Commons Sitting of 13 July 1903

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.
UNOPPOSED PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  PRIVATE BILLS [LORDS] (STANDING ORDERS NOT PREVIOUSLY INQUIRED INTO COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, viz.:—Pentillie Estate Bill [Lords].
  Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time.

  PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS [LORDS] (STANDING ORDERS APPLICABLE THERETO COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders

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  which are applicable thereto have been complied with, viz.:—Tramways Orders Confirmation (No. 2) Bill [Lords].
  Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time To-morrow.

  PRIVATE BILLS [LORDS] (STANDING ORDERS NOT PREVIOUSLY INQUIRED INTO NOT COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have not been complied with, viz.:—South Western and Isle of Wight Junction Railway Bill [Lords].
  Ordered, That the Report be referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.
  Merthyr Tydfil Urban District Council Bill. Lords' Amendments considered, and agreed to.
  Port Talbot Railway and Docks Bill [Lords]. Read the third time, and passed, without Amendment.
  London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway Bill [Lords]. As amended, considered; an Amendment made; Bill to be read the third time.
  Lochnell Estate Bill [Lords]; North Western Electricity and Power-Gas Bill [Lords]; Shropshire and Worcestershire Electric Power Bill [Lords]; West Bromwich Corporation Bill [Lords]. Read a second time, and committed.
  Frinton-on-Sea Sea Defences Bill [Lords] (by Order). Read the third time and passed, with Amendments. [New Title.]
  Bangor Corporation Bill [Lords]. Report [9th July] from the Select Committee on Standing Orders read.
  Bill to be read a second time.

  MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
  That they have agreed to—Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 17) Bill; Local Government Provisional
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  Order (No. 18) Bill; Wolverhampton and Cannock Chase Railway (Extension of Time) Bill, without Amendment.
  Borough Funds Bill, with an Amendment.
  Local Government (Transfer of Powers) Bill; Local Government Provisional Order (No. 16) Bill; Hyde Corporation Bill; Leigh Corporation Bill; Broadstairs Gas Bill, with Amendments.
  Amendments to—Nantwich Urban District Council Bill [Lords]; Sheffield and South Yorkshire Navigation Bill [Lords]; Torquay Corporation Water Bill [Lords], without Amendment.

PETITIONS.
  LIGHT LOCOMOTIVES (REGISTRATION) BILL.
  Petition from Battersea, against; to lie upon the Table.
  LICENSING LAW (COMPENSATION FOR NON-RENEWAL) BILL.
  Petition from Cumberland, against; to lie upon the Table
  LICENSING (SCOTLAND) ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
  Petition from Milton, for alteration; to lie upon the Table.
  SHOPS (EARLY CLOSING) BILL.
  Petition from Battersea, against; to lie upon the Table.
  SHOPS (No. 2) BILL.
  Petition from Battersea, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  TRADE MARKS BILL.
  Petition from Manchester, for alteration; to lie upon the Table.
  VACCINATION PROSECUTIONS.
  Petitions from Trowbridge and Melksham, for alteration of Law; to lie upon the Table.
  WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION ACT (1897) AMENDMENT BILL.
  Petition from Battersea, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  BOARD OF EDUCATION (EDUCATION COMMITTEES).
  Copy presented, of statement of schemes for the formation of Education Committees approved during the month of June, 1903, by the Board of Education under Section 17 of the Education Act of 1902 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  CRIMINAL AND JUDICIAL STATISTICS (IRELAND).
  Copy: presented, of Criminal and Judicial Statistics of Ireland for the year 1902. Part II. Civil statistics [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  GAS AND WATER WORKS FACILITIES ACT, 1870.
  Copy presented, of Report by the Board of Trade as to dispensing with the consent of the Farnborough Urban District Council in the case of the Aldershot Gas and Water Provisional Order [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 251.]
  DISEASES OF ANIMALS ACTS, 1894 AND 1896.
  Copy presented, of an Order, dated the 30th June, 1903, entitled the Foreign Animals Order of 1903 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  Copies presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, Nos. 3027 to 3030 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table,
  Paper laid upon the Table by the Clerk of the House:—

  INQUIRY INTO CHARITIES (COUNTY OF WILTS).
  Further Return relative thereto [ordered 9th August, 1901; Mr. Griffith Boscawen]; to be printed. [No. 252.]
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Medical Examination of School Children.
  SIR JOHN BRUNNER: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether he is
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  aware that the Secretary for Scotland has publicly stated that some of the larger School Boards in Scotland are conducting a medical examination of the children on a scientific basis, and that it would be the desire of the Scottish Education Department to encourage other School Boards to follow the example; and whether he is prepared to give similar encouragement to English and Welsh local education authorities.
  (Answered by Sir William Anson.) The question of the medical examination of the children of their area by a local authority is one which the Board consider must be left to that authority to decide; but the Board will, of course, gladly welcome any such step as this which is likely to contribute to the improvement of the health and well-being of the children. I may remind the hon. Member that the Board issued in October, 1901, a circular to the managers and teachers of schools in large towns as to the great importance of proper attention being paid to the eyesight of the children.

  Superannuation Allowances for Scottish Public Asylum Officials.
  SIR J. FERGUSSON: To ask the Lord Advocate, considering that no statutory provision exists in Scotland for the grant of superannuation allowances to officers and servants of district and parochial lunatic asylums, while such provision has been made in respect of county and borough asylums in England, of district asylums in Ireland, and of chartered asylums in Scotland, as well as in other departments of the public service, and that the General Board of Commissioners in Lunacy in Scotland have repeatedly in their Reports pointed out that the absence of such provision is prejudicial to the interests of patients in the asylums, the Secretary for Scotland will consider the propriety of introducing a measure to place Scottish public asylum officials on a footing similar to those in English, Irish, and chartered Scottish asylums.
  (Answered by Mr. A. Graham Murray.) The point will be considered in the

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  event of its being found possible and expedient to propose legislation for the Amendment of the Lunacy (Scotland) Acts, but the Secretary for Scotland is unable to come under any definite obligation on the subject at present.

  Physical Training in Scotland.
  MR. HARMSWORTH: To ask the Lord Advocate whether the Scotch Education Department have yet arrived at any decision as to carrying out the recommendation of the Royal Commission on Physical Training (Scotland) to add a number of medical and sanitary experts to the inspecting staff under the Department.
  (Answered by Mr. A. Graham Murray.) The Department has been in communication with some of the larger School Boards on the matter referred to in the hon. Member's Question, but they are not as yet in a position to make any proposals to the Treasury.

  Pace of Motor Mails.
  MR. CATHCART WASON: To ask the Postmaster-General if he will issue regulations as to the pace at which motor mails may be driven in the public streets; and if he will consider the advisability of adopting some mechanical apparatus which will show the speed at which such cars have been driven during the day.
  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) The regulations as to the speed of motor vans, to which motors used for the mail service as well as other motors must conform, are laid down by the Local Government Board, and in drawing up the time tables for motor mail vans regard is paid to the authorised speed. I do not think it is necessary to adopt a mechanical apparatus for registering the speed of motor mail vans. We do not use any high speed motors.

  Inland Revenue v. McDonnell—Amount of Costs.
  MR. DELANY: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can state what is the amount of costs in the case of Inland Revenue v. McDonnell, in which
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  judgment has been marked in the Court of King's Bench, Dublin, for £5 5s.; and whether he will say why proceedings were not taken in the County Court.
  (Answered by Mr. Ritchie.) The costs claimed in this case amount to £4 11s. 4d., and have been taxed. The tax due is £5 5s. Judgment has been marked for the sum of £9 16s. 4d. It has never been the practice to proceed in the County Court for recovery of income tax under Schedule D. The present procedure is authorised by The Taxes Management Act, 1880, Section 111(1).

  Inland Revenue v. McDonnell—Assessment of Income.
  MR. DELANY: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that judgment under a writ in the High Courts has been obtained against Michael McDonnell of Abbeyleix, for the sum of £5 5s. and costs at the suit of the Inland Revenue for income tax; and whether, seeing that Mr. McDonnell occupies a small house rented at £15 a year, and that he possesses no income from any source except what he derives from the calling of poultry and egg dealer, which he pursues on a small scale, he will state upon what grounds the assessment was made.
  (Answered by Mr. Ritchie.) The assessment was fixed by the Special Commissioners of Income Tax, who, after hearing a personal appeal from Mr. McDonnell, were satisfied that the business carried on by him was of such a nature as to justify the charge.

  Coasting Steamers—Uncertificated Officers.
  SIR JOHN LENG: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade whether steamers are allowed to run along the coasts of the United Kingdom without any certificated officers on board, with the result that, in the event of collisions occurring leading to loss of life, the Board of Trade have no power of dealing with such officers; also, if there is any intention of applying a remedy for the loss of life and property

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  arising from the carelessness of unqualified masters and mates in coasting vessels.
  (Answered by Mr. Gerald Balfour.) The provisions of the Merchant Shipping Act as to carrying certificated officers on board British ships apply only to foreign-going ships and to home trade passenger ships. British vessels not belonging to those classes of ships are not required by law to carry certificated officers. It is, however, possible for a Court holding a formal investigation into a casualty to any British vessel to punish the officers involved by ordering them to pay the costs of the investigation. The question of legislating referred to by the hon. Member is a matter that would require consideration, and I am not at present prepared to express an opinion upon it.

  Removal of Sunken Boat at Baltasound.
  MR. CATHCART WASON: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade if his attention has been called to the fact that a boat sunk in the fairway at Baltasound is dangerous to navigation, and if steps will be taken to have the same removed.
  (Answered by Mr. Gerald Balfour.) I have no information respecting the casualty beyond that conveyed to me by the hon. Member. I will call the attention of the Commissioners of Northern Lighthouses to the matter, and they will do doubt take such steps as are necessary for the protection of navigation.

  Tonnage of Fishing Boats.
  MR. CATHCART WASON: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade, if his attention has been called to the disadvantages under which fishermen labour where no Board of Trade surveyor is available owing to the adoption of rules now in force for ascertaining tonnage of fishing boats; and, if so, will he state what steps he proposes to take in the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Gerald Balfour.) In consequence of complaints received as to the difficulty of applying the provisions of The Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, to Scottish fishing boats, the Board of Trade, having regard to all the circumstances,
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  propose to revert to the old method of measurement known as the Test Rule. Under this Rule the tonnage measurement of fishing boats can be determined by Coastguard, Customs, or Scottish Fishery Board officers, and consequently the attendance of a Board of Trade surveyor will not be necessary.

  Regulation of Size of Motor-Car Tyres.
  MR. HENRY HOBHOUSE: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether any public authority has power to regulate the width of tyres of motor-cars between one and three tons in weight, and if any such regulations have been made; and, if not, if he will see that any necessary power to make such regulations shall be included in the proposed legislation on motor-cars.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) By Section 6 of The Locomotives on Highways Act, 1896, the Local Government Board are empowered to make regulations with respect to the use of these vehicles on highways, and their construction and the conditions under which they may be used; and by an Order, dated 9th November, 1896, the following regulations were made as regards the width of the tyres:—If the weight of the vehicle unladen is more than 15 cwt., and does not exceed 1 ton, the width of the tyre is to be not less than 2½ inches; if such weight is more than 1 ton, and does not exceed 2 tons, the width is to be not less than 3 inches; if such weight exceeds 2 tons, the width is to be not less than 4 inches.

  Vaccination Prosecutions at Gainsborough.
  MR. SEYMOUR ORMSBY-GORE: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether the vaccination officers for the Gainsborough Union carry out the orders of the Local Government Board and take proceedings in opposition to the wishes of the guardians; and whether the Local Government Board will uphold the officers in their action, as they are threatened with dismissal or to be called upon to resign by the guardians.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) It is the duty of a vaccination officer to take

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  proceedings against defaulters under the Vaccination Acts, and I understand that the vaccination officers of this union have recently taken proceedings of this kind, although the guardians have been opposed to this course. As regards the last part of the Question, the consent of the Local Government Board is necessary before a vaccination officer can be dismissed. I should not be prepared to give that consent where the ground of the proposed dismissal was that the officer had performed his duty in this matter.

  Cooper's Hill Engineering College.
  SIR SEYMOUR KING: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether the Government of India will be consulted before any final step is taken in regard to continuing or discontinuing the Royal Indian Engineering College, Cooper's Hill.
  (Answered by Secretary Lord George Hamilton.) The answer is in the affirmative.

  London Education—Election of New Authority.
  MR. HERBERT ROBERTSON: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether any and what provision has been made in the event of the London Education Bill becoming an Act of Parliament in its present form for avoiding the necessity of a new London School Board being elected at the usual time next autumn and continuing the powers of the present School Board until the Act comes into operation; and, if not, whether any and what steps will be taken for this purpose.
  (Answered by Sir William Anson.) After the passing of the Act, Schedule II. (10) of the principal Act will apply.

  Schools above Ordinary Limits of Accommodation.
  SIR JOHN GORST: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether he will give the places at which the eighteen schools above the ordinary limits of accommodation have been sanctioned; the number of children in each; and the special reason for which sanction was given in each case.
  (Answered by Sir William Anson.) Of the schools in question two were actually
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  sanctioned and the sites of ten others before the right hon. Member left office. For the remaining six the facts are as follows:—

  Name of School.

  Numbers.

  Reason for sanction.

  Acton—

  Central Road Board School.

  403 Infants

  Special local circumstances.

  340 Junior Mixed

  340 Senior Mixed

  Killybebill—

  Alltwen Board School

  480 Mixed

  Special local circumstances.

  Leeds—

  Cowper Street Board School

  600 Infants

  Special local circumstances.

  500 Senior Mixed

  420 Junior Mixed

  Liverpool—

  Sherlock Street Board School

  451 Infants

  Board committed to scheme.

  380 Girls

  390 Boys

  Portsmouth—

  Reginald Road Board School

  440 Infants

  Special local circumstances.

  390 Girls

  390 Boys

  Swansea—

  Hatford Road Board School

  408 Infants

  Special local consideration.

  400 Boys

  400 Girls

  Delay in Erection of Labourers' Cottages in the Cavan Union.
  MR. M'GOVERN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland is he aware that dissatisfaction exists owing to the delay in building labourers' cottages in Cavan Union, and that it is over eighteen months since the inquiry was held; and, if so, can he state the cause of the delay, and what is the present state of the scheme.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The inquiry was held, as stated, more than eighteen months ago. The Board issued an Order in confirmation of portion of the council's improvement scheme on the 17th July last, the unopposed portion of which became absolute on the 30th September, whilst the opposed portion was amended and confirmed by the Order in Council of the 4th March. The cause of the delay in carrying the scheme into execution is the failure of the Rural District Council to furnish the Local Government Board, in correct form and detail, with all the documents which are requisite to enable it to appoint an arbitrator to determine the amounts of purchase money to be paid for the lands authorised to be acquired compulsorily. The Board has repeatedly pressed the council to settle this matter, the last occasion on which it addressed

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  the local authority on the subject being the 6th instant. The execution of the authorised scheme is a duty which devolves upon the Rural District Council.

  Prosecution for Carts without Owner's Name thereon.
  MR. FLYNN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the constabulary authorities are aware of the fact that a farmer, Mr. Daniel Buckley, Cloverhill, was summoned at Mallow Petty Sessions, on 29th June last, for neglecting to have his name on a market cart, and fined, together with costs placed on him; and whether, in view of the custom of the police to caution an individual before proceeding with a summons, he will state whether the requirement of marking all carts and vehicles is enforced by the constabulary irrespective of class or position.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The prosecution referred to was one of a number instituted at the same petty sessions for the same breach of the law. The Inspector-General has no reason to believe that the requirements of the law in this respect are not impartially carried out by the police.

  Sterilisation of Water for Troops in the Field.
  SIR MICHAEL FOSTER: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether the experiments on sterilisation of water for troops in the field, referred to in his answer of 31st July, 1902,† have led to any scheme of sterilisation being put to the test at manœuvres or otherwise; and, if so, with what results.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) Experimental tests have been made with various forms of heat sterilising apparatus and sterilising filters, and on the results of these further tests are being made in Somaliland, and will be made at the forthcoming manœuvres. The sterilisation of water in standing camps can be arranged, but in the case of moving
  † See (4) Debates, cxii., 275.
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  bodies of troops great difficulty is being experienced in obtaining really satisfactory results.

  Soldiers serving Abroad—Cost of Telegrams.
  MR. PLATT-HIGGINS: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that expense is incurred by officers and soldiers of the Army serving on foreign stations when cable communication is necessary with their relatives at home, or vice versâ, for want of a recognised telegraphic cable code; and, if so, whether arrangements can be made for every commanding officer stationed abroad to have a word registered as his code address, and for such commanding officer to be supplied with a code of the cable company which serves his station, or of a new code prepared expressly, with a view to lessen the cost of private messages to and from officers and soldiers serving abroad.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) As regards code addresses, a large number of official code addresses are already registered by the Post Office, and I will inquire whether these can be extended in the direction suggested. As regards the messages, it should be remembered that there are several code books, as the Unicode and A B C, of which officers can avail themselves by arrangement with their relatives.

  Majors Serving away from their Regiments.
  MR. PIRIE: To ask the Secretary of State for War if he can state the number of majors in cavalry and infantry serving away from their particular regiments, specifying the number serving respectively in provisional regiments and in Staff or other appointments.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The number of cavalry majors holding Staff and other appointments away from their regiments is eighteen, and the number of infantry majors is 175. The majors, for whom extra captains are given, serving with provisional regiments are included in the above eighteen.

  British and Native Losses in Somaliland.
  MR. PIRIE: To ask the Secretary of State for War can he state the approximate loss of British and native life respectively in Somaliland up to 1st July, 1903, in operations against the Mullah,

  British.

  Native.

  Officers.

  Other ranks.

  All Ranks.

  Killed in action or died of wounds

  -

  -

  16

  2

  338

  Died of disease

  -

  -

  -

  -

  -

  -

  1

  4

  —

  Missing

  -

  -

  -

  -

  -

  -

  -

  —

  1

  1

  17

  7

  339

  The total cost up to date, from the time the War Office took over the conduct of operations, is approximately £450,000, and the present cost may be taken at £50,000 a month; but it is impossible to make a definite estimate until accounts are received from India.

  Strength of Army Veterinary Department.
  MR. PIRIE: To ask the Secretary of State for War what is the actual strength of the Army Veterinary Department compared with the establishment.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The establishment of officers of the Army Veterinary Department is 169, and the present strength, including three supernumeraries, is 134.

  Construction of Suakin-Berber Railway.
  MR. WHITLEY THOMSON: To ask the Secretary of State for War if, in view of the fact that the material sent out in 1885 for the construction of the Suakin-Berber Railway is now stored in this country, he will consider the advisability of returning this material to Suakin and commencing the construction of this railway forthwith, with a view to providing cheap transit for cotton and other materials to the coast.
  commencing with the action at Erego; also total cost up to date of Colonel Swaine's and General Manning's operations, and total estimated monthly cost at present.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The casualties are as follows:—
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The hon. Member had been misinformed. All the Suakin-Berber materials have been issued and utilised for other War Department services, the bulk having long since been disposed of in this way.

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  Cost of South African Garrison.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War what is the estimated expenditure per week in connection with the forces now maintained in South Africa.
  *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (MR. BRODRICK,): The total expenditure in connection with the forces now in South Africa may be taken at about £110,000 per week, being about £45,000 per week in excess of the sum which would be incurred if the troops were at home.

  Royal Arsenal, Woolwich.
  DR. HUTCHINSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been directed to the fact that some new buildings at the Royal Arsenal at Woolwich, in which explosives are dealt with, are in such close proximity to the firing

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  ground that the discharge of the guns is a source of danger to the men working in such buildings; and, if so, will he give the name of the official who is responsible for selecting the site of these buildings; and what steps, if any, are being taken to secure the safety of the men who work in them.
  *MR. BRODRICK: The question whether the firing of guns at the proof butts is a source of danger to the danger buildings or the men in them is now being carefully considered. Pending the conclusion of the inquiry heavy proof is not fired while men are working in these buildings.

  Army Corps.
  MR. PIRIE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War has the 3rd Division of the 1st Army Corps been formed; if so, what is its strength; and, if not, when is it proposed to form it; and can he explain why this is not done before proceeding with the formation of the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Army Corps; is it intended to continue the formation of the 5th and 6th Army Corps; and, if so, will their formation be initiated by the appointment of their commanders and staff.
  *MR. BRODRICK: One brigade of the 3rd Division of the 1st Army Corps is already quartered in the Command. Its strength is 3,320. The barracks for the 2nd brigade are not at present available, and the troops are quartered elsewhere in Great Britain. The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Army Corps which have been formed are far advanced to completion, as shown in the Returns recently laid before Parliament. The formation of the 5th and 6th Corps will not take place till a considerable number of the units are available in the districts affected.

  Staff Officers and Regimental Duty.
  MR. PIRIE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he will state after what intervals under the Army Regulations an officer on the Staff is required to return to regimental duty; whether this regulation has been disregarded at home; and if so, why, and in how many, and in what cases.
  *MR. BRODRICK: Officers are required to rejoin their regiments for a tour of
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  regimental duty on the termination of each staff appointment, but there is no published regulation on the subject. For obvious reasons during the late war compliance with this rule was not always found practicable, but it is now being strictly enforced.

  Irish Tailors and War Office Contracts.
  MR. LUNDON, on behalf of the hon. Member for the St. Patrick Division of Dublin, I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether his attention has been directed to a communication from the Dublin Master Tailors' Association in April last complaining of the new arrangement for sending in estimates; and if so whether in future facilities will be afforded and opportunity given to enable Irish tailors to obtain as formerly a proportion of the orders.
  *MR. BRODRICK: The communication in question dealt chiefly with kit for the Imperial Yeomanry, the supply of which does not concern the War Department. As regards the supply to officers on joining the Regular Forces, estimates have been received from Irish firms and the lists containing them will be circulated to officers, but the selection of a tailor is left entirely to the discretion of the officers.

