Commons Sitting of 13 November 1902

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.
PETITIONS.
  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (STANDING ORDERS).
  Petition from Royal and other burghs of Scotland, for a new Standing Order providing for the Suspension of Bills; to lie upon the Table.
  CANADIAN CATTLE (IMPORTATION).
  Petitions for abolition of restrictions; from Chesterfield; Clay Cross; Pleasley; and Cefn; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL
  Petitions against: from Bridgwater (three); Glasgow; and Skipton; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petitions for alteration: from Clay Cross; Pleasley; Cefn; and Chesterfield; to lie upon the Table.
  FEES FOR BURIAL SERVLCES IN PAROCHLAL CEMETERIES.
  Petition from Shoreditch, for alteration of law; to lie upon the Table.
  PREVENTION OF CORRUPTION IN TRADE.
  Petitions for legislation: from Chesterfield, Clay Cross; Pleasley; and Cefn; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  COLONIAL IMPORT DUTIES, 1902.
  Copy presented, of Return relating to the rates of import duties levied upon the principal and other articles imported into the Colonies toad other possessions of the United Kingdom for the year 1902 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table

  TREATY SERIES (No. 14. 1902).
  Copy presented, of Convention between the United Kingdom and the United States of America respecting import
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  ditties in Zanzibar. Signed at Washington, 31st May, 1902. Ratifications exchanged, 17th October, 1902 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRULATED WILTH VPTES.

  Schoolmasters' Houses.
  MR. M'KENNA (Monmouthshire, N.): To ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he can state the total amount of grants made since 1843 for schoolmasters' houses; and whether he will consider the expediency of providing, at some future stage of the Education Bill, for the recognition of the claim of the public to the use of such houses jointly with their use by the trustees of the school.
  (Answered by Mr. A. J. Balfour.) I cannot give the figures asked for by the hon. Member; but I am having them prepared with all speed. The second part of the Question is under consideration

  Port Ellen—Delay of Mails.
  MR. NICOL: To ask the Postmaster General how often during the past year has the mail steamer "Glencoe" delivered the mails at 4 p.m. at Port Ellen, Islay, and how often have the road mails from Portaskaig been delivered at Port Ellen at 7·55, the schedule times; whether the steamer or the road mail is the cause of the detention, and have any or either incurred any penalty; and, if so, has such penalty been imposed.
  (Answered Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) The schedule time of arrival of the mails at Port Ellen is 4·25 p.m. when conveyed to that port by direct steamer (and not 4 p.m. as stated in the Question). When conveyed by steamer to Portaskaig and thence by road to Port Ellen the mails are due at 8·25 p.m. (and not 7·55 p.m. as stated in the Question). From the 1st of January to the 31st of October last the direct steamer arrived at Port Ellen on seventy-two occasions at or before the scheduled time, and on 101 occasions after that hour; but the average lateness for the 173 clays has not amounted to a punter of an hour. During the last four months, comprising the season in which the mails and traffic are heavier than at any other time of the year, the

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  mails sent via Portaskaig have reached Port Ellen at or before the scheduled time on four occasions. On the other thirty occasions there has been some delay, owing in great part to irregularity in the working of the train service to Gourock; and the delays in the steamer service have not been sufficient to call for the imposition of a penalty. The road service between Portaskaig and Port Ellen has been well performed, but it has lately been necessary to allow additional time for the journey on account of the detour which has to be made through the closing of a bridge, which had been damaged by floods.

  London Telegraph Operators—Qualifications.
  MR. HENNIKER HEATON: To ask the Postmaster General, whether seeing that in 1880 a scale of pay was introduced in London giving to telegraph operators the salary of £per year, and that late Controller Sir H. Fischer, stated that seniority, good conduct, and manipulative ability secured this salary to operating telegraphists, he will state what qualifications are necessary to secure this salary at the present time
  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) The qualifications are ability, good conduct, length of service, and fitness for the work of supervision; and the Postmaster General selects for promotion from among the candidates so qualified the officer who is in his opinion, all things considered, best fitted for the duties which have to be performed.

  Pacific Cable—Rates.
  MR. HENNIKER HEATON: To ask the Postmaster General, whether the rate per word for cable messages between England and Australasia viâ the Pacific has yet been fixed; and, if so, whether he has any objection to giving the information.
  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) I am informed by the Pacific Cable Board that they have fixed the rate per word between England and Australasia at 3s.

  Board of Education Inspectors— Mr. H. M. Richards.
  MR. ERNEST GRAY: To ask the Secretary to the Board
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  of Education with reference to the appointment of Mr. Barnett, one of the inspectors of the Board, in Natal, whether he will state the, name of his successor and state what experience he has had in educational work, and in particular whether he has had any experience in public elementary schools before being sent to inspect them.
  (Answered by Sir William Anson.) Mr. Henry Maunsell Richards, M.A., has been appointed a temporary Inspector in place of Mr. Barnett. Mr. Richards holds the elementary school teachers' certificate of the Board of Education, and taught in elementary schools from 1895–7. He was subsequently for four years head master of the Middlesex County high School, Isleworth, and became a junior inspector under the Board of Education in September, 1901.

  Education Bill—Definition of "School" in Clause 15 (a).
  MR. ERNEST GRAY: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether the word "school," in Clause 15 (a) of the Education Bill, includes a public elementary school.
  (Answered by Sir William Anson.) Yes, Sir.

  Education Bill—Credit Balances in Hands of Voluntary School Managers.
  MR. MANSFIELD: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Education if he will say whether, in the event of the Education Bill now before Parliament becoming law, the managers of voluntary schools will be allowed to appropriate for their own purposes, that is, to the upkeep of the school buildings, etc., any credit balances they may have in hand at the time of the adoption of the Act.
  (Answered by Sir William Anson.) Understanding by "their own purposes" the purposes for which the managers have to make provision in the Bill, the answer is in the affirmative.

  Education Bill—Members of Education Committee interested in Contracts.
  MR. MANSFIELD: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Education if he

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  will state, in the event of the Education Bill now before Parliament becoming law, what will be the position of a member of the Council of a county borough, or other authority charged with the administration of the Act, who, previous to the passing of the Act, had undertaken contracts with the School Board within the same area, and which contracts are not completed at the time of the passing of the Act, and will such a contractor invalidate his scat on the Council.
  (Answered by Sir William Anson.) Persons "concerned in any bargain or contract" with a District Council are (subject to certain exceptions) disqualified from being members of the Council by Section 40 (e) of The Local Government Act, 1894. Persons having "directly or indirectly…any share or interest in any contract" with a County or Borough Council, are (subject to certain exceptions) disqualified from membership of the Council by Section 12 (1) (c) of The Municipal Corporations Act, 1882, and Sections 2 and 75 of The Local Government Act, 1888. Contracts entered into with School Boards will be taken over by the new authorities, and will carry with them the disqualification for membership of those authorities.

  Navy (Ships' Boilers) Return—Alterations since Commissioning.
  LORD CHARLES BERESFORD: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in view of the fact that the Return, Navy (Ships' Boilers); No. 350, dated 17th October. 1902, does not include the cost of any alterations or additions made since commissioning, he will state the expenses incurred for alterations or additions with regard to the ships mentioned in the Return.
  (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster.) There is no objection to giving the additional information now asked for, but as a large number of ships are involved it would probably be more convenient to give it in the form of a Return if the noble Lord will move for one

  Factory and Workshops Act, 1901— Local Inquiries.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware that objections are entertained by operatives in the industry of file-cutting by hand, as well as by the Cutlers' Company, to some of the proposed new regulations under Section 79 of the Factory and Workshops Act of 1901; and whether lie will take care that the new rules are not put into force until a local inquiry has been held into the objections taken to them.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.) When I issued these regulations in draft I invited criticisms on the proposals contained in them, and I have received objections to some of them both from operatives in Sheffield and from the Cutlers' Company. A local inquiry will be held, at which all persons affected by the proposed regulations will be heard, before they are finally settled and put into force.

  Committee on Consular Service.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: To ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will state the names of the members of the Committee now inquiring into the Consular Service, and why the distribution of the Service is not included in the terms of reference.
  (Answered by Lord Cranborne.) I have already stated to the House that the inquiry is a Departmental inquiry, and that, according to the practice in such cases, it would certainly be impossible to promise the publication of the Report until the Secretary of State shall have had an opportunity of considering it. The question of giving the terms of the reference upon which the Report will be founded seems naturally to depend upon what is ultimately decided in regard to the publication of the Report. The last Question I answered on the 10th instant.†

  Delays in the Dublin Courts.
  DR. THOMPSON: To ask Mr. Attorney General for Ireland
  † See page 453.

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  whether his attention has been directed to the delays in. cases pending trial in the Dublin Four Courts, especially in the Court of the Lord Chief Justice; and if he will take steps to prevent a continuance of this delay.
  (Answered by Mr. Atkinson.) My attention has not been called to any cases of delays in pending trials. As far as I have been able to ascertain no such delays exist. It is open to any person who alleges he has been delayed to apply to the Court to expedite the hearing of his case. As far as I have been able to ascertain no such applications have been made. I have no power to interfere as suggested, and if I had the power the occasion does not appear to have arisen for the exercise of it.

  Discharging Firearms on the Public Road.
  MR. JOHN CAMPBELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that on the evening of 18th October, while the Tullyvallen National Flute Band were playing along the road near Silverbridge, County Armagh, one Robert Coulter came out of his house and fired four shots from a revolver at them while two constables from Cullyhanna were then present; and whether he will take steps to prosecute this man.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) A prosecution has been ordered in this case.

  Officers' Barracks Furniture.
  MR. HALSEY: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether officers who have joined the Army during the War, and have served in South Africa up to the present time and are now returning home, can be provided with furnished quarters on the same terms as those joining the Army on or after 1st December, 1902.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The officers referred to will be granted furniture on the same terms as those joining on or after 1st December.

  South Africa—Treatment of Prisoners of War (British Subjects).
  MR. T. M. HEALY: To ask the Secretary of State for War what steps do the Government mean to take with regard to prisoners of war who were
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  British subjects some time previous to the declaration of war in South Africa; whether some of the above, who are clerks in the commandants' offices, are to be allowed to go back to South Africa; are exceptions to be made, or will all such prisoners of war be permitted to return; do the Government intend to recognise as burghers all prisoners of war whose papers were signed before the declaration of war; and when do the Government propose releasing all prisoners of war, or taking steps to secure their discharge from custody.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Chamberlain.) Prisoners of war who were British subjects previous to the outbreak of the war are not in the position of burghers of the late Republics, and are therefore not entitled to be sent back to South Africa tinder the terms of surrender. His Majesty's Government cannot recognise any naturalisation on or after 29th September, 1899, on which date the Volksraad of the South African Republic passed a resolution referring to the war which, it was stated, threatened to break out between the Republic and Great Britain, and promising burghership to all who assisted the Republic. It is hoped that the return of all prisoners of war who came within the terms of surrender will be complete early next year.

  1st and 2nd Army Corps—Number of Effective Men.
  MR. PIRIE: To ask the Secretary of State for War can he state the number of effective non-commissioned officers and men of over three months service in the 1st and 2nd Army Corps respectively, giving the numbers of regulars, militia, and efficient volunteers.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The detailed figures required can only be obtained by calling for Returns from each unit concerned. Every effort is now being made to cut down Returns, and the hon. Member will doubtless agree as to the undesirability of calling for the figures.

  Volunteer Regulations—Exemptions from Camp Attendance.
  SIR EDWARD STRACHEY: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether, considering the

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  fact that a number of old volunteers, many of them the best shots in their battalions, cannot comply with the new regulations respecting attendance at camp, he will consider the advisability of making some concession to men who have served for a period, say, of ten or fifteen years, allowing attendance at camp in their case to be optional.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) If the hon. Member will kindly refer to Army Order 119 of 1902 lie will find that the regulations therein set forth apply to these cases. The selection of the officers and volunteers to be exempted from attendance at camp rests with the commanding officer. It is not held practicable to make length of service, apart from other conditions, a definite qualification for exemption in the manner suggested by the hon. Member.

  Mountain and Garrison Artillery.
  MR. D. A. TIIOMAS: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether the Mountain Artillery is a senior service to the Garrison Artillery, though a branch of it, and if officers are recommended for promotion to the former from the Royal Garrison Artillery; whether, seeing that officers of Horse Artillery receive higher rates of pay than those of Field Artillery, he will say why officers of the Mountain Artillery, though they have the care of mules and horses as well as of guns, and their cost of living is higher, receive lower pay than the officers of Garrison Artillery.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick) The Mountain Division of the Royal Garrison Artillery is not viewed as senior to the rest, but officers are, in each rank, selected from garrison companies for appointment to the mountain batteries. As regards the pay, the officers of the Mountain Artillery have no armament under their charge, and therefore are not qualified for the special pay peculiar to the garrison companies.

  Newfoundland—Preferential Tariff for Empire Products.
  MR. JAMES LOWTHER: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has any information to the effect that the
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  Government of the British Colony of Newfoundland is proposing to enter into a treaty with the United States of America, by which the Colony binds itself not to accord any preferential trading facilities to goods from the Mother Country or other portions of the British Empire; and, if so, whether the Imperial Government will withhold its consent from such a provision.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Chamberlain.) The Convention which has been signed does not contain any general stipulation of the nature set forth in the question. Article IV. gives a list of articles which, while the Convention is in force, are to be admitted into Newfoundland free of duty, and a further list of articles upon which the rate of duty is not to exceed a specified amount, while Article V. provides that "if any reduction is made by the Colony of Newfoundland at any time during the term of the Convention, in the rate of duty upon the articles named in Article IV. of this Convention, the said reduction of duty shall apply to the United States." The articles specified are flour, pork, bacon, hams and tongues, smoked beef and sausages, beef, pigs' heads, hocks and feet (salted and cured), Indian meal, peas, oatmeal, rice, kerosine oil.

  Working of the Local Government Act in County Monaghan.
  MR. LONSDALE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether representations have been made to him respecting the working of the Local Government Act in County Monaghan; and whether he will institute inquiry into the circumstances with a view to the re-arrangement of the electoral ons
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) Any representations made to the Local Government Board on the subject will be dealt with in the manner provided by Article 25 of the Schedule to The Local Government, (Application of Enactments) Order 1898.

  Spread of Consumption in Ireland.
  DR. THOMPSON: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware of the increasing

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  prevalence of consumption in Ireland; and if he will direct the Local Government Board to point out to the local authorities the importance of providing in each county a properly equipped sanatorium for the treatment of such cases.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The reply to the first inquiry is in the affirmative. The matter has engaged the most careful consideration of the Local Government Board, who have repeatedly directed the attention of sanitary authorities to the best means of preventing the further spread of this disease. In their Circular Letter of 16th September, 1901, the Board strongly urged upon boards of guardians the advisability of either making special arrangements with the managers of existing sanatoria for consumptives, or themselves erecting such sanatoria for the curative treatment of this disease. The Board have recently called upon their medical inspectors to furnish Reports as to the action taken in each district.

  Emyvale Dispensary (County Monaghan)—Salary of Medical Officer.
  DR. THOMPSON: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state why the Local Government Board for Ireland reduced the salary of the medical officer of the Emyvale (County Monaghan) Dispensary below the sum arranged by the local authority.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The Board of Guardians proposed to fix the salary at £160 a year. Having regard, however, to the salaries paid to medical officers of other dispensary districts in the union, and to the general circumstances of the several districts, the Local Government Board considered that the salary should be fixed at £145.

(2.15.) QUESTIOATS IN THE HOUSE.

  Navy—New Zealand Coal for the China Squadron.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS (Merthyr Tydvil): I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the New Zealand coal being supplied for the use of the China Squadron is similar to that given in the Table of Analysis on page 351 of
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  the New Zealand Official Year Book for 1901, as produced at Coalbrookdale or to that produced at Westport.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. ARNOLD - FORSTER,): The coal supplied to the China Squadron is that produced at Granite Creek, about twenty miles from Westport. Coalbrookdale coal is produced at the Dormiston mines, also near Westport. A cargo of the latter coal is about to be tried on the China Station.

  Russia and Afghanistan.
  SIR CHARLES DUKE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he has any information to the effect that on 5th September the Amir of Afghanistan read in Durbar a direct communication from the Russian Government, or to the effect that the Governor of Afghan-Turkestan has received from the Governor of the adjoining part of Russian-Turkestan a message as to direct commercial relations across the Amu-Dania.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Lord GEORGE HAMILTON,): I have no information as to these alleged communications.

  Judicial Administration in Bengal Presidency.
  MR. BARLOW: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been directed to the number of cases awaiting hearing on the original and appellate sides of the High Court of Judicature at Fort William in the Presidency of Bengal, and to the fact that the administration of criminal appeals is such that persons on short terms of imprisonment who have not been released on bail will probably serve their term before their appeals are heard, he can make arrange merits to expedite the administration of justice in that Presidency.
  LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: In April last I sanctioned the strengthening of the original side of the High Court at Calcutta by the appointment of an additional Judge with the necessary establishment in order to cope with the arrears

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  of business on that side, and at the same time made suggestions for distributing the business of the Court so as to expedite its disposal on the appellate side. I am not aware that there is any such complaint as is indicated in the Question as to criminal appeals, to which precedence is always given over other business, but I will make enquiries. I may remind the hon. Member that for the last two and a half months the Court has been closed for the vacation.

  China Mails.
  MR HENNIKER, HEATON: I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether he is aware that letters from China now arrive by the overland route in this country in twenty-six days, as against forty-four days by the mail steamships; and whether he will take this fact into consideration when revising the mail contracts.
  THE POSTMASTER GENERAL (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN,): I believe it to be the fact that letters can be sent from Chifu to London in twenty-six days. The possibilities of the Trans-Siberian route will not be overlooked in settling the mail service of the future.

  P. and O. and Orient Mail Contracts,
  MR. HENNIKER HEATON: I beg to ask the Postmaster General if he will state when the P. and O. and Orient mail steamship contracts for the conveyance of mails to India, China, and Australia will terminate; when will new tenders be invited; and what steps are being taken to meet the difficulties now presenting themselves in regard to the employment of coloured labour on the mail steamships to Australia.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN; These contracts are terminable on or after 31st January, 1905, by two years previous notice. I cannot at present fix a date for calling for new tenders. Any questions that arise in regard to them will have to be discussed by the different Governments concerned.

  Re-direction of Telegrams.
  MR. HENNIKER, HEATON: I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether in view of the fact that halfpenny
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  circulars are re-directed free of charge by post while telegraphic messages cannot be so re-directed, he will give directions for the re-direction of telegrams free of charge by post.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: My hon. friend is probably aware that his suggestion has been considered by previous Postmasters General, who have not seen their way to adopt it. I will, however, look into the matter again.

  Age Retirements in the Telegraph Service.
  MR. FENWICK: I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether, in the interests of the public and the staff, he will consider the advisability of enforcing the retirement of telegraph officials at the age of sixty years; and whether he will grant a Return showing the number of men retained after that age in the Telegraph Department, with the reasons that made an extension of time necessary.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I do not consider it advisable to alter the present practice regarding the retirement of telegraph (or other) officials at the age of sixty years. The rule at present is that all pensionable officers, of whatever grade, whose conduct, capacity and efficiency fall below a fair standard, shall be called upon to retire at sixty; but retirement at sixty is not enforced in the case of officers whose conduct is good and who are certified by their superior officers as thoroughly effic ent. On this explanation perhaps the hon. Member will consider a Return such as he asks for unnecessary.

  Welsh and Irish-speaking Postal Officials
  MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether he can state how many officials from English and Scotch post offices have been appointed as post office officials in Welsh-speaking districts in Wales since 1st January last; and how many English and Scotch officials have been appointed to Irish post offices during the same period.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Seventeen officers from English and Scotch post offices have been appointed

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  to offices in Welsh-speaking districts in Wales since the 1st of January last and seventeen officers from English and Scotch post offices have, during the same period, been appointed to Irish post offices. I am not able to state the nationality of these officers.
  MR. TULLY: Will the right hon. Gentleman insist on them having a knowledge of the Irish language?
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: have already said I cannot do that.

  Sir Horace Rumbold's Reminiscences.
  MR. MALCOLM: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Sir Horace Rumbold, lately His Majesty's Ambassador at Vienna, and now in receipt of a pension out of public moneys, had the sanction of His Majesty's Government in publishing a volume of reminiscences containing private conversations and other matters relating to countries to which he was accredited.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE Fort FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Lord CRANBORNE,): No application was made by Sir Horace Rumbold for the sanction of His Majesty's Government. But in cases where the reminiscences are not of recent date, and are confined to personal incidents and matters of public notoriety, such sanction has not apparently been considered essential. Any such publication by a former representative of this country without the leave of the Secretary of State, would, if it related to recent events which have come under the writer's notice in the course of his official duties, be most reprehensible, and His Majesty's Government are considering whether it will not be advisable to take steps in order to leave no room for doubt as to the manner in which they regard the subject.

  Land Grants in British East African Protectorates.
  MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will state the conditions on which land is granted to intending settlers in
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  the Protectorates of British East Africa and Uganda; whether any land is granted freehold; what is the maximum period for which leases are granted; and whether he has any official communications on these points from the Chief Commissioners of those Protectorates.
  LORD CRANBORNE: I shall be happy to give the hon. Gentleman a copy of the East African Crown Lands Ordinance, 1902, which will give him a great deal of the information he requires. The corresponding Ordinance for Uganda has not yet been enacted.

  Larbert Railway Accident.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the train which left Kyle at 11.25 a.m., on 30th July last, was delayed through a breakdown or collision at Larbert; and will he state whether a Board of Trade inquiry has been held in regard to the cause of the accident; and, if so, with what result.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR,): The accident in question was duly notified to the Board of Trade, and upon consideration of the information supplied, the Board were advised that the case was not one in which it was necessary to order an official inquiry.

  District Council Building Bye-Laws.
  MAJOR RASCH: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that the conditions and restrictions placed upon the erection of cottages by the District Councils render it practically impossible to build them; and will he state by what rules the Local Government Board are guided in approving the. bye-laws proposed by these Councils.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. COCHRANE,): My right hon. friend has asked me to answer the question in his absence. I am not aware that the building of cottages has become a practical impossibility owing to the conditions and restrictions imposed by District Councils, but my attention has

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  been drawn to some cases where difficulty has been experienced on account of the requirements of the building bye-laws in force. In approving bye-laws with respect to new buildings, the Local Government Board are chiefly concerned to see that they are such as the local authority may legally make, and are sufficient to secure proper conditions, especially as regards stability and sanitation. I am not in a position to state what bye-laws are needed in particular districts. The responsibility rests with the District Conned in each instance of determining what bye-laws they will propose. Notice is given in the district by advertisements before bye-laws are confirmed, and any objections made to me with regard to them would have my careful consideration. I may add that I have recently issued a mo, titled code of model bye-laws for use in rural districts which are specially suited for these districts, and from which are omitted certain requirements usually in force in urban districts.

  Buncrana and Carndonagh Railway.
  MR. O'DOHERTY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that since the opening of the Buncrana and Carndonagh Railway, after providing for working expenses, there has been a surplus profit in each half year, and that prior to the opening of the line the guaranteeing area had to provide certain sums for dividends on the £5,000 baronial guaranteed shares; and, seeing that, notwithstanding Section 5 of The Tramways (Ireland) Act, 1883, up to the present the surplus profits have been divided between the working company and -die Treasury, will he take steps to have the provisions of the Act enforced in this case.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. HAYES FISHER,): The answer to the first question is in the affirmative. I understand that the County Council of Donegal paid interest amounting to £91 18s. 2d. to the Lough Swills Co. in respect of the half year ended 31st December, 1900, and £100 in respect of the half year ended 30th June, 1901. The Board of Works were no parties to tins arrangement. The Board are advised that the county was not bound to make any payment under the guarantee until after the line was opened, and that payments made for a period an-
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  terior to the opening of the line were voluntary payments not contemplated by the Tramways Act of 1883, and consequently that Section 5 of the Tramways Act of 1883 does not apply.
  MR. O'OHERTY: Seeing that the Treasury have received a portion of the money which should not have been paid, will it refund it to the county?
  MR. HATES FISHER: I will consider that.

  Tolsta (Island of Lewis) School,
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate if he will state the number of children who are on the register of the piddle school at Tolsta, Island of Lewis, the period the school has been closed during the last six months, and the cause.
  THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAY,): The number of pupils on the register of the public school at Tolsta at the end of the last school year was 196. The school was closed on the 3rd July by order of the Medical Officer of Health owing to au outbreak of typhoid fever. No notice of its being re-opened has been received. (13th November, 1902.)

  Southwark Denominational Schools.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: I beg be to ask the hon. Member for the West Salford Division whether his attention has been drawn to the tact that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners applied last year to the rebuilding of certain denominational schools in Southwark a sum of £1,500 derived from funds belonging to the ecclesiastical branch of the City Parochial Charities Fund, which is prescribed by the City Parochial Charities Act, 1883, to be applied only to the maintenance of the fabric of churches and other ecclesiastical purposes; and, if so, in view of the provisions of the Act, will he explain why such action has been sanctioned.
  MR. LEES KNOWLES: The objects to which the funds paid to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners under the City Parochial Charities Act may be applied are by the Act described in such terms as to leave to the Commissioners a wider discretion than would appear from

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  one hon, Member's Question, and, taking into consideration the special needs of the schools referred to in the Question. and the wants of the parish served by them, the Board considered the grant to be a legitimate application of a part of those funds.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: It is specifically stated that the funds are to be applied to ecclesiastical purposes.
  MR LEES KNOWLES: The hon. Gentleman's paraphrase has narrowed the meaning of the section.
  MR. BRYCE: As I was responsible for the drafting of this Act, may I ask on which words the hon. Gentleman relies?
  MR. LEES KNOWLES: The terms are rather lengthy.
  MR. BRYCE: Will the lion. Gentleman be good enough to read the terms?
  MR. LEES KNOWLES: Yes, the terms are as follows—
  "To he applied" (by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners) "to the maintenance of the fabric of churches or to the better endowment of existing benefices, or to giving theological instruction to persons preparing for holy orders, or generally to extending the benefit of clerical or spiritual ministrations in accordance with the doctrines or by the ministers of the Church of England as by law established in the more populous districts of the metropolis."
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: Perhaps I may explain that I proposed to include the words in my Question, but the Clerk at the Table thought it too long, and I therefore had to paraphrase it.
  MR. LEES KNOWLES: I regret that the paraphrase is not wide enough.

  Countesthorpe School Board.
  MR. LOGAN: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Education if he is aware that three letters, dated 29th September, 20th October, and 3rd November respectively, have been sent to the Board of Education by Mr. W. H. Herbert, a member of the Countesthorpe (Leicestershire) School Board, a ratepayer in that
  876
  parish, complaining that his child, aged six years, has been expelled from the board school, by a resolution of the School Board, carried by the casting vote of the chairman, the vicar of the parish (although there are vacant places in the board school), with the object of compelling him, a Nonconformist, to send his child to the Church of England school in the parish; and, seeing that up to the present Mr. Herbert has received only formal acknowledgments of the receipt of his letters, if he will state what steps the Board of Education proposes to take to protect the rights of this parent, and to prevent a recurrence of such cases. In putting the Question, may I express my regret that there is an inaccuracy in it as it appears on the Paper. I understand that the vicar, although the chairman of the Board, was not in the chair at the time of the occurrence.
  THE SECRETARY OF THE BOARD or EDUCATION (Sir WILLIAM ANSON,): The Board of Education have been in communication with the School Board on the subject. This was explained to Mr. Herbert in reply to his second letter. There is no accommodation for infants at the Countesthorpe board school. If the infant referred to is qualified for promotion at the end of the school year (December 31st), it will be admitted to the board school as an "older scholar." The Board of Education are not aware of any special reason for its earlier promotion, but further inquiry will be made. The hon. Member has been good enough to explain to me that the vicar was not present at the meeting of the School Board when the vote was taken.

  Education Bill—Transferred Denominational Schools.
  MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether under the Education Bill an elementary school built by voluntary subscribers, but leased to a School Board, would have the status of a school provided by the education authority, or of a school not provided by the education authority; and what would be the position of such a school after the lease has terminated.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSON: A school leased to a local education authority will be deemed to be a school provided by that authority. The latter part of the hon. Member's Question was answered by the First Lord of the Treasury in his reply to the Member for Denbighshire West on 5th November.†
  MR. CHARLES ALLEN: Arising out of that answer, may I ask whether, in view of the great public interest taken in this question, and the fact that Amendments dealing with it have been closured, an opportunity will be given for the full discussion of the transfer of schools.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSON: I cannot on behalf of the Government give an undertaking to that effect. The matter has been very fully discussed.

  Limavady Sessions—Henry and others v. Hamill and Moody.
  MR. TULLY: I beg to ask Mr. Attorney General for Ireland whether his attention has been directed to the case of Henry and others v. Hamill and Moody at the recent quarter sessions in Limavady; and whether, in view of the rights of property involved and which were left undecided, he proposes to take any action in the matter.
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. ATKINSON,): This was a civil action, and an appeal to the Judge of Assizes has been fudged. Even independently of this latter circumstance, it is not a case for the intervention of the Executive.

  Londonderry and Donegal Union Boundaries.
  MR. O'DOWERTY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland when the Irish Local Government Board propose to hold the inquiry, already promised by them, with reference to the change of union boundaries in the counties of Londonderry and Donegal.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM,): Before taking further action in the matter, the Board considers it desirable that the recently elected local bodies, who are affected by the proposal, should have an
  † See page 149.
  878
  opportunity of expressing their views upon it.

  Roscrea Petty Sessional Bench.
  MR. CAREW: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been directed to a prosecution by the inspector of weights and measures at the last Roscrea Petty Sessions, when one of the presiding magistrates charged a solicitor with trying to upset the Court, and then left the Bench, so that the case could not be proceeded with and whether, to prevent in the future inconvenience, he will recommend the Lord Chancellor to appoint more justices of the peace in this district.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I am informed that there are usually five or six magistrates in attendance at these sessions, and that it rarely happens that only two are present. Applications for appoint-merits to the commission should be made to the lieutenant of the county

  Dispensary Doctors as County Councillors
  MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state on what grounds the Local Government Board issued a sealed order prohibiting the election of dispensary doctors as county councillors; why was this order cancelled and a new sealed order issued declaring that no county councillor shall be qualified to be or continue as a poor law medical officer.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Both orders were made by the Board in the interests of the sick and destitute poor. The first order was rescinded in order to substitute the second, which secures the same object in a more correct manner.

