Commons Sitting of 23 July 1903

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.

UNOPPOSED PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Bournemouth Corporation Tramways Bill [Lords]; Sutton Coldfield Corporation Bill [Lords]. To be read the third time to-morrow.
Manchester Corporation Bill [Lords]. Reported from the Police and Sanitary Committee, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

PRIVATE BILLS (GROUP H).
Sir AUGUSTCS GODSON reported from the Committee on Group H of Private Bills: That, for the convenience of parties, they had adjourned until Tuesday next, at half-past Eleven of the Clock; Report to lie upon the Table.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to—Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 5) Bill; Great Southern and Western Railway Bill; without Amendment.
Amendments to—Scottish American Mortgage Company; Limited, Bill [Lords]; South Lancashire Tramways Bill [Lords]; Didcot, Newbury, and (No. Southampton Railway Bill [Lords]; without Amendment.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confirm a Provisional Order under The Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to Glasgow Corporation Tramways." [Glasgow Corporation Tramways Order Confirmation Bill [Lords].
Also, a Bill intituled, "An Act to confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to Perth Corporation (Tramways)." [Perth Corporation (Tramways) Order Confirmation Bill [Lords].
And, also, a Bill intituled, "An Act to confirm a Provisional Order under The Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to Aberdeen Corporation Tramways." [Aberdeen Corporation Tramways Order Confirmation Bill [Lords.]
Glasgow Corporation Tramways Order Confirmation Bill [Lords]. Read the first time; to be read a second time upon Friday, 31st July, and to be printed. (Bill 294.)
Perth Corporation (Tramways) Order Confirmation Bill [Lords]; read the first time; to be considered upon Monday next.
Aberdeen Corporation Tramways Order Confirmation Bill [Lords],—read the first time; to be considered upon Monday next.

PETITIONS.
  ELECTORAL AREAS (LONDON).
  Petition from Shoreditch, for legislation; to lie upon the Table.
  PUBLIC LIBRARIES.
  Petition from Clonmel, for alteration of Law; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

  ORDNANCE SURVEY.
  Copy presented, of Report of the Progress of the Ordnance Survey to the
  52
  31st March, 1903 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  AGRARIAN OUTRAGES (IRELAND).
  Copy presented, of Return for the quarter ended 30th June, 1903 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  FORESHORES.
  Copy presented, of Treasury Minute, dated 21st July, 1903, directing the application of moneys received by the Board of Trade in the year ended 31st March, 1903, in respect of the rights and interests of the Crown in the Foreshores of the United Kingdom [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  POLICE ACT, 1890.
  Copy presented, of Correspondence relative to the refusal of the Secretary of State's certificate under Section 17 (2) of the Act to the River Tyne Police Force for the year ended 29th September, 1902 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  WEST INDIES.
  Copy presented, of Report on Excise Restrictions in force in the West Indies and British Guiana in relation to a proposal to sanction the payment of such an allowance on export of rum as shall compensate the distillers in those colonies for additional outlay caused by Excise Restrictions [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  EXPORTS (WOOLLEN AND COTTON GOODS AND CUTLERY).
  Return ordered, "of the total amount and total value of our exports to foreign countries of woollen goods, of cotton goods, and of cutlery, respectively, in 1877, 1882, 1887, 1892, 1897, and 1902."—(Colonel Denny.)
  LOCAL TAXATION LICENCES, 1902-3.
  Return ordered, "of the amount received in respect of each administrative county and county borough in England and Wales for local taxation licence duties and penalties, under the Local Government Act, 1888, in the year ended the 31st day of March, 1903."—(Mr. Grant Lawson.)
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  "Hyacinth" and "Minerva"—Time Spent on Repairs.
  COLONEL DENNY: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what amount of time has been incurred in overhauls on the "Hyacinth" and "Minerva" respectively since the date of handing over of the former by the builders; how much of the time spent in these overhauls has been expended during the financial year ending 31st March, 1903; and what has been the mileage run on trials and commissions respectively by these ships since the date of intimation to the Boiler Committee that these vessels were ready for comparative trials.
  (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster.) The "Hyacinth" has been in dockyard hands for about nineteen months, and the "Minerva" for about eleven and a half months since the date when the "Hyacinth" was first commissioned—viz., 3rd September, 1900. During the financial year ending 31st March, 1903, the time thus occupied was twenty-three weeks in the case of the "Hyacinth," and twelve weeks in the case of the "Minerva." The "Hyacinth" has run 8,219 knots, and the "Minerva" 9,142 knots on trials since the date of the intimation to the Boiler Committee that the ships were ready for trials, and the total distance run whilst in commission since the 1st January 1901, has been:—"Hyacinth," 16,831 knots; "Minerva," 36,660 knots.

  Holyhead Guardship—Trade with Local Shopkeepers.
  MR. ELLIS GRIFFITH: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether his attention has been called to the fact that all the officers and men on board the Guardship at Holyhead have received orders that they must procure all their provisions from the canteen and not from any of the local tradesmen; whether he is aware that the canteen on board H.M.Ss. "Resolution" and "Edgar" was carried on by Messrs. Lipton and Company, Limited, and managed by one of their employees, and
  54
  that the canteen on board H.M.S. "Spartan" is carried on by the Army and Navy Stores under similar conditions; whether the commander is acting in accordance with the regulations in forbidding the men from dealing with the local tradesmen, and thus entailing loss on the town; and whether the Admiralty will take steps to ensure liberty of action in this matter to the officers and men in the service.
  (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster.) The hon. Member's Question seems to be based on erroneous information. No orders have been issued in the vessels referred to prohibiting private dealings with tradesmen on shore, and such a prohibition would not be in accordance with the regulations. The only restriction is with regard to trading actually on board the vessels, a restriction which exists very generally, and which in practice is not found to inflict any hardship on the officers or men.

  Increased Wages for Dockyard Trades.
  CAPTAIN NORTON: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he can state whether any, and if so what decision has been arrived at as regards the increase of wages for those trades in His Majesty's dockyards whose cases have been under consideration, more especially the joiners.
  (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster.) It is anticipated that the decisions in these cases will be announced at a very early date.

  Fiscal Inquiry—Assistance of Co-operative Societies.
  MR. BROADHURST: To ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the Government have invited the assistance of the wholesale co-operative distributing societies in pursuing the inquiries into the fiscal policy of the country; arid, if not, is it their intention to do so.
  (Answered by Mr. A. J. Balfour.) I have already informed the House that any representations from members of co-operative societies, which are made

  55
  to the Government in connection with this subject, will be carefully considered.

  Indian Contribution to Military Expenditure.
  SIR MANCHERJEE. BHOWNAGGREE: To ask the First Lord of the Treasury if, in view of the difference of opinion existing between the Government of India at home and in India and the War Office as regards the liability of the India Exchequer to pay an annual sum of £786,000 on account of the increase in the pay of the British soldier, he will give the House an opportunity for discussing and pronouncing a decision on the policy which necessitates this addition to the military burdens of India.
  (Answered by Mr. A. J. Balfour.) The policy referred to by my hon. friend is one which concerns the Army as a whole, whether in India or in England. The necessity of augmenting the pay of the British soldier was discussed at great length last year, and it is impossible now to reopen the question.

  Land Revenue Defaulters in India—Issue of Writs.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether he is in a position to state the number of writs and warrants issued in each province in India against Land Revenue defaulters for the year 1901–2; and will he say how the figures compare with the year 1891–2.
  (Answered by Secretary Lord George Hamilton.) The Returns of Land Revenue coercive processes have hitherto been compiled on different systems in the different provinces, rendering the compilation of a comparative table impossible. The Government of India have undertaken to obtain figures on a uniform plan from the local Governments, but they have not yet reached me.

  Irrigation of Nattore District, Northern Bengal.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for India, seeing that in the month of February last the Chief Engineer of Public Works, Calcutta, made a survey of Nattore, Northern Bengal, with a view to a scheme of irrigation for the district, will
  56
  he state whether the Government have received a report on the subject, and the cost of the scheme which it is proposed to adopt.
  (Answered by Secretary Lord George Hamilton.) I have no information on the subject of the scheme referred to.

  Kalka-Simla Railway—Date of Opening.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for India if he will state when the railway from Kalka to Simla, about forty miles in length, which was to have been opened last March, and which has been in course of construction for two and a-half years, will be completed; and can he state the cause of the delay.
  (Answered by Secretary Lord George Hamilton.) The Kalka-Simla Railway is expected to be opened in October. The construction has been delayed by the difficult nature of the country traversed.

  Repatriation of Coolies.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for India, seeing that a number of Coolies are engaged at Parulia, in the Orissa district, for service in Assam under a three and a-half years contract, will the Government of India have inquiry made with a view to ascertain the number of Coolies thus annually engaged; and what steps are taken to repatriate them at the expiration of the contract.
  (Answered by Secretary Lord George Hamilton.) Parulia, which is not in Orissa but in Chota Nagpur, is an important centre for labour emigration to Assam, and large numbers of Coolies are annually recruited there, as to whom details are to be found in the Annual Reports of Emigration published by the Bengal Government. The contracts entered into by emigrants to Assam have never included any stipulation for repatriation, and none is considered necessary.

  Indian Budget—Annual Statement of Progress.
  MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether he can give any assurance that the annual statement exhibiting the moral and material pro-

  57
  gress of India will be issued to Members before the discussion on the Indian Budget takes place.
  (Answered by Secretary Lord George Hamilton.) I am informed that the statement will be issued on Monday morning next. As on this occasion a decennial period instead of a single year is dealt with, more time has necessarily been required for preparation and printing.

  Price of, and Duty on, Wheat in England, France, and Germany.
  COLONEL LONG: To ask the President of the Board of Trade what was the equivalent in English money of the duty on, and the average price after duty was charged, of a quarter of wheat, taking 500 lbs. to the quarter, at ports of importation in England, Germany, and France in the years 1901 and 1902.
  (Answered by Mr. Gerald Balfour.) The information cannot be given in the exact form desired, but the average Gazette price of British wheat, and average official price of wheat sold in German and French markets in 1901 and 1902 were as follows, per quarter of 480 lbs.—

  England and Wales.

  Germany.†

  France.

  s.

  d.

  s.

  d.

  s.

  d.

  1901

  26

  9

  35

  3

  35

  3

  1902

  28

  1

  35

  9

  38

  0‡

  The import duties per quarter were—

  United Kingdom.

  Germany.

  France.

  s.

  d.

  s.

  d.

  s.

  d.

  1901

  Free

  7

  7½

  12

  2½

  1902

  1

  0

  7

  7½

  12

  2½

  †Official average for Kingdom of Prussia.

  ‡Provisional Estimate.

  Pay of Office Staff of Irish Lights Board.
  COLONEL MCCALMONT: To ask the President of the Board of Trade when it is proposed to send a reply to the Commissioners of Irish Lights relative to the office staff of that Board; and whether, seeing that it is the only branch of the Irish Lights Board in winch the pay is not assimilated to that of the Trinity House, he will explain the cause of the delay, similar
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  recommendations from the Trinity House having been dealt with in a period of a few months.
  (Answered by Mr. Gerald Balfour.) The Board of Trade cannot admit that salaries paid to the staff of the Irish Lights Board must necessarily be assimilated to those of Trinity House. The Board will deal with the application on its merits, and are in communication with the Commissioners on the subject. A question has arisen as to the retirement of one of the officers which will have an effect on the acceptance, or perhaps the refusal, of the Commissioners' proposals.

  Identification of United States Exports sent via Canada.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS (Merthyr Tydvil): To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether the difficulty mentioned in the prefatory note to the Annual State of the Trade of the United Kingdom, of distinguishing between imports of Canadian produce and produce of the United States which finds its way to this country via Canadian ports in the summer months, has vet been surmounted.
  (Answered by Mr. Gerald Balfour.) No, Sir. Without legislation giving the Customs power to require certificates of "origin it is not possible to distinguish accurately either the imports of United States produce that are shipped to the United Kingdom from Canadian ports in the summer, or those of Canadian produce that are shipped from United States ports in the winter. Where, however, the documents accompanying such produce enable the country of consignment to be ascertained, it is credited by the Customs to that country.

  Expenditure of Scotch Fisheries Grant.
  MR JOHN DEWAR: To ask the Lord Advocate how much of the grant of £3,000 per annum under the Fishery Board, Scotland, Item D, has been expended in each of the last three financial years; what balance remained unexpended on 31st March, 1903; and also what balance remained at the credit of the Piers

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  and Harbours Deposit Account on 31st March, 1903.
  (Answered by Mr. A. Graham Murray.) The annual grant referred to in the Question, together with the surplus brand fees, are paid into one deposit account, out of which harbour grants are made, so that there is no allocation of grants to each item separately. The total income from these combined sources for the last three years amounted to £10,327, and the expenditure to £12,164, the difference being made up by the balance on hand at the beginning of the three years period. The balance of the deposit account in hand (allocated but not expended) at 31st March last was £22,115, against grants already allocated amounting to £27,415. Since that date £3,000 (grant) and £2,010 (surplus brand fees) for the current financial year have become available, which shows a balance at the present date of £260 against the deposit account.

  Pollution of River Girvan.
  MR. EUGENE WASON: To ask the Lord Advocate whether he is aware that on Sunday, the 12th instant, fifty-six salmon were taken from one part of the river Girvan in a sick or dying condition; and, if so, whether he will instruct the Local Government Board (Scotland) to make inquiry into the pollution of the river by which salmon and trout are annually destroyed.
  (Answered by Mr. A. Graham Murray.) I am informed that owing to the low state of the river the fact is as stated by the hon. Member. The matter does not fall within the jurisdiction of the Local Government Board, no question of public health being raised. The question of pollution could be raised by the district fishery board or by any other riparian proprietor.

  Fishing Rights in Orkney.
  MR. CATHCART WASON: To ask the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Office of Woods and Forests, if the pending disposition of fishing rights in Orkney will be suspended until full
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  inquiry can be made as petitioned for by the Orkney County Council.
  (Answered by Mr. Elliot.) By arrangement with the proposed purchaser the proposed disposition has been postponed for the present.

  Wireless Telegraphy in the Navy.
  SIR THOMAS DEWAR: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he will state how many of His Majesty's ships are now fitted with the Marconi system of wireless telegraphy, and the amount paid to the Marconi Company for the service.
  (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster.) All battleships and a very large number of cruisers are fitted either with the Marconi system of wireless telegraphy or with modifications of that system. As I stated in reply to a Question by the hon. Member for Caithness on the 28th April,† the present average expenditure upon wireless telegraphy is about £20,000 per annum, a considerable portion of this amount being paid to the Marconi Company. An agreement with the Marconi Company is now being concluded, and a use of wireless telegraphy throughout the service will be greatly extended in the future.

  Shipbuilding Programme.
  MR. YERBERGH: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in view of the fact that on 23rd July next, there will be two slips vacant at Devonport, both suitable for building a battleship, he will explain what is the necessity which compels the Admiralty to defer the laying down of the battleships of this year's programme until April, 1904.
  (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster.) The battleships for the current year, 1903–4, will be commenced at an early date, and will be built by contract. The ships which it is expected will be laid down in the dockyards will belong to a later programme.
  MR. YERBURGH: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether all the battleships of the 1902–3 programme
  † See (4) Debates, cxxi., 647.

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  have been laid down, and what was the earliest date on which any one of such ships was laid down; and whether any of the battleships of the 1903–4 programme will be laid down before April 1904; and what is the average time that elapses from the date of the preparation of any one year's Estimates before any of the battleships proposed in the said year's Estimates are laid down.
  (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster) Both the battleships of the 1902–3 programme have been laid down, the "Hindustan" on the 25th October, 1902, and the "New Zealand" on the 9th February, 1903. It is anticipated that the battleships of the 1903–4 programme will also be laid down well, before the conclusion of the financial year. The average time that has elapsed in recent years between the date of the announcement of the Naval programme to Parliament and the laying down of any of the battleships comprised in that programme has been about ten months; but, as I have stated on other occasions, the Board of Admiralty consider it is not desirable that these long intervals should continue to occur, and it is their desire to return to the system under which the laying down of vessels proposed in any year shall follow closely upon Parliamentary sanction being received. If the hon. Member will refer to the dates on which vessels have been laid down during the past three years and those on which it is proposed to lay down vessels now sanctioned, or in contemplation, lie will observe that great progress has already been made in the direction described.

  Russian Shipbuilding Programme.
  MR. YERBURGH: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the Admiralty have now ascertained the particulars of the Russian shipbuilding programme of the present year; and whether they have any information as to when and in what yards the ships will be laid down.
  (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster.) The Admiralty have not received official particulars as to the Russian shipbuilding programme. Such particulars are not published or made public by the Russian Government. It is known, however, that two first-class battleships have now been commenced in the Black Sea, and it is
  62
  considered probable that two more will be laid down at an early date in the Baltic.

  Knighton Guardians and the Education Rate.
  MR. EDWARDS: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the fact that the Guardians of the Knighton Union have passed a resolution declining to collect any rate that may be levied under the Education Act, 1902, for the purposes of elementary education in Radnorshire; and, if so, will he say what steps he proposes to take in the matter; and whether it is the duty of the rate collector to show on the demand note various items which constitute the total sum demanded.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) I have seen a copy of a resolution passed by the guardians of the Knighton Union in May last stating that, owing to the enormous increase in the county rates, they could not see their way to collect such rates after the expiration of the then current half-year, and requesting the Councils of the three Counties in which the union is comprised to issue their precepts direct to the overseers of each parish in the union. It is the duty of a board of guardians to raise the moneys required by the precepts of the County Council; but, if they fail to do so, the County Council have ample power to obtain the money from the overseers with an addition of 10 per cent. The matter is not one in which I am empowered to interfere. With respect to the last part of the Question, the demand note for poor rate in the parishes in the union should show the items prescribed by the Order of the Local Government Board dated 13th April, 1897. Under the item "county contributions" should be stated the amount in the £ required for the expenses of the County Councils, but the amount in the required for the purposes of the Education Act, 1902, should not he separately shown.

  Persons in Receipt of Parochial Relief.
  MR. MANSFIELD: To ask the President of the Local Government Board will he state the number of persons who were in receipt of parochial relief on 1st January,

  63
  1840, and on 1st January, 1903, and the proportion to the population.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) On the 1st January, 1903, there were 847,480 persons in receipt of relief in England and Wales, the proportion to the total population being 2·57 per cent. I cannot give the number for 1st January, 1840; but in 1849 (the earliest year for which I have figures for the 1st January) the number of persons in receipt of relief was 1,104,526. This total, however, is partly estimated. The proportion it bore to the total population is estimated at 6.36 per cent.

  Resignations of Sorting Clerks and Telegraphists.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he can state the number of sorting clerks and telegraphists who resigned their position in the Civil Service during the twelve months ending December 1902, and the cause of their resignation; and whether he will grant a Return naming the offices from which these men resigned.
  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) I am unable to grant such a Return, because the cause of resignation is not always stated.

  Anglo-Persian Convention.
  MR. MOON: To ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why the Anglo-Persian Convention of 9th February is signed on behalf of Persia, not by the Persian Minister who is the Plenipotentiary first named on the part of Persia in the Convention, but by a non-Persian; and why it is signed in French and Persian instead of English and Persian.
  (Answered by Lord Cranborne.) The Persian text of the Anglo-Persian Convention was signed by the Persian Minister as First Plenipotentiary, the French text being signed by Sir A. Hardinge and by the Second Persian Plenipotentiary. This is according to precedent. There are also several precedents for the use of the French language instead of English in Conventions to which this country is one of the parties. In the present instance it was found to
  64
  be more convenient and expeditious to employ the French language.

  Sickness among Imported Natives at Johannesburg.
  SIR BRAMPTON GURDON: To ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Foreign Office has received any intelligence as to death and sickness at Johannesburg among the natives imported from British Central Africa; and, if so, will steps be taken to prevent the further employment in the mines of labour from the same source.
  (Answered by Lord Cranborne.) No intelligence has been received from official sources at the Foreign Office or Colonial Office, but inquiry will lie made by telegraph.

  Land Bill—Clause 92—Local Government Inspectors.
  MR. O'SHEE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether it is intended that the Estates Commissioners, in carrying out Clause 92 of the Land Bill, shall have the assistance of one of the Inspectors of the Local Government Board who have been engaged at local inquiries under the Labourers Acts; and, if so, whether he will try to secure some one in more sympathy with the claims of the labourers than many of the Local Government Board Inspectors have shown themselves.
  (Answered by Mr. Atkinson.) The provisions of Clause 92 do not require any alteration of the existing practice as to the functions of the Local Government Board. They will still have to inquire into the merits of the schemes recommended by the sanitary authorities. The present officers of the Board have, I believe, discharged their duties satisfactorily, and no change seems to be necessitated by the proposed provisions.

  Irish Education Inquiry.
  MR. DILLON: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland what is the nature and scope of the inquiry which is now being conducted in connection with Irish education; whether its results will be communicated

  65
  to the House; and, if so, when and in what form.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) An inspector of the English Board of Education has been asked to report how typical Iris elementary day schools compare with similarly circumstanced public elementary schools in England, as retards premises, equipment, stalling, and instruction; anti to what causes differences in economy and efficiency appear to be chiefly due. Further inquiries will probably be necessary. The results of the investigation will be communicated to the House, but I cannot as yet pledge myself to the form or to the date of the communication.

  Delay in Issue of War Medals.
  MR. MANSFIELD: To ask the Secretary of State for War has his attention been called to the suicide of James Jones Homeyard, an ex-sergeant of 7th Dragoon Guards, who served during the South African War, and who left a letter to say that he had not yet received his medals; will he state the cause of the delay in issuing medals to the Reserve and Auxiliary forces when both the King's and Queen's medals have been issued to the Regulars; will he also say if the fresh medal rolls spoken of in the Army Order relating to the issue of tire King's medal have been issued to all concerned, and, if not, who is responsible for the delay; and will he explain why medals have not been issued to those regiments of which tire Commanding Officers have rendered full and amended medal rolls, and why medals have not been issued to those men who have applied for them as directed when they were discharged; and, if the medals are not ready, where has tire delay been caused.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) I am not aware of the unfortunate case mentioned, but no application for this man's medal can be traced. As I have already explained to the House, medal rolls are dealt with in order of receipt from units, and irrespectively of whether the men of the units have passed to the Reserve or not; further, only a certain number of rolls can be checked at a time, and there has been no delay. A general supply of medal roll forms for the King's medal was made to all concerned. The
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  medal roll of the 7th Dragoon Guards was sent on the 13th May to Woolwich for the necessary action.

  Recognition of Distinguished Service during South African War-Supplementary List of Officers.
  SIR JOHN GORST: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether Lord Kitchener has recently sent to the Commander-in-Chief a supplementary list of nine officers whose claims had been overlooked, and whom he now recommends for recognition for distinguished services whilst serving under his command in South Africa; if so, whether Lord Kitchener's recommendations will be carried out; and whether the names of the nine officers will be published in a supplementary Gazette.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) I am not aware that Lord Kitchener has taken such action. The list of officers for distinction in connection with South Africa has long been closed.

  38th South Staffordshire Regiment—Home Service and Barrack Accommodation.
  MR. NORMAN: To ask the Secretary of State for War if he will state how long the (South Staffordshire) regiment has been in South Africa; how long it has been under canvas; when it is expected that barracks will be provided for the regiment; how long the married non commissioned officers and men have been separated from their families, and when it is expected that their families will be sent out; and on what principle the regiments in South Africa were selected to be sent home.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) Will the hon. Member kindly refer to my reply to a Question put yesterday on this subject by the hon. Member for Stafford.†

  Volunteers in the Civil Service—Permission to attend Camp.
  Sir THOMAS DEWAR: To ask the Secretary of State for War if he will state how many Volunteers are in the employment of the Government in a
  † See (4) Debates, cxxv., 1440.

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  civil capacity; and what percentage have been granted permission to attend camps of instruction during the current year.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) This information could only be obtained by sending circular letters round to every Government Department calling for Returns, and I hesitate to call for special Returns in this matter

  Civil Surgeons and Army Appointments.
  MR. SOAMES: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in terminating the engagements of civil surgeons attached to the Royal Army and there is no present intention of Medical Corps, inasmuch as by the conditions of their appointment such surgeons are required to devote their whole time to Army duties, the services of those who hold civil appointments in addition will be dispensed with before those of gentlemen holding no such appointments.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.)
  The engagements of the civil surgeons who are devoting their whole time to military duty, and which are liable to termination on the services of an Army Medical Officer becoming available, are quite distinct from those of civil surgeons who do not devote their whole time to military duty, and which are liable to termination at any time, such appointments being made locally. The latter are available always to meet local difficulties, and are paid considerably less than the former. The proposal of the hon. Member would therefore throw additional expenditure on the State without any corresponding advantages.

  Brigade of Guards—Deficient Strength.
  MR. KENNETH BALFOUR: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the fact that the Grenadier Guards are 228, the Coldstream Guards 409, and the Scots Guards 585 men below strength, and that the ranks are being constantly further depleted by men being transferred to the reserve, he can state if any steps are in contemplation to make good this deficiency; and whether he will consider the advisability of enlisting
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  men for a period of only two years with the Colours.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The present deficiency in some of the battalions of the Guards arises in some degree from the diversion to the Irish Guards, who were raised in 1900, of men who previously joined other Guards regiments. Every effort will be made to obtain recruits, but the present establishment of the Guards is nearly 3,000 higher than it was seven years ago. Next year the extra pay will become effective to men who re-engage, which they have now no inducement to do, altering the terms of enlistment.

  Publication of Report on Northern Nigeria and Trinidad Riot.
  MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will arrange for tiffs year's Report on Northern Nigeria, and for the Report of the Commission on the not in Trinidad, to be circulated before the discussion on the Colonial Estimates.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Chamberlain.) The Report on Northern Nigeria has not yet been received, and it is therefore impossible to make a definite promise as to the date of its circulation, but as soon as it has been received steps will be taken to lay it before Parliament with the least possible delay. Tire Report of the Commission on the not in Trinidad is already in the hands of hon. Members.

  QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

    Weights carried by Cavalry Horses.
    COLONEL LEGGE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether any steps have yet been taken to reduce the weight carried on field service by cavalry horses; and, if so, whether he can state the weights now carried by the horses of the light, medium, and heavy cavalry, respectively.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. BRODRICK, Surrey, Guildford): The whole question is under consideration.
    COLONEL LEGCE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I put this Question two years ago and was then told it was under consideration.
    MR. BRODRICK: Yes, Sir, but I am afraid this is a matter on which so many men hold different opinions that I cannot undertake to decide till I have the whole report before me.

    Somaliland.
    MR. DILLON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he has now received a statement from General Manning; and whether he is now in a position to make the statement as to what the immediate military operations must be.
    MR. BRODRICK: hope General Manning's despatches will be circulated by the end of the week. As I told the hon. Member on Monday† weare now in communication with General Egerton, and are carefully considering what future operations should be undertaken.
    MR. DILLON: Did the right hon. Gentleman not promise on 30th April last‡ to make a statement as to the future operations as soon as he had an opportunity of considering General Manning's despatches.
    MR. BRODRICK: I cannot make a statement about the future operations until after the communications with General Egerton have enabled the Government to come to a conclusion.
    MR. DILLON: Will the Government announce their intention before Parliament adjourns?
    MR. BRODRICK: That must depend upon whether the information we receive from General Egerton enables us to come to a decision.
    † See (4) Debates, cxxv., 1141.
    ‡ See (4) Debates, cxxi., 1004.
    SIR WILFRID LAWSON: What is the ultimate object of those military operations?
    MR. BRODRICK: I think the hon. Member must know very well that the ultimate object is to prevent the Mullah front raiding our tribes, and so establishing disorder in the part of the country under our protection.

    Native Labour in South Africa.
    MR. SYDNEY BUXTON (Tower Hamplets, Poplar): I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether a Royal Commission has been appointed in South Africa to inquire into the question of the alleged deficiency of native labour; and, if so, will he state who are the members of the Commission and the terms of reference.
    SIR CHARLES DILKE: Is there not a Transvaal Commission as well?
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN, Birmingham, W.): The right hon. Baronet will see that my answer covers his Question. There is no question of a Royal Commission, but there is a local Transvaal Commission recently appointed and an Inter-colonial Commission to be appointed in accordance with the resolution of the Bloemfontein Conference, which will meet at an early date, as to the membership of which I can only refer to my reply to the right hon. Member for the Forest of Dean Division on the 21st inst.† I have not yet received front Lord Milner the names of the members of the local Commission nor the enact terms of reference.

    Hong Kong—Calf Lymph Supplies.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies, seeing that there is a public vaccine station at Hong-Kong, will he state why public vaccinators have to obtain supplies of calf lymph from Tonkin or Japan.
    MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I am not aware of the necessity referred to by the hon. Member.
    † See (4) Debates, cxxv., 1309.
    MR. WEIR: Why has the vaccination station been closed?
    MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I am not aware of it.

