LICENSING ACTS (SCOTLAND) CONSOLIDATION AND AMENDMENT BILL.

HC Deb 13 July 1903 vol 125 cc417-81

As amended (by the Standing Committee), considered.

Clause (Forfeiture of Excise licences in certain cases—) In Part III., to move the following clause—'Every holder of an Excise licence for the sale of excisable liquor obtained without the production of a certificate from a licensing Court, who shall be guilty of an offence against the provisions of the sections of this Act, whereof the marginal notes are respectively "Distribution of liquor from vans," "Penalties for selling without certificate," "Penalty for selling spirits or trafficking in excisable liquors without certificate," and "Penalty for hawking excisable liquors," or any of such provisions, shall, on conviction thereof, forfeit such licence, and shall be incapable of obtaining or holding such licence for a period of two years from the date of such conviction, and it shall be the duty of the clerk of the convicting Court to transmit forthwith to the Commissioners of Inland Revenue the particulars of any such conviction.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made and Question proposed, "That the clause be read a second time."

MR. CROMBIE (Kincardineshire)

said the subject matter of this clause had been dealt with in another clause in the Bill, which left it in the hands of the magistrates, so that he knew there were some objections, and he had consequently put down a clause placing the question in the hands of the sheriffs. He would like to draw the attention of the House to the evils which it was desired to deal with. He had in his hand a letter from the Chief Constable of Dumbarton describing the evils which existed, largely in consequence of a trade that was established solely for the convenience of colonies of navvies engaged in railway construction. The Lord Advocate had described the evil as a small one, but it was likely to grow. So long as it was possible to do so by the establishment of bogus clubs, persons avoided compliance with the ordinary licensing laws of the country. Happily, the Bill would destroy that evil, and these persons were now being driven to seek their undesirable objects by other means, one of which was the utilisation of these Excise licences. Ordinary penalties were not in his opinion sufficient for offences in these cases, and he would therefore like to see the power of forfeiture conferred. That would be one of the most effective means of putting down she beening, and if the clause were read a second time he would move the insertion of words to secure that object.

Question put and agreed to.

MR. CROMBIE

said he would now move the Amendment he had indicated, and he might explain that he had taken the words from the certificate in the schedule of the Bill which was enforced on holders of licences who came before the magistrates.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In line 8, after the word 'provisions' to insert the words 'or of knowingly permitting any breach of the peace, or riotous or disorderly conduct within his premises, or selling or supplying excisable liquors to persons who are in a state of intoxication, or selling or giving out the same on Sunday.'"—(Mr. Crombie.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAY,) Buteshire

I am perfectly willing to insert the words, although I do not believe they are necessary.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause, as amended, added to the Bill.

Clause (Police to report offences)— In Part VI., insert the following clause:—'A chief officer of police shall, without undue delay, report to the procurator fiscal or other party by this Act directed to prosecute offenders all offences committed against this Act coming to his knowledge, and shall at all times use the means within his control for the detection and, when necessary, the apprehension of all offenders.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Brought up, and read the first and second time and added to the Bill.

MR. CROMBIE

, in moving the Second Reading of the new clause which stood in his name, explained that the result of the divisions upon it in Committee was a tie, and but for the absence of one hon. Member who had promised to support it, it would have been carried. It could not, therefore, be suggested that he was pursuing an obstructive policy in this matter. This was one of the few points which both the Majority and Minority Report of the Royal Commission recommended. No doubt there was great difficulty in regulating the opening and closing of licensed premises by reason of the existence of grocers' licences. They could not force a grocer to close his whole shop without inflicting great injustice upon him by preventing him selling provisions, while, if only one department of his premises was closed, the police had no guarantee that the law was strictly observed. He hoped that the Lord Advocate would accept the clause.

Clause (No new grocers' licences to be granted)— After the passing of this Act it shall not be lawful for the licensing authority of any burgh or county or district of a county to grant any new certificate for the sale of spirits, wine, beer, or other excisable liquors to any grocer or provision dealer, except in premises exclusively used for the sale of excisable liquors."—(Mr. Crombie.)

Brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made and Question proposed, That the clause be read a second time."

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said he did not for one moment complain of the action of the hon. Member in bringing this clause forward again, but he could only repeat the arguments which he used successfully—though with a very narrow majority in his favour—before the Committee. There might, of course, be something to be said on the question of the entire separation of the trades, but it should, in his opinion, be brought about by a general enactment. This clause would create a monopoly in favour of existing grocers' licences which would grow in value year by year. It would be a sort of tontine in favour of present licensed grocers, and future licence-holders would be penalised by having to compete in the trade under entirely different conditions. He doubted if public opinion was yet ripe for such a change in the law.

SIR ROBERT REID (Dumfries Burghs)

said the right hon. Gentleman had practically admitted that an evil existed by reason of premises not being exclusively used for the sale of excisable liquors—

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

I admitted the fact, but I do not admit it is an evil.

SIR ROBERT REID

said the right hon. Gentleman suggested there was a good deal to be said in favour of separation, and told them the subject was one which should be dealt with in a general enactment, although he was not prepared himself to take it in hand. Undoubtedly there was an evil which ought to be remedied. He dissented from the view that the acceptance of the Amendment would establish a sort of tontine in favour of existing licence-holders. It would not prevent the grant of fresh licences, however; it would only provide that new licences should be granted under circumstances in which the trade could be more satisfactorily carried on. It was to his mind a great pity—in view of the fact that both the

Minority and Majority Report were in favour of this proposal—that this opportunity of dealing with it should not be taken advantage of, seeing that no single vested interest would be prejudicially affected.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 64; Noes, 102. (Division List No. 142.)

AYES.
Asher, Alexander	Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Ashton, Thomas Gair	Furness, Sir Christopher	Russell, T. W.
Barran, Rowland Hirst	Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-	Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.	Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H.	Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Black, Alexander William	Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristl, E.	Spear, John Ward
Bryce, Right Hon. James	Hutchinson, Dr. Chas. Fredk.	Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn	Jones, David B. (Swansea)	Sullivan, Donal
Burt, Thomas	Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)	Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.
Buxton, Sydney Charles	Langley, Batty	Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Caldwell, James	Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)	Ure, Alexander
Cameron, Robert	Layland-Barratt, Francis	Wallace, Robert
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington)	Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasg.)	Leigh, Sir Joseph	Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.
Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark	Lewis, John Herbert	Wason, E. (Clackmannan)
Crooks, William	Lloyd-George, David	Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney)
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)	Lough, Thomas	Weir, James Galloway
Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardig'n	M'Crae, George	White, Luke, (York, E. R.)
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)	M'Kenna, Reginald	Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Elibank, Master of	M'Laren, Sir Charles Benj.
Ellis, John Edward	Markham, Arthur Basil
Evans, Sir F. H. (Maidstone)	Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)	Pirie, Duncan V.	Mr. Crombie and Sir
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.	Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries.	John Leng.
NOES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte	Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-	Kerr, John
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel	Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Jos. C.	Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon	Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N. R.
Anstruther, H. T.	Doogan, P. C.	Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage
Arrol, Sir William	Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers	Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.
Atkinson, Right Hon. John	Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Hart	Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham
Bain, Colonel James Robert	Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas	Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Man'r)	Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Man'r	Lonsdale, John Brownlee
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds	Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne	Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft
Bentinck, Lord Henry C.	Flavin, Michael Joseph	Lundon, W.
Bowles, T. Gibson (Lynn Regis)	Flower, Ernest	M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W.
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John	Forster, Henry William	M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire
Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasg.	Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.	M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire	Galloway William Johnson	Malcolm, Ian
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon J. (Birm	Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond	Mount, William Arthur
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A (Worc	Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans	Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute
Chapman, Edward	Gordon, Maj Evans (Tr. H'ml'ts	O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)
Churchill, Winston Spencer	Goulding, Edward Alfred	O'Dowd, John
Clive, Captain Percy A.	Gretton, John	O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)
Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E.	Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.	Pease, H. Pike (Darlington)
Coghill, Douglas Harry	Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord G. (Midd'x	Pemberton, John S. G.
Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Heath, James (Staffords. N. W.	Percy, Earl
Crossley, Sir Savile	Heaton, John Henniker	Plummer, Walter R.
Dalkeith, Earl of	Helder, Augustus	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Denny, Colonel	Hoult, Joseph	Purvis, Robert
Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)	Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred	Randles, John S.
Dickson, Charles Scott	Johnstone, Heywood	Redmond, Jn. E. (Waterford)
Remnant, Jas. Farquharson	Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks.)	Worsley-Taylor, Hry. Wilson
Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thomson	Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.	Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)	Young, Samuel
Round, Rt. Hon. James	Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-	Valentia, Viscount
Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander	Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Sharpe, William Edward T.	Wanklyn, James Leslie	Sir Alexander Acland-
Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)	Wilson, John (Falkirk)	Hood and Mr. Fellowes.
Simeon, Sir Barrington	Wilson John (Glasgow)

*MR. MUNRO FERGUSON (Leith Burghs)

said he should not have moved this new clause if the Bill stood in the form in which it left the Committee upstairs. Some important Amendments had been made in it, and if the Lord Advocate persisted they would be obliged to press this point home. He should have very much preferred that the Bill should have remained as it stood and that the Lord Advocate should have kept to it. This was a clause to check solicitation. The Lord Advocate claimed a right that the justices should express their own opinion for and against this or that application for a licence. Courts dealing with this question should be left alone, and if they were not left alone they could no longer be Courts. He did not think by his proposal that he was taking an exaggerated view of this matter because it was an acknowledged grievance all over the country. He begged to move.

Clause (Canvassing)— Any person canvassing any member of the licensing authority for a licence shall, on summary conviction before the sheriff, be liable to a penalty not exceeding £100."—(Mr. Munro Ferguson.)

Brought up and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the clause be read a second time."

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said he objected to this clause because it was practically unworkable. He thought the law officers of the Crown sitting near him would agree that they would be placed in a terrible quandary if they had to institute prosecutions under a clause like this.

SIR ROBERT REID

said he was very sorry that the Lord Advocate had refused to accept this proposal. The right hon. Gentleman had used upon this point the authority of the Minority and Majority Report, but those Reports did not say that this was a bad clause, and they only expressed the opinion that it might not be workable. They gave no authority on the question of principle, and all they did was to express an opinion as to the practicability of the clause being carried out. He suggested that the difficulty might be met by inserting the word "soliciting" instead of "canvassing." There could be no difficulty if they made it read "any person soliciting any member of a licensing authority for a licence." Common-sense told them that if they used an apt word like "soliciting" there could be no doubt about it. It did not signify whether they regarded the authority of the magistrates as being magisterial or judicial. The fact was that they ought to act impartially and in the interests of the public. To tell him that the scandal of perpetual solicitation on the part of those who wanted licences or on the part of those who wanted to oppose them could not be stopped was really taking a little liberty with one's intelligence. He submitted that it was perfectly easy to do this, and he hoped the Lord Advocate would agree to omit the word "canvassing" and insert "soliciting."

MR. GALLOWAY (Manchester, S.W.)

said the hon. and learned Member for Dumfries Burghs had stated that it was a scandal that persons should canvas any member of the licensing authority for a licence. The logic of the hon. and learned Gentleman's argument was that if it was wrong to solicit for a licence it was equally wrong to solicit against it. That contention was admitted by the hon. and learned Gentleman, but the hon. Member who moved the clause did not admit it, nor did he think of it when he moved the clause.

*MR. MUNRO FERGUSON

said he accepted that in Grand Committee.

MR. GALLOWAY

said that made the case all the worse. If the hon. Member accepted that contention in Grand Committee why did he not put it in the clause on the Notice Paper of the House of Commons? He himself should be very glad to see the suggestion of the hon. and learned Gentleman carried out so that it should be made equally punishable for people to canvass either for or against a licence.

SIR J. FERGUSSON (Manchester, N.E.)

said that in times past he would have had more sympathy with the Amendment proposed by the hon. Member for Leith. The practice of canvassing had been a very great nuisance. The case would now be considerably altered when the licensing duties were entrusted to a select body composed equally of members of the County Council and of county magistrates. If that body were well selected, and if they felt their personal responsibility, the House might feel more confidence that they would not be open to those private influences to which, in too numerous instances, the county magistrates had been open hitherto. While sympathising very much with the grounds of the proposal he did not think the clause necessary in view of the altered position of affairs.

SIR MARK STEWART (Kirkcudbrightshire)

said he could not forget that this was a Scotch Bill, and that it had nothing to do with the law in England. It might be said if one measure was passed for Scotland, English Members might feel that some day similar legislation would be proposed for England. He was anxious to see some words inserted which would prevent solicitation. It was notorious that a great deal was done in that way—he did not say with what effect on the magistrates. He was perfectly satisfied, from reports which had reached him, that there were persons unhappily to be found in Scotland who would offer inducements to magistrates one way or another, and he therefore appealed to his right hon. friend the Lord Advocate to insert words which would prevent the offering of these inducements. It was a very reasonable suggestion and he was satisfied that it had the support of a large majority of Scotch Members.

SIR JOHN LENG (Dundee)

said the right hon. Gentleman the Member for North-East Manchester seemed to think that because the members of the Court were to be reduced the evil which had hitherto existed would not be continued, or, at all events, would not be so badly felt. He feared it would only concentrate on the lesser number what both burgh magistrates and county magistrates had hitherto felt to be an intolerable nuisance. For a week or a fortnight before the Courts were held those who desired to have licences, and those who were afraid of having their licences withdrawn from them, spent their days and nights in canvassing the burgh and county magistrates. It was because this clause was for the suppression of an intolerable nuisance that he would give it his hearty support.