  Teaching of the Irish Language.
  MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state what are the regulations that prevent the Department of Agriculture sanctioning the expenditure of funds by the Agricultural and Technical Instruction Committees of County Councils in the furtherance of instruction in the Irish language: and whether he proposes to remedy this matter.
  MR. WYNDHAM: There are no specific regulations of the kind referred to. Every application to the Department for such assistance is dealt with according to the particular circumstances of the case.

  Belfast Police.
  MR SLOAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland how many police barracks are there in Belfast; the number of sergeants in each; and to what denomination do they belong.
  MR. WYNDHAM: This information cannot conveniently be given in the form of an answer to a Question, and I have, therefore, communicated it to my hon. friend.

  Drogheda School Teacher.
  MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether any reply has been made to the complaint of the Rev. J. Curry, P.P., Drogheda, that the head teacher of the school of which he is manager has been subjected by the new rules to a loss of £ a year; and if he can state how similar complaints from other clerical managers and teachers in Ireland have been dealt with.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I received a letter from Father Curry, dated October 30th, and sent him an acknowledgment. I have since made an exhaustive examination into the cases submitted. I cannot undertake, as a general rule, to correspond at length over questions of administration with which the National Board is charged by statute. But, as these cases are typical, I propose to send the result of my inquiry to the rev. gentleman.

  Use of Irish Courthouses by Rural District Councils.
  MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief ecretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ire-and whether he can state the number of courthouses the use of which has been refused by the authorities to Rural District Councils for their quarterly meetings or road sessions; and whether the use of these buildings was refused to presentment sessions for meetings for road business prior to 1889.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The District Councils have no legal right to the use of
  880
  courthouses. In some few instances, I believe, the high sheriffs and magistrates, the proper authorities, have, for reasons which appeared to them adequate, refused the District Councils permission to use these courthouses. But I have no information before me which would enable me to give a more definite reply-to either part of the Question.
  In reply to a further Question by Mr. TULLEX—
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid the County Councils had a right to the use of the courthouses, subject to certain statutory limitations, but District Councils had no such right.

  Irish Union Amalgamation.
  MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has received from Strokestown Union, and also from unions in the county Leitrim, resolutions in favour of union amalgamation; and whether, in view of the importance of this question in Ireland, he will appoint, a Commission to inquire into it, with power to dissolve unions that are no longer necessary.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Such resolutions have been received. The general question of union amalgamation has engaged the attention of the Local Government Board, and investigations have been in progress for some time past. The matter is admittedly one of much importance, and I shall consider during the Recess the means best adapted to attain the object in view.
  MR. TULLY: Will the right hon. Gentleman be prepared to receive a deputation from the unions interested?
  MR. WYNDHAM: I could not receivea deputation before January. If the hon. Member will communicate with me I will consider the matter.

  Mr. Joseph Macauley, J.P.
  MR. SLOAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to a speech reported to have been delivered by a Mr. Joseph Macauley, J.P., at Belfast Water Board, on 6th

  881
  inst., where it was proposed to present an address to His Excellency the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland; and what action, if any, the Government intend taking in the matter.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I have seen a news paper report of the speech in question The Executive is only concerned with speeches that involve a breach of the law.
  MR. SLOAN: Do I understand that a disloyal speech made against the Crown by a J.P. is not a direct violation of the obligation taken by him?
  MR. WYNDHAM: I think the hon. Member will see that we cannot discuss by way of Question and answer the exact character of the speech. It involved no breach of the law.
  MR. TULLY: Has the right hon. Gentleman read the violent speeches of Orange magistrates?

  Carndonagh Mail Service.
  MR. O'DOHERTY: I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether complaints have been received by the Post Office authorities with reference to the late delivery of letters in Carndonagh and district silica the railway company began to convey the mails to that town from Londonderry; whether the mail service since the opening of the new Buncrana and Carndonagh Railway costs the Post Office less now than formerly: and whether he will arrange for the arrival of the mails at Carndonagh earlier than they arrive at present.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Inquiry is being made on the subject, and an answer shall be sent to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Education Bill Rate.
  SIR JAMES RANRIN: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the product of the penny rate referred to in the Amendment to the Education Bill, put down by him after Clause 10 of the Bill, is intended to be the product of a penny rate charged on the full assessment the rateable property of the area rated,
  882
  or only the product of the penny rate after the allowance of half the amount on agricultural land has been made.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): The answer to my hon. friend is that the latter of the two alternatives the latter of the alternatives that he suggests is the correct one.

  Proposed Ministry of Commerce.
  MR. LOUIS SINCLAIR.: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he will consider the desirability of the appointment of a Minister of Commerce, or of such a reform of the Board of Trade as to meet the demands of the commercial community of this country, that questions of trade and commerce shall be administered by a Minister equipped with greater powers.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: In answer to the Question of my hon. friend, I have to say that I think I have indicated on previous occasions, and in reply to Questions from other quarters of the House, that I do not see that the position of the Board of Trade could be dealt with in isolation or apart from the general consideration of the position of the various Government offices. I am nor quite sure whit additional powers my hon. friend refers to in the last paragraph of his Question.

  Naval Administration.
  SIR WILLIAM ALLAN: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, having regard to the failures of vessels of His Majesty's Navy, both when under trial and at sea, and the number of new vessels now condemned to costly repairs; also taking into consideration the cost of repairs as given in the late Return on Navy Boilers, he will consider the desirability of instituting by Royal Commission an into the Admiralty administration of naval affairs, especially as regards types of vessels, machinery, guns, men, and reserves.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The hon. Gentleman complains of the boiler policy of the Admiralty in the first part of the Question, and on that subject there has

  883
  been a Committee of Inquiry, as he knows. I think the fact that, in the lion. Gentleman's judgment, the boiler policy of the Admiralty is not a satisfactory one, is hardly a sufficient reason for demanding a Royal Commission to inquire into the general administration of naval affairs—"types of vessels, machinery, guns, men, and reserves." It seems to go a good deal beyond boilers.
  SIR WILLIAM ALLAN: May I say I am not dealing with boilers exclusively. Am I to understand that the Government will do nothing to restore the confidence of the country in the Navy and its administration?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I hope that that confidence still remains unshaken, but, if it be shaken, I am very confident that a Royal Commission will not restore it.

  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith), in the Chair.]
  Clause 13:—
  Amendment proposed.
  "In page 5, line 21, after the word 'council,' to insert the words including the reasonable travelling expenses of the members of the Education Committee.'"—(Mr. Soares.)
  Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
  "To leave out the first word the,' and insert the word 'such.'"—(Mr. Lyttelton.)
  Question again proposed, "That the first word 'the' stand part of the proposed Amendment."
  (2.40.) THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. WALTER LONG,)said that when the Committee adjourned on the preceding night they were in the midst of a very interesting debate. He had found it impossible to reply in a word or two to the suggestions put forward from both sides of the House, and he therefore now proposed to
  884
  state as briefly as he could the view of the Government on the present proposal. They shared as fully as anybody the desire that the attendance of all classes on the governing bodies should be as regular as possible. But he was bound to look at this question from the general point of view of local government. Hon. Gentlemen had sought to prove that there was a distinction between the committee of the local education authority and the committees of other bodies. So no doubt there was, but he doubted very much whether the distinction told in favour of the Amendment now under discussion. They had been told that it was very desirable that working men, whose interest in the educational system of their districts was very great, he might say greater than that of any other class, should be on the committee, but they were also told that the position of the education committee was one entirely subordinate to the local education authority. It was not the controlling body that was to be strengthened by the addition of working class members, it was only the intermediate authority. He thought that told rather against the Amendment than for it. He must ask the Committee not to be misled on this matter. If this proposal was adopted they would open a door which they would not be able to shut again. It was not for him to dictate to the Committee as to whether the change would be for better or for worse. But he had had some experience of local government, and he would ask whether there were not many men claiming to represent this or that particular interest, but not belonging to the industrial classes, who would be attracted to these governing bodies directly they were sure they would he relieved of all costs. No doubt the proposal before the Committee was a guarded one, but how were they going to keep it within such narrow limits? They were asked to only sanction reasonable travelling expenses. What were the travelling expenses of a member of the committee? Was it realised that in many of these cases miles of roads had to be travelled over—that frequently it entailed a journey the day before? [Cheers.] He appreciated those cheers. It made the position of the workman harder still, but the real difficulty was not the expenses. There was

  885
  also the loss of one or two days work. There were committees of the County Council whose work, in his judgment, was quite as important—in the interests of the working classes—as that of a committee of the local education authority. Let them take the case of the Lunatic Asylums Committee. In the work of that body the working man had a special interest. The asylums were often situated in a distant corner of the county, but the committee had to meet regularly, and its members had to travel long journeys in order to get there. Their proceedings were keenly watched by the working classes, whose relatives had unfortunately so often to take refuge within the walls of the institution The members of the committee were not reimbursed their expenses. [Cries of "They are paid."] No, travelling expenses were only paid in cases where the asylum or workhouse was outside the county area, and where the members of the committee had consequently to travel beyond that area. They received nothing when they merely had to travel from I heir own homes to a place within the county area.
  MR. HERERT LEWIS: Under the schemes passed wider the Welsh Intermediate Education Act, third class travelling expenses are paid to members attending not only the meetings of the central board, but also the meetings of the county governing bodies.
  Mr. WALTER LONGsaid he was not aware of that. He was dealing with the local authorities which were within the cognisance of his Department, and with which he had personal contact. He might take another illustration. Hon. Members familiar with the North of England, knew that there were many unions where the guardians had miles of roads to traverse in order to get to workhouses near to which there was no railway station. They had to attend a variety of committees, but they were not paid their expenses. He was not arguing against the principle of reasonable travelling expenses, but he was trying to point out that there was a practical difficulty in limiting the expenses in the way proposed in this Amendment. It was not for him nor for the Government to ask the Committee not to take this
  886
  step if they thought it a right step to take. But let them take it with their eyes open, and not, as they were asked to take it on the previous night, on the ground that this proposal could be limited within these narrow lines. This proposal was far too serious for the Government, to give their assent to it. There were no exceptional circumstances in regard to the education committee which did not apply to other committees. If this proposal was adopted, he thought they would find that pressure would be exercised to grant the same privileges to members of other local authorities, and that pressure they would not be able to resist. Then it would be but a short step to the House of Commons. Hitherto they had successfully, and as he believed rightly, resisted all proposals to cast on public funds the costs incurred by men who were members of these local governing bodies. If they now gave way in this case they would be unable to stop at the payment of travelling expenses; every man who devoted himself to local or public service would expect to have extended to him the right to payment of all out-of-pocket expenses. This was therefore a much wider question than that of the local education committees, and he would ask the Committee not on this occasion by a side wind to upset the principle which Parliament had hitherto upheld, but to adhere to the sound principle that those who took part in local or Imperial government should do so with all the risks and loss that the service entailed.
  SIR WILLLAM HARCOURTsaid the argnment of the right hon. Gentleman meant that it was impossible that men of humble means could take part in the administration of this Act. [MINISTERIAL cries of "Nothing of the kind."] The right hon. Gentleman agreed that long distances would have to be travelled, and that men of humble means would not be able to undertake the work.
  MR. WALTER LONGsaid the right hon. Gentleman entirely misrepresented what he had said. He had pointed out that the expenses could not be limited as it was proposed to limit them in this Amendment. Men of the very class the

  887
  right hon. Gentleman alluded to found means of attending the meetings of Boards of Guardians without having their expenses paid.
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURTsaid men of humble means could not afford to travel long distances by train or carriage. To his mind the interruption of the hon. Member for the Flint Boroughs disposed of the whole argument of the right hon. Gentleman. This terrible precedent which was to ruin our local administration had been in operation for a considerable time in Wales. There they had long distances to travel, and railway communication was by no means easy. It seemed to hint to be a simple proposition. What was there in it to give rise to this alarm? He thought the Committee would do extremely well to accept the Amendment.
  MR.MILVAINsaid the argument of the last speaker reminded him of the tale of the little boy who when remonstrated with for pitting out his tongue to his master replied that it was only a little one. He could not help thinking that those who were advocating the payment of these expenses out of the rates had their little tongues in their cheek. He was strongly opposed to the Amendment. In his estimation, working men were a fetish, unduly worshipped in this House. But by this Amendment it was proposed to pay the travelling expenses, not of working men, but of the committee, and these expenses might include their day's work and their food. If they sanctioned the payment of the expenses of members of our representative institutions, they opened the floodgates of unlimited expense. Hon. Members opposite claimed "economy" and "efficiency" as their watchwords. Where was the economy to be found in paying the expenses of their representatives on representative institutions? He could not see it in view of the fact that there were so many men of leisure and ability will-mg to do the work for nothing. This proposal had been made before, and always successfully resisted on the ground that it was not consistent with economy. If it was admitted now it would he without precedent, and would be admitted for the first time in the
  888
  legislation of this House. If they paid the expenses of the education committees it would conduce not to efficiency but to jobbery; it might lead to outside influences being brought to hear on the County Councils to elect a class of man whose services would not conduce to efficiency. Upon these grounds he should vote against the Amendment.
  MR. GOULDINGsaid this was a matter of vital importance to working men and people with small means, and he had always contended that the parents of the children who went to these schools should be able to see that the education given to their children was such as they approved of, and this it was quite impossible for them to do unless the Bill was amended in the direction proposed. It was stated that the payment of travelling expenses was introducing a new principle; but on the London County Council the committees had conveyances supplied to carry them round on inspection work, and when railways were more convenient for the purpose of conveyance in carrying out inspection railway fares were paid. Had this been a question of payment for services on the committee he should not have supported the Amendment, but this was a case of enabling the parents of the children to serve on the committees, and it was on that ground that he supported it.
  (3.5.) SIR CHARLES DILKEexpressed his regret that the President of the Local Government Board should have run away immediately after having fired his shot, because he had made a confident statement which ought to receive an answer, and which would receive an answer that he ought to have stayed to hear. The right hon. Member for West Monmouth-shire who followed the right hon. Gentleman dealt with the subject generally and not specifically with regard to the present case. The hon. Member opposite and the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board both took the line which was familiar to all Government Departments. It was the line adopted by the Treasury with regard to every proposal made to them. The consecrated phrase of the Treasury to all the other Departments who made these

  889
  proposals was not couched in very good language. It was, "These proposals wind open a very serious door." He would be glad to see the "very serious door" opened to which the right hon. Gentleman objected. He would go even further. As a specific proposal this was much stronger than any other. In the case of Durham the county town was almost in the centre of the county, and around that town were a great many mines. The result was that the hon. Member for Mid Durham, and many miners of that district, were able to serve on the County Council; but in many mining counties School Boards were elected for particular districts, and on those boards admirable work was done. The parents of the children in the milling districts were keener about education than anybody else in those districts, and by the abolition of the School Boards these men would be knocked out of education altogether. The object of the Amendment was to retain the services of these men. The right hon. Gentleman was guilty of an error when he said there was no precedent for this; there was the Welsh precedent, and there was also the precedent that some members of the Fisheries Board were paid their expenses. This, therefore, was a practical Amendment. With regard to the Amendment to the Amendment, although, for convenience, a general discussion was being taken upon it, he thought the mover ought to say clearly how it was going to be dealt with. He was not quite clear as to its effect; if it allowed the counties to pick and choose it would be most objectionable. [An HON. MEMBER: That is what it does do!] If that was so, then, of course, it ought to be opposed. Those who had been able to pay their own expenses and who acted outside the area for local authorities had generally thought it their duty to accept their expenses along with the others, because they thought the question of expenses should be a general and not a particular one. The point upon which the President of the Local Government Board relied was merely technical. If a member of a Board of Guardians in the south-west of London paid a visit to the north-east of London, his expenses were paid. Surely a similar course might be taken in a large county where the
  890
  distances and the time occupied were much greater. It was not right to use the merely technical objection that in the former case the visit was outside the district. Many School Board areas would, under this Bill, be embraced within the new district⁁the county—and therefore members would have to travel altogether outside the existing districts. It was really on the lines of present practice to apply the Amendment to cases of that kind. On the grounds he had stated he should oppose the Amendment to the Amendment, and support the original proposal.
  MR. WINSTON CHURCHILLsaid that when his hon. and learned friend moved the Amendment to the Amendment on the previous night there was a considerable measure of agreement or approval on the Government side of the House, and no distinct expression of disagreement on the other side. It appeared now, however, that his hon. and learned friend was between the upper and nether millstones, inasmuch as his proposal neither commanded agreement on that side nor met with acceptance on the other. At the same time it was a most sensible and reasonable Amendment. There had been brought before the Committee two attitudes of mind, with neither of which he was able to sympathise or agree. The first was that of the President of the Local Government Board, who used the "open door" argument—that they were opening a door which they would never be able to shut. The door was, in fact, already open, and the present was not the period in our history in which to talk about the "thin end of the wedge." There were no great questions in which the thin end of the wedge had not already been inserted. The other attitude of mind was that of Labour members, who declared they were not ashamed to say they needed the money, but they would be ashamed to take it unless those who did not need it were also made to take it. That was a fantastic proposition to which very few Members on that side of the House, no matter how progressive their views might be, would be inclined to assent. Practically two considerations were before the Committee, each of which

  891
  was complicated and controversial, and each supported by a considerable body of opinion. The first was that they did not want to settle the great question of the payment of representatives on a side and comparatively small issue on an Education Bill. They, on that side, would not shrink from a settlement of that question. But he, personally, would draw a great distinction between travelling expenses and remuneration for actual services, whether in regard to Members of Parliament or members of local bodies. The second consideration had been urged by almost every speaker in the debate. The schools concerned were the schools attended by the children of the people in humble circumstances, and if there was any board upon which the working classes ought to be represented it was the education authority. It was quite evident, however, that it would be impossible for them to be so represented unless there travelling expenses to and from the place of meeting were defrayed. These two considerations came into collision, and out of that collision the present question arose. How were the two points of view to be reconciled? How were the poorer members of these authorities to be enabled to attend to their duties without at the same time conceding or affirming the great principle of the payment of representatives? The Amendment of his hon. and learned friend presented a safe, easy, clear, convenient, and suitable method of solving the problem. It conceded no great principle; it affirmed no small principle that had not already been conceded. On the other hand, it dealt with the immediate emergency, removed the actual concrete grievance operated through the very authority the Bill proposed to set up, and acted in a spirit of compromise which harmonised with the general principle of a Bill which in itself was a great compromise. If this half-way measure, this friendly and conciliatory Amendment, was to be treated with disdain and contumely by hon. Gentlemen opposite, he should certainly urge his hon. and learned friend not to press it, and then they on that side would have to go into the Division Lobby against the other side on the main principle. 1f, however, the Opposition were prepared to accept this
  892
  reasonable concession, they would meet with a certain amount of support on that side of the House.
  SIR WALTER FOSTERsaid that the Amendment to the Amendment, as interpreted by its mover, was one which many on that side could not accept. It would lead to diversity of practice in different parts of the country.
  MR. WINSTON CHURCHILL: Does not the hon. Member trust the discretion of the local authorities?
  SIR WALTER FOSTERsaid the discretion of every local authority would be influenced by local circumstances; and they would have a practice adopted on one side of the boundary which was not followed on the other, and friction and discontent would be the result. Private arrangements of this sort, in which money passed from one to another, were not desirable in the carrying on of local government except under uniform rules. He supported the original Amendment on the same ground as the President of the Local Government Board opposed it, viz., in the interests of local government. In numerous instances, efficient representatives had been obliged to give up their seats on County and Rural District Councils because they could not afford the travelling expenses and also the time to attend, and local government necessarily became less efficient in consequence. The question of the education of the children of the people was a wider interest than any other matter of local government, inasmuch as it affected every-family in the land. The management of lunatic asylums was not a fair parallel case, as that had to be carried on by specially qualified men, and only affected relatively few people. Many of the men who had served on the School Boards would be disfranchised from serving on the education committees, because of their inability to sit on the councils, and because working men could not afford to go from one end of the county to the other. He should certainly vote for the Amendment, because it would satisfy a just and righteous claim, and add to the efficiency of the education authority. He hoped

  893
  the First Lord of the Treasury, if he spoke again, would support the view of finding some way out of the difficulty in which they were placed.
  MR. WHARTONsaid the right hon. Gentleman had told them that this was part of a large matter. He wished to ask the Committee where was this matter going to stop? It would stop in this House and not before. If they were going to pay these particular men and women to come forward and offer their services, why should they not pay other men find other women who came forward? If they did that well and good. He warned the Committee that if they adopted this proposal it would not stop there. The President of the Local Government Board told them that the Amendment would open the door to a dangerous precedent. In this case he was not in favour of the policy of the open door.
  SIR JOSEPH LEESEsaid he was anxious that the Committee should not give up the Amendment to the Amendment in a hurry. He was of the opinion that his hon. and learned friend had put a wrong interpretation upon this proposal. In order to make the meaning clear he suggested the insertion of the word "all." It would then read—
  "Including such reasonable tra ling ex penses of all the menders of the education committee as the local education authority may think fit."
  Personally he was quite prepared to accept the words as they stood.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I hope the Division may very shortly be taken. Perhaps the Committee will think it only respectful that I should say one or two words upon the questions which have been raised. I am sorry that I was not present during the debate last night, as I should like to have heard the speeches, especially those made by hon. Gentlemen who claim, and claim justly, to specially represent the working classes, which I am informed were not only speeches of great ability but also showed great moderation. I had not that good fortune, and therefore I speak under
  894
  that disadvantage. I really have only two points to urge upon the Committee One is this: If you mean to make a great change in the existing practice with regard to the payment of expenses of persons serving upon public bodies is this Education Bill a convenient place to do it? [OPPOSITION cries of "Yes, it is."] I am aware that an hon. friend of mine below the gangway, and hon. Gentlemen opposite say that this is no innovation, and that it has already been made in the case of the Welsh Intermediate Education scheme and in the case of the London Government Bill. I do not think either of those measures is on all fours with the present scheme. In the first place the Welsh Intermediate scheme is different from this because it says that a third-class ticket is to be paid for from station to station, and that by no means covers the ground of expenses. That was not introduced in the debate on the Welsh Intermediate Education Act, but it was accepted as part of a scheme brought forward under the 1ct. That is very different from a precedent deliberately adopted by this House with regard to any great question of local government. The other question, I am distinctly informed by the President of the Local Government Board, is really no precedent at all, and if that takes place which my hon. friend tells us upon his authority, and from his own knowledge, does take place on the London County Council the London County Council are breaking the law and they are liable to be surcharged by some future Mr. Cockerton. So much for the two precedents which have been alleged. I think it will be admitted that they are hardly in front. I bring the Committee back to this: you are attempting to initiate a very great change in our practice as regards local government. Is this Education Bill an occasion to do it? I venture very strongly to urge upon the Committee that it is a most inconvenient occasion, partly because this Bill surely arouses enough controversies without importing this into it; and also because this Bill alone among local government Bills does give the smaller localities and parishes of all classes special opportunities of taking their share in the work of education. Let the Committee remember that while the committee whose expenses

  895
  are to be met is only an advisory committee, and advisory upon general principles, the actual management of the school rests, in the case of voluntary schools or non-provided schools, in a body of managers, necessarily local, one of which will be appointed by the minor local authority, the Parish Council or District Council, and the other will be appointed, no doubt, by the education authority, and they will probably appoint somebody intimately acquainted with the details of the work of that district and capable of attending, without great personal sacrifices, to the work. That is the case of the non-provided schools. As to the provided schools, it rests entirely with the education authority, who can take care—and certainly will take care—that the parents of the children will have an adequate opportunity of taking their share in the management. Therefore, I should say that of all Bills touching on local government this is the very last Bill upon which you ought to make this change, because the grievance which the hon. Gentleman so eloquently refers to exists in a far less degree than it does in any other county or borough work. There is one other reason which I will venture to urge upon the Committee, and it is that this is a very bad occasion on which to make this change. Last night we had a great debate in regard to the burden thrown upon the ratepayers by this Bill. I have never denied that the ratepayers of counties would desire to see the teachers better paid, and the schools better equipped than they are now, but when I have uttered these educational prophecies I have been met by the answer that the ratepayers will be so reluctant to pay that they will starve the schools. I do not think they will, but I do think that an Amendment of this kind in creases the temptation thrown upon them to starve education. Remember also that every shilling you take out of the rates for the purpose of paying the travelling expenses of members is money taken away from the higher purposes of education, which this Bill is intended to serve, and I would seriously suggest to the Committee that it is most unwise for us to make the burden thrown upon the rates by this Bill heavier and more onerous than it would otherwise be. The
  896
  Committee will observe that I have carefully refrained from making any pronouncement upon the broad question of this Amendment. It is far too large a question to be touched upon at the end of an enormous discussion like that which has taken place upon this Bill. Let the House, when the proper occasion comes, deal with it as a whole as affecting every branch of public administration, and affecting both local and Imperial government, but do not take this occasion of the thirty-ninth day of the Committee stage of this Bill to initiate for the first time in our County Councils and municipal legislation, a change which must inevitably have such far-reaching effects in the future.
  MR. BRYCEsaid they were very familiar with the argument about the proper occasion, for it was an occasion which never came. He remembered that when they were discussing the Scotch Local Government Bill of 1888, the First Lord of the Treasury- told them that that was not the proper occasion.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: That was a much better occasion than this.
  MR. BRYCEsaid he would try to give, in two or three words, the reasons why they thought this was the proper occasion. They were by this Bill extinguishing School Boards in small areas, upon which poor people who could not pay travelling expenses could sit.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: But they can sit on the boards of management.
  MR. BRYCEcontended that by this Bill they were depriving the people who had hitherto had a chance of regulating the education of their own children of the opportunity which they had up to the present enjoyed. The right hon. Gentleman said they had the hoards of management. Did he remember the discussions which took place on Clause 8? He considered it essential that on these education committees, which were to have practically the bulk of the work, some opportunity should be given to the parents to bear the part in the work

  897
  which they had hitherto done under the School Board system. They had been told that by adopting tins Amendment proposed by the hon. Member for the Barnstaple Division they would take a step which would have consequences in the future. That was an argument they had often heard, but his answer to it was this. They were asked for the sake of a possibly distant object, a consequence which might not arise in our time, a consequence which would have to be determined by totally different arguments, to sacrifice an opportunity of making these bodies much more effective than they other wise would he by admitting people to work in which they were interested, and who were anxious, as well as competent, to discharge it.
  (3.47.) MR. H. J. WILSONsaid it was a fact that the Sheffield School Board and most other School Boards had habitually paid for conveyances for members when trim yelling around inspecting sites and schools. The same remark applied to cases where Sheffield magistrates visited public-houses in connection with licensing matters. The President of the Local Government Board was entirely wrong (and the Prime Minister was wrong in following him) in supposing that there were not lots of precedents all over the country for a proposal such as that now before the Committee.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid if they were going to divide they should not vote in the dark. His hon. and learned friend said that the County Council would have the right of picking and choosing. The Committee ought to know whether that was a proper construction of the words before voting. His opinion was that there would be no discussion in the County Council at all. He asked the Attorney General to state whether in his opinion that was the proper reading of the words.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEasked whether in the event of the rejection of these two Amendments there would be power under the scheme to provide for the payment of travelling expenses? Would the Government consider that they had the right under the
  898
  Bill to sanction payment of travelling expenses where the County Council desired it? The Prime Minister tried to conjure up the bogey of the rates. One experience was worth all the arguments of the Prime Minister on that point. They had power in Wales to pay the travelling expenses of the members of the governing body. He knew a county where the total travelling expenses, third class, amounted in a single year to less than one-fiftieth of a penny on the rates. It was misleading to talk to the Committee about the burden on the rates in a matter of this sort, when the Prime Minister was introducing a Bill which would involve a rate of 4½d. in Gloucestershire, 6d. in Liverpool, and 1s. in some districts, in order to keep up. sectarian schools.
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir ROBERT FINLAY,said he had been asked to state his opinion in regard to the construction to be put on the Amendment. He did think that the words were not very clear, but he would be inclined to say that the proper construction was that which the author of the Amendment had put on it, namely, that the County Council would have a discretion to pay all, or only some, of the travelling expenses, as they deemed fit. With regard to the other question, he was not sufficiently familiar with the provisions in Wales, to enable him to give an off-hand answer to the question the hon. Member had put to him, but he thought there would be no general power under the Act to introduce a provision into a scheme dealing with this matter. He would he glad to go into the question with the hon. Member, but he was not prepared offhand to give an opinion on a point of this kind, which involved special consideration.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: Does that mean that in the opinion of the Attorney General there will be no power to introduce into a scheme a provision for the payment of even third class travelling expenses in England?
  SIR ROBERT FINLAY: I do not think there will be.
  Question, "That the first word the stand part of the proposed Amendment,' put, and negatived.
  Amendment further amended, by inserting—
  "After the word 'including,' the word such,' and by inserting, after the word 'committee,' the words 'as the local education authority may think fit.—Mr. Lyttelton
  (3.53.) Question put, "That those words, as amended, be there inserted."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 130;Noes, 197. (Division Kist No. 503.

  AYES.

  Allan, Sir William (Gateshead)

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Rea, Russell

  Allen, CharlesP.(Glouc., Stroud

  Grant, Corrie

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie(Dumfries

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Harwood, George

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale

  Runciman, Walter

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir ArthurD.

  Samuel, Herbert L(Cleveland)

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Schwan, Charles E.

  Bell, Richard

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Shackleton, David James

  Bignold, Arthur

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Brigg, John

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Bummer, Sir John Tomlinson

  Jacoby, lames Alfred

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Jones, David Brynmor(Sw'nsea

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Burr, Thomas

  Kemp, George

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Kitson, Sir John

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Caldwell, James

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe

  Cameron, Robert

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Tennant, Harold John

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan,E.)

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Leng, Sir John

  Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings

  Cawley, Frederick

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Thomas, J A (Glamorgan Gower

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Lloyd-George, David

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W.R)

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Logan, John William

  Tomkinson, James

  Cremer, William Randal

  Lough, Thomas

  Toulmin, George

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Davies, M.Vaughan-(Cardigan

  M'Crae, George

  Wallace, Robert

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  M'Kentia, Reginald

  Walton, Joseph(Barnsley)

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Malcolm, Ian

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Wason, Engene

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Weir, James Gallo-way

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Mather, Sir william

  Welby, Lt. -Col.A. C. E(Taunt'n

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Edwards, Frank

  Moss, Samuel

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Elibank, Master of

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Whiteley, George (York, W.R.)

  Emmott, Alfred

  Newnes, Sir George

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Evans, Sir Franeis H (Maidstone

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfok, Mid.

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Palmer, George Wm.(Reading)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Ferguson, R. C. (Mnnro(Leith)

  Partington, Oswald

  Woodhouse, SirJT (Huddersfd

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn Herbert John

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Pickard, Benjamin

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Mr. Soares and Mr.

  Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon

  Price, Robert John

  Lyttelton.

  NOES.

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Bond, Edward

  Chapman, Edward

  Aird, Sir John

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Anson, Sir William Reynoll

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Arkwriglit, John Stanhope

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Coddington, Sir William

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Arrol, Sir William

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Campbell, Rt HnJ.A.(Glasgow)

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Carew, James Laurence

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Balcarres, Lord

  Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J.(Manch`r

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Dalrymple Sir Charles

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J.(Birm.

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Chamberlain, RtHn.J.A(Worc.

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fr'd Dixon

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson

  Doxford, Sir Wilham Theodore

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Elhot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Lockie, John

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Rutherford, John

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Fergusson, Rt Hn. SirJ (Manc'r

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol,S.

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Finch, George H.

  Lowe, Francis William

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Seely, Maj. J.E.B.(Isle of Wight

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Fison, Frederick William

  Lucas, ReginaldJ.(Portsmouth

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Macartney, Rt Hn W.G.Ellison

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E)

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Smith, HC(North'mb. Tyneside

  Flower, Ernest

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.)

  Forster, Henry William

  Maxwell, W H J(Dumfriesshire

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Foster, PhilipS.(Warwick,S.W

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset)

  Carfit, William

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

  Gibbs, Hon. Vicary(St. Albans)

  Milvain, Thomas

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir Joint M.

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Stock, James Henry

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Greene, Sir EW(B'rySEdm'nds

  Morgan, David J(Walth'mstow

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Thompson, Dr EC(Monagh'n, N

  Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Gretton, John

  Mount, William Arthur

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Murray, Rt Hn A Graham(Bute

  Tritton, Charles Ernest.

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Hamilton Rt Hn Lord(Midd'x

  Myers, William Henry

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Hardy, Laurence(Kent Ashf'rd

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Tully, Jasper

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Valentia, Viscount

  Heaton, John Henniker

  O' Doherty, William

  Vincent, Col. SirCEH (Sheffield

  Helder, Augustus

  Orr Ewong, Charles, Lindsay

  Walrond, RtHn. Sir William H.

  Hobhouse, Henry(Somerset, E.

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Hope, J. F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Hoult, Joseph

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Howard. John (kent, Faversh'm

  Percy, Earl

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

  Howard, John(Midd., Tottenham)

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Williams, Rt HnJ Powell(Birm

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Wtllox, Sir John Archibald

  Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.)

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R)

  Jebb, sir Richard Claverhouse

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H.(Yorks.)

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. (Bath

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Purvis, Robert

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh.

  Randles, John S.

  Wylie, Alexander

  Kimber, Henry

  Rankin, Sir James

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Knowles, Lees

  Pasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Lee, ArthurH(Hants., Fareham

  Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Staly bridge

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  MR. LOUIS SINCLAIR, in moving the next Amendment, said that he represented the largest division in tins country, and an ever-increasing one, and he ventured to say that this Bill had not been drafted to meet the case of his constituents, who would suffer much under its provisions. It was said that the ratepayers would profit more under the Imperial grants than before, but in his case nothing of the kind would occur. The district would be poorer and the Imperial grant would be less under the Bill unless a number of Amendments were made in this Clause. At the present time 97 per cent. of the children in the district were
  902
  educated in board schools, and only 3 per cent. in the voluntary schools. The result was that the district would have to provide an additional school rate of a farthing. In framing the Bill no consideration had been shown for extreme cases. He noticed that the education rate would be levied on the basis of the district rate instead of the poor rate.
  MR. WALTER LONG: Only in one case.
  MR. LOUIS SINCLAIRsaid that there was an Amendment lower down on the Paper which would remove the rate from the basis of assessment for the

  903
  poor rate to that of the district rate. The East India Docks, under the Public Health Act, would be assessed on £14,000 instead of on £27,000, which they now paid; and the Great Eastern Railway, instead of being assessed on £9,900, would be assessed on only £2,600. The result would he that the houses of only £10 rental would have to make up the deficiency. The result would be inefficiency, the schools would be starved, and many people would not pay their rates. He knew that his was an extreme case, where the population had increased from 8,000 to over 100,000, but in framing a Bill of this magnitude care should have been taken so that no anomaly would occur in the way of increased burdens. He appealed to his right hon. friend in charge of the Bill to so amend the Clause that in extreme cases, like that presented by his constituency, the ratepayers would not be put into a worse position than before.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 5, line 21, after the word Council,' to insert the words shall be paid under this Act out of a rate levied by the Council on the basis of the assessment for the poor rate.'"— (Mr. Louis Sinclair.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  MR. WALTER LONGsaid he did not quite follow his hon. friend in his reference to an especial hardship on a particular district. He admitted, however, that there was a flaw in the proposal in the Bill in regard to the incidence of the rate. That was not altogether the fault of those who were responsible for the Bill. It had probably escaped his hon. friend's attention that, under the Technical Instruction Act, the rate which could be levied was, in the case of urban sanitary districts, which wore the local authorities for the purpose, the only general rate which existed in them, viz., the sanitary rate, which was liable to deduction in regard to railways, canals, etc. It was thought at first that it was better to leave things as they were; but the Government realised later that it would be a grave injustice if, in the area of a Borough or a County Council the incidence of the rate was to be the poor rate subject only to ordinary deductions, while in sanitary districts it was to be the sanitary rate. His hon. friend said that the Amendment in the name of the Secretary to the Board of Education
  904
  would not altogether meet the case. On the contrary, that Amendment met the-case more completely and fully than did the Amendment of his hon. friend. The variation was not great, and he ventured to hope that his hon. friend and other hon. Members who had similar Amendments on the Paper, would be willing to withdraw then], and allow the Amendment of his hon. friend the Secretary to the Board of Education to be put from the Chair. The only real difference between the Amendments was one of detail, and not of principle. They all sought to effect the same result, namely, to make the. incidence of the rate for education the poor rate assessment and not the sanitary rate, which was liable to deductions. But there was a small difference. Under the Amendments of his hon. friends, the' incidence of the rate would not be the incidence which rested upon the-county rate basis. The effect of the Amendment of his hon. friend the Secretary to-the Board of Education would be this—in a County Council area the cost of education would be defrayed out of the general rate levied over the whole area having for its basis the county rate basis, and in the case of a borough the poor rate basis or the borough rate basis. Difficulties in connection with assessment did not arise in borough areas as they did in county areas. In the county areas they had to deal with inequalities between different unions; whereas there was not the same conflict in the case of a borough area except in very rare instances, though it did arise in most cases where there was more than one union in the area, but in a mitigated form. There it was met by the power possessed by the Borough Council to have its own assessment, if not satisfied with the union assessment. There remained only the-urban sanitary districts to be dealt with. In these districts there was no rate similar to the borough rate or the county rate; there was only the sanitary rate, which would not do. Therefore they proposed to take the ordinary poor rate assessment; the only detail worthy of mention being that in the rather limited number of cases where the sanitary district was divided into parishes, the assessment as between the parishes would be on the poor rate basis and not on the borough rate or county rate basis. He hoped the Committee would accept the Amendment

  905
  of his hon. friend the Secretary to the Board of Education as dealing more completely with the matter.
  MR. LOUIS SINCLAIRsaid that agricultural Land which was only assessed at half the poor rate Would not come under the Amendment of the Secretary to the Board of Education.
  MR. WALTER LONGsaid that that would not in any way affect his hon. friends Amendment.
  SIR FONTESCUE FLANNERYsaid he wished to express his very great satisfaction at the explanation given by his right hon. friend, and the promise he had made on behalf of the Government. The fact was that When the Clause was drafted a very serious and inexcusable mistake was made. Under the Clause as it stood, manufactories and householders would have to pay a very much larger proportion of tine rate than the owners of land, railway companies, docks and canals. Allusion had been made to Rumford, but many other constituencies were similarly situated, hl his own constituency, there were three railways covering a large acreage, and there were also canals, which would escape their fair proportion if the Clause remained as it was. They would only have to contribute 3d. in the £, whereas householders would have to contribute 1s. in the £Therefore, he regarded the Amendment of the Secretary to the Board of Education, which had been explained so clearly by his right hon. friend, as a measure of justice; and he hoped it would meet with the entire approval of the Committee.
  SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid he had not the least objection to the withdrawal of the Amendment, and the substitution of the Amendment of the Secretary to the Board of Education. He agreed with what had been said by the right hon. Gentleman in support of the Amendment. The doctrines on which the hon. Member based the Amendment before the Committee were applicable to various parts of the country, and were not confined to the case of Essex. He submitted that it would not be in order to follow the line of argument raised by the hon. Member opposite on the Government Amendment,
  906
  though he hoped they would have an opportunity of raising the question they wished to raise on (b) (e) and (d).
  MR. CHANNINGsaid he did not see much advantage in prolonging the present discussion. He merely wished to say on behalf of the urban district of Kettering and Many similar districts that the proposals of the Government were perfectly satisfactory to those authorities, and wished to thank the Government for the Amendment they had wisely placed on the Paper.
  MR. LOUIS SINCLAIRsaid in withdrawing his Amendment he wished to thank the Government for the Amendment they had put down. At the same time, he should say that an immense amount of ill-feeling and a sense of injustice had been created, because the Amendment had not been thought of before.
  MR. F. W. WILSONsaid the Government now proposed that the expenses of the Education Act should be paid out of the poor rate instead of the county fund or the borough rate. Did the Government, in making this change, propose to deal with the great inequalities of assessment to the poor rate? Some District Councils and Corporations assessed on one system, and some on another. In rural districts rent was taken as the basis of assessment in one union, and estimates of annual value in the other. He thought there ought to be uniformity in the system of assessment.
  LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICEsaid he doubted whether it would be possible within the scope of the present Bill to deal with the large and complicated question which had just been mentioned by his hon. friend. There was an announcement in the King's Speech that legislation on the subject was contemplated, but it was not introduced.
  MR. WALTER LONGsaid that that was quite true. One of the great difficulties of the local taxation question was valuation and assessment, and until they had dealt with valuation and assessment they could not approach the local taxation question with any degree of

  907
  satisfaction or hope of a final settlement. As the noble Lord, however, knew, time did not permit of the introduction of many measures, and that referred to was one of them.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  SIR JAMES WOODHOUSEsaid the object of his Amendment was to meet certain exceptional cases which had not been provided for in the Bill. It was well known that by Act of Parliament no borough rate could be levied unless the borough fund was insufficient. He, however, understood that the President of the Local Government Board was prepared to accept the Amendment, therefore he would say no more about it.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 5, line 24, after the word 'rate,' to insert the words or a separate rate to be made, assessed, and levied in like manner as the borough rate.'"—(Sir James Woodhouse.)
  Question proposed, "That those words he there inserted."
  Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
  "After the word 'or' to insert the words if no borough rate is levied.'"—(Mr. Fison.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."
  MR. WALTER LONGsaid the point raised undoubtedly required attention. There were cases where the borough fund had proved sufficient hitherto for all local purposes, yet where it might become exhausted unless sufficient provision were made. As the tendency of modern legislation was in the direction of consolidation, and not of separation, he would accept the Amendment as amended by his hon. friend, which would limit its application to those cases where a separate rate had not been issued up to the commencement of this Act.
  Amendment to the proposed Amendment agreed to.
  Amendment, as amended, agreed to.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 5, line 25, after the word district,' to insert the words other than a borough.'"—(Sir James Woodhouse.)
  Amendment agreed to.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid after the clear explanation given by his right hon. friend the President of the Board of Trade the Amendment he now rose to move would need very little explanation from him. The Amendment was an important one. Its object was to provide that the education expenses of an urban district should not be raised out of the district rate, but out of the poor rate, in order to avoid the exceptions to which the urban district rate was liable.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 5, lines 25 and 26, to leave out the words 'as expenses incurred for the general purposes of the Public Health Acts,' and insert the words 'in manner provided by Section 33 of the Elementary Education Act, 1876, as respects the expenses in that Section.'"—(Sir William Anson)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be le t out stand part of the Clause."
  MR. BRYCEdrew attention to the fact that in this case the right hon. Gentleman opposite hind adopted the objectionable practice of legislation by reference, which could, he submitted, in this case have easily been avoided. The lines of the Section of the Act of 1876 winch it was proposed to incorporate were only six or seven, and it would have been much more convenient to the bodies who would have to administer the Bill if he had incorporated those lines bodily rather than to refer them to a separate Act.
  SIR ROBERT FINLAYsaid that he was in general agreement with the observations made by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, but he submitted that this was a case where the course taken was a desirable one, as it thus made it clear that the expenses were to be raised in the same way as under the Act of 1876.
  MR. BRYCEthought the Attorney General's remarks had not answered the objection.
  MR. EMMOTTasked if there was any necessity for the words at the

  909
  end. He had no legal knowledge with regard to it, but was it not possible that, if those words were left in, they might be considered as relating only to the expenses referred to in that particular section.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSthought that this was essentially a case where legislation by reference ought not to have been resorted to. It would have been a very simple thing to have incorporated the words referred to in the new Act. The only justification for legislating by reference was the undesirability of overloading an Act with unnecessary words. That was not the case here.
  MR. WALTER LONGadmitted there was much in the contention of the hon. and learned Member who had just spoken, but at the same time pointed out that the Amendment had been considered cart fully by those responsible, who considered this was the most convenient form in which to move it. He had, however, taken notice of what had been said, and would consider whether it would not be advisable to alter the form at another stage of the Bill.
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. CHANNINGsaid the Amendment he now moved had been pressed upon him by urban districts whose councils were autonomous authorities for the purposes of Part III., and who also had power to raise a penny rate for education other than elementary under Section 3. Some of these districts had the strongest desire to carry out a bold policy of providing for secondary education, and were willing to exercise all their powers and make all possible sacrifices for this object. But it was urged on behalf of the ratepayers that where they had paid a local rate under Section the rating power of the County Council should be exercised in the district only to supplement and expand the secondary education within such a district itself, and that the district should not be called upon to contribute also to the general expenses of secondary education throughout the county.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 5, line 26, at end, to insert the words, '(a) The County Council shall not raise any
  910
  sum on account of their expenses under Part 11. of this Act within any urban district the council of which is an education authority for the purposes of part III of this Act, and which has levied a rate under Section 3 of this Act for the purposes of education other than elementary, save and so far as the proceeds of any such county rate may be applied for the supply or aid of education other than elementary within such urban district; and (b).'"—(Mr. Channing.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  MR. WALTER LONGpointed out that the Amendment, if accepted, would lead to an anomalous condition of things, because, while it would exempt Urban District Councils, the Borough Councils would be left untouched. The issue, however, was a very simple one. The principle of the Bill was that there should be concurrent powers in the councils of boroughs of 10,000 population and urban districts of 20,000 and the County Councils. But the intention of the Government had been that while those concurrent powers should be preserved, every inducement should be given to the County Councils, not only to exercise, but to exercise fully, their concurrent power, the aim being that the County Councils should be the main directing and controlling authority, while the local authority should have power, if they wished, to give special or extra aid to the development of education in their own area. Under these circumstances the Government could not accept an Amendment which would deprive County Councils of the means of doing that which it was hoped they would do.
  LORD EDMUNDFITZMAITRICEagreed that the Amendment would strike a heavy blow at the idea of making the County Council the local education authority. It was true that he supported an Amendment to give certain large powers to the smaller boroughs, but the idea of those who supported the proposal was that of not depriving the small places of the powers they possessed, and at the same time encouraging them to exercise them in a subordinate capacity. The present Amendment would go a great deal further, and practically place the small authorities in a position of much greater independence, and reduce the

  911
  County Councils to the position of subordinate authorities. He did not think that was a proper thing to do, and he hoped his hon. friend would not press the Amendment.
  MR. BRYNMOR JONESasked what would be the position of a borough like that of Neath, which, under Clause 3, had power to levy a rate of 1d. in the £ for the purposes of Part 11 of the Bill. Could the County Council of Glamorgan levy a rate of 2d. for similar purposes in the area of the borough of Neath, and the municipal corporation of Neath levy another rate of 1d?
  Mr. WALTER LONG: Yes.
  MR. BRYNMOR JONESsaid that in that case, if the borough of Neath raised a penny rate to develop the secondary schools within its area, they would have only a very moderate control over the action of the County Council in regard to the two penny rate. He thought that was hardly a sound position in which to leave these matters.
  MR. WALTER LONGpointed out that that was the law at present; it was not a change made by this Bill. The powers in regard to secondary education were concurrent in the County Council and the municipal authority.
  MR. BRYNMOR JONESsaid the case to which he referred was one in which there was already a rating power vested in the County Council for the purposes of secondary education quite apart from the Technical Instruction Act. In Neath they had a county school, and the borough contributed its share of the halfpenny rate under the Act of 1889. Was it a statesmanlike proposition to introduce this kind of divergence between the people who happened to live in Neath and those in, say, Briton Ferry, two places between which there was hardly any distinction to be drawn, but the latter of which did not come under Clause 3 of the Bill?
  Mr. WALTER LONGsaid that no doubt distinctions would arise as between localities which in themselves were very similar, but that question was fully
  912
  debated at an earlier stage of the proceedings on the Bill. These authorities and areas possessing certain powers were in existence in many cases, and in any reform it had always been found impossible to ignore them, no matter from which party in the House the reform proceeded. In this particular case he did not think Neath was in reality a sufferer. In one respect it was better off than the remainder of the district, because, although it might pay more for it, it had the power to spend money in its own interest and according to its own inclination.
  MR. CHANNINGrecognised that, after the reply of the right hon. Gentleman, it would be useless to press the Amendment. His intention, however, was not in any way to interfere with the method of control or the co-ordinating power of the County Council as regarded the general work of education, but simply to make an adjustment of the incidence of rating as between one district and another.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  The next Amendment, standing in the name of the hon. Member for the Elland Division of Yorkshire, was as follows:—
  "In Clause 13, page 5, line 26, at end, to insert '(a) the Council shall make an estimate of the amount of their expenses under this Act, and exemptions under The Agricultural Rates Act, The Tithe Rent-Charge (Rates) Act. 1899, and paragraph (b) of sub-Section one of Section two hundred and eleven of The Public Health Act, 1875, shall not apply to so much of any rate as is required to raise that amount.'"
  THE CHAPRMAN: Of the next Amendment only the first line and part of the second line are in order. The portion providing that certain exemptions should not apply is not in order.
  MR. TREVELYAN: May I ask why?
  THE CHAIRMAN: It is an Amendment of the Rating Act.
  MR. TREVELYAN: May I read Clause 1 of the Rating Act?
  THE CHAIRMAN: It is no use reading that. I have already given a

  913
  similar ruling once or twice in the course of these debates. On June 30th there were two Amendments to exactly the same effect, and I ruled them both out of order on the ground that they were Amendments, in the one case, to the Agricultural Rates Act, and in the other to the Tithe Rent-Charge Act.
  MR TREVELYANpointed out that the Agricultural Rates Act provided that "the occupier of agricultural land should be liable in the case of every rate to which this Act applies." As under the present Bill a new rate was being levied, he submitted that they had the power of saying whether the Act applied or not.
  THE CHAIRMAN: It is not a new rate, it is an increase of the existing rate. That is not in order. The next Amendment of the hon. Member is in order.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEthought the local authority ought to be called upon to give an estimate of their expenses. Unless some Amendment was inserted, it would be absolutely impossible to know how the Act was working. If hon. Members opposite had confidence in the Act, it was to their interests that they should know what the schools were costing. There was at present an annual return made to the Board of Education, and it was published consequently they could easily find out what the schools were costing. They had also a system of voluntary subscriptions, but once they got the two systems mixed up it would be impossible to distinguish, except by very minute examination between the two. Consequently the advocates of the system would cast the blame for any increase in the cost of education upon the other. What possible objection could the Government have to making a clear and distinct estimate of what the expenses really were? That was all they wanted. He begged to move the Amendment standing in the name of his hon. friend the Member for the Elland Division.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 5, line 26. at end, to insert the words '(a) the Council shall make an estimate of the amount of their expenses meter this Act.'"—(Mr. Lloyd-George.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  Lose EDMUND FITLMALURICEsaid he thought it was the legal duty of the Council to present an estimate of their expenditure.
  MR. WALTER LONGasked the Committee, in the absence of any definite assurance to the contrary, not to draw a distinction between the work of education and the other work of the county.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEasked would it be necessary in the accounts to distinguish between the provided and the non-provided schools.
  MR. WALTER LONG: I am afraid I can hardly answer a conundrum of that kind. I should imagine that the estimate would have to be a complete one, and as the expenditure would vary, I should think that any budget to be complete must distinguish between the two. I should have thought it would have been better to leave this to the general inter pretation of the law rather than introduce an Amendment here.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid it was essential that they should know how much money was provided by the Education Department for the two purposes, which were distinct, because the management of one set of schools was in one hand and the other set in another. It was essential that they should ask the Government to impose the duty of showing the expenditure required for the existing voluntary schools and un-provided schools and also for the provided schools, otherwise the country would be quite in the dark as to how much the voluntary system cost to carry out. It would be necessary to see how the bargain now described as equitable would work out when it came to be tested by the actual facts. There was another matter which he desired to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to in regard to the Amendment. They knew that under the present law the portion of the rate which was raised for School Board purposes was separately put upon the demand note. He wished to know whether the demand note in the future would distinguish as to how much

  915
  was required for education. He should like, it if possible, to distinguish between the two classes of schools.
  SIR JOHN DORINGTONsaid that at the beginning of April in each year the County Council had to present a budget. In his county this budget was set out in very great detail. They knew exactly the amount they were going to spend for roads managed by themselves and for roads managed for them; and in education it would be of the greatest possible interest to know how much they were going to spend on board schools and how much on voluntary schools. At the end of the year it was quite certain they had to produce, their accounts for public inspection and he could not imagine why they should do otherwise. This was in everybody's interest. He thought the Amendment was entirely unnecessary.
  MR. BRYNMOR JONESsaid he wished to know exactly if in the Local Government Act of 1888 there was any absolute obligation placed upon the Council to make an estimate of the amount of their expenses under the Act.
  MR. HENRY HOBHOUSE (Somerset-shire, E.): It is imposed upon the Finance Committee.
  MR. BRYNMOR JONESsaid he had looked through the Act, and he did not find that any proper statutory direction had been given by Parliament in the matter. After the Amendment of the hon. Member for Carnarvon he wished to add the words, "distinguishing the amount to be expended upon schools provided and schools not provided by the local education authority."
  Amendment proposed to the Amendment proposed—
  "In line 2, after the word 'Act,' to insert the words distinguishing, the amount to be expended upon schools prodded and schools not provided by the local education authority.'"—(Mr. Brynmor Jones.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in, the proposed Amendment."
  LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICEsaid that there was possibly a direction in the
  916
  Act which compelled the Council to prepare a budget. There were some Clauses which provided for special duties larger than those which existed under the Municipal Corporations Act upon the Finance Committee in all these matters. Therefore he did not think there was any doubt that under the Local Government Act there was a clear duty on the part of the County Council to prepare a budget and proper estimates. The County Council would, no doubt, pursue the same course in the future, but there could be no objection to the insertion of these words. They were all agreed that it was right and necessary that the expenditure of the provided and the non-provided schools should be carefully distinguished. Although he did not think it was necessary to insert the words, it might be that they would conduce to the clearness of the Clause, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would consider the matter.
  MR. HENRY HOBHOUSEsaid that the words were obviously unnecessary. Under Section 74 of the Act of 1888, the County Council were bound to prepare an estimate of the expenditure for the year. Unnecessary words in any Act of Parliament were objectionable, because they gave rise to confusion. As regarded the necessity of distinguishing between the expenses caused by provided and non-provided schools, he thought they would be drafting the Act in a loose and objectionable way if they drew special attention to that and left out other items of expenditure equally important.
  SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid the whole point of this discussion lay in the Amendment to the Amendment. It was moved on the grounds admirably stated by the hon. Member for Carnarvon. With regard to the suggestion of his noble friend the Member for the Cricklade Division, he maintained that the estimate was an entirely different from the audit. The question dealt with in the Amendment was not covered by the audit at all. He thought the Amendment as amended by his hon. friend was one on which the sense of the Committee ought to be taken.
  MR. BRIGGsaid it would be perfectly easy to separate the estimates for the two classes of schools. It would be satisfactory to know what additional expense was incurred by the new schools. He had in his possession estimates of what would be the expenditure on the voluntary schools in his district. He did not think there would be the slightest difficulty in carrying out what was proposed, and. therefore, tie Amendment to the Amendment should be inserted.
  MR. SAMUELEVANSsaid the object of the Amendment would not be fully attained unless the estimate was not only made but published. He did not know whether or not there would be a legal obligation to publish it, but, al any rate, he supposed that any menthe of the County Council would be able to insist that there should be publication It was very important that the people who paid the county rate should know how it was applied. He did not know whether on the demand note the two classes of schools could be distinguished, but if practicable, it was desirable that the amount for each should be specified.
  SIR JOHN BRUNNERsaid the Act of 1888, to which the hon. Member for East Somerset had referred, did not apply to this particular case. He hoped the cost of the two classes of schools would he estimated separately, and that duty should be provided for in the Bill.
  MR. WALTER LONGsaid an appeal had been made to the Government to accept the words of the Amendment because there might be some doubt about the Clause, or because they would make it clearer, or do no harm. He agreed with his hon. friend the Member for the Tewkesbury Division that, unless it could be clearly shown that the words in Section 74 of the 1888 Act were not sufficient for the purpose, it was undesirable and wrong to put in words simply because they might explain something to somebody which that somebody might not
  otherwise know. The 1888 Act was perfectly clear so far as estimates were concerned, and, therefore, the existing law was sufficient. The question raised by the hon. Member for North Mon-mouthshire as to the character of the demand note was a somewhat different one. It would not be possible to enforce conditions in regard to the character of the demand note by the Amendment under consideration. All the Committee had now to consider was whether, having various ditties to perform and large expenses to incur, the County Council should, in respect of one particular detail of expenditure, have laid on them a separate duty which was not laid upon them with regard to the whole of the rest of their financial duties.
  MR. LLOYD- GEORGEsaid it was true that by the Act of 1888 the County Council was bound to prepare an estimate of the expenditure for the year, but they were not bound to distinguish between provided and non-provided schools. In the preparation of their budget all they would have to say would be that the estimate, in respect of education for the county was say £5,000, and once they had dime that they would have exhausted their function under the Section, but they were not hound to say that £10,000 would he for voluntary schools and £5.000 for provided schools. They wanted to know what these two separate systems were to cost. He thought it rather significant that the Government were not prepared to accept an Amendment that would allow the ratepayers to get at the secret of what they were paying in respect of particular schools.
  (5.28.) Question put, "That those words, as amended, be there inserted."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 127: Noes, 239. (Division List No. 504.)

  AYES.

  Allan, Sir William(Gateshead)

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshine)

  Allen, Charles P(Gloue.,Stroud

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Barran, Roland Hirst

  Bell, Richard

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Brigg, John

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Kitson, Sir James

  Shackleton, David James

  Burt, Thomas

  Langley, Batty

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Caldwell, James

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Cameron, Robert

  Leng, Sir .John

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Levy, Maurice

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Cawley, Frederick

  Lloyd George, David

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Logan, John William

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Lough, Thomas

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Cremer, William Randal

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  M'Crae, George

  Tennant, Harold John

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Thomas, Sir A .(Glamorgan, E.)

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Mather, Sir William

  Thomas, J. A (Glamorgan, Gower

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W.R.)

  Dunn, Sir William

  Moss, Samuel

  Tomkinson, James

  Edwards, Frank

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Toulmin, George

  Elibank, Master of

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Wallace, Robert

  Emmott, Alfred

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Palmer, George Win. (Reading)

  Wason, Eugene

  Fenwick, Charles

  Partington, Oswald

  Weir, James Galloway

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Paulton, James Mellor

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  White, Luke (York, E. R

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Pickard, Benjamin

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn Herbert John

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Price, Robert John

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.

  Grant, Corrie

  Priestley, Arthur

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E.(Berwick)

  Rea, Russell

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T(Huddersf'd

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Robson, William Snowdon

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Mr. Brynmor Jones and

  Horniman Frederick John

  Runciman, Walter

  Mr. Trevelyan.

  NOES

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Carew, James Laurence

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Aird, Sir John

  Carlile, William Walter

  Doughty, George

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir, Edw. H.

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Arnold-Forster, 'Hugh O.

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lanes.)

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Arrol, Sir William

  Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J.(Birm.

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Balcarres, Lord

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn.J.A.(Wore.

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Chapman, Edward

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J.(Manc'r

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J. (Manch'r.

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W(Leeds

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Finch, George H.

  Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Fison, Frederick William

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Fitzroy, Hon. Ed ward Algernon

  Bignold, Arthur

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Bigwood, James

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Flower, Ernest

  Bond, Edward

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Forster, Henry William

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Foster, PhilipS.(Warwick, S.W

  Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex)

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Gardner, Ernest

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Garfit, William

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Gibbs, Hn. A.G.H.(Cityof Lond.

  Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans)

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'r H'mlets

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Butcher, John George

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cock field

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J A (Glasgow

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  920

  921

  Gray Ernest, (West, Ham)

  Macartney, Rt Hn. W.G Ellison

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Greene, Sir EW. (B'rySEdm'nds

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Rutherford, John

  Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury)

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Gretton, John

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Malcolm, Ian

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

  Hamilton, Rt Hn LordG(Midd'x

  Maxwell, WJH. (Dumfriesshire

  Sharpe, William Edward T

  Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'rd

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Milvain, Thomas

  Smith, H C(North'mb. Tyneside

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.)

  Helder, Augustus

  More Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur(Ormskirk

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Morgan, David (Walth'mstow

  Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset

  Hobhouse, Henry(Somerset, E.

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Morrison James Archibald

  Stock, James Henry

  Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Morton. Arthur H. Aylmer

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Horner, Frederick William

  Mount, William Arthur

  Stroyan, John

  Hoult, Joseph

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Holley

  Howard John,(Kent. Faversh'm

  Murray, Rt HnA. Graham(Bute

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

  Myers, William Henry

  Talbot, Rt Hn.J.G(Oxf'd Univ.

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Thompson, Dr. EC(Monagh'n,N

  Hutton, John (Yorks, N.R.)

  Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Jebb Sir Richard Claverhouse

  O'Doherty, William

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Kemp, George

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Kimber, Henry

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Valentia, Viscount,

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Peel, Hn Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Vincent, Col. Sir C.EH(Sheffield

  Knowles, Lees

  Percy, Earl

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Warde, Col. C. E.