  Locomotives for Canada.
  MR. REMNANT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether orders have recently been received by a Glasgow firm for locomotives for Canada; and, if so, whether these orders have been secured by this country on account of the Canadian preferential tariff.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN,): I am aware that orders have been recently placed in Glasgow for locomotives for Canada and I am informed by the managing director of the company which obtained the order that they could not have secured it but for the operation of the preferential tariff.

  Lord Milner and the Johannesburg Press.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware

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  that shortly before his visit to Johannesburg the editorial staff of the Johannesburg Leader were dismissed summarily at the request of Lord Milner for attacking his administration in the Transvaal; and, if so, will he state why did the High Commissioner of South Africa interfere with the editorial management of a Johannesburg newspaper. This, I may say, is not a "put up" question.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I have no information on the subject, but I have no doubt that the hon. Member is misinformed as to the action which he attributes to Lord Milner.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire of Lord Milner—will he "bother him?"
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir, I do not think it is necessary.

  Colonial Import Duties.
  MR. ALFRED DAVIES: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade if he will state the amounts received respectively by our colonies from duties on imports from Great Britain and Ireland in the years 1882–1892 and 1902; and also from duties on all imports during those years.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR,): The information cannot be given, as the colonial trade returns do not, in the majority of cases, distinguish the amounts of duty collected on imported goods according to the countries from which the imports were received.
  MR. ALFRED DAVIES: Will the right hon. Gentleman say when I can put a further Question?
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: Is not the information published in the Board of Trade Returns?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I think not.

  Trade with Tibet.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether the Government of India
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  contemplate the despatch of a Commissioner to Tibet with a view to arrange for improved trade facilities between the two countries.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Lord GEORGE HAMILTON,): A proposal was made last year by the Chinese Government for the despatch of a Chinese Commissioner to discuss on the spot certain questions relating to the frontier and to trade between Tibet and India. The Government of India contemplate, and are making arrangements for, the despatch of British Commissioners to meet the Chinese Commissioner and a representative of the Dalai Lama of Tibet to discuss the pending questions.

  Roads to the Tibetan Frontier.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India if he will state how many miles of road have been surveyed and how many constructed between Darjeeling and the Tibetan frontier.
  LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: I have no information that any new roads have been surveyed or constructed between Darjeeling and the Tibetan frontier, but steps have been taken to improve the sections of the existing trade routes nearest to Siliguri.
  In answer to a further Question, Lord GEORGE HAMILTON said the trade roads in course of development were east of Darjeeling. He could not say whether arrangements had been made for an extension in the direction of Botham.

  Russian Evacuation of Manchuria.
  THE MASTER OF ELIBANK: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will state the date on which Russia undertook to evacuate the second section of Manchuria and the treaty port of Newchwang, and what is being done with the Customs revenue collected at the port.
  *THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Lord CRANBORNE,): By Article II. of the Russo-Chinese Convention of 8th April,

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  1902, Russia undertook to evacuate the second section of Manchuria, which includes Newchwang, by 8th April, 1903. As I stated on the 30th April,† we have been informed that the duties collected by the Imperial Maritime Customs at Newchwang are paid into the Russo-Chinese Bank, to the credit of the Chinese Government minus the monthly amount required for the support of the Customs Office.

  Mecca Pilgrims.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, if he will state how many pilgrims left Egypt for Mecca on the occasion of the last pilgrimage and the last but one; and will he say by what line of steamers they were required to travel.
  *LORD CRANBORNE: I am afraid I am not able to give the figures for which the hon. Gentleman asks. But on this subject I would venture to refer him to Lord Cromer's Report on the subject in "Egypt No. 1 (1903)." The pilgrims are required to travel by any line of steamers complying with certain conditions laid down by the Egyptian Government.
  MR. WEIR: With the result that the number of pilgrims has been reduced by thousands.

  Egypt.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will state whether any negotiations, understandings, or arrangements have recently been entered into with the European Powers in regard to Egypt; and, if so, will he state briefly their character.
  *LORD CRANBORNE: The answer is in the negative.

  German Commercial Treaty.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why the promised Papers in connection with the denunciation of the Commercial Treaty with Germany have not been presented.
  † See (4) Debates, cxxi., 952.
  *LORD CRANBORNE: The Papers have already been laid, and will be distributed as soon as possible. The hon. Gentleman will see that they were kept back in order to include a despatch from the German Government, which was received a few days ago, and the reply of His Majesty's Government.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: Are the Papers now in the hands of the printers?
  *LORD CRANBORNE: Yes, Sir.

  Income Tax Collections in Scotland.
  *MR. M'CRAE: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the fact that the amount of income tax, inhabited house duty, and land tax outstanding at 28th February, 1901, for that financial year amounted in England to £14,28,000, and in Scotland to £220,375, representing 46 per cent. and 7 per cent. respectively of the total charge, the time and method of collection of income tax will be considered by the Committee to whom the matter of income tax has been remitted; and whether, pending the result of inquiry England and Scotland will be put in a position of equality as to the time and method of collection of income tax.
  *THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. RITCHIE,): I cannot admit that there is any inequality, nor do I think that Scotland has any grievance, any more than the persons in England who pay taxes punctually have a grievance as compared with those who pay unpunctually.
  *MR. M'CRAE: May I point out that although the law is the same, it is enforced quite differently in the two countries?
  *MR. RITCHIE: It would be highly dangerous for me to stop the zealous manner in which those in Scotland responsible for the collection of the Revenue act.

  Rebate on Glucose.
  MR. FLOWER: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the fact that under the Finance Act, 1903, Section 1 (4), a rebate of 10s. a ton has been allowed on glucose imported into this country and

  405
  in stock on 30th June ultimo, and that a similar allowance has been refused by His Majesty's Customs to the manufacturers of glucose in this country, the reason given being that the article in question is not in the same condition as the raw material from which it is manufactured, and which had paid duty having undergone transformation, although malt, the analogous transformation product of barley, has received such allowance, he will take steps to place British manufacturers on the same footing as foreigners.
  *MR. RITCHIE: Malt is one of the articles specifically dutied under Section 1 of the Finance Act, 1902, therefore rebate of duty on a duty-paid stock of it could not be refused under Section 1 (4) (a) of the Finance Act, 1903. Apart, however, from this fact, I cannot agree that the malting of barley involves a chemical transformation analogous to that which takes place when starch is converted into glucose. Importers of glucose might in any case, by warehousing it in bond, have avoided payment of the duty. On the other hand, makers of glucose in this country had more than two months notice given them to enable them to dispose of their stocks of glucose made from dutiable materials before the duty ceased. The stock of home-made glucose I am informed is very small, so that a remission of the duty does not involve any considerable sum of money, but the principle is highly important, and I do not consider that I should be justified in extending the concession already made. I would again point out that the exceptional treatment given to grain was with the view of preventing disturbance in the grain trade and a consequent rise in prices. The circumstances in connection with the manufacture of glucose are in no way comparable.
  MR. JAMES LOWTHER: Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that it is just that the home producers who pay rates and taxes should be treated less favourably than foreigners?
  *MR. RITCHIE: I have explained that imports of glucose would, in any case, have escaped the duty. As a matter of
  406
  consideration to the home makers we gave them two months in which to get rid of their stocks, and I am sure the House will consider that this was ample.
  MR. FLOWER: I shall draw attention to this matter at the earliest opportunity.

  Telegraphic Delays in Scotland.
  SIR JOHN LENG: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if he will state where the breakages occurred during the gale in Scotland on Monday, 6th July, in the telegraphic communication, and for what length of time messages were delayed in transmission before communication was renewed.
  THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN,): On the 6th instant a large tree was blown across the telegraph line between Chester and Eccleston, breaking twenty-two wires, and a similar accident happened to the line between Lichfield and Stafford. There were minor interruptions all along the lines caused by branches of trees in full foliage being blown across the wires. The maximum delay to messages was at about 2.30 p.m.: it was then 130 minutes to Dundee, 110 minutes to Glasgow and Aberdeen, and 105 minutes to Edinburgh. By 6.30 the delay was reduced to half-an-hour.

  Ecclesiastical Commissioners.
  MR. BRYNMOR JONES: I beg to ask the hon. Member for West Salford if he will state how many meetings of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners were held in the years 1901 and 1902; what was the number of attendances at these meetings of each Church Estates Commissioner; was the business of the Commission delayed on any and how many occasions owing to the fact that two Church Estates Commissioners were not present.
  THE PARLIAMENTARY CHARITY COMMISSIONER (Mr. LEES KNOWLES,): The numbers of meetings of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners were in 1901 twenty-one, and in 1902 twenty-two; of the Estates Committee in 1901 thirty-five, and in 1902 thirty-four. The

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  attendances of the Church Estates Commissioners at these meetings were: of the First Church Estates Commissioner in 1901 fifty-three, and in 1902 fifty-four; of the Second Church Estates Commissioner in 1901 forty-one, and in 1902 fifty; of the Church Estates Commissioner appointed by the Archbishop of Canterbury in 1901 fifty-four, and in 1902 fifty-five. There has not during the period in question been any failure of a meeting by reason of the non-attendance of the minimum number of two Church Estates Commissioners.

  Scottish County Council Clerks as Election Agents.
  MR. PIRIE: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether the Government will consider the advisability of recommending the County Councils to instruct their clerks, who are salaried by ratepayers holding various political opinions, to abstain from interference in politics, whether in a paid capacity as election agent, or not.
  *THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAY,): I am unable to add anything to the reply given to the hon. Member on the 9th instant.†
  MR. PIRIE: If the practice is not discontinued I shall draw attention to it next year.

  Contempt of Court in Ireland.
  MR. DILLON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that a man named John McElligott has been lying in Dundalk Gaol for two years for contempt of Court; whether he can state what is the nature of the charge against him; and whether he can take any steps with a view to securing the release of McElligott.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM,): The committal was for contempt on a writ of attachment issued by the Master of the Rolls. The Executive has no power to intervene in the matter. The Master of the Rolls has on several occasions informed
  † See page 156.
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  the prisoner that a verbal undertaking to abstain from repeating his contempt will be followed by immediate release.
  MR. DILLON: Suppose evidence is laid before the right hon. Gentleman that this prisoner is in danger of losing his mind what steps can be taken to procure his release from prison?
  MR. WYNDHAMwas understood to say that the medical officers would have to report on the case to the Prisons Board.

  Munster and the Congested Districts Board.
  MR. GILHOOLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether a vacancy exists on the Congested Districts Board; and, if so, seeing that the Province of Munster is unrepresented on it, will he consider the advisability of giving it representation.
  MR. WYNDHAM: There is no vacancy at present.
  MR. GILHOOLY: When a vacancy arises will the claims of Munster be considered?
  MR. WYNDHAM: The whole facts will be considered.
  MR. FLAVIN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that numerous public boards in the south of Ireland have passed resolutions calling attention to the fact that Munster is not represented on the Board?
  MR. WYNDHAM: Kerry has very effective representation in this House.
  MR. FLAVIN: And I hope to make it more effective.

  Small Farmers Dwellings Loans.
  MR. POWER: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether steps will be taken to enable small farmers in Ireland to obtain loans at 3½ per cent.,

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  principal and interest repayable in fifty years, for the erection of dwellings on their holdings.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Legislation would be necessary to vary the conditions under which these loans are at present made. If legislation should hereafter be proposed dealing with the question of Land Improvement Loans the suggestion of the hon. Member will be considered.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELL: Is not 6 per cent. now charged?
  MR. WYNDHAM: 6½ per cent., principal and interest.

  Irish Trials—Changes of Venue.
  MR. P. J. O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, on what grounds the executive applied for a special jury and change of venue under the Criminal Law and Procedure Act in the case against Stapleton, Delany, and Carroll, of Borrisaleigh.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The Attorney-General applied for a change of venue and for a special jury, on the ground that a more fair and impartial trial could thus be obtained. The accused did not make any objection to the change of venue as they were entitled by law to do.
  MR. DILLON: Was any notice of the motion given to the accused? In view of what the right hon. Gentleman has said as to the desire of the Government to get a fair and impartial jury, is it proposed to pack a jury in Cork?
  MR. P. J. O'BRIEN: Does the right hon. Gentleman say a fair jury could not have been obtained at the Nenagh Assizes?
  MR. WYNDHAM: I must ask for notice of further Questions.

  Irish Loan Fund Societies.
  MR. DILLON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the fact that the Bill introduced and passed by the Government in 1900, dealing with the
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  Loan Fund system, contained no provision tending to secure more regular and business-like attention to their duties on the part of the treasurers and trustees of the Loan Fund Societies, he will say whether the Bill now drafted by the Attorney-General contains any such provisions.
  MR. WYNDHAM: It is not proposed at this period of the session to introduce a Bill providing for a reform and reconstruction of the Loan Fund system, desirable as that may be, but only to remedy an error into which Loan Fund Societies have fallen through a mistaken view of the existing law.
  MR. DILLON: Can the right hon. Gentleman say why in the last few years no effort has been made to introduce a Bill to carry out the continuously made recommendations of the Local Loan Board?
  MR. WYNDHAM: The hon. Member's own experience of the business of this House will, I think, supply an answer to the Question.

  Belmullet and Mallaranny Steamers.
  MR. O'KELLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state what is the nature of the inquiries he is making in connection with the steamer service between Belmullet and Mallaranny; and whether there is any intention to drop the scheme.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I am engaged in negotiations with the Midland and Great Western Railway Company in this matter, and no conclusion has yet been arrived at.
  [There were several supplementary Questions put to this but they were quite inaudible in the Press gallery.]

  Irish Gun Licences.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will explain why Pat Cournane, Castlemaine, County Kerry, has been refused a licence for a gun by the resident magistrate; and will he take steps to secure

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  that resident magistrates shall not withhold gun licences without reasonable cause.
  MR. WYNDHAM: On the 7th May I explained to the hon. Member the reasons which induced the resident magistrate to withhold a gun licence in this instance.† The suggestion at the end of the Question indicates the existing practice. Of 6,708 applications for arms licences throughout Ireland in 1902, only 619, or 9 per cent., were refused.

  Nenagh Cottage Scheme.
  MR. P. J. O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware of the case of James Quigley, labourer, for whom the Nenagh Rural District Council applied for a cottage and an acre of ground in their Provisional Order for 1902; whether he is aware that the proposed site was thrown out by the Local Government Inspector at the inquiry held in April of that year on the ground of want of water; that, subsequently, the labourer having got permission from a neighbouring farmer to make use of his water supply, the Council again brought the matter under the consideration of the Local Government Board urging Quigley's claim, his house having been condemned as unsanitary and unfit for human habitation; that the Board refused to make the order, alleging that the owner of the land might have other grounds of objection though none was raised by him on the inquiry except the absence of water; and, if so, will he, under the circumstances, have Quigley's case reconsidered.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The facts are as stated in the first part of the Question. The Local Government Board informed the District Council that the case would be sanctioned provided the written consents were obtained from the owner and occupier of the adjoining holding, to the water supply on which it was stated Quigley would have access. These consents have not yet been furnished.
  Mr. P. J. O'BRIEN: And if the consent is obtained will the matter be reconsidered?
  † See (4) Debates, cxxii., 19.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Yes, I understand that all difficulty will then have disappeared.

  Grazing Farms in Congested Districts.
  MR. O'DOWD: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether there is any provision in the Irish Land Bill, as amended, which proposes to deal with the question of those grazing farms situated in congested districts counties which within the last two years have been purchased by money advanced by the Land Commission to non-residents of these districts, who use them exclusively for grazing purposes; and, if so, what is the nature of such provision.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The reply to this Question is in the negative. It is not proposed to disturb past transactions entered into according to law.

  Public Audits in Ireland.
  MR. LUNDON: On behalf of the hon. Member for the St. Patrick Division of Dublin, I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, whether, seeing that a permanent audit office staff is established at Devonport, any public inconvenience results there from in the way of exercising direct supervision of the work performed, and of personal conference between the Comptroller and Auditor-General and the officers engaged upon it; and, if not, seeing that Devonport is nearly as far from London as Dublin, whether he is prepared to make arrangements to have a similar permanent audit office staff in Dublin.
  *THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. ELLIOT,): Public inconvenience undoubtedly results from the impossibility of exercising direct supervision of the audit work performed at Devonport and other dockyards, and from the absence of opportunity for personal conference between the Comptroller and Auditor-General and the officers engaged upon it. But it would be still more inconvenient to the public service to remove the books from the dockyards to London.
  MR. LUNDON: On behalf of the hon. Member for the St. Patrick Division of Dublin, I beg to ask the Secretary

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  to the Treasury whether, seeing that less than £500 of the Exchequer and Audit Vote is expended in Ireland, and that it is found to be in the interests of the public service to have an audit office staff permanently employed at Devonport Dockyard, a long distance away from headquarters in London, he is prepared to make arrangements to have a proportionate share of this Vote spent in Ireland by establishing a similar permanent audit office staff in Dublin.
  MR. ELLIOT: For the reasons stated in reply to similar Questions on the 29th June last,† it is not proposed to establish a permanent audit staff in Dublin.

  Irish Savings Bank Accounts.
  MR. LUNDON: On behalf of the hon. Member for the St. Patrick Division of Dublin, I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he would state in what way it is more economical and convenient to keep the Irish Savings Bank accounts in London, considering the time it takes for Irish depositors to communicate with London and receive replies there from.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: It is not possible to go fully into this matter in reply to a Question; but I think it must be obvious that, by keeping all the Savings Bank accounts of the United Kingdom at one central institution, the administration is made more convenient and economical. The delay to the business of Irish depositors involved in communication with London as compared with Dublin is very slight.

  County Cork Postal Arrangements.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: On behalf of the hon. Member for S. E. Cork, I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he will establish a daily service for the delivery of letters in the townlands of Dromovane, Scraghan, Killowen and Tullyglass, Enniskeane, R.S.O., county Cork, as the present system causes much inconvenience, letters being delivered only on three days in the week.
  † See (4) Debates, cxxiv., 797.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I will make inquiry on the subject, and communicate the result to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  New Naval Base—Forth and Clyde Canal.
  MR. PIRIE: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, in view of the importance of securing a commercial and strategic waterway connecting the West of Scotland with the new naval base of the Firth of Forth, and of the fact that it is not at present intended to devote naval funds for that purpose, he will consider the desirability of examining the possibility of enlarging the existing Forth and Clyde Canal on the lines of the recently executed Kiel Canal, and of publishing a report as to the cost and time required for the execution of such a work.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): I ought not to pretend to the hon. Gentleman or to the House that it is within the scope of the Admiralty plan, as at present arranged, to devote public money to such a purpose as the hon. Member suggests.
  MR. EUGENE WASON: Will the right hon. Gentleman be prepared to guarantee interest at 2½ per cent. if the money was raised privately?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: That is a Question which should be addressed to my long-suffering colleague the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
  MR. PIRIE: I think the right hon. Gentleman misunderstood my Question.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The hon. Gentleman distinctly advocates this expenditure on naval strategical grounds.
  MR. PIRIE: And commercial.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: But mainly on Admiralty grounds, and the cost would therefore have to be defrayed out of Navy Votes.

  The Fiscal Inquiry.
  MR. JOHN ELLIS: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether any instructions have been or are intended to be given by the Government to certain of the public Departments with respect to information to be supplied by them in connection with the inquiry suggested into fiscal policy, and, in that case, to what Departments have such instructions been given; and will he lay their terms before the House.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The public Departments chiefly concerned are, as the hon. Gentleman is no doubt aware, the Board of Trade and the Customs and Inland Revenue. I do not propose to lay on the Table of the House the details of any instructions which may be given to these departments.
  MR. JOHN ELLIS: May I ask whether any instructions have already been given?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Some instructions have been given and no doubt some instructions remain to be given.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Will the clerks get paid for the extra labour involved?
  [No answer was returned.]
  *MR. SOAMES: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the inquiry into the fiscal proposals of the Colonial Secretary has begun; whether it is expected that it will be concluded before the end of the present session; whether the result of the inquiry will be communicated to Parliament or to the country; and, if so, by what means.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: As the hon. Member is well aware, the inquiry has begun; but I do not propose to suggest any answer to the second and third Questions.
  MR. BLACK: I wish to ask whether the Government has come to a decision that the only effective method of causing Germany to restore
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  Canada to the most-favoured-nation treatment is by imposing a retaliatory duty in this country.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: No, Sir. I have no Government decision to announce on the subject.
  MR. BLACK: Do the Government then repudiate the Colonial Secretary?
  [No reply was made.]

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  *SIR CHARLES DILKE: Is there any change in the arrangements for Thursday?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The Army Estimates will be taken on Thursday as the first Order.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Does that mean the salary of the Secretary for War, as I am anxious to discuss him?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Yes.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: May I ask whether the Sugar Convention Bill and the South African Loan Bill will be taken this week?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I see no probability, or the least possibility, of their being taken this week.
  MR. MARKHAM: Will the Colonial Secretary's Vote be put down this week?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: No, Sir.
  MR. BUCHANAN: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury when the Military Works Bill will be taken.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I think it very unlikely that the Bill will come on in the present week, but I must not be precluded taking it if opportunity unexpectedly offers.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, seeing that on the

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  last two days when Scottish Votes were placed on the Paper only eight minutes before midnight were available for their discussion on one day and only six minutes before midnight on the other, will he state when an opportunity will be afforded for discussing the Vote for the Secretary for Scotland and other Scottish Votes.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: If time allows. I shall be glad to put down the Vote in which the hon. Member is interested, but I cannot absolutely promise to find time for the discussion.

