§ As amended, further considered.
(12.10.) MR. RIGG (Westmoreland,) Applebysaid the object of the Amendment he had to move was to provide for the selection of, at least, a majority of the education committee from the Popularly-elected body, the County Council, and for the co-optation of a minority from without, selected, not as representatives of associations and organisations, but on the ground of individual qualifications and merits. Seeing that the great powers 750 and duties vested by this Bill would be exercised by practically an unknown body, surely it was fair and reasonable to ask Parliament to clearly and properly define the exact composition of the body. During the debates they had contended for direct popular control of public money, and it was not asking much that half the education committee should be selected from a popularly-elected body. They were told the County Councils would select the education committee, but the Board of Eduaction had power to alter the proposals of County Councils, and secure, for certain organisations and interests, large influences on the education committee. Bodies so composed would have a tendency to be weak in initiative, and only have power and influence in resisting and retarding the progressive development of education. They would tend to be subservient to private interests, and to neglect and disregard the interests of the public. They would be tempted to avoid the expense of providing suitable schools, and be pressed to waste money by giving subsidies to institutions maintained to promote private and sectarian interests. Every well-regulated County Conucil had a committee of selection as the House of Commons had, and they should trust the Country Councils as the education authorities. The Amendment would provide for a minority added by a popularly elected authority for advice and assistance, appointed for their expert knowledge as teachers, as persons having practical experience, and who had done valued work. It would give sufficient power for expert representation, and be distinctly preferable to the system under which persons would be nominated by vested interests for the protection of vested interest against public interest. The education committee might consist entirely of outsiders. There need not be a single member of the County Council upon it, but it could not consist exclusively of members of the Council. There should, at any rate, be genuine co-optation by the County Counil. During the fourteen years the County Councils had been in existence, they had shown an independence and an intelligence which would justify us in giving them the free, unfettered selection of the education committee. If the Bill became law, the Council would have few educational functions, the only permanent duty being 751 to levy rates at the bidding of a body largely nominated by organisations not subject to the ratepayers. These bodies would be free from the healthy, stimulating influence of direct popular election, and be free from the effective control now exercised by the Board of Education. It was unwise to encourage competition between the various societies and associations for representation, and for seats on the education authority. The system of the Bill would diminish the popular voice, allow vested interests to entrench themselves in the education authority, it would be productive of interminable conflict of sectarian strife, and not make for the public good and for the interests of education as a whole.
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 9, line 14, to leave out the words from the word 'committees,' to the end of the Clause, and insert the words 'consisting of members of the Council who shall have power to co-opt other persons of both sexes to serve on such education committee or committees, but the total number of such co-opted members shall be less than half the total number of members, and any Council may delegate to such committee such of its powers as it thinks fit."—(Mr. Rigg).
§ Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out to the word 'and,' in line 15, stand part of the Bill."
§ * MR. SAMUEL ROBERTS () Sheffield, Ecclesallsaid he had only been elected a Member of the House during the present year, since the introduction of the Education Bill in the king's Speech, and he had not ventured to express any opinion about it. He did not want to add to the floods of oratory which had wearied Members on both sides of the House, but for a few moments he asked indulgence while he put before them a short point of view with regard to the large county boroughs. What was the best way of composing these education committees, and of working them from the large city point of view? He thought the object of the Bill was to find what was the best educational machine. The beauty, in his opinion, of the Government plan was that there was a certain amount of elasticity about it. Clause18, asamended by the Committee, left it almost entirely to the local authority to say how the education committee should be composed, and he thought rightly so, because one 752 place differed from another in its requirements. He was going to speak in a moment as to the large amount of work which the large Corporations of England had at the present moment to do, and he thought one of the strongest arguments from the other side of the House was that these large corporations had as much as they could do—and his object in speaking against the Amendment was to try and confirm the Government scheme of giving elasticity, and of allowing the large corporations to appoint their committee as they thought best, and not to compel them to have a majority of their own members on that committee. Perhaps he might speak with some little authority. He had had the honour of a seat on the Sheffield Corporation for the last fifteen years, and he had only just retired from the Corporation with reluctance, owing to his inability to attend to his duties in the House and his duties there. He had had the honour of being Lord Mayor three years ago, and during that year he attended almost all the meetings of the committees and of the Council, and those Members who were acquainted with the working of our large cities would know the work had increased enormously of late years. During the last ten or fifteen years Sheffield had acquired large revenue-producing undertakings, and other large cities had done the same—gas, water, electric light, tramways, markets, increasing the work of these Corporations immensely. He did not think he was overstating it if he said that the work had doubled, but the individual personnel of these Councils had not doubled. It remained pretty much as it had been for a long period, and in some of the large Corporations the numbers stood as at first named in their charters of incorporation. He had before him a list of ten of the large cities of England, in which the numbers of the Corpotations varied from 64 to 112. He believed that in Liverpool they had been slightly increased lately—he did not know whether any of the Members for Liverpool were in the House—but they had 112, Manchester had 110, Birmingham 72, Leeds, Sheffield, Leicester, 64, and so on. In some way or another the work of these large Corporations must be relieved—and he believed the proper way was by co-opting, by allowing them to form these educational committees in 753 the way that seemed to them to make the best working machine for their own place. There was another way in which they could relieve the tension, and that was by delegation. The Amendment dealt with that subject, as also did the Government Clause, and they wanted to make use of that system of delegation. They wanted to avail themselves of the services of those who had done such valuable work on our Schools Boards. He wanted to admit to the fullest extent the most valuable work these gentlemen had been doing. They did not want to lose the services of these gentlemen, they wanted to retain their sevices, and in his opinion the best way to do so was to delegate, so far as they could, the power of the local authority to the education committees. There was a gentleman who was well known to the Education Department in London, who had been sent for from the city of Sheffield to have his advice given to them. He had been chairman of the School Board, had done most excellent work, and had joined both parties together with the best results. That gentleman, unfortunately, was leaving, but he had written to ask him his opinion of what would be the result of co-opting members, and then only taking them as advisers, and not allowing them any kind of administrative power, and the reply was—
The confirmation or rejection of the education committee's minutes month by month, however delightful in theory, I am afraid would be unworkable. It would rob the education committees of all proper sense of responsibility, and co-opted members would find their position unbearable, and would eventually decline to act. I think the education committee should present its budget to the Council half-yearly, seek its sanction for its main provisions, and be dependent on its concurrence for its authority. But if the budget was accepted by the Council the committee should have a perfectly free hand in all matters of administration, reporting for information only to the Council its proceedings.It might be said that if delegation to that extent were adopted the Council would not be carrying out its duty, and would lose touch with what was going on. He did not think so, because the education committee would be appointed annually in the same way as the other committees of the Corporation. Of course it depended upon what scheme was adopted, but if this committee was elected annually, as in his opinion it 754 must be, surely that was sufficiently keeping in touch with the work of that committee. They could not spend more money than the Corporation approved of, because the estimates came before the Council, and if they did anything that the Council did not approve of, the Council had its remedy the next November by appointing another committee. He must thank the Houst for the very kind way in which they had listened to him. He was sorry to have to oppose the Amendment, but he must do so as a matter of duty, and he hoped he might urgo on the Secretary to the Board of Education that he would adhere loyally to the scheme of the Bill, which gave elasticity to the Corporations.
§ MR. EMMOTT () Oldhamsaid he would like to congratulate his hon. friend the member for the Appleby Division on having at last successfully broken the silence he had so long maintained. The hon. Member for the Ecclesall Division had dealt with a very interesting question — viz., whether co-opted members chosen by the Council would have a thoroughly free hand and be able to work for the views which they held. He fully admitted that there was a danger of the co-poted members feeling that they had not a free hand to carry out their own educational views. He was speaking of what had been the experience in connection with certain corporations he could name, though he was not allowed to do so. In those cases co-opted members had felt that they were rather too much the servants of the Council, and that was the reason why he had always been in favour of making it a statutory obligation that the majority of the members of the committee should be members also of the Council. He knew that that was the wish of the Government and that it would be carried out, but he did believe it was necessary that the majority of the committee should be members of the Council. He agreed with the hon. Member who moved the Amendment that it was desirable the Council should have a little more freedom than it had under the Clause as it stood. He agreed with the desire that the Council should be tied down to appoint a majority of its members on the committee. But he must remind the House that there was a considerable 755 difference between the councils which would have to appoint the committees or make schemes for them. There were the big councils and big county boroughs which might probably be absolutely trusted in the matter, but then there were also some smaller county boroughs which he thought might obtain some advantage in drawing up their schemes from the friendly assistance of the Board of Education. He could not vote for the Amendment as if stood, because he did not want to strike out the whole of the Clause. There were a number of provisions in the Clause which he wished to see retained. For instance, there was the statutory obligation that women should be members of the committee; there was the sub-Section dealing with the exclusion of those who held offices of profit under the Corporation or under the committee, and there were the sub-Sections as to the desirability of appointing members of the present School Boards, with separate and joint committees. He therefore urged his hon. friend to withdraw the Amendment and to allow the question to be further discussed on the Amendent standing in the name of the right hon. baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean, or on that of the hon. Member for Rugby.
§ * (12.30.) THE SECRETARY OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Sir WILLIAM ANSON,) Oxford Universitysaid he would state as briefly as possible the reson why the Government could not accept the Amendment so clearly put before them by the hon. Member for the Appleby Division. That reason was that the Amendment proposed to destroy the machinery for the constitution of those committees which was settled not long ago by the House after full debate. The Government thought that this machinery was, on the whole, the best that could be devised for collecting the educational interest and the intelligence of an area on behalf of the local education authority, and in bringing to bear such assistance as the Board of Education could give in finally framing a satisfactory scheme. It had been suggested that the County council ought to be required to place upon its committee a majority of their own members, and it was even suggested that if they had any latitude in this respect the result might be that no single member of the County 756 Council would be placed on these committees. Personally he had no fear that the County Councils and the local education authorities would so far depart from their duty as to be unwilling to accent a responsibility in this important matter, and, by declining to take part in the deliberations of the education committee, throw the whole burden of responsibility of giving the advice on which they must act for the educational purposes of their area on a body on which they were not themselves represented. He had no doubt that the County Councils would take their full share of the duties which it was proposed to throw upon them, and for the reasons set forth by the hon. Member for the Ecclesall Division, he did not think it was fair to put pressure upon them, to fetter their discretion in the matter, by saying that there must necessarily be an absolute majority of their own members. The Government had clearly indicated in the Bill that their wish—and he believed it was also the wish of the House—would be that there should be such a majority; and inasmuch as the County Council could only decide that there should be less than a majority by a deliberate vote, he thought there were sufficient safeguards to secure that it should be adequately and fully represented on any committee. The Government had given the County Councils full power of delegation, and that power they might exercise as they pleased. Their relations with the education committee would be determined by themselves. The budget of the education committee for example, would be considered at such times and seasons as they thought proper, but the ultimate responsibility must rest with them for whatever powers they conferred on the education committee, they were responsible because they were the final financial authority of the area, and they were responsible to the ratepayers for carrying out the recommendations of the education committee The Clause, the Government thought, fairly represented the relations which ought to subsist between the local education authority and the education committee, and under the circumstances they could not accept the Amendment.
§ * MR. CHANNING () Northamptonshire, E.said the main point of his hon. friend's Amendment was the assertion that the majority of the members of the local committee should be really representative of and responsible to the people of the served, whether borough or country. With that object he thoroughly sympathised, and if the Amendment were pressed he should vote for it. But the Amendment would have to be supplemented by further machinery to provide the working basis which was desired. He was greatly struck by the able speech of the hon. Member for the able speech of the hon. Member for the Ecclesall Dicision, who had had long practical experience in the work of that great municipality, and who advanced from the facts of the case very strong arguments which might be used, not only against the principle of the Amendment, but also, it appeared to him, against the principle of the Clause, for he asserted that many Councils already had too much work to do, and that thanks to the entrance of municipalities into various fields of administration and constructive work for the welfare of the people, their duties were rapidly increasing. That argument might be pressed a good deal further than it was. It logically led up to the system which obtained in many great cities in the United States, where the Town Council was the central body responsible for the financial machinery of the work of the education in its district; and, following out the idea suggested by the hon. Member, the Town Council either directly or through the Mayor appointed a Board of Education, specially chosen solely for one object of education, to deal with the administrative work for all grades of classes and schools. If such a system could be introduced here he would pefer it to the procedure of the Bill. As matters stood he was disposed to support the Amendment, however, because it asserted the principle of direct responsibility on the part of the majority of the education committee to the ratepayers electing the Town or County Council. But if they could have the American system, either in the form of the direct responsibility of a body appointed by the Town or County Council wholly devoted to educational purposes, or, still better, in a directly 758 elected body like the School Board, that would be an infinitely better solution.
