Commons Sitting of 7 July 1903

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.
UNOPPOSED PBIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  PRIVATE BILLS [LORDS] (STANDING ORDERS NOT PREVIOUSLY INQUIRED INTO COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of

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  Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, viz.:—Shropshire and Worcestershire Electric Power Bill [Lords].
  Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time.
  Hampton Court Gas Bill, Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
  Baker Street and Waterloo Railway (Extension of Time) Bill, read the third time, and passed.
  Frinton-on-Sea Sea Defences Bill [Lords]; Pontypridd Urban District Council Bill [Lords]; South Lancashire Tramways Bill [Lords]. As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
  Aston Manor Improvement Bill [Lords] (by Order). As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
  Castleblaney, Keady, and Armagh Railway (Extension of Time) Bill. Ordered, That, in the case of the Castleblaney, Keady, and Armagh Railway (Extension of Time) Bill, Standing Orders 211, 236, and 237 be suspended, and that the Committee of Selection have leave to appoint the Committee on the Bill to sit and proceed forthwith.—(Mr. Caldwell.)
  Kingston-upon-Hull Corporation Bill. Ordered, That, in the case of the Kingston-upon-Hull Corporation Bill, Standing Order 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time.—(Mr. Caldwell.)
  Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed.
  Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Provisional Order Bill. Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 13) Bill. Read the third time, and passed.

  STANDING ORDERS.
  Resolutions reported from the Select Committee.

  1. "That, in the case of the North Western Electricity and Power Gas Bill
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  [Lords], the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with. That the parties be permitted to proceed with their Bill."

  2. "That, in the case of the North Metropolitan Electric Power Supply Bill [Lords], the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with. That the parties be permitted to proceed with their Bill."

  3. "That, in the case of the Taff Vale Railway Bill [Lords], Petition for dispensing with Standing Order 129 in the case of the Petition of the Urban District Council of Mountain Ash against the Bill, the said Standing Order ought not to be dispensed with."

  First two Resolutions agreed to
  Report to lie upon the Table.

  MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
  That they have agreed to—
  Military Lands Provisional Orders Bill, without Amendment.
  Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 7) Bill, with an Amendment.
  Cheshire Lines Committee Bill.
  Merthyr Tydvil Urban District Council Bill.
  Grindleford, Baslow, and Bakewell Railway Bill.
  Highland and Invergarry and Fort Augustus Railway Companies Bill, with Amendments.
  Amendment to Education Board Provisional Orders Confirmation (East Ham, etc.) Bill [Lords].
  Amendments to British Gas Light Company (Norwich) Bill [Lords], without Amendment.
  Gas and Water Orders Confirmation Bill [Lords]. Second Reading deferred till Thursday (Evening Sitting).
  Water Orders Confirmation Bill [Lords]. Read a second time, and committed.
  Carmarthenshire Electric Power Bill [Lords]; Fife Electric Power Bill [Lords].

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  Reported, with Amendments; Reports to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
  Local Government Provisional Order (No. 15) Bill. Reported [Provisional Order not confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.

PETITIONS.
  CHURCH DISCIPLINE BILL.
  Petition from Henfield, against; to lie upon the Table.
  LICENCES RENEWAL AND TRANSFER BILL AND LICENSING LAW (COMPENSATION FOR NON-RENEWAL) BILL.
  Petition against: from Heywood; Swinton; and Eccles; to lie upon the Table.
  LICENSING (SCOTLAND) ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
  Petition from Dalkeith, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  ANKYLOSTOMIASIS.
  Copy presented, of Reports by Mr. J. R. Mulvany, His Majesty's Consul-General at Düsseldorf, and Dr. F. Ph. Koenig, the British Vice-Consul, on the outbreak of Ankylostomiasis in the Westphalian Colliery District in Germany [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  GAS AND WATER WORKS FACILITIES ACT, 1870.
  Copy presented, of Report by the Board of Trade as to dispensing with the consent of the Borden Parish Council in the case of the Mid Kent Water Provisional Order [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 241.]
  TRADE REPORTS (MISCELLANEOUS SERIES).
  Copy presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Miscellaneous Series, No. 593 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  Copies presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, Nos. 3016 to 3019 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Re-adjustment of Ecclesiastical Endowments.
  MR. CHANNING: To ask the hon. Member for West Salford, as Church Estates Commissioner, what is approximately the present annual value (as defined in the fifth section of the Incumbents Resignation Act (1871) Amendment Act, 1887), of the benefice of St. Botolph, Bishopsgate, in the City of London; what communications (if any) have passed between the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and the Bishop of London, as patron of the living, with regard to the surrender by the next presentee of a portion of the income of the benefice, and to what purpose or purposes it is proposed that the amount so surrendered should be applied; and whether the Ecclesiastical Commissioners will consider the question of applying to Parliament for further powers to enable them to enforce a re-adjustment of endowments in such cases for the benefit of poor benefices.
  (Answered by Mr. Lees Knowles.) In a Return (No. 78, of 1902), made by the Bishop of London pursuant to an Order of the House of Lords, the annual value of this benefice is stated as £2,300. There has been no communication between the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and the Bishop of London as to the surrender by the next incumbent of any portion of the income. The Ecclesiastical Commissioners have already power, with consent of the patron and Bishop, to frame schemes for ratification by His Majesty in Council for apportioning the income of a benefice between it and other benefices in the same patronage.

  House of Commons—Ventilation Committee—Publication of Report.
  MR. WYLIE: To ask the hon. Member for West Derby shire, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, when the Report of the Select Committee appointed to inquire into the ventilation and sanitary arrangements of the House of Commons will be presented.

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  (Answered by Mr. Victor Cavendish.) The date of the presentation of the Report is rather a matter for the Committee than the First Commissioner of Works. But the First Commissioner understands that the Committee is now considering its Report.

  Wheat Exports from Canada and the United States.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: To ask the President of the Board of Trade it he can state what proportion of the wheat imported last year ostensibly from the United States was in reality of Canadian growth, owing to the railway facilities offered by the American companies and the shipping advantages from American ports; and, further, if the Intelligence Department of the Board 6f Trade is in possession of information as to the relative area of the land suitable for wheat awaiting development in the United States and in the Dominion of Canada respectively.
  (Answered by Mr. Bonar Law.) I regret that it is not possible to state what proportion of the wheat recorded in the Trade Accounts of the United Kingdom, as having been imported from the United States last year was of Canadian growth or vice versâ. The answer to the second portion of the Question is in the negative.

  Railway Facilities in Anglesey.
  MR. ELLIS GRIFFITH: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the railway arrangements for the county of Anglesey; is he aware that the first ordinary train does not leave Holyhead until 8 a.m., making it impossible for business men to reach the nearest English towns until afternoon; that the last stopping train leaves at 6 p.m., causing inconvenience to country people who wish to do business at Holyhead on market and other days; that owing to the distances between stations a large part of the county is not accorded convenient railway facilities; and that, although their attention has been called to these and other facts, and the grievances have been admitted by them, the London and North Western Railway Company have
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  not taken any steps to meet the wants of the district; and, if so, whether he will bring pressure to bear on the company to cause them to establish a more satisfactory train service, and to erect new stations in the county.
  (Answered by Mr. Bonar Law.) The Board have brought the hon. Member's Question to the notice of the railway company referred to. They cannot further intervene in questions of passenger traffic arrangements, which, must be left to the discretion of the several railway companies.

  Wheat Imports into Germany.
  COLONEL DENNY: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade if he can state what is the duty per quarter upon wheat charged upon entry into Germany; and what is the present price of wheat in Germany as compared with the price of the same quality in Great Britain.
  (Answered by Mr. Bonar Law.) If my hon. friend will be good enough to refer to the printed answers to Questions given yesterday† (page 1252) he will see that I have already answered this Question.

  Law of Valuation—Introduction of Fresh Legislation.
  MR. LUKE WHITE: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he can state when it is intended to introduce the measure for improving the Law of Valuation and Assessment.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) I cannot at present state when I shall be in a position to introduce the Bill referred to.

  Performing Bears in Public Streets.
  MR. BROOKE ROBINSON: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the attention of the police has been drawn to one, if not two, performing bears that have for several weeks past been in the streets of the Metropolis; and whether, in view of what occurred upon a previous occasion,
  † See page 1375.

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  the police will now, before a fatal accident happens, require these bears to be taken away from the Metropolis.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.) The police have been paying due attention to this matter, and since the 1st May have taken action in six cases in different parts of the Metropolis. In two cases convictions were obtained, in the other cases the defendants were discharged The police have no power to require that these bears shall be removed, and can only intervene when they are the cause of obstruction or are exhibited to the annoyance of inhabitants or passers by.

  Disorderly Houses in Southwark.
  CAPTAIN NORTON: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called by the Council of the Borough of Southwark to the difficulty experienced in dealing with disorderly houses in their district, in view of refusals of magistrates presiding at police Courts in the borough to convict, and of the penalties imposed in the case of persons prosecuted for keeping disorderly houses, and whether he can take any steps in the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers Douglas.) A complaint was made to me last year by the Council of the Borough of Southwark to the effect indicated, but I cannot say that the facts of the particular case to which reference was made were such as to satisfy me that the complaint was well-founded. The magistrates dealing with these cases exercise a discretion with which I have no power to interfere.

  Irish Agricultural Department—Clerical Staff.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in regard to the clerical staff of the Agricultural Department, he will endeavour to obtain precise particulars respecting the nature and result of the representations to the Treasury, in the case of the gentlemen whose services range from nine to eleven years and whose salaries are still considerably under £100 a year, made at the time it was proposed to promote a tem-
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  porary clerk with approximately two years service to a staff post with salary rising to £250 per annum.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The Department recommended that the salaries of two of the five clerks who had from nine to eleven years service, and whose remuneration at the time was under £100 a year, should be increased to £120, and that the increment of salary in the cases of the other three clerks should be increased to £5 a year. The first of these proposals was agreed to by the Treasury.

  Petrol—Suggested Extraction from Irish Beet and Potatoes.
  MR. BOLAND: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether, seeing that the petrol used for motor-cars is a purely foreign product, experiments will be made by the Department of Agriculture with a view to supplanting its use by alcohol extracted from Irish-grown beetroot and potatoes.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The matter is engaging the attention of the Department.

  Irish Land Commission—Entailed Estates.
  COLONEL WYNDHAM-QUIN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland how, upon the sale to the Land Commission of an entailed family mansion-house and demesne land by a tenant for life, the purchase money will be dealt with and how the rights of the remaindermen will be preserved; and whether, upon such mansion-house and demesne land being resold to the tenant for life in consideration of a rent-charge, they will, subject to the rent-charge, be subject to the original entail and the rights of the remaindermen secured to them, and how this will be accomplished.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The purchase money will be paid over to the trustees of the settlement, to be held by them on the trust of that settlement. The intention of the Bill is that the demesne or lands re-purchased shall be held free and discharged from the trusts of the settlement, but the question is, with others affecting the matter, under consideration.

  Extra Police at Bruree, County Limerick.
  MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will explain why extra police have been drafted into the village of Bruree, in the county of Limerick, on whom will the cost fall, and will he now direct that they be re moved as the place is peaceable.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) Three constables were sent to Bruree in consequence of a strike in the neighbourhood; two of them have since been withdrawn. The third constable will return to his station when his services are no longer required. The cost of the extra constables will be defrayed from the Constabulary Vote.

  Accommodation for Members of Parliament at Aldershot Review.
  MAJOR RASCH: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether any enclosure or accommodation will be provided for Members of the House of Commons at Aldershot on Wednesday.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) Owing to the short notice of the changed date of the Review, in view of the visit of President Loubet, it was not possible to erect stands to see the Review. Arrangements were made to make any accommodation which was possible available, and an announcement was inserted in the newspapers requesting that those desiring tickets for the Review at Alder-shot should apply to the General Officer Commanding there, and I understand that the available space has been allotted to the very utmost extent possible.

  London University—Positions of Profit for Members of Senate.
  MR. CORRIE GRANT: To ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, as members of the Senate of the University of London have now been appointed to paid offices under the Senate as professors and examiners, although under the former charter no member of the Senate was eligible as an examiner, he will propose an Amendment of the University of London Act, making members of the Senate ineligible for such positions of emolument.
  (Answered by Mr. A. J. Balfour.) The University of London as constituted under charter was merely an examining commission awarding diplomas and degrees to students trained in institutions having no organic connection with the University or to students trained by private study. It was therefore very desirable that the commission that awarded the honours and settled the schemes of examination should not appoint themselves to the office of examiner in receipt of a salary. The present University, on the other hand, as reconstituted by the Act of 1898, is a teaching University, created with the purpose of giving the teachers a share in the work of the University, whether by examination, by teaching, or by research. The receipt of a salary from the University chest does not preclude a professor or internal examiner at Oxford or Cambridge from a share in the government of those Universities, and from a seat on a Syndicate or Delegacy or Council of the Senate, and any such restriction would cripple the power of the University to call to its aid its most distinguished teachers and examiners.

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  Religious Instruction in Public Elementary Schools.
  MR. MANSFIELD: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Education if he will alter the by-law respecting the hours of attendance of children in public elementary schools, so that only those children shall be compelled to attend the schools during the time devoted to religious instruction whose parents have sent a written request to the managers, expressing the wish that their children shall be present during such instruction.
  *THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOABD OF EDUCATION (Sir WILLIAM ANSON,): The proposal contained in the Question docs not appear to the Board to be in accordance with the requirements of Section 7(1) of the Elementary Education Act of 1870, and is not, therefore, such as the Board could properly adopt. I may draw the hon. Member's

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  attention to the new model by-laws recently issued by the Board, which, they are advised, follow exactly Section 7 (1) of the Act of 1870; in districts where these are adopted by the local authority, parents will be able to withdraw their children in all cases from the school premises during the time set apart for instruction in religious subjects.

  Education Rate—Passive Resistance.
  MR. MANSFIELD: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board if his attention has been drawn to the seizure of goods for the non-payment of education rates, and to the fact that the value of the goods seized has been in most cases in excess of the amount of the rate demanded; will he state whether the authorities have his sanction in seizing goods in excess of the amount required; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter to ensure a more equitable administration of the law.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. WALTER LONG,): I have seen newspaper reports of cases where goods have been taken on account of the non-payment of rates, but I do not know what was the value of the goods taken. It is a general rule of law that an excessive distress is an illegal proceeding for which the person aggrieved would have his remedy by action. Whether in any particular instance the distress is excessive is a legal question to be determined according to all the circumstances of the case. The matter is not one with respect to which I have any jurisdiction, and I do not propose to take any action with regard to it.

  Newry Sessions—Jurors.
  MR. MACVEAGH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that jurors are summoned to the Newry Sessions from the whole of the barony of Iveagh, Lower Half, although two-thirds of that barony is situate in the Downpatrick Sessions District; and whether, in view of the inconvenience caused to the jurors thus summoned, he will take steps to have the practice discontinued.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM,): The Jurors' Book is prepared by the Clerk of the Crown and Peace from lists made by the clerks of unions. Complaints have been made to the effect mentioned in the Question; but the mistakes originate, I understand, in the lists supplied by clerks of unions. The Clerk of the Crown and Peace will personally look into the matter and endeavour to have the defects remedied at the next Revision Sessions in September.
  Mr. MACVEAGH: I think the Jury List is prepared by the Sub-Sheriff and not the Clerk of the Crown and Peace.

  Dublin Detectives and the Camera.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that detectives of the Dublin police are giving annoyance to some citizens of Dublin by photographing them; and, if so, will he state who is responsible for this conduct of the police; and whether he will order it to be discontinued.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I understand that one or two constables in plain clothes took "snapshots" of individuals in the streets. Complaint having been made, the police will not act in this manner in future.

  Irish Local Government.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland to state whether he proposes in the next session of Parliament to introduce any further amending Local Government (Ireland) Act.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I cannot give any undertaking with respect to legislation next session.

  Crime in County Longford.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that, at the June quarter sessions for County Longford, County Court Judge Curran complimented the Grand Jury on the peaceful state of the county; that at the summer

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  assizes there was not one custody case for trial and practically no criminal business to be done; and, if so, whether, in these circumstances, he proposes to continue the application to the county of the clauses of the Criminal Law and Procedure (Ireland) Act, 1887, now in force there.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The matter is engaging the consideration of the Government.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: When may we have the fruit of the consideration?
  MR. WYNDHAM: When we reach the gap between the Committee and Report stages of the Irish Land Bill I will give personal attention to the matter.

  Irish County Council Accounts.
  MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Local Government Board have approved of the form of the new ledger required by the secretaries of County Councils in view of recent legislation; and whether, owing to the public inconvenience that has been created by the fact that the copyright ledgers now in use are out of print and new copies are not available, the Local Government Board will themselves issue a form of ledger suitable for the altered requirements of the County Councils.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The accounts which must be kept in the county-ledger have been prescribed by the Local Government Board, but it has not prescribed a particular form of ledger, nor is it considered desirable to do so.

  Ballymote Fair-Rent Appeals.
  MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Land Commission have made any investigation into the complaint from Mr Thomas M. Killoran, Ballymote, that an appeal was heard by them against the fair rent fixed by the sub-Commissioners on the 19th June, 1900, on a holding on the estate of Colonel French, which he purchased from Mrs. Kate Shaw, formerly Roddy, although no notice of appeal was served on Mr. Killoran or Mr. Shaw; and, if so, will he say with what result.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Mr. Killoran was present at the inspection of the holding by the Assistant Commissioners in March last, and also gave evidence on the re-hearing of the case at Sligo in April.
  MR. TULLY: Has inquiry been made as to why the notice has not been served on the tenant?
  MR. WYNDHAM: I cannot say.

  Irish Land Bill—Definition of "Occupiers of Land."
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, whether the words "occupiers of land," in Clause 19, page 11, line 27, include labourers who are tenants of a Rural District Council.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Technically, I think, labourers in occupation of labourers' cottages as tenants to the District Council would come within the description, but of course, the Land Commission should make proper pro visions to safeguard the interests of the District Council, so that the right would be appurtenant to the cottage and not a personal right of the labourer.

  Head Rent.
  MR. O'SHAUGIINESSY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he would insert a clause in the Irish Land Bill giving tenants who purchased their holdings under the 24th Section of the Land Law (Ireland) Act 1881, subject to a head rent, the right to purchase this head rent at a price to be fixed by the Land Commission.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The financial scheme of the Act of 1881 was essentially different from that of the present Bill. The cases of the nature mentioned are few in number and it would be quite impossible to open up past transactions.

