EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.

HC Deb 18 November 1902 vol 114 cc1243-307

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

[Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]

Amendment proposed— In line 1, to leave out the words: '(1) Nothing in this Act shall affect any endowment, or the discretion of any trustees in respect thereof: provided that."'—(Lord Edmund Fitzmaurice.)

Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

(2.35) MR. STEVENSON (Suffolk, Eye)

hoped that since last evening the Government had reconsidered their position, for it was evident that the words proposed to be left out were surplusage and ought to be omitted, or else they were capable of conveying a meaning not contemplated by the authors of the Clause. In his view they were mere surplusage, because there was nothing in the Act to affect any endowment apart from what was incidentally and necessarily connected with the operation of the Clause itself. If these words remained in the Bill their interpretation might be strained to mean something very much wider than the Government intended. The local education committee might be debarred from holding these inquiries, and if that were not intended, then certainly the words should be struck out. Words of that nature would not have been inserted without a definite meaning, and naturally the authority would seek to find one. The meaning that would probably be assigned to them would be that the local authority was debarred from doing certain work which was really a concomitant of the work they were called upon to perform under this Clause.

SIR FRANCIS POWELL (Wigan)

believed that these words were important and desirable, and ought to be retained in the Clause. In common with all who had had an opportunity of observing the working of the schools, he attached the greatest value to the ancient endowments of the country. A Clause of this kind ought not to be inserted in the Bill without again placing on the Statute-book the opinion of Parliament as to the value of these ancient endowments. As he understood the words, the endowments would by then be left over to the Board of Education or Charity Commissioners to deal with them exactly as they now were, and the words proposed to be omitted would secure that neither one side nor the other was prejudiced. He felt the importance of maintaining these endowments and adapting them to the circumstances of the day, and he supported the retention of the words, because he believed that they were consistent with the great principle of the maintenance of the endowments and their adaptation to the circumstances of the age.

MR. WHITLEY (Halifax)

said it seemed to him it would be desirable for the Government to substitute the word "power" for "discretion" in the words proposed to be left out. He objected to the word "discretion," because it conferred on the trustees the power to discriminate as to what part of the money of a general trust should be devoted to repairs, and what part to the general education in the school. The word "power" would reserve to the trustees everything they were entitled to have.

LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICE (Wiltshire, Cricklade)

said he wished to point out to the Committee that it was impossible to separate these words from the second Clause of the Bill as amended by the Government itself. By that Clause the duty of co-ordinating all forms of education was placed on the local education authority, and it appeared to him that if these words were left in they would limit, and, indeed, take away from the local education authorities whatever power to co-ordinate all forms of education might have been given them under the Clause. The Government had always put it forward that their great wish was to co-ordinate education, and inasmuch as Clause 2 was at present in a very lame conditions he hoped that on Report an opportunity would be found to strengthen it in that direction. The only argument for the words was that they were surplusage and unmeaning, or, as he ventured to describe them on the preceding night, pompous preamble; and in that case they ought to be struck out. If they had any meaning, it must be to the injury of Clause 2.

MR. SAMUEL EVANS (Glamorganshire, Mid)

complained that the Government had given them no explanation of the meaning of the words, and said that in his judgment they were very dangerous words. It was understood that whatever income the trustees or managers had for the purpose of maintaining elementary education was to be transferred to the local education authority. But now it was provided that nothing in the Bill was to affect any endowment, or the discretion of any trustee, in spite of the fact that in the very next words the Clause proceeded to affect the endowment. If the words were meaningless, they ought to be struck out; if they had any meaning, then they could only operate in a mischievous direction.

MR. DUNCAN (Yorkshire, W.R., Otley)

said he had had an opportunity of going through the list of endowments in the West Riding of Yorkshire, and he had found that there was a considerable number of small endowments given specially to the schoolmasters and mistresses of the parish. Would they be taken into account in fixing the salary of the teacher? If so, it appeared to him that the parish would lose the benefit of these endowments. If the local authority had no power of using these endowments, say, for scholarships, and if they were all to be thrown into the hotch-pot, the small parishes would stiller a great loss.

THE SECRETARY OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Sir WILLIAM ANSON, Oxford University)

said that the salary of the schoolmaster or mistress was a matter for which provision had to be made by the local education authority, and any endowment for that purpose would go to the local authority, and be credited to the parish. The Clause avowedly dealt with the income of endowments, and did not touch the endowments themselves, or interfere with the discretion of the trustees. He believed the words proposed to be omitted were necessary, and would in no way prejudice future recipients of the incomes of the endowments.

MR. BRYCE (Aberdeen, S.)

said that according to the Secretary to the Board of Education, the schoolmaster, in the cases cited by the hon. Member for the Otley Division, would be no better, and education would be no better, for the endowment; but the rates would be relieved.

DR. MACNAMARA (Camberwell, N.)

asked whether it would be in the competence of trustees to divert a part of the income from the endowment to the upkeep of the school buildings, or to lay it by to accumulate a building fund.

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

said that if it were in the power of the trustees to deal with the money in that way now, it would equally be in their power hereafter. Whoever possessed a discretion in the application of the money would retain the discretion. Where the purposes for which the endowment was designed were met by the local authority, the endowment could be diverted to other purposes.

DR. MACNAMARA

Then it is in the mind of the Government that part of the income of an ordinary educational endowment may be applied in the future to the up-keep of the fabric.

MR. SAMUEL EVANS

Yes, they said so last night.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE (Carnarvon) Boroughs

said that the meaning of the Clause was at last clear. Although he had read it repeatedly without getting an idea of its real meaning, he did at last get some glimmering, because the hon. Member for Tunbridge supported it, and thereby showed that it must have some thing to do with religious or sectarian educational endowments. The local authority, with the rates behind it, would always provide adequately for elementary education, and, therefore, the question was whether the endowment could be set free for the relief of rates, by being diverted to the maintenance of the fabric and the Sunday school. The Prime Minister appeared to dissent, but that was the only interpretation he could place on the words of the Secretary to the Board of Education when he told them that if secular education were adequately provided for by the local authority, the trustees would have unlimited discretion to use the money for purposes for which the local authority was not responsible. As that authority would have an inexhaustible fund in the form of the rates at its back, it would certainly be able to make adequate provision, and would not need to fall back on the endowments. That being so, the trustees would have discretion to use them for other than educational purposes, although they had been left I for the general instruction of the poor of the parish, and he ventured to assert that any such diversion would mean confiscating endowments given to the poor for the benefit of the richest church in the parish. He could only describe it as a gross act of confiscation, and the intention to permit it was not even disclosed by the Government until the guillotine had been fixed. They had had no time to consider it, for the knife was falling, and they could hear its clang; and under such embarrassing and unnerving circumstances they were unable to give proper attention to so far-reaching a proposal.

SIR WILLIAM TOMLINSON (Preston)

said the arguments which had been put forward obviously had no relation to the words the Committee was considering, for the only meaning of the words was to leave the trustees with the discretion which the trust deed gave them.

(3.0.) MR. CORRIE GRANT (Warwickshire, Rugby)

said the original bargain made by the Government was that the denominational managers were to bear the cost of structural repairs. Now there was another proposal that the local authority should pay the rent of the master's house, of which they heard nothing before. On that side an Amendment was put down that those School Board parishes which had built masters' houses out of loans should also have this contribution, but the Government closured that Amendment. Now they had another revelation to the effect that the trustees were to have a discretion to spend on repairs money winch had been left for the education of the children. The result would be that there would be no bargain at all; the denominational managers would get everything, and people who had left money to benefit the parish would have their money twisted and diverted to denominational purposes. There had recently been published in Warwickshire a list of educational endowments, and the gentleman who prepared it said that there were sixty-five parishes altogether, and in a great many of them the masters' houses, school buildings, as well as the endowments, had been left simply for the purpose of educating the children of the village independently of the Church altogether.

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

said that as regarded the discretion of the managers he had stated early in the debate that where the managers had a discretion under the terms of the trust they could exercise it for the benefit of the school. They were bound by the terms of the trust to use the endowment for the benefit of the school, and if they found that certain purposes were adequately met by the local authority, then they might use the money in their hands for other purposes for which the local authority was not responsible, and for which they were responsible, but which were just as essential for the education of the parish as the supply of teachers and other purposes. Surely they had heard enough of the scandalous condition of the school buildings in many country districts. He ventured to say last night that he thought the managers would do not merely a justifiable but a very proper thing if they put all the money they had over in one year away for purposes for which it was not immediately required in order to establish a building fund with a view to an improvement of the school buildings in the future. He did not believe hon. Members opposite would dispute for a moment that that was a most important educational purpose, and would be entirely in consonance with the wishes of the founders.

MR. SAMUEL EVANS

said he was afraid that a good many hon. Members did not know what the Clause meant. They had had a definite utterance from the hon. Baronet the Member for Preston, who said that the discretion of the trustees meant what was contained in the trust deeds. The Secretary to the Board of Education now said that it meant the discretion of the trustees to apply certain money for what they considered to be proper educational purposes, and if they considered that the educational purposes were properly supplied by the local authority, then they could use their discretion with reference to the disposal of the money within the terms of the trust deed. But by this Bill the education authority was bound to supply all the educational requirements, and therefore wherever there was an endowment given for the general support of the school, or to be devoted to general education, they gave the managers the first grip of that money for the purpose of doing the repairs, or else of laying it by for building Suppose they had an income of £50 from an endowment in perfectly general terms for the general support of the school, or to be devoted generally for the purposes of education. If only £20 were necessary the managers could take that £20 and say, "We have a discretion in this matter, and we will place the other £30 to a building fund to he used next year." That was the meaning of this Clause. That was the reason for the alteration of this Clause. The Bishop of London shed some light upon this question at the recent meeting in the Albert Hall. He said that the weak spot of their bargain was the repairs, and lie implored them to try what they could do in the House of Lords to deal with this difficulty. What a terrible thing it would be," said the Bishop, "if many schools were compelled to close their doors from sheer inability to need their expenses after all this trouble and care with reference to the Education Bill. He thought that speech furnished the reason for the Clause. The bargain was now being departed from. The real meaning of this Clause was that they wanted to give the managers the right to put their hands into the endowments in order to relieve them of a burden which they pretended ought to be placed upon them by this Bill.

MR. OSMOND WILLIAMS (Merionethshire)

said that charities and endowments had been diverted from their original channels, and had been used in support of voluntary schools. He could give as an instance the Towyn Charity, which was in no way a Church charity, which had for many years been used to carry on Church schools. This charity was originally left for the poor, but there being practically no poor in that small township for which it was left, the Commissioners, by a decree, diverted it to two Church schools. The Joint Education Committee drafted a scheme which the Charity Commissioners printed and approved of. It went on to the Education Department, and while it was there the Duke of Devonshire was petitioned by the clergy not to proceed with the publication of the scheme, and he yielded. Consequently the children had had no benefit, but the clergy simply had to find £40 less. There was no mention in the Bill of such income, and if it was not dealt with the result would be that the parsons would still be getting £40 per annum, which presumably they might use as they pleased for either maintenance or repairs. It would be a shame if parsons were allowed to receive endowments intended for the poor and utilise them for purposes which in no way benefited the public.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

There appear to be some extraordinary misconceptions about this Clause. The hon. Gentleman opposite has quoted the speech of the Bishop of London, and mentioned something about a bargain. I know nothing about any such bargain. I have made no bargain, and that is a phrase which I absolutely decline to recognise. This proposal deals with endowments, and the whole object of the Clause is to make provision in the case where the existing endowment makes no provision. Where the existing endowment makes provision we leave the discretion wholly unaltered, but it is possible under the Bill that a ease may arise with which it is impossible for the trustees to deal, and we therefore provide in this Clause a very simple remedy to deal with it. If the trust deeds give the discretion now to distribute the money they retain it, and if they have not got it we give it to them. The hon. Member asks whether this Bill is intended to restore to the public or the poor or to the rich money which has been improperly diverted. If it has been improperly diverted go to the Law Courts and get it put right. This Bill is not intended to survey and reform, so far as reform is required, the whole field of endowments. Other Acts have been passed for the purpose. All we do is not in any sense to revise endowments, but to meet the single case in which the discretion bestowed by law in the trust deeds is interfered with under the Bill.

MR. BRYCE

pointed out that the Bill now made new provision out of the public funds for purposes which the endowments formerly served. That changed the whole thing and put a new face upon it. It enabled the trustees to divert funds which were given for education to the relief of, what? In the first place, of the rates, or, if they pleased, of the subscribers. This was the natural result of this Clause. The object of this proposal was to divert endowments given for the education of the poor and apply them for the relief of the rich.

COLONEL DENNY (Kilmarnock Burghs)

hoped that as a mere Scotchman he would be pardoned for intervening in an English debate, but what he desired was information as to the number of schools affected by the discussion in progress. Judging by the anxiety displayed by the hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs and the hon. and learned Member below him, one would think that if not the whole, at any rate the great majority, of the voluntary schools in this country were endowed. He understood that was not so; that out of 14,750 schools or thereabouts only some 2,200 had any endowments at all, therefore upwards of 12,000 schools would still require to provide all repairs out of absolute subscriptions. Then, again, of the 2,200 schools, a certain proportion had their endowments specially devoted to various objects, which would mean the handing of these endowments over to the local education authority, so that when all was said and done the question under discussion only related to a small minority of the schools, and again, in most of these eases, the endowments were of the most paltry description—only a few pounds in many, cases. He did not think, therefore, that the evil was widespread, or that the Government merited the condemnation that had been showered upon them.