§ MR. HENRY HOBHOUSE (Somersetshire, E.)said he wished to state the opinion of the County Councils on this Clause, so far as it was expressed at a very large meeting of the executive of their association on Wednesday last. As far as he could ascertain, the County Councils had no objection to the proposed addition of experts nor to the scheme being framed for the committees. He should be sorry to see the scheme of the Government materially modified, as proposed by the Amendment. The County Councils, however, almost unanimously objected to the scheme of the Government on the ground of its element of compulsion in respect of nomination by outside bodies. To meet the objection some of his hon. friends had put down Amendments to add the words "desirable to the Council." Let the Government consider what would happen if they insisted on retaining this compulsory element. It was practically certain that many Coulcils, some of them the most important and influential, would send up schemes not containing a power of nomination to any outside body, but containing a list of representative men and women whom they deemed it desirable to appoint. Were the Government going to insist that in every one of those schemes there should be a power of nomination given to certain outside bodies? If it was not intended to insist, then the Government ought to accept the proposed modification, but if it was intended to insist, then it would be necessary to introduce a Provisional Order Bill giving the power of nomination to outside bodies. The County Councils would undoubtedly resist its passing. The matter would be debated on the floor of the House, the Bill would go to a Private Bill Committee upstairs, and it would be left to that Committee to say what was desirable. What, he would like to ask, would be the position of those nominees when they came to sit on the education committee, having been put on against the will of the County Council? Surely it would be neither so satisfactory nor influential as if they had been willingly co-opted by the Council. They would be put on as the representatives of particular 759 interests, and would confine their attention to the point of view of the body which put them on. He could conceive nothing more likely to inspire a spitit of jealousy between the committee and the Council than the fact that some members were put on by outside bodies against the will of the Council. It would be most unfortunate if such a spirit of jealousy were created. He begged the Government, in the interests of the harmonious working of these institutions, to consider the almost unanimous view of these county bodies in this matter—a view in which the county boroughs very much coincided.
§ MR. BRYCE () Aberdeen, S.said his hon. friend had stated with great moderation what they felt to be the fundamental objections to the scheme contatined in the Clause. One of these was the enormous amount of work which would be entailed on the Councils, whose time was already so fully occcupied. No one who knew anything of what that work was could fail to see that this was a very hazardous experiment. Another objection was that these bodies, as it was proposed to constitute them, would not spring from the people—they would not be popularly-elected, and would not feel themselves directly responsible to the people. The answer made was that the County and Borough Councils would be responsible for the spending of the money, although it would be able to delegate its administrative duties to the committee. But the difficulty of that was that the responsibility of the Council would be a responisibility without knowledge. The business would be so heavy and so detailed that it would be quite impossible for a body like a county or Borough Council to keep in touch with it, and therefore, when it came to review the proceedings of the comittee, it would either have to confirm the work of the committee without sufficient inquity, or it would have to reinvestigate all questions from the very beginning. They had contiunally raised that difficulty, and he doubted if even yet the Government appreciated the importance of it. These considerations would dispose him to vote for the Amentdment, but he was bound to admit that it cut out a great deal that might well be retained, and no that ground he 760 supported the suggestion of the hon. Member for Oldham, that it should be withdrawn. He regarded the scheme of the Clause as good in so far as it permitted variety of play to meet the conditions of different counties and boroughs, but as regarded that part which gave power to the Board of Education to put on representatives of interests against the will of the County Council, there was much weight in the objections urged by the right hon. Member for East Somerset. It was all very well to say that the councils had the duty of drawing up schemes in the first instance, but, after all, the man who had the last word was the man who prevailed. Here the last word was given to the Board of Edcation, and the Government could force through any scheme which the Board of Education confirmed. He felt that the nominees of outside bodies might come in, not asrepresenting the people or the interests of education, but as representing all kinds of schools, or, perhaps, particular denominations. The would not be animated by a general zeal for education, or else that general zeal would have only a secondary place with them, and above everything else they would be the champions of their own particular interests. He hoped, therefore, that in the last hour of the last day the Government would reconsider their position in the matter, and would abandon the proposal enabling the Board of Education to put on the committee people against the will of the Council. He was sure that if the Councils were convinced by the arguments of the Board of Education that there was a bona fide case made out for giving representation to certain interests, their public spirit would induce them to assent to any proposal of that kind, and there would be consequently no need for compulsion. The system as it stood had not in it the elements of permanency. He feared that it would be found necessary in a very short time to amend it. The only way in which the system would work was by a large devolution of the powers from the eduction committee to sub-committees, and the more that was done the more would there be a departure from the original intention of the Bill and from the principle of popular responsibility.
§ * (1.5) SIR FRANCIS POWELL () Wiganhoped that the House would allow him 761 to say a few words on this subject, which was one of deep interest to all interested in the practical work of education. He highly valued this Clause, because it gave both variety and elasticity. It gave variety to meet the wants of various places, and it gave elasticity because there was power to modify a scheme as new conditions arose and new circumstances occurred. He was sure that any system of a cast-iron character would be inadequate, and that legislation would be required at an early date in order to make this new system in accordance with the requirements of the age. He did not himself feel any danger whatever of gentleman or ladies elected from the outside advocating any particular interest. In the West Riding of Yorkshire he was a member of some of the most important grammmar school authorities. They had representatives from the University of Cambridge and other bodies, and they had not found the slightest difficulty arising from the composite character of these bodies. These represensatives brought to bear high culture, and members representing other districts brought their knowledge of agriculture and commerce, and so on through the whole field; and he was perfectly sure, having had long experience of these bodies, that they would not wish to push any particular interest. The Report of the late Secondary Education Commission distinctly recommended appointments from outside. Among those to whom they desired to give the power of appointment was th central authority. The great corporations of Liverpool and Manchester had committees of various kinds. These committees went through details with the most minute care, and he believed that these great corporations, having trust in the committees as regarded details, found their confidence in that trust was not misplaced. The system worked admirably in the great coporations of Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield, and Bradford, and if it had been found to work admirably in these cases it would not be less satisfactory in the case of education. They had already had experience, because the great County Councils—he was speaking of personal knowledge—of Lancashire and Yorkshire, 762 through their technical instruction committees, had dealt with a great variety of detail. The conduct of details was entrusted to the committees, and the committees executed their work with wonderful diligence and skill, and the result had been eminently satisfactory. He hoped that the decision of the House would be in conformity with what he believed to be a useful and comprehensive Clause.
§ * SIR CHARLES DILKE () Gloucestershire, Forest of Deansaid all must agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Aberdeen that the position of members co-opted against the will of the Council on bodies like the education committees would be far from being satisfactory. The case was indeed much stronger than it had been put by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Somerset. Co-opted members on these bodies were always subjected to attack on occasions when they interfered in matters which could possibly involve the expenditure of the ratepayers' money and told they were not entitled to speak. The House had been placed in a position of extraordinary embarrassment by the changes which had been made in the Bill since it was first introduced. The substitution of the word "Council" for "eductaion authority" in many parts of the Bill had altered the original scheme of the Bill, which was that the committee should be hte local education authority. [Mr. BALFOUR dissented.] Then what was the meaning of the change? He thought it was an almost charitable explanation of the extraordinary complexity of the Clause. He would not, however, further press that point. But the part of the Clause which seemed to him more desrving of censure was that which related to the schemes. The new County Councils—the first under the operation of the Education Bill—would not be elected before March twelve months. Therefore these schemes would be approved by the Board of Education and pushed through before County Councils with a mandate under the Education Bill came into existence. That to him was the great objection to the proposed schemes—they would be carried behind the backs of the people before the people were given a chance of expressing their opinions with regard to them. The 763 democratic side of the Bill was destroyed by that plan, for the schemes would be established behind the backs of the electors before they had an opportunity of pronouncing an opinion on them.
§ MR. STUART WORTLEY () Sheffield, Hallamsaid the Amendment of the hon. Member for the Appleby Division referred to both portions of the proposed education committee—the non co-opted part as well as the co-opted part—and therefore they had to glance at those parts of the Bill which the Amendment would displace. As regarded the co-opted part, the Bill provided that members brought in under the scheme of nomination by outside bodies should be appointed by the Council. All along he had had great doubts as to the meaning of these words. The words, "for the appointment by the Council on the nomination, where it appears desirable, of other bodies of persons of experience in education," either meant that the Council was to have an option of rejection or they meant nothing. He hoped there would be an opportunity later on of having that point cleared up. As regarded the non-co-opted part, it must be put on record at this stage that the present Amendment, if accepted, would make the discretion of the County and City Councils less than it was under the Bill. Hon. Gentlemen opposite argued as if the Bill was to compel the County and City Council to elect persons on the non-co-opted part of the committee who were not members of the Council itself. Nothing of he kind existed. The only question was whether the option of going outside the Council, or being conpelled to elect councillors, and councillors only, should be decided at Westminster or entrusted to the Councils. He thought the Opposition ought to show more confidence in these Councils.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGE (Carnarvon Boroughs)said that unless the right hon. Gentleman intended to support the Amendment, his last words constituted a very extraordinary conclusion of his speech, for the whole contention of the Opposition was that confidence should be placed in the Councils; that they should be allowed to prepare their own schemes, select their own committees, and not be compelled to put upon them 764 the nominees of outside bodies. There had been a considerable change of attitude by the Government with regard to these committees since the Bill was originally drafted, and a change, he thought, for the better. At first it was proposed to set up an independent statutory committee, more or less on the lines of the Welsh governing bodies. They were to be the real authority, and the County Council was only to have the power of nomination and probably the preparation of the scheme. But now the County Council was to be the real authority; it would have the power of revoking or rejecting any of the proposals made to it by the committee. That surely made a great difference in the question of the powers of the Council in regard to the appointment of the committee. He thought there was great force in what had fallen from the right hon. Member for East Somerset. It was one thing to leave it to the Council to co-opt experts, and to invite the assistance of representatives of other bodies, but it was quite another matter to force these men on the Council. He thought they mignt even now reconsider their attitude, and leave it to the Councils to select their own committees. He believed that they would carry out the general idea of the Government by inviting the assistance of educational experts. But to force them to do that would do a great deal of harm. If the Government declined to give way to that extent, why should they not confine the selection of members to other elective bodies, such a the Parish Council, representing portions of the same body of ratepayers? It was, no doubt, intended that representatives of denominational schools should be on the committees. That, he thought, was very unfair, because the supporters of voluntary schools would have also to deal with the provided schools, and would thus have a double representation on the committee. Let the County Councils have a free hand with the constitution of the committee. They would not be likely to choose men all of one colour or political complexion. The Welsh County Councils were supposed to be very partisan by people who did not know them, but almost without exception they had given the Conservative minority proportionate 765 representation on the aldermanic bodies, and he believed that, acting on the same principle, the Councils, in appointing the education committees, would see that the interests of vouluntaryism were adeqately represented. After all, he believed that three-fourths of the existing Councils contained a majority of Conservatives, and surely the Government ought to feel able to trust them to deal with these matters.
§ MR. ERNEST GRAY () West Ham, N.said that the main difference between the proposal of the Government and the Amendment was that the Government scheme was mandatory, while the Amendment was permissive. Under the Bill of 1896 co-optation was to be permissive, and the strongest objection was then raised in all quarters of the House, and outside as well, many Amendments being put down to substitute "shall" for "may." He was surprised that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Somerset supported the Amendment.
§ MR. HENRY HOBHOUSEI did not support it.