    Sanitary Conditions of Hong-Kong.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the recommendations contained in the report of the experts who were deputed to visit Hong-Bong for the purpose of inquiring into the sanitary condition of the colony have been only partially accepted by the Government of Hong-Kong; and, seeing that the recommendations have been materially modified in the Bill relating to public health and buildings which was recently passed by the Legislative Council, will he state whether the experts had an opportunity of reporting as to how far the terms of the Rill will meet the difficulties on which they were originally asked to report.
    MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I am aware that the new Public Health and Building Ordinance of Hong-Kong does not embody all the suggestions made by Professor Simpson and Mr. Chadwick: and I am in correspondence with the Governor upon the subject.

    Government Bacteriologist at Hong-Kong.
    MR WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that it is the practice of the Government bacteriologist at Hong-Kong to demand a fee of twenty-five dollars from private individuals for the examination of any bird or animal suspected of having died of plague; and, if so, will arrangements be made for no fees to be charged by a public medical officer when plague is shown to he the cause of death.
    MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I have no information, and shall be glad to receive privately from the hon. Member the authority on which he makes the suggestion.
    MR. WEIR: I will supply it to the right hon. Gentleman. He has not answered the last part of my Question.
    MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: Until I have the facts which the hon. Gentleman has promised me I cannot say what course I shall take.

    India—Reduced Fares for Members of Parliament.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India, seeing that a Committee has recently been appointed to report on questions relating to the mail service with India, and certain questions in regard to the cost of passages of officers and Civil servants, will the question of securing reduced passage fares for Members of Parliament be considered.
    THE SECTRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Lord GEORGE HAMILTON) Middlesex, Ealing): No.
    MR. WEIR: Then do I understand the noble Lord to say Members of Parliament are not to have an opportunity of visiting India on the same terms as officers of the Army and Navy?
    [No answered was returned.]

    Indian Cavalry—The Abolition of the Lance.
    COLONEL LEGGE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he has yet received any communication from the Indian Government with regard to the abolition of the lance in the Indian cavalry.
    LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: The Government of India have recently sanctioned the disuse of the lance by the cavalry of the Queen's Own Corps of Guides, but I have no information indicating that it is proposed to abolish the lance in other regiments of Indian cavalry.

    India and the South African Garrison.
    SIR HENRY FOWLER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether the proposal to charge the Indian Revenues with a proportion of the cost of the troops to be kept in South Africa has been approved of by him in Council; and whether the proposal, with such approval, has been forwarded to the Government of India.
    LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: As I stated in reply to a Question put to me yesterday, this proposal has been considered by me in Council and has been referred to the Government of India for an expression of their opinion. Until that opinion has been received, no final decision will be arrived at by Secretary of State in Council.

    Indian Military Charges.
    MR. LUNDON: On behalf of the hon. Member for the St. Patrick Division of Dublin, I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been called to the fact that India in future will have to pay £786,000 annually for military charges which Lord Curzon has stated that the Government of India has not asked for and does not approve; and, seeing that this increased expenditure arises as a result of the South African War, and that the protest of the government of India, contained in Lord Curzon's telegram of March, 1902, was not submitted to the arbitrator, whether the case of the Indian taxpayers will be re-considered
    LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: I am aware of the fact stated in the first clause of the Question, but I am unable to accept the hon. Member's views as to the cause which has made the increased expenditure necessary. The statement in the last clause of the sentence is incorrect. The Viceroy's telegram of the 8th of March was included among the papers submitted to the Lord Chief Justice.

    Presents for Indian Princes.
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether the rule is still in operation precluding Indian officials front the acceptance in their private capacity of valuable gifts from the princes and chiefs of India, and, if not, when has that rule been abrogated; and whether this rule, if still in existence, is binding on the Governor-General of India in common with other officials, and, if there be any exception in his case, on what grounds is the exception based.
    LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: The rules forbid the acceptance of presents by Indian officials of all ranks except with the express sanction of the Governor-General in Council. These rules do not apply to the exchange of presents between high officials and native chiefs in their ceremonial intercourse.
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Has not the Governor-General in his private capacity accepted a valuable present from the Maharajah of Benares.
    LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: I have no information on that subject.
    MR GIBSON BOWLES:Are the presents thus received always sold for the benefit of the Government?
    LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: Yes.
    SIR J. FERGUSSON: And when a present is received from an Indian prince or chief, one of equal Value is made to him.
    LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: Yes, there is always an interchange of presents on ceremonial occasions.
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: The money derived front the sale of the presents being paid in to the Treasury.

    Congo Natives—Protection Commission.
    SIR CHARLES DILKE: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been C called to the references in the Belgian Chamber of Representatives to his statement concerning the Natives Protection Commission appointed by the Congo Government in 1896; and whether he will furnish the House with any information he may have received concerning the alleged meetings and Reports of the Commission.
    THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS LORD CRANBORNE, Rochester): My attention has been called to the references in the Belgian Chamber mentioned by the right hon. Baronet. The words I used in this House scarcely justified the description which was given of them. There is

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    no objection to laying all the information we have upon the Table, or I will send it privately to the right hon. Baronet if that would be sufficient.

    Russia and the Afghan Frontier.
    SIR CHARLES DILKE: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether there has been any further communication with Russia as to Afghanistan since his reply of 20th October last as to the proposal of Russia to establish direct relations with Afghanistan in respect to frontier matters.
    LORD CRANBORNE: Further communications have passed on this subject with the Russian Government, but I am not at present in a position to give the House any information with regard to them.

    Permanent Sugar Commission—British Representatives.
    MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, in what capacity have Sir H. G. Bergne, Mr. T. J. Pittar, Mr. G. Martineau, Mr. E. C. Ozanne, and Mr. A. Pearson, respectively, taken part in the proceedings of the Permanent Sugar Commission at Brussels; by whom were they respectively appointed to take such part; what salary and what sum for expenses is paid or to be paid to each of them; and in what Vote or Votes are such salaries or expenses to be found.
    LORD CRANBORNE: Sir H. G. Bergne acted as British delegate; the other gentlemen as assistant delegates. They were appointed by the Secretary of State. Sir H. Bergne is receiving pay at the rate of £400 a year (in addition to his pension) and Mr. Martineau a retaining fee of £300 for one year. Both appointments are for one year only. No salaries have been assigned to Mr. Pittar and Mr. Pearson in addition to their salaries as Commissioner of Customs and principal clerk in the Colonial Office respectively. With the exception of Mr. Ozanne (who is paid by the India Office) each of the above gentlemen have received travelling and subsistence allowances during absence
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    from this country. The above sums are paid from the Diplomatic Vote, sub-head Special Missions.
    MR. GIBSON BOWLESasked if there was any precedent for paying a salary to a pensioned official under such circumstances?
    LORD CRANBORNEreplied that a full salary was not paid—the pension was taken into account.

    British Policy in Egypt.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the policy of His Majesty's Government in regard to Egypt is still as indicated in Lord Granville's despatch to Sir Evelyn Baring, of 4th January, 1884, to the effect that, in important questions where the administration and safety of Egypt are at stake, it should be made clear to Egyptian Ministers and Governors of Provinces that His Majesty's Government must insist on the adoption of the policy which they recommend, and that it will be necessary that those Ministers who do not follow this course should cease to hold their offices.
    LORD CRANBORNE: There is no change in the policy of His Majesty's Government with regard to Egyptian administration.

    Taxation Statistics.
    MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state what is the amount of taxation, excluding sums derived from the post offices, per head of the population in the United States, Germany, and the United Kingdom.
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. RITCHIE, Croydon): The amount of taxation raised by Imperial officers for Imperial and local purposes in the United Kingdom per head of population was £2 9s. 6d. for 1898–9, which was the last normal year, and is estimated at £3 2s. 4d. for the current year, which still hears some expenditure connected with the war. Figures purporting to give the per capita calculation for the United States and Germany are published in various works

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    of reference, but I think the great difference between the financial systems of the different countries makes the comparison very misleading.

    British Steamers for East Africa.
    MR. EVELYN CECIL: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether, in accordance with the opinion expressed by the Steamship Subsidies Committee, the establishment of a direct British line to East Africa has been favourably considered; and whether tenders will be shortly invited.
    THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN, Worcestershire, E.): The subject is under consideration, and I am not in a position to announce any decision.

    Fiscal Inquiry—Reciprocity Treaties.
    MR. NORMAN: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will give examples of goods from foreign countries entering other foreign countries under reciprocity treaties on more favourable terms than similar British goods enter those countries.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR, Leeds, Central): The information asked for will be included in the Return ordered by the House on the 2nd instant. The Return will be issued as soon as possible.

    Trade Organisations and the Inquiry.
    SIR CHARLES MCLAREN: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether any information is being asked for by his Department from the Chambers of Commerce, trade societies, and trades' unions of the United Kingdom as to the effect of preferential tariffs and differential duties upon the interests and the trades they represent.
    MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The answer is in the negative.
    SIR CHARLES MCLAREN: May I ask whether, considering the importance of the subject, the right hon. Gentleman will take steps to see that this is done.
    MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I think it would be very undesirable to address questions on this subject to Chambers of Commerce.
    SIR CHARLES MCLAREN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the trades unions and Chambers of Commerce have been considering the subject and have passed resolutions.
    MR. GERALD BALFOUR: That is a very different thing from the Government putting official questions to Chambers of Commerce.

    Lascars on British Vessels.
    SIR MANCHERJEE BHOWNAGGREE: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the unanimous Report of the Mercantile Marine Committee, presided over by Sir Francis Jenne, in favour of the continuance of the employment of Lascars on British vessels, he intends to take any steps to remove the difficulties thrown in the way of such employment by the setting aside, in virtue of a judicial decision given on that point, of the provision as to space contained in the legislation of the Government of India.
    MR. GERALD BALFOUR: Lascars on British ships running to the United Kingdom are in exactly the same position in the matter of the space to be allotted to them as other British seamen, and I do not see my way to propose the legislation which would he necessary to give effect to the suggestion of my hon. friend.

    Destruction of Fish at Billingsgate.
    MR. DOUGHTY: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he has received any reply to his inquiry from the Fishmongers' Company on the subject of the destruction of fish food during the summer season; and whether, seeing that the fish so destroyed is what is known as immature fish and such as the Fishmongers' Company and the trade have constantly urged Parliament by legislation to make it an illegal act to offer for sale, he will introduce legislation on the subject at an early date.
    MR. GERALD BALFOUR: In reply to my inquiries the Fishmongers' Company informed me that the fish destroyed last year at Billingsgate was only about one half per centum of the whole amount received at the market, and that, as stated in my hon. friend's Question, the greater proportion of the fish so destroyed was immature fish. As my hon. friend is aware, a Bill prohibiting the sale of immature fish was introduced by the President of the Board of Trade in 1900, but it was decided by the Committee to whom the Bill was referred that it would not be expedient to pass the Bill without further inquiry and investigation. Having regard to the international investigations which are being conducted, and to the proposed transfer of the fishery branch to the Board of Agriculture, I am not in a position to promise any legislation on the subject.

    Non-Provided School Managers.
    MR. MANSFIELD: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Education will he say how many non-provided school managers have received a copy of the Draft Final Order No. 194; whether all the persons who have, or will elect, or be elected representative managers will have to fulfil the conditions relating to qualified persons and qualified subscribers; and will he say whether the persons elected as managers must also be qualified subscribers; and, if so, what course will he taken in electing managers where there are no qualified subscribers.
    THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Sir WILLIAM ANSON, Oxford University): Copies of the Draft Final Order have been sent to all the Managers of the Schools named in the Second Schedule. The representative managers must be "qualified persons" within the meaning of Clause 6 of the Order, but they need not be "qualified subscribers" within the meaning of Clause 7. The electors of representative managers must be "qualified subscribers" but need not be "qualified persons." By the second paragraph of Clause 5, in the event of there being less than eight qualified subscribers, the representative managers are to be co-opted by the other foundation managers.

    Building in the Island of Lewis.
    Mr. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate if ho will state the number of houses which have been erected in the Island of Lewis under the by-laws as to the regulation of buildings which were made by the Lewis District Committee of the County Council of Ross and Cromarty, and approved by the Local Government Board in December, 1900; and will he say how many fever-stricken or insanitary houses in the island have been destroyed by order of the local authorities.
    The LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAY, Buteshire): Thirty houses have been erected under the bylaws referred to by the hon. Member. One insanitary fever-stricken house was destroyed with the owner's consent. No house has been destroyed by order of the local authority.

    Congestion in the Highlands.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, in view of the fact that the advertisements of the Congested Districts Board intimating that they were prepared to negotiate for the purchase of land for the purpose of the Congested Districts Act have not resulted in the offer of suitable properties, will he state what steps the Government propose to take to acquire land for the migration of crofters and cottars and the extension of crofters' holdings.
    MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: The Congested Districts Board are at all times prepared to negotiate for the acquisition of land for the purposes mentioned by the hon. Member. No new steps are contemplated by the Government.

    Bee-keeping in Ireland.
    MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Attorney-General for Ireland whether any Bill has been drafted by the Department of Agriculture, or whether any proposal has been submitted to the Department, by which powers would be conferred enabling the proper authorities to stamp out the disease of foul brood in bees, in view of the fact that the necessity exists for prompt action if this industry is to be preserved.
    THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. ATKINSON Londonderry, N.)The Department has not drafted a Bill on this subject, but it is in correspondence with the English Board of Agriculture wits a view to the preparation of a Bill. My right hon. friend has already stated that it is not practicable to introduce such legislation this session.

    Police and Public at Ardrahan.
    MR. DUFFY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that at the Petty Sessions Court held at Ardrahan, County Galway, recently, a number of peasants were summoned by the police for disorderly conduct; that it was sworn to the satisfaction of the magistrates that a police man named Lyons provoked the row by hustling the people about when under the influence of drink; that the magistrates adjudicating censured the police for their action on the occasion, and dismissed all the summonses except in the case of two men who admitted they were provoked into committing an assault by the action of Lyons; and, if so, whether, in view of the relations existing between Sergeant Walker, Constable Lyons, and the people of the district, he will take steps to have them transferred to some other district.
    MR. ATKINSON (for Mr. WYNDHAM)The prosecutions referred to arose out of a disturbance at a fair near Ardrahan on the 22nd ultimo. Constable Lyons was assaulted on the occasion, and was six days non-effective from the injuries he received. Sergeant Walker and another constable who went to his assistance were also assaulted. Two of the defendants, who had been remanded in custody for periods of 14 and 4 days respectively, were fined in sums of 20s. each and costs. The cases against the other defendants were dismissed without prejudice. It was alleged that Constable Lyons was under the influence of drink, but the allegation was not borne out by the evidence. The action of the police was not censured by the magistrate; Sergeant Walker was complimented by the solicitor for the accused for the fair manner in which he gave his evidence, and the, attack upon the police was
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    admitted by one of the accused to have been preconcerted. The reply to the concluding inquiry is in the negative.
    MR. DUFFY: The right hon. Gentle I man says the constable was non-effective for six days after the assault. Is he aware that on the day after the assault he was well enough to escort the accused to Galway Prison, a distance of fourteen miles?
    MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! It is I impossible to discuss these disputed matters of detail by Question and Answer.
    MR. DUFFY: Seeing that the con stable was censured, will the right hon. Gentleman take the latter part of my Question into consideration.
    MR. ATKINSON: I have said they were not censured.

    Labourers' Cottages in the Listowel Union.
    MR. FLAVIN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the total number of labourers' cottages built in the Listowel Union, the I number in course of erection, and also the number at present proposed to be built.
    MR. ATKINSON (for Mr. WYNDHAM):: On the 31st March last 255 cottages had been built, and twenty-nine more were in course of erection in this union. The District Council proposes to make a scheme for additional cottages, but the number has not yet been decided upon. I refer the hon. Member to Return No. 198 of this session, which will give him all the information he desires.

    Fiscal Inquiry—Taxation on Food.
    MR. WINSTON CHURCHILL: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the Secretary of State for the Colonies has submitted any definite proposals to the Cabinet to serve as a basis for the fiscal inquiry upon which they are now engaged; whether, in order to give a preference to the colonies, these proposals include a tax on bread, and to what extent; whether they include a tax on meat (including

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    bacon), butter, cheese, eggs, and fruit, and, in each case, to what extent.
    THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester, E.): I think my hon. friend will agree with me that this is a Question which clearly I ought not to answer. The inquiry, as I have stated more than once, is a Cabinet inquiry, and it would be an evil precedent to give details of the manner in which that inquiry is to be conducted.
    MR. WINSTON CHURCHILL: Will the right hon. gentleman give an assurance that no tax on beef or mutton is contemplated?
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: My hon. friend seems hardly to realise that we are making an inquiry. Until we know what the result of inquiry is, it would surely be premature to answer that question.
    MR. WINSTON CHURCHILL: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman how we can participate in the inquiry if we are not informed of its scope and of its nature?
    [No answer was returned.]
    MR. WINSTON CHURCHILL: May I ask whether the Colonial Secretary can give us any information?
    [No answer was returned.]
    MR. WILLIAM REDMOND,: Ask his brother Arthur.

    Chambers of Commerce and the Fiscal Inquiry.
    MR. MANSFIELD: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury have any steps been taken, or will any steps be taken, to place before the Chambers of Commerce of this country the particulars of the inquiry into the fiscal policy of this country, with a view of securing the opinion of commercial interests upon that part of our fiscal policy upon which the Government desires information.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Of course the representations of the Chambers of Com-
    84
    merce will be carefully considered by His Majesty's Government. In addition to that, I think it is extremely probable that specific questions will be addressed to them.

    Industrial Methods.
    MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the inquiry now proceeding into the fiscal policy is solely, or is chiefly, for the purpose of obtaining statistical information; whether any investigation is being made into the extent to which the success of American and German manufacturers is due to the excellence of the machinery and industrial methods employed; and, if so, whether the results of such investigation will be laid before the House.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I have dwelt at length on the general objects of the inquiry. I have nothing to add to my previous statements.

    Colonial Legislative Independence.
    MR. BLACK: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the Government has determined that as a condition of their enjoying preferential treatment from the mother country the self-governing colonies shall be called upon to surrender some of the independence at present possessed by them as regards fiscal, industrial, or commercial legislation.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The answer is in the negative.

    Government Departments and the Fiscal Inquiry.
    MR. NORMAN: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if he will state whether the permanent heads of Departments of State have been requested to prepare statements upon different questions arising in the fiscal inquiry now proceeding; and, if so, whether these reports will ultimately be supplied to Members.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: As I have before stated, the Government are making use, as it is obvious they must do, of the various Departments. More than that I cannot say.

    Malta.
    MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he can arrange to set down the Vote for the Colonial Office at such a time as to afford an opportunity of discussing the suspension of the constitution of Malta.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I cannot make any definite promise on this point, but probably the Colonial Office Vote will be the first order this day week.

    Artillery Volunteer Armaments.
    MR. SEYMOUR ORMSBY-GORE: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if any opportunity will be given this session of discussing the rearmament of the Artillery Volunteers.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Yes, Sir, I hope an opportunity will be found before Supply closes for putting down this and other Army Votes for discussion.

    Imperial Defence.
    MR. CATHCART WASON: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if he will furnish an account of the total cost of Imperial Defence, including India and the Crown Colonies, and excluding the self-governing colonies; also the total cost of Diplomatic and Consular Service to Great Britain and Ireland.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I think it is possible to supply an Answer to the hon. Gentleman, but it would he more convenient to put it down as an unstarred Question or to move for the information in the form of a Return, which would of course be granted.

    The Death of the Pope.
    MR. WILLIAM REMOND: I desire to ask the Prime Minister, in accordance with private notice, whether the flagon the Victoria Tower of Parliament has been half-masted as a mark of respect to the memory of His Holiness, Leo XIII., following precedent in similar cases in the past, and as has been done with regard to the American Flag, by order of-President Roosevelt, all over the United States.
    MR. VICTOR CAVENDISHrose to answer the Question, whereupon—
    MR. WILLIAM REDMONDsaid: As this is a matter of international interest, courtesy, and sentiment, I think I may claim an answer from the Prime Minister.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I have asked my hon. friend to reply.
    MR. VICTOR CAVENDISH: The answer is in the negative. There has been no rule in these matters, and I can find no precedent which exactly applies. The question of making rules concerning the flying of the flag at half-mast will be considered.
    MR. MALCOLM (Suffolk, Stow-market): As this mark of respect was paid by us to the memory of the King of Italy, will my hon. friend consult Lord Windsor and the Prime Minister as to the advisability of creating a precedent to enable similar tribute to be paid to the spiritual head of a Church to whom spiritual obedience is given by some millions of His Majesty's subjects?
    MR. VICTOR CAVENDISH: I shall be glad to bring this subject before the Commissioner of Works, but it is impossible to make any statement on the subject at the present moment.
    MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: In view of the fact that in every part of the world, and especially in every part of the English-speaking world, the greatest respect was shown to the memory of his holiness, will the Prime Minister consider the advisability of giving the mark of respect I have signified on the day at least of the funeral?
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The hon. Member, I hope, will recognise that this is not a question of respect for the late Pope, the respect for whom, I believe, is universal. It does not turn upon that it all. It turns upon the precedent which we ought to establish with regard to all such cases, and the precedent must evidently have effect, whether the individual in whose memory the flag is lowered is I respected or not. It turns not in respect

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    of his personal character, but on his position. We must have some general rule applicable to all such cases irrespective of sentiments we may feel in a particular case. Otherwise we shall be involved in constant difficulties at future periods.
    MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Is the right hon. gentleman aware of the fact that on all Government buildings throughout the whole of the colonies of the British Empire this mark of respect was paid without the slightest hesitation.
    [No answer was returned.]
    MR. SLOAN: In dealing with this very important matter, will the Prime Minister consider the advisability of trying to induce the Corporation of Dublin to fly the flag on top of the City Hall in honour of the King's visit?
    [No answer was returned.]

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Will the Prime Minister tell us what business he proposes to take to-morrow and next week?
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I propose to put down as the first order to-morrow the Second Reading of the Military Lands Bill. That. I think, will meet with general approval. The second order will be the Naval Works Bill, Committee, and the third order the Employment of Children Bill. I propose, as at present advised, to put down the Second Reading of the South African Loans Bill as the first order on Monday. On Tuesday I shall propose to suspend the 12 o'clock Rule, and the rest of that day and the whole of Wednesday will be devoted to the Second Reading of the Sugar Bounties Bill.
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I would like to remind the right hon. Gentleman of what was said the other day as to the undesirability that the debate on the Sugar Bounties Bill should be curtailed by the discussion of the Motion to suspend the 12 o'clock Rule. It is also exceedingly undesirable that the debate should be taken at an hour when it cannot be fully repotted.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I have endeavoured to make an arrangement which I hope will be convenient to the House. My original idea was that the morning and evening sittings of one day would give adequate time for the discussion of the Sugar Bounties Bill, the principle of which has been admitted.
MR. LOUGH: No, no!
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The principle of which has been admitted by a Resolution of the House passed last session. But I understood that the right hon. Gentleman's view was that one day would not be sufficient. I have endeavoured to meet that view by saying that, although I propose to suspend the 12 o clock Rule on Tuesday, I do not propose to confine the debate on the Second Reading of the Sugar Bounties Bill to that day. I shall be glad to give the whole of Wednesday, in addition to the part of Tuesday not occupied by the discussion on the Motion to suspend the 12 o'clock Rule. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will feel that that goes a long way to meet his views.
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I do not know how far it goes, but it certainly does not meet my views, as a large part of the first day will be occupied in discussing questions that will be raised on the Motion to suspend the 12 o'clock Rule.
MR. LOUGH: The right hon. Gentleman really gains nothing by that plan. Why not take the Bill first and the suspension of the 12 o'clock Rule debate later; the discussion would not be unduly prolonged.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: If hon. Gentlemen do not wish to discuss the Motion for the suspension of the 12 o'clock Rule, which I have put off until a late period in the session, the whole of the two days can be devoted to the Second Reading of the Sugar Convention Bill.

MUNICIPAL TRADING.
Report, with Minutes of Evidence, from the joint Committee, brought up, and read.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.[No. 270.]

SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).
Mr. HALSEYreported from the Committee of Selection: That they had discharged the following Members from the Standing Committee on Trade (including Agriculture and (Fishing), Shipping, and Manufactures; Mr. Lonsdale, Mr. O'Malley, Mr. Kilbride, Mr. Flavin, and Mr. O'Mara; and had appointed in substitution: Sir Charles Cayzer, Mr. Young, Mr, J. P. Farrell, Mr. William M'Killop, and Mr. Boland.
Mr. HALSEY further reported from the Committee of Selection: That they had discharged the following Member form the Standing Committee on Law and Courts, of Justice, and Legal Procedure: Mr. Munro Ferguson; and had appointed in substitution: Mr. Haldane.
Reports to lie upon the Table.

PUBLIC PETITIONS COMMITTEE.
Seventh Report brought up, and read; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
MERCHANT SHIPPING ACT (1894) AMENDMENT BILL.
"To amend The Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, with respect to Passenger and Emigrant Ships, and with respect to safety," presented by Mr. Runciman; supported by Sir Charles Cayzer, Sir Robert Ropner, Mr. Rea, and Colonel Denny; to be read a second time upon Monday 3rd August and to be printed. [Bill 295.]

SALE OF BUTTER BILL.
Reported, with an Amended Title, from the standing Committee on Trade, &c.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 269]
Minutes of the proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed. [No. 269.]
Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 293.]

THE HOUSING OF THE WORKING CLASSES.
THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. WALTER LONG, Bristol, S.): In asking leave to
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introduce a Bill to amend the law relating to the housing of the working classes, I should explain that the measure is the redemption of the promise I made during the debate on the king's Speech to deal with some of the, minor points in regard to which difficulties have arisen under the existing Housing of the Working Classes Acts. The Bill proposes the extension of the period of repayment of loans from 60 to 80 years, a discretion being still reserved to the Local Government Board as to particular cases. The period of 80 years will apply to loans for the purchase of freehold land, but a shorter period, according to the discretion of the Department, will be applied to loans for buildings. It is also proposed by Order in Council to transfer to the Local Government Board the duties which are now divided between the Home Office and the Local Government Board. Where re housing obligations are cast upon local authorities or individual owners, the Standing Orders which now have to be inserted in each individual Bill will be made applicable to all case under the Housing Acts. The central authority will be empowered to act where the local authority fails to move when a recommendation has been made by the medical officer of health. An endeavour is made to improve the procedure for approving schemes. If and order proposed to take land by compulsion and no owner concerned objects, that order will have the effect of a Provisional Order or Act of Parliament without any further procedure. But if there is any objection, the order will follow the ordinary course of a Provisional Order Bill and will have to receive the assent of Parliament. It is proposed to invest the Local Government Board with power to modify schemes presented by local authorities. At present the Department possesses no such power, and the absence of it frequently tends to great delay and difficulties. The powers with regard to closing orders are strengthened, and the difficulties which now exist with reference to case of demolition of condemned buildings are dealt with. At present the cost of the condemned buildings sometimes renders it impossible for a local authority to proceed in the matter, and by the Bill it is proposed to give the local authority the power to recover from the owner the excess of cost

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after the sale of materials as they would recover a civil debt. The local authority is also placed in the position of a landlord in cases of condemned buildings or buildings taken over by the local authority. The absence front the local authority of the powers of a landlord to eject has often proved a serious difficulty, and the Bill proposes to invest it with these powers of eviction. Power is also given under the Bill to local authorities to provide shops as a part of the provision of dwelling or lodging accommodation. Various other minor matters are dealt with in the Bill, which it is hoped will remove the practical difficulties which have been found to exist. I introduce the Bill as a modest and, I hope, non-controversial measure, as a step in the right direction, and I trust the House will consider it in that spirit, and enable us to place it on the Statute-book.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Law relating to the Housing of the Working Classes."—(Mr. Walter Long.)
MR. EUGENE WASON: Will the Bill apply to Scotland?
MR. WALTER LONG: No.
Question agreed to. Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Walter Long, Mr. Attorney-General, and Mr. Grant Lawson.

HOUSING OF THE WORKING CLASSES (NO. 2) BILL
"To amend the Law relating to the Housing of the Working Classes," presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 296.]
SUPPLY [19TH ALLOTTED DAY.]
Considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
[Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the chair.

CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1903–4, CLASS II.
Motion made, and question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £34,887, be
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granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March 1901, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of His Majesty's Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs."
SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid the recent Royal visit to Paris, and President Loubet's visit to this country, as well as the speech made by the Prime Minister on the previous night to the French Senators and Deputies under that very roof, appeared to him to be strangely inconsistent with the policy which the Government had on the whole pursued towards Germany during the years that they had been in power. He wished to call the attention of the House, as an example of the extraordinary shiftiness and variety of their foreign policy to their relations with Germany which had brought out these startling changes in a most formidable form, in which they had been extremely damaging to this country. After they got their great majority in 1895—a majority which seemed to be entirely disappearing in another place—the Government's policy towards Germany was apparently one of seeking for a military alliance with that Power, and of constituting ourselves virtually members of the Triple Alliance. That was really a continuance of the policy of Lord Salisbury between 1886 and 1892. It was, although he believed the people of this country were opposed to it, and that it was contrary to the interests of the country, a perfectly intelligible policy. In the Zanzibar cession, the Heligoland cession, and in our conduct with regard to military attaches at foreign Courts, as well as in Lord Salisbury's language when he spoke of "good tidings of great joy," we showed that we showed that we considered ourselves members of a Triple Alliance. That policy was in itself a reversal of Disraeli's policy, who on two occasions refused proffers of a military alliance between Germany and this country. One very prominent member of the Cabinet made two great speeches in the country, in one of which he pointed to the possibility of an alliance with Germany being in our interest, and in the other of which, with-

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out specifically naming Germany, he said it was in the essential interest of this country that we should have a definite alliance with a great military power. That policy was continued for a long time; but since then, upon various excuses, some prominent Members of the Government had used language of absolute ferocity towards Germany. There had been a change backwards and forwards so sharp and startling that he could only explain it on the hypothesis that there was no settled foreign policy on the part of the Government, and that they never really thought out those great considerations which lay at the base of all the foreign relations of Great Britain. Within a few months after the Government had encouraged the use of extraordinary language towards Germany, there came the startling examples of what he should call cringing to that Power in connection with the search for contraband on a German vessel, for which we not only apologised, but made a present of a service of plate, and in the case of Venezuela and the Baghdad Railway. In regard to Venezuela, the whole country, irrespective of Party, now recognised that the course pursued was contrary to what ought to he the keystone of our policy—good relations with the United States. Those examples came very shortly after we had had a warning to mind our own business and not to commit acts derogatory to the dignity of this country in the course that Germany took towards us with regard to the Anglo-German Agreement concluded at the time of the General Election of 1900. That agreement was paraded by the Government, incredible though it might seem, as being a sort of alliance with Germany against Russia in regard to China, as though Germany was ever likely to depart from what had always been her settled policy—an alliance with Russia winch would guarantee her possession of the territories wrested from France.
THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Lord CRANBORNE, Rochester)asked by whom that claim was made.
SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid it was so paraded in all the speeches after the General Election.
LORD CRANBORNE: Not by me.
SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid No, not by the noble Lord, who was most careful in the language he used; but in all the speeches of hon. Gentlemen opposite it was claimed that the policy of the Government had triumphantly concluded this agreement with Germany, which placed our policy in China on a perfectly satisfactory footing. Immediately after that agreement was signed Count von Billow used language which was contemptuous to this country. Whatever might have been the real nature of that agreement—that meaningless agreement—the explanation was diametrically opposed to our interests, and it was put before the German Parliament as a triumph over our view. Immediately after that policy had been pursued we cringed to Germany in the eases of Venezuela and the Bagdad Railway. He would not go into depths of Chinese policy which the Committee, he thought, had very often been somewhat tired of in the past. He would only say that the present Government had constantly put before the country two alternative policies in China. One was the policy of the open door, and the other was to maintain our sphere of influence in the Yang-tzse Valley. The first-mentioned meant the open door in Manchuria, and in the territories where Germany mid Russia were trading, and when that did not succeed the Government fell back on the sphere-of-influence doctrine, and they put before the House the great things which were likely to he done in the Yang-tzse Valley. So far from helping us in the Yang-tzse sphere, Count von Billow had acted as if the meaning of that agreement was that we expressly renounced that we had any special interests in the Yang-tzse Valley. Count von Billow's view had undoubtedly prevailed in practice, and that was the real test, because the great lines of railway were being constructed at the present moment by those who in Chinese policy were hostile to ourselves. The great line cutting through China from North to South had gone into unfriendly hands. When he said unfriendly hands, that had two meanings. It meant that the whole of the material for the construction of the lines was brought from foreign and not from British sources, and it meant that we should he exposed

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to difficulties in regard to our trade when these lines begin to work.
Sir Claude Macdonald gave the Government encouragement. The noble Lord read to the House triumphantly on two occasions Sir Claude Macdonald's despatch, stating that we did not come out second best with regard to the railways in Chine. On 16th June this year there was a debate in the Lords on this question, and on that occasion it was shown that the Pekin Syndicate, and the British and Chinese Corporation, which represented the largest British trading firms in China, were working in agreement with each other; and these bodies, representing all British interests concerned, had not succeeded in obtaining the very simple concession they asked as necessary to their trade. He meant, of course, the line coming down to a point opposite Nankin—a line essential to the coal and iron trade in the future. The noble Lord told the House that the Government were insisting on obtaining the concession. The Germans were setting up a claim not only to make all the railways in the province of Shantung, which was sometimes more than the sphere, but a claim over the railway construction in the Hinterland of Shantung, and to bring the coal and iron down the valley of the Yellow River to Kiao Chou, the seizure of which originally by Germany was the signal for all those terrible events which happened in China contrary to our interests. German influence at Pekin had been used steadily against our interests and had tended to bring the coal and iron trade of China down to their own port. The noble Lord haul told the House for years that the Government were insisting on obtaining a British line opposite Nankin, but no advance whatever had been made towards obtaining it. The great lines across the Yang-tzse Valley had been made against our interests, and Russian and German influence had been used against our views. It was stated that the Canton-Hankow portion of the road was to be made by an American syndicate. He thought it would have proved to our interest that it should be made by American hands, but this concession haul passed into the hands of Belgians, a result which again had been brought about by German influence being used at Pekin in a manner hostile to our views. The noble Lord had told the House on several occasions the circum-
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stances attending the evacuation of Shanghai. There also German influence was used in a manner hostile to ours. The German Government addressed to the Chinese Government a note which, instead of conciliating us, was calculated to destroy the privileged position in Shanghai, which by reason of the over-whelming greater importance of our settlement there we had always enjoyed in that pat of China. There was a matter which the noble Lord regarded as one of the great triumphs of our policy, and he had again and again repeated it to the House. He told them repeatedly that the successor of Sir Robert Hart, would be a British nominee as long as British trade predominant in China. The Pekin correspondent of The Times, who was always contradicted but whose statements had the knack of coming true after a time, told them what had taken place.
He would now deal not with hypothesis or doubtful points, but with actual facts. It was a fact that at this moment in Manchuria and Mongolia German traders and German commercial travellers were able to travel, while our commercial travellers were not able to travel, and our traders were not able to settle and carry on trade. Through the good offices of their Consul in Vladivostock Germans were allowed that privilege, and they were setting up their houses. Our people were refused leave to reside there, and only persons supposed to be friendly to the Russian Government were allowed to travel there. The notion that we could get German help against Russia was a dream which had constantly disturbed our policy, led the Government to make agreements, and made members of the Government give triumphant and, as he thought, foolish speeches in the country about what they had secured. It was pretty generally recognised now that this notion of a German alliance against Russia was a dream, and it had almost disappeared, at all events, from the minds of sensible people, just as had happened in regard to the notion of another great alliance—namely, that of an Italian alliance against France, which was put forward especially by the Admiralty as almost a settled matter. What he complained of in these extraordinary shifts of Government policy—now abusing Germany and then cringing to her—was that, after their experience of German

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policy in the Yang-tzse Valley, after what had happened in the underhand conduct of Germany to us in Shanghai, after cringing to Germany in the matters of Venezuela and the Baghdad Railway, in November last at the Lord Mayor's banquet the Prime Minister alluded to these statements as "fantastic inventions." There were no words to show whether the right lion. Gentleman meant the statements in regard to Venezuela or whether he meant the statements in regard to the Baghdad railway negotiations, but as a matter of fact neither the statements made at that time as to Venezuelan or those regarding the Baghdad railway were fantastic inventions. They were exactly accurate. There was a storm of ill-feeling aroused by those transactions. His case was that the storm of popular indignation under the circumstances was quite right and wise. It was a well founded storm of popular indignation. With regard to the bearing of the Venezuela case on the Monroe doctrine, which in his belief was a British interest, it was the storm of popular disapproval and not the policy of the Government which prevented the harm that would otherwise have been done. It was the fact that the country was unanimously against the Government with regard to its criminal folly in the Venezuelan affair which was the reason that we retained the friendship of the United States. The dates in the Venezuela case were put before the House in the debate on the Address and by Lord Rosebery in another place. He thought he was justified in saying—he was quite sure he could prove it if anyone should contest the statement—that the statements as to the Venezuela dates were not fantastic inventions, but only matters of fact which were before them at the time and which the history of the subject afterwards laid before them in the Blue-books conclusively proved. The Baghdad arrangements were of some moment. The Government denied that they were Government arrangements at all. They had said that they were arrangements made between Germany and great financiers in this country of which the Government approved. These arrangements were published in this country on Saturday, 8th November,
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two days before the Government spoke of "fantastic inventions" at the Lord Mayor's banquet, and they proved to be exactly according to the statements made at that time, and what was asked by the German Emperor proved to be exactly that which the Government had agreed to, including the suggestion of the future mail contract, and all the conditions with regard to the representation of the financial interest on the governing board which were afterwards stated to this House. The Prime Minister told them that these were "imaginary negotiations," that they were "strange bargains," and that the whole story was one of "fantastic invention," although the Venezuela agreement was concluded within three days of that time and the Baghdad railway negotiations were as exposed by the hon. Member for King's Lynn.
Might he make a general observation as to the action of Germany up up to that date? Many of them had always been hostile to a permanent arrangement with Germany, because our objects and German objects were not the same. The objects of Germany were friendship with Russia and the maintenance of her conquests from France. Our greatest interest, as was said on an historical occasion by Lord Derby, was peace. He should have said, up to a few months ago, that the next greatest interest of Great Britain was free trade, in which we had no sympathy with Germany. Our objects and German objects were, therefore, not the same, and when an effort was made to set up common action where the objects were not the same, great risks were run of offending other Powers and of compromising our principles—if indeed it could be said that we had any principles at all left. These facts constituted a primâ facie case for the public distrust, which undoubtedly existed with regard to an arrangement with Germany. He, however, thought they did not in the least justify an unjust hue and cry being raised against Germany. What he complained of was that when they had cringed and allowed themselves to be hoodwinked, while they represented that they had secured a great triumph which was no triumph at all, and when public opinion had

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been excited against Germany by their own speeches, proceedings, and unwise acts, they were obliged to take advantage of that cry which they had ignobly raised. The Government appeared suddenly to have remembered Canada. They had forgotten Canada for many years, but they suddenly discovered that Canada had a grievance against Germany, and they said: "Hullo! Let us take advantage of the hue and cry against Germany, and let us put forward the grievance of Canada." In 1897 we had ourselves, on behalf of Canada, said that Canada was a fiscal entity. We admitted that in the despatch in which we denounced our old commercial treaty with Germany with our eyes open, knowing from previous experience exactly what denunciation meant. In all the Continental commercial treaties there were two columns of the tariff—one showing more-favoured treatment and the other less. They put in the first column the nations which treated them well, and in the other column the nations which treated them ill. But that was not an invariable rule. We had been put in the less-favoured column by Spain, although we did not give a preference to other nations, simply because Spain was trying to use it as a screw to induce us to change our wine duties. But Spain found that it did not pay, and she withdrew from that position without any action on our part. We denounced the commercial treaty with Germany in 1897 on behalf of Canada and, after negotiations in 1898, Germany did what France did on another occasion—she gave us the most-favoured-nation treatment by law, but she omitted Canada, of course, from that most-favoured station treatment. He said "of course" because that was the usual course which we should have expected from the language we had used as to Canada being a fiscal entity. In 1899 the Government grumbled against that action, but accepted the situation, and in 1900 we expressed our satisfaction at having obtained the most-favoured-nation treatment for the Empire as a whole, less Canada.
They did grumble in 1900, but about quite another matter. They said they were sorry about the way that Germany was treating Barbados. Barbados was a very envious ease. It promised prefer-
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ential treatment to the United States, but it had not come off. Germany put Barbados in the second column because Germany said that Barbados had promised preferential treatment to the United States. Lord-Salisbury, in a despatch, pointed out that the preference to the United States, to be granted by Barbados, depended on action by the United States which might not be taken. Now, from 1899 to 1903, nothing was said about Canada at all, and therefore he thought he was justified in saying that, after all these attempts to secure a military alliance with Germany, after all the cringing to Germany, after all that took place with regard to Venezuela, the Baghdad Railway, the Anglo-German agreement, and to China, the Government, when the howling in the country had been excited by these proceedings, suddenly discovered a tremendous grievance against Germany in regard to Canada which they had allowed to slumber for four years. We stirred up this matter. Lord Lansdowne on 2nd April, 1903, wrote—
"It would be an advantage if you could ascertain whether Germany intends to continue to deny the seine treatment to Canada."
That would have been nothing in itself, but it was the first stirring up of the question after Germany had become unpopular in this country. Then came a long despatch from Lord Lansdowne on 20th June, in which the Germans were told that—
"After having patiently waited for five years in the hope of coming to an arrangement with Germany, the Canadian Government decided that they could no longer allow the matter to sleep."
And that, therefore, they were going to put on a special surtax on German goods in addition to the preference to ourselves. He would ask the House for a moment to turn to one or two other passages in this Blue-book, which showed to some extent the surprise with which the German Government received this communication on our part. Our Ambassador in his despatch, quoted on page 29 of the Blue-book, said—
"Germany in her own colonies knows no difference between German and foreign goods."
We had told Germany ourselves, what was the obvious fact, that we had no control over the Canadian tariff and that Canada was a separate fiscal entity,

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as plainly as we could tell them anything, and the fact had never been previously denied. When they had a great and growing dominion such as Canada, which would become one of the greatest exporting countries in the world, they could not expect a great Power not to act on the powers which their law had given them to meet changes made by a separate fiscal unit of this kind. The German despatch at page 43 concluded—
"In our opinion the English view of what has passed is based in many respects upon incorrect assumptions; and the responsibility for the initiation and aggravation of the Conflict Cannot be properly laid on Germany."
He thought the very fact, as came out at Question time the day before, that Canada picked and chose within the Empire, and herself gave a trade preference to some of our colonies and refused it to others, emphasised his argument.
He was by no means friendly disposed towards Germany policy. He thought we had great grievances against Germany, most of them produced by our Government; nevertheless the Government did in a somewhat unworthy way take advantage of the cry against Germany which their own action had brought into existence. It was said, and it was given as a main ground for action by the Government, that this was a very serious matter for Canada; but Canada said the exact opposite. At the Colonial Conference, Canada said that she knew the result would be unimportant; and the Colonial Conference itself resolved that the matter "was not serious," and that "the remedy was in their own hands." How after that we could seriously complain of the action of Germany he confessed he could not see. His argument was that our interest was peace towards all, and it was contrary to the interest of this country, either on the one hand to set up this doctrine of a military alliance with Germany, against Russia, and on the other hand, to make rather unworthy appeals to public opinion which, upon this point, had been deceived by the Government itself, by making inflamed appeals to the country and by asking if we "were going to take it lying down." He had taken this ease as typical of what
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seemed to him to be the shiftiness of the policy of the Government and of their inability to put before the country a well though-out policy which would be consistent with the interests and dignity of the nation.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Item A (Salaries, Wages, and Allowances) be reduced by £100, in respect of the Salary of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs."—(Sir Charles Dilke.)
MR. GIBSON BOWLESsaid that the position of foreign affairs as they affected this country was very important. He confessed that as to definite matters of policy he agreed almost wholly with what had been said by the right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean, whose acquaintance with these matters was well known to the House. The right hon. Baronet had given what he called a typical example of the shiftiness of the policy of the Government. He would give others, though, as became a supporter of the Government, his language might not be as strong as that of the right hon. Baronet. The right hon. Baronet had truly pointed out that the people and the Press of this country had saved the Government from the worst consequences of the two stupendous blunders in Venezuela and the Baghdad Railway. That justified the Committee in assisting in discussing foreign affairs at least once a year. It was not easy always to discuss foreign affairs in this House—even the few specific matters to which he himself intended to refer. The Committee were at a great disadvantage, because the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs was in the other House, and because questions had to be addressed to a conscientious, but still subordinate, official, who could not be expected to be acquainted with all the secrets of the Cabinet. The First Lord of the Treasury stated that the Foreign Secretary would never again sit in this House; and in part fulfilment of his prophecy the right hon. Gentleman scarcely ever sat in it himself. He could not but see on the part of some members of the Government a settled purpose to deprive this

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House of its power of dealing with great questions; and to transfer that power to another quarter—although the questions agitated the people of this country and concerned its future. That was a matter to which the House of Commons would have to direct its attention. The Prime Minister shielded himself behind the new rules and personal absence; and the Committee could really get very little information on important subjects which were of interest to the House and the country. As he had said, it seemed the settled purpose of some members of the Government to transfer from this House to the other House, to the Cabinet, and to the Closet, the consideration of important questions. He did not, however, think that that would last beyond the next General Election; but, meanwhile, they were confronted with it, and they had to do the best they could, under the discouraging circumstances of an empty Treasury Bench, to discuss the important affairs of the people of this country in connection with foreign countries. He had really no complaint whatever to make of the noble Lord. He did the best he could under very difficult circumstances. The noble Lord was extremely frank; and he often admired the difficulty he felt in giving a Foreign Office answer when the facts were recalcitrant and refused to agree with the Answer. He was the more moved to sympathy, because the noble Lord had recently expressed his profound melancholy at the present situation of Hip Majesty's Government. He himself partook of that melancholy; and his was as pronounced as that of the noble Lord. He hoped, however, that the noble Lord would be able, in the course of the debate, to give an Answer to certain Questions which he proposed to address to him, and Which might, to some degree, dissipate that melancholy.
He had to call the attention of the Committee to a very serious new departure in constitutional practice which might have a serious effect on the foreign policy of the country. He read in that admirable work "The Law and Customs of the Constitution," written by one who
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was Sir William Anson, but who was now an Under Secretary—
"It is the modern practice uniformly observed by George III., and only for a short time broken by George IV., that the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs should be present at every interview between the Sovereign and a foreign minister, and so far is the Crown from taking independent action in foreign affairs that all letters addressed to the Queen and the late Prince Consort by foreign princes, or received from them, were shown to the Foreign Secretary or Prime Minister, and the same rule applies in domestic affairs."
The Committee would also remember the eloquent protest of Lord Chatham against the departure from this country of George II., when he said that a Sovereign going abroad should be attended by an English Minister, and that the contrary practice was one which Englishmen should "resist even with their bodies." Let it not be supposed for a moment that he desired to curtail the power of the Crown. On the contrary, he thought it should be constitutionally increased; he had always been the strongest advocate of the Sovereign taking his position, not merely as head of the Privy Council, but also as head of the Cabinet Council, and presiding at the latter as former Sovereigns had done. Let it not be supposed that he was in any way jealous of the power of the Crown; but Ministers were ill-advised when they advised the Sovereign to go abroad and interview foreign Sovereigns and foreign Ministers without providing that His Majesty should be accompanied, as was always the tradition and was the rule, by a Minister of the Crown, to give his colleagues information, to give the Sovereign the advice he might need, and, above all, to keep a record of the matters transacted. The recent disregard of that rule was, he thought a new and a very serious departure. If, indeed, he were told that these Royal visits were purely private, and that matters of State were not discussed, then he would be content. But he wished to ask if matters of State were discussed by His Majesty the King in the various interviews which he had with the King of Portugal, the King of Italy, and the President of the French Republic, and their Ministers. If so, were any records of such discussions kept,

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and, above all, were any engagements made of which there were records. The Committee would feel that this was a most important, although a somewhat delicate, question, and that it behoved the Committee to consider an entirely new departure which appeared to have been made in the conduct of foreign affairs.
The right hon. Baronet truly said that there was a permanent understanding between Germany and Russia. It was so, it was always so; and must always be so. It was dictated by the geographical position of the two countries. There was always a tendency on the part of the North to work down on and to overwhelm the southern countries of Europe in common action. It was so from the days of Rome down to the present. The Vandals who sacked Rome were succeeded in the same latitudes by other Vandals who would sack other Romes. It seemed to him, however, that the restless greed of statesmanship for which diplomats were said to lie abroad, was now being diverted to further portions of the earth; and that for the moment Europe was comparatively tranquil. There was, no doubt, some disquiet in the Balkans; but his belief was that it was not serious. Serious questions had, however, arisen with regard to the Dardanelles, in which our Government apparently played a rather discreditable, poor and miserable part. But he would not dwell on that. For the moment he believed a: period of quiet had arrived for Europe, which he trusted would be of long duration. The permanently threatened countries of Europe—Turkey, Spain, and especially Holland—might, he hoped, for the present possess their souls in peace. Russia was quiescent. France, Austria and Italy were all engaged in their own affairs. The only country that was aggressive, and always agressive, was Germany. Germany now held, and always had held, the character of seeking to obtain the land of other nations, sometimes by alliance, sometimes by other and less defensible means. It seemed to him that this country was the victim of this policy which had always animated Germany from the time when she was covered with forests, and animated her
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now when she was covered—well, with professors. The great settlement of Europe arrived at in 1815 was broken up by the aggressive action of Germany. There was the attack on Denmark in 1864, followed by the attack on Austria, and later the ransom of France in 1870. The German policy was expressed in the words:—."Demander, prendre, et recevoir." All the latter-day troubles of the world might be said to have arisen in Germany. Germany seized Kiao-Chau without a shred of excuse. That led to the seizure of Port Arthur by Russia: to the seizure of Wei-hai-Wei by England; and to all the subsequent trouble in China. It seemed to him that a country with such a character and such traditions required the most vigilant and suspicious attention on the part of a country like England, which was so greatly dependent in all its concerns on of successive British Ministers had been marked by a strange subserviency to Germany—entirelycontrary to the desires of the country. All who read the biography of the greatest Foreign Minister of modern times—Lord Palmerston— were aware that he owed his position to the conviction that he would resist Germany. He was discharged with ignominy from his office by his Sovereign; but because he was known to be anti-German the English people stood by him from the beginning of his career to the end of his life. Yet the modern Foreign Secretary learned nothing from that. He made himself subservient to Germany—always the concealed foe of England, of the interests of peace, and of the solidity of European settlement.
The noble Lord admitted, as far as an Under Secretary to the Foreign Office could admit, that there was a secret treaty between this country and Germany. In October, 1902, he asked the Under Secretary whether such a treaty existed; and the noble Lord replied that if it did he was precluded from communicating its terms. That was, he thought, an absolute admission as to the existence of the treaty. He did not know whether it existed now; but he presumed it did. He wished to ask the noble Lord now whether there was such a treaty. If the noble Lord could also inform

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him whether it related to a partition between Germany and England of the territory of our ancient ally, Portugal, it would greatly add to the interest of his answer. The Venezuelan affair was one of the two instances this year in which, as on many occasions before, this country had been made the catspaw of Germany, apparently with the complacent self-admiration of the statesmen who composed the Cabinet. It was a matter prepared entirely in secret. It was a conspiracy from beginning to end between the Foreign Secretary and his colleagues and the German Government for the aggrandisement of Germany. A hostile act had been committed before this country knew anything about it. Then there was a debate on a Motion for the Adjournment of the House, a debate which was utterly inadequate tinder the New Rules. The Fleet was sent to Venezuela to collect a sum not mentioned. The only claim named was the German claim. The whole thing was a secret arrangement between, as lie believed, His Majesty's Government and the German Emperor. It was undoubtedly one of the results of the visit of the Kaiser to this country. The Prime Minister, at the Mansion House on November 10, 1902, had characterised that suggestion as "the wildest and most fantastic invention." But what was wild and fantastic about the whole Venezuela business was this common adventure of England and Germany into the American Continent at the risk of this country losing the friendship of the people of the United States. If they had not actually seen it in operation, sane men would find it difficult to believe that any British Minister would face the risk of such an undertaking. The noble Lord the Under-Secretary, who could always find a word in season, had truly described the Venezuela affair as "a mess." Of course it was a mess, and he doubted whether it was yet arranged. A protocol was signed which professed to bring the whole thing to an end on 13th February, 1903, but he should like to hear from the noble Lord whether there were not questions still left over for settlement. But if this country were really out of the Venezuelan wood, he hoped the Government would take the whole adventure to heart as a warning not to enter into filibuster-
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ing alliances with such a Power as Germany, or, at any rate, not to do it until they had first consulted Parliament.
The Baghdad railway was another adventure which arose out of the visit of the Kaiser to England. Apparently it was the inspiration of the Colonial Secretary. In November, 1899, the Kaiser came to this country. On the 30th of the month the Colonial Secretary, speaking at Leicester, declared that England ought not to remain isolated on the Continent, and that it must be apparent to every one that a natural alliance was one between this country and Germany. Circumstances have changed since 1899, but on that change lie would not dwell. On December 3, 1899, the Cologne Gazette stated that the new attitude of England towards Germany, as shown in the speech of the Colonial Secretary, would enable Germany to carry out the Baghdad railway, and on December 23 the contract was signed by which the Anatolian Company got possession of the railway. The question had slumbered from 1900 to 1903. That business again was carried On in secrecy, and that was his complaint. If His Majesty's Government would only act on the advice of the Colonial Secretary and give up this secret diplomacy, which always failed, and accept the principle of open diplomacy, many of these blunders and many of these debates would be saved. There was one remarkable thing. On March 16 the Government had in their possession Consul Waugh's Report that the proposed railway was a German scheme, promoted in the interest of Germany against all others; yet on April 7, and on the Motion for the Adjournment, which, as the right hon. Baronet had truly said, was one of the last of our liberties which were left to the House, when he raised the question in the House, the First Lord of the Treasury declared that the railway had nothing German about it. When he protested, the Prime Minister stated he was perfectly correct, and yet, at that time, the Government had in their pockets—and had had since the 16th March— the Report of Consul Waugh, enclosing the copy of the contract, which showed that the whole thing was a German concern. He did not object to the railway, because all railways were good feeders of

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ships. But this was not a railway; it was a financial fraud and a political conspiracy—a fraud whereby English trade would suffer, and a conspiracy whereby the political interests of England would be threatened. It amounted to a military and commercial occupation by Germany of the whole of Asia Minor. It was due to the English people and the English Press that this almost completed conspiracy with Germany was stopped. In the course of a fortnight the Government, on 23rd April, declared that what they first said was not a German railway was a German railway, and that they would have nothing to do with it. He was delighted to hear that statement, lint he did not think the danger was quite passed; for the Prime Minister on the 8th of April said that whether they made it an English railway or not, the railway would be made, and the noble Lord said if circumstances arose which might cause a modification in the views of the Government, the Government would consider what position they should take up. That was not sufficient for him. He asked the noble Lord, as the representative of the Government, to say that the Government, adhered, and intended to adhere, to their decision of the 23rd of April with regard to the railway. If the noble Lord would give a categorical answer to that question he would be very much relieved.
The next point to which lie desired to refer was the treatment of Canada by Germany. The Government seemed always to be in concert with Germany when Germany was in the wrong, and always opposed to her when she was in the right. Certainly it was impossible to conceive a stronger and more unassailable position than that of Germany in this instance. The foundation of our colonial system was the "completer tariff autonomy" of the self-governing colonies. So far as this country was concerned, self-governing colonies were, as regards their tariffs, in exactly the position of foreign nations. They were entirely separate from us. They were entirely separate from us. The Under-secretary shook his head. Did the noble Lord know any country of which a part imposed 24 per cent. Import duties on goods from the other part? If the colonies and the mother country were one for tariff and fiscal purposes, how on earth was it that they
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were so separate that Canada imposed 24 per cent duties on the imports from this country, and Australia also put on duties, though not quite so high as Canada? If they were one, how did the noble Lord explain the fact that not one of the colonies was so similarly situated with as, much less one with us, that it would accept the blessed invention of dear sugar which was enshrined in that great triumph of modern diplomacy—the Sugar Convention? It was perfectly clear that the separation for fiscal and tariff purposes between the self governing colonies and this country was absolute and complete. They were independent of us; we were independent of them. They took one way—that of protection—which we had not yet taken; we took another way—that of free trade. The colonies and this country acted on different policies, which reposed on different principles Could anything be more separate? The, noble Lord, however, still held to the theory that the colonies and this country were one—a theory which was never advanced until its invention for the purpose of picking a quarrel with Germany. He would not dwell further on the matter. He had made his point out of the mouth of his Majesty's Ministers, who had themselves, through the noble Lord's own father, asserted the principle of the complete tariff autonomy of the self-governing colonies. When, therefore. Canada withdrew the most-favoured-nation treatment from Germany, Germany had an undoubted right, to withdraw it from Canada. Now it had long been recognised, and he believed it to be still true, that the fovoured-nation clause, which we now have with some twenty-five or thirty nations, was the most important foundation of British trade, and that which secured us in the foreign markets of the world.
What had we done with regard to Russia over this favoured-nation clause, in connection with which we now had so great a quarrel with Germany? Russia claimed the benefit of the clause as a protection against the imposition by this country of countervailing duties upon her sugar, and she claimed it upon the most absolute foundation. Our own law officers in the year