MR. JOHN WILSON (Durham, Mid)

said he wished to call the attention of the Secretary of the Education Department to two charities which were referred to in the reports made to the Charity Commissioners in connection with an inquiry held in every parish wholly or partly within the administrative county of Durham, into endowments subject to the provisions of the Charitable Trusts Acts, 1853 to 1894. He would read the statements of the purposes for which they were left. Those cases would afford an object lesson to show what the Government really meant. The first ease was referred to in these terms:— From the recitals in a Bond bearing date 12th October, 1691, it appears that the Rev. Henry Greswold gave £100 to John Raine, Henry Eden, Cuthbert Swainston and Cuthbert Raine, to be laid out in the purchase of lands or an annuity, the profits to be paid towards a yearly salary for the schoolmaster of Gainford, for teaching the poor children of the said parish.…Forthis payment [the yearly interest] the schoolmaster instructs in reading, writing, and accounts, six children recommended by the churchwardens, from any part of the parish, exclusively of the chapelry of Barnard Castle. He asked the Secretary of the Board of Education to state whether this money, which was left for a specific purpose, would now be devoted to the repair or renovation of the school. If it was justly applied in harmony with the view of the donor it ought to be applied to the teacher's salary. The other case referred to in the report was as follows:— William Dent, the elder of Brightwell, in the county of Berkshire, clockmaker, by Indenture of Lease and Release, dated .29th and 30th April, 1706, assigned, released and confirmed to John. Dent and William Dent the younger, their heirs and assigns, two several messuages or tenements and premises, situate in Cost Street, within the parish of Stepney, and County of Middlesex, in trust, for the educating of such poor boys as should be born in the town of Barnard Castle, in the bishopric of Durham, with power to sell the same premises, and to lay out the produce of such sale in purchasing other houses or lands of the like value in the county of York or bishopric of Durham.… The sum of £133 is now in the hands of Miss Lee of Staindrop, daughter of the late Sir John Lee, into whose hands it probably came as connected with the family of Huchinson. Miss Lee pays £5 6s. 8d. yearly, as the interest. For many years she paid this sum to William Lonsdale, a private schoolmaster in Barnard Castle, teaching in his own house, for which he taught ten boys free. For the last three or four years Lonsdale has been unable to teach school, and Miss Lee has paid the same yearly sum to the treasurer of the National School in Barnard Castle, where ten children, named by the minister and churchwarden, are taught free of any charge. He wished to know how the money in this case was now to be applied. The Report from which he had quoted was full of similar cases. On what principle of justice was the money to be diverted from the purpose for which it was originally left?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

said the very object of this Clause was to prevent the money from being diverted. The obligations of the trustees remained just where they were. The hon. Gentleman need not be in any alarm that the Clause would divert any money from the purposes for which they were intended.

MR. JOHN WILSON

asked the right hon. Gentleman to elaborate the answer and make it plainer. Would he state to what purpose these endowments would be devoted?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

It would be quite impossible and quite improper to answer that question here. It will rest with the Courts of Law to decide whether the money is being properly applied in case of dispute as to any particular trust. It would be perfectly monstrous for us to give any statement on the subject. All that we can do is to leave the trusts as they are.

SIR H. CAMPBELL BANNERMAN (Stirling Burghs)

This is a very old controversy. We are quite familiar with it in the country to which the hon. Member for the Kilmarnock Burghs and I belong. We have had a great deal to do with this very question. The right hon. Gentleman says there is no proposal to divert money from the original purpose, but the case is this. The circumstances are changed by your legislation. Supposing a pious founder leaves a large sum of money for a certain public purpose, which is otherwise not provided for in the parish, that goes on for a great many years, then Parliament says this public purpose shall be the duty of the whole community, and it is so enacted. This public duty is imposed on the whole community throughout the country. What, then, is the effect on the endowment which was given for this particular parish? Simply to relieve the community of the duty which Parliament thinks, and which, by the law of the land, ought to be placed upon them. But in this case there are two different classes of people who will contribute to the maintenance of the school. There are the ratepayers who are for the first time introduced under this Bill, and the other parties to the matter are the denominational subscribers—managers, or whatever you may call them. If there is to be adequate provision by the local education authority for secular education, for the ordinary maintenance of education, and for the maintenance of the school, and if that is prescribed by the Act for all the country in similar cases, then what is to be done with this money? We are told now that it should be handed over to the subscribers to relieve them of the duty [Cries of "No" and "Hear, hear!"] which they undertook and upon their undertaking of which they have been allowed to have the influence they have in this educational matter. The right hon. Gentleman has always been talking of the scheme of the Bill. The scheme of the Bill is this, that because the fabric of the school building belongs in certain cases—some of us don't admit so much—to a Church, therefore that Church is entitled to a certain standing in the administration of the education of the parish, and is entitled to enforce its particular views. That is the whole scheme of the Bill, but if that power is continued or conferred upon the Church and subscribers, and then if the endowments are employed for the purpose of relieving them of some of the obligations they have incurred, you ipso facto invalidate the bargain, notwithstanding what the right hon. Gentleman has said, and the condition on which the whole Bill rests, so far as elementary education is concerned. The right hon. Gentleman has said that this Clause is not to divert endowments, but to continue things as they were. You may continue things as they were, in one sense, but the circumstances to which those arrangements applied have totally changed or passed away.

MR. ELLIS GRIFFITH (Anglesey)

said he had some sympathy with the Bishop of London, who was under the impression that he had made a bargain. It showed the danger Spiritual Peers might fall into when they spoke in commercial metaphors. The real essence of the matter was this. There was £120,000 of public money to be given for public purposes in those different parishes. Under this Bill, the circumstances would be entirely different. It was quite true that in future they would be devoted to educational purposes, on the basis that the Church of England got four-sixths of the management For this it would contribute the building rent free, and keep it in repair. His complaint was that this public education money in future would be used for private denominational ends. If the Church people made a bargain, let them keep it. The Parliamentary Secretary said they could put their money by. Yes, but don't let them put by public money. This was a very important matter. It was another example of how the Church of England was going back upon its bargain. They had got all that they bargained for, but they were not giving all they bargained to give. He thought if the Committee had a free hand they would be anxious that this public money should not serve denominational ends, as it did under the Clause as it stood.

MR. JAMES HOPE (Sheffield, Brightside)

said that so far as he knew the denominational managers repudiated the idea

that they had entered into any bargain. What they said was that terms had been imposed on them by the Government, and they thought the terms were hard. They were not satisfied with them at first, and they were not satisfied with them now.

MR. HERBERT LEWIS (Flint Boroughs),

called attention to a charity in a parish which he knew, the greater part of which was to be devoted to educational purposes. It was originally founded by a Nonconformist, but it had now, after being in the Court of Chancery, become connected with the Church of England. In that case, what was to be done with the money? How was the money to be spent for educational purposes? The county would be responsible for maintaining the school, and that being so, the money should only be used for repair of the school building, which would not be required for twenty or thirty years. The population was not likely to increase, and the money would accumulate. Surely it was roost unfair that in regard to a great number of parishes the money should be used for relieving existing subscribers. If his right hon. friend went to a division he would support him.

(3.30.) Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 172; Noes, 93. (Division List No. 542.)

AYES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte	Campbell, Rt Hn. J. A. (Glasgow	Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Carew, James Laurence	Fardell, Sir T. George
Arkwright, John Stanhope	Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.	Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward
Arrol, Sir William	Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)	Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J. (Manch'r
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John	Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire	Finch, George H.
Bain, Colonel James Robert	Cayzer, Sir Charles William	Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Baird, John George Alexander	Cecil, Evelyn (Ashton Manor)	Fisher, William Hayes
Balcarres, Lord	Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)	FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J.(Manch'r	Chamberlain, Rt Hn J. A. (Worc.	Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)	Chapman, Edward	Flannery, Sir Fortescue
Balfour, Rt Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds	Clive, Captain Percy A.	Flower, Ernest
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christeh.	Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.	Forster, Henry William
Bartley, George C. T.	Coddington, Sir William	Foster, Philip S. (Warwick S.W.
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin	Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Gardner, Ernest
Bentinck, Lord Henry C.	Cranborne, Viscount	Garfit, William
Bignold, Arthur	Cubitt, Hon. Henry	Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans
Blundell, Colonel Henry	Dalrymple, Sir Charles	Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick
Bond, Edward	Denny, Colonel	Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-	Dewar, Sir T.R.(Tower Hamlets)	Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon
Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn	Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph	Goschen, Hon. George Joachim
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu	Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.	Goulding, Edward Alfred
Brotherton, Edward Allen	Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	Graham, Henry Robert
Brymer, William Ernest	Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin	Greene, Sir E. W (B'ry SEdm'nds
Bull William James	Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart	Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.
Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.	Maxwell Rt Hn Sir H E(Wigt'wn	Sharpe, William Edward T.
Hardy , Laurence(Kent, Ashford	Milvain, Thomas	Simeon, Sir Barrington
Hare, Thomas Leigh	More, Robt Jasper (Shropshire)	Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)
Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley	Morrell, George Herbert	Smith, H.C (North'mb. Tyneside
Heaton, John Henniker	Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer	Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)
Helder, Augustus	Muntz, Sir Philip A.	Spear, John Ward
Higginbottom, S. W.	Murray, Rt Hn. A. Graham (Bute	Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Hoare, Sir Samuel	Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)	Stock, James Henry
Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.	Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)	Stroyan, John
Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside	Myres, William Henry	Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry	Nicholson, William Graham	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil	Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay	Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Hutton, John (Yorks, N.R.)	Parker, Sir Gilbert	Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Jebb, Sir Richard (Claverhouse	Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard	Tully, Jasper
Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred	Platt-Higgins, Frederick	Valentia, Viscount
Kemp, George	Plummer, Walter R.	Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp	Walker, Col. William Hall
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop	Pretyman, Ernest George	Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.
Knowles, Lees	Pryce-Jones Lt.-Col. Edward	Wanklyn, James Leslie
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)	Purvis, Robert	Warde, Colonel C. E.
Lawson, John Grant	Pym, C. Guy	Welby, Lt. -Col. A. C. E (Taunton
Lecky, Rt. Hon. William Edw. H	Randles, John S.	Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage	Rankin, Sir James	Willox, Sir John Archibald
Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.	Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge	Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Llewellyn, Evan Henry	Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson	Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
Lockie, John	Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)	Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine	Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)	Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart-
Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham	Ropner, Colonel Robert	Wylie, Alexander
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.	Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter	Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Loyd, Archie Kirkman	Round, Rt. Hon. James	Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft	Royds, Clement Molyneux
Macdona, John Cumming	Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)	Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinb'rgh, W	Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)	Sir Alexander Acland-Hood
M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)	Seely, Maj. J.E.B. (Isle of Wight	and Mr. Anstruther.
NOES.
Allan, Sir William (Gateshead)	Griffith, Ellis J.	Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)
Allen, Charles P. (Glouc., Stroud	Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Barlow, John Emmott	Harwood, George	Runciman, Walter
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)	Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-	Samuel, Herbert L (Cleveland)
Bell, Richard	Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.	Shackleton, David James
Brigg, John	Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.	Shipman, Dr. John G.
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)	Holland, Sir William Henry	Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Burt, Thomas	Horniman, Frederick John	Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Buxton, Sydney Charles	Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)	Soares, Ernest J.
Caldwell, James	Jacoby, James Alfred	Spencer, Rt Hn C. R. (Northants
Cameron, Robert	Jones David Brynmor (Swansea	Stevenson, Francis S.
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Lambert, George	Strachey, Sir Edward
Causton, Richard Knight	Langley, Batty	Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Cawley, Frederick	Layland-Barratt, Francis	Tennant, Harold John
Channing, Francis Allston	Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington	Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Cremer, William Randal	Leng, Sir John	Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings
Dalziel, James Henry	Lewis, John Herbert	Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)	Lloyd-George, David	Wallace, Robert
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan	Logan, John William	Wason, Eugene
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.	Lough, Thomas	Weir, James Galloway
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles	Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.	White, George (Norfolk)
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)	M'Kenna, Reginald	White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Duncan, J. Hastings	Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe	Whiteley, George (York, W.R.)
Edwards, Frank	Morley, Charles (Breconshire)	Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Emmott, Alfred	Morley, Rt. Hon John (Montrose	Williams, Osmond (Merioneth.
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)	Palmer, Sir Charles M.(Durham	Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond	Paulton, James Mellor	Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)	Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden	Yoxall, James Henry
Furness, Sir Christopher	Philipps, John Wynford
Goddard, Daniel Ford	Rea, Russell	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Grant, Corrie	Reckitt, Harold James	Mr. Herbert Gladstone and
Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick)	Rigg, Richard	Mr. William M'Arthur.

(3.43.) MR. GEORGE WHITE (Norfolk, N.W.)

said he wished to move, as an Amendment, "Provided that no part of the income of the endowment should be devoted to the payment of such repairs as under this Act are to be paid by the managers, provided also that."

THE CHAIRMAN

said that the Amendment of the hon. Member was really an objection to the whole Clause. The object of the Clause was to enable the money to be used for "other purposes," and it had been discussed the previous day and this day on that ground.

MR. BRYCE

said that surely there were many other purposes covered by the words besides that purpose—such as scholarships or improvements in the school in other ways.

THE CHAIRMAN

said that the proposed Amendment raised the point which they had been discussing for two days.

MR. BRYCE

said that what they had been discussing were the possibilities of the application of the money to other purposes, among which repairs might find a place. But it was not in the Clause; it was merely suggested that the trustees at their discretion might spend the money on something besides repairs.

THE CHAIRMAN

said that the discussion ranged round the point that part of the money might be used by the trustees for the purpose of forming a building fund. Now the hon. Member for North West Norfolk proposed to say that no part of the money should be used for hat purpose.

MR. BRYCE

said that many of the endowments were of considerable amount—much larger than could be exhausted by repairs—and, therefore, it was clear that they must refer to many cases besides repairs.

THE CHAIRMAN

Then, under the Clause, the balance will go to the local education authority. The money will be apportioned between the local education authority and certain expenses which the managers will have to incur; and the only expenses they will have to incur will be for the upkeep of the school buildings.

MR. GEORGE WHITE

said that the Government did not understand the Clause in that way, because, instead of handing the money over to the local education authority, the managers claimed to have the right to retain it.

