Commons Sitting of 18 June 1903

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.

UNOPPOSED PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Midland Railway Bill. Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
South Shields Corporation Bill. As amended, considered; Amendments made; Bill to be read the third time.

UNOPPOSED PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  STANDING ORDERS.
  Ordered, That so much of Standing Order 91 as fixes five as the quorum of the Select Committee on Standing Orders be read and suspended.
  Ordered, That, for the remainder of the session, three be the quorum of the Committee.—(Mr. Halsey.)
  Alexandra Park and Palace [Petition for Bill]. Ordered, That Standing Order 70 be suspended, and that the Examiners have leave to sit and proceed to-morrow.—(Mr. Caldwell.)
  Metropolitan Police Provisional Order Bill. Read the third time and passed.

  THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS.
  The Clerk at the Table informed the House of the unavoidable absence of the Chairman of Ways and Means.
  Hove, Worthing, and District Tramways Bill [Lords]. Report [16th June] from the Select Committee on Standing Orders read.
  Bill to be read a second time.—(Mr. Caldwell.)
  Military Lands Provisional Orders Bill. Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
  Bill to be read the third time To-morrow.
  Local Government Provisional Order (No. 18) Bill. Reported with Amendments [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
  Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.
  Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 7) Bill. Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
  Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.
  Hamilton Burgh Provisional Order Bill. Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
  Bill to be read the third time To-morrow.
  Broughty Ferry Gas Provisional Order Bill. Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
  Bill to be read the third time To-morrow.
  Ulster and Connaught Light Railways Bill; Belfast Water Bill [Lords]; Shepshed Urban District Gas Bill [Lords]; Scunthorpe Urban District Water Bill [Lords]; Southampton Harbour Bill [Lords]. Reported, with Amendments; Reports to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
  Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill. Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Order relating to county of Dublin not confirmed. Remaining Orders confirmed]. [Title Amended]; Report to lie upon the Table.
  Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.
  Croydon and District Electric Tramways Bill. Harrow Road and Paddington Tramways Bill. Reported, with Amendments; Reports to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

  RAILWAY BILLS (GROUP NO. 10.)
  SIR EDWARD STRACHEY reported from the Committee on Group No. 10 of Railway Bills; That, for the convenience of parties, the Committee had adjourned till Monday next, at half past Eleven of the clock.
  Report to lie upon the Table.

  MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
  That they have agreed to—Local Government Provisional Order (Housing of the Working Classes) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill, without Amendment.
  That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to make further provision with respect to the arrangement of Polling Districts for the election of County Councillors." [Polling Districts (County Councils) Bill (Lords).]
  Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to Amend the Law relating to the Arrangement of Polling Districts in Parliamentary Boroughs. [Polling Arrangements (Parliamentary Boroughs) (Lords).]
  And, also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act for incorporating and conferring powers on the Carmarthenshire Electric Power Company." [Carmarthenshire Electric Power Bill (Lords).]
  Carmarthenshire Electric Power Bill [Lords]. Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

PETITIONS.
  BRITISH AND IRISH MEAT PROTECTION BILL.
  Petition from Battersea, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  BURGH POLICE (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petition from Perth, for alteration; to lie upon the Table.
  CHURCH DISCIPLINE BILL.
  Petitions against: from Tottenham; London (two); Manchester; Holborn; Balham; Reading; and Kingston-on-Thames; to lie upon the Table.
  COAL MINES REGULATION BILL.
  Petition from Weig Fawr, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  COTTAGE HOMES BILL.
  Petition from Battersea, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  EMPLOYMENT OF CHILDREN BILL.
  Petition from Edinburgh, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  LAND TRANSFER ACT, 1897.
  Petition from Kensington and other Metropolitan Boroughs, for inquiry into the compulsory system of registration; to lie upon the Table.
  LICENCES RENEWAL AND TRANSFER BILL.
  Petitions against: from Willaston; and Finsbury; to lie upon the Table.
  LICENCES RENEWAL AND TRANSFER BILL, AND LICENSING LAW (COMPENSATION FOR NON-RENEWAL) BILL.
  Petition from London, against; to lie upon the Table.
  LICENSING LAW (COMPENSATION FOR NON-RENEWAL) BILL.
  Petitions against: from Inverurie; Willaston; Clydebank; Lerwick; Finsbury; and High Wycombe; to lie upon the Table.
  LICENSING (SCOTLAND) ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
  Petitions for alteration: from Inverurie; and Dalmarnock; to lie upon the Table.
  MARRIAGE WITH A DECEASED WIFE'S SISTER BILL.
  Petitions against: from London; and Bishop Auckland; to lie upon the Table.
  MERCHANDISE MARKS BILL.
  Petition from Edinburgh, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  PREVENTION OF CORRUPTION BILL.
  Petitions in favour: from Leicester (two); and Alexandria; to lie upon the Table.
  PUBLIC LIBRARIES.
  Two Petitions from Leek, for alteration of Law; to lie upon the Table.
  PURCHASE OF LAND (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petition from Battersea, against; to lie upon the Table.
  SALE OF ADULTERATED BUTTER BILL.
  Petition from Edinburgh, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  TRADE DISPUTES BILL.
  Petition from Weig Fawr, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  EAST INDIA (LOANS RAISED IN INDIA).
  Copy presented, of Return of all Loans raised in India, chargeable on the Revenues of India, outstanding at the commencement of the half-year ending on the 31st March, 1903, etc. [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 210.]
  CRIMINAL PROSECUTIONS (ALLOWANCES) (DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE).
  Copy presented, of Report of the Departmental Committee appointed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department to inquire into the Allowances to Prosecutors and Witnesses in Criminal Prosecutions, with Evidence and Appendices [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  TRUSTEE SAVINGS BANKS.
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 11th June: Mr. Mount]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 211.]
  SUPERANNUATION ACT, 1884.
  Copy presented, of Treasury Minute, dated 12th June, 1903, declaring that Frank Parham, Royal Laboratory, War Office, was appointed without a Civil Service Certificate through inadvertence on the part of the Head of his Department [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  EAST INDIA (INDIA OFFICE, RETIREMENT AT 65).
  Address for "Return of Copy of Minute by the Secretary of State for India, stating the circumstances under which a member of his permanent establishment has been retained in the Service after he has attained the age of sixty-five."—(Secretary Lord George Hamilton.)
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Irish Lights Board—Salaries of Staff.
  COLONEL MCCALMONT: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the discrepancy in the salaries of the clerical staff of the Commissioners of Irish Lights as compared with those of the Trinity House, the minimum of the salaries of first-class clerks in the Trinity House being £50 a year in excess of the maximum of the Irish, and the maximum is £200 in advance, while the annual increment of the Irish scale is only half that of the English, and even 33 per cent. less than that of the English second class; and, if so, whether he will take steps to make inquiries with the view of remedying this state of things.
  (Answered by Mr. Bonar Law.) The Board of Trade are aware that the scales of salaries in the Trinity House and the Office of the Irish Lights Commissioners are not identical. Various applications from the Irish Lights Commissioners on behalf of the members of their staff are before the Department, and these will receive due consideration on their merits.

  Transference of Ancient Wills from Somerset House to the Record Office.
  MR. VICARY GIBBS: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he will consider the advisability of transferring from Somerset House to the Record Office ancient wills which possess only a literary interest, in view of the lack of facilities offered for research in their present situation.
  (Answered by Mr. Elliot.) I am informed that, in view of the terms of Section 66 of the Probate Act of 1857, legislation would be necessary in order to carry out the transfer of such wills to the Record Office; and, after communication with the President of the Probate Division, I do not think that any serious inconvenience is caused to literary searchers by the present arrangements.

  Annual Leave of Customs Assistant Clerks.
  MR. CLAUDE HAY: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he will explain on
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  what grounds the Treasury has refused to accede to the recommendation of the Board of Customs that the annual leave of their assistant clerks engaged upon checking duties should be increased to eighteen days, seeing that in the majority of Government offices assistant clerks are given either eighteen or twenty-one days.
  (Answered by Mr. Elliot.) I must refer the hon. Member to the answer given to his Question of 23rd July last year† by my predecessor in office, which answer was in the following words—"The annual leave of assistant clerks has been fixed at a maximum of fourteen working days, exclusive of bank holidays and the King's birthday, for the Treasury and its subordinate Departments. There is no general Order in Council regulating their leave, but in the opinion of the Treasury it would be highly desirable that other Departments of Government should adopt this scale." I have nothing to add to this answer.

  Election of Income Tax Commissioners.
  MR. J. H. LEWIS: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he will say what steps are now taken to summon the Commissioners of Land Tax to meetings held for the election of Commissioners of Income Tax.
  (Answered by Mr. Elliot.) Vacancies among the Commissioners of Income Tax are supplied from a list of persons qualified to act kept by the Clerk to the Commissioners. When it becomes necessary to renew this list, the Board of Inland Revenue, upon receiving from the clerk a notification to that effect, causes a notice to be inserted in the London Gazette, convening for this purpose a meeting of the Commissioners of Land Tax for the county. A letter is then addressed to the clerk informing him that the notice will be inserted, and a copy of the Gazette containing it sent him in due course. In this letter it is now the practice (adopted in 1901 on the suggestion of the hon. Member and some of his friends), for the Commissioners of Inland Revenue to request the clerk to take the necessary steps to ensure a full attendance by giving notice of the time and place of meeting to all Commissioners of Land Tax residing in or near the
  †See (4) Debates, cxi., 1008.

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  division who are entitled to vote. For this latter purpose a printed circular is supplied by the Board of Inland Revenue if the Clerk to the Commissioners so desire. So far as the Board of Inland Revenue is aware, compliance with the above request is general.

  Telegraph Clerks and Postal Duties.
  MR. BELL: To ask the Post-master-General whether a telegraphist possessing dual qualifications and in receipt of his maximum pay will be called upon periodically to perform duties in the postal department; and whether he will state upon what conditions a telegraphist may cancel the qualifying certificate when he is no longer in receipt of the increment for postal knowledge.
  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.)
  The Question does not admit of an answer being given in general terms. If any individual officer desires information on his own case he should apply through the usual channel.

  Salaries of Telegraph Clerks in the Central Telegraph Office, London.
  MR. CLAUDE HAY: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he will state the number of telegraph clerks in the Central Telegraph Office, London, who are in receipt of £160 per annum; whether he will state the years of service of the senior and junior telegraphists at this point, with the number of men who were transferred from the £160 scale to the £190 scale during the past twelve months.
  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.)
  Three hundred and sixty-seven telegraphists in the Central Telegraph Office are in receipt of £160 per annum. Of this number twenty-nine have been passed over as ineligible for promotion to the class above. The senior of these has had thirty-three years service. The service of the senior telegraphist eligible for promotion is twenty-six years, and of the junior in receipt of £160, 20 years. Twenty-nine men have been promoted to the class of overseers and senior telegraphists during the year ended 17th June.

  Candidates for Posts as Male Learners in the Post Office.
  MR. CLAUDE HAY: To ask the Postmaster General whether he will state the number of candidates who entered for the last open competition for male learners in London with the marks of the highest and lowest successful candidates, and the number of vacancies competed for; will he also state the number of vacancies filled by the last limited competition among messengers, with the marks of the highest and lowest successful candidates.
  (Answered, by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) One hundred and sixty-five candidates competed at the last open competition for male learners in London, held in February, 1903, for forty places. The highest successful candidate obtained 1,646 marks and the lowest 1,334. Fifteen places were reserved for the limited competition among messengers held on the same date, and the highest and lowest marks obtained by the successful candidates were 1,528 and 1,342 respectively.

  Ilford Sorting Office—Sanitary Condition.
  MR. LOUIS SINCLAIR: To ask the Postmaster-General if he can state what has been the result of his inquiry as to the state of the lavatory accommodation and the sanitary condition of the Ilford sorting office.
  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) I have made arrangements for the construction of sanitary conveniences at the temporary sorting office at Ilford; in other respects the sanitary condition of the room is satisfactory.

  Average Cost per annum of Soldiers in India.
  MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSE: To ask the Secretary of State for India what is the cost per annum, respectively, of a private of the cavalry, artillery, and infantry in India.
  (Answered by Secretary Lord George Hamilton.) The full details required for answering the hon. Member's Question are not in my possession, but I will ask the Government of India to supply them.

  Coal Tax—Fraudulent Evasions.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in consequence of the discovery of evasions of the coal tax, any changes are contemplated in connection with the collection of this branch of revenue; and, if so, is he in a position to state the nature of such changes.
  (Answered by Mr. Ritchie.) No such changes are contemplated, but of course the Customs authorities always take precautions against any method of fraudulent evasion which is brought to their notice.

  Corn Tax—Rebates.
  MR. CAWLEY: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, under the Finance Bill, a merchant holding grain and glucose on which together an amount of duty of £25 has been paid will have the same returned, or will he have to prove that he has paid £25 of duty on each article.
  (Answered by Mr. Ritchie.) Stocks of grain and imported glucose must be made the subject of separate claims for rebate under the Finance Bill, and a merchant holding stocks of both will have to prove that he has paid duty of an aggregate amount of not less than £25 in respect of the grain, and excess duty amounting to not less than £25 in respect of the glucose before he will be entitled to rebate.

  Expenditure of Agricultural and Technical Instruction Rate in County Leitrim.
  COLONEL MCCALMONT: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that a special rate of 1d. in the £, amounting to between £500 and £600 a year, has been levied on the county Leitrim for the last three years for the purposes of the Agricultural and Technical Instruction Act, and that less than £100 of these sums has been expended in the county for the purposes of the Act; and, if so, will he say whether steps can be taken to prevent the County Council levying rates from which no benefit is derived.
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  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) A special rate of 1d. in the £ was levied in Leitrim in each of the years mentioned. The expenditure in connection with agricultural schemes in the county for the years 1901 and 1902 amounted to £759 17s. 7d., of which the sum of £338 16s. 9d. was borne by the rates. The estimated expenditure on agricultural schemes in the year 1903 is £992 18s., of which amount £441 6s. will be payable out of the rates. As regards technical instruction in the county, there was no scheme in operation during the session 1901–2, and the actual expenditure under that head was only £7 5s. 6d. For the session 1902–3, the expenditure up to the 14th January, 1903, was £196 3s. 9d. The technical instruction scheme is now in full operation, and the additional liabilities which have accrued since 14th January last, and which probably exceed a total of £300, were to have been discharged at the meeting of the County Committee of agriculture and technical instruction on the 15th instant. The County Council has transferred to the Committee the full local contribution, £150, for the Session 1901–2, and a sum of £50 on account of the Session 1902–3. The Department has accordingly paid its full contribution for 1901–2—viz., £300, and one-third, £100, of its contribution for 1902–3, besides £103 14s. 1d. for equipment, making in all £503 14s. 1d. for technical instruction.

  Construction of a Bridge at Coolavin, County Sligo.
  MR. O'DOWD: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been directed to the resolution of the Sligo County Council dated 9th, May 1903, relative to the construction of a bridge over the Cutt at Cull in Coolavin, county Sligo; and, if so, whether this matter will be considered by the Congested Districts Board, seeing that it concerns the counties of Sligo and Roscommon.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The Resolution has been received and will be considered by the Board at its next meeting.

  Disturbance at Johnstown, Waterford.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that in Johnstown, Waterford, on the 8th inst., two women members of the Salvation Army were attacked in the public street, and that the police present refused to interfere; and, if so, will he state what action, if any, the Government propose to take in the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) No such occurrence took place on the 8th instant. On the 16th May, however, two Members of the Salvation Army were assaulted (but not seriously) by a woman, who has been previously convicted of assault on her neighbours. The police were not present on the occasion, and both of the ladies assaulted have declined to prosecute their assailant.

  Army Officers—Proficiency in Japanese.
  MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSE: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether any monetary reward is given for proficiency in Japanese; and why officers are not permitted to earn rewards for proficiency in Chinese and Japanese after having passed in both languages at the end of a single period of seconded service.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) A reward is given for proficiency in the Japanese language on the same lines as for Chinese. The conditions of the grants include a twelve months residence in the country concerned, and it is not possible for an officer to spend the same twelve months simultaneously in China and Japan.

  Somaliland Operations.
  MR. FULLER: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he has yet received General Manning's Report upon the recent operations in Somaliland; and, if so, whether he has any further information to give to the House.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) I have no further information to give to the House on this subject, but despatches will shortly be published.

  Co-operative Union—Free Advertisements in Army Regulations.
  MR. CHARLES WILSON: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether, before deciding to give free advertisement in the Army Regulations to the Co-operative Union, he will consider the interests of retail grocers.
  MR. MARSHALL HALL: To ask the Secretary of State for War if he has decided to give free advertisements in the Army Regulations to the Co-operative Union; and, if so, whether he will reconsider his decision in view of the advantage that such advertisements will give them over private traders.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) I have explained in a letter to the Grocers' Union that there is no intention of giving in the Army Regulations a free advertisement to the Co-operative Union.

  Naturalisation of Aliens in the Transvaal Colony.
  MR. KEIR HARDIE: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether Ordinance No. 46, Transvaal Colony, and in particular Sub-section 1 of Clause 1 (naturalisation of aliens), has been in any way altered or amended since its promulgation in 1902; and, if so, what is now the period during which aliens must reside in the Transvaal Colony ere they acquire the right to apply for naturalisation.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Chamberlain.) So far as I am aware the ordinance has not been amended.

  Property in the Swaziland Protectorate.
  SIR CUTHBERT QUILTER: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that, although a year has elapsed since the proclamation of peace, the position of those holding property or concessions in the Swaziland Protectorate has not yet been defined, that no property can at present be transferred as the Registry of Deeds has not been reopened; and whether he can state when the necessary arrangements will be completed to put an end to this delay.

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  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Chamberlain.) I regret that there has been unavoidable delay in dealing with these matters, but it has been found necessary to provide by Order in Council for the proper administration of Swaziland. The Order will be issued very soon, and no time will then be lost in setting up the requisite administrative machinery.

  British Trade with the Colonies.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will consider the advisability of inviting the assistance of Colonial Governments in an investigation of the extent to which, in each of the colonies, the produce and manufactures of the colonies have in recent years displaced or are displacing similar British products hitherto imported; and the causes of such displacement, on lines corresponding to the invitation in respect to the inquiry into the displacement of British by foreign imports contained in his despatch of 28th November, 1895.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Chamberlain.) The difficulties of investigating the movement of trade which does not pass through the Custom Houses appear to be insuperable, but the information already in our possession with regard to the exports of British and Irish produce to the colonies shows a large and continuous increase. The yearly average figures for the five-year periods 1876–1880, 1881–1885, 1886–1890, 1891–1895, 1896–1900, are as follows:—£67,455,270, £81,294,831, £81,186,508, £75,168,121, £86,043,165; and the figures for 1902 are £109,028,611.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the further and fuller despatch on the subject of colonial products which might advantageously be exported to the United Kingdom or other parts of the British Empire contemplated in paragraph 7 of his despatch of 28th November, 1895, has been sent to Colonial Governors; and, if so, will a copy of the despatch, with the replies thereto, be laid upon the Table of the House.
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  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Chamberlain.) While the matter was still under consideration the Board of Trade appointed a Committee to consider the whole question of the collection and distribution of commercial intelligence. The Report of that Committee was laid before Parliament in 1898, and resulted in the establishment of the Commercial Intelligence Branch of the Board of Trade, by which such information as that intended to be collected is continuously collected and disseminated.