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1880 gave it as their distinct and settled opinion that to impose countervailing duties of any sort on the produce of any one foreign country and not equally on all, was a violation of the favoured-nation clause. It was said that the present law officers differed from that opinion, but when the Prime Minister was challenged as to whether it was all three law officers or only the Lord Chancellor who differed he would give no answer. If it had been all three law officers the right hon. Gentleman would have had no difficulty in answering. It was very strange that one set of perfectly impeccable law officers should arrive at one conclusion on certain facts, while another set, equally impeccable, arrived at another conclusion on exactly the same facts. It was impossible for any candid person reading the correspondence with Russia in reference to this favoured-nation clause to deny that, as in the ease of Germany, we had acted most shabbily and meanly. The whole of the correspondence was discreditable to this country, and seemed to have been conducted in the spirit not of a statesman, but of a pettifogging attorney defending the case of a cheating tradesman. He hoped the noble Lord would be able to answer the Questions he had put—viz., were any negotiations with foreign potentates or statesmen conducted by His Majesty during his visit abroad; did they result in any engagements binding upon this country; what records, if any, had been kept of them; were there any questions under the Protocol of February 11th with Venezuela still unsettled; would the Government undertake not to depart without previously informing Parliament from the decision at which they had already arrived with regard to the Baghdad Railway; and what were the terms of the secret treaty with Germany.
LORD CRANBORNE: I think that the Committee will agree that the speeches to which we have just listened have covered so much ground and dealt with so many subjects of interest in all parts of the world that unless I venture to trouble the Committee with a few remarks now I shall be so over-weighted with detail as to be almost over whelmed. I have no complaint to make of the speech of my hon. friend the Member for King's Lynn with regard to myself. He has been good enough to compliment me on certain points, but he mingled with
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those compliments a certain amount of criticism, the most important of which was that as I did not know all the diplomatic proceedings which have been going on. I was not able to communicate them to the House. It is not for me in this place to say how much I know or how much I do not know, but the reason I have not communicated information to the House is that it would be contrary to the interests of this country to do so. I am afraid that at any rate with regard to one of the Questions of the hon. Member that must be the Answer now. I am not going to discuss on the floor of the House whether or not there is a secret agreement between England and Germany in respect of Portugal, but I will say that there is nothing which His Majesty's Government have done which is in any way aggressive to our oldest ally, Portugal, and I am absolutely confident that if the Question were put to the Portuguese Government they would say the same thing. They know that our intentions in regard to them are entirely in their favour.
MR. GIBSON BOWLES: May I assume that this treaty has been communicated to Portugal?
LORD CRANBORNE: I did not rise to be cross-examined by my hon. friend. He must be satisfied with what I have told him. The right hon. Baronet has indulged in a great deal of very fabulous history, and he has been fond of allocating dates and drawing conclusions, most of which are entirely unfounded. It seems impossible, from listening to the right hon. Baronet, that any Minister, of whatever Party, speaking in this place, can say a civil word of any foreign country but that the conclusion must be at once drawn that we have an alliance with them.
SIR CHARLES DILKE: I alluded specifically to speeches, one of which was afterwards quoted by the hon. Member for King's Lynn, in which the policy of a military alliance with Germany was advocated by leading Members of the Cabinet.
LORD CRANBORNE: I am exceedingly doubtful whether, with the exception of Portugal, any European

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alliance whatever would be to our advantage. But the statement does not exclude friendly co-operation with our European neighbours. On the contrary, it is, and it always has been, the policy of His Majesty's Government to be on good terms and to co-operate as far as possible with foreign Governments. But I was astonished that the hon. Member for King's Lynn thought it right to criticise His Majesty's visit a few months ago to various Powers in Europe. I thought it was universally admitted by all parties that the visit of courtesy had done nothing but good, in drawing still closer together those friendly feelings which exist between ourselves and the various countries which lie visited. The hon. Member made it a matter of complaint that His Majesty was not accompanied by one of his Ministers. I am afraid that if the Minister in whose Department it lies to accompany him—that is to say the Foreign Minister—had done so, it would have thrown out of gear all the other matters of great importance in foreign policy which depend upon Lord Lansdowne's own attention every day and every hour throughout the year. My hon. friend talked in a rather portentous way about precedents. He seems to forget that we have made certain changes since the time to which he referred, and that there is now such a thing as the electric telegraph by which His Majesty, or indeed anybody in a responsible position, can be in close communication with the Home Government at all times. That visit did minister to the good feeling between this country and foreign countries, and I think many Members of the House were witnesses last night of the fruits which His Majesty's visit has produced. But that leads me to remark that no one who was present at that dinner last night could have listened very closely to the proceedings without becoming aware that what was contended for was, not merely, or only, a good understanding between England and France, very valuable though that is, but that, so far as possible, there should be co-operation between the various European Powers, and that the reign of force should gradually be superseded by the reign of law. I do not think my hon. friend the Mem-
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ber for King's Lynn was there, and I am afraid the proceedings would not have harmonised altogether with his own point of view.
MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg pardon.
LORD CRANBORNE: No one who desires us to be on friendly terms with the other European Powers would have used the language, which I must describe as language of great discourtesy towards Germany, which my hon. friend has just been guilty of.
MR. GIBSON BOWLES: Were there any Germans there last night?
LORD CRANBORNE: My hon. friend knows perfectly well that that has nothing to do with it. I suspect that he has been one of the first in the last few months to lecture and criticise Germans for observations of an uncivil and discourteous character which they have made with regard to his own country, and I feel bound to enter this protest. Nothing but harm arises from the use of language of the kind my hon. friend has used; and, if I may say so, it deprives my hon. friend of any claim to be a good authority on foreign politics if he cannot restrain himself from using language of that kind.
MR. GIBSON BOWLES: "What I have said, I have said."
LORD CRANBORNE: I am bound to say the right hon. Baronet used no such language. His criticism was really delivered against His Majesty's Government, and not against a foreign Government; and he seemed to think that the Foreign Office was very ignorant and headless; that they had no appreciation of the difficulties of the situation, and that a number of points which he put forward had evidently not been appreciated by the Foreign Office. I can assure him that is not the ease. Of course, we have paid very close attention to all the difficulties that have arisen from time to time between this country and Germany, and we knew perfectly well that we should be called upon to deal with them at a future time. But merely because we have nut announced them in the House of Commons, which would

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have done nothing but harm, the right hon. Baronet assumes that we do not know them. The right hon. Baronet took us a very long way back and stated that the history of our relations with Germany was one succession of blunders. I do not agree with him. He instanced, for example—going back to very ancient history—the arrangement made with Germany with respect to Zanzibar and Heligoland. I do not think it would be becoming to boast of that arrangement; but I must say, looking at it as a whole, that I do not think we have any reason to complain of the part we played in that bargain. Not only did we secure a protectorate over the very important island of Zanzibar—important both from a strategical and from a commercial point of view—but we certainly added to our Empire a most fertile and profitable part of East Africa, for which payment was made in the shape of the Island of Heligoland, which never could have been of the least use to us. It seems to me to have been a first-rate bargain for this, country. I will not follow all the steps which the right hon. Baronet has taken. I am content to deal with relatively modern times, and to say a word or two about our policy in China and the negotiations which we have had with Germany in respect to that country. The right hon. Baronet has dwelt at some length upon the Anglo-German Agreement, and did me the justice to say that I had never set it before the House as a great matter. Indeed, I remember in the first speech that I made in this House, speaking from this place, I then said, though it was a step in the right direction, it was a very small step, and if hon. Gentlemen did not believe me—of course it was not unnatural that they should not give weight to the opinion of a newly-joined Under-Secretary—if they did not believe me it was their own fault. I have never imagined for a moment that the Anglo-German Agreement was a matter of vast importance; but I do not think it was a mistake. I think, so far as it went, it was a very good agreement. It was one more assertion on our part of the policy which we have always desired to pursue in China—namely, the policy of the integrity of China and the policy of the open door. And if it turned out that the German Government did not interpret
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that instrument in the same way as we regarded it, that did not make the agreement, instead of being an advantage, a disadvantage to us. So far as it went it did good, and nothing but good. The right hon. Baronet seems to think that that agreement represented a policy of spheres of influence as opposed to the policy of the "open door." That shows a very strange forgetfulness on his part of what that instrument contains.
SIR CHARLES DILKE: I did not say that instrument was a policy of spheres of influence. I said you had put two alternative policies before the House, and this policy gave up the alternative policy of spheres of influence.
LORD CRANBORNE: It certainly was not intended to be a policy of spheres of influence; it was a policy of the integrity of China, of the open door, and open ports and rivers. That has always been our policy, and we have always pursued it. I hardly like to go in great detail into the question of Chinese railways, to which the right hon. Gentleman devoted a great deal of time. He seemed to think that in that respect we are getting the worst of it in the competition with Germany. That is not the information which has reached the Foreign Office. I have no reason to boast of what has passed. On the contrary, it is a matter of business all through. But the two great syndicates which are developing railways in that part of China, the German syndicate and the British syndicate, seem to me to be on very good terms; and there is no feeling on one side or the other that either party has got the best of the coin, petition. The right hon. Baronet spoke of the evacuation of Shanghai, and seemed to think that there again we had got the worst of it in our competition with Germany. I have already had an opportunity of pointing out to the Committee of the House of Commons that that is by no means the case. Certainly the German Government had put forward certain claims which we could not accept. We refused to accept them, and the Chinese Government took our view and not Germany's view, and said in a most categorical way that nothing which had been stated interfered in the least with

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the rights of Great Britain. The right hon. Baronet only said one word about Manchuria, and I will not deal with it at any length. There again our policy is perfectly well known. It is contained in the instruments to which we have affixed the signatures of His Majesty's Government, and of course the principal of those instruments is the Anglo-Japanese agreement. I think in that agreement we have recognised the special interests of Japan in Korea, and we are very glad to recognise them. On the other hand, we have asserted once more our own interest in the "open door" throughout the Chinese Empire. That does not mean, of course, that we do not know full well that Russia occupies rather a special position in Manchuria. On the contrary, we recognised that so far back as 1899, when we made a famous railway agreement with Russia, in which there was mutual recognition of the right, so far as we were concerned, of Russia to make railways in Manchuria without our competition, and of ourselves to make railways in the Yang-tsze Valley without Russia's competition. So there is nothing in this policy which is secret, as the hon. Member for King's Lynn seems to think; it is to be found on the face of public instruments to which we have affixed our seal. Then the right hon. Baronet dealt with the question of Venezuela, and put together a number of dates and drew conclusions to his own satisfaction with regard to the visit of the German Emperor. So far as I know, there is no word of truth in the view of the right hon. Gentleman. I was not present at Sandringham; but on the bench there are two of my right hon. friends who were there.
SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid he had said nothing about the German Emperor. He had referred to the date of the despatch signed by Lord Lansdowne, who had stated that he saw Count von Biilow on that date.
LORD CRANBOREN: It does not matter what the date was. The policy with regard to Venezuela had gradually grown up months before the visit of the German Emperor to this country. Nothing is more absurd than for hon. Members, because they do not see all the
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secrets of the Foreign Office, to think themselves at liberty to support this particular idea which is rooted in the mind of the right hon. Gentleman.
SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid he asked why no despatch was laid by the Government except the one despatch of that date showing joint action. He was not speaking of British action, but of joint action.
LORD CRANBORNEsaid the despatch was no doubt written on that date, but the treatment of both England and Germany by Venezuela was a matter of many months growth, long before the visit of the German Emperor. I am authorised to say now that the German Emperor's visit had nothing whatever to do directly or indirectly—
SIR CHARLES DILKE: I made no remark whatever about the German Emperor. The Prime Minister did not hear my speech.
LORD CRANBORNE: If I have misrepresented the right hon. Baronet I withdraw. But I understood him, by calling attention to these dates, to convey the innuendo that it was part of the results of the German Emperor's visit that we became associated in Venezuela with Germany. And if he did not say so, the hon. Member for King's Lynn said so in categorical terms, and quoted some obscure German print in order to prove his point. That I absolutely deny.
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Will the noble Lord repeat what he was saying when he was interrupted, perhaps naturaly interrupted, by the right hon. Baronet, who wished to correct him? The noble Lord was conveying a very important fact to the House, and I think we ought to have it in its full terms.
LORD CRANBORNE: What I am authorised to say is this—that the German Emperor had nothing whatever to do, either direct or indirect, with any communications to His Majesty's Ministers as to the co-operation between Great Britain and Germany in the

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matter of Venezuela. That is merely an incident; but I protest in the warmest way against the criticism which has been delivered at the head of His Majesty's Government for our co-operation with Germany in Venezuela. Why should we net have co-operated with Germany? Is it really to be taken as an axiom of foreign politics that, because the policy of this country has not been in the past on all fours with the policy of another country, because, perhaps, certain rather discourteous observations have been passed in the German Reichstag, therefore, for all time, we are never to cooperate with Germany I There is, for example, the question of the slave trade. One of our principal assistants in suppressing the slave trade is the German Empire. Are we to be told that because—I frankly admit the fact—Germany did not treat us very well, indeed, treated us rather badly, in reference to our South African war, therefore we are not to co-operate with her in; suppressing the slave trade? The thing is absolute nonsense. What we have got to look after is British interests; and all this fussy sentimentality is really beside the point. I yield to no one in resenting the criticisms, the most unfair criticisms, the most false criticisms, that were made against our troops in South Africa by Germany; but His Majesty's Government would have been unfit for their place if they had not done their best to defend British interests in Venezuela, wholly irrespective of those unfortunate words which had been uttered a few months before. The criticism which was directed against us in respect of our Venezuelan policy, that it estranged the United States, has turned out to be absolutely untrue. I say that our relations with the United States were never more friendly than they are at the present moment. There was never greater cordiality and harmony than there is at the present moment. I know that the right hon. Baronet will say that that is because the people did it, and not the Government. But, at any rate, we are part of the people of this country, and we claim, and claim with some confidence, that we represent in these matters the opinion of our fellow countrymen; and I do not for a moment think so
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badly of the public opinion of the United States as to believe that it resented our following what was evidently the most convenient course in asserting the rights of our fellow-subjects in Venezuela. The fact of the matter is that the American people are a very sensible people, and they recognise, I believe, as we do, that if both England and Germany have at the same time grievances of a similar character to complain of against a semi-civilised Power like Venezuela the natural course is to enforce reparation together and not separately.
I am sorry the hon. Member for King's Lynn has not thought it right to remain in his place while I was attempting to deliver something of a reply to his remarks. He was very sensitive about the absence of a certain very illustrious occupant of this Bench while he was speaking; but I really think it is going a long way when an hon. Gentleman delivers a very well-prepared philippic against His Majesty's Government, and immediately after he has finished quits the House I will content myself with saying that the whole account he gave of the Baghdad Railway affair was completely erroneous. The Government never agreed to anything. My right hon. friend indicated that, if certain terms turned out to be terms which could be agreed upon by certain syndicates, the Government would not withhold their support, and would even give certain facilities. But we were not satisfied, in the event, that the terms which we put for ward had been agreed to. On the contrary, we found that in several respects the terms which the two syndicates had arrived at did not harmonise with those which my right hon. friend put forward. The idea that His Majesty's Government were prepared to support a German railway in Asia Minor is untrue, simply definitely untrue. The object of the negotiations, so far as they lay in the hands of His Majesty's Government, was not to support a German railway but to turn a German railway into an international railway. That was the object, and if it had been possible to achieve it I believe the policy would have been a perfectly sound one. Are we to be strangers to the development of Asia Minor? Are we, who hold the

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greater part of the trade, to have in nothing to say to railway development in Asia Minor if we can get the terms which we require for our co-operation? I do not deny that we were not able to get the terms, and I go further, and say that the outcry which was made in this matter—I think the very ill-informed outcry—made it exceedingly difficult for us to get the terms we required. After all, the getting of capital in this country is a very delicate matter. It is possible sometimes for a Government to harden its heart and to ride through the fence, however severe the prickles they have to encounter in the process may be. But capital is not like that, and if there is an outcry in this country private capital is at once estranged. So the whole process of the negotiations was immediately arrested, and it became impossible for us to secure the terms winch we wanted.
I pass from the Baghdad Railway to consider for a moment what the right hon. Baronet said with respect to the Canada Blue-book. I do not agree with the right hon. Baronet's history. He seemed to think that there were very few occasions on which the British Government had made representations to the German Government in respect of treatment of Canada. The Canada original representation, as the Committee is aware, took the very emphatic form of denouncing our treaty with Germany because the terms of that treaty did not permit of Canada and Great Britain making whatever fiscal conditions they pleased between themselves.
MR. GIBSON BOWLES:There is no such prohibition in the treaty.
LORD CRANBORNE: Yes, the did prevent Canada and this country making whatever fiscal arrangements they pleased between themselves.
MR. GIBSON BOWLES: Where?
LORD CRANBOREN: I am prepared to argue the question with the hon. Gentleman. Everybody knows that under the most-favoured-nation clause in that treaty it was impossible for Canada to give a preference to this country. The Government of that day announced
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in the strongest terms that they were not going to allow such a disability to continue, and that, rather than permit a treaty to continue to exist which imposed this disability, they would denounce it, and they did denounce it. Then came the conversation which took place with a representative of the German Foreign Office in September, 1898, in which the British Ambassador pointed out the disappointing was the decision of the German Government to withhold the minimum tariff from Canada. There was another representation in 1899, and then there were the negotiations which the right hon. Baronet entirely forgot to mention—they are not contained in this Blue-book—which took place in Canada itself between representatives of the colony and the German Consul-General. And, lastly, there were the recent representations in 1903, in which we explained how important we thought it that the German Government should treat Canada better. Our position appears to me to be perfectly clear. We desire to be on good terms with every country, Germany included, but we put our colonies before everybody. And even if it could be shown, as my hon. Friend tried to show, that up to that moment Canada had been treated in all respects as a separate fiscal unit, all we have got to say is this—that, however long that had continued, it must be put an end to, and put an end to at once. We were not prepared to go on any longer, in the face of the modern development of cordial feeling between all parts of the Empire, with a disability of this kind in respect of fiscal relations. And once that is admitted by Germany, once she and other countries admit that the fiscal relations between England and her colonies are a domestic matter with which they have no concern, then I can assure the Committee that our attitude in negotiating a new treaty with Germany will be as conciliatory as the greatest friend of Germany could desire. I would point out to the Committee how very unfair it is to charge the Foreign Office with neglect of duty, with incompetence, with securing no results, as is the fashion sometimes with hon. Gentlemen opposite. Since I have been in office—that is to say, since I have had the honour

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of serving under Lord Lansdowne—if I gave the list the Committee would be astonished at the mass of work we have turned out, the number of treaties of the first class that we have concluded, the number of negotiations we have brought to a successful termination, and the success which has attended our efforts to draw closer our friendly relations with Italy, with France, and with the United States. I think I may claim, and claim with some confidence, that if these facts are looked into impartially and fairly, whatever change may in the near future await this Government, one thing will be true, that the Foreign Office administration although it has not, of course, been perfect has, on the whole, been thoroughly successful—yes, I say so, and if the right hon. Baronet challenges me I shall be able to make good my words—worthy of the traditions of that Office, and worthy of the interests of the country for which that Office exists.
MR. BLAKEsaid he wished to make one request to the noble Lord. Several allusions had been made to the negotiations between the Canadian Government and the Consul-General of Germany in Quebec. The existence of these negotiations was first brought to the attention of the House by the First Minister some time ago, and only the other day the Colonial Secretary, in answer to a Question, stated that he was not aware that any record of the negotiations existed, and referred to the circumstance that, except by arrangement, all such negotiations were more properly trans acted through the Home Government. He had this to say, on the authority of a Canadian gentleman who spoke with him the other day. That gentleman in formed him that these negotiations, at any rate the most important, part, were on paper, and that they had been communicated to the Canadian House of Commons some time in the month of April last, and he gave him an account of the statement in those written communications of the attitude of the Canadian Government communicated to the German Government through its Consul-General, with reference to the most-favourd-nation clauses in all treaties. It appeared to him that this was of the highest interest and importance, and that it ought to be brought to the attention of that House if any question of colonial felling was
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brought in. He did not choose to communicate to the House the oral version of a document like that given by his interlocutor, although he had absolute confidence in him. But if it were true that these communications were in writing, and were communicated last spring to the Canadian House of Commons, it was full time that they were laid before that House.
SIR EDWARD GREY: I Propose to say something on the question of the Papers which have recently been laid about Germany and Canada; but they belong really so much more to a much larger question, than they do to a general question of foreign policy, that I should like to deal with the latter first. Of course I sympathise entirely with the demand of the hon. Member who has just sat down, that if there is more information throwing light on the Canadian point of view it ought to be laid before this House. The noble Lord at the end of his speech made, I think, one of the widest and most comprehensive claims for general success over an enormous sphere of policy that I ever heard made on behalf of a Department in the House. I am sorry that I cannot endorse it; and although he made that large claim, he passed by without an effective answer a very large part of the powerful criticism of the policy of the Government to which we have listened, especially in reference to China and Venezuela. With one thing I sympathise and entirely agree. I welcome, and am prepared to give the Government credit for, their part in encouraging a better understanding between ourselves and our neighbours on the other side of the Channel. I agree entirely with what he said about the beneficent results of His Majesty's journey abroad tending to bring about better relations. I think His Majesty's visit and the return visit of the President of the French Republic, was an international benefit to both countries. But although I endorse all that, and would say no word to depreciate the part which His Majesty's Government or the French Government either, have had in bringing about this better state of things, I think it is worth while to remember that been possible now it might have been possible two or three years ago. It is

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very difficult to explain why it should be so; but I am sure every one who has followed foreign affairs will recognise that it is almost as if in the political.atmosphere sometimes there came a sort,of benign influence which so affected public opinion in different countries, that it made possible, better relations than are possible on ordinary occasions. If so, it was a happy thing that both Governments took advantage of the occasion. I agree with the noble Lord that it is not merely a better understanding, but that it is the fact that that better understanding is based on a more general hope of peace. It has been, even in this House, the fate of hon. Members to be a little chilled by the response which the British Government have given when they have been pressed to enter upon negotiations which would lead to general treaties of arbitration. I think the reason why those representations have not, perhaps, met with so much encouragement on previous occasions is that it is not in the power of one Government alone to promote peace, but that there must be a general feeling abroad in the direction of arbitration. Well, there is such a general feeling abroad, and it is, I think, because the better understanding between ourselves and France has not merely eased the relations between the two countries, but also is making for the peace of the world at large, that we ought to welcome it. I will say this—that really public opinion is the great factor in these matters, and if two peoples really convince each other, through the Press and other channels, that they wish each other well, it is worth more to those two nations than if a treaty of alliance were made.
I pass to a policy which has not been so successful, the policy of the Government in relation to certain affairs in different parts of the world in which they have had the co-operation of Germany. I accept entirely, of course, the noble Lords statement that the co-operation with regard to Venezuela was not instigated by the German Emperor. I never attached any importance to the question whether it was or was not so instigated; what I have attached importance to was the statement of the noble Lord that it was a mess. Whatever its origin was, it was none the less a mess.
LORD CRANBORNE: I am afraid I cannot claim any copyright in that phrase; I think it first appeared in the Daily News.
SIR EDWARD GREY: I did not understand the noble Lord to quote it.
LORD CRANBORNE: Yes.
SIR EDWARD GREY: I understood him to adopt it.
LORD CRANBORNE: I explained at some length that I did not look Unit as a mess. Perhaps the right hon. Baronet had not an opportunity of seeing a very full report of my observations.
SIR EDWARD GREY: The phrase I had in my mind was: "Of course it is a mess." But I admit I did not see a very full report, and I accept any construction the noble Lord places upon it. I will try and explain why I think it was a mess. The danger of the Venezuelan co-operation was this, to my mind—we had certain claims against Venezuela which were the result of definite outrages on little vessels belonging to Trinidad, and those were claims which any nation would he bound to press and could not possibly allow to pass without peremptory demand for compensation. But the German claims were not on all fours with our claims; they were much more of a nature to be the subject of long negotiation than of peremptory demands. We tied up our case with the German case, although they did not really correspond in quality. That was one of the mischiefs of the Venezuelan difficulty. Another was this—that we did undoubtedly run the risk of impairing our relations with the United States. It ought to be an object of British policy, in any operations we are forced to undertake on the other side, as far as possible to make an understanding with the United States our first object, and, if possible, an understanding with the United States alone. It is not every nation that regards with favour the good understanding which happily exists between this Government and the United States; and if you allow yourselves to be engaged with third or fourth parties in matters on the other side of the Atlantic you will some day

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be engaged in a co-operation out of which you will not get as happily as you did out of the Venezuelan affair, and out of which you will not get without finding that your relations with the United States are impaired. As it was, a great risk was run, and I agree with the right hon. Member for the Forest of Dean that it was public opinion which prevented these matters from being worse than they were; it was public opinion which got the Government out of the mess. It was the overwhelming determination shown on the part of public opinion here that the matter must not go further, and that the Government must get out of it as quickly as possible which prevented an unfavourable development of public opinion in the United States. I will not go into the Baghdad question at length, as there are other questions to be raised. I am delighted that there the Government, if they did get into a mess at all, did not get very far into it. But I think it was greatly owing to public opinion again, to a most remarkable explosion of public opinion, very forcibly voiced by the hon. Member for King's Lynn in this House, which prevented the Government from going farther than they did. Then we come to China, and there again I do not see the success of the foreign policy which the noble Lord has claimed. The co-operation with Germany in China, as far as I can judge, has been an entire failure. The noble Lord defended what he now calls the Vang-tsze agreement with Germany.
LORD CRANBORNE: I was only following the phrase of the right hon. Member for the Forest of Dean.
SIR CHARLES DILKE: I repudiated it at once when it was applied.
LORD CRANBORNE: I repudiate it now.
SIR EDWARD GREY: There is no intention so to call it here then, but it is in reference to its being called so in Berlin that I would refer. That agreement was one that sounds very well, and the noble Lord said it was good, as far as it goes. But does it go anywhere? The agreement was understood, when it
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first appeared, as doing something which was tending to the co-operation of ourselves and Germany in two objects, the maintenance of the integrity of China and the maintenance of the open door. There has been great anxiety and apprehension about both these things in regard to Manchuria, as to whether the agreement between His Majesty's Government and Germany was of any use in the matter. I should like the noble Lord when he speaks again to tell us whether the Government have appealed to this agreement with Germany and asked for co-operation in maintaining the open door in Manchuria.
LORD CRANBORNE: I can answer that Question at once, and I think I have already answered it. The German Government take the view that the Anglo-German Agreement does not, so far as they are concerned, apply to, Manchuria.
SIR EDWARD GREY: Then I think that the Anglo-German Agreement is a most one-sided instrument. One of its conditions is that we are to keep for Germany the open door in the Yang-tsze region, which we never had any intention of closing, and it seems that it is not of the least use to hope for help from Germany in maintaining the open door in any other part of China. At the first test the agreement has broken down. The question has arisen in Manchuria, and the agreement has proved of no use. I hope we shall have no more of these one-sided agreements. After all that has passed in China I think the Government has been pursuing a wrong policy altogether with regard to co-operation with Germany. They have been relying on the one Power from whom they have got nothing in return. If that had led to good feeling between us and Germany I would not have looked too closely into the bargain; but what do I feel about this close co-operation with Germany in China and Asia is that your German policy is one of two alternatives. The alternative I should like to see pursued would be a policy of co-operation and agreement with Russia. But I am sure that, so long as the key of your policy is co-operation or agreement with Germany in the first instance, you will never have