THE CHAIRMAN

I cannot conceive any discussion on the hon. Member's Amendment which would differ in the slightest degree from the discussion the Committee has had.

MR. GEORGE WHITE

said he quite, agreed as far as the discussion was concerned; but he presented a concrete proposal.

THE CHAIRMAN

I cannot accept a number of Amendments raising the same point.

MR. MIDDLEMORE (Birmingham, N.)

asked if it was not a point of whether the Chair was to rule in this House or not.

MR. HERBERT LEWIS

said that the managers might wish to have a better equipment than the county authority deemed themselves justified in sanctioning. In that and other ways, the managers might desire to spend the money.

THE CHAIRMAN

It is possible that the words of the hon. Member's Amendment may be better than the words of the Amendment which has been rejected. It is not, however, for me to choose. All I say is that it appears to me that a discussion on the hon. Member's Amendment must cover precisely the same ground which has been already covered: and, for that reason, I am obliged to rule the Amendment out of order.

MR. SAMUEL EVANS

said the Amendment he desired to move was short, was easily understood, and had not been covered by any previous discussion. It was to insert in line 2, after "where" the words "after the first day of January, 1901." His object was to fix the trust deeds and the provisions affecting endowments in the condition in which they were on January 1st, 1901. He moved his Amendment for this reason. During the course of last year the Bill was being negotiated by the bishops and Convocation on the one hand and the Government on the other. It was perfectly fair to say that the Bill was on the tapis during the whole of last year; and, therefore, the matter ought to be discussed from the position in which it was at the beginning of last year. That was why he proposed to fix a date. He might be asked why he put in any limiting words at all, and he would answer that it was because of the speech of tire Bishop of London on Friday last. Hon. Members who wished to understand the inner workings of the Bill should read the speeches of the Bishop of London, the noble Lord the Member for Greenwich, and others at the Albert Hall meeting. The Bishop was dealing with tire Kenyon-Slaney Amendment, and he said he had been advised by competent authority—the noble Lord the Member for Greenwich let the eat out of the bag by saying that lie had been advised by the Government—that the trust deeds would not be changed, and that, where there was an appeal to the bishops, that appeal would still lie. Then the Lord Bishop said that he pressed that schools which had no trust deeds should have an opportunity of having trust deeds on the lines of the old trust deeds, before the Bill came into operation. The suggestion of the Bishop was that there should be new trust deeds, or altered trust deeds, in order that there might be an appeal to the bishops; but he thought that trust deeds ought not to be altered with a view to this Bill. They ought to remain as they were before tire Bill was introduced. It might be said that a trust deed could not be altered. In many cases trust deeds could not be altered; but in cases where the donor was still alive they could, in certain circumstances, be altered. They ought, however, to take the position as it was on the 1st January, 1901, without any manipulation of the trust deeds; and no opportunity should be given of altering the status quo with a view to legislation.

Amendment proposed— In line 2, after the word 'where,' to insert the words 'on the first day of January, nineteen hundred and one.'"—(Mr. Samuel Evans.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

said that the hon. Gentleman had discussed the speech of the Bishop of London, the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman for the Newport Division of Shropshire, and the Albert Hall meeting; but he had not said much with regard to the new Clause, which had nothing whatever to do with the Kenyon-Slaney Amendment. The Hon. Gentleman seemed to think that it was within the power of anyone, after a trust had been founded, to alter it at a moment's notice.

MR. SAMUEL EVANS

said his statement was directly opposite to that.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

said he did not think that there was any case in which the deed could be altered, and, in cases where the deed could not be altered, the hon. Gentleman admitted that his Amendment was unnecessary. He presumed the Bishop of London was referring to cases where there were no trust deeds; but, whether he was or was not, the Bishop was not a legal authority, and never posed as a legal authority. He was not aware that it was possible in any case to alter a trust deed, unless there was a provision in it enabling a modification to be made. If there were such a provision it ought to remain. He doubted whether there was any such case; but supposing it was theoretically possible for a man to put money in trust with a provision enabling him to alter the trust deed, it should remain in that modification. If a donor deliberately intended that lie should have power to modify the trust, why should be be deprived of that power? If no such power were embodied in a trust, then the trust could not be altered, and the hon. Gentlemen's Amendment would have no practical effect. In these circumstances he hoped the Hon. Gentleman would not press it further.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

said he did not think that the Amendment would be so futile in its character as the right hon. Gentleman seemed to imagine. Analogous cases arose under the Burials Act. It very often happened that a piece of land was given by the squire of the parish for educational purposes, or as a burial ground. A deed was not prepared, because it was not regarded as necessary; and the ground was utilized for the purpose for which it was given. Then an Act of Parliament was introduced, which was regarded as curtailing the privileges and prerogatives of the clergy of the parish. They discovered that there was no trust deed; and they went to the donor or his heir and said: "Will you make a trust deed in the form we require?" He would give a case in point, which came before the Court of Appeal, and, therefore, the facts were judicially established. A piece of land was given for burial purposes; no trust deed was prepared, as it was not regarded as necessary; and a great deal of parochial money was expended in fencing. The Burials Act came in, and the clergyman of the parish went to the landowner and said: "We want a trust deed;" and a trust deed was prepared, under which the Dean of Bangor, the Archdeacon of the district, and the rural Dean deprived the parish of the property on which parochial money had been spent. What was to prevent similar transactions being carried out under the present Bill? He had been examining the Charity Commissioners' report on charities in Wales; and he found—he would not say the majority, but a great number—of trusts for educational purposes had no deeds at all, because they were not regarded as necessary. Now that the time had come for carrying out the suggestion of the Bishop of London, the Prime Minister had repudiated it. The right hon. Gentleman came down to the House, and, in a speech which was made after advice, said that this was the authentic interpretation of the Kenyon-Slaney Clause—that they must get new trust deeds. That was what the Government wanted, and what had been done in several cases until it was stopped by the Courts of Law. What had been done with regard to the Burials Acts could be done with regard to these endowments. The Government were prepared to take "first use and wont" with regard to these endowments for their own purposes, and those opposed to the Government wished to do the same for their purpose. If these endowments had been devoted to educational purposes, why should they be diverted into another channel now? After all, the landowner was the arbiter; he could direct at any time what the trust should be. He simply had to say to the clergyman: "We want a trust deed," and the clergyman had it drawn as he wished. The local squire knew perfectly well that if in the future the endowment was used for the repair of the fabric and for building, he would be relieved in pocket pro tanto, and he naturally would prefer to see it used for that purpose. What they wished was that it should be made impossible for the trust to be diverted from the purpose for which it was originally intended. He knew of one endowment which was given for education, reading and writing, and "teaching Christian principles." It was a sectarian endowment. The Christian principles meant in that case the principles of the Church of England, but reading and writing came first. What would happen now? There was no trust deed, but the Squire, who represented the original donor, would soon discover that it was necessary to have a trust deed. He would have the bishop's sanction. The Bishop of London would tell him he must do it, and everyone in the Church of England obeyed the Bishop except the clergy, and although reading and writing were put first in that endowment it would all be used in the future for the repair of the fabric and for setting up a Church of England Sunday-school. The ratepayer would be no better off. So long as the ratepayers were not bankrupt the rate could be used for repairing the fabric. Where were the agricultural objectors? They were constantly talking about the burdens on the rates, and here they were allowing endowments to the extent of £120,000 to be taken away from the relief of the rates for a purely sectarian purpose. But no one had any confidence in the agricultural party since, if he might use the phrase without any Parliamentary breach of order, Mr. Chaplin's flying squadron of agriculturists ran away on the fight of the one half or one quarter. The agricultural party would see now that the rates were used to keep up the fabric, and the farmer, who was so heavily burdened by the rates, would see this £120,000 devoted to what were called Christian principles, and reading and writing would be left to care of themselves.

(4.8.) Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 100; Noes, 199. (Division List No. 543.)

AYES.
Abraham William (Rhondda)	Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	Rigg, Richard
Allan, Sir William (Gateshead	Harwood, George	Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Allen, Charles P. (Glouc., Stroud	Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-	Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Ashton, Thomas (Gair	Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.	Runciman, Walter
Barlow, John Emmott	Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.	Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Barran, Rowland Hirst	Holland, Sir William Henry	Shackleton, David James
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)	Horniman, Frederick John	Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Bell, Richard	Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)	Shipman, Dr. John G.
Brigg, John	Jacoby, James Alfred	Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Brown, George E. (Edinburgh	Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea	Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James	Kearley, Hudson E.	Soares, Ernest J.
Burt, Thomas	Lambert, George	Spencer, Rt. Hn. C.R (Northants
Buxton, Sydney Charles	Langley, Batty	Stevenson, Francis S.
Caldwell, James	Layland-Barratt, Francis	Strachey, Sir Edward
Cameron, Robert	Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington	Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Leng, Sir John	Tennant, Harold John
Causton, Richard Knight	Lewis, John Herbert	Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)
Cawley, Frederick	Lloyd-George, David	Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.
Channing, Francis Allston	Logan, John William	Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr
Cremer, William Randal	Lough, Thomas	Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings
Dalziel, James Henry	Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.	Wallace, Robert
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)	M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)	Wason, Eugene
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.	M'Kenna, Reginald	Weir, James Galloway
Dilke, Rt Hon. Sir Charles	Mansfield, Horace Rendall	White, George (Norfolk)
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)	Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe	White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Duncan, J. Hastings	Markham, Arthur Basil	Whiteley, George (York, W. R.
Edwards, Frank	Middlemore, John Throgmort'n	Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Emmott, Alfred	Morley, Charles (Breconshire)	Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund	Morley, Rt Hon. John (Montrose	Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)	Norton, Capt. Cecil William	Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Gladstone, Rt. Hn Herbert John	Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham	Yoxall, James Henry
Goddard, Daniel Ford	Paulton, James Mellor
Grant, Corrie	Philipps, John Wynford	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick	Rea, Russell,	Mr. Samuel Evans and
Griffith, Ellis J.	Reckitt, Harold James	Mr. Trevelyan.

NOES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte	Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)	Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel	Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)	Godson, Sir Agustus Frederick
Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden	Chamberlain, Rt Hn J.A (Worc.	Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'ml'ts
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Chapman, Edward	Gore, Hn C.R.C. Ormsby-(Salop
Arrol, Sir William	Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.	Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John	Coddington, Sir William	Goschen, Hon. George Joachim
Bailey, James (Walworth)	Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Goulding, Edward Alfred
Bain,, Colonel James Robert	Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)	Graham,, Henry Robert
Baird, John George Alexander	Cripps, Charles Alfred	Greene, Sir EW (B'ryS Edm'nds
Balcarres, Lord	Dalrymple, Sir Charles	Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J.(Manch'r	Denny, Colonel	Grenfell, William Henry
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)	Dickson, Charles Scott	Gretton, John
Balfour, Rt Hn. Gerald W(Leeds	Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-	Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.
Balfour, Kenneth R.(Christch.	Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph	Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.
Bartley, George C. T.	Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin	Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin	Hare, Thomas Leigh
Bentinck, Lord Henry C.	Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton	Harris, Frederick Leverton
Beresford, Lord Charles William	Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas	Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.	Faber, George Denison (York)	Heaton, John Henniker
Bignold, Arthur	Fardell, Sir T. George	Helder, Augustus
Blundell, Colonel Henry	Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward	Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.
Bond, Edward	Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J.(Manc'r	Higginbottom, S. W.
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-	Finch, George H.	Hoare, Sir Samuel
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu	Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne	Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.
Brotherton, Edward Allen	Fisher, William Hayes	Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside
Brymer, William Ernest	Fison, Frederick William	Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry
Burdett-Coutts, W.	FitzGerald, Sir Robt. Penrose-	Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil
Campbell, Rt Hn. J.A.(Glasgow	Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon	Hudson, George Bickersteth
Carew, James Laurence	Flannery, Sir Fortescue	Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.)
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.	Flower, Ernest	Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse
Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton	Forster, Henry William	Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)	Foster, Philip S.(Warwick, S.W.	Kemp, George
Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire	Gardner, Ernest	Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.
Cayzer, Sir Charles William	Garfit, William	Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh)

Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W.(Salop.	Nicholson, William Graham	Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset
Kimber, Henry	Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay	Stock, James Henry
Knowles, Lees	Parker, Sir Gilbert	Stroyan, John
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)	Percy, Earl	Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)	Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Lawson, John Grant	Platt-Higgins, Frederick	Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Lecky, Rt Hon. William Edw, H.	Plummer, Walter R.	Thornton, Percy M.
Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp	Tomlinson, Sir Win. Edw. M.
Leigh Bennett, Henry Currie	Pretyman, Ernest George	Tritton, Charles Ernest
Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.	Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward	Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Llewellyn, Evan Henry	Purvis, Robert	Tuke, Sir John Batty
Lockie, John	Pym, C. Guy	Valentia, Viscount
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine	Randles, John S.	Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham	Rankin, Sir James	Walker, Col. William Hall
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.	Ridley, Hon. M. W (Stalybridge	Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.
Loyd, Archie Kirkman	Ritchie, Rt Hon Chas. Thomson	Wanklyn, James Leslie
Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)	Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)	Warde, Colonel, C. E.
Macdona, John Cumming	Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)	Welby, Lt-Col. A.C.E.(Taunt'n
M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)	Ropner, Colonel Robert	Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W	Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter	Whitmore, Charles Algernon
M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)	Round, Right Hon. James	Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Manners, Lord Cecil	Royds, Clement Molyneux	Willox, Sir John Archibald
Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H.E (Wigt'n	Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-	Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Milvain, Thomas	Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander	Wilson, J.W.(Worcestersh. N.)
Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)	Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)	Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.
More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)	Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight	Wodehouse, Rt. Hon. E. R. (Bath
Morgan, David J (Walthamst'w	Sharpe, William Edward T.	Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Morrell, George Herbert	Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew	Wylie, Alexander
Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer	Simeon, Sir Barrington	Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Muntz, Sir Philip A.	Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)
Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute	Smith, HC (North'mb. Tyneside
Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)	Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath	Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)	Sir Alexander Acland-
Myers, William Henry	Spear, John Ward	Hood and Mr. Anstruther