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  Somaliland.
  MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War what is the number of camels recently purchased in or for Somaliland, and what is the total expenditure to date upon the expedition there; whether he has yet received General Manning's views upon future operations; and whether in that case he will state the intentions of the Government as to those operations.
  CAPTAIN NORTON: I beg also to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can state what reinforcements it is proposed to send from India, and also from this country, to Somaliland, and about what date it is anticipated that these reinforcements are likely to reach General Manning. Also, whether General Manning has now sufficient transport to enable him to relieve Colonel Cobbe, and for how long it is calculated Colonel Cobbe's supply of food will last.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. BRODRICK,): The expenditure up to date on the Somaliland expedition amounts, so far as can be estimated, to about £400,000, as against £500,000 voted in last year's and the present Estimates. The position in Somaliland at present is as follows: On 5th May instructions were sent to General Manning to gather his outlying garrisons together and concentrate them at Bohotle. General Manning estimated that his available transport and provisions would fully

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  enable him to carry out this movement, and we have heard nothing from him to cast doubt on his power to effect the concentration. Meantime the Abyssinian advance to Gerlogubi has caused the Mullah to move to the north-east, and his mounted troops are reported in the neighbourhood of Damot on the route of General Manning's march. Damot is 140 miles from Galadi, and we have no reason to suppose Galadi is threatened. General Manning has not asked for reinforcements, but, as the mortality of camels has been heavy, His Majesty's Government have ordered 1,200 camels to be sent from Aden, of which 700 have reached Berbera, and 1,300 from India, which are due at Berbera next week. Three hundred men of the Hampshire regiment and 300 Indian troops have also been ordered from Aden to Berbera with full transport, and will leave at once, and the Indian Government are holding further reinforcements from India in readiness for despatch if required.
  CAPTAIN NORTON: Has General Manning transport sufficient to enable him to return to his base, and how long may Colonel Cobbe's food supplies be expected to last?
  MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSE: Will the movements of the Mullah from the south-west to the north-east not take the Mullah into British territory; what are the troops available, apart from the garrison of Berbera, for operations in the field, either under General Manning or Colonel Cobbe; and when do the War Office intend to make a light railway to help out the question of transport?
  MR. BRODRICK: We have no reason to suppose that Galadi, which was occupied by Colonel Cobbe, and from which he has since removed, is in any way threatened, and therefore there is no question of his food supply or transport. As to a light railway, that is a question which would require very serious consideration; and we have no reason to suppose at present that the state of the roads would enable the railway to be laid down with rapidity. In any case, it would involve great cost. The House must excuse me from giving exact details of the forces which are available at
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  different points. His Majesty's Government have sent 600 men from Aden because they thought it well to place additional men at Berbera in case they should be required. But no demand has yet been made for reinforcements.
  MR. LAMBERT: Is the War Office in communication with General Manning, or are communications broken? Is General Manning in communication with Colonel Cobbe?
  MR. BRODRICK: According to our last information, General Manning and Colonel Cobbe may be at this moment with one force. But for the last fortnight or three weeks we have had no information from General Manning, as at this moment he is executing his march to Damot in his retirement on Bohotle.
  MR. LAMBERT: Are the communications with General Manning broken?
  MR. BRODRICK: We have direct communication with Colonel Swan at Bohotle, and as soon as he hears from General Manning we shall hear from him.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: Why is the Boer contingent being withdrawn when fresh troops are being sent?
  MR. BRODRICK: They had come to the end of their engagement. They engaged for a certain period, and, having served with excellent results, they have returned to South Africa.

  Woolwich Arsenal Disaster.
  MR. CROOKS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can give the House any information regarding the awful calamity which happened at Woolwich Arsenal this morning, by which it is reported fifteen men have lost their lives, and forty others have been injured.
  MR. BRODRICK: I deeply regret to say that a very serious explosion took place in the lyddite shell-filling rooms, Royal Arsenal, Woolwich, at about 8.15 a.m. to-day. The following is the

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  list of casualties:—Killed: J. Usher, Frank Curren, W. Edwards, C. Adam, A. Swords, Alfred Greenlees, — Pinhorn, G. Case, E. Newton, — Remington, J. T. Larkins (died after admission to hospital). The remains of four men are unrecognised; the following five are missing:— — Morley, S. Johnson, — Herbert, — Marshall, — Connor. Very seriously injured: A. Goldsmith, A. Stevens, F. Stevens. Less seriously injured: — Webb, G. Crofts, A Saunders, F. Smith, W. Wood, D. Gaurd, E. Stevenson, A. Smedley, E. Howell, E. Hammond, H. Wickham, N. G. Titmarsh, J. Waters, J. Hillers. No further detailed information can be given until the Report of the Board of Inquiry, which will be forthwith assembled, has been received.
  CAPTAIN NORTON: Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to see that the families of the men who have been killed do not suffer?
  MR. BRODRICK: Of course I shall be glad to do anything which lies in my power in that direction. Any resources we have under the ordinary rules will be used.

  1st Battalion Royal Irish Rifles.
  MR. SLOAN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the fact that the 1st Battalion of Royal Irish Rifles have been six years on foreign service, he can state when they are likely to return to the Home depôt.
  MR. BRODRICK: As the ordinary tour abroad of an infantry unit is sixteen or seventeen years, this battalion is not likely to return home for some years.
  MR. SLOAN: But did not this battalion suffer severely during the war?
  MR. BRODRICK: I am afraid that the hardships suffered by this battalion were also suffered by the great majority of our battalions in South Africa, and to recall this one would only put a further burden on some other battalion.
  MR. FLYNN: Are these men already tired of serving their country?
  No answer was returned.

  The Dynamite Duty in South Africa.
  MR. MARKHAM: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Government of Sir Gordon Sprigg asked either him or Lord Milner to create a preferential tariff in favour of dynamite manufactured in Cape Colony for use in the Transvaal against British manufacturers; and, if no such communication was received, will he say why this preferential duty was imposed by Lord Milner, seeing outside the Transvaal there is no other dynamite factory in South Africa except that of the De Beers Company.
  The following question also appeared on the Paper—
  MR. MARKHAM: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has sanctioned a coast duty on any manufactured goods consigned to the Transvaal; and, if so, what articles besides dynamite are taxed in this manner; whether, seeing that dynamite manufactured at the De Beers Company's new factory at Cape Town pays no duty when used in the Transvaal, will he say for what reasons this disability has been created against British dynamite manufacturers; and will he lay upon the Table of the House the protests addressed to him by British dynamite manufacturers against this new monopoly granted to the De Beers Company on all dynamite imported by them into the Transvaal.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN,): I propose to answer the two Questions together.
  MR. MARKHAM: On a point of order. If the right hon. Gentleman intends to take that course I will withdraw the second Question.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I shall answer the two. I have no reason to suppose that any request was made by the Cape Government for preferential treatment of Cape dynamite in the Transvaal, and if the hon. Member will refer to Command Paper, 1599, he will see that Article XVII of the Customs

  1309
  Convention gives the Transvaal Government power to make such arrangements as will prevent Cape dynamite from enjoying any preferential treatment within the Transvaal. I stated on Monday last† that the question of taking action under this Article is now under consideration, and that being so I am unable to make any further statement at the present time, and no useful purpose would be served by laying on the Table the protests of British manufacturers to which the hon. Member refers. The hon. Member will find in the Convention itself all information as to the manufactured articles which will be subject to a coast duty when imported into the Transvaal.
  MR. MARKHAM: Is it not the fact that dynamite is now manufactured in Cape Colony and imported into the Transvaal free of duty? Yes or no?
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: If the hon. Member wants further information let him put down a Question.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Is it not the fact that Lord Milner, who has imposed this preferential duty in favour of the De Beers Company, is himself a large owner of shares in the company?
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I believe there is no foundation whatever for that statement.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: And I believe the reverse.

  Native Labour Recruiting for the Transvaal in Central Africa.
  SIR MARK STEWART: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether a recruiting agent has been appointed for the Port Herald district of Central Africa; and, if so, will he state whether he is a member of a firm who three years ago were convicted of cruelty to natives imported from Anguruland, which was fined £250, and their manager banished from the country; and whether
  † See page 943.
  1310
  his remuneration is partly by pay and partly by commission per head of natives recruited.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Lord GRANBORNE,): Mr. Steblecki, well known to His Majesty's Commissioner in British Central Africa as a straightforward man of excellent character and well qualified for the post, has been appointed recruiting agent in the Protectorate for natives going to the Transvaal. He is not a member of the firm referred to. He is employed by the Johannesburg Labour Association, and receives remuneration from them.
  SIR JOHN GORST: Is there any official of the Central African Government who intervenes in this recruiting or who makes representations?
  LORD CRANBORNE: Every recruit has to be recruited in the presence of a magistrate.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: Is there any interpreter to explain to these unfortunate men?
  LORD CRANBORNE: Oh, yes.

  The Kischineff Outrages.
  MR. STUART SAMUEL: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will obtain from a British Consular Officer a Report as to the measures which have been taken to bring to justice the persons responsible for the late outrages on the Jews at Kischineff, and the punishments, if any, inflicted on such persons; and if he will lay the same upon the Table.
  LORD CRANBORNE: His Majesty's Ambassador at St. Petersburg, and His Majesty's Consul-General at Odessa (the nearest place to Kischineff at which a British Consular Officer is stationed) will undoubtedly report all that comes to their knowledge as to the measures taken by the Russian authorities. But the matter shall not be lost sight of.

  1311
  When the Reports are received I hope to be able to give full information to the House.

  Preferential Railway Rates for Foreign Importers.
  MR. FIELD: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he has received any official information to the effect that the carrying companies give preferential rates to foreign importers; whether he will instruct the Railway Department of the Board of Trade to inquire into and report upon this subject.
  THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. BONAR LAW,): The answer to the first part of the hon. Member's Question is in the negative, and I may refer to the reply given by my right hon. friend the President of the Board of Trade on the 19th of last month† to a similar Question addressed to him by the hon. Member for Dundee. The Railway Department of the Board of Trade are at all times prepared to investigate any specific complaints of the nature referred to.

  Free Railway Passes for M.P.'s.
  MR. FIELD: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the fact that the Members of this House give time to the consideration of Railway Bills in Committee, he will endeavour to arrange with the railway companies a system similar to that in force in other countries and the colonies that members of legislatures shall have free passes.
  MR. BONAR LAW: The President of the Board of Trade is not prepared to take any action in the direction suggested.
  MR. FIELD: But will not the right hon. Gentleman take the matter into his consideration?
  MR. BONAR LAW: He has already considered it several times.
  † See (4) Debates, cxxii, 1093.
  MR. FIELD: But is that a reason why he should not consider it again?
  No answer was returned.

  Food and Raw Material produced within the United Kingdom.
  MR. LOUGH: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether any particulars are available as to the quantity of food and raw material produced within the United Kingdom; or whether it is possible for him to give any statement as to the value of the main commodities under these heads produced at home, compared with what we import from foreign countries or the colonies.
  MR. BONAR LAW: There are no official statistics as to the total quantities of food and raw materials of all kinds produced within the United Kingdom. Such particulars as are available respecting the quantities and values of certain classes of food and materials produced are published in the "Agricultural Returns" of the Board of Agriculture and the Home Office Mineral Statistics. The principal statistics are summarised in the Board of Trade Abstract of Labour Statistics.
  MR. LOUGH: Is it not in the power of the Board of Trade to get the statistics?
  MR. BONAR LAW: If the hon. Member will examine the Returns to which I have referred him I think he will find all the information he requires.

  Scottish Education Grants.
  MR. BLACK: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate how many of the schools which will participate in the grants under heads (a), (b), and (c), respectively, of Section 1 of the Minute of the Committee of Council on Education in Scotland, dated 28th May, 1903, are voluntary schools, and how many are public schools.
  THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. SCOTT DICKSON,): I may refer the

  1313
  hon. Member to the answer I gave yesterday to the Member for Northwest Lanark †. In taking the number of schools no distinction was made between public and voluntary schools, and it is impossible without notice to give the numbers separately. Nor would it enable us to say how many public and voluntary schools respectively will qualify for the additional grants during the three months ending on 31st December, 1903.

  Gordon-Bennett Motor Race.
  MR. REMNANT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether His Majesty's troops are to be used to keep the course for the Gordon-Bennett motor race in Ireland; and, if so, on what grounds he has granted the use of the troops for this police duty.
  MR. BRODRICK: There is no intention of using His Majesty's troops to keep the course for the Gordon-Bennett motor race. The civil power have the right to call for the assistance of the troops in case of riot or disturbances, but I am advised that this would not include their use for such purposes as are indicated in the Question. The officer commanding any troops would, of course, be justified in establishing pickets at any place which might be necessary to preserve order among the troops under his command.
  MR. REMNANT: Have not orders been given to the troops to keep themselves in readiness from six o'clock in the morning until three in the afternoon?
  MR. BRODRICK: I am not aware of it. I have consulted the authorities, and have given the hon. Member the answer which I have received.
  MR. FLAVIN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the military have been used in connection with evictions in Ireland?
  [No answer was returned.]
  MR. LEAMY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will say on whom will fall the expenses of the extra
  † See page 1161.
  1314
  police necessary for the protection of the public during the motor race for the Gordon-Bennett cup.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (MR. WYNDHAM,): I am in communication with the Treasury on the subject.
  MR. LEAMY: When may I hope to get an answer? The question is pressing.
  MR. WYNDHAM: At an early date, which I may be able perhaps to indicate in the course of this evening.

  County Sligo Telegraphs.
  MR. O'DOWD: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he has received a Resolution of the Sligo Rural District Council, dated the 2nd instant, relative to the establishment of telegraphic communication between Ballintogher and Callooney, county Sligo; and, if so, whether he will favourably consider the matter.
  THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN,): Yes, Sir, and I am now awaiting a report on the subject from the local officers.

  Irish Railway Rates.
  MR. FIELD: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the rate of a waggon of sheep from Ballyhaunis, county Mayo, to Liverpool is £4 10s., whilst the rate from Claremorris, a station on the same line thirteen miles further from Dublin, is only £4; that such preferential rates exist in Ireland when there is either railway or water competition; and whether he will have inquiries made with the view of inducing the carrying companies to give similar mileage rates from each station.
  MR. BONAR LAW: Representations have been made to the Board of Trade that the rates are as stated by the hon. Member, and the Board are in communication with the Midland and Great Western Railway Company on the subject.

  Irish Railway Rates—Judge Adams' Views.
  MR. EDWARD MITCHELL: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if his

  1315
  attention has been called to a statement made by His Honour Judge Adams, at the recent Limerick quarter sessions, when, at the hearing of some railway cases, his Honour said that no good or prosperity could ever come to Ireland until the whole question of railway rates was considered and re-adjusted in the interest of public requirements, and that Ireland could never be a prosperous country until this was done; and, if so, will he take steps to bring about fair and reasonable railway rates for the benefit of farmers, traders, and others.
  MR. WYNDHAM: At the request of my right hon. friend I will reply to this Question. The Department of Agriculture is constantly investigating questions affecting railway transit and rates, and obtaining information which would prove of utility should it ever be decided to appoint a Committee of Inquiry. The Department does not think, however, that the time has yet arrived for such an inquiry.

  Londonderry Electric Lighting.
  MR. O'DOHERTY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he will explain why the application of the Londonderry County Borough Council to the Treasury, through the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland, for the sum of £35,000 for the purpose of an installation of private electric lighting in the county borough, was refused, seeing that an application for a larger sum for a like purpose was made by the City of Dublin County Borough Council, and was granted by the Treasury.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. ELLIOT,): It has been the recent policy of the Treasury, owing to their heavy borrowing requirements, to restrict Government loans to cases in which the borrower has either no power to borrow by issuing stock or cannot do so on moderate terms in the particular case. The application from the Londonderry County Borough Council did not fall within this category, and was therefore refused. The excep-
  1316
  tion in the case of Dublin was only made for special reasons urged upon the Treasury by the Irish Government, which were not present in the case of the Londonderry application.

  Mr. P. A. M'Hugh, M.P.
  MR. LEAMY: I beg to ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland if he will say whether there are any limits to the term for which, under warrant of committal for contempt of Court, Mr. M'Hugh, M.P., can be kept in gaol; and if the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland possesses the power to order Mr. M'Hugh's release.
  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. ATKINSON,): The answer to both of these Questions is in the negative. I think it only right to say that before the hon. Member was arrested application was made on his behalf to the Judge who issued the attachment order that it might be rescinded. The learned Judge said he could not consider the application unless it was accompanied by an expression of regret on the part of the hon. Member. The duration of the hon. Member's imprisonment is very much in his own hands.
  MR. DELANY: Has any communication been made on the part of the Government to Judge Ross?
  MR. ATKINSON: Certainly not.
  MR. PIRIE: What did the right hon. Gentleman mean by the words "the duration of the hon. Member's imprisonment is very much in his own hands?"

  Arms (Ireland) Act.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the fact that Mathew C. Kenny, of Quilty, County Clare, on the 31st March, in this year, discharged repeatedly a rifle on the public roads, and whether the attention of the police will be called to this matter.
  MR. WYNDHAM: MR. Kenny discharged one shot on the public road on the date mentioned. He did this in order to release a cartridge which he could not otherwise extract. The attention of the police has already been drawn to the matter.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire of the police whether the statements in my Question are not perfectly accurate? Where did he get his information that only one shot was fired?
  MR. WYNDHAMwas understood to reply that there was no need to make further inquiry.

  Cork Model Schools.
  MR. J. F. X. O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, in reference to the daily average attendance of pupils at the Cork Model Schools, whether he can state how many children (excluding ninety-two infants) are in daily average attendance in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th books respectively, and how many teachers, principals, assistants, and monitors are required for those children.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The daily average attendances in 1902 were eight, twenty-six and twenty-nine in the three classes respectively. Two principal teachers, assisted by two monitors and three pupil teachers were employed in their instruction. The principal teachers supervised, in addition, the general work of the school.

  Training of Irish School Teachers.
  MR. FLYNN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state what schools in Cork under the National Board, other than the model schools, were used as centres for the training of teachers in cookery, hand and eye training, and other technical subjects.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The following Convent National Schools—St. Vincent's, St. Joseph's, North and South Presentation Schools.

  Cork Technical Committee and the Model Schools.
  MR. FLYNN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state what was the result of the conference between Head Inspectors Downing and Purser, representing the Commissioners of National Education, and the Very Rev. Canon Fleming, Rev. P. J. Dowling, and Mr. McMullen, architect, representing the Cork Technical Committee, respecting the use of portion of the model schools; were joint or separate reports submitted by the inspectors; and if he will state what was the nature of the Reports submitted to the Commissioners.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The Inspectors made special Reports to the Commissioners. All such Reports are Departmental Documents and are invariably regarded as confidential.
  MR. FLYNNasked what was the result of the meeting of the Commissioners of National Education in respect to the occupation of the model schools.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The Commissioners asked that the schools should be given up at the earliest possible date. That was the last decision; at all events I am not aware that there was anything later. If the hon. Member wishes I will endeavour to obtain further information. As the hon. Gentleman is aware the Commissioners have a difference with the Managers of the Local Technical Instruction Committee.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: Last time the right hon. Gentleman said he would communicate with the National Board and express the view that this eviction of the Technical Instruction Committee should not take place until the subject had been discussed in this House on the Education Estimates.† Has the hon. Gentleman made that representation, and if so, with what result?
  MR. WYNDHAM: I take it that the Commissioners adhere to the view that the use of the schools by the Committee must terminate on the earliest convenient
  † See (4) Debates, cxxii., 1221.

  1319
  date. I cannot say if any more definite arrangements have been made. Of course the Commissioners have the power—
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: The date has been already fixed—the 30th June.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I cannot say whether, the earliest convenient date means the date already referred to. I am prepared to inquire.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: Is not the Technical Committee referred to representative of all classes and creeds?
  MR. WYNDHAM: Even if that were so it would not alter the authority and powers of the Commissioners.
  MR. SLOAN: Is it not a fact that this Committee would never have been evicted if it had complied with the Commissioners' decision?
  MR. WYNDHAM: The matter rests with the Commissioners, not with me.
  MR. FLYNN: Is it not the fact that the Committee did comply with the requirements of the Commissioners?
  [No answer was returned.]

  Letterkenny Railway.
  MR. M'FADDEN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if the Board of Works will take steps to secure that the passengers who had paid their fares by the Letterkenny Railway and the Letterkenny to Burtonport Railway on the 15th May last, and who were unable to obtain travelling accommodation by these lines, will be refunded their fares and have compensation made them by the Lough Swilly Railway Company for the failure to provide sufficient carriages.
  MR. WYNDHAM: All such fares have been refunded on application. Other persons who did not apply for a refund were allowed to travel on the following day.

  Letterkenny Hiring Fair—Railway Breakdown.
  MR. M'FADDEN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the
  1320
  Lough Swilly Railway Company which works the new Letterkenny to Burton-port Extension Railway, County Donegal, failed to provide sufficient accommodation for passengers on the line on the occasion of the hiring fair at Letterkenny on 15th May last; and whether, in view of the overcrowding of compartments on that occasion, and of the fact that a number of passengers on the same occasion were put into goods waggons and cattle trucks and charged the same fares as persons in third class passenger carriages, and that the morning train to Letterkenny from Burtonport was an hour late in arriving, and the evening train was an hour-and-a-half late in leaving Letterkenny, and that a number of persons were unable to obtain travelling accommodation in the train at Letterkenny Station and at Old Town Station, the Board of Works, with whom the Lough Swilly Company entered into agreement for working the line, will see that the terms of the agreement are carried out and sufficient accommodation is provided for the travelling public.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I understand that some inconvenience was caused to passengers on this line on the date mentioned; but it is denied by the Company that passengers were placed in a cattle truck. It must not be forgotten, however, that the Letterkenny and Burtonport Railway was only opened for traffic in March last, and that the interval that has since elapsed has hardly been sufficient to enable the Company to estimate adequately the requirements of the line on the particular occasion in question. The Board of Works is in correspondence with the Company with a view to having such arrangements made as will obviate any recurrence of complaint, so far as possible.
  MR. M'FADDEN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the fact that the special morning train from Londonderry to Letterkenny, County Donegal, on the Letterkenny Railway, worked by the Lough Swilly Railway Company under agreement with the Board of Works, due to arrive at 10 o'clock did not arrive on the occasion of the hiring fair at Letterkenny on the 15th May last until

  1321
  12 o'clock; that the train due at Letterkenny at 1.40 p.m. on same occasion did not arrive until 3 o'clock, that the evening train for Londonderry due to leave Letterkenny at 6.50 did not leave till 8 o'clock, and that a number of passengers were unable to obtain accommodation; and, if so, whether, considering that the passengers, mostly farmers by these trains, at present pay a tax of 3½d. in the pound towards the paying off of interest on the mortgage held on the line by the Board of Works, the Board will see that the line is properly equipped and worked by the company.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The 6.30 and 8.40 morning trains arrived late at Letterkenny owing to heavy traffic. The company deny that any passengers were left behind; but if names and addresses of persons who allege they were so inconvenienced are furnished further inquiry will be made.
  MR. M'FADDEN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the agreement between the Board of Works and the Lough Swilly Railway Company for the working of the Letterkenny to Burtonport Extension Railway, County Donegal, and the provision relating to the use of the rolling stock of this line on the Letterkenny or Londonderry and Lough Swilly lines worked by the same Company, he will state whether on the 15th May last the use by the Company of part of this rolling stock on the Letterkenny line was the occasion of the insufficient accommodation afforded to passengers on the Burtonport line and the consequent complaints; and, if so, will he say what action he proposes to take.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The Company explain that this statement is incorrect, and that the carriages in use on the Burtonport line on the date in question were one in excess of the normal equipment of the line.

