous service under the Crown. They are in the same position in respect to increments and maximum of salary as other clerks of the same class employed in the Civil Service.

  Granard Rural District Councils' Printing Contracts — County Meath List of Voters—Cost of Printing.
  MR. TULLY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, whether the Local Government Board can state the amount paid

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  for printing and advertising for the year ended 31st March last by the Granard No. 1, No. 2, and No. 3 Rural District Councils respectively; when were the contracts taken for this work, and who were declared contractors; and whether contracts have been made for the execution of this work for the current year; and, if so, when, and what are the amounts of same.
  MR. TULLY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, whether the Local Government Board can state the amount paid each year for the last three years by the Meath County Council for the printing of the List of Voters for the County Meath; and who was the contractor for the execution of this work.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) It has not been found possible to obtain the information desired in these Questions in time to enable replies to be given to-day. Perhaps the hon. Member will repeat them at a future date.

  Sale of the Allen Estate.
  MR. TULLY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Land Commission are aware that in the case of the sale of the Allen Estate, near Carrick-on-Shannon, in the year 1881, two sub-tenants, named Peter Keogh and James Costello, to an occupier named Pat Costello, were duly declared purchasers of the respective portions of land in their possession, and that the consent of Pat Costello was duly lodged with the solicitors having carriage of sale, Messrs. E. L. Hunt and Son, 32, George's Street, Limerick; and, if so, whether the Land Commission can explain on what grounds these men have not been duly registered as owners of the farms which they bought under these circumstances.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The proceedings for sale in the estate referred to cannot be identified on the records of the Land Commission.

  Fair Bents on Colonel French's Estate.
  MR. TULLY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Land Commission have made
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  any investigation into the complaint from Mr. Thomas M. Killoran, Ballymote, that an appeal was heard by them against the fair rent fixed by the Sub-Commissioners on 19th June, 1900, on a holding on the estate of Colonel French which he purchased from Mrs. Kate Shaw, formerly Roddy, although no notice of appeal was served on Mr. Killoran or Mrs. Shaw; and, if so, will he say with what result.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) This Question has been referred to the Judicial Commissioner for report, but I regret that a reply cannot be given to it to-day.

  Irish Land Acts—Terms of Repayment.
  SIR JOHN COLOMB: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the normal term of repayment under Section 25 of the Irish Land Act, 1896, is seventy-two and a half years or forty-two and a half years; and whether he can state in how many cases up to and ending 31st March last have tenant purchasers intimated that they will repay on the forty two and a half years system; in how many cases have they intimated that with decadal reductions they will pay on the seventy-two and a half years system; and further down to the same date in how many cases have tenant purchasers under the Acts of 1885, 1888, and 1891 exercised the option, given to them under Section 25 of the Act of 1896, and converted their periods of repayment from forty-nine years to seventy-nine years so as to secure decadal reductions.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The main provisions of Section 25 are prospective, as well as retrospective, and in effect every land purchase annuity at the end of the decade is reduced unless, in accordance with Sub-section (3), the proprietor of a holding applies that the annuity shall not be reduced for the coming decade. If he so applies the annuity is not reduced and then the normal term of repayment, in cases of annuities created since the Act of 1896, is forty-two and a half years. The effect of each of the three decade applications is to extend the term from forty-two and a half years to seventy-two and a half years. Eight hundred and ninety-seven purchasers under the Acts of 1891–1896 became

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  entitled to the decade revision up to 1st May, 1903, and of these nineteen objected to have their annuities varied. Under the Acts of 1885–1888, 22,247 purchasers became similiarly entitled to the decade revision, and of these 1,011 objected to the revision. In cases under the Acts of 1885–1888 the result of the application of the decade system is to extend the term from forty-nine to seventy-nine years, provided the reduction is made at the end of each of the three decades.

  Mullingar Rifle Range.
  MR. KENNEDY: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that owing to the new rifle range at Mullingar not being ready for practice, the 1st Battalion Connaught Rangers stationed at that town have been ordered away for three or four months practice; and, if so, whether, in the interests of the locality, he will take steps to secure the opening of the new rifle range at an early date.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The purchase of the land required for the Mullingar rifle range has not yet been completed, and, as the hon. Member has been previously informed, it is not possible to commence the construction of the range until the land is in possession of the War Department.

  Sleeping Accommodation in Military Guard Rooms.
  MR. COLSTON: To ask the Secretary of State for War if any improvement has yet been effected in the sleeping accommodation provided in military guard rooms.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) Difficulty has been experienced in obtaining a satisfactory mattress for the guard rooms, and some new mattresses are now on trial.

  Limits of Army Order 9, of January, 1903.
  MR. JOHN HUTTON: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will ascertain from the Indian Government their reasons for recommending that the Army Order, No. 9, of January, 1903, should be limited to troops engaged in the operations previous to 3rd March 1893; and
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  whether they have any reasons for not extending the date so as to include the Sima Relief Column, under Captain Davis, D.S.O., which started from Bhamo in April, 1893, and which was the last expedition that season; whether he can explain why the Army Order, No. 9, of January, 1903, conferring medals upon troops engaged in 1893, has been so long delayed.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) I think it would be most convenient if the hon. Member would kindly address his inquiries direct to the Indian Government.

  Tenders for Cordite Cartridges.
  MR. EVELYN CECIL: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the fact that tenders for a quantity of ·303 cordite cartridges were sent in by the contractors so far back as 18th April, and that no replies to those tenders have been received, and that in consequence of this delay thousands of workpeople have been thrown out of employment, he can hasten the placing of these orders.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The quantity required is very small in comparison with the orders given during the war, and in any case I feel a large discharge of workmen by contractors is unavoidable. The allotment will be made at once.

  Rifle Clubs in Ireland.
  MR. O'SHEE: To ask the Secretary of State for War if he will say how many rifle clubs affiliated to the National Rifle Association exist in Ireland, and what is their total membership; and do the same regulations as to the authorisation and formation of rifle clubs apply to Ireland as to Great Britain.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) There are eight rifle clubs in Ireland affiliated to the National Rifle Association, and the total number of members is 366. The regulations as to authorisation and formation are the same as those in Great Britain, with the exception that the approval of the Irish Government is necessary.

  Military Ranges in Ireland.
  MR. O'SHEE: To ask the Secretary of State for War if he will say what is the number of military ranges in Ireland; have any ranges been abandoned since 1899, and have any new ranges been acquired and constructed; how many Irish ranges on which iron targets were heretofore used have, since 1899, had paper or canvas targets substituted; is it proposed to make the same alteration in all the ranges; and whether it has been decided to abandon any of the ranges now in use.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The number of military ranges in Ireland is twenty-nine. Three have been abandoned since 1899, two have been acquired and constructed, and several others enlarged and improved. On seven ranges paper or canvas targets have been substituted for iron, and it is proposed to make this alteration in all the ranges. It has not been decided to abandon any of the ranges now in use.

  Inoculation for Plague in Hong Kong.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the system of inoculation with plague serum which is in force in India has been adopted in Hong Kong; and, if not, will he consider the expediency of calling for a report on the subject.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Chamberlain.) The hon. Member will see from Dr. Simpson's report, which has just been placed in the Library of the House, that the inoculation of those who wish to be protected with Haffkine's Plague Prophylactic is already carried on in Hong Kong, and that Dr. Simpson recommends the continuance of this practice.

  Chinese Labour for South African Mines.
  MR. KEIR HARDIE: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the mine owners of South Africa claim to be acting with the approval and support of Lord Milner in attempting to introduce Chinese labour for work in the mines; and, if so, whether he will direct the attention of Lord Milner to the fact that
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  the Government is opposed to such labour being introduced.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Chamberlain.) No, Sir; I am not aware that any such claim has been made, and Lord Milner is in full possession of the views of His Majesty's Government, which have been publicly stated on several occasions.

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  Ragging in the 21st Lancers.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is in a position to give any information to the House in reference to the ill-treatment of an officer of the 21st Lancers.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. BRODRICK,): A Report on this subject has been received from the Field Marshal Commanding the 3rd Army Corps, and the Commander-in-Chief will shortly give his decision. Perhaps the hon. Member would postpone his Question till Monday week.

  Typewriting Telegraph Instruments for Army Field Service.
  MR. JOHN CAMPBELL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the War Office has made any tests as to the capabilities of the typewriting telegraph instruments, employed in the field services of Germany, Austria, and the United States; and, if so, with what result.
  MR. BRODRICK: We have no information to show that typewriting telegraph instruments are used in field service by either Germany, Austria or the United States. An instrument of this nature has been tested by the War Office but the report on it is unfavourable.

  Disease Infected Army Blankets.
  DR. FARQUHARSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the scientific questions raised by the recent

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  outbreak of fever on the "Cornwall," attributed to the use of infected blankets, he will cause an inquiry into the matter to be conducted either by officers of the Royal Army Medical Corps or in conjunction with the medical staff of the Local Government Board.
  MR. BRODRICK: I shall not be in a position to reply to any further Questions on the subject of these blankets until I am in possession of the Report from General Officer Commanding in South Africa which has been called for.

  South Australian Government and Foreign Governments.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the South Australian Government have agreed to the view stated in his recent despatch that on matters relating to Foreign Governments His Majesty's Government should deal with the Government of the Commonwealth, and not with the State Governments.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN,): I have no information. There has not yet been time to receive a reply to my despatch of the 15th of April included in the Papers recently published.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: This day fortnight.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: We have to await a reply by mail.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Then this day month.

  Mediterranean Fleet—Gunnery Practice.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty has he now received the Report, called for by the Admiralty on 11th May, on the alleged waste of ammunition in the Mediterranean Fleet on 29th April last by eight battleships firing away over 7,000 rounds at distances and under conditions depriving the practice of utility as gunnery training; for accuracy in marksmanship; what
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  was the range at which the practice was conducted, the time it took, and the number and approximate value of the rounds fired. In what respects did this practice depart from the Admiralty regulation that the attainment of good shooting and proficiency in gunnery are always to be considered as taking precedence overall other duties; by whom was this practice ordered and its conditions prescribed, and by whom has the Report thereon been made. In view of the practice which had been adopted on 14th May last that the reasons of failure in gunnery practice are reported on by the admirals under whose orders the ships are acting, that the Reports are considered by the Admiralty, and such steps taken with regard to the individual officers concerned as in the opinion of the Admiralty are required, will he say whether any, and, if so, what steps have, been, or will be taken, in this case.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. ARNOLD-FORSTER,): I gave the hon. Member an undertaking that I would inform him as soon as the Report on this subject was received. That undertaking I will not fail to carry out, but I believe that Sunday next is the earliest date at which it will be possible to receive the Report of the Commander-in-Chief from Alexandria.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I will postpone the Question till June 9. It was not want of confidence in the hon. Gentleman's undertaking that induced me to put it to-day.

  Preferential Trading with British Colonies.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has received by telegraph the exact words of the reference to preferential trading in the speech of the Governor-General of Australia on the opening of the Commonwealth Parliament; and, if so, whether he can communicate them to Parliament.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir but I have telegraphed to ask for them.

  Sangramgar Murder Case.
  MR. SCHWANN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been drawn to the trial and composition of the jury in what is known as the Sangramgar murder case, in which one Martin was accused of the murder of Bistu Bowri, when twelve special jurors were summoned, six Europeans and six Indians, from whom five jurors were to be chosen, and that of the six Indians five were rejected except one, who with four Europeans from the panel, tried and acquitted the accused; and, if so, will the action of the district judge in summoning a jury half of Europeans and half of Indians and in allowing the actual jury to consist of four Europeans and one Indian be inquired into, as well as the evidence of the alleged partiality of two or three of the jurors as shown on the jury being struck and during the trial, especially with reference to Mr. M'Nicoll and Mr. Davies.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Lord GEORGE HAMILTON,): I have no information as to the case referred to in the question. If any irregularity occurred in the trial it was open to the Local Government to apply to the High Court to deal with the proceedings in exercise of their power of revision. But, as regards the constitution of the jury, I may remind the hon. Member that, under Section 450 of the Criminal Procedure Code, if any European British subject requires to be tried by a mixed jury, "the trial should be by a jury of which not less than half of the number shall be Europeans."

  Indian Railways.
  MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he can state when the Report of Mr. Robertson, the specialist employed by the Government of India for the purpose of examining the Indian Railway systems, will be issued; and whether he is now in a position to give to the House its main recommendations.
  LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: Mr. Robertson's Report has been printed and published in India, and I am expecting
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  shortly to receive a large number of copies for issue in this country. In the meantime I do not propose to make any statement as to the nature of the recommendations which it contains.

  Germany and Canadian Trade.
  MR. BLACK: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Germany stands alone in differentiating or threatening to differentiate against Canada in consequence of the recent preference given to British trade.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Lord CRANBORNE,): So far as we are aware the answer is in the negative.

  Clapham Common—Private Employment of Constables.
  MR. SCHWANN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that inhabitants resident on and near Clapham Common subscribe for one or two additional constables owing to the general insecurity of property in that neighbourhood owing to frequent burglaries; and that, in some gardens connected with various squares in London, private policemen are paid for by the adjacent occupiers in addition to their ordinary rates for police protection; and, if so, will he reconsider the decision of a late Chief Constable of the Metropolitan Police not to protect the backs of houses which abut on gardens, usually locked by gates at night, although easily scaled.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. AKERS-DOUGLAS,): There are a considerable number of cases (particulars of which will be found in the Commissioners' Annual Report) in which additional constables are appointed at the cost of private persons under Section 8 of the Metropolitan Police Act, 1839. One such constable is employed in the neighbourhood of Clapham Common; but I am not aware that there is general insecurity of property there. As regards the latter part of the Question, a police regulation has long been in force forbidding

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  constables to leave their beats to enter or patrol private grounds except when they have reason to believe that an offence is being, or is likely to be, committed; and in the opinion of the Commissioner it is necessary in the public interest that this regulation should be maintained.

  Treatment of Habitual Criminals.
  MR. SCHWANN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the cases which the Recorder of Manchester tried at the City Assizes there on Tuesday the 26th instant: of William Whitby, who was found to have been convicted of stealing eleven times since 1898; of James Wright, described as a confirmed pickpocket; and of Ann Smith, who stole a purse, and had been eighteen times convicted of different, offences; and if so, will he say when he will be able to introduce his Bill for the segregation of habitual and irreclaimable criminals.
  MR. AKERS DOUGLAS: The hon. Member has been good enough to send me reports of the cases referred to, and I can only say that many of a similar character come before me from day to day. I am most anxious to do something in the direction indicated, and have proposals under immediate consideration; but I can make no promise as to the date at which I may be able to bring in a Bill.

  Crime in the Metropolis.
  MR. SCHWANN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will state what robberies and burglaries have been reported by the police as having taken place in Eaton Square and Chester Square since the 1st January, 1902; and whether, seeing that within a recent period sixteen robberies of a burglarious character were made in the neighbourhood of Dollis Hill, Willesden, he will state what steps he proposes to take.
  MR. AKERS DOUGLAS: Since 1st January, 1902, there has been one burglary and two housebreakings in Eaton Square and Chester Square, and in
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  two of these cases arrests were made. There have been no recent cases of burglary at Dollis Hill, but no doubt the hon. Member's figure is right if he includes not only cases of housebreaking but also minor cases of larceny from outhouses within an area of four square miles. The Commissioner of Police has constantly under his consideration the needs of the various districts of the Metropolis, and augments the police from time to time as necessity arises.

  Gambling in Grain Futures.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: On behalf of the hon. Member for the St. Patrick's Division of Dublin I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he has yet received copies of the legislation passed by Foreign Governments and by the Canadian Government it regard to the regulation of gambling in futures or options in food stuffs; and, if so, whether he can lay those Parliamentary Papers before the House; and, if not, whether he can say when he expects to be able to do so.
  *THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OK TRADE (Mr. BONAK LAW,): I have received Reports from His Majesty's representatives in the various foreign countries and from Canada, bearing upon the matter referred to by the hon. Member, and propose to lay them upon the Table very shortly, as soon as they have been printed and summarised.

  Telegraphic Delays—Message Timing.
  MR. JOHN CAMPBELL: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been called to complaints that telegraph clerks fill up the forms so as to make the time of handing in later than it really was; and, if so, whether he will consider the advisability of providing on the forms for public use a space in which the sender can insert the time according to the office clock at which the message was handed in.
  THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN,): It is but very rarely that telegraphists are alleged to have misstated the time of "handing in" a telegram, and I am not prepared to accept the

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  suggestion of the hon. Member that I should accept an entry of time made by the sender of the telegram, and purporting to be taken from the office clock.
  MR. JOHN CAMPBELL: I can give instances in my own experience where the message has been delayed half an hour?
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: If the hon. Member will bring any such case to my notice I will inquire, but unless it is done immediately it is very difficult to arrive at any satisfactory result.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: But cannot some arrangement be made for the clerk to put on the message the hour at which it is received?
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: That is done. The number of complaints of this kind is very small. The whole object of the regulation is to get the work at the counter done as quickly as possible, so as not to incommode the public.