(4.21) MR. SOARES (Devonshire,) Barnstaple

moved the substitution of the words "original trusts" for the words "trusts or other provisions." The object of the Amendment was to render to Cæsar the things that were Cæsar's, and at the same time to prevent Cæsar annexing the property of other people. Many elementary denominational schools enjoyed incomes from charities to which they were not entitled by the terms of the trust deeds. The position had arisen through the partial or total failure of the objects of the trust. When such a failure happened the trustees went to Charity Commissioners for a scheme, and usually the education of the district was decided upon as being a laudable object to which the money might be devoted. In days gone by, the Charity Commissioners, when maturing schemes with regard to trusts of that nature, had been more influenced by the question of education than by denominational zeal; otherwise, instead of giving the money to the managers, they would have given it direct to the rector and the church-wardens. But if the Clause were carried in its present form, the income arising from such trusts would he divided into two portions, one going to the maintenance of the school, and the other being claimed by the manager for the repairs. That, in his opinion, would be an entirely improper state of affairs, because it had to be remembered that all the money spent by the managers under the Bill would be spent on denominational purposes, whereas the money under these trusts was not originally left for such purposes. By this Clause the aim of the pious founder would not be carried out, nor would the schemes of the Charity Commissioners be strictly complied with. When these schemes the were framed, the Charity Commissioners could not possibly have anticipated that the whole of the maintenance of the elementary schools would be paid out of public funds; therefore it was not fair that the income from these trusts should be divided in the manner he had indicated. Since 1870, all such trusts had been devoted to secondary education, but prior to 1870 there were a great many applied to elementary education. He could not say the amount of money that was involved, as the Charity Commissioners were too busy to supply a Return, but that was simply another instance of the way in which the Committee were legislating in the dark on this Bill. The proposal of the Government afforded a further illustration of the efforts of the denominations to get hold of money out of the public purse. They had been foiled in their attempts to get the school fees, and to avoid their liability for the repairs of the schoolhouse, but they had succeeded in getting the rents of the schoolmasters' houses towards the cost of repairs, and he was afraid that under this Clause they would succeed in getting for denominational purposes money which was never intended to be so used.

Amendment proposed.— In line 2, to leave out the words 'trusts or other provisions,' and insert the words 'original trusts.'"—(Mr. Soares.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part, of the Clause."

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

said that if he rightly understood the object of the hon. Member's Amendment it was of a somewhat alarming character. It was proposed to go behind the Charity Commissioners and the Education Department for the last, thirty or thirty-three years, to rip up all the schemes made in that period, and, so far as was possible to work the schemes of the original trusts into the arrangement of tins Clause. He really thought it a monstrous proposition. He could not at the moment state the amount of money involved, but there were at least 1500 elementary schools working under schemes made since 1869, and the pro-position that at this period of the discussion, and in a Bill already so large and complicated, they should undo the work of the Commissioners who had been working all this time for the benefit of education, was one which he could hardly think the hon. Member was serious in putting before the Committee.

MR. M'KENNA (Monmouthshire, N.)

said the right hon. Gentleman had forgotten that this alarming proposition was contained in the Clause which they were now discussing, for it proposed in the case of all, those elementary schools to rip up the schemes and alter them to the extent suggested under this Clause. The hon. Member was proposing now to do something which was quite different to the schemes under the Charity Commissioners—and this proposal was merely an Amendment of the scheme suggested by the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Board of Education in his own Clause. He did not think the hon. Gentleman had done justice to the Amendment moved by his hon. friend. Hitherto the Charity Commissioners had been called in to make new schemes where others had failed, but now it appeared that the schemes of the Charity Commissioners had also failed and it was necessary to provide something fresh. His hon. friend asked that in making this fresh provision they should go back again to the intentions of the pious founders and not hold themselves bound by the schemes of the Charity Commissioners. To those who looked upon the public interest and the interest of the Church of England as one and the same thing, an Amendment of this sort, of course, would not commend itself, but they ought to look to the public interest apart from the Church of England. They should ask that these trusts, intended to further some public object, now that they were being ripped up, should once again be considered, and, having regard to the intentions of the pious founders, should be used for some public interest and not necessarily for the Church of England interest. Where the Church of England had been the sole supporter of education in a parish this might be reasonable, but the Church of England no longer occupied that position, because the public had come in, and it was, therefore, reasonable that the trusts should be reconsidered and devoted to purposes purely public.

DR. MACNAMARA

said he found himself in complete disagreement with the Amendment of his hon. friend. The effect of this Amendment would be to go back to the original schemes, and in many cases the original purposes of the trusts had fallen into desuetude. The Charity Commissioners, although he did not agree with all they did, had modernised the trusts on fairly commonsense lines, and the bulk of the money affected was now applied to the purposes of education. Therefore, to go back to the original purposes seemed to him to be not a very practical proposal and it would rob elementary education of something like £100,000 a year. That being so he could not support the Amendment.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

said he agreed with the Amendment of his hon. friend in favour of the pious founders. They said that this money should be given to the poor. If they diverted this money into its original channel, where did they rob education? All they said was that the ratepayers who could afford to pay should bear the burden of education; and that, to the extent to which they lost the endowment, that money should be made up out of the rates. On the other hand they would be giving by this Amendment to the people who could not afford to pay rates—that was the poorest of the poor in the district—money which was originally given to ameliorate their misery. Take the case of the charity he had referred to, given for the purpose of erecting cottages for the poor. By some mysterious process the Charity Commissioners had diverted that money to pay a sewing mistress. That was no doubt an excellent purpose, but it was not the object for which the charity was established. What would happen under this Amendment? They would get back to the old principle of cottage homes. Would the sewing class suffer? No, for it would be just the reverse, because the rates would pay for a sewing mistress. Why did his hon. friend wish to rob the poor in Wales for the purpose of providing sewing mistresses, for any other purpose? He stood for the pious founders in this matter. He had got an excellent authority in this matter, namely, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bordesley, who some time ago denounced a similar proposal to the one now made by the Government as one which was using money originally given for the poor for the establishment of scholarships and schools; and the right hon. Gentleman went on to say that this was simply robbing the poor. And the right hon. Gentleman the Member of Bordesley was right. He was then denouncing the utilisation of money given for the poor for the purposes of scholastic institutions. He said those charities were the private property of the poor of the country, and if they could show that one single farthing of that money was applied to other purposes it was a robbery of the poor. Now the Government were promoting a Bill for the robbery of the poor. This money was not given for the church organ or for sewing mistresses, or for relieving the rich subscribers to voluntary schools, but for the purposes of the poor, and this proposal now made by the Government was one of the schemed denounced by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bordesley as a gross robbery of the poor. A good many of these endowments included sites and property allotted by the Enclosure Commissioners under the Allotments Act. He knew a case of that kind where the site given was common land which the poor of the parish had a right and freehold in. That land was given for the purpose of a school for any sect or denomination, but for the whole parish. What was done with it? A deed was prepared for it under which it was given to the National Society. This was property which belonged to the whole parish. A Committee of Management was set up, all of whom had to be members of the Church of England. That was an instance of the diversion of trust property from its original purpose. He did not say anything about the particular form of the Amendment, but he was voting for the substance, and he did not cavil at the words of the Amendment like the hon. Member for North Camberwell. His leader in this matter was the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bordesley, and acting upon the great principled he had laid down in this House, he proposed to go into the Lobby to support the Amendment of his hon. friend.

MR. BRYCE

said he did not think his hon. friends were right in supposing that there were many cases in which endowments had been diverted form educational purposes. The Amendment was really directed to cased in which the Charity Commissioners' schemes had sectarianised trusts when this was not intended by the founders. It was from the point of view that he proposed to support the Amendment. It was very difficult for him to raise the question conveniently upon this Amendment, but that was the fault of the conditions under which they were discussing this Bill. If they had had any prospect of dealing with this question by another Clause they would have done so. They had to take such chances as the indulgence of an autocratic Government gave to them, and his hon. friend had taken this opportunity with his Amendment, which submitted to the Committee the fact that there were a good many trusts intended for the parish generally which had been made sectarian in their character. If the Government would propose another Amendment dealing with this injustice, he believed his hon. friend would be willing to withdraw his Amendment, but if they persisted in this non possumus then he would have to divide the Committee.

MR. LOGAN (Leicestershire, Harborough)

asked the Hon. Member not to press the Amendment. It was really not a practical Amendment. He was on a committee that administered an endowment in so far as it related to school purposes, the scheme under which they acted having been sanctioned seven or eight years ago by the Charity Commissioners. If the money were to go to the poor a great deal might be said

for that, although he was inclined to think that the best plan was to pay the poor good wages so that they might be able to find various things for themselves. But that would not be the effect of the Amendment. The pious donor was a very ambitious man, and he believed that it was possible to found a cathedral in a place which had about 300 inhabitants, and he also desired to found a university of music. Therefore if is hon. friend's Amendment were carried the money would have to be diverted to the insane idea of building a cathedral and establishing a university of music in that small place.

MR. SOARES

said his hon. friend did not quite understand the Amendment. In cases where the original object of a trust had been extinguished what would happen would be tins. The Charity Commissioners would have to formulate a new scheme which would not be sectarian or denominational. If the Government would give any indication that they would re-consider the matter he would not divide the Committee, but if he got an absolute non possumus he would take the vote.

(4.48.) Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 218; Noes, 93. (Division List No. 544.).

AYES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte	Brookfield, Colonel Montagu	Cust, Henry John C.
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel	Brotherton, Edward Allen	Dalrymple, Sir Charles
Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden	Brymer, William Ernest	Denny, Colonel
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Burdett-Coutts, W.	Dickson, Charles Scott
Arkwright, John Stanhope	Butcher, John George	Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-
Arrol, Sir William	Campbell, Rt Hn. J. A. (Glasgow	Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John	Carew, James Laurence	Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.
Bailey, James (Walworth)	Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.	Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-
Bain, Col. James Robert	Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton	Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin
Baird, John George Alexander	Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)	Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton
Balcarres, Lord	Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbysh'e)	Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J. (Manch'r	Cayzer, Sir Charles William	Faber, George Denison (York)
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)	Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)	Fardell, Sir T. George
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds	Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)	Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward
Bartley, George C. T.	Chamberlain, Rt Hn J. A (Worc.	Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin	Chapman, Edward	Finch, George H.
Beckett, Ernest William	Charrington, Spencer	Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Bentinck, Lord Henry C.	Clive, Captain Percy A.	Fisher, William Hayes
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.	Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.	Fison, Frederick William
Bignold, Arthur	Coddington, Sir William	FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-
Blundell, Colonel Henry	Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon
Bond, Edward	Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)	Flannery, Sir Fortescue
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-	Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge	Flower, Ernest
Bousfield, William Robert	Cripps, Charles Alfred	Forster, Henry William
Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn	Cubitt, Hon. Henry	Foster, Philip S.(Warwick, S.W
Gardner, Ernest	Lockie, John	Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Garfit, William	Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine	Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)	Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham	Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick	Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.	Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Gordon, Maj Evans- (T'rH'ml'ts	Lowe, Francis William	Seely, Maj. J.E.B. (Isle of Wight
Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop	Loyd, Archie Kirkman	Sharpe, William Edward T.
Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon	Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)	Shaw-Stewart, M.H. (Renfrew)
Goschen, Hon. George Joachim	Macdona, John Cumming	Simeon, Sir Barrington
Goulding, Edward Alfred	M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)	Smith ,Abel H. (Hertford, East)
Graham, Henry Robert	M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)	Smith, H C (North'mb. Tyneside
Greene, Sir E W (B'rt S. Edm'nds	Manners, Lord Cecil	Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.)
Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)	Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H. E (Wigt'n	Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Grenfell, William Henry	Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.	Spear, John Ward
Gretton, John	Middlemore John Throgmorton	Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset
Halsey. Rt. Hon. Thomas F.	Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G.	Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.	Milvain, Thomas	Stock, James Henry
Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd	Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)	Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Hare, Thomas Leigh	More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Harris, Frederick Leverton	Morrell, George Herbert	Talbot, Rt. Hn. J .G.(Oxf'd Univ
Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley	Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer	Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Heaton, John Henniker	Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute	Thornton, Percy M.
Helder, Augustus	Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)	Tomlinson, Sir William Edw. M.
Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.	Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)	Tritton, Charles Ernest
Higginbottom, S. W.	Myers, William Henry	Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Hoare, Sir Samuel	Nicholson, William Graham	Tuke, Sir John Batty
Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.	Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay	Tully, Jasper
Hope, J.F. (Sheffield, Brightside	Parker, Sir Gilbert	Valentia, Viscount
Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry	Percy, Earl	Vincent, Col. Sir C E H (Sheffield
Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)	Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard	Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil	Platt-Higgins, Frederick	Walker, Col. William Hall
Hudson, George Bickersteth	Plummer, Walter R.	Walrond, Rt Hn. Sir William H.
Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.)	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp	Wanklyn, James Leslie
Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse	Pretyman, Ernest George	Warde, Colonel C. E.
Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.	Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward	Welby, Lt.-Col A. C. E (Taunton
Kemp, George	Purvis, Robert	Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.	Pym, C. Guy	Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh)	Quilter, Sir Cuthbert	Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.	Randles, John S.	Willox, Sir John Archibald
Kimber, Henry	Rankin, Sir James	Wilson, John (Glasgow)
King, Sir Henry Seymour	Rattigan, Sir William Henry	Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.)
Knowles, Lees	Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge	Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)	Ritchie, Rt Hon. Chas. Thomson	Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R.(Bath)
Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)	Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)	Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Lawson, John Grant	Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)	Wylie, Alexander
Lecky, Rt. Hn William Edw. H.	Rolleston, Sir John F. L.	Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage	Ropner, Colonel Robert
Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie	Round, Rt. Hon. James	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.	Royds, Clement Molyneux	Sir Alexander Acland-
Llewellyn, Evan Henry	Runciman, Walter	Hood and Mr. Anstruther.
NOES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda)	Duncan, J. Hastings	Lambert, George
Allan, Sir William (Gateshead)	Dunn, Sir William	Langley, Batty
Ashton, Thomas Gair	Edwards, Frank	Layland-Barratt, Francis
Atherley-Jones, L.	Emmott, Alfred	Leng, Sir John
Barlow, John Emmott	Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)	Lewis, John Herbert
Barran, Rowland Hirst	Fenwick, Charles	Lloyd-George, David
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)	Fuller, J. M. F.	Lough, Thomas
Bell, Richard	Furness, Sir Christopher	M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)
Brigg, John	Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John	Mansfield, Horace Rendall
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)	Goddard, Daniel Ford	Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James	Grant, Corrie	Markham, Arthur Basil
Burt, Thomas	Griffith, Ellis J.	Morley, Charles (Breconshire)
Buxton, Sydney Charles	Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose
Caldwell, James	Harwood, George	Moss, Samuel
Cameron, Robert	Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-	Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.	Palmer, Sir Charles M (Durham)
Cawley, Frederick	Holland, Sir William Henry	Paulton, James Mellor
Channing, Francis Allston	Horniman, Frederick John	Philipps, John Wynford
Cremer, William Randal	Hutton, Alfred E. Morley	Pickard, Benjamin
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)	Jacoby, James Alfred	Price, Robert John
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.	Jones, David Brynmor (Sw'nsea	Rea, Russell
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)	Kearley, Hudson E.	Reckitt, Harold James

Rickett, J. Compton	Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)	Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)
Rigg, Richard	Tennant, Harold John	Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.	Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)	Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles	Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.)	Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Schwann, Charles E.	Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr	Yoxall, James Henry
Shackleton, David James	Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings
Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)	Wallace, Robert
Shipman, Dr John G.	Wason, Eugene	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)	Weir, James Galloway	Mr. Soares and Mr.
Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R (Northants	White, George (Norfolk)	Charles Allen.
Strachey, Sir Edward	White, Luke (York, E. R.)