  PORT OF LONDON BILL.
  Reported, with Amendments, from the Joint Committee, with Minutes of Evidence. Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. Bill, as amended in the Joint Committee, re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Wednesday, and to be printed. [Bill 274.]
  PREVENTION OF CORRUPTION BILL. [LORDS.]
  Reported, with Amendments, from the Standing Committee on Law, etc. Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 253]; Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed [No. 253]. Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be considered To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 275.]
  POOR PRISONERS' DEFENCE BILL.
  Special Report from the Select Committee brought up and read. Special Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 254.]

  LICENSING ACTS (SCOTLAND) CONSOLIDATION AND AMENDMENT BILL.
  As amended (by the Standing Committee), considered.
  Clause (Forfeiture of Excise licences in certain cases—)
  "In Part III., to move the following clause—'Every holder of an Excise licence for the sale of excisable liquor obtained without the production of a certificate from a licensing Court, who shall be guilty of an offence against the provisions of the sections of this Act, whereof the marginal notes are respectively "Distribution of liquor from vans," "Penalties for selling without certificate," "Penalty for selling spirits or trafficking
  418
  in excisable liquors without certificate," and "Penalty for hawking excisable liquors," or any of such provisions, shall, on conviction thereof, forfeit such licence, and shall be incapable of obtaining or holding such licence for a period of two years from the date of such conviction, and it shall be the duty of the clerk of the convicting Court to transmit forthwith to the Commissioners of Inland Revenue the particulars of any such conviction.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)
  Brought up, and read the first time.
  Motion made and Question proposed, "That the clause be read a second time."
  MR. CROMBIEsaid the subject matter of this clause had been dealt with in another clause in the Bill, which left it in the hands of the magistrates, so that he knew there were some objections, and he had consequently put down a clause placing the question in the hands of the sheriffs. He would like to draw the attention of the House to the evils which it was desired to deal with. He had in his hand a letter from the Chief Constable of Dumbarton describing the evils which existed, largely in consequence of a trade that was established solely for the convenience of colonies of navvies engaged in railway construction. The Lord Advocate had described the evil as a small one, but it was likely to grow. So long as it was possible to do so by the establishment of bogus clubs, persons avoided compliance with the ordinary licensing laws of the country. Happily, the Bill would destroy that evil, and these persons were now being driven to seek their undesirable objects by other means, one of which was the utilisation of these Excise licences. Ordinary penalties were not in his opinion sufficient for offences in these cases, and he would therefore like to see the power of forfeiture conferred. That would be one of the most effective means of putting down she beening, and if the clause were read a second time he would move the insertion of words to secure that object.
  Question put and agreed to.
  MR. CROMBIEsaid he would now move the Amendment he had indicated, and he might explain that he had taken the words from the certificate in the

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  schedule of the Bill which was enforced on holders of licences who came before the magistrates.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In line 8, after the word 'provisions' to insert the words 'or of knowingly permitting any breach of the peace, or riotous or disorderly conduct within his premises, or selling or supplying excisable liquors to persons who are in a state of intoxication, or selling or giving out the same on Sunday.'"—(Mr. Crombie.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
  THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAY,): I am perfectly willing to insert the words, although I do not believe they are necessary.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Clause, as amended, added to the Bill.
  Clause (Police to report offences)—
  "In Part VI., insert the following clause:—'A chief officer of police shall, without undue delay, report to the procurator fiscal or other party by this Act directed to prosecute offenders all offences committed against this Act coming to his knowledge, and shall at all times use the means within his control for the detection and, when necessary, the apprehension of all offenders.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)
  Brought up, and read the first and second time and added to the Bill.
  MR. CROMBIE, in moving the Second Reading of the new clause which stood in his name, explained that the result of the divisions upon it in Committee was a tie, and but for the absence of one hon. Member who had promised to support it, it would have been carried. It could not, therefore, be suggested that he was pursuing an obstructive policy in this matter. This was one of the few points which both the Majority and Minority Report of the Royal Commission recommended. No doubt there was great difficulty in regulating the opening and closing of licensed premises by reason of the existence of grocers' licences. They could not force a grocer to close his whole shop without inflicting great injustice upon him by preventing him selling provisions, while, if only one department of his premises was closed, the police had
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  no guarantee that the law was strictly observed. He hoped that the Lord Advocate would accept the clause.
  Clause (No new grocers' licences to be granted)—
  "After the passing of this Act it shall not be lawful for the licensing authority of any burgh or county or district of a county to grant any new certificate for the sale of spirits, wine, beer, or other excisable liquors to any grocer or provision dealer, except in premises exclusively used for the sale of excisable liquors."—(Mr. Crombie.)
  Brought up, and read the first time.
  Motion made and Question proposed, That the clause be read a second time."
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid he did not for one moment complain of the action of the hon. Member in bringing this clause forward again, but he could only repeat the arguments which he used successfully—though with a very narrow majority in his favour—before the Committee. There might, of course, be something to be said on the question of the entire separation of the trades, but it should, in his opinion, be brought about by a general enactment. This clause would create a monopoly in favour of existing grocers' licences which would grow in value year by year. It would be a sort of tontine in favour of present licensed grocers, and future licence-holders would be penalised by having to compete in the trade under entirely different conditions. He doubted if public opinion was yet ripe for such a change in the law.
  SIR ROBERT REIDsaid the right hon. Gentleman had practically admitted that an evil existed by reason of premises not being exclusively used for the sale of excisable liquors—
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: I admitted the fact, but I do not admit it is an evil.
  SIR ROBERT REIDsaid the right hon. Gentleman suggested there was a good deal to be said in favour of separation, and told them the subject was one which should be dealt with in a general enactment, although he was not prepared himself to take it in hand. Undoubtedly there was an evil which

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  ought to be remedied. He dissented from the view that the acceptance of the Amendment would establish a sort of tontine in favour of existing licence-holders. It would not prevent the grant of fresh licences, however; it would only provide that new licences should be granted under circumstances in which the trade could be more satisfactorily carried on. It was to his mind a great pity—in view of the fact that both the
  Minority and Majority Report were in favour of this proposal—that this opportunity of dealing with it should not be taken advantage of, seeing that no single vested interest would be prejudicially affected.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 64; Noes, 102. (Division List No. 142.)

  AYES.

  Asher, Alexander

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Russell, T. W.

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H.

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Black, Alexander William

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristl, E.

  Spear, John Ward

  Bryce, Right Hon. James

  Hutchinson, Dr. Chas. Fredk.

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Jones, David B. (Swansea)

  Sullivan, Donal

  Burt, Thomas

  Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Langley, Batty

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Caldwell, James

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Ure, Alexander

  Cameron, Robert

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Wallace, Robert

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasg.)

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Wason, E. (Clackmannan)

  Crooks, William

  Lloyd-George, David

  Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney)

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Lough, Thomas

  Weir, James Galloway

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardig'n

  M'Crae, George

  White, Luke, (York, E. R.)

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Elibank, Master of

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benj.

  Ellis, John Edward

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Evans, Sir F. H. (Maidstone)

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Mr. Crombie and Sir

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries.

  John Leng.

  NOES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Kerr, John

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Jos. C.

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N. R.

  Anstruther, H. T.

  Doogan, P. C.

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Arrol, Sir William

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Atkinson, Right Hon. John

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Hart

  Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Man'r)

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Man'r

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Lundon, W.

  Bowles, T. Gibson (Lynn Regis)

  Flower, Ernest

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W.

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Forster, Henry William

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasg.

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Galloway William Johnson

  Malcolm, Ian

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon J. (Birm

  Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond

  Mount, William Arthur

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A (Worc

  Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute

  Chapman, Edward

  Gordon, Maj Evans (Tr. H'ml'ts

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  O'Dowd, John

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Gretton, John

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E.

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Pease, H. Pike (Darlington)

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord G. (Midd'x

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Heath, James (Staffords. N. W.

  Percy, Earl

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Helder, Augustus

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Denny, Colonel

  Hoult, Joseph

  Purvis, Robert

  Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred

  Randles, John S.

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Johnstone, Heywood

  Redmond, Jn. E. (Waterford)

  Remnant, Jas. Farquharson

  Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks.)

  Worsley-Taylor, Hry. Wilson

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thomson

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Young, Samuel

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Valentia, Viscount

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Hood and Mr. Fellowes.

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Wilson John (Glasgow)

  *MR. MUNRO FERGUSONsaid he should not have moved this new clause if the Bill stood in the form in which it left the Committee upstairs. Some important Amendments had been made in it, and if the Lord Advocate persisted they would be obliged to press this point home. He should have very much preferred that the Bill should have remained as it stood and that the Lord Advocate should have kept to it. This was a clause to check solicitation. The Lord Advocate claimed a right that the justices should express their own opinion for and against this or that application for a licence. Courts dealing with this question should be left alone, and if they were not left alone they could no longer be Courts. He did not think by his proposal that he was taking an exaggerated view of this matter because it was an acknowledged grievance all over the country. He begged to move.
  Clause (Canvassing)—
  "Any person canvassing any member of the licensing authority for a licence shall, on summary conviction before the sheriff, be liable to a penalty not exceeding £100."—(Mr. Munro Ferguson.)
  Brought up and read the first time.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the clause be read a second time."
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid he objected to this clause because it was practically unworkable. He thought the law officers of the Crown sitting near him would agree that they would be placed in a terrible quandary if they had to institute prosecutions under a clause like this.
  SIR ROBERT REIDsaid he was very sorry that the Lord Advocate had
  424
  refused to accept this proposal. The right hon. Gentleman had used upon this point the authority of the Minority and Majority Report, but those Reports did not say that this was a bad clause, and they only expressed the opinion that it might not be workable. They gave no authority on the question of principle, and all they did was to express an opinion as to the practicability of the clause being carried out. He suggested that the difficulty might be met by inserting the word "soliciting" instead of "canvassing." There could be no difficulty if they made it read "any person soliciting any member of a licensing authority for a licence." Common-sense told them that if they used an apt word like "soliciting" there could be no doubt about it. It did not signify whether they regarded the authority of the magistrates as being magisterial or judicial. The fact was that they ought to act impartially and in the interests of the public. To tell him that the scandal of perpetual solicitation on the part of those who wanted licences or on the part of those who wanted to oppose them could not be stopped was really taking a little liberty with one's intelligence. He submitted that it was perfectly easy to do this, and he hoped the Lord Advocate would agree to omit the word "canvassing" and insert "soliciting."
  MR. GALLOWAYsaid the hon. and learned Member for Dumfries Burghs had stated that it was a scandal that persons should canvas any member of the licensing authority for a licence. The logic of the hon. and learned Gentleman's argument was that if it was wrong to solicit for a licence it was equally wrong to solicit against it. That contention was admitted by the hon. and learned Gentleman, but

  425
  the hon. Member who moved the clause did not admit it, nor did he think of it when he moved the clause.
  *MR. MUNRO FERGUSONsaid he accepted that in Grand Committee.
  MR. GALLOWAYsaid that made the case all the worse. If the hon. Member accepted that contention in Grand Committee why did he not put it in the clause on the Notice Paper of the House of Commons? He himself should be very glad to see the suggestion of the hon. and learned Gentleman carried out so that it should be made equally punishable for people to canvass either for or against a licence.
  SIR J. FERGUSSONsaid that in times past he would have had more sympathy with the Amendment proposed by the hon. Member for Leith. The practice of canvassing had been a very great nuisance. The case would now be considerably altered when the licensing duties were entrusted to a select body composed equally of members of the County Council and of county magistrates. If that body were well selected, and if they felt their personal responsibility, the House might feel more confidence that they would not be open to those private influences to which, in too numerous instances, the county magistrates had been open hitherto. While sympathising very much with the grounds of the proposal he did not think the clause necessary in view of the altered position of affairs.
  SIR MARK STEWARTsaid he could not forget that this was a Scotch Bill, and that it had nothing to do with the law in England. It might be said if one measure was passed for Scotland, English Members might feel that some day similar legislation would be proposed for England. He was anxious to see some words inserted which would prevent solicitation. It was notorious that a great deal was done in that way—he did not say with what effect on the magistrates. He was perfectly satisfied, from reports which had reached him, that there were persons unhappily to be found in Scotland who
  426
  would offer inducements to magistrates one way or another, and he therefore appealed to his right hon. friend the Lord Advocate to insert words which would prevent the offering of these inducements. It was a very reasonable suggestion and he was satisfied that it had the support of a large majority of Scotch Members.
  SIR JOHN LENGsaid the right hon. Gentleman the Member for North-East Manchester seemed to think that because the members of the Court were to be reduced the evil which had hitherto existed would not be continued, or, at all events, would not be so badly felt. He feared it would only concentrate on the lesser number what both burgh magistrates and county magistrates had hitherto felt to be an intolerable nuisance. For a week or a fortnight before the Courts were held those who desired to have licences, and those who were afraid of having their licences withdrawn from them, spent their days and nights in canvassing the burgh and county magistrates. It was because this clause was for the suppression of an intolerable nuisance that he would give it his hearty support.
  MR. GROVESsaid the practice of canvassing had been for years an unmitigated and intolerable nuisance. He knew a case where the magistrates had been whipped up to oppose the confirmation of a licence. One of the magistrates had expressed his shame and sorrow to him that he allowed himself to be pledged before the case came before the Court, and added that if he had gone into Court unpledged against the licence he would certainly, on the merits, have voted for the confirmation of the licence. In framing new licensing laws it was very necessary that this long continued evil should be stopped once and for all.
  MR. WALLACEsaid it did seem a remarkable thing if, when both sides of the House were practically at one on this matter, they could not frame a clause to give effect to what they desired. None of them were wedded to the particular words of the Amendment before the House. They did not want a

  427
  one-sided clause forbidding canvassing for, and allowing it against, licences. His hon. friend was willing to accept such an alteration of the clause as the Lord Advocate might desire to cover both cases, and it would be an extraordinary thing if the House were to reject this clause because of the form in which it stood. He suggested that the Lord Advocate should insert words to carry out the intention which had been indicated by hon. Members. The practice of canvassing was a growing evil and a scandal in Scotland, and now that the licensing bodies were to be more restricted in number than before it would be more easy to canvass.
  SIR LEWIS M'IVERsaid this growing evil was one which the Scotch people deprecated, and it ought not to be beyond the power of the House to frame a clause to deal with it. He would gladly leave the Lord Advocate to find words for the purpose. It was not only in the matter of licences, but in other things, that this practice of what he could only call dishonest canvassing and soliciting went on, and every method that could be introduced to suppress the growing impurity ought to be welcomed by such an Assembly as this.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANsaid the Lord Advocate must have been impressed by the unanimity on this subject not only of Scotch, but of English, Members who had spoken. It seemed to be a matter which could be easily adjusted by a little alteration of the words of the proposed clause. He suggested that it should be altered to read in this way. "Any person soliciting any member of the licensing authority in respect of any application for a licence shall, on summary conviction before the sheriff, be liable to a penalty not exceeding £100." General words of that kind would cover the whole object expressed by speaker after speaker. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would see his way to accept some such solution.
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid he had no right to speak again except by leave of the House. The right hon. Gentleman proposed to insert the word "soliciting" instead of "canvassing."
  428
  One could understand what was meant by soliciting for a licence, but it would be argued on the other side that they could not solicit against a licence. Therefore, while hon. Members on the other side of the House were quite willing, frankly and honestly, to insert words like those proposed, the two sides would not be equal. Many people were actuated—he was not saying a word against the perfect integrity of their views—by the notion that they were fulfilling a high duty when as temperance reformers they were doing their best to prevent particular licences being granted. They did so on general principles and not because they had anything to say against A. or B. Were hon. Members who were anxious to have the clause made applicable to both sides prepared to put under £100 penalty every temperance reformer who did what he could with a licensing authority to prevent them from granting any more licences? [Cries of "Yes."] If so, they were prepared to go a great deal farther than he had ever heard them confess before. Should they make the clause more stringent still and say that every person who spoke to a member of a licensing, authority on the subject of a licence should be liable to £100 penalty? People got information from what was said to them by other people, and if a member of a licensing authority was not to be allowed to commune with anybody at all on the question of what licences should or should not be granted, without making that person liable to a penalty, they ought to have a Licensing Court of Trappists who could not talk to anybody. The matter was fraught with difficulty. It was not that he had no sympathy with the idea which had been expressed, but he honestly thought that the alteration they were making in the Court, in having it a small body who were not like the old body that could be whipped up from all parts of the country, would be the real solution of the difficulty. He would have been perfectly willing to accept a clause on the question of bribery, because, although personally he thought bribery was always an offence, there was a decision that pointed the other way. He should have been glad to make it clear by Act of Parliament. He did think that on the whole it was safer not

  429
  to accept the clause proposed by the hon. Member for Leith, but to trust to the ordinary amelioration of the position that would take place in there being a small and well-defined Court instead of a large body of justices who could be whipped up.
  MR. PIKE PEASEsaid he was very sorry at the decision to which the Lord Advocate had come. It appeared to him that a licensing magistrate was in much the same position as a Judge, and that they ought to endeavour to prevent anyone buying up his judgment—for that was what it came to. He thought that the Government should be able to find some words which would express the unanimous wish.
  CAPTAIN SINCLAIRsaid it was difficult for a layman to contest with the Lord Advocate on a point of law or a definition of terms. Very few of them but had had practical experience of this canvassing, and there seemed to be a unanimous opinion on all sides of the House that something should be done in the matter. If the clause passed its Second Reading he proposed to amend it by inserting the words suggested to the Lord Advocate by his right hon. friend—"Any person soliciting any member of the licensing authority in respect of any application for a licence shall," etc.
  MR. PARKER SMITHsaid that it would be exceedingly hard to draw the line between what was a perfectly legitimate giving of information and what was soliciting. He thought that any man sitting in a Licensing Court, who respected himself, would be perfectly able to protect himself against private solicitation. When, by the force of logic, hon. Gentlemen opposite said that they were willing to do as much on one side as on the other, was it conceivable to imagine that they were going to make a man pay a penalty of £100 who in any way expressed himself against the granting of a particular licence? He lived in a village where there was no licensed house at all, and he did not want one, and was he not to be free to say to a licensing magistrate, if he happened to meet him—"The
  430
  village is going on admirably without a licensed house, and I do not want one?" Was he to be open to a penalty of £100 for passing that remark? He should be surprised if the temperance party throughout Scotland accepted that position, and did not use very strong expressions against limiting freedom of conversation outside the Licensing Court.
  *MR. JOHN WILSONsaid that as an employer, having a considerable experience on questions connected with licensing, he had long opposed licences being granted for houses near public works, where they were a very serious source of danger. Two years ago a firm of publicans took him into Court, at an ultimate cost of £200, simply because he had spoken to some of his brother magistrates against granting a licence near his collieries. It was all very well to talk about temperance reformers with biased minds, but that was what happened to an employer who opposed the granting of a licence for the benefit of his workmen, who themselves were all against the licence. He would not be inclined to support the equivalent; though he was quite willing to accept the proposal that a publican who was interested in getting a licence should be punished for soliciting a licensing magistrate. It was the pecuniary interest of a publican to get a licence: it was no interest to an employer to get the licence refused, otherwise than for the benefit of the workmen and their moral welfare.
  MR. BUCHANANsaid he hoped they had not got the last word from the Lord Advocate. This was one of the most important alterations, from a social point of view, that could be made in our licensing system. Anyone who had any experience in the administration of the licensing law could not but be aware of many flagrant cases of influences of the most objectionable kind being brought to bear on the licensing magistrate in favour of an application for a licence. It was no reply to the substance of the Amendment for the Lord Advocate to make of it a reductio ad absurdum. Surely it was not impossible—in fact he knew that it was not—for the skill of the Lord Advocate

  431
  and the right hon. Gentleman at his side to devise a form of words not open to the difficulty the Lord Advocate had suggested.
  SIR J. STIRLING-MAXWELLthought that the Lord Advocate had taken a very wise course in this matter. As a possible member of a licensing authority he looked with great distrust on the clause. He knew that it had been customary in Scotland for applicants for a licence to canvas for votes of magistrates. For his part, if he had the honour of serving in a Licensing Court and a man came to him to ask for his vote he would say to that applicant, "Before you go any further perhaps I
  ought to inform you that I make it a rule to vote against any application for a licence which is accompanied by an unscrupulous canvas of this kind." If he took that course he did not think he would be troubled again.
  MR. SAMUEL YOUNGsaid he hoped the Lord Advocate would stick to his guns. The Amendment was one-sided and might do a great deal of injustice in many respects.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 83; Noes, 146. (Division List No. 143.)

  AYES.

  Asher, Alexander

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J.

  Reid, Sir R. T. (Dumfries)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-

  Russell, T. W.

  Black, Alexander William

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H.

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Bowles, T. G. (Lynn Regis)

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristl, E

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Brown, Geo. M. (Edinburgh)

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Bryce, Right Hon. James

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

  Spear, John Ward

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Joicey, Sir James

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Burt, Thomas

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

  Tennant, Harold John

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glam., E.)

  Caldwell, James

  Lambert, George

  Tomkinson, James

  Cameron, Robert

  Langley, Batty

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Ure, Alexander

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

  Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington)

  Wallace, Robert

  Crombie, John William

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Crooks, William

  Leng, Sir John

  Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Lloyd-George, David

  Wason, E. (Clackmannan)

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

  Lough, Thomas

  Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney)

  Denny, Colonel

  M'Crae, George

  Weir, James Galloway

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinb'rgh, W.

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Edwards, Frank

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benj.

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Elibank, Master of

  Mappin, Sir Fredk. Thorpe

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Ellis, John Edward

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

  Emmott, Alfred

  Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose

  Evans, Sir F. H. (Maidstone)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Palmer, Sir C. M. (Durham)

  Mr. Munro Ferguson and

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Sir Mark Stewart.

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Pease, H. Pike (Darlington)

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  NOES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Bill, Charles

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Ambrose, Robert

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Bull, William James

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Anstruther, H. T.

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Colston, Chas. Edw H. Athole

  Arrol, Sir William

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Glasg.

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Atkinson, Right Hon. John

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.

  Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Jos. C.

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon J. (Birm

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r.)