  Silent Telephone Cabinets for the Post Office.
  MR. JOHN CAMPBELL: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the fact that a recent contract for 150 silent telephone cabinets was given to Maple and Co., in preference to the old sub-contractors, he will give the figures of the various tenders, and state how many of the Maple cabinets have been delivered, and how many of them accepted, and how many rejected; and will he also state, in the case of a contract for 300 telephone boards given to the same firm, how many of these instruments have been delivered, how many accepted, and how many rejected.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: The hon. Member is under some misapprehension. The contract recently made with Messrs. Maple and Co. was for fifty, not 150, Silence Cabinets, and cabinets such as these have in recent years been made, not by sub-contractors, but in the Post Office factory. All the firms who had ever made Silence Cabinets for the Post Office, and one or two firms who had made cabinets for the Office of Works, were invited to tender, and the tender of Messrs.
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  Maple and Co. was the lowest. I am not prepared to give the figures. The first cabinet, which was to be approved before the order was proceeded with, has been passed, and delivery of the whole is expected very shortly. The telephone boards mentioned by the hon. Member are not instruments, as he supposes, but merely little boards to hold the brackets on which a telephone rests. Two hundred and fifty, not 300, were ordered recently from Messrs. Maple and Co.; they have all been delivered, but it has been necessary to return them for a slight alteration. These boards also have previously been made in the Post Office factory.
  MR. JOHN CAMPBELL: May I ask how many of these cabinets have been returned "for a slight alteration?"
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I think all.

  Poor Rates Demand Notes.
  MR. HEYWOOD JOHNSTONE: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board if the General Order of the Board, of 21st September, 1895, prescribing the form of demand note for payment of Poor Rate is still in force; and if the amount to be levied in an administrative county for the purposes of the Education Act, 1902, should be included in county purposes, or should be separately indicated.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. WALTER LONG,): The Order of 1895 referred to has been superseded in the case of parishes containing agricultural land by an Order, dated 13th April, 1897; but, so far as relates to the point referred to in the Question, the provisions in the two Orders are the same. Both Orders prescribe as one item to be shown in the demand note the amount in the £ required for county contributions. The sum needed to meet the expenses of a County Council for the purchases of the Education Act, 1902, would form part of the county contributions, and the amount in the

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  £ required for this purpose should be included in this item. It should not be separately indicated in the demand note.
  MR. HEYWOOD JOHNSTONE: Then I take it the splitting of the rate in the demand note is not in accordance with the prescribed orders now in force.
  MR. WALTER LONG: Certainly.
  MR. WHITLEYasked whether it was not in the power of the local authority to give, on the demand note, not only the total of the rate, but the various sub-heads indicating how it was made up.
  MR. WALTER LONG: The demand mote is issued to the ratepayers by the overseers, and, as they have no knowledge of how the rate is made up, they cannot possibly indicate what proportion of the rate is to be devoted to a particular class of expenditure.

  Public Elementary Schools under Trust Deeds.
  MR. CUMMING MACDONA: On behalf of the hon. Member for the City of London (Sir Joseph Dimsdale), I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether, in the case of endowed schools, the trust deeds of which require them to be conducted as public elementary schools, the provisions of the London Education Bill as to appointment of managers and control by the local authority will apply if the governors of such schools elect not to accept a Parliamentary grant.
  THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Sir WILLIAM ANSON,): A school which, under the provisions of a scheme or trust deed, must be conducted as a public elementary school, must be subject to the provisions of the Act of 1902 as to the appointment of managers and the control of the local education authority. Whether a Parliamentary grant should be applied for or not rests with the local education authority and not with the managers. If the managers or governors refuse to accept from the local education authority
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  the cost of maintenance for their school, such refusal will not thereby divest the local education authority of its right of control over secular instruction.

  Free Education Dispute at Urmston.
  MR. SCHWANN: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether his attention has been drawn to the case of Mr. J. Wilshaw, of Urmston, Lancashire, who sent his child to the Church of England School in that town, but on asking the managers for tree education was refused; whether he is aware that, on Mr. Wilshaw appealing to the Board of Education to secure free education for his child, under the Act of 1891, he was informed that he could have a free place for his child at the Roman Catholic School in Urmston; that Mr. Wilshaw applied for the admittance of his child to the nearest Church of England School, and was refused because no fee was offered; and that Mr. Wilshaw then brought the matter before the Bishop of Manchester, and received an answer stating that Mr. Wilshaw, he was informed, did not need any help, and endorsing the action of the managers of the Church school; and, if so, will he state what action does the Board propose to take in the matter.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSON: The Urmston National School has a right to charge fees under Section 2 (2) of the Act of 1891; and the Board are not aware of anything in that Act which, while giving a parent the right to claim a free place for his child within a reasonable distance of his home, gives any right to claim such a free place at any particular school. It will be competent for the Lancashire County Council after the appointed day to consider the matter, if they so desire it. But I do not consider any action on the part of the Board to be necessary or desirable.

  Scottish Tax Collection.
  MR. CROMBIE: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that Imperial taxes in St. Andrews, Dunfermline, and other places in Scotland are collected in licensed premises; and, if so, whether he will put a stop to this practice.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. ELLIOT,): The facts are as stated in the Question. It may be difficult in some cases to obtain other accommodation, but I am in communication with the Inland Revenue on the subject.

  Promotion from the Armagh Post Office.
  MR. JOHN CAMPBELL: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that a junior officer has been withdrawn from Armagh Post Office for temporary duty in the Surveying Department without the posting up of the usual notice inviting applications from the district for the performance of the work; and, if so, will he explain why the ordinary course has been departed from in this instance.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Yes: the employment of the officer in question was duly authorised from headquarters. It was not necessary to post a notice inviting applications for this employment, as Mr. Boland was well known by the District Surveyor to be the most suitable candidate for the purpose.

  Irish Northern Postal District—Selections for Special Duties.
  MR. JOHN CAMPBELL: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he can state what system prevails in the Northern Postal District (Ireland) with reference to the selection of charge clerks for special duties; whether he is aware that one officer from Armagh has been selected on three different occasions within a limited period for duty at Donegal and Limavady; whether he can state how many charge clerks are listed in the Northern District, and if there was no competent officer to be found in Donegal or Derry.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: The system is to select the most suitable officer for the purpose who can be spared from his other duties. I am aware that one officer from Armagh has been selected on several occasions, but I am assured that in each case he was at the time the only suitable officer in the Northern District who could be spared. Twenty-two officers in the district are listed to
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  act as clerks in charge—three of whom are attached to the Staff at Londonderry. No officer on the Donegal Staff is on the List.

  Armagh Postal Staff—Extra Duties.
  MR. JOHN CAMPBELL: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the male staff at Armagh Post Office, owing to depletion, are obliged to perform extra work daily, in some cases from 2 a.m. to 10 p.m.; that in other cases the usual relief for dinner has been suspended; and that some men, after a week's work ending at 10.15 p.m. on Saturday night, are obliged to resume work again at 2 a.m. on Sunday morning; and, if so, whether he can take steps to secure to the staff nine hours' rest after the completion of their daily work.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir. No representations to this effect have reached me from the staff. If the facts are correctly stated in the Question the officers concerned should at once address a memorial to the Secretary, Dublin, or to me.

  Irish Mail Delays.
  MR. CULLINAN: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he is now in a position to state what steps, if any, have been taken to secure a more regular arrival of the Irish mails in Dublin; and whether he can give any assurance that the inconvenience caused by the missing of connections will not be repeated in future.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: The occasional late arrival of the English mails in Dublin is sometimes due to unavoidable causes, such as unfavourable weather or accidents on the railway, but sometimes it is caused by the heavy traffic. When the number of passengers for Ireland is larger than usual, it is frequently necessary to run the night mail train to Holyhead in two portions, and as the first portion can be started little, if at all, before the appointed time, the second portion must be late in arrival at Holyhead. The railway company have been urged to make arrangements for reducing to a minimum the delay thus caused, but it is feared that some delay is unavoidable. In regard to the failure

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  of connection in Ireland, I am considering whether any modification can advantageously be made in the arrangements for sending on the mails from Dublin to the South of Ireland; but I have not yet come to any decision in the matter.
  MR. CULLINAN: The London and North-Western Railway Company is receiving a huge subsidy for carrying mails, and it ought to be called upon to give better accommodation for passenger traffic.

  Newtownhamilton Mail Service.
  MR. JOHN CAMPBELL: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General, whether, seeing that the English mail does not arrive in Newtownhamilton, county Armagh, till about 5 p.m. he will consider some means of accelerating the service so that this mail may be delivered in the morning.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I regret that, as I informed the hon. Member in the letter which I addressed to him on the 13th instant, the circumstances do not enable me to accelerate the arrival of the English letters at Newtownhamilton.

  Union Amalgamation (Ireland) Commission.
  MR. CULLINAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, whether he will consider the advisability of including in the reference to the Commission on Amalgamation of Unions in Ireland the question of utilising some of the existing workhouses as educational and industrial training schools for orphans, and the children of habitual drunkards and criminals; as homes for unfortunate women with illegitimate children; and as asylums for harmless lunatic epileptics; and also the questions of the admission and treatment of tramps, with the object of devising a scheme which might generally be put in force to cope with the abuses of the existing law.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (MR. WYNDHAM,): The terms of reference are wide enough to enable the Commission to make recommendations for the better treatment of practically all these classes.
  MR. CULLINAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, whether, as the matters for investigation by the Commission on Amalgamation of Unions in Ireland will be varied and of concern to all parts of the country, he will consider the advisability of nominating a representative from the South to act on the Commission.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The Commission consists of three members, one of whom is the hon. Member for Mid Tyrone. It was considered that a small Commission of thoroughly competent and experienced gentlemen would better conduce to expedition and a workable scheme. It will invite the assistance of the most experienced local representatives throughout the country in the course of its investigations.
  MR. CULLINANasked whether as the administration of the Poor Law varied greatly in the South from the system obtaining in the North of Ireland, the right hon. Gentleman would give the South some representation on the Commission.
  MR WYNDHAM: I am aware that the practice differs in the South from the North, and the attention of the Commission will be drawn to the fact, but I cannot promise to enlarge the Commission. It is essential if the inquiry is to be carried out in an expeditious and business-like manner, to have a small compact body to conduct it, rather than to place on it representatives from all parts of Ireland.

  County Clare Police Force.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether there are any extra police remaining in the County Clare; whether any portions of that county remain proclaimed under the Criminal Law and Procedure (Ireland) Act, 1887; and whether the county is not in a perfectly peaceable state at present.
  MR. WYNDHAM: There are no extra police at present in Glare. Sections 3 and 4 of the Act of 1887 are in force in the county, and Section 2 is in force in

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  a small portion of the county. A considerable improvement has taken place in the state of the county.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of advising the Lord Lieutenant to revoke the Proclamation?
  MR. WYNDHAM: I entertain hopes that it may be possible to do so shortly, but I am not prepared to say it can be done at the present moment.

  County Clare Police and Mr. Patrick Meany.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will have orders sent to the Police in County Clare to cease following Mr. Patrick Meany, of Quin.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The movements of this man have been under police supervision because he was suspected of illegal practices. Latterly it has been found possible to relax the supervision.

  Hospital Relief for Irish Police.
  MR. MURPHY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Killarney Board of Guardians and others have complained that they are compelled to afford hospital relief to police constables in Ireland at the weekly average cost of all the patients; and whether, seeing that this sum is about 10s. per week less in each case than the actual cost, and having regard to the fact that these men are in receipt of full pay whilst in hospital, he will secure an amendment of the present regulations so that these policemen shall not remain a charge on the ratepayers.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Representations to this effect have been made by the Killarney and one or two other Boards of Guardians. The rate of payment by police constables in such circumstances is fixed by Statute, not by departmental regulation. I cannot undertake to introduce amending legislation in the direction suggested.

  Ballypooreen Prisoners.
  MR. CULLINAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that eleven men who were fined nominal sums, or in default three days imprisonment, at the Ballypooreen, County Tipperary, Petty Sessions, on the 5th instant, immediately offered to go to prison, but that the Resident Magistrate declined to issue warrants for their arrest for a week; and, if so, will he explain why those men are daily taken to prison in batches of two, handcuffed together, and treated as ordinary criminals, in view of the nature of the offence.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I am informed that the police had reasonable grounds for apprehending an attempted rescue or violence, and that it was considered necessary, in consequence, to take the precaution of handcuffing the prisoners.
  MR. LEAMY: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when any rescue of prisoners was last attempted in Ireland?
  [No answer was returned.]

  Brussels Sugar Convention—Provision for Expenses.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury out of what funds voted for the services of the Board of Trade or the Foreign Office do His Majesty's Government propose to provide for the expenditure to be incurred by this country, and which will come in course of payment during the current financial year, for the organisation and working of the Permanent Commission for carrying out the Brussels Sugar Convention, which is to meet not later than Monday next, 1st June.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): In answer to my hon. friend I have to say that such expenditure may properly be charged under subhead C., special services, of the Board of Trade, or subhead K., special missions and services,

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  and the Vote for diplomatic and consular services. Both these heads include provision for analagous contributions to the expenses of international commissions abroad. The question whether the Foreign Office or the Board of Trade should provide these charges has not yet been decided, but probably the charge will fall on the Foreign Office.

  Vote for Secret Service.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury have His Majesty's Government considered the propriety of reducing the Vote for Secret Service Money from £65,000 a year to a lower sum approaching that of £30,000, at which this Vote stood in, and for many years previous to 1898–9; is he aware that in the year 1901–02 only £48,316 was expended on Secret Service; and will he say what circumstances those are which are now held to require the vote of a larger sum than was required in that year.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The possibility of reduction was considered on the Estimates of the present year. I am aware of the amount actually expended in 1901–02, but I cannot undertake to state the reasons which were held to require a larger sum than was actually expended in that year, to be included in this year's estimate. I may add that I do not think it would be advisable on general grounds to reduce the amount of money spent on secret service in this country, which is very much smaller than that of other countries.

  Procedure Rules.
  MR. LODER: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he proposes to find time after Whitsuntide to resume the consideration of Amendments to Standing Orders relating to Procedure of the House, unfinished last session.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I should like to find time for finishing our work on these Standing Orders which, everybody will admit, are in an unsatisfactory condition, but I am afraid I cannot promise any particular date.

  Sittings of Parliament.
  MR. PAULTON: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the attention of His Majesty's Government has been drawn to the question of making such alteration in the date at which Parliament is usually summoned to meet as would conduce to bringing the session to an end early in July; and whether they will consider the advisability of appointing a Joint Committee of both Houses to deliberate and report upon the subject.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I beg at the same time to ask the first Lord of the Treasury whether, in view of the vote upon the subject in another place, it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to take steps to alter the time of year at which Parliament shall assemble for the transaction of business.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Personally I should be delighted if the session ended in July; and in order to obtain that desirable result, if it could be so obtained, I should personally not object to meeting earlier. But I am afraid, if this House decides to meet earlier, that when July comes round it will be found that we will still have to sit till 12th August, and the result of the change will be not a diminution of our labours, but an augmentation of them. For these reasons I look with some scepticism upon the plan which has been suggested by the House of Lords.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Will the right hon. Gentleman take some steps to remedy the painful situation of this House being at variance with the House of Lords?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: If the differences between the two Houses are never on more important points I do not think it is a matter which need trouble us.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  DR. FARQUHARSON: What will be the business on the Monday the House reassembles?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I propose to put down Revenue Votes 1, 2, 4, and 5, then the Civil Service, Class 4, Votes relating to museums, national galleries, Universities, and colleges, and also the Vote in Class 7 for miscellaneous temporary commissions. On Thursday, June 11, I hope—subject to possible alteration—to take the Local Government Board Vote.

  BISHOPRIC OF BRISTOL BILL [LORDS].
  Read the first time; to be read a second time upon Wednesday, 10th June, and to be printed. (Bill 229.)
  ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSIONERS BILL [LORDS].
  Read the first time; to be read a second time upon Wednesday, 10th June, and to be printed. (Bill 231.)
NEW BILL.
  MEDICAL ACT (1886) AMENDMENT (No. 2) BILL.
  "To amend The Medical Act, 1886," presented by General Laurie; supported by Sir Walter Foster, Sir John Tuke, Mr. Rothschild, Sir Howard Vincent, Mr. Middlemore, and Sir Mancherjee Bhownaggree; to be read a second time upon Monday, 8th June, and to be printed. (Bill 232.)