  Irish Salmon and Trout Fisheries.
  MR. EDWARD MITCHELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if the Irish Government has yet taken any, and if so, what steps, to carry into effect the recommenda
  1322
  tions of the recent Viceregal Commission which inquired into the depreciation of salmon and trout culture in the inland rivers of Ireland, and more particularly the recommendation of the establishment of an Irish Fishery Department, responsible only to Parliament, and distinct from the Irish Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Effect has been given to all the recommendations of the Commission which do not necessitate legislation. The Commission did not recommend the formation of a Fishery Department of the character suggested in the question. On the contrary, it proposed the establishment of a Fishery Board subordinate to the Department of Agriculture. The latter Department has appointed a special Advisory Committee on Fisheries to assist it in this branch of its work.

  Irish Poor Law Officers' Superannuation.
  MR. JOYCE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the Poor Law Association of Ireland are satisfied that the amount of one farthing in the pound annually on the valuation of Ireland from the rates, with the officers' contributions would be sufficient for the purposes of the Poor Law Superannuation (Ireland) Bill; and, if so, whether he will grant facilities for the passing of the Bill into law in the present Session of Parliament.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The Bill of this year differs in no material respect from the Bill of last year. The Actuary, whose Report upon the Bill of 1901 was presented to Parliament, considers that, even on the very favourable assumptions on which he based his Report, a rate of one farthing in the pound on the valuations of unions would be wholly inadequate to meet the liabilities of the fund proposed to be set up in the Bill. The question of facilities for discussing the measure during the present session should be addressed to the Prime Minister.

  The Fiscal Inquiry.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: I beg to ask the first Lord of the Treasury whether, in

  1323
  view of the statement of the Colonial Secretary that the new fiscal policy suggested by him is one which the Government invites the country and the House to discuss, he will afford an opportunity, and, if so, when and how, for this House to discuss it.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): My hon. friend suggests that the Government ought to give a day for an abstract discussion of this question. I do not take that view. It is open to the Leader of the Opposition, if he desires, to obtain a day, under the conditions I suggested last night; but, no doubt, before this question is settled there will be plenty of opportunities of discussing it in all its bearings.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: Is the discussion in the country to take place before an opportunity is given to discuss the question here, though the Government invited the House to discuss the matter?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I do not follow the hon. Member. Does he mean that no speech is ever to be made on any subject in the country unless it has received preliminary discussion in the House of Commons? But as a matter of fact there has been discussion in the House of Commons, and some of it last night was of a highly instructive character.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: These were the words used by the Colonial Secretary when he invited us to discussion—
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order. This is debating the answer; it is not a request for information.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the proposed inquiry into the advisability of changing the present fiscal system of the United Kingdom, in order to adopt a preferential tariff with the colonies, will be carried on openly before the public; and will he state what precise form the inquiry will take, and whether it will extend its scope to the principles of our fiscal system or be
  1324
  confined to examination of fact and circumstances.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I answered a Question of similar import yesterday, and I do not suppose my hon. friend wishes me to repeat my answer.† I may say incidentally that in replying to interrogatories in this House, I have gone a great deal farther than any of my predecessors in touching upon the methods by which the Cabinet may pursue one of the many inquiries which a Cabinet have to pursue. I hope now that the subject may be allowed to rest.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: The right hon. Gentleman has not answered the last part of my Question.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The last thing I should desire to do would be to give any answer in this House which would suggest a limitation of the scope of the inquiry which we have undertaken.
  MR. BRYCE: As the right hon. Gentleman has referred to his predecessors, may I ask whether there is any precedent for an inquiry by the Cabinet, after the subject has been publicly raised by one Member of the Cabinet?
  [No answer was returned.]

  SHOPS (EARLY CLOSING) BILL [LORDS.]
  Read the first time; to be read a second time upon Wednesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 248.]
NEW BILL.

  DAY INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS (IRELAND) BILL.
  "To provide for the Establishment of Day Industrial Schools in Ireland," presented by Mr. Harrington; supported by Mr. T. W. Russell, Mr. Patrick O'Brien, and Mr. Field; to be read a second time upon Wednesday, 1st July, and to be printed. [Bill 249.]
  † See page 1174.

  AGED PENSIONERS BILL.
  Ordered, That the Select Committee on the Aged Pensioners Bill be nominated of Sir Alexander Hargreaves Brown, Mr. Channing, Mr. Crean, Mr. Flower, Mr. Goulding, Mr. John Hutton, Mr. Lloyd-George, Mr. Grant Lawson, Mr. O'Shee, Mr. Pemberton, Colonel Pilkington, Sir Robert Reid, Mr. Remnant, Mr. Shackleton, and Mr. Skewes-Cox.
  Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records.
  Ordered, That Five be the quorum.—(Sir Alexander Acland-Hood.)

  SUPPLY [13TH ALLOTTED DAY.]
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. JEFFREYS (Hampshire, N.) in the Chair.]

  CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1903–4.

    CLASS IV.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £808,828, be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will came in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1904, for Public Education in Scotland, and for Science and Art in Scotland, including a Grant in Aid."
    THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAY,)said the work of the year had been more than usually interesting. The normal increase in the Vote would have been £45,116. The actual increase was £151,116, but that was owing to the New Aid Grant. The chief items in the normal estimate were £16,262 extra for grants to day schools, £11,500 for continuation classes, and nearly £7,000 for fee grants. There was also an increase of £5,400 for grants to necessitous School Boards. The sum in sub-head N. of £2,000 for agricultural education had been absorbed and put under the general sub-head. That was so far as the institutions benefited, a great advantage, because in former years agricul-
    1326
    tural colleges were kept to a fixed grant of £2,000; but they would now find their grants expanding according to the fulfilment of the conditions of the Continuation Code, just like any other institution. To explain the increase of this year from £45,116 to £151,116, the Committee would see that the general aid grant was £106,000. That represented the money which the Government thought it right to give to Scotland in respect of moneys that had been given to England under the English Education Bill. It was, however, for a half year, but England only had a half year in this Estimate. The way in which the proportions were calculated was according to the population of the one country to the other, and no doubt that was a fair way of calculation. Under the recent Education Act, there was for the first time a direct Imperial contribution to local resources for education in every part of England, and as that was paid out of Imperial taxation it was obvious that Scotland had to be treated in the same way. They took the proportion that the English population bore to Scotland, and, subtracting the grants under the Act of 1897, they arrived at the sum to be given to Scotland.
    MR. THOMAS SHAWasked whether the proportion was 80 to 11, the figures with which they had been familiar in the past.
    MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid they were for all practical purposes almost identical. In 1897, when the necessitous schools and the voluntary schools got aid grants, the extra contribution was made to Scotland. The Chancellor of the Exchequer at that time promised that a certain 12s. grant in the matter of the fee grant should be maintained at 12s. although the direct payment to Scotland was only 10s. But they had never needed to call upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer for any cash under these grants. The bargain made with the Treasury was that they should take this £106,000 and divide it by the number of children in average attendance, the result being that whereas they got the amount given based upon the proportion of the population, at the same time they kept to themselves for all future time the advantage of working up the average attendance. As that swelled, so would their grant swell.

    1327
    In school attendance and school staff there had been satisfactory increases. The increased attendance was largely due to the effect of the Act of 1901, under which the school age was considerably raised. The number of scholars on the register had increased from 767,000 in 1901 to 768,000 in 1902. But those figures did not represent the full measure of the improvement. The average attendance would supply a much more crucial figure. In 1901 the number was 636,000 against 646,000 in 1902, so that while the names on the register had increased by only 1,000 on 767,000, the average attendance had increased by 10,000 on 636,000. Moreover, the increase was entirely amongst the older scholars. The scholars under the age of seven years had actually decreased, between the ages of seven and ten there had been a slight increase, but the chief increase had been between ten and fourteen. This increase in the number of scholars had been met by an increased and more efficient teaching staff. There were 246 fewer pupil teachers; the uncertificated teachers were practically stationary; but the certificated teachers had increased by 256. The number of students in training, which had rapidly increased in recent years, had still further increased from 1,492 to 1,532. The classes in special subjects for teachers—such as drawing, elementary science, nature knowledge, and so forth—had been a great success. In the year ended March 31, 1902, there were 130 such courses, with an attendance of 5,000 teachers, and 169 new courses had since been established. In fact the development had been extraordinarily rapid. A peculiar interest attached to the figures in connection with the Continuation Class Code, because, although it was not a new policy, this was the first time the Committee had had a complete year under review. In this matter he might say in passing that the permanent officials had made one of the most accurate estimates ever framed. The expenses under the Code were estimated at £95,100. There were concerned 774 different continuation classes, 78,000 students, four central institutions with 10,000 students, and forty-eight science schools with 4,000 students; and
    1328
    the actual expenditure amounted to £95,139, or £39 more than the estimate. He did not think that anything in the way of an estimate had ever been done better than that. Grants had also been paid to three navigation schools with 264 students, and to three agricultural colleges with between 400 and 500 students. Of the total number of students dealt with under the Continuation Class Code, no fewer than 26,929 were in the county of Lanark, but it was a matter of regret that in some of the outlying districts the number was very few.
    It might interest the Committee to know which of the subjects were most largely taken up. Arithmetic came first, with 10,611 students; then shorthand with 9,744; needlework followed with 9,717; while book-keeping had 7,832. These classes were not necessarily conducted by certificated teachers, but might be taught by any approved person, whose qualifications had to be sufficiently attested, and whose knowledge of special subjects had to be not merely theoretical but practical. In the matter of secondary education, it was not necessary to explain in detail the different sources of supply Under the Act of 1890, by which County Councils were given money which they could apply either to the relief of rates or to secondary education, the grant from the Treasury was £79,000 as against £87,000 in the previous year, and the grants in relief of rates and for education were reduced in about the same proportion, giving £56,000 for education as compared with £62,000 in the previous year. Of that £56,000 about £13,000 was handed over to be dealt with by the secondary education committees in the counties. Then there was an education grant of £60,000 under the Act of 1892. That was assigned according to schemes drawn up by the education committees of the several counties and approved by the Department. Lastly, under the Agricultural and Local Taxation Rating Act, 1898, a total amount of £37,688 was distributed by the Department among the various secondary schools not in receipt of block grants, an additional amount being given in proportion to average attendance and the amount of burden borne by the local rates, while

    1329
    a part of the money was reserved for aid to central institutions of more than local importance.
    The sum of £106,000 had to be distributed by Minute. It was given in the form of a general aid grant, and could be distributed only by Minute in the same way as money under the general Education Acts; in other words, the Minute was merely a sort of addition to the Code. That Minute was placed on the Table of the House just before the Whitsuntide recess in order that the necessary month should not elapse before there was an opportunity for discussion. The idea was to give a certain measure of endowment to schools in sparsely populated districts, to assist them in having an adequate teaching staff, and a bonus of £20, £30, or £40, was given to the smaller schools for providing an extra teacher or teachers. It was impossible to say exactly how much would be required under that head, because it would not be known until 31st December next how many schools had come into line to earn the grant. Two points, however, were certain; first, that any school which came in would still be burdened locally with at least one-fourth of the expense of the extra teacher or teachers, so that the money would not be given without corresponding local effort; and secondly, that so far as this scheme was concerned the idea of the Department was that the sum should not exceed £25,000. The rest was distributed over the various schools in the country.
    MR. CHARLES DOUGLASasked if all those were yearly sums.
    MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid he understood that was so. He was not quite certain, but he would let the hon. Member know. Hon. Members would see that in spending this money under the Minute it would be right probably not to try any more ambitious proposals, but just to give it to all the schools carrying on the work of primary education. It was in strict accordance with what had been done in England, so far as it was a subvention from Imperial sources for education. This was necessarily only a temporary arrangement, and they could not, of course, have
    1330
    diverted this money by Minute except for purposes of primary education. He very much doubted whether there would be any great wish to do otherwise, but they need not trouble their heads about that because he supposed it was common ground for agreement on both sides that the time was very near when they would have another Scotch Education Bill—he hoped they were on the very eve of it—and given that Bill, it was quite certain that the whole resources of education would be in the melting-pot and that the Houses of Parliament would do what they pleased with them. The arrangement proposed under the Minute would, he believed, be found to be not only just but popular.
    The general policy this year would be very interesting. Two things had brought matters to a point. First there had been the effect of the Act of 1901 in prolonging the school existence, and then there was the fact that owing to the £106,000 they had really more money. With regard to the first fact the Department had been face to face with the settling, so far as it could, of the further development of the general educational policy in Scotland. They had taken a great, and, he thought, crucial step in enlarging the scope of higher instruction in Scotland by adding as auxiliaries of the Universities certain central institutions for advanced instruction in technical subjects, commercial subjects, art, agriculture, and navigation. The institutions he referred to were as follows:—In Glasgow there were the West of Scotland Technical College, the Athenæum Commercial College, the School of Art, and the Agricultural College. In Edinburgh there were the Heriot-Watt College, which was both technical and commercial, the College of Agriculture, and the prospective School of Art. In Dundee there was the Technical Institute, which included both art and commerce. In Aberdeen there were Gordon's College, which was the central institution for technical and commercial subjects. Gray's School of Art, and an Agricultural Department. In Leith there was the School of Navigation. All these were existing with the exception of the prospective School of Art, and he did not mean to say that, owing to what the Department had

    1331
    done, they had changed their character, but at any rate they were given a great chance, to a great extent, of changing it. They were formerly treated by the Department in precisely the same way as ordinary continuation classes, and the grant from the Department depended upon the number of their elementary students. By this new departure they were really encouraged rather to abandon the prosecution of elementary instruction, to leave that to other agencies, and to develop instruction in special subjects to the highest pitch demanded by the industries and commerce of the districts. All these institutions were entirely under the management of representatives of local bodies, and accordingly they were now perfectly free to develop them upon lines approved of by the managers and local opinion. There were, of course, certain precautions against extravagance, but subject to that it was true to say that the grants would increase automatically with the local expenditure, and accordingly, if the local authorities had sufficient faith in the value of these institutions to adequately support and develop them, that support would find automatically an extra support in the Department as they went along.
    It was, of course, to be kept in view that these institutions, if they were ever to attain to their full development and to occupy kindred positions to the positions institutions of the same character occupied abroad, there must be provision made in the primary and secondary schools for suitable preparation to allow pupils to avail themselves of these institutions adequately. Hitherto and in old times probably the only and perfectly legitimate aim of the secondary schools was to prepare for admission to the Universities, but now if this arrangement was to be a success there must be a further aim super-added viz., in certain cases not to prepare for the University but for technical instruction in the various classes of institutions. Accordingly there had been instituted by the Department special commercial and technical certificates to encourage such preparation in secondary schools as was fit for introduction into these institutions. It was similar when they came to the higher departments in the primary schools. There again in old times their
    1332
    only idea was to prepare for the Universities. Of course, the very last thing that the Department wished to do was in any way to discourage that. They would be very sorry indeed if those who would naturally go to the Universities should be hampered in the preliminary training which they had been used to get and which they still thought should be fostered and encouraged. At the same time that ought not to be the only position in which a student should find himself. They were not only giving these institutions an opportunity to develop themselves, but they would now have pupils remaining at the primary schools for some time after the time when, under ordinary conditions, they could obtain a merit certificate, and the question of course was: What were they to do? With a view to that certain supplementary courses had been established. His noble friend at the head of the Department made a speech at Leith in February in which he not ambiguously sketched out the development that his policy was to take. Following upon that, circular 374 was sent out, and the greatest pains were taken that it should be most widely disseminated; and this again was followed by the introduction in the Code of the changes that were there sketched. It pointed out that while it was absolutely desirable that boys going to the Universities should have proper training, as they had had previously, yet they must not sacrifice the whole of the children for one or two advanced boys. Therefore it devoted itself to the discussion of the problem, what should they do with the children who were kept at school under the Act of 1901 after they had come to the end of the whole of their school curriculum, and who at the same time were not, as a matter of fact, going to the Universities. What they thought was that it would be unfortunate if a boy had to go over the work he had been doing before. At the same time none knew better than those interested in education that when children went away from school very young they forgot what they had learned, and the object of the view put forward in this circular was that, instead of being given entirely new work they should rather be instructed from what might

    1333
    be called the applied point of view, and shown in a practical way the actual uses in the ordinary processes of life of what they had learned.
    If the boys were going to take up a University course, or some other class of training, there were special curricula to fit them for the walks in which they were entering. Upon that he desired to read somebody else's testimony and not that of the Education Department. There was a Report issued from the Merchants' Hall, Edinburgh, dated 11th June, 1903, in which attention was called to the fact that, since the issue in 1900 of the Report of a Joint Committee representing the Edinburgh Merchant Company and the Chambers of Commerce of Edinburgh and Leith, the Act of 1901 had extended the compulsory age to fourteen. Then the Report proceeded in the following terms:—
    "The period dating back to the Report has also been marked by many signs of activity on the part of the Scotch Education Department. Their Lordships have been devoting much attention to the subject of commercial education, and their zeal and interest are shown by changes made or foreshadowed in connection with their schemes for the award of group certificates, with the object of marking in a definite manner the stage of education reached by a pupil on leaving school. The certificates referred to are—(1) the Merit, (2) the Intermediate, (3) the Commercial, and (4) the Leaving. A few words of explanation may be given in regard to each for your guidance in selecting candidates for apprenticeships in your business.
    "(1) The Merit Certificate is granted for proficiency in the three elementary subjects—reading, writing, and arithmetic. A pupil may pass the qualifying examination for it as soon after he reaches twelve as he has attained the necessary proficiency. He must, however, continue at school until, as above mentioned, he has attained the age of fourteen. After passing the examination he may enter on a commercial course, and on leaving school he will obtain a Merit Certificate, which will specify the date that he passed the examination, and the value put upon his attainments in the subsequent commercial course, so far as these admit of specific mention.
    "(2) The Intermediate Certificate is primarily intended for pupils who are taking secondary subjects, but do not remain long enough at school to reach the standard of the Leaving Certificate proper. The minimum age at which the Intermediate Certificate may be obtained is fifteen. It indicates that the holder has been receiving higher instruction at a recognised school for not less than two years, and that he has reached a certain degree of attainment in the following range of subjects—viz., English, arithmetic, and elementary
    1334
    mathematics, two languages other than English, or one language with science and drawing. One of the subjects must be passed on the higher grade or standard; the rest may be on the lower grade.
    "(3) The Commercial Certificate which the Department propose to institute should be specially welcomed by business men. It is intended to restrict it to pupils of not less than sixteen years of age, who, generally speaking, have satisfied the requirements of the Intermediate Certificate, and have subsequently studied at least one complete year in a special commercial course. In this course it is proposed that the principal subject of instruction should be a modern language other than English, with, in addition, commercial arithmetic, book-keeping, shorthand, and commercial history and geography.
    "(4) The Leaving Certificate.—This certificate is designed to mark the completion of a full course of secondary education, and is only granted to applicants who have been receiving higher instruction at a recognised school for not less than four years. It is not attainable by boys of less age than seventeen, and indicates primarily ripeness for University studies."
    Therefore, they were bound to look at the whole matter, because the two things, although in one sense having nothing to do with each other, were yet linked together in a general scheme. The leaving certificate took with it at least one of the ancient languages. He would remind the Committee that unless a student had one ancient language the University would not take him. If he wished commercial or technical instruction then he could either content himself with the intermediate certificate or take a full commercial certificate, and in either of these cases he could go on to the higher and specialised institutions which he had mentioned. He hoped the Committee would recognise that in these matters the Department had made an effort to meet the requirements of the case, but, of course, it was not claimed for one moment that there was finality in the arrangement. It was at any rate a well thought out and co-ordinated scheme of education, and he hoped that in any larger scheme which might be brought out under enactment, or otherwise, it would at least not be necessary to retrace the steps which had already been taken. He ought to mention one subject which was worthy of notice. If hon. Members would look at Section 11 of the Report they would see that a great deal had been done in connection with the Museum in Edinburgh. It had been in