MR. GROVES (Salford, S.)

said the practice of canvassing had been for years an unmitigated and intolerable nuisance. He knew a case where the magistrates had been whipped up to oppose the confirmation of a licence. One of the magistrates had expressed his shame and sorrow to him that he allowed himself to be pledged before the case came before the Court, and added that if he had gone into Court unpledged against the licence he would certainly, on the merits, have voted for the confirmation of the licence. In framing new licensing laws it was very necessary that this long continued evil should be stopped once and for all.

MR. WALLACE (Perth)

said it did seem a remarkable thing if, when both sides of the House were practically at one on this matter, they could not frame a clause to give effect to what they desired. None of them were wedded to the particular words of the Amendment before the House. They did not want a one-sided clause forbidding canvassing for, and allowing it against, licences. His hon. friend was willing to accept such an alteration of the clause as the Lord Advocate might desire to cover both cases, and it would be an extraordinary thing if the House were to reject this clause because of the form in which it stood. He suggested that the Lord Advocate should insert words to carry out the intention which had been indicated by hon. Members. The practice of canvassing was a growing evil and a scandal in Scotland, and now that the licensing bodies were to be more restricted in number than before it would be more easy to canvass.

SIR LEWIS M'IVER (Edinburgh, W.)

said this growing evil was one which the Scotch people deprecated, and it ought not to be beyond the power of the House to frame a clause to deal with it. He would gladly leave the Lord Advocate to find words for the purpose. It was not only in the matter of licences, but in other things, that this practice of what he could only call dishonest canvassing and soliciting went on, and every method that could be introduced to suppress the growing impurity ought to be welcomed by such an Assembly as this.

SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN (Stirling Burghs)

said the Lord Advocate must have been impressed by the unanimity on this subject not only of Scotch, but of English, Members who had spoken. It seemed to be a matter which could be easily adjusted by a little alteration of the words of the proposed clause. He suggested that it should be altered to read in this way. "Any person soliciting any member of the licensing authority in respect of any application for a licence shall, on summary conviction before the sheriff, be liable to a penalty not exceeding £100." General words of that kind would cover the whole object expressed by speaker after speaker. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would see his way to accept some such solution.

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said he had no right to speak again except by leave of the House. The right hon. Gentleman proposed to insert the word "soliciting" instead of "canvassing." One could understand what was meant by soliciting for a licence, but it would be argued on the other side that they could not solicit against a licence. Therefore, while hon. Members on the other side of the House were quite willing, frankly and honestly, to insert words like those proposed, the two sides would not be equal. Many people were actuated—he was not saying a word against the perfect integrity of their views—by the notion that they were fulfilling a high duty when as temperance reformers they were doing their best to prevent particular licences being granted. They did so on general principles and not because they had anything to say against A. or B. Were hon. Members who were anxious to have the clause made applicable to both sides prepared to put under £100 penalty every temperance reformer who did what he could with a licensing authority to prevent them from granting any more licences? [Cries of "Yes."] If so, they were prepared to go a great deal farther than he had ever heard them confess before. Should they make the clause more stringent still and say that every person who spoke to a member of a licensing, authority on the subject of a licence should be liable to £100 penalty? People got information from what was said to them by other people, and if a member of a licensing authority was not to be allowed to commune with anybody at all on the question of what licences should or should not be granted, without making that person liable to a penalty, they ought to have a Licensing Court of Trappists who could not talk to anybody. The matter was fraught with difficulty. It was not that he had no sympathy with the idea which had been expressed, but he honestly thought that the alteration they were making in the Court, in having it a small body who were not like the old body that could be whipped up from all parts of the country, would be the real solution of the difficulty. He would have been perfectly willing to accept a clause on the question of bribery, because, although personally he thought bribery was always an offence, there was a decision that pointed the other way. He should have been glad to make it clear by Act of Parliament. He did think that on the whole it was safer not to accept the clause proposed by the hon. Member for Leith, but to trust to the ordinary amelioration of the position that would take place in there being a small and well-defined Court instead of a large body of justices who could be whipped up.

MR. PIKE PEASE (Darlington)

said he was very sorry at the decision to which the Lord Advocate had come. It appeared to him that a licensing magistrate was in much the same position as a Judge, and that they ought to endeavour to prevent anyone buying up his judgment—for that was what it came to. He thought that the Government should be able to find some words which would express the unanimous wish.

CAPTAIN SINCLAIR (Forfar)

said it was difficult for a layman to contest with the Lord Advocate on a point of law or a definition of terms. Very few of them but had had practical experience of this canvassing, and there seemed to be a unanimous opinion on all sides of the House that something should be done in the matter. If the clause passed its Second Reading he proposed to amend it by inserting the words suggested to the Lord Advocate by his right hon. friend—"Any person soliciting any member of the licensing authority in respect of any application for a licence shall," etc.

MR. PARKER SMITH (Lanarkshire, Partick)

said that it would be exceedingly hard to draw the line between what was a perfectly legitimate giving of information and what was soliciting. He thought that any man sitting in a Licensing Court, who respected himself, would be perfectly able to protect himself against private solicitation. When, by the force of logic, hon. Gentlemen opposite said that they were willing to do as much on one side as on the other, was it conceivable to imagine that they were going to make a man pay a penalty of £100 who in any way expressed himself against the granting of a particular licence? He lived in a village where there was no licensed house at all, and he did not want one, and was he not to be free to say to a licensing magistrate, if he happened to meet him—"The village is going on admirably without a licensed house, and I do not want one?" Was he to be open to a penalty of £100 for passing that remark? He should be surprised if the temperance party throughout Scotland accepted that position, and did not use very strong expressions against limiting freedom of conversation outside the Licensing Court.

*MR. JOHN WILSON (Falkirk Burghs)

said that as an employer, having a considerable experience on questions connected with licensing, he had long opposed licences being granted for houses near public works, where they were a very serious source of danger. Two years ago a firm of publicans took him into Court, at an ultimate cost of £200, simply because he had spoken to some of his brother magistrates against granting a licence near his collieries. It was all very well to talk about temperance reformers with biased minds, but that was what happened to an employer who opposed the granting of a licence for the benefit of his workmen, who themselves were all against the licence. He would not be inclined to support the equivalent; though he was quite willing to accept the proposal that a publican who was interested in getting a licence should be punished for soliciting a licensing magistrate. It was the pecuniary interest of a publican to get a licence: it was no interest to an employer to get the licence refused, otherwise than for the benefit of the workmen and their moral welfare.

MR. BUCHANAN (Perthshire, E.)

said he hoped they had not got the last word from the Lord Advocate. This was one of the most important alterations, from a social point of view, that could be made in our licensing system. Anyone who had any experience in the administration of the licensing law could not but be aware of many flagrant cases of influences of the most objectionable kind being brought to bear on the licensing magistrate in favour of an application for a licence. It was no reply to the substance of the Amendment for the Lord Advocate to make of it a reductio ad absurdum. Surely it was not impossible—in fact he knew that it was not—for the skill of the Lord Advocate and the right hon. Gentleman at his side to devise a form of words not open to the difficulty the Lord Advocate had suggested.

SIR J. STIRLING-MAXWELL (Glasgow, College)

thought that the Lord Advocate had taken a very wise course in this matter. As a possible member of a licensing authority he looked with great distrust on the clause. He knew that it had been customary in Scotland for applicants for a licence to canvas for votes of magistrates. For his part, if he had the honour of serving in a Licensing Court and a man came to him to ask for his vote he would say to that applicant, "Before you go any further perhaps I

ought to inform you that I make it a rule to vote against any application for a licence which is accompanied by an unscrupulous canvas of this kind." If he took that course he did not think he would be troubled again.

MR. SAMUEL YOUNG (Cavan, E.)

said he hoped the Lord Advocate would stick to his guns. The Amendment was one-sided and might do a great deal of injustice in many respects.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 83; Noes, 146. (Division List No. 143.)

AYES.
Asher, Alexander	Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J.	Reid, Sir R. T. (Dumfries)
Barran, Rowland Hirst	Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick	Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.	Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-	Russell, T. W.
Black, Alexander William	Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H.	Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Bowles, T. G. (Lynn Regis)	Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristl, E	Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Brown, Geo. M. (Edinburgh)	Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry	Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Bryce, Right Hon. James	Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.	Spear, John Ward
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn	Joicey, Sir James	Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Burt, Thomas	Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea	Tennant, Harold John
Buxton, Sydney Charles	Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)	Thomas, Sir A. (Glam., E.)
Caldwell, James	Lambert, George	Tomkinson, James
Cameron, Robert	Langley, Batty	Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)	Tritton, Charles Ernest
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow	Layland-Barratt, Francis	Ure, Alexander
Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)	Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington)	Wallace, Robert
Crombie, John William	Leigh, Sir Joseph	Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Crooks, William	Leng, Sir John	Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)	Lloyd-George, David	Wason, E. (Clackmannan)
Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan	Lough, Thomas	Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney)
Denny, Colonel	M'Crae, George	Weir, James Galloway
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)	M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinb'rgh, W.	White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Edwards, Frank	M'Laren, Sir Charles Benj.	Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Elibank, Master of	Mappin, Sir Fredk. Thorpe	Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Ellis, John Edward	Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen
Emmott, Alfred	Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose
Evans, Sir F. H. (Maidstone)	O'Shaughnessy, P. J.	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Farquharson, Dr. Robert	Palmer, Sir C. M. (Durham)	Mr. Munro Ferguson and
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.	Paulton, James Mellor	Sir Mark Stewart.
Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	Pease, H. Pike (Darlington)
Furness, Sir Christopher	Pirie, Duncan V.
NOES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte	Bentinck, Lord Henry C.	Clive, Captain Percy A.
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel	Bill, Charles	Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.
Ambrose, Robert	Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John	Coghill, Douglas Harry
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Bull, William James	Cohen, Benjamin Louis
Anstruther, H. T.	Burke, E. Haviland	Colston, Chas. Edw H. Athole
Arrol, Sir William	Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Glasg.	Crossley, Sir Savile
Atkinson, Right Hon. John	Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.	Dalkeith, Earl of
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.	Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.	Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy	Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)	Dickson, Charles Scott
Bain, Colonel James Robert	Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)	Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Jos. C.
Baird, John George Alexander	Chamberlain, Rt. Hon J. (Birm	Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph
Baldwin, Alfred	Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc	Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r.)	Chaplin, Right Hon. Henry	Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds)	Chapman, Edward	Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Hart
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin	Churchill, Winston Spencer	Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas
Fardell, Sir T. George	Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)	Remnant, Jas. Farquharson
Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Man'r	Lawson, Jn. Grant (Yorks. N. R.	Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst	Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage	Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thomson
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.	Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.	Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne	Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.	Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford
Fisher, William Hayes	Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham	Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
FitzGerald, Sir Robt. Penrose	Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.	Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Flavin, Michael Joseph	Lonsdale, John Brownlee	Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight
Flower, Ernest	Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)	Sharpe, William Edward T.
Forster, Henry William	Lucas, Reg'ld J. (Portsmouth)	Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew
Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.	Macdona, John Cumming	Simeon, Sir Barrington
Fyler, John Arthur	M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)	Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Galloway, William Johnson	M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)	Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.
Gardner, Ernest	Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H. E. (Wigt'n	Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H. (City of Lond'n	Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.	Stirling-Maxwell, Sir Jn. M.
Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans	Mitchell, William (Burnley)	Stroyan, John
Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn	Morrison, James Archibald	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Gordon, Maj Evans (T'r H'mlets	Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer	Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Eldon	Mount, William Arthur	Valentia, Viscount
Goschen, Hon. Geo. Joachim	Mowbray, Sir Robt. Gray C.	Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. H.
Goulding, Edward Alfred	Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bate	Wanklyn, James Leslie
Gretton, John	Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry)	Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton
Groves, James Grimble	O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)	Williams, Rt. Hn. J. Powell- (Birm
Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.	O'Dowd, John	Wills, Sir Frederick
Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Ld. G. (Midx	O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)	Wilson, A. S. (York, E. R.)
Hatch, Ernest Frederick G.	Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay	Wilson John (Glasgow)
Heath, James (Staffords, N. W.	Parkes, Ebenezer	Worsley-Taylor, Hry. Wilson
Heaton, John Henniker	Pemberton, John S. G.	Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Helder, Augustus	Percy, Earl	Young, Samuel
Hoult, Joseph	Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard
Johnstone, Heywood	Plummer, Walter R.
Kemp, Lieut.-Colonel George	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop	Randles, John S.	Sir Alexander Acland-
Kerr, John	Rattigan, Sir William Henry	Hood and Mr. Fellowes.
Knowles, Lees	Redmond, Jn. E. (Waterford)
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow	Reid, James (Greenock)

SIR J. STIRLING-MAXWELL

said that the clause he now moved was taken from the English Act, and had reference to persons found in licensed promises after the hour of closing. The matter was dealt with to some extent under Clause 67, which made it actionable to be found on licensed premises after the hour of closing. He moved the clause both in the interests of temperance and also in the interests of persons conducting licensed houses.