MR. GEORGE WHITELEY (Yorkshire, W. R., Pudsey)

said the proviso put down by the Government meant that there should be no opportunity for the Board of Education or the local authority to come in unless here was in the trust deed power to spend the money, either in whole or in part, for purposes for which the local authority was liable to pay. It retained to the benefit of the manager, that very large class of trust funds under trust deeds which were general in their terms. He could not think that it was the intention of the Government to hand user that large class of trust funds entirely to the discretion of the trustees. If in line three the word "must" was retained instead of "may," it came to this, that whenever a trust gave power to the trustees to apply part or all the income in the payment of the salaries of the teachers or the fees of scholars at any time in connection with the maintenance of the school as distinguished from the repair of the fabric—in these cases there should be a proper inquiry, at which the County Council should have something to say as to what they thought would be a proper distribution of the money the final decision, of course, resting with the Board of Education. The Secretary to the Board of Education had laid down the monstrous doctrine that whenever the least discretion was left to the trustees, say of an income of £100, for the education of the poor in such and such a parish, the trustees could withhold the whole of that money except the small sum for the education of the poor children of the parish. All he wanted was that the County Council should be heard on the one side, and the trustees on the other, the Board of Education being the umpire. He begged the Government and the Committee to consider the Amendment in a favourable spirit. He was quite sure that what he desired to do in the matter of trust funds was to do fair justice to the trustees on the one hand and the county authority on the other. He begged to move as an Amendment.

Amendment proposed— In line 3, to leave out the word 'must,' and insert the word 'may.'"—(Mr. Whiteley.)

Question proposed, "That the word 'must' stand part of the Clause."

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

said that the Amendment really went back on a matter which had already been discussed and which the Committee had decided some time ago. The object of the whole Clause was to keep endowments in their present condition, giving to any body of trustees who had a discretion the right to retain that discretion, but also is taking care that where there was no discretion the money should go in such direction as had been indicated in the trust deed. The hon. Member proposed in every case that the Board of Education should determine in what proportions the sum of money should be spent, partly for the purposes of the local authority, and partly on those of the managers. The Amendment ran counter to the intentions of the Government and could not be accepted. If the money was being improperly hoarded by the managers, there where sufficient means of making them account for it.

MR. CORRIE GRANT

said that this was only another illustration of the method by which the Government were dealing with this question. In the case of endowments where the trustees were fettered and must give the money to the repair of buildings, then the Government did not desire to interfere; but where there was a discretion, the Government came in and enabled the trustees to help educational work in the parish if they chose to do so. His hon. friend said that there were many cases where the trustees were not obliged to use the money for purposes of the voluntary schools, and these trustees should be brought under the same conditions as the class of trustees who were forced to divide.

(5.13) Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 221; Noes, 105. (Division List, No. 545.)

AYES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte	Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas	Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel	Faber, George Denison (York)	Leveson-Gower, Frederick, N.S
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Fardell, Sir T. George	Llewellyn, Evan Henry
Arkwright, John Stanhope	Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward	Lockie, John
Arrol, Sir William	Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r	Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John	Finch, George H.	Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham
Bailey, James (Walworth)	Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne	Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S
Bain, Colonel James Robert	Fisher, William Hayes	Lowe, Francis William
Baird, John George Alexander	Fison, Frederick William	Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Balcarres, Lord	FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-	Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J.(Manch'r	Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon	Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)	Flower, Ernest	Macdona, John Cumming
Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W (Leeds	Forster, Henry William	M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.	Foster, Philip S (Warwick, S W.	M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)
Bartley, George C. T.	Galloway, William Johnson	Manners, Lord Cecil
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin	Gardner, Ernest	Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H. E (Wigt'n
Beckett, Ernest William	Garfit, William	Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.
Bentinck, Lord Henry C.	Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)	Milner, Rt Hon. Sir Frederick G.
Beresford, Lord Chas. William	Godson, Sir Angustus Frederick	Milvain, Thomas
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.	Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets	Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)
Bignold, Arthur	Gore, Hn G. R. C Ormsby-(Salop	More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)
Bigwood, James	Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon	Morrell, George Herbert
Blundell, Colonel Henry	Goulding, Edward Alfred	Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer
Bond, Edward	Graham, Henry Robert	Murray, Rt Hn A .Graham (Bute
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-	Greene, Sir E. W (B'rySEdm'nds	Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Bousfield, William Robert	Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)	Myers, William Henry
Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn)	Gretton, John	Nicholson, William Graham
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John	Guthrie, Walter Murray	Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu	Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.	Percy, Earl
Brotherton, Edward Allen	Hanbury, Rt. Hon, Robert Wm	Pierpoint, Robert
Burdett-Coutts, W.	Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd	Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard
Butcher, John George	Hare, Thomas Leigh	Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A (Glasgow	Harris, Frederick Leverton	Plummer, Walter R.
Carew, James Laurence	Hay, Hon. Claude George	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.	Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley	Pretyman, Ernest George
Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton	Heaton, John Henniker	Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)	Helder, Augustus	Purvis, Robert
Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire	Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.	Quilter, Sir Cuthbert
Cayzer, Sir Charles William	Higginbottom, S. W.	Randles, John S.
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)	Hoare, Sir Samuel	Rankin, Sir James
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)	Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.	Rattigan, Sir William Henry
Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A (Worc.	Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside	Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge
Chapman, Edward	Horner, Frederick William.	Ritchie, Rt Hon. Chas. Thomson
Charrington, Spencer	Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry	Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.	Howard, J.(Midd., Tottenham)	Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Coddington, Sir William	Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil	Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Hudson, George Bickersteth	Ropner, Colonel Robert
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)	Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R)	Round, Rt. Hon. James
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge	Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse	Royds, Clement Molyneux
Cripps, Charles Alfred	Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.	Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Cubitt, Hon. Henry	Johnstone, Heywood	Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Cust, Henry John C.	Kemp, George	Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Dalrymple, Sir Charles	Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.	Seely, Maj. J.E.B. (Isle of Wight
Denny, Colonel	Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T (Denbigh)	Sharpe, William Edward T.
Dickson, Charles Scott	Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.	Simeon, Sir Barrington
Digby, John K.D. Wingfield	Kimber, Henry	Smith, Abel H. (Herford, East)
Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield	King, Sir Henry Seymour	Smith, H. C. (N'th'mb. Tyneside
Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.	Knowles, Lees	Smith, James Parker (Lanarks
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)	Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Duke, Henry Edward	Lawrence, F. (Liverpool)	Spear, John Ward
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin	Lawson, John Grant	Sanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset
Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart	Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)	Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton	Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage	Stock, James Henry
Stone, Sir Benjamin	Vincent, Col. Sir C.E.H (Sh'ffi'ld	Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Strutt, Hon. Chas. Hedley	Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)	Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)
Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)	Walker, Col. William Hall	Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
Talbot, Rt Hn. J. G. (Oxf'dUniv.	Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H	Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath
Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)	Warder Colonel C. E.	Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart-
Thornton, Percy M.	Welby, Lt-Cl. A.C.E. (Taunton	Wylie, Alexander
Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.	Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd	Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Tritton, Charles Ernest	Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne	Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward	Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Tuke, Sir John Batty	Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Tully, Jasper	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord	Sir Alexander Acland-
Valentia, Viscount	Willox, Sir John Archibald	Hood and Mr. Anstruther.
NOES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda)	Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick)	Rickett, J. Compton
Allan, Sir William (Gateshead)	Griffith. Ellis J.	Rigg, Richard
Allen Charles P (Glouc., Stroud	Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)
Ashton, Thomas Gair	Harwood, George	Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Atherley-Jones, L.	Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-	Robson, William Snowdon
Barlow, John Emmott	Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.	Runciman, Walter
Barran, Rowland Hirst	Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.	Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)	Holland, Sir William Henry	Schwann, Charles E.
Brigg, John	Horniman, Frederick John	Shackleton, David James
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)	Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)	Shaw, Charles Edward (Stafford
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James	Jacoby, James Alfred	Shipman, Dr. John G.
Burns, John	Jones, David Brynmor (Sw'nsea	Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Burt, Thomas	Kearley, Hudson E.	Soares, Ernest J.
Buxton, Sydney Charles	Lambert, George	Spencer, Rt Hn. C.R. (Northants
Caldwell, James	Langley, Batty	Strachey, Sir Edward
Cameron, Robert	Layland-Barratt, Francis	Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Leng, Sir John	Tennant, Harold John
Causton, Richard Knight	Lewis, John Herbert	Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)
Channing, Francis Allston	Logan, John William	Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Cremer, William Randal	Lough, Thomas	Thomas, David Alf. (Merthyr)
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)	M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)	Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan	M'Kenna, Reginald	Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.	Mansfield, Horace Rendall	Wallace, Robert
Dilke, R. Hon. Sir Charles	Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe	Wason, Eugene
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)	Markham, Arthur Basil	Weir, James Galloway
Duncan, J. Hastings	Morley, Charles (Breconshire)	White, George (Norfolk)
Dunn, Sir William	Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose	White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Edwards, Frank	Moss, Samuel	Whiteley, George (York, W.R.)
Emmott, Alfred	Norman, Henry	Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone	Norton, Captain Cecil William	Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Evans, Samuel T.(Glamorgan)	Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham	Yoxall, James Henry
Fenwick, Charles	Philipps, John Wynford
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)	Pickard, Benjamin
Fuller, J. M. F.	Price, Robert John	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Furness, Sir Christopher	Priestley, Arthur	Mr. Whitley and Mr.
Gladstone, Rt Hn. Herbert John	Rea, Russell	Corrie Grant.
Goddard, Daniel Ford	Reckitt, Harold James

MR. SAMUEL EVANS

said the object of the Amendment he now proposed to move was to limit the portion of the income from the endowment which was to be paid to the managers, to what he might call the religious or sectarian purposes of the endowment. Such an Amendment, he maintained, was in consonance with the original intentions of tine Government. The right hon. Gentleman had said that the portion of the income which was applicable to teaching religious subjects alone would not be touched. As he understood, the cost of repairs was to be a burden on the managers for ever, in consideration of the benefits they were to receive under this Bill, but if there was found a trust deed telling the managers that a portion or all the income from the endowment was to go to sectarian purposes, it ought not to be taken away from them. Supposing a Roman Catholic donor gave a certain sum by way of an endowment to a school, with a trust providing that the money was to be given for religious instruction only, that was an endowment which could not be touched. But he asked the Committee to say that no further funds should flow into the same channel, and that the portion of an endowment which the founder intended to be devoted to giving ordinary elementary education should be placed in the hands of those who must now provide this education. The result of his Amendment, if carried, as he submitted it ought to be, would be that all the words after the word "applied" in sub-Clause 1, would be omitted. He apologised for the Amendment not being on the Paper, but that was not his fault. Only some twenty-five minutes was available on the previous day for considering this new Clause and drafting Amendments to it, and he had not been able to draft his in time to get it placed upon the Paper. He had, however, handed it in at two o'clock this afternoon, and he hoped its not appearing on the Paper would not be a difficulty in the way of its being accepted.

Amendment proposed— In line 4, to leave out the words from the word 'applied,' to the word 'Education,' in line 11, inclusive, and insert the words 'by the express provisions of the trust in whole or in part exclusively for the purpose of giving instruction in religious subjects in a public elementary school and for no other purpose; the income Or part thereof, as the ease may be, shall be paid to the managers for that purpose, and in all other cases, and subject thereto, the income or the residue thereof, as the case may be, shall be paid to the education authority."—Mr. Samuel Evans.

Question proposed, "That the words 'in whole or in part for' stand part of the Clause."

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

said he did not think the hon. Gentleman could be really serious in his proposal. Under the Bill it was one of the duties of the managers to provide the school-house, and so on. The words "maintenance of the school," when used in a trust deed, were used—not in a narrow, technical sense, but to mean the general up-keep and educational improvement of the school. Surely the fabric was a part of the liabilities thrown upon the managers; and if they were to maintain the school, understanding the phrase in its general sense, the words allowed the trustees the discretion of using the endowment for the building if the money was wanted. What was the meaning of the Amendment? It was that whatever the intention of the donor or the terms of the trust, no money was to be used for the fabric. Money specifically intended by the donor for the fabric, or generally described under the term maintenance, was to be given to the local authority. The Amendment, he thought, overrode the trust deed in a way which was contrary to the spirit and meaning of the Clause proposed by the Government, and, therefore, it could not be accepted.