§ MR. ERNEST GRAYsaid he was glad to hear that. He only heard a portion of the right hon. Gentleman's speech. What he wanted to point out was that County Councils had power now to co-opt outside persons to serve on technical committees, but the majority of councils had kept the work entirely in their own hands. He strongly supported the Government scheme, because it secured that the two elements, common-sense and expert knowledge, would always be combined on these committees. Judging from the experience of the last ten years large numbers of County Councils would decline or neglect to co-opt, and thus they would lose the valuable aid of men interested in educational work, which he hoped would be forthcoming if the Clause as it now stood were adhered to. It was suggested that there was strong objection to the Government scheme on the ground that the persons nominated by the various organisations would act solely in the interests of those organisations; that they would represent a small section only of the community, and would not have the interests of the county at heart. He was to sure that the Amendment was not open to the same objection, and he had 766 a strong suspicion that it had originated in the council of a small organisation, and had not been submitted to the general electorate of that council. The persons representing educational organisations would also represent a large section of the community interested in the work. It appeared to him that there were two very strong objections to this Amendment. In the first place it came forward very late in the day and was an entire reversion of the Government scheme; and in the second place, leaving the power in the hands of the authorities without compelling them to exercise it, would cause a loss which the Government proposal avoided—that was, the loss of the expert knowledge which the county governing bodies had secured in Wales, and which he trusted would be secured by the county governing bodies in this country. There was no section of this Bill which commanded his support more strongly than this proposal that the variors county authorities should proceed by schemes. Having regard to the educational work in various parts of the country, it was essentioal that Parliament should avoid imposing upon every area exactly the same system. Rigidity was almost impossible, and would mean years of loss to educational work. The various localities should frame their schemes, complying only with the general lines laid down by Parliament, and the Government proposes to put into their hands power whereby Dorset might frame a scheme for that county, and Birmingham might frame one slightly on different lines more suitale to educatin of a progressive character. There was elasticity by this plan which would make for the advancement of education. Recognising that there must be elasticity in local action, he asked—were they likely to inprove matters by adopting the Amendment before the House? The Government plan was the scheme which had been carried out for years by the London County Council. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge Uiversity had described the scheme practised by the London County Council. The Technical Committee of that body consisted of twenty members, fifteen of them being co-opted from the various educational and trade organisations. Those organisations had some knowledge of the needs of the schools, and power was given to them to submit to the 767 County Council the names of suitable persons to serve upon the Technical Committee. The London County Council could take those nominations and appoint them, or they had power to refer them back for more suitable names. He did not know what was the exact legal effect of the words "for appointment on the nomination of." Did those words imply that the County Council had the right to refuse those particular persons? If not, the words were unnecessary and misleading. He had always read this Clause to mean that when the scheme was prepared, the County Council would set forth in the scheme the names of the persons nominated by the various local organisations who, in their opinion, should be entrusted with the right of nominating persons. That scheme would be sent up to the Board of Education, and what would take place? What had been the experience of the last few years? The Board of Education in case of disputes would make suggestions to the local authority which they would accept in most of the cases. They might be able to show good grounds for not including some particular organisation, and where they could show good cause, the Board of Education would very rarely insist, only when there was an obvious intention to exclude some organisation which deserved recognition; and only in such cases would the Board of Education insist, and they should have this power to insist. That was insistence on the right to nominate and not to appoint a particular individual. In the interests of educational work throughout the country he felt bound to give the Government scheme his most cordial support as against the Amendment, although he should be glad to know what was the exact signification of the words "for appointment by the Council on the nomination, where it appears desirable, of other bodies." It ought to be made clear that in case an organisation set up an objectionable person the Council could refuse to accept that particular nomination. At the end of three years the same organisations might submit other persons for nomination, and he wished to know if the Council could reject those individuals if they desired, and could they ask the various organisations to reconsider their nominations? If the Council had not this power, other persons might be placed upon the committee to whom the Council 768 might have the strongest objection, and who might go to the committee with the intention of making themselves disagreeable, and producing a deadlock which would cause very serious injury to the schools. If the County Council had the right to reject an individual nomination and complete power of appointment, which also implied power of objection, then, to his mind, the House would be well advised in accepting the Government scheme as a whole.
§ (1.40.) SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT () Monmouthshire, W.said the hon. Member opposite had raised some very serious points upon the present framework of the Bill. Two of them were worthy of attention. First of all, the hon. Member had assumed that there would be many County Councils who would not appoint any outsiders at all. He did not know upon what grounds that expectation was founded. Certainly his experience in the matter in regard to technical education committees had been in the opposite direction. By this proposal the Government were forcing outsiders on to the County Council against their will, and he asked was such a system likely to work well? He should have thought that such a proposal would have been fatal to the working of the Bill. He thought County Councils generally would be only too happy to co-opt members who were experieneced in educational matters, but they were now forcing upon the education authority a constitution which they disliked and which they would be very likely to resist. Thus there would be at once friction between the County Council and the Education Department, who would probably force upon them persons whom they disliked. That was not a very promising prospect for starting this Education Bill. He was disposed to agree with the contention of the hon. Member for North-West Ham in regard to the words "appoint on the nomination." That made the provision still less agreeable, because if they were to appoint on the nomination of outside bodies, and if they had no voice whatever in the appointment of the person so nominated, this was likely to be very much resented, and it would make the working of the Bill much more difficult. They ought to have it made clear what was the meaning of those words. There ought to be an 769 Amendment to get rid of the awkward term "nomination," and he suggested the word "recommendation." Perhaps that word would be less offensive. He agreed that nothing would be more likely to cause friction than the fact that these outside bodies, who would have nothing in common with the Council, should be allowed to nominate strangers to the county and strangers to the body with whom they would have to work. By this means they would be importing into the executive committee of these bodies individuals who would be looked askance at by those whom they had to join on the committee. If that was true as to co-optation generally, it would also apply to the nominees of denominational bodies. The hon. Member for North West Ham had truly said that the denominational nominees put on these committees against the desire of the County Council might make the working of the Bill entirely incongruous and inharmonious. Therefore, the House ought to have a distinct answer from the Government as to what under these words was the choice to be left to the County Council with regard to the individuals, both when put on the Committee against their wish and when put there without their consent. If these members were found not to work well with the County Council, would there be any power to remove them, or would they be fixed there against the will of the County Council, however ill they might work with them? That was a thing the House ought to understand. Another point raised by his right hon. friend the Member for Forest of Dean, was extremely important. They ought to be told definitely how long these schemes were to last. The schemes would be framed by the County Councils elected before the passing of this Bill. In two years from this time there would be County Councils constituted with a full knowledge of the Bill as it was working. Would these Councils have power to present new schemes if they thougt fit? Unless they had power to come to the Education Department and ask approval of a new scheme in lieu of one which had not worked well there might be perpetual warfare in the education committee, and the County Council would be powerlewss to place it on a footing which would be workable.
§ * MR. KEMP () Lancashire, Heywoodsaid he was most anxious that this Bill should work well, and he hoped the Government might accept the principle of this Amendment so as to avoid friction on the County Councils. The Executive Committee of the County Councils Association decided the other day that they did not wish to have members forced on these committees against their will. He believed that if they had those members forced on the committee contrary to their will it would give the greatest trouble in the County Council and the greatest dissatisfaction among the electors. He had had some experience of County Council. He sat on the Lancashire County Council for three years, and on the Technical Education Committee, and he knew they would resent most strongly any forcing of their powers. Why not trust the County Councils? They had worked admirably well, and if the Government now said that they dare not trust the County Councils, it looked at any rate as if there were something behind the action of the Government which would not bear the light of day. He was anxious that the co-opted members should have the greatest force and stength in the committee, but if they were to be on the committee contrary to the wish of the County Council they would lose the value as educational experts which they would otherwise have. From time to time subjects would arise of a controversial nature, and the coopted members would naturally give their votes on the side to which they were partisan. If the members of the committee found that they were outvoted on one of these important controversial questions by the co-opted members, and especially if they were on the committee contrary to the will of the County Council, they would be filled with indignation, and this would cause friction which would materially impair the work. He therefore hoped the Government would see their way to introduce the principle of the County Council having the right to choose what members they should co-opt on these committees.
§ MR. BRIGG () Yorkshire, W. R., Keighleysaid that when this question was 771 formerly debated, the Prime Minister stated that it was necessary that these proposals should be put into the scheme, and that the scheme itself should be submitted to the local authority. He certainly expected to see some solution of the question brought before the House to-day by the Government, but apparently that was not to be done. It would have been the simplest matter possible to have inserted words for that purpose in sub-Section (b). If that were done he thought it would form a satisfactory solution of the question. He hoped the Prime Minister would re-consider this matter.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ * SIR CHARLES DILKE () Gloucestershire, Forest of Deanmoved to leave out from "committees" in line 14 to "Provided" in line 16 of Clause 18. He had already stated his views on this Amendment and he did not mean to repeat them. He wished, however, to repeat the question asked by his right hon. friend the Member for West Monmouth, namely, what would happen in regard to a scheme to which there was a good deal of objection? Would the incoming Council, after the electorate had been consulted on the subject, have power to present another scheme for the approval of the Board of Education?
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 9, line 14, to leave out the words from the word 'Committees' to the word 'Provided,' in line16."—(Sir Charles Dilke.)
§ Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out to the word 'and,' in line 15, stand part of the Bill,"
772§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir ROBERT FINLAY, Inverness Burghs)said that this matter was dealt with in Clause 16, sub-Section 3.
§ THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,) Manchester, E.said this Amendment was really more or less dealt with in the debate they had just had. He thought the question was admirably met by the Clause referred to by his hon. and learned friend the Attorney General. The sub-Section gave the County Council power to introduce a scheme if new circumstances had arisen rendering it desirable to make a change on the original proposals. He trusted the right hon. Gentleman would see that it was not necessary to divide the House on this question.
§ MR. BRYCEsaid that, although the words were susceptible of the meaning that the County Council might initiate a scheme, they ought to have distinctly implied that the initiation of the scheme lay with the County Council. It should be made perfectly clear that it was open to the County Council to propose a new scheme at any moment. He should have thought that it would have been a great deal better to have postponed the creation of schemes until the new County Councillors were elected and had had plenty of time to consider the question.
§ (2.0.) Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 143; Noes, 62. (Division List No. 593.) (2.10.)
773| AYES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Dalrymple, Sir Charles |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Campbell, RtHn. J. A.(Glasgow | Denny, Colonel |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Carew, James Laurence | Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph |
| Austin, Sir John | Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. |
| Bain, Col. Hames Robert | Cavaendish, V. C. W.(Derbyshire) | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers |
| Balcarres, Lord | Chamberlain, RtHnJ. A.(Wore. | Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J.(Manch'r | Chapman, Edward | Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B.(Hornsey) | Clive, Captain Percy A. | Fardell, Sir T. George |
| Balfour, RtHnGeraldW.(Leeds | Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. | Coghill, Douglas Harry | Fergusson, Rt. Hn. SirJ.(Mane'r |
| Bartley, Sir George C. T. | Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannaryne |
| Bignold, Arthur | Cox, IrwinEdward Bainbridge | Fisher, William Hayes |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Cranborn, Viscount | Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon |
| Bond, Edward | Crossley, Sir Savile | Flower, Ernest |
| Brassey, Albert | Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Forster, Henry William |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Dalkeith, Earl of | Galloway, William Johnson |
| Gardner, Ernest | Macdona, John Cumming | Rutherford, John |
| Garfit, William | M'lver, SirLewis(EdinburghW | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans | Malcohn, lan | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) |
| Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Maxwell, W. J. H.(Dumfriessh. | Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J. |
| Gordon, MajEvans-(T'rH'ml'ts | Meysey-Thomposn, Sir H. M. | Seely, Maj. J. E. B.(Isleof Wight |
| Goschen, Hon. GeorgeJcachim | More, Robt. Jasper(Shropshire) | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Morgan, DavidJ.(Walth'mstow | Smith, James parker(Lanarks. |
| Graham, Henry Robert | Morrison, James Archibald | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | Spear, John Ward |
| Greville, Hon. Ronald | Mount, William Arthur | Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich) |
| Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Asf'rd | Murray, RtHnA. Graham(Bute | Stewaet. SirMark J. M'Taggart |
| Hare, Thomas Leigh | Murray, Col. Wyndham(Bath) | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier |
| Harris, Frederick Leverton | Nicholson, William Graham | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Healy, Timothy Michael | Nicol, Donald Niniam | Talbot, RtHn. J. G.(Oxf'd Univ. |
| Hobhouse, RtHnH(Somerse, E | Nolan, Col. JohnP. (Galway, N. | Thompson, DrEC(Monagh'n, N |
| Hope, J. F.(Sheffield, Brightside | O'Doherty, William | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Horner, Frederick William | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | Tully, Jasper |
| Howard John(Kent, Faversh'm | Parkes, Ebenezer | Valentia, Viscount |
| Kemp, George | Pemberton, John S. G. | Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E.(Taunton |
| Kennaway, Rt. Hn. SirJohn H. | Perey, Earl | Whiteley, H(Ashton-und-Lyne |
| Kennedy, Patrick James | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
| Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W.(Salop. | Purvis, Robert | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R.(Bath) |
| Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Rankin, Sir James | Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson |
| Lawson, John Grant | Reid, James (Greenoek) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart. |
| Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Remnant, James Farwquharson | Wrogjtson, Sir Thomas |
| Leveson-Gower, FrederickN. S. | Renshow, Sir Charles Bine | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Lorder, Gorald Walter Erskine | Renshaw, Sir Chas. Thomson | Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. |
| Long, Col. CharlesW.(Evesham | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) | |
| Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S. | Rollestion, Sir John F. L | |
| Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland Hood and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Lucas, ReginaldJ.(Portsmouth | Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter | |
| Macartney. Rt. HnW. G. Ellison | Royds, Clement Molyneux | |
| NOES. | ||
| Allan, Sir William (Gateshead) | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas, Seale- | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) |
| Black, Alexander William | Holland, Sir William Henry | Soames, Arthur Well-sley |
| Brigg, John | Hornimau, Frederick John | Spencer, RtHn. C. R.(Northants |
| Bryee, Rt. Hon. James | Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E. |
| Caldwell, James | Jacoby, James Alfred | Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr |
| Cameron, Robert | Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea | Thomas, JA(Glamorgan, Gower |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Langley, Batty | Tomkinson, James |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Toulmin, George |
| Craig, Robert Hunter | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Ure, Alexander |
| Cremer, William Randal | Lloyd-George, David | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Markham, Arthur Basil | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen) | Wason, Eugene |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Newnes, Sir George | Weir, James Galloway |
| Ellis, John Edward | Paulton, James Mellor | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Emmott, Alfred | Philipps, John Wynford | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Price, Robert John | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Fuller, J. M. F. | Rea, Russell | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hn. HerbertJohn | Rigg, Richard | |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Sir Charles Dilke and Mr. Allen. |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William | Shackleton, David James | |
| Hardie, J. Keir(MerthyrTydvil | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
§ (2.40.) Amendment proposed to the Bill—
§ "In Clause 18, page 9, line 19, leave out 'appoint,' and insert 'establish.'"—(Sir William Anson.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ * MR. YOXALL () Nottingham, W.said the object of his Amendment was to provide in the area of the borough or the urban district that the education committee should infallibly contain a majority of members who 774 were also elected members of the County Council. Under the Bill as it at present stood it was open to Councils for small areas to determine whether or not a majority of their members, or indeed any of its members at all, need be placed on the education committees. He did not suppose any such Council would take such a step, because it would be opposed to all ideas of local government; but be submitted that there could be no reason whatever for giving to Council not being Country 775 Councils an option of placing or declining to place on the committee a majority of its members. He begged to move.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In Clause 18, page 9, line 33, after 'unless,' insert 'in the case of a county.'"—(Mr. Yoxall.)