  Chaplin, Right Hon. Henry

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds)

  Chapman, Edward

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Hart

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Remnant, Jas. Farquharson

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Man'r

  Lawson, Jn. Grant (Yorks. N. R.

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thomson

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  FitzGerald, Sir Robt. Penrose

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

  Flower, Ernest

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Forster, Henry William

  Lucas, Reg'ld J. (Portsmouth)

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Fyler, John Arthur

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Galloway, William Johnson

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Gardner, Ernest

  Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H. E. (Wigt'n

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H. (City of Lond'n

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir Jn. M.

  Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans

  Mitchell, William (Burnley)

  Stroyan, John

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Gordon, Maj Evans (T'r H'mlets

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Eldon

  Mount, William Arthur

  Valentia, Viscount

  Goschen, Hon. Geo. Joachim

  Mowbray, Sir Robt. Gray C.

  Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. H.

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bate

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Gretton, John

  Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry)

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton

  Groves, James Grimble

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Williams, Rt. Hn. J. Powell- (Birm

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  O'Dowd, John

  Wills, Sir Frederick

  Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Ld. G. (Midx

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Wilson, A. S. (York, E. R.)

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick G.

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Wilson John (Glasgow)

  Heath, James (Staffords, N. W.

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Worsley-Taylor, Hry. Wilson

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Helder, Augustus

  Percy, Earl

  Young, Samuel

  Hoult, Joseph

  Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard

  Johnstone, Heywood

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Kemp, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop

  Randles, John S.

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Kerr, John

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Hood and Mr. Fellowes.

  Knowles, Lees

  Redmond, Jn. E. (Waterford)

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  SIR J. STIRLING-MAXWELLsaid that the clause he now moved was taken from the English Act, and had reference to persons found in licensed promises after the hour of closing. The matter was dealt with to some extent under Clause 67, which made it actionable to be found on licensed premises after the hour of closing. He moved the clause both in the interests of temperance and also in the interests of persons conducting licensed houses.
  Clause (Penalty on person found on premises during closing hours)—
  "If, during any period during which any premises are required under the provisions of this Act to be closed, any person is found on such premises, he shall, unless he satisfies the Court that he was an inmate, servant, or a lodger on such premises, or a bonâ fide traveller, or that otherwise his presence on such premises was not in contravention of the provision of this Act with respect to the closing of the licensed premises, be liable to a penalty not exceeding 40s. Any constable may demand the name and address of any person found on any premises during the period during which they are required by the provisions of this Act to be closed, and if he has reasonable ground to suppose that the name and address given is false may require evidence of the
  434
  correctness of such name and address, and may, if such person fail upon such demand to give his name or address or such evidence, apprehend him without warrant and convey him as soon as practicable before a justice of the peace or other magistrate. Any person required by a constable under this section to give his name and address who fails to give the same, or gives a false name and address, or gives false evidence with respect to such name and address, shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding £5.—(Sir J. Stirling-Maxwell.)
  Brought up, and read the first time.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the clause be read a second time."
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid that the fate of the hon. Baronet's clause in Committee was that it was negatived without a division. He hoped its fate on Report would be the same. The similar clause in the English Act had been of no use whatever except to the lawyers. He would put a perfectly simple case to show how the clause would work. A person keeping a hotel had friends. He presumed a hotel-keeper was entitled to have friends. A friend might come to see him and

  435
  remain after the closing hour—say ten o'clock. He would not be an inmate or a servant or a lodger or a bonâ fide traveller. Yet, according to the view of the hon. Baronet, the hotel-keeper would be obliged to turn his friend into the street at ten o'clock. Surely the hotel-keeper might be allowed a little time to indulge in intellectual recreation after the heavy work of inn-keeping during the day. He thought the clause would not check any abuse, although it might lead to many cases being argued in the Courts.
  Question put and negatived.
  MR. CALLOWAYsaid that the object of the clause he would now move was to place railway refreshment rooms in Scotland in exactly the position they were in England. He did not deny that there was a good deal to be said on both sides of the question. There was much to be said for the clause on the ground of convenience. As he understood the objection to the clause, it was that it might lead to a great deal of abuse by persons being allowed to purchase a penny ticket and then get drink at the railway refreshment rooms when the public houses were closed. That was an evil which the House should not do anything to continue; but he thought the accounts which had been given of what happened in Scotland in that respect had been greatly exaggerated. He did not think that many persons would take the trouble to go to a railway station and purchase a ticket in order to get drink. But the railway companies would not be compelled to open their refreshment rooms; if they were, there might be a great deal of force in what he might call the penny-railway-ticket argument. He moved the clause in the interests of the travelling public. It worked well in England; and he did not see how it could work any harm in Scotland. If the railway companies found that the clause was being availed of by persons purchasing penny tickets they could put up the price of the tickets and preclude any such possibility taking place.
  Clause (Exemption of Railway Stations)—
  "Nothing in this Act contained as to hours of closing shall preclude the sale at any time
  436
  at a railway station of excisable liquors to persons arriving at or departing from such station by railroad."—(Mr. Galloway.)
  Brought up and read the first time.
  Motion made and Question proposed, "That the clause be read a second time."
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid that the fate of this clause in Committee was that it was defeated by seventeen votes to sixteen. He himself voted in the minority. It seemed to him that there were certain stations in Scotland where there ought to be facilities for the sale of liquor. He would instance Perth, where people arrived very often after a tedious journey; and it was really very inconvenient that they should not be allowed to be served with liquor on such occasions. On the other hand, there were stations such as the Central Station at Glasgow where it would be inadvisable that liquor should be sold after the public houses had been shut. If the railway companies found that such a station was being turned into an ordinary public house, for their own protection they should cease to supply liquor when the public houses were closed. Having regard to his own view to alter the Bill as little as possible he would not propose to take any strictly Government part in the division. He should repeat his vote in Committee in favour of the clause, but he should leave the hon. Member to persuade the House to vote for it without the assistance of the Government.
  SIR ROBERT REIDsaid it came back to this. Where they had private premises in a particular borough were they to regulate them for the inhabitants of the borough or for the purposes of convenience of fifteen or twenty persons a week who might want to get a drink after ten o'clock at night. These refreshment rooms belonged to railway companies, but were not managed by them, they were often sub-let, and it was quite impossible for those who managed them to know whether the persons who came and asked for drink were persons who had arrived or who were about to depart from the station. The result would be that indiscriminate use would be made of these refreshment rooms by

  437
  persons for whom they were not intended. Where public houses were closed at ten o'clock these refreshment rooms would be open until eleven or after for the convenience of persons coming through by train. They must take into consideration what were the worst evils. In the one case this clause might go far to do away with all the good of early closing all over Scotland, and in the other, there was the convenience of a few gentlemen travelling North. Such a clause would be intolerable. The Lord Advocate had said very fairly he did not wish to regard this Amendment as a Government Amendment, and he (Sir Robert Reid) hoped that all the Scottish Members would vote against it.
  SIR J. FERGUSSONsaid he spoke from frequent experience of the hardship as it stood. The magistrates of Scotland had, within certain limits, power to shorten the hours during which licensed premises might remain open. It constantly happened that people arriving at large stations by late trains were unable to get even a cup of tea or coffee because the refreshment room was not allowed to be open owing to excisable liquors being sold there. That was a monstrous hardship. Real travellers ought not to be debarred from getting refreshments under such circumstances. He thought the proposal was a reasonable one and would support it.
  *SIR HERBERT MAXWELLsaid he could assure the House that, on the railway of which he had been a director for thirteen years, none of the refreshment rooms were sub-let to any contractor. They were all under the hotel management. He would also point out that railway companies did not keep these bars in order to make a profit out of them, but as a convenience for their passengers, who were the customers of these bars. In any case where doubt arose about the bona fides of a customer, he might be called upon to show his railway ticket. He thought sufficient had been said to justify the demand on the part of the Scotch railways and he should support the clause.
  MR. MUNRO FERGUSONsaid he hoped this clause would not be put into the Bill. Unless a passenger wanted a bottle of whiskey at six in the morning, which was the worst time of the day he could take it, he could get all he wanted from the refreshment car. There were abuses to be considered in this matter. Waverley Station was often over-crowded, especially at night, with persons who had been drinking somewhere if not in the refreshment room. On many occasions the condition of Waverley Station was not at all what it ought to be, and this clause, if included in the Bill, would not tend to decrease the overcrowding. For his part he hoped the Bill would remain as it was.
  MR. CORBETTsaid he hoped the clause would not be carried. He thought that those who only considered the convenience of the traveller getting liquor when he wanted it, did not regard the magnitude of the problem before them. That was surely a trifle compared to the wellbeing of the Scottish people.
  MR. GRETTONsaid they had had some experience of refreshment bars in England, and that experience did not lead them to anticipate any of those violent evils which some were afraid would occur in Scotland. The railway companies were interested in their property and would see that it was not deteriorated by mismanagement. He did not think there would be any greater iniquity if this was enforced in Scotland than there was in England. It seemed to him a great hardship that travellers should not be able to obtain such refreshments as they required.
  SIR MARK STEWARTsaid he was a director for eighteen years of a very small line of railway, and upon that line of railway no liquor was ever allowed to be sold, but he did not notice in consequence that the conditions of travelling were bad, whilst the conditions of the railway stations were distinctly different to those on other lines. There was a very great temptation to railway servants to go

  439
  into a railway bar and drink. Drink was given them by passengers, and disastrous consequences sometimes ensued.
  Question put.
  The House divided: Ayes, 148; Noes 117. (Division List No. 144.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F.

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Mitchell, William (Burnley)

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Flower, Ernest

  Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Forster, Henry William

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

  Morton, Arthur H. Aymler

  Anstruther, H. T.

  Fyler, John Arthur

  Mowbray, Sir Robt. Gray C.

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Gardner, Ernest

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

  Garfit, William

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond

  O'Dowd, John

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

  Gordon, Maj. Evans- (Tr. Hml'ts

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey

  Gore, Hn. G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds)

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- (Linc)

  Purvis, Robert

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj.

  Goschen, Hon. Geo. Joachim

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Beach, Rt. Hon. Sir M. Hicks

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Redmond, Jn. E. (Waterford)

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Gretton John

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Bill, Charles

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Brassey, Albert

  Groves, James Grimble

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Bull, William James

  Gunter, Sir Robert

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Ld. G. (Midx

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick G.

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Heath, James (Staffs., N. W.)

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm

  Helder, Augustus

  Seely, Mj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Chaplin, Right Hon. Henry

  Johnstone, Heywood

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Chapman, Edward

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Kerr, John

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Knowles, Lees

  Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs)

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool

  Sturt, Hn. Humphrey Napier

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N. R.

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Valentia, Viscount

  Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

  Leveson-Gower, (Frederick N. S.

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Joseph C.

  Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Williams, Rt. Hn. J. Powell- (Birm

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Hart

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft

  Wills, Sir Frederick

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Lucas, Reg'ld J. (Portsmouth)

  Wilson, A. S. (York, E. R.)

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks.)

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Worsley-Taylor, Hry. Wilson

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Ed.

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W.

  Young, Samuel

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Man'r

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Malcolm, Ian

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Mr. Galloway and Earl

  Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

  Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H. E. (Wig'n

  of Dalkeith.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  NOES.

  Arrol, Sir William

  Bryce, Right Hon. James

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasg.)

  Asher, Alexander

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Burt, Thomas

  Crombie, John William

  Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbt. Hy.

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Crooks, William

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Caldwell, James

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Cameron, Robert

  Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgw

  Denny, Colonel

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Black, Alexander William

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Douglas Charles M. (Lanark)

  Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Dunn, Sir William

  Brown, Geo. M. (Edinburgh)

  Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E.

  Edwards, Frank

  Elibank, Master of

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Spear, John Ward

  Ellis, John Edward

  Leng, Sir John

  Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart

  Emmott, Alfred

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Stroyan, John

  Evans, Sir F. H. (Maidstone)

  M'Crae, George

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire)

  Tennant, Harold John

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.

  Mappin, Sir Fredk. Thorpe

  Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, E.)

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glam., E.)

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose

  Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Eldon

  Mount, William Arthur

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick

  Orr-Ewing, (Charles Lindsay

  Toulmin, George

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Palmer, Sir C. M. (Durham)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-

  Partington, Oswald

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Ure, Alexander

  Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley)

  Pease, H. Pike (Darlington)

  Wallace, Robert

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Percy, Earl

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristl, E.

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Wason, E. (Clackmannan)

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Weir, James Galloway

  Hoult, Joseph

  Price, Robert John

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

  Randles, John S.

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Joicey, Sir James

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Jones, David B. (Swansea)

  Reid, Sir. R. Threshie (Dumfries

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Kemp, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Labouchere, Henry

  Russell, T. W.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Langley, Batty

  Samuel, Herbt. L. (Cleveland)

  Mr. Munro Ferguson and

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Sir Charles Renshaw.

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington)

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Clause added to the Bill.
  MR. CROMBIE, who had given notice of an Amendment to omit "and Appeal Courts" from the heading to Part I., asked whether the retention of the word "appeal" would preclude him from moving the omission of Clause 4? If not, he would not detain the House by moving the Amendment.
  *MR. SPEAKERsaid the words were not so far a part of the Bill that their retention would preclude the hon. Member moving the omission of Clause 4.
  Mr. CROMBIEsaid in that case he would move the second Amendment of which he had given notice—viz., to substitute "authorities" for "Courts" in line 6. Many Members had a suspicion of the word "Courts," as it represented a new departure. In an important licensing case the decision had turned on whether or not the licensing body was a Court, and the point was decided in the negative. For the reasons which had been given they preferred the word "authority."
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 1, line 10, to leave out the word 'Courts,' and insert the word 'authorities.'"—(Mr. Crombie.)
  Question proposed. "That the word 'Courts' stand part of the Bill."
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid that if the word "Court" did not stand "authority" would not do. They had taken the word "Court," because it was the ordinary word in Scotland used in every newspaper, used by the Judges, and in the judicial statistics. He did not think hon. Members opposite could produce a single Scottish newspaper in which the proceedings of the licensing bodies had been called anything else but a licensing Court. Of course it was not a Court of law, but there was a judicial discretion to be exercised by the magistrate who sat upon the new body. He assured the House that not only was the word "Court" the word which had always been used, but it was the most convenient, and he hoped that they would not alter the term.
  SIR ROBERT REIDsaid he did not want to make too much of this Amendment, but at the same time it was rather important. The Lord Advocate had told them that if they looked in Scotch newspapers or consulted the opinions of Scotch Judges or looked at the judicial statistics

  443
  they would see that the word used was "Court." The right hon. Gentleman had omitted to say that there had never been any statute in which this body had been called a Court and it had never been so called in any Act of Parliament. What was the reason for the change? He did not think they ought to pay much attention to what term newspaper reporters employed in this matter. The word "Court." seemed to mean something in the nature of a judicial tribunal. Some question arose in regard to the functions of this tribunal in the English Courts, and great stress was laid upon the circumstances that it was not called a Court in the Act of Parliament, and the Judges pointed out that if it had been called a Court some different construction might have been arrived at. The question whether this was called a Court or not, might have some effect upon the application of the general law. He did not think it was unreasonable to entertain some apprehension as to what might occur if the inexplicable practice of using understood terms were not to be abandoned in favour of other words.
  SIR J. FERGUSSONasked the hon. and learned Gentleman what sort of a Court he considered Quarter Sessions was. Cases of this kind often came before Quarter Sessions, and now it was proposed to substitute another term.
  *MR. MCCRAEsaid he hoped the Lord Advocate would meet them upon this point, as there was considerable feeling with regard to the danger of putting another interpretation upon the word "Court." In a deputation which waited on the Secretary for Scotland, opinion was unanimous as to the danger of this change, and he understood that the Lord Advocate was at one with them and the general feeling of the House upon the merits of the question. The Lord-Advocate told them that the word "authorities" was not the proper word to use, but he did not tell them why. Surely he could supply a word instead of "Court," which would not have the danger, and which would not lead to litigation in the future. Seeing that they were at one upon the merits of the question with the Lord Advocate, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would allow this change to be made.
  MR. WHITTAKERsaid this was a vital matter, because these authorities did not sit as Courts. The Lord Chancellor had pointed out that these bodies sat as a meeting and not as a Court. Before this change was made, they ought to know what was the object of making it. If this clause passed as it stood it would be held that licensing authorities sat as Courts and acted judicially. Such a contention was absolutely contrary to the law, because they did not sit as Judges to decide, or as a Court, and they ought to know what the object of the Government was in insisting upon this change. There was not an Act of Parliament in Scotland, and no licensing Act which described these bodies as sitting as Courts, and to give them the name of "Court" would go a long way towards making them into Courts, and therefore this was a vital matter in regard to the administration of the licensing laws.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELLpointed out that when the Prime Minister was called upon to defend the language he used about the licensing magistrates he defended it upon the express grounds that they did not constitute a Court.
  MR. ASQUITHsaid it might be argued that this was a matter of phraseology, but it was a change of phraseology which might well be held to mark a new departure indicated by the legislature by the selection for the first time of a term like this. Here they were constituting a new body and they proposed to give to it a designation which he thought must be interpreted by any tribunal afterwards as implying the exercising of judicial functions. That was a designation which was wholly inappropriate to describe the functions of the licensing authority. There was no litigation and no parties, and the matter was an administrative one to be determined in a judicial manner. Therefore, it was a most undesirable thing to start this new departure, which suggested that the new bodies that they were going to call into existence were judicial tribunals.
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYpointed out that they had to give notice in such appeals to the opposite party.
  MR. WALLACEsaid he understood from the Lord Advocate that after this Act was passed those who were members of this so-called Court who had private knowledge of their own and information in regard to the locality to lay before their colleagues, could not do so unless it was offered as evidence before the Court, He did not think the Lord Advocate was right in imposing upon the authorities he wished to create, the obligation of acting as a Court of law, and deciding upon evidence placed before it. That was one thing which they had always protested against. It appeared to him that it was intended by a side wind to enact that, in future, magistrates should be restricted simply to listening to evidence, and would not be allowed to bring private information which they had received in connection with the locality before their colleagues. This would introduce an entirely new state of things into Scotland, which a great majority of hon. Members were not prepared for. Therefore Scotch Members were justified in strongly protesting against a change which seemed to them unnecessary.
  MR. HUNTER CRAIGsaid that when a deputation waited upon the Secretary for Scotland some time ago he assured them that the use of the word "Court" did not mean an alteration of the constitution of the licensing authority. He hoped the Lord Advocate would not persist in using the word "Court," thereby limiting the powers of the licensing authority. In this consolidating Bill the word "Court" appeared about 180 times. Why not use the word authority?
  COLONEL DENNYasked whether the word "Court" would bring about a change in the procedure of the licensing bodies.
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: No.
  SIR JOHN LENGsaid he wished to point out two remarkable facts. In connection with the Licensing Commission, which sat three or four years ago, the tribunals that disposed of licences were never spoken of as Courts. Not only so, but in the Bill passed two years ago dealing with the licensing question in England
  446
  this word was not applied as it was applied in this Bill. As to its being a question of phraseology, he thought the Lord Advocate in Grand Committee much more definitely repudiated the idea that this was to be a Court in the ordinary sense than he had done in the House to-day. He would be satisfied if the Lord Advocate would repeat in the House what he said in Grand Committee. Then that would stand in the reports of this House.
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid he would be most happy to repeat in the House what he said in Grand Committee—namely, that the use of the word "Court" was not intended to in any way trench upon the absolute discretion of the licensing bodies. They were entitled not only to act upon evidence but also on their own general information as to the merits of the case. He could not see how any question of legal interpretation could arise on the word "Court" at all.
  MR. CALDWELLsaid the word "Court" was a misnomer here. In the case of an application for a licence they proceeded on the footing that the sale of intoxicating liquor was prohibited and that the law sanctioned the granting of a licence to a certain individual to meet the requirements of a certain locality. He therefore thought that the Court of First Instance was not a Court in the ordinary sense of the term. He quite admitted that the word Court was so frequently used that the meeting of the magistrates or justices had come to be regarded as a Court. At the same time he did not think that a matter of this kind should be determined by a word which had cropped up accidentally. He ventured to say that in a statute, Parliament generally used language appropriate to the purpose. Here they were dealing with a case where the granting of licences was a power conferred on the licensing authority. A person who applied for a licence had no legal right to a licence, and he could make no complaint if the application was refused. The power of granting or refusing was entirely vested in the justices, and they were not bound to give any reason why

  447
  they refused a licence. The Lord Advocate had referred to the term "Appeal Court" in the Home Drummond Act, but that was a different matter. It was quite possible that there might be an Appeal Court in connection with which certain procedure had to be taken as to the serving of intimation and the hearing of parties, but there was nothing analogous to that, in the granting of licences in the first instance. He believed the Government desired to introduce the thin end of the wedge so that eventually the licensing authority, instead of having the absolute
  discretion it had now, would be hedged about with statutory restrictions by which it should only be able on certain grounds to refuse the renewal of licences. That was the meaning of the use of the word Court, but it was absolutely inappropriate to the body dealing with an application where no one had any absolute claim.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 206; Noes, 90. (Division List, No. 145)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N. R.

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Hart

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Anstruther, H. T.

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Arrol, Sir William

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Atkinson, Right Hon. John

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Man'r

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Lowe, Francis William

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

  Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lowther, Rt. Hon. Jas. (Kent)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Man'r

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth)

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey

  Forster, Henry William

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.)

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Fyler, John Arthur

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Bartley, Sir George C. T.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W.

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj.

  Gardner, Ernest.

  M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire)

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Garfit, William

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Bill, Charles

  Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond

  Malcolm, Ian

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & N'rn

  Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H. E. (Wigt'n

  Bowles, Col. Henry F. (Midd'x)

  Gore, Hn. G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Brassey, Albert

  Gore, Hn. S. F. Ormsby- (Linc

  Mitchell, William (Burnley)

  Bull, William James

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Eldon

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Goschen, Hon. Geo. Joachim

  Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.)