  THE SUGAR CONVENTION.
  THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. BONAR LAW,)in the absence of the President of the Board of Trade, presented a Bill to make provision for giving effect to a Convention, signed on March 5, 1902, in relation to sugar. He said: Hon. Members will remember that during last session a Resolution was passed by this House, authorising the Government to give effect to the Brussels Sugar Convention, and the object of this Bill is to carry out that Resolution. Under the terms of the Convention this country is bound either to prohibit the importation of bounty-fed sugar or to impose upon it a countervailing duty equivalent to the amount of the bounty. By this Bill
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  powers are taken only to prohibit, but not to countervail; and therefore in the future bounty-fed sugar will stand in exactly the same position as some other articles do now—such, for instance, as foreign prison-made goods, books which infringe our copyrights, or cattle which come from countries where there is disease. I do not think any advantage would be gained now by going in detail into the provisions of this Bill. They are short and are contained in two clauses, but I will refer to only three points. Powers are taken to demand proof of origin in regard to all sugar imported; in the next place, sugar-refining is to be carried on in bond; and, thirdly, the expenses of the permanent Commission are to be met out of moneys supplied by Parliament. No doubt the principles involved in the Bill will be fully discussed, but I doubt, if many new arguments will be introduced into the discussion. There is one consideration which lies at the very root of the whole matter. Last November the President of the Board of Trade quoted some words of Mr. Gladstone's, and I think they are worthy to be quoted again—
  "We do not regard with any satisfaction a system under which an artificial advantage is given in our markets to the products of foreign nations. Some people—"
  Hon. Gentlemen opposite are some of those people—
  "say it is a good thing, because the consumer gets the benefit; but I do not think that any benefit founded on inequality and injustice can bring good even to the consumer."
  I ask the House why is it that not only Mr. Gladstone but all the economists maintain that bounties are quite as bad for the country which receive as for the country which grant them? The reason is not difficult to find. The advantages of bounties, in the way of greater cheapness, are obvious; the disadvantages, though not less real, are not quite so obvious, and no one can tell how greatly a country suffers. I ask the House to consider the position of the sugar industry. If at the outset our markets had been closed to bounty-fed sugar, there is no reason to suppose that the consumption of

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  sugar would not have increased as it has increased now, and as the consumption of tea has increased. But if that consumption had increased under natural conditions it would have been met by increased supplies. What would this have meant to this country? Our machine shops would have turned out more material, our workmen would have been employed in producing the sugar machinery which would have been required, our manufacturers would have furnished more material, our workmen would have produced the immense supplies required, more ships would have been engaged in carrying supplies and our workmen would have been employed in building the ships which the great increase of trade would have necessitated. There has been a great increase of trade on account of the beetroot sugar industry, but that is a trade in which this country has almost had no share whatever. No one can doubt that the absence which this immense trade has made to our country represents a loss infinitely greater than any slight advantage which has been gained by the comparative cheapness of sugar. The object of the Bill is to turn the sugar industry again into its natural channel, and at the same time to prevent the complete destruction of what has been in the past and will be again one of the most important industries in the British Empire.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision for giving effect to a Convention signed on the fifth day of March, nineteen hundred and two, in relation to Sugar."—(Mr. Bonar Law.)
  *MR. LOUGHwas sure that the House generally regretted extremely the absence of the President of the Board of Trade, and the cause of that absence. He thought every one would agree that the hon. Member who had just spoken occupied a very appropriate position in introducing that Bill. He had made himself the apostle of protection, and the measure, though most simple in its character, would be found to embody one of the worst systems of protection ever advocated in this country. The Brussels Convention was an agreement
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  entered into by five Powers—Germany, Austria, France, Holland and Belgium—which were sugar-producing and exporting countries. Great Britain, however, was not a sugar-producing country—it consumed sugar, and the simple object of the Convention was to raise the price of sugar. The plan of the Bill meant the prohibition of imports. The House must have listened to the hon. Member's speech with the utmost amazement. In the only debate they had had on the Convention Ministers devoted their speeches to a justification of the imposition of countervailing duties. The President of the Board of Trade, the Colonial Secretary, and the Prime Minister, in answer to many Questions put by the hon. Member for King's Lynn, all had defended that method. But in this Bill that idea was dropped — a notable triumph for the Opposition, which had declared that such duties would be illegal and impossible. This was the most extraordinary retreat on the part of the Government since the London Education Bill was under discussion. But an even worse principle than countervailing duties was introduced into this Bill—the principle of the prohibition of imports. Let the House realise what that meant to this country. There were fourteen great countries, including Russia, Denmark, Egypt, the United States, the Argentine Republic, Peru, Chili, and the Danish and Dutch colonies—all outside the Convention, which last year sent us sugar amounting to 2,000,000 cwt.; but at the bidding of a foreign Commission in Brussels we were to close our ports to these imports. The country had in past times experience of closing our ports. But under the old Corn Laws this was done to protect our own people and an important British industry—the production of corn. The new principle of protection adopted by the Government was to prevent us from receiving an article which we did not and could not produce at home, with the result that the whole of the benefit of the new policy would accrue to neighbouring Continental nations. It was the habit of hon. Members opposite to quote Mr. Gladstone and Mr. Cobden on such subjects. But they did not want to hear from the Government any more of these

  139
  names. These Statesmen were no longer here; the present generation had to fight its own battles as best it could without them; and they wanted to know from the Government the exact way in which the provisions of the Bill would be enforced. Some explanations had been given, and they sounded very strange to the House. Certificates of origin, punishments for fraud and forgery, the placing of manufactories in bond, under Government supervision by night and by day—these were the old weapons taken out of the mediaeval prison of protection and brought into use in this country once more to strike a deadly blow at manufactures which had grown
  up in the last twenty or thirty years, and to lay heavy burdens on the people. A formidable opposition would be offered to the Bill at every stage, and he firmly believed that the opposition to it would be supported by a vast majority of the people.
  And, the Motion being opposed, after a brief explanatory statement from the Member who made the Motion and from a Member who opposed it, Mr. Speaker put the Question in pursuance of Standing Order No. 11.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 142; Noes, 82. (Division List No. 111.)

  AYES.

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Gordon, Maj. Evans (Tr. H.'ml'ts

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  O'Malley, William

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Greene, Hy. D. (Shrewsbury)

  Percy, Earl

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John.

  Greene, W. Raymond Cambs

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Groves, James Grimble

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord G. (Midd'x

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'd

  Purvis, Robert

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Bignold, Arthur

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick G.

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Heath, James (Staffords. N. W.)

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Brassey, Albert

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Henderson, Sir Alexander

  Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tott'ham

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred

  Robinson, Brooke

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

  Kenyon, Hn. George T. (Denhigh

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc

  Knowles, Lees

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Chaplin, Bight Hon. Henry

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos H. A. E.

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham)

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks)

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Cranborne, Lord

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxfd Univ.

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.)

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Denny, Colonel

  Lowe, Francis William

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tr. Haml'ts

  Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir W. H.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Duke, Henry Edward

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Webb, Col. William George

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts)

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriesshire

  Wilson, John (Glasqow)

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Milvain, Thomas

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Mitchell, William (Burnley)

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Flower, Ernest

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Forster, Henry William

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Fyler, John Arthur

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, S.)

  NOES.

  Allen, Charles P. (Glouc., Stroud

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Priestley, Arthur

  Asher, Alexander

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Rea, Russell

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Black, Alexander William

  Gore, Hn. S. F. Ormsby- (Linc

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Blake, Edward

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Eldon

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Boland, John

  Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Brigg, John

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

  Rose, Charles Day

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Hutton, Alfred K. (Morley)

  Runciman, Walter

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Suhwann, Charles E.

  Caldwell, James

  Jones, William (Carnarv'shire

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Cameron, Robert

  Labouchere, Henry

  Sullivan, Donal

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Tennant, Harold John

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.

  Cawley, Frederick

  Leng, Sir John

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Lloyd-George, David

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Lowther, Rt. Hon. Jas. (Kent)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

  Craig, Rohert Hunter (Lanark)

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Weir, James Galloway

  Cremer, William Randal

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Crombie, John William

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Cullinan, J.

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Williams, O. (Merioneth)

  Cust, Henry John C.

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf'd

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Partington, Oswald

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Paulton, James Mellor

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Mr. Lough and Mr. Gibson

  Edwards, Frank

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Bowles.

  Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidstone

  Perks, Robert William

  Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Gerald Balfour and Mr. Bonar Law.

  SUGAR CONVENTION BILL.
  "To make provision for giving effect to a Convention signed on the 5th day of March, 1902, in relation to Sugar," presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Monday 8th June, and to be printed. (Bill 230.)
  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (SUPPLY).
  Ordered, That the Motion for the adjournment of the House for Whitsuntide have precedence this day of the Business of Supply.—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
  ADJOURNMENT (WHITSUNTIDE).
  THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Sir A. ACLAND-HOOD,)formally moved "That this House do now adjourn until Monday, 8th June."

  FISCAL POLICY OF THE COUNTRY.
  *SIR CHARLES DILKE: It is, I think, impossible for the House to adjourn for the recess without some consideration of the topics which have recently been introduced as electoral topics for the consideration
  142
  of the country on behalf of the Administration. They constitute a change in our fiscal policy, and indeed in the whole policy of this country, which is revolutionary and opposed to all the traditions and opinions of the overwhelming majority of this House, including, I believe, a majority of hon. Gentlemen opposite. That, surely, is a matter for the consideration of the House which ought not to be delayed. Many hon. Members would have taken an even earlier opportunity of bringing these topics to the attention of the House had it not been known that this opportunity would occur to-day. But that the House should wait until the discussion of the Finance Bill, which might not provide so good an opportunity for eliciting the exact position in which we stand, seems to me to be impossible under the circumstances. The declarations to which I allude are contained notably in three different speeches. I may have to mention speeches by the First Lord of the Treasury and the President of the Local Government Board; but the speeches to which I wish particularly to direct the attention of the House are a speech on the 15th inst., a very few important words in a speech delivered in this House on Friday, and a speech on Saturday by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade.

  143
  These three speeches form a series. I believe hon. Members who have watched the speeches of the Colonial Secretary for years did not think that the first of these speeches carried matters much farther than he carried them some years ago. Yet, that speech, read in the light of the subsequent speech of the right hon. Gentleman in this House, and the direct statement of the Secretary to the Board of Trade, receives a momentous importance, an electoral bearing, a bearing on the policy of the Government as a whole, which forces it on the attention of the House. In the second speech of the Colonial Secretary in this House, he dotted the i's of his first speech, because he stated that the enormous sum of money required for old-age pensions could not be supplied except by one means, and that means was a duty on the foreign imports of this country. I think the right hon. Gentleman will not deny that he pointed to a duty on food and raw materials. I cannot for the life of me see how, unless a duty is laid on food and raw materials, he can find from our foreign imports the amount of money he requires.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN,): I shall have to explain at some length to the House. All I ask the right hon. Baronet for the moment is not to quote me as committed to this, that, or any other proposition. Perhaps, I have not made myself clear. I have not the slightest objection to the right hon. Baronet quoting to any extent he likes; but he must not appeal to me to agree with his quotations.
  *SIR CHARLES DILKE: The main words of the right hon. Gentleman's speech in the House were that the vast sum of money required for old-age pensions was to be provided by a review of our fiscal system. My contention—which I will not father on the right hon. Gentleman—is that it is impossible to find that amount of money without imposing a duty on food and raw materials. Almost all the imports of this country consist of food and raw materials, or half manufactured materials, which, although they come in as manufactured goods, are in fact raw material. I need only allude to the boot
  144
  and shoe trade, which lives on leather manufactured abroad, but which in fact is raw material. That the Colonial Secretary was thinking of some system of the kind is shown by his words in another speech, and in a letter in which he said that, in his belief, the working classes would submit to a considerable increase in the cost of living provided they got increased wages. Surely, that pointed to a duty on food and raw materials, not to a duty on luxuries. The speech of the Secretary to the Board of Trade took these speeches entirely out of the category of personal utterances or speeches only suggesting a policy for the distant future. The Secretary to the Board of Trade stated, as though by authority, that these speeches were concerted by the Government. The matter is one of first-class importance; and if the result of this debate is to prove that the impression which I have stated was incorrect, the debate will not be without good result. What the Secretary to the Board of Trade said was that the speakers struck the same note; that they struck it in complete harmony; and that he might say, what was the actual fact, that the policy expressed in these speeches was the policy which was arranged between the Statesmen who uttered it. I leave the House to draw its own conclusions. No doubt the Government will speak through authorised exponents of their views in this debate. These words were very clear, and very strong; and the importance which the first speech of the Colonial Secretary has assumed, rests on a belief, formed in our minds, and supported by all ordinary sources of information, which has not astonished us more than it has astonished a large number of hon. Gentlemen opposite.
  The hon. Members who have spoken on this subject and who have adopted the policy of the Colonial Secretary do not, I think, include the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I heard with deep concern that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been called away to Aberdeen, where I know he had a very pressing engagement, but I see he has not kept it. I am very glad the right hon. Gentleman is here, because, when the Secretary of the Board of Trade, in the regrettable illness of the President of the Board of Trade, speaks as he did at Chester, it is clear that we ought to

  145
  ascertain, as early as possible, whether he speaks with the authority of the Financial Department of the Government which is specially concerned, if not with the authority of the Government as a whole. This matter is not one in which it is possible for any individual Minister to assume the assent of his colleagues in so startling a change of policy as this of the Colonial Secretary, unless it has been before the Cabinet as a whole, but to judge from the words used by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he proposed the repeal of the corn tax, the feeling in the Cabinet falls altogether short of the thorough agreement which has been alluded to on the policy which has now been revealed. The Government were parties to certain early stages of this policy. The Cabinet was a party to the Colonial Conferences of 1897 and 1902. The policy of those Conferences ought to have been discussed by this House, but it never was properly discussed, and one reason for raising this matter now is the very fact that this policy has not been discussed heretofore. That policy as a whole is a dangerous policy; it was entering into a career which might or might not lead to the difficulties in which we now find ourselves. The basis of those Conferences was virtually the same. Those Conferences were called to consider defence contribution from the colonies, and after that the preference to be given by the colonies to the mother country. There was nothing about preference by us, and there is a very great distinction between the two things. I will not dwell upon it. I will merely state it in the words used by Professor Davidson of the University of New Brunswick, in his book, which is the best ever written on the subject. He is a Canadian advocate of preferential duties, but in his book he distinctly states that it is not possible for us to adopt preferential duties, that the disturbance in our trade will be so vast and overwhelming that the colonies must not expect that we should follow them. He also points out—and this is material—that it is easy for a protectionist colony to give preferential duties by raising the protectionist duties against the world and then lowering them again as against the mother country. The Conference, from the contribution point of view,
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  was a fiasco; it did not produce the contribution which had been expected. Putting aside what has been alleged, that Australia has increased her naval contribution, and it must be borne in mind that that increase will be very small under the new conditions, which are the old conditions with worse new ones attached, the Conference of 1902, from the point of view of the defence contribution, was a fiasco, but the Conference of 1897 did produce the adoption by Canada of preferential duties in our favour. What was the statement of the right hon. Gentleman who seemed willing, as perhaps the Government were also willing, to give up our principles without obtaining a contribution, as to the effect of these preferential duties? In the report of the Colonial Conference he said the rate of increase under the preferential tariff was actually less than under the general tariff and under the free tariff. That was a pretty admission. The Secretary to the Board of Trade, who is the professional economist of the Government, and who is always turned on to give a sort of economic gloss to their heresies, knows that this is their weak point, and he tackled it courageously in the speech at Chester. The hon. Gentleman, who is a Canadian protectionist, used these words. He said—
  "He had carefully examined the figures, and he was well within the mark in saying that we did at least 20 per cent. more trade with Canada now than we would have done if that preference had not been granted."
  That conflicts very strongly with the words of the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State gave the case away but the Under Secretary of State defended it. Now, it will be observed that the hon. Gentleman used a hypothesis in defending this policy. Indeed, he used the very language, and probably the figures too, of the Canadian Memorandum, which did not prevail with the Department which he represents. The Board of Trade Memorandum, on the other hand, stated that the comparison failed to show any marked effect of the preferential tariff in stimulating trade between the British Empire and the Dominion. I much regret the absence of the President of the Board of Trade, but I do think in the absence of