    1335
    many ways improved and greater advantage had been taken of it for the purposes to which it ought to be applied. In connection with this matter he would point out, what was not generally known, that at the Museum they had now the headquarters of the Department in Edinburgh. The members of the Department and the Secretary himself hoped to be more frequently there in the future than in the past, and they looked to that office as the natural meeting place between them and persons in Scotland who were interested in these matters, and who had not the opportunity of meeting them in London.
    The only other matter to which he desired to refer was one which did not bear directly on the Estimates, but was connected with the work of the Department. He could not sit down without saying a word upon the very valuable Report obtained this year from the Commission on Physical Training. He did not know how far that Report was familiar to hon. Members. If it was not, he could only commend it to them as exceedingly interesting reading. He thought it really opened up a new vista in regard to this and other aspects of school life. The statistics given in the Report were not only very interesting, but in some respects startling. They touched not only the question of town and country life, but they touched very directly certain aspects of the housing problem. So far as the schools were concerned he thought they indicated a new avenue of usefulness connected with the medical inspection of children. The Report showed the importance of medical inspection in connection with the question of physical development. Of course the various recommendations contained in the Report were naturally engaging the very serious attention of the Department. Hon. Members were probably aware that in the meantime the Department had not been idle, because at this very moment there was a Joint Committee sitting, composed of representatives of the Scotch Department and the English Department, with the view of framing some sort of model scheme for physical training in the various schools. The whole subject was replete with interest, and, if the Scotch Estimates were dreary, he thought he could do nothing better
    1336
    than assure hon. Members that they would find the reading of the Report a very profitable occupation.
    *MR. THOMAS SHAWsaid that he had the greatest pleasure in assenting upon the last point made by his right hon. and learned friend, and part; also, from the merits of the recommendations of the Commissioners. There was one feature with regard to the Report on Physical Training which was well worthy of notice, and that was the despatch with which the proceedings of the Commission had been carried out. The thanks of that House were due to the noble Chairman and to the members of the Commission for the rapidity with which they had presented their Report. He hoped his right hon. and learned friend had not thought it out of place when he asked whether the circular numbered 374 had been sent to Members of Parliament. He complained last year of the manner in which information upon matters relating to Scotch education was communicated, and he thought he had almost extracted a promise from the Government that there should be some sort of improvement in that matter on the part of the Scotch Education Department. At present they had to go through a labyrinth of Minutes and counter Minutes. Minutes were issued, and they were followed after a certain interval by fresh Minutes which not only added important substantive information, but repealed preceding Minutes. In these circumstances it was altogether out of the question that Members of Parliament should be left to wade through these Minutes which deleted here and added there. They ought to be saved that labour by the Department addressing itself to the issue of a single volume which would make clear the position of matters to those interested in Scotch education. He was very glad indeed to tender his cordial thanks to his right hon. and learned friend for the speech he had made. He was also glad that the proceedings on the Scotch education debate had begun by what was in the nature of a Budget statement upon which they might go. He said that with all the more frankness because—he was sure he was expressing the feelings of every Scotch

    1337
    Member—they might look now upon the Minute of the 28th May as of a merely temporary character. It appeared to him that if it had been other than temporary it would have involved principles of the most dangerous character on the administration of the equivalent grant. Even as a temporary arrangement for one year it was a most unfortunate step to take—to fling this money at the heads of the school managers in Scotland and tell them to do what they liked with it. They would regard it as manna descending from heaven, as gold coming, not from local resources, but from the Imperial Exchequer, and they would simply use it for the relief of the rates, and education would not be benefited to the extent of one penny.
    His right hon. and learned friend had presented a very interesting contrast between the situation in Scotland educationally this year with that of last year. This Minute, involving on the one hand the distribution of over £200,000, and on the other the anticipation that there might be radical changes in the school system of Scotland in a very short time, induced him to ask the House to take a wider survey of the exact situation at this stage. They had now had thirty years experience of popular education in Scotland, and before this Minute came into operation they were entitled to ask whether the results of the system instituted in 1872 were not such as to justify the approval of the whole country. He confessed that if it were not that human nature was so constituted that, unless a subject was a matter of contention, the interest in that subject dwindled down, the figures presented would be of the greatest interest. He wished it to appear in the records of Parliament that this was how the matter stood as between 1872 and 1902. In thirty years this was the change which had come over the face of Scotland educationally. They must remember that there had been an increase of the population in that country during that time. In 1872 the population numbered 3,395,802, and in 1902 it had risen to 4,521,192, or an increase of over 30 per cent. Tested by that rise what had happened in the educational system of their country? During that time,
    1338
    leading up to the Minute now under consideration, what had been the increase in the school accommodation? In 1872 there was accommodation for 281,688 scholars; and in 1902 it had risen to 916,000, or an increase in thirty years, not of 30 per cent. as in population, but of no less than 230 per cent. The average attendance, he admitted, was, as the Lord Advocate had said, a better test than school accommodation. It was, in 1872, 213,000, and in 1901 it had risen to 642,000 scholars—an increase of about 200 per cent. Now, people in high quarters sometimes told them that they must not ascribe too much to the School Board system in Scotland, for it was the successor of a long anterior and popular system; but he was contrasting exactly the situation in which they found themselves with a modern popular and representative system as compared with the old system of heritors' management anterior to 1872.
    There was another feature which he wished to deal with, and that was as to the teaching profession. Here he might say that, even contrasted with England, the figures of Scotch progress were striking in the highest degree. The number of assistant teachers, pupil teachers, and King's scholars, taken together, seemed not to have increased in any higher ratio than the population; but when they came to what all would admit was the best guarantee for efficient instruction, the number of certificated teachers, the figures were most remarkable and would be gratifying to any educational institute in the world. In 1872 the number of certificated teachers was 2,566; in 1902 it had risen to 11,524, being an increase of no less than 350 per cent. He was bound to say that when one looked at these figures, and thought of how Scotland was situated as to vast distances—a slender population with great difficulties in many districts of communication of one part with another—one could not but be gratified that the tradition of Scottish education had not only remained at its old height but had increased in such a manner as he had described. The increase in the number of certificated teachers in Scotland would favourably compare, and that in a striking degree, with that in England. He now came to the question of how the teachers had been financed under popular government. Their position was, on

    1339
    the whole, gratifying; because in 1872 the average salary of a schoolmaster, whether principal or assistant, was £101 6s. 7d., and it had risen during the thirty years to £146 0s. 11d. The average salary of a school mistress was, in 1872, £55 14s. 2d., and was now £72 6s. 3d. In fact, the salaries of the school masters, school mistresses, and assistants had increased by no less than 45 per cent. during that period. Might he just review these figures in brief? While the population of Scotland in thirty years had increased 30 per cent., the salaries of the teachers had increased 45 per cent., the school accommodation had increased by 230 per cent., the school attendance by 200 per cent., and the number of certificated teachers in actual employment in Scotland by 350 per cent. He held that that was a situation which ought to stand on their records as one with which the Scotch Members were highly gratified, and one which enabled them to say that the School Board system of Scotland—a system of representative and popular management by those who were intimately acquainted with the wants of the various localities—had been amply justified by results. During these thirty years they had had in every locality in Scotland a class of men brought up on this matter of education. He said so in view of many debates in the House. He did not think that the benefit to a country like Scotland could be overestimated, that in every part of it, from the Shetland Islands to the Solway Firth, they could pick out men who, from long experience, had been inured and trained in this good work of education. These men had been friends of education and had vastly improved it. Thanks to the Scotch Education Department, he believed that, on the whole, the people of Scotland were highly satisfied with their educational system.
    The ground of primary education had been entirely covered, and in these circumstances all he had said, or was permitted to say, was that he should look with the greatest dislike and disrelish upon any proposal to radically alter a system under which Scotland had so infinitely benefited. As to the Scotch Office he had no fear. He had no fear of his noble friend who was at the head of the Scotch Office. But there were two things which he did not like which
    1340
    were suggested by this Minute of 28th May. His noble friend was a member of a Government the record of whose achievements in education was one which no Scotsman liked. As to the result with regard to primary education, the ground had been covered; but with regard to secondary education, it was there, and there alone, that there was any confusion or need for specific assistance from the Department. All misapprehension should be removed from the public mind on that subject. In certain quarters the fallacy seemed to have been propagated, by some curious process, that secondary and technical education was the work of the County Councils, and that primary education was the work of the School Boards. That was an utter delusion. The School Boards of Scotland had taken up the honoured system which permitted them to handle not only primary but secondary education; and, to put it in a word, the Cockerton judgment would have been absolutely impossible in Scotland. No Scotch Judge would have been asked to settle the problem of when a child was not a child. That had been done year after year by the School Board with the approval of the Scotch Education Department and of the people of Scotland under the existing statute for the last thirty years. The finance of the matter illustrated that very clearly. There was directly paid to the School Boards of Scotland the sum of £800,000 per annum. There was indirectly paid through the County Council and the Borough Committees the sum of £139,000. That indirect payment filtered through the county bodies, which mainly controlled Scottish technical education only in the sense of being the paymasters through whom the funds from the Exchequer reached the managing bodies and the School Boards. So far as he had been able to judge Scottish opinion on education, the one note of dissatisfaction with regard to the financing of secondary education was that the County and Borough Councils, which received money to the amount of £79,000 this year, did not hand it all over for educational purposes, but abstracted, so to speak, £23,000 for the relief of the rates. That was a matter against which Scottish Members had protested year after year. They wanted education to get the benefit of this grant; and they wanted the power now exercised by the

    1341
    local authorities in the manner he had mentioned stopped. It was the old story of taking a body, which was not ad hoc but had general wants, and entrusting it with money which was ad hoc. In such cases it would always be found that in the process of transmission something was retained by the local authorities, with the result that the funds for education were to that extent depleted. In the latest Blue-book it was stated that the total amount of the residue grant was £79,000, of which only £56,000 was allocated for the purpose of technical education. Not only had the local authorities power to impound a portion of the amount, but they had power to impound the whole of it. That was a system which he did not think would receive sympathy in any quarter of the House. If a fund was to be devoted to education it should be spent on education, and the local authorities should not be in a position in which they could, as a matter of right, impound part or the whole of the fund for local purposes of their own, and to that extent deplete the educational exchequer.
    MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid that that only applied to sums under the Act of 1890.
    *MR. THOMAS SHAWsaid he admitted that. The other sum was a sum of £60,000 which had been dealt with specifically by Parliament, and must be expended on education. What they wanted, in short, was to have one fund under the same fixed rule as the other, and make the whole amount available for education. With regard to the Minute it affected a sum of £212,000 per annum. He thought some of them could look back with not a little gratification upon the battle they had fought in past years with regard to the money due to Scotland for educational purposes. Year after year they had fought the question as a question of the right of Scotland, whether by equivalent grant, or by other means, to get adequate treatment relative to the amount spent in England on education. In an interesting debate on that subject on the 10th May, 1901, he himself took a prominent part in urging on the House to consider the question from the point of view of the rights of Scotland educationally, in view of the large grants given to education in England. Many of them thought
    1342
    that the then Chancellor of the Exchequer was a man of hard heart with regard to Scotland; but the right hon. Gentleman was defended by the Lord Advocate, and the Scottish Members struggled in vain. He was not now speaking by way of complaint. He was speaking in terms of extreme gratification, because the arguments they had used year after year had, like water dropping on a rock, at last worn away the obstacles against which they had to contend. He himself on that occasion said—
    "How was the argument that they were entitled to that large sum met. It was met by the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the effect that first of all the equivalent grant would disappear, and that Scotland need look no more for aid under that head."
    His right hon. friend answered him on that occasion as follows—
    "It was said that the proper way was to make an arithmetical calculation and to give eleven-eighteenths of the amount given to England to Scotland. It was said that there were precedents for this; but the Chancellor of the Exchequer never admitted the principle of this claim, holding, on the contrary, that the principle of the equivalent grant in the matter of education was perfectly absurd."
    What was "absurd" then was now seen to be sound sense. They had now got an equivalent in the sense that they received an amount in proportion to the population of Scotland as compared with the population of England. They had struggled for years for that; and he sincerely congratulated the Government, or rather the Scotch Department, on having been able to obtain from the present Chancellor of the Exchequer an arrangement which unfortunately they had failed for so many years to accomplish. Under that Minute Scotland was to have £212,000 per annum. The amount this year which was to be devoted to remedying the understaffed condition of the smaller schools (an object with which he sympathised) was to be trifling. His right hon. friend, with all the official information at his command, estimated it at only £25,000. Whatever other hon. Members might think, he was entirely in favour of the provision in the Minute for increasing the staffs of small schools in remote localities so as to enable them to furnish proper education irrespective of their distance from well equipped centres. But when he came to the second head of the Minute they were

    1343
    indeed in a very serious position. They found that a substantial balance, amounting to nearly £200,000, was to be distributed to School Boards and school managers in respect of day schools under their management which were on the list of schools conditionally entitled to share in the Parliamentary grant for education. Why should any of this money go to school managers of voluntary schools? They got very special treatment only a few years ago; and at the present moment they were enjoying the preferential treatment of a capitation grant of 3s. per scholar. In the second place, why should the Minute propose a limit as to the day schools? He should have thought that one of the very best things that School Boards could do would be to encourage the system of evening continuation schools. Perhaps there might be an explanation on that head; if so, he should be glad to hear it. He should have thought that the best way of proceeding would have been to hold the balance of the fund for a year until it could be distributed under a settled and fixed scheme. If it once got into the clutches, so to speak, of the local authorities, he feared there would be very considerable grumbling when they changed to another form of distribution. The education of Scotland ought to be protected by this Minute in so far as the distribution of that sum was concerned; and he hoped that a statement would go forth as the deliverance of the Government that this was a temporary arrangement only, and that in future local taxes would not be relieved from a fund which should be devoted to education. Otherwise, they would hereafter be met by grumbling and statements that they were dislocating local finance.
    He regretted that, even with the information available, the Government did not treat more specifically the whole system of technical and secondary education in Scotland. They wanted a further allowance in the shape of distance grants. Under the county schemes they had a most admirable system of distance grants under which pupils from remote districts went to various centres, and, with the assistance of those grants, were encouraged to pursue the higher branches of education. He had hoped that such a scheme would be extended and enforced under the new Minute.
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    They wanted a grant for secondary and technical education. They wanted evening schools and advanced classes on special subjects more particularly noticed in the educational Minutes. The time had come also when they ought to make large allowances for the purpose of building and properly equipping technical schools in Scotland. In many parts these were urgently needed, but the local authorities were debarred from establishing them owing to the enormous cost of equipping and establishing them. Specific grants for this purpose appeared for some reason to have ceased in 1886, and consequently the local authorities had been in the habit of borrowing, and had incurred a large indebtedness, and the fear of that operation not unnaturally deterred them from undertaking this necessary preliminary of a sound modern system of technical education. Galashiels might in all probability have had most excellent technical schools if it had not had to face such an expenditure and borrow money for them. One excellent public-spirited citizen would have given the ground for them, but the capital sum required for buildings and equipment could not be faced. He hoped the House would assist the Department by some expression of opinion in favour of the resumption of a capital grant, because since 1886 it was quite clear that the general opinion in Scotland was that a further improvement and development in the direction of technical education was most desirable. This was not a local matter. It was a national matter for Scotland. He had an instance in his mind which would illustrate that and give it point and luminosity. One of his most sagacious friends, a manufacturer, destined his three sons for his own business. He had them well trained in this country in the primary stages of education, but when he had to train them for his business, according to his ideas of what was best in the commercial and manufacturing world, what had he to do? He sent his eldest son to Crefeld, near Dusseldorf, to one of the best technical schools in Europe, to learn weaving; he sent his second son to Zimbach, in Saxony, to learn hosiery knitting; and his third to Verviers, in Belgium, to learn what was best in wool

    1345
    and yarn spinning. In order that his sons should be technically trained in his own trade in Scotland they had to be sent out of Scotland. He cited the case to show that a great deal had yet to be done in the direction of technical education for Scotland, and he hoped no Government would be content to have for Scotland anything but the best the world could produce in the way of education. He looked forward to the time when, instead of our sending our children to other countries of Europe to be educated, the people of Europe and America would send their children to us to obtain the most advanced forms of technical instruction,
    *MR. SHAW-STEWARTsaid he desired to dwell for a few moments on the Report of the Royal Commission on Physical Training, of which he had been a member. Physical exercises might be divided into two branches: the first physical exercises in the school, and the second games and recreation outside. The second part would depend on local and voluntary effort, but with regard to the provision for physical exercises in the school they would be glad to hear a little more with regard to the skilled Committtee now sitting, and they desired to be assured that the Department would see that the "Model Course" that the "skilled" Committee would draw up should be circulated throughout the country. But physical training could not be extended in all kinds of Schools without some carefully organised system of feeding the children. They could not call upon the pupils of the schools to undergo a systematic and increased course of physical training without being assured that they were sufficiently nourished to benefit by such training. It was a difficult problem, because in any provision that was made for the feeding of the children they must be careful not to interfere with parental responsibility. Much had been done by voluntary and charitable effort, but they ought not to depend on such chances. An authority should provide the mid-day meal, healthful and sufficient, to be paid for in fees by the parents of the children to be benefited. He hoped before the debate concluded many voices would be raised in favour
    1346
    of that recommendation. But granted they had a perfected system of physical exercises, and legislation for the regular and good feeding of the children, the evidence and the Report called loudly for a system of medical inspection. The Commission specially examined 1,200 children, from which examination various serious facts were adduced. Those facts were full of warning, but, on the other hand, if proper steps were taken to carry out the recommendations of the Report, the situation was full of hope. The Commission proposed that the medical officers of counties and boroughs should be appointed as consulting officers to the school authorities, their remuneration being paid out of Imperial funds to the extent of, say, £100 a year each, the amount varying according to the population and area. That also would require legislation. It was further proposed that district medical officers should be appointed to visit and report on the condition of the schools, to report on the condition of the pupils, and to certify as to infectious illness, such officers working with and being paid by the school authorities, helped perhaps by grants-in-aid. There should also be sub-inspectors.
    THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMANreminded the hon. Member that matters requiring special legislation could not be discussed on the Estimates.
    *MR. SHAW-STEWARTremarked that he had come to the last of the points requiring special legislation, but there were one or two matters of importance which were purely Departmental. If there was to be a thorough and universal system of physical training it had been abundantly proved that that training could best be given by the teachers themselves. But in order that the teachers should be able to give the instruction efficiently, it was necessary that they should be properly trained, and it was hoped that the Department would in future require that all teachers should go through a course of, and obtain a certificate for, physical training before they were admitted as teachers in any school. It was also recommended that there should be appointed by and attached to the Department, a special physical training inspection staff who,

    1347
    by scientific advice, would be able practically to aid the Department in setting up this national system of physical training. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would be able to assure the Committee that such a staff would be appointed.
    MR. DOUGLASsaid that one reason why no sensational interest attached to Scotch education debates was that the Scotch Members held the simple creed that they believed in the Education Department. There were no public servants more efficient or devoted than the permanent officials of that Department. He desired, however, to call attention to a certain weakness in the administrative work of the office arising from the inadequacy of the consultation with Scotch opinion. One or two matters had come before the Committee in the course of the sitting which suggested that advantage might well be taken of a more organised system of consulting educational opinion in Scotland. There was, for instance, Circular 340, dealing with the subject of languages. It was of vital importance that nothing should be done which would in any way reduce the functions which secondary education discharged in leading up to the University, and providing for the tests which the University properly imposed. On the other hand, it was undeniable that a most undesirable feeling had been created that less importance attached to modern languages than to Latin, and the whole teaching profession of Scotland was united in condemning the particular methods by which the object in view had been sought. There was no lack of desire to make secondary education an effective avenue to the University, but it was desired that modern languages should continue to hold a place in the public estimation which would render them attractive subjects of study. Much difficulty in this matter might have been averted had there been full and deliberate consultation beforehand with persons interested in teaching. There was also Circular 374, with the object of which he deeply sympathised. No doubt the Department was placed in considerable difficulty when, by legislation favoured by the Government, but
    1348
    initiated by a private Member, a large number of children were put in to position which, for the time being, was absolutely paradoxical, and had to be dealt with. While he hoped that nothing would be done to delay the progress of the secondary education of those who were going to take the full course, it was obvious that the great majority of children between the ages of twelve and fourteen could not be asked to lose in useless studies one and a-half years of their time in the interests of the comparatively small number who were able to take secondary instruction. On the other hand, the circular and the code, excellent as their objects were, had been so devised that there was great difficulty in carrying them out. In this instance, it was clear that there had not been adequate consultation beforehand with those who were responsible for the conduct of the work and knew the conditions under which it had to be carried on.
    Nobody was better able to speak on School Board administration in Scotland than Miss Flora Stephenson, Chairman of the Edinburgh School Board, and she had said that—
    "Recently there had come into the Department a spirit of change, which manifested itself in the issue of circulars in such bewildering number that it was difficult for ordinary mortals like School Board members and teachers to keep pace with the new regulations. Each circular modified or explained the one that had gone before. She suggested very humbly that 'My Lords' should give the School Board time to carry out one set of regulations and see how it worked before they overturned it by another."
    That was surely a very simple demand. Miss Stephenson also expressed regret that—
    "The Department had ceased to communicate to the Board the full reports of the inspectors, which were of enormous help in enabling the Board to judge of the efficiency of each department of their schools."
    Those statements, with the other circumstances to which he had referred, suggested a want of close and constant consultation between the Education Department and the local administrators. Yet another illustration was to be found in the Minute of 28th May, dealing with the general grant in aid. As to the grants to small schools, he hoped there would be little difference of opinion