MR. M'KENNA

said the Amendment was a preface to the first words of the Clause— Nothing in this Act shall affect any endowment, or the discretion of any trustees in respect thereof. It did not limit them; what the Amendment proposed was simply this, that the onus of proof should be placed on the managers to show that the endowment was for religious instruction, instead of, as now, the onus of proof being on the education authority to show that the endowment was for general instruction. If the endowment was not for the giving of religious instruction or for the purposes of the building, then the original words of the Clause came in, but if it was a mixed endowment, somebody ought to decide how much was to go to the managers. All the Amendment of his hon. friend asked was that the board of managers should have to prove that what they claimed was just, and that the amount to which they could not prove themselves entitled in the case of a mixed endowment should be handed over to the local education authority. As matters stood at present, the local education authority had to prove their claim; the Amendment suggested that the onus of proof should be on the other side, and that the managers and not the education authority should be compelled to prove their claim.

MR. CHANNING (Northamptonshire, E.)

said that not only was the Amendment limited by the first words of the Clause, but it was obvious that the greater part of the money which the Amendment suggested should be handed over to the education, authority would, in the ordinary course, be expended by the managers, under the supervision and control of the education authority. All that the Amendment desired was that that part of the endowment which was in express terms to be used for sectarian education should be left unreservedly in the hands of the managers for that purpose, and that the rest of the endowment, which was for the general purposes of education, should be under the supervision and control of the education authority. That, was consistent with the scheme of the Bill as laid again and again before the House and the country by the Government, and, in his opinion, the Amendment was a perfectly rational and reasonable Amendment.

MR. BRYCE

said the Secretary to the Board of Education in his answer had hardly appreciated the dominant idea of his hon. friend the Member for Mid-Glamorgan. His hon. friend in his Amendment was proceeding on a line which the Government had already suggested by the arrangement they had proposed.

MR. CORRIE GRANT

said the answer of the Secretary to the Board of Education that this Amendment was against the spirit of the Clause was not any answer to the House. The whole complaint of the Opposition was that the endowments Clause was contrary to the meaning and spirit of the Bill. The very basis of this Bill was that there were to be two parties to a new arrangement; but the Government throughout the Committee stage had been steadily bringing in mean and niggling Amendments, every one of which was to get rid of the terms of the arrangements with regard to the denominational schools. The question to be considered was what was the fair way of dealing with the new condition of things which was going to be applied to old trust deeds. It was said that this proposal would override the trust deeds. He submitted that this was a case in which these old trust deeds should be overridden, otherwise the managers might seize all this Money for denominational purposes, although it was intended for educational

purposes. A man 200 years ago allocated money for the maintenance of a school. At the time there was no duty on the community to maintain a school. In many parishes no education at all was maintained, and men recognising the necessity and finding it unprovided for, left property, the income from which was to be spent on the maintenance of schools in those villages. But as the duty of providing education was now to be a national duty, did the Government contend that those trust deeds were to be maintained? Obviously, they could not be, as the Bill was to apply everywhere. The question then arose—how were those trust deeds, which must in the circumstances of the case be overridden, to be dealt with? In what way ought they to be set aside? The Government said: "Do not set them aside at all where they will benefit our existing denominational schools; let us seize every penny under these trust deeds for denominational purposes, although the trusts were created for educational purposes." On the other hand, his hon. and earned friend suggested that the trust deeds should be dealt with in the spirit of the Bill. Under the Bill the denominational managers were to control the denominational teaching in the schools, although they did not pay a penny of the cost, on the ground that they originally provided the building and were in future to carry out the repairs. But under the endowments Clause, wherever there was an income in the hands of trustees which could by any possibility be used for the maintenance and up-keep of the buildings, instead of the subscribers bearing time expense, the money of the trust deeds was to be used. That was contrary to the spirit of the Bill, and it was an evidence of the mean and niggling spirit of the supporters of the measure, which would make a deep impression on the people of the country by whom this question would have to be finally decided.

5.48. Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 227; Noes, 118. (Division List No. 546.)

AYES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte	Anson, Sir William Reynell	Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel	Arkwright, John Stanhope	Bailey, James (Walworth)
Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden	Arrol, Sir William	Bain, Colonel James Robert
Baird, John George Alexander	Gardner, Ernest	Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Balcarres, Lord	Garfit, William	Myers, William Henry
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r	Gibbs, Hn A.G. H. (City of Lond.	Nicholson, William Graham
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)	Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)	Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds	Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick	Percy, Earl
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.	Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets	Pierpoint, Robert
Bartley, George C. T.	Gore, Hn. G. R C. Ormsby-(Salop	Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard.
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin	Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon	Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Beckett, Ernest William	Goulding, Edward Alfred	Plummer, Walter R.
Bentinck, Lord Henry C.	Graham, Henry Robert	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Beresford, Lord Charles Wm.	Greene, Sir EW (BurySEdm'nds	Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.	Gretton, John	Purvis, Robert
Bignold, Arthur	Guthrie, Walter Murray	Quilter, Sir Cuthbert
Bigwood, James	Halsey, Rt. Ron. Thomas F.	Randles, John S.
Blundell, Colonel Henry	Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x	Rankin, Sir James
Bond, Edward	Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm.	Rattigan, Sir William Henry
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-	Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd	Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge
Bonsfield, William Robert	Hare, Thomas Leigh	Ritchie, Hn. Chas. Thomson
Brodrick, Rt Hon. St. John	Harris, Frederick Leverton	Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu	Hay, Hon. Claude George	Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Brotherton, Edward Allen	Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley	Rolleston, Sir John F. L.
Bull, William James	Heaton, John Henniker	Ropner, Colonel Robert
Burdett-Coutts, W.	Helder, Augustus	Round, Rt. Hon. James
Butcher, John George	Henderson, Sir Alexander	Royds, Clement Molyneux
Campbell ,Rt Hn. J. A. (Glasgow	Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.	Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Carew, James Lawrence	Higginbottom, S. W.	Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.	Hoare, Sir Samuel	Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton	Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.	Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)	Hope, J.F. (Sheffield, Brightside	Sharpe, William Edward T.
Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire	Horner, Frederick William	Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)
Cayzer, Sir Charles William	Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry	Simeon, Sir Barrington
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)	Howard, J. (Midis., Tottenham	Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East
Cecil Lord Hugh (Greenwich)	Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil	Smith, H C (North'mb. Tyneside
Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A. (Worc	Hunson, George Bickersteth	Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Chapman, Edward	Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.)	Spear, John Ward
Charrington, Spencer	Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse	Stanley, Edward, Jas. (Somerset
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.	Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.	Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Coddington, Sir William	Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton	Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Johnstone, Heywood	Stock, James Henry
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow	Kemp, George	Stone, Sir Benjamin
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge	Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.	Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Cripps, Charles Alfred	Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Cubitt, Hon. Henry	Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.	Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'dUniv.
Cust, Henry John C.	Kimber, Henry	Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Dalrymple, Sir Charles	King, Sir Henry Seymour	Thornton, Percy M.
Denny, Colonel.	Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)	Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Dickson, Charles Scott	Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)	Tritton, Charles Ernest
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.	Lawson, John Grant	Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-	Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)	Tuke, Sir John Batty
Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield	Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage	Valentia, Viscount
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph	Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie	Vincent, Col. Sir C. E H(Sheffield
Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon	Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.	Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.	Llewellyn, Evan Henry	Walker, Col. William Hall
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine	Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. H.
Doxford, Sir William Theodore	Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham	Wanklyn, James Leslie
Duke, Henry Edward	Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.	Warde, Colonel C. E.
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin	Lowe, Francis William	Welby, Lt,-Col. A.C.E. (Taunton
Dyke, Rt. William Hart	Loyd, Archie Kirkman	Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd
Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton	Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)	Whiteley, H. (Ashton-und-Lyne
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas	Macdona, John Cumming	Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Faber, George Denison (York)	Maconochie, A. W.	Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Fardell, Sir T. George	M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward	M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)	Willox, Sir John Archibald
Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J.(Manc'r	Manners, Lord Cecil	Wilson, John (Glagow)
Finch, George H.	Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H E. (Wigt'n	Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne	Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.	Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R. (Bath)
Fisher, William Hayes	Milner, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G	Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart-
Fison, Frederick William	Milvain, Thomas	Wylie, Alexander
FitzGerald, Sir Robert, Penrose-	Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)	Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon	Moon Edward Robert Pacy	Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Flower, Ernest	More, Robert, Jasper (Shropshire)
Forster, Henry William	Morrell, George Herbert	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S.W	Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer	Sir Alexander Acland-
Galloway, William Johnson	Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham(Bute	Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

NOES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda)	Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E.(Berwick)	Priestley, Arthur
Allan, Sir William (Gateshead	Griffith, Ellis J.	Rea, Russell
Allen, Charles P.(Glouc., Stroud	Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	Reckitt, Harold James
Ashton, Thomas Gair	Harwood, George	Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries
Asquith, RtHn. Herbert Henry	Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-	Rickett, J. Compton
Atherley-Jones, L.	Hayter, Rt. Hon, Sir Arthur D.	Rigg, Richard
Barlow, John Emmott	Helme, Norval Watson	Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Barran, Rowland Hirst	Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.	Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)	Holland, Sir William Henry	Runciman, Walter
Bell, Richard	Horniman, Frederick John	Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland
Bolton, Thomas Dolling	Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)	Schwan, Charles E.
Brigg, John	Jacoby, James Alfred	Shackleton, David James
Brown, Geo. M. (Edinburgh)	Jones, David Brymnor (Sw'nsea	Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Bryce, Rt. How James	Kearley, Hudson E.	Shipman, Dr. John G.
Burns, John	Kirson, Sir James	Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Burt, Thomas	Lambert, George	Soares, Ernest J.
Buxton, Sydney Charles	Langley, Batty	Speneer, Rt.HnC. R. (Northants
Caldwell, James	Layland-Barratt, Francis	Strachey, Sir Edward
Cameron, Robert	Leng, Sir John	Taylor, Theodere C. (Radcliffe)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Lewis, John Herbert	Tennant, Harold John
Cawley, Frederick	Lloyd-George, David	Thomas, Able (Carmarthen, E.
Channing, Francis Allston	Logan, John William	Thomas, Sir (Glamorgan, E.
Craig, Robert Hunter	Lough, Thomas	Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Creamer, William Randal	Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.	Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings
Davis, Alfred (Carmarthen)	M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)	Thomson, F. W. (York, W.R.)
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan	M'Kenna, Reginald	Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.	M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin	Wallace, Robert
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles	Mansfield, Horace Rendall	Wason, Engene
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)	Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe	Weir, James Galloway
Duncan, J. Hastings	Markham, Arthur Basil	White, George (Norfolk)
Dunn, Sir William	Morley, Charles (Breconshire)	White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Ewards, Frank	Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose	Whiteley, George (York, W.R.
Emmott, Alfred	Moss, Samuel	Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone	Moulton, John Fletcher	Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Fenwick, Charles	Newnes, Sir George	Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)	Norman, Henry	Yoxell, James Henry
Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Fuller, J. H. F.	Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham
Furness, Sir Christopher	Philipps, John Wynford	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Gladstone, Rt Hn Herbert John	Pickard, Benjamin	Mr. Samuel Evans and
Goddard, Daniel Ford	Price, Robert John	Mr. Corrie Grant.

(6.0.) THE CHAIRMAN

The Amendment of the hon. Member for Carnarvon seems to raise the same question again.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

said the question was not quite the same, and he thought he could make it perfectly clear that his Amendment raised quite a different question. He moved to omit the word "those" before the words "purposes of a public elementary school." He said that the object of this and consequential Amendments was to withdraw from the discretion of the trustees endowments left for the maintenance of the school as an institution, and not merely for the, maintenance of the fabric. When they came to the purposes of education, these trusts divided themselves into two branches, one being to establish and found school buildings or the provision of a site, or money to build a school. He contended that the trustees would be entitled to say "This money is given for building and we are entitled to use it for repairing and extensions if we like." There were other cases where the money had been given for maintenance. In a case of that kind this Clause would not give discretion to the trustees. In one case he knew of a sum of money which was given for fit and deserving bachelors: another sum was for buying Welsh Bibles and for the preaching of a sermon on Whit Monday; and there was another stun set apart for the education of the children of the labouring classes. Where the money was given to educate the children of the parish, surely in a case of that kind it was clear that the money ought to be given to the local education authority. Take a case where the charity was established to maintain education in a parish, and a second case where it was intended to build schools. Now the Government stated that with regard to the first charity its object remained. They did not, however, take over the functions and the trustees had still to discharge them, but with regard to the second case the Government now proposed that the local education authority in the future was to step into the shoes of the trustees, do their work, take the responsibility, and the liability, financial and otherwise, was theirs, and if there was a fund for the purpose the local authority ought to be relieved to the amount of that sum. He wished to reverse the process established by the Government. The Government said that if it was given at all for educational purposes, whether for maintenance or for the fabric, in such a case absolute discretion should be given to the trustees unless the money was ear-marked for a specific branch. If the money was given for general purposes of maintenance, then he understood that the trustees used their discretion. That was not fair from the point of view of the Government. If money was given for maintenance and could be transferred to the up-keep of the fabric, that was a diversion of the charity from the original object of the trust. He was now simply advocating good sound Conservative principles. The Government seized this property and diverted it to another object. If this were done in regard to private property they would call it confiscation and robbery, but because it was the property of the poor and of the ratepayer they practically said that they could rob them to any extent. If the Government would say that an endowment left for "maintenance" would go to the local authority the Amendment fell to the ground. But they would not say so.

LORD HUGH CECIL (Greenwich)

It is for the Courts of law to say what would happen.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

said that the Bill must be passed in such a form that the Courts of law could understand it. Besides, these questions would be decided by the Board of Education. But if the noble Lord and his friends said that the purpose of an endowment could be altered to relieve a landowner of his subscriptions, how could he object if another Government some day altered the purpose of endowment for the benefit of the whole community?