Clause (Penalty on person found on premises during closing hours)— If, during any period during which any premises are required under the provisions of this Act to be closed, any person is found on such premises, he shall, unless he satisfies the Court that he was an inmate, servant, or a lodger on such premises, or a bonâ fide traveller, or that otherwise his presence on such premises was not in contravention of the provision of this Act with respect to the closing of the licensed premises, be liable to a penalty not exceeding 40s. Any constable may demand the name and address of any person found on any premises during the period during which they are required by the provisions of this Act to be closed, and if he has reasonable ground to suppose that the name and address given is false may require evidence of the correctness of such name and address, and may, if such person fail upon such demand to give his name or address or such evidence, apprehend him without warrant and convey him as soon as practicable before a justice of the peace or other magistrate. Any person required by a constable under this section to give his name and address who fails to give the same, or gives a false name and address, or gives false evidence with respect to such name and address, shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding £5.—(Sir J. Stirling-Maxwell.)

Brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the clause be read a second time."

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said that the fate of the hon. Baronet's clause in Committee was that it was negatived without a division. He hoped its fate on Report would be the same. The similar clause in the English Act had been of no use whatever except to the lawyers. He would put a perfectly simple case to show how the clause would work. A person keeping a hotel had friends. He presumed a hotel-keeper was entitled to have friends. A friend might come to see him and remain after the closing hour—say ten o'clock. He would not be an inmate or a servant or a lodger or a bonâ fide traveller. Yet, according to the view of the hon. Baronet, the hotel-keeper would be obliged to turn his friend into the street at ten o'clock. Surely the hotel-keeper might be allowed a little time to indulge in intellectual recreation after the heavy work of inn-keeping during the day. He thought the clause would not check any abuse, although it might lead to many cases being argued in the Courts.

Question put and negatived.

MR. CALLOWAY

said that the object of the clause he would now move was to place railway refreshment rooms in Scotland in exactly the position they were in England. He did not deny that there was a good deal to be said on both sides of the question. There was much to be said for the clause on the ground of convenience. As he understood the objection to the clause, it was that it might lead to a great deal of abuse by persons being allowed to purchase a penny ticket and then get drink at the railway refreshment rooms when the public houses were closed. That was an evil which the House should not do anything to continue; but he thought the accounts which had been given of what happened in Scotland in that respect had been greatly exaggerated. He did not think that many persons would take the trouble to go to a railway station and purchase a ticket in order to get drink. But the railway companies would not be compelled to open their refreshment rooms; if they were, there might be a great deal of force in what he might call the penny-railway-ticket argument. He moved the clause in the interests of the travelling public. It worked well in England; and he did not see how it could work any harm in Scotland. If the railway companies found that the clause was being availed of by persons purchasing penny tickets they could put up the price of the tickets and preclude any such possibility taking place.

Clause (Exemption of Railway Stations)— Nothing in this Act contained as to hours of closing shall preclude the sale at any time at a railway station of excisable liquors to persons arriving at or departing from such station by railroad."—(Mr. Galloway.)

Brought up and read the first time.

Motion made and Question proposed, "That the clause be read a second time."

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said that the fate of this clause in Committee was that it was defeated by seventeen votes to sixteen. He himself voted in the minority. It seemed to him that there were certain stations in Scotland where there ought to be facilities for the sale of liquor. He would instance Perth, where people arrived very often after a tedious journey; and it was really very inconvenient that they should not be allowed to be served with liquor on such occasions. On the other hand, there were stations such as the Central Station at Glasgow where it would be inadvisable that liquor should be sold after the public houses had been shut. If the railway companies found that such a station was being turned into an ordinary public house, for their own protection they should cease to supply liquor when the public houses were closed. Having regard to his own view to alter the Bill as little as possible he would not propose to take any strictly Government part in the division. He should repeat his vote in Committee in favour of the clause, but he should leave the hon. Member to persuade the House to vote for it without the assistance of the Government.

SIR ROBERT REID

said it came back to this. Where they had private premises in a particular borough were they to regulate them for the inhabitants of the borough or for the purposes of convenience of fifteen or twenty persons a week who might want to get a drink after ten o'clock at night. These refreshment rooms belonged to railway companies, but were not managed by them, they were often sub-let, and it was quite impossible for those who managed them to know whether the persons who came and asked for drink were persons who had arrived or who were about to depart from the station. The result would be that indiscriminate use would be made of these refreshment rooms by persons for whom they were not intended. Where public houses were closed at ten o'clock these refreshment rooms would be open until eleven or after for the convenience of persons coming through by train. They must take into consideration what were the worst evils. In the one case this clause might go far to do away with all the good of early closing all over Scotland, and in the other, there was the convenience of a few gentlemen travelling North. Such a clause would be intolerable. The Lord Advocate had said very fairly he did not wish to regard this Amendment as a Government Amendment, and he (Sir Robert Reid) hoped that all the Scottish Members would vote against it.

SIR J. FERGUSSON

said he spoke from frequent experience of the hardship as it stood. The magistrates of Scotland had, within certain limits, power to shorten the hours during which licensed premises might remain open. It constantly happened that people arriving at large stations by late trains were unable to get even a cup of tea or coffee because the refreshment room was not allowed to be open owing to excisable liquors being sold there. That was a monstrous hardship. Real travellers ought not to be debarred from getting refreshments under such circumstances. He thought the proposal was a reasonable one and would support it.

*SIR HERBERT MAXWELL (Wigtonshire)

said he could assure the House that, on the railway of which he had been a director for thirteen years, none of the refreshment rooms were sub-let to any contractor. They were all under the hotel management. He would also point out that railway companies did not keep these bars in order to make a profit out of them, but as a convenience for their passengers, who were the customers of these bars. In any case where doubt arose about the bona fides of a customer, he might be called upon to show his railway ticket. He thought sufficient had been said to justify the demand on the part of the Scotch railways and he should support the clause.

MR. MUNRO FERGUSON

said he hoped this clause would not be put into the Bill. Unless a passenger wanted a bottle of whiskey at six in the morning, which was the worst time of the day he could take it, he could get all he wanted from the refreshment car. There were abuses to be considered in this matter. Waverley Station was often over-crowded, especially at night, with persons who had been drinking somewhere if not in the refreshment room. On many occasions the condition of Waverley Station was not at all what it ought to be, and this clause, if included in the Bill, would not tend to decrease the overcrowding. For his part he hoped the Bill would remain as it was.

MR. CORBETT (Glasgow, Tradeston)

said he hoped the clause would not be carried. He thought that those who only considered the convenience of the traveller getting liquor when he wanted it, did not regard the magnitude of the problem before them. That was surely a trifle compared to the wellbeing of the Scottish people.

MR. GRETTON (Derbyshire, S.)

said they had had some experience of refreshment bars in England, and that experience did not lead them to anticipate any of those violent evils which some were afraid would occur in Scotland. The railway companies were interested in their property and would see that it was not deteriorated by mismanagement. He did not think there would be any greater iniquity if this was enforced in Scotland than there was in England. It seemed to him a great hardship that travellers should not be able to obtain such refreshments as they required.

SIR MARK STEWART

said he was a director for eighteen years of a very small line of railway, and upon that line of railway no liquor was ever allowed to be sold, but he did not notice in consequence that the conditions of travelling were bad, whilst the conditions of the railway stations were distinctly different to those on other lines. There was a very great temptation to railway servants to go into a railway bar and drink. Drink was given them by passengers, and disastrous consequences sometimes ensued.

Question put.

The House divided: Ayes, 148; Noes 117. (Division List No. 144.)

AYES.
Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F.	Flavin, Michael Joseph	Mitchell, William (Burnley)
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte	Flower, Ernest	Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel	Forster, Henry William	Morrison, James Archibald
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.	Morton, Arthur H. Aymler
Anstruther, H. T.	Fyler, John Arthur	Mowbray, Sir Robt. Gray C.
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John	Gardner, Ernest	Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.	Garfit, William	Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Bailey, James (Walworth)	Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond	O'Dowd, John
Bain, Colonel James Robert	Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans	O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)
Baldwin, Alfred	Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn	Pemberton, John S. G.
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r	Gordon, Maj. Evans- (Tr. Hml'ts	Pilkington, Colonel Richard
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey	Gore, Hn. G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds)	Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- (Linc)	Purvis, Robert
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj.	Goschen, Hon. Geo. Joachim	Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Beach, Rt. Hon. Sir M. Hicks	Goulding, Edward Alfred	Redmond, Jn. E. (Waterford)
Bentinck, Lord Henry C.	Gretton John	Reid, James (Greenock)
Bill, Charles	Greville, Hon. Ronald	Remnant, James Farquharson
Brassey, Albert	Groves, James Grimble	Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John	Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill	Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Bull, William James	Gunter, Sir Robert	Royds, Clement Molyneux
Burke, E. Haviland-	Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.	Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire	Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Ld. G. (Midx	Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)	Hatch, Ernest Frederick G.	Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)	Heath, James (Staffs., N. W.)	Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm	Helder, Augustus	Seely, Mj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc	Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.	Sharpe, William Edward T.
Chaplin, Right Hon. Henry	Johnstone, Heywood	Simeon, Sir Barrington
Chapman, Edward	Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop	Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Clive, Captain Percy A.	Kerr, John	Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)
Coghill, Douglas Harry	Knowles, Lees	Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole	Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)	Stanley, Lord (Lancs)
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas	Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool	Sturt, Hn. Humphrey Napier
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge	Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N. R.	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton)	Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)	Thornton, Percy M.
Crossley, Sir Savile	Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage	Valentia, Viscount
Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)	Leveson-Gower, (Frederick N. S.	Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Dickinson, Robert Edmond	Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.	Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.
Dickson, Charles Scott	Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine	Wanklyn, James Leslie
Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Joseph C.	Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham	Warde, Colonel C. E.
Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon	Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.	Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers	Loyd, Archie Kirkman	Williams, Rt. Hn. J. Powell- (Birm
Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Hart	Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft	Wills, Sir Frederick
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas	Lucas, Reg'ld J. (Portsmouth)	Wilson, A. S. (York, E. R.)
Faber, George Denison (York)	Macdona, John Cumming	Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks.)
Fardell, Sir T. George	MacNeill, John Gordon Swift	Worsley-Taylor, Hry. Wilson
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Ed.	M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W.	Young, Samuel
Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Man'r	M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst	Malcolm, Ian	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.	Manners, Lord Cecil	Mr. Galloway and Earl
Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas	Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H. E. (Wig'n	of Dalkeith.
Fisher, William Hayes	Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.
NOES.
Arrol, Sir William	Bryce, Right Hon. James	Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasg.)
Asher, Alexander	Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn	Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)
Ashton, Thomas Gair	Burt, Thomas	Crombie, John William
Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbt. Hy.	Buxton, Sydney Charles	Crooks, William
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy	Caldwell, James	Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)
Baird, John George Alexander	Cameron, Robert	Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan)
Barran, Rowland Hirst	Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgw	Denny, Colonel
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.	Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph
Black, Alexander William	Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.	Douglas Charles M. (Lanark)
Brand, Hon. Arthur G.	Churchill, Winston Spencer	Dunn, Sir William
Brown, Geo. M. (Edinburgh)	Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E.	Edwards, Frank
Elibank, Master of	Leigh, Sir Joseph	Spear, John Ward
Ellis, John Edward	Leng, Sir John	Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart
Emmott, Alfred	Lonsdale, John Brownlee	Stroyan, John
Evans, Sir F. H. (Maidstone)	M'Crae, George	Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Farquharson, Dr. Robert	M'Kenna, Reginald	Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne	M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire)	Tennant, Harold John
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.	Mappin, Sir Fredk. Thorpe	Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, E.)
Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen	Thomas, Sir A. (Glam., E.)
Furness, Sir Christopher	Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose	Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)
Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Eldon	Mount, William Arthur	Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)
Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick	Orr-Ewing, (Charles Lindsay	Toulmin, George
Harmsworth, R. Leicester	Palmer, Sir C. M. (Durham)	Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-	Partington, Oswald	Tritton, Charles Ernest
Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.	Paulton, James Mellor	Ure, Alexander
Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley)	Pease, H. Pike (Darlington)	Wallace, Robert
Heaton, John Henniker	Percy, Earl	Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristl, E.	Philipps, John Wynford	Wason, E. (Clackmannan)
Horniman, Frederick John	Pirie, Duncan V.	Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry	Plummer, Walter R.	Weir, James Galloway
Hoult, Joseph	Price, Robert John	Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton
Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.	Randles, John S.	White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Joicey, Sir James	Rattigan, Sir William Henry	Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Jones, David B. (Swansea)	Reid, Sir. R. Threshie (Dumfries	Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.	Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)	Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Kemp, Lieut.-Colonel George	Round, Rt. Hon. James
Labouchere, Henry	Russell, T. W.	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Langley, Batty	Samuel, Herbt. L. (Cleveland)	Mr. Munro Ferguson and
Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)	Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)	Sir Charles Renshaw.
Layland-Barratt, Francis	Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.
Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington)	Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Clause added to the Bill.

MR. CROMBIE

, who had given notice of an Amendment to omit "and Appeal Courts" from the heading to Part I., asked whether the retention of the word "appeal" would preclude him from moving the omission of Clause 4? If not, he would not detain the House by moving the Amendment.

*MR. SPEAKER

said the words were not so far a part of the Bill that their retention would preclude the hon. Member moving the omission of Clause 4.