  147
  the right hon. Gentleman we ought to have some statement from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or some member of the Ministry, as to what is the Board of Trade's present view of the subject, and whether we are justified in assuming that they adhere to the Memorandum which they laid before the Colonial Conference.
  Now let us look at the policy which is to be placed before the people on the dissolution. The policy now proposed by the Secretary for the Colonies appears to be to raise a large income from duties on foreign imports, which in order to be large must include duties on food and raw materials. The Secretary to the Board of Trade does not admit that; he cautiously stated at Chester that there were difficulties about food and raw materials. I should certainly think there were, but surely it is time, when this policy is to be acclaimed from half the platforms in the country, that we should know where we stand on the question whether the millions which are to be claimed for the purpose of old-age pensions are to be got out of duties upon food. The hon. Member the Secretary to the Board of Trade is Member for Glasgow, and I feel for him. No doubt he does not want to offend powerful colleagues by one declaration or his constituents by the other, and he cannot be taken to mean anything further than his words suggest, and with regard to raw material he tried to meet the difficulty by suggesting a tax with the adoption of the principle of rebates. That would be a pretty job for this country with our gigantic industries, using raw materials part of which are foreign and part colonial. How the rebate is to be allowed I cannot conceive, but if we are to be drawn into this policy this question must be asked at once. I remember a despatch once laid before this House by a distinguished Secretary of State which related a conversation between himself and the French Ambassador on the question of free trade. The French Ambassador got very angry because he was looked upon as a protectionist, and declared that he was a life-long free-trader. "Yes, I know," said the Secretary of State, "but I have never for the life of me been able to understand the difference between a French free-trader
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  and a British protectionist." The House can apply that resemblance here. Right hon. gentlemen think they are free-traders, but there are tests with regard to free trade, and they do not come up to those tests. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade shook his head on being accused of being a protectionist, and used these words: Alluding to the Secretary of State for the Colonies he said the right hon. Gentleman was a free-trader; then he said he—
  "Also believed in free trade, or at least he thought he believed in it."
  MR. BONAR LAW: It depends on the definition of free trade.
  *SIR CHARLES DILKE: No doubt. The hon. Gentleman went on to give not a definition but an explanation, and this is the explanation. "He wished them to remember that in the early days of the last century our commercial supremacy was infinitely greater than it ever had been since." The hon. Gentleman evidently regretted the good old times. That was in the days "when free trade had not been thought of." I confess it had never previously entered my head that anyone could regret "the early times of the last century." The hon. Member could not mean that he regretted the days of the Great War, and therefore he must refer to the period between 1819 and 1831.
  MR. BONAR LAW: At the beginning of the century.
  *SIR CHARLES DILKE: He regrets the Great War! I do not know whether the old country party opposition would go so far as to regret the absence of the prices which obtained during the Great War. You have to take into consideration the causes by which those prices were produced. It never entered my mind that people would regret the early part of that century, when even the loyalty of the working classes, which in all periods of trial in English history has been so extraordinary, was shaken to the point of rick-burning, bread riots, and other horrors.
  MR. JAMES LOWTHER: There were no duties, except a very nominal tax, on any breadstuffs at all.
  *SIR CHARLES DILKE: In any case, the war did the duty of a tax in keeping goods out. But it is not my argument; it is the argument of the Secretary to the Board of Trade; he regrets those days.
  MR. BONAR LAW: I must really interrupt the right hon. Baronet. He says I regret the particular set of circumstances which obtained at the beginning of the last century. What I did say was an undoubted historical fact, that our trade supremacy was greater then than it has been ever since free trade was adopted.
  *SIR CHARLES DILKE: But circumstances which had nothing to do with his argument at the moment require consideration. It was a time when our ships had swept the sea, and the one neutral power in the world had been so bullied by us that she was obliged to go to war with us. But this is a test of free trade, and I should like to ask any defender of this policy whether that test is here possible or not. When dealing with cotton duties in India and Egypt we have insisted that there should be an excise exactly corresponding to the duties imposed. We have not heard a word about that in this case. Unless that policy is applied, pure protection must be the result of the duties. We ought to know at once where we stand on this subject. We are told there is concurrence amongst the leading members of the Government in the statements which have been made pointing to large duties on foreign imports, but those statements are hardly consistent with the action of the Government—and actions speak louder than words—in repealing the Corn Tax. The Corn Tax was repealed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in language which was guarded, no doubt, and intended to cover the views of two sets of colleagues who perhaps did not agree among themselves, but which nevertheless was free trade and not protectionist. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is the guardian of the great commercial interests of the country; he is regarded as a safe man. It is true he has a "past" concerning a certain heresy on this subject, but I am glad to welcome him as a convert of many
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  years standing. The late Archbishop of Canterbury began by being suspected of heresy, and the whole of his clergy rose in arms against him on his elevation to the Episcopate, but he ended by being a pillar of orthodoxy in the Church. And so with the Chancellor of the Exchequer. We take him joyfully to our arms, and, as he is regarded in Threadneedle Street as a safe man, let him give us safety here. I do not wish to hold the First Lord too closely to what was perhaps an innocent slip when he spoke of the Corn Duty as a bread tax.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: It was a slip.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: It was a slip? We maintain that it is a bread tax, and if this is a well considered policy, wild though we think it, it is a policy which rests essentially upon the taxation of food and raw materials.
  The speech of the Secretary of State, in the light of subsequent utterances, must be regarded as the foundation of this policy, and its arguments are well worth consideration in this House. The right hon. Gentleman began, of course, by abusing the Manchester School. He said the Manchester School was dead, but he went on to say that if Cobden had been alive he would have been found on his platform. I venture to think that had Cobden been in favour of this policy it would have been only because he had lived to an excessive age and softening of the brain had set in. The right hon. Gentleman went on to attack the "dangerous policy of Home Rule," which has some connection with this subject, but not much. It reminds us of the fact that all the great white colonies of which the right hon. Gentleman was speaking are in favour of Home Rule. So that in advocating federal union with these white colonies, the right hon. Gentleman is in this curious position: he is in favour of federal union and against Home Rule, while the white colonies are in favour of Home Rule, and Australia is entirely opposed to the policy of federal union. The Colonial Secretary declared that the whole of this policy was new, and that it had to be taken up suddenly because there had arisen a condition of affairs entirely different from anything

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  which had ever before existed in the history of the British Empire. His words were—
  "This idea of common responsibility is altogether a new one."
  That is an amazing statement to come from anyone learned in the history of our colonies, especially from the Statesman at the head of the Colonial Office. The doctrine of common responsibility between ourselves and our colonies was fully recognised in the foundation of all the great colonies. It was expressly recognised in the time of Cromwell, when a proportionately larger force of colonial militia followed the British flag in foreign wars than even in the late war. It was recognised by Washington, and at the time of the siege of Louisburg,—indeed, throughout the 18th century, and it was only brought to an end, as far as the American colonies were concerned, by the tactless and rash haste with which we interfered with the fabric that had slowly been built up. The Colonial Secretary said the Empire itself is new. Why, the doctrine of the Imperial character of the British Crown is as old as the Monarchy! It has been asserted over and over again in the laws of the country; it had to do with the Reformation, and it was expressly recognised throughout Tudor times. That statement of the right hon. Gentleman led up to an astounding omission from the speech, upon which I comment because it is an omission from the entire policy which robs it of all claim to be considered as a truly Imperial policy. The Colonial Secretary said—
  "I am not going to speak to-night of those hundreds of millions of our Indian and native fellow subjects."
  In the British Empire and her protectorates there are 400,000,000 people, 300,000,000 of whom are in India, but the Colonial Secretary said he would deal only with the "10,000,000 of our white fellow subjects in the self-governing colonies," who, with the 40,000,000 here, make 50,000,000 out of 400,000,000. The remaining 350,000,000 he shut out not only of his speech, which would not have been of much importance, but of the whole policy which is now being developed as regards the trade, finance, and future of the Empire. In the whole
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  of that speech there was not the vestige of a suggestion as to how the enormous Indian problem is to be faced. If the right hon. Gentleman, instead of being Colonial Secretary for so long, had had a term of office as Secretary of State for India, and had approached this question from that side, I am sure he would have looked at it in a different way, and he would have tried to shape his policy to meet the difficulties of the case. When dealing with the fiscal policy of this country there ought always to be present to our minds the fact that India pays her share of the cost of running the Empire, while others do not. You have only to contrast what is paid per head in Ceylon with what is paid per head in Southern India to see that that is so. India has every claim to consideration, and our responsibility towards her is greater than to the self-governing colonies. The Colonial Secretary said that if this matter had been taken in time—
  "We might have laid the foundations of an Imperial edifice."
  Franklin tried it, and why did his plan of federal union fail? In a letter in 1767, Franklin said it was because the colonies were indifferent, but the real fact was that New England was opposed to it, as Australia is opposed to it now. It is dangerous in the highest degree to attempt to force federal union on the colonies as long as you have the notorious fact before you that Australia is opposed to any such system There was a debate on this subject on 3rd April, 1900, when the Colonial Secretary said that we should make no suggestions of our own upon a subject so extraordinarily delicate and dangerous. We must wait for suggestions from the colonies.
  He was against all rash dealings with the question, but now he says it must be taken up at once. In the speech of the 15th he said—
  "Unless trade is dealt with … I do not believe in a continued union."
  But there is a link of Empire which was not mentioned in that speech. Federal union is put out of the question by the opposition of Australia, but the link to which I refer is strong in Australia. If that link is all that is required by the colonies you may very well leave well alone in that respect.

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  The right hon. Gentleman says we ought to tempt the colonies into federal union by a trade preference. That is not a new policy. Trade preference has been tried before. Some of us still remember the last examples of trade preference. Trade preference was a gross, gigantic, and admitted failure. I would refer hon. Members to what Adam Smith says on the doctrine of trade preference, and the reason it was swept away by an indignant country. The Colonial Secretary believes that Australia is coming into line with Canada in this matter, and he said—
  "Australia has accepted the principle …. and pledged themselves to recommend a substantial preference in favour of the goods of the Mother country."
  That is an exaggeration. What the representatives of Australia pledged themselves to was a general resolution in favour of a preference "not yet defined as to nature or extent." Yesterday the Commonwealth Parliament was opened by Lord Tennyson, and he declared, in the name of the Commonwealth Ministry, that while they had agreed to these general words they were not in a position to make any proposal to Parliament upon the subject. That fact seems to me conclusively to show that it was most unwise and rash, unless done for electoral reasons, to raise this question at the present time. If we are to tempt the colonies by such duties, has anyone considered and thought out how they are to be tempted? Take the Australian colonies. They send us wool and they have a monoply of the best wool in the world. They send us half our wool supply, which is the greatest export of Australia. It is well known that we buy an equal quantity of wool from other portions of the world and largely from South America. We mix a portion of that wool and export it to all parts of the world. Under these circumstances, I cannot conceive how any such proposal will benefit the Australian colonies. On the other hand, there is the beef trade. I doubt whether any such proposal in the long run would allow Australia to compete with the producers of South America; therefore you are to tax the whole of the enormous imports of beef, consumed largely by the miners and the navvies of this country, which comes almost exclusively from South America and through Holland from
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  the south of Europe. The Secretary of State for the Colonies, on a former occasion, faced all these difficulties himself. He faced them in the speech made on the 3rd of April, 1900, and he declared them to be insuperable. What has happened since that time? On the 3rd of April, 1900, the Secretary of State for the Colonies said—
  "He had never proposed a Zollverein."
  He said—
  "It was one of those recurring mistakes of which I am so largely the victim."
  and he also made this curious statement, that all that he had done was to follow Lord Ripon—a curious leader to follow, for a Minister holding views such as those which are entertained by the Secretary for the Colonies. Proceeding, the right hon. Gentleman said—
  "If there is to be any kind of fiscal arrangement with the Colonies, the only form which I myself think would be viewed with the slightest favour in this country would be that of an Imperial Zollverein, in which there should be free trade between the whole Empire."
  Therefore this proposal is an impossible one. In the first place, Australia will not look at it. Protection in Australia is directed against our manufactures and against India—it is directed against the cheap labour of India. I agree that if there was the slightest probability of this country being willing to consider any system of this kind it would be an Imperial Zollverein, but that would hamper our trade to a degree which few people have considered. Nothing else has the slightest chance of being considered. The people of this country are not going to raise the price of their food or put an end to their Most-Favoured-Nation treaties. The people of this country are not going to permit a monstrous injustice to be done to the people of India which this suggested policy would involve.
  In conclusion, I wish to ask the House to consider for the moment how any such system would operate upon our trade. Take the case of America. We send on an average to North and South America £50,000,000 worth of British and Irish produce and manufactures, and we send a still larger amount of other things which we buy and sell. We send in an average year £20,000,000 worth of British and Irish produce and manufactures to the United

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  States, £22,000,000 to the Latin Republics, and £8,000,000 to our colonies. What do we receive in return? We receive the whole of our cotton. We receive also an enormous amount of grain, beef, and most of our mineral oils. We also receive an enormous proportion of half-manufactured goods used in our manufactures, such as the leather used in our boot and shoe trade. Therefore the articles mainly affected would be firstly cotton, and after that mainly food. Take the case of cotton. By interfering with our trade with America we are jeopardising our exports of £42,000,000, which is more under British influence and more under the influence of British capital than even our colonial trade. It is a curious fact that we supply many of the South American States in a higher degree than Canada, and we send five times more per head of manufactures and produce there than we do to our own colonies. Are we to interfere with such a trade? Are we to tax cotton, and if not why not? You may say that we do not grow cotton in the British Empire, but we do. I do not know whether Egypt is to be dealt with as a portion of the Empire. As my hon. friends from Manchester well know, we are getting cotton from West Africa, Queensland, Fiji and India. These attempts to produce cotton within the British Empire are increasing, but up to the present time we are producing only a mere fraction of the total amount required. Are you going to tax all our cotton for the benefit of the colonial producers? Are we to tax the food, the raw material and the half-manufactured goods? I am convinced that this policy has not been thought out, and when it is clearly put before the people of this country it will be as universally condemned as it was in the time of our grandfathers.
  *THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): I do not know that there is very much that I can sympathise with in the speech we have just listened to, but at least I agree with the right hon. Baronet that the present is a more convenient occasion for raising this discussion than the Second Reading of the Budget, with which the great topics
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  brought by the right hon. Gentleman before the attention of the House have nothing to do. For my own part I rejoice that this question—if it is to be discussed at all—should be discussed at a moment in which we may leave altogether on one side the scheme of the Government for dealing with this year's finances.
  There was one word which recurred at brief intervals throughout the right hon. Baronet's speech, the word "heresy," which I think is not advisedly introduced when we are dealing with scientific and political questions of the kind raised this afternoon. It indicates a tendency to go back to authority and formulae which, at all events in the region of political economy, were originally used in conditions of society and of trade very different from those which now prevail, and whose modern use would certainly not be authorised by those who originally devised them. I would beg the House, in dealing with a problem which is essentially novel, not to wave the flags, now somewhat ragged and moth-eaten, which, either on the protectionist or free trade side, saw service under our fathers and grandfathers in the great battles fought fifty or sixty years ago.
  The right hon. Baronet, in part of his speech, endeavoured to discuss in a serious spirit the very difficult problems in which we are now engaged. One part, however, was devoted to a less elevated object, and was intended apparently to make mischief between my right hon. friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies and myself. In that amiable intention I think the right hon. Gentleman will fail. May I ask the right hon. Baronet himself what course he thinks my right hon. friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies ought to have pursued in this connection after what occurred at the Colonial Conference last year? The Colonial Prime Ministers when, in this country were asked to confer with the Secretary of State and with other high officers of the Government upon questions material to the Empire as a whole. The result of their labours is embodied in a Blue-book, where the following expression of opinion will be found—
  "That this Conference recognises that the principle of preferential trade between the

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  United Kingdom and His Majesty's Dominions beyond the seas would stimulate and facilitate mutual intercourse, and would, by promoting the development of the resources and industries of the several parts, strengthen the Empire."
  Now I want to know whether, in the opinion of the right hon. Baronet, or in the opinion of the House at large, my right hon. friend who summoned that Conference, whose personal influence and whose personal genius has done so much to stimulate the feeling of common citizenship in all parts of the Empire—whether the right hon. Baronet or any other critic of my right hon. friend thinks that he ought to have allowed that Resolution of the Prime Ministers to sleep in the pages of a Blue-book, or whether he was not bound to raise the subject for the discussion and for the decision, not merely of the people of this country, but of the citizens of the Empire. I do not see that what my hon. friend has done with characteristic force and characteristic eloquence—can be the subject of complaint. What he has done he could not but do; and if in doing it he has greatly stirred the public interest, surely this is small blame to him.
  Turning now from the more personal aspects of the question, I should like to ask the House to take a rather wider, and certainly a less polemic, view of the present economic position of the country than has been taken by the right hon. Baronet, or by, so far as I know, any of those who have hitherto taken part in this controversy. The right hon. Baronet has been constantly referring to the old free trade doctrines and has been constantly repeating the old free trade formulas. These doctrines and formulas were, in my judgment, sufficiently accurate within the limits of space and time to which they refer. But I would remind the House that the position of these Islands is now entirely different, not only from what it actually was in 1846, but, which is more important, is entirely different from what all the leading free-traders of that day supposed it was going to be. They prophesied that our example would induce the whole world to adopt a free trade policy, that this country would find itself a free trade nation among free trade nations, and they deduced from these premises conclusions with which I entirely agree. But then their prophecies,
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  unfortunately, were wrong. There is in the whole world not one civilised free trade community, so far as I know, except ourselves. That may be a surprising result, and I am not going to examine how it came about, but it is the fact; and what is more, I do not think that any observer of contemporary tendencies would suggest for one instant that the policy in which every civilised community—including our own self-governing colonies—has thus embarked, is a policy which they have shown the smallest inclination to reverse. We therefore have to look forward in future to a condition of things in which more and more there will be a wall of hostile tariffs built up against us, in which foreign nations will increasingly manipulate their own tariffs to our disadvantage, and in which we shall less and less be able to find in civilised countries a market for our manufactured goods. Take the case, for example, of a country which is in one sense highly protectionist, but which from the necessities of its situation is obliged to take a large amount of our manufactured goods—I mean Russia. The deliberate policy of the Minister of Finance in Russia is to so manipulate the tariff that gradually Russia will be what I believe, so far as its internal resources are concerned, it has it in its power to be, and what America has long aspired to be, that is, an industrially self-contained community — not seriously dependent upon importation from foreign countries. Now, Sir, if that tendency is to go on in the future as it has in the past, a time, so far as I can see, must come when the only neutral markets open to us will be countries like China and Turkey, and within the British Empire—our own protectorates, our own Crown colonies, and India. This country, therefore, if what I am stating is correct, will then be in a position in which it will be obliged to import an even greater proportion of its foodstuffs and of its raw material than at present, and will have to pay for them by exports which it will find even more difficult than at present to dispose of to advantage. Observe, I am not treating this upon the old protectionist idea, which was that it was your business, by excluding rival manufactures, to foster your own. That is not the argument I am advancing. What I am