§ SIR ROBERT FINLAYsaid there was very great force in the considerations urged by the hon. Member, and he saw no objection on the point of principle to his Amendment. He understood that there was a general desire in boroughs that the principle should obtain that a majority of the committee should be members of the council. That being so he did not see why the House should not pass the Amendment of the hon. Member.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ MR. HENRY HOBHOUSEsaid the effect of the addition of the words he proposed to moved would be to prevent the Board of Education, in the last resort, from forcing on to the scheme of an unwilling Council the right of nomination as members of the education committee of persons who were outside that body. The County Councils of England viewed with considerable apprehension the insertion of words in the Bill which would oblige them to take the nominees of other bodies than their own against their will. He believed that the provision, in its present form, would be a source of friction and trouble between the Board of Education and the County Councils. The result would be deplorable, and would not serve the interests either of the Board of Education or the County Councils, the ratepayers or the taxpayers, and it certainly would not serve the interests of education.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 9, line 35, to insert, after the word 'desirable,' the words 'to the council.'"—(Mr. Henry Hobhouse.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."—(Mr. Henry Hobhouse.)
§ * MR. HUMPHREYS-OWEN () Montgomeryshiresaid it was obvious that this Clause of the Bill was framed on the analogy of the Welsh educational bodies, and it was of course the fact that on those bodies there were some 776 persons nominated from outside and not directly by the County Councils. But this could not be taken as a precedent for the proposal now before them. The schemes by which extraneous bodies nominated members to serve on the Welsh county governing bodies were submitted to and approved by the County Councils concerned before passing into law. It was, therefore, completely in the power of the Councils to decide whether those extraneous bodies ought to have an independent right of nomination. Consequently, any external nomination. Consequently, any external nomination was only made with the full consent of the County Councils themselves.
§ * SIR WILLIAM ANSONthought the argument of his right hon. friend was founded partly on a misapprehension of the construction of the Clause, and partly on the supposition that the Board of Education, in dealing with this matter, would be as perverse as it was possible for a Government Department to be. The County Councils in framing their schemes might send a list of representatives to the Board of Education, and his right hon. friend seemed to think that the Department would say: "We cannot accept this direct nomination; we must have the nomination of the bodies which we think ought to be represented." It was a very difficult thing to predict what one's course of conduct would be a few months hence, but whether he was at the Board of Education or not, he conceived that the Department would look at the list of representatives, and would, in all probability, say that it adequately supplied the education committee with persons acquainted with the needs of the area. There might be cases in which it was thought that certain bodies or interests were not represented. In those circumstances the Board of Education would represent to the County Councils the importance of appointing representatives of that society or interest. It might be that the association or body itself might appeal to the Board of Education that it should be represented, and it would then be the duty of the Board to bring the claim of this society before the County Council with a view to its being represented either by nomination or by direct representation as the case friction would arise except in very rare cases where a County Council insisted on 777 igroring the interest of some educational body or group of schools within its area which had every right to make its voice heard in the education of the district. Under such circumstances the Board of Education would have the right of intervention, and in the interest of education it was desirable that the Board should retain that power. He anticipated that it would be used on the rarest occasions, but its existence would be a safeguard against possible injustice and the ignoring of interests that ought to be considered. He did not agree with his hon. friend that acceptance of a nomination would be a merely mechanical action on the part of a Council. He believed he was right in point of law in saying that when nominations were made by the selected bodies the Council would be able to refuse to appoint the nominees of those bodies. It would only be in the event of a wholly unsuitable person being nominated that an appointment would fail to take place; but that the Council would maintain the right of appointment in its own hands, although outside bodies were invited to nominate, was a matter upon which he entertained no doubt. Under these circumstances, he believed the fears of his right hon. friend were unfounded, and that the power the section would give to the Board of Education was desirable and necessary.
§ (3.3.) MR. BRYCEsaid the fact that this was a question of importance was clearly shown by the resolution of the County Councils to which reference had been made by the right hon. Gentlman the Member for East Somerset. He thought that all Members of the House would agree on three points: first, that the element of educational competence and knowledge of all kinds likely to help the work of the education committees ought to be represented on those committees; secondly, that no one ought to be appointed who was not generally respected, or who would not have the confidence of every member of the committee or of the Council whose functions the committee were to discharge; and, thirdly, that it was very desirable to avoid the introduction of any element out of which strife, controversy, or jealousy was likely to arise. The 778 committee ought, as far as possible, to be the mirror of the Council, a reflection in the second degree of the electors who had elected the Council, plus that element of special knowledge which all agreed it was desirable to associate with the members of the Council on the committee. Those three conditions were amply satisfied by leaving the Council to decide how the committee should be composed, and the compulsory power which the Government proposed to reserve to the Board of Education was not required. It would not be necessary for the Board to insist on the inclusion of persons representiing University Colleges or great technical institutions, because when such establishments existed within or near the area of a County Council, the desirability of having such representatives had always been regarded. Then there were persons who had given their lives to the study of educational methods, who had considered the relative value of different kinds of study, and were able to judge as to how far scientific ought to be combined with humanistic study, and to determine the point at which general liberal education or general scientific education ought to pass into technical education. But those again were persons whom every Borough or County Council would be glad to appoint. What, then, was the interest it was thought desirable should be represented, but the representation of which it was supposed the County Council might resist? He could only suppose it was that of the denominational associations. Why should they be represented? They would not necesarily bring any kind of educational competence, or represent any interest which ought to be safeguarded, because the question of religious education had already been provided for. If they should happen to represent any special interest or knowledge in particular cases, there was no reason to suppose the Councils would be unwilling to recognise the fact. He felt some difficulty in arguing the question, because the House was still completely in the dark as to who the Government thought would need representation. As to the remarks of the Secretary to the Board of Education, nobody would in the least object to any suggestion on the part of the Board as to the societies or 779 interests to be represented. County or Borough Councils ought to be glad to have such advice, and possibly the Board would be able, by putting it to them as a matter of public duty, to persuade desirable persons to serve who would not otherwise do so. But why should it be supposed that the Council would reject the suggestion of the Board if founded on reason and good sense? The hon. Gentleman went on to say that if the Council persisted in refusing such suggestions, they would have to be compelled to obey the Board of Education. That was the point the Councils resented. They wished to know why on these bodies that were to act for and under them there should be an element in no way amenable to them, but put there as a sentinel to watch them for fear any injustice should be done to a certain kind of school. It was not surprising that the Councils should resent such a suspicion. On the question of nomination, did the hon. Gentleman mean that if an undesirable person were nominated, the Council would have the right to refuse to accept that nominee?
§ * SIR WILLIAM ANSONYes.
§ MR. BRYCEasked whether, supposing a diocesan association sent in a nomination which the Council declined to accept, the right of nomination in the particular body would lapse, or would another nominee be submitted? If the latter was the case, perpetual wrangles might ensue between the Council and the association concerned, the latter nominating and the former refusing the nominations. The possibility of such a result could not be viewed with any satisfaction.
§ * SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid he could not anticipate that a County Council and diocesan association would behave in such a perverse and unmanageable way.
§ MR. BRYCEhoped such a case would not arise, but there was the possibility of it, and extreme cases were the test of an enactment. The Board of Education clearly apprehended the possibility of such conflicts, or they would not demand this power. Was it not much better to adopt the plain and simple principle of trusting the County Council in the matter? All possibility of friction 780 ought to be avoided. He would go so far as to say that no person to whom the County Council could reasonably object ought to be placed on the committee, as the mere fact that he was objected to would prevent a man being a useful member of the committee. More than that, no body or association ought to have a right of nomination to whom the County Council would not gladly and willingly give such right. He would not repeat the argument of the right hon. Member for East Somerset, but he would put the point that he especially felt, namely, that they ought to endeavour to keep in touch with public opinion as it would be represented by the local authority.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI think a good deal of the objection which has been raised with regard to this provision, whether in the Committee stage or the Report stage, arises from the idea that it is the intention of the Board of Education to flood these advisory committees with a large number of persons whose sole, or principal, qualificaion is that they represented associations of voluntary schools. I do not think that that anticipation is well founded. I would remind the House how great is the transition from our existing system of providing board schools and the method proposed to be brought into existence under this Bill. We must bear in mind that under the system of School Board elections the minority vote prevails; and, though I think it is open to the gravest objection, though personally I have to admit that I have changed my opinion upon it, still it has this advantage—I was going to say this solitary advantage amongst all its disadvantages—that it gives to unpopular minorities in a locality a certitude of representation upon the Board, not only upon the advisory body, but upon the controlling body which actually had the whole of the administtation. Now, Sir, the whole of that is swept away absolutely from the controlling body by the plan of this Bill. The controlling body is the County Council or the Borough Council as the case may be, and that is the body really responsible for the whole educational policy of the district, and that is the body with 781 whose constitution we are at this moment concerned. There is no question now of giving minorities, as regards the County Council or the Borough Council, any rights or privileges such as those possessed as regards the School Boards. But I think it is just as well that there should be some provision by which an unpopular minority may have a representative to make its case out on teh advisory committee of the governing body. I wish to be quite frank with the House. Of course the body which I have chiefly in mind is the Roman Catholic. At present, as every one knows, in many of the large towns where there is any considerable Roman Catholic population, and, in consequence, a certain number of Roman Catholic voluntary schools, Roman Catholics can always, by organising their forces, obtain one representative or more on the School Board. I think there ought to be some method by which a person representing this rather exceptional educational community might have the advantage of being on the advisory committee. I do not think that the educational value of the advisory committee will in any way be injured by such selection, and I am very sure that the general views of the educational community in those districts will only carry more weight, constituted as I suggest, than if, by some unfortunate accident, any really important and possibly unpopular minority might have no method whatever of constitutionally making its voice heard.
§ SIR JOHN DORINGTON () Gloucestershire, Tewkesburysaid that the Prime Minister had made out a view with which he had very considerable sympathy. If, however, they were to pay attention to that broad view, the words of the Bill were too wide. All the County Councils of England were to be subjected to great inconvenience in order to obviate a danger which might be prevented in some other way. The words as they stood in the Clause, "where it appears desirable," were ambiguous. To whom was it desirable? to the Council? to the Board of Education? or to the nomination bodies? In order to avoid friction, he thought it ought to be, "to the County Council." Even if the words of the Amendment were inserted, it would still be competent 782 for the Board of Education to overrule the County Council, because any scheme framed had to be submitted to the Board of Education for their approval. It would be far better that the Board of Education should exercise its functions in a friendly way than taht they should adopt an attitude of command. He ventured to assert that the County Councils would never disregard the friendly representations of the Board of Education as to the equitable representation on the education committees of particular interests, and he strongly urged the Government to accept the Amendment so as to place the County Councils in their proper position. He ventured to doubt the Secretary to the Board of Education's dictum, that according to the wording of the Clause the County Council could refuse to elect a person nominated under a scheme, and he therefore urged that the Government should make the point quite clear by accepting the Amendment.
§ MR. ERNEST GRAYsaid it was perfectly true that the cumulative vote had secured the representation of Roman Catholics on many of our large School Boards. If the services of persons in Holy Orders, ministers belonging to dissenting denominations, and Catholic priests were to be secured in the future as in the past, it must be done by some such method as the Government now proposed. On the School Boards the elections had been bitterly fought time and again in the past, in order to secure the presence on the body of certain Dissenting ministers, certain members of the Church of England, and certain Catholic priests. Therefore he hoped this system would be maintained. If they carried the Amendment which had been proposed, those services would be lost. Realising that under the Municipal Corporations Act these persons would be disfranchised, and because he believed that popular opinion was in favour of securing representation by this means, he should support the proposal of the Government.