  Cork Model Schools.
  MR. FLYNN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he has received information that the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland have refused admission to the officials of

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  the Cork Technical Instruction Committee; that on Saturday the head and assistant masters of the Technical School were refused admission, and will he take any steps to prevent the work of technical education in Cork being brought to a standstill.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I cannot say more than that as soon as the Committee stage of the Irish Land Bill is completed—which I assume will be at an early hour to-morrow—I will give this and other matters attention. At present I find it impossible to do so.

  Japan and Russia.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLESI desire to ask a Question of which I have given private notice. Have the Government any information to the effect that Japan is mobilising her forces and that an outbreak of hostilities in the far East between that country and Russia is impending? Have the Government taken, or do they propose to take any steps to induce these two countries to resort for the settlement of the differences between them to the tribunal of The Hague, or do they propose in any other way to use their good offices to prevent hostilities? Can I, in the absence of the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs, have an answer from my hon. and gallant friend, or from the Home Secretary?
  *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. AKERS DOUGLAS,): As no notice has been given of the Question I cannot answer it.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg your pardon, I gave notice to the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs.
  *MR. AKERS DOUGLAS: But you did not give me any notice.

  The Review at Aldershot.
  Referring to an unstarred Question which appeared on the Paper in the name of Major Rasch.
  DR. FARQUHARSON: As time is pressing, I desire to ask whoever happens to be leading
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  the House at this moment whether he can give any information as to Question No. 38, whether any accommodation will be provided for Members at Aldershot on Wednesday.
  *MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member should have starred his Question.
  DR FARQUHARSON: The Question is not mine.
  *MR. SPEAKER: That is an additional reason why the hon. Member should not ask it.
  DR. FARQUHARSON: May I ask it on my own account?
  *MR. SPEAKER: It is not in order when an hon. Member has an unstarred Question on the Paper for another hon. Member to get up and ask it.
  DR. FARQUHARSON: Perhaps some Member of the Government would like to volunteer an answer to the Question?
  [No reply was returned.]

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  MR. PIRIE: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he can now give any indication as to when the Vote for the salary of the Secretary of State for War will be taken; and if, in view of the important subjects to be discussed and the fact that there has been no opportunity for the discussion of many recent military events and developments, he will allow two days for the remaining Military Votes.
  THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Sir A. ACLAND-HOOD,)said: My right hon. friend has authorised me to say that the Vote for the salary of the Secretary of State for War will be taken either on Thursday week or Thursday fortnight. As regards the second part of the Question, I have been desired to say that the Government can hold out no hope of giving two full Supply days to the Army Estimates, in view of the

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  claims of other important services which have not yet been before the House.
  MR. PIRIE: As there was an understanding that the debate should not be delayed until too late in the session, I hope it will be fixed for Thursday week.
  SIR A. ACLAND-HOOD: I will mention that to the First Lord.
  MR. COURTENAY WARNER: Will any time be allowed for the Militia Vote to be discussed? It has not been debated for years.
  SIR A. ACLAND-HOOD: I cannot say, but I should hope some of the time set apart for the Army Estimates will be given to it.
  *SIR CHARLES DILKE: Is it still intended to take the Naval Works Bill first on Friday? May it be assumed that if the Irish Land Bill is not finished this evening it will be taken as the first order to-morrow, and that the business which has been put first to-morrow will come after it?
  SIR A. ACLAND-HOOD: The right hon. Gentleman is correct as to the course which will be adopted to-morrow. Should the Education Vote be passed in reasonable time on Thursday, it is proposed to take Class 2 of the Scotch Vote immediately afterwards. On Friday it is proposed to take the Report stage of the Scotch Licensing Bill, and on Monday it is intended to take the Second Reading of the Naval Works Bill.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: What about the London Education Bill?
  SIR A. ACLAND-HOOD: The London Education Bill will probably be taken on Tuesday.

  NATIONAL EXPENDITURE.
  Report from the Select Committee, with Minutes of Evidence and an Appendix, brought up, and read.
  Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 242.]

  LICENSING ACTS (SCOTLAND) CONSOLIDATION AND AMENDMENT HILL, consolidated from LICENSING (SCOTLAND) ACTS AMENDMENT BILL AND LICENSING ACTS CONSOLIDATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Reported from the Standing Committee on Trade etc., with Amendments.
  Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 243.]
  Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed. [No. 243.]
  Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be considered upon Thursday, and to be printed [Bill 267.]

  STANDING COMMITTEES (CHAIRMAN'S PANEL).
  Sir JAMES FERGUSSON reported from the Chairman's Panel; That they had appointed Mr. John Edward Ellis to act as Chairman of the Standing Committee for the consideration of Bills relating to Law and Courts of Justice and Legal Procedure, at the conclusion of the consideration of the Prevention of Corruption Bill [Lords], in the place of Mr. Stuart-Wortley.
  Report to lie upon the Table.

  SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).
  MR. HALSEY reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Members from the Standing Committee on Trade (including Agriculture and Fishing), Shipping, and Manufactures; Mr. Black, Colonel Denny, Mr. Charles Douglas, Sir Wilfrid Lawson, Sir Charles Cayzer, Mr. Round. Mr. Eugene Wason, Earl of Dalkeith, and Mr. Young; and had appointed in substitution: Mr. Burt, Mr. Dillon, Colonel Long, Sir William Mather, Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes, Mr. Lonsdale, Mr. Charming. Mr. Garfit, and Mr. O'Malley.
  Report to lie upon the Table.

  BISHOPRICS OF SOUTHWARK AND BIRMINGHAM BILL [LORDS],
  Read the first time; to be read a second time Tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 268.]

  IRISH LAND BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the chair.]
  Clause 65.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 32, line 22, to leave out the word 'seven,' and insert the word 'two.'"—(Mr. William O'Brien.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'seven' stand part of the clause."
  *MR. O'DOWDsaid this particular stage of the Bill was of the most supreme importance to the people of the congested districts in Ireland. This and some subsequent Amendments dealt with the question of congestion in the West of Ireland, and in his opinion, if the subject was not satisfactorily and courageously grappled with by the Government, the Bill would prove a disappointment and not a boon to the inhabitants of the western provinces. These people were agreed on one thing, and that was that unless some principle of popular representation was introduced into the constitution of the Congested Districts Board, and unless additional and compulsory powers were given to that body to acquire land, it would be impossible to enlarge the existing small holdings, the tide of emigration would not be stemmed, land could not be procured for landless people, and the land problem would remain unsolved. As to his own county of Sligo, that knew not the Congested Districts Board, it was divided into four unions, all of them being partly congested. In Boyle No. 2 Union there were thirteen electoral divisions, nine of which were unscheduled. The valuation of the unscheduled portion was £22,507, while that of the grazing farms was £4,560. The holdings under £8 in the unscheduled portion numbered 1,381. In two of the unscheduled divisions the gross valuation was £7,414, while the valuation of the grazing farms in the same division was £2,523 or over one-third of the whole. In the scheduled divisions the valuation was £8,557, and the number of the holdings under £8 was 1,059. These figures were characteristic
  1536
  of the state of the whole county, and clearly showed that it ought to be scheduled as a congested district. In the whole county of Sligo there were 9,117 holdings under £10 valuation, or nearly 70 per cent. of the whole, and it was safe to say that nearly 60 per cent. of these holdings were under £7 valuation. They had in Sligo county a population endeavouring to eke out a miserable existence on tracts of the reclaimed morass, while on the other hand they had deserts of the grazing lands in the hands of land jobbers and absentee landlords. Here was ample work for the Congested Districts Board, and unless some such scheme as that suggested by the hon. Member for Cork was accepted by the Government, how could the problem of the West be settled? He believed the right hon. Gentleman was sincerely desirous of securing a speedy settlement of the land question. They thanked him for his efforts, and for meeting them in the conciliatory spirit he had done. They thanked him also for the sympathy he had shown in the case of the evicted tenants and of the large farmers, and they now appealed to him to tackle this problem of the West boldly and courageously by granting the concessions asked for—concessions which could injure neither the Government, the landlord, nor the British taxpayer, but which would bring peace and happiness to the people of the congested districts.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELLagreed that in the opinion of those who represented the congested districts this was the most important part of the Land Bill. On the preceding evening they heard a good deal about the slow rate of progress made by the Congested Districts Board in Connaught. He thought there was still greater cause of complaint to be found in the South and South-west, where there had been an absolute and total neglect of large congested districts. What had the Board done in the county of Kerry during the last twelve years? With the best and most philanthropic intentions, it had done practically nothing. True, it had built piers around the sea coast which had been a help to fishermen in plying their dangerous calling, but

  1537
  beyond that, there had been no really useful reproductive work initiated or carried out by the Board in that county. It had been suggested that the Board had purposely confined its operations to one particular district because it was really experimenting, but, so far as he could gather, the people of that district even had not been satisfied with the work done. The inhabitants of Kerry, however, could not accept that explanation as a satisfactory reply to their demand. It had been said the condition of Kerry was not so bad as that of Connaught, but he ventured to say that the condition of Kerry was something which ought not to be tolerated in these days when science was progressing and when the state of the people in every civilised country was improving. It was a hopeless condition, which was driving the people out of the country. The population of Kerry was returned at 165,000; yet in the last fifty years no fewer than 211,000 had emigrated from that county alone. How were the people housed? According to a recent Return, no fewer than 333 families of five persons were living in one-roomed hovels; 271 families of six were similarly housed, and the same observation applied to 180 families of seven. And this state of things existed notwithstanding the fact that no fewer than 1,000 cottages had been erected under the Labourers Act. This was a deplorable state of things which the Congested Districts Board had power to deal with, and yet they had done absolutely nothing in Kerry to remedy it. What did the Poor Law Returns disclose? In Donegal one person in every 151 was supported out of the poor rate; in Mayo one in fifty-eight, and in Kerry one in thirty-five! Was it not time that something was done for Kerry? He might be asked what remedy he had to propose. His reply was that in many parts of the county there was land now going to waste. He knew of one particular tract of marsh land which forty or fifty years ago was growing wheat, but which, for want of an embankment, could not now be used for that purpose. All along the verge of that land were poor people huddled in small holdings, and among these this land might well be divided with great
  1538
  advantage. But Lord Ventry refuged to sell it, although an offer was made with a view to having it embanked and divided up. He had heard that day that the Board had made a start in Kerry by purchasing an estate of 100 acres; but what a poor show was that for eleven years labours! If the clause were passed in its present form, enabling the Board to hold farms for seven years, the inhabitants of the congested districts would have little to hope for from the Bill, and the tide of emigration would flow on uninterruptedly. They could not hope for good results until the people were represented on the Congested Districts Board. He held that the work could be more effectively performed by the County Councils, the members of which were drawn from the people and knew the needs of the people, and surely the House of Commons, which prided itself on its representative character, should be prepared to give to Ireland that slight extension of the representative principle.
  *MR. ROCHEsaid that according to the Returns recently issued there were only three counties in Ireland in which there were electoral divisions, in which the valuation was below 10s. per head of the population, and Galway was one of them. The average valuation of that country was only £1 0s. 4d. per head, and it was the third lowest county in Ireland in that respect. In the district in which he lived there were four electoral divisions scheduled under the Congested Districts Board, and yet so far nothing has been done to relieve the poverty of these districts. Within the four divisions there was not one solitary acre of grazing farm, whereas in the division which he represented there were at least 100,000 acres of the best land in Ireland occupied by graziers. As the Bill now stood there was no hope for the people of the poverty-stricken district to which he had referred. Generation after generation the manhood of the county had been driven to America and other countries in order to get a market for their labour which was refused them at home, and he told the Government that they were living in a fool's paradise if they thought the Bill as it stood would

  1539
  remedy the present terrible condition of things. The grazing system was in his opinion a greater curse to their country than landlordism, and he would never cease agitating until the rich grazing lands now practically lying idle were made available for dealing with the difficulty of the congestion. A curious anomaly in connection with this question was that unless the valuation of a division was below 30s. per head of population the inhabitants could get no benefit under the Congested Districts Act. There was the parish of Fahy and Queens borough in the Portumna Union which had 20,000 acres of land. The population consisted of about 150 families, and the Committee might well imagine that they were provided for as far as land was concerned. They were not, and why? Between 7,000 and 8,000 acres were, however, in the possession of seven or eight graziers, scarcely one of whom resided in the parish. In consequence of these large grazing tracts the valuation was assessed above 30s. per head; and the families he had mentioned, who lived in the bogs and morasses, were deprived of any benefit whatever under the Congested Districts Acts. Was there any provision to be made for bettering such a district as that? If not, how in the name of goodness could the Government expect those families to remain squatted in their miserable plots, while 7,000 or 8,000 acres were in the possession of graziers. The Committee might wonder how it was possible that there were such vast tracts of grazing land in that parish. He would inform them. Forty or fifty years ago, a Scotch gentleman named Pollock bought a large tract in Galway which extended along the Shannon and Suck from Banagher to the lower end of East Galway. Pollock alone evicted over 1,000 families who did not owe a penny of rent, and their comfortable farms and happy homes were turned into sheep walks and bullock pastures, the people being driven into the bogs and morasses. The attention of the right hon. Gentleman was called to the condition of the district by priests and people before he introduced this Bill. The same condition of affairs obtained in the parish of Eyrecourt. Forty years ago Eyrecourt was one of the most prosperous and thriving towns in the West of Ireland,
  1540
  with a population of about 1,000 inhabitants. To-day sixty or seventy houses were roofless—a standing monument to the work of the evicter—and the population had decreased to a fourth of what it was. They had heard a great deal about the little that was being done for the towns. He admitted that very little had been done; but the best and most beneficial work that could be done for the towns was to plant the people around them; and not until then would the towns be either prosperous or thriving. He spoke with great heat on this matter, because he lived amongst the people and saw their condition. He trusted that for the sake of the peace of the country and the preservation of the remnant of their race, the Chief Secretary would be equal to the occasion, and would hold out some hope for the future. Otherwise the right hon. Gentleman might rest assured that he would have to face in the future the same state of things that he had had to face in the past
  MR. WILLIAM O'BRIENsaid he was as anxious to expedite the discussion as he was to expedite the operations of the Congested District Board. He thought, however, that he two hours had been better spent in not whole course of the debates on the Bill than the two hours that had been spent on the discussion of the Amendment, if only for the declaration that the discussion had elicited from the Chief Secretary last night. If they could only embody in the Bill a report of the right hon. Gentleman's speech they really need not trouble themselves very much more about endeavouring to amend the clause. It was a very remarkable and important declaration. The right hon. Gentleman recognised as fully as they could desire that up to the present the operations of the Congested Districts Board had been disappointing, and worse than disappointing. The right hon. Gentleman said, as well as he could remember, that the Board would have to drive ahead in the future under different conditions and he recognised that the time for experiment and for elaborate improvement work had passed. He therefore presumed that the work of restoring the land to the people would now proceed rapidly and practically. That was a matter of the deepest satisfaction to all his hon. friends, and to the people in the

  1541
  West of Ireland; and undoubtedly it marked an epoch in the history of this great question. Unfortunately, the life of a speech in Parliament was very short; whereas the life of an Act of Parliament was very long. The Chief Secretary, as far as he understood him, did not indicate by what particular method he proposed to enforce his own very vigorous views as to the action of the Congested Districts Board. Now, while this Bill was under discussion, was his golden opportunity, and also their golden opportunity, for some practical action. He still felt very strongly that two years was a reasonable limit for the distribution of purchased land. The mere mention of seven years in the section was a sort of legal recognition that that period was not excessive. The Chief Secretary knew very well that if the Congested Districts Board could, so to speak, turn over their capital every year or two, progress would be very rapid; but if that were to be spread over seven years the result would be disappointing and the work would be kept going for another half century. The right hon. Gentleman himself named five years as the extreme limit that he thought necessary, even in the case of the poorest land. He himself thought that was an entirely excessive period; but if the right hon. Gentleman would even substitute five for seven in the clause, it would probably dispense with any further discussion on this particular Amendment, and would be accepted as an intimation that the right hon. Gentleman meant to have the views expressed in his speech last night translated into action by the Congested Districts Board. He hoped the Chief Secretary would see his way to accept that suggestion.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM,)said he agreed that the time spent in this discussion had not been wasted. It was only a narrow question, but it was a very important one. It was difficult to deal with any single matter in this Bill without some reference being made to a great many other matters interwoven with it, and on this subject they had had something resembling a Second Reading debate He had a good deal more to say upon this question which, however, could be
  1542
  more appropriately said upon an Amendment which appeared on the Paper lower down, when other speakers had taken part in the debate. He was not eager to accept this Amendment, even in its modified shape. He certainly hoped they would not take so long as five years, even in the most difficult cases, but the purport of this Amendment was that if they failed to carry through a transaction in five years they must expend their working capital which was now being engaged in other ways. They would have to sacrifice their working capital to the sinking fund of the Treasury. The hon. Gentleman thought it would have a stimulating effect on the Congested Districts Board, but it might have another effect altogether. They had a budget for their small circle just as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had for the Empire, and they could not take any risks. If the Congested Districts Board should submit a balance to the Treasury, and they were £15,000 or £20,000 out, what would happen? The credit of the Congested Districts Board and the work they wished to put forward would both suffer. If they restricted this financial elbow-room they risked the advantage they would have in buying large estates. With this seven years elbow-room they would go boldly in and buy almost all there was in the market forthwith; but if they had to consider that if they bought an estate they might not be able to complete their purchase in time, they would have to be more cautious. He thought they would be able to go forward in a better manner if they had not always to consider what the financial position would be in three or four years time. He hoped to see these things done within the five years, but if they could not be done in that time he would like the two years freedom to be given to the Board. He deprecated putting this unnecessary restriction upon the Congested Districts Board, but if the hon. Member thought it was necessary he would not take up time in contesting it.
  MR. WILLIAM O'BRIENsaid be should not care to press strongly his view in opposition to the right hon. Gentleman's own expression of opinion upon this subject. At the same time one of his chief objects in proposing