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  trying to point out to the House is this: that inasmuch as Britain must more and more be a manufacturing country as distinguished from an agricultural one, inasmuch as it must more and more depend upon foreign countries for its supplies of raw material and of food, inasmuch as it will have to pay for those supplies by its exports, if we are compelled by exterior tariffs, whether in our own colonies or foreign countries, to dispose of our manufactures on onerous terms, the community will suffer. The country, as a whole, will pay an immense tribute to the other countries on which it must impose its goods in order to get from them the corn and meat and raw material which of necessity it is obliged to import. I may parenthetically remark that this effect is at present disguised by the fact that we have enormous investments abroad, that we are a creditor country on a great scale, and that we get our necessary imports not merely by the export of our manufactures, but also in payment of the debt which foreign nations owe to us as investors in their funds, in their railway enterprises, and as the carriers of the world. But as far as I understand the modern tendencies of industry, there is a stream running now the other way, and that at all events, so far as the United States of America are concerned, where at one time were some of our largest and heaviest debtors, there is a movement in precisely the opposite direction to what I have described—a movement which seems to tend in the direction of making us the debtors of the United States. If this is symptomatic of a general tendency, then I say we shall be in the position of having to pay for these necessary imports on terms which will be most onerous to the country taken, as a whole.
  I hope it will be admitted that the argument I have been urging is neither "protectionist" nor unsound.
  LORD HUGH CECIL: No, no.
  *MR. A. J. BALFOUR: My noble friend thinks it is not a sound argument, but if he is as good a political economist as I take him to be, he will recognise
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  on reflection that it has a greater value than he is at present prepared to admit. And if I have carried the House, or, at all events, some of the House, with me so far in my argument, I would ask this question—If the conditions under which our present fiscal system was introduced are admitted on all hands not to be conditions which now prevail, if these conditions never were anticipated by those who laid deep and broad the foundations of our national finance, are not the leaders of political thought in this country bound to raise the question whether the time has not come when we must abandon, as an absolute doctrine, the principle that revenue is never to be raised except for purposes of expenditure, and whether we ought not to contemplate the possibility of having to raise revenue for purposes of wider financial scope? For example, are we really in our hearts content with a position which leaves us absolutely helpless in the face of alt foreign countries in regard to tariff negotiations? It may be said that this is the least bad of the possible alternatives; but that in itself it is eminently disagreeable I think will be admitted by anybody who has had to do with commercial negotiation. And I go farther, and I say, that if there is to be in reality an attempt on the part of foreign countries to declare that we are so fiscally distinct from our self-governing colonies that they are to be treated as separate nations, then, I say, we shall be forced by patriotism, by public opinion, by every regard for ourselves and our Empire to resist such a pretension even to the point of adopting retaliatory tariffs. Are we to be told that Canada, Australia,, and New Zealand, and India, are not parts of the British Empire, that they are to be treated as separate nations simply because we have given them fiscal independence? I quite admit that we, and we alone, so far as I know, among the nations of the world have been able to create such a thing as a self-governing colony; but is this a reason why these self-governing colonies are to be excluded from the benefits given to the colonies of less fortunate communities? I am quite sure we should never assent to such a pretension; and I am equally sure that it cannot be adequately resisted, unless

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  we have at command some weapon by which those who endeavour to disintegrate the Empire by fiscal means may be properly met.
  Well, Sir, that is one reason why we should discuss whether we may not profitably raise revenue for non-revenue purposes. But there is another, and that is, in the words of the Colonial Prime Ministers, to bind the Empire closer together. Hon. Members may say, "That is a good object, but like other good objects, you may pay too dearly for it." This is true. It is a question of price, but that the thing itself is of great value I cannot imagine anybody denying — even a leading member of the Cobden Club. The thing itself is worth getting if you can get it without paying too heavily for it. Very well, that is a thing which has got to be debated. We may well find out what it is we have to give and what it is that we want to get. The actual scheme which the Prime Ministers of the colonies desired, I believe, was that there should be a preference given to the imports from the colonies, in exchange for which they should mitigate the severity of their hostile tariffs against us. The right hon. Baronet says that the tax by which that has to be done must be either a tax on raw material or a tax on food. I can not imagine that it would be wise in any circumstances to put a tax on the raw material on which our own manufactures depend, and I do not know that such a tax has ever been proposed by anybody. Nor can I say whether the people of this country are ready to accept the other alteration and submit to a tax on food. Of course, if they are not ready, it is impossible to carry out any large scheme such as that proposed by the Colonial Prime Ministers. I entirely agree; but you will never have a tax on food, in my opinion, accepted by the people of this country except as an integral part of a large policy on which their hearts are set. With that you can do it; without it you cannot. The idea that you can go back to the old protective days and ask the people of this country to tax their food in the interests of the farmer or the miller, I do not believe is within the region of practical politics. But if by means of a tax on food you can put the whole fiscal position, and the whole
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  Imperial position of this country on a different and better footing, is it so certain that the working classes of the country will repudiate such a policy? Supposing that as a result of a tax upon food-stuffs — a general tax upon food-stuffs—it were possible to stop this process by which, not merely in foreign countries, but in our own colonies, there was being created, under a system of protection, an enormous number of vested manufacturing interests—supposing that it were possible by such a policy as that, not indeed to attain full free trade—that is beyond the power of any conceivable combination—but to diminish protection against our manufactures now and hereafter—is this so certain to be rejected? Remember the picture I drew just now of the future of this country if existing tendencies were permitted to go on indefinitely. If you can, by some arrangement with the colonies, check that tendency so far as they are concerned, if you can keep an open market, or a market approaching to an open market, for British manufactured goods, do not you think you might be doing something which the most rigid free trader might accept as a substantial contribution to his ideals. Would the working men of this country submit to a tax on food? Would the colonies submit to a partial reversal of their protection system? These are the two all-important questions. They cannot be answered now. They can never be answered except by public discussion and examination. And unless they can both be answered in the affirmative no such plan as that recommended by the Colonial Premiers can ever be carried out.
  Mr. Speaker, I always regret the manner in which political economy is treated in this House and on public platforms. It is not treated as a science, or as a subject which people ought to approach impartially with a view to discovering what the truth is, either from theory or experience. Not at all. They find some formula in a book of authority and throw it at their opponents' heads. They bandy the old watchwords back wards and forwards they rouse old bitternesses, wholly alien, as far as I can see, to any modern question; and our controversies are apt to alternate

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  between outworn formulae imperfectly remembered, and modern doctrines imperfectly understood. That is not a fortunate state of things, and I should hope that one result of my right hon. friend's speech and of the debate to-day will be that the country will devote itself, not in a partisan spirit, to the consideration of the real economic position in which we stand, and the real difficulties we have to face now and in the immediate future, and the best way of meeting these difficulties.
  Before I sit down may I say one word in addition on a more personal aspect of the question. My right hon. friend has been accused, as far as I understand it, of saying things in contradiction of, and inconsistent with, statements I have made; with having started a hare of his own; with having developed a policy quite irrespective of his colleagues. I think I have shown, as far as I apprehend the matter, that there is no contradiction between my right hon. friend's views and my own. I go much farther. Supposing my right hon. friend had done, what he has not done—supposing he had developed a policy of his own with which his colleagues have no sympathy. I cannot understand on what ground criticism is levelled against him. People say: "Oh, the Prime Minister made such and such a statement, and on the very same day the Colonial Secretary made a speech very different in spirit, if not in matter." They at first said that it was contradictory in substance as well as divergent in tone. They have given that up. But are my colleagues and I bound to come together, and not merely to consider how we can act together as a united Government, but also how every speech is to be made precisely with the same flavour of rhetoric1? The thing is really absurd; and, speaking for myself, I will not be a party to depriving others of a liberty which I have always arrogated to myself. I remember some years ago I made more than one speech, I think, and certainly wrote more than one public letter, on the subject of University education in Ireland. Those were my own opinions. I did not bind the Government; I did not mean to bind the Government. I
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  thought, and I still think, that great good might be done by ventilating the question. If you prevent politicians who either are or have been in high office from taking an independent line upon subjects which are not part of the immediate policy of the Government, you lose one of the most valuable methods of forming and directing the public opinion which this country possesses.
  AN HON. MEMBER: That is a new idea.
  *MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Does the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton say that that is a new idea?
  SIR HENRY FOWLERdissented.
  *MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Remember that this question is not one that this House will have to decide this session, or next session, or the session after; it is not a question that the existing House of Commons will have to decide at all. It is not a question connected with this year's Budget or with next year's. It is a question of our future fiscal policy, which requires a most careful study on its strictly scientific and economic side, and a most careful study on what I might call its Imperial and social side. How is that study to be even started on its way, how is it to be brought to any good or useful result if these official bonds are to be drawn as tight as the hon. Gentleman desires? My right hon. friend, I believe, is in absolute agreement with everything I have said to-day.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: Hear, hear!
  *MR. A. J. BALFOUR: But supposing he was not, supposing that on this point there was a difference of opinion between us, is that a reason why either my right hon. friend or I should keep silence? I think not; and I believe it would be an enormous loss to the really formative forces of opinion in this country if you are going wholly to prevent any man in public life from that freedom of expression on matters not immediately before the country or

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  the House, which is possessed by the least experienced of his fellow-citizens.
  I have, I am aware, trespassed at considerable length on the House, and I know that some of the arguments I have adduced have been dry, and perhaps, with my imperfect power of expression, not easy to follow. But I am convinced that the trend of thought which I have ventured—in, I believe, absolute conformity with the views of my right hon. friend [Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN: Hear, hear!]—to develop is eminently worthy of elucidation, not merely within these walls, not indeed chiefly within these walls, but by public discussion, by the careful collection of information. Then, if public opinion ripens, if the colonies, and if the people of this country, are of opinion that we ought seriously to endeavour to put the British Empire in an economic position which would make it in any way equal to the magnificent economic position obtained by the United States, then I think we should have done well. I am certain that this scheme is practicable, but unless some other scheme having the same results can be brought to fruition,—if the British Empire is to remain as it is at present, a series of isolated economic units—it is vain for us to hope that this branch at all events of the great Anglo-Saxon race is destined to have the great industrial and political future which undoubtedly lies before the United States of America.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: After listening very carefully to the speech of the Prime Minister I do not think any hon. Member has the slightest conception of what the policy of the Government is. The Prime Minister said something about not being responsible for the rhetoric of the Colonial Secretary. That was a very necessary disclaimer; but does he treat the speech of the Colonial Secretary merely as an exhibition of fireworks, or is it a declaration of policy on behalf of the Government? That, I think, the House of Commons is entitled to know. The Prime Minister forgets. He is not a member of a debating society. He is the Prime Minister, responsible for the Government of this country. What we
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  want to know from him, and what we are entitled to know from him, is whether he, as Prime Minister, really means to endorse the policy of the Colonial Secretary to carry out what he calls fiscal reform in this country on the basis of preferential tariffs with the colonies. The Prime Minister said that this was a matter of discussion among leaders of thought. If he thinks it is a proper subject for a paper at the Colonial Institute, or to be dealt with in an economic review, no one would have a word to say about it. It would be on a par with such a question as whether the execution of Mary Queen of Scots was justifiable, which debating societies still discuss. But the practical question is whether this is a policy which the Prime Minister is to submit to the country. Let me remind the House of Commons, that the first time it was mentioned in this House as a practical matter was by the Colonial Secretary on Friday, when he said that old-age pensions were not dead, that it was a practical matter at last. The right hon. Gentleman shakes his head. Has it ceased to be a practical matter since Friday?
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I only shook my head in protest against the continual and most improper action of the hon. Gentleman in invariably misquoting his opponents.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: I am in the recollection of the House as to what happened on Friday. We complained that the matter was not seriously treated, and that it was not intended to deal with it. The Colonial Secretary then said it was not dead, that it was going to be dealt with; and, not only that, but that it was going to be dealt with by the fiscal reform of this country. What does that mean if it does not mean that it is a practical matter?
  Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I did not say what the hon. Gentleman says I did. What I said was that it could not be dealt with without a review of the fiscal policy.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: I recognise at once that there is a distinction. On Friday last we understood that there

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  was a pledge to deal with old - age pensions. We understand now that there is no pledge to deal with the question. The Colonial Secretary now says that if it is to be dealt with in the remote future, it can only be dealt with by a scheme of preferential tariffs. That is a different matter; but we are entitled to know from some representative of the Government whether it is to be merely a matter of debate or discussion on platforms, or whether the Government are going to deal with it before they go out.
  *MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I do not know about going out; but we will not deal with it before the dissolution.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: It is not to be dealt with before the dissolution. I am afraid that does not carry us much further. But the Prime Minister has not told us whether this is the policy which the Government is to submit to the country. That is the important matter after all. I agree it is a matter to be discussed thoroughly; but how can it be discussed unless the Government submit a definite proposal? We are told we are to have a preferential tariff with the colonies. We get practically nothing from the colonies except raw material and food. Raw material the right hon. Gentleman will not tax; therefore, there remains only food. When we pressed him whether he was for or against the taxation of food, he indulged in vague generalities, which showed that he had it in his mind that food would eventually be taxed. If that was the case is it not fair that the country should know? What do we get from Canada? We get timber, cheese, butter, cattle and wheat. Are we to tax corn? But the right hon. Gentleman has abandoned that. He is blowing hot and cold. Is the right hon. Gentle man going to put a tax on cattle? I was very glad to hear the speech of the Secretary to the Board of Trade. According to him, cheap food is to be put in the same category as indecent literature.
  MR. BONAR LAW: The hon. Gentleman is mistaken. It is not a question of decency, it is a question of literature which invades British copyright.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: Very well. I should like to know whether it is to be applied to foreign cattle, corn and lumber. Lumber is very important to Canada. Is timber from Sweden and the United States to be taxed? We are entitled to know all these things. It is not a question of talking generally about the Empire. Whenever we come to particulars, we are always told something about the basis of the Empire. Well, we are all for the Empire, certainly. I should like to know who is against the Empire. We may have different views as to the best method of administering the Empire, as we have about education, theology and religion. We may have different views as to religion; but that does not mean that we are irreligious. The same thing applies to the Empire. The Colonial Secretary from time to time has been the instructor of the House on the question of free trade. Twenty years ago, curiously enough, the present Chancellor of the Exchequer—when the Colonial Secretary was holding a different office, and when the Chancellor of the Exchequer was the President of the Board of Trade,—introduced a Motion which rather savoured of protection. He was answered by the present Colonial Secretary, who made a most persuasive speech and converted the right hon. Gentlemen the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the principles of free trade to such an extent that he has been a fairly good and respectable free-trader ever since. It is rather hard on him that he should be lured back into his evil ways by the very missionary who was responsible for his conversion. There are one or two passages in that speech to which I should like to refer. The right hon. Gentleman in that speech spoke of—
  "The new doctrines, fair trade, reciprocity, and retaliation, of which we have heard so much and know so little, and with respect to which we are naturally anxious to have accurate and definite information."
  That was a reasonable position for the right hon. Gentleman to take up, and that is the very reasonable request which we now address by way of the Colonial Secretary to the Prime Minister. The right hon. Gentleman proceeded to use words which had so strong a bearing on

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  the present position that I must ask leave to quote them, not by way of scoring off the Colonial Secretary but because they so well express our own views in regard to the matter under discussion—
  "I had hoped, in view of this debate, that at last we should be able to grasp the phantom which has so long eluded us. But I confess that these expectations have been disappointed, and that even now, after having listened attentively to everything that has fallen from the right hon. Gentleman's side of the House, I am still in the dark as to what they mean, and as to whether they understand their own meaning themselves. It is gratifying, no doubt, to be assured, as we have been by all of them, that they are opposed to protection and in favour of real free trade. But it is difficult for a plain man to reconcile these assurances with the other statements which they have made. We have had expounded to-night several shades in the new heterodoxy, which seems at last to have secured the patronage of the Conservative Party."
  The Prime Minister objects to the word heresy which was used by the right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean. I give up the word "heresy" and adopt the word of the right hon. Gentleman, "heterodoxy." Who would have thought that twenty years later the patron saint of the Conservative Party would have been the right hon. Gentleman the Colonial Secretary? Nothing could be better as a reply to the Government than a reprint of this speech against the Colonial Secretary's present proposals.
  We have had simply vague words and suggestions, and even now the Prime Minister does not tell us what he proposes to do. The right hon. Gentleman talks about a "tendency," and a "contingency," and it is upon words of that kind that he proposes to recast the whole of our fiscal system. Take the case of Germany, our most formidable competitor in Europe. From 1897 to 1900 our trade had increased from £32,000,000 to £38,000,000, and the same may be said with regard to the United States of America. It has been said that it is our business to follow the example of the United States, but does not the Prime Minister know that the trade per head of the population, great as it is, is as nothing compared with the trade per head of the white population of the British Empire. The Prime Minister also forgets another thing, and
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  that is our great shipping trade. It is perfectly true that in the case of France if we show a balance sheet of the imports and exports we seem to be losing money, but 43 per cent. of the tonnage of that trade is carried in British bottoms. We do the carrying trade of the world. Then something was said about Argentina, but nothing more astonished me when I was over there than the fact that the whole country is run by British capital. Great Britain dominates everything and everything is run by British capital and British managers. It is perfectly true that the Germans are selling cheap goods to the Argentine, but they are beginning to understand that if they want good articles they must go to the British firms for them. Instead of depending on these quack remedies, which may catch the unwary, which may appeal to people who are not leaders of thought; instead of misleading them, and perhaps eventually inducing them to bring pressure to bear on Governments to interfere with a system which has produced the greatest trade the world has ever seen, it is time the Prime Minister exercised his responsibility and influence to point out the folly and danger of pursuing a policy of that kind.
  LORD HUGH CECIL: I do not wish to detain the House more than a few moments. I wish to express my very great gratitude to my right hon. friend the First Lord of the Treasury, not only for his exceedingly interesting speech, but also for the still more interesting interruption which he made to the hon. Gentleman opposite when he assured the House that there would be no change in the policy of the Government before the dissolution of Parliament. That certainly removed from the minds of many supporters of the Government a great weight. I cordially agreed with what my right hon. friend said, that nothing could be more narrow-minded than to say that fiscal questions connected with revenue and with import and export duties, questions which we ordinarily call free trade and protection, are to be shut out any more than any other subject from perfectly free discussion. At the same time one