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a chance of co-operation and agreement with Russia. Our interests in Asia are interests which touch more closely and more often with Russia than with any other country. The noble Lord has said that Russia occupies a special position in Manchuria. It is a special position, so special that we ought really to have had some statement from the noble Lord as to what the view of His Majesty's Government is with regard to it. My view is that we ought to distinguish very clearly and distinctly between territorial and political questions in Manchuria and commercial questions—that the policy of His Majesty's Government should be limited to commercial questions, that we should not occupy ourselves with political questions, and that the Government should work for co-operation with other Powers in maintaining the open door in Manchuria. But, considering the railway interests of Russia in Manchuria, they ought not to mix themselves up with questions about territory or political questions in Manchuria—that is to say, the object of British diplomacy should be limited to securing the open door for British trade and to avoid getting into political controversies. The United States apparently take the same view, and I hope the Government will not be left alone if they adopt that policy.
The question whether it is possible to have agreement and co-operation with Russia in Asia is one which it is impossible for anybody but the Government to answer. But I have never seen that His Majesty's Government have made any real effort to get an understanding with Russia and to overcome the obstacles which tradition and past policy have naturally placed in the way of such an understanding. I think it is difficult because I am not sure that Russia pursues a settled policy. I think Russia lives much more from hand to mouth than we think. I think she moves like a large glacier, much more by pressure from behind than from any settled policy; but I am quite sure it should be our object to make up our own minds as to what the limits of our interests in Asia are, and to lose no opportunity of using every possible effort to come to a clear understanding with Russia as to what the boundaries of our interests are. We cannot go on as we have been going on. The Government talk about the status quo and integrity, but Russia goes
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on continually absorbing more and more territory. We hear a great deal of the status quo and integrity with regard to China and with regard to Persia, and Russia is continually absorbing more territory and collecting more influence with the central authority. We have to make it our pokey to consolidate what we have got in Asia, and to consider what our proper functions are, bearing in mind that if you seek to extend your frontier you must extend it in such a way as not to weaken its defence. You must not advance because another Power is advancing and then find yourselves in occupation of a frontier more difficult to defend than that you had before. That is why I lay stress on consolidation. Having made up your minds what is necessary for consolidation, the sooner the Russian Government is made to understand it the better. Now I have dwelt on this because I do regard the situation in China as serious. I take this from the Shanghai correspondent of The Times—
"To any observer who observes the position in the far East, in its relation to what we call the civilised world, it is evident that the future maintenance of the integrity of China is, humanly speaking, impossible."
I offer no comment on that statement, but it is about the gravest statement that could be made. The Government must have some clear idea of their policy in view of such a situation. The first point should be not to take territory, because we have as much as we can manage. The second point should be to consolidate our frontiers and to defend what we have got without extending those frontiers. The third point is that the open door should be maintained. That can only be done by co-operation with other Powers. And there ought to be in the minds, not only of His Majesty s Government, but of the Governments of other Powers, some clear agreement as to what would happen to their interests in Asia if these large countries, such as China and Persia, have their integrity impaired.
Now I would pass from that to the question of the Papers laid before the House with reference to the correspondence with Germany respecting the Canadian tariff. I asked a Question on this subject some little time ago, and I was given an answer by the Colonial Secretary. We accepted that answer as given, waiting with interest to see

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how it is to be interpreted by results. The Colonial Secretary, in giving me that answer, reproached me with my ingenuous ignorance on the subject of the relations between Canada and Germany. I have learnt a good deal since then, partly owing to His Majesty's Government, partly owing to the Press; and I would say at once that the information I have since gained makes me of opinion that it is all the more natural that I should have asked the Question some time ago. We have now got these Papers laid as to what has passed between His Majesty's Government and the German Government in relation to the treatment of Canada. I asked a Question as to whether His Majesty's Government regarded that treatment as an act of hostile discrimination. That was my ingenuous ignorance. Now I find that His Majesty's Government, so far from regarding it as an act of host le discrimination, having asked the German Government for an explanation four years ago, lay down under that explanation without making any reply for about four years. They got their explanation in August, 1899. They made no reply to it, and the German Government were entitled to hold that the explanation was accepted. A few months afterwards the Colonial Secretary appealed for an alliance with Germany, and that, so far as we know, without a word as to her explanation of the treatment of Canada. That I had not realised before. That is a new fact in the situation. It certainly strikes me with some surprise. Another thing I have learnt is that last year, at the Colonial Conference, and this I might have known the other day, but did not, a discussion of this question of the most-favoured-nation treatment of the colonies took place, and an agreement was come to, apparently unanimously, that the matter was not of importance and need not be taken into account. That was a year ago. Now I further learn from the Papers presented that the German Government had a better case for their action than I thought they had. It appears they have been in the habit of making express treaty stipulations with regard to what are to be the relations between the mother country and the colonies, and that, in the case of France, the arrangement was
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that France was to be free to make any arrangement she liked with her colonies. That is recognised as part of the treaty If you have special recognition of these facts in treaties, it at least leads to the supposition that they are open questions unless expressly mentioned. We had a treaty with Germany which expressly excluded the right of making any such arrangements. That treaty was discontinued. We gave notice that that treaty was to be discontinued, and I think the German Government were at least within their rights in demanding that this matter should be reserved as the subject of negotiation in a future treaty.
There are some points in the correspondence of the Foreign Office in this matter with which I have no fault to find. The last despatch of Lord Lansdowne ends by saying—
"I have thought it desirable to make these observations in reply to those contained in Baron von Richthofen's note. It seems to me, however, that if the question is to be further discussed, it would be to the advantage of both sides that it should, as suggested by Baron von Richthofen, take the form of an exchange of ideas in regard to the means of obviating the present difference, and His Majesty's Government would certainly be ready to approach such a discussion in a considerate spirit."
I cordially reciprocate that. It is a matter for discussion and negotiation. I go further mid say I sympathise with the object of His Majesty's Government that there should be freedom between themselves and the self-governing colonies to make their own arrangements. All that is a proper subject for negotiation. But in view of the fact that it was stated to be of no importance, it is not justified by the speech we have heard to-day. The Government treated this question as a question of no importance for about four years. They then came to the decision last year with the colonies themselves that the thing really did not matter, and the colonies had their own remedy in their own hands. They have now decided that it is a question on which they have to negotiate with foreign Powers. I have no objection to the negotiations, but they are not now entitled, after all that has passed, after their own admission, after their own delay, to Cake up the line of indignation and surprise which we have heard of on, other occasions. There is, further, in

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these Papers regarding the correspondence with the Government of Germany a significant passage which has not been referred to in the debate. Baron Rich thofen said it might be difficult to induce the Reichstag in Germany to continue the most-favoured-nation treatment, not to any British colony, but to the United Kingdom itself. My contention was that that was very little else than loose talk.
LORD CRANBORNE: In a formal note?
SIR EDWARD GREY: But he also commented on it afterwards. My impression is that it was loose talk. It was an expression of opinion about the Reichstag, not an exposition of the policy of the German Government—an expression of opinion by Governments as what my happen in our Parliaments if not the same as a declaration of policy of their own Foreign Office. But, admitting that it was seriously intended to influence His Majesty's Government, I contend that His Majesty's Government in any such case have the remedy in their own hands. It is possible, and I have admitted It before, that there might be some act of hostile discrimination against this country on the part of a foreign Power. But if so, it would be the duty of the Government not to raise great questions of principle and fiscal policy at large, but to come to the House of Commons to make what proposal case. In this instance they have done perfectly right in answering the German contention, by pointing out that there was a complete diplomatic answer to it—namely, that Germany held Canada to be a separate fiscal unit. The fiscal policy of Canada was no reason whatever why the fiscal policy of this country should be affected. There was no evidence that that answer was not accepted by the Government of Germany. I regard hostile discrimination of this kind as exceptional and improper, and if it occurred I think it would be the duty of every party to consider any proposal the Government might any proposal the Government might put before them for meeting such a policy. At all events, do not let us have any loose talk about retaliation until we
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have some idea of what we mean by it. There are cases in which retaliation would be the very worst way of meeting such a difficulty. Supposing such a difficulty arose in the United States, would you put a duty on raw cotton? It do not think commercial retaliation is necessarily the remedy at all. There are cases where it might be a perfectly safe and effective remedy, but there are other cases where it would be the most difficult and dangerous one we could use, and if I consider that the German Government have no right to indulge in what I believe was loose talk about the most-favoured-nation treatment, I also think that our Government ought not to indulge in loose talk about retaliation. Retaliation, or commercial retaliation, in nine cases out of ten, is like a weapon with a leaden point and a sharp handle, it does not, hurt those against whom it is directed, but only hurts those who use I think it was absurd to raise a question connected with the fiscal policy of this country until you had some exceptional question before you. The mere fact that a statement of this kind passed in negotiation is no foundation for leading the country to suppose that we are in an imminent crisis which requires further action. I have nothing more to say upon the case. I believe hon. friends behind me have other questions to raise. I w only say again that on the whole question I see nothing not capable of treatment by the ordinary methods of negotiation, no evidence whatever to show that the ordinary methods of negotiation have failed, and no reason why the country should be asked to take this new departure.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. J CHAMBERLAIN, Birmingham, W.): I only intervene to say a few words with reference to that portion of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman which referred particularly to the question of German discrimination against Canada, because the general attack upon Foreign Office management, made in the course of the previous speeches, has already been replied to by my noble friend in a manner which is satisfactory, at all events, to his own side the House, whatever view the Opposition may take of it. But the question

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raised by the right hon. Baronet, who has just sat down, does affect, in a special way, the Department I represent. I hope I have not been guilty of any discourtesy in regard to the phrase be quoted.
SIR EDWA RD GREY: I referred to a phrase the right hon. Gentleman used, but I do not take it as any discourtesy.
MR. CHAMBERLAIN: I certainly did not mean it as such, but I dill not quite understand from his speech what was the point about which he had a disposition to question my language. Perhaps the best way to reply would to remind the right hon. Gentleman of what actually took place. As lie knows, after the preference was given by Canada to this country, the German Government withdrew their most-favoured-nation treatment to Canada. That withdrawal constituted a discrimination against Canada on the avowed ground that Canada had given a special preference to the mother country. When that took place discussion arose, in the first instance between the Dominion and His Majesty's Government, and the Dominion asked us what steps we were prepared to take in the matter. Thereupon communications were made with Germany, but without any result. We communicated the failure of our representations to the Dominion of Canada, and then the Dominion of Canada took the matter to a certain extent into its own hands. Technically, of course, no negotiations were going on between Canada and Germany, but what might be called an interchange of views between certain persons, who might be said to be representatives of Canada and the Consul-General of Germany. They were not in a proper and technical sense negotiations. We have not received any record of them, and as far as I know of no such record exists. In any case they would have no final authority, because any treaty would be made formally between this country on behalf of Canada and the German Government. But these private communications between certain members of the Canadian Government and the Consul-General of Germany had no further result than our communications with Germany. Up to this
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time there has not been the slightest inclination On the part of Germany to meet us upon this subject, and that is how the question remains. The Canadian Government explained that they had constantly hoped for what they considered more reasonable treatment from the Government of Germany, and that therefore they hesitated to take the matter into their own hands, and retaliate in any way on German trade.
But when the last Conference was hell with the Colonial Premiers, the matter came up again for discussion; it was discussed at the Conference, and at much greater length between the Canadian Minister and myself; there was nothing, secret about it in any way. The Canadian Minister stated the reason why they strongly objected to this arrangement. They said it had been the subject of discussion more, perhaps, as a matter.of sentiment than as a matter of any particular importance, but that what was felt in Canada was that the mother country was not sufficiently protecting her children. It was agreed by the Canadian Minister that it was not a matter of large practical importance, first, because the trade between Canada and Germany was not large, and in the second place Canada takes more goods from Germany than Germany takes from Canada. Accordingly, Canada has always had it in her own hands to strike a considerable blow if she thought it desirable to do so. The result of this discussion was summarised in an account of the Conference to which the right hon. Gentleman refers. I would like to read a little more fully than he did. He said it was stated that the, matter was of no importance. That was not quite the case. It was of great sentimental importance for the reasons I have given, but in one sense it was also of great practical importance. The words of the reporter of the Conference are—
"As, however, the exports from the colonies to foreign countries are almost exclusively articles of food or raw materials for foreign industries, the possibility of discrimination against them in foreign markets was not regarded as serious, and as the exports from foreign countries to the colonies are mainly manufactured articles, it was recognised that if such discrimination did take place the.

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colonies had an effective remedy in their own hands."
That is true. The Colonial Ministers have returned to their several Governments, and in the last Budget of the Dominion of Canada the Government of Canada resolved to take the effective remedies which were in their own hands, and they accordingly put on a discriminating duty against German goods to the amount of 33 per cent. That was a very effective remedy. Then what happened? In the meantime, let me say, I had of course, pointed out to the Canadian Minister, and the Ministers of the arrangements were what they had been for a great many years past it was not possible for us to help them otherwise than by negotiation, and that I did not anticipate the negotiations would prove the slightest good until we are able to say, "unless we can get a good settlement we should be prepared to retaliate." That is an absolutely frank and fair statement of the position as it existed at the time the last Colonial Conference. That was the position at the time Canada resolved to take the remedy at her hand.
What has been the result of that action on the part of Canada? Germany at once announced its intention—I ought not perhaps to say that. It is sufficient for me to say that the newspapers of Germany were at once full of the intention of Germany to indulge in further retaliation. We were warned by the German Government themselves, in a formal note presented to Sir Frank Lascelles, that they thought that it appeared doubtful, especially having regard to the opposition to be expected in the Reichstag, whether the intention of giving most-favoured-nation treatment to Great Britain could be realised if Germany were differentiated against in important parts of the British Empire, and if, in particular, the report was confirmed that German goods would be less favourably treated than British goods, not only in Canada, but also in British South Africa. The Committee will see front this that the question assumed an infinitely greater importance; because we were informed by Germany not merely that she would continue and increase this policy against Canada, but that she was doing it with a special object—namely, that of preventing any other British Colony from following the example of Canada. As we know that
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there was a clear indication at the Colonial Conference of the willingness of all the self-governing colonies, without exception, to give us a preference in the future, this action on the part of Germany was a threat, directed in the first place against the colonies, that they should be penalized if they carried out that and it was carried out that in tention; and it was a threat, in the second place, against this country, that if we did not intervene to prevent the colonies from giving us this preference we should be made to suffer by means of retaliatory treatment on the part of Germany. That is the state of things disclosed by the recent correspondence which has been laid on the Table of the House. The right hon. Baronet said something about the indignation and surprise which found expression in this House. I do not know to what he refers, but he will bear in mind that in my speech on the question I expressed no indignation on the question I expressed no indignation and certainly no perfectly natural that as long as Germany believed that our policy would be a policy of—I was going to say passive resistance—a policy of no resistance at all, it was probable that her statesmen, acting as they believed in the interest of her trade, would continue the policy to which, of course, we took the greatest exception. Without expressing any surprise or indignation, we have, I have, I think, made it perfectly clear that in the furture—so far, at any rate as our Government are concerned—we will not permit this discrimination to continue without taking all the steps in our power to bring it to a close; and I rejoice to think that these declarations, clearly made and, as I believe, supported by the vast mass of the people of this country, have already had their effect. We are now invited to negotiations upon the subject, which may very likely lead to more satisfactory results than those previous negotiations which failed completely because we were obliged to avow that we had no weapon in our hands in order to make a bargain.
Mr. ASQUITH (Fifeshire, E.):I will refer before I sit down to the concluding observations of the right hon. Gentleman's speech which raised questions of policy, but before doing so I should like to refresh his memory as to the actual facts of the matter with which we are dealing.

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I am not going to take up the cudgels on behalf of Germany, or to make any attack upon Canada. Nothing is farther from my desire or sympathies in the matter. But we must get at the historical facts; and when the right hon. Gentleman says it began by Germany making a hostile discrimination against Canada, he really is not stating accurately what took place. What happened was this. Canada proposed to give a preference to the goods of this country. There was at the time a treaty between us and Germany which treated the British Empire as a whole as a fiscal unity. The result was that if Canada carried out her intention there would be a breach of the treaty. It was therefore necessary for the Government of the day to denounce that treaty in order to clothe Canada with the fiscal autonomy which was necessary to enable her to carry out her intention. The result of the denunciation of the treaty was that not only Canada, but the whole British Empire came, or would have coarse, automatically under the German general tariff, which, of course, is the maximum tariff. Thereupon Germany said she had no objection to give the most-favoured-nation treatment
MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: May I ask how does that differ in arty respect from what I have said? Practically the result of the action of Germany was to put Canada, and Canada alone, in a position of disfavour because she had differentiated, not against the rest of the world, but in favour of the mother country.
MR. ASQULTH: Canada having refused to give Germany most-favoured-nation treatment, Germany said they could not give it to Canada. That is the sum and substance of the matter. The point which the right hon. gentleman has left unexplained is the action of the Government in the matter. The question having originated in the way I have described, Canada came under the operation
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of the German general tariff at the end of July, 1898. For two years from that date, until May or June, 1900, the only thing that was done by His Majesty's Government was the sending of a despatch by Lord Salisbury inquiring whether Germany was not treating the French, Spanish, and Portuguese colonies in a different manner, from our colonies. The explanation of Germany was that she was bound by special treaties to give that treatment to those colonies, and Lord Salisbury appears to have acquiesced in the explanation. At any rate, nothing further was done. That is the history of the first two years. Now I come to a very important and significant fact to which the Colonial Secretary has not referred—that is, to the declaration made on behalf of the German Government in May, 1900, by the. Prussian Minister of the Interior in proposing to the Reichstag a Bill for the extension of the existing arrangements. The Minister said:—
"When single British colonies deviate from the present arrangement, and refuse most-favoured-nation treatment, there are Only two courses open—either to apply the autonomous tariff to those single British colonies or to a considerable portion of the British Colonial Empire, which differentiate against Germany, or to utilise the power of applying the autonomous tariff against the whole of the British dominions throughout the world."
In other words, this very same threat, as the right hon. Gentleman calls it, which assumed so serious an aspect when put in. la contingent and hypothetical form in April, 1903—just before the new fiscal campaign was inaugurated—this very same threat, expressed in very much more categorical language, was passed entirely unnoticed in May, 1900, by His Majesty's Government. They took it lying down. That was in May or June, 1900. But what becomes of the next two years? We have heard of these pour parlers—which apparently were not negotiations at Montreal, as to which, after the remarks of my right hon. friend, I hope we shall have placed before us the materials which have apparently been submitted to the Canadian House of Commons, as negotiations of that kind, by whatever diplomatic term they are described, form an important link in this chapter of history. With the exception of those negotiations which the

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right hon. Gentleman told us were abortive, nothing took place until the Colonial Conference of last year. Then the whole thing was belittled to the utmost possible degree by the Coloniai Secretary himself. [MINISTERIAL cries of "No."] I will give chapter and verse. What I mean to say is that the right hon. Gentleman then treated the matter in what I venture to think is its true proportions: but lie belittled it as compared with his present attitude towards it. Speaking at the Colonial Conference the right hon. Gentleman, addressing the Premiers, spoke in the most disparaging language of this Canadian preference to this country. I will quote his words—
"Canada, therefore, has anticipated the general proposal of the Premiers, and the time which has elapsed has been sufficient to enable us to form a judgment of the effect of an arrangement, of this kind, and I have to say to you that, while I cannot but gratefully acknowledge the intention of this proposal and its sentimental value as a proof of goodwill and affection, yet that its substantial results have been altogether disappointing to us, and I think they must have been equally disappointing to its promoters."
The right hon Gentleman then went on to point out that the increase of the foreign trade with Canada since the preferential tariff was brought into existence had been greater in proportion than the increase of the British trade with Canada.
MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: The right hon. Gentleman said he would give chapter and verse. He must remember that that was an argument to induce Canada to give us a greater preference, and that Canada did, through her Minister, agree to give us a greater preference, if we could give her some thing in return.
MR. ASQUITH: At any rate, it was the right hon. Gentleman's description of the state of things which then existed, and I think I am justified in saying that whatever the other intentions of the right hon. Gentleman may have been, his main object was to get Canada to contribute more to the support of the British Navy. However, I am not going to quarrel about that, because it is not very material, Obviously in the view of the right hon. Gentleman at that time it was a matter
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of very little moment at all. The passage already quoted from the Minutes completely bears out that view because it says, dealing with this question of retaliation—
"The possibility of discrimination against foreign markets was not regarded as serious, and as the exports of foreign countries to the colonies are mainly manufactured articles, it was recognised, if such discrimination did take place, the colonies had an effective remedy in their own hands."
Does the right hon. Gentleman mean to tell us that he suggested that retaliation could or might take the form of action on the part of this country and not on the part of the colonies?
MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: No, I meant exactly the reverse.
MR ASQUITH: So I should have thought. What was pointed out to Canada was that if the effect of giving a preference to the goods of this country deprives you of most-favoured-nation treatment in Germany, you have a remedy in your own hands—the Canadians did use the remedy and put a surtax upon German goods—and those measures he sail would be effective for the purpose. I will now pass on to summarise the history of these transactions. Here we have a state of things brought into existence in July, 1898, to abate which no step is taken by His Majesty's Government for four years, and when at the end of these four years the matter comes to be discussed between the Government and the colonies, the colonies are told: "You have an adequate remedy in your own hands.' What is the additional weapon which the right hon. Gentleman has got? Only the language used by Baron Richthofen on the 23rd of April of the present year at a most opportune moment, something like three weeks before the inauguration of the new fiscal policy. It appears that Baron von Richthofen wrote a note in these terms—
"The Imperial Government think, however, that they should not conceal the fact that it appears doubtful, especially having regard to the opposition to he expected in the Reichstag, whether this intention can he realised if Germany is differentiated against in important parts of the British Empire, and if, in particular, the report is confirmed that German goods will in the future be less favourably treated than British, not only in Canada, but also in British South Africa."
That note is explained on the following

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page in a letter dated the 23rd of April, in which it is stated that Baron Von Richthofen said to Sir Frank Lascelles that—
"It would be very difficult to obtain the consent of the Reichstag to the prolongation of most-favoured-nation treatment to Great Britain herself."
Whereupon our Ambassador seems to have replied—
"If any serious damage were done to British trade by the non-prolongation of must-favoured-nation treatment, the outcry in England would be so great that His Majesty's Government would be forced, however unwillingly, to take retaliatory measures."
Here we have the Baron von Richthofen threatening what the Reichstag would not do, and then you have the British Ambassador on the other side threatening the German Government as to the state of public opinion in England. That is the whole foundation of this menace by Germany of retaliation. I quite agree with Lord Lansdowne's criticism, which I think is most just and neatly and accurately expressed as regards this threat; that it ought never to have been used, because it was totally inconsistent with the position the German Government had taken up. They say—"We will attack you, Great Britain, who have nothing whatever to do with the matter, and are free from all responsibility for it." That is a position which is wholly inconsistent with all they have done in previous years. So far I entirely agree with Lord Lansdowne's criticisms. When we are asked to treat this as though it amounted to an actual case which calls for retaliation on our part against Germany, a more flimsy material to base such a suggestion upon has never been heard of. The very same thing had been expressed, only in much stronger language, more than two years ago by a German Minister in the Reichstag, and no notice whatever was taken of it by His Majesty's Government.
I want, in order that we may have no misunderstanding about this, to say one word, not as to the facts but as to the questions of policy which they suggest. I hear a great deal in these days ahem what is called retaliation, and what does retaliation mean? It is used in current controversies in two entirely different senses, and with two entirely different applications. It may refer to the actual and existing state of things, or it may
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refer to a hypothetical and possible state of things. The actual state of things is this—that the great majority of the countries of the world, including our own colonies, have surrounded themselves with protective tariffs which they employ impartially as against the whole world, except in so far as they have been relaxed by stipulations in commercial treaties. I suspect that a great many people when they talk of retaliation mean to attack that system, and mean that although we have no special grievance of our own but only share a common exclusion with the rest of the world from the markets of the protected country, yet there is some obligation on our part to take aggressive steps against that country. That is protection pure and simple. It is an attempt to fight protection abroad by protection at home, and there is no man, whether he calls himself a free trader or not, who has grasped the doctrine of free trade who would ever consent to accept it. There is another sense in which the term retaliation is used, and it is, so far as I know, a purely hypothetical case in which a foreign country does make a hostile discrimination against a particular State. It may do so either by imposing an extra import duty upon the produce of that State, or what comes to the same thing, by refusing to admit the produce of that State under the most-favoured-nation treatment, which it is willing to grant to its rivals. It may take either of these forms. When that is done, if it is done, and I assume it is done without provocation and justification, it is, in my opinion, what in diplomatic language is called "unfriendly action." The notion that you are bound to lie down, as the Colonial Secretary says, and allow yourselves to be kicked simply because the hostile action taken against you attacks not your own territory but your trade is a pure illusion, and a notion not entertained by any human being. It is certainly no part of the doctrine of free trade. You can repel hostile action in virtue of the elementary law of self-preservation and self-defence, but where we differ, and differ profoundly, from those who talk about retaliation is this—it is a question by what method, it is not a question of the right of defence but what is the most effectual and most expedient method of making your defence good. Very often

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our best plan is to leave things entirely alone.[MINISTERIAL laugher] Hon. Gentlemen laugh, but I strongly maintain that proposition. I will say that it is very often much better to leave things alone, because a foreign country which imposes this hostile duty will lie found in the long run to be doing more harm to its own trade than to that of any body else. It is restricting the market upon which it depends for the exchange of its goods. I do not commit myself to the proposition that yon must never take, in a case of this kind, action of any sort at all. The action you take must be governed by the facts of the particular ease when it arises, but no such case has arisen. I will venture to lay down two general rules. The first is, that in matters of this kind it is never wise to rely upon the policy of bluff, just as in the other sphere, that of diplomacy properly so called, a loud and blustering attitude is not always the best and does not always reference to this long period in which he avert the risk of war. I will suggest another equally important proposition and it is this—it can never be wise in such a case to resort to such a weapon because it does the nation which uses it more harm than the nation against which it is directed. It may do infinitely greater injury to your own trade by retaliation than the injury you inflict upon the country against whom that retaliation is directed. I repeat that it is obvious from this correspondence that we are not face to face with any such situation. I earnestly hope, as Baron von man seems to think that everything Richthofen says, and as Lord Lansdowne says, that this matter is going to be settled by friendly negotiation. I have risen for the purpose of pointing out that this notion that we must make some fundamental change in our fiscal system to have the power of dealing with a situation like this is, if I may so call it, a bogey, conjured up absolutely out of nothing, which has been magnified, as any rate, into unnatural and monstrous proportions in order to curdle the blood and muddle the brains of ignorant and nervous people.
THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester,E.): I am not quite sure that I understand the object with which the right hon. Gentleman has given us his version of the history of the transaction in connection with
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preferential duties between the colonies and the mother country. I fear I failed to appreciate rightly whether he thought that we delayed action too long, or whether he disapproved of the action which we did take. He appeared to hesitate between the two lines. Does he think that we have done in 1903 what we have done in 1903 what we ought to have done in 1899, or that what we have done in 1903 ought not to have been done at all?
MR. ASQUITH: You have done nothing that I know of.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I beg the right hon. Gentleman's pardon. We made representations to Germany which changed the whole face of the negotiations. And let me tell him that is a good deal to have done. When the right hon. Gentlemen criticizes us in reference to this long period in which he says we have done noting, does he think we ought to have taken action sooner, or does he mean that we ought not to have take action at all? I am at a loss to understand. In his ambiguous and double-faced criticism of the Government in appears to me that the right hon. Gentlemen has not given strictly accurate account of the facts. When I say "double-faced" I do not mean to use the phrase in an offensive sense; I mean looking two ways, and having an opposite aspect. The right hon. Gentleman seems to think that everything Baron von Richthofen said in 1903 was said to us by the German Government in 1899. That really is not the case. He will find the passage which he quotes is a passage not from representations made to our Ambassador, not from representations made to this Government at all, but from a speech by Baron von Richthofen in the Reichstag. He will find that that speech was not connected with Canadian tariffs—I think I am right in saying this—but with some action taken by Barbados, and what Barbados has done does not at all correspond with what Canada has done. Barbados did not propose differential duties simply for the exemption of the mother country. Barbados made an arrangement in which other countries besides the mother country were involved. I believe I have given an accurate account

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of the transaction, but I admit I have only hastily glanced at it while the right hon. Gentleman was speaking, and I may possibly have made a mistake, though I do not think I have.
MR. BRYCE: Baron von Richthofen's speech was made on the question of the adoption of the Bill, which would have had general application.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The occasion of it was not Canada, but Barbados, and the action of Barbados was not parallel with the action of Canada. But I regard that aspect of the controversy as of secondary importance. After all, what does the complaint of the right hon. Gentleman amount to, if it is a complaint? An assertion that we have done nothing for two years. Those, Sir, were two years in which we were involved in a tremendous struggle in South Africa, not very convenient years, not a very suitable opportunity, for entering into a controversy, which I admit was not at that time a pressing controversy, with a Continental neighbour. The right hon. Gentleman has truly said that Canada was not suffering from this action of Germany. If she had been suffering from it, we should have been obliged then and there, at whatever cost, to have intervened in her favour. She was not suffering financially; and it seems to me that it was not only not imprudent, but it was most wise and most prudent not to press on in haste at that particular juncture of our history a diplomatic controversy which had no pressing or immediate financial importance to the colony concerned. There is a much more important question behind that on which the right lion. Gentleman, in spite of the sentence which fell from him at the end of his speech, has not given us a very clear lead. He talked about unfriendly action. I do not know whether I came under the condemnation of the right hon. Gentleman or not; but I am, at all events, not sufficiently clearheaded to have discovered exactly what the policy is which lie recommends. Is he, or is he not, when one of our colonies is discriminated against because it gives preferential treatment to the mother country—is he, or is he not, in favour of an absolutely passive attitude? That is
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a perfectly clear and explicit question. I am ready to give it, for my own part, a perfectly clear and explicit answer. Is the right hon. Gentleman, or are his friends? I understand that they are not. The right hon. Gentleman told us a great deal of what free traders could do and could not do, what is consistent with free trade arid what is not consistent with free trade. And even there I did not quite follow him, because I understood it was inconsistent with free trade ever to attempt to modify a foreign tariff in a free trade direction by threatening any fiscal action on our part; but it was not inconsistent with free trade to go to war, as I understand it, supposing fiscal action is taken against us individually, and not against other nations. I do not follow the right hon. Gentleman's view. I presume that he will admit that a retaliatory tariff is less expensive and, on the whole, less objectionable than war.
MR. ASQUITHassented.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Very well. He will admit that, therefore, if war is justified by an unfriendly act, à fortiori, retaliation is justified.
MR. ASQUITH: I never mentioned or suggested war.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The right hon. Gentleman talked of the rights of nations and what they regard as unfriendly acts. If that did not mean war I do not know what it did mean. At all events, he will admit that the milder, and less costly, and on the whole, more humane method of dealing with this unfriendly act is to deal with it by fiscal retaliation rather than by military retaliation. His view as a free trader is this—and he talked with an air of pontifical orthodoxy which, I must say, surprised me—that if a nation directs its tariffs against this country to a greater degree than it directs its tariff hostility against other countries, that is an unfriendly act and against that you may retaliate in order to produce a modification of the tariff; but if the modification affects other countries besides this country, then free trade conies in, and free trade orthodoxy absolutely forbids any such action. I am not quite sure whether that is logic. The right hon. Gentleman should reconsider the