    1349
    All would approve of the intention of bringing the small schools up to a proper level of efficiency, and every inducement should be offered to that end. He thought it was most unfortunate that pupil teachers should be employed in those small schools. It was unfortunate both for the pupils and the teachers, because they were not really receiving the kind of training and preparation which would be given them in large schools. Then there was the question of the position of the small schools which came below the level at which two masters could be employed. In the Highlands there was a strong case for considering whether further advantages could not be given to small schools. He thought it should be the object of the Committee to do all that was possible to advance education in a part of the country which he thought was not inferior to any other part of Scotland for obtaining good educational results. They might do something in the way of providing means of transport to schools which were farther away.
    With reference to the second part of this grant he found himself in full accord with his hon. friend the Member for Hawick Burghs. He thought this was a most unfortunate disposition of the money, and some other way out of the difficulty ought to have been found. In view of the prospect of a very much overdue reconstitution of educational work in Scotland he thought this was particularly unfortunate. He trusted that by what the right hon. Gentleman had said he meant that this money would not be permanently earmarked for elementary education, but that it would be used to the utmost educational benefit for all purposes. The right hon. Gentleman said he believed this to be a very popular distribution of the money, but he had heard that it was most popular amongst those who cared least for education. He thought that after full consultation had been held with the people of Scotland, who knew most about educational administration, it would be found that this was not the direction in which they thought the money could best be disposed of even for a time. He was glad to hear that the Scottish Education Department had taken to itself a local habitation in Scotland. They all agreed
    1350
    that the more of this work they could find it possible to do in Scotland the better Scotch opinion would be pleased and the better would Scotch interests be served. He welcomed this departure and hoped a considerable advance might be made in this respect. He also approved of the purpose for which this partial removal had taken place, which was the intention of holding closer and fuller consultation with the persons he had named. He hoped that Scotch educational opinion might in the future, as in the past, be allowed to express itself clearly. He congratulated the right hon. Gentleman upon the gratifying statement he had made.
    SIR JOHN GORSTsaid he should not be so rash as to plunge into a general discussion on the Scotch Estimates. He had always been accustomed to look at education in Scotland with a considerable degree of admiration, because in Scotland the Education Acts appeared to have worked so smoothly, and so much satisfactory progress appeared to have been made. He was particularly struck with the statement about the number of certified teachers engaged in education as compared with the other teachers. The matter he wished to call attention to was one which concerned English schools just as much as Scottish schools, although the facts related entirely to Scottish children, and, perhaps, he would not be in order in dealing with this subject upon the English Estimates. What he wanted to call attention to was the enormous waste of public money spent upon education when the children were not fit to receive the instruction which was provided for them at so much cost. There was little use in Parliament and School Boards providing money for education unless they got into the schools children who were physically fit to receive instruction, and who could give some satisfactory return for the money expended upon them.
    As regarded Scottish children a lurid light had been thrown upon the condition of affairs by the report of the Royal Commission on Physical Education in Scotland, and it was to that matter he wished to draw attention. That Commission came to the very wise conclusion in the early part of

    1351
    its inquiry, that before it could make any recommendations to Parliament as to the instruction to be given in Scottish schools it was necessary to make some investigation in regard to the physical condition of the children. After examining the various districts and the available information they appointed a small Sub-Commission, consisting of two very eminent doctors, Dr. Mackenzie and Professor Matthew Hay. This Sub-Commission was entrusted with the duty of taking a sample of Scottish children and reporting as to the nature of that sample. They addressed themselves with extreme ability to their task, and he recommended hon. Members who had not already done so to read their report. They arranged to take a sample of children from 600 schools in Aberdeen, 300 boys and a similar number of girls. They also took the same number in Edinburgh and submitted the children to a careful examination. They took these samples with very great care out of the Board Schools in various parts of those towns, so many from each, and they took them by lot or chance so as to get a fair sample of Edinburgh and Aberdeen children. The Commission seemed to have come to the conclusion that Aberdeen children were a fair sample of the children of the rural parts and the smaller and healthier towns of Scotland, and that the Edinburgh children were a fair sample of Glasgow, Dundee, and Edinburgh children. But the Edinburgh children were not entirely satisfactory. In Aberdeen, for instance, they found in poor health 5 per cent. of the whole number examined. In Edinburgh, however, the total in poor health was 19·17, or nearly one in five of the number examined. In the case of the Aberdeen children those suffering from bad nourishment totalled 9 per cent., whilst in the case of Edinburgh no less than 29·83 were suffering from insufficient nourishment. They found 8·8 per cent. of the children in Aberdeen, and 12·33 per cent. in Edinburgh suffering from mental dullness. There was one particular school in Edinburgh which they carefully examined. It was North Canongate Board School. It was the poorest of all those they examined, and he should certainly say that it was exactly the same kind of school as was to be found in the East End of London, in Ber-
    1352
    mondsey, or in the poor parts south of the Thames. They were struck by the extraordinary thinness of body and generally underfed condition of the boys. He was told that people who had seen London children were struck in exactly the same way. It was found that of 150 children in North Canongate school who were examined there were no less than 115 who lived in houses of not more than two rooms. Thirty lived in one-room houses, and eighty-five in two-room houses.
    In the general Report upon this school the medical examiners said—
    "A large minority, if not the majority, of the North Canongate school children are habitually underfed and underclothed."
    Of the children examined they found 38 per cent. were suffering more or less from insufficient nutrition. What an awful idea it was that in so many of these schools a large minority, if not a majority, of the children were habitually underfed and underclothed. How was it possible to raise an Imperial race if that was the general character of the children in a large number of our schools. The medical men made this very important recommendation, which he wished earnestly to press upon the Committee—
    "Physical exercise unsupported by adequate food and adequate clothing must result in early physiological exhaustion and infirmity."
    If the children in the schools were inadequately fed and clothed, and were unfit for physical instruction, they were still more unfit for mental instruction. They found with regard to eyesight that of the children in Edinburgh schools no less than 31·57 per cent. had defective eyes which often interfered with their school work. If these children were not attended to they would grow up and be defective workmen and citizens. There were 42 per cent. of these children with defective hearing which interfered with their efficiency in the school. Altogether they found that no less than 70 per cent. of the children examined in Edinburgh were suffering from some kind of disease or other. The medical gentlemen made this observation—
    "Even if we assume that half the diseases found were such as not themselves to interfere with school efficiency—and this is much too

    1353
    large an assumption since any affection of ear, or throat, or heart, or lung, tends to interfere with efficiency all through the daily life—we should still have some 35 per cent., that is 10,500 children (among the 30,000) with some affection demanding more or less attention."
    That would give the Committee a very good idea of what was to be found in these reports, and he commended them to everybody's attention. They shocked him when he read them. He thought they were the most appalling he had ever read, and if anything like that state of things existed in the great schools in England, then the condition of our children was rotten, and ought to have the immediate attention of everyone who desired to see this country great and prosperous.
    As to the remedy, let him impress upon the Committee a recommendation which was made by the Royal Commission on this point. The hon. Baronet who spoke earlier in the debate had referred to it in his speech. It seemed to him that the first thing they had to do to correct this state of things in the schools, was to find out the facts. Why should it not be a part of the duty of every teacher to make a sort of inspection of the children in the school every day. The teacher would be able to pick out any serious case of disease, or any serious defect in hearing or eyesight, or anything which was calculated to interfere with the school work of the children. They would be able to detect anything like over-work, and also if the children were too tired to do their school work. Why should not the teachers, who were called upon to make all sorts of ridiculous returns, which were of no use to anybody, make this inspection? Besides that, there ought to be at the public expense in every one of our schools a periodical medical examination of the children. There were charitable societies which sent nurses round some of the schools, but it ought not to be left to a charitable society or a local authority. It should be prescribed by Imperial authority that the children in all schools should have the required periodical medical examination. Some children who were found to be suffering from deafness and phthisis were undergoing severe physical exercises even in the best Edinburgh schools which were examined. If there was a daily examination by the teacher he would be able to find out the worst cases, and if there was
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    a medical examination periodically, they should then know what the condition of the children was. He would state what appeared to him to be the duty of the State in the way of providing properly for the children. Of all things required by a young child, the most important was not food, but fresh air. Children required very little food provided that they had fresh air. What was the state of ventilation in the schools? Anybody who had visited the schools to any great extent, as he had done when he was an official connected with the Board of Education, knew that the air in the schools was a great deal fouler than outside, and wholly unfit for children to breathe. Attention was called to this by the Royal Commission, which said that special attention should be paid to the too frequent neglect of the proper ventilation of schools. Most elaborate rules were laid down about the building of schools, and every possible provision made for ventilation, but all these rules were of no use unless the teachers and managers kept this ventilation in proper operation. He knew that very often the ventilation was stopped by the teachers because the school was too cold. Although cold was less deleterious than foul air, it was more unpleasant. He was afraid that some of the inspectors were chilly old gentlemen, and that they did not attend as they ought to do to the question of ventilation of schools.
    Some years ago there was a scientific inquiry into the condition of schools conducted by Dr. Bayley, of Owen's College, Manchester. He examined four schools in Manchester, and one higher grade school in Salford. He classed the schools in regard to ventilation into five classes, according to the degree of foul air and smell in the various schools. There were none in the first or second class; there were only two in the third class, and the class-rooms in the fourth were reported to have "air very oppressive, giving rise to headache." Three schools were distinctly worse, "the odour, in the class-rooms especially, simply unbearable." The evidence was still more precise in regard to defective ventilation. The air in the schools was tested for carbonic acid gas. The standard accepted in hospitals was that if there were more than six parts in 10,000 of carbonic acid

    1355
    gas, the air was adjudged polluted. There was not one of these schools which was within the unpolluted zone; the owest school had seven parts, and in the class-rooms ten parts in 10,000, and the highest had no less than 12·8 parts, and 14·5 parts in 10,000 in the class-rooms. The schools were also tested for micro-organisms, and, whereas pure mountain air was quite free from micro-organisms and Paris streets contained 25 per cubic foot, it was found in the Granby Row School, Salford, that in the infant school there were 213, in the boys' school 236, and in the girls' school 286 micro-organisms per cubic foot.
    MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us how many micro-organisms per cubic foot are found in the House of Commons?
    SIR JOHN GORSTsaid he did not know. He thought the Committee would agree that fresh air was a necessity of life, and it ought to be supplied in the schools. Then the Committee would agree also that at all hazards the children must be fed before they were taught. If they were not fed, as Dr. Mackenzie said, they were not only doing no good by their education, but actually injuring the child. The teacher knew as well as possible which children came to school without having had their breakfast. How were the children to be fed? There were charitable agencies which fed as many children as their means permitted. He had been very much amused once when, after one of his speeches in the House in regard to the necessity of feeding the children, a lady interested in one of these charitable societies wrote to the Duke of Devonshire complaining that his speech was calculated to injure her charitable society. He did not want to say one word against these charitable societies; let these agencies feed the children if they could, but if they could not, the State must see that the children were fed. That was the fundamental fact on which all administration and practice should go. He did not want to undervalue parental responsibility. By all means let them make the parent responsible; there was no reason why the cost of feeding the children should not
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    be exacted from the parent. There were two classes of parents who sent their children to school unfed. One was the careless parent; the mother was drunk, perhaps, the night before, and would not get up to give the child breakfast. Such parents ought to be dealt with very sternly and punished, and if examples were made of some of the worst cases, the carelessness would probably diminish. The other class of parents could not feed their children because they were poor and had not the means to give them food, and these ought to be dealt with with great tenderness. He did not himself object to the State feeding those children; but at any rate they could be referred to the relieving officers under the Poor Law. The advice he gave applied to England and Wales as much as to Scotland.
    MR. BRYCEsaid that they had had a very interesting statement about the progress of Scotch education from the Lord Advocate, supplemented by another interesting statement by his hon. and learned friend the Member for Hawick Burghs, covering the last thirty years, and followed up by an extremely interesting speech by the right hon. Member for Cambridge University, in which he had brought his large English experience to bear on the question of education in Scotland. The question of physical culture and training was of no less importance to England than to Scotland, and he believed that the facts which had been disclosed by the Royal Commission in regard to Edinburgh showed a state of things no worse than that which prevailed in the densely-populated cities of Lancashire, Yorkshire, and the Midlands. He quite agreed with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University that it was idle to attempt to give mental training to children imperfectly fed. Children whose nutrition was in an imperfect state were incapable of receiving instruction profitably, but their brain power was actually made worse, so that in time, instead of contributing anything to society, they became a charge upon it. And no class was more prone to intemperate habits than those people who were imperfectly nourished and had

    1357
    weak brains. In Scotland this was really a growing evil. He had no doubt that the conditions in the lower parts of Edinburgh and Glasgow were worse forty years ago than now, but in Scotland the city population was increasing at an enormously more rapid ratio than the country population. The rural population of Scotland was diminishing, not only in the Highlands, where there had been enormous clearances of the people to make great deer forests, but in many of the agricultural districts. By far the largest part of the growth of population in Scotland was developed in the county of Lanark and in the neighbourhood of Glasgow. The question of the condition of the city children attained greater importance every year, as the city populations increased. He asked the Lord Advocate whether the Scottish Education Department would take steps to carry out some of the recommendations of the Royal Commission. Some of these recommendations might require legislation. But the Department could produce circulars and Minutes, and he hoped their untiring energy in that respect might be applied to the endeavour to carry out those recommendations which did not require legislation, such as the appointment of committees on physical training on each School Board.
    With regard to the Equivalent Grant, for years past they had been in a difficulty owing to their not having in any clear and compendious form a statement of the public documents and instructions under which these grants were administered. He hoped the Scottish Office would issue a concise statement on this matter. Not one member of the Committee besides the Lord Advocate, excluding, of course, his hon. friend the Member for Mid Lanark, carried all the details in his mind, and it would be a great help to weaker spirits if they had the details provided for them. He believed his hon. friend the Member for Mid Lanark was prepared to argue that Scotland was not receiving as much as it was entitled to; but he would not forestall the exhaustive statement which he was sure the Committee would have from his hon. friend. With reference to the question of supplementary courses, the Code contained a new provision on that subject. That provision had excited a great deal of criticism, and even some alarm in Scotland. The
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    best evidence of the alarm it had excited was to be found in the fact that the Permanent Secretary to the Scotch Board of Education went to Scotland and made a speech in defence of the scheme. They had all read that speech with much interest; and they had also read some of the criticisms passed on the scheme. He did not think that the scheme deserved all the severe criticism bestowed upon it. He thought the prolongation of school life did furnish a reason for some additional courses, in order to fill up the time during which children were kept at school. But there was a tendency to induce specialisation at an early age. Speaking broadly, more could be accomplished with the minds of children by giving them general education up to the age of thirteen or fourteen years than by giving them technical education. There was a dangerous tendency in that direction. He was far from saying that the system could not be worked in such a way as to avoid that evil. He hoped that the Department would take care to work it in that sense; for it was susceptible of that evil, and it was susceptible of discouraging general education in the interests of secondary and higher grade education; very little was done for the children by introducing them to special work for which their age and attainments did not fit them. Their experience was that it was better to give general education to children, and that more would be gained in the long run by doing that than by carrying them at once into what was to be the business work of their lives.
    There had been some discussion with reference to the Minute of the 28th of May last, which was issued by the Scotch Education Department. That Minute was really very important, more important than would appear from what the Lord Advocate had said. The right hon. Gentleman said it was only a temporary measure, but it was a temporary measure which might tend to make itself permanent. It consisted of two parts. The first part alluded to certain sums of money for schools in thinly peopled districts where the numbers were small, and where the average rendered it difficult to maintain adequate staffs of competent teachers. The total sum to be expended was very much less than half the sum of £212,000 to be expended under the Minute. He understood that only about

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    £50,000 per annum was to be devoted to that purpose. That left a sum of £162,000 to be expended under the second part of the Minute. The second part of the Minute was really a gift in aid of rates. It was simply taking money allocated to Scotland as the equivalent to what had been given for education in England and expending it in aid of the rates. Money was to be spent to relieve ratepayers which otherwise would be spent on the schools. Of course there was a precedent for that in the grant of 1890. As his hon. friend had said, the bulk of the Scottish Members had never ceased to protest against the practice of allowing this educational money to be spent in the relief of rates. The gain to the small ratepayer was hardly appreciable, but the loss to the community was considerable, because the schools were not able to provide the education which they ought to provide. In the case of the English Bill of last year, they succeeded in carrying a provision, by which money which had hitherto been given in aid of the rates was hereafter to be entirely given for the purposes of education. That was forced on the Government by discussion in this House, and ultimately passed with general consent, because it was felt it would be a great educational gain. They should like to do that in Scotland also, and take the whole of the money under the Act of 1890 and apply it to educational purposes. [Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: Hear, hear!] He had the consent of the Lord Advocate himself. Why, therefore, should they take the new educational fund and apply it in aid of the rates? If they now wished to withdraw from such an application a fund which was unfortunately liable to be diverted to the rates, how much more should they endeavour to have the new fund devoted to education. [Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAY said the arrangement was only temporary.] The Lord Advocate said that the arrangement was only temporary, but there was an old proverb about taking butter out of a dog's mouth. If the money were given to the ratepayers now, it would be more difficult to withdraw it and apply it to education later, than would otherwise be the case. He thought the Education Department would have
    1360
    been better advised if they had allotted the money in almost any other way. He was aware that it could not be accumulated, but it might be allotted in respect of work done to the satisfaction of the Scotch Education Department. He thought they had a real reason to complain that money which in England was given to education should in Scotland be diverted from that purpose. If the money was to go to any educational purpose, it should be spent in some way which would secure benefit to the schools and the children. It might be expended in giving better staffs, or giving additional subsidies, or in some way or another which would be a benefit to the education of the country. It might be said that it was only a question of one year, but the Committee should remember that although the Lord Advocate spoke hopefully of an Education Bill for Scotland next year—it was a hope they had conceived for many years, and which had been as long delayed—who could tell what they might be engaged in discussing next session, when new questions of great gravity were being raised. He did not wish to acquiesce in anything which was wrong now in the hope that it might be set right next year. He should be glad to know if there was any possibility of having the second part of the Minute altered, and the money devoted to real educational benefits.
    With regard to the future, he would only say that the statement they had from the Lord Advocate was a very satisfactory testimony to the working of the Scottish system. The light hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University spoke of the pleasure with which he listened to debates on Scottish education. The right hon. Gentleman was an educationalist, but he doubted whether many other English Members experienced any such pleasure. The right hon. Gentleman might, however, have complimented them on the concord which attended their debates on education, and on the absence of that religious difficulty which gave animation to English debates on education. From that source of friction they hoped to be free; and reviewing the progress of education in Scotland, they might feel that with regard to the progress made in the past, both before