  1543
  the Amendment was to give the people of Ireland an assurance that the present slowcoach rate was going to be changed. He was satisfied the change in the time limit would have a very wholesome effect, and, as the right hon. gentleman was himself of opinion that five years would be the limit within which all reasonable negotiations would be brought to a conclusion, he would be glad if the right hon. Gentleman would accept the Amendment.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he had often appealed to hon. Members not to persist in Amendments which would affect his Report. This affected his Report, but if it was desired that he should lead his colleagues on more rapidly he would agree to it.
  *MR. CHARLES DEVLIN—who rose amid cries of "Agreed"—said he rose because he had pledged himself to his constituents to bring this particular subject before the Committee, and when he made a pledge he did his best to carry it out. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would take into consideration the condition of the district which extended for five miles right round the city of Galway. He did not know whether the right hon. Gentleman knew that district, but he questioned whether in the whole world there were spots where there was greater misery, poverty, or distress owing to the congestion that existed there than at Barna, Castlegar, and other points. They had been told that if the Government bought up the magnificent grazing lands there the people would not migrate to them, but the one outlet for these people was emigration, and if they would emigrate surely they would migrate. His constituents had wondered why the Congested Districts Board, which had done so much good for other parts, did nothing for them. But the answer was quite simple This particular district was outside the scope of that body. He asked the Chief Secretary to take this district into special consideration and have it scheduled as a congested district.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMONDalso appealed to the Chief Secretary before leaving this question to consider
  1544
  the advisability of scheduling the whole of Clare as a congested district.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid these questions could be more appropriately discussed at a later stage.
  Question put, and negatived.
  Amendment agreed to.
  DR. THOMPSONsaid the Amendment he now proposed to move sought to allow the County Councils of the congested districts to come together and elect two members to sit on the Congested Districts Board. They had done so in the past two or three years and had done good work. There was a great consensus of opinion in favour of such a change as was proposed by this Amendment and that of the hon. Member for North Louth which followed it, and he saw no reason why both Amendments should not be accepted. The Congested Districts Board would be greatly strengthened, and its proceedings would be more appreciated by the public. The Chief Secretary had steered this Bill almost into safe waters, and if he would adopt this Amendment, or something like it, it would add to the importance of the Congested Districts Board. He trusted most earnestly that the right hon. Gentleman would accept the Amendment, amended by the alteration of the word "and" for "who."
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 32, line 33, at end, to add the words '(4) The County Councils of the congested districts shall have the power to nominate two representatives to sit on the Congested Districts Board for three years, who shall possess the same rights and privileges as the other members of the Board.'"—(Dr. Thompson.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there added."
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid he desired to bear independent testimony that the scope of the operations of the Congested Districts Board had been beneficial. When that Board was first established they did not pay very much heed to its

  1545
  composition. At that time the name of Mr. Horace Plunkett was a strange one to them, but surely now the time had come for some reconsideration of this question. The hon. Member for Cork had spoken of the sluggish character of the operations of this Board. He was not sufficiently acquainted with the congested districts to speak with authority, but the assertion made by the hon. Member for Cork in regard to the small number of persons who had been migrated by the Board was a very remarkable statement. The Government had no answer to this question. The Board consisted of a number of very admirable gentlemen, and if they desired a non-elected Board he did not think they could obtain better men. The criticisms which had been made upon this clause showed that there was a demand that an element of popular representation should be added to the Board. At the present time they could not detect whether the action of a particular gentleman had led to unjust discrimination in the allocation of these funds or not, but if the county Members of Parliament or the County Councillors were sitting on that Board they would act as a counter check, and it would be some assurance that undue expenditure in regard to one district or too little in regard to another would be prevented. It was inevitable that complaints and jealousy would arise where they had only the nominated element. He would like to see some of the ecclesiastics of all denominations sitting on this Board, for they had been shut out from the County Councils and the District Councils by unjust legislation and they had also been excluded from the boards of guardians. If there was any Board on which these gentlemen were entitled to sit it was some such Board as the Congested Districts Board. He did not allude merely to Catholics but to Protestant representatives as well. He thought the Government had now arrived at a time when a change could very well be made. There was a precedent for this in the year 1900 when the scheme forming the Education Board came up for discussion. Upon that occasion he moved an extension of the numbers on the Board, and that was
  1546
  agreed to by the then Chief Secretary for Ireland, who was now the President of the Board of Trade.
  *MR. O'KELLYsaid he could not understand why the Chief Secretary objected to this Amendment. It had been frequently acknowledged by Mr. Horace Plunkett that his Board had received the greatest assistance from elected colleagues, and surely the Congested Board was in as great need of such assistance as the Department of Agriculture. He did not care what powers they gave to the Congested Districts Board, because they would not prove beneficial if the constitution of the Board was not altered, for without an alteration no real progress would be made. Not long ago he asked the Attorney-General for a Return in connection with these congested districts, and he was informed that they did not possess the information he desired. The various District Councils prepared those Returns, and if the Chief Secretary had read them he would get from them a better idea of the nature and extent of the congested problem than he would get from any Returns in possession of the Congested Districts Board. What had the Board done if they left out of consideration the Dillon Estate? Unless the personnel of the Board was either altered or strengthened it would never get out of its old ruts. Month after month large grazing lands were passing into the hands of private individuals through the neglect of the Congested Districts Board. ["No, no!"] Oh, but I say "Yes." Take, for example, the estates sold in Claremorris, which contained 700 acres of the finest grazing land in the country. The Congested Districts Board were asked to buy this land.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The hon. Member is leaving out of consideration the fact that the Board had no credit and no cash.
  *MR. O'KELLYsaid that was not the excuse which had been made to him. The Board were now going to have increased cash and credit, but that would be of no avail until the

  1547
  Congested Districts Board was made stronger. If the Chief Secretary wished to popularise the Congested Districts Board in the West and secure public confidence in it—something it wanted rather badly—he could not do better than ask the hon. Member for Cork and the hon. Member for East Mayo to come to his assistance and join the Board.
  DR. AMBROSEsaid that upon one occasion the Congested Districts Board sent a large staff down to Achil Island to teach the people how to grow oats. They told the fishermen that it was very foolish of them not to grow oats. They found a bit of ground and planted oats and he was told that they waited to see the crop growing up. When these officials got back to Dublin and inquiries were made about these experiments, the Congested Districts Board issued a circular stating that they did not approve of any communications being made to the Press upon this subject, as it would be contrary to the general regulations of the Board. If they had had on the Congested Districts Board representatives of the County Councils did anybody imagine that such an act of lunacy would have been tolerated. Unless they improved the constitution of the Congested Districts Board all its work would be of no avail.
  *MR. O'DOHERTYsaid he must disagree with the hon. Member for North Mayo when he stated that the Congested Districts Board had practically done nothing in Ireland. There never was a public Board established in Ireland by Parliament that had done more to justify its existence than the Congested Districts Board of Ireland. The greatest amount of credit should be given to the Leader of this House for having established that Board. A good deal had been said about the operations of the Board in Connaught and the way the Board had neglected its duty in carrying out the various schemes which had engaged its attention from time to time. He wished to point out to hon. Members who made those complaints that migration was not the sole duty of the Congested Districts Board. He represented a constituency which was scheduled as a congested district under the Act, and in his constituency the question of
  1548
  migration did not occur at all. There were such questions as the development of the fisheries, the draining of the land, the making of roads, and other matters which were just as important to the people of his constituency as the migratory schemes were to the people of the West. There were congested districts in Ireland outside Connaught, and there were other problems which affected the people just as much, and which had to be grappled with by the Congested Districts Board, He did not complain of the composition of the Congested Districts Board except to the extent that he agreed with the suggestion of the hon. and learned Member for Louth that they should have an Advisory Board, composed if not of a number of County Councillors of each congested district, at any rate of Members of Parliament representing the congested districts. In Donegal it had been said that they got more than their fair share of the loaves and fishes distributed by the Board, but hon. Members should remember the results that had accrued, not only to the people of Donegal, but to the Irish nation at large, from the operations of the Congested Districts Board. No less than £30,000 or £40,000 per annum was earned by the fishermen through the herring and mackerel fisheries established by the Board. This good work had not cost the Board one halfpenny, because they had been recouped by the money earned and that money had been taken away to Mayo to experiment upon the mackerel fishing there. A good deal had been said about the popular element being represented to a certain extent upon this. Board. Reference had been made to the men who should be upon this Board in whom the Irish people had confidence. So far as he was concerned he believed his people had the fullest confidence in the Board as at present constituted. The most Rev. Dr. O'Donnell Ford, Bishop of Raphoe, had rendered yeoman service for the people of the Congested Districts of Ireland and his services never would be forgotten. [Mr. WYNDHAM: "Hear, hear!"] There was also a man who enjoyed the confidence of the people of his constituency and he was a young nobleman belonging to neither political Party. He was a philanthropist who had come over to Ireland to devote his ability (which was of no mean order) and his services to the Congested Districts Board, and he assured his hon. friends from

  1549
  Connaught, from what he knew of Lord Shaftesbury, that there was not a member of the Congested Districts Board who had grappled more thoroughly and successfully with this question of congestion. He had known Lord Shaftesbury for some years, and he only wished that the other Boards in Ireland were as well manned. He had no fault to find, nor had the people whom he represented any fault to find, with the present constitution of the Board. If the Chief Secretary would adopt the suggestion of the hon. and learned Member for Louth and have an Advisory Board like that which existed in the case of the Board of Agriculture or the Technical Instruction Board, then they could bring before the permanent members of the Board their views, and he thought that would go a good distance towards making the Board more popular still. He appealed to the Chief Secretary when he replied to give them some assurance that this suggestion should be given effect to.
  COLONEL SAUNDERSONsaid he thought that all classes in Ireland desired to see the work of the Congested Districts Board extended. The principal objection was not in regard to the personnel of the Board but to the slowness of its work. The reason the work had not gone on faster was that the Board had never had enough money. Now £1,500,000 had been added to its funds, and they might expect the work undertaken would be done with much more celerity. One argument used was that there was nothing of a political or sectarian character in the conduct of the work of the Congested Districts Board. He could not, however, conceive anything more likely to bring that political element in than a proposal to introduce the knights of the shire. He did not wish to say a word against the congested Members of Parliament.
  MR. FLAVIN: Where are the congested Members of Parliament?
  MR. T. M. HEALY: When this Bill is pissed the landlords will be congested with money.
  COLONEL SAUNDERSONsaid what they wanted on the Congested Districts
  1550
  Board were people who were likely to carry on the business with success. He could conceive no reason why a Member of Parliament, if on the Congested Districts Board, should not be endowed with the mental faculties which would qualify him to be a successful member of that Board. He would ask the Committee what would be the position of a Member of Parliament on that Board when dealing with congested districts largely populated with his own constituents. He should not envy him his life. The hon. Member for Louth said that the Board wanted driving power. He ventured to say that any Member of Parliament who sat on that Board and who had a congested district in his constituency would have plenty of driving power. He did not say that the Board might not be reinforced, yet he could conceive no worse way of strenthening the Board, or trying to improve it, than by placing among its members gentlemen who must of necessity be more or less actuated by political motives. Therefore, whatever solution might be found for this subject, he earnestly hoped it would not be the suggestion of the hon. and learned Member for Louth.
  MR. DILLONsaid he thought this debate was an exceedingly important one and represented the great difficulty they had in carrying out any department of administrative work in Ireland. Unless something was done to alter and improve the constitution of the Congested Districts Board and to bring it more in touch with popular feeling, the Bill in that respect would miscarry, and the work would not be done satisfactorily. He would like to say at the very outset that for once in his life he found himself in hearty agreement with the hon. and gallant Member for North Armagh. Although he could understand that the adoption of the suggestion of the hon. and learned Member for North Louth would bring the people of those districts more closely into touch, with the Congested Districts Board, and bring the real sentiment of the poor people more effectively under the notice of the Board than could be done by County Council representation, he thought for his own part—and he spoke

  1551
  as a "congested" Member—it would be intolerable that any member of the Board, which had the distribution of large sums of money, should be at the same time a Member of Parliament. How could a Member of Parliament feel himself free from the suspicion of favouring his own constituency when sitting on the Board which had for its function the distribution of large benefits to the people who sent him to this House? It was for that reason that he objected to Members of Parliament being on the Congested Districts Board. He thought the Board ought to be held apart from Members of Parliament, and therefore, so far as he was concerned, nothing would induce him to sit upon it, although he felt intense interest in its operations. It was essential to take some step to bring the popular wants to the knowledge of the Board. This Board, with all its sins upon its head and all its faults of omission, had undoubtedly done some excellent work for Ireland. Why had it done such good work? Because it was the only Board ever set up in Ireland that was cut adrift from the Castle, and from the constant interference and dictation of the Castle. That at least gave the Board a chance, and although the criticisms levelled against it were fully justified, still he must say that looking over the dreary waste of misgovernment in Ireland, when every Department was engaged in destroying the country, he could not help feeling a sneaking regard for any Department that had done any good at all.
  This Board with all its faults had done an enormous work for the fisheries of Ireland. Formerly there were people living in absolute starvation with the sea full of fish all around them. The Board had done a great work for the unfortunate fishermen, and deserved credit for that. He quite agreed that the work of migration was enormously larger and more important What they had now to address themselves to in connection with this particular Amendment was—What is the organisation of the Board that gives us the best hope of two things which are equally important and absolutely necessary? First of all, they should have a Board in touch with popular feeling, with some machinery
  1552
  by which it could be kept informed of what were the real wants of the people, and which would have applied to it the pressure of popular representation. Secondly, they wanted a Board which would be an efficient administrative instrument. He thought a Board dominated altogether by popular representatives was not one to carry for ward continuous administrative work successfully unless they had some paid members who were efficient administrators on the Board. In order to make the Board an efficient instrument they wanted certainly popular representation of the various districts requiring its care. The only way of getting that was by representatives of the County Councils—representatives, not of the congested districts, but of the counties in which the congested districts were. Consequently they wanted some nominated members. Thirdly, they wanted one or two men, efficient administrators, who were paid for their work. He assured the Committee that one of the difficulties at present was that they had no continuous administration. The main work which would in future have to be done by the Board was an enormous work, and it would require more administrative machinery than was at present possessed. The only man who understood anything about it was Mr. Doran, and he had been engaged almost entirely in the County Mayo for the last two years. There was nobody at headquarters who gave any continuous attention to the work. There was nobody paid to do it. The secretary of the Board was a good man, but he had no power to act on his own initiative. There was absolutely nobody at headquarters who was capable of superintending, or looking after continuously, the work of migration and the re-settlement of the land. What was the result? The Board worked by fits and starts. The Board met once a month, and, as anybody who knew the complicated nature of the work was aware, a purely unpaid body, meeting only once a month, must go slowly. One of the great obstacles of the work of the Board was removed by Clause 65. That was a most valuable clause. The credit and money necessary to carry on the work had been provided, but if they had not got effective machinery the machine

  1553
  would not go. Therefore, he would press upon the Chief Secretary that the time had come to overhaul the machinery and put it in order, so that it might effectively carry on the work which was now to be vastly larger than it had been. If that was not done the Irish representatives would come to the House next year or the year after, pointing out that while Parliament had provided the money, it had not provided the necessary machinery.
  *SIR JOHN COLOMBsaid they had gone away from the Amendment into a general discussion of the administration of the Congested Districts Board. He would ask the hon. Member who moved the Amendment whether he had not succeeded in his purpose in having this discussion. The hon. Member had proposed the election of two members of the County Council, but he did not say how they were to be elected. He suggested that they should now pass on to the discussion of more practical matters.
  MR. TULLYsaid he did not think they had got hold of the right end of the stick when they were confining their criticism to the composition of the Board. The real fault was that the Board had not compulsory powers, and until it had such powers, though composed of a choir of archangels, it could not do the work it was expected to perform. He supposed the hon. Member had advocated Members of Parliament being on the Board for the purpose of silencing criticism. If they wished to get rid of a critic they should always put him on a Committee, and that would shut him up. He urged the Chief Secretary to boldly face the question and go in for compulsion. He would like to see the Board consisting of only three members, namely, the Chief Secretary, Mr. Doran, and the Bishop of Raphoe. He thought that in two years that would go a long way to settle the difficulty with which they were dealing. He did not think the suggestion of his hon. friend the Member for North Monaghan, that two representatives of the County Councils should be placed on the Board, would meet the difficulty.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid it was only natural that hon. Members should wish to express their views on the Congested
  1554
  Districts Board and its work in all its bearings. He felt it was impossible to absolutely focus all the Amendments referring to the congested districts problem because the questions of the constitution of the Board, of finance, and of the work which the Board ought to do, were all so closely interlaced that it was impossible to touch on one without trenching on the other. As to the constitution of the Board, he should like to say what he thought, and how much he thought, of all his colleagues on that Board. He could not, however, single out any of these men, but he would mention the fact that during the years he had had the privilege of working with them they had never once had a division. He might point out that entrusted as they had been with what, to Ireland, were comparatively large sums of money to administer for twelve years, it was to the credit of this Board that no one had accused them of having used these funds for any political or personal purpose. Whatever criticism might be passed on their particular efforts, it was generally recognised that they had worked hard and had done much good. There were inherent difficulties in reconstituting such a Board in a Land Purchase Bill. One speaker suggested that Members of Parliament should be added to the Board, and another representatives of the County Councils; but if they were to bring in an electoral element, which he was not prepared to do, he would be inevitably driven to redefine the scheduled districts, and the scheduled districts had no relation to any division represented by either members of the County Councils or Members of this House. He hoped the Committee would not think he was making a small point in saying that. It went to the root of the matter. If they were going to make this Board elective, then they must alter the areas over which it was to exercise its influence and on which it spent the money with which it was charged. Some hon. Members might reply that they had Amendments on the Paper advocating a new scheduling of the congested districts. Again, he hoped they would not think he was making a small point when he said that to re-schedule the congested districts would necessitate the recasting of all the