Mr. CROMBIE

said in that case he would move the second Amendment of which he had given notice—viz., to substitute "authorities" for "Courts" in line 6. Many Members had a suspicion of the word "Courts," as it represented a new departure. In an important licensing case the decision had turned on whether or not the licensing body was a Court, and the point was decided in the negative. For the reasons which had been given they preferred the word "authority."

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 10, to leave out the word 'Courts,' and insert the word 'authorities.'"—(Mr. Crombie.)

Question proposed. "That the word 'Courts' stand part of the Bill."

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said that if the word "Court" did not stand "authority" would not do. They had taken the word "Court," because it was the ordinary word in Scotland used in every newspaper, used by the Judges, and in the judicial statistics. He did not think hon. Members opposite could produce a single Scottish newspaper in which the proceedings of the licensing bodies had been called anything else but a licensing Court. Of course it was not a Court of law, but there was a judicial discretion to be exercised by the magistrate who sat upon the new body. He assured the House that not only was the word "Court" the word which had always been used, but it was the most convenient, and he hoped that they would not alter the term.

SIR ROBERT REID

said he did not want to make too much of this Amendment, but at the same time it was rather important. The Lord Advocate had told them that if they looked in Scotch newspapers or consulted the opinions of Scotch Judges or looked at the judicial statistics they would see that the word used was "Court." The right hon. Gentleman had omitted to say that there had never been any statute in which this body had been called a Court and it had never been so called in any Act of Parliament. What was the reason for the change? He did not think they ought to pay much attention to what term newspaper reporters employed in this matter. The word "Court." seemed to mean something in the nature of a judicial tribunal. Some question arose in regard to the functions of this tribunal in the English Courts, and great stress was laid upon the circumstances that it was not called a Court in the Act of Parliament, and the Judges pointed out that if it had been called a Court some different construction might have been arrived at. The question whether this was called a Court or not, might have some effect upon the application of the general law. He did not think it was unreasonable to entertain some apprehension as to what might occur if the inexplicable practice of using understood terms were not to be abandoned in favour of other words.

SIR J. FERGUSSON

asked the hon. and learned Gentleman what sort of a Court he considered Quarter Sessions was. Cases of this kind often came before Quarter Sessions, and now it was proposed to substitute another term.

*MR. MCCRAE (Edinburgh, E.)

said he hoped the Lord Advocate would meet them upon this point, as there was considerable feeling with regard to the danger of putting another interpretation upon the word "Court." In a deputation which waited on the Secretary for Scotland, opinion was unanimous as to the danger of this change, and he understood that the Lord Advocate was at one with them and the general feeling of the House upon the merits of the question. The Lord-Advocate told them that the word "authorities" was not the proper word to use, but he did not tell them why. Surely he could supply a word instead of "Court," which would not have the danger, and which would not lead to litigation in the future. Seeing that they were at one upon the merits of the question with the Lord Advocate, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would allow this change to be made.

MR. WHITTAKER (Yorkshire, W.R., Spen Valley)

said this was a vital matter, because these authorities did not sit as Courts. The Lord Chancellor had pointed out that these bodies sat as a meeting and not as a Court. Before this change was made, they ought to know what was the object of making it. If this clause passed as it stood it would be held that licensing authorities sat as Courts and acted judicially. Such a contention was absolutely contrary to the law, because they did not sit as Judges to decide, or as a Court, and they ought to know what the object of the Government was in insisting upon this change. There was not an Act of Parliament in Scotland, and no licensing Act which described these bodies as sitting as Courts, and to give them the name of "Court" would go a long way towards making them into Courts, and therefore this was a vital matter in regard to the administration of the licensing laws.

MR. T. W. RUSSELL (Tyrone, S.)

pointed out that when the Prime Minister was called upon to defend the language he used about the licensing magistrates he defended it upon the express grounds that they did not constitute a Court.

MR. ASQUITH (Fifeshire, E.)

said it might be argued that this was a matter of phraseology, but it was a change of phraseology which might well be held to mark a new departure indicated by the legislature by the selection for the first time of a term like this. Here they were constituting a new body and they proposed to give to it a designation which he thought must be interpreted by any tribunal afterwards as implying the exercising of judicial functions. That was a designation which was wholly inappropriate to describe the functions of the licensing authority. There was no litigation and no parties, and the matter was an administrative one to be determined in a judicial manner. Therefore, it was a most undesirable thing to start this new departure, which suggested that the new bodies that they were going to call into existence were judicial tribunals.

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

pointed out that they had to give notice in such appeals to the opposite party.

MR. WALLACE

said he understood from the Lord Advocate that after this Act was passed those who were members of this so-called Court who had private knowledge of their own and information in regard to the locality to lay before their colleagues, could not do so unless it was offered as evidence before the Court, He did not think the Lord Advocate was right in imposing upon the authorities he wished to create, the obligation of acting as a Court of law, and deciding upon evidence placed before it. That was one thing which they had always protested against. It appeared to him that it was intended by a side wind to enact that, in future, magistrates should be restricted simply to listening to evidence, and would not be allowed to bring private information which they had received in connection with the locality before their colleagues. This would introduce an entirely new state of things into Scotland, which a great majority of hon. Members were not prepared for. Therefore Scotch Members were justified in strongly protesting against a change which seemed to them unnecessary.

MR. HUNTER CRAIG (Lanarkshire, Govan)

said that when a deputation waited upon the Secretary for Scotland some time ago he assured them that the use of the word "Court" did not mean an alteration of the constitution of the licensing authority. He hoped the Lord Advocate would not persist in using the word "Court," thereby limiting the powers of the licensing authority. In this consolidating Bill the word "Court" appeared about 180 times. Why not use the word authority?

COLONEL DENNY (Kilmarnock Burghs)

asked whether the word "Court" would bring about a change in the procedure of the licensing bodies.

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

No.

SIR JOHN LENG

said he wished to point out two remarkable facts. In connection with the Licensing Commission, which sat three or four years ago, the tribunals that disposed of licences were never spoken of as Courts. Not only so, but in the Bill passed two years ago dealing with the licensing question in England this word was not applied as it was applied in this Bill. As to its being a question of phraseology, he thought the Lord Advocate in Grand Committee much more definitely repudiated the idea that this was to be a Court in the ordinary sense than he had done in the House to-day. He would be satisfied if the Lord Advocate would repeat in the House what he said in Grand Committee. Then that would stand in the reports of this House.

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said he would be most happy to repeat in the House what he said in Grand Committee—namely, that the use of the word "Court" was not intended to in any way trench upon the absolute discretion of the licensing bodies. They were entitled not only to act upon evidence but also on their own general information as to the merits of the case. He could not see how any question of legal interpretation could arise on the word "Court" at all.

MR. CALDWELL (Lanarkshire, Mid)

said the word "Court" was a misnomer here. In the case of an application for a licence they proceeded on the footing that the sale of intoxicating liquor was prohibited and that the law sanctioned the granting of a licence to a certain individual to meet the requirements of a certain locality. He therefore thought that the Court of First Instance was not a Court in the ordinary sense of the term. He quite admitted that the word Court was so frequently used that the meeting of the magistrates or justices had come to be regarded as a Court. At the same time he did not think that a matter of this kind should be determined by a word which had cropped up accidentally. He ventured to say that in a statute, Parliament generally used language appropriate to the purpose. Here they were dealing with a case where the granting of licences was a power conferred on the licensing authority. A person who applied for a licence had no legal right to a licence, and he could make no complaint if the application was refused. The power of granting or refusing was entirely vested in the justices, and they were not bound to give any reason why they refused a licence. The Lord Advocate had referred to the term "Appeal Court" in the Home Drummond Act, but that was a different matter. It was quite possible that there might be an Appeal Court in connection with which certain procedure had to be taken as to the serving of intimation and the hearing of parties, but there was nothing analogous to that, in the granting of licences in the first instance. He believed the Government desired to introduce the thin end of the wedge so that eventually the licensing authority, instead of having the absolute

discretion it had now, would be hedged about with statutory restrictions by which it should only be able on certain grounds to refuse the renewal of licences. That was the meaning of the use of the word Court, but it was absolutely inappropriate to the body dealing with an application where no one had any absolute claim.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 206; Noes, 90. (Division List, No. 145)

AYES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte	Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers	Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N. R.
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel	Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Hart	Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas	Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage
Anstruther, H. T.	Faber, George Denison (York)	Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.
Arrol, Sir William	Fardell, Sir T. George	Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.
Atkinson, Right Hon. John	Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Man'r	Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.	Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst	Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy	Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.	Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.
Bailey, James (Walworth)	Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne	Lowe, Francis William
Bain, Colonel James Robert	Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas	Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)
Baird, John George Alexander	Fisher, William Hayes	Lowther, Rt. Hon. Jas. (Kent)
Balcarres, Lord	Flannery, Sir Fortescue	Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Baldwin, Alfred	Flavin, Michael Joseph	Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Man'r	Flynn, James Christopher	Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth)
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey	Forster, Henry William	Macdona, John Cumming
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds	Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.)	MacIver, David (Liverpool)
Banbury, Sir Frederick George	Fyler, John Arthur	M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)
Bartley, Sir George C. T.	Galloway, William Johnson	M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W.
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj.	Gardner, Ernest.	M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire)
Bentinck, Lord Henry C.	Garfit, William	M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)
Bill, Charles	Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond	Malcolm, Ian
Blundell, Colonel Henry	Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans	Manners, Lord Cecil
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith	Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & N'rn	Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H. E. (Wigt'n
Bowles, Col. Henry F. (Midd'x)	Gore, Hn. G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop	Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.
Brassey, Albert	Gore, Hn. S. F. Ormsby- (Linc	Mitchell, William (Burnley)
Bull, William James	Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Eldon	Molesworth, Sir Lewis
Burke, E. Haviland	Goschen, Hon. Geo. Joachim	Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.	Goulding, Edward Alfred	Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.)
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)	Gretton, John	Morrison, James Archibald
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)	Greville, Hon. Ronald	Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)	Groves, James Grimble	Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)	Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill	Muntz, Sir Philip A.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc)	Gunter, Sir Robert	Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute
Chapman, Edward	Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.	Myers, William Henry
Churchill, Winston Spencer	Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Ld. G. (Midx	O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)
Clive, Captain Percy A.	Hatch, Ernest Frederick G.	O'Dowd, John
Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E.	Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley)	O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)
Colston, Chas. Edw H. Athole	Heath, James (Staffs., N. W.)	Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Cox, Irwin Edwd. Bainbridge	Heaton, John Henniker	Pease, H. Pike (Darlington)
Cranborne, Viscount	Helder, Augustus	Peel, Hn. Wm. R. Wellesley
Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton)	Hogg, Lindsay	Pemberton, John S. G.
Crossley, Sir Savile	Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry	Percy, Earl
Cullinan, J.	Hoult, Joseph	Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Dalkeith, Earl of	Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred	Plummer, Walter R.
Denny, Colonel	Johnstone, Heywood	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)	Kemp, Lieut.-Colonel George	Pretyman, Ernest George
Dickinson, Robert Edmond	Kenyon-Slaney Col. W. (Salop	Purvis, Robert
Dickson, Charles Scott	Kerr, John	Randles, John S.
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-	King, Sir Henry Seymour	Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Jos. O.	Knowles, Lees	Rattigan, Sir William Henry
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph	Lambton, Hon. Fredk. Wm.	Redmond, Jn. E. (Waterford)
Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon	Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)	Reid, James (Greenock)
Donelan, Captain A.	Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)	Remnant, Jas. Farquharson
Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine	Spear, John Ward	Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunt'n
Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thomson	Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)	Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts)
Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)	Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)	Williams, Rt. Hn. J. Powell- (Birm
Roche, John	Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow	Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.	Wills, Sir Frederick
Round, Rt. Hon. James	Stroyan, John	Wilson, A. S. (York, E. R.)
Royds, Clement Molyneux	Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley	Wilson John (Glasgow)
Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford	Sturt, Hn. Humphrey Napier	Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks.)
Sadler, Col. Saml. Alexander	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)	Worsley-Taylor, Hry. Wilson
Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)	Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)	Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles	Thornton, Percy M.	Young, Samuel
Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert	Tritton, Charles Ernest
Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln	Ure, Alexander
Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew	Valentia, Viscount	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Simeon, Sir Barrington	Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)	Sir Alexander Acland-
Sinclair, Louis (Romford)	Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir W. H.	Hood and Mr. Fellowes.
Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)	Wanklyn, James Leslie
Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.	Warde, Colonel C. E.
NOES.
Asher, Alexander	Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.	Russell, T. W.
Ashton, Thomas Gair	Furness, Sir Christopher	Samuel, Herbt. L. (Cleveland)
Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbt. Hy.	Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick	Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Barran, Rowland Hirst	Harmsworth, R. Leicester	Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.	Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas Seale	Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (Northants
Black, Alexander William	Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.	Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Brand, Hon. Arthur G.	Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristl, E.	Tennant, Harold John
Brown, Geo. M. (Edinburgh)	Horniman, Frederick John	Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, E.)
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James	Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.	Thomas, Sir A. (Glam., E.)
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn	Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea)	Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)
Burt, Thomas	Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)	Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)
Buxton, Sydney Charles	Langley, Batty	Toulmin, George
Caldwell, James	Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)	Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Cameron, Robert	Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington)	Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Leigh, Sir Joseph	Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasg.	Leng, Sir John	Wason, E. (Clackmannan)
Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark	M'Crae, George	Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney
Crooks, William	Mappin, Sir Fredk. Thorpe	Weir, James Galloway
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)	Markham, Arthur Basil	White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardign	Mellor, Rt. Hn. John William	Whiteley, G. (York, W. R.)
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)	Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)	Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Duncan, J. Hastings	Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose	Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Dunn, Sir William	O'Shaughnessy, P. J.	Wilson, Chas. H. (Hull, W.)
Edwards, Frank	Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham	Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Elibank, Master of	Partington, Oswald	Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf'd
Ellis, John Edward	Paulton, James Mellor	Yoxall, James Henry
Emmott, Alfred	Philipps, John Wynford
Evans, Sir F. H. (Maidstone)	Pirie, Duncan V.
Evans, Saml. T. (Glamorgan)	Price, Robert John	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Farquharson, Dr. Robert	Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries)	Mr. Crombie and Mr.
Fenwick, Charles	Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)	Wallace.
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith	Robson, William Snowdon