§ MR. T. M. HEALY () Louth, N.said that the action of the Government in this matter did migigate the severity of some of the earlier portions of the Clause. He thanked the right hon. Gentleman for adhering to his position.
§ SIR JAMES RANKIN () Herefordshire, Leominsterexpressed the hope that it would be made clear that, as the Secretary to the Board of Education had said, the County Councils had the power of appointment of outside members of the education committee, because in many cases they would be the best judges of the individuals who should be elected. He did no think the words of the Clause were at all clear, or left the County Councils freedom of action.
§ * SIR WILLIAM ANSONreplied that he thought the words were perfectly clear. The County Councils could appoint by direct nomination, and not necessarily by nomination of other bodies.
§ * SIR H. MEYSEY-THOMPSON, () Staffordshire, Handsworthsaid that he wished to say one word in the interests of the ratepayers. He pointed out that the County Councils could only act through their eduction committee, because all matters were by the Clause to stand referred to the education committee. It would be necessarily the case that in large counties the Councils would be composed of exceedingly busy men who could not devote their whole time to public work and would be obliged to leave the educational work to the education committee. But how did they propose to treat the County
§ Councils in the matter of control? To begin with, the urban districts who will have their own educational scheme send representatives to the County Council. They would be allowed to vote for the election of the eduction committee; that seemed to the county retepayers to be unfair. The county councillors for the urban districts and their constitutents did not pay the rate, and yet they had the power of influencing the election of the committee. They might on occasion turn the scale in such an election. Now they were told, in addition to having men upon the education committee who did not pay the rate, they were to have members added by the Board of Education on the nomination of outside bodies. These added members might be faddists who only wished to carry out their fads regardless of expense, and yet the County Council were not to have the power of refusing them. Any county councillor seeking election and blamed for extravagance on the part of the County Council, could reply, "It is not our fault, it is the fault of the urban district representatives, and of the nominated members forced on us." He believed the County Council should have full responsibility.
§ (3.36.) Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 81, Noes, 155. (Division List No. 594.)
785| AYES. | ||
| Allan, SirWilliam(Gateshead | Gladstone, Rt. HnHerbertJohn | Palmer, SirCharlesM.(Durham |
| Allen, CharlesP.(Gloue.,Stroud | Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick) | Paulton, James Mellor |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | Philipps, John Wynford |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Price, Robert John |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Holland, Sir William Henry | Rankin, Sir James |
| Black, Alexander William | Horniman, Frederick John | Rigg, Richard |
| Bowles, Capt. H. F.(Middlesex | Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| Brigg, John | Jacoby, James Alfred | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Jones, David Brynmor(Sw'nsea | Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland) |
| Caldwell, James | Kemp, George | Seely, Maj. J. E. B.(IsleofWight |
| Cameron, Robert | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. SirJohnH. | Shackleton. David James |
| Causton, Rochard Knight | Lambert, George | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Channing Francis Allston | Langley, Batty | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) |
| Cremer, William Randal | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R(Northants |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Lloyd-George, David | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E. |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Lough, Thomas | Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings |
| Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | Macartney, Rt. HnW. G Ellison | Thomas, J. A.(Gl'morg'n, Gower |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.) |
| Dunn, Sir William | Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe | Tomkinson, James |
| Ellis, John Edward | Mellor, Rt. Hon. John William | Toulmin, George |
| Emmott, Alfred | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. | Ure, Alexander |
| Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Fitzroy, Hon. EdwardAlgernon | Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Fuller, J. M. F. | Newnes, Sir George | Wason, Eugene |
| Weir, James Galloway | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| White, Luke (York, E. R.) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) | Mr. Henry Hobhouse and Sir John Dorington. |
| Whiteley, George (York, W. R) | Yoxall, James Henry | |
| NOES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Fisher, William Hayes | O'Doherty, William |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Flower, Ernest | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Forster, Hwnry William | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Gardner, Ernest | Percy, Earl |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Garfit, William | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Gibbs, Hon. Vicary(St. Albans | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne |
| Austin, Sir John | Godson, Sir AugustusFrederick | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Bain, Colonel Joames Robert | Gordon, MajEvans-(T'rH'ml'ts | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J.(Manch'r | Gore, HnG. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop | Renshaw, Sir Charlews Bine |
| Balfour, RtHn Gerald W (Leeds | Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | Ridley, Hon. M. W (Stalybridge |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Ridley, S. Forde(Bethnal Green |
| Bartley, Sir George C. T. | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs. | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) |
| Bignold, Arthur | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Ropner, Colonel Robert |
| Bigwood, James | Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Boscawen. Arthur Griffith- | Hamilton, RtHnLordG(Midd'x | Rutherford, John |
| Brassey, Albert | Hardie, J. Keir(MethyrTydvil | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'rd | Saunderson, RtHn. Col. Edw. J. |
| Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Bull, William James | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Spear, John Ward |
| Campbell, Rt HonJ. A(Glasgow | Healy, Timothy Michael | Spencer, Sir E.(W. Bromwich) |
| Carew, James Laurence | Helder, Augustus | Stewart, SirMarkJ. M'Taggart |
| Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbyshire | Hope, J. F.(Sheffiedld, Brightside | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Horner, Frederick William | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Howard, John(Kent, Faversh'm | Talbot, RtHn. J. G.(Oxf'dUniv. |
| Chamberlain, RtHn. J. A(Wore. | Kennedy, Patrick James | Thompson, DrEC(Monagh'n, N |
| Chapman. Edward | Kenyon-Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh | Thompson, Perey M. |
| Charrington, Spencer | Kenyon-Slancy, Col. W.(Salop | Tollemache. Henry James |
| Clive, Captain Percy A. | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow | Tomlinson, Sir Win. Edw. M. |
| Cochrane, Hon, Thos. H. A. E. | Law-on, John Grant | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Lecky, Rt. Hon. William Edw H | Tufoell, Lieut.,-Col. Edward |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Tully, Jasper |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Leveson-Gower, FrederickN. S. | Valen'ia, Viscount |
| Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Walrond, RtHn. SirWilliamH. |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Long, Col, CharlesW.(Evesham | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S. | Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E(Tannt'n |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Welby, Sir Charles, G. E.(Notts |
| Denny, Colonel | Lucas, ReginaldJ.(Portsmouth | Wh teley, H.(Ashtonund. Lyne |
| Dickinson, Robert Edmond | Macdona, John Cumming | Whothmore, Charles Algernon |
| Disracli, Coningsby Ralph | M'lver, SirLewis(EdnburghW | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R. |
| Dixon-Hartland, SirFredDixon | Malcolm, Ian | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H.(Yorks.) |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Maxwell, W. J. H.(Dumf iessh. | Wodehouse, RtHon. E. R.(Bath |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | More, Robt. Jasper(Shrophire) | Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson |
| Dyke. RtHon. SirWilliamHart | Morgan, DavidJ(Walth'mstow | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Egerton. Hon. A. de Tatton | Morrison, James Archibald | Wrightson, Sir Thomas |
| Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) | Mount, William Arthur | Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. |
| Fardell, Sir T. George | Murray, RtHnA. Graham(Bute | Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong |
| Fellowers, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Buth | |
| Fergussion, RtHnSirJ.(Manch'r | Nicholson, William Graham | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Sir Alexander Acland Hood and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
MR. HUMPHREYS-OWNsaid the principle of the Amendment which he had to move was to insist upon it that a man should not have a direct vote on any question which related to the amount of his salary or to the conditions of his employment. The Amendment was as much in the interest of the teaching staff as it was in that of the public generally.
§ * MR. SPEAKERDoes the hon. Member for Montgomery move his first Amendment?
§ * MR. HUMPHREYS-OWENYes, I move the first Amendment.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page10, line 6, after" the word 'shall,' to insert the words 'unless the council otherwise determine.' "—(Mr. Hvmphreys-Owon.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
§ (3.50.) MR. HENRY HOBHOUSEthought that the answer which would be given would be to the effect that the financial control was vested in the Council. Any one who had worked on these bodies knew well that many of the financial proposals were practically determined in the education committees themselves. If the committee sanctioned a school or raised a salary and had perhaps some 600 schools to deal with, that action was not very likely to be altered by the Council. That being so, surely it was against all the rules of local government that persons who had a personal interest in these questions should excercise a vote on the subject. He believed that this proposal was against the spirit of the Municipal Corporations Act, and unless corrected in some such way as was proposed it might give rise to very serious complaints.
§ THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL MENT BOARD (Mr. WALTER LONG,) Bristol, S.said that the Government had some doubt as to what the precise effect of the Amendment would be. If the result would be to give the local authority power to make a general discrimination in regard to the members of the committee the Government would regard the first Amendment could be interpreted as enabling the Council to discriminate between individuals, then obviously it was a power which the Government could not allow. There was a general power which prevented those who were personally interested in the result of a decision of the Council from taking part in those decisions, and he suggested that, as there was some doubt as to the precise application of the words, the point should be reserved for another place.
§ MR. ERNEST GRAYsaid that at an earlier stage an Amendment was brought up by the hon. Baronet the Member for the Tewkesbury Division of Gloucestershire to exclude all persons having an interest in the work. That Amendment was, with the consent of the Committee, amended on the Motion of the hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, and the Committee distinctly set up an exception, namely, that teachers in schools aided, provided, or maintained by the local 788 authority should not be disqualified from holding seats upon the committees. What did the Amendment now before the House propose? If the local County Council passed a resolution that it would not have any of these persons sitting on the committee, then the work done in Committee of the whole House would be entirely overruled at the will of the County Council. They would thus have the grotesque anomaly of the County Councils taking a different view of the question; one body disqualifying those receiving the smallest amount of pecuniary aid, and a neighbouring body refraining from passing such a resolution. Inasmuch as the speech of the mover of this Amendment was not directed to this Amendment but to another proposal on the Paper, he thought the answer of the President of the Local Government Board had not been very carefully thought out.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he was very glad that the Government would not accept the Amendment. It was really directed against the elementary school teachers. If the Amendment were adopted the effect would be that a County Council could pass a resolution excluding every clementary teacher from being appointed.
§ * MR. HUMPHREYS-OWENsaid that after the statement made by the President of the Local Government Board in regard to the disqualification from voting, he might be allowed to withdraw the Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 10, line 8, at end, to insert the words 'but no such person shall vote on any question relating to the salary or conditions of employment of any member of the teaching staff in any school aided, provided, or maintained by the local education authority.'"—(Mr. Humphreys-Owen.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
§ MR. WALTER LONGsaid the object of the Amendment was one in regard to which they were all agreed, namely, that members of a body who were deriving immediate benefit from the decisions of that body should not participate in those decisions. It might, however, be found 789 extremely difficult to apply the Amendment if adopted in the form in which it was drawn. The words "or conditions of employment of any member of the teaching staff" were extremely wide, and might preclude a member of the committee from taking part in deliberations in regard to which he might be one of the most competent to speak. Words ought to be introduced which would make the limitation applicable only to the precise point which he had already laid down—that was to say, voting upon a question of salary or questions closely appertaining to salary. That Amendment should not be made hurriedly, as would be the case here.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEhoped his hon. friend would not press the Amendment in this form. There was a good deal to be said for the view that a member should not be allowed to vote in respect of his own salary, but the words of the Amendment were very sweeping. He suggested that his hon. friend should accept the proposal made by the President of the Local Government Board.
§ * SIR FRANCIS POWELLsaid there ought to be no exception in favour of one class or another. If words were introduced they should include all or none.
§ MR. ERNEST GRAYsuggested that the Amendment should be restricted to the refusal to allow a person to vote upon a question in which he was personally interested.
§ * MR. HUMPHREYS-OWENsaid that after what the President of the Local Government Board had said he was willing to withdraw the Amendment, but he must point out, in view of the matter being dealt with in another place, that class interests as well as personal interests required to be guarded against.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn
§ MR. YOXALLmoved to insert at the beginning of line 12, Clause 18, "Provided that the proper co-ordination of all forms of education under Parts II. and III. of this Act is adequately secured." He hoped the Government would be able to 790 accept the Amendment, because it was intended to secure that there should be due co-ordination of secondary and elementary education.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 10, line 12 at the beginning, to insert the words 'Provided that the proper coordination of all forms of education under Parts II. and III. of this Act is adequately secured.'"—(Mr Yoxall.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
§ * SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid an Amendment which stood in his name on the Paper two lines lower down, expressed what the Government were prepared to do in the matter of the co-ordination of the various forms of education.
§ MR. YOXALLbegged leave to withdraw his Amendment.
§ Amendment by leave, withdrawn.