  1555
  finances not only of this Bill, but of all preceding Land Bills, and that there was a physical limit to what was possible in the matter of negotiations and arrangements on these questions of finance and local government. A year ago he did proceed upon the basis of attempting to re-schedule the congested districts, but after months of effort along that route he found that the present scheduling of the districts and the financial arrangements that had been built up in these districts, were so rooted and embedded in Acts of Parliament that it would take years before any advance could be made. The financial difficulties of re-scheduling were overwhelming, and would make the Board of quite another character from that which it now bore.
  Then some hon. Members in the speeches which they had made, while they preferred no criticism on the Board of having acted in an unfair way, said that this or that county had not received such attention from the Board as this or that other county. If that were looked at a little more closely it would he found that some Members had been thinking more of land purchase than of relief of congestion or of works. But he could show that in the early years of the Board a great deal of money had been spent on works, say in the county of Kerry. As to works he thought a great deal more might be urged in favour of a representative element on the Board than in respect of land purchase. There was sometimes almost insuperable difficulty in handing out money for a bridge here or a pier there without being responsible to public opinion; and he himself thought that if they were to make the Congested Districts Board truly effective for the purpose of dealing with land purchase in that part of Ireland, which it was most difficult to deal with, then less time and money should be devoted to works. When he was told that the Board had failed in dealing with land purchase, he had two replies. First, that the Board had done nothing because it had exhausted all the credit it had for the particular county in question. And second, when the Board was first constituted under the Act of 1891, its duties were not solely or mainly connected with land purchase. They were dealing with the
  1556
  problem of congestion, which could only be dealt with on the basis of population. The Board very properly took up the question of fishing; and all those who had visited the fishing grounds of Donegal, for instance, would admit that something had been accomplished which was of great, and he hoped and believed, of lasting value. There was another branch of work to which the Board had devoted a great deal of attention—he meant the introduction of artistic hand industries into the West of Ireland, such as the making of carpets and curtains. They knew that in Bavaria and other peasant countries on the Continent, under some paternal encouragement, large trades had been built up which gave, during the winter months, work which commanded a price in the market. The demand for hand-made goods was a growing demand which could only be satisfied from districts in which there was a peasant proprietary who had the artistic instincts which the Irish people possessed in a high degree. He should be sorry to see the Congested Districts Board, acting as they did in co-operation with Messrs. Morris, who were not only leaders of industry but great artists, abandon their efforts to develop these industries in the West of Ireland. But if the fishing, and the development of these hand-made artistic industries, were kept on at too great a cost to the funds of the Congested Districts Board, then the ordinary work of road-making, or building a bridge ox pier here or there, or providing a bull for a certain locality, might be all transferred in the near future to the Agricultural Department, and the balance of the funds of the Congested Districts Board might be devoted to coping with this problem of congestion. But an arrangement of this sort between Departments could not be effected except as the result of long and thoughtful consideration; and although he would have wished to carry this matter further he had not been able to do so.
  They had been considering a great measure of land purchase in Ireland. That had put a great tax on his Department, and if he had concentrated his efforts on the congested problem they would not have got so good a Bill drafted as they had

  1557
  now got. He admitted that the congested portions of the Bill had suffered at the expense of the main provisions of the Bill, and it was physically impossible, in the month of July, to co-relate the different finance and staff arrangements of the Congested Districts Board in the direction he had indicated. But when this Bill became an Act, and when they had the greater facilities and the greater working capital which had been so long needed, their interest in the work of laud purchase, to deal with congestion, would be so great that they would only be too glad to put on the shoulders of others work which they were better able to deal with than they themselves were. The point of all he had said was that it was not possible for a Minister in charge of a Bill of this magnitude to elaborate every part of it in order to meet the wishes of hon. Members, however reasonable they might be; and having achieved what all his colleagues on the Board had long desired—viz., the power of buying land when it came into the market, and of applying working capital to that land in order to cure congestion, all he asked was that they should be allowed during the autumn and winter to take up those facilities and turn them to the best account. After all, the members of the Board were the repositories of some experience; and he thought it would be unwise on the part of the Committee to advocate a great constitutional change at this moment, and to bring in persons with whom the Board had not previously worked. He put it to the Committee that the Board, as at present constituted, had better be left alone until it could be seen what they could do with their new resources. He thought the Board would be very much strengthened in respect of land purchase, and that its operations would fit in more harmoniously with the whole of the land purchase scheme, if he were allowed to make the Under Secretary a permanent member of the Board. He would explain why. Their plan for dealing with the problem of congestion was scattered all through this Bill. He had given some reasons which guided them in not defining particular areas to be treated as congested. One was that it would need the recasting of all the financial proposals of this Bill; the other was that congestion was scattered, on a much smaller
  1558
  scale, but still scattered sporadically over the whole of Ireland. They might deal with it by scheduling all those districts; but if they did that it would mean postponing the Bill for two or three years until a roaming Commission had discovered where congestion existed and needed special legislative treatment. Or they might say that the Congested Districts Board should deal with it wherever it arose; but they felt that the officers of the Board, although they might be able to work well in congested districts in the West, might, if sent further afield, not be able to work as effectually. Therefore, they had given the Estates Commissioners similar powers to the powers enjoyed by the Board for dealing with congestion; and the Commissioners would be allowed to exercise those powers all over Ireland. The Congested Districts Board would still retain those powers and exercise the larger facilities which had been given to the Board in congested districts.
  Several hon. Members had stated that just outside the limit of a scheduled district there was untenanted land which might be bought for the relief of the congestion in the scheduled district. That was provided for in this Bill. Nearly £1,250,000 could be used for buying land anywhere in order to meet congestion in a scheduled district. In this Bill he had also extended a useful provision, as he had known it to be, contained in the Congested Districts Act of 1901, namely, that where untenanted land was bought outside a congested district for the benefit of that congested district, they should be able to use some part of that land to assist the neighbouring fringe of persons, who, perhaps, would be as miserably situated as the inhabitants of the congested district itself That way the principle which governed the whole of Clause 2, which was received with general assent. Both the Estates Commissioners and the Board would be able to buy untenanted land to relieve congestion, and, at the same time, to relieve congestion of a mitigated character in the immediate neighbourhood of a congested district. That was a necessary provision. If it were not introduced jealousy would be created; but, apart from that, they would be forced to

  1559
  undertake expensive works in the way of accommodation roads for the benefit of the new occupiers. If, however, they could make the whole transaction one, it would be for the general enjoyment and advantage of all. If that were so, and it was so under the Bill, why, in prosecuting their work in the matter of land purchase and the improvement of estates, should the Congested Districts Board be of a different character from that of the Estates Commissioners? No one had suggested during the whole of these debates that the Estates Commissioners ought to have the aid of representative members. Even if it were suggested it was a suggestion which no Government could entertain. The use of public credit and the expenditure of public funds was a matter which must be left to a public body in which the Exchequer had confidence, not political or personal confidence, but in the administration of public funds. This House criticised expenditure; but even in this Assembly, the freeest in the world, no Member was allowed to put down a Motion involving the expenditure of one shilling of public money. Of course, the House of Commons might criticise public expenditure; but he did not think that the proposal to add to the Board representatives who would be urging the Board to spend money here or there, and on this or that project, could be incorporated in the Bill. The Congested Districts Board was like the Estates Commissioners, an administrative body which was to spend public money to cure the evil of congestion and to press on land purchase in the West of Ireland. Let them be called to account in this House if they neglected to show sufficient expedition, or if they were guilty of wasting public money. He did not know whether he need elaborate the matter further. The question of the constitution of the Board could not, he submitted, be profitably discussed at greater length; nor could any change be introduced into the Bill with reference to it at that period of the session. Having got the facilities they needed, let the Board use them, and let not the Committee ask an administrative body to work with a number of elected representatives, when that body were responsible to this House and the
  1560
  Treasury for the proper administration of the funds placed at their disposal.
  MR. GILHOOLYsaid he wished to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to the neglect of the fishing industry in his constituency by the Congested Districts Board.
  *THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Gentleman must speak to the particular Amendment before the Committee.
  MR. GILHOOLYsaid that was his intention. When Lord Shaftesbury was appointed a member of the Congested Districts Board, some of the representatives of Cork and Kerry pointed out that the South of Ireland was entitled to representation on the Board. Since the death of the late lamented Father Davis, who represented Munster on the Board, very little had been done for the fishing industry, and they considered that as there was now a vacancy on the Board the right hon. Gentleman ought to consider the appointment of a representative for Munster. He had sent the right hon. Gentleman a few days ago some communications with reference to the neglect of the fishing industry at Castletown, Berehaven, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would take them into his consideration. So much had been done for Donegal and the Arran Islands that the South of Ireland now wanted a representative to develop the fishing industry in the most important districts of Castle-town, Berehaven, Schull, and Baltimore. It was very unfair that the South of Ireland was not represented on the Board, whereas Leinster, Connaught, and Ulster bad representatives. They, in the South of Ireland, did not grudge what had been done in the West and North; but he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would, in future, pay some attention to the important fishing industry in the South.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid he would suggest that the debate should not be carried further owing to the limited time at their disposal, although the occasion was worthy of a longer discussion than they could have, owing to other interests

  1561
  concerned. He desired to associate himself with what had been said by the hon. Member for West Cork as to the necessity of Munster being represented on the Congested Districts Board. There was now a vacancy on the Board, and he did not see why a representative of Munster should not be appointed to fill it.
  DR. THOMPSONsaid although he was not convinced by the arguments of the Chief Secretary that this was not a very advantageous proposal, still he did not wish to delay the progress of the Bill; and he would, therefore, ask leave to withdraw his Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 65 agreed to.
  Clause 66 agreed to.
  Clause 67:—
  DR. AMBROSEsaid if the present Chief Secretary were allowed to remain in Ireland there would be scarcely any necessity to propose the Amendment he now moved, but, unfortunately, no sooner had a Chief Secretary taken up his residence in Ireland than some apple of discord was thrown across his path, and he bade adieu to Erin and they had to teach his successor the first principles of the Irish question. In the county of Mayo, half the occupiers were rated at under £4 valuation. It was not because there was no land in the county. There was plenty of land if it were only purchased. In the Westport and Castlebar Unions there were many thousands of acres let to graziers, on eleven months tenancies, who only kept a herd and a dog upon them, and if that land were split up in tidy-sized farms and added to the holdings of the inhabitants of the congested districts, some use would be made of it. The only avenue of hope to those people was emigration, but if this Amendment were adopted it would go far to remedy the evils of the congested districts of Ireland. He begged to move.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 33, line 5, at end, to add the words, 'All untenanted lands which become vested in the Board shall be offered by them for sale
  1562
  within two years after they shall have become so vested in parcels to tenants or proprietors of holdings not exceeding ten acres in area and £5 in rateable value each, on estates adjacent to, or in the neighbourhood of the said lands, or in case there shall be no such tenants or proprietors, then to any persons to whom the Board may lawfully sell land under the provisions of the Congested Districts Board (Ireland) Acts.'"—(Dr. Ambrose.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there added."
  MR. T. M. HEALYpointed out that there was a precedent for this Amendment under the Land Clauses Act by which, where a railway acquired land and could not use the whole, they were bound to put the balance up for sale at auction within twelve months.
  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. ATKINSON,)said the objection to this Amendment was that it was hardly relevant to the clause it proposed to amend. Clause 67 put a limit on the untenanted land which the Congested Districts Board might have in its possession at any particular time. The object was to prevent it having more laud than it could pay the purchase money on at one time. He did not think if the hon. Member considered the matter fully he would find that the interests of all parties concerned were bettered by the Amendment. They would be better dealt with by leaving a certain elasticity in this clause.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 67 agreed to.
  Clause 68:—
  MR. TULLYsaid he would formally move in Clause 68, page 33, line 8, after "thereof," insert "and any buildings thereon," to elicit some explanation as to what was included in the "parcels of land." If the buildings on the land were included in the "parcel" and the levy of fines on tenants were to be done away with he would not move it.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 33, line 8, after the word 'thereof' to insert the words 'and any buildings thereon.'"—(Mr. Tully.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid the buildings on the land would be included and the fines were already done away with.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. TULLYsaid the intention of the Amendment he now proposed to move was to get rid of the restrictions placed on the Congested Districts Board. His idea was that they should be done away with because he found from the eleventh Report of the Congested Districts Board the migration was hindered by them in a way that never could have been anticipated. He thought there should be some compulsory powers to migrate the holders of large farms so that their holdings could be divided up amongst the small holders. His proposal was to leave out all these restrictions as to the number of acres and area, and that £20 should be the limit. A man whose rateable value was £20 might be migrated to another district. He noticed that since last night the right hon. Gentleman had put a new clause down. Did the clause mean that the right hon. Gentleman was going to take powers to migrate the class to which he referred.
  He begged to move.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 33, line 10, to leave out the word 'ten,' and insert the word 'twenty.'"—(Mr. Tully.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'ten' stand part of the clause."
  MR. DILLONsaid perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would allow him to move his Amendment before he replied so that he might deal with both at the same time. He proposed to leave out acres and area altogether and raise the £5 limit to £10. He begged to move.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 33, line 10, to leave out the words 'acres in area and five.'"—(Mr. Dillon.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
  MR. WYNDHAM, replying to both Amendments, said the hon. Gentleman
  1564
  who moved the first Amendment misconceived the purport of the section. The section did not deal with the migrants but the persons who lived in the neighbourhood of the persons who had migrated. The proper course in respect to both Amendments would be—not to go the whole length, but in line 10 to leave out the words ten acres in area and leave in the monetary limit.
  COLONEL NOLANasked whether the word proprietors in this clause and, in fact, all through the Bill, meant proprietors under the former Purchase Acts.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Yes.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid he had no objection to the Amendments, but he wished to know what these poor people had done to suffer expropriation from the county in which they were born.
  Amendments, by leave, withdrawn.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 33, line 10, to leave out the words 'ten acres in area.'"—(Mr. Wyndham.)
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. DILLONmoved to insert "or to any sons of such tenants." He said there were many cases in which the Board, if it had this discretion, would be glad to avail themselves of it. He had in mind cases of men who came over to England for nine months in the year, leaving their families at home, and who would undoubtedly have to emigrate altogether if they had no chance of getting holdings in the neighbourhood. Many of these men were of just that enterprising class which it was desirable to retain in the country. All he desired was that if the land was there and to spare the Board should be able to let the son of a tenant have it.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 33, line 12, after the word 'land' to insert the words or to any sons of such tenants."—(Mr. Dillon.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid he would be sorry to oppose any proposal of the hon. Member, and he did not oppose this on

  1565
  its merits, but he wished to point out its bearing on the remarkable Amendment of the Chief Secretary. The proposal was that a farm, for which, perhaps, the man had paid a high price, should be taken away and given to the son of another tenant in the district. The insertion of these words would enable that to be done. He had never heard of such a proposition and he failed to see why one man should be injured for the benefit of another unless good reason were shown for it.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  MR. O'MALLEYsaid he had intended severely to criticise the action of the Congested Districts Board in his constituency during the last ten or twelve years, but the speech of the right hon. Gentleman had disarmed criticism, and his apology rendered further remarks on that point unnecessary. Moreover, as the right hon. Gentleman had promised to do away with the system of imposing fines on migratory tenants to extend the operation of the migratory scheme under the Bill, it was unnecessary to do more than formally move the Amendment on the Paper—
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 33, line 15, at end, to add the words'(3) When the Congested Districts Board, in exercise of any power vested in them under Section 44 of the Act of 1896, or otherwise, sell any parcels of land to tenants of small holdings or others, the cost of any improvements other than the cost of the building or rebuilding of houses carried out by the Board upon any such parcel of land previous to such sale shall not be included in the estimate of the price to be paid for the same, and shall not be payable by the purchaser thereof, nor shall any money be payable by way of fine by any such purchaser to the Board upon such sale. (4) The Congested Districts Board shall each year, out of the income provided for them by the Congested Districts Board (Ireland) Acts, set apart the sum of £40,000 for the purposes of migration and settlement, as mentioned in Section 37 and Section 39, Sub-secton 1 (a), of the Act of 1891, and for the enlargement of small holdings under the powers conferred upon them by Section 44 of the Act of 1896 and this section in such proportions as they may determine. And in case the sum of £20,000 a year referred to in Section 35 of this Act is paid to the Board such sum shall be applied by them to the like purposes only.'"—(Mr. O'Malley.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there added."
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid the Amendment would place too rigid a restraint on the action of the Board. Until the scheme of discrimination between the Congested Districts Board and the new Department had been arrived at, he could not agree to an Amendment laying down the amount that was to be expended on any given purpose.
  MR. WILLIAM O'BRIENsuggested that, as the two points covered by the Amendment had been substantially met by promises of the right hon. Gentleman the Amendment should be withdrawn.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  *MR. JOHN O'DONNELLsaid he desired to move the Amendment he had placed on the Paper, because he felt that the Bill was unsatisfactory in the respect there referred to. The only remedy for the existing state of things was to provide land for those who had an insufficient quantity on which to bring up their families. Congestion and its consequences constituted a serious social problem, which could not be overlooked or lightly passed over, as it affected the well-being of all classes of the community. Members representing all shades of political thought had expressed a desire to support the Bill, with the hope that it would put an end to the agrarian trouble in Ireland, but he would like to see practical effect given to that sympathy by sufficient land being provided for the people in the western counties on which they could live without the necessity of migrating or emigrating. The Chief Secretary was cognisant of the evil caused by the consolidation of farms during the last fifty years, and he would do well to take the advice of the representatives of the people on this point, as he had an opportunity which should not lightly be thrown away. Let the finishing touch be given to the policy of conciliation by giving the people the right to live on the land and putting an end to the system of grazing. Concessions had been made affecting the well-being of classes infinitely better off than the people for whom he was pleading, and he appealed to the right