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theoretical basis of his policy. In the meanwhile, I should be grateful for an explicit answer to the question I have put. Am I wrong in understanding that, according to the right hon. Gentleman's view, Germany may do what it likes against one of our colonies and we must not retaliate? Is that his view or is it not? It is not our view. The views which we hold may or may not be inconsistent with the right hon. Gentleman's views of political economy and of free trade. Whether they are or are not inconsistent with his view, they are opinions to which we adhere; they appear to us to be the only opinions which, as members of the Empire, we can consistently hold, and I do not believe that the right hon Gentleman with all his ingenuity, will ever persuade the citizens of this country to take any other attitude upon this subject. I ant afraid I have travelled a little beyond the. Vote which my noble friend is defending, but it will be admitted that I have little choice after the speech which the right hon. Gentleman has made. I can only hope that I have succeeded in making my position more clear and explicit than the right hon. Gentleman has been able to make his view to those of us who have listened to him attentively on this subject.
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: The only contribution that I am aware that the right hon. Gentleman has made towards the exposition of his views to the House and to the country is to demand in a peremptory fashion front my right hon. friend beside me what his views are. The whole country is waiting with the utmost impatience to know what the views of the right hon. Gentleman are—what the proposals of the Government are in general, but particularly what are the views of the right hon. Gentleman himself—whether his convictions are still in a perfectly unsettled state, or whether he has really at last been able to come to some conclusion or other on the subject. And it is in this condition in which he has set himself before the country that he thinks he triumphantly disposes of the arguments of my right hon. friend by asking him what he would do in certain circumstances. The right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues cannot get out, as it seems to me, of this dilemma with regard to the question of the colonies. Have
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they fiscal independence, or have they not? You cannot have it both ways. Which is the way that the Government prefer and adopt? The right hon. Gentleman talked of being double-faced, and looking both ways. The Government have been looking both ways—first one way and then another—throughout these proceedings. Here is an interesting document. I am not going into the question of Baron von Richthofen and all the circumstances contained in the Blue-book, which, I think, have been sufficiently examined and criticised. But I have here a little document, which, I think, throws some light upon the subject. It is a treaty recently concluded with the Government of Persia—"Ratifications exchanged at Teheran on 27th May, 1903." What does Article 2 of this Treaty say? This Government, who want to know everybody else's views, have during the last four or five years said first one thing old then another. Article 2 of this treaty says—
"It is formally stipulated that British subjects and British imports into Persia, as well as Persian subjects and Persian imports into the British Empire, shall continue to enjoy under all conditions most-favoured-nation treatment. It is understood that a British colony having a special Customs tariff, and which may cease to grant most-favoured-nation treatment to Persian imports, will no longer have the right to claim the same treatment, for its own imports into Persia."
I want to know what does this point to if it does not point to the case of preferential duties between the colonies and the mother country, and the mother country, forsooth, is to go to the rescue—
LORD CRANBORNE: If the right hon. Gentleman will permit me to interrupt him, I would say that the negotiators on behalf of the Persian Government were not so unreasonable as the right hon. Gentleman supposes. We made specific inquiry whether they considered that the passage which the right hon. Gentleman has read would exclude the colonies in respect of Persian trade from making a special arrangement with the mother country, and we were informed that the Persian Government did not take that view at all, and that they looked upon what passed between us and the colonies as a purely domestic matter.
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I would suggest that the noble Lord should procure the cancelling of this treaty with Persia, and substitution of a new treaty more exactly expressing what he says. When did they receive this assurance from the Government of Persia? I deal with the words of the treaty, and I say this can point to nothing else but the institution of preferential duties with the mother country, and this is the way the mother country goes to the rescue of her children. The next clause is not quite so explicit, but it is in the same sense—
"In the event of the United Kingdom establishing duties in its general tariff without previous agreement with Persia,"
and so on, then—
"Persia shall have the right to impose in its turn corresponding duties on articles of the same description coming from the United kingdom."
I say the whole of this arrangement with Persia is inconsistent with the theories put forward now by the Government in respect of this matter. And although I said I would pass over Baron von Richthofen's little episode, yet I think there is this point in it which has not been noticed, but which is worth attending to. What he alleges is that the Reichstag may make difficulties in the event of preferential duties being granted in the case not only of Canada, but possibly in the case of South Africa. It appears to be the expectation or the fear of that course being taken in South Africa that is especially likely to affect the judgment of the Reichstag. We have had a convention within a short time at Bloemfontein. The representatives, the so-called representatives, of the different States in South Africa were present, and they have agreed to allow preferential duties to the mother country. But two of those States agreeing to take this course are Crown colonies, not self-governing colonies, so that surely in that case the mother country would be brought in. That may be one of the reasons why the Baron von Richthofen considers that action against the mother country would he justified. I think that is a fair conclusion to come to. It is not a case in South Africa of self-governing colonies alone, but there are other colonies which must be held by
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foreign Powers to stand or fall with the interests of the mother country.
MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: Does, the right hon. Gentleman suggest that, in the event of Germany retaliating against the mother country, because her Crown colonies give her preference, we should not interfere and retaliate again?
SIR H CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I think the Baron von Richthofen or any one else, would be very likely to say that if the Crown colonies, for which the right hon. Gentleman is responsible, took a certain course, then he cannot, in another capacity, refuse the responsibility which he has so assumed.
MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: And would you not allow us to defend ourselves?
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: That is a very ingenious, but not very effective, method of getting out of the difficulty. We can deal with the case when it arises if we are called upon to deal with it. It is the right hon. Gentleman himself and the Prime Minister who are now advising the country as to the general policy they are to pursue. It is they who have to meet these questions when they arise, and not we who sit on this side of the House. As to the question of retaliation, the right hon. Gentleman asked triumphantly, as I have said, whether retaliation would be resorted to. My right hon. friend, in very clear and very strong language, showed how mischievous a policy of retaliation in most cases is—how it recoils upon those who use it much more than it injures those against whom it is employed. Beyond stating those general principles he was not called upon, and he is really not in a position, to answer the particular question put by the right hon. Gentleman.
MR. JOHN REDMOND: On probably the last occasion on which the House will have the opportunity of discussing questions on the Foreign Office Vote I wish to call the attention of the Committee and the noble Lord to what I consider very little less than a public scandal, for which the Foreign Office is directly responsible. It has always been

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the boast of the Government of this country that it has an arm long enough and strong enough to protect the liberty and property of British subjects throughout the world, and the question I desire to bring under the attention of the noble Lord is an instance where the Government of England has lamentably failed in the duty of protecting the property of British subjects resident in a foreign nation. I allude to the recent confiscation of the property of a number of British subjects belonging to a religious order in Douai. Now, I am quite aware of the fact that it is not competent for me on tins occasion to discuss the policy which the French Government has been pursuing with reference to these orders in France. Whatever our individual opinions upon that subject may be, and however strongly some of us may believe that that policy is a disgrace to Christendom; at the same time it would not be in order for me to enter upon a discussion of that policy at this moment. The question I desire to raise is a very narrow and a very simple one, and does not call in question the general policy of the French Government with reference to tire expulsion of these orders from France. The case of the Benedictine monks in Douai is a very remarkable and singular one. The history of their establishment in Douai is a most interesting one. The foundation dates back to the seventeenth century. It was established entirely by English money and by Englishmen, and it has devoted itself entirely, to the education of English youths; and, as I understand, it has not been possible for tins institution either to have French priests amongst them or to educate a French boy. Well, from the day of its establishment down to the very day when it ceased to exist that establishment was devoted, as I have said, entirely to English purposes and was carried on by Englishmen. The property of the institution was always recognised by the French Government as English property. It is very interesting to remember that in the time of the great Revolution when the National Assembly in Paris ordered the suppression of all similar religious institutions throughout the country, a special exemption was made in the case of Douai, on the distinct ground that it was British property, and when they were carrying out the decree of the Convention, and when the property of these religious
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institutions in France was seized and sold, this particular establishment to which I allude was exempted on the ground that it was British property, and should not be touched. But shortly afterwards when war broke out between France and this country, the property was seized by the French Government because it was British property. The National Convention decreed the arrest of British subjects and the confiscation of their property, and under that order the monks of Douai Were arrested and sent to jail, and their property was confiscated. But after a while, when Napoleon came upon the scene, a better frame of mind sprang up in France, and almost immediately negotiations were set afoot for the purpose of considering whether the British property should not he restored, and, after years of investigation and negotiation, tiredly the Treaty of Paris in 1814 secured that this confiscated property belonging to English subjects might to be restored.
LORD GRAN BORNE: Before the Treaty of Paris.
MR. JOHN REDMOND: Well, if I am wrong the noble Lord can, I daresay, set me right. At any rate, at that time investigations whether this property should be given back were set on foot. What had occurred is most interesting. Some of it could not be returned because it was destroyed. Other parts of it were intact arid could be restored. What, happened was this: a sum of money amounting, I believe, to something like £300,000 was given by the French Government to the English Government in compensation for that portion of the property which had been ruined and destroyed, and the British Government, when it came to the distributing of the money to their subjects, held that because this property had been used for Catholic purposes that being before the Catholic Emancipation Act was passed—they could not restore it, and they did not restore it, and I believe that from that day to this it has remained in their hands. But I only mention that incidentally because that is not at all the property I am speaking of now. I put the question, whether they ought not to get a share of that £300,000, aside altogether. I am not dealing with the property which was not destroyed at the time of the Revolution, and which remained intact, and

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which was given back to them, I think, in the year 1818. From that day to this, this institution remained there in the enjoyment of its property, and nobody suggested that it was anything else than British property, and the Government themselves do not deny that it is essentially British property. When the law was passed in France for the suppression of the collegiate institutions of this kind, everybody thought that by reason of the past history of the institution the new law would not apply to it at all, and the monks of Douai were informed by the British representatives in France that in their opinion they would be perfectly safe. But, notwithstanding that, to make assurance doubly sure, they sent in a petition for authorisation. Their petition for authorisation was never even examined. The examination was refused, and they were told that at the end of two or three months they should leave their college, and when the time was up to their intense surprise not only were they forced to leave, but an official of the Government walked in and seized their entire property. Their country-house and grounds, their college buildings, their chapels, their library of twenty thousand books, even their personal property, was seized, and they were tinned out with the clothes on their backs and their breviaries. Every penny of that property was British property invested by British subjects for British purposes, and every penny of it was confiscated. That seemed an extraordinary state of things, and one would have thought that the British Government was strong enough, and willing enough, to prevent it.
He believed during the last thirty years large sums of money had been spent upon this college. Every penny of it was English money, and an extraordinary thing occurred within the last few years. A well-known English gentleman, a Mr. Nall, well known probably to many Members of this House, a most benevolent and charitable man, built a new wing and spent £10,000 of his own money on it. He took up his residence there; and would it be believed that, although he never transferred this wing in any way to the Benedictines, and thought it was therefore his own property, he was turned out of it, and his property there which cost £10,000 was gone, and even as regarded his own
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private property—his furniture, his books—he had the greatest possible difficulty in retaining it. It seemed inconceivable. The complaint which the Douai Benedictines male was not about their expulsion. They were there in a sense, he agreed, as guests of the French nation, enjoying French hospitality on French soil. If France wished to withdraw that hospitality, and put them out of the country, that was a matter for France. They had no right to complain of that, although they knew that such conduct is a reproach to the civilisation of the 20th century. What he complained of was the monstrous, barefaced, open robbery of the private property of these English gentlemen, who devoted their lives and all their English money to the education of the English students at their colleges. What he was asking of the Government was not any interference on the ground of expulsion. What he asked was the intervention of the Government to prevent this open and bare-faced robbery. Surely, it had always been the boast of the British Government that they could defend the property, as well as the lives of their fellow-subjects in all parts of the world. The Benedictines naturally appealed to the Government, and Abbot Gasquet, the head of the Order in England, entered into communication with Lord Lansdowne upon the subject. He would read some extracts of the correspondence to show the attitude taken up by the Foreign Office on this matter. Abbot Gasquet wrote on 19th of April from Douai:
"We had been repeatedly assured by the authorities of this town, including the Mayor and the Deputies to the Chamber, that the laws lately passed in regard to the French religious corporations would not be found to affect our position as a wholly English establishment. Beyond this the English Ambassador in Paris declared most positively that even if our College should be closed, by an application of the laws, there could be, in our case, nothing in the way of confiscation of goods, nor any taking possession of our movables, with a view to a compulsory sale of what was unquestionably the property of English subjects. I was astonished, therefore, to find on my arrival here yesterday that not only had a decree been received directing that this establishment should be closed within three months, but that a liquidator had been appointed and had commenced his work by sequestrating our goods and compiling an inventory with a view to their being sold."
He enclosed with that letter to Lord Lansdowne a memorandum setting forth

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the history of the College, and showing how the foundation was made from purely English money. Here was the answer Abbot Gasquet received from the Foreign Office:
"I am to inform you that the Benedictine College at Douai, being situate in France, is governed by the laws of that country and not by the law of England. His Majesty's Ambassador at Paris took every step which was possible in the interests of the English bodies in France during the consideration of the Association Bill in the Chamber of Deputies, but it is beyond the power of His Majesty's Government to interfere to protect the community at Douai from the operation of the law of the country in which their establishment is situate."
Abbot Gasquet replied to that letter on the 5th of May, as follows:
"I made no appeal to you to use the influence and the authority of the British Government to enable us to stay in France in opposition to the law closing all similar establishments. My appeal was, as Englishmen, for the protection of our property, all of which is undoubtedly English, from the confiscation by the French Government which not only threatens it but which has already been begun. I shall be glad if your Lordship will award me an interview on this pressing subject at any line convenient to you. I can explain the matter verbally better than by letter, and could answer any questions about the status of our College and property. I cannot conceive that if the facts were known our Ambassador in Paris would sacrifice such large English interests without at least some attempt to save them. Meantime, I beg to enclose for your information a statement of facts in regard to our property in France which, I hope, will be sufficient to convince you that the French Government has always acknowledged the property in question as British."
Lord Lansdowne replied to that letter as follows—
"His Majesty's Ambassador at Paris is fully aware of the circumstances of the case and has done what is possible to obtain considerate treatment for the English Benedictines, but H.M. Government have no locus standi for further intervention. The points raised in your letter will, however, lie carefully examined in consultation with Sir Edmund Monson and the law officers of the Crown."
Had they no locus standi in Venezuela? It was always the boast of the English Government that they had a locus standi where robbery and oppression was meted out to their fellow-subjects. Then there was the final letter from Abbot Gasquet, in which he stated—
"The question I raised was a claim for compensation for the confiscation of British
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property by the application of the new French laws. It is not a question of law, for, as I understand, no question of compensation for injury made by one civilised nation to another for injury done to property ever is. It is a question of diplomatic representation and international equity, and even after the great French Revolution compensation was made for similar property under tie treaty of Paris. It is true some did not receive the money from the English government of the time; but the French Government admitted the justice and the claim by paying it."
It was clear from the correspondence that the Government did intervene at one stage when the Associations Law was passing through the French Chamber. Apparently the Government instructed their representative in Paris to use his good offices with the French Government; but what he wanted to know was, did the Government make any representations on the question of compensation? That was an entirely subsequent question. The English Orders had been made amenable under the general law, and had been expelled; but he wished to know whether any representations had been made on the subject of compensation. He hoped the noble Lord would be able to give an answer to the question. If representations had been made and had failed, then the British Government was in a most humiliating position. If no representations bad been made, he would beg Our Government to make them at once.
They had heard a great deal about the rapprochement between France and England—they all heard of it with the greatest interest for the sake of peace—and of the reception of the Ring in Paris, and the President of the French Republic in London, and even in this very building last evening expressions of goodwill were extended to representatives of the French nation. It was to the highest interests of France, as well as of England, that the two countries should remain good friends under existing conditions. Was it conceivable that in such circumstances a really determined demand on the part of the British Government to the French Government would be unsuccessful. They knew perfectly well it would not. If Sir Edmund Monson were in earnest in this matter, compensation would be given and justice done to those British subjects. He hoped the noble Lord would be able

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to give him an assurance in the matter. Reading the papers on Venezuela, he found that the cause of the stern action taken by England towards that country was, forsooth, because British property had been seized; and on the strength of that the Government did not hesitate to send its fleet, in conjunction with Germany, into Venezuelan waters, and to threaten the extinction of Venezuela as a state. He was not suggesting that the Government should have recourse to similar means in regard to France; hut it was a humiliating and contemptible position for the Government to occupy, that while they took action like that against Venezuela, they would not even use their good offices with a great friendly nation like France to protect the interests of British subjects. This was a case of hardship quite apart from the Associations law. He had his own opinion about that Law; but the question he now raised was a question of confiscation of admittedly British property, held by British subjects. He hoped action would be taken which would secure justice to the Benedictines.
LORD CRANBORNE: I cannot be surprised at the tone of the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite, who speaks on this matter with some heat. I quite understand how warmly his sympathy must be enlisted on behalf of these ecclesiastics. I cannot profess not to agree with him in deploring what has taken place through the political act of the French Legislature. On no occasion has such a law ever been passed in this country, and we cannot but be surprised, if I may say so without offence to the French nation, that their Government should have introduced such a law. I am sorry that our intervention has not been successful, because, as the hon. and learned Gentleman has well said, we have always professed to do our utmost to protect British subjects in every part of the world, but especially, where the particular community whose interests are at stake belong to a small minority of England, do we feel bound in honour to do what we can to safeguard their interests. I think, for the reasons I have stated, the hon. and learned Gentleman has not been quite fair to the Government. We have done the very best we can.
MR. JOHN REMOND: You have not intervened on the question of compensation.
LORD CRANBORNE: We intervened on the question of status and property. It is quite possible, as the hon. and learned Gentleman told us just now, that the local authorities at Douai had assured the Abbot that they thought the position of this establishment would not be included in the general law.
MR. JOHN REDMOND: Sir Edmund Monson stated that.
LORD CRANBORNE: That was, I think, the general view, because at the time it was supposed that the stringent provisions of this law would not be universally applied in France. I do not mean that it was thought that exceptions would be made on behalf of foreign establishments, but it was thought that the French Government themselves would have made distinctions. Various communities were invited to apply for authorisation, and it was generally conceded that in a large number of cases authorisation would be granted; but whatever the original intention was it was abandoned, and in deference to French public opinion the law was applied practically universally. The hon. and learned Gentleman has spoken of cruelties inflicted on British subjects in various parts of the world, whose rights had been vindicated. But our contention has always been that our subjects were entitled to be treated according to law and on an equality with the subjects of the foreign Power concerned. Unfortunately we were not able to apply the rule in this case. This Order was not one whit worse treated than any other French Order. We were met at once by the answer of the French Government: "We cannot make exceptions in the case of one community. If they live in France they live under the French law."
MR. JOHN REDMOND: They are leaving the country.
LORD CRANBORNE: I do not think the hon. and learned Gentleman has realised that the French law not merely expels the religious Orders, but also sequestrates their property. I have a

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word or two to say on the subject of sequestration before I sit down, but the French law went so far as to sequestrate the property of these Orders, and therefore it is impossible to make the appeal we generally do. We could not say they were treating Englishmen worse than anybody else, where everybody was being treated precisely alike. Then we put forward our treaty rights and we quoted the Treaty of Paris. We quoted the Treaty of Paris as guaranteeing the protection of property, but it was said that the property in this case was the property of communities and not of persons, and drat, therefore, it did not come within the purview of the Treaty of Paris. There is a further answer on behalf of the French Government. They said that this establishment had been so long in France, and so long living under French laws, that it must be considered a French establishment and not English. Therefore they declined to listen to our appeal for treaty rights. Hon. Members will admit therefore that we did intervene. We presented a reasonable Memorandum, going at length into a claim which we thought could be set up. We did appeal to our treaty rights, and the reply was that as these English gentlemen lived in France they must be subject to French law, and the French Government went so far as so say that they could not stand up before their own public opinion to the length of saying that they were going to treat foreigners better than they treated their own citizens.
MR. JOHN REDMOND: I should In very glad if the noble Lord could say precisely whether the Memorandum was presented to the French Government in respect to compensation. I can quite understand the French Government resenting the Memorandum on the other point.
LORD CRANBORNE: The French Government claimed that the property this establishment occupied became sequestrated to the French Government, just in the same way as the property of the corresponding French Orders. Now let me consider a moment the property which has been sequestrated. We do not know precisely what it is they claim to have been deprived of.
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There is no doubt that under the French law the property actually occupied by these Orders is sequestrated, but the whole of the property of the Benedictines of Douai does not come within this category. There is, for example, the personal property of the Order; then there is a certain endowment. Probably the hon. and learned Gentleman knows that there is an endowment to the Benedictines of Douai invested; that there is a sort of Government trustee who has paid the money arising out of the endowment to the Order. I am not at all sure that that is sequestrated under the law. When we speak of sequestration, let us not be too sure that the whole of the property is gone. I think the Abbot and the Order would be well advised to exhaust their legal remedy in the French Courts in order to ascertain how far the expelling law carries the power of sequestration. If they then found that, after all, the law did not involve the sequestration of the whole of their property, and came to the British Government and said: "Our property is in France; it is not ail sequestrated under the law; we ask your intervention in order to secure us our rights," I can assure the hon. and learned Member that wherever and to whatever extent it can be shown that these gentlemen have been deprived, contrary to the law, of what belongs to them, we shall be not only willing but anxious to do all and everything in our power to assist them. Beyond that it is very difficult for the British Government to go. We can protest, and we have protested. We can represent the hardships with which these gentlemen have been treated, but we can hardly ask the French Government to accord to English-men treatment different from what they accord to their own citizens. I thoroughly sympathise with the point of view of the hon. and learned Member, but I do not see, other than the steps I have suggested, that there is anything more in the power of the Government that we can do.
MR. NORMANcongratulated the noble Lord on the change of tone he had adopted in this debate as compared with previous occasions. As a rule he had been too apt to take the criticisms of the Committee—to use a now historic phrase—"lying down," or at any rate,

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with great mildness, but this afternoon he had turned on his critics with marked determination, and had administered a severe, but not altogether unmerited, castigation upon his redoubtable adversary, the hon. member for King's Lynn. The noble Lord, however, had made one or two statements which were to be regretted, as they hardly represented the facts. The real reason why Lord Lansdowne did not accompany the King on his visit abroad was not the fact that his absence would have brought the whole machinery of international politics in this country to a standstill, as the noble Lord had alleged, but the fact that the King went abroad, not for the purpose of securing or helping to secure that class of definite understanding to which the presence of the Foreign Minister was necessary, but to convey, as only His Majesty himself could, the feelings of the people rather than the desires of the Government. If the Foreign Minister had accompanied the King the European Press would at once have been filled with all sorts of suppositions and mysterious arguments which would have entirely prevented the results which His Majesty's tact and personal accomplishments had secured. As to Germany and Venezuela, the noble Lord had made a statement of the most remarkable character. The alliance with Germany was, without exception, the greatest mistake in foreign politics made by this country for many years. Everybody in close touch with American opinion, official and non-official, knew that it nearly had the result of destroying all the good that was accomplished in the relations between this country and the United States at the time of and after the Spanish War. The noble Lord said that objection to this alliance was due to the attitude of Germany towards this country during the South African War. It was nothing of the kind. The German attitude was not alleged by any serious critic as a reason against co-operation between Great Britain and Germany. The real reason was that Venezuela lay closely within the sphere of influence of the United States, that we were in such relations with the United States that any dispute of that kind could be settled in the most friendly manner, and that there was not the slightest reason for dragging any foreign
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war as they became; still less was there any ground for allying ourselves with a Power whose objects in those territories were believed, rightly or wrongly, by the people of the United States to he antagonistic to their interests. As to the Baghdad Railway, the noble Lord had said he did not think public opinion in this country had exercised much influence on the result.
LORD CRANBORNEsaid he did not say that.
MR. NORMANsaid that was what he understood.
LORD CRANBORNEsaid that, on the contrary, what he stated was that, having regard to the delicacy of the financial operations involved, public opinion had great weight, and made it impossible for the Government to secure the terms which they considered essential before they could give their consent to the scheme.
MR. NORMANsaid the point he was about to make was that the convention or proposed arrangement between this mysterious group of financiers, their colleagues in Germany and the British Government, was in the possession of the British Government for a fortnight, and that during that fortnight the attitude of the Government towards the proposal was friendly. The terms were then published in The Times newspaper, and such was the effect on public opinion that the Government dropped the scheme like a hot potato.
LORD CRANBORNEsaid the hon. Member had fallen into the same error as almost every other critic. The terms published in The Times were not those which the Government were considering. No reasonable body would ever have dreamt of submitting such terms to the British Government; they would not have been looked at for a moment.
MR. NORMAN: Has the Government ever put forward that excuse before?
LORD CRANBORNE: Oh, yes!
MR. NORMAN: I have never seen it. Were not the terms substantially the same?
LORD CRANBORNE: No; not in the least.
MR. NORMANsaid the whole battle was fought out on the floor of the House and in the country on the basis of those terms.
LORD CRANBORNEsaid he was not responsible for that.
MR. NORMANsaid his point was that only when the approximate terms were finally known did the Government so promptly relinquish the scheme. As to the other matters which had been discussed, nobody who had studied the correspondence and listened to the debate could come to any other conclusion than that this matter of retaliation against Germany had been dragged to light to serve the convenience of those who desired to raise the question of our fiscal policy. On that point he had only one question to ask—viz., whether or not Italy had taken a similar step towards Canada, and, if so, whether the Government had taken any steps in the matter.
LORD CRANBORNEsaid he had not had his attention directed to the matter, but he thought he might safely deny anything of the sort.
Mr. NORMANthen reminded the Committee that in the course of the debate on the Address he called attention to the question of the Chinese indemnity, contending that the British Government were acting in a somewhat harsh manner towards the Chinese Government. Since then the Government had relaxed its attitude, and was now prepared to accept payment in silver up to a certain date, the deficit which accumulated in the meantime to be dealt with as might afterwards be arranged. That was a rather curious arrangement, because if it was not right that the Chinese should pay the whole in gold, there was no reason why they should pay in gold at all. The matter was of some importance, because France and Russia were taking somewhat active steps in the matter of the payment, even going so far as to
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threaten the re-occupation of portions of Chinese territory. Already the Commission of Bankers sitting in Shanghai had fixed an arbitrary rate of exchange for the tael, which would impose a loss of something like £40,000 on the Chinese. Under these circumstances he desired to know what kind of protest, if any, the Government had made, and in what way they proposed to follow up the protest. The matter was a somewhat serious one, and they desired to know exactly what was the attitude of His Majesty's Government. During the debate on the Address, he had raised the question of the pending commercial treaty with China, and had ventured to assert that it would not come into operation. The noble Lord was not then able to agree with what lie then said. On the contrary, the noble Lord anticipated its immediate success, and proudly accepted the congratulations of the hon. Member for the Epsom division. Considerable time had now elapsed, the treaty was no nearer acceptance, and perhaps the noble Lord would be able to tell them what stage precisely they had got to as regarded this treaty and the American treaty. There was also the question of Manchuria, which was most serious of all. The facts were simple. Russia agreed to evacuate by a certain date, but she did not do so; on the contrary, all the time she made new demands, whilst some of her representatives actually denied that those demands were being made. Russia was still detaining the revenues of one of the treaty ports which, by the very treaty she bad signed, ought to belong equally to the Powers as part of the guarantee for the indemnity. All sorts of preferential arrangements on behalf of Russia were being made, or attempted to be made, with the Chinese Government. He was all for an understanding with the Russian Government, but the only way to have an understanding with Russia was to meet her perfectly frankly and plainly face to face upon these questions as they arose. Russia had behaved in a way which could not command the approval of anyone. The method of her diplomacy could only be met by a firm attitude on the part of the British Government, and by that attitude alone could they arrive at a satisfactory understanding. The question was far more serious in regard to Japan, and the occupation of Manchuria by Russia.