SIR ROBERT REID

moved as an Amendment— Clause 2, page 1, line 13, after 'royal,' insert 'or.' The purport of his Amendment was to preserve to Royal and Parliamentary burghs the same powers in regard to licences which they now enjoyed. All the Royal burghs in Scotland had, from the earliest times since licensing was known, had the privilege of their own magistrates being the licensing authority. The Bill proposed that that privilege should be entirely destroyed in burghs with less than 7,000 of population. The Lord Advocate had an Amendment on the Paper to substitute 4,000 for 7,000, but he thought the law should remain as it had always been. The fact that it had always been so, might fairly be urged as a reason for continuing it, unless there was a substantial or fair-reasoned ground against the continuance. Could it be shown that these powers had been abused in the Royal burghs? He did not understand that that was so. The only observation which the Lord Advocate had, in the Committee upstairs, made against his proposal was, that it was supported by hon. Members who had some of these burghs in their constituencies. To make an observation of that kind was to strike at the root of all representative government. He could say for his own constituency that he had never heard of any suggestion of any impropriety being committed by the magistrates in any of these burghs, nor had he ever heard of any gentleman who had made such a complaint. He had been subjected to no pressure in this matter; in fact, he had had only one communication from his constituency. He said deliberately that if a case could be made out that these powers had been abused in the past, or were likely to be abused in the future, he would not vote to maintain things as they were. He attached to his argument another consideration. He believed in small licensing districts; they were, he contended, most effective; for in great districts they required to depend on inspectors and the like.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 1, line 13, after the word 'royal,' to insert the word 'or:"—(Sir Robert Reid.)

Question put, "That the word 'or' be there inserted in the Bill."

The EARL OF DALKEITH (Roxburgh)

said he hoped the Lord Advocate would give a more favourable consideration to this Amendment than to the last. There was a great difference between now and when the matter was discussed in Committee upstairs. At that time there was a provision restricting licensing Courts to burghs containing a population of, or exceeding, 7,000, but the Lord Advocate had put down an Amendment changing 7,000 to 4,000. Why the right hon. Gentleman arrived at that particular figure he did not know. He quite admitted that there might be some reason against continuing the powers to very small burghs. He certainly would prefer the Amendment of his hon. and learned friend; but if the Lord Advocate could not accept that, he hoped he would be able to accept another Amendment.

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said he hoped that they had now arrived at the end of a very long discussion. The hon. and learned Member who moved the Amendment knew very well that the scheme of the Bill, as introduced, was to have licensing districts of a certain acknowledged size. He was entirely against the hon. and learned Member in his preference for small licensing districts. He did not think that anything was to be gained by having them. If there was to be any change, he thought the Government would sympathise more with the Amendment of the hon. Member for Leith Burghs raising the standard, rather than with the Amendment of the hon. and learned Member. They, however, thought that, having regard to the circumstances of the country, that would be going too far. They selected a population basis of 7,000 because that figure had been already employed in various other departments of local government. He would remind the hon. and learned Member that although population was a fair test of the size of a town, it was no test as regarded the size of a country district, because where there was a sparse population there might be a great extent of country. He himself preferred the original proposal in the Bill; but a great deal of pressure from hon. Members on both sides of the House was brought to bear on the Government to give at least some consideration to these ancient burghs which had had in the past a licensing authority. He congratulated the hon. and learned Member for Dumfries on the fact that the discussion upstairs and in the House had developed in him a latent conservatism which at some future date might be of great service to the country at large. He had most carefully considered the matter; and the Amendment which stood in his name represented the whole length he was able to go on behalf of the Government. In the case of Royal and Parliamentary burghs he was prepared to reduce the limit to 4,000; and beyond that he really could not go. He was against the hon. and learned Member in his predilection for small areas. He would not say anything about corruption; but the statistics as to the number of licences granted in small areas certainly threw a doubt as to whether it was not better to have larger areas, and consequently a larger amount of public opinion.

SIR ROBERT REID

said that according to the representations which he had received it was the county magistrates that prevented the smaller burghs reducing the number of public houses in their areas.

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said that was a matter of individual fact on which he could not, at the moment, give an answer one way or the other. It was not only his opinion, but the opinion of many others, that they would secure a better policy by having larger areas. The determination of the Government must be taken to be the Amendment which stood in his name, which proposed to retain the 7,000 limit as regarded burghs in general while reducing it in the case of Royal and Parliamentary burghs to 4,000.

MR. ASHER (Elgin Burghs)

said he would support the Amendment of his hon. and learned friend. No doubt the Amendment raised a question of considerable principle. The Lord Advocate had announced that he was prepared to reduce the limit in the case of Royal and Parliamentary burghs to 4,000; and he tendered his thanks for that. But the Amendment raised the general question as to whether there should be any population limit at all in regard to licensing. He supported the Amendment because, in his opinion, population had nothing to do with the matter. The proper test was whether a community, existing as a unit of local administration, with the power of regulating its own affairs in regard to local matters such as taxation, water supply, gas and everything connected with the social affairs of the community, should be deprived of the power of regulating the number of public houses in its own area. He had heard no intelligible reason assigned as to why such a community should or should not have that power according to a population basis. If experience had shown that these communities had abused their power, that would be an excellent reason for withdrawing it from them; but it was conceded on all hands that nothing could be said against the manner in which they had exercised their power in the past. The proposal was a mere arbitrary rule. It was said that for the administration of the Contagious Diseases Acts and the police, large areas were found to be more convenient; but that did not apply in the matter of licences. The question was whether an outside authority should be brought in for the purpose of controlling the number of licensed houses in a particular burgh. Burghs which existed as units of administration should be allowed to control the matter in the future as in the past.

SIR MARK STEWART

said that in his county there were several Royal burghs; and his experience of many years on the licensing bench was that they were anxious to keep at a fair limit the public houses within their precincts. Very often when the burgh magistrates refused to renew licences, they were afterwards granted by the county magistrates. Therefore, it was hardly fair that burghs which did their duty in the past should have their privileges taken away from them. He hoped the Lord Advocate had not said the last word in the matter. He would suggest to his hon. and learned friend to withdraw his Amendment, and to bring the matter to an issue on the Lord Advocate's Amendment.

MR. MUNRO FERGUSON

said he was in favour of large areas, not because he impugned for a moment the purity of past administration on the part of smaller burghs, but because he wanted to clear the way for the abolition of the Appeal Courts, which were worse than useless. Again, if they had to give compensation, and that was a thing the House would have shortly to consider, it was much easier to deal with a large area than a small one. These were all very important conditions, because they must remember that the value of licences had grown considerably during the last ten years.

SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN

said the view he took was that the consideration which ought to govern them in this matter was whether there was an adequate local knowledge of the circumstances and requirements of the burgh on the part of those who administered the licensing law. In all these small burghs the justices and town councils had complete control of all the public houses. They were going to take this particular department of licensing away from them, and he did not know why. They were to be superseded by some authority some considerable distance away, who had no adequate knowledge of the wishes and requirements of the inhabitants. For his part he would leave the whole of these licensing burghs the powers they possessed. He did not rest his argument on the question of dignity, though that ground might be very well be taken. Something was due, for instance, to such a small burgh as Culross, which was in his charge. It would not be difficult to make a very plausible argument in favour of Culross as having more largely affected the prosperity and influence of Scotland than any other place. What had given Scotland the advantage she possessed over the southern country. Some said it was her education, but really it had been the food. It was well-known that oatmeal produced strong, stalwart and intelligent men, and the Scotch lived upon oatmeal, and for many years the staple industry of Culross was the making of girdles, which he might explain had no relation whatever to the goddess Venus, and were no part of a lady's attire, but were those round iron plates which were used for toasting oaten cakes upon. Yet the Lord Advocate was going to take away from this ancient burgh the little power it had to control its own liquor traffic, He did not, however, take that ground; he went upon the other ground altogether of local knowledge and local interest. He thought it was unfortunate to take away from these little burghs the local powers they had never misused, and he did not see that anybody could be benefited by its being done.

MR. ASQUITH

said he was also bound to join in this appeal. The county of Fife, as was well known, had a larger number of Royal burghs than any other county in Scotland. They were mostly represented by an hon. Member whom he saw sitting opposite. The small residue he represented himself. He did not think they had to apologise in any way for putting forward the case of those burghs, which by this Bill were going to be deprived of the powers they had enjoyed for so many years, and which they had never misused. It had never been argued for a moment that they had ever misused their powers, and he thought this clause was utterly illogical and from the point of view of administration totally incomprehensible, because while they retained to these burghs administrative powers in every other case they took away from them the power of licensing, a power in which local knowledge was absolutely requisite. He looked upon this as a most retrograde step.

SIR J. FERGUSSON

said the chief argument for not leaving the licensing question in the hands of these smaller burghs was that they would be carried out by larger and more responsible bodies less subject to local influence.

CAPTAIN SINCLAIR

could not see any reason for drawing a distinction between Royal and other burghs in this matter. Population was a wrong basis to go upon; it was continually changing, and whether it was a hundred or so below or above a certain limit could make no radical difference in the quality of the administration. The effect of the clause would be to deprive self-governing communities of popular rights and privileges which they now enjoyed. If the Bill really secured popular representative control of licensing he would not press his objection so strongly, but many communities which at present had control of their streets, gas, and water, and possessed police Courts in which convictions for licensing offences could be secured, would be unable to grant licences, and that did not appear to be a logical position. The people resident in police burghs were not distinguishable from those in Royal or Parliamentary burghs, and this curtailment of popular rights and privileges was a retrograde step against which he desired to enter a strong protest.

Mr. EUGENE WASON (Clackmannan and Kinross)

supported the Amendment, and contended that it would be a great hardship to take away privileges which had been so long enjoyed. Any concession made to the Royal and Parliamentary burghs ought equally to be made in the case of police burghs.

MR. BUCHANAN

said that, while the Amendment he had placed on the Paper was more logical than the one under discussion, inasmuch as it really rested on a principle, yet he should certainly support his hon. and learned friend. Everything possible ought to be done to promote the independence of burghs, whether Royal or police. Not only was he opposed to the taking away of privileges which had been enjoyed and exercised without suggestion of misuse for so many years, but he was in favour of extending like powers to similar burghs throughout

Scotland. The best expression of democratic government was to be found in the burghs of Scotland, and more authority ought to be given instead of that at present possessed being taken away. He was in favour of the authorities being given the powers, and they then could be held responsible for the condition of their burghs.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 97, Noes, 226. (Division List No. 146.)