  Lawrence, Sir. Joseph (Monm'th

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Welby, Lt. -Col. A.C.E(Taunton

  Lawrence, Wm, F. (Liverpool)

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Lecky, Rt. Hon. Wm. Edw. H.

  Purvis, Robert

  Whiteley, H.(Ashton und. Lyne

  Lee Arthur H (Hants, Fareham

  Randles, John S.

  Williams, Rt Hn J Powell (Birm.

  Legge, Col Hon. Heneage

  Rankin, sir James

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Wilson, A. Stanley(York, E.R.)

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Ratcliff R F.

  Wilson John (Glasgow)

  Lockie, John

  Rattigan, Sir William, Henry

  Wilson-Todd Wm. H. (Yorks)

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R.(Bath)

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Renshaw, Charles Binc

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry 'Wilson

  Long, Col Charles W.(Evesham

  Renwick George

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Long, Rt Hn. Walter(Bristol,S

  Ridley, Hon. M.W(Stalybridge

  Wylie Alexander

  Lowther, Rt. Hon James (Kent)

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Lucas, Reginald J (Portsmouth

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Sir Alexander Acland

  Lyttelton Hon. Alfred

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther

  Question put and agreed to.

  MR. TREVELYANsaid that the omission of sub-Section (a) of tins Clause, which he proposed to move, raised a very important point in rating. He thought that. the fact that the hon. Member for East Somerset had got an Amendment on the Paper which would partly effect what he proposed to do, was sufficient evidence of its importance. The sub-Section permitted the County Council to saddle different parts of the county with separate charges for technical and secondary education, but the effect of his proposal to omit the sub-Section would be that all the expenses of higher education in the county would fall on the county rate. Many hon. Members had a great deal in common with part of the
  922
  speech of the hon. Member for Stretford when that hon. Gentleman said that they could not have anything more unfair than putting a national service on a small locality. What they expected from this Bill was that the County Councils and the local authorities were to be actuated by a large and energetic policy in providing secondary education throughout the county. He thought that they ought to do everything they could to induce the County Councils to adopt not merely a sectional scheme of building schools and providing secondary education, but so to lay out the counties educationally as to have them available to everyone—that was to say,

  923
  to afford the same opportunity to everyone in the county to obtain the same quality of teaching. As things stood at present, secondary schools were scattered over the different counties under no system, as the result of private enterprise or the historical chance of the pious founder. What was wanted was a regular system by which secondary education of an advanced kind should be available for every child in all parts of the county. He was afraid that the Government proposal to allow the county authority to put the rate for secondary education, if they pleased, upon the special localities which would be served by the secondary schools, was likely to perpetuate a sectional and parochial way of dealing with secondary education in the different counties. Every poor district would naturally resist having a secondary school if the policy was adopted of making the locality pay for the secondary rate. What was likely to happen in many counties was something of this kind; supposing a large part of the county was agricultural, and the other part urban, in the urban districts there would be a keenness a bout technical and secondary education; whereas in the agricultural districts there would be no enthusiasm at all. It was clear that, if the latitude at present given in the Bill was retained, it would be extremely likely that the policy that the County Council would adopt would be to let the urban districts rate themselves for secondary education, leaving the agricultural districts without any secondary schools at all. He wished to ask whether that was the policy which the Committee had in its mind in connection with the Bill. He did not think it was. He thought the policy enunciated by the Government was the systematic provision of secondary schools throughout the country, and he was afraid that the proposal of the Government would be to induce counties to adopt a sectional system where there was little enthusiasm about secondary education, with the result that large parts of the country would be left without any secondary education at all. There was a practical difficulty of a rather serious kind which applied equally to the proposal of the Government and to the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member
  924
  for East Somerset. It was very easy to lay down what the boundaries of a district should be for the purposes of elementary education, as schools would have to be provided everywhere for all children, but in the case of secondary education, where there was no compulsion, the area from which any secondary-school would draw the children attending it would vary very much with its excellence. If at one period the master of the school was a bad master, it would be extremely likely that that school would only draw the children from its immediate neighbourhood, but if a better master were appointed the school would immediately begin to supply instruction to a much wider area. A very difficult practical problem would face any County Council that tried to put into operation any such Clause as was now proposed, from the very fact that it would not be able to limit the sphere of any particular school. Therefore, because it was a difficult proposal to work, and, above all, because it dictated the wrong policy to the County Councils, who ought to have a general policy for secondary education, and ought not to have the option of leaving any part of the county out of the scheme, he hoped. the sub-Section would be dropped.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 5, to leave out sub-Section (a)."— (Mr Trevelyan.)
  Question proposed, "That sub-Section (a) stand part of the Clause."
  MR. WALTER LONGsaid that the Government, in inserting the sub-Section, were animated by precisely the same reasons which had been given by the right hon. Gentleman as a justification for his Amendment. The hon. Gentleman said that the sub-Section would limit the power of the new local authorities in regard to secondary education and that it would retard their efforts in the right direction. He could not agree with the hon. Gentleman. There were a great many counties in Great Britain in which the population, conditions of life, and general circumstances varied enormously as between different parts of each county. The hon. Gentleman could not have had a very great experience of

  925
  County Council administration if he did not know that one of the greatest difficulties which County Councillors who favoured a progressive policy would have to meet would be the difficulty of those who would participate very slightly in the advantages of the new institutions, and who would be constantly urging that they ought not to be calledupon to pay for them. The hon. Gentleman appeared to think that the sub-Section imposed an absolute duty on the County Councils, whereas all it did was to give the County Councils, if they thought fit, in the interests of higher education, power to establish particular schools in particular areas, charging those areas for them. It would not prevent or interfere with the adoption of a general policy applicable to the whole county where that was thought desirable, and it did not prevent the adoption of a policy applicable to two-thirds of the county and another policy applicable to the remaining third. It should be remembered that, although a school was specially charged on the part of a county, there was nothing in the sub-Section to prevent what the hon. Gentleman desired, namely the right of an individual pupil to attend a particular school which he or his parents thought more suitable. He believed that the sub-Section was a most valuable extension of the County Councils; that it would strengthen and not weaken their hands, and enable them, in certain circumstances, where they thought it desirable, to rate a special area for a particular school; whereas, if they did not think it desirable the Act would enable them to adopt the other alternative. He thought that was a power which the County Council would find useful in certain eases, and the Government thought it desirable to leave to the County Council discretion as to which of the two alternatives they should adopt.
  SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid that the right him. Gentleman had confined himself strictly to looking at localisation as it was effected by sub-Section (a); but it ran through the whole Clause. The sub-Section raised the general principle as to whether they ought to look at the matter as a county matter or whether they ought to have different rates fir different parts of the county, each part of the county being charged in accordance with the benefits it formerly, but no longer, received.
  MR. WALTER LONGsaid there was a very wide distinction between sub-Section (a) and sub-Sections (c) and (d). Sub-Section (a) dealt with future administration, whereas the other sub-Sections dealt with the existing condition of things.
  SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid that the sub-Sections dealt partly with both. What he wished to point out was that sub-Section (a) was the first sub-Section which raised the question of treating different parts of a county differently. A great many hon. Members objected to the larger areas, and would have preferred smaller areas; but that was now past; and, looking at the Bill as it stood, many hon. Members thought that there ought to be a uniform charge over the whole county. If the sub-Section were to pass, he thought it would require some Amendment; and he would propose to put in words of limitation after the word "fit," because otherwise the sub-Section might be worked in such a way as to create great injustice without anything being known about it. They had no fixed principle up to the present time in regard to the areas for either elementary or secondary education. They varied size in an almost incredible manner without any reason. It was a mere accident under the Act of 1870 that the areas were enormous in some places and quite small in others. In due present Bill, he thought they ought to look at the general interests they of the county as a whole, and treat the charge as a county charge; and with that view strike out sub-Sections (a) (c) and (d) which were inconsistent with that principle.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid that the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade stated that the Government put down the Clause with the same object his hon. friend had, namely, to encourage secondary education. But be was afraid that there was a great deal of truth in what the right hon. Gentleman said—that a great many County Councils would be by no means anxious to carry out the Act in its entirety.
  MR. WALTER LONGsaid he did not state that.
  SYDNEY BUXTONsaid he understood that the argument of the right hon. Gentleman was that some of the County Councils would be by no means anxious to carry out the Act.
  MR. WALTER LONGsaid that what he stated was that many County Councillors anxious to adopt a progressive policy would find a great difficulty in connection with districts which would derive no benefit from that policy, and would object to pay for it. In such cases, the County Council would be able to localise the expenditure, and the hon. Gentleman knew that that was frequently done.
  MR. SYDNEYYRUXTONsaid that if the proposal were carried out, the consent of the locality would be required for the extra rate. What he feared from the proposal, if carried, was that it would lay down the principle, which would be acted upon by all County Councils, that there was to be an extra charge thrown on the locality. It was because he had this fear that he should rote for the Amendment. If these words were left in, there would be not only the objection of a particular County Council to the adoption of the first part of the Act, but there would be the additional opposition of a particular locality owing to this charge being thrown upon them.
  MR. HENRY HOBHOUSEsaid he agreed, to a large extent, with what had fallen from the hon. Member for Poplar. He should be sorry to see anything done in the direction of encouraging County Councils to work the secondary part of this Act in a sectional manner. But this sub-Section was really a re-enactment of the existing law relating to technical instruction. The power had not been extensively used, but it had been used when rural distrits had come to the County Council and offered to contribute towards a technical school if the County Council would erect it in their district. He thought the hon. Member for Elland should not persist in his Amendment to strike out the sub-Clause altogether. It was most important that the area of higher education should be kept as wide and large as possible,
  928
  and before the sub-Section was finally passed he should be glad to see some words inserted with that object.
  MR. EMMOTTsaid the real case against this sub-Section was that put forward by the right hon. Baronet—that the areas chosen by this Bill were by no means the best that might have been chosen for the purposes of education. Some were too large and some were too small. The effect of the words in the Bill was to make a strong and distinct suggestion to the local education authority that they should differentiate in regard to the expenses of their secondary schools. In the Welsh Act, as to the working of which a good deal had been said, there was no provision of this kind, nor was any differentiation made in any particular. It seemed to him quite impossible to decide on what parishes the expenses should be charged, because, when a new school was built, the scholars attending it would come from various districts. Oldham, for instance, drew the scholars for its technical school from four counties, and how in a case of that hind was it possible to say from where the scholars would come, and what would be the expense to be charged? In his opinion the tendency of this sub-Clause would be to encourage local squabbles, and infinitely less harm would be done by leaving, it out altogether. He should therefore support the Amendment.
  SIR FRANCIS POWELLsaid he was strongly in favour of the Clause, which was a facilitating Clause of the greatest value. When they came to deal with such a condition of things as they found in Yorkshire, where on the one hand there was a great manufacturing district in the South and on the other there was one of our most valuable agricultural districts in the North, he did not think justice would be done to the latter unless something was done upon the lines of this sub-Section. There was the greatest difficulty at the present time in obtaining any outlay of money in remote parts where such an outlay was urgently required, and he felt sure that a provision of this kind would be of the greatest service in such an instance as he had given.
  MR. BARRANsaid he supported this Amendment. It seemed to him the first part of the Bill in which they came into direct contact with the question of the foreign competition which they had to meet in regard to education. It seemed to him that already in the Bill they had taken too narrow a view of 'secondary education. He would be glad if they were to treat it more on a national ground, and if a larger proportion of the expense for our secondary education were to be defrayed by. the nation, as was the case in many of the competing countries. He thought it would be very unfortunate if, instead of making it more a national question, they brought it down to be less than a county question. In Yorkshire, if they were to have effective secondary schools hey must have them in the great centres, and it would be practically impossible to locate the cost of them on different districts. The scholars would not come only from one district, and they would not return from the school only to one district. It would be a great waste of money and of energy if secondary schools were established in small centres for narrow requirements. That would necessitate an unnecessary and wasteful number of schools. The difficulty of getting these schools provided would be aggravated if there was a fear that some particular district was going to be rated for a school from which it would not receive the whole benefit. It was to the advantage of the county, and also to the advantage of the country, that they should try to draw the scholars for these secondary schools from the whole of the elementary schools of the county, and that the effect should be felt by their distributing themselves over the whole county. It was always a difficulty in our great cities to get rid of the feeling of jealousy between ward and ward; and the same difficulty would be experienced in greater force in the counties if they had to face opposition not only from one district but many districts. By compelling the whole county to take a broad view of the matter, and to concentrate their schools in the most convenient localities, irrespective of the requirements and wishes of particular districts, they would best help in meeting that competition in secondary education
  930
  which they in Yorkshire felt so strongly —the competition of other countries which had more of a national, and less of a local system of education than existed in England.
  SIR ROBERT FINLAY,after congratulating the hon. Member on his maiden speech, pointed out that this was a purely permissive provision, to be used only in exceptional circumstances. In normal conditions, secondary education would be a county charge; but there might be special cases where without this power of differentiation the County Council would be prevented from supplying the special want of a particular locality. In some cases, a particular part of a county had a special want. Without such a power as was here proposed, the County Council might very well hesitate to provide for that special want, because it would involve throwing upon the rest of the county an expenditure by which it did not in any way benefit. This power, however, would prevent the infliction of any such injustice.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEadmitted that in some cases it might be desirable there should be a power of differentiation, but he thought it ought to be confined to capital expenditure. Under the Welsh Intermediate Education Act, a common rate was levied over the whole county for the maintenance of the schools. In that there was no power of discrimination. but there was a certain amount of discrimination allowed in regard to, capital expenditure. Where a school had to be built the County Council called upon the locality to contribute something like one half of the expenditure. A secondary or technical school added to the status and position of the particular town, and even improved the value of property therein, and upon the principle of betterment the town ought to contribute a larger share of the capital expenditure than was placed on the county at large. The experience in Wales was that the scholars. were not drawn even proportionately from the town in which the school was situated. Every inducement ought to be given to have a certain number of good schools in a district rather than a multiplication

  931
  of small and bad ones, and the power of placing part of the capital expenditure on the town would work in that direction. Every county in Wales provided travelling scholarships, and it would be very unfair to cast upon the towns any portion of the maintenance, because, so far from getting any advantage, the burden of the cost of the travelling scholarships fell on each district equally, and there was a levelling up in those cases. If this power of levying special contributions was limited to capital expenditure, he thought it would meet the views of the majority of the Committee.
  SIR JAMES FERGUSSONsaid that in some counties such a power as was given under this sub-Section would be altogether unnecessary, but there were other counties in which it would be eminently useful. In his own county there were strictly defined districts, each containing a large town, and in that town there was provided an excellent secondary school, which was resorted to by the children of the parishes in that particular division. Grants were made by the County Council to the districts according to their requirements. There was a clear advantage in the possession of such a power, and he should vote for it.
  LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICEhoped the Government would see their way to accept the Amendment. He desired to associate himself with the Attorney General in congratulating the hon. Member for North Leeds on his maiden speech, and to express the hope, winch he was sure was shared by all the Committee, that it was but the first of many admirable contributions to the debates of the House. As to the question before the Committee, he was not able to agree to some of the arguments which had been advanced. He knew from actual experience the excellent results which had been achieved in a backward county through the existence of this power of differentiation. After all, this power was only the continuation of one that already existed. The hon. Member for North Wiltshire had recently stated that he was in the proud position of representing the only
  932
  Parliamentary Division in England which was rated right through for the purposes of technical and secondary education. That had been done under the powers of the Technical Instruction Act. By an. arrangement between the Wiltshire County Council and al the Urban and Rural District Councils, a county rate was levied with the consent of all concerned, and as a result they had succeeded in building a set of very good secondary and technical schools, covering the whole of the district. Without this power those schools would not have been in existence. They had not, however, levied the rate for ordinary annual maintenance, but to cover expenditure on buildings, and expensive apparatus for physical and chemical laboratories, and matters of that sort. That being so, he hoped the Committee would succeed in coming to an agreement on the point, and that the Government would agree to an Amendment limiting this provision to capital expenditure. It would be a very great mistake to enable a differential rate to be levied for that purpose. He might remind the Committee that under the Act of 1891, in regard to main roads it was agreed to distribute expenditure in certain proportions amongst all the Councils concerned when it was necessary to undertake any extensive work.
  MR. HERBERT LEWISsaid this was not in any sense a Party question, and the line laid down by his noble friend who had just spoken and the right hon. Member for East Somerset was one which the Committee would be wise in adopting. It had been assumed that differentiation could only take place by means of rating, but it was possible to give considerable compensation to the rural districts by giving, as was done in a large number of cases, bursaries and scholarships, and paying the cost of the travelling of the scholars to the towns where the schools existed. The system of giving help by way of capital expenditure to the towns which worked the school had proved an admirable one, but it would only increase the complexity of county accounts if the principle put forward by the Government were adopted in this case.
  SIR JOHN DORINGTONsaid he did not see why County Councils should be deprived of the liberty which he thought

  933
  might sometimes be usefully exercised. Generally, he thought, the special rate should be limited to capital expenditure, but there might be circumstances in which it might be very desirable that the county, as a whole, should not be so charged. They might leave that to the County Councils in their discretion. He strongly advocated the greatest possible liberty in regard to this matter. He knew a case in which, if they had had the power under the Technical Education Act to raise a special rate, they would have founded a very desirable school to the great satisfaction of the locality. He said "Why did you not levy your own rate?" and they replied "We dare not do it, but you can." He said "Yes, you ask me to levy a rate on the whole county for your benefit. If I could levy a special rate for your district, I should be willing to do so." They were afraid of their own ratepayers in their own special district, and suggested that if he had power he should levy a special rate for them. Whether in that case maintenance would he provided as well would be a matter of consideration.
  TREVELYTANasked whether the Government would assent to the insertion of words limiting the power of differentiation to capital expenditure.
  MR. WALTER LONG: No.
  MR. WHARTONsaid he wished to suggest what might possibly be the result of this proposal. Suppose they had a very excellent school with good appliances, and the principal object was to encourage the study of engineering, and this school involved a large expenditure of capital. If the maintenance of that school was to be distributed over the whole county, would it not be rather hard that a school instituted for the benefit of one corner of the county should be paid for by the whole county The result of this proposal would be that many very excellent schools would not be maintained. In the county of Northumberland four-fifths of the county was devoted to agriculture, and the other one-fifth constituted a very wealthy miming district. Was it suggested that the other four-fifths of the county of Northumberland should be mulcted to keep up an excellent technical school for the benefit of the rich mining centre which existed in the other one-fifth of the county? He hoped the Committee would trust the County Councils in this matter.
  MR. BRYCEsaid the answer to the argument of the right hon. Gentleman opposite was that these schools were for the benefit of the whole county, and not simply for the mining part. The students would resort to those schools from all parts of the county. If the right hon. Gentleman would only read the Report of the Commission on Secondary Education he would see that one of the things which they considered was most needed in the English counties was the establishment of central schools for the whole county, and if such schools were properly organised and placed, they would be very valuable indeed to every part of the county. It was clear that, as the county as a whole would derive the benefit, the county ought to pay. He thought the Amendment of his hon. friend the Member for East Somerset rested upon a sound foundation.
  MR. RUNCIMANsaid that in Northumberland the agricultural class were the very people who would be most likely to use the schools founded by the County Council. Furthermore, the distinction between the poor four-fifths and the rich one-fifth was really a good instance of the way inn which the wealthy portions of the county would be able to help the poor portion. There was very little reason to suppose that in the wealthy portion of the county the schools would be devoted to mining only, for no doubt many other subjects would be taught. The boys and girls who used the technical and secondary schools would be drawn from all over the counties, and it was impossible to cut up the counties of England into separate industries as would be necessary under this Clause. His hon. friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs said he thought the reason why they ought to suppress their opinions upon this question was that the majority of the Committee were against them.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: No, no; I never said that.
  MR. RUNCIMANsaid that all the Commissions which had sat upon this question had urged that education was a national and not a parochial interest, and he heartily endorsed the speech made by his hon. friend the Member for North Leeds. He hoped the Government would see their way to accept the modifications

  935
  suggested by the right hon. Member for East Somerset and limit this proposal to capital expenditure only.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE,in moving the next Amendment, said the danger of sub-Section (a) as it stood was that considerable injustice might be done under it without the knowledge of the locality. He thought what was being done should be in the knowledge of the locality.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 5, line 27, after the word 'fit,' to insert the words 'subject to notice to the minor local antherity."—(Sir. Charles Dilke.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  MR. WALTER LONGsaid the words proposed by the right hon. Baronet might have a more extended meaning than appeared on the face of them. He would consider between now and the Report Stage whether the words should be introduced.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. BRYCEsaid he desired to move the Amendment which stood on the Paper in the name of the right hon. Member for East Somersetshire, who did not intended to propose it himself. Many hon. Members thought when they saw it on the Paper that it was an excellent Amendment. It was to insert in page 5, line 29, after "elementary," the words "and in respect of capital expenditure." He thought it could be defended very clearly on the grounds indicated in the debate on the previous Amendment. There was a fast line between capital expenditure and maintenance expenditure. Where capital expenditure was for the erection of a
  school for the service of the place selected the charge should be borne by that place, but where a school was erected by the county authority to serve all parts of the county he thought the charge should be borne by the county as a whole.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 5, line 29, after the word 'elementary,' to insert the words 'and in respect of capital expenditure.'"—(Mr. Bryce.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  MR. WALTER LONGsaid the objection the Government took to this Amendment was exactly the same as that which they took to the previous Amendment. They did not compel the County Council to exercise power in this direction. The sub-Section was not mandatory, but gave discretionary power to the County Council which they could exercise if they believed it would be in the interest of the education of the county. In the cases referred to by the right hon. Gentleman the. Member for South Aberdeen, where schools were provided for the benefit of the whole county, the County Council would undoubtedly, under the powers they had in the Act, he able to rate the whole area, but there might be cases in which schools of a special character were required in a particular part of the county for the advantage of the local industries, and if in such cases the whole area were rated either in respect of capital or maintenance expenditure there would be opposition raised to the scheme. The experience of his right hon. friend the Member for the Tewkesbury Division, who was Chairman of the Gloucestershire County Council, testified to the truth of what he was now saying. The Government could not assent to the Amendment.
  (6.53.) Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 122; Noes, 223. (Division List No. 505).

  AYES.

  Allan, Sir William (Gateshead

  Bell, Richard

  Caldwell, James

  Allen, Charles P.(Glouc., Stroud

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Cameron, Robert

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Brigg, John

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Cawley, Frederick

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Burt, Thomas

  Cremer, William Randal

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Levy, Maurice

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Davies.M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Dewar. John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Lloyd-George. David

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Dilke Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Logan, John William

  Soames Althur Wellesley

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  M'Crae, George

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Duncan J. Hastings

  M'Kenna Reginald

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Dunn, Sir William

  Mapping Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Edwards. Frank

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe

  Elibank. Master of

  Mather, Sir William

  Tennant, Harold John

  Evans. SirFrancisH (Maidstone

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Moss, Samuel

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

  Fenwick. Charles

  Newnes, Sir George

  Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Norman, Henry

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W,R.)

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Tomkinson, James

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Palmer, George Wm. (Reading

  Toulmin, George

  Grant, Corrie

  Partington, Oswald

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Grey. Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Philipps John Wynford

  Wason, Eugene

  Hayne Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Pickard, Benjamin

  Weir, James Galloway

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Priestley, Arthur.

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Rea, Russell

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries

  Whiteley, George (York ,W. R.)

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Rickett J Compton

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Humphreys-Owen. Arthur C.

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Hutton Alfred E. (Morley)

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

  Jones, David Brynmor (Sw'nsea

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Kitson. Sir James

  Runciman, Walter

  Woodhouse, Sir J T.(Huddersf'd

  Langley, Batty

  Samuel Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Shackleton, David James

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Leigh. Sir Joseph

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Mr. Herbert Gladstoneand

  Leng, Sir John

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Mr. William M'Arthur.

  NOES.

  Agnew. Sir Andrew Noel

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J.(Birm.

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Aird, Sir John

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn J A.(Worc.

  Forster, Henry William

  Anson. Sir William Reynell

  Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton

  Foster, Philip S.(Warwick, S.W

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Chapman, Edward

  Garfit, William

  Arnold Forster, Hugh O.

  Charrington, Spencer

  Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H.(City of Lond.

  Arrol, Sir William

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Coghill. Douglas Harry

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Balcarres, Lord

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Gouloing, Edward Alfred

  Baldwin. Alfred

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Gretton, John

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A.J. (Manch'r)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Groves, James Grimble

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

  Crimps, Charles Alfred

  Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'rd

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Bhownaggree, Sir M.M.

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Bignold, Arthur

  Davies, Sir Horatio D(Chatham

  Helder, Augustus

  Bigwood. James

  Dickinson. Robert Edmond

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Bond, Edward

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Bousfield, William Robert,

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Hope, J.F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. SirJohnE.

  Hoult, Joseph

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Doughty, George

  Howard, John (Kent, Fav'rsh'm

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Egerton, Hon. A de Tatton

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Faber, Edmund (Hants, W)

  Hutton. John (Yorks, N.R.)

  Butcher. John George

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J.A.(Glasgow

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Carew, James Laurence

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn, Sir J.(Manc'r

  Kemp, George

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Finch, George H.

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Kimber, Henry

  Cavendish, V.C.W (Derbyshire

  Fisher William Hayes

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Fison, Frederick William

  Knowles, Lees

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Lambton. Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  938

  939

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Lecky, Rt. Hn. William Edw. H

  O'Doherty, William

  Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

  Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareham

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Stock, James Henry

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Percy, Earl

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G(Oxf' Univ.

  Lockie, John

  Platt-Higgins Frederick

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Loiter, General Walter Erskine

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Thompson ,Dr EC (Monagh'n, N

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S.

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Lowe, Francis William

  Purvis, Robert

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Pym C. Guy

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Lowther, Rt. Hn. James (Kent)

  Handles, John S.

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Rankin, Sir James

  Valentia, Viscount

  Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Vincent, Col. Sir C.E.H(Sheffi'ld

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Walrond, Rt Hn. Sir William H.

  Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Ellison

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Welby, Lt. -Col. A. C.E (Taunt'n

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Renwick, George

  Whiteley, H (Ashton-und-Lyne

  Majendle, James A. H

  Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge

  Williams, Rt Hn J Powell-(Birm

  Malcolm, Ian

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Maxwell, W. J.H.(Dumfriessh.

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)

  Meysey-Thompson. Sir H. M.

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.

  Milvain, Thomas

  Round, Ht. Hon. James

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire

  Rutherford, John

  Worley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Morgan, David J (Walthamst'w

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Wylie, Alexander

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Mount, William Arthur

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B.(lsle of Wight

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Murray, Rt. Hn A .Graham (Bute

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Myers, William Henry

  Smith, H C (North'mb Tyneside

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.)

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid he wished to move the omission of sub-Sections (c) and (d). He believed that some of his friends attached great importance to the excision of sub-Section (e), particularly on the ground that, in their opinion, it promoted the policy of denominational schools as against provided schools. He knew that Nonconformists entertained that feeling very strongly. His own ground for the excision of sub-Sections (c) and (d) was that which had been held against sub-Section (a). He objected very strongly to the localisation of rating parish by parish the whole control had been given to the county authority. Under the scheme of the Clause they might have a rate of I s. 4d in some parishes against 4d. in other parishes. Special provision was made by the House four years ago for the poorest or necessitous school districts, and that provision would be affected by this Clause in a curious way. The Act making the grants to the necessitous school districts would be virtually repealed by the Clause as proposed, and the result would
  940
  be to leave a load of debt on these educational localities in the future. He maintained that there was no ground why these parishes should be punished for what was no fault of their own. Exceptionally hard eases would also arise under these sub-Sections. For instance, where two parishes had been linked together by the Board of Education for the purpose of forming a sufficiently large area for educational rating purposes, one of these parishes might be laid under a special charge while it received no benefit from it whatever. That was entirely contrary to the principle of the Bill; and the only war to get rid of this unequal treatment was by snaking a charge over the whole county instead of on parish by parish. Time operation of sills-Sections (c) and (d) would, in many parishes be regarded as an injustice, and would add to the unpopularity of the Bill.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 5, line 35, to leave out the words from the word part,' to the end of line 44.' —(Sir Charles Dilke.)
  Question proposed, "That the words and the County Council' stand part of the Clause."
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid it was evident that the Government could not accept so very revolutionary a change as that proposed by the right hon. Gentleman. What he wished was to throw upon the county at large all the cost now borne by special localities in respect to their board schools or in respect to schools which private liberality had given to the community. He could not believe that that would be a tolerable thing for a moment. The right hon. Gentleman argued that cases of injustice would happen in certain rural parishes. That might be, and on the face of it it might seem not very equitable, but that was not a system which would be encouraged by this Bill. On the contrary, the Bill provided that in the future the County Council Was only to levy a special rate upon the district served by the school, and he thought that the particular cases of hardship to which the right hon. Gentleman referred should in no way prejudice the Committee against keeping these sub-Sections. The right hon. Gentleman had argued that the necessity of charging the major part of the cost upon the locality would prove a great discouragement to the locality in building schools; but if the sub-Section had any effect at all he thought it would have an effect precisely the other way. What he wished to say was that at the present time they could not really defend in the House the equity of distributing over the whole county, not only the maintenance charge, but the capital expenditure to winch some districts were liable and others were not liable. With regard to School Board areas, at all events they would he benefited by the Bill. Their burdens were being lightened, and he thought that ought not to be accompanied by an immense imposition upon districts of the county which at present had no education rate to bear at all. He hoped the Amendment would not be pressed.
  MR. HUMPHREYS-OWENopposed the retention of this sub-Section on grounds not precisely similar. to those advanced by the right hon. Baronet. He opposed it for two reasons. In the first place he was convinced that the education of the country would be
  942
  better forwarded by schools provided by the local authority than by denominational schools. In the second place, and this argument was equally strong, by imposing the cost of new schools on the parish itself, they directly discouraged the improvement of the educational equipment of the comity. The great reason always put forward for establishing a voluntary school was that it would save a parochial rate, and if new buildings or efficient buildings were required in a particular district which the County Councils would be compelled to charge upon the rates, there would always be the greatest opposition to them.
  MR. ALFRED HUTTONsaid this was a sub-Section which could not be allowed to pass without further protest. It had to be read in conjunction with Clauses 9 and 10, which, according to the First Lord of the Treasury, had been put into the Bill to remove the Nonconformist grievance. No authority was likely to put Clauses 9 and 10 into force except under the most extraordinary conditions. It was obvious that the County Council would hestitate long before they decided to erect a new school in a parish, the whole burden of the cost of which was to be put upon the parish. Certain persons in the parish would at once take advantage of the appeal to the Education Department and ask them to consider the matter, and those in favour of opening a denominational school as a day school would receive the support of the Board. He further pointed out that by reducing the period for the repayment of loans the Bill made it more difficult for the County Council to impose on parishes the cost involved in the erection' of new schools. He should support the Amendment.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSthought the sub-Section of such importance that it deserved far more consideration than it had received. If that consideration was given to it, the Committee would see how deeply this Clause cut into the very foundations of the system now being set up. A good deal had been heard as to whether it would not be better to leave this matter to the discretion of the County Councils, but now it was proposed to compel the County Councils to charge all the expense incurred by

  943
  them both in providing new schools and in extending old schools to the particular parish. It was hardly necessary to argue in favour of the relief of small and needy-parishes at the expense of the important commercial centres of the county. He failed to understand the distinction drawn by the Leader of the House between the equity of distributing the cost of maintenance over the whole county and that of distributing the capital expenditure over the whole county. In his opinion it would be far more equitable to put the maintenance on the particular parish rather than the capital charge. The practical effect on the education of a particular parish if this sub-section was allowed to pass would be to raise the non-ratepaying people of the parish up in arms, and they would naturally say "We will put up with the schools we have rather than bear this charge."
  It being half-past seven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again tins evening.