    1361
    and after the Act of 1872, it was an indication that there were two lines on which they should proceed if they wanted to keep the education of the country abreast with the times. The first was to follow the lines on which they had hitherto worked, and make education in Scotland everywhere popular, and everywhere under popular control. The other was to associate Scottish education, as much as possible, with the general interests of the Scottish people, and he thought that that might well be increased by associating it more with Scotland itself. He listened to what the Lord Advocate said as to the intention of the Scotch Education Department to do more and more of its work in Edinburgh, and to give the people of Scotland a more ample opportunity of knowing what was being done. If the Lord Advocate could see his way to form, as could be done by Minute, something in the nature of a consulting body representing Scottish opinion, which would be a means of communication between Scottish opinion generally and the Department, which would focus Scottish opinion and give an opportunity to those who followed the progress of Scottish education of bringing their views to bear on the Department, he thought the right hon. Gentleman would be doing something for which Scotland would be grateful, and from which they might expect still further progress. He thought if education in Scotland had been kept in advance of education in other parts of the United Kingdom, it was very largely because they had the element of popular control; and he felt sure that in any measure which might hereafter be submitted to Parliament the feeling of Scotland in that respect would be fully recognised.
    SIR CHARLES RENSHAWcongratulated the Lord Advocate on the statement he had been able to submit with regard to Scottish education. He confessed he shared the views of the hon. Member for the Border Burghs with regard to the Minutes issued, and he would suggest that they wanted the two additional circulars from the Scottish Education Department to which the hon. Member referred. The condition of the Scottish Education Department was at the present time alarmingly complex and difficult for anyone who desired to
    1362
    find out the funds available, and the Minutes that had to be studied made the difficulty almost insuperable. He hoped next year they might have legislation to place Scottish education in a more satisfactory condition than it was at present. With regard to the money coming to Scotland under the Equivalent Grant, and to the course to be taken with regard to the appropriation of it under the peculiar circumstances of the moment, and the prospect of further legislation, he hoped it would be understood that the fact that this money was now to be used to some extent in the relief of rates would not militate against its being used for other purposes when the Bill to be brought in was made an Act. One of the difficulties which presented themselves on the occasion of the passing of the last Education Act for Scotland was the consideration of the rates, and he hoped steps would be taken in the promised measure to avoid a similar difficulty cropping up. He approached the question of foreign language education dealt with in the circular issued in January last year (No. 340) not from an educational point of view but that of an employer of labour, and he regarded that circular as one of the most mischievous and unfortunate circulars ever issued by the Department. Having regard to the work that was going on and to the immense importance to Scotland as an industrial country that they should have an increasing number of young men thoroughly educated in German and French, the slight that had been put on those languages by that circular was most undesirable. The reason for issuing the circular was to him inconceivable. He did not believe they would get a more accomplished German and French scholar because he was taught a smattering of Latin. He strongly pressed the Education Department to give greater facilities for the learning of French and German than were given at the present time.
    With reference to the remarks made by the hon. Member for the Border Burghs as to the county authorities being only authorities to receive this money, the hon. Member would find, if he were a member of a county authority, that the work devolved on them, not only in regard to the inception of schemes but also in seeing them

    1363
    carried out, was very heavy indeed. They owed a debt of gratitude to the county authorities of Scotland for the way in which they had carried out these duties. He was surprised at the hon. Member complaining of the amount of money to be spent under the second provision of the Minute of 11th May, in aid of voluntary schools. If the money was public money given to Scotland as an equivalent to the money taken by England last year to relieve the rates of the great expense involved by the Education Act, surely it was right the Roman Catholics and others associated with the public school work in Scotland should take their share. He certainly did not think it was right that they should be excluded from participating in this money. It was a very strange thing to him that when so large a sum as £212,000 was for the first time to be expended on education in Scotland, no legislation should be necessary. He did not think that was a desirable state of things. The House ought to have a stronger hand than they had, in one afternoon of this kind on the discussion of the Estimates, over these matters.
    DR. FARQUHARSONsaid it was quite obvious that if the highly trained mind of the talented head of the Edinburgh School Board was not able to assimilate the documents issued by the Scottish Board of Education, there was no chance of such simple persons as himself doing so. He thought a digestible extract should be made of all these Minutes and circulars, so that they might be understood by all. He was in rather an unfortunate position, because, although he was largely in agreement with the Lord Advocate, he could not help thinking that the Government had burnt their fingers quite enough over Education Bills in other parts of the world, to make it desirable not to continue that disagreeable process with so thorny a subject and so thorny a people as the Scotch. A most excellent document, entitled "Suggestions for Supplementary Courses," with every word of which he agreed, set forth the methods pursued by the Scotch Education Department in filling up the educational hiatus between the ages of twelve and fourteen.
    1364
    He was rather in favour of specialisation, and had never been able to see why certain specialised subjects should not have as high an educative value as some of the vaguer subjects of education. Surely a study of botany, chemistry, or natural history was as informing to the mind as a course of reading in Aristotle or Horace? What schoolboys resented more than anything else was being compelled to go through courses which would have no bearing whatever on their after life. They desired to get to close quarters with something which would be of practical benefit to them, and he did not blame them. He was glad to see that the document to which he referred laid down a series of suggestions in the direction of giving a certain amount of practical training to lads between twelve and fourteen. There had been some talk about the constitution in Edinburgh of a new Board for educational purposes. He was not at all in favour of Boards in Edinburgh; his inclination was to the abolition rather than the creation of such bodies. The Board of Supervision had gone into the limbo of all absurd and useless things, and a Committee was at present trying to discover the benefits which were being derived from the Board of Manufactures. Boards were usually constituted by the appointment of the Lord Provost, the Lord of Session, a couple of bailiffs, and one or two of the miscellaneous people who were always hanging about Edinburgh looking for a job. Meetings were then held at stated intervals or otherwise; the ornamental men did no work, and the duties fell into the hands of the more or less competent, but generally incompetent, people not altogether unconnected with Parliament House in Edinburgh. It would be extremely inconvenient to run down to Edinburgh to get work done. It was much better to go to Dover House and see Sir Henry Craik, who was always extremely obliging and courteous, and who, if he could not do what was desired, wrote most plausible letters with which Members could usually satisfy their constituents. Moreover there were two appeals—to Lord Balfour of Burleigh and the Lord Advocate—and altogether questions affecting the Department could be effectually dealt

    1365
    with. Therefore, unless good reason could be shown, they had better go on as they were doing.
    As to physical training, he considered the Commission had presented an epoch-making report. The results of the investigation and examination which had been made demanded the most serious consideration. The physical quality of the people was rapidly deteriorating. The Inspector-General of Recruiting had declared that out of 12,000 recruits examined by him 31 per cent. were rejected for physical defects—400 for defective sight, 600 for being under height, 600 for being under weight. That showed that the physical quality of the nation was deteriorating, and unless something were done we should not be able, in time of need, to meet our foes in the field as well as we used to do. In the examination of school children, there were found numbers of cases of eye, ear, throat, and heart disease, and tuberculosis. As to the under-feeding, that was not a new question, as some years ago Sir James Crichton Browne instituted a series of investigations in connection with the London Board schools, and found that a very large proportion of the scholars attended school having had no breakfast. He recollected the way in which the personal work of this gentleman was received by the House. This gentleman's Report laid down the fact that a great proportion of the children were underfed. He was told that the children who were well fed did their work very much better and were much brighter. The question of housing was also very important. He did not think that the young men at the universities got enough physical training. The curriculum was so full that there was not time between one class and another to take the necessary exercise. There was not nearly sufficient physical training at the Universities, and in the schools they wanted more fresh air. If people had good fresh air they wanted less food. They heard a good deal about the schoolmaster being the proper person to carry on physical training. He would point out, however, that under-fed children could not stand much physical training as well as their mental work. In London, where they had Sandow exercises for the children, they contracted heart disease under the strain of that particular work. He would like to
    1366
    say that it was with great satisfaction that he heard the decision of the Education Department that they intended establishing a Departmental Committee to draw up the rules and regulations under which physical training should be carried on. He hoped they would also have a medical examination of the schools, which he thought was very much required. The London School Board employed a highly-qualified medical man to go round the schools to see that they were kept in a proper sanitary condition, and properly ventilated. He thought in Scotland that the medical officer of health for the district would be the proper man to do this duty, and they might pay him an additional £100 a year. He congratulated the Lord Advocate upon the speech he had just delivered, and he also wished to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University upon his admirable speech, for by that speech he had rendered an enormous service to this important question.
    SIR MARK STEWARTsaid that after all the best security that the children were well looked after was to be found in the schoolmaster himself. Whatever rules and regulations they might lay down in regard to the health of the children, the whole question depended very largely upon the schoolmaster. Some schoolmasters cared very little for the health of the children, and were more anxious that they should do well at examinations. He had had some experience in these matters, and he had been told that he was the oldest chairman of School Boards in Scotland. In his own parish he had always taken an active interest in the rural schools, and also in the work of the large School Board of which he was a member. Some fault had been found with the Minute of the 28th May, and he should like to know why that money should not be used to assist the rates. In the country they had a very heavy rate to pay for education, and they spared no expense, and they did everything they could to make the schools efficient. Nevertheless there was always something fresh to be done, and surely they would be justified in using a portion of the money in lessening the rate. In his part of the country there was a very industrious, well-informed, and well-educated class

    1367
    of persons working as shepherds. Those men had constantly to leave good situations, where they had been for many years, in order to go into the villages to get their children properly educated. Could no funds be found to enable them to send their children to villages where there were better schools? They did not object to walk five or six miles, but some of them were twelve or thirteen miles away from such schools. Men who had devoted their whole lives to shepherding could not easily find new occupations, and to shift with all their families into some wretched two-roomed house in a village was very hard upon them. He should like some information collected from the School Board, or any other source, as to the number of people in this particular position in their respective parishes. In that way the Government would obtain some idea of the number of families who desired assistance, and also the number of children who ought to be educated, and who were receiving a very scanty training at the present moment. A complaint had been made that the Board of Education was not always accessible, but he had not heard that complaint before. He had always found, in his own experience, that questions connected with Scotch education were always willingly and readily answered. He did not know what was looming in the future, but although the House might be tired of educational matters, he thought they would have an Education Bill for Scotland next session. He had no objection to School Boards, and he did not think they could do better than establish them in their large parishes, but when he found that the same persons were members of the School Board, the Parish Council and the County Council, then he began to ask why they should have three separate elections to elect them. In a good many cases they were practically the same men, and generally they were the best men the ratepayers could find. This happened in a great number of rural parishes in Scotland. One difficulty in continuing the present School Board system was that there was no appeal for the teachers. At the present time when teachers were wronged there was no appeal, and he thought there should
    1368
    be somebody to whom an appeal could be made. He joined in the congratulations offered to the Lord Advocate in regard to the satisfactory policy which the Government had adopted in regard to education in Scotland.
    *MR. BLACKthought it was to be regretted that the hon. Member for Kirkcudbright had not joined in the almost univeral expression of opinion from both sides of the House in appealing to the Lord Advocate with reference to the Minute of 28th May, and more particularly with reference to the proposal to devote this very large sum in relief of rates and voluntary subscriptions, instead of increasing efficiency in education. He reminded the Committee that the sum at stake was a very large one. It was almost as much as the sum involved in what had been a great bone of contention in Scotland for the last fifty years, namely, the application of the teinds to the payment of Ministers in Scotland. The whole of the teinds represented £240,000 and here they were dealing with a sum nearly as great. Before many years were passed, probably next year, the whole question of education in Scotland would be in the melting-pot, and it would be the duty of the Government then in office to deal with it. It was of the utmost importance that a sum so large, and sufficient for the purpose of freeing education from the bottom of the ladder to the top, should be applied ad interim in such a way as not to make it difficult to apply the funds for secondary education and in increasing efficiency. It was true this Minute was only temporary in its application, but what was temporary really tended to become permanent if it were repeated year after year, and the net consequence of the Minute was to make it difficult for any Government which had to deal comprehensively with the subject of education to carry out any comprehensive scheme for secondary education because they would be met with the necessity of imposing an additional rate after the ratepayers had tasted blood in the shape of a remission to the extent of a fourth or a fifth of what they already paid. The Minute seemed to be worse in regard to the voluntary schools. If the Minute

    1369
    is as stated by the Lord Advocate temporary and is afterwards withdrawn, these voluntary schools would be in a very evil case, because in the meantime the springs of voluntary subscription would have dried up, but if it were permanent they were going to give to these voluntary schools the whole sum required for their maintenance without imposing any condition as to their control, and they would find great difficulty in asking these voluntary schools to submit themselves to appropriate control. There was a great deal to be done in this country in regard to technical education, and it would be a very proper application of this grant to make it applicable to the founding of technical schools throughout Scotland in suitable centres. Germany retained her supremacy not on account of protection, but on account of technical education, and if we were to retain our supremacy we must follow the same line. Referring to the very defective teaching of history in Scotch schools, the hon. Member said that the Treaty of Union provided that the kingdoms joined together be known by the common name of Great Britain. In Scotch schools they found continually that the books used were books which referred, not to Great Britain but to only one part of the kingdom. In "The Britannia History Readers, Book II.," used in the Glasgow High School, treating of the period of George III., and therefore after the Union, they found the following sentences:—
    "Soon afterwards Spain joined in the war against England, chiefly because she wanted to get back Gibraltar. England was in very great danger. The French and Spanish fleets sailed up and down the Channel, and there was no English fleet strong enough to fight them. Before long England was also at war with Holland."
    He might multiply instances indefinitely, but it was sufficient to say this was quite a common habit, and a very objectionable habit. The remedy was twofold. The Board of Education employed inspectors, and if the Board of Education indicated to these inspectors that this misuse of terms would be treated as any other inaccuracy in history, that might have a material effect on the teachers of history. The other remedy was in the Leaving Certificate Examination. He was told
    1370
    that out of twenty-two questions in history set in the examination with regard to a period before the Union, only one related to Scotch history. It would be very appropriate in Scotland, at all events, that a large proportion should be devoted to that important department of history.
    SIR J. STIRLING-MAXWELLsaid he would like to join in the appeal to the Government to take steps at once to carry out the recommendations of Lord Mansfield's Commission, and especially the recommendation with regard to the medical examination of children. He urged that steps should be taken in that direction, not next year, or next month, or next week, but to-morrow morning. He also desired to call the attention of the Government to the Report of the Committee that inquired into the question of Forestry. The work of that Committee, which was appointed by the Board of Agriculture, might not seem germane to the question they were now discussing, but the Report of the Committee referred to the importance of furthering education in regard to this very important industry. Though the Agricultural Department was active, he could not help feeling that this was a purely educational matter, and that there would be much better hope of seeing something done if the alertness and power of initiative which the Education Department had shown in regard to so many subjects were applied also to this.
    *MR. MUNRO FERGUSONsaid the Lord Advocate, in his most interesting statement indicating that so many things had been done, that so many things were being done, and that very shortly there was every reason to hope other things would be dealt with, showed that they were living at a time of extraordinary educational interest. He earnestly joined in the hope already expressed that another year would not go by without the Government being able to bring in the too-long-delayed Bill to co-ordinate education in Scotland. So much had been done lately through the acts of the Department, that the hon. Member for West Renfrewshire seemed to think

    1371
    that they had almost superseded Acts of Parliament. The educational policy had to a great extent altered, and would in future be still further altered, without adequately coming under the review of Parliament, and, according to a great authority at the Table, one of the main functions of Parliament was to maintain the efficiency of the public Departments. He failed to see how there was any representative control over the education policy of Scotland. That was to a large extent based on the Code, and memoranda upon Minutes and upon circulars. It was entirely against the spirit of the Constitution that Parliament should have so little control over so important a matter as the policy of education in Scotland. Under the present system, it could hardly be said that they were living under representative control. He expressed gratitude for what had been done through the agency of the Department in regard to the Report of the Royal Commission on physical education. He thought that the Department could help the School Boards by making known the best system of ventilation in schools. That had not been neglected by the teachers, many of whom were keen for ventilation, which was, in some cases, deplorable, especially in the landward schools. The real difficulty was to get a cheap and efficient system both of ventilation and sanitation. He believed that a good sanitary inspector of the class of a first-class clerk of works would be infinitely more useful than the ordinary inspector of schools, whose time was taken up with the literary condition of the schools. As to cooking, what was wanted was a shed and the necessary apparatus. The recommendations of the Commission on Physical Training were admirable, and he congratulated the members of the Commission on what they had done, in the public interest, in the preparation of their Report. He believed that the Swedish model was the best. In the Folkschule, the instruction was given by the teachers, but in the secondary schools the training was given by drill instructors, out-of-doors in summer and indoors in winter. Provision should be made for the training of the teachers in physical drill, but until that had been done it would be of advantage to have pro-
    1372
    fessional instructors in schools and training colleges.
    He shared the dislike expressed by hon. Members as to the distribution of so large a sum of money in the way of relief of rates. That was a very unhappy prelude to the proposed scheme of co-ordination of education in Scotland promised for next year. The money might have been set aside to spend on technical buildings and other necessary educational works. The proposed provision of grants to small schools to increase their staff was much needed in some of the sparsely populated districts, but, at the same time, that, in some cases, would prejudice the question of the suggested new system of control of education. He was sure that a great many of these side schools had been erected only through the jealousies of the different parishes. There was not a sufficiently strong educational authority to properly distribute the schools throughout the country side. The parish area was not a good one, educationally speaking. It should be much larger. The ad hoc election of the education authority was in consonance with the popular desire in Scotland, and it would work well if there were larger areas. If there was a difficulty about popular representation it would be got rid of by the payment of the travelling expenses of the members of the School Boards; and he was in favour of the system carried out in America and in Massachusetts of conveying free the children from the outlying districts to central schools, instead of maintaining inefficient side schools. He was in favour of specialising the education of children. But to do so between twelve and a half and fourteen years of age was to specialise in primary education, and it was unfortunate that that specialisation should have been made without taking the judgment of Parliament. He strongly urged that some means should be found by which, when action was taken by the Department in such directions, Parliament should be consulted. He welcomed the concession that had been made that the Education Department should be more fully represented than it had been in Edinburgh. He thought that the Department had been out of touch with Parliament on the one side, and with the public opinion of

    1373
    Scotland on the other. "My Lords" of the Education Department in London could not, from the nature of their position, be interested in the proceedings of the Department. It was impossible for the Prime Minister or the Home Secretary and the other official members of the Board to make an effective Board of Control. Such a Board should be composed of the best educational talent of Scotland, sitting in Edinburgh, to direct the educational policy of Scotland. He could not agree with his hon. friend the Member for West Aberdeen that this was a case for letting well alone. It was, he acknowledged, difficult to criticise, on occasion, a Department so much of whose work one approved, without being able to present under the rules of debate an alternative policy; but he believed that there was a case for some great change in the direction of controlling the educational administration of Scotland effectively by Parliament. He agreed with the saying of an authority not unfriendly to the Department, that—
    "The Scottish people, through their fit representatives, should have more power of initiation and more right of control in regard to their own education."
    That was the object to which they should aim; the institution of a Board of Control in Edinburgh, without which there would be very little control either here or elsewhere over the bureaucracy at Dover House.
    MAJOR SEELYsaid he would not have ventured to intervene in the debate had he not been one of the witnesses before the Royal Commission on Physical Training. In his opinion, that Commission did not receive all the consideration it deserved. The result of its investigations had been so startling that he ventured to express the hope that the Lord Advocate would not lose sight of its recommendations. He wished to refer to the urgency of carrying out certain of those recommendations, such as the medical inspection of school children, with a view to ascertaining whether or not the race was degenerating, and degenerating quickly, especially in the towns. Many of the witnesses urged most strongly on the Commission that if this country was to maintain its Army and Navy, and in
    1374
    fact if the Empire was to be maintained at all, it was absolutely essential that the children should be trained in the schools. The Committee was unanimous that some change was essential; but its recommendations were met with the appaling answer that a large proportion of the children were so hungry that they could not possibly benefit by physical training or mental training either. There was a recommendation in the Report that parents who did not feed their children should either be charged a fee, or should apply to the Poor Law; and he would respectfully suggest to the Lord Advocate that that was a matter which he should urge by every means in his power. It was certain that if they wished to maintain the Army and Navy they should train the children in the schools, and it was equally certain that if they trained them they would have to feed them also. Who believed it possible that in one of the greatest cities in the kingdom one-third of the children attending the primary schools were so hungry that it was impossible to train them. That was a state of affairs that was a disgrace to civilisation. He would urge his right hon. friend not to lose sight of this matter, which was one of profound importance.
    *MR. CROMBIEsaid be desired to associate himself with the remarks which had been made by several hon. Gentlemen about the plethora of circulars and Minutes issued by the Department. He wished to make a suggestion about the circulars, many of which were of great importance. Formerly they were simply a sort of explanation of the Code; now they were oftentimes very controversial and of enormous importance, and sometimes almost a Code in themselves, as for instance Circular 374. The Lord Advocate said that he sent copies of those circulars far and wide to almost every person in Scotland interested in education; but he had entirely forgotten the Scottish Members. The reason given for that by the Lord Advocate was that he was afraid they might be thrown into the waste-paper basket. He did not think, however, there was any danger of the circulars being mistaken for one of the many