Amendment proposed— In line 4, to leave out the word 'those,' and insert the word the.'"—(Mr. Lloyd-George.)

Question proposed, "That the word 'those' stand part of the Clause."

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

said he was not going to follow or even to attempt to imitate the vituperation which the hon. Member had indulged in—

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

Whom did I vituperate? I was very civil.

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

said the hon. Member spoke of robbery, confiscation, and such terms as those.

MR LLOYD-GEORGE

I was only quoting the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bordesley.

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

said he would confine his observations to a somewhat narrower sphere. The Government wished to leave the discretion to the managers where there was a discretion already. Maintenance, in the sense in which it was used, would correspond to benefit—the purposes of the school, the general objects of the school. He admitted that if it could be shown in any trust deed that money was given for the maintenance of a school in the narrower sense in which the word maintenance was used in the Bill, it would go direct to the education authority, but there was no ground for the charge that the Government were perverting the word "maintenance" in trust deeds to mean something different from what it really did mean. There was no wish to depart from the provisions of the trust deed, but if any question arose as to the proper interpretation of the trust deed, the persons who were responsible would be responsible before the Courts of law. If it was desired to ransack the conditions of trust deeds and to provide means, uniform in character, of dealing with them, and which should be applicable to all trusts and endowments now held for the purposes of education, that was not a subject which the Government proposed to introduce in the Bill. This might be a question for another Bill on another occasion, but at present the Government were content to take the trusts as they found them.

MR. SAMUEL EVANS

agreed with the Bishop of London that there was no desire to start the working of the Bill by raising points for wholesale litigation. But they were anxious to find out what was intended by the Government, and for that reason an attempt was being made to make provisions clear which were at present obscure. If an endowment was intended for the support of the school as distinguished from the school-house, did the Government mean to allow the managers to utilise that endowment under the provisions of this Clause for the maintenance of the fabric mud its repair? They were on sound ground when they asked this explanation. He thought when they raised these distinct questions they ought to receive explanations of what the Government meant. It was not satisfactory to be told that if difficulties arose it was for the Courts of law to clear them up.

MR. ASQUITH (Fife, E.)

said he quite agreed with his hon. and learned friend that it was most expedient that the determination of questions such as tins should not be left to the interpretation of the Courts of law. They had far too much experience of that procedure already, and the Committee ought to be warned by that experience not to repeat a mistake into which previous legislators had fallen. He took note of one statement of the Secretary to the Board of Education with satisfaction—that when a trust was so explanatory that it directed the money to be applied to the maintenance of the school, then it was clear that the local authority should be entitled to the benefit of the fund.

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

Maintenance in the sense in which maintenance is used in this Bill.

MR. ASQUITH

said that the interruption was a good illustration of the use of ambiguous language in an Act of Parliament or elsewhere. Did that mean that where the pious founder who created the trust has stated his purpose, and the sole purpose, to which the trust was to be applied, there and there only it should go to the local authority? He thought without being very rash they might safely assert that there were very few trusts indeed in which the author of the trust had the prevision to anticipate that by some future legislative settlement only this purpose would be available. The principle laid down by the Amendment of his hon. friend was that where the trust was such that they might infer from the language that the proceeds were intended to be applied to the fund for the support and benefit of the school, the local authority should be regarded as the present beneficiaries of the trust nail should be entitled to the proceeds. Where, on the other hand, it could be clearly collected from the language of the trust that it was intended to be limited to a purpose over which the managers had jurisdiction, another state of things would arise. What he and his hon. friends wanted was that the presumption should be in cases where general language was used, and from which they could infer that the education of the children in the parish was the real purpose of the foundation that the local authority should be the persons entitled to the benefit of the fund.

MR. CORRIE GRANT

said the Secretary of the Education Department ignored the actual condition of things. The hon. Baronet quoted from a trust deed in which the phrase "maintenance of the school," was used. Whore that phrase was used before this Bill was introduced it had covered everything connected with the up-keep of the school. It had covered repairs, white-washing, painting the building, the provision of books for the children payment of the salaries of the teachers, the provision of coals, and lighting where there was artificial light, and so on. Wherever the words "maintenance of the school" were used in a trust deed when this Bill came to be applied to them the phrase would be ambiguous. What did the hon. Baronet suggest? Not that, recognising this ambiguity, they should deal with it and make it clear, but that they should refer the subject to the Courts of law. It was a curious thing that the persons who were protesting against reference to the Courts of law in this matter were those who would pare to deal with the cases if they went there. They knew how unsatisfactory it was to send to a law court for the interpretation of a document to which a special meaning was attached after that document came into existence, and that was what the Board of Education was suggesting now. On the other hand, what he and his hon. friends wanted was that those who had to administer education should be able to administer it under perfectly clear and sensible conditions, and should not have their work hampered by a series of appeals to the law courts. Until the introduction of this Bill, "maintenance" had never meant the drawing of a distinction between the up-keep of the building and the carrying on of the school. The Bill now made this distinction. If the matter was now left unsettled, there would be appeals to the Courts, perhaps contrary decisions, and after all they would then have to come to the House of Commons and ask that the matter should be put right.

MR. SOARES

said that the hon. Gentleman, in the course of his speech, treated of three classes of endowments, the first two of which might be used for the benefit of the denominational schools. In the third class where the money was to be devoted generally to maintaining the schools, the local authorities should have the control of it. Henceforth the local authority will have the duty laid upon it of maintaining these schools, and if they were to take that burden it was only fair that they should have the assets also. The denominational schools had gone into voluntary liquidation, and they were asked to take them over. There was no question of confiscation in regard to this matter. In every case the money belonging to the denomination was to go to the denomination, and it was only where the money had been given for education that it was to go to the local authority. The position of two classes of people had been altered by the Bill. He meant the rich and the poor. The subscribers would have the "intolerable strain" taken off them, but on the other hand the ratepayers would have a new burden imposed on them, and that would be very keenly felt in the rural districts. He supported the Amendment on the ground that it was infinitely better that small endowments should go to the relief of the pockets of the ratepayers rather than those of the wealthy subscribers to voluntary schools.

SIR CHARLES DILKE (Gloucestershire, Forest of Dean)

said he had been fairly puzzled with this Clause, it was so difficult to understand: so much so that he was unable to support one of the Amendments, for it seemed to him to mean exactly the opposite of what the hon. Member who moved it intended it to mean. The usual words that were used in the older endowments were "for the support of the school," or "for the schooling or the education of so many poor children." He really did not think that the words of this Clause in the least suited these cases, which were the usual form of trust deeds. One reason why he supported the Amendment of his hon. friend was that his words were clear. If the words "for the purposes of a school" were used, the Clause would he rendered much clearer and more distinct than it was when originally introduced, and he was sure that unless the Clause were amended in the sense of the Amendment it would cause a great deal of litigation.

MR. HERBERT LEWIS

said that the hon. Baronet had drawn a distinction between "maintenance" as it was used in the Bill, and "maintenance" as it was used in trust deeds: and he had based on the distinction he had so drawn an argument why this money should not be given to the local education authority but should be retained in the hands of the managers. He had been making some detailed inquiry into the terms employed in trust deeds, and in many cases he found that they contained absolutely no reference to the school buildings, but related solely and simply to the education of children in the schools. If the hon. baronet would make inquiry, careful and detailed, he would find that very seldom indeed, even by implication, was there an assumption to the effect that "maintenance" related to these school buildings. In one parish, .and he took these illustrations at random, the endowment was for the "education of poor children." In the next parish the endowment was for the gratuitous education of one or more children. In another parish the money was to be applied in the payment of scholarships of £1 each to deserving boys not less than twelve years of age. In all these cases there was no reference whatever to school buildings. The reply of the hon. Baronet had not covered that point in the slightest degree, and he trusted after this Debate that the Government would see there was a case to be met.

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

said it was obvious that in the cases mentioned by the hon. Member, the money was to be expended by the local education authority on education, as was provided for by the Clause as it stood.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

said that the hon. Baronet had not answered a much

more important case than of a fund for the support of a school in existence.

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

said that the funds would go for repairs.

(6.42.) Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 235; Noes, 120. (Division List No. 547.)

AYES
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte	Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield	Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.)
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel	Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph	Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse
Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden	Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon	Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Dorington Rt. Hon. Sir John E.	Jessel, Captain Herbert Morton
Arkwright, John Stanhope	Doughty, George	Johnstone, Heywood
Arrol, Sir William	Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers	Kemp, George
Atkinson. Rt. Hon. John	Doxford, Sir William Theodore	Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.
Bailey, James (Walworth)	Duke, Henry Edward	Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)
Bain, Colonel James Robert	Durning-Lawrenee, Sir Edwin	Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop
Baird, John George Alexander	Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart	Keswick, William
Balcarres, Lord	Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton	Kimber, Henry
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J. (Manch'r)	Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Dougla)	King, Sir Henry Seymour
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)	Faber, George Denison (Yorks	Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow
Balfour, Rt Hn. Gerald W (Leeds	Fardell, Sir T. George	Lawrence, Wm. E. (Liverpool)
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.	Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward	Lawson, John Grant
Bartley, George C. T.	Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r	Leeky, Rt. Hn. William Edw. H.
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin	Finch, George H.	Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)
Beckett, Ernest William	Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne	Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage
Bentinck, Lord Henry C.	Fisher, William Hayes	Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie
Beresford, Lord Charles Wm.	Fison, Frederick William	Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.
Bignold, Arthur	FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-	Llewellyn, Evan Henry
Bigwood, James	Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon	Lockie, John
Blundell, Colonel Henry	Flannery, Sir Fortescue	Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Bond, Edward	Flower, Ernest	Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-	Forster, Henry William	Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S,
Bousfield, William Robert	Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S.W	Lowe, Francis William
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John	Galloway, William Johnson	Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu	Gardner, Ernest	Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)
Brotherton, Edward Allen	Garfit, William	Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred
Bull, William James	Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)	Macdona, John Cumming
Burdett-Counts. W.	Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick	Maconochie, A. W.
Butcher, John George	Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets	M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.	Gore, HnG. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop	M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire
Cavendish. R. F. (N. Lancs.)	Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon	Manners, Lord Cecil
Cavendish, V.C. W.(Derbyshire	Goschen, Hon. George Joachim	Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.
Cayzer, Sir Charles William	Goulding, Edward Alfred	Milner, Rt Hon. Sir Frederick G.
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)	Graham, Henry Robert	Milvain, Thomas
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)	Greene, Sir E W(Bury S Edm'nds	Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)
Camberlain, RtHn. J.A(Worc.	Gretton, John	Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Chapman. Edward	Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.	More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)
Charrington, Spencer	Hamilton, RtHn. G (Midd'x	Murrell, George Herbert.
Clare, Octavius Leigh	Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.	Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer
Clive, Captain Percy A.	Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd	Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.	Hare, Thomas Leigh	Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath
Coddington, Sir William	Harris, Frederick Leverton	Myers, William Henry
Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.	Nicholson, William Graham
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas	Hay, Hon. Claude George	Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Corbett. A. Cameron (Glasgow)	Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley	Pease Herbert Pike (Darlington
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge	Heaton, John Henniker	Percy, Earl
Cranborne, Viscount	Helder, Augustus	Pierpoint, Robert
Cripps, Charles Alfred	Henderson, Sir Alexander	Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard
Cubitt, Hon. Henry	Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.	Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Cust, Henry John C.	Higginbottom, S. W.	Plummer, Walter R.
Dalrymple, Sir Charles	Hoare, Sir Samuel	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Davies, Sir Horatio D.(Chatham	Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.	Pretyman, Ernest George
Denny, Colonel	Hope, J .F (Sheffield, Brightside	Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Dickson, Charles Scott	Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry	Purvis, Robert
Dickson Poynder, Sir John P.	Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil	Quilter, Sir Cuthbert
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-	Hudson, George Bickersteth	Randles, John S.
Rankin, Sir James	Smith, Hon W. F. D.(Strand	Warde, Colonel C. E.
Rattigan, Sir William Henry	Spear, John Ward	Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E (Taunton
Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge	Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset	Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson	Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)	Whiteley, H (Ashton und. Lyne
Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)	Stock, James Henry	Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)	Stone, Sir Benjamin	Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Rolleston, Sir John F. L.	Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Ropner, Colonel Robert	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)	Willox, Sir John Archibald
Round, Rt. Hon. James	Talbot, Rt Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.	Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Royds, Clement Molyneux	Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)	Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.
Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-	Thornton, Percy M.	Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander	Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.	Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)
Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)	Tritton, Charles Ernest	Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart-
Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)	Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward	Wylie, Alexander
Seely, Maj J. E. B. (Isle of Wight	Tuke, Sir John Batty	Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Sharpe, William Edward T.	Tully, Jasper	Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew	Valentia, Viscount
Simeon, Sir Barrington	Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H (Sheffi'ld
Skewes-Cox, Thomas	Walker, Col. William Hall	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East	Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.	Sir Alexander Acland-
Smith, H C (North'mb. Tyn'side	Wanklyn, James Leslie	Hood and Mr. Anstruther.
NOES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda)	Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick	Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries
Allan, Sir William (Gateshead)	Griffith, Ellis J.	Rickett, J. Compton
Allen, Charles P.(Glonc., Stroud	Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	Rigg, Richard
Ashton, Thomas Gair	Harmsworth, R. Leicester	Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry	Harwood, George	Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Barlow, John Emmott	Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-	Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Barran, Rowland Hirst	Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.	Robson, William Snowdon
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)	Helme, Norval Watson	Runciman Walter
Bell, Richard	Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.	Samuel, Herbert. L. (Cleveland
Bolton, Thomas Dolling	Holland, Sir William Henry	Schwann, Charles E.
Brigg, John	Horniman, Frederick John	Shackleton, David James
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)	Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)	Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James	Jacoby, James Alfred	Shipman, Dr. John G.
Burns, John	Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea	Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Burt, Thomas	Kearley, Hudson E.	Soares, Ernest J.
Buxton, Sydney Charles	Kitson, Sir James	Spencer, Rt Hn. C.R (Northants
Caldwell, James	Lambert, George	Strachey, Sir Edward
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Langley, Batty	Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe
Causton, Richard Knight	Layland, Barratt, Francis	Tennant, Harold John
Cawley, Frederick	Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington	Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.
Channing, Francis Allston	Leng, Sir John	Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.
Craig, Robert Hunter	Lewis, John Herbert	Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Cremer, William Randall	Logan, John William	Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings
Dalziel, James Henry	Lough, Thomas	Thomson, F. W. (York, W.R.
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)	Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.	Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Davies, M Vaughan-(Cardigan	M'Arthur William (Cornwall)	Wallace, Robert
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.	M'Kenna, Reginald	Wason, Eugene
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles	Mansfield, Horace Rendall	Weir, James Galloway
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)	Markham, Arthur Basil	White, George (Norfolk)
Duncan, J. Hastings	Morley, Charles (Breconshire)	White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Dunn, Sir William	Moss, Samuel	Whiteley, George (York, W.R.
Edwards, Frank	Newnes, Sir George	Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Emmott, Alfred	Norman, Henry	Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.
Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone	Norton, Capt. Cecil William	Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Fenwick, Charles	Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham	Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)	Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)	Yoxall, James Henry
Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	Philipps, John Wynford
Fuller, J. M. F.	Pickard, Benjamin
Furness, Sir Christopher	Price, Robert John	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Gladstone, Rt Hn. Herbert John	Priestley, Arthur	Mr. Lloyd-George and
Goddard, Daniel Ford	Rea, Russell	Mr. Samuel Evans.
Grant, Corrie	Reckitt, Harold James