AYES.
Asher, Alexander	Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.	Pirie, Duncan V.
Ashton, Thomas Gair	Furness, Sir Christopher	Price, Robert John
Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbt. Hy.	Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J.	Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Baldwin, Alfred	Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nrn	Robson, William Snowdon
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey	Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick	Russell, T. W.
Barran, Rowland Hirst	Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.	Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.	Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Black, Alexander William	Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tyd	Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Bolton, Thomas Dolling	Harmsworth, R. Leicester	Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart
Brand, Hon. Arthur G.	Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-	Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Brigg, John	Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.	Thomas, Sir A. (Glam., E.)
Brown, Geo. M. (Edinburgh)	Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristl, E.	Thomas, F. Freeman (Hastings)
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson	Horniman, Frederick John	Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn	Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.	Tomkinson, James
Burt, Thomas	Joicey, Sir James	Toulmin, George
Buxton, Sydney Charles	Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea	Ure, Alexander
Caldwell, James	Jones, W. (Carnarvonshire)	Wallace, Robert
Cameron, Robert	Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)	Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington)	Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasg.)	Leigh, Sir Joseph	Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan
Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)	Leng, Sir John	Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney)
Crooks William	Leveson-Gower, Fredk. N. S.	Weir, James Galloway
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)	Lloyd-George, David	White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardign	M'Arthur, William (Cornwall	Whiteley, G. (York, W. R.)
Duncan, J. Hastings	M'Crae, George	Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Dunn, Sir William	Mappin, Sir Fredk. Thorpe	Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Edwards, Frank	Markham, Arthur Basil	Wilson, Chas. H. (Hull, W.)
Elibank, Master of	Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H. E. (Wigt'n	Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf'd)
Ellis, John Edward	Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)	Yoxall, James Henry
Emmott, Alfred	Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose
Evans, Sir F. H. (Maidstone)	Palmer, Sir C. M. (Durham)	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Evans, Saml. T. (Glamorgan)	Partington, Oswald	Sir Robert Reid and Earl
Farquharson, Dr. Robert	Paulton, James Mellor	of Dalkeith
Fenwick, Charles	Philipps, John Wynford
NOES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte	Bartley, Sir George C. T.	Cayzer, Sir Charles William
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel	Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj.	Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Beckett, Ernest William	Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.	Bentinck, Lord Henry C.	Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc
Arrol, Sir William	Bigwood, James	Chapman, Edward
Atkinson, Right Hon. John	Bill, Charles	Churchill, Winston Spencer
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir H.	Blundell, Colonel Henry	Clive, Captain Percy A.
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy	Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-	Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.
Bailey, James (Walworth)	Bowles, Col. Henry F. (Midd'x)	Coddington, Sir William
Bain, Colonel James Robert	Brassey, Albert	Cohen, Benjamin Louis
Baird, John George Alexander	Bull, William James	Colston, Chas. Edw H. Athole
Balcarres, Lord	Burke, E. Haviland	Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Man'r	Butcher, John George	Cox, Irwin Edwd. Bainbridge
Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds)	Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.	Cranborne, Viscount
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch	Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)	Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton)
Banbury, Sir Frederick George	Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.	Crossley, Sir Savile
Cubitt, Hon. Henry	Kerr, John	Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine
Cullinan, J.	King, Sir Henry Seymour	Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge
Denny, Colonel	Knowles, Lees	Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thomson
Dickinson, Robert Edmond	Lambton, Hon. Fredk. Wm.	Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Dickson, Charles Scott	Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow	Robertson, H. (Hackney)
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-	Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool	Roche, John
Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph C.	Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N. R.	Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon	Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)	Round, Rt. Hon. James
Donelan, Captain A.	Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage	Royds, Clement Molyneux
Doogan, P. C.	Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.	Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford
Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir J. E.	Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine	Sadler, Col. Saml. Alexander
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers	Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham	Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)	Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.	Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles
Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Hart	Lonsdale, John Brownlee	Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas	Lowe, Francis William	Seely, Chas. Hilton (Lincoln)
Faber, George Denison (York)	Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)	Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)
Fardell, Sir T. George	Lowther, Rt. Hon. Jas. (Kent)	Simeon, Sir Barrington
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)	Loyd, Archie Kirkman	Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r	Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft	Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst	Lucas, Reg'ld J. (Portsmouth)	Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks.
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.	Macdona, John Cumming	Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne	M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)	Spear, John Ward
Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas	M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W.	Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)
Fisher, William Hayes	M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire)	Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
FitzGerald, Sir Robt. Penrose	M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)	Stirling-Maxwell, Sir Jn. M.
Flower, Ernest	Manners, Lord Cecil	Stroyan, John
Flynn, James Christopher	Martin, Richard Biddulph	Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Forster, Henry William	Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.	Sturt, Hn. Humphrey Napier
Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.	Mitchell, William (Burnley)	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Fyler, John Arthur	Molesworth, Sir Lewis	Tennant, Harold John
Galloway, William Johnson	Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)	Thornton, Percy M.
Gardner, Ernest	Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.)	Tollemache, Henry James
Garfit, William	Morrison, James Archibald	Tritton, Charles Ernest
Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond	Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer	Valentia, Viscount
Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans	Mount, William Arthur	Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Gore, Hn. G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop	Mowbray, Sir Robt. Gray C.	Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir W. H.
Gore, Hn. S. F. Ormsby- (Linc	Muntz, Sir Philip A.	Wanklyn, James Leslie
Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon	Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute	Warde, Colonel C. E.
Goschen, Hon. Geo. Joachim	Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)	Webb, Col. William George
Goulding, Edward Alfred	Myers, William Henry	Welby, Lt.-Col A. C. E. (Taunt'n
Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs	Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)	Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts)
Gretton, John	O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)	Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne)
Groves, James Grimble	O'Dowd, John	Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill	O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)	Williams, Rt. Hn. J. Powell- (Birm
Gunter, Sir Robert	Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.	Parkes, Ebenezer	Wills, Sir Frederick
Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Ld. G. (Midx	Pease, H. Pike (Darlington)	Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)
Hamilton, Marq. of (Londondy	Peel, Hn. Wm. R. Wellesley	Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Harris, Frederick Leverton	Pemberton, John S. G.	Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Hatch, Ernest Frederick G.	Percy, Earl	Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks.)
Hay, Hon. Claude George	Pilkington, Colonel Richard	Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley)	Platt-Higgins, Frederick	Worsley-Taylor, Hry. Wilson
Heath, James (Staffs., N. W.)	Plummer, Walter R.	Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart
Hogg, Lindsay	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp	Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry	Pretyman, Ernest George	Yerburgh, Robt. Armstrong
Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm	Purvis, Robert	Young, Samuel
Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred	Randles, John S.
Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton	Rasch, Major Frederic Carne	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Johnstone, Heywood	Rattigan, Sir William Henry	Sir Alexander Acland-
Kemp, Lieut.-Colonel George	Reid, James (Greenock)	Hood and Mr. Fellowes.
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop	Remnant, Jas. Farquharson

MR. EUGENE WASON

said that by his Amendment he was simply pleading for the same treatment to be meted out to the police burghs as to the Royal and Parliamentary burghs. Although the right hon. Gentleman had done something for the Royal and Parliamentary burghs, up to the present he had done nothing for the police burghs. There were forty-six Royal burghs, and ten of them would have the power they already possessed and would retain the privilege of being their own licensing authority. Of the police burghs exempted there were ninety-nine, and if his Amendment were carried it would give in addition twenty-four police burghs, or practically the very same for the police burghs which the Lord Advocate by his Amendment had given to the Royal and Parliamentary burghs. He had received a considerable number of letters on this subject and he would have liked to make the number much larger. As the Lord Advocate met them fairly upstairs he thought he would not be disposed to object to treating these burghs in the same way as the Royal and Parliamentary burghs.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 1, line 14, to leave out the word 'seven, and insert the word 'four.'—(Mr. Eugene Wason.)

Question proposed, "That the word 'seven' stand part of the Bill."

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said his intention, and the intention of the Bill, certainly was to make no distinction, and accordingly they made the number of 7,000 apply to both. As he had already explained in reply to the very widely expressed wish that he should give something to the old vested interest in burghs that had licensing authorities in the old days, he had given way in that case. Police burghs had no rights in the old days.

MR. BLACK (Banffshire)

said he should support the Amendment of his hon. friend. He wished to point out to the Lord Advocate that in the case of county districts he had already accepted an Amendment reducing the number considerably below seven.

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said he had stated many times that he had not accepted that Amendment.

MR. BLACK

asked if it was the proposal of the Government to reverse that Amendment?

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

replied that the proposals of the Government were on the Paper.

MR. BLACK

said that in that case the Bill stood as amended, and the proposal was to allow county districts and Royal burghs this privilege and to exclude police burghs. This was not reasonable, and he hoped his hon. friend would press his Amendment to a division.

MR. PARKER SMITH

said there would be very considerable feeling upon this point on the part of the smaller burghs if they were left out. If the Lord Advocate was willing to reduce to 5,000 to a limited number he thought it would go a very long way towards meeting the views of those burghs.

*MR. MCCRAE

said he hoped the Lord Advocate would favourably receive this Amendment. He had great respect for the Royal burghs, but for administrative purposes he did not see why they should have a population of 4,000 and police or Parliamentary burghs should be excluded unless they had a population of 7,000. For the sake of uniformity he thought the proper course to take was to make the number 4,000 for all burghs.

MR. CROMBIE

said he had an Amendment on the Paper which raised this question, but if this Amendment were carried he would probably be out of order in moving it. Unlike many of his hon. friends, he was not so favourable to small constituencies, but he thought it was most invidious to make a distinction in this matter. Many of these smaller constituencies were quite as important as Royal burghs, and quite as capable of having a licensing authority as any Royal burgh of the same size.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 220; Noes, 95. (Division List, No. 147.)

AYES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte	Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.	Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel	Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy	Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Bailey, James (Walworth)	Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch
Anstruther, H. T.	Bain, Colonel James Robert	Banbury, Sir Frederick George
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.	Baird, John George Alexander	Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj.
Arrol, Sir William	Balcarres, Lord	Beckett, Ernest William
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John	Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Man'r	Bentinck, Lord Henry C.
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.	Gunter, Sir Robert	Percy, Earl
Bigwood, James	Guthrie, Walter Murray	Pilkington, Colonel Richard
Blundell, Colonel Henry	Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.	Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith	Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Ld. G. (Midx.	Plummer, Walter R.
Brassey, Albert	Hamilton, Marq. of (Londondy	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Bull, William James	Harris, Frederick Leverton	Pretyman, Ernest George
Burke, E. Haviland	Hatch, Ernest Frederick G.	Purvis, Robert
Butcher, John George	Hay, Hon. Claude George	Randles, John S.
Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasg.)	Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley)	Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.	Heath, James (Staffs., N. W.)	Rattigan, Sir William Henry
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)	Hogg, Lindsay	Redmond, Jn. E. (Waterford)
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)	Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry	Reid, James (Greenock)
Cayzer, Sir Charles William	Howard, Jno (Kent, Faver'hm	Remnant Jas. Farquharson
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)	Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred	Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)	Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton	Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thomson
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc	Kemp, Lieut.-Colonel George	Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Chapman, Edward	Kenyon Slaney, Col. W. (Salop	Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Clive, Captain Percy A.	Kerr, John	Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E.	King, Sir Henry Seymour	Round, Rt. Hon. James
Coddington, Sir William	Knowles, Lees	Royds, Clement Molyneux
Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Lambton, Hon. Fredk. Wm.	Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford
Colston, Chas. Edw H. Athole	Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow	Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas	Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool	Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasg.)	Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N. R.	Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge	Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)	Sharpe, William Edward T.
Cranborne, Viscount	Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage	Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)
Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton)	Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.	Simeon, Sir Barrington
Crossley, Sir Savile	Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.	Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Cubitt, Hon. Henry	Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine	Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)
Denny, Colonel	Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham	Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)
Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tr. Haml'ts	Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.	Spear, John Ward
Dickinson, Robert Edmond	Lonsdale, John Brownlee	Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset)
Dickson, Charles Scott	Lowe, Francis William	Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-	Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)	Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart
Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Jos. C.	Lowther, Rt. Hon. Jas. (Kent)	Stirling-Maxwell, Sir Jn. M.
Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon	Loyd, Archie Kirkman	Stroyan, John
Doogan, P. C.	Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft	Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir J. E.	Lucas, Reg'ld J. (Portsmouth)	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers	Macdona, John Cumming	Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Duke, Henry Edward	M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)	Thornton, Percy M.
Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart	M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W.	Tollemache, Henry James
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas	M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire)	Tritton, Charles Ernest
Faber, George Denison (York)	M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)	Ure, Alexander
Fardell, Sir T. George	Malcolm, Ian	Valentia, Viscount
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith	Manners, Lord Cecil	Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Man'r	Martin, Richard Biddulph	Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir W. H.
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst	Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H. E. (Wigt'n	Wanklyn, James Leslie
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.	Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.	Warde, Colonel C. E.
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne	Mitchell, William (Burnley)	Webb, Col. William George
Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas	Molesworth, Sir Lewis	Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton
Fisher, William Hayes	Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)	Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts)
FitzGerald, Sir Robt. Penrose	Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.)	Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne)
Flower, Ernest	Morrison, James Archibald	Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Forster, Henry William	Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S. W.	Mount, William Arthur	Wills, Sir Frederick
Fyler, John Arthur	Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.	Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Galloway, William Johnson	Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute	Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Gardner, Ernest	Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)	Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks.)
Garfit, William	Myers, William Henry	Wolff Gustav Wilhelm
Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.	Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.	Worsley-Taylor, Hry. Wilson
Gore, Hn. G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop	O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)	Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart
Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- (Lincs.	O'Dowd, John	Yerburgh, Robt. Armstrong
Goschen, Hon. Geo. Joachim	O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)	Young, Samuel
Goulding, Edward Alfred	Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs	Parkes, Ebenezer	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Gretton, John	Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n	Sir Alexander Acland-
Groves, James Grimble	Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley	Hood and Mr. Fellowes.
Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill	Pemberton, John S. G.
NOES.
Allen, Chas. P. (Glos., Stroud)	Brand, Hon. Arthur G.	Bryce, Right Hon. James
Asher, Alexander	Brigg, John	Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn
Barran, Rowland Hirst	Brown, Geo. M. (Edinburgh)	Burt, Thomas
Bolton, Thomas Dolling	Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson	Buxton, Sydney Charles

Caldwell, James	Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristl, E.	Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Cameron, Robert	Horniman, Frederick John	Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.	Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks.)
Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark	Joicey, Sir James	Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Crombie, John William	Jones, David B. (Swansea)	Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Crooks, William	Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)	Tennant, Harold John
Dalkeith, Earl of	Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)	Thomas, Sir A. (Glam., E.)
Dalziel, James Henry	Layland-Barratt, Francis	Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)	Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington)	Thomas, F. Freeman (Hastings)
Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardig'n	Leigh, Sir Joseph	Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)	Leng, Sir John	Tomkinson, James
Duncan, J. Hastings	Lewis, John Herbert	Toulmin, George
Dunn, Sir William	Lloyd-George, David	Wallace, Robert
Edwards, Frank	M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)	Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Elibank, Master of	M'Crae, George	Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney)
Ellis, John Edward	Mappin, Sir Fredk. Thorpe	Weir, James Galloway
Emmott, Alfred	Markham, Arthur Basil	White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Evans, Saml. T. (Glamorgan)	Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)	Whiteley, G. (York, W. R.)
Farquharson, Dr. Robert	Newnes, Sir George	Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Fenwick, Charles	Palmer Sir C. M. (Durham)	Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.	Partington, Oswald	Wilson, Chas. H. (Hull, W.)
Furness, Sir Christopher	Philipps, John Wynford	Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf'd
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J.	Pirie, Duncan V.	Yoxall, James Henry
Gordon, Hon. J. E. (Elgin & Nrn	Price, Robert John
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries)
Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.	Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tyd	Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)	Mr. Eugene Wason and
Harmsworth, R. Leicester	Robson, William Snowdon	Mr. Black.
Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-	Russell, T. W.
Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.	Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland

Question put, and agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 1, line 14, after the word 'thousand,' to insert the words 'and for each burgh containing a population under 7,000, but of or exceeding 4,000, the magistrates of which have power to grant certificates under the existing Acts.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

MR. ASHER

moved to amend the Amendment by inserting words with the object of meeting the case of burghs the population of which, at the date of the last census, was under 4,000, but which had surpassed 4,000 between that date and the date of the passing of the Act. In the case of burghs of 7,000 population, the point had been met by the second Schedule of the Act, but there was no opportunity of getting towns whose population had grown over 4,000 since the date of the last census, put in the same position. He made this Motion specially with reference to the Royal burgh of Inverurie, with the case of which, he thought, the Lord Advocate was familiar. Of late there had been very large railway works introduced there, which had largely increased the population, and there was no doubt the population was now nearer 5,000.

Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment to the Bill— In line 2, after the word 'containing' to insert the words 'at the date of the passing of this Act as proved to the satisfaction of the Secretary for Scotland,'"—(Mr. Asher.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment to the Bill."

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said he hoped the hon. and learned Member would not press his Amendment. He promised that in another place appropriate words would be inserted.

Amendment to the proposed Amendment to the Bill, by leave, withdrawn.

THE EARL of DALKEITH (Roxburgh)

moved— In lines 2 and 3, leave out 'four thousand,' and insert 'two thousand.' He said that in his own constituency there were two burghs with a population of respectively 3,000 and 3,200 which had at present a licensing authority, but which would be deprived of it under the clause. On the other hand there was a small district with a population of 1,800 which had never had a separate licensing authority, but would under the clause receive one. He thought that that really showed how very absurd these regulations were. He appealed to the right hon. and learned Gentleman to accept this Amendment. A considerable number of the towns which were being disfranchised, so far as licensing was concerned, were county towns, and more consideration should be given to them than had been done in the Bill.

Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment to the Bill— In line 3, to leave out the word 'four' and insert the word 'two.'"—(Earl of Dalkeith.)

Question proposed, "That the word 'four' stand part of the proposed Amendment to the Bill."

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said he was sorry that it was not possible for him to go any further than he had done. In answer to his noble friend as to country districts receiving a licensing authority which had never had one before, he would point out that the Bill only stated that the County Councils might give a separate licensing authority to a district if they wished.

SIR ROBERT REID

said that they did not want to obstruct the Bill, of course, but the position was this—a right which had existed for 400 years was taken away from these burghs, whereas the same right was being conferred on the population of 1,800 which had never had the right before, and which had no separate or corporate existence at all. There had been no argument on public grounds in favour of this being done, and he thought it was a revolting thing to do. He recommended the noble Lord to advise his friends in the Royal burghs that they were not likely to get justice from a Conservative Government in this matter, and that the only chance they had was to appeal to the House of Lords.

Proposed words there inserted in the Bill.

MR. CHARLES DOUGLAS (Lanarkshire, N.W.)

said that the declared policy of the Bill in respect to the country districts was that the County Council was to select and employ bodies for the purpose of administering licensing in the various districts. But no one would pretend that the magistrates in large towns were selected for the purpose of licensing. They became magistrates very largely by seniority in the Town Councils, and the question of their fitness for the duties of a licensing bench was not considered. He rather gathered that the Lord Advocate had been infected by his colleagues with the doctrine that the best way to get a thing done was to appoint a body for another purpose, and then hand over a new duty to it. At all events that was what was done under the present system. The magistrates were not necessarily the best qualified people, and, as a matter of fact, there were cases in which magistrates were actually legally disqualified for discharging the duty of a licensing authority. Cases had occurred in some small burghs in which there were only one or two magistrates who were not disqualified. The present system was not administratively good, and that was quite recognised by the magistrates themselves, for the proposed modification of it had the approval of the magistrates in large towns. Sometimes there was a wholly new bench of magistrates called upon to deal with licensing problems, who had had no previous experience of licensing work. Further, as from the nature of the case the magistrates knew that they would not have to deal with licensing business on more than two or three occasions, it was not to be expected that they would specially prepare themselves for dealing with these technical questions. If the work of licensing was to be efficiently done, it was desirable there should be greater continuity of administration, and a more permanent tribunal. An attempt had been made to do that in the Committee upstairs, and, for his part, if the Lord Advocate had been prepared to abide by the decision of the Committee to retain a certain proportion of the old magistrates, in addition to the existing magistrates, he would have been prepared to accept that as a compromise. The Committee upstairs did not adopt the plan he was now suggesting to the House, in view of its opinion that the object could be achieved by the Amendment made in the Bill, and which the Lord Advocate now proposed to delete. If the Lord Advocate insisted on restoring the Bill to its original condition, he would feel bound to press his Amendment, which he now moved.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 1, line 15, to leave out from the words 'consisting of,' to the word 'Provided,' in line 18, and insert the words 'a committee appointed by the town council from their own number in accordance with the scale contained in the first schedule annexed hereto.'"—(Mr. Charles Douglas) instead thereof.

Question proposed "That the words proposed to be left out to the word 'and' in line 16, stand part of the Bill."

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said that the Amendment would turn the scheme of the Bill upside down; and he did not suppose that the hon. Member would think for a moment that he was going to accept it.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 1, line 16, to leave out from the word 'being' to end of clause." — (The Lord Advocate.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

MR. PARKER SMITH

said he regretted much that the Lord Advocate had moved this Amendment deleting the portion of the clause which had been carried by a considerable majority of the Committee upstairs. What they wanted was the power of putting persons on the licensing authority who had had experience as magistrates, and who were still members of the town council. He thought that there was very serious danger of there being a lack of continuity of policy from the want of magistrates of experience, especially in smaller burghs. It was said it might lead to faddists coming in, but it would be far more likely to result in the man who had experience coming in, and who, through his experience had got rid of his fads. He was sorry the Lord Advocate proposed to go against this proposal, which generally received the support of the Committee, and he hoped some explanation of the reason would be given to the House.

Question put, and negatived.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. CHARLES DOUGLAS

said the object of the Amendment he now proposed to move was to give the whole control of licences in counties to County Councils, unhindered by the justices, exactly as it was given in towns to town councils and the magistrates. They had had no explanation from the Lord Advocate of the reason why justices were retained. The right hon. Gentleman had not suggested that the work would be better done by retaining them. They were taking a great part of the licensing out of the justices' hands because they thought those gentlemen had not done their work properly, and that being so he thought it would be more reasonable to transfer the licensing, so far as the counties were concerned, bodily to the County Councils. They had taken away from a number of the small burghs the control of their licensing, and he had supported the right hon. Gentleman in that policy because he believed in enlarging the licensing areas. But it would be a very serious thing to take this licensing away from small burghs and hand it over to those who were neither representative of the interests of the County Councils nor the burghs. He begged to move.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 2, line 25, to leave out the words 'one half of.'"—(Mr. Charles Douglas.)

Question proposed, "That the words 'one half of' stand part of the Bill."

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said many would remember that as the Bill originally stood the proportions were two-thirds and one-third. As a concession he agreed to one half in order that there should be an equal number. The simple answer to this Amendment was that the Government were not prepared to go the length the hon. Member desired. The Bill itself represented a compromise, and to that compromise he meant to stick.

MR. DALZIEL (Kirkcaldy Burghs)

said he hoped the hon. Member would not be satisfied with the explanation of the Lord Advocate. He supported the hon. Member in this because he thought justices of the peace could get elected to the County Councils if they were the representative body they were said to be. The object of the Government ought to be to make this licensing body as representative as possible.

MR. BLACK

said the Lord Advocate had hardly discharged the onus which rested upon him in this this matter. The justices were chosen as the licensing authority in 1828 because in the towns the town councils which were elective bodies were given the right to elect the magistrates for this purpose. In the country there

was no such elective body, and accordingly the legislature had no alternative but to nominate the only body existing, which was the justices of the peace. To day they had County Councils which were fully representative bodies qualified to exercise the same powers as the town councils or the burghs, why then should any distinction be drawn? Why should they not give the County Councils the same rights as those exercised by the burghs?

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 217; Noes, 86. (Division List No. 148.)

AYES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte	Cullinan, J.	Hambro, Charles Eric
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel	Cust, Henry John C.	Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Ld. G. (Mid'x
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Dalkeith, Earl of	Hamilton, Marq. of (Londondy
Anstruther, H. T.	Denny, Colonel	Harris, Frederick Leverton
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.	Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)	Hatch, Ernest Frederick G.
Arrol, Sir William	Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tr. Haml'ts	Hay, Hon. Claude George
Atkinson, Right Hon. John	Dickinson, Robert Edmond	Heath, James (Staffs., N. W.)
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir H.	Dickson, Charles Scott	Hogg, Lindsay
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy	Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-	Howard, Jno (Kent, Faver'hm
Bain, Colonel James Robert	Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Joseph C.	Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred
Baird, John George Alexander	Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon	Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton
Balcarres, Lord	Doogan, P. C.	Kemp, Lieut.-Colonel George
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Man'r.	Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir J. E.	Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)	Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers	Kerr, John
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds	Duke, Henry Edward	Keswick, William
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch	Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Hart	Kilbride, Denis
Banbury, Sir Frederick George	Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas	King, Sir Henry Seymour
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj.	Faber, George Denison (York)	Knowles, Lees
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.	Fardell, Sir T. George	Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)
Bigwood, James	Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r	Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N. R.
Blundell, Colonel Henry	Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst	Lees, Sir Elliot (Birkenhead)
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-	Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.	Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage
Brassy, Albert	Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne	Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John	Fisher, William Hayes	Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.
Bull, William James	FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-	Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Butcher, John George	Flavin, Michael Joseph	Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham
Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasg.)	Flower, Ernest	Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.	Flynn, James Christopher	Lowe, Francis William
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)	Forster Henry William	Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire	Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.	Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Cayzer, Sir Charles William	Fyler, John Arthur	Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)	Galloway, William Johnson	Lucas, Reg'ld J. (Portsmouth)
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)	Gardner, Ernest	Macdona, John Cumming
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc	Garfit, William	M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinb'rgh W.
Chapman, Edward	Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick	M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire)
Clive, Captain Percy A.	Gordon Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn	M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)
Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E.	Gore, Hn. G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop	Manners, Lord Cecil
Coddington, Sir William	Gore, Hn. S. F. Ormsby- (Linc	Martin, Richard Biddulph
Coghill, Douglas Harry	Goschen, Hon. George Joachim	Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.
Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Goulding, Edward Alfred	Mitchell, William (Burnley)
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole	Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs	Molesworth, Sir Lewis
Condon, Thomas Joseph	Gretton, John	Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas	Greville, Hon. Ronald	Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasg.)	Groves, James Grimble	Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.)
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge	Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill	Morrell, George Herbert
Cranborne, Viscount	Gunter, Sir Robert	Morrison, James Archibald
Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton)	Guthrie, Walter Murray	Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile	Hall, Edward Marshall	Mount, William Arthur
Cubitt, Hon. Henry	Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.	Mowbray, Sir Robt. Gray C.
Muntz, Sir Philip A.	Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson	Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham) Bute	Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)	Tollemache, Henry James
Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)	Robertson, H. (Hackney)	Tritton, Charles Ernest
Myers, William Henry	Rolleston, Sir John F. L.	Valantia, Viscount
Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.	Round, Rt. Hon. James	Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir W. H.
O'Dowd, John	Royds, Clement Molyneux	Wanklyn, James Leslie
O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)	Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-	Warde, Colonel C. E.
Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay	Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander	Webb, Col. William George
Pease, H. Pike (Darlington)	Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)	Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton
Peel, Hn. Wm. E. Wellesley	Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert	Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts)
Penn, John	Sharpe, William Edward T.	Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne)
Percy, Earl	Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Platt-Higgins, Frederick	Simeon, Sir Barrington	Wills, Sir Frederick
Plummer, Walter R.	Sinclair, Louis (Romford)	Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp	Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)	Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Pretyman, Ernest George	Spear, John Ward	Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
Purvis, Robert	Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)	Wolff, Gustay Wilhelm
Randles, John S.	Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)	Worsley-Taylor, Hry. Wilson
Ratcliff, R. F.	Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart	Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
Rattigan, Sir William Henry	Stirling-Maxwell, Sir Jn. M.	Young, Samuel
Redmond, Jn. E. (Waterford)	Stone, Sir Benjamin
Reid, James (Greenock)	Stroyan, John	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Remnant, Jas. Farquharson	Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley	Sir Alexander Acland-
Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)	Hood and Mr. Fellowes.
Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge)	Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ
NOES.
Allen, Chas. P. (Glos., Stroud)	Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.	Robson, William Snowdon
Asher, Alexander	Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J.	Russell, T. W.
Barran, Rowland Hirst	Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.	Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tyd	Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford)
Bolton, Thomas Dolling	Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale	Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Brigg, John	Hayter, Rt. Hon Sir Arthur D.	Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Brown, Geo. M. (Edinburgh)	Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.	Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson	Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)	Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, E.)
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James	Horniman, Frederick John	Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn	Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.	Thomas, D'avid Alfred (Merthyr
Burns, John	Joicey, Sir James	Thomas, F. Freeman (Hastings)
Burt, Thomas	Jones, David B. (Swansea)	Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)
Caldwell, James	Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)	Tomkinson, James
Cameron, Robert	Langley, Batty	Toulmin, George
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)	Ure, Alexander
Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark	Layland-Barratt, Francis	Wallace, Robert
Cremer, William Randal	Leng, Sir John	Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Crombie, John William	Lewis, John Herbert	Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan
Crooks, William	M'Crae, George	Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Dalziel, James Henry	Markham, Arthur Basil	Weir, James Galloway
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)	Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)	White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardign	Moulton, John Fletcher	Whiteley, G. (York, W. R.)
Duncan, J. Hastings	Newnes, Sir George	Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Dunn, Sir William	O'Mara, James	Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Edwards, Frank	Partington, Oswald	Wilson, Chas. H. (Hull, W.)
Elibank, Master of	Philipps, John Wynford	Yoxall, James Henry
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan	Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard
Farquharson, Dr. Robert	Pirie, Duncan V.	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Fenwick, Charles	Price, Robert John	Mr. Charles Douglas and
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)	Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries)	Mr. Black.