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Gretton, John

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Groves, James Grimble

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc)

  Gunter, Sir Robert

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute

  Chapman, Edward

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Myers, William Henry

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Ld. G. (Midx

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick G.

  O'Dowd, John

  Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E.

  Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley)

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Colston, Chas. Edw H. Athole

  Heath, James (Staffs., N. W.)

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Cox, Irwin Edwd. Bainbridge

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Pease, H. Pike (Darlington)

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Helder, Augustus

  Peel, Hn. Wm. R. Wellesley

  Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Percy, Earl

  Cullinan, J.

  Hoult, Joseph

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Denny, Colonel

  Johnstone, Heywood

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

  Kemp, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Kenyon-Slaney Col. W. (Salop

  Purvis, Robert

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Kerr, John

  Randles, John S.

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Jos. O.

  Knowles, Lees

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Lambton, Hon. Fredk. Wm.

  Redmond, Jn. E. (Waterford)

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Remnant, Jas. Farquharson

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Spear, John Ward

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunt'n

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thomson

  Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)

  Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts)

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Williams, Rt. Hn. J. Powell- (Birm

  Roche, John

  Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Wills, Sir Frederick

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Stroyan, John

  Wilson, A. S. (York, E. R.)

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Wilson John (Glasgow)

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Sturt, Hn. Humphrey Napier

  Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks.)

  Sadler, Col. Saml. Alexander

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Worsley-Taylor, Hry. Wilson

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Young, Samuel

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln

  Ure, Alexander

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew

  Valentia, Viscount

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir W. H.

  Hood and Mr. Fellowes.

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  NOES.

  Asher, Alexander

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.

  Russell, T. W.

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Samuel, Herbt. L. (Cleveland)

  Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbt. Hy.

  Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas Seale

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (Northants

  Black, Alexander William

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristl, E.

  Tennant, Harold John

  Brown, Geo. M. (Edinburgh)

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, E.)

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glam., E.)

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea)

  Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

  Burt, Thomas

  Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Langley, Batty

  Toulmin, George

  Caldwell, James

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Cameron, Robert

  Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasg.

  Leng, Sir John

  Wason, E. (Clackmannan)

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark

  M'Crae, George

  Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney

  Crooks, William

  Mappin, Sir Fredk. Thorpe

  Weir, James Galloway

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardign

  Mellor, Rt. Hn. John William

  Whiteley, G. (York, W. R.)

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Dunn, Sir William

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Wilson, Chas. H. (Hull, W.)

  Edwards, Frank

  Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Elibank, Master of

  Partington, Oswald

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf'd

  Ellis, John Edward

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Emmott, Alfred

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Evans, Sir F. H. (Maidstone)

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Evans, Saml. T. (Glamorgan)

  Price, Robert John

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries)

  Mr. Crombie and Mr.

  Fenwick, Charles

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Wallace.

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith

  Robson, William Snowdon

  SIR ROBERT REIDmoved as an Amendment—
  "Clause 2, page 1, line 13, after 'royal,' insert 'or.'"
  The purport of his Amendment was to preserve to Royal and Parliamentary burghs the same powers in regard to licences which they now enjoyed. All the Royal burghs in Scotland had, from the earliest times since licensing was known, had the privilege of their own magistrates being the licensing authority. The Bill proposed that that privilege should be entirely destroyed in burghs with less than 7,000 of population.
  450
  The Lord Advocate had an Amendment on the Paper to substitute 4,000 for 7,000, but he thought the law should remain as it had always been. The fact that it had always been so, might fairly be urged as a reason for continuing it, unless there was a substantial or fair-reasoned ground against the continuance. Could it be shown that these powers had been abused in the Royal burghs? He did not understand that that was so. The only observation which the Lord Advocate had, in the Committee upstairs, made against his proposal was, that it was supported by hon.

  451
  Members who had some of these burghs in their constituencies. To make an observation of that kind was to strike at the root of all representative government. He could say for his own constituency that he had never heard of any suggestion of any impropriety being committed by the magistrates in any of these burghs, nor had he ever heard of any gentleman who had made such a complaint. He had been subjected to no pressure in this matter; in fact, he had had only one communication from his constituency. He said deliberately that if a case could be made out that these powers had been abused in the past, or were likely to be abused in the future, he would not vote to maintain things as they were. He attached to his argument another consideration. He believed in small licensing districts; they were, he contended, most effective; for in great districts they required to depend on inspectors and the like.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 1, line 13, after the word 'royal,' to insert the word 'or:"—(Sir Robert Reid.)
  Question put, "That the word 'or' be there inserted in the Bill."
  The EARL OF DALKEITHsaid he hoped the Lord Advocate would give a more favourable consideration to this Amendment than to the last. There was a great difference between now and when the matter was discussed in Committee upstairs. At that time there was a provision restricting licensing Courts to burghs containing a population of, or exceeding, 7,000, but the Lord Advocate had put down an Amendment changing 7,000 to 4,000. Why the right hon. Gentleman arrived at that particular figure he did not know. He quite admitted that there might be some reason against continuing the powers to very small burghs. He certainly would prefer the Amendment of his hon. and learned friend; but if the Lord Advocate could not accept that, he hoped he would be able to accept another Amendment.
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid he hoped that they had now arrived at the end of a very long discussion. The hon.
  452
  and learned Member who moved the Amendment knew very well that the scheme of the Bill, as introduced, was to have licensing districts of a certain acknowledged size. He was entirely against the hon. and learned Member in his preference for small licensing districts. He did not think that anything was to be gained by having them. If there was to be any change, he thought the Government would sympathise more with the Amendment of the hon. Member for Leith Burghs raising the standard, rather than with the Amendment of the hon. and learned Member. They, however, thought that, having regard to the circumstances of the country, that would be going too far. They selected a population basis of 7,000 because that figure had been already employed in various other departments of local government. He would remind the hon. and learned Member that although population was a fair test of the size of a town, it was no test as regarded the size of a country district, because where there was a sparse population there might be a great extent of country. He himself preferred the original proposal in the Bill; but a great deal of pressure from hon. Members on both sides of the House was brought to bear on the Government to give at least some consideration to these ancient burghs which had had in the past a licensing authority. He congratulated the hon. and learned Member for Dumfries on the fact that the discussion upstairs and in the House had developed in him a latent conservatism which at some future date might be of great service to the country at large. He had most carefully considered the matter; and the Amendment which stood in his name represented the whole length he was able to go on behalf of the Government. In the case of Royal and Parliamentary burghs he was prepared to reduce the limit to 4,000; and beyond that he really could not go. He was against the hon. and learned Member in his predilection for small areas. He would not say anything about corruption; but the statistics as to the number of licences granted in small areas certainly threw a doubt as to whether it was not better to have larger areas, and consequently a larger amount of public opinion.
  SIR ROBERT REIDsaid that according to the representations which he had received it was the county magistrates that prevented the smaller burghs reducing the number of public houses in their areas.
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid that was a matter of individual fact on which he could not, at the moment, give an answer one way or the other. It was not only his opinion, but the opinion of many others, that they would secure a better policy by having larger areas. The determination of the Government must be taken to be the Amendment which stood in his name, which proposed to retain the 7,000 limit as regarded burghs in general while reducing it in the case of Royal and Parliamentary burghs to 4,000.
  MR. ASHERsaid he would support the Amendment of his hon. and learned friend. No doubt the Amendment raised a question of considerable principle. The Lord Advocate had announced that he was prepared to reduce the limit in the case of Royal and Parliamentary burghs to 4,000; and he tendered his thanks for that. But the Amendment raised the general question as to whether there should be any population limit at all in regard to licensing. He supported the Amendment because, in his opinion, population had nothing to do with the matter. The proper test was whether a community, existing as a unit of local administration, with the power of regulating its own affairs in regard to local matters such as taxation, water supply, gas and everything connected with the social affairs of the community, should be deprived of the power of regulating the number of public houses in its own area. He had heard no intelligible reason assigned as to why such a community should or should not have that power according to a population basis. If experience had shown that these communities had abused their power, that would be an excellent reason for withdrawing it from them; but it was conceded on all hands that nothing could be said against the manner in which they had exercised their power in the past. The proposal was a mere arbitrary rule. It was said that for the administration
  454
  of the Contagious Diseases Acts and the police, large areas were found to be more convenient; but that did not apply in the matter of licences. The question was whether an outside authority should be brought in for the purpose of controlling the number of licensed houses in a particular burgh. Burghs which existed as units of administration should be allowed to control the matter in the future as in the past.
  SIR MARK STEWARTsaid that in his county there were several Royal burghs; and his experience of many years on the licensing bench was that they were anxious to keep at a fair limit the public houses within their precincts. Very often when the burgh magistrates refused to renew licences, they were afterwards granted by the county magistrates. Therefore, it was hardly fair that burghs which did their duty in the past should have their privileges taken away from them. He hoped the Lord Advocate had not said the last word in the matter. He would suggest to his hon. and learned friend to withdraw his Amendment, and to bring the matter to an issue on the Lord Advocate's Amendment.
  MR. MUNRO FERGUSONsaid he was in favour of large areas, not because he impugned for a moment the purity of past administration on the part of smaller burghs, but because he wanted to clear the way for the abolition of the Appeal Courts, which were worse than useless. Again, if they had to give compensation, and that was a thing the House would have shortly to consider, it was much easier to deal with a large area than a small one. These were all very important conditions, because they must remember that the value of licences had grown considerably during the last ten years.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANsaid the view he took was that the consideration which ought to govern them in this matter was whether there was an adequate local knowledge of the circumstances and requirements of the burgh on the part of those who administered the licensing law. In all these small burghs the justices and town councils had complete control of all the public houses. They were

  455
  going to take this particular department of licensing away from them, and he did not know why. They were to be superseded by some authority some considerable distance away, who had no adequate knowledge of the wishes and requirements of the inhabitants. For his part he would leave the whole of these licensing burghs the powers they possessed. He did not rest his argument on the question of dignity, though that ground might be very well be taken. Something was due, for instance, to such a small burgh as Culross, which was in his charge. It would not be difficult to make a very plausible argument in favour of Culross as having more largely affected the prosperity and influence of Scotland than any other place. What had given Scotland the advantage she possessed over the southern country. Some said it was her education, but really it had been the food. It was well-known that oatmeal produced strong, stalwart and intelligent men, and the Scotch lived upon oatmeal, and for many years the staple industry of Culross was the making of girdles, which he might explain had no relation whatever to the goddess Venus, and were no part of a lady's attire, but were those round iron plates which were used for toasting oaten cakes upon. Yet the Lord Advocate was going to take away from this ancient burgh the little power it had to control its own liquor traffic, He did not, however, take that ground; he went upon the other ground altogether of local knowledge and local interest. He thought it was unfortunate to take away from these little burghs the local powers they had never misused, and he did not see that anybody could be benefited by its being done.
  MR. ASQUITHsaid he was also bound to join in this appeal. The county of Fife, as was well known, had a larger number of Royal burghs than any other county in Scotland. They were mostly represented by an hon. Member whom he saw sitting opposite. The small residue he represented himself. He did not think they had to apologise in any way for putting forward the case of those burghs, which by this Bill were going to be deprived of the powers they had enjoyed for so many years, and which they had never misused. It had never been
  456
  argued for a moment that they had ever misused their powers, and he thought this clause was utterly illogical and from the point of view of administration totally incomprehensible, because while they retained to these burghs administrative powers in every other case they took away from them the power of licensing, a power in which local knowledge was absolutely requisite. He looked upon this as a most retrograde step.
  SIR J. FERGUSSONsaid the chief argument for not leaving the licensing question in the hands of these smaller burghs was that they would be carried out by larger and more responsible bodies less subject to local influence.
  CAPTAIN SINCLAIRcould not see any reason for drawing a distinction between Royal and other burghs in this matter. Population was a wrong basis to go upon; it was continually changing, and whether it was a hundred or so below or above a certain limit could make no radical difference in the quality of the administration. The effect of the clause would be to deprive self-governing communities of popular rights and privileges which they now enjoyed. If the Bill really secured popular representative control of licensing he would not press his objection so strongly, but many communities which at present had control of their streets, gas, and water, and possessed police Courts in which convictions for licensing offences could be secured, would be unable to grant licences, and that did not appear to be a logical position. The people resident in police burghs were not distinguishable from those in Royal or Parliamentary burghs, and this curtailment of popular rights and privileges was a retrograde step against which he desired to enter a strong protest.
  Mr. EUGENE WASONsupported the Amendment, and contended that it would be a great hardship to take away privileges which had been so long enjoyed. Any concession made to the Royal and Parliamentary burghs ought equally to be made in the case of police burghs.
  MR. BUCHANANsaid that, while the Amendment he had placed on the Paper was more logical than the one under discussion, inasmuch as it really rested on a principle, yet he should certainly support his hon. and learned friend. Everything possible ought to be done to promote the independence of burghs, whether Royal or police. Not only was he opposed to the taking away of privileges which had been enjoyed and exercised without suggestion of misuse for so many years, but he was in favour of extending like powers to similar burghs throughout
  Scotland. The best expression of democratic government was to be found in the burghs of Scotland, and more authority ought to be given instead of that at present possessed being taken away. He was in favour of the authorities being given the powers, and they then could be held responsible for the condition of their burghs.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 97, Noes, 226. (Division List No. 146.)

  AYES.

  Asher, Alexander

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Price, Robert John

  Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbt. Hy.

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J.

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nrn

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey

  Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick

  Russell, T. W.

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Black, Alexander William

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tyd

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart

  Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Brigg, John

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glam., E.)

  Brown, Geo. M. (Edinburgh)

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristl, E.

  Thomas, F. Freeman (Hastings)

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

  Tomkinson, James

  Burt, Thomas

  Joicey, Sir James

  Toulmin, George

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

  Ure, Alexander

  Caldwell, James

  Jones, W. (Carnarvonshire)

  Wallace, Robert

  Cameron, Robert

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington)

  Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasg.)

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

  Leng, Sir John

  Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney)

  Crooks William

  Leveson-Gower, Fredk. N. S.

  Weir, James Galloway

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Lloyd-George, David

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardign

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall

  Whiteley, G. (York, W. R.)

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  M'Crae, George

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Dunn, Sir William

  Mappin, Sir Fredk. Thorpe

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Edwards, Frank

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Wilson, Chas. H. (Hull, W.)

  Elibank, Master of

  Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H. E. (Wigt'n

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf'd)

  Ellis, John Edward

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Emmott, Alfred

  Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose

  Evans, Sir F. H. (Maidstone)

  Palmer, Sir C. M. (Durham)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Evans, Saml. T. (Glamorgan)

  Partington, Oswald

  Sir Robert Reid and Earl

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Paulton, James Mellor

  of Dalkeith

  Fenwick, Charles

  Philipps, John Wynford

  NOES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Bartley, Sir George C. T.

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc

  Arrol, Sir William

  Bigwood, James

  Chapman, Edward

  Atkinson, Right Hon. John

  Bill, Charles

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir H.

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Bowles, Col. Henry F. (Midd'x)

  Coddington, Sir William

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Brassey, Albert

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Bull, William James

  Colston, Chas. Edw H. Athole

  Balcarres, Lord

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Man'r

  Butcher, John George

  Cox, Irwin Edwd. Bainbridge

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Kerr, John

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Cullinan, J.

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge

  Denny, Colonel

  Knowles, Lees

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thomson

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Lambton, Hon. Fredk. Wm.

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

  Robertson, H. (Hackney)

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool

  Roche, John

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph C.

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N. R.

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Doogan, P. C.

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir J. E.

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Sadler, Col. Saml. Alexander

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Hart

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Lowe, Francis William

  Seely, Chas. Hilton (Lincoln)

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Lowther, Rt. Hon. Jas. (Kent)

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Lucas, Reg'ld J. (Portsmouth)

  Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks.

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Spear, John Ward

  Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W.

  Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire)

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  FitzGerald, Sir Robt. Penrose

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir Jn. M.

  Flower, Ernest

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Stroyan, John

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Forster, Henry William

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Sturt, Hn. Humphrey Napier

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

  Mitchell, William (Burnley)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Fyler, John Arthur

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Tennant, Harold John

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Gardner, Ernest

  Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.)

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Garfit, William

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Valentia, Viscount

  Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans

  Mount, William Arthur

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Gore, Hn. G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop

  Mowbray, Sir Robt. Gray C.

  Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir W. H.

  Gore, Hn. S. F. Ormsby- (Linc

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Goschen, Hon. Geo. Joachim

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Webb, Col. William George

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Myers, William Henry

  Welby, Lt.-Col A. C. E. (Taunt'n

  Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

  Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts)

  Gretton, John

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne)

  Groves, James Grimble

  O'Dowd, John

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Williams, Rt. Hn. J. Powell- (Birm

  Gunter, Sir Robert

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Wills, Sir Frederick

  Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Ld. G. (Midx

  Pease, H. Pike (Darlington)

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Hamilton, Marq. of (Londondy

  Peel, Hn. Wm. R. Wellesley

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick G.

  Percy, Earl

  Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks.)

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley)

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Worsley-Taylor, Hry. Wilson

  Heath, James (Staffs., N. W.)

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Yerburgh, Robt. Armstrong

  Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm

  Purvis, Robert

  Young, Samuel

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred

  Randles, John S.

  Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Johnstone, Heywood

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Kemp, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Hood and Mr. Fellowes.

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop

  Remnant, Jas. Farquharson

  MR. EUGENE WASONsaid that by his Amendment he was simply pleading for the same treatment to be meted out to the police burghs as to the Royal and Parliamentary burghs. Although the right hon. Gentleman had done something for the Royal and Parliamentary burghs, up to the present he had done nothing for the police burghs. There
  460
  were forty-six Royal burghs, and ten of them would have the power they already possessed and would retain the privilege of being their own licensing authority. Of the police burghs exempted there were ninety-nine, and if his Amendment were carried it would give in addition twenty-four police burghs, or practically the very same for the police burghs which

  461
  the Lord Advocate by his Amendment had given to the Royal and Parliamentary burghs. He had received a considerable number of letters on this subject and he would have liked to make the number much larger. As the Lord Advocate met them fairly upstairs he thought he would not be disposed to object to treating these burghs in the same way as the Royal and Parliamentary burghs.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 1, line 14, to leave out the word 'seven, and insert the word 'four.'—(Mr. Eugene Wason.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'seven' stand part of the Bill."
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid his intention, and the intention of the Bill, certainly was to make no distinction, and accordingly they made the number of 7,000 apply to both. As he had already explained in reply to the very widely expressed wish that he should give something to the old vested interest in burghs that had licensing authorities in the old days, he had given way in that case. Police burghs had no rights in the old days.
  MR. BLACKsaid he should support the Amendment of his hon. friend. He wished to point out to the Lord Advocate that in the case of county districts he had already accepted an Amendment reducing the number considerably below seven.
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid he had stated many times that he had not accepted that Amendment.
  MR. BLACKasked if it was the proposal of the Government to reverse that Amendment?
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYreplied that the proposals of the Government were on the Paper.
  MR. BLACKsaid that in that case the Bill stood as amended, and the proposal was to allow county districts and Royal burghs this privilege and to exclude police burghs. This was not reasonable, and he hoped his hon. friend would press his Amendment to a division.
  MR. PARKER SMITHsaid there would be very considerable feeling upon this point on the part of the smaller burghs if they were left out. If the Lord Advocate was willing to reduce to 5,000 to a limited number he thought it would go a very long way towards meeting the views of those burghs.
  *MR. MCCRAEsaid he hoped the Lord Advocate would favourably receive this Amendment. He had great respect for the Royal burghs, but for administrative purposes he did not see why they should have a population of 4,000 and police or Parliamentary burghs should be excluded unless they had a population of 7,000. For the sake of uniformity he thought the proper course to take was to make the number 4,000 for all burghs.
  MR. CROMBIEsaid he had an Amendment on the Paper which raised this question, but if this Amendment were carried he would probably be out of order in moving it. Unlike many of his hon. friends, he was not so favourable to small constituencies, but he thought it was most invidious to make a distinction in this matter. Many of these smaller constituencies were quite as important as Royal burghs, and quite as capable of having a licensing authority as any Royal burgh of the same size.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 220; Noes, 95. (Division List, No. 147.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch

  Anstruther, H. T.

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj.

  Arrol, Sir William

  Balcarres, Lord

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Man'r

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Gunter, Sir Robert

  Percy, Earl

  Bigwood, James

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Ld. G. (Midx.

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Brassey, Albert

  Hamilton, Marq. of (Londondy

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Bull, William James

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick G.

  Purvis, Robert

  Butcher, John George

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Randles, John S.

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasg.)

  Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley)

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Heath, James (Staffs., N. W.)

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Redmond, Jn. E. (Waterford)

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Howard, Jno (Kent, Faver'hm

  Remnant Jas. Farquharson

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred

  Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thomson

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc

  Kemp, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Chapman, Edward

  Kenyon Slaney, Col. W. (Salop

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Kerr, John

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E.

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Coddington, Sir William

  Knowles, Lees

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Lambton, Hon. Fredk. Wm.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Colston, Chas. Edw H. Athole

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasg.)

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N. R.

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)

  Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)

  Denny, Colonel

  Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham

  Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tr. Haml'ts

  Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.

  Spear, John Ward

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset)

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Lowe, Francis William

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)

  Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Jos. C.

  Lowther, Rt. Hon. Jas. (Kent)

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir Jn. M.

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Stroyan, John

  Doogan, P. C.

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir J. E.

  Lucas, Reg'ld J. (Portsmouth)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Duke, Henry Edward

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W.

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire)

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Ure, Alexander

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Malcolm, Ian

  Valentia, Viscount

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Man'r

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir W. H.

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H. E. (Wigt'n

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Mitchell, William (Burnley)

  Webb, Col. William George

  Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

  Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts)

  FitzGerald, Sir Robt. Penrose

  Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.)