EVENING SITTING.

  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Considered in Committee,
  (In the Committee).
  [Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair].
  Clause 13:—
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 5, line 35, to leave out the words from the word 'Part,' to the end of line 44." —(Sir Charles Dilke)
  Question again proposed—
  "That the words 'and the County Council stand part of the Clause."
  MR.SAMUEL EVANSin resuming said the original intention of the Government was to put the whole expenditure on
  the parishes, but, becoming frightened, they had introduced certain limitations. He objected to the Amendment in the interests of education, for he believed the Government were putting a premium on inefficient education and on denominational schools because they were inviting the small parishes to object to the provision of new schools and the improvement of old schools. The result would be that there would be a great display of energy on the part of those who were in favour of a diminution in the rates of the locality, to prevent the County Councils substituting efficient for inefficient schools.
  MR. BOUSFIELDsaid no one would contend that the scheme of the sub-Section was perfect, and any scheme of this nature must always be open to criticism. He thought that the poorer parishes would suffer under this provision, and he certainly could not see why the poverty of a parish should not be taken into consideration by the Council. It was suggested that the sub-Clause would put a premium on denominational schools. This, in fact, seemed to be a Bill in which religion was cropping up from every quarter. If it were the object of the Clause to put that premium on denominational schools, he for one would not object. No one would suspect him of being a believer in the special doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church, but he would rather see children educated in a Roman Catholic, Wesleyan, or Church school than in a board school. He had more regard to the effect and advantage of religious impressions made by those who had earnest convictions than he had for a religion founded on secular teaching. Therefore, he preferred denominational schools. If the Clause gave a preference to denominational schools, it certainly treated them all with equal fairness.
  (9.13) Question put—
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 155; Noes, 72. (Division List No. 506.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Bignold, Arthur

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Bigwood, James

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Balfour, Rt.Hon.A.J.(Manch'r

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds

  Bond, Edward

  Arrol, Sir William

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Randles, John S.

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Hoare. Sir Samuel

  Rankin, Sir James

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Hogg. Lindsay

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Carlile, William Walter

  Hope. J. F. (Sheffield. Brightside

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Hoult, Joseph

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lanes.)

  Howard, John (Kent, Fav'rsh'm

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Cavendish, V.C. W. (Derbyshire

  Hudson. George Bickersteth

  Renwick, George

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Hutton. John (Yorks, N. R.)

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Cecil. Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn J.A.(Worc

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon Sir John H.

  Robertson. Herbert (Hackney)

  Chapman, Edward

  Kennedy Patrick James

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Charrington, Spencer

  Kenyon, Hon, Geo. T.(Denbigh)

  Round, Rt, Hon. James

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Keswick, William

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Cox. Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Kimber, Henry

  Rutherford, John

  Crossley. Sir Savile

  king, Sir Henry Seymour

  Sackville, Col. S.G. Stopford-

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm

  Sadler. Col Samuel Alexander

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Low, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Skewes-Cox. Thomas

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Llewellyn. Evan Henry

  Smith Abel H. (Hertford East

  Dorington, Rt Hon. Sir John E.

  Lockie, John

  Smith, H C (North'mb, Tyneside

  Doughty, George

  Loder Gerald Walter Erskine

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Long, Col Charles W.(Evesham

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Long, Rt, Hn. Walter (Bristol, S

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Lowe. Francis William

  Stock, James Henry

  Fellowes, Hon, Ailwyn Edward

  Long, Rt, Hn Walter (Bristol,S

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Lowe, Francis William

  Stock, James Henry

  Fellowes, Hon, AilwynEdward

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J(Manc'r

  Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth

  Stroyan, John

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Finch, George H.

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Thomson, Dr EC (Monagh'n,N

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Maxwell. W.J H (Dumfriesshire

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Flannery. Sir Fortescue

  Milvain, Thomas

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Forster, Henry William

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Tully, Jasper

  Forster, Philip S.(Warwick. S. W

  More, Robt. Jasper(Shropshire

  Valentia, Viscount

  Gibbs,Hon A.G.H.(City of Lond.

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Walrond, Rt Hn. Sir William H.

  Gibbs, Hon, Vicary(St. Albans)

  Morrison. James Archibald

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Godson, Sir Angustus Frederick

  Murray, Rt Hn. A Graham (Bute

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Wilson, Jehn (Glasgow)

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Nolan, Col.John P. (Calway,N.

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Groves, James Grimble

  Orr-Ewing. Charles Lindsay

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R.(Bath

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Parker. Sir Gilbert

  Wylie, Alexander

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G(Midd'x

  Plummer. Walter R.

  Wyndham, Quin, Major W. H.

  Hardy Laurence (Kent, Ashford

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Haslett Sir James Horner

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Purvis, Robert

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Helder, Augustus

  Pym C. Guy

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  NOES.

  Allan, Sir William (Gateshead)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Shackleton, David James

  Allen, Charles P (Gloue., Stroud

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Helme. Norval Watson

  Slnelair, John (Forfarshire)

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Brigg, John

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C R(Northants

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Jones David Brynmor (Sw'nsea

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Langley, Batty

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

  Bryce. Rt. Hon. James

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Toulmin, George

  Burt, Thomas

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Caldwell, James

  Leng, Sir John

  Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.

  Cawley, Robert

  Levy, Maurice

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Weir, James Galloway

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  M'Crae, George

  White, Luke (York, E.R.

  Cremer, William Randal

  Moss, Samuel

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Newnes, Sir George

  Whittakar, Thomas Palmer

  Davies, M Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Norman, Henry

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid

  Dilke. Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Rea, Russell

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.

  Edwards. Frank

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidst'ne

  Roberts, John H (Denbighs.)

  Woodhouse, Sir. J T (Huddersfi'd

  Fenwick, Charles

  Robertson. Edmund (Dundee)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Runciman, Walter

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Gladstone, Rt Hn. Herbert John

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland

  Mr. Samuel Evans and

  Grant, Corrie

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Mr Alfred Mutton.

  MR. RUNCIMANsaid he moved the, Amendment standing in his name in order to get an expression of opinion from the President of the Local Government Board
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 5, line 36, after the word 'shall,' to insert the words, subject to notice to the local education authority.'"—(Mr. Runciman.)
  Question proposed, "That those words there inserted."
  MR WALTER LONGsaid the intention of the Amendment was that before certain action was taken the authority notice should he given. As a matter of fact he did not think that it was possible to take action without notice and full explanation of what it intended to do. He would, however, deal with the matter on the Report stage.
  MR. BRYCEpointed out that the time for discussing these matters Was very limited.
  SIR JOHN BRUNNER: Will the right hon. Gentlemen himself put the necessary Amendment down?
  MR. WALTER LONG: If I think it necessary I will do so.
  MR. RUNCIMAN: Then I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. HERBERT LEWISsaid he begged to move to leave out "shall" in line 36, in order to insert "may, if they think fit." These were the words in sub-Section (a) and if there was to be un-limited discretion in relation to secondary education, why should there not be the same discretion with reference to elementary education? The Leader of the house stated that he objected to liabilities incurred in the past being saddled on the ratepayers, and to meet that objection he would be willing to limit his Amendment to the future. But as regarded the future, he considered that the discretion of the County Council should be unlimited, both on educational grounds, and also on grounds of fairness to poor parishes. He would take the case of two adjoining parishes, both equal in point of area, and both having the
  948
  same educational needs and requirements. In one parish there might be important railway or other works, which would give it an enormous advantage. The other parish might have a small rateable value, Id. in the £ producing perhaps only £10 or £20 a year. The County Council might be convinced that the poorer parish should have a provided school, but its rating liability might be as heavy as it could reasonably be called upon to bear. Why should not the County Council have full discretion in such a case to bear such portion of the capital expenditure as it thought fit. Therefore, on educational grounds he hoped the Amendment would be accepted. There was no question of principle as between the Prime Minister and himself, as the right hon. Gentleman had conceded the principle in the Amendment he had put down, and it was now only a question of amount. They should trust the local authorities. The natural jealousy of the ratepayers as a whole would prevent any injustice being done; and the County Council would exercise its power in such a way as to do justice to a poor parish and. the educational needs of that parish.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 5, line 36, to leave out the word 'shall' and insert the words 'may if they think fit,"—(Mr. Herbert Lewis)
  Question proposed, "That the word shall ' stand part of the Clause."
  SIR ROBERT FINLAYsaid he hoped the Committee would not accept the Amendment. The hon. Gentleman said that there was no reason for any difference in the wording of sub-Section (a) and of sub-Section (c). He thought there was every reason for difference. Sub-Section (a) was intended to provide for strictly exceptional cases, where. there were special circumstances and where it was necessary to have some branch of secondary education; and while the Government recognised that secondary education should be borne by the rate over the whole county, sub-Section (a) provided that a Council might, if they thought fit, charge the cost of a secondary school to the particular locality having the sole use to it. Sub-Section (c), on the other hand, dealt with the case of providing,

  949
  buildings for the purposes of elementary education; and they had to look at the existing state of things. There were a certain number of parishes where schools had been provided, and they were free of debt. (An HON. MEMBER: "Not free of debt.") In a great many cases the schools were free of debt, and were provided by either private or public effort. These parishes were in a different position from parishes where no schools were provided, and should not be called upon to assume the burden of providing schools for other parishes after they had provided their own. There was an Amendment on the Paper in the name of the First Lord of the Treasury which gave a certain discretion as to the amount which might be advanced. He thought it was reasonable; and anyone looking at the question all round must admit that the locality which had yet to provide its schools should bear a certain share of the burden, as otherwise a gross inequality would be established between localities who had schools and localities who had no schools. That would not be just; and he hoped the Committee would not accept the Amendment.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he fully admitted that the Amendment standing in the name of the Premier did not meet the case to a very considerable extent, but he thought it would he better if more discretion were given to the County Council. He did not think there was any real danger of the County Council abusing that discretion, because the instinct of the ratepayer would be to cast the whole of the burden on special localities, and the Council might depend on it that if the cost were distributed over the whole county it would be for very good reasons. He was passing through Glamorgan recently with a County Inspector, and he pointed out a parish in which the rates in one year went up to 3s. 6d. in the £. It seemed to him almost incredible. The reason, the inspector said, was that there was no voluntary school, no squire living in the parish, no rich people, no works and no large farms. It contained poor, mountainous soil, and by the Education Act of 1870 the people in the parish were obliged to provide a school. As a result, the cost of education was kept down as much as possible, yet the pro sion of a small school, as cheaply as
  950
  possible, raised the rates to 3s. 6d. in the £. He did not think that the Amendment of the right hon. Gentle man would meet a case of that sort. A county like Glamorgan would very largely draw for the development of its resources on the very type of men brought up in little mountain parishes, and they made some of the best men in Cardiff, Swansea, and the Rhondda Valley. These men in the parishes like that mentioned were trained not for shepherds on the mountains but to develop the resources of the rich valleys in Glamorgan. If the poor parish he had mentioned went to the County Council of Glamorgan and said "Will you assist us to bear the burden of a little school—we could not help building it?" he had not the slightest hesitation in saving that the rich County Council of Glamorgan would reply "Certainly," and they would not consider whether they would give half or two-thirds, but would just ask what was fair. The real danger in giving, discretion in a case of that kind was that pressure might be brought to bear; but those-little poor parishes were just the parishes that could not bring pressure. They had only got the influence exerted by the development of their circumstances, and that was the influence which it was not fair for the House of Commons to resist. In a case like that quoted, why should a rich County Council like that of Glamorgan be prevented from taking all the circumstances into account and saying they would help the parish out of its difficulty? Why should they limit the discretion of the County Council?
  MR. LAURENCE HARDYsaid he hoped the Government would not accept the Amendment. He thought that many hon. Members felt that the proposal in the Amendment of the Prime Minister went as far as they ought to go with reference to the matter. The hon. Member who had just spoken said it would be very easy for a rich County Council to provide for special cases, but he would remind the hon. Gentleman that Cardiff, Swansea, and the other districts to which he referred, would be excluded from the administrative county which would have to bear the particular charge in the case he mentioned, and that charge would have to fall on poor districts which had

  951
  already schools, and which would have to bear in consequence a heavier burden. [An HON. MEMBER: Not unless they wished.] They would have to bear an additional burden whether they wished it or not, because they would have to pay the county rate out of which the schools would be provided.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid that the hon. Gentleman had misapprehended the Amendment. The Amendment was not to compel the County Council to assist to any extent; it wits simply to give them discretion.
  Mr. LAURENCE HARDYsaid the Amendment would throw the option entirely the other way. Small districts which had provided their own schools should not have a rate imposed on them in connection with the capital expenditure for the provision of schools in other localities.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid he thought the hon. Gentleman was not present when the Committee was discussing sub-Section (a). On that sub-Section the whole point of the Government's position was—and he thought there was a good deal of force in it—that the general system should be a county rate, but that there might be exceptional circumstances in regard to certain districts which would induce a County Council to throw some part of the cost on a particular locality. He could understand that position, but he could not understand the attitude of the Government in connection with sub-Section (c). Surely the same argument applied with equal and even greater force. All that was desired by the Amendment was to give the County Councils some latitude in particular cases. He agreed with the Attorney General that it would be hard to make one compulsory universal rate, which would fall on districts which had already provided their own schools, and which would be mulcted for places which had neglected their duty, but he hoped that Government would reconsider their decision and allow County Councils to have an option to deal with particular cases of hardship, which would be certain to arise.
  SIR JOHN BRUNNERsaid that, like the Attorney General, he disliked gross inequalities, and if he were of opinion that the Amendment would produce them he would not support it. It was because he desired to leave it to the County Council to do away with gross inequalities that he supported the Amendment. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Burghs had mentioned the case of the mountain parish in Wales being compelled to provide a school. He knew another case where a parish was compelled to build a school at a time when there was ample employment for all the adult male population, but the employment disappeared, and now only a few farmers remained, who were in the direst trouble. He knew another case where a manufacturer built a village. There were no other houses in the village except workmen's cottages, and before the property qualification for Boards of Guardians was abolished there was not a man in the village qualified to be a Guardian. Employment in that neighbourhood had now greatly diminished, and the people were in dire trouble. In the adjoining parish, where well-to-do people lived, a school was erected by public subscription at no great sacrifice. There they had two adjoining parishes, one well-to-do, the other dull, with small cottages naked and in a row; and it was because he desired that the County Council should have the option of redressing such inequalities that he heartily supported the Amendment.
  DR. MACNAMARAsaid both the Amendment and the Clause dealt with the capital charge for the provision of new schools. With reference to liabilities already incurred, he thought that a progressive, poverty-stricken parish which had provided itself with a school, ought to have its liabilities met out of the county rate. The liabilities ought to be pooled. He was alone in that. [HON. MEMBERS: No, no.] He was glad to hear he was not; but that was not the issue now. The issue was, What was to be the incidence of the capital charge for the provision of new schools? He earnestly hoped it would be the county rather than the parish.

  953
  The Government believed that education should be in the main a national charge. Surely it was the county rather than the parish that should meet whatever charge would be put on the localities. The curse of the Act of 1870, which had made the present Bill possible to many, was that it took the parish as the unit of administration and financial obligation. He remembered the First Lord of the Treasury relating to the House how many poor parishes there were which had a rate of 30d. in the £ to meet its administrative machinery. The right hon. Gentleman was wrong as regarded the 30d., although the amount was large, but if the Bill were to get rid of such difficulties, it was now for the Government to act. At present 25 percent. of the English School Board parishes had a rate which ranged from 1s. to 3s. 6d. In Wales in 33 per cent. of the School Board parishes the rate ranged from is. to 3s. 6d. That was the result of taking the parish as the unit of financial administration. He (the hon. Member) would rather contrast parishes where a penny rate brought in only £2 10s. with others where it produced a bout£300. How could parishes where a penny rate brought in only £2 10s. resist the blandishments of any denomination who offered them a building at no charge? Such parishes would then be committed to a denominational school as long as this Act remained unrepealed. Surely the County Councils should have a discretion so that they might help these poverty-stricken districts. A stronger case could not be made out than that for the Amendment, and he hoped it would be agreed to.
  MR. WALTER LONGsaid no one could deny the power and authority with which the hon. Member for North Camberwell spoke on these questions, but he thought the hon. Gentleman had, unintentionally no doubt, put the case in a false light. He had more than once said that education was a national object.
  DR. MACNAMARA: I said "in the main."
  MR. WALTER LONG: Very well, in the main. It was all very well for hon. Gentlemen opposite to attack the Government, and to describe its action
  954
  in their own phraseology, and to talk about education being in the main a national object. What had been done by the different parties in the House towards making education a national object? So far as assistance to education from national funds was concerned, he thought the subventions had come almost entirely from one side of the House. The Government had given proof, not only in the present, but in the past, of their desire that the nation should bear a fair share of the cost of national education. But this was a totally different question, and had nothing to do with national education. It was a question as between different parishes in a county. The hon. Member had spoken of the poverty-stricken parish being called upon to provide a school, but he forgot the parish, equally poverty-stricken, which by great efforts and at great sacrifices had provided a school. Was such a parish to be rated in order to find schools for other parishes? Was not one side of the picture as much entitled to consideration as the other The difficulty they were in in this matter vas a difficulty they always encountered in approaching questions of local government; that was, that they could not approach the question as if there was no past history or previous action connected with it. Was there any detail in local government as to which they would not have taken a different course to that they had taken if they had been working on new ground altogether? They had to deal with things, not as they would like them to be, but as they found them. There were many places in the country in which remarkable efforts had been made to provide schools, and yet it was suggested that these places were to be rated to provide schools in places where no provision at all had been made locally. The proposal of the Bill, taking facts as they were, was the fairest that could be made, and he hoped the Committee would not adopt an Amendment which he believed would work great injustice.
  MR. BRYCEdesired to recall one great principle of the Bill. The Bill did not declare that education was a national charge, but it declared that it was a county charge; that was the basis of the whole Bill; that was to say, that the county was to bring up all its schools to the

  955
  same level, and he contended that it was a great deviation from that principle to refuse to allow the County Council when it thought a case had been made out, to throw the cost of providing a particular school on the county. One of the great evils connected with education in rural districts was the defectiveness of tho buildings; in many cases they were too small, in others insanitary. In nothing was the bringing in of the county likely to do more good than in the provision of better buildings. If, however, a poor parish was always to bear the charge of building a new school or enlarging its existing school, the representatives of the parish would go to the County Council and beg them not to insist on the expenditure because of the burden it would throw on the parish. It was really in the interests of efficient education that the County Councils should be allowed a discretion.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSpointed out that under the proposal of the Government the County Council, without exercisingany discretion at all, was to make poor parishes, if they could, pay for all their future schools. The result would be that the small parishes would be either without improved or new schools or they would fall hack on the old bad system of denominational education. The principle of the Amendment was the equalisation of the charge. The broader they made the field the easier would be the burden, and obviously the area of the county would make the burden easier than the area of the parish. The Amendment was really enforced in the strongest possible manlier by a proposal which the Prime Minister had placed on the Paper. First of all it was intended that there
  should be no discretion whatever, but there was now to be a sort of truncated discretion. If an expenditure of £300 was proposed, according to the Prime Minister, the parish was to he made to pay not less than £150 or more than £225 of it. The discretion of the County Council, which had been so much preached on the other side, was to be measured by pounds, shillings and pence, and it was to be between the sums of £150 and £225. The Amendment placed no compulsion on the County Council; it simply enabled them so to provide that the richer parishes helped the poorer in the provision of new schools. There was really no difference between the Prime Minister and his hon. friend; the former proposed that certain things should be done if the County Council thought fit while the latter suggested that certain things might be done if the County Council thought fit. Sound sense was entirely in favour of the Amendment and he hoped it would be carried.
  MR. WHITLEYsaid that if the word "shall" were read in conjunction with an Amendment shortly to be moved by the First Lord of the Treasury, it would be seen that the richest parishes would only have to pay three-fourths of the cost of building a school, the remaining fourth being paid by the poorer parishes. It was truly a case of "To them that hath shall be given."
  (10.18.) Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 214 Noes, 100. (Division List, No. 507.)

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Davies, Sir Horatio D(Chatham

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Keswick, William

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Kimber, Henry

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Renwick, George

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Knowles, Lees

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Doughty, George

  Lambton, Hn. Frederick Wm.

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Law, Andrew Ronan (Glasgow

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Rutherford, John

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Sackville. Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J.(Manc'r

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Lockie, John

  Sandys, Lient.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Finch. George H.

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Seely, Maj. J. E.B.(Isle of Wight

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Fison, Frederick William

  Lowe, Francis William

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon

  Loud, Archie Kirkman

  Smith, H C(North'mb, Tyneside

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks)

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Flower, Ernest

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Forster, Henry William

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

  Foster, Philip S (Warwick, S.W

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Gardner, Ernest

  Malcolm, Ian

  Stock, James Henry

  Gibbs, Hn. A G H (City of Lond.

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Gibbs Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

  Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire

  Stroyan. John

  Godson, Sir. Augustus Frederick

  Milvain, Thomas

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Thompson, Dr. E C (Monagh'n, N

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Morgan, David J (Walth'mstow

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Greene, Sir EW(B'rySEdm'nds

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Groves, James Grimble

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Tully, Jasper

  Guthrie, William Murray

  Mount, William Arthur

  Valentia, Viscount

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Murray, Rt Hn Graham (Bute

  Vincent, Col Sir C. E. H. (Sheff'ld

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  Myers. William Henry

  Walrond, Rt Hn. Sir William H

  Handy, Lawrence (Kent, Ashf'rd

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Warde, Col. C. E.

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Hay, Hon Claude George

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

  Whiteley, H (Ashton und. Lyne

  Helder, Augustus

  O'Doherty, William

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Wilson, J. W, (Worcestersh. N.)

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R.(Bath)

  Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Percy, Earl

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart-

  Hoult, Joseph

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm

  Plummper, Walter R.

  Wylie, Alexander

  Hozier, Hon James Henry Cecil

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Hutton, John (Yorks. N.R.)

  Purvis, Robert

  Jameson. Major Eustace

  Pym, C. Guy

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Randles, John S.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Kemp, George

  Rankin, Sir James

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  NOES.

  Allan, Sir William (Gateshead)

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Allen, Charles P (Gloue., Stroud

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Burt, Thomas

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Caldwell James

  Dunn, Sir William

  Bayley, Thomas(Derbyshire)

  Cameron. Robert

  Edwards, Frank

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Cawley, Frederick

  Emmett, Alfred

  Bell, Richard

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Brigg, John

  Cremer, William Randal

  Fenwick, Charles

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Ferguson, R.C. Munro (Leith)

  958

  959

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Mather, Sir William

  Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings

  Gladstone, Rt. Herbert John

  Moss, Samuel

  Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower

  Grant, Corrie

  Newnes, Sir George

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Norman, Henry

  Toulmin, George

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Trevelvan, Charles Philips

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-

  Priestley, Arthur

  Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Rea, Russell

  Walton, Joseph (Bartisley)

  Hemphill Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Weir, James Galloway

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  White, George (Norfoldk)

  Humphrey-Owen, Arthur C.

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Robertson. Edmund (Dundee)

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

  Runciman, Walter

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Kearley, Hudson F.

  Samuel, Herbert, L(Cleveland)

  Wilson, Fred. W.(Norfolk, Mid.

  Kitson, Sir James

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W R)

  Langley, Batty

  Shackleton, David James

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Woodhonse, Sir. J T. (Huddersf'd

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Leng, Sir John

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Levy, Maurice

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Lloyd-George, David

  Soares, Ernest J

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Spencer. Rt Hn. C. R. (Northants

  Mr. Herbert Lewis and

  M'Crae, George

  Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe

  Dr. Macnamara.

  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name. This question has already been discussed, and in the present condition of the discussion of the Bill, I think I shall best serve the general interest if I move the Amendment without words.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 5, line 36. after the word 'charge,' to insert the words 'such portion as they think not being less than one-half or more than three-fourths of."'—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
  MR BRYCE: I think the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment is better than nothing.
  MR. RUNCIMANmoved to amend the proposed Amendment by leaving out the words "being less than one-half or."
  Amendment to the Amendment nagatived.
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. HERBERT ROBERTSmoved the omission of sub-Section (d). He said that he did so upon two main grounds. In the first place
  960
  because he thought it ought to be omitted in fairness to the ratepayers, and in the second place because he thought it would be a good thing for education. If it was right in the case of the building of a new school that the County Council should provide half the cost, upon what ground could it be said that the same treatment should not be dealt out to existing schools. He could not see himself that there was the slightest difference between the two cases. He moved this Amendment also upon the general ground of equality of treatment. The First Lord of the Treasury, earlier in the proceedings, upon another Amendment, made a point of the fact that those chool Districts which had not had a School Board rate ought not to be penalised for having contributed to districts which had had a school board rate. The President of the Local Government Board snore than once pointed out that it would be grossly unfair upon those districts which had avoided the rate that they should be penalized by having to contribute anything to the liabilities incurred by the poorer districts. But where did the sacrifice really lie? Was it not more true to say that those districts which had for the last twenty or twenty-five years paid the rate should receive more considerate treatment? The principle of this Amendment was the broad one of equal rating

  961
  treatment throughout the county, and this equality of rating treatment could only, upon the whole, be secured by equal rating, and by enabling the local education authority to lay, as far as possible, equal rates upon every district in the county. There was only one further remark which he desired to make. He thought the Committee had not sufficiently realised that these School Board districts under this Bill would not be exactly in the sane condition as they bad been up to now. It was quite a different thing to ask any School Board district to continue to be liable for their debts when they bad popularly elected managers, and to ask them to do so under the provisions of this Bill. All these considerations pointed to the fairness of treatment which would be established by his Amendment. He begged to move the Amendment standing in his name.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 5, line 41, to leave out sub-Section (d)—(Mr. Herbert Roberts.)
  Question proposed, "That the words 'the County Council shall' stand part of the Clause."
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The Bill as it stands, and as it will be amended by a Government Amendment standing in the name of the Secretary to the Board of Education—I beg pardon, standing in my own name—will leave the charge exactly where it is at present, and that, broadly, may and will meet the equities of the case were it not that they handed over to the County Council all the money under the Act of 1897. If we handed over that money to the County Council for the general purposes of education, we think it only fair that, in return for that surrender, a certain proportion of the debt thrown on the locality should be' borne by the general area over which the local education authority presided. That is the justification of the sub-Section as it will be amended, I hope,
  962
  by my Amendment, and I hope that justification will seem sufficient to the Committee.
  SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid it was believed that, even with the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman, many districts would be much worse off than they were under the Necessitous School Boards Act.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Everybody-thinks they will be worse off.
  SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid that this proposal did not hand the money over to the county. If the Bill had not been amended at all the money would not have issued, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have benefited by it. This was an oversight which the Government had now attempted to correct by the Amendment of the Leader of the House. It was still believed that this Amendment would make those districts worse off than they were under the Necessitous Schools Grant. They would be very badly off as compared with the county as a whole, and there was no ground why this should not He a charge on the whole of the area instead of being a charge upon the poor districts. He was sure any hon. Member of this House would admit that there was an extremely hard case where parishes had been lumped together, for they were very often parishes in which the question of the Church and Nonconformity did not arise. But the real point was that they lost the whole of the local control. They would have no vestige of any special interest in the school, and yet the debt on that school would remain with them instead of going to the county area. These were such extremely hard cases that the Government would be bound to find some remedy for them between now and the Report stage. He heartily supported the Amendment of his hon. friend.
  DR. MACNAMARAsaid that those districts which had rated themselves

  963
  for schools in the past should be enabled now to meet their liabilities out of the country rate. There were many parishes which had incurred liabilities because they set themselves rigidly against denominationalism and provided schools. In order to do this they had paid rates ranging from 1s. to 3s. 6d., and now it was proposed that, over and above the county rate, they were to be rated for having pursued a policy of progressivism rather than of obscurantism. Nothing could be more unfair. He instanced the parish of Roseland, in Cornwall, where the people had paid a rate of 1s. 10½d. In that parish 1d. in the £14 brought in £14, so that the yield of the rate imposed was about £300. They had paid that rate freely, while possibly their neighbours in the adjoining parishes had not rated themselves a farthing. These good people in Roseland had a liability of £3,600 to meet, and now, in addition to the county rate, they would have to pay in respect of that liability until the debt was wiped out. He quoted that case at random as illustrating what would happen, and it was not an extreme case. Indeed, it was a very moderate case. If the First Lord thought that these people were likely to look with favour on education in future he was very much afraid the right hon. Gentleman was mistaken.
  SIR BRAMPTON GURDONurged that the provided schools should be put on the same basis as the voluntary schools in respect of the rent of teachers' houses. He had given notice of an Amendment to that effect, and he hoped the Government would put words into the Clause for that purpose.
  MR. CHANNINGsaid he spoke as the representative of several School Board districts where there had been a heavy outlay on schools with a very heavy rate, and which were Necessitous School Boards, He wished to enter his emphatic protest against the sub-Section in its original form, and also against the inadequate remedy offered by the First Lord at the last moment in regard to districts which had, with great public spirit and enormous sacrifices, provided themselves with excellent schools.
  (10.53.) Question put.
  'That the words 'The County Council shall' stand part of the Clause.'"
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 232; Noes, 128. (Division List No. 508.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Bigwood, James

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Bond, Edward

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. JA (Wroc.

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Chapman, Edward

  Arrol, Sir William

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Charrington, Spencer

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Brookfield, Col. Montagu

  Clare, Octavious Leigh

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Balcarres, Lord

  Bullard Sir Harry

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Burdett-Coats, W.