    1375
    appeals which hon. Gentlemen received recommending a certain vintage or offering financial assistance. He did not suggest that the Department should send a circular to every Scottish Member; but he suggested that the circulars should be put down on the pink Paper, in order that any hon. Member interested might get them with his Parliamentary papers. He wished to refer to one or two questions connected with the Department. The Department issued a certificate for dynamics, but it was provided that the student should, at the same time, pass an examination in mathematics. It was perfectly right that the student should have a knowledge of mathematics; but the Department said that, even if the student previously passed in mathematics and had a certificate, he should pass in that subject again when being examined in dynamics. The explanation given was that the rule had been adopted in order to cheek cramming for a special subject, and that experience had confirmed the expediency of the rule. He admitted that dynamics was a subject that could be crammed; but unless a student had learned mathematics first, he could not get up dynamics. If the Department said that the student should pass in mathematics before being examined for dynamics, that would be reasonable; but it was not reasonable to ask a student to present himself in both subjects at the same time.
    With reference to Circular 374, the Department now issued leaving certificates for groups of subjects. One of the groups was English, mathematics, French, and German. That was precisely the education which a man wanting an efficient clerk of about seventeen years of age would desire; but the Department refused to grant a certificate for any group which included two modern languages unless Latin were also included. The explanation given was that the leaving certificate was to show ripeness for a University career. He did not want to interfere with that; but the vast number of young men who obtained leaving certificates had no intention whatever of going to a University; and yet, because a few might want to go to a University, all the others
    1376
    were refused certificates for French and German unless they knew Latin also. Another answer was that there was an intermediate certificate and a commercial certificate, but those were inferior certificates and were given to boys of fifteen or sixteen, and it was adding insult to injury to tell a lad of seventeen that he should have to take an inferior certificate. Another circular was issued, Circular 375, which he welcomed as a sign of repentance on the part of the Department. That circular stated that the desired certificate would be given to certain pupils in certain schools if they enjoyed the good graces of the inspectors. Why should the Department consider individual cases, and say that individuals in certain schools would be allowed to pass certain examinations while others would not. The real reason for this regulation was that the Department believed that Latin should be learned first, in order that modern languages might be properly learned. That reminded him of the old doctors who argued that it did not matter whether they killed or cured a patient, as long as they treated him according to the pharmacopœia. As a matter of fact, in many places in Scotland, French was taught first and then Latin. In Germany the principle was to teach the modern languages first and the ancient languages afterwards. The idea of the leaving certificate was borrowed from Germany; but in Germany it was given to three classes of schools, including schools in which Latin was not taught at all. There might be something to be said for making Latin compulsory in the Universities, but it was monstrous that boys of seventeen who had finished their education should not be given a certificate for French and German simply because they had not taken Latin also. There were hourly protests against the ignorance of the British in modern languages, and the Scottish Education Department were greatly responsible for that ignorance, owing to steps they had taken in issuing this objectionable circular. He hoped the Lord Advocate would be able to assure them that it should be withdrawn.
    *MR. HUNTER CRAIGsaid he thoroughly dissented from the proposition of the hon. Member for Kirkcudbrightshire, that

    1377
    the School Boards should be abolished and their duties should be relegated to the Parish Councils, for the reason that the boundaries of the parish and county were accidental boundaries, whilst the educational system of Scotland was arranged in populous areas. In some cases such a course would necessitate there being two schools where one was all that was necessary owing to the present School Board areas being in two parishes. He thought the Committee were greatly indebted to the right hon. Member for the Cambridge University for his able contribution to the debate, and hoped that what the right hon. Member had said would be widely circulated throughout the country, and that thereby attention would be called to the underfed and unhealthy condition of the children who attended the schools, which was cause for serious alarm and consideration. It was lamentable to think their physical condition was so wretched. The right hon. Gentleman had given them a summary of statistics from the Report of the Committee on Physical Training, and proceeded there-from to suggest a remedy; but he had expected from him and others first to deal with the cause, but this not having been touched, he ventured to say that the major cause of so many unfed children was the drunken habits of their parents. He hoped the information elicited in this debate would be of value to the Committee now sitting upstairs on the Scottish Licensing Bill, in strengthening the Bill, seeing that the welfare of the children depended on greater restrictions in the sale of intoxicating liquor. £180,000,000 annually was spent on intoxicating liquor, and it was mainly spent by the working classes—estimated at £120,000,000. So long as the money was diverted from the purchase of food for the purposes of drink, so long would they have degenerate children in the schools. Until that evil was remedied he hoped something would be done to take care of the children by making some provision for them in the way of feeding them, when they came long distances. It was most cruel to think that these poor children should only get two substantial meals a day, one in the morning and one when they got home at night.
    *MR. JOHN DEWARrose to draw special attention to the schools in the Highland counties, and to suggest to the Lord Advocate that the special circumstances required exceptional treatment. The Minute to which so much criticism had been directed that afternoon did not treat these schools very fairly, inasmuch as it only proposed to give the grant to schools where there were two certificated teachers. That was no doubt to induce the schools to appoint more certificated teachers, but in many cases in the Highland schools two certificated teachers were not necessary One certificated teacher with, in some cases, one or two pupil teachers performed all the duties required. The proposed grant of £40 per school did not cover the whole expense of a new certificated teacher, and he might point out that, inasmuch as the rates in the Highland districts ran from 8s. to 13s. in the £, their resources for this purpose were practically exhausted. Another thing which affected the Highlands especially was the fact that the parents lived in many cases a long way from the school. He knew of a case where a deerstalker lived eighteen miles from the nearest school, and he was prosecuted for not sending his children to school, but he had a very small salary and he could not afford to board his children near the school, and although the authorities had every desire to assist him they had no power.
    And, it being half-past Seven of the Clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
    Committee Report Progress; to sit again this evening.

EVENING SITTING.

  BAKER STREET AND WATERLOO RAILWAY (TRANSFER) BILL (BY ORDER).
  [THIRD READING.]
  Order for Third Reading read—
  Motion made, and Question proposed—"That the Bill be now read the third time."
  MR. CLAUDEHAYopposed the Motion. He explained that the Bill proposed to give authority to acquire certain lands in Lambeth for

  1379
  the purposes of the railway. Of late in connection with the construction of these railways, a great grievance had arisen by reason of the occupants of the houses underneath which the companies were boring, being unable to sleep through the noise and clatter incidental to night-work of that kind. His own experience was that if one had the means to make oneself obnoxious to the construction of the railway one could get some relief from this intolerable nuisance. That was shown by the case of the lady who succeeded in getting £700 from one company in order to go away and recuperate her health, which had been injured through her not being able to sleep while they were boring under her house. He complained that the works were carried on by the company by night in such a manner as to cause annoyance to poor people who could not go away, as well as to others in the neighbourhood, and as a protest against this he moved the recommittal of the Bill.
  MR. DILLONformally seconded the Motion.
  Amendment proposed—
  "To leave out from the word 'be,' to the end of the Question, and add the words 'recommitted to the former Committee.'"—(Mr. Claude Hay.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  MR. JEFFREYSsaid the Bill came before him in the Committee as an unopposed Bill, and he thought the hon. Gentleman was under a little misapprehension. The Bill was not one to carry on works at all, but merely to transfer certain houses which belonged to the South-Western Company to the Baker Street and Waterloo Company. A great number of clauses had been taken out of it to remove the objections that were made to the Bill, and under those circumstances he hoped the hon. Gentleman would reconsider the position and not persist in his Motion.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 69; Noes, 18. (Division List No. 122.)

  AYES.

  Allan, Sir William (Gateshead)

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Percy, Earl

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Doughty, George

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Anstruther, H. T.

  Evans, Saml. T. (Glamorgan)

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Austin, Sir John

  Fellowes, Hon. Allwyn Edward

  Robertson, H. (Hackney)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Fenwick, Charles

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Bigwood, James

  Forster, Henry William

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Black, Alexander William

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Eldon

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Groves, James Grimble

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Brigg, John

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Bryce, Right Hon. James

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Caldwell, James

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Henderson, Sir Alexander

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred

  Ure, Alexander

  Collings, Right Hon. Jesse

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

  Valentia, Viscount

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Wason, E. (Clackmannan)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Leng, Sir John

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Crombie, John William

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Wylie, Alexander

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Denny, Colonel

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

  Sir Frederick Banbury

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute

  and Mr. Purvis.

  NOES.

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Moss, Samuel

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

  Delany, William

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Doogan, P. C.

  O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid)

  Foster, Sir Michl. (Lond. Univ

  Shackleton, David James

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Mr. Claude Hay and Mr.

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristl, E.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Dillon.

  Lundon, W.

  Thomas, F. Freeman (Hastings)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Tomkinson, James

  Main Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill read the third time, and passed.

  SUPPLY [13TH ALLOTTED DAY.]
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. JEFFREYS (Hampshire, N.) in the Chair.]

  CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1903–4.

    CLASS IV.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £808,828, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1904, for Public Education in Scotland, and for Science and Art in Scotland, including a Grant-in-Aid."
    *MR. JOHN DEWARsaid the action of the Department was very unfair to the Highland schools. He thought instead of a grant to provide more certificated teachers, there should be a special grant to increase the perfectly inadequate salaries of the teachers in isolated and small schools, so as to attract teachers of greater qualifications. It must be remembered, too, that the position of the children in the Highland districts required special consideration, as the homes of many of them were from three to five miles from school. The children came in all weathers, often arrived tired and wet, with the provision for their midday meal already consumed, so that they spent the day cold and wet and hungry and miserable, and in a condition perfectly incapable of taking advantage of the education offered them. He also appealed for some opportunities of technical education in the Outer Hebrides, and suggested that the sum for this purpose should be drawn from the Grant under discussion rather than from the funds of the Congested Districts Board. The children of the Highlands were well worth educating. Whatever might be said of the children in other parts of the country, there was no physical deterioration here. It had been proved over and over again that when Highland children
    1382
    got the chance, they were able not only to take a good place, but a high place, in life.
    MR. BRIGGsaid he was acquainted with districts in which provision had been made for bringing children from outside places to the towns where the technical schools were situated, and no objection had been raised thereto by either the Board of Education or the auditors. He suggested that possibly the Lord Advocate might be able, either by Minute or otherwise, to do something of the same character in connection with the scattered districts in Scotland. It was very desirable that there should be means of conveyance for both children and teachers, otherwise those who lived in the country districts were placed at a great disadvantage in the matter of education. As to the question of food, in some schools provision was made on the premises for the supply of food at very low rates, and he commended that plan to the consideration of the right hon. Gentleman.
    MR. HARMSWORTHjoined in the appeal on behalf of the schools which were excluded from the benefits of the latest Minute of the Department. At the General Assembly of the United Free Churches it was unanimously resolved to memorialise the right hon. Gentleman on the subject, and he believed that had been done. The poor districts were really being penalised for their poverty. Not only were they unable to obtain such teachers as they ought to have, but they were precluded from participation in the Equivalent Grant because of their poverty. The education rate in his own constituency was anything up to 2s. 3d. in the pound, while in the neighbouring county it was anything up to 2s. 9d., and it was absurd to expect the people in these poor districts to pay anything further for the provision of educational facilities. He believed it was the fact that many of the teachers in the poorer places had never been out of the districts in which they taught, and were little better informed than the pupils they were supposed to instruct. If the right hon. Gentleman would take the

    1383
    case of these schools into his consideration he would find that a special grant might well be made. It was only right that the people should have a certificated teacher to instruct their children. With regard to the children who had to travel long distances to school, he realised that it was a very difficult matter to deal with, but he hoped the Lord Advocate would be able to devise some method by which the difficulty might be met.
    MR. BUCHANANsaid the case to which reference had been made was one which particularly demanded the consideration of the Government, especially on the present occasion, when they had this extra money at their disposal for the encouragement of education in the backward districts. He had had communications from friends in the northern Highlands putting the case even more strongly than it had been put by his hon. friend. The schools would not come at all within the terms of the Minute. They could not and ought not to be expected to go to the expense of an additional teacher, but they were exactly the schools which needed extra help. The Highlands had suffered more than any other part of Scotland from the fact that, owing to their isolation, the teachers had not been so well educated, well trained, or well paid as they should be, with the result that the standard of training and of education had been much lower than in other parts of the country. The Government could not put a substantial portion of this money to better use than by using it for the improvement of the class of teachers in remote country schools. This object might be secured either by improving the training or by supplementing the salaries. In three or four of the north-eastern counties for the last fifty or sixty years there had been in operation two trusts for the purpose of supplementing the salaries of the parish school teachers in the district, with the result that the teachers almost invariably possessed a University degree, and the schools had been brought to a high standard of educational efficiency. Why should not advantage be taken of the present windfall to do something in that direction? Like some of his hon. friends, he was rather disappointed at the manner in which this money had been allocated, the greater proportion having gone in the
    1384
    relief of the school rates. It was true the Lord Advocate had said that the arrangements were of a temporary character, and that everything would have to be put into the melting pot next year, but once aid was given to the rates it was extremely difficult to withdraw it.
    With regard to the Minute, there appeared to be no direct provision in Clause 1 that the money when earned by any of the schools under (a), (b), or (c) should really be devoted to the improvement of the teaching staff. Doubtless that was the intention of the Department, but there was nothing in the terms of the Minute to prevent the School Board or the managers of voluntary schools putting the extra money into the common fund. He suggested that the intention of the Department should be clearly stated, so that the money would be used for increasing the number of teachers, improving their conditions and capacity, and, he hoped, supplementing their salaries. He thought the teachers as a body had a substantial grievance, and that, if from year to year they were to have additional duties imposed upon and better work expected from them, they ought to have held out to them the prospect of better salaries than they now enjoyed, with an improved social and educational status. He could not view with equanimity the prospect of an Education Bill for Scotland next year. The Lord Advocate would probably be the first to disclaim the idea that English educational ideas should affect Scotch educational reforms, but the same fountain could not bring forth waters both sweet and bitter, and it was impossible to ignore the fact that the educational measures of the present Government had been extremely obnoxious to English public opinion, and pre-eminently distasteful to Scotch opinion. However, nobody could tell what would happen between this year and next, but he certainly thought the prospects of Scotch education were not favourable so long as the Government retained the ideas embodied in the Education Act of last year and the London Education Bill of this. He had heard with interest and approval the statement of the Lord Advocate that advantage was being taken of the Edinburgh Museum of Science and Art being placed under the Education Department to make that institution more of an educational office in Scotland

    1385
    than had hitherto been the case. That was a step in the right direction, as Scotland had a right to have within its own borders, and amenable to the public opinion of the country, the administration of so important a national interest as education.
    MR. CALDWELLemphasised what had been said with regard to the Highland schools, whose classes in many instances have been better taught than those farther south. The Government ought really to do something for the Highlands, not out of charity, but in order to give them facilities for securing that higher deucation which used there to exist. In the case of Stornoway the Inspector had stated that there ought to be a technical institution there. That was exactly one of those cases which might have been dealt with by using the money provided under this Vote. The Lord Advocate had expressed his satisfaction in regard to school attendance in Scotland, but in this respect he supposed the right hon. Gentleman had been taking his brief from the Scotch Education Department. He would give an illustration of how it was that the Department often gave an apparently flourishing condition of things when those who tested the statistics could show that there was no such progress, and as a matter of fact things were in an unsatisfactory condition. Take the number of children on the register. This would show how absurd it was for the Lord Advocate to say that the attendance was satisfactory. He had pointed out that on the school register there had been an increase over the previous year of 1,177 children, but the right hon. Gentleman omitted the important fact that meanwhile the population had increased by 1.1 per cent., whereas the increase on the register was only ·15. This showed that, allowing for the increase of population alone last year, the number should have been 7,906 more. Although they had only got an increase of 1,177 the right hon. Gentleman was rejoicing notwithstanding the fact that the figures showed them to be 7,906 short of the proper total, taking into account the increase
    1386
    in the population. That was an example of the way statistics were presented to the House.
    The Lord Advocate said there was a decrease in the case of children under seven years of age of 2,810. There again there ought to have been an increase of 1,743, and, allowing for the increase in the population, the total deficiency was 4,553. The deficiency between the ages of six and seven amounted to 1,270, and between the ages of five and six 574. If they took the case of the older scholars, and took into account the increase of population, they would find there an enormous reduction of what ought to be. If they went further into the statistics they would find that there was a decrease in children between eleven and twelve, and there was an increase of 630 between the ages of twelve and thirteen. There was also an increase of 4,070 between the ages of thirteen and fourteen. That was the result of the working of the Education Act of 1901. Those statistics made no allowance for the increase of population Even taking into account the operation of the Act of 1901, they actually did not get up to within 2,000 of the total which ought to have been reached according to the natural increase of the population. The average attendance did not show any benefit to those on the register at all. The average attendance last year was 14·30, in 1898 it was 14·47, and in 1899–1900 it was 14·48. He did not complain, but why did the Department not state the fact clearly that they had come to a point in Scotch education in which they were at the straining point?
    They had invoked the aid of an Act compelling children to attend school up to fourteen years of age, and notwithstanding this the attendance of children in Scotland had actually gone down. If legislation was a strain upon the people then they lost the co-operation of the parents, and consequently they actually lost in other ways. What good from a national point of view would it do to keep children at school between the ages of thirteen and fourteen years? At the present time they were kept there to prevent them going to work, but they were not being actually educated, and instead of doing any good

    1387
    they did harm by keeping the children at school against their will. A great many people seemed to think that by keeping children at school they were doing good to them, but in the case of children of thirteen or fourteen years of age who had passed the fifth or sixth standard, the worst thing they could do with those children was to compel them to go to school up to fourteen years of age, because such boys instead of dragging out an existence at school might have been sent out to work with great advantage. Such boys at once came under discipline and better surroundings, and the money they earned would enable their parents to feed them better, and better results would be obtained all round. He knew of many people who did not get much education in their early days, but had made up for it in later years, and had become most successful men. It was absurd to keep children at school if it meant absolute poverty to them and their parents. He was anxious to know how the Act was working. The Act had shown that there were 4,000 more children between thirteen and fourteen years of age at school, but what had been the effect on the school register? It had shown an absolute decline, and they now found the inspectors calling out for more vigorous legislation, and the application of compulsory powers. If they insisted on compulsory powers they would do no good educationally. He believed they had now come to a point at which they had to consider what was to be done to regain the harmony which the parents' influence produced, for without that harmony it was impossible to enforce school attendance. To get up the attendance in Glasgow they had instituted a new industrial school and a truant school, and they were making efforts to enforce the compulsory clauses of the Act. That was a bad state of matters, because what ought to produce a great improvement in education was not compulsion, but that they should make the school attractive and produce a state of things whereby the children preferred to go to school of their own accord. It was a very bad principle to talk about establishing industrial and truant schools with the view of bringing a good many
    1388
    boys together, because one bad boy in an industrial or truant school could do an immense amount of harm to other boys who were probably more susceptible than ordinary children. The inspectors had drawn attention to this matter of the necessity for compulsion, and there were many questions throughout the Report showing that after all it was the interest of the teachers in the children that could produce better attendance. Parents did not resent the interference of teachers in regard to irregular attendance, but they generally looked with kindness upon the action of the teacher, because it showed that they were interested in the success of the children, and consequently parents co-operated wherever it was shown that the teachers took a real interest in the welfare of the children.
    The next thing required was that their schools should be made so that the children would feel a pleasure in coming to them and not be over-pressed when they went to school. The present system of increasing the average attendance was by high-pressure. The Lord Advocate seemed to think it was an advantage to have a high average attendance, but this was not so in many ways. The inspectors were of the opinion that it would be better for the children to have a reasonable amount of attendance at school and have more holidays and more open-air. One inspector pointed out that about four hours a day was practically as much education as children could properly digest, and if they gave them more than that they did the children more harm than good. Up to the present, without the new supplementary course for children between twelve and fourteen years of age, the teachers considered that there was over-pressure in the school. The present curriculum had been added to quite recently, and physical training, drawing, and a number of other subjects were now to be added. In order to meet these new demands the teachers had gone to classes and obtained certificates to qualify them to teach subjects which were not under the original Code. Even in these circumstances the conditions of the Code were far more than the teachers felt they were able to teach successfully. In addition to all this over-pressure there

