§ MR. GRIFFITH BOSCAWENsaid the Instruction he wished to move now was a similar Instruction to that which the House had carried on the previous Bill, and he moved it for exactly the same purpose. He hoped, therefore, that the promoters would agree to accept it. If that course were not taken, he should be obliged to divide the House upon this Motion.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That it be an Instruction to the Committee to omit, in Clause 4, the words "without being required to purchase the same or any easement therein or there under.' "—(Mr. Griffith Boscawen.)
§ MR. COHEN (Islington, E.)said he did not think that these two Bills were exactly on all fours, and even if they were, personally he thought the time had come when the House of Commons should not allow its own business to be conducted by a sort of outside negotiation between those who opposed a Bill and the so-called promoters of a Bill. Personally he wished to say that he had absolutely no interest and very little knowledge of the points dealt with in either the Charing Cross, Euston, and Hampstead Railway Bill, or the City and South London Railway Bill, but he was informed with regard to this Instruction that this was a question upon which the promoters had not absolutely come to terms with those advocating it, and they contended that it differed from the Charing Cross, Euston, and Hampstead Railway Bill, inasmuch as this was a new Bill upon which the sub-soil was not affected in the same way. He wished to say that he had not any desire to pronounce upon the arguments of his hon. friend the Member for Ton bridge, either for or against. All he wished was that the House of Commons, might not allow matters which properly be- 681 longed to the House of Commons, or the Committee upstairs, to be settled by those who were for or against in the Lobby. Let this matter, which was essentially one to be determined after examining the representatives for and against, be settled by a Committee upstairs absolutely uninfluenced by any sordid motive. [An HON. MEMBER: Are we so influenced?] He had not suggested that, and he did not know why his hon. friends seemed to be so concerned about it. The Committee examined this question and decided it upon its merits, and therefore he hoped the House would not adopt this Instruction.
§ MR. GRIFFITH BOSCAWENsaid his hon. friend suggested that there had been some sort of negotiation in this matter. Might he be allowed to say that there had been no negotiation whatever, and he had not been in any sort of communication with those interested in this Bill. He wished to point out that the two clauses to which he had alluded were absolutely identical in effect in both cases, and inasmuch as the House had agreed to one principle the same applied to the other.
§ MR. JOHN BURNSsaid he thought the hon. Member for Islington's conscience would prick him before the evening was out. He now saw the evil of supporting the previous Bill, for it had carried him further than he really thought it would do. If this matter of the sub-soil had been referred to the Royal Commission they would not have had the hon. Member's speech, and public owners in regard to the sub-soil would have
§ been properly protected. The proper course was that which the hon. Member for Islington tardily admitted, that was, for the House not to recognise the promoters' concession to some gentlemen who represented from an absolutely disinterested point of view a certain principle with regard to the acquisition of private property. The hon. Member was perfectly entitled to put before the Committee this principle, but he thought it was a matter which ought not to be advanced in the way of Instruction upon a Bill like this. The House saw now the error of its ways, and desired to find a way out. The way out of the difficulty was to withdraw the Instruction from the previous Bill and let both Bills unconditionally go either to the Committee upstairs or to the Royal Commission, and have evidence produced of damage done either to private or public properties and let the Committee or the Royal Commission determine the principle and the amount of compensation. But the House had thought fit, against its better judgment, to resolve upon a less excellent course. He was sorry that he was not able to convert the House to the better view. If private property was damaged, and public rights were encroached upon, as they would be if these instructions were carried, the House of Commons must not blame the hon. Member for Battersea, but they must blame those gentlemen who, at the behest of a few politicians, had undermined the rights of property.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 57; Noes, 162. (Division List, No. 29.)
683| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F. | Forster, Henry William | Pym, C. Guy |
| Bagot, Capt.Josceline FitzRoy | Galloway, William Johnson | Ridley, Hon. M. W (Stalybridge) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Gordon Hn. J.E. (Elgin & Nrn) | Round, Rt. Hon. James |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Graham, Henry Robert | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Bignold, Arthur | Gretton, John | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Groves, James Grimble | Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew) |
| Butcher, John George | Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashfd) | Skewes-Cox, Thomas |
| Carson, Rt, Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Howard, J. (Midd., Tott'ham) | Stock, James Henry |
| Charrington, Spencer | Jebb, Sir Richard Claver house | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Lambton, Hon. Fredk. Wm. | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Clive, Captain Percy A. | Lawson, John Grant | Valentia, Viscount |
| Cochrano, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks.) |
| Colston, Chas. Edw H. Athole | M'Calmont, Colonel James | |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | |
| Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Myers, William Henry | TELLERS FOR THE AYES- |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Ed. | Pease, H. Pike (Darlington) | Mr. Griffith Boscawen and |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Mr. Vicary Gibbs. |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Pretyman, Ernest George | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tyd) | Rea, Russell |
| Allan, Sir William (Gateshead) | Harmsworth. R. Leicester | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Allen, Chas. P. (Glos., Stroud) | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Allhusen, Aug. Henry Eden | Hayden, John Patrick | Remnant, Jas. Farquharson |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Helder, Augustus | Ridley, S. F. (Bethnal Green) |
| Anstruther, H. T. | Helme, Norval Watson | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H. | Robertson, H. (Hackney) |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Hoare, Sir Samuel | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Arrol, Sir William | Horner, Frederick William | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
| Aubrey-Fletcher, Kb. Hn. Sir H. | Hudson. George Bickersteth | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Joicey, Sir James | Samuel, Herbt. L. (Cleveland) |
| Balfour, Rt, Hn. G. W. (Leeds) | Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Joyce, Michael | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| Bell, Richard | Kearley, Hudson E. | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Bigwood, James | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. | Seely, Maj. J.E.B. (Isle of Wight |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Kitson, Sir James | Shackleton, David James |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Knowles, Lees | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.) |
| Brigg, John | Law, Andrew Bonar (Gbasgow) | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Lawrence, Sir Jos. (Monm'th) | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Burns, John | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Smith, H.C (North'mb. Tyneside) |
| Burt, Thomas | Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington) | Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks.) |
| Caldwell, James | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Spear, John Ward |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Leng, Sir John | Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R. (Northants |
| Cavendish, V C W (Derbysh.) | Lockie, John | Stevenson, Francis S. |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Collings, Right Hon. Jesse | Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham) | Strachey, Sir Edward |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth) | Sullivan, Donal |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Lundon, W. | Tennant, Harold John |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Maconochie, A. W. | Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.) |
| Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark) | M'Crae, George | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Markham, Arthur Basil | Tomkinson, James |
| Crean, Eugene | Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.) | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. E. M. |
| Cremer, William Randal | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton) | Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.) | Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward |
| Cullinan, J. | More, Robt, Jasper (Shropshire) | Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir W. H. |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Davies, M.Vaughan (Cardign) | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Warner, Thos. Courtenay T. |
| Delany, William | Morrison, James Archibald | Webb, Col. William George |
| Denny, Colonel | Mount, William Arthur | Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts) |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Mowbray, Sir Robt. Gray C. | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Murphy, John | Whiteley, G. (York, W. R.) |
| Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | Murray. Rt Hn A.Graham (Bute) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Duffy, William J. | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Nicholson, William Graham | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Nicol, Donald Ninian | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Durning-Lawrence. Sir Edwin | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, S.) | Wilson, A. S. (York, E. R.) |
| Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Ffrench, Peter | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R. (Bath) |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | O'Dowd, John | Wrightson, Sir Thomas |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard | Wylie, Alexander |
| Flower, Ernest | Pirie, Duncan V. | |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | Platt-Higgins, Frederick | |
| Gardner, Ernest | Power, Patrick Joseph | TELLERS FOR THE NOES- |
| Garfit, William | Randles, John S. | Mr. Cohen and Colonel |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Rankin, Sir James | Lucas. |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Rattigan, Sir William Henry |