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne)

  Flower, Ernest

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Forster, Henry William

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S. W.

  Mount, William Arthur

  Wills, Sir Frederick

  Fyler, John Arthur

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Gardner, Ernest

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks.)

  Garfit, William

  Myers, William Henry

  Wolff Gustav Wilhelm

  Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

  Worsley-Taylor, Hry. Wilson

  Gore, Hn. G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- (Lincs.

  O'Dowd, John

  Yerburgh, Robt. Armstrong

  Goschen, Hon. Geo. Joachim

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Young, Samuel

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Gretton, John

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Groves, James Grimble

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Hood and Mr. Fellowes.

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  NOES.

  Allen, Chas. P. (Glos., Stroud)

  Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

  Bryce, Right Hon. James

  Asher, Alexander

  Brigg, John

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Brown, Geo. M. (Edinburgh)

  Burt, Thomas

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  464

  465

  Caldwell, James

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristl, E.

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Cameron, Robert

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

  Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks.)

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark

  Joicey, Sir James

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Crombie, John William

  Jones, David B. (Swansea)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Crooks, William

  Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

  Tennant, Harold John

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glam., E.)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington)

  Thomas, F. Freeman (Hastings)

  Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardig'n

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Leng, Sir John

  Tomkinson, James

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Toulmin, George

  Dunn, Sir William

  Lloyd-George, David

  Wallace, Robert

  Edwards, Frank

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Elibank, Master of

  M'Crae, George

  Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney)

  Ellis, John Edward

  Mappin, Sir Fredk. Thorpe

  Weir, James Galloway

  Emmott, Alfred

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Evans, Saml. T. (Glamorgan)

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Whiteley, G. (York, W. R.)

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Newnes, Sir George

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Palmer Sir C. M. (Durham)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.

  Partington, Oswald

  Wilson, Chas. H. (Hull, W.)

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf'd

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J.

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Gordon, Hon. J. E. (Elgin & Nrn

  Price, Robert John

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries)

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tyd

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Mr. Eugene Wason and

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Mr. Black.

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Russell, T. W.

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland

  Question put, and agreed to.

  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 1, line 14, after the word 'thousand,' to insert the words 'and for each burgh containing a population under 7,000, but of or exceeding 4,000, the magistrates of which have power to grant certificates under the existing Acts.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
  MR. ASHERmoved to amend the Amendment by inserting words with the object of meeting the case of burghs the population of which, at the date of the last census, was under 4,000, but which had surpassed 4,000 between that date and the date of the passing of the Act. In the case of burghs of 7,000 population, the point had been met by the second Schedule of the Act, but there was no opportunity of getting towns whose population had grown over 4,000 since the date of the last census, put in the same position. He made this Motion specially with reference to the Royal burgh of Inverurie, with the case of which, he thought, the Lord Advocate was familiar. Of late there had been very large railway works introduced there, which had largely increased the population, and there was no doubt the population was now nearer 5,000.
  Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment to the Bill—
  "In line 2, after the word 'containing' to insert the words 'at the date of the passing of this Act as proved to the satisfaction of the Secretary for Scotland,'"—(Mr. Asher.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment to the Bill."
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid he hoped the hon. and learned Member would not press his Amendment. He promised that in another place appropriate words would be inserted.
  Amendment to the proposed Amendment to the Bill, by leave, withdrawn.
  THE EARL of DALKEITHmoved—
  "In lines 2 and 3, leave out 'four thousand,' and insert 'two thousand.'"
  He said that in his own constituency there were two burghs with a population of respectively 3,000 and 3,200 which had at present a licensing authority, but which would be deprived of it under the clause. On the other hand there was a small district with a population of 1,800 which had never had a separate licensing

  467
  authority, but would under the clause receive one. He thought that that really showed how very absurd these regulations were. He appealed to the right hon. and learned Gentleman to accept this Amendment. A considerable number of the towns which were being disfranchised, so far as licensing was concerned, were county towns, and more consideration should be given to them than had been done in the Bill.
  Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment to the Bill—
  "In line 3, to leave out the word 'four' and insert the word 'two.'"—(Earl of Dalkeith.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'four' stand part of the proposed Amendment to the Bill."
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid he was sorry that it was not possible for him to go any further than he had done. In answer to his noble friend as to country districts receiving a licensing authority which had never had one before, he would point out that the Bill only stated that the County Councils might give a separate licensing authority to a district if they wished.
  SIR ROBERT REIDsaid that they did not want to obstruct the Bill, of course, but the position was this—a right which had existed for 400 years was taken away from these burghs, whereas the same right was being conferred on the population of 1,800 which had never had the right before, and which had no separate or corporate existence at all. There had been no argument on public grounds in favour of this being done, and he thought it was a revolting thing to do. He recommended the noble Lord to advise his friends in the Royal burghs that they were not likely to get justice from a Conservative Government in this matter, and that the only chance they had was to appeal to the House of Lords.
  Proposed words there inserted in the Bill.
  MR. CHARLES DOUGLASsaid that the declared policy of the Bill in respect to the
  468
  country districts was that the County Council was to select and employ bodies for the purpose of administering licensing in the various districts. But no one would pretend that the magistrates in large towns were selected for the purpose of licensing. They became magistrates very largely by seniority in the Town Councils, and the question of their fitness for the duties of a licensing bench was not considered. He rather gathered that the Lord Advocate had been infected by his colleagues with the doctrine that the best way to get a thing done was to appoint a body for another purpose, and then hand over a new duty to it. At all events that was what was done under the present system. The magistrates were not necessarily the best qualified people, and, as a matter of fact, there were cases in which magistrates were actually legally disqualified for discharging the duty of a licensing authority. Cases had occurred in some small burghs in which there were only one or two magistrates who were not disqualified. The present system was not administratively good, and that was quite recognised by the magistrates themselves, for the proposed modification of it had the approval of the magistrates in large towns. Sometimes there was a wholly new bench of magistrates called upon to deal with licensing problems, who had had no previous experience of licensing work. Further, as from the nature of the case the magistrates knew that they would not have to deal with licensing business on more than two or three occasions, it was not to be expected that they would specially prepare themselves for dealing with these technical questions. If the work of licensing was to be efficiently done, it was desirable there should be greater continuity of administration, and a more permanent tribunal. An attempt had been made to do that in the Committee upstairs, and, for his part, if the Lord Advocate had been prepared to abide by the decision of the Committee to retain a certain proportion of the old magistrates, in addition to the existing magistrates, he would have been prepared to accept that as a compromise. The Committee upstairs did not adopt the plan he was now suggesting to the House, in view of its opinion that the object could be achieved by the Amendment made in the Bill, and which the Lord Advocate now proposed to delete. If the Lord Advocate insisted

  469
  on restoring the Bill to its original condition, he would feel bound to press his Amendment, which he now moved.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 1, line 15, to leave out from the words 'consisting of,' to the word 'Provided,' in line 18, and insert the words 'a committee appointed by the town council from their own number in accordance with the scale contained in the first schedule annexed hereto.'"—(Mr. Charles Douglas) instead thereof.
  Question proposed "That the words proposed to be left out to the word 'and' in line 16, stand part of the Bill."
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid that the Amendment would turn the scheme of the Bill upside down; and he did not suppose that the hon. Member would think for a moment that he was going to accept it.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 1, line 16, to leave out from the word 'being' to end of clause." — (The Lord Advocate.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
  MR. PARKER SMITHsaid he regretted much that the Lord Advocate had moved this Amendment deleting the portion of the clause which had been carried by a considerable majority of the Committee upstairs. What they wanted was the power of putting persons on the licensing authority who had had experience as magistrates, and who were still members of the town council. He thought that there was very serious danger of there being a lack of continuity of policy from the want of magistrates of experience, especially in smaller burghs. It was said it might lead to faddists coming in, but it would be far more likely to result in the man who had experience coming in, and who, through his experience had got rid of his fads. He was sorry the Lord Advocate proposed to go against this proposal, which generally received the support of the Committee, and he hoped some explanation of the reason would be given to the House.
  Question put, and negatived.
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. CHARLES DOUGLASsaid the object of the Amendment he now proposed to move was to give the whole control of licences in counties to County Councils, unhindered by the justices, exactly as it was given in towns to town councils and the magistrates. They had had no explanation from the Lord Advocate of the reason why justices were retained. The right hon. Gentleman had not suggested that the work would be better done by retaining them. They were taking a great part of the licensing out of the justices' hands because they thought those gentlemen had not done their work properly, and that being so he thought it would be more reasonable to transfer the licensing, so far as the counties were concerned, bodily to the County Councils. They had taken away from a number of the small burghs the control of their licensing, and he had supported the right hon. Gentleman in that policy because he believed in enlarging the licensing areas. But it would be a very serious thing to take this licensing away from small burghs and hand it over to those who were neither representative of the interests of the County Councils nor the burghs. He begged to move.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 2, line 25, to leave out the words 'one half of.'"—(Mr. Charles Douglas.)
  Question proposed, "That the words 'one half of' stand part of the Bill."
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid many would remember that as the Bill originally stood the proportions were two-thirds and one-third. As a concession he agreed to one half in order that there should be an equal number. The simple answer to this Amendment was that the Government were not prepared to go the length the hon. Member desired. The Bill itself represented a compromise, and to that compromise he meant to stick.
  MR. DALZIELsaid he hoped the hon. Member would not be satisfied with the explanation of the Lord Advocate. He supported the

  471
  hon. Member in this because he thought justices of the peace could get elected to the County Councils if they were the representative body they were said to be. The object of the Government ought to be to make this licensing body as representative as possible.
  MR. BLACKsaid the Lord Advocate had hardly discharged the onus which rested upon him in this this matter. The justices were chosen as the licensing authority in 1828 because in the towns the town councils which were elective bodies were given the right to elect the magistrates for this purpose. In the country there
  was no such elective body, and accordingly the legislature had no alternative but to nominate the only body existing, which was the justices of the peace. To day they had County Councils which were fully representative bodies qualified to exercise the same powers as the town councils or the burghs, why then should any distinction be drawn? Why should they not give the County Councils the same rights as those exercised by the burghs?
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 217; Noes, 86. (Division List No. 148.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Cullinan, J.

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Ld. G. (Mid'x

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Hamilton, Marq. of (Londondy

  Anstruther, H. T.

  Denny, Colonel

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick G.

  Arrol, Sir William

  Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tr. Haml'ts

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Atkinson, Right Hon. John

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Heath, James (Staffs., N. W.)

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir H.

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Howard, Jno (Kent, Faver'hm

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Joseph C.

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon

  Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton

  Balcarres, Lord

  Doogan, P. C.

  Kemp, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Man'r.

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir J. E.

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Kerr, John

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Keswick, William

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Hart

  Kilbride, Denis

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj.

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Knowles, Lees

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Bigwood, James

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N. R.

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Lees, Sir Elliot (Birkenhead)

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Brassy, Albert

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Bull, William James

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Butcher, John George

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasg.)

  Flower, Ernest

  Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Lowe, Francis William

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Forster Henry William

  Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Fyler, John Arthur

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Lucas, Reg'ld J. (Portsmouth)

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Gardner, Ernest

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc

  Garfit, William

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinb'rgh W.

  Chapman, Edward

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire)

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Gordon Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E.

  Gore, Hn. G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Coddington, Sir William

  Gore, Hn. S. F. Ormsby- (Linc

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Mitchell, William (Burnley)

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Gretton, John

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasg.)

  Groves, James Grimble

  Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.)

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Gunter, Sir Robert

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Mount, William Arthur

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Mowbray, Sir Robt. Gray C.

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham) Bute

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Robertson, H. (Hackney)

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Myers, William Henry

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Valantia, Viscount

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir W. H.

  O'Dowd, John

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Webb, Col. William George

  Pease, H. Pike (Darlington)

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton

  Peel, Hn. Wm. E. Wellesley

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts)

  Penn, John

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne)

  Percy, Earl

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Wills, Sir Frederick

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Spear, John Ward

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Purvis, Robert

  Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)

  Wolff, Gustay Wilhelm

  Randles, John S.

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Worsley-Taylor, Hry. Wilson

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart

  Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir Jn. M.

  Young, Samuel

  Redmond, Jn. E. (Waterford)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Stroyan, John

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Remnant, Jas. Farquharson

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Hood and Mr. Fellowes.

  Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge)

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ

  NOES.

  Allen, Chas. P. (Glos., Stroud)

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Asher, Alexander

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J.

  Russell, T. W.

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tyd

  Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford)

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Brigg, John

  Hayter, Rt. Hon Sir Arthur D.

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Brown, Geo. M. (Edinburgh)

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

  Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, E.)

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

  Thomas, D'avid Alfred (Merthyr

  Burns, John

  Joicey, Sir James

  Thomas, F. Freeman (Hastings)

  Burt, Thomas

  Jones, David B. (Swansea)

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Caldwell, James

  Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

  Tomkinson, James

  Cameron, Robert

  Langley, Batty

  Toulmin, George

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Ure, Alexander

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Wallace, Robert

  Cremer, William Randal

  Leng, Sir John

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Crombie, John William

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

  Crooks, William

  M'Crae, George

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Weir, James Galloway

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardign

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Whiteley, G. (York, W. R.)

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Newnes, Sir George

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Dunn, Sir William

  O'Mara, James

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Edwards, Frank

  Partington, Oswald

  Wilson, Chas. H. (Hull, W.)

  Elibank, Master of

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan

  Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Fenwick, Charles

  Price, Robert John

  Mr. Charles Douglas and

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries)

  Mr. Black.

  MR. EUGENE WASONsaid the object of his Amendment was to give some small concession to large populous burghs which had not the control of their own licensing. It was a very small matter, but it would be a boon to them because they had always hoped to be their own licensing authority.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 2, line 30, to leave out the words, 'the magistrates of which have power to grant certificates under the existing Acts.'"—(Mr. Eugene Wason.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill.'
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid this was really the old story over again. He could not give way any more. These concessions were made to the Royal burghs on account of the position they held.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 2, line 38, to leave out from beginning of line, to the word 'Provided,' in line 39, and insert the words, 'number of the Court without such addition as the population of the burgh bears to the population of the county or district excluding every such burgh.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)
  Amendment agreed to.
  THE EARL OF DALKEITHsaid the reason he had put this Amendment down was that he considered it as only fair that these burghs should have their full number on the licensing authority. He could not see why it should be restricted to magistrates. It was only fair if there was not a sufficient number of magistrates that the number should be made up by councillors. He begged to move.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 2, line 30, after the word 'magistrates,' to insert the words, 'or councillors.'"—(The Earl of Dalkeith.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
  MR. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid if the burgh got its magisterial body it was all it was entitled to. He could not accept the Amendment.
  Question put, and negatived.
  MR. MUNRO FERGUSONsaid in the discussion upstairs no very varied argument had been urged against the omission of the appeal Courts. His experience was that the licensing Courts of first instance did their work far better than the appeal Courts, and therefore he begged to move.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 3, line 3, to leave out Clause 4."—(Mr. Munro Ferguson.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out to the words, 'one-half' in line 5, stand part of the Bill."
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid this Amendment was to abolish the Court of appeal altogether. That was a proposition he was not prepared to accept and which he thought if accepted would not be at all advantageous to the licensing laws of Scotland. There were, he thought, very few matters in which it would be to the advantage of the public that there should be no appeal Court. The true value of an appeal Court in cases of this kind consisted not so much in the fact that a decision might be reversed, but in the fact that the Court below knew it could not do what it liked without its decisions being questioned. He would certainly object to the appeal Courts being taken out.
  MR. ASHERsaid that where a Court of first instance had to decide questions of law or of fact an appeal Court was a most valuable institution, but in this case what was proposed was an appeal Court to review the decisions of the licensing magistrates who, in exercising their discretion, had proceeded upon facts known to themselves, and of which there was no record whatever, the theory of the licensing Court being that it should consist of persons with local knowledge by which they should be guided in regard to the granting of licences. The decisions of such a body were to be reviewed by gentlemen from, perhaps, the other end of the county, who knew nothing whatever about the local circumstances of the particular place for which the licence was asked. While he had every admiration for an appeal Court under proper circumstances, it appeared to be perfectly absurd here.
  MR. BLACK, in supporting the Amendment, said the Lord Advocate was consistent in constantly appealing to what had been, but he had given no reason whatever for maintaining, in the altered circumstances, what had been. The strengthening of the Court of first instance had done away with whatever reason previously existed for the maintenance of a Court of appeal. Moreover, according to statistics, the Court of appeal had been falling in popularity in Scotland, inasmuch as while ten years ago there were 141 appeals there were now only half that number,

  477
  representing about ½ per cent. of the cases disposed of even by the inferior Court of first instance.
  MR. BRYCEexpressed his surprise that more argument had not been adduced by the Lord Advocate in support of the clause. Many Members who were now present were not on the Standing Committee, and the House was entitled on a question of such importance to more than a perfunctory expression of opinion. He believed that the general trend of opinion in Scotland for some time past had been against the appeal Court. In saying that, he was not referring to the extreme section of the temperance party, but to the moderate and reasonable men who felt that some reform was needed, but who were anxious that the law should be administered with fairness and moderation. The balance of opinion among that class of the population was that the appeal Court was of little or no use. The appeals were described as being from knowledge to ignorance, from those who had a direct local interest to those who were indifferent, and if that were true, the House ought to have further reasons given in favour of the retention of this clause. The argument of the Lord Advocate that the primary licensing Court required to be kept in order by the possibility of its decisions being reversed was hardly applicable, as the Court of first instance really had a direct local responsibility, while the Court of appeal would not have the same responsibility. He believed that the balance of Scotch opinion was that no good had been derived from the existence of the appeal Court in times past, and that the present opportunity should be taken to get rid of it.
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYasked whether the right hon. Gentleman was really under the impression that the balance of Scotch opinion was against the existence of the confirmatory Court.
  MR. BRYCEbelieved it was in favour of throwing the whole responsibility on the Court of first instance, which was in the locality, knew the facts, and was
  practically responsible to the people of the district. Opinion might differ in different parts of the country, but as far as he knew that was the feeling.
  SIR CHARLES RENSHAWprotested against the view given by the right hon. Gentleman of opinion in Scotland with regard to the appear Court, and especially to the confirmatory Court. The latter had been a most valuable check on the licensing system, and there would be a feeling of deep regret throughout Scotland if the protection afforded by it were withdrawn.
  MR. HUNTER CRAIGsaid it was a notorious fact that all the larger burghs had felt it to be an injustice that justices hould be brought in from outside to overturn the decisions of the people on the spot.
  SIR JAMES FERGUSSONdenied the accuracy of the view of the right hon. Gentleman opposite. It was true that great scandal had arisen in connection with canvassing, but that would be put right by the establishment of a properly constituted Court. The great advantage of a confirmatory Court was that it secured uniformity of procedure, which was not likely to be obtained if all the smaller licensing bodies acted independently.
  MR. DALZIELregarded this clause as one of the blackest spots in the Bill. If the Government considered the authority they were setting up to be a proper authority, why should there be any appeal against their decision? A kind of House of Lords was being set up, and it would weaken both the Bill and the local authority.
  MR. GROVES, speaking as one possessing some knowledge of the subject, and a full share of common sense, said that this clause, so far from weakening the Bill, was one of its strong points, and was necessary if the measure was to work satisfactorily.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 217; Noes 76. (Division List No. 149.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Anstruther, H. T.

  Atkinson, Right Hon. John

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Arrol, Sir William

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Garfit, William

  O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid)

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.

  O'Dowd, John

  Balcarres, Lord

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nrn.

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Man'r

  Gore, Hr. G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey

  Goschen, Hon. Geo. Joachim

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington)

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch

  Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Gretton, John

  Penn, John

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj.

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Percy, Earl

  Beach, Rt. Hon. Sir M. Hicks

  Groves, James Grimble

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Bigwood, James

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry

  Purvis, Robert

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Randles John S.

  Bowles, T. Gibson (Lynn Regis

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Brassey, Albert

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Heath, Arthur H. Hanley)

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Bull, William James

  Heath, James (Stafford, N. W.

  Remnant, Jas. Farquharson

  Butcher, John George

  Helder, Augustus

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow)

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Howard, Jno (Kent, Faver'hm

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred

  Robertson, H. (Hackney)

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)

  Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton

  Roche, John

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Johnstone, Heywood

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Kemp, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Wor.

  Kerr, John

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Chapman, Edward

  Keswick, William

  Sadler, Col. Saml. Alexander

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Lambton, Hon. Fredk. Wm.

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Coddington, Sir William

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks., N. R.

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew

  Colston, Chas. Edw H. Athole

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Legge, Col. Hon, Heneage

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasg.)

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks.)

  Cox, Irwin Edwd. Bainbridge

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Spear, John Ward

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Lowe, Francis William

  Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir Jn. M.

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Denny, Colonel

  Lucas, Reg'ld J. (Portsmouth)

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

  Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tr. Haml'ts

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W.

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire)

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Jos. C.

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir W. H.

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Doogan, P. C.

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Webb, Col. William George

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Mitchell William (Burnley)

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts)

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne)

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.)

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  FitzGerald, Sir Robt. Penrose-

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Worsley-Taylor, Hry. Wilson

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Flower, Ernest

  Mount, William Arthur

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Forster, Henry William

  Mowbray, Sir Robt. Gray C.

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Fyler, John Arthur

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Hood and Mr. Fellowes.

  Gardner, Ernest

  Myers, William Henry

  NOES.

  Allen, Chas. P. (Glos., Stroud)

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Asher, Alexander

  Black, Alexander William

  Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

  480

  481

  Brigg, John

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale

  Smith, H. C. (Northum. Tyneside)

  Brown, Geo. M. (Edinburgh)

  Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D.

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H.

  Tennant, Harold John

  Bryce, Right Hon. James

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, E.)