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  cannot help feeling that in the distinction my right hon. friend made there is need of a warning. A heresy is not the same thing as a breach of a scientific law. For many practical purposes a breach of a scientific law is a much more awkward thing than a heresy. It is precisely because I believe that the fundamental propositions which were laid down fifty years ago were propositions of a scientific character, and had relation to abiding principles lying in human nature, and were not, therefore, of a temporary application, that I am so glad to learn that no propositions were to be laid before the House which were alien to those principles. I do not agree with my right hon. friend's interesting observation about the danger of our being shut out altogether from foreign markets, and for this reason. It is obvious that, if there are to be imports into this country, those imports are not for our convenience and benefit alone, but also for the convenience and benefit of the foreign producer. And it is quite clear that if there are to be great imports into this country of many valuable commodities, it can only be, if the mechanism of prices so adjusts itself, that there may be a corresponding amount of exports to the countries which send those goods to us. The conception that foreigners can derive the benefit of a closed market in which they can sell their goods at any value they like, and also can have the enjoyment of our market, is a profound error; and if my right hon. friend would give his attention to the subject he would see that that is not an argument that he can maintain. But I did not rise at the present moment to go into this discussion. I quite recognise that we have before us a period of discussion of a very interesting character relating to matters of political economy. I have no doubt that that matter will be argued on the one side and on the other, and I fully understand what my right hon. friend said, that Members of the Unionist Party, without any question of loyalty being involved, will be at perfect liberty to take the one side or the other.
  But we have to have regard, not only to fiscal, but also to political matters; to the economical necessities of this country as well as to the political benefits of the
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  whole Empire. I feel very strongly, when we have regard to the political side of the question, how strong the case is against altering the present fiscal system. I am unable to understand how we can adjust an elaborate system of tariffs, ostensibly for the benefit of our colonies, without involving ourselves in a series of the most angry and difficult negotiations, which, so far from strengthening the bond which unites us now to our brethren across the seas, would tend to throw the apple of discord amongst us, and therefore, from the political not less than from the fiscal point of view, would be a profound mistake. Let me say that I join most heartily in desiring to see the colonies drawn more closely to the mother country, and I resent as warmly as any human being can resent, the attitude which the German Government have adopted in regard to Canadian preferential duties. We do not for a moment range ourselves on the side of the hon. Member for the Carnarvon Boroughs, whose zeal for the Empire is less only than his zeal for Church schools. We remember, with heartfelt gratitude, the sacrifices and the loyalty of the colonies in the late war. Indeed, loyalty is hardly the phrase. We do not speak of Devonshire or Cornwall as being loyal, and the time is past, I hope, in which it is necessary to speak of Canada or Australia as being loyal to this country. We are united by the warmest bonds of attachment, and I hope we may long remain so. But I do not believe, and history goes to disprove the theory, that a fiscal arrangement should precede a political arrangement. On the contrary, I believe that a political arrangement ought to precede any fiscal arrangement that may be possible. Personally, I cannot conceive of any fiscal arrangement which it would be wise and proper to extend to the whole Empire except that system of free trade which has been so beneficial to the United Kingdom. I am sure the statesmen of Canada and Australia are most profoundly mistaken; they are under the influence of industries which have grown up under a protectionist system; they are leading their great communities along a false path, and the mother country cannot do them a greater service than that of

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  constantly reminding them that our abundant prosperity arises out of a wise fiscal system. But whatever the fiscal system may be, political unity is the first question, and though it is exceedingly difficult—difficult by reason of geographical considerations, and also by reason of the peculiar character of the British Constitution—the organ of Government is so diffused, its whereabouts is really so uncertain, nobody knows whether it is in the House of Commons, in the Cabinet, in the Crown, or in the House of Lords—but though it is so exceedingly difficult to amend the Constitution by bringing in colonial representatives or by any other arrangement, nevertheless it is to that side of the problem rather than the fiscal side we ought to direct our minds. If it is a question of sentiment, if fiscal union is supposed to be a valuable method of fostering warm sentiments between the mother country and the colonies, or between the colonies and the mother country, it is superfluous, because those sentiments could not be warmer than they are to-day. If all that was wanted was that we should be sincerely attached to our colonies, and that our colonies should be sincerely attached to us, federal union would be achieved to-morrow.
  With regard to the very real grievance which Canada may feel against Germany, I cannot help thinking that there are many ways besides fiscal measures of expressing our resentment at any ill-treatment to which our colonies may be subjected. I think there may be opportunities in the diplomatic sphere. The friendship of this country is an asset, and foreign statesmen ought to understand that that friendship cannot be more profoundly alienated than by wrong done or insult offered to any of our colonies, or more effectually conciliated than by those colonies being treated in a manner which we believe to be fair and right. We ought to resent, and the British people do resent, anything in the nature of a slight upon Canada or Australia more deeply than they would resent a slight upon themselves. The feeling towards the colonies which now animates the British people is of so warm a character that every foreign statesman ought to bear in mind that we should resent anything done against our kinsmen across the sea not less, but more than we resent anything
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  done against ourselves. We are not, politically speaking, an ephemeral people. In 1884–5 Khartoum fell. It made a profound impression at the time, but the impression appeared to pass away. Nobody spoke of the loss we had sustained or the ignominy we had undergone. But after the battle of Omdurman it was seen how profound an impression had been made; there was an astonishing outburst of public feeling, audit was understood how grateful the British people can be to have an opportunity of wiping out old grievances and paying off old scores. The same was true with regard to South Africa. Twenty years elapsed between the wrong done and the war, but it was not forgotten, and experienced politicians were amazed at the depth of feeling that was elicited when the opportunity came to wipe out that grievance. As it was in these matters, so it will be in respect of any wrong or insult which foreign nations may do or offer to our colonies. Ten years hence it will not be forgotten. Supposing there be a Continental crisis or some occasion on which the friendship of this country is of importance to Germany, it will not be forgotten if Germany has not treated one of our colonies as we consider it ought to have been treated. These considerations cannot be publicly stated by Ministers of the Crown, but they can and ought to be brought home to the minds of statesmen on the Continent, and I cannot but believe that, without any question of fiscal re-adjustment, they will suffice to protect us and our colonies against what we consider to be ill-treatment.
  In discussing this question let us on all sides speak our minds without heat and with perfect frankness and candour. Let those of us who sit on this side, who are members of a great historic constitutional Party, not be afraid to utter the beliefs we have long held, which the Party to which we belong have entertained for fifty years, and which we have been accustomed to associate—and which all the evidence goes to justify us in associating—with the abounding prosperity of our country. Let us speak our minds frankly, and urge our view, whether it be a right or a wrong view, at every opportunity that may offer, and just as the Finance Bill, which I think a great majority of the Party will support with unfaltering voice and step when it is

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  brought before us, is in perfect conformity, as the Budgets of the last fifty years have been, with that fiscal theory which we are accustomed to call free trade, so I hope the Budgets for fifty years to come may in the same way conform to what has done so much good to the country, and is, I am persuaded, for the truest Imperial interests of the future.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I think we must all have felt that there is a certain unreality about this debate, because it is being carried on in the prospect and expectation of a still greater debate. Notice has been given on behalf of the Party opposite, and on behalf of the Leaders of that Party, for a discussion on this identical subject, to take place on the Second Reading of the Finance Bill. Therefore, I suppose we must assume that the present is only an affair of scouts, and that hon. Gentlemen on the other side who have addressed us hitherto have been acting on behalf of the Leaders of the Party, as spies in a sort of military reconnaissance. [OPPOSITION Cries of "No!"] Yes, spies—I use the word only in a military sense—as part of a reconnaissance to find out what are the weak points in our position. That, as I say, prevents this debate from assuming the importance which the subject demands. But for my part, I should not think it wasted if it had only produced the speech to which we have just listened—the very interesting and very moderate, and very suggestive speech of my noble friend the Member for Greenwich. I would like to make one or two remarks about that speech. I think my noble friend has fallen into the error, which seems to me to have been the mistake made by everybody who has spoken in this debate except the Prime Minister, of supposing that a new policy has been proposed to the country, involving at a stroke an entire and absolute reversal of the whole of the fiscal policy of this country. I am absolutely unaware of any such proposal having been made either by myself or by anybody else; and before I sit down I will show how very much more limited is the suggestion which not for the first time, but on several occasions during the last five or six years, I have put before
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  the country. A second statement of my noble friend was to the effect that we were not hastily to deal with the fundamental propositions of that great historic doctrine which, in his judgment, had in its practical application done so much for the prosperity of the country—the doctrine of free trade. But my noble friend failed, as everyone else has failed, to tell us what he means by free trade. It is perfectly clear that everything depends on the definition. We may quarrel to the end of time unless in the first instance we come to some sort of conclusion as to our terminology. I have always understood that the definition on which Mr. Cobden himself relied was that free trade was to bring about the free interchange of commodities at their natural prices. With regard to the definition given by my noble friend, it will not be interfered with by me nor, I think, by any of my right hon. friends on this side of the House. We are perfectly content to accept interchange of commodities at their natural price, and I think we may go further with regard to that definition and its strict application. But in our opinion there are certain deviations from this doctrine of free trade which we say necessitate the careful and, in a sense, the immediate attention of the country and of this House.
  My noble friend, in appealing to the Party behind him, alluded very naturally and rightly to what he called the traditions of the historic Party with which he is connected, and sought to identify the Conservative Party with the doctrines of free trade. I do not know that that could be wholly sustained, though no doubt Sir Robert Peel claimed to be a Conservative when he introduced free trade. But, at all events, my noble friend was justified in saying that, for a very long period—more than a generation—that fundamental doctrine has been adopted by the Party to which he belongs. That is not inconsistent with anything I have said in the speech which has formed the text of this debate, and which it has been to me somewhat of a surprise to find has aroused exceptional attention. There is nothing in it except the rhetoric to which the hon. Member for Carnarvon alluded so gracefully, which no doubt differs in

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  his case and mine and other orators—with the exception of the difference in rhetoric there is nothing in it which was not precisely the same as the speeches which have been delivered on more than one occasion by the late Prime Minister, calling attention to exactly the same dangers for which I ask consideration. Nor does it differ from the speeches made by my right hon. friend the Prime Minister in reply to the deputation which waited upon him in the Albert Hall in reference to the Corn Duty. Nor does it differ from the speeches that I have made myself on the subject for the last four or five years. However, I find that this greater interest is caused by an obiter dictum of mine to the effect that it was quite possible that the issue at the next General Election would not be the issue that some hon. Gentlemen have anticipated, but that it may be in connection with this very great and, in my opinion, more important subject. What does the Opposition want to get out of this debate? If I am to judge from the speeches made, they want to know whether the Prime Minister and myself are in sharp disagreement. They have had the answer, and I do not know whether it is at all what they expected. I wish, however, to say in order that there may be no mistake as to my part in the matter, that I agree with every single word that fell from my right hon. friend. As far as I know there is no difference whatever of principle between us in reference to this question. Well, the hon. Member for Carnarvon, in a speech which really would have been humorous if it had been a little more good-natured, asked whether this subject was to be discussed as a debating society matter, and he made a humorous allusion to the Colonial Institute and other associations which discuss questions which are not in any sense immediately practical or in regard to which theories have to be considered. I answer that question in the negative. I do not think that a discussion to which we invite the House and the country is a debating society discussion. It is much too serious a matter for that, as the hon. Member will yet find out. It will not lend itself to the very light treatment which he has given it. Although nothing has been suggested in the nature of an
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  entire reversal of the fiscal policy of this country, yet undoubtedly there will have to be a new mandate given to the Government if the suggestions which I have thrown out are to be carried into practical effect; and that new mandate will involve many considerations of the utmost importance, affecting not merely the prosperity of the country, not merely the general question of the wealth of the country, but going deep into the condition of the working classes and their interests. And therefore, I do hope that in the great debate we are anticipating the subject will be treated as my noble friend has treated it, with all the seriousness which it deserves. The hon. Member for Carnarvon wishes to know whether the question will be raised at the dissolution. Sufficient unto the day. In the meantime he, as well as others, will have to discuss the subject in the country. In regard to that, as far as I am concerned, I will do everything which my limited power will permit to bring the question in all its bearings before the people of this country.
  MR. LOUGH: What question?
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not in the least object to the curiosity of the hon. Member, but he need not be in such a hurry. In the course of the debate somebody asked for a plan If by "a plan" he means a detailed scheme of some new tariff or some new fiscal arrangement or reciprocity treaty, nothing of the kind can be produced at the present moment; and that is not the question I have raised, or which has been raised by the late or the present Prime Minister. What we raise in effect is a principle. It is a question which we put to the people in this country. In my speech, if I may be permitted to refer to it, I called attention in the first place to what I considered the opportunity existing at the present time, and the importance of seizing the opportunity of making preferential arrangements in the nature of a reciprocity agreement with our colonies. [An HON. MEMBER: At the present time?] Yes, but that does not mean this week. And, in the second place, I called attention

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  to the fact that under our existing system we are helpless and totally impotent to bring any influence to bear on foreign countries if they attack our colonies, or if they attack us in any manner which we consider would be unfair or would seriously endanger our industries. As long as we can only say to them, as we did in 1902 to the Colonial Premiers, that what you propose is against the fiscal system of this country, so long we have no weapon in our hands and we cannot meet the attacks upon our colonies or the attacks upon ourselves, which are already serious and which may become much more serious. Now these are the two points which I have brought before the country; and the question which I asked and on which I invited discussion was, "Are you determined to maintain your interpretation of free trade with such severity that you refuse to give us power to meet these cases?" If so—if that is the answer of the country—then let us announce that answer to our colonies; for nothing could be worse than to leave them in doubt. Let us say then, to our colonies, "No matter what you are prepared to do for us, no matter how much consideration you will give to our produce, no matter how largely you are prepared to approach free trade between the different parts of the British Empire, it is no use your coming to us asking for anything in the nature of return because our fiscal system, strictly determined by the mandate of the constituencies will not allow us to give you anything." In the second place, we might say, "If you want to do any service to us which is likely to arouse any kind of animosity or opposition on the part of a foreign country, we are bound to tell you that we cannot help you. There is nothing that we can do to bring that foreign country to its bearings, and to secure the defence of your interests."
  My noble friend said, in very eloquent terms, that no one would resent, or does resent, more than he does the action which has been taken by Germany in regard to the case of Canada. Let me point out—and I regret if there should be any invidious reference to Germany—but I am obliged to refer to Germany, as Germany is the
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  only country which has taken hostile notice of these preferential arrangements with Canada. Neither France, nor Russia, nor the United States have taken objection, but Germany alone has penalised Canada to the extent of a very large additional duty. Why? Because Canada has freely and voluntarily given, to English products this preferential treatment. My noble friend thinks, apparently, it is sufficient to say that we are a people who remember for a long period, and that some day or other we shall catch Germany in a hole. That is essentially my noble friend's remarks. That may be very good; but does he think that Canada is likely to be satisfied with that? What has happened? Canada gave us this preference five years ago, and for five years she has been penalised. We have been bearing hot resentment in our bosom. Much good that does to Canada; and we are to go on bearing it for the time which elapsed between the death of Gordon and the final conquest of the Soudan. Whatever else that may be, it is not business. Supposing that we had, in consequence of the decision of the people of this country, to make that statement to our colonies (of course all these would be matters to be presented to the people), I could prophesy and I could express my opinion, but I cannot ask anyone to accept it who does not place confidence in my judgment in such matters. It is my honest opinion, which I felt bound to bring to the notice of the country, that if you make that reply to your colonies you must, in the first place, give up all hope whatever of anything in the nature of closer fiscal relations with them; and, in the second place, in the absence of that closer fiscal relationship you must abandon all idea of securing closer political relationship. If you have neither closer fiscal relationship nor closer political relationship, then I continue of the same opinion which I expressed at Birmingham—that a united Empire will be beyond the bounds of possibility. It is because it is of immense importance that I ask the House to join eagerly in the discussion to which I invite them. My noble friend says that he does not see that it would be advisable to commence progress towards a closer union with the colonies by taking the fiscal union