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J.(Manch'r

  Butcher, John George

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Carlile, William Walter

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Bignold, Arthur

  Cavendish, V.C.W (Derbyshire

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Davies, Sir Horatio D(Chatham

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Keswick, William

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Kimber, Henry

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Renwick, George

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Knowles, Lees

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Doughty, George

  Lambton, Hn. Frederick Wm.

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Law, Andrew Ronan (Glasgow

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Rutherford, John

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Sackville. Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J.(Manc'r

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Lockie, John

  Sandys, Lient.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Finch. George H.

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Seely, Maj. J. E.B.(Isle of Wight

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Fison, Frederick William

  Lowe, Francis William

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon

  Loud, Archie Kirkman

  Smith, H C(North'mb, Tyneside

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks)

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Flower, Ernest

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Forster, Henry William

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

  Foster, Philip S (Warwick, S.W

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Gardner, Ernest

  Malcolm, Ian

  Stock, James Henry

  Gibbs, Hn. A G H (City of Lond.

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Gibbs Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

  Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire

  Stroyan. John

  Godson, Sir. Augustus Frederick

  Milvain, Thomas

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Thompson, Dr. E C (Monagh'n, N

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Morgan, David J (Walth'mstow

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Greene, Sir EW(B'rySEdm'nds

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Groves, James Grimble

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Tully, Jasper

  Guthrie, William Murray

  Mount, William Arthur

  Valentia, Viscount

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Murray, Rt Hn Graham (Bute

  Vincent, Col Sir C. E. H. (Sheff'ld

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  Myers. William Henry

  Walrond, Rt Hn. Sir William H

  Handy, Lawrence (Kent, Ashf'rd

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Warde, Col. C. E.

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Hay, Hon Claude George

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

  Whiteley, H (Ashton und. Lyne

  Helder, Augustus

  O'Doherty, William

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Wilson, J. W, (Worcestersh. N.)

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R.(Bath)

  Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Percy, Earl

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart-

  Hoult, Joseph

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm

  Plummper, Walter R.

  Wylie, Alexander

  Hozier, Hon James Henry Cecil

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Hutton, John (Yorks. N.R.)

  Purvis, Robert

  Jameson. Major Eustace

  Pym, C. Guy

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Randles, John S.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Kemp, George

  Rankin, Sir James

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  NOES.

  Allan, Sir William (Gateshead)

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Allen, Charles P (Gloue., Stroud

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Burt, Thomas

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Caldwell James

  Dunn, Sir William

  Bayley, Thomas(Derbyshire)

  Cameron. Robert

  Edwards, Frank

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Cawley, Frederick

  Emmett, Alfred

  Bell, Richard

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Brigg, John

  Cremer, William Randal

  Fenwick, Charles

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Ferguson, R.C. Munro (Leith)

  958

  959

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Mather, Sir William

  Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings

  Gladstone, Rt. Herbert John

  Moss, Samuel

  Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower

  Grant, Corrie

  Newnes, Sir George

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Norman, Henry

  Toulmin, George

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Trevelvan, Charles Philips

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-

  Priestley, Arthur

  Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Rea, Russell

  Walton, Joseph (Bartisley)

  Hemphill Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Weir, James Galloway

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  White, George (Norfoldk)

  Humphrey-Owen, Arthur C.

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Robertson. Edmund (Dundee)

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

  Runciman, Walter

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Kearley, Hudson F.

  Samuel, Herbert, L(Cleveland)

  Wilson, Fred. W.(Norfolk, Mid.

  Kitson, Sir James

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W R)

  Langley, Batty

  Shackleton, David James

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Woodhonse, Sir. J T. (Huddersf'd

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Leng, Sir John

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Levy, Maurice

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Lloyd-George, David

  Soares, Ernest J

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Spencer. Rt Hn. C. R. (Northants

  Mr. Herbert Lewis and

  M'Crae, George

  Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe

  Dr. Macnamara.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J.(Manch'r

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Balfour, Capt. C. (Hornsey)

  Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.

  Arrol, Sir William

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Atkinson, Et. Hon. John

  Bignold, Arthur

  Bull, William James

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Bigwood, James

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Balcarres, Lord

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Butcher, John George

  Carlile, William Walter

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Purvis, Robert

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Pym, C. Guy

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Randles, John S.

  Cavendish, V.C.W (Derbyshire

  Hoult, Joseph

  Rankin Sir James

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Howard, John (Kent, F' versh'm

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Cecil. Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J.A.(Worc

  Hutton John (Yorks. N.R.)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Chapman, Edward

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Charrington, Spencer

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Renwick, George

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Ridley, Hon. M. W (Stalybridge

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Kemp, George

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Colston, Charles Edw. H. Athole

  Kenyon ,Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh)

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Keswick, William

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow

  Kimber, Henry

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Knowles, Lees

  Rutherford, John

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Davies, Horatio D(Chatham

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Lee, Arthur H(Hants., Fareham

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Sharpe. William Edward T.

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Doughty, George

  Lockie, John

  Smith ,Abel H.(Hertford, East

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Smith. James Parker (Lanarks.

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

  Stanley, Hn Arthur (Ormskirk

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Stanley, Edward ,Jas. (Somerset

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Lowe, Francis William

  Sttirling-Maxwelr Sir John M.

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Stock, James Henry

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Lucas, Reginald. J. (Portsmouth)

  Stroyan, John

  Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J (Manc'r)

  Lyttelton. Hon. Alfred

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Fielden. Edward Brocklehurst

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Finch, George H.

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Talbot Rt. Hn. J.G (Oxf'd Univ.

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Thompson, Dr. EC(Monagh'n N

  Fisher, William Hayes

  M'Killop, James(Stirlingshire

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Fison, Frederick William

  Malcolm. Ian

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F.

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Maxwell, W.J.H.(Dumfriessh.

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Flower, Ernest

  Milvain, Thomas

  Tully, Jasper

  Forster. Henry William

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Valentia, Viscount

  Foster, Philip S. (WarwickS.W

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Vincent, Col. Sir C.(Sheffi'ld

  Gardner, Ernest

  Morgan, David ,J Walthamst'w

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Garfit William

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  Gibbs, Hn. A G H (City of Lond.

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Gibbs, Hon. Vicary(St. Albans)

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Welby, Lt. -Col. A .C.E (Taunt'n

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Mount, William Arthur

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Gorst, Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

  Whiteley,H (Ashton und. Lyne

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Myers, William Henry

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)

  Greene, Sir E W (B'ryS Edm'nds

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H (Yorks)

  Gretton, John

  Nolan, Col. JohnP. (Galway, N.

  Wodehouse, Rt Hn. E.R. (Bath

  Groves, James Grimble

  O'Doherty, William

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B Stuart

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Wylie, Alexander

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Wyndham Rt Hon. George

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  Percy, Earl

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Hay. Hon. Claude George

  Plummer. Walter R

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Helder, Augustus

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  NOES.

  Allan, Sir William (Gateshead)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Allen, Charles P.(Glouc., Stroud

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbysh)

  966

  967

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Samuel Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Bell, Richard

  Horniman, Frederick ,John

  Schwann, Charles E,

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Shackleton, David James

  Brigg, John

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Broadhurst, Henry-

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Shaw. Thomas (Hawick B.

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Jones, David Brymnor (Sw'nsea

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Burt, Thomas

  Kitson, Sir James

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Langley, Batty

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Caldwell, James

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Spencer, Rt Hn C. R. (Northants

  Cameron, Robert

  Leese, Sir, Joseph F. (Accrington

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Campbell- Bannerman, Sir H.

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Causton. Richard knight

  Leng, Sir John

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Levy, Maurice

  Tennant, Harold John

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Lloyd-George, David

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Lough, Thomas

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Thomas, JA (Glamorgan Gower

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  M'Crae, George

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Tomkinson, James

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Mather, Sir William

  Toulmin, George

  Dunn, Sir William

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Edwards, Frank

  Moss, Samuel

  Wallace, Robert

  Elibank, Master of

  Newnes, Sir George

  Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.

  Emmott, Alfred

  Norman, Henry

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Wason, Eugene

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan

  Partington, Oswald

  Weir, James Galloway

  Fenwick, Charles

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Perks, Robert William

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Fitzmanrice, Lord Edmund

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Whitley, George (York, W.R.)

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Pickard, Benjamin

  Whiteley, J.H.(Halifax)

  Fowler. Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Price, Robert John

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid

  Gladstone, Rt Hn. HerbertJohn

  Priestley, Arthur

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.

  Goddard. Daniel Ford

  Rea, Russell

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Grant. Corrie

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Woodhouse, Sir J T. (Huddersf'd

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick)

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Yoxall, ,Tames Henry

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Robson, William Snowdon

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Mr. Herbert Roberts and

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Runciman, Walter

  Mr. Channing.

  It being after Eleven of the Clock, the CHAIRMAN, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 11th instant, proceeded successively to put forthwith the Question on the Amendments moved by the Government of which notice had been given, and on every Question necessary to dispose of the allotted business.

  The Committee divided:— Ayes,232; Noes, 124. (Division List No. 509.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Butcher, John George

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Carlile, William Walter

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Bignold, Arthur

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Bond, Edward

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Arrol, Sir William

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derhyshire

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Balcarres, Lord.

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Chamberlain, Rt Hon JA(Worc.

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J. (Manch'r

  Brown, Alexander H(Shropsh.

  Chapman, Edward

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Charrington, Spencer

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

  Bull, William James

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Balfour, Kenneth R.(Christch.

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 5, line 41, after the word raise to insert the words 'such portion as they think tit, not being less than one-half or more than three-fourths of.'"—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
  (11.4.) Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Hutton, John (Yorks, N.R.)

  Pym, C. Guy

  Cohen. Benjamin Louis

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Randles, John S.

  Colston Chas Edw. H. Athole

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Kemp, George

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Renwick, George

  Crossley. Sir Savile

  Keswick, William

  Ridley Hon M.W. (Stalybridge

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Kimber, Henry

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Davies, SirHoratioD, (Chatham

  Knowles. Lees

  Robertson, Herbert, (Hackney

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Law, Andrew Ronan (Glasgow)

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Dixon-Hartland-land Sir Fred Dixon

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Doughty. George

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Rutherford, John

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareham

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Duke. Henry Edward

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Sassoon. Sir Edward Albert

  Egerton. Hon. A. de Tatton

  Lockie, John

  Seely, Maj. J.E.B. (Isleof Wight

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Long, Rt Hn. Walter(Bristol, S.)

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir (Manc'r

  Lowe, Francis William

  Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

  Fielden, Edward Brocklchurst

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.

  Finch, George H.

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Smith, Hun. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset

  Fison, Frederick William

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Fitzroy Hon. Edward Algernon

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Stock, James Henry

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  M' Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon Sir Henry

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Stroyan, John

  Flower, Ernest

  Malcolm, Ian

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Halley

  Forster, Henry William

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F.

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Foster. Philips. (Warwick, S.W

  Maxwell, WJH (Dumfriesshire

  Talbot, RtHn.J.G. (Oxf'd Univ.

  Gardner. Ernest

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M

  Thompson, DrEC(Monagh'n,N

  Garfit, William

  Milvain, Thomas

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Gibbs Hn. AG.H.(CityofLond

  Moon, Edward Robert Paey

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M

  Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

  More, Robt. Jasper(Shropshire)

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Morgan DavidJ (Walthanstow

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Tully, Jasper

  Grant, Corrie

  Motion, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Valentia, Viscount

  Greene, Sir EW(B'ryS, Edm'nds

  Mount, William Arthur

  Vincent, ColSirCEH. (Sheffield

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Walrnd, Rt. Hn. Sir WilliamH.

  Gretton, John

  Murray, RtHnA. Graham(Bute

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Groves, James Grimble

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Welby, Lt-Col C E. (Taunton

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Myers, William Henry

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Gurdon. Sir W. Brampton

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Whiteley, H(Ashton, und, Lyne

  Guthrie. Walter Murray

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N.)

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  O'Doherty, William

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Hamilton, RtHnLordG(Midd'x

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Wilson Todd, Wm. H(Yorks.)

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Wodehouse, Rt. E.R. (Bath)

  Hay, Hon. Clande George

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Wortley, Hon. C. R. Stuart

  Helder, Augustus

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Partington, Oswald

  Wylie, Alexander

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.)

  Percy, Earl

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Hope J F. (Sheffield ,Brightside

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Hoult, Joseph

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Howard, John(Kent Faversham

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Purvis, Robert

  Hood anti Mr. Anstruther.

  NOES.

  Allan, Sir William(Gateshead)

  Beanmont, Wentworth C. B.

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Allen, Charles P.(Glone.,Strond

  Bell, Richard

  Burt, Thomas

  Ashton. Thomas Gair

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Brigg, John

  Caldwell, James

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Cameron, Robert

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  970

  971

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Leese, Sir JosephF.(Accrington

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Leigh, Sir Joseph.

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Lena, Sir John

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Levy, Maurice

  Speneer, RtHnC.R.(Northants

  Cremer, William Randal

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Lough, Thomas

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  M'Care, George

  Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Tennant, Harold John

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Mather, Sir William

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan E.)

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Moss, Samuel

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr)

  Dunn, Sir William

  Newnes, Sir George

  Thomas, F. Freeman- (Hastings

  Edwards, Frank

  Norman, Henry

  Thomas, JA(Glantorgan Gower

  Elibank, Master of

  Norton, Captain Cecil William

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Emmott, Alfred

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Tomkinson, James

  Evans, Sir FrancisH (Maidstone

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Toulmin, George

  Evans, Samuel T.(Glamorgan)

  Perks, Robert William

  Trevelvan, Charles Philips

  Fenwick, Charles

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Wallace, Robert

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Pickard, Benjamin

  Walton, John Lawson(Leeds,S)

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Price, Robert John

  Wason, Eugene

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Priestley, Arthur

  Weir, James Galloway

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Rankin, Sir James

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Rea, Russell

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Whiteley, George (York. W. R.)

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Heline, Norval Watson

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Hemphill, Et. Hon. CharlesH.

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Wilson, John (Durham. Mid.)

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Runciman, Walter

  Woodhouse, Sir J T(Haddersf'd

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Jones, David Brynmor(Sw'nsea

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Shackleton, David James

  Kitson, Sir James

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Langley, Batty

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Mr. Herbert Gladstone

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  and Mr. William M'Arthur.

  Amendment pro posed——
  "In page 5, line 42, after the word liabilities' to insert the
  words, 'on account of loans.'" —(Sir William
  Anson.)

  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 236; Noes, 124. (Division List No. 510.)

  (11.18) Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
  Noes, 124. (Division List No. 510.)

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Lockie, John

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Loden, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Flower, Ernest

  Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Forster, Henry William

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S.

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Foster, PhilipS.(Warwick, S.W

  Lowe, Francis William

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Gardner, Ernest

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Rutherford, John

  Garfit, William

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Gibbs, Hn. A.G. H.(Cityof Lond.

  Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albeit

  Goschen, Hon. George, Joachim

  MacIver David (Liverpool)

  Seely, Maj.J.E.B.(IsleofWight

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Greene, Sir E. W (B'rySEdm'nds

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

  Majendie. James A. H.

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks

  Gretton, John

  Malcolm, Ian

  Smith, Home W. F. D (Strand)

  Groves, James Grimble

  Massey Main waring, Hon. W.F

  Stanley, Hon Arthur (Ormskirk

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Maxwell, W.J H(Dumfriesshire

  Stanley, Edward ,Jas.(Somerset

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Milvain, Thomas

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Moon, Edwin Robert Pacy

  Stock, James Henry

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  Morgan, David (Walth'mstow

  Stroyan, John

  Hardy, Laurence(KentAshford

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Talbot, RtHn.J.G.(Oxf'd Univ.

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Mount, William Arthur

  Thompson, Dr. EC(Monagh'n, N

  Helder, Augustus

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Murray, Rt Hn A Graham(Bute

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. H.

  Hoare, Sir Samuel.

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Myers. William Henry

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Tully, Jasper

  Hoult, Joseph

  Nolan, Col, John p. (Galway, N

  Valentia, Viscount

  Howard, John(Kent, Faversh'm

  O'Doherty, William

  Vincent, Col. Sir C EH (Sheffield

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Hutton, John (Yorks, N.R.)

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Welby, Lt-Col. A.C. (Taunton

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Percy, Earl

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Whiteley, H(Ashton- und Lyne

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Platt-Higgins. Frederick

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh)

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Keswick, William

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Wilson-Todd, Wm H (Yorks.)

  Kimber, Henry

  Purvis, Robert

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Pym, C. Guy

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Knowles, Lees

  Randles, John S.

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Rankin, Sir James

  Wylie, Alexander

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph(Monm'th

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Lee, Arthur H (Hants, Fareham

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Renwick, George

  Sir Alexander Acland

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  NOES.

  Allan, Sir William (Gateshead)

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan

  Allen, Charles P. (Glone., Stroud

  Cawley, Frederick

  Fenwick Charles

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  Bell, Richard

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Grant, Corrie

  Brigg, John

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness sh.

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick)

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Harmsworth, R. (Leicester)

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Dunn. Sir William

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Burt, Thomas

  Edwards, Frank

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Elibank, Master of

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Cameron, Robert

  Emmott, Alfred

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Evans, Sir Francis H(Maidstone

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  974

  975

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Pickard, Benjamin

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

  Jacoby. James Alfred

  Pixie, Duncan V.

  Thomas, F. Freeman -(Hastings)

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

  Price, Robert John

  Thomas, J.A(Glamorgan, Gower

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Priestley, Arthur

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W.R.)

  Kitson, Sir James

  Pea, Russell

  Tomkinson, James

  Langley, Batty

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Toulmin, George

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs

  Wallace, Robert

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Walton, John Lawson(Leeds,S.)

  Leng, Sir John

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Levy, Maurice

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Wason, Eugene

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland

  Weir, James Galloway

  Lough, Thomas

  Schwann, Charles E.

  White, George (Norfolk)

  M'Cerae, George

  Shackleton, David James

  White, Luke (York, K R.)

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Whiteley, George(York, W. R.)

  Mather, Sir William

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Moss, Samuel

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid

  Newness Sir George

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.

  Norman, Henry

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Spencer, Rt Hn C. R. (Northants

  Woodhouse, Sir. JT(Huddersfi'd

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Partington, Oswald

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Tennant, Harold John

  TELLEBS FOR THE NOES—

  Perks, Robert William

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E

  Mr. Caldwell and Mr.

  Philipps. John Wynford

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E

  Runciman.

  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 5, line 44, at the end, to insert the words, 'so far as it is Within their area.'" — (Sir William Anson.)

  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 238; Noes, 124. (Division List No. 511.)

  AYES

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Cavendish, V.C.W (Derbyshire

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurs

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Finch, George H.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J.A(Worc.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Chapman, Edward

  Fison, Frederick. William

  Arrol, Sir William

  Charrington, Spencer

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Atkinson. Rt. Hon. John

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Balcarres, Lord

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Flower, Ernest

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Forster, Henry William

  Balfour Rt. Hon. A.J.(Manch'r

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Foster, PhilipS. (Warwick, S. W

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Gardner, Ernest

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Garfit, William

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H (Cityof Lond.

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

  Bignold, Arthur

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Bigwood, James

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Goschen, Hon George Joachim

  Bond, Edward

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Davies, Sir HoratioD (Chatham

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Greene, Sir EW(BurvSEdm'nds

  Bowles, Capt. H.F.(Middlesex)

  Dimsdale, sir Joseph Cockfield

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Gretton, John

  Brown, Alexander H(Shropsh.

  Doughty, George

  Grove, James Grimble

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Bill, William James

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Butcher, John George

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Hamilton, Rt Hn LordG(Midd'x

  Carlile, William Walter

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Hardy, Laurence(kent, Ashf'rd

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Cavendish, R. E. (N. Lancs.)

  Fergusson, Rt Hn. SirJ.(Manc'r

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  (11.31.) Question put, "That thoset words be there inserted."
  Noes, 124. (Division List No. 511.)

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Maxwell WJH (Dumfriesshire

  Seely, Maj. J.E.B. (Isle of Wight

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Milvain, Thomas

  Sinclair, Louis (Rumford)

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Moon, Edward. Robert Pacy

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Hogg, Lindsay

  More. Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Hope, J.F (Sheffield, Brghtsisde

  Morgan, David J (Walthamst'w

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Hoult, Joseph

  Murrell, George Herbert

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Howard. John (Kent, Fav'rsliam

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Morton. Arthur H. Aylmer

  Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Mount, William Arthur

  Stanley Lord (Lanes.)

  Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.)

  Mowbray, Sir Robert. Gray C.

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

  Stock, James Henry

  Jessel, Captain Herbert. Merton

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Kemp, George

  Myers, William Henry

  Stroyan, John

  Kennaway, Rt. How Sir, John H.

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Strutt, Hon Charles Hedley

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Kenyon, Hon Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Nolan, Col John P. (Galway, N.

  Talbot, Rt Hn. G (Oxf'd Univ.

  Keswick, William

  O'Doherty, Wiiliam

  Thompson, Dr. EC (Monagh, nN

  Kimber, Henry

  Orr Ewing. Charles Lindsay

  Thornton. Percy M.

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Tomlinson. Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Knowles, Lees

  Parkes Ebenezer.

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Percy, Earl

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Law, Andrew Bonar(Glasgow)

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Lawrenee, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

  Platt Higgins, Frederick

  Tully, Jasper

  Lawrence. Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Valentia, Viscount

  Lee, Arthur H (Hants, Fareham

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Vincent, Col. Sir CEH (Sheffield.

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H

  Leigh-Bennett. Henry Currie

  Purvis, Robert

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Randles, John S.

  Welby, Lt.-Col A.C.E (Taunton

  Lockie, John

  Rankia. Sir James

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Whiteley, H (Ashton-und-Lyne

  Long Col. Charles W.(Evesham

  Reid James (Greenock)

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Long Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York. E.R.

  Lowe, Francis William

  Renwick, Charles

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)

  Ridley, Hon M.W.(Stalybridge

  Wilson-Todd. Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Ritchie Rt Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R. (Bath

  Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Wortley, Rt Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Lyttelton. Hon. Alfred

  Roberson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Wrightson. Sir Thomas

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Wylie, Alexander

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Wyndham. Rt. Hon. George

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Royds. Clement. Molyneux

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  M'Arthur. Charles (Liverpool)

  Rutherford, John

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Sadler. Col. Samuel Alexander

  THLLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Malcolm, Ian

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Massey-Mainwaring Hn W. F.

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  NOES.

  Allan, Sir William (Gateshead

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Allen, Charles P.(Gloue, Stroud

  Dewer, John A. (Inverness-sh

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Douglas. Charles M. (Lanark)

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Atherley, Jones, L.

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

  Bayley, Thomas (Derhyshire)

  Dum, Sir William

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Edwards, Frank

  Kitson, Sir James

  Bell, Richard

  Elibank, Master of

  Lambert, George

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Emmot, Alfred

  Langley, Batty

  Brigg, John

  Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Fenwick, Charles

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Lung, Sir John

  Burt. Thomas

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Levy, Maurice

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Lewis, john Herbert

  Caldwell, James

  Gladstone, Rt Hn. Herbert John

  Lough, Thomas

  Cameron, Robert

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  M 'Crae, George

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Grant, Corrie

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Causton, Richard knight

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick)

  Mather Sir William

  Cawley, Frederick

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Harmsworth. R. Leicester

  Moss, Samuel

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Hayne Rt. Hon Charles Seale

  Newnes, Sir George

  Cremer, William Randal

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Norman, Henry

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  978

  979

  Partington, Oswald

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Wallace, Robert

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Perks, Robert William

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Wason, Eugene

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Weir, James Galloway

  Pickard, Benjamin

  Soares, Ernest J.

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Spencer, Rt Hn. C.R (Northants

  White Luke (York, E. R.)

  Price, Robert John

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Whiteley, George (York, W.R.)

  Priestley, Arthur

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Rea, Russell

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Ricketts J. Compton

  Tennant, Harold John

  Wilson, Fred W. (Norfolk, Mid.)

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen E.)

  Wilson, Henry J. (York. W.R,)

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Woodhouse, Sir. J.T (Hudd'rsf'd

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings

  Runciman, Walter

  Thomas, J.A (Glamorgan Gower

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Schwann, Charles E

  Tomkinson, James

  Mr. Trevelyan and Mr.

  Shackleton, David James

  Toulmin, George

  John Wilson (Durham).

  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 6, line 12, at the end, to add the words, '(4) Where under any local Act the expenses incurred in any borough for the purposes of the Elementary Education Acts, 1870 to 1900, are payable out of some fund or rate other than the borough fund or rate, the expenses of the council of that borough under this Act shall be payable out of that fund or rate instead of out of the borough fund or rate; (5) Where any receipts or payments of money under this Act are entrusted by the local education authority

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Chamberlain Rt Hn. J.A (Worc.

  Fitzoy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Chapman, Edward

  Flannery, Sir Forteseue

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Charrington, Spencer

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Flower, Ernest

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Forster, Henry William

  Arrol, Sir William

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Gardner, Ernest

  Balcarres, Lord

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Garfit, William

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Gordon, Maj Evans (T'rH'mlets

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Bignold, Arthur

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Bigwood, James

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Greene, Sir EW (B'ry S. Edmn'ds

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham)

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

  Bond, Edward

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Gretton, John

  Bonsfield, William Robert

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Groves, James Grimble

  Bowles, Capt. H.F. (Middlesex

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Doughty, George

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Brown. Alexander H. (Shropsh.

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Brymer, William James

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord (Midd'x

  Bull, William Ernest

  Darning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'rd

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Butcher, John George

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants., W)

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Carlile, William Walter

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Fergusson. Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Cavendish. R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Finch, George H.

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.)

  Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Hogg, Lindsay,

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Fisher, William

  Hope, J.F. (Shellield, Brfghtside

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Fison, Frederick William

  Hoult, Joseph

  to any committee or managers, the accounts of these receipts and payments shall be accounts of the local education authority.'"—(Sir William Anson.)
  (11.41) Question put, "That those words be there added."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 234; Noes, 121. (Division List No. 512.)

  Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm

  More. Robt. Jasper (Shropshire

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Morgan, David J (Walth' mstow

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Hudson. George Bickersteth

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

  Hutton, John (Yorks., N.R.)

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhonse

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Mount, William Arthur

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Kemp, George

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir, John H.

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Stock, James Henry

  Kenyon Hon. Geo T. (Denbigh)

  Myers, William Henry

  Stone, sir Benjamin

  Keswick, William

  Nicholson. William Graham

  Stroyan, John

  Kimber, Henry

  Nicol. Donald Ninian

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  King, sir Henry Seymour

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Knowles, Lees

  O'Doherty, William

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G (Oxf'd Univ.

  Lambton. Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Thompson, Dr EC (Monagh'n ,N

  Law. Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Percy, Earl

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Lawson. John Grant

  Pierpoint, Robert,

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareham

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Take, Sir John Batty

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Valentia, Viscount

  Lergh Bennett, Henry Currie

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Vincent, Col. Sir C.EH (Sheffield

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. H.

  Lockie. John

  Purvis, Robert

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Handles, John S.

  Welby, Lt.-Col. ACE (Taunton

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Rankin, Sir James

  Wharton, Rt. Hon John Lloyd

  Long. Rt Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

  Lowe, Francis William

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Renwick, George

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsinouth

  Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Ritchie, Rt Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hon. E. R. (Bath

  Macdona. John Cumming

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart

  MacIver. David (Liverpool)

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Wylie, Alexander

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Majendle. James A.H

  Royds, Clement Molynenx

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Malcolm. Ian

  Rutherford, John

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Maxwell. W .J H (Dumfriesshire

  Sadler. Col. Samuel Alexander

  TELLER FOR THE AYES—

  Mevsey-Thompson. Sir H. M.

  Sasoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Milvain, Thomas

  Seely, Maj. J.E.B. (Isle of Wight

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  NOES.

  Allan, Sir William (Gateshead)

  Elibank, Master of

  Leng, Sir John

  Allen, Charhs P. (Gloue., Stroud

  Emmott, Alfred

  Levy, Maurice

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Lough, Thomas

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Fenwick. Charles

  M'Crae, George

  Beaumont. Wentworth C. B.

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Mather, Sir William

  Brigg, John

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Moss, Samuel

  Brunner. Sir John Tomlinson

  Grant, Currie

  Newnes, Sir George

  Bryce. Rt. Hon. James

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E.(Berwick)

  Norman, Henry

  Burt Thomas

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Buxton. Sydney Charles

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Caldwell. James

  Hayne. Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Partington. Oswald

  Cameron, Robert

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Campbell-Bannerman. Sir H.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Perks, Robert William

  Chammng. Francis Allston

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Pickard, Benjamin

  Cremer William Randal

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

  Price, Robert John

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Priestley, Arthur

  Davies, M Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Kitson, Sir James

  Rea, Russell

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Land Pert, George

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Doughts, Charles M (Lanark)

  Langley, Batty

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Dnucan, J. Hastings

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Dunn, Sir William

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Edwards-Frank

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  982

  983

  Runciman, Walter

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Whiteley, George (York, W.R.

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Thomas, J A (Glamorgan Gower

  Whittaker, Thomas palmer

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Wilson, Fred, W. (Norfolk, Mid.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Tomkinson, James

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R)

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Toulmin, George

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Woodhuse, Sir, J.T (Huddersf'd

  Spencer, Rt Hn. C.R (Northants

  Wallace, Robert

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Walton Joseph (Barnsley)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Wason, Engene

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Tennant, Harold John

  Weir. James Galloway

  Mr. Bell and Mr. Shackle

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen E.)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  ton.

  (11.57.) Question put, "That the Clause as amended stand part of the Bill."

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Anson, Sir-William Reynell

  Davies, Sir Hoyaio D (Chatham

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Arkwight, John Stanhope

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Habhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.)

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Arrol, Sir William

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Atkinson, Ht. Hon. John

  Dorington. Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Hoult, Joseph

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Doughty, George

  Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm

  Balcarres, Lord

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Hozier, Hon., James Henry Cecil

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. (Manch'r

  Doxford, Sir William Taheodore

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Hutton, John (Yorks, N.R.)

  Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

  During-Lawrence Sir Edwin

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Kemp, George

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Faber, Edmund B.(Hants, W.)

  Kennaway. Rt. Hon. Sir John H

  Bignold, Arthur

  Fell, Aves, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Bigwood, James

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn Sir J. (Mane'r

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Blundell Colonel Henry

  Fiehlen, Edward Brocklehurst

  Keswick, William

  Bond, Edward

  Finch, George H.

  Kimber, Henry

  Boseawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  King, Sir Henry Sermour

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Knowles, Lees

  Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex

  Fison, Frederick William

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Flannery, Sir Forteseue

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

  Brown, Alexander H (Shropsh.

  Fietcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Lawrence, F. (Liverpool)

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Flower, Ernest

  Lawson, John Grant

  Bull, William James

  Forster, Henry William

  Lee, Arthunr. H (Hants. Fareham

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S.W

  Legge, Col. Hon. Honeage

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Butcher, John George

  Gardner, Ernest

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Carlile, William Walter

  Garfit, -William

  Leckie, John

  Carson, Bt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Gihbs, Hn. A.G.H. (City of Load.

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Gibbs. Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Long, Rt Hn. Walter (Bristol. S)

  Cavendish, V.C.W (Derbyshire

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets

  Lowe, Francis William

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Lowther, C (Cumb., Eskilale)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn J.A. (Worc.

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth)

  Chapman, Edward

  Greene, Sir EW (Bry S. Edm'nds

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Charrington, Spencer

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Winston Spencer

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs

  MaeIver, David (Liverpool)

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Gretton, John

  M'Arthur, Charles Liverpool

  Clive, Captain Percy M.

  Groves, James Grimble

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E.

  Guest. Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Mjendie, James A. H.

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Malcolm, Ian

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Massey-Alain waving, Hn. W.F.

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Maxwell, W.J H. (D'mfri ssh're

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Hamilton, Rt. Hn Ld. G. (Midd'x

  Meysey-Thompson. Sir H.M

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Hard, Laurence (Kent, Ashford

  Milvain, Thomas

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Morgan David J (Walthamstow

  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 234; Noes,125, (Division List No. 513)

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Renwick, George

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge)

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Mount, William Arthur

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Gritham (Bute

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Valentia, Viscount

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Vincent, Col. Sir CEH (Sheffield

  Myers, William Henry

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Rutherford, John

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Welby, Lt. Col A. C. E. (Taunton

  Nolan Col. John P. (Galway, N)

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  O'Doherty, William

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und Lyne

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B (Isle of Wight

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Perey, Earl

  Smith, Abel H (Hertford, East)

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks)

  Wodehouse. Rt. He. E. R (Bath)

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur(Ormskirk)

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Wylie, Alexander

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Purvis, Robert

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Bandies, John S.

  Stock, James Henry

  Rankin, Sir James

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Basch, Major Frederic Carne

  Stroyan, John

  TELLERS FOR TETE AYES—

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Sir Alexander Acland

  Reid. James (Greenock)

  Talbot. Lord E. (Chichester)

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Thompson, Dr EC (Monagh'n, N

  NOES.

  Allan, Sir William (Gateshead)

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Allen, Charles P (Gloue., Stroud

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chance Seale-

  Runciman, Walter

  Ashton Thomas Gair

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Schwann. Charles E.

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Shackleton, David James

  Beaumunt, Wentworth C. B.

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Bell, Richard

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Brigg, John

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Kitson, Sir James

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Lambert, George

  Spencer, Rt. C. R. (Northants

  Burt, Thomas

  Langley, Batty

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Caldwell, James

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)

  Cameron, Robert

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Tennant, Harold John

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Leng, Sir John

  Thomas, Abel (Carmathen, F.)

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Levy, Maurice

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Thomas, David Aflfed (Merthyr

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Lough, Thomas

  Thomas, F. Freeman (Hastings)

  Craig Robert Hunter

  M'Crae, George

  Thomas, JA. (Glamorgan, Gower

  Cremer, William Randall

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Thomson F.E. (York, W. R.)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Mather, Sir William

  Tomkinson, James

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Toulmin, George

  Davies, M. Vanghan-(Cardigan)

  Moss, Samuel

  Treveyan, Charles Philips

  Dewar, John. A. Inverness-sh.

  Newnes, Sir George

  Wallace, Robert

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Norman, Henry

  Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.)

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Dunn, Sir William

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Wason, Eugene

  Edwards, Frank

  Partington, Oswald

  Weir, James Galloway

  Elibank, Master of

  Paulton, James Mellor

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Emmott, Alfred

  Pease, J A (Saffron Walden)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Evans. Sir Francis H (Maidstone.

  Perks Robert William

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Fenwick Charles

  Pickard Benjamin

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Pirie, Duncan V

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk. Mid

  Fowler, Hon. Sir Henry

  Price, Robert John

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.B.)

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Priestley, Arthur

  Wilson, John (Dunham, Mid.)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Rea, Russell

  Woodhouse, Sir. T (Hudd'rsfi'd.

  Grant, Corrie

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick)

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Grirffith, Ellis J.

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

  Mr. Herbert Gladstone and

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Robson, William (Snowdon)

  Mr. William M'Arthor.

  Clause 14:—
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page. 6, line 18, after the word 'borough.' to insert the words 'or urban district.'"—(Sir William Anson.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Lockie, John

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Fielder, Edward Brocklehurst

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Finch, George H.

  Long. Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Long, Rt Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Arrol, Sir William

  Fison, Frederick William

  Lowe, Francis William

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Flannery, Sir Forteseue

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Balcarres, Lord

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Forster, Henry William

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

  Fester, Philip S (Warwick, S.W.

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Gardner, Ernest

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Bignold, Arthur

  Garfit, William

  Malcolm. Ian

  Bigwood, James

  Gibbs, Hn. A.G.H (City of Lond.

  Massey- Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

  Maxwell, WJH (Durnfriesshireire

  Bond, Edward

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Meysey Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Gordom Maj Evans-(T'rH'ml'ts

  Milvain, Thomas

  Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex)

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Brodrick, Rt. Hn. St. John

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Morgan, David J. Walthamst'w

  Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.

  Greene, Sir EW (B'ry S Edm'nds

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Bull, William James

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Gretton, John

  Mount, William Arthur

  Butcher, John George

  Groves, James Grimble

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Carlile, William Walter

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Myers, William Henry

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  O'Doherty, William

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn J.A (Worc.

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Chapman, Edward

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Charring ton, Spencer

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Dobhouse, Henry(Somerset, E.

  Percy, Earl

  Clare, Octavins Leigh

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Hope. J.E. (Sheffield Brightside

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Hoult, Joseph

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Callings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Howard. John (Kent, Fav'rsh'm

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Purvis, Robert

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Hudson, George Biekersteth

  Randles, John S.

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Hutton, John (Yolks. N.R.)

  Rankin, Sir James

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Ratcliff, R F.

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Remnant, James, Farquharson

  Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

  Renwick, George

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P

  Keswick, William

  Ridley, Hn. M.W.(Stalybridge

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Kimber, Henry

  Ritchie, Rt.Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Dorington, Rt. Hon Sir John E.

  Knowles, Lees

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Doughty, George

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Lawson, John Grant

  Rutherford, John

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Lee, Arthur H (Hants. Fareham

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Elliott, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Seely Maj J. E. B (Isle of Wight)

  (12.8.) Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 219; Noes, 108. (Division List No. 514.)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Thnapson, Dr E.C (Monagh'n, N

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart-

  Smith, Hon. W. E D (Strand)

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur(Ormskirk)

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Wylie, Alexander

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Valentia, Viscount

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Vincent, Col. Sir CEH (Sheffield

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Stock, James Henry

  Walrond, Rt Hn. Sir William H.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Warde, Colonel C.E.

  Stroyan, John

  Welby, Lt. -Col. A .C. E (Taunt'n

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Whiteley, H (Ashton-und Lyne

  Hood. and Mr. Anstruther.

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G. (Oxf'd Univ.

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  NOES.

  Allen, Charles R (Gloue., Stroud

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Shackleton, David James

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Jones, David Brynmor (Sw'nsea

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Kitson, Sir James

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Lambert, George

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Bell, Richard

  Langley, Batty

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Brigg, John

  Layland-Baratt, Francis

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C.R (Northants

  Caldwell, James

  Leigh. Sir Joseph

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Cameron, Robert

  Leng, Sir John

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Levy, Maurice

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Tennant, Harold John

  Channing Francis Allston

  Lough, Thomas

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  M'Crae, George

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamoran, E.

  Cremer, William Randal

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Dalzie, James Henry

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Thomas, F. Freeman- Hastings

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Moss, Samuel

  Thomas, J.A (Gl'morg'n, Clower

  Davies, M Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Newnes, Sir George

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Dewar, John A.(Inverness-sh.)

  Norman, Henry

  Tomkinson, James

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Toulmin, George

  Duncan, J. Bastings

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Dunn, Sir William

  Partington, Oswald

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Edwards, Frank

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Wason, Eugene

  Elibank, Master of

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Weir, James Galloway

  Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone

  Philipps, John Wynford

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Pickard, Benjamin

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Whiteley, George (York, W.R)

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn Herbert John

  Price, Robert John

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Goddard, Daniel Font

  Priestley, Arthur

  Whittaker Thomas Palmer

  Grant, Corrie

  Rea, Russell

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Wilson, Henry J. (York W. R)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Roberts, John (Denbighs)

  Bayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Runciman, Walter

  Mr. Broadhurst and Mr

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Fenwick.

  Humaphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 6, line 19. to leave out the second word 'borough'"—(Sir William Anson.)

  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 102; Noes, 214. (Division List No. 515.)

  AYES.

  Allen Charles P. (Glouc ,Stroud

  Caldwell, James

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Cameron, Robert

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Bell, Richard

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Dunn, Sir William

  Brigg, John

  Cremer, William Randal

  Edwards, Frank

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Elibank, Master of

  (12.23.Question put "That the word 'borough' stand part of the Clause".

  Emmott, Alfred

  Morley, Charles (Brcconshire)

  Strachey. Sir. Edward

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Moss, Samuel

  Taylor, Theodore C (Radcliffe)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Newnes, Sir George

  Tennant, Harold John

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Norman, Henry

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Gladstone Rt Hn. Herbert John

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Partington, Oswald

  Thomas, David Alfred (M'rthyr)

  Grant, Corrie

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Thomas, JA (Glamorgan, Gower

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R,)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Tomkinson, James

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Price, Robert John

  Toulmin, George

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Priestley, Arthur

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Rea, Russell

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Wason, Eugene

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Weir, James Galloway

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Roberts, John (Denbighs.)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Robson, William Snowdon

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R)

  Kitson, Sir James

  Runciman, Walter

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Lambert, George

  Sainuel,Herhert L. (Cleveland)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Langley, Batty

  Sehwann, Charles E.

  Wilson. Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.

  Layland-Barratt; Francis

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Wilson, Henry J(York,W. R.)

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Leng, Sir John

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Levy, Maurice

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Lough, Thomas

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Sir Joseph Leese and Mr.

  M'Crae, George

  Spenser, Rt Hn C.R. (Northants

  Nussey.

  Markham, 'Arthur Basil

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  NOES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Haslett, Sir James Homer

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Arrol, Sir William

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Atkinson, Rt. Hen. John

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Dixon- Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Balcarres, Lord

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Doughty, George

  Hoult, Joseph

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Howard. John (Kent, Faversh'm

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Bignold, Arthur

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Hutton, John (Yorks, N.R.)

  Bigwood James

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Bond, Edward

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Kemp, George

  Boscawen, Arthur Gtiffith-

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex

  Finch, George H.

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Kenyon, Hon-Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Brown, Alexander H (Shropsh.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Keswick, William

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Fison, Frederick William

  Kimber, Henry

  Bull, William James

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Flannery, Sir Forteseue

  Knowles, Lees

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Fletcher, Bt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Butcher, John George

  Forster, Henry William

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

  Carlile, William Walter

  Foster, Phillin, S.(Warwick, SW.

  Lawson, John Grant

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Garfit, William

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Gibbs, Hn. A G.H. (City of Lond.

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Cavendish, V.C.W (Derbyshire

  Godson, Sir Augnstus Frederick

  Leckie, John

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn JA (Worc'r

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Chapman, Edward

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Charrington, Spencer

  Greene, Sir EW (Wry S. Edrdnds

  Lowe, Francis William

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Greene, Henry (Shrewsbury)

  Lowther, C. (Crumb., Eskdale)

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Clive, Capt Percy A.

  Gretton, John

  Lucas, Reginald J (Portsmouth

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Groves, James Grimble

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Collings. Hon. Jesse

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Corbett, A. Cameron(Glasgow)

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  Malcolm, Ian

  992

  993

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Rankin, Sir James

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Maxwell, WJH (Dumfriesshire

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G. (Oxf'd Univ.

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Ratcliffe, R. F.

  Thompson. Dr EC (Monagh 'n,N

  Milvain, Thomas

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Renwick, George

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Morgan, David J (Walthamstow

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Vincent, Col. Sir CEH (Sheffield

  Mount, William Arthur

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Walrond, Rt Hon Sir William H.

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

  Rutherford, John

  Welby, Lt.-Col. ACE (Taunton

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Myers, William Henry

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Whiteley, H (Asht'n-und -Lyne

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Seely, Maj. J. E.B.(Isle of Wight

  Wilson A. Stanley(York, E.R.

  Noan, Col. John P (Galway, N.)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  O'Doherty, William

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks)

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lin'say

  Smith, Abel H. (Hereford, East

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Smith, James Parker (Lanark)

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. Strand

  Wyhe, Alexander

  Percy, Earl

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Stanley, Ed ward Jas. (Somerset

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Stock, James Henry

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Purvis, Robert

  Stroyan, John

  Sir Alexander Acland

  Handles, John S.

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Medley

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 6, line 19, at the end, to add the words 'out of which the expenses of the Council under this Act are payable'"—(Sir William Anson)

  AYES.

  Agg Gardner, James Tynte

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick.

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T' H'ml'ts

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Arrol, Sir William

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Atkinson, Rt Hon. John

  Corbet, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Greene, Sir EW (Bury S Edm'nds

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Greene, Henry D (Shrewsbury)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Gretton, John

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Groves, James Gamble

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Balfour, Kenneth R (Christch.

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Bignold, Arthur

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  Bigwood, James

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Dorington, Rt. Sir John E.

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Bond, Edward

  Doughty, George

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Bowles, Capt. H. F.(Middlesex

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Brown, Alexander H.(Shropsh.

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Bull, William James

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.

  Hope, J. F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Fellowes. Hon Ailwyn Edward

  Howard, John (Kent, Faversham

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Fielden, Edwin Brocklehurst

  Hozier, Hon James Henry Cecil

  Butcher, John George

  Finch, George H

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Carlile, William Walter

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Hutton, John (Yorks, N.R.)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Fison, Frederick William

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Cavendish, V.C. W. (Derbyshire

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Kemp, George

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Forster. Henry William

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J.A (Worc.

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

  Chapman, Edward

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Keswick, William

  Charrington, Spencer

  Garfit, William

  Kimber, Henry

  (12.35.)Question put, "That those words be there added.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 204; Noes, 97. (Division List No. 516.)

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Myers, William Henry

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Knowles, Lees

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th)

  Nolan Col. John P.(Galway, N.)

  Stock, James Henry

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  O'Doherty, William

  Stroyan, John

  Lawson, John Grant

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Legge, Col. Hon. Hencage

  Painter, Walter (Salisbury)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G (Oxf'd Uriv.

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Percy, Earl

  Thompson, Dr. EC (Monagh'n, N

  Lockie, John

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Thornton, Percy M

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Long, Col Charles W. (Evesham

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Purer, Robert,

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Lowe, Francis William

  Randles, John S.

  Valentia, Viscount

  Lowther, C. (Comb., Eskdale)

  Rankin, Sir James

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E H (Sheffield

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Walrond, Rt Hn. Sir William H

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Warde, Col. C. E.

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C.E (Taunt'n

  M' Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Renwick, George

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Ritchie, Rt Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R)

  Maxwell, W.J H (Dumfriessh.

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H.(Yorks.)

  Milvain, Thomas

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Rutherford, John

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Wylie, Alexander

  Morgan, David J (Walth'mstow

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

  Alorton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Mount, William Arthur

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Murray, Rt Hn. A. Graham (Bute

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Hood and Mr. Austrther.

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  NOES.

  Allen. Charles P. (Glcuc., Stroud

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Aterley-Jones, L.

  Kitson, Sit James

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Lambert, George

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Langley, Batty

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Brigg, John

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Caldwell, James

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Spencer, Rt Hn C. R. (Northants

  Cameron, Robert

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Leigh, Sir John

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Levy, Manrice

  Tennant, Harold John

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen E.)

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Lough, Thomas

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  Cremer, William Randal

  M'Crae, George

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Thomas, JA (Glamorgan, Gower

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Thomson, E. W. (York, W.R.)

  Davies, M Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Moss, Samuel

  Tomkinson, James

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Newness Sir George

  Toulmin, George

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Norman, Henry

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Dunn, Sir William

  Nussey, Thomas Wilians

  Wason, Eugene

  Edwards, Frank

  Partington, Oswald

  Weir, James Galloway

  Elibank. Master of

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Philipps, John Wynford

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Fentwick, Charles

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Whiteley, George (York W. R.)

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn Herbert John

  Price, Robert John

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Priestley, Arthur

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Grant, Corrie

  Rea, Russell

  Wilson, Fred W.(Norfolk, Mid.)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Harmsworth, Rt. Leicester

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Runciman, Walter

  Mr. Schwann and Mr.

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Brynmor Jones.

  (12.45.) Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill"

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Garfit, William

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Mount, William Arthur

  Arrol, Sir William

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(TrH'mlets

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Balfour, Cant. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Greene, Sir E W (B'ry S. Edmnds

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Balfour, Rt Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds

  Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury)

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

  O'Doherty, William

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Gretton, John

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Bignold, Arthur

  Groves, James Grimble

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Bigwood, James

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Percy, Earl

  Bond, Edward

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Purvis, Robert

  Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Handles, John S.

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Rankin, Sir James

  Bulk William James

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Burdett-Coutts W.

  Hobhouse, Henry(Somerset, E.)

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Butcher, John George

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Carlile, William Walter

  Hope, J.F. (Sheffield ,Brightside

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Howard, John (Kent Faversh'm

  Renwick, George

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lanes.)

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn J.A (Worc

  Kennaway Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Chapman, Edward

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Rutherford, John

  Charrington, Spencer

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Keswick, William

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Kimber, Henry

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Seely, Maj J. E.B. (Isle of Wight

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Knowles, Lees

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monmth

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Lawson. John Grant

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Stanley, H n. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Dalrymple. Sir Charles

  Lockie, John

  Stock, James Henry

  Davies. Sir Horatio D (Chatham

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Stroyan, John

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Long, Col. Charles. W. (Evesham

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Dixon-Hartland Sir Fred Dixon

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Talbot, Rt Hn. J.G. (Oxf'd Univ.

  Doughty, George

  Lowe, Francis William

  Thompson, Dr EC (Monagh'n,N

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Lowther, C. (Cumb, Eskdale)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  M' Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Vincent, Col Sir C.EH (Sheffield

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Walrond, Rt Hn. Sir William H.

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Malcolm, Ian

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Finch, George H.

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F.

  Welby, Lt-Col A.C.E. (Tannton

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Maxwcll, WJH (Dumfriesshire

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Fisher, William Haves

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Whiteley. H (Ashton und. Lyne

  Fison, Frederick William

  Milvain, Thomas

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Forster, Henry William

  Morgan, David J (Walthamst'w

  Wilson-Todd ,Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  TheCommittee divided:—Ayes, 199; Noes. 93. (Division List No.517.)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart

  Wylie, Alexander

  TELLERSFOR THE AYES—

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Wyndham, Rt. Ron. George

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  NOES.

  Allen, Charles P. (Glouc., Stroud

  Jones, David Brynmor (Sw'nsea

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Ashton, Thomas Gaic

  Kitson, Sir James

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B)

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Lambert, George

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Bavley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Langley, Batty

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Brigg, John

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Caldwell, James

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Cameron, Robert

  Leng, Sir John

  Speacer, Rt Hn C.R (Northants

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Levy, Maurice

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe

  Cawley, Frederick

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Tennant, Harold John

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Lough. Thomas

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  Cremer, William Randal

  M'Crae, George

  Thomas, JA (Glamorgan, Gower

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Davies. Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Tomkinson, James

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Moss, Samuel

  Toulmin, George

  Dewar, John A.(Inverness-sh.)

  Newnes, Sir George

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Norman, Henry

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Duncan, J. Hastings.

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Wason, Eugene

  Edwards, Frank

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Weir, James Galloway

  Elibank, Master of

  Partington, Oswald

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Whiteley, George (York, W.R.)

  Gladstone, Rt Hn, Herbert John

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Price, Robert John

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Grant Corrie

  Priestley, Arthur

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk. Mid.

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Rea, Russell

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Harmswort, R. Leicester

  Roberts, John Bryn (Fifion)

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale

  Roberts, John H. (Deebighs.)

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Robson, William Snowdon

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Sir Edward Strachey and

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Runciman, Walter

  Mr. Beaumont.

  Humphreys Owen, Arthur C.

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Clause 15:—
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 6, line 29, to leave out the words, 'A local education authority,' and insert the words, An authority having powers under this Act.'"—(Sir William Anson.)

  AYES.

  Allen, Charles P (Gloue., Stroud.

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Moss, Samuel

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Grant, Corrie

  Newnes, Sir George

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Norman, Henry

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Brigg, John

  Hayne, Rt Hon. Charles Seale-

  Partington, Oswald

  Caldwell, James

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Cawley, Frederick

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Price, Robert John

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Jones, David Brynmor (Sw'nsea

  Priestley, Arthur

  Cremer, William Randal

  Lambert, George

  Rea, Russell

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Langley, Batty

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Roberts, John (Denbighs.)

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Leng, Sir John

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Levy, Maurice

  Runciman, Walter

  Edwards, Frank

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)

  Elibank, Master of

  Lough, Thomas

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan

  M'Crae, George

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Gladstone, Rt Hn. Herbert John

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  (12.58.) Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 88 Noes, 189. (Division List No. 518.)

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Tomkinson, James

  Whitley, J.H. (Halifax)

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Toulmin, George

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Spencer, Rt Hn. CR (Northants

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Wilson, Henry J. (York. W. R.

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Wason, Eugene

  Thomas, Abel (Camarthen, E.

  Weir, James Galloway

  Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.)

  White. George (Norfolk)

  THLLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Thomas, JA (Glamorgan, Gower

  White. Luke (York, E. R.)

  Mr. Cameron and Mr.

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W.R.)

  Whiteley, George (York, W.R)

  Frederick Wilson.

  NOES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick S.W

  Morghan, David J (Walth'mstow

  Agnew, Sir Andrew No I.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Morrell. George Herbert

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Garfit, William

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Godson, Sir Augustus Fredrick

  Moton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Arrol, Sir William

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH' ml'ts

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

  Colonel James Robert

  Gonloing, Edward Alfred

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Balfour, Capt. C.B.(Hornsey)

  Greene, Sir E. W (B'ry S Edm'nds

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerard W (Leeds

  Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury)

  Nolan, Col., John P.(Galway, N.

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Greene, W. Raymonnd-(Cambs.

  O'Doherty, William

  Beekett, Ernest William

  Gretton, John

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Bignold, Arthur

  Groves, James Grimble

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Bigwood, James

  Guest., Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Blundell Colonel Henry

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Percy, Earl

  Bond, Edward

  Halsey, Rt. Hon Thomas F.

  Pierpoin, Robert

  Boseawen, Arthur Griffith

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

  Pretyman Ernest George

  Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Muddle-ex)

  Hare Thomas Leigh

  Purvis, Robert

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Rankin, Sir, James.

  Brown, Hexander H.(Shropsh.

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Renkin, Sir James

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Bull, William James

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Reid, James (Greenmeek)

  Butcher, John George

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Remnant, James Frequharson

  Carlile William Walter

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Renwick, George

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm

  Ritchie Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire

  Hudson, George. Bickersteth

  Roberson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Ceil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Jebb, Sir Richard. Claverhouse

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J.A (Worc.

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Chapman Edward

  Kemp, George

  Rucherford. John

  Charrington, Spencer

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denhigh

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Clare, Octatvins Leigh

  Keswick, William

  Seely, Maj. J.E.B. (Isle of Wight

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos,. H. A. E.

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Knowles, Lees

  Sinclair, Louis (Rumford)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Lawrence, Sir. Joseph (Monm'th

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Cranhorne, Viscount

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Lawson, John Grant

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Stanley, Edward Jas (Somerset)

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Davies. Sir Horatro D. (Chatham

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Stock, James Henry

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Lockie. John

  Stroyan, John

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Stratt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Doughty, George

  Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Long, Rt Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Talbot, Rt Hn, J.G. (Oxf'd Univ.

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Lowe, Francis William

  Thompson, Dr EC (Monagh'n, N

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Lowether, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  M'Arthur Charles (Liverpool)

  Tuke, Sir John

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Valentia, Viscount.

  Fielden, Edward Broeklehurst

  Majendie, James A.H.

  Vincent, Col. Sir CEH (Sheffield

  Finch, George H.

  Malcolm, Ian

  Walrond, Rt Hn Sir William H.

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Maxwell, W.J. H. (Dumfriessh

  Wrelby, Lt.-Col. A.C. Taunt'n

  Fison Frederick William

  Meysey-Thonipson, Sir H. M.

  Wharton, Rt. Hon John Lloyd

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Milvain, Thomas

  Whiteley, H.(Ashton und Lyne

  Fletcher. Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Moon, Edward Robert Robert Pacy

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Forster, Henry William

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Wilson, A. Stanley. (York, E. R.

  1002

  1003

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Wylie. Alexander

  Sir Alexander Acland

  Wortley, Rt Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Wyndham, Rt, Hon. George

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  (1.8.)Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Foster, Phillips. (Warwick, S.W

  Murray, Charies J. (Coventry)

  Agnew. Sir Andrew Noel

  Galloway, Wiliam Johnson

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Garfit William

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Arnold Forster, Hugh O.

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Nilan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

  Arrol, Sir William

  Goschen , Hon George Joachim

  O' Doherty, William

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Goulding, Edward Alfred.

  Orr Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Greene, Sir EW (Bry S Edm'nds

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Greene, Henry. D. (Shrewsbury)

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey

  Greene, W. Rayrnond-(Cambs.)

  Percy. Earl

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

  Gretton, John

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Balfour, Kanneth R (Christch.

  Gloves, James Grimble

  Pretvinan, Ernest George

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Purvis, Robert

  Pignold, Arthur

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  handles, John S.

  Bigwood, James

  Hamilton Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  Rankin, Sir James

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Asbf'rd

  Ranch, Major Frederic Carne

  Bond, Edward

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex)

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Renwick, George

  Brown, Alexander H. (Shopsh.

  Hobbouse, Henry (Somerset E.)

  Richie, Rt. Hn Chas Thomson

  Beymer, William Ernest

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Bull, William James

  Hope,(Shffield, Brightside

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Howard John (Kent, Favrsham

  Repner, Colonel Robert

  Butcher, John George

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Ceeil

  Roods, Clement Molyneux

  Carlile, William Walter

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir. John H.

  Seely Maj. E.B. (Isle of Wight

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lanes.)

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Cavendish, V.C.W (Derbyshire

  Kenyon Hon Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Sinclair, Louis (Rumford)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Keswick, William

  Smith Abel H (Hertford, East)

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn J. A (Worc.

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Chapman, Edward

  Krowles, Lees

  Smith, Hon. W. E. D. (Strand)

  Charrington, Spencer

  Law, Andrew Benar (Glasgow)

  Stanley Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

  Stanley, Edward. Jas. (Somerset)

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Lawson, John Grant

  Stock, James Henry

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Stroyan, John

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Lockie, John

  Talbot, Rt Hn. J.G (Oxf'd Univ.

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Thompson Dr EC (Monagh'n, N

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Long, Col. Charles W, (Evesham

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Lowe, Francis William

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Lowther, C. (Comb., Eskdale)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Vincent, Col Sir C.EH (Sheffield

  Dimsdale Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Walrond ,Rt. Hn Sir William H

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  M'Arthur Charles (Liverpool)

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Doughty, George

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Welby, Lt. -Col A .C. E (Tannton

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Boxford, Sir William Theodore

  Malcolm, Ian

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn W,F.

  Willox, Sir ,John Archilbald

  Bursting-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Maxwell, W.JH (Dumfriesshire

  Wilson, A. Stauley Cyrork, E.R.)

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Milvain, Thomas

  Worley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Wylie, Alexander

  Finch, George H.

  Morgan, David J (Walthainstow

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Finlay, Sir Robert Banuatyne

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Fison, Frederick William

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Mount, William Arthur

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  Forster, Henry William

  Murray., Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

  The Committee dovided:—Ayes, 186; Noes, 85. (Division List No 519.)

  NOES.

  Allen, Charles P. (Glouc., Stroud

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Jones. David Brynmor (Swansea

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Atherley Jones, L.

  Lambert, George

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Langley, Batty

  Soames. Arthur Wellesley

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Layland Barratt, Francis

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Brigg, John

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Spencer, Rt Hn C.R (Northants)

  Caldwell, James

  Levy, Maurice

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Causton. Richard Knight

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Taylor, Theodore C (Radcliffe)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Lough, Thomas

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen ,E.)

  Chanmong, Francis Allston.

  M'Crae, George

  Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Thomas, JA (Glamorgan, Gower

  Crewer, William Randal

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Moss, Samuel

  Tomkinson, James

  Davie, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Newnes, Sir George

  Toulmin, George

  Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan

  Norman, Henry

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Edwards, Frank

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Weir James Galloway

  Elibank, Master of

  Partington. Oswald

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Evans, Samuel T (Glamorgan)

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Fernwick Charles

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Whiteley, George(York, W. R.)

  Gladstone, Rt Hn. Herbert John

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Whitley J. H (Halifax)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Price, Robert John

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Grant. Corrie

  Priestley, Arthur

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.

  Griffh Ellis J.

  Rea, Russell

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W R.)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Harmsworth. R. Leicester

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Hayne Rt Hon Charles Seale

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Hayter, Rt. Hon St Arthur D.

  Runciman, Walter

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Samuel, Herbert L (Cleveland)

  Mr. Wason and Mr.

  Horniman Fredcrick John

  Shaw. Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Duncan.

  Amendment proposed—
  "In page6, lines 38 and 39, to leave out the words, 'which has power to adopt or has adopted, Part III. of this Act.'"—(Sir William Anson)

  AYES.

  Allen Charles P. (Glouc Stroud

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Shaw. Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Ashton Thomas Gair

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Atherley-Jones, L

  Loambert, George

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Langley, Batty

  Scants, Arthur We1lesley

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Layland-Barratt. Francis

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Brigg John

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Spencer, Rt Hn C.R (Northants

  Caldwell, James

  Levy, Maurice

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe

  Cawley, Frederick

  Lough, Thomas

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E)

  Charming, Francis Allston

  M'Crae, George

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Cram, Robert Hunter

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Thomas JA. (Glamorgan, Gower

  Cromer, William Randal

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Moss, Samuel

  Tomkmson, James

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Newnes, Sir George

  Toulmin. George

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

  Norman. Henry

  Trevelyan, Charles Philip

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Nussey. Thomas Willans

  Wason Eugene

  Edwards, Frank

  Partington, Oswald

  White George (Norfolk

  Elibank, Master of

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  White, Luke (York. E. R.)