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They had seen a great many alarming statements on this question in the newspapers. They had heard that Japan had been preparing for war, and that an ultimatum was about to be launched. The situation was most serious, as under the Japanese Treaty this country might be dragged into the field of conflict in the Far East. This was a danger arising out of the Japanese Treaty, which some of them pointed out in the debate on the adjournment of the House when the Agreement was first signed. If the noble Lord could say anything to allay their natural anxiety on this question, he was sure it would be a very great relief, not only to themselves, but to other nations.
LORD EDMUND TALBOTsaid he simply wished to state his hearty concurrence in every word which had fallen from the hon. and learned Member opposite, in regard to the treatment of the Benedictine monks, and he also recognised fully the sympathetic tone of the noble Lord upon this question. He took the noble Lord's reply Majesty's mean that in the opinion of His Majesty's Government, this question was not yet settled, and they were willing to carry on negotiations and assist these people in obtaining compensation for the property they had lost. He wished to know whether the correspondence upon this subject between the British Government and the French Government would be laid upon the Table of the House.
Mr. JOSEPH WALTONsaid he had listened with much disappointment to the reply of the noble Lord in regard to the British subjects in France who had suffered the confiscation of their property by the French Government. He had had conveyed to him certain information in regard to this matter, which he believed to be perfectly reliable, and he only regretted that in this case they had had such an example of the impotence of His Majesty's Government to protect the interests and rights of property of British subjects. He trusted His Majesty's Government would get a little more backbone put into the conduct of all negotiations in regard to foreign policy. He felt that there had been a lamentable want of backbone in the whole foreign policy of this country for years past, and he regard the statement made by the noble Lord as an
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indication of the extreme feebleness and weakness of the action taken by the Foreign Office. He welcomed the cordial relations which had been recently developed between England and France, but he would venture to suggest that the question of the confiscation of the property of the Benedictine monks in France should be referred to the Hague tribunal for arbitration and settlement. It seemed to him to be eminently a case which might suitably be referred to this particular tribunal, and it would be a most encouraging thing in the interests of humanity and civilisation and the peace of the world if disputes of this kind could oftener be referred to that tribunal for settlement. With regard to foreign affairs, ever since he had the honour of becoming a Mender of the House of Commons he hail given his attention mainly to the question of promoting British commercial interests, and personally he welcomed the awakened interest on the part of the whole nation which had recently taken place in the most important questions of the trade and commerce of the Empire. They had had an interesting discussion that day upon the question of preferential tariffs and the question of retaliation on the part of foreign nations. Reference had been made to the last commercial treaty concluded by the Foreign Office with Persia. This treaty was finally concluded on the 3rd of February last, but if the treaty was being negotiated at the present time he was pretty certain His Majesty's Government would have taken care not only to have some verbal assurance from the Government of Persia, but they would insist upon a clause being actually inserted in the treaty setting forth that this country should be at liberty if it thought fit to adopt a system of preferential tariffs within the British Empire without violating the most-favoured-nation clause. He observed that amongst those who negotiated the treaty on the part of his Majesty the Shah were the Persian Prime Minister as well as the Administrator General of Customs. Were His Majesty's Government absolutely certain that the latter had full authority as the plenipotentiary of the Persian Government to sign this treaty?
LORD CRANBORNE: The hon. Member is in error. It was only by a mistake that the treaty was issued to the

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House in that form. The Persian plenipotentiary signed the Persian text. This ought to have been mentioned in the Paper, but as a matter of fact both plenipotentiaries signed the treaty.
Mr. JOSEPH WALTONsaid he was glad to hear that statement, because it confirmed that he was drawing attention to a point which appeared on the face of it incorrect, and which might have rendered the treaty invalid, or they might have claimed at some future time that it was not binding. This commercial treaty was better than none at all,but it was bad at the best. This treaty was gladly entered into by Russia, but it was highly unsatisfactory to us as a great commercial nation that the terms and tariffs embodied hi this treaty should not have been a tariff arrangement between this Government and the Shah of Persia.
And, it being half-past Seven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
Committee report Progress; to sit again tins evening

EVENING SITTING.
SUPPLY [19th ALLOTTED DAY].
Considered in Committee:—
(In the Committee.)
[Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith), in the Chair.

CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTNIENTS ESTIMATES, 1903–4.

  CLASS II.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum not exceeding £34,887, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1904, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of His Majesty's Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs."
  Whereupon Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Item A (Salaries, Wages and Allowances) be reduced by £100, in respect of the Salary of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs."—(Sir Charles Dike.)
  MR. JOSEPH WALTON,continuing his speech, said he was referring, when the sitting was suspended, to the commercial treaty recently concluded between this country and Persia. The old original treaty which this one erased was the treaty of 1828, and under that treaty an ad valorem duty of 5 per cent. was levied on all merchandise from this country entering into Persia. The new treaty was better than no treaty at all, but it had this serious disadvantage, that in the place of 5 per cent. ad valorem duty all round, the new treaty as concluded by Russia with Persia provided for levying less than 5 per cent.ad valorem on certain commodities chiefly sent by Russia to Persia, while on commodities chiefly sent by the British Empire to Persia the duty now to be levied was greatly in excess of 5 per cent., and in the case of tea had been increased from 5 per cent. to 100 per cent. The new commercial treaty concluded by the Government was not one from which the commercial community of Great Britain hoped to derive much satisfaction. He recognised the difficult position in which the Government was placed with regard to this matter, but it was to be regretted that the treaty now entered into, which might he eminently satisfactory to Russia and which might remain in force for many years to come, should be one in which the favoured-nation clause, though strictly speaking was not violated, was in fact violated in-so-far that Russian commodities sent to Persia obtained a lower rate than the 5 per cent. previously imposed, while British commodities in the future would have to pay more than they did under the treaty of Turkoman Chai. It had always been declared by both the Russian and British Governments in regard to Persia, that their policy was directed to upholding the independence and integrity of Persia. What he desired to know was whether the Government had addressed any communications to the Russian Government in regard to what he was bound to consider a violation of the repeated declarations of Russia as to this policy in so far as they were involved by debarring Persia from giving concessions to construct railways to any other Power until the year 1910, and in also debarring Persia from the right to borrow money from any Power except themselves. Those two

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  conditions, which they had imposed upon Persia, in his opinion violated the independence of Persia.
  Then he desired to know from the Government whether they had exercised vigilance, and would continue to exercise vigilance, to prevent the Customs receipts of the Persian Gulf Ports and the Province of Faro being allocated in satisfaction of any future loans which Persia might contract with Russia in addition to the £3,500,000 loan already concluded. Then an important point, so far as the British commercial interest in Persia was concerned, was the question of the improvement of the trade routes from the Persian Gulf into the interior of Russia. They knew that the Russians had constructed three commercial highways down into North Persia in order to facilitate their trade and strengthen their political influence in North Persia. He desired no aggressive action on the part of the Government, but he submitted that in the interests of British trade, and especially in the interests of Indian trade with Persia, it was important that the Karun River trade route should be improved; that we should also construct a road to facilitate our commerce from Thunder Abbas through Kerman, and Yezd to Isfahan. Then he wished to know whether the difficulties that were thrown in the way of carrying on trade between India and Persia, by the Quetta-Nushki trade route had been overcome, and whether our Indian fellow subjects were now able to trade freely by that route with Eastern Persia. There were three other routes, and he was glad to learn that some progress was being made in regard to the construction of a road from Kum to Isfahan with a branch through Sultanabad, Diszful, and Shuster. That was a road for which a concession had been obtained by the British Imperial Bank of Persia, and which had recently been taken over by a syndicate. What he wished to know was, whether the Government, either on their own account, or in conjunction with the Government of India, were prepared to give all possible backing to the concessionaires of these highways by subsidies, or in other ways, in order that British trade in Southern Persia at any rate might have the same facilities for its increase as the Russians had already given to Russian commerce by the
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  construction of their three commercial highways from the North into Northern Persia.
  In view of the declaration of the Government in regard to the matter of railway concessions in Persia, they were informed that the British had a right to build railways in Southern Persia when Russia built railways in Northern Persia, but that right rested on a very shadowy foundation, a mere verbal assurance given and repeated, and he submitted it was desirable in connection with any agreement entered into for road concessions that there should be a definite recognition of the fact that the British should enjoy a priority of right to construct railways when required over the trade routes cow; red by these proposed roads. The question of Persia was a fascinating one. It was not so much a question of the volume of trade of the British Empire with Persia, it was because of the proximity of the Persian Empire to our great Indian Empire that the question of maintenance of British influence, especially in Southern Persia, was of such vital importance. We were spending millions of money in the North-West of India with a view to protect the Empire from a possible invasion by Russia, but if by neglecting and by not pursuing, not an aggressive, but a wise, definite, and firm policy of advancing British commercial and political interests in Southern Persia just as Russia had done, and was doing, in Northern Persia, they might avert the possible danger of Russian influence and Russian predominance extending from Northern to Southern Persia, it was the duty of the Government to do so. If Russia gradually succeeded in her demands in Southern as well as Northern Persia, she might eventually be established with a commercial port connected by railways through Persia with the Russian Empire and eventually with a naval base in the Persian Gulf. If the Government did not uphold the British position in Southern Persia it might ultimately result in Russia turning the flank of our mountainous North-West frontier of India and threatening India through Baluchistan and by sea. If that happened the whole teeming millions of India would have the burden thrown upon

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  them of finding out of their poverty many millions more for increasing the defensive forces of the Indian Empire. We had taken upon ourselves the responsibility of guiding the destinies of 250,000,000 of people in India, and it was our bounden duty to protect that Empire from any danger such as he had described from the adjacent country of Persia, whose independence and integrity we had declared it to he our policy to preserve. We had no aggressive designs on Persia, we adhered to our policy with regard to Persia, but what had been felt for years past was that the Government had been supine. They were looking now for a well-considered definite policy to be resolutely pursued, but he was bound to state across the floor of the House that they had not made much advance with regard to this question of insisting that British interests were paramount in the Persian Gulf and must be maintained. He was free to admit that in regard to Persia generally the Government had within the last year or two taken a stronger line for the promotion of British interests. He hoped to-night they would have a still stronger assurance from the noble Lord that the question of British interests in Persia vitally affected the safety of the future of our Indian Empire.
  Turning to China there were several questions affecting British interests which at present appeared to be in a pressing and critical condition. First of all there was the question of the evacuation of Manchuria. He would not go back to ancient history; he would merely say the noble Lord and his predecessor had given in this House Russian assurance after Russian assurance that Russia had not the slightest intention of remaining in Manchuria, but that when peace was restored in China they would reconvey Manchuria absolutely as it existed before the crisis to Chinese jurisdiction and control. When peace was declared in China Russia received under the peace protocol no less than £17,000,000 sterling as compensation in connection with the Chinese rising, and on her part agreed to evacuate Manchuria; that on the 8th of April last she would have evacuated one section, including the treaty port of Niuchwang, but instead of doing so on the 18th of April last she presented fresh demands to the Chinese Government. Of course it was strictly
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  denied by Russia that any such demands had been made, but unfortunately her agent, M. Plancon, handed to Mr. Conger, the United States Minister, his own copy of the demands which had been made on China, including demands absolutely antagonistic to the interests of this country. Russia demanded that China should not open any additional treaty ports in Manchuria; she demanded, with regard to Mongolia, which was very far from Manchuria, that it should not have its administration altered without the consent of Russia; she demanded that the Russo-Chinese Bank should be made the Customs Bank of Manchuria, and that all Customs receipts should lie paid into it. The new Russian diplomatist, Count Lamsdorf, informed Mr. Hay that Russia had no intention of excluding other countries or to confer exclusive advantages on Russia. He told him that the United States might be sure that nothing would be done to close the doors now open. Fie protested also, or rather Count Beckendorf protested also, to Lord Lans downe that the measures to exclude foreign consuls were far from entering into the intentions of the Imperial Government; and to Mr. Hay they said that American commerce and American capital were the two things they most desired to attract. When the matter was raised in this House they had an assurance given to them, which he would not detain the Committee by repeating, by the noble Lord, and a further statement made in; another place by Lord Lansdowne, who said—
  "I have received from the Russian Ambassador, to whom I had addressed an inquiry on the subject, a verbal statement o the following effect: 'The information which has reached the British Government as to the conditions required for the evacuation of Manchuria is not at all correct. The discussions which are proceeding at Pekin concern Manchuria alone, and have reference to certain guarantees which are indispensable for securing the nest important Russian interest in the province after the withdrawal of the Russian troops. As for measures which might tend to exclude foreign consuls, or obstructing foreign commerce and the use of ports, such measures are far from entering into the intention of the Imperial Government. I consider, on the contrary, that the development of foreign commerce is one the main objects to which the Russian Government have undertaken the construction of the line of railway in that part of the world."
  That was a most satisfactory assurance, and was given on the 2nd of May last. Yet to-night, on the 23rd of July, so far

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  as they knew, no step had been taken to carry into effect the assurances which were then, in the most, emphatic way, given by Russia. They knew now that the United States had been putting considerable pressure Russia, not on the Chinese Government, for they recognised that it was useless to negotiate with the Chinese Government in regard to this matter. They wisely turned their attention to the Government at St. Petersburg, and had been negotiating with them as to the maintenance of the open door in the great country of Manchuria, and as to the free right of other nations to arrange with the Chinese Government to open further treaty ports in that country. It was said a few days ago that these negotiations had terminated successfully, and that two new treaty ports, Ta-tung-kau and Mukden, would he opened without objection on the part of the Russian Government. Unfortunately, they learnt to-day from the papers that that had not yet been agreed to, and that serious difficulties had again arisen. He desired to have from the noble Lord to-night whatever information he could give as to the exact position of the negotiations.
  But there was not only the fact of the action of Russia in Manchuria, and the opening of treaty ports in Manchuria, there was the question of the action of Russia in regard to the treaty port of Ninchwang, which was the only treaty port in that great country of Manchuria at present. The trade of that port had doubled in the last four years, and it was a port through which the British Empire did a trade of no less than three millions sterling a year. He wished to know from the noble Lord, in view of the repeated assurances conveyed to the House from the Russian Government with regard to to the restoration of Niuchwang, whether anything definite had been arranged to give effect to those assurances. It appeared to him that it had been found to be necessary by the United States Government, as it would be found to be necessary for His Majesty's Government, to negotiate direct with the Government of St. Petersburg on questions of this kind. The Government policy had been declared again and again as being a policy of the maintenance of the open door throughout the Chinese Empire, and
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  question now was, were they going resolutely to adhere to that policy, and not merely make representations to the Chinese Government, who had not the power to give effect to any arrangement they might make with His Majesty's Government, but that they should rather communicate with the Russian Government at St. Petersburg, in concert, he hoped, with the Japanese and United States Governments. The time had come to face the question of Manchuria and Niuchwang, and to induce Russia to come to an equitable arrangement with regard to Manchuria and the port of Niuchwang, which should be restored fully to the trade of all nations. There was one very important point. Since August, 1900, the Russians had been in possession of the Customs House at Niuchwang, and had collected nearly half a million of money in Customs receipts. That money had been paid into the Russo-Chinese Bank. It was paid into the credit of the Imperial Customs, no doubt, but it was not handed over to the Treasury of the Imperial Customs of China. Yet this money was part of the security for British bondholders who had advanced money to China. He did not think the Government could possibly allow the matter to test in its present position. Then, again, we had a British quarantine officer at Niuchwang, a Dr. Daly. He had been superseded and a Russian doctor put in his place. That was his pointed out, with regard to the port of Niuchwang, that the trade of Russia was practically nil; the whole trade was done by Japan and England, and United States of America. In addition to Dr. Daly being superseded, the British collector of Customs had also been superseded in favour of a Russia collector of Customs. He had a right, under the circumstances, to call the attention of the Government to this matter, and to suggest that they were not rightfully upholding the interests of the British trade, in allowing Russians to remain officials of the treaty port of Niuchwang. The question of British trade in China was one of the most important questions commercially that this country had to consider.
  They had heard a great deal about the decay of British trade. He would venture to point out that in China we had a great neutral market without any hostile

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  tariff against us whatever—a country inhabited by 400,000,000 people, and if His Majesty's Government, in the course of their inquiry, would give a little attention to the causes of the decline of British trade in that market, and to the consideration of how they could arrest the decline and give us an increasing trade, he thought it would be infinitely more profitable to this country than the giving of so much attention, as they appeared to be doing, to the cultivation of an increase of our trade with 10,000,000 people in highly protectionist colonies. In the great neutral market of China there were possibilities of trade expansion infinitely greater than in the smaller sphere the Government had now under their special purview. China was only doing a seventh part, in proportion to population, of what Japan was doing. He attributed the decline of British trade in China to the Vacillation of His Majesty's Government during recent years—to the fact that they had made a succession of humiliating surrenders of British commercial interests in the Far East. Between 1896 and 1901 Chinese foreign trade had increased £9,000,000 sterling a year, but the trade of the United Kingdom with China had gone down 15 per cent. The Committee, therefore, would see that there was a serious decline in British trade. Those statistics excluded railway material, which was admitted free of duty, and railway material, as the Committee well knew, had been pouring into China from Belgium, Russia, France and German v within the last few years, but not from this country, because of the failure on the part of our Government to secure a fair share of railway concessions for British subjects. [An HON. MEMBER: What about prices?] The prices were very much the same, and therefore the quantity would be practically the same for the purpose of his comparison when he said that our trade with China had declined 15 per cent. since 1896. The actual diminution of trade between the British Empire and China was 5 per cent., so that it was specially in the trade of the United Kingdom there was this substantial fall. Our shipping trade with China had also gone down. In 1896 we had 65 per cent., and in 1901 only 54 per cent. of the shipping, whereas
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  the German shipping had advanced from 6 per cent. In 1896 to 16 per cent. in 1901, and Japanese shipping had advanced from 2 per cent. in 1896 to 11 per cent. in 1901. The question of our commerce in China was one of the most important that a manufacturing country like this could possibly have to consider. He desired to know whether the noble Lord could give the Committee any information as to whether the commercial treaty, in regard to which a preliminary agreement was come to, had yet been carried into effect. The new commercial treaty was not entirely satisfactory, for he saw that in the negotiations between China and the United States of America certain further concessions had been made. For instance, in the preliminary treaty concluded by His Majesty's Government the Chinese native Customs were to be continued. He wished to know whether an arrangement of a more favourable character had been come to under which only the native Customs at the ports of entry and the land frontages of China were to be continued and the other native Customhouses were to be abolished. This questions was of vital importance in connection with the new commercial treaty with china. In addition to that there was the question of whether certain works of river improvement, the river leading to Tien-tsin, which were provided for in the protocol of 1901. He desired to know whether any steps had been taken for the conservancy of those waterways and the removal of obstructions to navigations on the Cantonese waterways. The carrying of these arrangements into effect must be highly beneficial to British trade.
  On the question of railway concessions in China the noble Lord told them this afternoon that he could not enter into details. As a commercial man, speaking on behalf of the commercial community of this country, he said that our position in regard to railway construction in China at the present moment was most unsatisfactory. They were told in this House that British concessionaires had secured concessions for 2,800 miles of railways in China.

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  Though he was glad to know that recently the final concession of a railway from Shanghai to Nankin had been ratified, so far as he knew no other British concession had yet been finally ratified. What did that mean at the present moment? They were told the commercial condition of this country was very serious—that the iron and steel trades were depress d, and that Americans and Germans were dumping down their surplus produce in this country and killing our iron and steel industries. On the other hand, there was China, the richest Empire in the world, being supplied for the first time with a system of railways, and although there were no hostile tariffs against us in that Empire, Russians, French, Germans, Belgians, and Americans were busily engaged laying down these railways. The whole of the rail material and the rolling stock for these railways must be drawn from the countries of the respective concessionaires, and he wished to draw the attention of the Committee to the gross violation of the most-favoured-nation clause, which resulted in the exclusion of British manufacturers from supplying materials. He asked the noble Lord whether this important point had had the attention of the Government, and whether there had not been opportunities for trade sacrificed by the supineness of the Government. It would be, as he had said, infinitely better for our Government to turn their attention to an inquiry into the causes of this condition of things in regard to our trade with the great neutral market of China if they wished to bring real prosperity and a substantial increase of trade to this great manufacturing nation. This matter had been drifting and drifting, and seemed to be making no progress.
  He wished to know, also, whether the Government were giving proper diligence to the development of our trade relations with the Indian Empire, which had a population of 300,000,000, and had no hostile tariffs against us. Were the Government determined to direct their earnest attention to the recovery of lost ground in China, to resolutely uphold our treaty rights and commercial interests, and to maintain the open door through that great Empire? Foreign nations were constructing railways in China, and
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  he had pressed again and again in this House that His Majesty's Government ought to seek to secure an international agreement under which all nations would enjoy the same railway rates over the whole of the railways there. He had never yet been able to draw from the Government any definite reply as to whether this most important question was even receiving their consideration. He was glad the Government had wakened up to take some interest in British commerce, and he hoped that the proposals now before the country would prove to be a great blessing in disguise, and that out of the controversy which was now going on there would be developed keener attention on the part of the Government to the promoting of British commercial rights and interests in every part of the world.
  MR. MOONsaid he was in complete accordance with the hon. Member for Barnsley in regard to his historical sketch of the situation in China, but he disputed his view that it was the vacillating policy of the Government which had brought us into our present difficulties. So far as the Port Arthur incident was concerned, he agreed with the hon. Member, but apart from that deplorable incident he believed the present situation had been arrived at by causes which were almost inevitable. According to the telegrams in that day's Times, the latest information from New York appeared to be that the State Department at Washington relied on the assurance that two new Manchurian ports would be opened to trade. That would prevent, or, at all events, retard the speedy "Russification" of China. If up at the centrally-situated town of Mukden a port was opened, the outside world would, at all events, have some hold on the trade of Manchuria. He did not know why we should not ourselves take as firm a line as the United States Government had done. He thought that in taking measures to meet the Russian advance in Asia we must be on our guard at every point: we must meet Russia at the North-East and South-West. He agreed completely with the three points stated by the right hon. Baronet the Member for the Berwick Division in his speech that day. There should be no expansion of territory, we should

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  consolidate our frontiers, and preserve the open door. But he thought we must do something more than that. We must recognise in Asia as well as in Europe the principle of buffer States. Not only should we treat Afghanistan as a buffer State, but we should treat Persia as a buffer State, and also all those outlying dependencies which the Chinese called colonies, such as Eastern Turkestan, Mongolia, and Thibet. They read in the papers of all kinds of Russian expeditions, some scientific and some religious, to Thibet and Mongolia. We must do our best to help China to consolidate its rule over those parts of the world. During the past twelve months important events had happened in Persia. There had been two arrangements which, he supposed, were more or less accurately called commercial treaties. As far as he could make out, they took, place about the same time—namely, February this year. A treaty in regard to the Customs Tariff was made with Russia not a long time before they heard of the treaty made by ourselves with Persia, which in point of fact was only made available to hon. Members this week. The results of the ingenuity of the Russians in the way in which they had arranged their tariff were becoming apparent. It was only the day before yesterday that the Foreign Office issued a Paper containing a Report on the Trade of the Kerman consular district for the year 1902-03. His Majesty's Consul, Major P. Sykes, said—
  "On the other hand, a new tariff of imports and export duties has been introduced, the net result of which is to make articles such as tea, which is consumed by all but the very poorest classes, very expensive, the duty having been raised from 5 per cent. to 100 per cent., and it is feared that the effect of the new tariff on trade in South-East Persia will he most unfavourable."
  This was one of the instances in which British import was penalised in the most appalling manner. The disadvantage at which British piece goods were placed as compared with Russian piece goods was more apparent to those who had studied the subject than it seemed to be from the figures. Perhaps his noble friend would be able to put a different complexion on the matter, but he could not help thinking that we had been outwitted or overreached in this matter of commercial
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  treaties and commercial arrangements with Persia. He pointed out that the Treaty recently made between this country and Persia was in French and Persian, while that which was made in 1857 was in French and English. East of Suez English was used, and not French. If he remembered rightly, the Treaty of Shimonseki, made between Japan and China after the war, made its English text the official text. He could not but think that, in that part of the world where such details carried weight, it would be believed we were going down hill when the Treaty was not signed in our own language. He wished to say a few words about the Consular Service.
  THE CHAIRMAN: Order, Order; there is a special Vote for the Consular Service.
  MR. BRYCEsaid that before the noble Lord answered the long indictment brought forward by the hon. Member for Barnsley with such a wealth of knowledge, he desired to put two questions in regard to two widely separated topics. The first had been suggested by a very interesting report which had been submitted to Parliament on slavery and free labour in the East African Protectorate. He would not deal with the question of shivery, but would confine himself to one particular point of very considerable importance suggested by that report. The House would remember that some time ago it was suggested that native labour should be recruited in Nyassaland and the East African Protectorate, but not to the extent of more than 1,000.
  LORD CRANBORNE: To begin with.
  MR. BRYCEsaid that the House was to be informed before any more than 1,000 were recruited, and he hoped that that undertaking would be strictly adhered to. The Committee would remember that very serious representations had been made by the missionaries as to the danger of taking natives from that part of Africa and sending them to the Transvaal. The report he had referred to was very interesting, and gave a very lively idea of the social position of the tribes in East Africa, and was

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  worthy of that very able and distinguished public servant, Sir Charles Elliott, our resident at Zanzibar. The report was entirely unfavourable to the recruiting of native labour in these territories for the mines in South Africa.
  LORD CRANBORNE: No natives are recruited in East Africa. The arrangement which was made had reference to British Central Africa.
  MR. BRYCE: Are none going to be recruited from East Africa? My task will be shortened if the noble Lord can assure me of that.
  LORD CRANBORNE: "Never" is a long word, but there is co present intention of recruiting in East Africa.
  MR. BRYCEsaid he would take it from the answer of the noble Lord that co recruiting was going on in East Africa, and that no recruiting would be begun without ample notice. He would regard that as au undertaking by the noble Lord.
  LORD CRANBORNE: Very good.
  MR. BRYCEsaid that anyone who read the Report referred to would find that all the labour was wanted in that territory for itself, that it would be no benefit to the natives of East Africa to send them to the Transvaal, and that therefore the very strongest case would require to be made out before recruiting there was allowed. The other subject on which he desired to have some information was as to what was passing in the South-East of Europe, and what was the policy of the Government in relation thereto. Although this question had not been much before the House it was of very great importance. There were elements of danger it: South-East Europe which might at any time involve these countries ill still greater miseries than they suffered from at present, and which might take the dimensions of a European war. We had been very ignorant of what had been really going on in Macedonia, Bulgaria and Albania, the papers last presented not bringing the story down to the events of the last four or five months, and the information in the newspapers being scattered and contra-
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  dictory, and often obviously biassed and tinged by the sources from which it came, or through which it passed, so that little confidence could be put in it. The promise of Turkish reforms, which has been so promptly accepted by Russia, and Austria, were dead before they were born. No-serious attempt had been made to put them in force, and they never would be put in force. Indeed, there had been such a carnival of bloodshed and strife throughout these countries during the last four or five months, that it would be impossible to apply any reforms whatever. Through the darkness of these intermittent conflicts and bloodshed there had been a possibility of a general massacre of the Christian population by the Turkish troops, and more than once the possibility of a war between Turkey and Bulgaria had been threatened. The danger of the invasion of Bulgaria by Turkey seemed to have passed away, and. he hoped that it would not again arise. He was told that the disorders in these countries would likely recommence after the harvest was gathered, or at any rate in the spring. Some active steps would have to be taken on the part of Europe to bring about a solution of this-serious question in the South-East of Europe. As the Committee knew, the policy of Austria and Russia, in accord, had been directed to secure the maintenance of the status quo, together with an amelioration of the condition of the people in the Turkish provinces. It might be said that the interest of Great Britain in those regions was a very secondary consideration. No doubt that was so when compared with the interest of Russia and Austria. But it was a real interest all the same. It was a commercial interest. These countries were once rich and prosperous, with a large trade, and they might become so again with absolute peace and good government. Besides that, we had the interest which belonged to us in common with the other Great Powers in the final settlement of the political control in these regions, and of the Dardanelles; and we had taken a special responsibility by the Treaty of Berlin. The 26th Article of the Treaty of Berlin expressly provided for the introduction of reforms in Macedonia. A scheme of these reforms was drawn up at that time by the