§ * SIR WILLIAM ANSONmoved to leave out "selected and" in line 17, Clause 18.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ MR. DUNCAN () Yorkshire, W. R., Otleymoved to add at the end of sub-Section (4)—"Provided that no scheme made by the Board of Education shall provide for the constitution of a separate education committee for any area within the county, or for a joint committee as aforesaid, unless with the consent of the County Council." The intention of the Bill was that the County Council should be supreme within its area, and the Amendment was by way of guarantee that this intention should be carried into effect.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 10, line 19, at the end of sub-Section (4), to insert the words 'Provided that no scheme made by the Board of Education shall provide for the constitution of a separate education committee for any area within the county, or for a Joint Committee as aforesaid, unless with the consent of the County Council.'"—(Mr. Duncan.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
791§ * SIR CHARLES DILKEthought it most unlikely that the case contemplated by the Amendment would ever happen. He thought the odds against it were very great indeed, but it was just concerivable that it might, and it seemed undesirable to tie the hands of the Board of Education in the matter.
§ SIR JOHN BRUNNER () Cheshire, Northwichhoped the Board of Education would not make any separate districts in a county, because that would greatly harm the administration of the Act. Those arrangements were very much better if they were elastic, and to bring an arrangement of this sort into a scheme would be to introduce a feature of rigidity which he was sure would be mischievous in time to come. He should like the Government to accept the Amendment, but if they could not he hoped they would give the House an assurance that the Board of Education would not compel an unwilling, or indeed any, County Council to introduce this system.
§ MR. HENRY HOBHOUSEhoped the Government would see their way to accept this or a similar Amendment.
§ MR. BRYCEthought it would be useful to create separate committees for separate areas. It was only in that way that the amount of work involved could be overtaken. But he recognised that it was undersirable to appoint such separate committees without the consent of the County Council, and he, therefore, supported the Amendment.
§ * SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid there was great doubt as to whether it was desirable to limit the powers of the Board of Education in this matter. He pointed out that schemes were not made by the Board of Education. They were made by the County Councils and approved by the Board of Education. If this Amendment were carried, it would prevent the Board of Education approving a scheme submitted to them by a County Council. [An HON. MEMBER: No.] He hoped the House would not add the proposed proviso to the Clause. It would be inoperative, or, if operative, it might operate mischievously.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
792§ * SIR WILLIAM ANSONmoved to insert at the end of sub-Section (5)—"and before approving any scheme which provides for the appointment of more than one Education Committee shall satisfy themselves that due regard is paid to the importance of the general coordionation of all forms of educaiton." He said this Amendment was introduced in pursuance of the result of the discussion which took place some ago, at the instance of the hon. Member for West Nottingham. What was proposed by the Amendment was, he thought, the best way in which to attain the object desired by hon. Members on both sides of the House. That object was to instruct the Board of Education in considering a scheme to take into account the risk of interfering with the co-ordination of different kinds of education by the creation of separate committees for elementary and secondary education.
§ MR. YOXALLsaid the Government had recognised in a full and ample manner what he proposed. This instruction to the Board of Education would suffice to prevent any undue frittering away of that management which was so important in the working of the Bill.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEmoved the omission of sub-Section (b), as a protest against acting by Provisional Orders, which gave power to the Government to override the deliberate decisions of the County Councils. There had been several discussions in Committee, in the course of which questions were put to the Parliamentary Secretary of the Board of Education as to what the Government intended to do. The hon. Baronet said that the Board would at first put their views in the form of friendly suggestions, but what would happen if the County Councils declined to accept them? He should like to ask the hon. Baronet now whether it was the intention of the Board of Education to coerce County Councils by forcing upon them the representatives of bodies they did not wish to be represented, or would they leave the ultimate word in these 793 matters with the County Councils which were responsible for education in their districts.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 10, line 24, to leave out sub-Section (b) of Clause 18."—(Mr. Lloyd-George.)
§ Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
§ * SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid that he could only repeat now what he had said before, that in his view it would be the duty of the Board of Education to proceed in these matters by suggestion rather than by compulsion. He thought that such a compulsory power as the
§ sub-Section provided ought to be vested in the Board of Education, to be exercised in the last resort, but he could hardly contemplate circumstances arising in which it would be necessary to use it.
§ MR. BRYCEsaid that, in any event, procedure by Provisional Order was a most unsatisfactory way of settling questions. A Provisional Order would be carried by a Party majority, because the Board of Education which had framed the scheme would rely on the Party majority to carry it.
§ (4.28.) Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 175; Noes, 81. (Division List No. 595.)
795| AYES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Denny, Colonel | Kemp, George |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Dickinson, Robert Edmond | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. SirJohnH. |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Kennedy, Patrick James |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Dixon-Hartland, SirFred Dixon | Kenyon, Hon Geo. T.(Denbigh) |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Dorington, Rt. Hon. SirJohn E. | Kenyon-Slaney. Col. W.(Sarop). |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Law, Andrew Conar (Glasgow) |
| Auston, Sir John | Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Lawson, John Grant |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart | Lecky, Rt. Hn. William Edw. H. |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J.(Manch'r. | Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B.(Hornsey) | Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie |
| Balfour, RtHn. GeraldW.(Leeds | Fardell, Sir T. George | Lev. son-Gower, FrederickN. S. |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Fergusson, RtHn. SirJ.(Mane'r | Long, Col. CharlesW.(Evesham |
| Bartley, Sir George C. T. | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S. |
| Bathurst, Hon. AllenBenjamin | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Lonsdale, john Brownlee |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Fisher, William Hayes | Lowther, Rt. Hon. James(Kent |
| Bignold, Arthur | Fitzroy, Hn. EdwardAlgernon | Loyd, Archie Kirkman |
| Bigwood, James | Flower, Ernest | Lucas, ReginaldJ.(Portsmouth |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Forster, Henry William | Macartney, RtHnW. G. Ellison |
| Bond, Edward | Galloway, William Johnson | Macdona, John Cumming |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Gardner, Ernest | Maconochie, A. W. |
| Bousfield, William Robert | Garlit. William | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) |
| Bowles, Capt. H. F.(Middlesex) | Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) | M'Iver, SirLewis(Edinburgh W |
| Bowles, T. Gibson(King'sLynn) | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Maxwell, W. J. H.(Dumfriessh. |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hn. St. John | Gore, HnG. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. |
| Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy |
| Bull, William James | Goulding, Edward Alfred | More, Robt. Jasper(Shropshire) |
| Campbell, RtHn. J. A.(Glasgow | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Morgan, DavidJ.(Walth'mstow |
| Carew, James Laurence | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) | Morrison, James Archibald |
| Cavend'sh, V C W.(Derbyshire | Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Mount, William Arthur |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | Murray, RtHn. A Graham(Bute |
| Chamberlain, RtHnJ. A.(Wore | Hain, Edward | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) |
| Chapman, Edward | Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Charrington, Spencer | Hamilton, RtHnLordG(Midd'd | Nolan, Col. JohnP.(Galway, N.) |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'rx | O'Doberty, William |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| Colomb, SirJohnCharlesReady | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Healy, Timothy Michael | Peel, Hn. WmRobertWellesley |
| Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Hobhouse, RtHn. H(Som'rset, E | Percy, Earl |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Hope, J. F.(Sheffield, Brightside | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Horner, Frederick William | Rankin, Sir James |
| Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Rasch, Major Frederie Carne |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Howard, John(Kent, Faversham) | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Remnant, James Farqubarson | Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich) | Welby, SirCharlesG. E.(Notts.) |
| Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine | Stewart, SirMarkJ. M'Taggart | Whiteley, H(Ashton und. Lyne |
| Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Ridley, S. Forde(BethnalGreen | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) | Wilson, A. Stanley(York, E. R.) |
| Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson | Talbot, RtHn. J. G.(Oxf'd Univ. | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H.(Yorks.) |
| Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) | Thompson, DrEC(Monagh'nN. | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R.(Bath) |
| Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) | Thornton, Percy M. | Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson |
| Ropner, Colonel Robert | Tollemache, Henry James | Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart- |
| Royds, Clement Molyneux | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. | Wrightson, Sir Thomas |
| Rutherford, John | Tritton, Charles Erne-t | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) | Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward | Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. |
| Saunderson, RtHn. Col. Edw. J. | Tully, Jasper | |
| Seely, Maj. J. E. B(Isle of Wight | Valentia, Viscount | |
| Sharpe, William Edward T. | Walround, RtHn. SirWilliamH. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Smith, JamesParker(Lanarks.) | Warde, Colonel C. E. | |
| Spear, John Ward | Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E(Taunt'n | |
| NOES. | ||
| Allan, Sir William(Gateshead) | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | Schwann, Charles E. |
| Allen, Chas. P.(Gloue.,Stroud) | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. CharlesH. | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Holland, Sir William Henry | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Horniman, Frederick John | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) |
| Black, Alexander william | Humphreys-Owen, Arthue C. | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Jacoby, James Alfred | Spencer, RtHn. C. R.(Northants |
| Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Jones, DavidBrynmor(Swansea | Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.) |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Lambert, George | Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings |
| Burns, John | Langley, Batty | Thomas, J. A.(Glamorg'n, Gower |
| Caldwell, James | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Thomson, F. W.(York, W. R.) |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Tomkinson, James |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Lewis, John Herbert | Toulmin, George |
| Cremer, William Randal | Lloyed-George, David | Ure, Alexander |
| Crombie, John William | Lough, Thomas | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Mellor, Rt. Hon. John William | Wason, Eugene |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Morgan, J. Lloyed(Carmarthen) | Weir, James Galloway |
| Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Moulton, John Fletcher | Whiteley, George (York, W. R.) |
| Dunn, Sir William | Newnes, Sir George | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Ellis, John Edward | Norman, Henry | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Emmott, Alfred | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Palmer, SirCharlesM.(Durham | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Fuller, J. M. F. | Paulton, James Mellor | |
| Grant, Corrie | Philipps, John Wynford | |
| Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E.(Berwick) | Price, Robert John | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. William M'Arthur. |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Rigg, Richard | |
| Hardie, J. Keir(Merthyr Tydvil) | Robson, William Snowdon | |
| Harmsworth, R. Leicester | Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland) |
§ It being after half-past Four of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 11th instant, Proceeded to put forthwith the Questions on the Amendment proposed by the Government to the remaining portions of the Bill.
§
Amendment proposed—
In Clause 19, page 11, line 8, after 'fit' insert '(after giving reasonable notice to the overseers of the parish or parishes concerned).'"—(Sir William Anson.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
796
§
Amendment proposed—
In Clause 19, page 11, line 21, after 'expenditure.' insert 'or rent.'"—(Sir William Anson.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed—
In Clause 19, page11, line 28, after 'loans' insert 'or rent.'"—(Sir William Anson.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed—
In Clause 19, page 11, line 33, leave out 'the annual,' and insert 'any.'"—(Sir William Anson.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed—
In Clause 20, page 12, line 16, after 'a,' insert 'county borough'
In Clause 20, page 12, line 25, after 'county borough,' insert 'borough.' "—(Sir William Anson.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
798
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 12, line 33, to leave out the words 'control or.' "—(Sir William Anson.)
§ (4.40.) Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 78; Noes, 172. (Division List No. 596.)