MR. CORRIE GRANT

said the effect of the Amendment he proposed to move would be that the proviso would apply to all trusts and would not be limited. It would apply to all trusts as to which the provision had to be made, and not be limited to the purposes of the public elementary schools. He ventured to think this was an Amendment that the Government would accept. It had nothing to do with matters which they had debated earlier in the afternoon. It would, he ventured to suggest, help the co-ordination of education. The Government had always said that one of the objects of the Bill was to produce unity, and if they accepted that principle of coordination he could not see why they should attempt to limit this Clause to elementary education. He submitted in that case it should be extended to all classes of education.

Amendment proposed— In line 4, to leave out the words 'of a public elementary school.'"—(Mr. Corrie Grant.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

said the hon. Member proposed an entire recasting of the purposes of the Clause by bringing within its scope all manner of educational endowments, and he could hardly be

serious in thinking that the Government would accept it. The object of the Government in introducing the Clause was to deal with elementary schools only which were not provided by the education authority, and they could not possibly extend its scope to secondary schools.

MR. TREVELVAN (Yorkshire, W.R, Elland)

supported the Amendment. He instanced a village with which he was acquainted which was possessed of a board school which had an average attendance of 226 children, by the side of which was a little school under an endowment which had twelve children. The only thing this little school did was to withdraw that number of children from the far better education which they would receive at the board school.

(7.3.) Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 235; Noes, 114. (Division List No. 548.)

AYES.
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel	Chapman, Edward	Fisher, William Hayes
Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden	Charrington, Spencer	Fison, Frederick William
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Clare, Octavius Leigh.	FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-
Arkwright, John Stanhope	Clive, Captain Percy A.	Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon
Arrol, Sir William	Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.	Flannery, Sir Fortescue
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John	Coddington, Sir William	Flower, Ernest
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy	Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Forster, Henry William
Bailey, James (Walworth)	Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas	Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S.W
Bain, Colonel James Robert	Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)	Galloway, William Johnson
Baird, John George Alexander	Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge	Gardner, Ernest
Balcarres, Lord	Cranborne, Viscount	Garfit, William
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r	Cripps, Charles Alfred	Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)	Cubitt, Hon. Henry	Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick
Balfour, Rt Hn. Glerald W (Leeds	Cust, Henry John C.	Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'ml'ts
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.	Dalrymple, Sir Charles	Gore, HnG. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop
Bartley, George C. T.	Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham	Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin	Denny, Colonel	Goschen, Hon. George Joachim
Beckett, Ernest William	Dewar, Sir T. R(Tower Hamlets	Goulding, Edward Alfred
Bentinck, Lord Henry C.	Dickson, Charles Scott	Greene, Sir E W(B'ryS Edm'nds
Beresford, Lord Chas. William	Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.	Gretton, John
Bignold, Arthur	Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-	Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.
Bigwood, James	Dunsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield	Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x
Blundell, Colonel Henry	Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph	Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.
Bond, Edward	Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon	Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-	Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.	Hare, Thomas Leigh
Bousfield, William Robert	Doughty, George	Harris, Frederick Leverton
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John	Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu	Doxford, Sir William Theodore	Hay, Hon. Claude George
Brotherton, Edward Allen	Duke, Henry Edward	Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley
Bull, William James	Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin	Helder, Augustus
Burdett-Coutts, W.	Dyke, Rt Hon. Sir William Hart	Henderson, Sir Alexander
Butcher, John George	Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton	Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.	Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas	Higginbottom, S. W.
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)	Faber, George Denison (York	Hoare, Sir Samuel
Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire	Fardell, Sir T. George	Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.
Cayzer, Sir Charles William	Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward	Hogg, Lindsay
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)	Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r	Hope, J .F (Sheffield, Brightside
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)	Finch, George H.	Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry
Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J.A (Worc.	Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne	Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil
Hudson, George Bickersteth	Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute	Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand
Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.)	Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath	Spear, John Ward
Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse	Myers, William Henry	Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset
Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.	Nicholson, William Graham	Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Jessel, Captain Herbert Morton	Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay	Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Johnstone, Heywood	Parker, Sir Gilbert	Stock, James Henry
Kemp, George	Pease Herbert Pike (Darlington	Stone, Sir Benjamin
Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)	Percy, Earl	Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop	Pierpoint, Robert	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Keswick, William	Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard	Talbot, Rt Hn J.G (Oxf'rd Univ.
Kimber, Henry	Platt-Higgins, Frederick	Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
King, Sir Henry Seymour	Plummer, Walter R.	Thornton, Percy M.
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp	Tomlinson, Sir Wm Edward M.
Lawrence, Wm. E. (Liverpool)	Pretyman, Ernest George	Tritton, Charles Ernest
Lawson, John Grant	Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward	Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Lecky, Rt. Hn. William Edw. H.	Purvis, Robert	Tuke, Sir John Batty
Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)	Pym, C. Guy	Valentia, Viscount
Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage	Quilter, Sir Cuthbert	Vincent, Col Sir C. E.H (Sheffi'ld
Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie	Randles, John S.	Walker, Col. William Hall
Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.	Rankin, Sir James	Walrond, Rt Hon Sir William H.
Llewellyn, Evan Henry	Rattigan, Sir William Henry	Wanklyn, James Leslie
Lockie, John	Remnant, James Farquharson	Warde, Colonel C. E.
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine	Ridley, Hon. M. W (Stalybridge	Welby, Lt-Col. A.C. E (Taunton
Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham	Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson	Wharton Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.	Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)	Whiteley, H(Ashton-und. Lyne
Lowe, Francis William	Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)	Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Loyd, Archie Kirkman	Rolleston, Sir John F. L.	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)	Ropner, Colonel Robert	Willox, Sir John Archibald
Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred	Round, Rt. Hon. James	Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Macdona, John Cumming	Royds, Clement Molyneux	Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.
Maconochie, A. W.	Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-	Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)	Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander	Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R.(Bath
M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire	Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)	Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart-
Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.	Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)	Wylie, Alexander
Milner, Rt Hn. Sir Frederick G.	Seely, Maj. J. E. B (Isle of Wight	Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Milvain, Thomas	Sharpe, Edward T.	Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong
Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)	Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)
Moon, Edward Robert Pacy	Skewes-Cox, Thomas
More, Robt. Jasper (Shrepshire)	Smith, Abel H (Hertford, East	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Murrell, George Herbert.	Smith, HC (North'mb, Tyneside	Sir Alexander Acland-
Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer	Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.	Hood and Mr. Anstruther.
NOES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda)	Fenwick, Charles	Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.
Allan, Sir William (Gateshead	Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.	M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)
Ashton, Thomas Gair	Fuller, J. M. F.	M'Kenna, Reginald
Marlow, John Emmott	Furness, Sir Christopher	Mansfield, Horace Rendall
Barran, Howland Hirst	Gladstone, Rt. Hn Herbert John	Markham, Arthur Basil
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)	Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick)	Morley, Charles (Breconshire)
Bell, Richard	Griffith, Ellis J.	Moss, Samuel
Bolton, Thomas Dolling	Gurden, Sir W. Brampton	Newnes, Sir George
Brigg, John	Harmsworth, R. Leicester	Norman, Henry
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh	Harwood, George	Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James	Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-	Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham
Barns, John	Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D.	Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)
Burt, Thomas	Helme, Norval Watson	Philipps, John Wynford
Caldwell, James	Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.	Pickard, Benjamin
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Holland, Sir William Henry	Price, Robert John
Causton, Richard Knight	Horniman, Frederick John	Priestley, Arthur
Channing, Francis Allston	Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)	Rea, Russell
Craig, Robert Hunter	Jacoby, James Alfred	Reckitt, Harold James
Cremer, William Randal	Jones, David Brymnor (Swansea	Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)	Kearley, Hudson E.	Rickett, J. Compton
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan	Kitson, Sir James	Rigg, Richard
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.	Lambert, George	Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
One, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles	Langley, Batty	Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark	Layland-Barratt, Francis	Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Duncan, J. Hastings	Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington	Robson, William Snowdon
Dunn, Sir William	Long, Sir John	Runciman, Walter
Edwards, Frank	Lewis, John Herbert	Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland
Emmott, Alfred	Lloyd-George, David	Schwalm, Charles E.
Evans, Sir Francis H(Maidstone	Logan, John William	Shackleton, David James
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)	Lough, Thomas	Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Shipman, Dr. John G.	Thomson, F. W. (York, W.R.)	Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.
Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)	Trevelyan, Charles Philips	Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.
Soares, Ernest J.	Wallace, Robert	Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Spencer, Rt Hn. C.R(Northants	Wason, Eugene	Yoxall, James Henry
Strachey, Sir Edward.	Weir, James Galloway
Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)	White, George (Norfolk)
Tennant, Harold John	White, Luke (York, E.R.)	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)	Whiteley, George (York, W.R)	Mr. Corrie Grant and
Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)	Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)	Mr. Allen.
Thomas. F. Freeman-(Hastings	Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

moved an Amendment providing that the decision of the Board of Education should not be given until after a local inquiry, of which ten days public notice had been given to the local education authority and the minor local authority, had been held. He pointed out that the Charity Commissioners, when they examined into local charities, always had a public inquiry of which notice was given. In case of a dispute between the local managers of a school and the local education authority, how were the Board of Education to get at the facts? Were they to decide the matter on a written presentment of the case by the managers, or were they to send a representative to investigate the whole of the circumstances? Unless the latter course were adopted, a very novel principle would be introduced into dealings with property, trust funds, and endowments. In most cases a scheme was already in operation, but the practical result of this Cause would be that new schemes would have to he made. The Board of Education would have to decide whether a certain charity was for maintenance, or for the fabric, or for religious purposes. That was a judicial function. Then they would have to decide whether it was a fund partly for maintenance and partly for repairs, and, if so, how to divide it. Such questions required the most careful local investigation. An important point would be the manner in which the money had been used in the past, and it was a question of evidence. Did the Board intend to get that evidence by affidavits? That was the last way in the world to get at the truth. The only satisfactory way was to send a Commissioner down to investigate all the circumstances of the case. Hitherto the Board of Education had been purely an administrative body, but they were now taking upon themselves the functions of a judicial tribunal.

That being so they ought surely to proceed on judicial principles. The Amendment proposed nothing that could contravene the principle of the Clause, whatever that principle might be, and therefore, as it was only fair that the Parish Council and the parish should have an opportunity of presenting their case, he hoped the Amendment would be accepted.

Amendment proposed— In line 11, after the word 'Education,' to insert the words 'but the decision of the Board of Education shall not he given until after a local inquiry, of which tell days' previous notice shall be given to the local education authority and to the minor local authority, shall have been first held by the Board of Education.'"—(Mr. Lloyd-George.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

SIR WILLIAM ANSON

said many cases might arise under the Clause in which it would be convenient and desirable to hold a local inquiry, but many other cases might arise in which the whole question would be the interpretation of a document which might be interpreted as well at Whitehall as in the locality itself. The local authority would not be wholly unrepresented in the matter from the very outset, because both the local education authority and the minor local authority had representatives on the board of managers, and would, therefore, be aware of what was passing not only from the managers' point of view but also from the point of view of the locality. It seemed to him harsh and unnecessary that the local authority should be saddled in every case of a dispute with the delay and the cost of a public inquiry when a careful study of documents might be all that was needed. He had no doubt the Board of Education would hold an inquiry whenever it was necessary.

MR. BRYCE

was sorry the Government had not given a more favourable answer, because they had admitted that in many cases a local inquiry would be necessary. Frequently such an inquiry would be the only way by which both the local authority and the people on the spot would be made to feel that the case had been properly presented. Why not assent to allowing a local inquiry wherever the local education authority asked for it? They could rely that such inquiries would not be needlessly asked for, as the local authority would have to bear the expense. It was necessary that the Government should give some better guarantee than was contained in the Clause that the local opinion would be properly ascertained.

MR. SAMUEL EVANS

thought the suggestion of his right hon. friend an eminently reasonable one, though possibly it did not go quite far enough. The Parish Council also ought to have the right to call for a public inquiry, and he suggested that the Government should provide for a public inquiry being held whenever the education authority or the minor local authority desired it. Be expressed his astonishment at hearing the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education declare that in most cases all that would be necessary was the construction or the interpretation of a written document. That was the duty of a Court of law, not of the Board of Education.

It being half-past seven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.

Committee report Progress; to sit again this evening.