  1567
  hon. Gentleman to deal with this matter once for all by enabling the people of the West to live in their own country. Unless the holdings were extended there could be no comfort or prosperity for the people, and a good deal of good, which would otherwise come by the passing of this Bill, would be lost. In various parts of the country there was more than sufficient land. His hon. friend the Member for West Mayo had given an illustration of the condition of things in the Westport Union, and the same might be said of other unions. There was one union where 44,000 people were living upon holdings at a less valuation than 18s. 4d. each, and 7,000 were under £8. It was little wonder that these should be described as slum holdings by the right hon. Gentleman. He was afraid that a number of graziers would come in for the benefits of this Act.
  His hon. friend the Member for North Mayo had told the Committee that on one estate there were twenty-five small holders huddled together on the bog land which they had tilled and reclaimed, whilst on the other side of the road was the good land from which they had been driven, and which was held by three graziers, one of whom had thirteen large grazing farms, whilst his brother had six. The Land Commission advanced £2,739 to one of these graziers, to the second £2,241, and to the third £1,952, making a total of £6,922 which was given to these graziers. The poor tenants he had alluded to got considerably less than £4,000 between twenty-five of them. The conduct of the Land Commission in advancing so much money to these graziers was monstrous, and a continuation of that policy would not produce either peace or goodwill in Ireland. If the right hon. Gentleman meant to settle this question, let him give an assurance that the poor cottier farmers of the west of Ireland would not be forgotten, and that the graziers, who had been a curse to the land, would be rooted out once and for all. If advances were made to these graziers what would become of the poor people who had been living on the fringes of those ranches? These poor people had been looking over the walls around these ranches with longing eyes, hoping for the day to come when they might inherit the land from which their fathers had been driven. Immediately
  1568
  the rumours of this Land Bill reached Ireland, these graziers, who never before either built a house or made a drain upon their land, began to do so. He hoped the Chief Secretary would give them some assurance that these gentlemen would not be able to get large advances from the Estates Commission, for by that course a good many poor tenants would be kept from obtaining possession of those lands. Within the past seven or eight years he had found it his duty to speak very strongly in regard to the action of these gentlemen. He had frequently spoken very hardly about graziers for taking these ranches; about landlords for letting them, and about the Government for allowing such a scandalous state of things to exist, and, if the occasion should arise again, he might have to repeat those utterances, no matter what the consequences might be. He did not say this to hold out any threats, but simply to convey to the Committee the earnest desire of the people to have the land and to show that there could be neither peace, nor contentment, nor prosperity in Ireland until these grazing lands were divided up into small holdings. He wanted an assurance from the Chief Secretary that no advance would be given to any man on an agricultural holding who held fifty acres outside that holding, or where the tenant did not reside upon the holding or within one mile thereof.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 33, line 15, at end, to insert the words—'(5) No advance shall be made under any of the Land Purchase Acts for the purchase of a holding situated within a congested districts county in any of the following cases—(a) Where the tenant does not reside upon the holding or within one mile thereof; (b) Where the holding comprises pasture land more than 50 acres in extent, which in the opinion of the Congested Districts Board is suitable for the enlargement of existing holdings or for any of the purposes mentioned in Sub-section 1 (a) of Section 39 of the Act of 1891.'"—(Mr. John O'Donnell.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid the administration of the Act in Ireland would not be successful unless it carried with it

  1569
  the assent of all classes of public opinion in Ireland. He was convinced that they would not only prejudice the chances of this Bill now, but the chances of its fair operation in Ireland if they took away absolutely from certain persons privileges which they now enjoyed. It might be held by some that they had already limited the rights to which persons in Ireland might legitimately aspire. But it would, in his opinion, be a fundamental mistake, and would militate against the object which the hon. Member had at heart, if they were to place in the Bill an invidious and exclusive enactment against a particular set of men in Ireland, and a set of men who were necessary to the prosperity of Ireland. He thought those who had listened to his speeches upon this question would admit that he had shown that he was fully sensible of the evil of congestion, and most desirous to mitigate that evil; but to legislate against graziers as a class would be an act of economic insanity. To whom were the smallholders to sell their calves if they did away with the graziers?
  *MR. KILBRIDE: To the exporters who supply the English market.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he was surprised if the hon. Member was in favour of withdrawing from a whole class of farmers any advantages under this Bill—(NATIONALIST cries of, "In congested districts only")—which they now enjoyed under earlier legislation. It took all sorts to make a world; and graziers would have just cause of complaint if these privileges were withdrawn, and many would take up cudgels on their behalf. It would be altogether a departure from the spirit which had animated the authors of the Bill, and from the spirit of the Land Conference, to say that a certain class should get none of the advantages. Moreover, under the Bill a grazier could only obtain one advance for the purchase of a grazing tract. Many of those persons were not so much farmers as men of business buying and selling cattle. To say that a man who might now pay up to £5,000 was by this Act to be deprived of the right of doing it would
  1570
  be, he was convinced, a great error of judgment, and he must resist any such proposal. He did not know whether the hon. Gentleman had considered the way in which the various provisions of this Bill hung together. There were now the Congested Districts Board and the Estates Commissioners. But the Congested Districts Board would not go out of its way to buy a property for the mere purpose of reselling it to large graziers or farmers. That was not their province under the Bill. Their duty under the Bill was to deal with parts of the West of Ireland which required improvement. He would ask the Committee to consider the bearing of Clause 85 on the whole of this question. The Estates Commissioners would not consider a mere fringe of congestion and sanction the sale of that unless they did what the Bill put it in their power to do, namely, acquire other land in order to remedy that state of congestion. Nor would they sell a single large farm without regard to circumstances of congestion in its neighbourhood. There would be a good deal of elasticity and administrative resource under this Bill taken as a whole, and as the object of the Government was not, and never had been, to give large additional grants on public credit in order to enable people to buy property which they could buy for themselves, the hon. Member need have no alarm that the action of the Commissioners and of the Congested Districts Board would be to give large advances to those described as graziers. The graziers would enjoy their existing rights under the Bill. These were rights which ought not to be taken away by the Bill. If property was bought by the Congested Districts Board it was bought for the purpose of curing the evils of congestion. He thought that under this Bill the Congested Districts Board should have all the powers of landlords to deal with that property for certain objects. What were those objects? To cure on that property the evils of congestion, and turn those who were the debtors of the State into persons who had property which would support them for the next sixty-eight and a half years and enable them to pay the instalments. The Congested Districts Board would be abusing a public trust if they were to sell off the worst holdings without regard to being able to enlarge them, or if they were indiscriminately to sell

  1571
  all the untenanted land in the neighbourhood without regard to the fact that there was an amount of congestion there to be relieved. He thought the hon. Member would see that his fears were somewhat visionary. To introduce an arbitrary code against one class, and one class only, in Ireland would be altogether out of harmony with their proceedings, and the champions of that class would have something to say on the subject which would imperil the passing of the Bill At any rate, it was a policy which he could not accept.
  *MR. KILBRIDEsaid he acknowledged the attitude of the right hon. Gentleman when he extended the limit from £5,000 to £7,000. In doing so, he undoubtedly met his hon. friend the Member for North Kildare in a most generous way. He begged to assure the right hon. Gentleman that the farmers of County Kildare, who were mostly interested in this particular matter, would be mindful of him for what he had done. He wished to point out that the case brought forward by his hon. friend the Member for South Mayo did not come within the purview of this Act at all. The hon. Member was afraid, and he thought he was legitimately entitled to be afraid, that where there was congestion in the immediate proximity of a large farm, the tenant would not make use of this Bill at all, but that under the law which at present existed he would make a direct bargain with the landlord under the Land Purchase Acts, even in a congested district. If he was wrong, he hoped the Attorney-General would correct him. Under the law as it existed a bargain could be taken completely away from the purview of the Estates Commissioners, and the Congested Districts Board. The land could be bought direct from the landlord for a great number of years purchase, and the landlord would get a bonus.
  MR. ATKINSON: No.
  *MR. KILBRIDEsaid he was very glad to hear that. In such a case the landlord would get no bonus. This was not an attack upon the graziers of County Meath, or of the provinces of
  1572
  Leinster or Connaught; it was simply a proposal to safeguard in the interest of the congested districts all available land which was not necessary to the present occupying tenant for the purpose of making a living. He knew a case in the constituency of his hon. friend the Member for East Galway where a man who had made his money out of the halfpence and pence of the people living in a congested area, by keeping a wayside shop, and who, though originally he did not occupy ten acres of land himself, was now a grazier holding 5,000 acres of land. [An HON. MEMBER: His name is Rattray.] He was sure the Chief Secretary must be acquainted with this case. He assured the right hon. Gentleman that he had qualifications to deal with this question which no other man occupying the position of Chief Secretary ever had. He could tell the right hon. Gentleman in the frankest way that he would be met by the people not only of the West of Ireland, but of Kildare, in a way that no other man in the position of Chief Secretary ever was met before. They talked about sentimental reasons. Sentiment went a long way in Ireland. The right hon. Gentleman had the advantage of having the sentiment of the Irish people with him in a way in which no other man ever had before. He was quite sure that the right hon. Gentleman would take advantage of his opportunities and that he would do everything in his power as a member of the Congested Districts Board to see that the land which remained available for the enlargement of holdings and for the accommodation of people migrating would be used for those purposes.
  MR. JOHN O'DONNELLsaid that in view of the assurance he had received on the question from the right hon. Gentleman he did not desire to press the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 68, as amended, agreed to.
  Clauses 69, 70 and 71 agreed to.
  Clause 72.
  *MR. O'KELLYmoved an Amendment dealing with the question of

  1573
  providing land for the people in the congested districts. He hoped the Chief Secretary would accept the Amendment as it did not go so far as the Congested Districts Board suggested in their fourth Annual Report. The Report had often been quoted before in the House, but he would quote it again in connection with this Amendment as he believed it was fairly apt. The hon. Member read the passage in the Report which stated that the Board were in possession of information from their inspectors that there were large tracts of grazing land which could be used to enlarge the holdings of small occupiers, but that the Board were of opinion it would be impossible for them to give effect to this important part of the work unless more funds were placed at their disposal and compulsory powers conferred upon them to acquire the land. He thought it was only reasonable that the powers of the Board to acquire land should be increased now that their credit was to be increased. Sooner or later compulsion must be recognised, so far as the congested districts were concerned, if the work of the Board was to be really satisfactory. He was content at the present time to ask Parliament to sanction pre-emption, which would not hurt the landlord because it would not compel him to sell if he did not want to sell, and would secure that whenever land was available in a congested district, the Congested Districts Board would have the opportunity of purchasing that land in order to carry out the object of the Board—viz., the relief of congestion. It would also prevent speculative transactions in land to the detriment of the poor people, because many graziers purchased land in the hope of re-selling it to the Board at an enhanced price. Take the case of the estate of Bone, situated in the very heart of the congested district of his own county. There were no fewer than 173 holdings there under £8 valuation; and everyone admitted that any holding under £8 was below the subsistence point for a family. On that estate there were 700 acres of grazing land which had fallen into the hands of three individual graziers, while the Congested Districts Board had to stand by without power to prevent it. Had the Congested Districts Board had the power of pre-emption, that would not have occurred. He would remind the right
  1574
  hon. Gentleman that when the Congested Districts Board was first formed, ten and a half years ago, there were 429 electoral divisions defined as congested divisions, and of these only 118 had been affected by the operations of the Board. He had in his mind several large grazing farms in Mayo which might be availed of by the Congested Districts Board for relieving congestion by settling the people on the land, but which, for want of the right of pre-emption, would pass into the hands of individual graziers. If the right hon. Gentleman did not accept his Amendment now, it was certain that, in a very short time, he would have himself to come down to the House and ask Parliament to consent either to pre-emption or compulsion. He begged to move—
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 34, line 11, at end, to insert the words, '(2) Where any agricultural or pastoral land is for sale in a congested districts county, and the vendor is a person who may be dealt with as the owner of the land in accordance with the provisions of Part 1 of this Act or otherwise, the Congested Districts Board shall be entitled to a right of pre-emption of said land. No person shall sell any such land to any person or persons other than the said Board, or enter into any agreement for the sale thereof without first serving within the prescribed time, and in the manner prescribed upon the said Board notice of his intention to do so. On receiving such notice the said Board shall, in case they determine to purchase the said lands for all or any of the purposes of the Congested Districts Board (Ireland) Acts, serve upon the vendor thereof within the prescribed time and in the prescribed manner a notice of their intention to purchase the same. The said Board thereupon shall be entitled to purchase the said land for such sum as may be agreed upon, or, in the event of disagreement, may be ascertained by the Land Commission Court to be the true value thereof, and the sale shall, thereupon, be completed in the same manner in all respects as if it were a purchase by agreement by the said Board within the provisions of Section 72 of this Act. For the purposes of this sub-section, the true value of said land shall be ascertained by the Land Commission in the same manner as if it were a tenancy being sold to the landlord under the provisions of the Act of 1881, subject to such variations as the Land Commission may by rules direct. If the vendor fails to give the said Board the aforesaid notice of his intention to sell and proceed with the sale of the land to any other person or persons, the Land Commission may, if they think fit, upon application made to them within the prescribed time and in the prescribed manner, by the said Board, or by the County Council of the county in which the land is situate, declare the sale to be void

  1575
  In case the said Board, having received the notice of the vendor's intention to sell, shall fail to serve the said notice of their intention to buy, then they shall be deemed to have waived all right of pre-emption under this section, and the vendor shall thereupon be entitled to sell the land as if this section had not passed.'"—(Mr. O'Kelly.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  MR. DILLONsaid that he had an Amendment on the Paper practically on the same question as that raised by the Amendment of the hon. Member for North Mayo, but if the right hon. Gentleman saw his way to accept the latter, he would not find it necessary to move his. Their object was to secure that the grass lands necessary for the relief of congestion in the West of Ireland should not pass into the hands of proprietors who would hold them against the people for ever. Since the Congested Districts Board was founded in 1891 there had been seven amending Acts, and they had not yet reached the possession of perfect machinery; and he warned the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary that if he allowed this portion of the Bill to pass without accepting any of the Amendments of the Irish Party, he would require another amending Act in the immediate future, and that further agitation would arise in the West of Ireland. The right hon. Gentleman in his speech did not attempt to deal with the ordinary way in which the landlord sold these grazing lands directly to the tenants. He knew of cases where the graziers, being afraid of any interference by the Congested Districts Board with the estate on which their farms were situated, induced other graziers to join with them in buying directly from the landlord; but even supposing the other smaller grazing tenants refused to join, there was nothing to prevent the larger tenants buying direct. The only punishment which the Estates Commissioners or the Congested Districts Board could give in such circumstances would be to punish the poorer men for what the richer men had done in buying up the estate. He maintained that the discretion in the clause as it stood was no protection to the smaller tenants at all. He had listened to the right hon. Gentleman
  1576
  during the afternoon with ever-increasing admiration; he had never heard the Chief Secretary in such form; each succeeding speech was more eloquent than the preceding, and it was a perfect treat to listen to him. But the right hon. Gentleman was never more eloquent than when he did not mean to give the Irish Members any concession; and now, at the end of a not too long prolonged debate on this most important subject, there was nothing to show for their work except the modest Amendment accepted in regard to the sons of tenants. This was a very serious state of affairs; and he would read the unanimous resolution of the Bishops of Connaught on this subject, passed immediately after the Bill was introduced, in order to impress on the Government the importance of this Amendment. He might say that the Bishops of Connaught were an extremely moderate body of men; and he did not think that anybody could complain that these Bishops had ever been inciters of violent agitation or of violence in any way, or that they had shown themselves to be unreasonable or extreme politicians. The Bishops, who were all present, said that whilst recognising the immense value of the Land Bill now before Parliament, and earnestly hoping that it would soon become law, that they desired to record their fears that the proposals dealing with congestion were quite inadequate. Larger and more extensive powers should be conferred on the Congested Districts Board similar to the powers granted in Scotland, and above all no landlord should be able to purchase land except with the view of making it residential, and even under that condition not to a greater extent than £1,000. They were of opinion that the land question would not be settled in Western Ireland, nor would peace and contentment be restored until the grazing land taken from the people in the past was given back to those who were able and willing to work upon it for the support of themselves and their families. As the outcome of this discussion they had been able to obtain only the smallest modification in the provisions of this Act which were unanimously condemned by Bishops.
  What was the difficulty which prevented the right hon. Gentleman from making some concession on his part? Previously

  1577
  there were great landlord interests of stake, but they had not heard the voice at a single landlord raised against these proposals. The British taxpayer had also disappeared. He had no interest in the discussion. On the contrary, he would be in a much more secure position if their proposals were accepted, because these poor tenants must become the debtors of the British taxpayer, and it was enormously to the latter's interest that the tenants should have such holdings as would make them solvent. These proposals would not add one penny to the burden which would be placed on the British taxpayer. What was the trouble in this matter? It seemed to him deplorable that in a great settlement of the land question, to a large extent they were going to leave out the most acute part of the question and the main source of agitation in the past. The right hon. Gentleman had made an appeal to them, and had said that the complications were so great that he could not be expected to deal with the reconstruction of the Congested Districts Board. That, however, ought to have been the first question to receive attention, and from the points of view both of urgency and merit that was really a question which ought to have occupied his attention before any other. He had admitted that in his negotiations with the Treasury and the Chancellor of the Exchequer he had obtained the promise for the Bill to be agreed to on the ground of pressing urgency because of the desperate condition of the people in the West of Ireland. That being so, why should these people be left out? and why should not this Bill be drawn so as to give reasonable ground for hoping that the case of the Western peasants would receive proper attention? Throughout this long debate they had had no solitary reason, from beginning to end, why their proposals should be rejected. This principle of compulsion had been sanctioned by the Prime Minister with regard to the West of Ireland. That right hon. Gentleman signed a report as a member of the Congested Districts Board by which report, compulsion, as a principle, was applied in Ireland freely and most urgently in connection with these land sales. The owners of head-rents, which property was more valuable than Government
  1578
  stock, and as valuable as any gilt-edged security, had to accept twenty-four years purchase, and yet they were told there was no kind of compulsion. It appeared to him that the Government had acted most arbitrarily. They had, in the present land legislation, given a most unjust right of pre-emption to the landlord, who could compel the tenant to sell his holding at two-thirds, or even one-half, of its value, and yet when they asked that a man should be compelled to sell his land at its full market value the Government refused to discuss the matter. That was an unreasonable attitude to assume, and no amount of eloquence on the part of the Chief Secretary would reconcile them to it. He warned the right hon. Gentleman that without this compulsion the Bill would not prove a success. He was perfectly aware that these clauses would do a great deal, and were an improvement on the law as it now stood. But more was the pity that the right hon. Gentleman would not complete the work. He could not blame them if they were obliged to go to their own districts and point out to the people that having got so much, and only so much, by agitation, they must continue to agitate in order to get the rest.
  MR. WYNDHAMthought the Bill would prove adequate if it had a fair trial, but he was afraid that this part, or any other part of it, would not get a fair trial in Ireland if they introduced the principle of compulsion. He desired to act by means of inducement and goodwill, and by appealing to all classes in Ireland to try and make a lasting job of the Bill. They had not had the money to buy those estates, and that was why they were not bought. Now they had the money they were told they would be beaten in the open market, but he could not see how that could be when they had a double bonus. He did not think they could be beaten in the open market, nor by isolated purchasers, in whose case there was no bonus against the double bonus. When the State was conferring fresh lights and creating credit facilities it meant to have a say in the conduct of a policy intended to level up the bad part of the country