799| AYES. | ||
| Allan, SirWillam (Gateshead) | Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick) | Robson, William Snowdon |
| Allen, CharlesP. (Gloue.,Stroud) | Griffich, Ellis J. | Schwann, Charles E. |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Hardie, J. Keir (MerthyrTydvil) | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Harmsworth. R. Leicester | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Black, Alexander William | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Holland, Sir William Henry | Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R(Northants) |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Horniman, Frederick John | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Burns, John | Jacoby, James Alfred | Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings) |
| Caldwell, James | Jones, DavidBrynmor(Swansea) | Thomas, J A(Glamorgan, Gower) |
| Causton, Ricbard Knight | Lambort, George | Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.) |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Langley, Batty | Tomkinson, James |
| Craig, Robert Hunter | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Toulmin, George |
| Cremer, William Randal | Leigh, Sir joseph | Ure, Alexander |
| Crombie, John William | Lewis, John Herbert | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Lough, Thomas | Wason, Eugene |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | Weir, James Galloway |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | Mellor, Rt. Hon. John William | Whiteley, George (York, W. R.) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen) | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Dunn, Sir William | Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Ellis, John Edward | Moulton, John Fleteher | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Emmott, Alfred | Newnes, Sir Geoge | |
| Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Norton, capt, Cecil William | |
| Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) | Palmer, SirCharlasM.(Durham) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Price and Mr. Herbert Samuel. |
| Fuller, J. M. F. | Paulton, James Mellor | |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hn. HerbertJohn | Philips, John Wynford | |
| Grant, Corrie | Rigg, Richard | |
| NOES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Bowles, Capt. H. F.(Middlesex) | Dixon-Hartland, SirFr'dDixon |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Bull, William James | Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin |
| Anold-Forester, Hugh O. | Campbell, RtHn. J. A.(Glasgow) | Dyke, Rt. Hn. SirWilliam Hart |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Carew, James Laurence | Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire) | Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Cecil, LOrd Hugh (Greenwich) | Fardell, Sir T. George |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J.(Manch'r) | Chamberlain, RtHn. J A(Wore.) | Fellowes, Hon, Ailwyn Edward |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Chapman, Edward | Fergusson, Rt. Hn. SirJ.(Manc'r) |
| Balfour, RtHnGeraldW. (Leeds) | Charrington, Spencer | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.) | Cochrane, Hon. ThomasH. A. E. | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Fisher, William Hayes |
| Bartley, Sir George C. T. | Colomb, SirJohnCharlesReady | Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Flower, Ernest |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Forster, Henry William |
| Bignold, Arthur | Cranborne, Viscount | Galloway, William Johnson |
| Bigwood, James | Crossley, Sir Savile | Gardner, Ernest |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Cubitt, Hon, Henry | Garfit, William |
| Bond, Edward | Dalkeith, Earl of | Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Denny, Colonel | Godson, Sir AugustusFrederick |
| Bousfield, William Robert | Dicknson, Robert Edmond | Gore, HnG. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop) |
| Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | Lowther, Rt. Hn. James (Kent) | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) |
| Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Lucas, ReginaldJ. (Portsmouth) | Seely, Maj. J. E. B(Isle of Wight) |
| Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) | Macartney. Rt Hn W. G. Ellison | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) | Macdona, John Cumming | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.) |
| Greville, Hon. Ronald | Maconochie, A. W. | Spear, John Ward |
| Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich |
| Hain, Edward | M'Iver, SirLewis(Edmburgh W) | Stewart, SirMarkJ. M'Taggart |
| Hall, Edward Marshall | Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.) | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier |
| Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Ld. G(Midd'x) | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G.(Oxf'd Univ) |
| Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'rd) | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) | Thompson, DrEC(Monagh'n, N) |
| Harris. Frederick Leverton | Morgan, DavidJ(Walthamst'w) | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Hay, Hon. Claude George | Morrison, James Archibald | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Healy, Toimothy Michael | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Helder, Augustus | Mount, William Arthur | Tritton, Charles Erne-t |
| Hobhouse, RtHn H.(Somers't, E) | Murray, RtHnA. Graham (Bute) | Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward |
| Hope, J. F.(Sheffield, Brightside) | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Horner, Frederick William | Nicol, Donald Ninian | Walrond, RtHn. SirWilliam H. |
| Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N.) | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm) | O'Doherty, William | Welby, Lt-ColA. C. E.(Taunton) |
| Kemp, George | Palmer, Walter (salisbury) | Welby, Sir CharlesG. E.(Notts.) |
| Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir JohnH. | Peel, HnWm. Robert Wellesley | Whiteley, H(Ashton und. Lyne) |
| Kennedy, Patrick James | Percy, Earl | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh) | Rankin, Sir James | Wilson, A. Stanley(York, E. R.) |
| Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop) | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (yorks.) |
| King, Sir Henry Seymour | Reid, James (Greenock) | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn E. R.(Bath) |
| Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Remnant, James Farquharson | Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson |
| Lawson, John Grant | Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Lecky, Rt. Hn. William Edw. H. | Ridley, Hn. M. W.(Stalybridge) | Wrightson, Sir Thomas |
| Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Ridley, S. Forde(Bethnal Green) | Wyndham, Rt. Hon George |
| Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson | Wyndham-Quin, MajorW. H. |
| Leveson-Gower, Frederick, NS. | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield | |
| Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) | |
| Long, Col. CharlesW. (Evesham) | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol S.) | Royds, clement Molyneux | |
| Loasdale, John Brownlee | Rutherford, John |
§
Amendments proposed—
In Clause 22, page 13, line 19, leave out 'as a,' and insert 'and having the same effect as an original.'
In Clause 22, page 13, lines 19 and 20, leave out 'for establishing an Education Committee under this Act.' "—(Sir William Anson.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 77; Noes, 171. (Division List No. 597.)
| AYES. | ||
| Allen, Chas. P.(Glouc., Stround) | Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. |
| Barran, Roland Hirst | Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | Holland, Sir William Henry |
| Black, Alexander William | Duncan, J. Hastings | Horniman, Frederick John |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Dunn, Sir William | Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. |
| Brunner, Sir John Tomlison | Ellis, John Edward | Jacoby, James Alfred |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Emmott, Alfred | Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea) |
| Burns, John | Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Lambert, George |
| Caldwell, James | Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) | Leyland-Barratt, Francis |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Fuller, J. M. F. | Leigh, Sir Joseph |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Grant, Corrie | Lewis, John Herbert |
| Craig, Robert Hunter | Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick) | Lough, Thomas |
| Cremer, William Randal | Griffith, Ellis J. | Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe |
| Crombie, John William | Hardie, J. Keir(MerthyrTydvil) | Mellor, Rt. Hn. John William |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Harmsworth, R. Leicester | Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen) |
| Morley, Char'es (Breconshire) | Shaw, Thomas (Harwick B.) | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Mounlton, John Fletcher | Shipman, Dr. John G. | Wason, Eugene |
| Newnes, Sir George | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) | Weir, James Galloway |
| Notton, Capt. Cecil William | Soames, Arthur Wellesley | White. Luke (York. E. R.) |
| Palmer, SirCharlesM. (Durham) | Spencer, Rt HnC. R.(Northants) | Whiteley, George (York, W. R.) |
| Paulton, James Mellor | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) | Whittaker. Thomas Palmer |
| Philipps, John Wynford | Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hasting-) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Price, Robert John | Thomas, J. A.(Glamorgan, Gower) | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Rigg, Richard | Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.) | |
| Rob-on, William Snowdon | Toulmin, George | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. William M'Arthur. |
| Samnel, Herpert L.(Cleveland) | Ure, Alexander | |
| Schwann, Charles E. | Wallace, Robert | |
| NOES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Fisher, William Hayes | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Fiezroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy |
| Anson, Sir william Reynell | Flower, Ernest | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Forster, Henry William | Morgan, DavidJ.(Walth'mst'w) |
| Arnold-Forester, Hugh O. | Gelloway, William Johnson | Morrison, James Archibald |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Gardner, Ernest | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer |
| Austin, Sir John | Garlit, William | Mount, William Arthur |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) | Murray, Rt Hn AGranham(Bute) |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J.(Manch'r) | Godson, Sir Augnstus Frederick | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop) | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Balfour, RtHnGeraldW.(Leeds) | Go-chen, Hon. George Joachim | Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N.) |
| Balfour, Kenneth R.(Christch.) | Goulding, Edward Alfred | O'Doherty, William |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| Bartley, Sir George C. T. | Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) | Percy, Earl |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Grenfel, William Hentry | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Bignold, Arthur | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Rankin, Sir James |
| Bigwood, James | Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | Resch, Major Frederic Carne |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Hain, Edward | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Bond, Edward | Hall, Edward Marshall | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Bousfield, William Robert | Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. | Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine |
| Bowles, Capt. H. F.(Middlesex) | Hamilton, RtHnLordG(Midd'x) | Ridley, Hon. M. W.(Stalybridge) |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'rd) | Ridley, S. Forde(BethnalGreen) |
| Brookfield, Col. Montagu | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson |
| Bull, William James | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A.(Glasgow) | Healy, Timothy Michael | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Carew James Laurence | Helder, Augustus | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire) | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside) | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Horner, Frederick William | Rutherford, John |
| Chamberlain, Rt Hn J A(Wore.) | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Chapman, Edward | Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm) | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) |
| Charrington, Spencer | Kemp, George | Seely, Maj. J. E. B(Isle of Wight) |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Kennedy, Patrick James | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh) | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.) |
| Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop) | Spear, John Ward |
| Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | King, Sir Henry Seymour | Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich) |
| Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Stewart, Sir Mark J. M 'Taggart |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Lawson, John Grant | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Lecky, Rt. Hon. William Edw. H | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage. | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.) |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Thompson, Dr EC(Monagh' n, N) |
| Denny, Colonel | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Dickinson, Robert Edmund | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S.) | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. H. |
| Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth) | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) | Macartney, Rt Hn. W. G. Ellison | Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E(Taunt'n) |
| Fardell Sir T George | Macdona, John Cumming | Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.) |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Maconochie, A. W. | Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne) |
| Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r) | M 'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | M 'Iver, Sir Lewis(Edinburgh W) | Wilson, A. Stanley(York, E. R.) |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.) | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
| Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R.(Bath) | Wrightson, Sir Thomas | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Worsely-Taylor, Henry Wilson | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George | |
| Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- | Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. |
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 13, line 25, to leave out the word 'elementary,' and insert the words 'instruction in reading, writing, and arithmetic, as prescribed by regulations to be made by the Board of Education for the purpose,' "—(Sir William Anson.)
§ (4.50.) Question put, "That the word 'elementary' stand part of the Bill."
803§ Words inserted in the Bill.
§
Amendments proposed—
In Clause 23, page 13, line 33, at end, add, 'Provided that the local education authority may with the consent of the Board of Education extend those limits in the case of any such school if no suitable higher education is available within a reasonable distance of the school.'
In Clause 23, page 13, line 33, add as a new sub-Section, '(3) The power to supply or aid the supply of education other than elementary includes a power to train teachers, and to supply or aid the supply of any education except where that education is given at a public elementary day school or at evening schools which are elementary schools.' "—(Sir William Anson.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
804
§
Amendment proposed—
In Clause 23, page 14, line 2, after 'appointment,' insert 'of managers.'
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 14, line 13, at the end, to insert, as a new sub-Section the words, '(8) In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires, the expression 'trust deed' includes any instrument regulating the trusts or management of a school.'"—(Sir William Anson.)
§ (5.1.) Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 164; Noes, 70. (Division List No. 598.)
805| AYES. | ||
| Agg Gardner, James Tynte | Dickinson, Robert Edmond | Kennedy, Patrick James |
| Agn w Sir Andrew Noel | Dixon-Hartland, Sir FredDixon | Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh) |
| Aason, Sir William Reynell | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W.(Salop.) |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Dyke, RtHon. SirWilliamHart | King, Sir Henry Seymour |
| Arnold. Forster, Hugh O. | Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) |
| Arthinson, Rt. Hon. John | Faber, Edmund B, (Hants, W.) | Lawson, John Grant |
| Austin, Sir John | Fardell, Sir T. George | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage |
| Bagot Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r) | Fergusson, Rt Hn. SirJ.(Manc'r) | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine |
| Balfour, Rt HnGeraldW (Leeds) | Fisher, William Hayes | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.) | Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S.) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Flower, Ernest | Lowther, Rt. Hon. James(Kent) |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Forster, Henry William | Loyd, Archie Kirkman |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Galloway, William Johnson | Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth) |
| Beresford, Lord Chas. William | Gardner, Ernest | Macdona, John Cumming |
| Bignold, Arthur | Garfit, William | Maconochie, A. W. |
| Bigwood, James | Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Maxwell, W. J H (Dumfriesshire) |
| Bond, Edward | Gore, HnG. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop) | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. |
| Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex) | Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy |
| Bowles, T. Gibson(King'sLynn) | Goulding, Edward Alfred | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Morgan, DavidJ. (Walthamstow) |
| Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury) | Morrison, James Archibald |
| Bull, William James | Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow) | Grenfell, William Henry | Mount, William Arthur |
| Carew, James Laurence | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Murray, RtHnA. Graham (Bute) |
| Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire) | Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | Murray, Col. Wyndham(Bath) |
| Chamberlain, RtHnJ. A(Wore.) | Hain, Edward | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Chamberlayne, T.(S'thampton) | Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. | Nolan, Col. JohnP.(Galway, N.) |
| Chapman, Edward | Hamilton, RtHnLordG(Midd'x) | O'Doherty, William. |
| Charrington, Spencer | Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'rd) | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Peel, HnWm. RobertWellesley |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Colomb, Sir John CharlesReady | Healy, Timothy Michael | Rankin, Sir James |
| Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Helder, Augustus | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne |
| Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Hobhouse, RtHn H(Somers't, E) | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Hope. J. F.(Sheffield, Brightside) | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Cro-sley, Sir Savile | Horner, Frederick William | Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine |
| Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Ridley, Hon. M. W (Stalybridge) |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Kemp, George | Ridley, S. Forde(Bethnal Green) |
| Denny, Colonel | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson |
| Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) | Whiteley, H(Ashton-und-Lyne) |
| Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) | Talbot, RtHn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.) | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert | Thompson, Dr. EC(Monagh'n, N.) | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) |
| Royds, Clement Molyneux | Thornton, Percy M. | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H.(Yorks.) |
| Rutherford, John | Tollemache, Henry James | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath) |
| Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. | Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson |
| Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) | Tritton, Charles Ernest | Worsley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isleof Wight) | Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward | Wrightson, Sir Thomas |
| Sharpe, William Edward T. | Tully, Jasper | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.) | Valentia, Viscount | Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. |
| Spear, John Ward | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H | |
| Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich) | Warde, Colonel C. E. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Stewart, Sir Mark J. M 'Taggart | Welby, Lt-Col A. C. E. (Taunton) | |
| Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier | Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Allen, Charles P.(Gloue., Stroud) | Hardie, J. Keir(Merthyr Tydvil) | Robson, William Snowdon |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Harmsworth, R. Leicester | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) |
| Black, Alexander William | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | Schwann, Charles E. |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
| Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Holland, Sir William Henry | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Horniman, Frederick John | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) |
| Caldwell, James | Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Jacoby, James Alfred | Spencer, Rt Hn C. R. (Northants) |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Jones, David Brynmor(Sw'nsea) | Thomas F. Freeman-(Hastings) |
| Craig, Robert Hunter | Lambert, George | Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gow'r) |
| Cremer, William Randal | Laylan-Barratt, Francis | Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.) |
| Crombie, John William | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Ure, Alexander |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Lewis, John Herbert | Wallace, Robert |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Lough, Thomas | Walton, Joseph Barnsley |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe | Wason, Eugene |
| Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | Mellor, Rt. Hon. John William | Weir, James Galloway |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Dunn, Sir William | Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | Whiteley, George (York, W. R.) |
| Ellis, John Edward | Newnes, Sir George | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Emmott, Alfred | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham) | |
| Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) | Paulton, James Mellor | |
| Fuller, J. M. F. | Philipps, John Wynford | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. William M 'Arthur. |
| Grant, Corrie | Price, Robert John | |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Rigg, Richard |
§
Amendment proposed—
In Clause 23, page 14, line 25, leave out act or.'