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  representative of this country, but from that day to this no step had been taken to carry out that scheme. That imposed a duty on this country which we could not ignore. When we refused to accept the Treaty of San Stefano, and participated in that of Berlin, we undertook a serious responsibility to these countries, and their present terrible condition was due to the fact that the Powers hail never put in force the Treaty of Berlin. It was quite clear that a case might arise in the near future in which the interest of Great Britain might become a very important factor. Suppose there was a question of endeavouring to prevent the Sultan of Turkey from declaring war against Bilgaria, and to induce him to really carry out reforms, the influence of Great Britain and France as disinterested Powers ought to be very great. He was sure the Committee would like to be told that His Majesty's Government would exert all the pressure they could to induce the Sultan to maintain the peace and introduce whatever reforms were possible. It had been suggested that Bulgaria should absorb Macedonia, and it had also been suggested that. Macedonia should be created into an autonomous State. One or other of these possible solutions of the question might become practical shortly, and they would like to know the position which the Government would take in the matter, and the part which they would play in brining about a permanent settlement These were questions which did not become easier as time pressed. Nothing was to be gained by letting them hang over as had been done in the past twenty years. Happily, Russia and Austria seemed to be in accord, and if England and France could induce these two Powers to tiring pressure on the Sultan, and give Macedonia a chance of peace and prosperity, no better use of British influence could be imagined The questions, therefore, that he desired to ask were: When were they to have any papers relating to the state of affairs in Macedonia, and what was the view Government took of the present condition of things in Macedonia and what their hopes were as to peace being preserved between Turkey and Bulgaria?
  LORD CRANBORNEsaid that the right hon. Gentleman had asked whether the Government proposed to lay further Papers before the House in respect of the
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  Macedonian question. He had thought that they had already laid a very large assortment of Papers before Parliament; but if the right hon. Gentleman believed that there was anything new that the Government could communicate to the House, he need not say that he should make it his business to prepare another Blue-book. [MR. BRYCE said that the last Blue-book only brought down information to February or March.] One of the characteristics of the politics of Southern Europe was a melancholy monotony. There was really nothing specially fresh on the Macedonian question. He was asked what prospect there was in respect of reforms. He had a note from one of our Consuls in Macedonia winch stated that the Moslems no longer maintained the rather insolent demeanour which they used to have towards Bulgarians and other Christians, and a large number of the more refractory among them had been exiled. A Norwegian and a Swedish officer had arrived in order to instruct the gendarmes. That was one of the Russian schemes of reform. The right hon. Gentleman might say that that information did not carry us very much farther. The political situation was certainly very bad, but in some respects it was improving. The other day there was a change in the Bulgarian Government, and the new Government adopted the policy of trying to bring about a solution of the difficulties by amicable relations with the Porte. He did not think that these negotiations came to very much. There was some unfortunate frontier incidents. It was said that the Turks were massing troops on the Bulgarian frontier, and the Bulgarian Government were very much concerned, and informed the Powers of the obligation they were placed under to increase their provision for defence. He thought the reports were very much exaggerated. In consequence mainly of strong representations by Austria and Russia to the Porte, the Turkish Government gave orders that the troops at the particular places on the frontier should be withdrawn. But still the difficulty undoubtedly remained. There was a very large force of Turkish troops under arms, and although the regulars were well controlled, there was no doubt that the presence of large bodies of armed men, irregulars, constituted a very menacing fact which could not be ignored. On the other hand there was no doubt that the

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  Revolutionary Association had not abandoned their propaganda, and that the Mohammedan population had been infuriated by the methods which the revolutionary bands had adopted. These methods restrained all sympathy which Europe might otherwise have given them. Dynamite, murder, outrage, were methods of achieving their emancipation, with which civilized Europe could have no sympathy.
  MR. BRYCE: What is to he said about the unhappy people who are not concerned with the revolutionary band?
  LORD CRANBORNEsaid he agreed that their case was very sad, but unfortunately we had to take things as we found them. He would be sorry if the Committee carried away the idea that the Government were doing nothing. To Austria and Russia belongs the principal duty of intervention, and as the right hon. Gentleman had very properly said, although we had a real interest, it was a secondary interest. The right hon. Gentleman had quoted the Treaty of Berlin, but he ventured to remind him that the logical obligations which that Treaty involved were not only on Great Britain but on the other Powers as well. We could not consent to discharge our obligations under that Treaty apart from the co-signatory allies. There was nothing more to be regretted than the suspicion which seemed to grow up among the Turks that England was not their friend. England was the friend of Turkey in the best sense of the word. They had never scrupled to tell them how they had succeeded, and were succeeding more every day, in estranging all possible sympathy, and they had urged them again and again to try and recognise how the sands were running out and how the policy they were pursuing must end disastrously. They could do no more.
  The hon. Member for Barnsley had asked him a large number of questions in regard to Persia and China. He could assure the hon. Gentleman that they were not neglecting British interests in Persia. They fully recognised that the Russian quarantine cordon on the Afghan border was a matter, interfering as it did wit h British trade from India, of which they had
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  every right to complain, and they had not neglected making representations in the proper quarter in order to have that grievance abated. He did not think the hon. Gentleman need conclude so confidently that the Persian Government were rigidly bound in the matter of their finance not to borrow from any other country except Russia. He would urge him to take a more cheerful view of the situation, and not always to dwell on the minor key. He hoped the next time the hon. Gentleman went to Persia, which he supposed would be pretty soon, he would find that the position of this country was not only not bad, but that it was really gaining ground every day. As to the Persian Treaty, according to precedent the Persian plenipotentiary signed the text he understood, not the text he did not understand. The reason why it was written in French was because it was more expeditious and convenient. Monsieur Nans was more at home in the French language, and Sir Arthur Hardinge, who was an accomplished linguist, was perfectly at home in it; and, therefore, it was agreed that the text should be in French. He found that an important convention between Great Britain and Russia in 1885, a protocol between Great Britain and Austria in 1881, and a convention between Great Britain and Portugal in 1885 were all in French; and therefore the Committee would see that the Government did not involve themselves in any great revolution in having the text of the Persian treaty in French. He thought hon. Gentlemen would agree that the Treaty was a great improvement on that that went before it. It reflected no small credit on Sir Arthur Hardinge, and showed that there was sufficient British influence at Teheran to induce the Persian Government to sign the Treaty which he had the honour of submitting to Parliament. Undoubtedly in respect of tea there was a great enhancement of the 'duty, but he had never heard that that would have any differential effect. He did not think the raising of the duty would place them in a worse position in regard to any competitors in the matter of tea than they were before. The idea, too, that British cotton piece goods were in any way

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  placed at a disadvantage in consequence of the Russian Treaty was a mistake. He could assure the Committee that for the future there would be no possibility of duties being raised to the disadvantage of this country without our consent. That was a matter of no small credit to the Government, and more particularly to Sir Arthur Hardinge, who carried it out with conspicuous success. With regard to China, the figures which he possessed did not bear out the view that our trade with China was in a bad state. The volume of trade between Great Britain, the British possessions, the British colonies, and China was enhanced by over a million between 1901 and 1902. British trade was two-thirds of the whole of the trade with China, and was increasing. He did not wish to deceive the Committee. He frankly admitted that the figures he had given included returns from Hong-Kong, and that it was possible that certain deductions would have to be made. There was no reason for thinking that we had been worsted in competition in regard to railways in China. The Northern Railway of China was perhaps the most important line in the whole Empire, and was entirely in British hands. They had also made it perfectly clear within the last few months that they had the right to make the branches of the line when they were required. There was no reason to suppose that Great Britain would not be able to secure their full share of the railway development in the Yang-tsze region.
  SIR CHARLES DILKEasked whether it was correct that they were unable to secure the only railway which they seemed to care about, which was the line opposite Nanking.
  LORD CRANBORNEsaid the negotiations were proceeding. He should not say they were unable to secure the line. With regard to the Chinese indemnity, the British Government had always maintained that it was a gold debt, but owing to the fall in the value of silver, the Chinese Government were placed in a difficulty, and the British Government had allowed them to postpone the pay-
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  ment of the full gold value of the debt for ten years. They were willing to receive it as if it were a silver debt for ten years, after which, of course, there would be certain arrears to be paid. The Government fully recognised what was of importance to this country in Manchuria. On the other hand, they fully realised the special position which Russia had acquired. He thought the Russian Government knew perfectly well that we should he delighted to come to an agreement, but there were considerable difficulties. The right hon. Baronet described Russia as a glacier, and he thought the right hon. Gentleman would admit that there was considerable difficulty in; negotiating with a glacier. The truth was he was driven to doubt whether the Russian Government was as homogeneous as à priori one would expect a despotism to be. On the contrary, there seemed to be at least two Parties in the Russian Government with whom they had to deal. The first requisite was that there should be willingness on the part of the Russian Government to make an agreement with us; and the second was that we should clearly understand what the Russian Government wanted. They had never been able to understand that. Some time there was a fitful glimmer of light, but it had been of a wholly illusory nature. They had never received from the Russian Government an intimation of what they would expect, and of what they thought the British Government could reasonably lie asked to assent to. Undoubtedly the result had been that Manchuria had not been evacuated yet. He did not deny that that was a very unsatisfactory situation, and he thought our ally, the Empire of Japan, was undoubtedly uneasy at the prolongation of that occupation. The United States Government, too, were anxious for some kind of settlement in Manchuria, their interests being mainly commercial. For Japan the principal question was the position of their interests in Korea. For this country and the United States it was the maintenance of our treaty rights, and particularly of the open door. There certainly were the elements out of which an agreement ought to be possible, and he could assure the Committee that, if the Russian Government was prepared to give due weight to our undoubted treaty rights and commercial interests, they

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  would not find us intransigeant in the matter. As to the position of the Customs revenue at Niuchwang, it was paid into the Russian Bank to the credit of the Imperial Maritime Customs, and as long as the Russians remained in occupation at Niuchwang, that did appear to be an unreasonable arrangement. They had no reason to suppose that when the Imperial Maritime Customs entered into their inheritance they would not find the full account of the money.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE (Carnarvon Burgles)said he should like to ask a few questions about Somaliland. He should like to know what had become of the Mullah. The last thee had heard of him was that the Government had got him out of Mugdug; and the other day it was announced that they had captured his mother-in-law. Instead of being called the Somaliland Relief Expedition it should be called the Mullah Relief Expedition. He wished to know what the Government now proposed to do. They had a great faculty for blundering; but they of they never profited by those blunders. He saw telegrams appearing in the papers to the effect that the Mullah's forces were dispersed, that his friends were deserting him, and that if another expedition were sent out, it would smash him up completely. These telegrams were manufactured on the spot by persons who were interested in having another expedition. He wished to ask whether the Government were about to send out another foolish expedition. The last expedition considerably increased the prestige and power of the Mullah. The Secretary of State for War stated that the force had been increased by 300 men. Doubtless, the right hon. Gentleman thought that was an enormous increase, equivalent to three of his Army Corps.
  THE CHAIRMAN: I do not think the hon. Gentleman would be entitled on this Vote to discuss the military arrangements in Somaliland. There is a special Vote for Somaliland, and the military operations are now undertaken by the War Office. The hon. Gentleman would, however, be entitled to raise any question as the policy.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid that that was his intention. The Foreign Office was responsible for the policy to be adopted; and what he wanted to know was whether the Foreign Office really meant to have another expedition into the desert or not; and whether they would be tempted by the information which was being sedulously disseminated with a view to during on the Foreign Office and other innocent Departments to another expedition. He observed that Abyssinia was disgusted with the British arrangements. The Abyssinian forces were to be met with at certain points, but the British forces did not turn up. He should like to know what arrangements in Abyssinia were; and whether. If any arrangements were made in Abyssinia and Italy, they were carried out. He saw it stated that the result of British action in Somaliland had been to foment disturbance in the Soudan, and to create a sort of feeling that the power of the British was not what it was. That showed the folly of the operations of the Foreign Office. He was certain that if a Liberal Government had blundered as egregiously and as often as the present Government had, it would have been denounced throughout the length and breadth of the land. The action of the Government was worse than anything that happened in connection with the Gordon business. With regard to the Persian Treaty the noble Lord stated that an assurance had been given that it did not refer to preferential treatment as between the colonies and the mother country. On the face of it, the treaty did not bear that interpretation. When did the noble Lord receive that assurance? Who gave it? Was it given verbally, or was it communicated in a document in the possession of the Foreign Office? If there was such a document, why was the House not placed in possession of it? With regard to the German Papers, he would call the attention of the Committee to the fact that all the Papers had not been laid before them. The Government had been asked for the documents showing the Canadian part of the negotiations, and the Colonial Secretary had replied that he was not aware of any such documents. As a mater of fact they were letters from the Canadian Government to the Foreign Office.
  LORD CRANBORNE: That is certainly not true, because the Canadian Government does not correspond with the Foreign Office. [A laugh.]
  Mr. LLOYD-GEORGE: That laugh is premature. I have the letter in my possession. It was communicated to the Foreign Office, and the Foreign Office communicated it to the German Government.
  LORD CRANBORNE: The hon. Gentleman said the letter was from the Canadian Government to the Foreign Office. I suppose the hon. Member means a letter to the Colonial Office communicated to the Foreign Office.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid that was a mere quibble. The letter was used by the Foreign Office and communicated to the German Government. It did not matter by what Department it was sent; it was used by the Foreign Office. It was a letter of the greatest importance. It was written on July 11, 1898, and communicated to the Foreign Office in the same month. It was important to know whether Canada had ever asked us to retaliate on Germany. Was there a single letter from Canada which made that request? Not one. All the letter he was referring to did was to ask the Foreign Office to make representations on the subject to Germany. The letter was written in July, and although it was of such importance that the Colonial Secretary based on it his proposal to reverse the fiscal policy of this country for sixty years, the Foreign Office took no notice of it till September 10—months after it was written. And they, the Foreign Office, simply enclosed a copy of the letter to our Ambassador and asked him to communicate the substance of it to the German Government and to ask for an explanation. The German Government gave their explanation and the Foreign Office practically accepted it. It further appeared from Papers presented to the Canadian Parliament that negotiations had been carried on, not merely by the Foreign Office, but between the Canadian Government and the German Foreign Office.
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  They had been carried on at Montreal. He wanted to know how it was that the documents which had been published in the Canadian Parliament had been withheld from this House. Those documents showed that Germany appealed to Canada, and said:
  "The treaty arrangements are coming to an end in 1903. Leave the matter till then. Then we will negotiate a fresh treaty with you."
  It was not a question of retaliation. It was a question of allowing existing treaties to run out and then entering into negotiations for a fresh treaty. That was an entirely different state of affairs to that which had been represented. The idea given to the country was that Germany was punishing Canada because Canada had given us a certain preference, and that we could stand it no longer. That was not the case at all, as the documents presented to the Canadian Parliament showed. It was treating the House and the country very unfairly not to produce the documents in which Canada herself pointed out the state of her trade with Germany. Germany was selling five times as much to Canada as she was buying from her. Germany took of the produce of Canada to the value of 1,300,000 dollars; Canada bought from Germany in 1902 nearly 11,000,000 dollars worth of goods. What need was there for protecting Canada in a ease of that kind 3 Canada had gut Germany entirely ill her own hands. If Germany chose to stop trade with Canada she would lose at least 9,000,000 dollars. When an important question of policy of this character was discussed, which might inconvenience the whole of British trade, it was not the way to prosecute an inquiry to conceal a part of the truth by not giving information most vital to the consideration of the matter. Canada could retaliate; this country could not. We profited by German trade when we took shipping into account. The suggestion was that we should take the quarrel in hand and throw over German trade, whereas Canada could retaliate with ten times the effect that we could produce. Canada had never asked us to retaliate. She had never asked us to do anything but make representations.

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  Finally, he wished to ask the noble Lord whether he was going to let Parliament see the documents which gave the assurance as to the interpretation of the Persian treaty, and whether they could see the Papers concerning the negotiations between Germany and Canada that had been given in Canada and had been withheld from this country.
  MR. REGINALD LUCAS (Ports-mouth)said he wished to obtain from the Government a statement of what they intended to do in regard to railway construction in the neighbourhood of the Persian Gulf. The position, as he understood it was this: We had long enjoyed, and still enjoyed, a dominant position in the Persian Gulf, but our position was not guaranteed to us. We had won it by prestige and kept it by prestige. The country was primitive in its methods, and sooner or later it must be developed, if not by ourselves, then by some other country. They knew the jealousy which existed in this in regard to any enterprise on the part of Germany. But if we do not undertake the development of this country around the Persian Gulf it would be done by somebody else. It was impossible for us to take up the position of a dog-in-the-manger. He believed it would be a very important matter that we should look well ahead so that the development of this country should be undertaken by us. If we do not take a long view we shall find ourselves in the position of trying to lock the door after the horse was stolen. He would like his noble friend to tell the House what view the Foreign Office took of the situation, and to suggest to the Committee that it was one which should not be overlooked.
  MR. EMMOTTsaid it was inevitable, natural, proper, and right that in a discussion on the Foreign Office Vote hon. Members should survey mankind from China to Peru, but he wanted to bring the debate back to the negotiations with Germany about Canada. When the Prime Minister was speaking that afternoon lie interrupted the right, hon. Gentleman by asking how long the Government had held their present opinions on that subject. He
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  wished to assure the right hon. Gentleman that he had not intended to be discourteous, for all of them held him in great respect and affection, and undoubtedly the Leader of the Opposition very felicitously described that feeling when on the previous night be called him Penfant gâte of the House of Commons. With regard to the main issues on fiscal policy the right hon. Gentleman had said he had formed no opinion at all. Clearly the Government had not realised the importance of this controversy between Germany and Canada for any length of time, for it had been shown that afternoon that the Colonial Secretary only last year described it as a minor matter of sentiment and a question of little practical importance. He stated that the Colonies had an effective remedy in their own hands. Had the fight with which they were now threatened been foreshadowed a year ago that would have been very fully discussed at the Colonial Conference. The Colonial Secretary on the 17th June spoke of the ingenuous ignorance of the right hon. Member for Berwickshire, who had asked if he knew of any hostile discrimination against the British colonies. The right hon. gentleman replied that he did know, and that the Government resented it. He did not object to the resentment, but he would like to lay stress on the fact that this so-called hostile discrimination was not new; it had existed since 1899, and the only difference since made was that Canada had levied a surtax on German food. Therefore the duty was rather against Germany, and not at all more against Canada than it was at that time. What did the Colonial Secretary say in 18991 Speaking at Leicester, on November 30th, he said—
  "There is something more tore which f think any far-seeing English statesman must have long desired, and that is that we should not remain permanently isolated on the Continent of Europe … It must have appeared evident to everybody that the natural alliance is between ourselves and the great German Empire. We have had, as I have said differences, but they have been about matters so petty as regards the merits of the particular case that they have not really formed occasion for anything like serious controversy. These differences have, under Lord Salisbury's wise administration of foreign affairs, been carefully removed, and at present I cannot conceive any point which may arise in the immediate

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  future which would bring ourselves and the Germans into antagonism of any kind."
  That speech was entirely inconsistent with the present attitude of the Colonial Secretary and the Government. The circumstances were practically the same; the only alteration was that Canada had put on this surtax. Not only was the hostile discrimination which then existed taken "lying down," but the Colonial Secretary fawned at the feet of those who were making the hostile discrimination, and begged for an alliance with them. He desired to make no attack on the Colonial Secretary, but certainly the right hon. Gentleman's treatment of this matter showed an incurable levity and changeability of purpose which were not worthy of the dignity of this nation. Four years ago he begged for an alliance; now we were to have an election cry of retaliation against foreign nations in general, but against Germany in particular. He protested against this question between Canada and Germany being made the cock-pit of a Party fight. There were matters of high policy involved, and it was surely to the interests of the nation that there should be continuity in matters of this kind, and that as far as possible both parties should pursue the same policy. Unless that were done England would certainly not keep the high position she had attained in the world. It was not statesmanship to have these sudden changes of policy put forward as they had been of late. The present proposals consisted of two policies which were; mutually antagonistic—the policy of preferential tariffs, and the policy of; retaliation, which was practically the protection of home manufactures. Speaking for himself, he considered the controversy with Canada a serious matter. Every, effort ought to he used to prevent discrimination against our colonies because they gave us a preference. There was no need to talk of war in regard to the matter, but neither was there any need to beg alliances with those who were exercising the hostile discrimination. Statesman-ship ought to solve the difficulty, and he hoped that statesmanship would solve it, for the last dispatch of Baron von Richthofen did show a desire to enter into negotiations on a particular important point, and the point brought out by the; hon. Member for Carnarvon that the matter would he taken up again in 1903
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  tended in the same direction. At the same time, our own trade was a matter of enormous importance to us, and we could not lightly begin a war of tariffs. By such a course we should inevitably hurt ourselves. Circumstances were onto; conceivable in which something would have to be done, but he hoped it would not be done as part of an election campaign. These matters should be treated not by sudden changes of opinion, announced by prominent statesmen, but by some carefully thought-out plan, which the nation could digest, and, if it thought it advisable, support.
  COLONEL NOLANcongratulated the Foreign Office on its firm1ness and resolution in withdrawing its Envoy from Servia after the murders; which, in his opinion, formed one of the most disgraceful events in the history of Europe for over a century. The "spirited policy" which had been suggested with regard to China and Persia would entail two armies of 50,000 being; in readiness for operations in Southern Russia and the Yang-tse Valley, and he was afraid the country was not anxious I for the expenditure which such a scheme would involve. As to the fiscal question, everybody seemed to attack the Foreign Office because nothing was done between 1899 and 1902. To his mind the reason was clear. No sensible nation, while at war, would irritate another first-class Power if it could be avoided, and the Government were perfectly right in allowing the matter to sleep until after the conclusion of die South African war. As to the matter of the Benedictine monks, he hoped the Foreign Office would be supplied with a list of the confiscated property. As far as he could make out, there was a grant of £400 a year, in addition to which there was £1,100 a year given through the Bishops. It was, not known whether the latter was confiscated or not. Then there were certain houses, the country house and a number of acres of land belonging to the old boys of the school, and the property of Mr. Ward. The speech of the Under-Secretary was very sympathetic, and he hoped the noble Lord would do his best in the matter, and that he would receive some support from French public opinion.
  MR WILLIAM REDMOND, hoped the members of this Order

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  would take the advice of the Under-Secretary of State and furnish the Foreign Office with a full and detailed list of the property which had been confiscated, and also that they would ascertain in the French Courts whether the property was rightly or wrongly taken from them. It would, however, he rather a hardship on the members of the community to adopt that procedure, as they were by no means wealthy, but he believed it was the proper course for them to take if they desired to establish a good case for intervention.
  MR. BRIGGsaid he wished to impress upon the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the necessity of encouraging the production of cotton in the Soudan. This was a subject in which the noble Lord had already taken some steps. It was well known that there was a short supply of cotton in Lancashire, and what he wished to point out was the immediate necessity of constructing the railway from Berber to Suakin winch was necessary in order to promote the production of cotton in the Soudan. The cotton produced in the Soudan was very valuable, and was largely used iii the manufacture of other textile fabrics. He trusted the railway he had alluded to would be pushed on, because in the Soudan, which was under British influence, there were over a million acres of very suitable land for cotton pawing, and he had good information to show that cotton could he grown there to a very large extent
  MR. LABOUCHEREsaid the hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs had brought a very important matter before the House, namely, that they had been practically deceived by what had gone on between Canada and the Foreign Office. They were told by the Colonial Secretary that he had received no information upon the matter. The hon. Member for Longford stated that papers on this subject had been laid before the Canadian Parliament and
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  that there had been a debate upon this question. His hon. friend the Member for the Carnarvon Boroughs gave an account of what took place in the Canadian Parliament, and he stated that a letter had been sent from the Canadian Government to the Colonial Office, which was sent on to the Foreign Office, and the Foreign Office had made that letter the basis of a communication to Germany. The Canadian Government did not demand retaliation from us, but they urged the German Government to take some friendly action in the matter, and the German Government replied that they would be very happy to do so in 1903. That threw an entirely different complexion upon the whole matter. He thought the noble Lord ought to give them some assurance that they were going to have those papers. The Cabinet Committee of Inquiry might have had these pipers, but the House of Commons had not had them, and he thought they were being most unfairly treated. He hoped the Colonial Secretary would promise to let them have those papers, otherwise they would have take very strong steps to get them.
  LORD CHARBORNEsaid he did not think the hon. Member who had just sat down was justified in the kind of language he had used, for he declared that the House of Commons had been deceived upon this matter.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: Hear, hear.
  LORD CRANBORNEsaid the complaint was that there was certain letter which had been made a secret of. He did not believe the hon. Member could have read the Blue Book, because if he had done so he would have seen on page 22 that the letter was referred to there. Therefore the accusation he made that the Government were keeping something secret, had no foundation. If they had desired to keep it secret they would not have mentioned it in that dispatch.
  Mr. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid there were other documents, and the noble Lord was not treating the Committee fairly.
  LORD CRANBORNEsaid he would deal with the other document later on. As to the letter from the High Commissioner of Canada, of which the hon. Member pretended that such a great secret had been made, it was sent to the Colonial Office, was handed to the Foreign Office, and then formed the subject of a communication to the Ambassador at Berlin. It was not made the basis of a representation to the German Government. Then it was alleged that there were certain conversations between the Canadian Minister and the German Consul-General, and that the account of those conversations was communicated in documentary form to the Canadian Parliament.
  Mr. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid that was not exactly the case, because the document was communicated to the German representative. It was not merely communicated to the Canadian Parliament, but presented by the Canadian Minister to the German representative, and afterwards to the Canadian Parliament.
  LORD CRANBORNEsaid it was his business to reply for the Foreign Office. He had not seen this document, and neither had the Colonial Secretary. Therefore no charge could be brought against the Government as to the laying of a document on the Table of the House which they had not yet seen. He resented the accusation of the hon. Member for Northampton, and suggested that a question should be addressed to the Colonial Secretary. The subject did not concern the Foreign Office It belonged to the Colonial Office, and
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  the hon. Member might put a Question on the Paper about it, instead of making accusations of deceit across the floor of the House.
  MR. BRYCEasked whether the noble Lord could not give an undertaking that the documents would be presented to the House, especially as they had been presented to the Canadian Parliament.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid those documents referred to the Foreign Office.
  MR. BLACKsaid that a Question had been addressed to the Colonial Secretary at the beginning of the week, and the right hon. Gentleman had denied the existence of any such document or letter.
  LORD CRANBORNEsuggested that another question should be framed and addressed to his right hon. friend. He could not, however, give an undertaking as to a subject which did not concern his Department. There was no desire whatever to deceive the House, and lie should be glad to give all the information in his power. He agreed as to the importance of the Suakin and Berber Railway and the encouragement of cotton-growing in Egypt. He assured the hon. Member that Lord Cromer and the Egyptian Government were keenly interested in the promotion of this railway, and no stone would be left unturned to push it forward without any unnecessary delay so far as the finances would permit. The hon. Member for Portsmouth had asked some questions about railways in Persia. The Persian Government were under an obligation not to build railways anywhere, and the British Government held a pledge that

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  when railways were constructed in the north of Persia they had a right to construct corresponding railways in the south by means of British capital. There was no question of railway construction by British capital in Turkish territory. Something was said about a fresh expedition in Somaliland. The present expedition had not come to an end. As regarded the prospects of the next phase in the campaign, that was a question which concerned more the Secretary of State for War. There was one matter which did belong to the Foreign Office, and that was the position of our relations with Abyssinia. The hon. member opposite said he had private information.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he did not say private information, because it was information which had appeared in the Press.
  LORD CRANBORNEsaid there had been no friction between the Abyssinians and this country, and the Government were working in complete harmony with Italy and were in constant communication with the Italian Government with reference to these operations. A large part of the area affected was within the Italian sphere, but there was no friction between them at all.
  SIR EDWARD GREYsaid the noble Lord was technically quite right in saying that the question with reference to the Canadian Papers which had been laid before the Canadian Parliament ought to be addressed to the Colonial Secretary, but the Foreign Office was responsible for presenting the papers which were in their possession. They knew in laying those papers that something had occurred
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  between the Canadian Government and the German Consul in Canada, and it ought to have occurred to them that the story they were laying before Parliament was likely not to be complete without a reference to what had passed in Canada. The noble Lord said he did not know what it was, and the Colonial Secretary did not know, but it should have occurred to them to find out whether what had passed was important, and whether it was required or not to complete the case which was going to be presented to Parliament. The Foreign Office having been responsible for presenting the case were bound to lay them before Parliament, and they ought to have a definite promise that these papers would be laid before the House as soon as possible.
  SIR CHARLES D1LKEsaid that perhaps it would be most convenient if he withdrew the Motion he had made.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  And it being Midnight, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

  PATENT OFFICE EXTENSION [EXPENSES].
  Resolution reported.
  "That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of all expenses incurred by the Commissioners of Works under any Act of the present session for the acquisition of land for the further extension of the Patent Office, and for purposes connected therewith."
  Resolution agreed to.
  Adjourned at five minutes after Twelve o'clock.