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  first. Well, all I can say is that the great example of the world is altogether opposed to the conclusion of my noble friend. How was the union of Germany effected? The union of Germany was effected in the first instance by a Zollverein. [Cries of "No, no."] I maintain that position. At all events that is my opinion. It could not have been achieved without a Zollverein. Of course the processes of blood and iron have contributed, and are contributing, to weld it together. These are not processes which I suppose my noble friend would suggest to use in the case of our self-governing colonies.
  LORD HUGH CECIL: What about England and Scotland?
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I am prepared to admit that case, but I consider that it is irrelevant to my argument. Now I have said that this matter must come before the people of this country, and they will have to give an answer. They will give an answer, I am perfectly certain, for or against in no mistakeable terms. Hon. Members opposite think the answer will be given in opposition to any change, and that therefore the raising of this question will be to them of great advantage. Under these circumstances I am sure they will be grateful to me for the service I have rendered to them. All I can say is that I will make no electoral prophecy at the present time, but I can say that I have generally found the prophecies of the other side to be wrong. Therefore I do not contradict them or set up any alternative prophecy. I am bound to consider the possibility, at any rate, that the views of the nation may be in favour of some such change as is the subject of this discussion. Now in that event when we have got a mandate then will be time to produce the plan. Everybody knows that a plan in the sense of a definite and complete scheme is absolutely impossible until we know a great deal of the matters into which we have still to inquire, and into which we cannot inquire profitably or advantageously unless we know that we have got the country behind us.
  Suppose we have the authority of the nation to enter on the consideration of the subject, the first thing we have to
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  do is to go to the colonies. Now, nothing would be worse than to negotiate with the colonies, and probably come to an agreement, and then at the next general election find that the whole idea was repudiated by the country. I can conceive nothing more dangerous to union than that. Therefore, before we begin to negotiate with the colonies, we must have some knowledge of what is the opinion of the people of the country with regard to the principle at stake. Now, the first thing I should do if we get a mandate to carry it out would be to consult the colonies. In that case I should call another conference, representative of the self-governing colonies, and I have not the slightest doubt myself that, as the result, arrangements which we should consider were perfectly fair between the two parties—arrangements, that is to say, which gave us as much as we gave them—could be completed with all the colonies. [Cries of dissent.] That is my opinion, and against that let the House set the opinion of the right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean. I do not know what ground he has for pronouncing beforehand the opinion of Australia as a whole. It is a very difficult thing for him or for me to anticipate beforehand what will be its opinion. I am quite sure that everything will depend upon what we have to offer. It is perfectly certain that we have something to offer them. For instance, the hon. Baronet suggested that we should offer them a preference on wool, and he pointed out that that would not be of the slightest advantage to them. Assuming for the sake of argument that his statement is correct, does he imagine that we should be such fools as to offer the Australian colonies something that would be of no advantage to them, and expect them in return to alter their system and to give up protection in our favour. All this must be a matter of negotiation. My noble friend says, without doubt or hesitation, that if you are going to make these treaties of commerce with the colonies irritation will arise, and that he can conceive nothing more likely to promote disunion. That is an argument against any treaty at all. We must never try to make a treaty with any country, not

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  even with our own children, for fear that in the course of the negotiations we may fail to come to an agreement and that the position may be worse than before. Surely, at least, we may assume as between people of the same race and blood we should begin the negotiations with the most friendly feelings towards one another; and surely we may assume that we shall be able to come to a satisfactory agreement, or at all events to part as good friends as when we met. I see no difficulty in entering on such negotiations. I should not have the slightest fear of any danger arising from them.
  Then there is another thing which we have got to find out. In order that a conference of this kind may thoroughly discuss the matter we must know from our own people not only what they can give but what they want in return. I want to know from every manufacturing district in this country, and I hope I shall learn before long—for I see the Chambers of Commerce are everywhere taking the matter up, and they will give us their assistance in arriving at a conclusion—what particular article or articles of manufacture produced in the district could be much more largely sold if preferential rates were given by the colonies, and also to what extent these preferential rates should go in order to give a substantial advantage. The House will see that all this will necessarily take time, and the claim of hon. Gentlemen opposite that we should, without this information and before we get anything in the nature of an expression of general agreement from the people of this country, put a plan before the House in the shape of a series of draft agreements with all the colonies seems to me to be the height of absurdity, and it would be absolutely impossible to agree to it.
  MR. LOUGH: The right hon. Gentleman should tell us his plan.
  MR. WINSTON CHURCHILL: The right hon. Gentleman invites us to discuss this matter. How can we discuss the question unless we know, at any rate, the outlines of his scheme.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I have shown to the House pretty clearly I think that nothing in the nature of a complete plan can be put before the country. But it does not require much acumen to see what are the general lines which any arrangement of this kind must follow. [OPPOSITION cries, "What are they?"] It is hardly necessary for me to explain them, but I will for the benefit of the hon. Member for West Islington who has not been able to gather them for himself. I have said that I conceive it to be possible—I will put it no higher than that—to make preferential arrangements with the colonies which would be beneficial to both sides. But if there is reciprocal preference it is clear that we must have not only something to receive, but something to give. It is clear, also, that what we have to give must be given on some great product of the colony, and as the hon. Member for Carnarvon with greater perspicacity than the hon. Member for West Islington has perceived the preference must be given either on raw material, or on food, or on both. That is pretty simple I should have thought. I will go a step further. When the hon. Member for Carnarvon attributed certain statements to me I was compelled to say I did not accept his quotations as correct. He said that I was in favour of taxing raw materials and food. Of course the hon. Member had no right whatever from anything I have said to say anything of that sort. In my opinion—and this is only a personal opinion and do not let me be told afterwards that I am now laying down some law of the Medes and Persians, that is never to be altered and by which I am in future to be governed, because as I have said these inquiries are to be instituted which may throw further light on the subject. I quite understand that the allusion to further light on the subject is one which hon. Gentlemen opposite will be glad to make light of.
  MR. LAWSON WALTON; Did not the Prime Minister tell us that it was not proposed to levy any impost either on raw materials or on food?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Certainly not.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: No, the Prime Minister did not say that. What I

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  was going to say when I was stopped is that without binding myself for all time—[OPPOSITION laughter.] I must say this is extremely discourteous. I say that without binding myself for all time or without shutting my eyes to possible further fresh information, so far as I can see, it will not be necessary to put any tax at all on raw material, and that for obvious reasons. It will be very difficult to choose the raw materials which would be suitable to this purpose. If a tax were put on raw materials it would have to be accompanied by drawbacks on the finished exports, and although that is not at all impossible it would be a complicated way of dealing with a matter which could be dealt with much more simply. Therefore, we come to this. If you are to give a preference to the Colonies—I do not say that you are—you must put a tax on food. [OPPOSITION Cheers.] I make hon. Gentlemen opposite a present of that. I am prepared to go into any workman's house, or any labourer's house, or to address meetings of workmen or labourers, and taking certain hypothetical calculations—for instance that there was to be 1s. or 2s. put on corn, and making assumptions of that kind, I am prepared to say to them, "Now this policy if it is carried out will cost you so much a week more than you are paying at present for your food." I set aside altogether any economical question as to whether they would or would not have to pay the whole of the duty that might be imposed. "I will assume for the sake of my argument that you pay every penny of the duty, and, having assumed that, I will tell you what the cost will be. I know how many loaves you consume; I know how much meat you eat; I know what you take of this, that, and the other on which it may be proposed to put a duty, and I will give you a table from which you can tell for yourself how much extra wages you must get in order to cover the extra expense of living." And that is the argument to which hon. Gentlemen opposite will have to give their serious attention. If they can show that the whole of this business will mean greater cost of living to the working men and no increase of income, well, Sir, I have not the least doubt whatever that all their
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  most optimistic prophecies will come true. But if I can show that in return for what I ask I will give more than I take, then, poorly as they may think of my judgment, I may still have a chance.
  That also suggests another inference that has been made by hon. Members: opposite. Suppose you put a duty, not for the purpose of protection—not at all—but I for the purpose of gaining these advantages—having something to give to your colonies—suppose you put a duty on these products, I suppose it will produce a very large revenue. We do not want that revenue for the normal expenditure of the country, therefore we shall have a large sum at our disposal. Then to whom shall we give that sum? In the first place, I ask who is going to pay the tax? The working classes are going to pay three-fourths of it, because it is the calculation that in all taxes on consumption the poorer classes pay three-fourths and the well-to-do one-fourth. But the argument would be the same for any other proportion. That being so, according to my mind it is a matter of common justice that the working classes are entitled to every penny of the three-fourths; and I would give them without the slightest hesitation the other one-fourth as well, because I have always held—it has always been part of my speeches on this subject of social reform—that while it would be absolute confiscation to put the cost of social reform wholly on the shoulders of one class, and that the richer class, the minority, yet on the other hand it is fair and right that they should make a contribution in return for the indirect advantages they gain from the great prosperity and contentment of the country. Therefore I should consider that any Government which imposed these duties—in addition to all the collateral advantages to which I have referred—would have a very large sum of money at their disposal, which they ought to and must devote to social reform. That led me to say the other day that old-age pensions or anything else which cost large sums of money, which have hitherto seemed to me to be out of reach of immediate practical politics, would become practicable if this policy were carried out. That is another argument which hon. Gentlemen opposite will have to meet. When I am talking to a

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  working man and asking him to compare advantages and disadvantages, another argument—I tell it you in anticipation—will be, "Not only will you get back any benefits intended entirely and alone for you, but the whole sum you have paid you will get, in addition to the whole of what is paid by the richer classes." That may or may not have any influence on the controversy; but, at all events, the working man, in addition to any direct advantages he may get through increased trade and increased wages, will be enabled to press on the attention of this House a good number of social reforms, which at present cannot be considered with any advantage.
  This is a very large subject. I have said that this tax is not intentionally protective; but I do not want to deny for a moment that incidentally, and so far as it goes, it is protective. That is to say, you cannot put a duty on corn beyond a certain amount. I am getting into economics again. I know that some people contest very strongly how much of a duty is protective or not; but still, I should say it would be generally admitted that, if you were to put a considerable duty on corn, that would be to a certain extent protection for the farmer. Although that is not the intention, I admit that it must be the consequence of the tax. And that will also justify some argument; but it will not be in any case an unmixed evil. There is no doubt whatever that the state of agriculture has been, and is, a very serious question for this country. The continued reduction of our home food supply is a matter which has been found of so much importance as to justify the appointment of a Special Commission; and it is perfectly clear that anything which increases our home food supply would have some advantages which might be set against any disadvantages which accompany protection on articles of food. That is really all I have to say in regard to so much of my speech as referred to the prospect or possibility of preferential rates with our colonies. But there is the second question. How are we to defend our colonies? How are we to operate in the case of Germany, for instance? What have we to say to Germany? We have already made representation after representation to the German Government with reference
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  to the case of Canada, and that Government has not felt itself able to do anything. And I do not see how the German Government can until the German people find out that they cannot wreak vengeance upon Canada without suffering to some extent in their own pocket. But there, again, do not let my noble friend go off with the idea that if I had a mandate to deal with this question I would go to Germany and clap on a big duty on every German product, and make this a protected country to the extent of every import Germany sent here. Not at all. I should go to Germany as a negotiator, and say to her, "If you cannot meet us in this, I am afraid I shall have to put a duty on that." It would not be necessary to affect the whole trade with Germany, or anything like it; and, of course, I should have to consider where I could put these duties with least danger to ourselves, and to bring home most effectively to the German mind the impolicy of their conduct towards Canada.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: You could refuse to collect Germany's debts for the future.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I would remind the hon. Member that Ireland, his own country, has suffered perhaps even more serious injury than England. It has been the commonplace of Irish orators, especially of the Nationalist Party, to say that it was the brutal violence and oppression of this country which imposed free trade upon Ireland, and which, therefore, has caused the destruction of agriculture in Ireland. While England, as a great commercial and industrial country, has benefited, Ireland has suffered out of all proportion. Whether that is true or not, I say incidentally that it is clear this question will be interesting to the constituents of the hon. Member.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I beg to say that when I made an interruption to the right hon. gentleman I offered no opinion on his very interesting suggestions. If you want to placate Germany you ought to reduce your fleet.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I need not elaborate the point. It is absolutely necessary that we should have power to put duties on certain things if we are to retaliate in any way where our colonies are injured by the reprisals of foreign countries. There is only one other point that will have to be considered. Is it not conceivable that we shall have to defend our own trade against unjust competition—not against free exchange of commodities at their natural price, but against something which I believe is absolutely new and to which I am afraid insufficient attention has been given up to the present time? Has the House considered what is the practical working of the great trusts which are now being formed in America, and in Germany, and on the Continent—the enormous aggregations of capital wielded by one man, by a single brain, and which can be brought to bear in the way of destroying a particular industry in this country without running any risk whatever? We are the one open market of the world. We are the one dumping-ground of the world. Now what happens? Let me try to make that clear. Let us suppose a manufacturer sells goods to the extent of £50,000 a year and makes a profit of £5,000. His fixed expenses would be probably £6,000. But now if he can increase his business and sell £100,000 his profits will be not merely £10,000, but they will be added to by the reduction in the fixed expenses on the second £50,000. His profits upon the £100,000, instead of being £10,000, will probably be £15,000; and the result of that is that he can afford to sell, as compared with his previous condition, his second £50,000, not only without profit but at a loss. That is what is happening. In America the manufacturers are making and building up their works, and when there is a boom, as there has been recently, the works are at once increased; and, so long as the home trade will take all the works make, that is a most profitable arrangement for the manufacturers, and no goods come to this country. But the moment the boom is over, if to-morrow, there was a depression, say, in the iron trade, there is not the slightest doubt—it has been stated publicly by the President of that tremendous Steel and Iron Corporation, and it is actually being
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  done at this moment by the great German Trust—it is perfectly certain that quantities of iron will be put down in this country or the countries we are supplying at a price we cannot possibly contest. Remember that is the issue.
  AN HON. MEMBER: So much the better.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: The hon. Member who is in a different line of business has no objection whatever to see manufacturers ruined. He has no objection whatever, apparently; he says indeed—so much the better. I say this result will occur, that, inasmuch as no manufacturer here can possibly stand a loss of that description for many years together, his business will be ruined and the whole of the capital lost as well as the profit. It is not merely the loss of two or three years profit, but the whole of the capital goes into the scrap-heap. At all events, to my mind it is one of the most serious issues we have to deal with. Of one thing I am perfectly certain. In spite of the hon. Member and of any decision given by the country, if it is raised in the country now, if there should be depression in some of the greatest industries, and this result should follow, nothing will prevent the people of this country from immediately imposing a duty which shall defend against such unfair competition a great and staple industry. Nothing will prevent the people of this country from immediately imposing a duty which shall defend against such unfair competition a great and stable industry. I think I have, at all events, indicated the lines on which my mind is moving and the discussion which I wish to raise—and which I promise the hon. Member I will raise—before the constituencies.
  *MR. LOUGH: The right hon. gentleman has told us that he is in favour of reciprocity and preferential treatment for the colonies. I think the right hon. Gentleman has been excessively candid, and that the House owes him a great debt of gratitude for the full statement he has given to us. The right hon. Gentleman gave us one or two definitions: which sounded very plausible, but only because we did not receive them in a very critical spirit. He asked what free trade was; but we are not talking of

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  free trade, but of a free trade tariff, which is a very different thing. He told us that free trade was the free interchange of commodities at their natural price; but a free trade tariff is something quite different; it means a tariff for the purpose of revenue only, and not for the purpose of protection. We were all delighted to hear the speech of the noble Lord the Member for Greenwich. That speech was perfectly disastrous to the scheme of the right hon. Gentleman. The noble Lord said he hoped that for the next fifty years we would stick to the tariff this country had adopted—a tariff for the purpose of revenue only. For the first time in fifty years a leading Minister of the Crown, supported by the Prime Minister, has declared in favour of a tariff for the purpose of protection. That is a most momentous decision; and some protest ought to be made against it. The Colonial Secretary has been hurried into this decision by his desire to meet the wishes of the colonies. We all join in a spirit of that kind; and I do not think that my hon. friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs was very kindly treated by the noble Lord the Member for Greenwich when he referred to the feeling we all have about the Empire. We love it just as warmly as hon. Gentlemen opposite; and we might be allowed to carry on the discussion without being held up to contumely for the views we hold. I do not think the Colonial Secretary is treating his country very well in the manner in which he is carrying on the discussion. He said that Canada had asked for a preferential duty of a shilling on corn, and that we had not been able to make any reply to that application. That is a most unfair description. We have made a reply. We have taken off the shilling on corn to which Canada objected, and I suggest that that was a very friendly reply.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not think the matter is of the smallest importance; but at the Conference the Colonial Premiers said, "If you give us a drawback on this duty, we will discuss it with you further."
  *MR. LOUGH: I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman; but I think he might in his reply have done much better for this country. We have taken off the
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  shilling duty, and the right hon. Gentleman might have made a better answer than he did. We have taken off the shilling duty; and, to that extent, we have done something to meet Canada. This point exhibits the fallacy which underlies the scheme of the right hon. Gentleman. He told us that Canada gave us in 1898 a preference of 25 per cent.; but the noble Lord the Member for Greenwich made a reply to that. He reminded the House that Canada was not forgetful of her own interests, and that she received a great advantage from this country by making this concession. If the right hon. Gentleman was willing to represent the policy of this country in a good light, he would have put it differently. The object Canada had in view in giving us a preferential tariff was not to benefit us, but to sell her own produce. I find that during the last four years the exports from Canada of butter have increased 110 per cent., of cheese, 50 per cent., of meat, 20 per cent., of hams, 100 per cent., and of apples, 50 per cent. Therefore Canada has had a splendid return from this country for anything she has done in the way of giving fair treatment to our exports. The issue has been fairly stated by the Colonial Secretary. He claims that he will put on duties against Germany. The noble Lord the Member for Greenwich says, let us not get angry with Germany; let us expostulate with, Germany. I am in favour of the policy of the noble Lord; it is more consistent with the traditions of this country than the new fiscal policy of the right hon. Gentleman. I believe we have had this afternoon a more productive debate than we have had for many a long day. The candour of the Colonial Secretary is greatly to be praised. He admitted that his policy meant adopting preferential tariffs against foreign countries. Which is the first country we would strike? The United States. It is from that country that we receive the largest quantity of corn. The United States sends us twice as much food as any other country; and therefore, the first step will open a chasm between us and the United States—the other half of the Anglo-Saxon world. That will be the first of the fundamental follies this country will be led into if we follow this policy. The Prime