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed—
In Clause 23, page 14, lines 26 and 27, leave out 'as regards, ' and insert 'which relates only to.'
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed—
In Clause 23, page 14, line 32, at end, add as a new sub-Section—'(12) The Board of Education may, if they think fit, hold a public inquiry for the purpose of the exercise of any of their powers or the performance of any of their duties under this Act, and section seventy-three of The Elementary Education Act, 1870, shall apply to any public inquiry so held, or held under any other provision of this Act.'
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed—
In Clause 24, page 14, line 34, after 'relating to,' insert 'education committees and managers, and to.'
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed—
In Clause 24, page 14, line 38, leave out 'to any area for which Part III. of this Act is adopted,' and insert, 'and other enactmonts referred to in that schedule.'
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed—
In Clause 24, page 15, line 1, leave out all after 'schedule,' to end of Clause.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed—
In Clause 26, page 15, line 13, leave out 'twelve' and insert 'eighteen.'
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed—
In Clause 26, page 15, line 16, leave out 'local education authorities' and insert 'councils.'
§ Amendment agreed to.
807
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 16, line 27, after the word 'Chairman,' to insert the words 'except in cases where there is an ex-officio Chairman.' "—(Sir William Anson.)
§ (5.13.) Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 156; Noes, 71. (Division List No. 599.)
809| AYES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Gore, Hn G. R. COrmsby-(Salop) | Peel, Hn Wm. Robert Wellesley |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Rankin, Sir James |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Austin, Sir John | Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Grenfell, William Henry | Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r) | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge) |
| Balfour,' Kenneth R. (Christch.) | Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | Ridley, S. Forde(Bethnal Green) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Hain, Edward | Ritchie, Rt Hon. Chas. Thomson |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Hamilton Rt Hn Lord G(Midd'x) | Robetson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Beresford, Lord Charles William | Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'rd) | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Bignold, Arthur | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Bigwood, James | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Rutherford, John |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Healy, Timothy Michael | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Bond, Edward | Helder, Augustus | Seely, Maj. J. E. B(Isle of Wight) |
| Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex) | Hobhouse, Rt Hn H(Somerset, E) | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside) | Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.) |
| Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Horner, Frederick William | Spear, John Ward |
| Bull, William James | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Spencer, Sir E.(W. Brom wich) |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A(Glasgow) | Kemp, George | Stewart, Sir Mark J. M 'Taggart |
| Carew, James Laurence | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire) | Kennedy, Patrick James | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Chamberlain, Rt Hn J. A(Worc.) | Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh) | Talbot, Rt Hn J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.) |
| Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton) | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop) | Thompson, Dr. EC(Monagh'n, N) |
| Chapman, Edward | King, Sir Henry Seymour | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Charrington, Spencer | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Lawson, John Grant | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward |
| Cox, Irwin, Edward Bainbridge | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. | Tully, Jasper |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Valentia, Viscount |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Long, Col. Charles W(Evesham) | Walrond, Rt. Hn Sir William H. |
| Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S) | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Lowther, Rt. Hon. James(Kent) | Welby, Lt.-Col. A. CE(Taunton) |
| Denny, Colonel | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.) |
| Dickinson, Robert Edmond | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth) | Whiteley, H. (Asht'n und. Lyne) |
| Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon | Macdona, John Cumming | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart | Maconochie, A. W. | Wilson, A. Stanley(York, E. R.) |
| Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) | M 'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
| Fardell, Sir T. George | Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.) | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath) |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. | Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson |
| Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J(Manc'r) | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | More, Robt. Jasper(Shropshire) | Wrightson, Sir Thomas |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Morgan, David J (Walth'mstow) | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | Morrison, James Archibald | Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H. |
| Flower, Ernest | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | |
| Forster, Henry William | Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham(Bute) | |
| Galloway, William Johnson | Murray, Col Wyndham(Bath) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Gardner, Ernest | Nicol, Donald Ninian | |
| Garfit, William | Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.) | |
| Gibbs, Hon. Vicary(St. Albaus) | O-Doherty, William | |
| NOES. | ||
| Allen, Charles P. (Gloue,. Stroud) | Cremer, William Randal | Ferguson, R. C. Munro(Leith) |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Crombic, John William | Fuller, J. M. F. |
| Black, Alexander William | Dalziel, James Henry | Grant, Corrie |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Griffith, Ellis J. |
| Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) | Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Hardie, J. Keir(MerthyrTydvil) |
| Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | Harmsworth, R. Leicester |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Duncan, J. Hastings | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- |
| Burns, John | Dunn, Sir William | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. |
| Caldwell, James | Ellis, John Edward | Holland, Sir William Henry |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Emmott, Alfred | Horniman, Frederick John |
| Craig, Robert Hunter | Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. |
| Jacoby, James Alfred | Paulton, James Mellor | Thomas, J A(Glamorg'n, Gower) |
| Jones, David Brynmor(Sw'nsea) | Philipps, John Wynford | Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.) |
| Lambert, George | Price, Robert John | Wallace, Robert |
| Layland-Barratt, Francis | Rea, Russell | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Leigh, Sir Joseph | Rigg, Richard | Wason, Eugene |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Robson, William Snowdon | Weir, James Galloway |
| Lloyd-George, David | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe | Schwann, Charles E. | Whiteley, George (York, W. R.) |
| Mellor, Rt. Hon. John William | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Shipman, Dr. John G. | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Morley, Charles (Breconshire) | Sinclair, John (Forfarshlre) | |
| Newnes, Sir George | Soames, Arthur Welleisey | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. William M 'Arthur and Mr. Causton. |
| Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Spencer, Rt Hn C. R. (Northants) | |
| Palmer, SirCharles M.(Durham) | Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings) |
§
Amendment proposed—
In Schedule 1, page 16, line 35, after 'Chairman' insert 'of the meeting.'
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed—
In Schedule 2, page 18, line 13, leave out 'that fund' and insert 'the proper fund or account.'
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed—
In Schedule 2, page 18, line 39, at end, insert, as a fresh paragraph—(9) The disqualification of any persons who are, at the time of the passing of this Act, members of any Council and who will become disqualified for office in consequence of this Act shall not, if the Council so resolve, take effect until a day fixed by the Resolution, not being later than the next ordinary day of retirement of councillors in the case of a County Council, the next ordinary day of election of councillors in the case of the Council of a borough, and the 15th day of April in the year 1904 in the case of an Urban District Council.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed—
In Schedule 2, page 20, line 27, at end, add 'and if any compensation is payable otherwise than by way of an annual sum. the payment
§ of that compensation shall be a purpose for which a Council may borrow for the purposes of this Act."
§ * MR. SPEAKERIt appears to be in order, as it only affects the method of raising money.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed—
In Schedule 3, page 20, line 35, after 'act' insert 'except as respects transactions befor, the appointed day and.'
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed—
In Schedule 3, page 21, line 33, after 'shall, insert 'unless the context otherwise requires.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
In page 22, line 17, to leave out the word 'section,' and insert the words 'sections fifteen and.'"—(Sir William Anson.)
§ (5.26.) Questions put, "That the word 'section' stand part of the Bill."
§ The House divided—Ayes, 65; Noes, 145. (Division List No.600.)
811| AYES. | ||
| Allen, Charles P.(Gloue., Stroud) | Dunn, Sir William | Leigh, Sir Joseph |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Ellis, John Edward | Lewis, John Herbert |
| Black, Alexander William | Emmott, Alfred | Lloyd-George, David |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Farquharson, Dr. Robert | M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) |
| Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) | Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) | Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe |
| Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Grant, Corrie | Mellor, Rt. Hon. John William |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Griffith, Ellis J. | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) |
| Burns, John | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | Morley, Charles (Breconshire) |
| Caldwell, James | Harmsworth, R. Leicester | Newnes, Sir George |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | Norton, Capt. Cecil William |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. | Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham) |
| Craig, Robert Hunter | Holland, Sir William Henry | Paulton, James Mellor |
| Cremer, William Randal | Horniman, Frederick John | Philipps, John Wynford |
| Crombie, John William | Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. | Rea, Russell |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Jacoby, James Alfred | Rigg, Richard |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea) | Robson, William Snowdon |
| Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | Lambert, George | Samuel, Herbert L. Cleveland |
| Duncan, J. Hastings | Laylan-Barratt, Francis | Schwann, Charles E. |
| Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.) | Wallace, Robert | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Shipman, Dr. John G. | Wason, Eugene | |
| Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) | White, Luke (York, E. R.) | |
| Spencer, RtHn. C. R.(Northants) | Whiteley, George (York, W. R.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Price and Mr. Soames. |
| Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.) | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer | |
| NOES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Galloway, William Johnson | Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.) |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Gardner, Ernest | O'Doherty, William |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Garfit, William | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) | Peel, Hn Wm. Robert Wellesley |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Gore, HnG. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop) | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne |
| Austin, Sir John | Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r) | Gray, Ernest(West Ham) | Ridley, Hon. M. W(Stalybridge) |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) | Ridley, S. Forde(Bethnal Green) |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.) | Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) | Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Grenfell, William Henry | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Hain, Edward | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Bignold, Arthur | Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G(Midd'x) | Rutherford, John |
| Bigwood, James | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Seely, Maj. J. F. B. (Isle of Wight) |
| Bond, Edward | Healy, Timothy Michael | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex) | Helder, Augustus | Skewes-Cox, Thomas |
| Bowlesk, T. Gibson(King's Lynn) | Hobhouse, Rt Hn H(Somerset, E) | Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.) |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside) | Spear, John Ward |
| Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Horner, Frederick William | Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich) |
| Bull, William James | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Stewart, Sir Mark J. M 'Taggart |
| Campbell, Rt Hon J. A. (Glasgow) | Kemp, George | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier |
| Carew, James Laurence | Kennedy, Patrick James | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbyshire) | Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh) | Thompson, Dr EC(Monagh'n, N) |
| Camberlain, Rt Hn J. A(Wore) | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.) | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Chamberlayne T. (S'thampton) | Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Chapman, Edward | Lawson, John Grant | Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward |
| Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. | Tully, Jasper |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Valentia, Viscount |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) | Walrond, Rt Hn. Sir William H. |
| Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S.) | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Lowther, Rt. Hon. James(Kent) | Welby, Lt-Col A. C. E. (Taunton) |
| Denny, Colonel | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.) |
| Dickinson, Robert Edmond | Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth) | Whiteley, H(Ashton und. Lyne) |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Macdona, John Cumming | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) |
| Dixon-Hartland Sir Fred Dixon | Maconochie, A. W. | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
| Dyke, Rt Hon. Sir William Hart | M 'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Wodehouse, Rt. Hon. E. R(Bath) |
| Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) | Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.) | Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson |
| Fardell, Sir T. George | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Wrightson, Sir Thomas |
| Fergusson, RtHonSirJ(Manc'r.) | More, Robt. Jasper(Shropshire) | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Morgan, David J(Walthamst'w) | |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon | Murray, RtHnA. Graham (Bute) | |
| Flower, Ernest | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | |
| Forster, Henry William | Nicol. Donald Ninian |
§ Words inserted in the Bill.
§
Amendment proposed—
In Schedule 4, page 22, line 17, insert 'sections fifteen and.'
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed—
In Schedule 4, page 22, line 30, after 'fifty-one,' insert 'in section fifty-two in the words "under the provisions of this Act with respect to the appointment of a body of managers." '
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed—
812
In Schedule 4, page 23, leave out lines 11, 12, and 13.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Bill to be read the third time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed [Bill 304.]
§ Mr. SPEAKER, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 16th October last, adjourned the House without Question put.
§ Adjourned at twenty-five minutes before Six o'clock till Monday next.