  1579
  and to cure congestion. His opinion was that the policy would meet with success. He did not see how compulsion applied to the landlords would help at all. It would rather have the effect of spoiling the reception of the Bill in Ireland, and he could not give way on the point which had been urged.
  MR. TOMKINSONexplained that his intervention in the debate was due to the deep interest he had taken in this question. It seemed to him that anyone who had studied Irish questions must see that round the congested districts circled the whole question of the well-being of the Irish people. In spite of the fact that the population of Ireland was quite inadequate to the resources of the country, in the West there was a large mass of population in the direst poverty, and for that state of things a remedy must be found. If that remedy could not be found without compulsion then he felt very strongly that individual interests must give way to public interests. It would be unfortunate if it should not be possible to effect what they had in view without expropriation, but when one considered the enormous benefits that could be conferred upon a great number by a possible hardship inflicted on a few, then the public interest demanded that no individual interest should stand in the way. He knew how deeply sympathetic the right hon. Gentleman was in this matter, and how much he had the success of this measure at heart. If the right hon. Gentleman believed that without the principle of compulsion he could arrive at the result they all desired, then there was no reason to impress upon him the many considerations that had been urged in favour of compulsion. But he could not help feeling that compulsion would be a good weapon to fall back upon if the right hon. Gentleman did not succeed.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELLsaid the question of the congested districts was really the Irish land question in its most intense form. He had learned with astonishment from the Chief Secretary's speech that to create the right of pre-emption was the same thing as compulsion. Compulsion was applied to
  1580
  an unwilling seller; the right of preemption involved the willingness of a man to sell with the State stepping in to say that in order to carry out a great national policy it should have the first right to buy. The Chief Secretary in dealing with the grazing lands said that the landlord would not sell to the graziers because he got no bonus. But the grazier could give more money for his land than the poor tenantry, and the landlord would drive a bargain with the grazier. It was a moderate request to say that the Congested Districts Board, acting in the name of the State, should at least have the right of preemption in order to carry out the policy which it was founded to promote. He believed this was a vital question. Recognising the battles the Chief Secretary had fought to secure the provisions already in the Bill, he would not impede him with his work, but the right hon. Gentleman, if he remained in Ireland, would find that he would have to give either pre-emption or compulsion before this cancer could be removed.
  COLONEL NOLANsaid the Chief Secretary was in sympathy with the object Irish Members had in view, and no doubt, if he had to administer the Act would succeed in enlarging most of the holdings. But the right hon. Gentleman might not remain in Ireland, and if his successor proved to be of a frugal or easy-going disposition the claims of the small men might not be pressed on the Treasury. The Bill was very elastic, and a great deal would depend upon the manner in which it was administered. There were two classes of graziers in Ireland. In the case of those who took the land on the eleven months system the owner had to be dealt with. But there were also those who took the land altogether, and he hoped the Chief Secretary would be able in some way to see that a good deal of their land passed into the hands of the small people. If the hon. Member for East Mayo went to a division he would support him, as he thought the provision ought to be extended, not only to the congested districts, but also, through the Estates Commissioners, to other districts that were not congested. He hoped the Chief Secretary on the Report stage would be

  1581
  able to explain the bonus, and show that the Bill was calculated to achieve one of the two objects they had at heart—viz., to make the great bulk of the tenants I owners of the soil, and to extend small holdings.
  MR. ATKINSONsaid the hon. Member for South Tyrone had referred to preemption and compulsion in the abstract. The pre-emption referred to in the Amendment was to buy, not at the price at which the vendor desired to sell, but at the price fixed by the Commissioners.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELLsaid that that was what took place in ordinary cases of pre-emption in Ulster now.
  MR. FLYNNsaid that eight years ago the Congested Districts Board passed a Resolution stating that without compulsion it would be imposble to carry on the work of the Board, and he could not understand the obstinacy of the Front Bench on this matter.
  *MR. O'KELLYsaid that, as he had no desire to disturb the millennium, he would withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. WILLIAM O'BRIENsaid that Clause 48 provided a certain remedy in the case of fraudulent tenancies created since 1st March last, whereas, by the Amendment he was about to move he proposed to extend the inquiry to all cases of bogus tenancies created since the passing of the Congested Districts Act for the purpose of defeating it. The power in Clause 48 would be really nugatory, because landlords and graziers knew the date fixed in the Bill. But if no mercy was to be shown in such cases, why should fraudulent transactions be condoned if they dated from a year, or two years, before, when they had the same object, viz., that of forestalling the Bill by tying up land which would be the salvation of the people? As the Chief Secretary was aware, this class of fraud had been one of the chief obstructions to the work of the Congested Districts Board. One farm had been the means of keeping half the county of Mayo in disturbance for two years. In that case an impudent attempt was made by a broken-down
  1582
  grazier to get possession of a large farm which he knew the Congested Districts Board intended to buy, and he succeeded in getting possession, not for any genuine agricultural purpose, but simply to levy blackmail by afterwards selling or surrendering the farm to the Board. He could give many cases of the most shameless fraud of that description, practised at the expense of the people, solely for the purpose of anticipating and defeating the Bill. Why should any mercy be shown to the people who committed these frauds? Why should public money be used absolutely to reward the perpetrators of these frauds, and enable them to filch away for ever this land from the people? The Amendment would involve no hardship on either landlord or grazier, as neither the Board nor the County Council would be in the least likely to make any appeal except in the case of some notorious scandal, while if they did raise a merely vexatious question the Court would give costs against them. The Bill confessed that some inquiry was necessary to defeat frauds of this kind, but the power ought to be made a reality by enabling the inquiry to go back at least five years.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 34, line 17, at end, to add the words '(3) In any case in which the Congested Districts Board, or the Comity Council having jurisdiction in a county comprising a congested districts county, shall be satisfied that a letting of land for the purpose of pasture or an agreement for the agistment or temporary depasturage of land within said congested districts county has been made since the passing of the Act of 1891 with a view to defeating the purposes of Part II. of that Act, it shall be lawful for said Board or said County Council to apply to the Laud Commission Court to have said letting or agreement set aside, and for this purpose notice of such application shall be served within the prescribed time and in the prescribed manner upon the parties to said letting or agreement, and the said Land Commission Court, after giving all the foregoing parties an opportunity of being heard and having considered all the circumstances of the case, may, if satisfied that said letting or agreement as aforesaid has been so made, make an order declaring same to be void as from the date of such order upon such terms as to costs or otherwise as to said Court shall seem just, and thereupon the Congested Districts Board shall have all such powers of purchasing the lands comprised in such order, freed and discharged from said letting or agreement, as are conferred upon them by the Congested Districts Board

  1583
  (Ireland) Acts, as amended by this Act for the purchase of lands whether compulsorily or by agreement.—(Mr. William O'Brien.)
  Question, proposed, "That those words be there added."
  MR. JOHN REDMONDsaid the Chief Secretary had admitted on another Amendment that this safeguard would have to go farther back than was proposed in the Bill, because he had said it must go back so as to deal with cases of tenancies created in view of the Bill of last year. But March of last year was when that Bill was introduced, and the right hon. Gentleman was publicly pledged for a year before to bring in such a Bill. Therefore, the safeguard would need to extend to at least a year prior to the introduction of the Bill of last year.
  MR. WYNDHAM, who said phrase "fraudulent tenancies" must not be attributed to him, explained that the position taken up by the Government was that tenancies created in anticipation of the Act should not be entitled to more than a certain advance. It was quite out of the question to go back five years, but he was prepared to go back to the date of the Queen's Speech of 1901, which he took to be the first official announcement with which he was connected pledging the Government to bring in a Land Bill. It would not be necessary to go even so far as that had not a certain discretion been admitted earlier in the Bill where some relaxation appeared to be necessary.
  MR. WILLIAM O'BRIENsaid that, as the right hon. Gentleman appeared to have said the last word on the point he would withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 72 agreed to.
  Clauses 73, 74, and 75 agreed to.
  Clause 76.
  MR. DILLON, in moving to omit Sub-section 1, said that this part of the Bill had really no right to appear in the measure at all. Nearly every sub-section was open to criticism and objection. The particular proposal with which he was now dealing was that the Lord
  1584
  Chancellor should have power to add another Judge for the purpose of deciding fair rents. Their experience of Judges dealing with fair rents was that they were a public nuisance. The Bessborough Commission had laid down that if, and so far as, public opinion would allow, the proper men to fix fair rents were laymen, and not lawyers. While everybody would be compelled to admit that questions of law ought to be referred to a judicial tribunal, he had always held that on questions of value a tribunal composed mainly of lawyers was most inequitable. At present the Court of Appeal in these cases consisted of two lawyers and two laymen, but it was now proposed to get rid of both laymen and import a Judge, nominated by the Lord Chancellor, in their place. Such a proposal was outrageous. Lawyers had no special knowledge of land, and yet they were to adjudicate on business nineteen-twentieths of which was concerned with nothing but the value of land. The absurdity of the whole proceeding was shown with regard to the position of Mr. Murrough O'Brien. Mr. O'Brien had been one of the head Commissioners for a number of years, and was really the only member fitted by knowledge to adjudicate on these questions, and yet he was to be driven out and a Judge put in his place. A more monstrous proposition was never submitted to the House of Commons, and he could not allow it to without protest.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 35, line 3, to leave out Sub-section 1."—(Mr. Dillon.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
  MR. ATKINSONsaid the hon. Member was under a misapprehension as to the scope and object of this clause. At the present time there was a vast number of arrears. It should be remembered that under this Bill they had imposed very serious and important duties on the present Judicial Commissioner. He would have to decide on questions of law arising under the operation of the Land Purchase Acts, and it was perfectly

  1585
  impossible without repealing a section of the Act of 1881, and setting up a different procedure, to dispose of the vast arrears of fair rent appeals unless they found a Judge somewhere to act in conjunction with the two lay Commissioners. One of the greatest grievances was that there were still thousands of appeals undisposed of. The hon. Member had said that they should appoint a new Judicial Commissioner. It was obvious that a Judicial Commissioner would not be required as soon as the present appeals in arrear had been dealt with. It was for that reason that it was proposed to give the Lord Chancellor power to avail himself of the services of a Judge from the Superior Courts. That Judge would contribute the legal element to the tribunal. The hon. Member seemed to have no conception of the questions which would arise under this Act if it was to be a success.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELLsaid there must be a Judicial Commissioner to hear appeals in fair rent cases. Mr. Justice Meredith was to decide cases under the new Act, and therefore if the Court was to sit, there must be a new Judicial Commissioner. He thought it was a most unfortunate thing that they should import a Judge to decide appeals on the value of land which he knew absolutely nothing about. He had an idea how the cases would be decided.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid that what happened was this. These gentlemen sent down a Court valuer, and though a party to a case might argue and give evidence for ever, the Court would stick to the value put on the land by the Court valuer. The Judge of the High Court would confirm the value given by the Court valuer, who would probably be a gentleman paid 30s. a week.
  MR. DILLONasked where the two lay Commissioners were to come from, and what was to become of Mr. Fitzgerald? Under Sub-section (4) it was proposed to turn that gentleman into a Judicial Commissioner. What was he going to do? His reading of a subsequent clause in the Bill was that appeals were to be heard in future by a single
  1586
  Judicial Commissioner. If that was correct, what was the meaning of the Attorney-General saying that it was necessary to bring in a Judge to constitute a Court with two lay Commissioners He wished a frank statement from the right hon. and learned Gentleman as to what was the necessity for the Judge, and what was the procedure in respect of appeals which it was proposed to set up under this most unfortunate part of the Act.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid Part III. of the Bill was necessary, unless he was to be endowed with the gifts of some god, and have unlimited time and money always at his disposal. The Exchequer of this kingdom would not allow the Chief Secretary to have as many Judicial Commissioners as he might consider needful. Something in the nature of Part III, was a necessary corollary of the rest of the Bill. He thought it was part of the scheme of the Bill as a whole that they should not create more and more Judicial Commissioners to deal with rent fixing, unless it should appear that this Act was a failure. If it should appear, as be hoped, that a great many people would abandon their appeals which had been going on for two years on questions involving 5s. on a £4 rent, he believed the provisions of Part III. would help to wind up some of the litigation, and help them to deal with matter's arising out of the distribution of the purchase money. All who knew Mr. Justice Meredith would admit that they would be very foolish if they did not take advantage of his assistance in the distribution of the purchase money. Unless they got competent assistance on that matter, this Act would be a most profound disappointment in Ireland. The position would be improved if he were to appoint another Judicial Commissioner, but he had not the resources at his command.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsuggested to the hon. Member for East Mayo that his purpose would be completely served by leaving out the words, "before the first day of January one thousand nine hundred and two," in the second subsection, because then no Judge could be appointed without his own consent, and, of course, no Judge would consent to take

  1587
  this work on. As far as he could make out, Mr. Justice Barton and Mr. Justice Wright might be nominated by their own consent. Were these men, who had been accustomed to large fees, to go down to Killarney and Donegal and pay their expenses out of their own pockets? And therefore the Treasury would be just as badly off as before. It was a most natural thing that no man wanted to go down and live in a country hotel in Ireland and sleep in damp sheets if he could possibly avoid it. And did anyone imagine that these gentlemen would go down there at their own expense, without some compensation, to save the Treasury? But suppose these two gentlemen refused to go, an Address would be required to be carried in both Houses of Parliament for their removal from the Bench on account of their refusal to obey the directions of the Lord Chancellor. That was absurd He did not know what really to do about it, and he shared the objection of the hon. Member for East Mayo.
  *SIR JOHN COLOMBsaid that according to all the information he could obtain the great bulk of the landlords of Ireland were against Part III. of the Bill. But when the Chief Secretary told the Committee positively that he could not give way on this matter, that the Treasury would not give way, and that the Government would not give way, he was compelled to withdraw his Amendments, although he was bound to say it was with great regret.
  MR. DILLONsaid that this was a most unfortunate end to the discussion. He did not want to have an even worse man brought into the court to take the place of Judge Meredith. The proposal of the Chief Secretary would revolutionise the whole system, and in his opinion would render the condition of the tenants desperate, because it would put this gentleman in absolute control of the whole machine. There was much talk about economy, but he maintained that to ram down their throats the proposal to make another Judge was not economy, but waste. The Judge would say, "If you are going to give me something more
  1588
  to do, you must give me an addition to my salary, seeing that Mr. Wrench gets an additional £500 a year for crossing, the street." He warned the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he would be called upon very shortly to grant an additional £500 or £1,000 a year to this Judge. He held that the sub-section was extravagant and unnecessary.
  MR. TULLYsaid that this was a most critical and most crucial point in the Bill, and he respectfully asked the Committee to go to a division.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid he really thought that a Judge should be appointed who had no interest in land A Judge who was a shareholder in a railway company would not sit in a case affecting that company. Whatever else might be said against Mr. Gerald Fitzgerald, he was not a landlord, although he had always objected to Mr. Fitzgerald as a member of the Kildare Street Club. The Government would not appoint a Member of the Irish Land League, or of a Land League club to do work of this kind. It would modify his views if the Government were to insert the words "not possessing any interest in land." In the Act of 1889, Mr. Gladstone was most careful to provide that the two gentlemen on the Commission to represent the tenants, and one agent to represent the landlords, should have no interest in land. When it came to this absolutely new proposal it was rather strong to appoint one of these gentlemen, who knew nothing about land, and another who knew too much about land, it seemed to him that it would be better to have a Judge who knew nothing about land than one who knew too much about land. The effect of Clause 78 would be rather to diminish the number of land appeals, and it was difficult to see what extra work these gentlemen would have to do.
  And, it being half-past Seven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again this evening.

EVENING SITTING.

  IRISH LAND BILL.
  Considered in Committee:—
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]
  Clause 76:—
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 35, line 3, to leave out Sub-section (1)."—(Mr. Dillon.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
  *MR. T. W. RUSSELLasked for some information with regard to these subsections. He noticed that by them it was intended to have three Judicial Commissioners and that when either of these Judicial Commissionerss at to hear appeals from the Sub-commissioners he was to be assisted by a properly qualified lay assessor. The hon. Member for North Louth in the beginning of the debate had said that all this would not matter because the Judicial Commissioner on the question of value would be guided by the report of the Court valuer, but that was exactly what would not happen. It would also be interesting to know where this specially qualified assessor was to come from, because he knew of nobody in Ireland who had any pretence to be called a land valuer who had not taken sides either with one party or the other. An impartial assessor of Irish land did not exist. If, however, he was assured that this specially qualified assessor would have the supreme voice in the question of value then his opinion on this matter might be somewhat modified.
  MR. ATKINSONsaid there was no Judge who would come within the first clause at present. It was anticipated that under the Land Purchase Acts under this Bill there would be a great deal of business to be eventually carried out. If this Bill was to be a success it was absolutely necessary that they should have one or two Judicial Commissioners to deal with it. Nothing could be more unfortunate for landlords and tenants than that there should be any block in
  1590
  the Land Courts, either with regard to land purchase or with regard to the administration of the funds, and it was possible, if this Bill was to be a success, that a great many difficult questions might arise. At present there were 13,000 appeals pending. It would be quite impossible to spare a regular Commissioner to sit with the Judge of the Land Court and in case of an appeal on the question of fair rent, it was felt it would be a great deal better that they should have a land valuer to sit as an assessor. The hon. Member for South Tyrone was rather difficult to please. He said the assessor or Judge must be a man aquainted with Irish land, and then he said there was no man in Ireland acquainted with Irish land who was not a partisan. How on earth then, were they to create a tribunal at all? If they went outside to choose, it would be said the man was not acquainted with Irish land; on the other hand, an in side man was said to be a partisan. He believed in case of an appeal a Judge and assessor would be a perfect tribunal, resembling what happened in the Court of Admiralty. The most difficult questions that any human being could be called upon to decide were the questions of patents; no Judge could have a personal knowledge of any particular patent but a Judge had to deal with evidence, and there was no difficulty in dealing with evidence, always provided that for the technicalities he could rely on the assessor. The assessor would be selected from among the most competent land valuers.
  MR. HEMPHILLsaid he had no objection to this first sub-section, but it was quite another question when they came to deal with the other subsections. It was most desirable, in order to prevent any block, that there should be a Judicial Commissioner in reserve to act when required, because if from any cause, in the case of one Judicial Commissioner, he was incapacitated for any length of time, unless they had someone to fall back upon, the business might come to a standstill. He pointed out that this matter involved no extra expense to the country, as it only applied to future appointed Judges. It afforded, if there was to be any Judicial Commissioner at all, an opportunity of having a Judge, and it was most desirable