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  Minister said that we are getting into a serious condition so far as our exports are concerned. He suggests that it has become difficult to carry on trade with civilised countries. A return recently issued shows that the export trade of this country with such nations is not diminishing. It is growing; and, therefore, there is not the slightest necessity for us to adopt a policy of this kind. The trade returns were never better. What, therefore, is the reason why the Government is going in for this wild campaign? The reason is political; and a word of protest ought to be uttered against it. I believe that, however speciously the Colonial Secretary may clothe his new doctrine, he will not be able to show the people of this country that it will be to their advantage to depart from the traditional policy of free trade.
  MR. WINSTON CHURCHILL: The statement of the Colonial Secretary is one of momentous importance and absorbing interest; and I hope the House will not think me presumptuous if I take the earliest opportunity of saying that I heard it with profound regret. I have read attentively the history of the great Home Rule crisis of 1886; and it seems to me that much injury might have been saved the Liberal Party, if all those who viewed the Home Rule policy of Mr. Gladstone with distrust and suspicion had taken the very earliest opportunity after its inception, of protesting against it in the most emphatic manner. Instead of that, they allowed themselves to slip from point to point; and then, when there was no means of retreat, the Party found itself committed to a policy which for twenty years has hung round its neck like a millstone. But I cannot say the system of preferential tariffs which the Colonial Secretary has advocated this afternoon does or ought to inspire the Conservative Party with enthusiasm and still less the measures which are to carry it to success. It is obvious that we cannot discuss this matter now at great length. These are matters which must be dealt with in the prolonged course of what will be the greatest controversy in the history of our country. But apart altogether from the merits of the question there are two considerations which I would most
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  earnestly submit to the Government and the House of Commons. The first is this: you cannot stop, and the Colonial Secretary will not be able to stop if he desires to, at the simple system of preferential tariffs. He will have to fight a fierce battle in which the manufacturers, fair traders, and agricultural protectionists will be his supporters, and it is perfectly evident that their interests will have to be consulted at every stage. The idea of giving a preference to the colonies in matters which we must in any case tax for revenue, has now been extended to a definite proposal for the taxation of foodstuffs, and although it is perfectly clear that this proposal of protective duties on food will please agriculturists, or, at any rate, will please the bulk of them, what about the working man? And thus you are compelled to take a step forward and include old-age pensions in this scheme. The colonies will be pleased, no doubt, and the working classes may be placated by the promise of old-age pensions. The cost must, therefore, principally fall on the manufacturing fair traders, who will have to pay more for labour, and who will, therefore, lose in neutral markets. They will insist on some tangible return, and the only one possible will be an elaborate system of bounties and duties. This move means a change, not only in historic English Parties, but in the conditions of our public life. The old Conservative Party, with its religious convictions and constitutional principles, will disappear, and a new Party will arise like perhaps the Republican Party of the United States of America—rich, materialist, and secular—whose opinions will turn on tariffs, and who will cause the lobbies to be crowded with the touts of protected industries. What is the cause of this change? Never was the wealth of the country greater, or the trade returns higher, or the loyalty of the colonies more pronounced. Is it that we are tired of these good days? There is no popular demand for this departure. I do not know what popular demand or popular movement the Colonial Secretary with his great popularity and persuasive manners may not be able to excite, but at the present moment there is no demand whatever, and not for the

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  last 100 years has a more surprising departure been suggested.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I merely rise to say that Ireland is the country which more than any other has been injured by free trade. It is perfectly true that the policy of free trade adopted by this country injured it out of all proportion to the other parts of the Empire, and therefore I find no fault with the remarks of the Colonial Secretary, which were historically accurate. I merely rose to say that I think the proper way to deal with Germany if she injures Canada is to refuse to join Germany in the way in which we joined her in the question of Venezuela. I think there will be but one opinion as to the conduct of the Colonial Secretary in raising this question at this time, and that is, that his action is not calculated in any way to strengthen the Government of which he is a Member. What object he can have in raising this question now it is impossible to say, unless it be to wreck his Party.
  MR. HARWOOD: There are one or two facts in relation to the subject of this debate to which I desire to call the attention of the Prime Minister. In the first place, what is the reason for this change of policy? It is quite clear that the condition of the Empire has never been better. Has not the late war revealed a feeling between the colonies and the Empire far in excess of what anybody had imagined? Why, then, disturb that happy relationship? As to the question of trade, who is complaining? Who finds things wrong? The Prime Minister seems to have it in his mind that we are moving towards a difficulty that we are coming to an impasse, and that we must make a new departure. But what are these signs? In every direction our trade is extending, and if any theory was ever justified by results it was the theory of free trade. It has been said that in the North we have made a fetish of free trade. But had any worship answered so well or proved so successful and profitable as the worship of free trade? I do not care to argue the matter as one of abstract theory; I am prepared to defend it as a practical fact.
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  The Under Secretary of the Board of Trade has spoken of our supremacy at the beginning of last century and has asserted that we have not the same supremacy now. But it is not merely a matter of supremacy; it is a matter of the volume of business done, that we regard. I remember the condition of my own town of Bolton at the beginning of our supremacy. For Bolton it was a time of very great distress. That town was then one-third the size it is now. Half the houses were empty, and the Government sent down a Commission to consider how best to cope with this distress. I have heard from my own people who were not among the poorest in those days. Even people of their class did not get white bread more than once or twice a week. Those facts have burned themselves into the minds of the people of the North. The Prime Minister and the Colonial Secretary seemed to be haunted by the question of free trade. The Prime Minister gave us a definition of free trade as a free interchange of commodities at natural prices. We define free trade as being the free reception of all goods coming to our shores. It is all very well to have free trade with other people if they give you free trade in return, but the Prime Minister says we have not that interchange, and therefore we may question the wisdom of the policy. But we will accept a narrower definition of free trade. We are so convinced of the wisdom of free trade for ourselves that we will adhere to it if nobody else gives it. We are prepared to argue the question on the ground that free trade is the free reception of commodities from all countries at their natural price, excepting what charges may be necessary for revenue purposes. It is said that this country is made the dumping ground. All the better. I do not object to the baker and the grocer making my house the dumping ground for their goods; I am extremely glad to have them. It must be borne in mind in these discussions that the case of England cannot be argued on the analogy of the United States or Germany. The United States is a cosmos in itself. We in the North of England are convinced that if the United States had adopted the policy of free trade we should have had a very hard time of it. Great as her prosperity has been it would have been ten times greater had she had a sound fiscal

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  system. Germany has secured her advantage by blending a number of States which previously had separate tariffs. The idea that we should shut out others because they shut us out is nonsense. This is not an abstract matter, and we can surely ask what is the matter. Is our business wrong? The Chancellor of the Exchequer and his predecessor had been astounded at the case with which they could raise revenue. Is our Empire wrong? Everybody acknowledges that never was it in a more successful condition than now. The Prime Minister may appreciate an historical illustration. Why did Athens fall? Because they mixed up fiscal tariffs with political motives. Why did the Empire of Rome break in pieces? For the very same reason. Why is the colonial empire of France a failure? Because of the same mixing up of fiscal and political theories. We do not want to be passionate, but if ever there has been a message to rouse our blood and make us fight this is one. We feel that not only is the welfare and the bread of our people concerned, not only the success of our trade, but also the happy brotherly love of the Empire, which will be displaced by a condition which may break the Empire in pieces.
  MR. PEMBERTON: The Prime Minister has told us that this matter was really only to be discussed in the future, but after the speech of the Colonial Secretary it is impossible not to feel that this programme—if it is a programme—is the programme of the Leaders of the Unionist Party now. Although the Colonial Secretary said it was not necessary to settle this at once, he also said you could not keep the colonies waiting long in a state of uncertainty, and I do not think those two remarks are quite consistent. The conclusion one must come to is that if it is necessary for the future of the Empire, and the closer union of the different parts of the Empire, to have some kind of preferential tariffs, on the Colonial Secretary's own showing that ought to be settled at once, and the issue put before the country. I do not think it possible at present to express any definite opinion on the value of the programme, but I do not wish it to be supposed that all members of the Conservative and
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  Unionist Party, because they have been members of that Party in the past, necessarily approve of this programme. If we are to approach this question in a proper way we must disassociate ourselves from that implication, and many others on this side hold the same view. What the future may bring forth, whether it will justify the adoption of this policy for which there is plenty of argument, I do not know, and at present we do not express any opinion upon it.

  MODERN ART IN IRELAND.
  MR. BOLANDcalled attention to the question of the development of art in Ireland. The present condition of the country was especially suitable for certain steps to be taken. During the last five or six years, largely as a result of the work of the Gaelic League, there had been a remarkable development of the literary and musical instincts of the people, and that work was also having a striking effect on the question of art. He desired to know whether the Government were prepared to help this movement. A number of artists of Irish descent had offered to the nation pictures to the value of £15,000, provided a proper site were given for a gallery of modern art, and wealthy and patriotic citizens were willing on the same condition to contribute money towards the cost of such a gallery. Hitherto the development of art had been greatly handicapped by the unfortunate position in which the school of art was placed. The Royal Hibernian Academy lay on the northern side of the city, which was practically a residential quarter no longer, and unless the Royal Hibernian Academy buildings were placed on a more suitable site it would be impossible properly to carry on the cultivation of art in Ireland. Could not the Government promise to grant suitable sites for these two buildings? All Irishmen naturally desired that the artistic development of Ireland should proceed on national lines, they recognised that it could not be done on narrow principles. Art had an international basis, and if their art students were to keep up with those of other nations it was necessary that they should have the best art brought to their doors. A collection of the works of the best modern artists was absolutely essential if any real progress was to be

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  made, and he understood the Dublin Corporation were willing to assist in this direction if only a site were provided. Irish students ought not to be forced to go abroad to lay the proper foundations of artistic culture, and he sincerely hoped what was really the only suitable site would be granted by the Government. Unless the present opportunity were availed of it would probably pass away for ever. He therefore entreated the Government to see whether in connection with the Dublin Public Offices Bill they could not arrange to set aside the small site necessary for the two purposes he had named.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. ELLIOT,)was afraid he could not add much to his remarks of the previous day. He deeply sympathised with the desires of the hon. Member. All would be prepared to do what they could to assist with the development and encouragement of art in Ireland. At the same time it had to be remembered that the Bill to which the hon. Member had referred only contemplated the provision of public offices in Dublin, and the erection of buildings for the Royal College of Science. For those purposes a large expenditure of money was necessary; the amount had been fixed, and after careful consideration the Treasury had come to the conclusion it was not at present in a position to make a further advance.
  MR. BOLANDsaid he was not asking that there should be any advance under the Bill, but that the site should be allocated in a slightly different way. It would be possible on the large site in Dublin to put a modern gallery. If only some promise were given that some part of the site would be given up for the Royal Hibernian Academy and a gallery of modern art, he should be quite satisfied.
  MR. ELLIOTsaid he was not now in a position to make any promise, but the
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  question could be considered before the Committee. He had great sympathy with the objects of the hon. Member, but he could not see his way to give any definite pledge.

  THE WESTERN HIGHLANDS OF SCOTLAND.
  *MR. WEIRsaid he desired to call the attention of the House to the increasing extension of deer forests in the Highlands of Scotland. As the leases of the sheep farms ran out instead of the land being placed at the disposal of the people for cultivation and grazing these farms were being turned into deer forests. What had the Congested Districts Board done to place these lands at the disposal of the people? There was abundance of land to be obtained, as was clearly shown by the Reports of the Royal Com missions. Was it the intention of the Government to act on those Reports and place at the disposal of the people some of those lands? Compulsory powers ought to be given to the Congested Districts Board, and until they were obtained there would be no satisfactory settlement of the Highland Land Question. Perhaps there was more congestion in the Island of Lewis than in any other part of the Highlands of Scotland. He was sorry to detain hon. Members, but if the Scottish Office did its part it would be unnecessary for him to do so. The Government ought to take some action and look into these matters and not ignore the subject simply because it was a Highland question. During the late war the Highlands sent large numbers of soldiers to South Africa. Surely the Highland people were entitled to better treatment. If he could get a promise that the question would be dealt with on the lines of the Irish Land Bill he would be satisfied. Not long ago he asked the Secretary for Scotland by a Question in this House if the Scottish Office would arrange for an exhibition of home-spun tweeds, and was told in reply that if he would make all the necessary arrangements himself and

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  take the initiative something might be done. He should like to know what the officials of the Scottish Office and the Congested Districts Board were paid for. Arrangements ought to be made for providing hospital accommodation in the Island of Lewis for the reception of cases of typhus and typhoid, the miserable homes of the patients being unsuitable for their proper treatment and isolation. He complained that it was difficult to find the officials at the Local Government Board Offices in Edinburgh when making a personal call relative to such matters. His experience was to find the office doors locked. In regard to sanitary matters it was necessary that something should be done to remedy the shockingly insanitary condition of the dwellings. The law in many parts of the congested area was absolutely ignored. He suggested that an inspector should be sent down to insist upon the houses being kept in a sanitary state. Referring to the question of vaccination, he said the supply of lymph for Scotland was most unsatisfactory. Human lymph, which was prohibited in England, was constantly used in Scotland notwithstanding its condemnation by the Royal Commission on Vaccination. He called attention to the practice of appointing medical officers of health who had not obtained the public health diploma, and suggested that those who received such appointments should hold the diploma, as that fact would afford some guarantee that they understood the work they had to perform.
  *THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. SCOTT DICKSON,): I am afraid that at this hour of the evening it is hardly
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  possible to enter into the details of the matters to which the hon. Member has referred. I think it is perhaps the less necessary to do so when one remembers that a great many of the questions the hon. Member has touched upon were really matters which were discussed just this month last year, so that there has not been much room for a reversal of the policy which was then stated by my hon. and learned friend the Lord Advocate. The hon. Gentleman has referred to an important fact, namely, the visit of the Secretary for Scotland to the West High-lands. I am sure that is likely to result in benefit both in the administration of the law and in promoting the interest which the hon. Member has at heart. I would remind him, however, that in regard to the providing of land in connection with the administration of the Congested Districts Board, as has been more than once pointed out land is only valuable to those who are able to make use of it. I think that the policy of the Government in regard to that matter has been one in which the old Scotch proverb becomes true, "The more haste the less speed." The desire of those who are entrusted with the administration of the law is that as much progress should be made in the matter as is consistent with the effective securing of the purpose in view. The hon. Member is aware that some property has been acquired, and the Government are in hope that further progress will be made in that direction, but I doubt exceedingly whether the giving to the Congested Districts Board compulsory powers would do much to promote the object to which the hon. Gentleman has referred. With regard to the Local Government Board, I am sorry that the

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  hon. Gentleman has been so unfortunate when visiting the offices in Edinburgh. I have been more lucky when I have been there.
  *MR. WEIR: They knew you were coming.
  *MR. SCOTT DICKSON: As to the provision of hospitals I, am aware that that matter is receiving the attention of the Local Government Board, and they are doing a great deal to secure that the provision of hospitals all over the country should be carried on more rapidly than hitherto. The securing of medical officers of health with the public health diploma is not a matter in regard to which the Local Government Board can possibly do much, because so much depends on the pecuniary inducements offered to medical men in the different localities, and these are often not such as to provide much temptation to them to obtain the diploma. The only other matter referred to by the hon. Gentleman was with regard to the provision of vaccine lymph. I would ask him to allow me to refer him to what the Secretary for Scotland said a few weeks ago in Edinburgh, at a meeting where the matter was considered. The Secretary for Scotland explained what was being done in this matter, and showed that the question was one which was receiving attention, and which really had been put on a footing which left nothing to be desired in that respect. With regard to the question of land, the policy of the Government remains as it has been, to carry out the settlement of the people on the land as rapidly as the means at their disposal will allow.

  FISCAL POLICY OF THE COUNTRY.
  MR LABOUCHERE: Before we separate for the holidays, perhaps the Prime Minister will gratify the somewhat legitimate anxiety felt on this side of the House, and answer a question which has the merit that it can be answered by a simple "Yes" or "No." When the right hon. Gentleman spoke I did not quite gather whether his views on fiscal policy were those of the Colonial Secretary, and, indeed, it is not clear that he knew precisely what that policy was. Since then we have had a valuable and interesting speech in which the Colonial Secretary has made his meaning clear. My question is are we to understand that these were the views of the Colonial Secretary in his individual and personal capacity, or were they the views of the Cabinet?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I cannot speak again.

  ACCIDENTS IN MINES.
  MR. MARKHAMsaid he wished to call attention to the necessity of legislation for the prevention of accidents in mines.
  *MR. SPEAKER: This is not an occasion for discussing the necessity of legislation. Acts of administration may be referred to, but the hon. Member cannot proceed to propose legislation.
  Resolved, That this House do now adjourn until Monday, 8th June.—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
  Adjourned at a quarter after Seven o'clock till Monday, 8th June.