MR. EUGENE WASON

said the object of his Amendment was to give some small concession to large populous burghs which had not the control of their own licensing. It was a very small matter, but it would be a boon to them because they had always hoped to be their own licensing authority.

Amendment proposed— In page 2, line 30, to leave out the words, 'the magistrates of which have power to grant certificates under the existing Acts.'"—(Mr. Eugene Wason.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill.'

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said this was really the old story over again. He could not give way any more. These concessions were made to the Royal burghs on account of the position they held.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 2, line 38, to leave out from beginning of line, to the word 'Provided,' in line 39, and insert the words, 'number of the Court without such addition as the population of the burgh bears to the population of the county or district excluding every such burgh.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF DALKEITH

said the reason he had put this Amendment down was that he considered it as only fair that these burghs should have their full number on the licensing authority. He could not see why it should be restricted to magistrates. It was only fair if there was not a sufficient number of magistrates that the number should be made up by councillors. He begged to move.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 2, line 30, after the word 'magistrates,' to insert the words, 'or councillors.'"—(The Earl of Dalkeith.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

MR. GRAHAM MURRAY

said if the burgh got its magisterial body it was all it was entitled to. He could not accept the Amendment.

Question put, and negatived.

MR. MUNRO FERGUSON

said in the discussion upstairs no very varied argument had been urged against the omission of the appeal Courts. His experience was that the licensing Courts of first instance did their work far better than the appeal Courts, and therefore he begged to move.

Amendment proposed to the Bill— In page 3, line 3, to leave out Clause 4."—(Mr. Munro Ferguson.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out to the words, 'one-half' in line 5, stand part of the Bill."

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

said this Amendment was to abolish the Court of appeal altogether. That was a proposition he was not prepared to accept and which he thought if accepted would not be at all advantageous to the licensing laws of Scotland. There were, he thought, very few matters in which it would be to the advantage of the public that there should be no appeal Court. The true value of an appeal Court in cases of this kind consisted not so much in the fact that a decision might be reversed, but in the fact that the Court below knew it could not do what it liked without its decisions being questioned. He would certainly object to the appeal Courts being taken out.

MR. ASHER

said that where a Court of first instance had to decide questions of law or of fact an appeal Court was a most valuable institution, but in this case what was proposed was an appeal Court to review the decisions of the licensing magistrates who, in exercising their discretion, had proceeded upon facts known to themselves, and of which there was no record whatever, the theory of the licensing Court being that it should consist of persons with local knowledge by which they should be guided in regard to the granting of licences. The decisions of such a body were to be reviewed by gentlemen from, perhaps, the other end of the county, who knew nothing whatever about the local circumstances of the particular place for which the licence was asked. While he had every admiration for an appeal Court under proper circumstances, it appeared to be perfectly absurd here.

MR. BLACK

, in supporting the Amendment, said the Lord Advocate was consistent in constantly appealing to what had been, but he had given no reason whatever for maintaining, in the altered circumstances, what had been. The strengthening of the Court of first instance had done away with whatever reason previously existed for the maintenance of a Court of appeal. Moreover, according to statistics, the Court of appeal had been falling in popularity in Scotland, inasmuch as while ten years ago there were 141 appeals there were now only half that number, representing about ½ per cent. of the cases disposed of even by the inferior Court of first instance.

MR. BRYCE (Aberdeen, S.)

expressed his surprise that more argument had not been adduced by the Lord Advocate in support of the clause. Many Members who were now present were not on the Standing Committee, and the House was entitled on a question of such importance to more than a perfunctory expression of opinion. He believed that the general trend of opinion in Scotland for some time past had been against the appeal Court. In saying that, he was not referring to the extreme section of the temperance party, but to the moderate and reasonable men who felt that some reform was needed, but who were anxious that the law should be administered with fairness and moderation. The balance of opinion among that class of the population was that the appeal Court was of little or no use. The appeals were described as being from knowledge to ignorance, from those who had a direct local interest to those who were indifferent, and if that were true, the House ought to have further reasons given in favour of the retention of this clause. The argument of the Lord Advocate that the primary licensing Court required to be kept in order by the possibility of its decisions being reversed was hardly applicable, as the Court of first instance really had a direct local responsibility, while the Court of appeal would not have the same responsibility. He believed that the balance of Scotch opinion was that no good had been derived from the existence of the appeal Court in times past, and that the present opportunity should be taken to get rid of it.

MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY

asked whether the right hon. Gentleman was really under the impression that the balance of Scotch opinion was against the existence of the confirmatory Court.

MR. BRYCE

believed it was in favour of throwing the whole responsibility on the Court of first instance, which was in the locality, knew the facts, and was

practically responsible to the people of the district. Opinion might differ in different parts of the country, but as far as he knew that was the feeling.

SIR CHARLES RENSHAW (Renfrew, W.)

protested against the view given by the right hon. Gentleman of opinion in Scotland with regard to the appear Court, and especially to the confirmatory Court. The latter had been a most valuable check on the licensing system, and there would be a feeling of deep regret throughout Scotland if the protection afforded by it were withdrawn.

MR. HUNTER CRAIG

said it was a notorious fact that all the larger burghs had felt it to be an injustice that justices hould be brought in from outside to overturn the decisions of the people on the spot.

SIR JAMES FERGUSSON

denied the accuracy of the view of the right hon. Gentleman opposite. It was true that great scandal had arisen in connection with canvassing, but that would be put right by the establishment of a properly constituted Court. The great advantage of a confirmatory Court was that it secured uniformity of procedure, which was not likely to be obtained if all the smaller licensing bodies acted independently.

MR. DALZIEL

regarded this clause as one of the blackest spots in the Bill. If the Government considered the authority they were setting up to be a proper authority, why should there be any appeal against their decision? A kind of House of Lords was being set up, and it would weaken both the Bill and the local authority.

MR. GROVES

, speaking as one possessing some knowledge of the subject, and a full share of common sense, said that this clause, so far from weakening the Bill, was one of its strong points, and was necessary if the measure was to work satisfactorily.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 217; Noes 76. (Division List No. 149.)

AYES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte	Anstruther, H. T.	Atkinson, Right Hon. John
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel	Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.	Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Arrol, Sir William	Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy
Bain, Colonel James Robert	Garfit, William	O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid)
Baird, John George Alexander	Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.	O'Dowd, John
Balcarres, Lord	Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nrn.	O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Man'r	Gore, Hr. G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop	Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey	Goschen, Hon. Geo. Joachim	Parkes, Ebenezer
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds	Goulding, Edward Alfred	Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington)
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch	Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs	Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley
Banbury, Sir Frederick George	Gretton, John	Penn, John
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj.	Greville, Hon. Ronald	Percy, Earl
Beach, Rt. Hon. Sir M. Hicks	Groves, James Grimble	Pilkington, Colonel Richard
Beckett, Ernest William	Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill	Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Bentinck, Lord Henry C.	Guthrie, Walter Murray	Plummer, Walter R.
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.	Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Bigwood, James	Hambro, Charles Eric	Pretyman, Ernest George
Blundell, Colonel Henry	Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry	Purvis, Robert
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-	Harris, Frederick Leverton	Randles John S.
Bowles, T. Gibson (Lynn Regis	Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.	Ratcliff, R. F.
Brassey, Albert	Hay, Hon. Claude George	Rattigan, Sir William Henry
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John	Heath, Arthur H. Hanley)	Reid, James (Greenock)
Bull, William James	Heath, James (Stafford, N. W.	Remnant, Jas. Farquharson
Butcher, John George	Helder, Augustus	Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine
Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow)	Hogg, Lindsay	Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)	Houston, Robert Paterson	Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.	Howard, Jno (Kent, Faver'hm	Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)	Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred	Robertson, H. (Hackney)
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)	Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton	Roche, John
Cayzer, Sir Charles William	Johnstone, Heywood	Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)	Kemp, Lieut.-Colonel George	Round, Rt. Hon. James
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)	Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop	Royds, Clement Molyneux
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Wor.	Kerr, John	Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Chapman, Edward	Keswick, William	Sadler, Col. Saml. Alexander
Churchill, Winston Spencer	King, Sir Henry Seymour	Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.	Lambton, Hon. Fredk. Wm.	Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Coddington, Sir William	Laurie, Lieut.-General	Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight
Coghill, Douglas Harry	Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow	Sharpe, William Edward T.
Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks., N. R.	Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew
Colston, Chas. Edw H. Athole	Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)	Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Condon, Thomas Joseph	Legge, Col. Hon, Heneage	Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas	Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.	Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasg.)	Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.	Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks.)
Cox, Irwin Edwd. Bainbridge	Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine	Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)
Cranborne, Viscount	Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham	Spear, John Ward
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)	Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.	Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile	Lowe, Francis William	Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart
Cubitt, Hon. Henry	Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)	Stirling-Maxwell, Sir Jn. M.
Cust, Henry John C.	Loyd, Archie Kirkman	Stone, Sir Benjamin
Dalkeith, Earl of	Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)	Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Denny, Colonel	Lucas, Reg'ld J. (Portsmouth)	Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.
Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)	Macdona, John Cumming	Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tr. Haml'ts	M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W.	Tollemache, Henry James
Dickson, Charles Scott	M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire)	Tritton, Charles Ernest
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-	M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)	Valentia, Viscount
Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Jos. C.	Manners, Lord Cecil	Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir W. H.
Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon	Martin, Richard Biddulph	Warde, Colonel C. E.
Doogan, P. C.	Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.	Webb, Col. William George
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers	Mitchell William (Burnley)	Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton
Duke, Henry Edward	Molesworth, Sir Lewis	Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts)
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas	Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)	Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne)
Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r	Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst	Moon, Edward Robert Pacy	Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.	Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow	Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne	Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.)	Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.
Fisher, William Hayes	Morrell, George Herbert	Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
FitzGerald, Sir Robt. Penrose-	Morrison, James Archibald	Worsley-Taylor, Hry. Wilson
Flavin, Michael Joseph	Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer	Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Flower, Ernest	Mount, William Arthur	Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Forster, Henry William	Mowbray, Sir Robt. Gray C.
Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.	Muntz, Sir Philip A.	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Fyler, John Arthur	Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute	Sir Alexander Acland-
Galloway, William Johnson	Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)	Hood and Mr. Fellowes.
Gardner, Ernest	Myers, William Henry
NOES.
Allen, Chas. P. (Glos., Stroud)	Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.	Bolton, Thomas Dolling
Asher, Alexander	Black, Alexander William	Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

Brigg, John	Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale	Smith, H. C. (Northum. Tyneside)
Brown, Geo. M. (Edinburgh)	Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D.	Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson	Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H.	Tennant, Harold John
Bryce, Right Hon. James	Horniman, Frederick John	Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, E.)
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn	Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.	Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Burns, John	Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea	Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)
Caldwell, James	Jones, Wm. (Carnarconshire)	Thomas, F. Freeman (Hastings)
Cameron, Robert	Langley, Batty	Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)
Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark	Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)	Toulmin, George
Cremer, William Randal	Layland-Barratt, Francis	Ure, Alexander
Crooks, William	Leng, Sir John	Wallace, Robert
Dalziel, James Henry	Lewis, John Herbert	Wason, E. (Clackmannan)
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)	Lough, Thomas	Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney
Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan	M'Crae, George	Weir, James Galloway
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)	M'Laren, Sir Charles Benj.	White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Duncan, J. Hastings	Mansfield, Horace Rendall	Whiteley, G. (York, W. R.)
Dunn, Sir William	Markham, Arthur Basil	Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Edwards, Frank	Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen	Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Elibank, Master of	Newnes, Sir George	Wilson, Chas. H. (Hull, W.)
Evans, Saml. T. (Glamorgan)	Partington, Oswald	Yoxall, James Henry
Farquharson, Dr. Robert	Philipps, John Wynford
Fenwick, Charles	Pirie, Duncan V.	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.	Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries)	Mr. Munro Ferguson and
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)	Mr. Crombie.
Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tyd	Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

And it being after half-past Seven of the clock, further consideration of the Bill, as amended, stood adjourned till this Evening's Sitting.