  1591
  that there should be a reserve. He did not, in supporting this, pledge himself to support the other sub-sections. The only question here, as it seemed to him, was whether they should depend upon one man or have a reserve to fall back upon.
  MR. DILLONsaid this sub-section had been sought to be justified on the ground of economy; but instead of economy it was nothing but extravagance. They had had a declaration from the landlords that they did not care for this clause, and in fact nobody wanted it except the Government. Why would they need two Commissioners? The Land Court got on with one Commissioner.
  MR. ATKINSON: Thirteen thousand appeals accumulated.
  MR. DILLONsaid they accumulated owing to the conduct of the landlords and the Government. That was not a sufficient answer for introducing two Commissioners but, even if it were, was this the way to promote economy? This third part of the Bill was simply outrageous. The Attorney-General for Ireland got up to defend it, and informed the Committee that if this were passed there was no present Judge available for the position. Then who was to be the Judge? Was it to be the hon. and learned Solicitor-General for Ireland, because he was old enough to remember the Bright Commission, when the Solicitor-General was counsel for the landlords and made the most ferociously eloquent speeches denouncing the tenants and the Land Court for cutting down the rents of the landlords? Was that the gentleman who was to be the Judge? The fact of the matter was, that this portion of the Bill was part of a system devised by the Government to stop all reductions of rent in Ireland in order to pave the way for purchase at a high price. If the Government would agree to omit Subsection 4 of Clause 76, and to drop out Section 78, he would not detain the Committee further.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILLsaid he must support the Amendment. The Attorney-General was not quite candid when he said no Judge now on the Irish Bench could be appointed. The hon.
  1592
  and learned Gentleman was called to the Bar in 1865, and had had a long experience. Did he ever know a Judge who had been asked by the Lord Chancellor to take an appointment to refuse it? He would not instance cases, but he knew of cases in which men, now dead and gone, not only accepted such appointments, but based claims for future promotion upon the fact that they had done so. In his opinion the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, who was a member of the Cabinet, was not the proper person to appoint a Judge for the discharge of such peculiarly delicate work as this. The appointment should be made by a person not in the Cabinet. The present Lord Chancellor was the chief antagonist of Mr. Gladstone on the question of the Land Act of 1881, and therefore could scarcely have any great regard for this Bill. He objected to this clause, because it brought most improperly the Irish Judges into connection with the Executive Government. An Irish Judge appointed under this Bill woud be bound to be more or less influenced to do his best for his employers, with a view to honours and titles afterwards. Mr. Gerald Fitzgerald had as much experience as any other Judge on the Bench, and was certainly an expert on the land question. He was an old friend of his own, and he did not choose to say anything against him; but would it be denied that his environment led him towards the landlord party? Surely the landlord party ought to be content with Mr. Gerald Fitzgerald without further assistance from the Irish judiciary. Of course, the Irish Judges would be only too delighted to take on this work, even without salary, because it would bring them into contact with the Government and give them something to do. The whole scheme of the finance of the Bill had been extremely clever; but this particular clause was merely a pretext for providing appointments for legal favourites of the Government. As soon as a Judge was appointed a Judicial Commissioner, so surely would there be an additional salary paid to him.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid it was more than doubtful whether he could contribute anything to the debate which would assist the Committee in arriving at a decision on this point; but perhaps it might be his good fortune to assist the

  1593
  Committee if he illustrated this particular section and also showed the relation of this part of the Bill to the Bill as a whole. The hon. Gentleman who had just spoken said that the Judges of Ireland would all jump at the opportunity of helping Mr. Justice Meredith in discharging duties which were not very attractive, but no Judge would be bound to take up this work except with his own consent. All the section provided for was that among the many friends of Mr. Justice Meredith on the Bench, there might be some who would be prepared to give him assistance in the leisure moments which he understood some Irish Judges enjoyed. That was the whole of the section. They were bringing up the personnel of the Land Commission to a total of seven Commissioners. The Bill was described by some of its hostile critics in this country, as far as it had any hostile critics, as a leap in the dark. He hoped it was a leap into the light out of the darkness of the past. They were having seven salaried officials, and it was unreasonable to ask the public to hedge against all possibility of failure, and to appoint a number of persons to discharge rent fixing and judicial work in the event of land purchase failing. He believed that land purchase would succeed, and if it did succeed it would not be in the interest of a tenant who paid £4 rent to carry on a suit for two years on a question of 5s. a year, nor would it be to the interests of the landlord or his agent to appeal indiscriminately. A great deal of litigation would happily disappear. The hon. Member for South Tyrone was doing his best to expedite the progress of the Bill. The hon. Member intervened in Part III, which was his special problem, but he had not intervened again. He would ask the hon. Member if it was practical politics that they should have a judicial staff to carry on litigation on the scale on which it had unfortunately existed in the past. As to the question of personnel, Mr. Gerald Fitzgerald would take up new duties. Some might think that another distinguished gentleman might discharge them with greater satisfaction. That might be so, but Mr. Fitzgerald had legal qualifications, and he could not go to his colleagues and the Exchequer and say that because certain people were not quite satisfied with Mr. Fitzgerald another Judicial Commissioner should be appointed. It came to that,
  1594
  because by hypothesis Mr. Justice Meredith, and Mr. Fitzgerald for that matter, would have to give assistance in carrying out the Act unless there was to be great disappointment. In the distribution of the purchase money the assistance of Mr. Justice Meredith would be invaluable. He did not think he was stating anything that was not known when he said that Mr. Justice Meredith was heart and soul in favour of land purchase, and in making this Bill a workable measure; nor did he think that a Judge of the high character of Mr. Justice Meredith should be asked to spend one week out of every two in deciding questions involving 2s. or 5s. a year. Further, it would be cruel to both landlords and tenants that they should be asked to go on with this litigation. The Bill gave them an opportunity of escape, and in his opinion there would be very few who would not take it. If Mr. Justice Meredith was to give assistance in the distribution of the purchase money there must be some provision for dealing with accumulated appeals. Mr. Fitzgerald was there, and was, in his opinion, quite competent to perform that duty; and it would not be reasonable for him to ask the Treasury for another man. Mr. Fitzgerald had a salary of £3,000 a year; and it was proposed, because of the new work which was to be thrown upon him, to give him a pension calculated on £2,500 a year.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELLsaid the right hon. Gentleman should remember that Mr. Fitzgerald, in 1892, commuted his pension. He got the choice of a salary of £3,000 a year without a pension or £2,500 a year with a pension, and he took the £3,000.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid that all those points had been raised again and again, and the hon. Gentleman must forgive him for not opening them up now. As a rule, those matters were decided upon a hard and fast scale, and personal considerations were not allowed to influence in the slightest degree the salaries or pensions that were given. As regarded Mr. Murrough O'Brien, there was no precedent in any Act for giving him a pension. He thought it would be a pity, however, if any cause had been given to think that a slight was intended on Mr. Murrough O'Brien; and, therefore,

  1595
  although there was no precedent in the whole Statute-book for giving him a pension, and although the Treasury were perfectly entitled to say to himself that the matter did not enter into the Bill in any shape or form, his right hon. friend had acceded to his request, and Mr. Murrough O'Brien would have a pension. Mr. Murrough O'Brien had a longer record of continuous service than Mr. Gerald Fitzgerald, and he would receive a substantial pension. With reference to Mr. Bailey and Mr. Finucane their salary was £2,000 a year, and he thought that hon. Members from Ireland would agree with him that when they were making new appointments, even if there might be some semblance of injustice as compared with old appointments, they should arrange the salaries on a scale having relation to the wealth of Ireland. The pension of the new Commissioners would be on the scale which obtained at the Treasury. Mr. Bailey had been a public officer of the State for years; and Mr. Finucane had entered the Civil Service years and years ago, and his past services as a public servant would accrue for a pension. He was a man who he was sure would do excellent work in his native land in connection with the Bill; and when his time for pension came it would be a substantial one. Mr. Wrench had a salary of £3,000 a year on the Consolidated Fund. He, like Mr. Justice Meredith, was heart and soul in favour of the policy of land purchase; and he had great experience in these matters. If the Bill were to succeed it would be folly on his part not to secure the services of such a man; but he could not ask Mr. Wrench to serve without giving him additional emolument. He thought Mr. Wrench had met him handsomely in the matter. Mr. Wrench was to have no pension. He assured the Committee that he had done his level best to solve the problem of getting for this great national object the men who, in his opinion, could best carry out this Bill, and who would be ready to work with each other; and he thought that was more important than any question of the exact proportion of their salaries and pensions. But the Government held that there must be some simplification in the rent-fixing
  1596
  procedure in the future; and that that simplification was not only good in itself, but was almost a necessary concession to the financial position, when they were putting such great financial resources upon the purchase side of the transaction. Was it reasonable that fifty, sixty, or seventy temporary Sub-commissioners should be employed, that two laymen and a man with judicial experience should, in the first instance, be sent down to look at a plot of land of very little value; that a valuer should be sent down; that there should be an appeal before three highly - salaried officers of State; and that a period of two years should be taken to decide whether a particular rent should be £4 10s. or £4 15s.? It would be a scandal if, after this Bill became an Act, such wholesale litigation took place as had taken place in the past. Therefore, when he had been asking his colleagues and the guardian of the national purse to give greater facilities, he felt it his duty to show that there would be savings, and that the great army of officials would not be kept on. If he were asked for an act of faith to show that he was not leading everyone into a fool's paradise, he would say that one legal Sub-commissioner and one lay Sub-commissioner would be a sufficient tribunal if the Bill passed, and that one Judicial Commissioner and a qualified assessor would be a sufficient appellant tribunal. If they had faith in this Bill as a purchase Bill, then they could economise on the rent-fixing side. He had felt himself compelled to give some evidence to his colleagues that such economies were possible, and those economies were embodied in the third part of the Bill.
  MR. DILLONcomplained that the right hon. Gentleman had embarked on a Second Reading speech, and protested against the assumption underlying it that the Nationalist Members were objecting to the proposed economies in the third part of the Bill. When the right hon. Gentleman, in impassioned language, talked about the necessity for limiting the enormous number of appeals, he was confounded by his audacity, because in the year 1894, in the Morley Committee's Report, the Nationalist Party proposed a paragraph recommending the abolition of appeals in all cases below £20. Yet

  1597
  now the right hon. Gentleman, whose Party were bitterly opposed to that recommendation and voted against it, leaving the room at the end of the proceedings headed by the present Minister for War, and who thereby made themselves responsible for at least three-fourths of these appeals, was now appealing to the Nationalist Party not to encourage the multiplication of appeals! It was rather too much of a good thing to speak as if it were the Nationalist Party which had been in the habit of insisting on the right to carry innumerable appeals to the Courts above. They had always been more than willing to provide for the abolition of appeals except in cases above £20, and personally he would be prepared to accept the risk offered by the proposal of the hon. and learned Member for Louth to stop appeals altogether. The right hon. Gentleman had spoken as if the object of Part III. of the Bill was to stop appeals on questions of valuation. He did not think that that accurately described it. The point was a very technical one, and he might be mistaken.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid the object of the sub-section was to put obstructions in the way of appeals by giving the Commissioners power to refuse to entertain certain evidence. The whole tendency of the section was to penalise those who brought frivolous appeals.
  MR. DILLONsaid he did not, of course, object to that. But the proof that the section did not stop appeals altogether on the question of valuation was to be found in the provision that the appeals were to be heard by one Judicial Commissioner with the assistance of a specially qualified assessor. What could the assessor do except advise on questions of valuation? Thus the whole system of appeals would still stand, and it was preposterous for the right hon. Gentleman to get up and lecture them.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I am sure I attempted nothing in the nature of a lecture.
  MR. DILLONsaid he wished to repudiate the idea that the Nationalist Party ever favoured the right of appeal. Still, so far as the sub-section would obstruct frivolous appeals, he was heartily in
  1598
  favour of it, especially as some of its provisions were advocated by them years ago.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid that, whilst opposing the right hon. Gentleman on this clause, he did so without any sense of satisfaction, as he felt that he was arguing with a man who more or less agreed with Members on that side, but who had been to some extent defeated in his struggles with the Treasury. The right hon. Gentleman was engaged in the task of looping the loop; he had had tremendous difficulties to face in arguing with the Treasury, and he naturally came to that House in an exhausted frame of mind after those argument. They fully appreciated the struggles he had made, however, and in any arguments they brought forward they had no desire to in any degree disparage his efforts. The right hon. Gentleman had referred to the proposal made in the Report of the Morley Committee. What were the figures to preserve which he was now making a tremendous struggle on the landlord side?
  MR. WYNDHAM: The landlords always opposed it.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: Well, I can stand a lot, but I cannot admit that. The Report stated that the system of rehearing questions on appeal was one of the causes which deterred tenants from making applications to have fair rents fixed. The effect of 21,847 rehearings and appeals had been to add about £2,383 to £466,871 of rental. That was what the landlords were fighting about. The addition represented about one-half of the Judge's salary, and putting the cost of each appeal, say £5, to the tenant and £6 to the landlord, the parties must have spent a quarter of a million sterling in order to get the rents increased by £2,383. The recommendation of the Committee was that where the value of the holding did not exceed £20, there should be no rehearing on the question of value. In a matter, therefore, in which the loss to the landlords would be so trifling and the gain to the tenants so material, surely the way to cut the Gordian knot was not to bring in any Judge of the High Court at all for the purpose of hearing appeals. They would thus please the Treasury, which he

  1599
  believed was the determining factor in these matters, by saving the addition of £500 a year to the Judge's salary and by saving the proposed addition of £500 annually to Mr. Gerald Fitzgerald's salary. Further than that, they would save litigants a quarter of a million of money by abolishing the system of trivial appeals. Let them take an example from the English County Court system where the litigant was entirely at the mercy of one individual. Let them apply a like principle to Ireland. The right hon. Gentleman had said he was endeavouring to adjust matters by giving Mr. Wrench an additional £500 a year. Now, by reason of the position he had taken up, he was bound not to attack Mr. Wrench; he did not think it would be well to antagonise the man in view of the duties he was about to undertake. He would be in office whether they liked it or not. But what he did object to was the disparity of treatment between the Land Commissioners which occurred in the Reports of the Land Commission. Why should Mr. Gerald Fitzgerald always sign first, Mr. Lynch second, and Mr. Wrench third? Why should Mr. Lynch be in a position of inferiority to Mr. Gerald Fitzgerald? Why should the last-named be given £3,000 a year with a pension when he promised to take £3,000 without a pension? The right hon. Gentleman need not resent criticism from that side of the House. They were criticising the Treasury and not him. The right hon. Gentleman had said that land purchase in the future would be the rod that would swallow up all other rods. Well, the true test of it would be the abolition of the system of appeals. What difficulty need the landlords have in regard to that? If they were going to sell their estates they would have no interest whatever in the appeals. Let them show, then, a little more consideration for tenants.
  In reply to a question by Mr. CLANCY,
  MR. ATKINSONsaid the object was to abolish rehearing, and therefore it was provided that no evidence not given below should be given on appeal except by special leave, and that no question should be raised above which was not raised below. That would ensure their being appeals proper as distinct from rehearings.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 35, line 13, to leave out Sub-section 3."—(Mr. Wyndham.)
  Amendment agreed to.
  *MR. T. W. RUSSELL, in moving the omission of Sub-section (4), said he could not allow this proposal to pass without a most resolute protest. Of Mr. Commissioner Fitzgerald he knew nothing personally; the only time he had seen him was when he appeared as a witness before the Morley Committee; but it was necessary, in connection with such an Amendment, to sketch Mr. Fitzgerald's history in connection with the land question. In 1881 or 1882 this gentleman was appointed a legal Assistant commissioner under the Act of 1881, but he did not serve long in that capacity. In the counties of Tyrone and Armagh, the district to which he was sent, the indignation against his proceedings was so great that he was almost at once removed from the district. He was then made a County Court Judge, in which office he served for several years. An event then occurred which he believed had materially affected the administration of the Land Acts. Mr. Gladstone, when appointing the Land Commission, took great pains to see that it was fairly constituted, Mr. Justice O'Hagan being appointed as Judicial Commissioner; Mr. Vernon, a land agent, as the representative of the landlords; and Mr. Litton, a representative of the tenant farmers, as the representative of the tenants. Several years elapsed. Mr. Justice O'Hagan's health gave way, and there were rumours that he was about to retire. One morning, without a word of warning, the announcement appeared in the papers that Mr. Justice O'Hagan had retired,' that Mr. Litton had been appointed Judicial Commissioner, and that Mr. Gerald Fitzgerald had taken Mr. Litton's place as the representative of the tenants. Afterwards, when Mr. Vernon died, Mr. Wrench took Mr. Vernon's place as the representative of the landlords. Thus the tenants were deprived of any representative on the Commission whatever, for Mr. Fitzgerald was regarded as a man simply steeped in landlord prejudice.