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Burns, John

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

  Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

  Caldwell, James

  Jones, Wm. (Carnarconshire)

  Thomas, F. Freeman (Hastings)

  Cameron, Robert

  Langley, Batty

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Toulmin, George

  Cremer, William Randal

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Ure, Alexander

  Crooks, William

  Leng, Sir John

  Wallace, Robert

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Wason, E. (Clackmannan)

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Lough, Thomas

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

  M'Crae, George

  Weir, James Galloway

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benj.

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Whiteley, G. (York, W. R.)

  Dunn, Sir William

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Edwards, Frank

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Elibank, Master of

  Newnes, Sir George

  Wilson, Chas. H. (Hull, W.)

  Evans, Saml. T. (Glamorgan)

  Partington, Oswald

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Fenwick, Charles

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries)

  Mr. Munro Ferguson and

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Mr. Crombie.

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tyd

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  And it being after half-past Seven of the clock, further consideration of the Bill, as amended, stood adjourned till this Evening's Sitting.

EVENING SITTING.

  LICENSING ACTS (SCOTLAND) CONSOLIDATION AND AMENDMENT BILL.
  As amended (by the Standing Committee), further considered.
  MR. GROVESformally moved the following Amendment standing in the name of Mr. Galloway.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 3, line 5, to leave out the words 'one-half,' and insert the words 'two-thirds.'"—(Mr. Groves.)
  Question proposed "That the words 'one-half' stand part of the Bill."
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid if he were master of the situation he would be willing to accede to the Motion, but in the interests of the Bill he was bound to stand by the concessions made in Committee, and therefore he would advise the House to vote against the Amendment. The exact proportion was a question which did not matter one way or the other, but as he had had no hesitation in gauging the feeling of the Committee on this question he should stick to the Bill and oppose the Amendment now proposed.
  Mr. GRETTONthought there were weighty arguments in favour of the Amendment. The right hon. and learned Gentleman only said he felt bound by the compromise which had been arrived at in Committee, but it seemed to him to be an illogical proceeding to refer a decision come to by one body to another body largely composed of the original body which arrived at the decision. He thought it was seriously to be regretted that the compromise had been arrived at.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Amendments proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 3, line 10, after the word '(2),' insert the words 'Except as hereinafter provided'"
  "In page 3, lines 23 and 24, to leave out the words 'having a separate licensing Court and containing a population,' and insert the words 'containing a population of or exceeding seven thousand and.'"
  "In page 3, line 30, after the word 'Courts,' to insert the words 'and from any burgh licensing Court for a burgh situate within the county which is notspecified in the immediately preceding subsection.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)
  Amendments agreed to.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 3, lines 39 and 40, to leave out the words 'a proprietor of lands or houses or has not a residence or a place of business,' and insert the words 'entered in the valuation roll in force for the time being as a proprietor, tenant, or occupier of lands or heritages.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. CHARLES DOUGLASsaid this Amendment provided for the representation of burghs on the county appeal Court in respect of decisions given by the burgh licensing committee being the subject of the review of the Court. As the Bill at present stood the burghs were left without any representation whatever in the appeal Court by which their decisions were reviewed. Although they might regard the question of Courts of first instance being settled this question of the Court of appeal was a separate question, and it was not an unreasonable suggestion to make that the burgh should be represented in the appeal Court in proportion to its population. He sincerely hoped the right hon. Gentleman would accept the Amendment. He begged to move.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 4, line 3, at the end, to add the words '(a) The Court of appeal from a county licensing Court or county district licensing court as hereinbefore provided shall be modified by the addition thereto for each county of such a number of representatives, being magistrates from the burghs under 7,000 population, within each county as the Secretary for Scotland shall determine, by order under his hand, having regard to the relative population of the burghs and county respectively: Provided, that the number of magistrates to be determined as aforesaid shall not exceed the number of justices of the peace for the county contained in the Court of appeal; (b) The burgh representatives on the Court of appeal as provided in the immediately preceding subsection shall be elected at a meeting of the magistrates of the burghs without separate licensing Courts within each county, to be convened by the town clerk of the county town of each county on the third Tuesday of December one thousand nine hundred and four, and they shall hold office till the third Tuesday of December one thousand nine hundred and five, when they shall retire, and their successors
  shall be elected at a meeting to be convened as aforesaid, and thereafter such retiral and election shall take place every third year at a meeting convened as aforesaid to be held on the third Tuesday of December, and the members so elected shall act for three years.'"—(Mr. Charles Douglas.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid he did not like to refuse an Amendment moved in such temperate language. In this case there were no old rights of which burghs had been deprived. The burghs never had any part in the appeal Court. The appeal was to the county justices, and the burghs were now in a much better position than they were before, because instead of going to an irregular tribunal, as they previously did, they went now to a regular appeal Court. If this had not complicated the appeal Court he would have accepted the Amendment, but, as it would complicate it very much, he could not do so. He had considered the matter, and if anything could have moved him it would have been the temperate language of the hon. Member.
  MR. DALZIELsaid he could not agree with the right hon. Gentleman in all he had said. He thought this was a very important Amendment, and was sorry the right hon. Gentleman could not accept it. He hoped the hon. Member would go to a division upon it.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 56; Noes, 110. (Division List No. 150.)

  AYES.

  Black, Alexander William

  Edwards, Frank

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Brigg, John

  Fenwick, Charles

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Brown, Geo. M. (Edinburgh)

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Priestley Arthur

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries)

  Burns, John

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Burt, Thomas

  Jones, William (Carnarv'nshire

  Russell, T. W.

  Caldwell, James

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Cameron, Robert

  Leng, Sir John

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

  Levy, Maurice

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe

  Crombie, John William

  Lough, Thomas

  Tennant, Harold John

  Crooks, William

  Lundon, W.

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glam., E.)

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  M'Crae, George

  Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Wallace, Robert

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Mr. Charles Douglas and

  Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Mr. Dalziel.

  Weir, James Galloway

  Yoxall, James Henry

  NOES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Garfit, William

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n

  Anstruther, H. T.

  Goschen, Hon. Geo. Joachim

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Greene, Hy. D. (Shrewsbury)

  Percy, Earl

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Gretton, John

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Arrol, Sir William

  Groves James Grimble

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Atkinson, Right Hon. John

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick G.

  Purvis, Robert

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

  Helder, Augustus

  Randles, John S.

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tott'ham

  Remnant, Jas. Farquharson

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj.

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Johnstone, Heywood

  Roche, John

  Bull, William James

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Kerr, John

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Butcher, John George

  Keswick, William

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Seely, Maj J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Chapman, Edward

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Smith, H. C. (Northmb, Tyneside

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Spear, John Ward

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinb'rgh, W.

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Cullinan, J.

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benj.

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. E. M.

  Denny, Colonel

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Ure, Alexander

  Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

  Milvain, Thomas

  Valentia, Viscount

  Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tr. Haml'ts

  Mitchell, William (Burnley)

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir W. H.

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir. Joseph C.

  Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Doogan, P. C.

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Flower, Ernest

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

  Flynn, James Christopher

  O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Forster, Henry William

  O'Dowd, John

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Fyler, John Arthur

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Hood and Mr. Fellowes.

  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 4, line 31, to leave out from beginning of line to the word 'and,' in line 32."—(The Lord Advocate.)
  Amendment agreed to.
  THE EARL OF DALKEITHsaid the Amendment he now proposed might not be of great importance, but it seemed to him that in creating these clauses it would be unwise to restrict them, it would be much better to leave them unrestricted in these matters. He begged to move.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 6, line 10, to leave out Sub-section (11)."—(The Earl of Dalkeith.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out to the word 'new' in line 12, stand part of the Bill."
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid he was not prepared to accept the Amendment. He would rather stick to the Bill as it was.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  SIR JOHN LENGsaid the Amendment he now proposed was to extend this clause to renewals as well as new licences. He begged to move.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 6, line 12, to leave out the word 'new.'"—(Sir John Leng.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'new' stand part of the Bill."
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid he must oppose the Amendment because here again there was the question of the

  487
  compromise. The Bill, as it stood, followed the old law, but this Amendment would entirely alter the law. Under the old law there was to be a majority in part because they had large irregular tribunals, but they now had regular tribunals. It was also questionable whether this Amendment was in order, having regard to what they had done in Sub-section 8 of the present clause, but he would not take that point. The idea was that where they were altering the status quo they must have an absolute majority. He had given way on the question of a new certificate in regard to which they must have an absolute majority, but when it was a case of appeal on renewal then they had a person who had already got a certificate and he was entitled to a renewal. He thought it was rather hard in an appeal case to insist upon an absolute majority. In every case if a new certificate was required they were bound to have a
  majority. Therefore he could not accept the Amendment.
  MR. DALZIELsaid he was sorry that the Lord Advocate had made a mistake in this matter. The question was whether the chairman had the power of a casting vote in regard to a renewal just as he had in regard to a new application. It was not a question of the merits. Whether it was an old or a new certificate was not the question the Committee had to decide, but it was the question of the power of the chairman, and if he had a casting vote in one case why should he not have it in an altogether different case? He hoped the hon. Member for Dundee would adhere to his very reasonable Amendment, and if he did he should support him.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 124; Noes, 63. (Division List No. 151.)

  AYES.

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Flower, Ernest

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Anstruther, H. T.

  Forster, Henry William

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Fyler, John Arthur

  Myers, William Henry

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Garfit, William

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

  Arrol, Sir William

  Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Goschen, Hon. Geo. Joachim

  O'Dowd, John

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Greene, Hy. D. (Shrewsbury)

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Man'r

  Gretton, John

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds

  Groves, James Grimble

  Percy, Earl

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj.

  Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley)

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Heath, James (Staff's., N. W.)

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Bull, William James

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Purvis, Robert

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Randles, John S.

  Butcher, John George

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tott'ham

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Johnstone, Heywood

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc

  Kerr, John

  Robertson, H. (Hackney)

  Chapman, Edward

  Keswick, William

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks N. R.

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)

  Cullinan, J.

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Smith, H. C. (North'mb. Tyneside

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Denny, Colonel

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Spear, John Ward

  Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W.

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tr. Haml'ts

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Jos. C.

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. E. M.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Milvain, Thomas

  Valentia, Viscount

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Mitchell, William (Burnley)

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Webb, Col. William George

  FitzGerald, Sir Robt. Penrose

  Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

  Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E. Taunton

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne)

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Worsley-Taylor, Hry. Wilson

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Hood and Mr. Fellowes.

  NOES.

  Black, Alexander William

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Brigg, John

  Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Langley, Batty

  Taylor, Theo. C. (Radcliffe)

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Tennant, Harold John

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Levy, Maurice

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glam., E.

  Burt, Thomas

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

  Caldwell, James

  Lough, Thomas

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Cameron, Robert

  M'Crae, George

  Ure, Alexander

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasg.)

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benj.

  Wallace, Robert

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney)

  Crombie, John William

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Weir, James Galloway

  Crooks, William

  Partington, Oswald

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Edwards, Frank

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Elibank, Master of

  Priestley, Arthur

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Reid, Sir R. T. (Dumfries)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Ferguson R. C. Munro (Leith

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Sir John Leng and Mr.

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.

  Russell, T. W.

  Dalziel.

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Samuel, Herbt. L. (Cleveland)

  Question, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill," put, and agreed to.

  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 6, line 12, after the word 'certificate,' to insert the words 'or renewal.'"—(Sir John Leng.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill"
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYhoped the hon. Member would not persist in his Amendment. He had already taken the sense of the House on his previous Amendments, and the case for this Amendment was infinitely weaker.
  SIR JOHN LENGasked leave to withdraw his Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 12, line 5, to leave out from the word 'premises,' to end of Sub-section (1), and insert the words 'and notwithstanding the repeal of any enactment by this Act the duty payable upon any Excise licence granted in pursuance of such a certificate shall continue to be at the same rate as was exigible for a similar licence immediately before the passing of this Act.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
  MR. BUCHANANsaid he was under the impression that this clause was not in the Bill considered upstairs, but was one of the Amendments of the general law submitted by the Lord Advocate.
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid he had already stated that this was a drafting Amendment and made no difference whatsoever in the effect of the clause.
  Question put, and negatived.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 12, line 18, to leave out the word 'eleventh,' and insert the words 'twenty-eighth.'"—(Sir John Leng.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'eleventh' stand part of the Bill."
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: I will accept this Amendment.
  Question put and negatived.
  Question "That the words 'twenty-eighth' be then inserted, put, and agreed to."
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 13, line 24, at the end, to insert the words 'For the purpose of preventing repeated applications for new certificates a Licensing Court may at any general half-yearly meeting make regulations determining the time which must elapse after the hearing and refusal of one application for a certificate before another application may be made in respect of the same premises. Provided that the Court may in their discretion, for good cause shown, dispense with the observance of these regulations in any particular case.'"—(Mr. Hunter Craig.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid the hon. Member had told the House how he had once to travel 800 miles in order to prevent the granting of a licence, and he said it was very hard that the same application for licences should be put forward again and again. As he had already explained to the Committee, he did not think that any difficulty would arise in the future. In the old days there was a sort of moving Court of justice, that was to say, any body could be got together, and he could understand a person anxious to obtain a licence which had previously been refused him, desiring, to use a sporting phrase, to have a run for his money in the new Court. Under this Bill they would have a stable Court which would meet twice a year, and he did not see why it should not do any business put before it. He did not see any grievance even if they had the importunate widow coming more than once with the same application. Many people had to do business which they did not altogether like, and this was an Amendment which the Government could not accept. It would be just as reasonable for the Government to propose a regulation to prevent any hon. Member who had already moved two Amendments from moving a third. If they put into the law any provision, like that which the hon. Member had proposed, for making regulations to prevent people from making renewed applications they would get into great difficulties.
  SIR ROBERT REIDsaid the right hon. Gentleman had stated that the Bill would set up a more stable Court which would not be liable to the same influences as the old Court. If that were
  492
  so, there was nothing in this Amendment which would interfere with that, and the proposal of his hon. friend would not lay down a hard and fast rule. These Courts in the past had been frequently worried by constant and useless applications by persons to whom the Courts had resolved not to give licences, and this Amendment proposed to give the Courts an opportunity, if the circumstances demanded it, to make a regulation preventing repeated applications in a particular case. He agreed, that it was not a matter of great importance but it was reasonable, and he thought it would discourage this troublesome practice.
  MR. DALZIELsaid the Lord Advocate had drawn a comprise between this Amendment and the Rules of the House, and he stated that it would be just as reasonable to make a Rule preventing an hon. Member who had moved two Amendments from moving a third. He wished to remind the right hon. Gentleman that in such a case an hon. Member would be acting in accordance with the Rules of the House, and if a question was decided in the House on one day it could not be decided again the next day or the day after. This was not a question of a fresh licence, but a question of repeated applications for the same premises.
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYreplied that an hon. Member could move a Bill one year in the House and move it again the next year. As a matter of fact, he had heard the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy Burghs make the same speech year after year.
  MR. DALZIELsaid he was indebted to the Lord Advocate for his great compliment, although he was not aware of it and he should be glad to know upon what particular subject he had acted in the way suggested. This was not a question of the Rules of the House or of the Court, but it was a question of having repeated applications to renew the certificate of licence for certain premises. That meant that the community were in a state of continual friction in regard to the application. It was unreasonable that the same application for the same

  493
  premises could be made every six months, and it should be in the power of the court to make regulations of the kind proposed.
  MR. HUNTER CRAIGsaid that a somewhat similar clause was inserted in the English Bill with reference to transfers, and therefore he did not see why the Lord Advocate should consider such a clause objectionable when proposed for the Scotch Bill. The grievance was doubly felt in Scotland, because, while the English licensing meeting only took place once a year, and the licensing committee could determine what time should elapse before the application could be renewed, under the Scotch Bill the application could come up four times as against once in England. It was a very great hardship that the licensing
  authority should be pestered by the same man coming every six months with the same application. In a portion of his constituency of Govan, which had a population of 6,000, there was not a single public house, and the community were pestered by the same people applying for licences every six months. They had to get up a Vigilance Committee and canvass the community against the applications. That was a source of great annoyance and trouble to the inhabitants of the place. The Amendment was a reasonable one, and he hoped the House would accept it.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 71; Noes, 154. (Division List No 152.)

  AYES.

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Gurdon Sir W. Brampton

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Brigg, John

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)

  Brown George M. (Edinburgh)

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Jones, William Carnarvonshire

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Langley, Batty

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Burt, Thomas

  Lawson Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Tennant, Harold John

  Caldwell, James

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, E.)

  Cameron, Robert

  Leng, Sir John

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glam., E.)

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Levy, Maurice

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasg.)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Lough, Thomas

  Toulmin, George

  Crombie, John William

  M'Crae George

  Ure, Alexander

  Crooks, William

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benj.

  Wallace, Robert

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

  Weir, James Galloway

  Duncan J. Hastings

  Newnes, Sir George

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Dunn, Sir William

  Partington, Oswald

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Edwards, Frank

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Elibank, Master of

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Priestley, Arthur

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Fenwick, Charles

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries)

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Robertson Edmund (Dundee)

  Mr. Hunter Craig and

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Russell, T. W.

  Mr. Black.

  NOES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Brassey, Albert

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Bull, William James

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Saville

  Anstruther, H. T.

  Butcher, John George

  Cullinan, J.

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Denny, Colonel

  Arrol, Sir William

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc.

  Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.

  Atkinson, Right Hon. John

  Chapman, Edward

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Jos. C.

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)

  Colston, Chas. Edw H. Athole

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Doogan, P. C.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj.

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Donglas

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Roche, John

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire

  FitzGerald, Sir Robt. Penrose

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire)

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Flower, Ernest

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse

  Forster, Henry William

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B, (Isle of Wigh

  Fyler, John Arthur

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Garfit, William

  Milvain, Thomas

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.

  Mitchell, William (Barnley)

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin and N'rn

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)

  Goschen, Hon. Geo. Joachim

  Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

  Smith, H. C. (North'mb Tyneside)

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks.)

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Gretton, John

  Mount, William Arthur

  Spear, John Ward

  Groves, James Grimble

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute

  Stanley, Lord (Lancashire)

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Myers, William Henry

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Stroyan, John

  Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley)

  O'Dowd, John

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Heath, James (Staffords., N. W.

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Henderson, Sir Alexander

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n

  Valentia, Viscount

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Percy, Earl

  Webb, Col. William George

  Howard, J. (Midd. Tuttenham)

  Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard

  Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne)

  Johnstone, Heywood

  Plammer, Walter R.

  Wilson, A. S. (York, E. R.)

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Wilson John (Glasgow)

  Kerr, John

  Purvis, Robert

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Keswick, William

  Randles, John S.

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Ratcliffe, R. F.

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N. R.

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson

  Hood and Mr. Fellowes.

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Question put, and agreed to.

  SIR ROBERT REIDasked permission to put a Question to the Lord Advocate in regard to Clause 18. Would there be any difficulty in the matter of machinery in a Court requiring a person concerned to attend?
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid the law here was simply the law as it stood. There was no alteration.
  MR. GRETTONmoved an Amendment with the object of restricting the right of appeal in cases where objectors did not appear in the first instance before the licensing authority. The clause provided:—
  "If any member of a licensing Court, or proprietor or occupier of any house or premises in respect whereof any such certificate shall be applied for, or proprietor or occupier of property in the neighbourhood of such house, shall be dissatisfied with any proceeding of any licensing Court assembled for granting certificates as aforesaid, whether in granting or refusing or otherwise disposing of any such application, it shall be lawful to such member
  496
  of the licensing Court, proprietor, or occupier, to appeal therefrom to the next Court of appeal from such licensing Court."
  It appeared to him that no such right of appeal was at all requisite. An appeal should only be available to those who had previously been represented before the licensing authority, or to public officers who might have some claim to be heard. He begged to move.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 17, line 1, to leave out the words 'or proprietor or occupier of property in the neighbourhood of such house.'"—(Mr. Gretton.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid he could not accept the Amendment, but he had on the Paper two Amendments to limit the right of appeal to proprietors or occupiers of property who appeared in the Court of First Instance in objection to

  497
  the granting or renewal of the licence. He thought his Amendments would really meet the hon. Member's point, and would deal with it more appropriately than by leaving out the words altogether.
  SIR ROBERT REIDsaid if this was propounded in the sense of a compromise, and was acceptable to hon. Members on this side of the House, he did not wish to spoil the proceedings by objecting. It appeared to him an astonishing thing to deny to the owner or occupier of a valuable residence the right of appeal against the granting or renewal of a licence which might diminish the value of his property by one-half. If any hon. Member was disposed to go to a division in regard to the Lord Advocate's proposition he would support him, but as he wished to recognise the spirit of compromise he would not himself do anything to mar peaceful proceedings. At the same time he must object to what appeared to him a perfectly monstrous proposal.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 17, line 1, after the first word 'or,' to insert the words 'if any.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)
  Amendment agreed to.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 17, line 2, after the word 'house,' to insert the words 'who has objected before the licensing Court to the granting or renewal of any such certificate.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)
  Amendment greed to.
  MR. BLACKsaid he had an Amendment on the Paper which raised the question of the bonâ fide traveller. There were many inns and hotels in the neighbourhood of large towns and cities which were used only for the purpose of Sunday drinking. His Amendment would enable the licensing Court to limit the licence so that the applicant should not be permitted to admit travellers to his inn or
  498
  hotel on Sunday. The Lord Advocate had given an undertaking in Committee that this matter would, be considered on Report. He begged to move.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 22, line 17, after the word 'Sunday,' to insert the words 'or when in any case the Court considers that the premises should be closed during the whole of Sunday.'"—(Mr. Black.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid he had considered the matter, and he could not accept the Amendment. At present the law was that a six days licence was a matter for the licencee to decide for himself. If he only wished a six days licence, he had simply to go to the Inland Revenue Office and he would get it. But it seemed to him that there was no right in the magistrates or licensing authority to force a six days licence on any applicant, and upon the whole he thought that that was the best position for the law to be in. He did not think it would be for the advantage of the public that the licensing Court should be able to say to an applicant "We will not grant you a full hotel licence but only a six days licence." That was to say that no liquor should ever be supplied to travellers at all on Sundays
  MR. BLACKsaid a lodger would have the power to get what liquor he wanted, but not a passing traveller.
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid he did not think that on the whole that would be right. If there was no possibility of supplying a traveller at all, it would not matter whether the traveller was a bonâ fide or a malâ fide traveller.
  MR. CROMBIEsaid he really wished the Lord Advocate would give this subject more consideration. The chief constables of the country seemed to be unanimous that the great blot on the

  499
  Bill was the absence of a definition of the bonâ fide traveller. There were certain districts near large towns where the bonâ fide traveller hardly existed, and he thought the licensing authority should have the power proposed to be given in his hon. friend's Amendment. He hoped that if the Lord Advocate could not accept the Amendment in its present shape he would propose something else to carry out the object in view.
  MR. DALZIELsaid the great difficulty at present was to know who the bonâ fide traveller was. He knew a case where the name entered on the visitors' book was that of the hon. Member for Camborne. He knew very well that his hon. friend was not in the habit of visiting public houses in the neighbourhood of Glasgow.
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: Hoc prœtexit nomine culpam.
  MR. DALZIELsaid that of course visitors did not use their own names, but somebody else's by way of joke.
  SIR WILFRID LAWSONsaid he believed that not only was his own name used in the visitors' book, but also those of several Bishops.
  SIR ROBERT REIDsaid that the Lord Advocate ought surely to pay attention to the remonstrances of the Scotch Members in matters of this kind.
  MR. PARKER SMITHsaid he knew districts in the Highlands where a six days' licence would be taken out to the great inconvenience of travellers and bicyclists. He also knew districts near Glasgow where the bonâ fide traveller went to get bonâ fide liquor. He thought the licensing authority ought to have authority to intervene in these matters. Licencees often declined to do what was to the general convenience of the public in order to follow their own idea of what was right.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 76; Noes, 165. (Division List No. 153.)