    1389
    was now to be another class formed of children between twelve and fourteen years of age, and they were to be educated in a special manner by supplementary courses. It was impossible that they could have anything like reasonable results with the same staff of teachers. As a result the schools were over-pressed and the children under over-pressure were not attended to in the way they ought to be. That was the explanation of the extraordinary circumstance that last year the numbers on the roll had been enormously reduced. When too much pressure was put on, the school was made distasteful to the children and parents did not show that co-operation in regard to school attendance which was to be desired. He maintained that a good deal of this was due to the change which had taken place in regard to the system of examination.
    Under the old system established in 1872 education was put on the footing of beginning with the lowest class in society and making education compulsory on everyone. It was a system by which the authorities could make sure that the very poorest child was educated. The children were examined every year in each standard, and it was only when a child was able to pass the standard that payment was made. That system was fair to the State, the child, and the parent. By the change individual examination had been abolished, and schools were not graded on the system of standards at all. Each teacher had his own system of development, and each school had its own system of organisation. That change had been made with the view to a certain end, namely, that the clever children might go up to a certain standard. But the effect of that was that what might be called the less clever and backward children were allowed to fall down, and nobody seemed to know the state they were in. Every inspector pointed out mow how difficult it was to get at the attainments of the children on account of the change in the method of examination. What was the present system? They were putting all their energies into having a great many requirements. They were beginning at the top without having any solid foundation, and that
    1390
    was why education in Scotland would suffer.
    He was glad to see from the inspectors' reports that a considerable amount of good work had been done by introducing improvements in the new school buildings recently erected. He thought this showed that the School Boards were rising to the occasion by providing what was required to meet the educational necessities of their localities. He noticed that in the case of the county of Ayr an Episcopal school was reported to be the worst in the whole district. That led him to point out that it was a pity that in giving the grant to voluntary schools it was handed over without any restriction whatever. Another point worth considering was that the playgrounds in some places were unsuitable and not kept in proper order, while some were not provided with shelter sheds. These were defects which should not be allowed to exist, and something should be done by the Department to have them remedied. There were several points in the Minute which deserved the attention of the Committee. The Lord Advocate knew that it was now admitted that they should deal with the amount given to Scotland on the principle of the Equivalent Grant. Whether it was dealt with by the equivalent being given on the basis of population, or the basis of eighty to a hundred as under the old system, was a matter of no moment, because the amount was the same whichever view was taken. The amount given to England was £2,200,000 a year.
    Attention called to the fact that there were not forty Members present.
    House counted, and there being forty present—
    MR. CALDWELLsaid the grant to England of £2,200,000 wiped out the necessitous School Boards grant, and also the voluntary schools grant. Assuming that the proportion of 11–80ths was the correct proportion due to Scotland, the correct sum that ought to have been paid to her was £302,500, whereas only £278,600, or £23,900 less than the proper amount, had been paid. There could be no doubt that that would be the fair

    1391
    amount for Scotland. But what did the Lord Advocate do? He split the English money into two, and in 1897 he did not give Scotland the full sum she was entitled to under the Equivalent Grant. The hon. and learned Gentleman now said, referring to what was done in 1897, "We will adhere to the old arrangement." Nothing could be more ridiculous than a position of that kind. With regard to the position of the matter in 1897, the Lord Advocate knew that at that time there was a sum of £26,000 which he said Scotland would get—that was to say, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would make up this sum to Scotland in order to keep the school fee grant up to 12s. The Lord Advocate now said that the probate duty grant had increased more than had been anticipated, and that that was why Scotland did not need any part whatever of the £26,000. He desired to point out to the Lord Advocate that this position of matters was brought about not because the probate duty grant had increased, but because of an absolute mistake on the part of the Department through not taking into account the residue of the probate duty payable under the Local Government Act of 1899. The Government themselves admitted that Scotland had lost no less than £150,000 during the last six years through the blundering of the Scotch Education Department. He was sure that if the matter were properly explained to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and if the Scotch Education Department were honestly to own up that they had made a mistake, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would pay the money up at once.
    Then Scotland ought to have an equivalent grant to that given to England to the voluntary schools when the School Boards were wiped away. As to the teachers, it was said last year that accommodation could be given in the training colleges for 534 students, and now there was accommodation for 691; but last year no fewer than 822 pupil teachers and 135 non-pupil teachers, or a total of 957, passed their examination, so that there was a deficiency of accommodation in the training colleges for 266 students. Every inspector told of the
    1392
    great difference there was between the teachers who had been trained in a college and those who had not been, because there was no room for them in any of the colleges. Last year there were 320 acting teachers in Scotland who had not passed through a training college at all. He could not conceive a greater folly than this system of non-provision of facilities for the educational training of teachers. Then as to the matter of leaving certificates. The new Minute said that where two languages were taken one of them must be Latin, and he rather approved of that because it would form a connecting link between the school and the University, where Latin was absolutely necessary for a degree in Arts.
    COLONEL DENNYsaid that the hon. Member had complained that the students in the training colleges did not get sufficient fresh air, but that was not the fault of the Education Department; for he was sure if the managers of the training colleges, or of any school, approached the Education Department they would sanction any expenditure for the provision of more fresh air and outdoor work for the children. No one could have read the Report of the Royal Commission on Physical Culture without feeling that there was much necessity for a change. It was absolutely certain that if the present state of things were allowed to continue, in a few years so great would be the deterioration of the children that the problem would become so serious as to menace our existence as a nation of men. There should be some sort of medical supervision, and money should not stand in the way. In one school it was found that no fewer than 90 per cent. of the children had something wrong with them. That was perfectly amazing considering that the children at the present day were better clothed and better fed than they were forty or fifty years ago. Fifty per cent. of the recruits were cast from the Army on account of their bad teeth, and he would urge the School Boards to appoint not only a dentist but an oculist to each school. If they did so he did not believe that the Education

    1393
    Department would stand in the way, but would say that it was to their credit that they had made such appointments. In many cases the eyesight of a child was at fault when he was supposed to be slow in brain, dull, or idle. In fact, sometimes the child could not see a word on his lesson book. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about the hearing?"] Hearing was often associated with defective eyesight, and defective hearing could be often cured by a simple operation. No Scotchman with any regard for the reputation of his race could read the Report of the Royal Commission without asking the Government to encourage a system of medical inspection in the schools. He concurred with the hon. Member for West Renfrewshire as to the inadvisability of devoting any part of the Equivalent Grant to the aid of local rates. The money would disappear without any advantage accruing to education, and he urged in the strongest manner that the £212,000 should be given to building technical schools. He was sure that if the Education Department devoted that capital sum for such a purpose nobody would complain. As to the teaching of Latin in schools, he admitted that nothing should be done to discourage the teaching of Latin to lads intended for a professional career; but he had been too long in business, and had travelled too much on the Continent of Europe not to know the importance of the acquisition of modern languages. A man who went as a traveller in the interests of British manufacturers to France, Germany, and Russia might as well stay at home if he did not know the modern languages. He knew men who had been trained in Latin in school and college, who were of no use in business life because of their want of knowledge of modern languages. The Scotch Education Department had no doubt insisted on Latin in the leaving certificate, with the best intentions in the world, but if it were insisted upon it might be attended with the most disastrous results so far as those who wished to follow a commercial career were concerned.
    There was another point to which he wished to refer. He had sat
    1394
    for eighteen months as one of the representatives of this House on the Royal Commission appointed to inquire into the condition of the Mercantile Marine, and to see what could be done to induce more British lads to go to sea and stay there. One of the complaints made from almost all the witnesses was the defective cooking on board ship; and what was wanted was that the average sailor should be able to cook something, fit to eat. That could not be done without education. He remembered one captain saying that a good cook could make a pudding from a couple of lbs. of flour which would fill a cabin, while a bad cook would not make a pudding from the same quantity of flour bigger than a cricket ball.
    THE DEPUTY CHAIRMANsaid he did not see any grant for sea cooking down on the Estimates.
    COLONEL DENNYsaid that there ought to have been; and all that he asked was that the Lord Advocate should take this matter into consideration. He wished to congratulate the Scotch Education Department and the Gentleman at its head on the good work they had done. That Gentleman might rest assured that although hon. Members sometimes criticised sharply enough certain things which the Department had done, they all felt that the Department was one of which Scotsmen might well be proud, and they only desired to make it still more effecient.
    MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid he could assure the hon. and gallant Member who had just sat down that the Education Department hoped to be able to do something in the matter of increasing the facilities for cookery instruction under the Continuation Code. He supposed he might take it that the hon. and gallant Gentleman considered size and quality as being always equal. The hon. Member for Mid Lanark had spoken at some length on the old story of the exact amount of money due to Scotland on the principle of the equivalent grant. He could not accept the hon. Member's statement that the loss of £26,000 per annum for a period of years

    1395
    was due to the Scotch Education Department. It was right that he should say that, because what was offered by the Chancellor of the Exchequer was a promise which was estimated in value at £26,000. That Estimate might have been right or wrong, and the point to-night was that the Department had successfully persuaded the Chancellor of the Exchequer that they should have the money in cash in future. He would remind the hon. Member for Mid Lanark that they could not take this matter of the Equivalent Grant piecemeal as he was inclined to do. If they took the sum of the Imperial subventions between 1890 and 1901 to the assistance of the local authorities, it would be found that Scotland had not at all the worst of the divide. As to the disposition of the money by Minute, that course had been adopted because the money was given this year by means of a general grant from the Treasury, and, therefore, the introduction of a Bill was not necessary. A Bill was necessary in the case of England and Ireland, because Parliament was making certain legislative changes by which the money was diverted to other purposes. If the money granted to Scotland had been diverted to other purposes it also would have to be dealt with by a Bill. The present system did not do away with Parliamentary control.
    Coming to the merits of the Minute, that portion of it which dealt with the relief given to the smaller schools had, generally speaking, obtained the approbation of most of the speakers. The hon. Member for Leith, while entirely in sympathy with the object, seemed to think that these grants to the smaller schools would prejudice what he considered would be a great reform in the educational system in Scotland—viz., the enlarging the School Board areas. He did not think that the enlarging of the School Board areas for the purposes of administration would very much affect the question of school supply in sparsely populated districts. The hon. Member for Inverness-shire and the hon. Member for East Aberdeen seemed to think that the Highland schools had not been treated with generosity under the Minute. He was in sympathy with the object which these gentlemen had
    1396
    in view, but he would point out that the grant was given to Scotland as an equivalent to that which was given to all parishes in England. It would not be right to give it in Scotland otherwise than in proportions corresponding to local effort. A great many hon. Members had complained that the relief had gone to the rates. He did not admit that the grant was to be regarded as a relief to the rates. It was the charge which had been in England an Imperial contribution to local resources for primary education, and it was as an Imperial subvention to local resources of primary education in Scotland that it must be regarded. The hon. Members for the Border Burghs and for Banffshire had made it a grievance that in this money voluntary schools had a share.
    MR. BLACK: No. I complained of the method of allocation. I said if it was only temporary the voluntary schools would lose, because their voluntary subscriptions would be wiped out.
    MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid he understood the hon. Member to object to the money being given to voluntary schools. It had been said that it would not be right to give any of this money to Roman Catholic or Episcopal schools; but the money was given in England to aid the local resources that went to provide primary education. Why, then, should not the same be done in Scotland? He was asked why none of this money was given to continuation schools. The reason was that they were schools which were not necessary in every part of the country. As to the propriety of giving building grants, £6,500 had been given lately in that way, and it was probable that more grants of the kind would be made. Of course the distribution under the Minute was merely a temporary distribution. He did not at all mean that he did not think the distribution a proper distribution, even if it had been permanent; but if there was to be a new Bill it was quite obvious that the whole of the educational resources must be within the purview of that Bill, and accordingly the arrangement could only be temporary at present. He noticed that the hon. Member for the Border

    1397
    Burghs made a speech at the end of a convivial gathering recently in the course of which he said that he would sooner abandon his political life than see the subject of Scotch education handled by the present Government. Of course they would be grieved to see the hon. Member leave political life, and he did hope that if he were allowed to bring in the Bill next year, it would not be at such a cost. A great deal had been said about the circulars. In particular the hon. Member for Leith had complained that too much was left in the power of the Department, and that everything was done by circular and Minute. He thought the hon. Member forgot what a circular was. It was the Code only that was operative, and the authority of the Code itself was only perfect after it had been on the Table of the House, when the constitutional method of objecting or vindicating the control by Parliament was to present an address asking that sanction might not be given to the Code. He really did not see what other Parliamentary control there could be over this Department, any more than there was over any other Department. There were only two ways in which Parliament could exercise control over a Department—first, by dealing with any Bill which emanated from the Department, and secondly, by criticising the Estimates and moving reductions.
    A good deal had been said about London and Edinburgh. Some speakers had talked of a consultative body; but could anything be imagined more fatal to the progress of education in Scotland than that there should be continual collisions between a consultative body, which would have to be elected in some way, and the Education Department? If they did not have collisions it would be only because the Education Department gave in to the consultative body, and then once again there would be the old story that they were ruled by a body not responsible to Parliament. As to the circular about modern languages, he very much regretted the extraordinarily strong language which had been used by the right hon. Baronet behind him, as well as by the hon. Member for Kincardineshire and North-west Lanarkshire. A complete misconception seemed to prevail. The mistake could hardly be made, unless only the one circular had
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    been read, without the circulars which accompanied it. The one thing the Department had done more than another lately had been to encourage and not to discourage, as seemed to be suggested, the cultivation of modern languages. As to the provision that of two languages one should be Latin, that was because the leaving certificate was meant for two classes of people—those who were going to a University and those who were going into the teaching profession. But for other branches there was the commercial certificate, which did not necessitate the taking of Latin at all, but allowed two modern languages to be taken, and the commercial certificate was in no way inferior to the leaving certificate—the only difference was that it represented a shorter course. There was suitable provision for special commercial studies. After the intermediate stage, commercial subjects were given a special direction, and the instruction in foreign languages was concerned chiefly with the vocabulary and subject matter of commercial proceedings. Would the hon. Gentleman prefer a clerk brought up and trained in everyday conversation and commercial proceedings, or trained in the more strictly linguistic teaching for which the leaving certificate was given? As a practical man he would choose the former; and that is precisely the clerk he would get under the commercial certificate. This circular had been most extraordinarily misunderstood, and when the proposals of the Department were viewed, not from one circular alone, but from all the circulars, it would be at once seen that, so far from discouraging the study of modern languages, the Department had fostered the study of modern languages in a manner which was specially desirable in commercial life. With reference to Circular 374, the hon. Member for North-west Lanark quoted a portion of a speech of a well known and most respected lady, Miss Flora Stevenson. He could not allow the hon. Member to hide himself behind the skirts of Miss Flora Stevenson. The hon. Member should have the courage of his convictions, and say whether he disapproved of those supplementary courses or not. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aberdeen spoke of specialisation; but his reply was that no one who read

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    Circular 374 as a whole could fairly say that there was any tendency to specialisation in it. Having known and admired the vigour of denunciation at the command of the right hon. Gentleman whenever he had a case, he listened to his half-hearted denunciation of the circular, and came to the conclusion that, after all, he had not very much to say against it.
    MR. BRYCEsaid he did not denounce the circular in any sense. He said it was vague; but so far from denouncing it he desired to convey that it had considerable merits, and that something of the kind was wanted.
    MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid that the right hon. Gentleman had now praised him even more than he expected. As to physical training, he was quite sure that the amount of attention given to the work of the Commission, especially by such a recognised authority as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University, would give an impetus to the subject which would lift its interest far beyond the somewhat prosaic region of their Scotch debate. The question of ventilation had been very much the care of the Department and of the inspectors, but, as the hon. Member for Leith Burghs said, it was really a very difficult subject. Even in this House, with unlimited money, they had not been able to secure perfect ventilation. He was inclined to agree with the remark of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University that ventilation in these country schools depended more upon adequate heating than anything else. There was no difficulty in getting fresh air. The great difficulty was that fresh air was shut out owing to the cold being too great. After all, the system of the open fireplace was better for ventilation than any artificial system unless it was contrived with extraordinary skill and care. The question of feeding the children was a very large one and went far beyond the Education Department. He could assure the hon. Member who was now reposing near him that the Department had already written to several School Boards asking how far they could carry out the recommendations. The
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    Department had appointed a skilled Committee along with the English Department to advise on the model course of physical exercises, and they were considering the question of medical and sanitary inspection. They could not, however, deal with the subject without communication with the School Boards and the Treasury. But he could assure the Committee that the matter would not be lost sight of. Several hon. Members asked questions with reference to the conveyance of children in country districts. That was a somewhat difficult matter which had also been considered by the Department and would be reconsidered. The hon. Member for Kincardineshire asked him a question about students not being allowed a certificate for dynamics unless they took up mathematics also. The object was that it should be certain that the student who presented himself for dynamics had not forgotten his mathematics.
    The hon. Member for Banffshire referred to the terrible use of the word "English" instead of "British" in the school books. He was entirely in favour of using the proper word; and, as a rule, he was not caught out in a public speech in using the word "English" when he ought to use the word "British." He was quite in favour of a proper practice being followed in all Government Departments, but he could not say that in this matter there was a great grievance. Inquiry had been made through all the inspectors, and it was found that such school books as were published in Scotland were perfectly orthodox and always used "British" A certain number of books published in England used "English" perhaps in an improper sense, but after all history was not all taught out of school books. He could scarcely promise that they were going to re-edit Macaulay, and Green's "Short History of the English People" with a view to the use of the proper word. Accordingly he did not think that the Department should exercise very rigid supervision in this matter, while making it quite clear that the word "British" ought to be used. When he heard this subject unduly pressed it reminded him of the gentleman who was sent down in the wrong place to dinner, and evidently did not know his own social position.

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    He would recommend the hon. Member for Banffshire to adopt the attitude adopted by the First Lord of the Treasury, and, in a more humble manner, by himself, and feel so sure that he did the right thing in being born a Scotchman, that he need never worry about it. The Scottish people could afford to treat with a certain amount of disregard these little slips in the use of the wrong word in school books, and he saw no reason why on account of these slips such school books should be placed on an index expurgatorius. He thought he had now dealt with all the special topics which had been raised. The hon. Member for Mid Lanark dealt with the general question; and he listened, as he always did, to the hon. Gentleman with rapt interest, but the hon. Gentleman was really laudator temporis acti. He longed for the old days when there were standards and payments by results, but his speech did not contain very much practical suggestion.
    MR. CROMBIEsaid he thought the answer of the Lord Advocate with reference to the circular was extremely unsatisfactory; indeed he did not think that the hon. Gentleman made any proper answer at all. The leaving certificate was after all the highest certificate for secondary education that could be given, and at present the Department refused to give it for two modern languages. The Lord Advocate said there was a commercial certificate, and that a commercial man ought to accept a clerk with that certificate rather than a clerk with a leaving certificate. He did not agree. A clerk who was educated in modern languages up to the age of seventeen was likely to be better than one who had only been educated up to the age of sixteen. To refuse a certificate in such circumstances was to degrade modern languages and to do a great evil to the commercial life of the community. On that ground he begged to move the reduction of the vote by £100.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum not exceeding £808,728, be granted for the said Service."—(Mr. Crombie.)
    *MR. MUNRO FERGUSONsupported the Motion. With reference to the remission of the rates, if it was to be done, it ought to be given in proportion to the burden of the rates. He remembered once sitting on a parochial board where it was suggested that a penny should be put on the rates for the sake of appearances, to avoid conducting education at a profit. That, he thought, might occur in certain parishes if the rates were to be relieved. The remission ought to be distributed in such a way as to relieve burdens where they seriously interfered with education. He could conceive nothing worse than the scheme of relief of the rates provided in the Minute. He thought the Department was extraordinarily independent of Parliament in this matter; and it was high time that the Department should be once more brought under its control. He supported the reduction, though he felt obliged for the original statement of the Lord Advocate and for the trouble he had taken in replying to the questions which had been asked.
    *MR. JOHN DEWARalso supported the Motion in the interests of the unfortunate schools in the Highlands which have not, cannot have, and ought not to have, two certificated teachers.
    MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid he could not allow Circular 374 to be dismissed with such unjust aspersions on its character. He did not think the hon. Member for Kincardineshire had at all realised the position.
    MR. CALDWELLrose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put;" but the Chairman withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question. Debate resumed.
    MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid it was perfectly clear that if the circular were read—
    And, it being midnight, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
    Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

  MARINE STORE DEALERS (IRELAND) BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. JEFFREYS (Hampshire, N.) in the Chair.]
  Clause 1 agreed to.
  Clause 2:—
  MR. MACVEAGHmoved to insert after the word "articles" "provided that where articles of the same kind, value, or description are on a particular occasion bought or sold in a lot or parcel, it will be sufficient to describe such lot or parcel without describing the several articles contained therein separately."
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 2, line 14, after the word 'article' to insert the words, 'Provided that where articles of the same kind, value, and description are on any particular occasion bought or sold in a lot or parcel it will be sufficient to describe such lot or parcel without describing each of the several articles comprising same.'"—(Mr. MacVeagh.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. ATKINSON,)said he thought it would not be wise to accept the Amendment.
  MR. CALDWELLsaid he strongly objected to Bills being
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  passed after midnight on Supply nights. He would therefore move to report Progress.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
  MR. ATKINSONsaid that the Bill was an agreed measure, and that the effect of postponing it would be to kill it.
  MR. CALDWELLsaid that if there was no objection to the Bill, it would pass on Monday.
  MR. ATKINSONsaid that there was a general desire that the Bill should pass.
  MR. NANNETTIsaid the Bill had met with the approval of all the representatives from Ireland, and he appealed to the hon. Member to permit it to pass.
  MR. FLAVINsaid he wished to join in the appeal to the hon. Member to allow the Bill to go through.
  MR. CALDWELLsaid he was confident the Bill could be passed on Monday. It would be dangerous to accept the principle that Bills might be passed on Supply nights, as hon. Members went away at midnight in the belief that Bills would not be taken.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Committee report progress, to sit again upon Monday next.
  Adjourned at eight minutes after Twelve o'clock.