  1601
  It was one of the jobs which had been the disgrace of Dublin Castle from time immemorial. Such was Mr. Fitzgerald's career in the Land Commission; he had never had any position at the Bar, and if he had not been Lord Fitzgerald's son he would never have had a position anywhere. He was now to be made a Judicial Commissioner, an office for which he had no legal qualifications, and in which he would not be regarded with the least confidence by the tenants. In fact, the tenants blamed Mr. Fitzgerald for nearly all the injustices they considered they had suffered at the hands of the Land Commission, and yet this was the man who was to be placed in a position to review the decisions of other men. What could be said in defence of such a position? There was also another point. Under the Act of 1892 the members of the Land Commission had the option of a salary of £3,000 without a pension, or a salary of £2,500 with a pension, and Mr. Fitzgerald elected to take the former. What was that but commuting his right to a pension? But it was now proposed not only to improve Mr. Fitzgerald's position, but to give him a pension as well. To put in such a position as was here proposed, a man who was hated by the people whose cases he would have to hear, and who believed him to be the bitterest partisan on the landlords' side, was nothing short of a public scandal, and to give him a pension in addition was a thing not to be dreamt of. He begged to move.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 35, line 20, to leave out Sub-section 4."—(Mr. T. W. Russell.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
  MR. T. P. O'CONNORsaid that in moving this Amendment the hon. Member for South Tyrone represented the opinion of every representative of the tenants in Ireland. He was surprised that the Chief Secretary should have selected this man to carry out the Act, because it had always been recognised as a fundamental principle that when a great and revolutionary Act was passed, its administration should be placed in the hands of persons who
  1602
  were in sympathy with its spirit and objects. The right hon. Gentleman had given an admirable exposition of the views which inspired him in the selection of these officials and in justification of their salaries and pensions, but he had not dealt with the real underlying objection—viz., that he had gone out of his way to exclude from the administration of the Act the one man in whom the tenantry of Ireland had special confidence, and that he had equally gone out of his way to force into the administration the man in whom they had no confidence whatever. If this Bill was to have the beneficial results which all hoped for from its operation, surely the best way to begin its administration was not to place in every circumstance of advantage a man regarded as an enemy of its spirit and principle, and to drive from its administration the one man who had shown a keen and ardent sympathy, not with the rights of the tenant as against the landlord, but with the principle that the property of the tenant should be regarded as being as sacred as the property of the landlord The right hon. Gentleman had often declared that this measure would depend for its effectiveness upon the spirit with which it was received by the Irish people. That being so, it was to be deeply deplored that the Chief Secretary had taken a step so prejudicial to the efficient working of the Bill, but which all would join in hoping would not prove to be as disastrous as many of them feared.
  As no other Member rose to speak,
  *THE CHAIRMANwas about to put the Question, when—
  MR. T. M. HEALYasked: Has not the right hon. Gentleman one word to say in defence?
  THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. JAMES CAMPBELL,)said that ever since the Act of 1881 was passed he had had considerable experience of its working, and perhaps he might be permitted to say a few words in reply to the speech made by the hon. Member for South Tyrone. Under this Bill they proposed

  1603
  to institute a new department called the Estates Commissioners, and three gentlemen had been nominated. One of these was Mr. Wrench, and the other two were new appointments. If this Bill were attended with the success that his right hon. friend the Chief Secretary, in conjunction with all Irish representatives, hoped for, the outstanding appeals on the subject matter of fair rent were likely to be largely diminished. It was expected that a great many litigants who elected to take advantage of the benefits conferred by this Purchase Act would not pursue their appeals, which would be withdrawn. If that result came off of course there would be no necessity to maintain the machinery of the existing Courts of Appeal in connection with the Land Commission in fair rent cases. At the present time the practice was that three Commissioners should sit together for hearing these appeals and other fair rent matters, two of them being lay Commissioners and the third the Judicial Commissioner. Under this Bill Mr. Wrench had been transferred to the Estates Commission. Mr. Lynch had earned by long service a right to retire, and he believed that he intended to retire. In that case Mr. Murrough O'Brien would be the only one left as a lay Commissioner except Mr. Fitzgerald. Mr. Murrough O'Brien now-got for the first time a pension. Assuming that he exercised his right to retire it was provided for in this Bill that the vacancy would not be filled up. Mr. Wrench had been transferred, and of the old body of Land Commissioners they had only got Mr. Justice Meredith and Mr. Fitzgerald left. There were at present 13,000 appeals, and it was not to be assumed that all of them would disappear; but assuming that a large number of them would be discontinued some provision had to be made for the trial of the balance. Consequently, they had to provide for every contingency under this Act, and the Treasury were anxious to effect an equivalent saving in the department which they were trying to supersede, namely, the rent-fixing department. Machinery was provided by which these appeals would be disposed of by the Judicial Commissioner, and in the event of that machinery not being sufficient, power was given in this
  1604
  Bill to call upon any Judge appointed since 1902 to act as a Judicial Commissioner in order to deal with any block in the business of the Court. The hon. Member for South Tyrone had made a rather bitter attack on Mr. Commissioner Fitzgerald. As an advocate for both tenants and landlords he had had many opportunities of observing Mr. Fitzgerald in the discharge of his duties, and he had no hesitation in saying that Mr. Fitzgerald, whether as a Sub-commissioner or a County Court Judge, or finally as a Land Commissioner, had invariably acted ably, conscientiously, and fearlessly. It was very difficult for a man in Mr. Fitzgerald's position in Ireland to escape the charge of being a partisan. Mr. Fitzgerald had been denounced that night as a landlords' man. He had over and over again heard Mr. Fitzgerald charged with being a partisan of the tenants. Mr. Fitzgerald was to be retained as a Judicial Commissioner to decide appeals in fair-rent cases, with the assistance of a lay colleague, but it was hoped that these appeals would be very few in number. As for Mr. Justice Meredith, he never was a politician and he did not believe that he ever attended a political meeting.
  MR. HEALY: Yes, he did.
  MR. JAMES CAMPBELLsaid that Mr. Justice Meredith devoted his time and energies to his profession, and he could safely say that he never was an aggressive or active politician. There never had been a Judge who had brought to the discharge of his duty more energy or industry or a higher idea of what was due from him than Mr. Justice Meredith. The question was, what was to be done with Mr. Commissioner Fitzgerald? Was he to retire or were his services to be availed of under this Act? His right hon. friend the Chief Secretary had gone through as severe an ordeal as any Minister ever had gone through in regard to the financial proposals of this Bill. Was he to suggest to the Treasury that Mr. Commissioner Fitzgerald's services should not be utilized? No one could suggest that Mr. Fitzgerald

  1605
  was not competent to discharge his duties, physically, at least. For the last twenty-five years he had had daily experience in the administration of the Land Acts, and no man placed in that position could fail to acquire the character of a partisan. He had heard it repeatedly alleged by the hon. Member for South Tyrone that Mr. Fitzgerald was a landlords' man, but undoubtedly he was a gentleman who had discharged duties for nearly a quarter of a century in a way which commended itself to the profession of which he was a member. Mr. Fitzgerald had been retained, and he would be entitled to administer the law in the matter of any of these appeals which were still reserved. He doubted if English hon. Members knew the nature and extent of the matters which might be dealt with in one sitting of these Courts. So long as they had this system of fair rents they must have these appeals, and therefore they must have competent judicial persons to preside over the hearing of them. In electing Mr. Commissioner Fitzgerald for this function regard had been had to the fact that for twenty-five years he had had every opportunity of making himself acquainted with this particular work, in which he had given every satisfaction both to landlords and tenants.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid the hon. and learned Member had not touched the real point at issue, and had argued the matter purely on financial grounds. He wondered whether the Solicitor-General had the authority of Mr. Commissioner Lynch or Mr. Commissioner O'Brien for stating that they were about to retire. Mr. Lynch had been dismissed by the Solicitor-General without the
  1606
  dropping of a tear. He had endeavoured to find out the reason why the hon. and learned Gentleman had delivered this masterly speech in regard to these three great personalities. If they were dealing with a House of Commons which did not contain any Irishmen he could have understood that speech, but there was hardly an Englishman in the House, and therefore they could not be fooled. The speech of the Solicitor-General was rather a bad compliment to his own countrymen. Was there any reason under Heaven why different treatment should be meted out to one of these gentlemen above or below another? Unless some non-performance of duty or absence of intellect could be shown as a reason why A should be treated differently to B, the conclusion must be arrived at that gross injustice was being done. Who was responsible for this injustice? He knew the Chief Secretary had absolutely nothing to do with it, and he did not believe the Attorney General was capable of treating any man with injustice, and the Solicitor-General was not a law officer with a seat in the House when the Bill was drafted. They were fighting shadows, because there was not one man in that trinity who was responsible. Where, then, were they to look for the responsible parent of this extraordinary arrangement? He really thought it must have arisen from some official spontaneous generation. It was the outgrowth of the Castle system. The Irish Secretary had gained the sympathy of the Committee by his heroic performance in reference to the other clauses, and no one wished to say a harsh thing about him. No one wished to go to a division upon this Amendment for fear that they would beat the Government upon this clause, and so the gentleman who

  1607
  would be placed in this position could boast that he received his appointment as Judicial Commissioner by the unanimous consent of the House of Commons. It was to be hoped he would not deserve further censure. He trusted the Government would see that the one solution of this difficulty was to provide that his colleagues, Mr. Lynch and Mr. Murrough O'Brien, having deserved well of the country, should be on the same footing of equality with regard to finance as their more lucky colleagues.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  MR. DILLONmoved to add the name of Mr. Murrough O'Brien as an additional Judicial Commissioner. The Solicitor-General in the speech which he delivered a few minutes ago explained what was to be the future constitution of the Appeal Court. The hon. and learned Gentleman stated that Mr. Commissioner O'Brien and Mr. Commissioner Lynch were to disappear from the scene, and on that he based the necessity for appointing a qualified assessor. What was the necessity for appointing a qualified assessor? He assumed that Gentleman would receive a salary of £1,000 a year, or some considerable amount. This clause had one great vice which he thought no executive Government should ever indulge in. Commissioners had been excessively rewarded because they were supposed to have favoured one side in the various litigations which had come before them, while they expelled a man who had the confidence of the great mass of the people. That was a proceeding on the part of the Government which must tend to de-
  1608
  moralise the Judicial Bench in Ireland. He moved:
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 35, line 20, to leave out the word 'one,' and insert the words 'and Mr. Murrough O'Brien, two.'"—(Mr. Dillon.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'one' stand part of the clause."
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he had already endeavoured to state the general grounds that led the Government to adopt Part III. of the Bill. He thought in discussing this matter they might eliminate all personal questions. The point at issue really was whether the Government were right or wrong in selecting Mr. Gerald Fitzgerald for this post. He was responsible for that selection, and could assure the Committee that he should not have made it had he not felt that Mr Fitzgerald was perfectly competent to discharge the duties which would devolve upon him. When attacks were made on servants of the Crown it was incumbent on the Minister as a matter of duty to defend them. He asked the Committee to take it from him that Mr. Fitzgerald was competent for the duties. In not appointing Mr. O'Brien or Mr. Lynch there was no slight whatever cast upon these gentlemen. He gathered that some hon. Members from Ireland were not satisfied that the Government in this manner had acted discreetly. He was there to defend the discretion which they exercised.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 35, line 26, at end, to insert the words 'and shall be entitled to a superannuation allowance calculated on a salary of two thousand five hundred pounds and otherwise in accordance with the provisions of the Super-annuation Acts, 1834 to 1887.'"—(Mr. Wyndham.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  MR. DILLONsaid it was impossible to allow this transaction to go through without a word of protest. This was really a most scandalous job. It was not correct to say that Mr. Commissioner Fitzgerald under this Act was having any additional work placed on his shoulders. Why was he to get a provision? Under an arrangement come to in 1892 Mr. Fitzgerald received £500 a year extra per annum on the undertaking that he would not claim a pension. He had been drawing that extra sum for eleven years, and now the Government came forward and claimed that he should receive a pension. This clause was recommended to the Committee on the ground of economy, and yet the Government proposed this extraordinary job. The right hon. Gentleman in making the proposal had not said one word in justification of it? What was the ground for making it? They could only assume that it was a reward for services. It was a monstrous thing to propose to the House of Commons that Mr. Fitzgerald should be allowed to go back on the bargain made with the Treasury. To give him the right to a pension now after he had drawn for eleven years £500 a year extra for having agreed not to claim a pension was a most corrupt transaction. The very same considerations applied to Mr. Commissioner Wrench, who accepted a similar arrangement eleven years ago. Did anybody deny that under some future Bill Mr. Wrench would not also be given the right to a pension? Of course he would. Mr. O'Brien was practically dismissed because, he supposed, he did not give
  1610
  satisfaction to the gang who controlled the Castle in Dublin.
  MR. WYNDHAMwould not reply to the remarks of the hon. Member, who was good enough to say that his action had been influenced by what he called "the gang who controlled the Castle," but would ask the Committee not to consider him discourteous if he did not repeat all he had endeavoured to explain on a former occasion as to the grounds affecting his action. It had been pointed out to him that the omission of Mr. O'Brien from the pension provision might be held to constitute a slight upon him; and although there was no precedent for a pension in this case he had secured one for him. He explained that he had recast the provisions of this clause and had gone to the Treasury in an endeavour to meet the Committee on the point. Mr. Wrench would serve under another tenure than that which he now enjoyed; additional pay was given to him for additional services, and the pension had been withdrawn. He regretted that these efforts had been futile, and he now felt that any further defence would not induce hon. Members to change their minds.
  MR. TULLYsaid he had been calling for a division all the evening, but no one would support him. This was a sham battle, and he hoped the Committee would be allowed to proceed to another clause.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  MR. HEMPHILLhad the following notice of Amendment on the Paper—
  "In page 35, line 19, at end, to insert the words 'and all Assistant Commissioners appointed under the said Act and holding office

  1611
  at the date of the passing of this Act as permanent civil servants of the Crown shall be entitled to have all their periods of service under the Land Commission, whether the same shall have been continuous or otherwise, taken into account for all purposes of superannuation allowance.'"
  *THE CHAIRMANsaid he had again considered the Amendment in the amended form in which the right hon. Gentleman proposed to move it, and he was still of opinion that if those gentlemen on whose behalf he was acting were civil servants, they came within the Superannuation Acts, and no Amendment was necessary. If they were not civil servants then the right hon Gentleman was proposing to extend the benefits of the Acts to gentlemen who did not comply with the conditions, thereby placing on the Exchequer a charge which he was not entitled to place upon it without having fortified himself with a Resolution of the House. The Amendment, therefore, would not be in order.
  MR. HEMPHILLhad also the following Amendment on the Paper:—
  "In page 35, line 19, at end, to insert the words 'And all Assistant Commissioners appointed under the said Act and holding office at the date of the passing of this Act as permanent civil servants of the Crown shall be entitled to have all their periods of service under the Land Commission, whether the same shall have been continuous or otherwise, taken into account for all purposes of superannuation allowance, and any Assistant Commissioner appointed on the permanent staff of the Land Committee under the Land Law (Ireland) Acts, who in the opinion of the Judicial Commissioner is fully competent to discharge his duties shall not be compelled to retire by reason only of having attained any age limit of the Civil Service, without prejudice to the power of the Lord Lieutenant by Order in Council to remove such Assistant Commissioner pursuant to section forty-three of the Land Law (Ireland) Act, 1881.'"
  *THE CHAIRMANsaid that this proposed Amendment was open to the same objection as the first. The right hon. Gentleman's proposal would amend the Superannuation Act in respect of these particular gentlemen. That would be outside the scope of this Bill; it would require a special Act.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 35, line 26, at end, to insert the words, '(4) The Right Honourable Frederick Stringer Wrench shall, if he is nominated as an Estates Commissioner, be paid, in addition to his present salary, a salary of £500 out of money provided by Parliament. (5) Murrough O'Brien, Esquire, one of the Land Commissioners, and the two Estates Commissioners appointed by His Majesty, shall be entitled to superannuation allowances in accordance with the provisions of the Superannuation Acts, 1834 to 1887.'"—(Mr. Wyndham.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  *MR. T. W. RUSSELLsaid the Chief Secretary had undertaken to in-quire if it were possible to find a method by which, without violating the Judicial Rules, the tenure of Mr. Finucane and Mr. Bailey could be made more secure than it was under the Bill?
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he could only effect that object when they came to the Report stage. He would then be prepared to move that the services of the Estates Commissioners, including Mr. Wrench, Mr. Bailey, and Mr, Finucane, could only be dispensed with by an Order in Council to be laid before Parliament.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid that that was a very considerable concession, and they ought to mark their sense of it by giving

  1613
  the Government the rest of the clauses. Question put, and agreed to.
  Clause 76, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 77 agreed to.
  Clause 78.
  *MR. BUTCHERsaid that his hon. and gallant friend the Member for Yarmouth had stated that the view of the landlords was that it would be much better to delete this part of the Bill, but that he had accepted the position1. Now, he was bound to say that the speech of the Chief Secretary had convinced him that the right hon. Gentleman had made with the Treasury the best bargain possible in the interests of both landlords and tenants. It was part of that bargain that the costs of the land fixing Courts should be reduced, and, to effect that, Clause 78 had been introduced. He had put down on the Paper an Amendment for the purpose of preserving the existing system, but, after the explanation of the Chief Secretary, he did not think it would be right that he should move it. He therefore begged leave to withdraw his Amendment—"In Clause 78, page 35, line 33, leave out 'appeal,' and insert 'apply for a rehearing.'"
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. CLANCYsaid he wanted to propose a proviso to the first sub-section of Clause 78, in the following terms—
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 35, line 34, at end, to add the words 'Provided that in the case of a holding the rateable value of which does not exceed £20, no appeal shall be allowed under this Act except on a question of law.'"—(Mr. Clancy.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there added."
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid that the hon. Member was perfectly at liberty to raise that point now, but he should prefer that the hon. Member raised it on Report.
  MR. CLANCYsaid there were so many matters left over for Report, that he proposed it with the object of obtaining the view of the Chief Secretary.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he could not give his view on an Amendment that he had not seen, even in manuscript.
  MR. CLANCYsaid he did not wish to obstruct progress, and he would withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 78, agreed to.
  Clauses 79 to 81 agreed to.
  Clause 82
  MR. TULLYsaid he thought that the definition of labourer in the clause, instead of being extended was rather restricted. He wished to move an Amendment to strike out the words "other than a domestic, or menial servant." He did not see why this invidious distinction should be brought in The effect of it would be very unfair and would greatly limit an application of the Labourers Acts. In the West and also in the North of Ireland these Acts were a

  1615
  dead letter until the Local Government Act came into force, when the people got some representation on the local authorities. With some amendment this section could be made a good working section, and he hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would also apply it to small towns. The labourers of Ireland were nearly as numerous a body as the tenant farmers, and he did not see why they should be deprived of the same legislation as the tenant farmers.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 37, line 15, to leave out the words other than a domestic or menial servant.'"—(Mr Tully.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
  And, it being Midnight, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again to-morrow.

  PUBLIC OFFICES (DUBLIN) (RE-COMMITTED) BILL.
  Considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment. Bill read the third time, and passed.
  DAY INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS (IRELAND) BILL.
  Read a second time, and committed for this day.
  GAS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 1) BILL [LORDS].
  Copy ordered, "of Memorandum stating the nature of the Proposals contained in the Provisional Orders included in the Gas Orders Confirmation (No. 1) Bill [Lords]."—(Mr. Bonar Law.)
  GAS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 2) BILL [LORDS.]
  Copy ordered, "of Memorandum stating the nature of the Proposals contained in the Provisional Orders included in the Gas Orders Confirmation (No. 2) Bill [Lords]."—(Mr. Bonar Law.)
  GAS AND WATER ORDERS CONFIRMATION BILL [LORDS].
  Copy ordered, "of Memorandum stating the nature of the Proposals contained in the Provisional Orders included in the Gas and Water Orders Confirmation Bill [Lords]."—(Mr. Bonar Law.)

  WATER ORDERS CONFIRMATION BILL [LORDS.]
  Copy ordered, "of Memorandum stating the nature of the Proposals contained in the Provisional Orders included in the Water Orders Confirmation Bill [Lords]."—(Mr. Bonar Law.)
  Adjourned at eight minutes after Twelve o'clock.