  AYES.

  Asher, Alexander

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Jones William (Carnarvonshire

  Smith, H. C. (Northumb. Tyneside

  Brigg, John

  Langley, Batty

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Lawson Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Spear, John Ward

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir Jn. M.

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Leng, Sir John

  Taylor, Theo. C. (Radcliffe)

  Burt, Thomas

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Tennant, Harold John

  Caldwell, James

  Levy, Maurice

  Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, E.)

  Cameron, Robert

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glammorgan E.

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Lough, Thomas

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasg.)

  M'Crae, Sir George

  Thomson, F. W. (York W.

  Cremer, William Randal

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benj.

  Toulmin, George

  Crombie, John William

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Ure, Alexander

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Wallace, Robert

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Wason, E. (Clackmannan)

  Denny Colonel

  Newnes, Sir George

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Partington, Oswald

  Weir, James Galloway

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Philipps, John Wynford

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Dunn, Sir William

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Edwards, Frank

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Elibank, Master of

  Priestley, Arthur

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Russell, T. W.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Mr. Black and Mr. Hunter

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)

  Craig.

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  NOES

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Garfit, William

  Myers, William Henry

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

  Anstruther, H. T.

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nrn.

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Gore, Hn. G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Arrol, Sir William

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Percy, Earl

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Gretton, John

  Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir H.

  Groves, James Grimble

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Balcarres, Lord

  Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord G. (Midd'x

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manchr

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Purvis, Robert

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Randles, John S.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj.

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Heath, James (Staffords., N. W.

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Henderson, Sir Alexander

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Brassey, Albert

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Bull, William James

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

  Robertson, H. (Hackney)

  Butcher, John George

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Johnstone, Heywood

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Kenyot-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc

  Kerr, John

  Sadler, Col. Saml. Alexander

  Chapman, Edward

  Keswick, William

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E.

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N. R.

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Colston, Chas. Edw H. Athole

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Lowe, Francis William

  Stroyan, John

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Cullinan, J.

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxeth)

  Devlin Joseph (Kenny, N.)

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W.)

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire)

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. E. M.

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  M'Killop W. (Sligo North)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph C.

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Walrond Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Webb, Col. William George

  Doogan, P. C.

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Milvain, Thomas

  Whiteley, H, (Ashton und. Lyne

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Mitchell, William (Burnley)

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.)

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.)

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  FitzGerald, Sir Robt. Penrose-

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Young, Samuel

  Flower, Ernest

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Forster, Henry William

  Mount, William Arthur

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Forster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Foster, John Arthur

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Hood and Mr. Fellowes.

  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 23, line 7, at beginning, to insert Lords either (1).'"—(The Lord Advocate
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid it had been represented to him that the clause as it stood might inflict hardship on town restaurant keepers who, in
  502
  places like Glasgow, were in the habit of providing breakfasts for large parties of excursionists and had no intention of supplying them with exciseable liquors. The clause would prevent them opening their doors before a certain hour in the morning, and that restriction, under the circumstances, was not desirable. He proposed to meet the difficulty by allowing restaurants to be opened earlier than usual for the sale of provisions and temperance drinks only.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 23, line 11, to leave out the word 'and,' and insert the words or (2) to open any restaurant for which a public-house certificate is held or keep the same open for the sale and consumption of provisions and refreshments of any kind other than exciseable liquors on such public or special occasion, and for that purpose only during such time, and before or beyond the hours prescribed by his certificate for opening and closing respectively, Sunday excepted, and in either case.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)
  Amendment agreed to.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 23, line 34, after the word 'permission,' to insert the words 'to sell exciseable liquors.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. GROVESsaid Clause 41 proposed to give the licensing authority power to close licensed premises either wholly or partially on any occasion they might think fit. He proposed to move the omission of those words because he held that the power proposed be given went beyond what was necessary. He could imagine some licensing bodies which might make rules and regulations of so drastic a nature as to be almost impossible of administration. It was very desirable that there should be uniformity in the administration of the licensing laws, and that power should not be given to close houses an unlimited number of days in any one year.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 23, lines 40 and 41, to leave out the words 'and on such other occasions as the licensing Court may deem fit and expedient for special reasons.'"—(Mr. Groves.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
  SIR J. STIRLING-MAXWELLthought the Government would make a very great mistake if they accepted
  504
  this Amendment. The object of the Bill was to give a strong licensing authority power to deal with special questions coming before them. This was eminently a question on which, if they did their duty at all, they ought to be able to arrive at a reasonable decision. He had never heard any objection to this proposal except from those who were engaged in supplying the public with liquor. He hoped the House would leave it in the power of the licensing authority to make arrangements in the public interest, in the interest of public order, and the decent conduct of the trade on great public occasions.
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid the clause as it stood was carried against his opposition in the Committee. The original proposal related to New Year's Day only. He had not felt it his duty to invoke the powers of the Government to put a side what was done in Committee. He had however, put down an Amendment practically the same as that standing in the name of the hon. Member for Partick limiting the number of days to four in one year. He thought that would meet the views of hon. Gentlemen, and under the circumstances he should not seek to influence the decision of the House on this Amendment.
  MR. MUNRO FERGUSONhoped that what had fallen from the hon. Member for the College Division of Glasgow would not be lost on the. Committee. He trusted that at any rate the Lord Advocate would and here to his own proposal, for to limit the power of cloth to New Year's Dray would have a very prejudicial effect on the conduct of licensing system.
  SIR LEWIS MCIVERsaid the Amendment seemed to him absolutely puerile and nugatory. It would defeat the very object of the clause and he hoped, therefore, it would not be accepted.
  MR. PARKER SMITHhoped the House would adhere to the provision with the limitation suggested by the

  505
  Lord Advocate. The matter was fully discussed in Committee, and though the feeling there was that the words as they stood would constitute a sufficient provision against compulsory closing on an undue number of days, and that they would preclude a licensing authority proposing to include Saturdays and pay days, there could be no objection to making the object of the clause clearer, and to showing that only exceptional and special occasions were to be dealt with. Anyone acquainted with Scotland well knew what a difference it made in the streets if at critical times the liquor shops were closed. The provision was carried in the Committee by twenty-seven to ten, and he honed that on this question at least the English Members would allow themselves to be guided by the views of the Scottish Members on both sides of the House.
  CAPTAIN SINCLAIRsaid it would be necessary to negative the Amendment in order that the Lord Advocate's limitation might be introduced.
  THE EARL OF DALKEITHregretted that the Lord Advocate had not repeated the speech he made upstairs. It was, in his opinion, most undesirable that the licensing authorities should be able to close public houses on different days. Not to have a regular system would be most inconvenient.
  MAJOR JAMESONintervened in the debate because he held this to be an Imperial question. If the clause were passed as it stood, it would be possible for the licensing authorities to close liquor shops on any day of the week they chose. He objected to that, and he hoped, therefore, that the Amendment would be pressed to a division. It would be a gross injustice to everybody connected with the trade, and a great inconvenience to the public. He did not like this wretched grandmotherly legislation. Presently they would be told by law what they were to have for breakfast. The liberty of the subject ought not to be thus infringed upon,
  506
  and he therefore hoped that every Member of the House would support the Amendment.
  MR CROMBIEpointed out that these by-laws when made would not become operative until they had been approved by the Secretary for Scotland, and it was unlikely that unreasonable by-laws would be sanctioned.
  SIR MARK STEWARThoped the House would not alter the clause. He had received many communications indicating that this was deemed to be one of the most valuable provisions of the Bill, and he hoped, therefore, it would not be passed in an emasculated form.
  MR. DALZIELsaid it was remarkable that the opposition to the clause came from two hon. Members, one from England and the other from Ireland. Surely the hon. Member for West Clare, if he were true to his Home Rule principles, would allow Scottish Members to settle this question for themselves. It was a purely Scottish question, and certainly did not rise to high Imperial heights. It was ridiculous to suggest that the Edinburgh or Dundee Councils were not competent to make by-laws with regard to a matter of that kind. He regretted very much the attitude of the Lord Advocate. Why by did he not stand by the proposal as contained in the Bill? It was a pity he had no settled convictions. Let him institute an inquiry; it could have only one result. What was he going to do in regard to this Amendment?
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: I shall vote against it.
  MR. PIRIEhoped the English supporters of the Government would be informed that they were at perfect liberty to vote how they liked on this question.
  MR. BUCHANANdid not think the Lord Advocate had behaved quite fairly in this matter. [Cries of "Oh, oh!"] There

  507
  was a majority of three to one in the Committee in favour of the clause, but now the right hon. Gentleman was proposing to introduce limitations, which showed that he had not much confidence in the authorities he was setting up. The clause did not empower the licensing authorities to shut up licensed premises as many days as they liked; it merely gave them a certain discretion on certain public occasions, and that discretion was subject to the veto of the Secretary for Scotland. It was, in fact, the most limited power they could give to the licensing authorities they were setting up.
  MR. GROVESexplained that he moved the Amendment on behalf of an hon. friend. It was only fair to himself to state that he had never done any business in Scotland, and he had no pecuniary interest in that country.
  SIR J. FERGUSSON, in order to come to a harmonious conclusion suggested it should be on a definite number of occasions to be approved by the Secretary for Scotland. If so agreed the number should not exceed five.
  SIR J. STIRLING MAXWELLsaid there was no understanding in Committee on the part of the Ministry with regard to this point.
  MR. ASHERsaid he was responsible for the instructions in Grand Committee for the words "special reasons." There was no understanding that the operation of this part of the clause should be limited to a given number of days, indeed, the words at the end, "for special reasons," were inserted for the express purpose of preventing the licensing authorities from closing houses. The number of days might vary from time to time. There might be a special day one year which might not be applicable in another year. The view taken in Committee was that wider discretion should be given to the licensing authorities in this matter.
  MR. BRYCEsaid it appeared to him that this provisional power was guarded not only by the addition of the words "for special reasons," but also by the requirement of the consent of the Secretary for Scotland. He could not imagine it being opposed. His impression was that it was not likely to be extended to the number of days suggested, and the House did not incur the slightest risk in accepting it. He was glad to hear that the Lord Advocate was himself of that opinion.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 23, line 40, to leave out the word 'occasions' and insert the words 'days not being more than four in any one year."—(The Lord Advocate.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'occasions' stand part of the Bill."
  MR. DALZIELsaid it seemed to him in view of the decision that the House had just arrived at, they ought to be given some reason why they should limit it to four days in the year, because the whole debate turned on the question of whether they were going to trust the authorities. If that were so, they had decided to trust them, and why should they cut down their powers and limit them to four or five days. It seemed to him that they were unnecessarily restricting the authority of their powers, and therefore he opposed the Amendment.
  MR. PARKER SMITHdid not think Amendment really limited the powers any extent. The Lord Advocate had met them fairly on this point.
  MR. MUNRO FERGUSONalso thought the Lord Advocate had met them fairly. He was ready to support the Amendment.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 65; Noes, 181. (Division List No. 154.)

  AYES.

  Asher, Alexander

  Brigg, John

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Caldwell, James

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Samuel Herbert L. (Cleveland

  Cremer, William Randal

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Crombie, John William

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Levy, Maurice

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, E.)

  Dunn, Sir William

  Lloyd-George, David

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  Edwards, Frank

  Lough, Thomas

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Elibank, Master of

  M'Crae, George

  Toulmin, George

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benj.

  Wallace, Robert

  Fenwick, Charles

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

  Weir, James Galloway

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  White, Luke (York, E. R.

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil

  Newnes, Sir George

  Whitely, J. H. (Halifax)

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Partington, Oswald

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Lambert, George

  Priestley, Arthur

  Mr. Dalziel and Mr.

  Langley, Batty

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Harmsworth.

  NOES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Elliot, Hon A. Ralph Douglas

  Lloyd, Archie Kirkman

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Faber, E. B. (Hants, W.)

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Anstruther, H. T.

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W.

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Arrol, Sir William

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Milvain, Thomas

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Flower, Ernest

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Forster, Henry William

  Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S. W.

  Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

  Fyler, John Arthur

  Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.)

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch

  Garfit, William

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj.

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin and Nairn

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Gore, Hn. G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop

  Mount, William Arthur

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute

  Bill, Charles

  Greene, Hy. D. (Shrewsbury)

  Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry)

  Black, Alexander William

  Gretton, John

  Myers, William Henry

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Groves, James Grimble

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Brassey, Albert

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  O'Dowd, John

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Butcher, John George

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Pease, H. Pike (Darlington)

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick G.

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley)

  Percy, Earl

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Heath, James (Staffords. N. W.

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc.

  Henderson, Sir Alexander

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Chapman, Edward

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hn. H. (Somers't, E.

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E.

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Collings, Right Hon. Jesse

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Purvis, Robert

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Randles, John S.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Johnstone, Heywood

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop)

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Keswick, William

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton

  Kilbride, Denis

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Cullinan, J.

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Denny, Colonel

  Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks., N. R.)

  Roche, John

  Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph C.

  Leng, Sir John

  Runciman, Walter

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Russell, T. W.

  Doogan, P. C.

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Lowe, Francis William

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  510

  511

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Wilson, A. S. (York, E. R.)

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. Ox'd Univ.

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Tennant, Harold John

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

  Thomas, F. Freeman (Hastings

  Worsley-Taylor Henry Wilson

  Smith, H. C. (North'mb, Tyneside

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks)

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. E. M.

  Young, Samuel

  Spear, John Ward

  Valentia, Viscount

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Webb, Col. William George

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir Jn. M.

  Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton

  Hood and Mr. Fellowes.

  Stroyan, John

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne)

  Question put, and agreed to.

  Proposed words there inserted in the Bill.
  *MR. SHAW-STEWARTmoved—
  "In Clause 41, page 24, line 4, leave out 'excisable liquors' and insert 'wines and spirits."
  He said the object of the Amendment was to limit the corking or the stoppering of bottles to wines and spirits. When this Amendment was proposed in Committee it was only lost by a few votes. He would point out that under the Bill it would still be possible to obtain bottled beer and whisky from the grocers, and surely draught ales were milder than bottled ales and whisky. Another argument in favour of the Amendment was that there were areas of considerable extent in big towns where there were no public houses, and where people were in the habit of getting draught liquors from the licensed grocers. If this Amendment were not accepted would they not be driving the people either to consume stronger liquors or to agitate for more public houses to be set up in their midst. If he thought this Amendment would act against temperance he should not propose it, but he did think it was reasonable and convenient for the public that it should be passed. It would encourage the sale of light rather than strong liquor, and
  512
  he would point out that neither the Majority nor the Minority Report advocated any change in this respect.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 24, line 4, to leave out the words 'exciseable liquors,' and insert the words 'wines and spirits.'"—(Mr. Shaw-Stewart.)
  Question proposed, "That the words 'exciseable liquors' stand part of the Bill."
  MR. BUCHANANsaid he looked upon this as a very substantial alteration in the Bill. It meant that the very considerable amount of drink sold by the grocers would be sold openly on draught and not in sealed vessels. The trade which they carried on would be considerably altered by this Amendment, and it ought not to be accepted without some explanation from the Lord Advocate.
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYdid not think the point a very great one. It only applied to draught beer sold by grocers. So far as he could gather from the evidence brought before him he did not think there had been any abuse in this matter by the grocers, and accordingly in Committee he voted to leave out the words "excisable liquors." So far as the Amendment went it was then beaten, not by a large majority, but by twenty-one to fifteen, and, without in any way binding the Government, he would

  513
  follow his own opinion and vote in its support.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 76; Noes, 159. (Division List No. 155.)

  AYES.

  Asher, Alexander

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Black, Alexander William

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. H. (Som'rs't, E

  Runciman, Walter

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Russell, T. W.

  Brigg, John

  Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.

  Samuel, Herbt. L. (Cleveland)

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh

  Lambert, George

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Langley, Batty

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall

  Smith, H. C. (North'mb, Tyneside

  Caldwell, James

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasg.)

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Taylor, Theo. C. (Radcliffe)

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark.)

  Leng, Sir John

  Tennant, Harold John

  Cremer, William Randal

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.

  Crombie, John William

  Levy, Maurice

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyc

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Lough, Thomas

  Thomas, F. Freeman (Hastings

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  M'Crae, George

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R).

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  M'Laren. Sir Charles Benj.

  Toulmin, George

  Dunn, Sir William

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney)

  Edwards, Frank

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Weir, James Galloway

  Elibank, Master of

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Newnes, Sir George

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Partington, Oswald

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Philipps, John Wynford

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Mr. Buchanan and Mr.

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Eugene Wason.

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tyd

  Priestley, Arthur

  NOES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F.

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Denny, Colonel

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hu. Arthur Fred

  Anstruther, H. T.

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Jos. C.

  Johnstone, Heywood

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop)

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Kerr, John

  Arrol, Sir William

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Keswick, William

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Faber, E. B. (Hants, W.)

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Ed.

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool

  Baird, John (George Alexander

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N. R

  Balcarres, Lord

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r.

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Lowe, Francis William

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj.

  Flower, Ernest

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Forster, Henry, William

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S. W.

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Bill, Charles

  Fyler, John Arthur

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Brassey, Albert

  Garfit, William

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Godson, Sir, Augustus Frederick

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Bull, William James

  Gordon, Hn J. E. (Elgin and N'rn

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Butcher, John George

  Gore, Hn. G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Greene, Hy. D. (Shrewsbury)

  Milvain, Thomas

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Gretton, John

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Chapman, Edward

  Groves, James Grimble

  Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E.

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Heath, Arthur H. (Harley)

  Mount, William Arthur

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton

  Heath, James (Staffs., N. W.)

  Murphy, John

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Henderson, Sir Alexander

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Myers, William Henry

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Valentia, Viscount

  O'Dowd, John

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. H.

  O'K'elly, Conor (Mago, N.)

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Wellby, Lt-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton

  Pease, Herbt, Pike (Darlington

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-und-Lyne

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.

  Percy, Earl

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Wilson, John (Glasgow

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

  Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Young, Samuel

  Purvis, Robert

  Spear, John Ward

  Randles, John S.

  Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Stirling-MaxWell, Sir John M.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Stroyan, John

  Mr. Shaw-Stewart and Sir

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ

  Charles Renshaw.

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Words "wines and spirits" there inserted in the Bill.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 24, line 19, to leave out the words 'with other information as may be considered by them necessary.'"—(Mr. Gretton,)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  SIR JOHN LENGmoved to omit the words in Clause 42 "to be consumed on the premises." He said that the object of the Amendment was to ensure the premises of grocers and dealers who held licences being dealt with in precisely the same way as ordinary licensed premises. He failed to see why any distinction should be drawn.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 25, line 2, to leave out the words 'to be consumed on the premises.'"—(Sir John Leng.)
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYdid not think it was at all necessary that the licensing authority should have the same command over the structural arrangements of grocers' premises as they had in the case of public-houses. He should therefore resist the Amendment.
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
  The House proceeded to a division.
  Sir A. ACLAND-HOOD, and Mr. AILWYN FELLOWES were appointed
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  Tellers for the Ayes; but no Member being willing to act as Teller for the Noes, Mr. SPEAKER declared that the Ayes had it.
  SIR JOHN LENGmoved to omit the words "in that part of the premises where excisable liquor is sold or consumed." He said that this raised a different question from the last Amendment, and referred particularly to the sanitary conveniences, which it was very desirable should be brought under the supervision of the licensing authority.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 25, lines 28 and 29, to leave out the words 'in that part of the premises where excisable liquor is sold or consumed."—(Sir John Leng.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
  And, it being Midnight, consideration of the Bill, as amended (by the Standing Committee), stood adjourned.
  Bill, as amended (by the Standing Committee), to be further considered upon Wednesday.

  DAY INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS (IRELAND) BILL.
  Considered in Committee; Committee report Progress; to sit again to-morrow.

  CHURCH DISCIPLINE BILL.
  Considered in Committee; Committee report Progress; to sit again to-morrow.
  Adjourned at seven minutes after Twelve o'clock.