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Whiteley. George (York, W.R.)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Whitley, J. H (Halifax

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn Herbert, John

  Price, Robert John

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Goddard. Daniel Ford

  Priestley, Arthur

  Wilson. Fred. W (Norfolk, Mid

  Griffith Ellis J.

  Rea, Russell

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Gurdon. Sir W. Brampton

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Wilson, John (Durham. Mid.

  Harmsworth. R. Leiceser

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Hayne, Rt Hon. Charles Seale

  Roe. Sir Thomas

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Runciman, Walter

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Samuel. Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Mr. Weir and Mr. Corrie

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Shaw. Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Grant.

  (1. 18.) Question put. "That the words' proposed to belet out stand part of the o leave out the Clause."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 85; Noes, 187. (Division List No. 520.)

  NOES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Garfit, William

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(TrH'mlets

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Arrol, Sir William

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Nolan, Col., John P. (Galway, N.

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  O'Doherty, William

  Bain, Colonel dames Robert

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Balcarres, Lord

  Greene, Sir EW (B'ry S. Edm'nds

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Lees

  Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.)

  Percy, Earl

  Balfour, Kenneth R.

  Gretton, John

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Groves, James Grimble

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Bignold, Arthur

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Purvis, Robert

  Bigwood, James

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Handles, John S.

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Hamilton Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  Rankin, Sir James

  Bond, Edward

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'd

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Ratcliffe, R. F.

  Bowles Capt. H.F.(Middlesex)

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Brown, Alexander H.(Shropsh.)

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Renwick, George.

  Brymer, William Erest

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Bull, William James

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Hope, J.F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Roberts-on, Herbert (Hackney)

  Butcher. John George

  Howard. John (Kent, Faversh'm

  Ropier, Colonel Robert

  Carlile, William Walter

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire

  Kemp, George

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J.A (Worc.

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Sinclair, Louis (Rumford)

  Chapman, Edward

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T, (Denbigh)

  Smith, Abel H(Hertford, East)

  Charrington, Spencer

  Keswick, William

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (O mskirk

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Knowles, Lees

  Stanley Edward, Jas. (Somerses

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'tn

  Stock, James Henry

  Collings, Rt Hon. Jesse

  Lawrence, Wm. E. (Liverpool)

  Stroyan, John

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Lawson, John Grant

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Talbot, Rt Hn. J.G, (Oxf'd Univ.

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Thompson, Dr EC (Monagh'n, N

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Lockie, John

  Tomlinson, Sir William Edw. M

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Take, Sir John Batty

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

  Long, Rt Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Valentia, Viscount

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Lowe, Francis William

  Vincent, Col. Sir CEH (Sheffield

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H

  Doughty, George

  Lucas, Reginald, J (Portsmouth

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Welby, Lt-Col A. C. E. (Taunton

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  M'Arthur. Charles (Liverpool)

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Duke, Henry Edward

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Whiteley, H (Ashton-und. Lyne

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Malcolm, Ian

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Massey. Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Maxwell, WJH (Dumfriesshire

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Finch, George H.

  Milvain, Thomas

  Wylie, Alexander

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Fisher, William Hayes

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Fison, Frederick William

  Morgan, David J (Walth'mstow

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Morrell, George Herbert

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Sir Alexander Acland

  Forster, Henry William

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S.W

  Mount, William Arthur

  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 6, line 43, to leave out the words from the word ' Act,' to the end of the Clause, and to add the words, ' and in that case the powers and duties of the authority under this
  1008
  Act shall cease, and the area of the authority' if the powers and duties relinquished include powers as to elementary education, shall as respects those powers and duties be part of the area of the County Council.'"—(Sir William Anson.)
  (1.27.) Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

  AYES.

  Allen, Chas. P. (Glouc., Stroud)

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Atherley. Jones, L.

  hones, David Brynmor (Swansea

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Lambert, George

  Spencer, Rt Hn.C. R. (Northants

  Beaumont, Wentworth, C. B.

  Langley, Batty

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Brigs, John

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Cahlwell, James

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Levy, Maurice

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Thomas, J.A (Glamorg'n, Gower

  Channing, Francis Allston

  M'Crae, George

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Tomkinson, James

  Cremer, William Randal

  Moss, Samuel

  Toulmin, George

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Newnes, Sir George

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Norman, Henry

  Wagon, Eugene

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Weir, James Galloway

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-shire

  Nussey, Thomas Wilkins

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Partington, Oswald

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Edwards, Frank

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Whiteley, George (York, W.R.)

  Elibank, Master of

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Pixie, Duncan V.

  Whittaker. Thomas Palmer

  Fenwick, Charles

  Price, Robert John

  Wilson Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Priestley, Arthur

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Grant, Corrie

  Rea, Russell

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  TELLERS FOR TOE AYES—

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale

  Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)

  Mr. Soares and Mr.

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Charles Morley.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  NOES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Gretton, John

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Groves, James Grimble

  Arrol, Sir William

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  Balcarres, Lord

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'x

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

  Hare, Maims Leigh

  Balfour, Rt Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fired Dixon

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Bignold, Arthur

  Doughty, George

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Bigwood, James

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Bond, Edward

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Hope, J.F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Darning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Howard, John (Kent. Faversham

  Bowles, Capt. H. E. (Middlesex

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Brown, Alex. H. (Shropshire)

  Fellowes, Hon Ailwyn Edw.

  Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Fielden. Edward Brocklehurst

  Kemp, George

  Bull, William James

  Finch, George H.

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Butcher, John George

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Keswick, William

  Carlile, William Walter

  Fison, Frederick William

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edw. Algernon

  Knowles, Lees

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Law, Andrew Bonar. (Glasgow)

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Forster, Henry William

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)

  Foster, PhilipS. (Warwick, S.W

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Ceil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Lawson, John Grant

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J.A. (Worc.

  Garfit, William

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Chapman, Edward

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Charrington, Spencer

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rHmlets

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Lockie, John

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Greene, Sir EW (B'ry S Edm'nds

  Long, Rt Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 81; Noes, 183. (Division List No. 521.)

  Lowe, Francis William

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Stock, James Henry

  Lowther, C. (Crumb., Eskdale)

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Stroyan, John

  Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth

  Percy, Earl

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  M'Arthor, Charles (Liverpool)

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Thompson, Dr EC (Monagh'n, N

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Purvis, Robert

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Randles, John S.

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Malcolm, Ian

  Rankin. Sir James

  Valcntia, Viscount

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F.

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. H.

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfries-sh

  Ratcliff, R. E.

  Warde, Colonel C, E.

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Welby, Lt-Col. A.C. E (Tannt'n

  Milvain, Thomas

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Renwick, George

  Whiteley, H (Ashtonund Lyne

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Ritchic, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Morgan Davod J. (Wraith 'mst'w

  Robert, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Willson, A. Stonley (York, E.R.

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Roberts, Herbert (Hackney)

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Ropier, Colonel Robert

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Morton. Arthur H. Aylmer

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Mount, William Arthur

  Stickville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Wylie, Alexander

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute

  Seely, Maj. J.E.B. (Isle of Wight

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Smith, Abel H (Hertford, East)

  Nicholson. William Graham

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Nicol, Donald. Ninian

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Hood and Mr. Anstrather.

  O'Doherty, William

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  (1.38.) Question put, "That those words be there added."

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield ,Brightside

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

  Howard John (Kent, Faversh'm

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfeld

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Arrol, Sir William

  Doughty, George

  Hudson George Bickersteth

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir James

  Balcarres, Lord

  Duke Henry Edward

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Durning Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Talton

  Keswick, William

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants W,

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Bignold, Arthur

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Knowles, Lees

  Bigwood, James

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Finch, George H.

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Finlay, Sir Robert, Banatyne

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Bowles, Capt. H. F.(Middlesex)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lawson, John Grant

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Fison Frederick William

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Legh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Lockie, John

  Bull, William James

  Forster, Henry William

  Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick S.W.

  Long, Rt Hn Walter (Bristol, S.

  Butcher, John George

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Lowe, Francis William

  Carlile, William Walter

  Garfit, William

  Lowther, C. (Comb. Eskdale)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Gordon, Maj Evans. (TrH'iurt s

  Maedima, John Cumming

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Goschen Hon George Joachim

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire

  Goulding Edward Alfred

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Malcolm. Ian

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn J. A (Worc.

  Greene, Sir E.W (B'ry S Edmds

  Massey Mainwaring Hn W.F.

  Chapman, Edward

  Greene, W. Raymund-(Cambs.

  Maxwell, WJH (Dumfriesshire

  Charrington, Spencer

  Gretton, John

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Clare, Octavous Leigh

  Groves, James Grimble

  Milvain, Thomas

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropsh.)

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord (Midd'x

  Morgan, D. J. (Walthanistow)

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Merrison, James Archibald

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick

  Morton. Arthur H. Aylmer

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Hay, Hon. Claude George Geo.

  Mount, William Arthur

  Crossley. Sir Savile

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 176; Noes, 81. (Division List No. 522)

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Roberts. Samuel (Sheffield)

  Take, Sir John Batty

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Valentia Viscount

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Vincent,Col. Sir CEH(Sheffield

  Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway,N.

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Wairond.Rt Hn.Sir Willam H.

  O'Doherty William

  Saukville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Sadler, Col, Samuel Alexander

  Welby,Lt.-Col. A. C.E(Taunton

  Palmer, Walter(Salisbury)

  Seely, Maj.J.E B.(IsleofWight

  Wharton, Rt, Hon. John Lloyd

  Parke, Ebenezer

  Smith, Abel H.(Hertfard, East)

  Whiteley H(Ashton und, Lyne

  Percy, Earl

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Pretyman, Ernest, George

  Stanley,HonArthur(Ormskirk

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Purvis Robert

  Sta y,EdwardJas.(Somerset

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Randles, John S.

  Stanley. Lord (Lancs.)

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Rankin, Sir James

  Stock, James Henry

  Wylie, Alexander

  Rasch Major Frederic Carne

  Stroyan, John

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Ratcliff, R.F.

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hadley

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Remnant James Farquharson

  Thompson,Dr EC(Monagh'n, N

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Renwick, George

  Tomlinson. Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Sir Alexander Acland

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  NOES

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Athe ey, Jones, L.

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Bayley Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Lambert, George

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Langley, Batty

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Brigg, John

  Layland-Burratt, Francis

  Spencer, RtHn. (Northants

  Caldwell, James

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Levy, Maurice

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe

  Cawley, Frederick

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Channing, Francis Allston

  M'Crac, George

  Thomas,J.A(Glamorgan, Gower

  Craig, Robert, Hunter

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Thomson, F. W.(York, W. R.)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Morley, Chares (Breconshire)

  Tomkinson, James

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Moss, Samuel

  Toulmin, George

  Davies, Alfred, (Carmarthen)

  Newnes Sir George

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Davies M. Vanghan-(Cordigan

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Watson, Eugene

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Nusey, Thomas Willans

  Weir, James Galloway

  Dunman, J. Hastings

  Partington, Oswald

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Edwards, Frank

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Elibank, Master of

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Whiteley, George (York,W. R.)

  Evans, Samuel T. (Girmorgan)

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Whitley, J.H. (Halifax)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Price, Robert John

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Gurdstone, Rt. Hn. HerbertJohn

  Priestley, Arthur

  Wilson,Fred.W.(Norfolk.Mid

  Grant, Corrie

  Rea, Russell

  Wilson, Henry J.(York,W. R.

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Roe. Sir Thomas

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Runciman, Walter

  TELLERS FOE. THE NOES—

  Hayter, Rt Hon.Sir Arthur D

  Samuel, Herbert L. Cleveland

  Mr. Allen and Air Mr.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford)

  Goddard.

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  (1.48.) Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Bowles, Capt. H F. (Middles'x

  Chapman Edward

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Charrington, Spencer

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Brown Alexander H.(Shropsh.

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Arrol, Sir William

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Bull, William James

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Balcarres, Lord

  Butcher, John George

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Carlile, William Walter

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow

  Balfour, Rt HnGerald W.(Leeds

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw.H

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Bignold, Arthur

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Bigwood, James

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Blundell Colonel Henry

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Dalrymple Sir Charles

  Boseawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Chamberlin RtHnJ.A (Worc

  Davies, Sir HoratioD(Chatham

  The Committee divided:— Ayes, 178; Noes, S3, (Division List No. 523.)

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Rankin, Sir James

  Doughty, George

  Knowles, Lees

  Hasch, Maior Frederic Carne

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

  Ratcliff,R. F.

  Doxford, Sir Willam Thedore

  Lawrence,Sir Joseph(Monm'th

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Lawson, John Grant

  Renwick, George

  Egerton, Hon A. de Tatton

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants., W.

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Lockie, John

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Finch, George H.

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Long,Col.CharlesW.(Evesham

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Long,Rt. Hn.Walter(Bristol,S.

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Fison, Frederick William

  Lowe, Francis William

  Seely Maj.J.E.B. (Isle of Wight

  Fitzroy, Hon. EdwardAlgernon

  Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)

  Smith,Abel H.(Hertford, East)

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Lucas,Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Forster, Henry William

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Foster, PhilipS. (Warwick,S. W

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Stanley, Hon Arthur (Ormskirk

  Galloway, William Johnson

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Stanley, EdwardJas. (Somerset

  Garfit, William

  Majendie James A. H.

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Malcolm, Ian

  Stock, James Henry

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets

  Massey-Mainwaring,Hn. W. F.

  Stroyan, John

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Milvain, Thomas

  Thompson, Dr EC (Mornagh'n, N

  Greene, SirEW(B'ryS.Edmn'ds

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm Edw. M.

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Gretton, John

  Morgan, DavidJ (Walth'mstow

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Groves, James Grimble

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Valentia, Viscount

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Vincent, Col. SirCEH(Sheffield

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Walrond, Rt. Hn.SirWilliamH.

  Hardy, Laurence(Kent,Ashf'rd

  Mount, William Arthur

  Warde, Cohmel C. E.

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Welby,Lt -Col A.C.E.(Taunton

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Murray,RtHn A. Graham(Bute

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Whiteley, H (Asliton-und-Lyne

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Wilson,A. Stanley (York, E.R.

  Hope, J.F. (Sheffield,Brightside

  Nolan,Col. John P. (Galway,N.)

  Wilson, John (Glasgow

  Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm

  O'Doherty, William

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Hozier, Hon. James HenryCecil

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Wylie, Alexander

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Kemp, George

  Percy, Earl

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. SirJohnH.

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

  Purvis, Robert

  Sir Alexander Acland

  Keswick, William

  Handles, John S.

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther

  NOES.

  Allen, CharlesP.(Glonc.,Stroud

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Harmsworth, R, Leicester

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Price, Robert John

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Hayter,Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Priestley, Arthur

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Heinle, Norval Watson

  Rea, Russell

  Brigg, John

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Rickett, J, Compton

  Caldwell, James

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Jones, David Brymnor(Sw'nsea

  Runciman, Walter

  Cawley, Frederick

  Lambert, George

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland

  Channing Francis Allston

  Langley, Batty

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Levy, Maurice

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Duncan, J. Hastings.

  M'Crae, George

  Spencer,Rt. Hn.C.R(Northants

  Edwards, Frank

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Elibank, Master of

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Moss, Samuel

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Newnes, Sir George

  Thomson, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Gladstone, Rt Hn. HerbertJohn

  Norman, Henry

  Tomas,J A (Glamorgan, Gower

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Grant, Corrie

  Partington, Oswald

  Tomkinson, James

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Toulmin, George

  1016

  1017

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Wason, Eugene

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Weir, James Galloway

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES —

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Wilson,Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.

  Mr. Herbert Roberts and

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Wilson, Henry J. (York,W.R.)

  Mr. Cremer.

  Clause 16:—
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 7, lines 10 and 11. to leave out the words, as respects a Provisional Order constituting an Eeducation Committee.'"—(Sir William Anson.)

  AYES.

  Allen, Charles P. (Glone., Stroud

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Lambert, George

  Spencer,RtHn C. R. (Northants

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Langley, Batty

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Brigg, John

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Caldwell, James

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen,E.)

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Levy, Maunice

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Thomas,J A(Glamorgan,Gower

  Channing, Francis Allston

  M`Crae, George

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Tomk nson, James

  Cremer, William Randal

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Toulmin, George

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Moss, Samuel

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Newnes, Sir George

  Wason, Eugene

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Weir, James Galloway

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Philipps, John Wynford

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Edwards, Frank

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Whiteley, George (York ,W. R.)

  Elibank Master of

  Price, Robert John

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Priestley, Arthur,

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Fenwick, Charles

  Rea, Russell

  Wilson, Fred.W.(Norfolk,Mid.

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn.HerbertJohn

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Wilson, Henry J. (York,W. R.)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Grant, Currie

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Runciman, Walter

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Mr. Humphreys Owen and

  Rayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)

  Captain Norton.

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  NOES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Cecil, Evelyn (Ashton Manor)

  Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. JA (Worc.

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Chapman, Edward

  Finch, George H.

  Arrol, Sir William

  Charrington, Spencer

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Fison, Frederick William

  Balearres, Lord

  Cochrane, Hon. ThomasH. A. E.

  Fitzroy, Hrs. Edward Algernon

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Balfour, Rt. Hn GeraldW.(Leeds

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Forster, Henry William

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Foster, PhilipS. (Warwick,S.W

  Bignold, Arthur

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Garfit, William

  Bigwood, James

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Godson, Sir Augustus Fredrick

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Gordon,Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets

  Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex)

  Cubitt, Hon Henry

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Brookfield, Colonel Montague

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Brown, Alexander H.(Shropsh.

  Davies,Sir HoratioD.(Chatham

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Greene,Sir E W (B'ry S. Edm'ds

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Doughty, George

  Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.)

  Butcher, John George

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Gretton, John

  Carlile, William Walter

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Groves, James Grimble

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Darning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Ld. G (Midd'x

  Cavendish, V. C. W(Derbyshire

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants,W.)

  Hardy, Laurence(Kent,Ashf'rd

  (1.59.) Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 81; Noes, 173. (Division List No. 524.)

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Maxwell, W.J H(Dumfriesshire

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (I. of Wight

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Milvain, Thomas

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Moon, Edward. Robert Pacy

  Smith James Parker (Lanarks

  Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropsh.)

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Howard, John(Kent. Faversh'm

  Morgall, DavidJ (Walthamsto

  Stanley, Hon Arthur(Ormskirk

  Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

  Morell, George Herbert

  Stanley, Edward, Jas. (Somerset

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Stock, James Henry

  Kemp, George

  Mount, William Arthur

  Stroyan, John

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Murray, RtHnA. Graham(Bute

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Muarray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Thompson, Dr. EC(Monagh'nN

  Keswick, William

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Knowles, Lees

  O'Doherty, William

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Valentia, Viscount

  Lawrence, Sir. Joseph (Monm'th

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Vincent, Col. Sir CEH (Sheffield

  Lawrence, Wm. E (Liverpool)

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Walrond, Rt Hn. Sir William H.

  Lawson, John Grant

  Percy, Earl

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Welby, Rt.-Col ACE(Taunton)

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Purvis, Robert

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

  Lockie, John

  Randles, John S.

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Rankin, Sir James

  Wilson,A. Stanley (York ,E. R.)

  Long, Col. CharlesW.(Evesham

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol S.

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon.C.B.Stuart-

  Lowe, Francis William

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Renwick, George

  Wylie, Alexander

  Lucas, ReginaldJ.(Portsmouth

  Ritcnie, Rt. Hon.(Chas.Thomson

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Sir Alexander Acland

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Royds, Clement, Molyneux

  Hood and

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hon. W. F

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Mr. Anstruther.

  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 7, line 18, to leave out the word but,' and insert the words, ' and any such scheme or any Provisional Order made for the purposes of such a scheme.'"—(Sir William Anson.)

  AYES

  Allen, Chas. P. (Glonc., Stroud

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Humphreys-Owen,Arthur C.

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Jones, David Brynmor (Sw'nsea

  Snaffles, Arthur Wellesley

  Brigg, John

  Lambert, George

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Caldwell, James

  Langley, Batty

  Spencer, RtHn.C.R.(Northants

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Cawley, Frederick

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Levy, Maurice

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Thomas, JA(Glamorgan,Gower

  Cremer, William Randal

  M'Crae, George

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Tomkinson, James

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Moss, Samuel

  Wason, Eugene

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Newnes, Sir George

  Weir, James Galloway

  Edwards, Frank

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Elibank, Master of

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Whiteley, George (York, E. R.)

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Price, Robert John

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Gladstone, Rt Hn. Herbert John

  Priestley, Arthur

  Wilson, Fred. W.(Norfolk,Mid.

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Pea, Russell

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

  Grant, Corrie

  Rickett, J Compton

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Griffih, Ellis J.

  Roberts, John (Denbighs.)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Runciman, Walter

  Mr. George White and

  Hayne, Rt Hon. CharlesSeale-

  Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)

  Mr. Toulmin.

  (2.10) Question put, "That the word 'but' stand part of the Clause."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 77; Noes, 172. (Division List No. 525).)

  NOES

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Garfit, William

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham(Bute.

  Ark wright, John Stanhope

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Arrol, Sir William

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Atkinson Rt. Hon. John

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Nolan Col. John P.(Galway, N.)

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Greene, sirEW (B'ryS Edm'nds

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Balcarres, Lord

  Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.)

  O'Dolterty, William

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hurnsey)

  Gretton, John

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Balfour, Rt Hn Grald W(Leeds

  Groves, James Grimble

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Balfour, Kenneth (Christch.

  Guest, Hon Ivor Churchill

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Bignold, Archur

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Percy, Earl

  Bigwood, James

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord. G(Midd'x

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Purvis, Robert

  Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Bandies, John S.

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Rankin, Sir James

  Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Bryme, William Ernest

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Bill, William James

  Flope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm

  Renwick, George

  Butcher, John George

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Ritchie, Rt Hon. Chas. Thomson

  Carlile, William Walter

  Hud on, George Bickersteth

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Carson, Rt. Hun. Sir Edw. H.

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Kennaway, Hon. Sir John H.

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Cavendish, P. F. (N. Lancs)

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbyshire

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh)

  Saukville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Keswick, William

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexandra

  Chamberlain Rt HnJ.A(Worc.

  King, Sir Henry, Seymour

  Seeley, Maj.J E B(Isle of Wight

  Chapman, Edward

  Knowles, Lees

  Smith, Abel H(Hertford, East)

  Charrington, Spencer

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Smith, James Parker (Lanark.)

  Clare, Octavins Leigh

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph(Monm' th

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur(Ormskirk

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Lawson, John Grant

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

  Corbett, A Cameron(Glasgow)

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Stock, James Henry

  Cox, Irwin, Edward Bainbridge

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Stroyan, John

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Lockie John

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Thompson, Dr EC(Monagh'n,N

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Long, Col. Charles W (Evesham

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Davies, Sir HoratioD. (Chatham

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol ,S

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Lowe, Francis William

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Doughty, George.

  Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Vincent, Col. SirC. E. H (Shef'ld

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Walrond, Rt. Hn Sir William H.

  Duke, Henry Edward

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Darning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  M'Killop, James(Stirlingshire)

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C E(Taunton

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.

  Massey- Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Whiteley, H. (Asht'n und Lyne

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Maxwell, W.J. H. (Dumfriessh.

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Wilson, A. Stanley(York,E. R.)

  Finch, George H.

  MilVain, Thomas

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Fisher, William Hayes

  More, Robt. Jasper(Shropsinre)

  Wylie Alexander

  Fison, Frederick William

  Morgan, David J(Walth'mstow

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Fletcher, Et. Hon. Sir Henry

  Morrison, James Archibald

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Forster, Henry William

  Mount, William Arthur

  Sir Alexander Acland

  Foster, Philips. (Warwick, S. W.

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  (2.18.) Question put, "That the words, and any scheme or any provisional

  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 168; Noes, 75. (Division List No. 526.),

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Balcarres, Lord

  Arkwright , John Stanhope

  Bignold, Arthur

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Bigwood, James

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W(Leeds

  Arrol, Sir William

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Balfour, Kenneth R.(Christch.

  Order made for the purposes of such a scheme' be there inserted."

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Greene, Sir EW(WryS'Edm'nds

  Murray, Charles J. (Covent y)

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs)

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex)

  Gretton, John

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Groves, Janice Grimble

  Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway,N.)

  Brown, Alexander H (Shropsh.)

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  O'Doherty, William

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Bull, William James

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord(Midd'x

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Hardy, Laurence(kent, Ashf'rd

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Butcher John George

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Catlile, William Walter

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Purvis, Robert

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Hoare., Sir Samuel

  Randles, John S.

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lanes.)

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Rankin, Sir James

  Cavendish, V C W.(Derbyshire

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hope J.F(Sheffield, Brightside

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Chamberlain, Rt HnJ.A.(Worc

  Howard, John(Kent Faversh'm

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Chapman, Edward

  Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Charrington, Spencer

  Hudsn, George Bickersteth

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Royds, Clement. Molyneux

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Keswick, William

  Seely, Maj. E.J.(Isle of Wight,

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  king, Sir Henry Seymour

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Knowles, Lees

  Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.)

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Law, Andrew Bonar(Glasgow)

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Lawrence, Wm F (Liverpool)

  Stanley, Hon Arthur (Ormskirk

  Cubitt, Hon Henry

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph(Monin'th

  Stanley, Edward, Jas,.(Comerset

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Lawson, John Grant

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Davies, Sir Horatio D(Chatham

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Stock, Janie Henry

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Strovan, John

  Doughty, George

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Strutt Hon. Charles Hedley

  Douglas, Rt. -Hon. A. Akers

  Lockie, John

  Talbot, Lad E. (Chichester)

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Thompson, DrEC(Monagh'n N.

  Dake, Henry Edward

  Long, Col Charles W.(Evesham

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S.

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Lowe, Francis William

  Valentia, Viscount

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants. W.)

  Lowther, C. (Comb., Eskdale)

  Vincent, ColsirC.E.H(Sheffield

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Lucas, Reginald.(Portsm

  Walrond, Rt Hn. Sir William H.

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Finch, George H.

  M'Arthhur, Charles (Liverpool

  Welby, Lt-Col. A. C.E(Tannt'n

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  M'killop, James(Stirlingshire)

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Majendie, James A. H

  Whiteley, H (Ashton und Lyne

  Fison, Frederick William

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Willox Sir. John Archibald

  Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon

  Maxwell, WJH (Dumfriesshire

  Wilson, A. Stanley(York, E. R)

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Forster, Henry William

  Milvain Thomas

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Foster, Philips. (Warwick, SW.

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Wylie, Alexander

  Galloway, William Johnson

  More, Robt. Jasper(Shropshire)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Garfit, William

  Morgan, David. J.(Walth'mstow

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Gordon, Maj Evans(T'rH'mlets

  Morrison, James Archibald

  TELLERS TOR THE AYES—

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Mount, William Arthur

  Sir Alexander Acland

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Mowlway, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Murray, Rt Hn. A Grahanm(Bute

  NOES.

  Allen, Chas. P.(Gldone., Stroud.

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Fenwick, Charles

  M'Crae, George

  Atherley Jones, L.

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn Herbert John

  Markham Arthur Basil

  Brigg, John

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Caldwell, James

  Grand, Corrie

  Moss, Samuel

  Carleton, Richard Knight

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Newnes Sir George

  Cawley, Frederick

  Gurdon, Sir Wm, Brampton

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Charming, Francis Allston

  Hayne. Rt. Hon. Charles Scale

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Craig, Robert. Hunter

  Hayter, Rt Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Helme, Norval Wartson

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Honriman, Frederick John

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Price, Robert John

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea

  Priestley, Arthur

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Lambert, George

  Rea Russell

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Edwards, Frank

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Roberts, John H.(Denbighs.)

  Elibank, Master of

  Levy, Maurice

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  1024

  1025

  Runciman, Walter

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Samuel. Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Tomkinson, James

  Wilson. Fred. W (Norfolk, Mid.

  Shaw Thomas (Hawick, B.)

  Toulmin, George

  Wilson. Henry J (York, W. R.)

  Shipman. Dr. John G.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Wilson. John (Durham, Mid.)

  Sinclair, John (Forforshire)

  Wason, Eugene

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Weir, James Galloway

  Sares, Ernest J.

  White George (Norfolk)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Spencer. Rt. H.C. (Northants

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Mr. Charles Shaw and

  Thomas. Abel (Camimarthen, E.

  White. Luke (York, W.R.

  Mr. Batty Langley.

  Thomas, JA (Gla rg n, Gower

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 7, line 19, at the end to add the words 'as a scheme for establishing an Education Committee under this Act'"—(Sir William Anson.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Fitzroy, Hon Edward Algernon

  Maxwell. W J H (Dunfriesshire

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Flectcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Meysey-Thomson, Sir H. M.

  Arnold Forster, Hugh O.

  Forster, Henry William

  Milvain Thomas

  Arrol, Sir William

  Foster Philip S (Warwick, S.W.

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Galloway, William Johnson

  More, Robt, Jasper (Shropshire

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Garfit, William

  Morgan, David J.(Walth'mst'w

  Balcarres, Lord

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Balfour Capt. C.B (Hornsey)

  Gorden, Maj Evans-(T'rH'ml'ts

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerld W. (Leeds

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Mount, William Arthur

  Balfour, Kenneth R (Christch.)

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Bignold Arthur

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Mowbray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute

  Bigwood, James

  Greene, Sir E.W. (B'ry S Ed'mnds

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Boseawen, Arthur Grffith

  Grotton, John

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Bowles Capt H.F.(Middlesex

  Groves, James Grimble

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N

  Brookfield, Colonel Mentagu

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  O'Doherty, William

  Brown, Alexander H.(Shropsh

  Guthire, Walter Murray

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Bull William James

  Hardy, Laurence(Ken, Ashf'rd

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Butcher, John George

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Percy, Earl

  Carlile William Walter

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Cautley Henry Strother

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Cavendish. R.F. (N. Lancs)

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Purvis, Robert

  Cavendish V.C.W. (Derbyshire

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Randles, John S.

  Cecil Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hope, J,F. (Shiffield, Brightside

  Rankin. Sir James

  Chamberlain Rt Hn JA (Worc'r

  Howard, John (Kent Faversh'm

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Chapman, Edward

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Charrington, Spencer

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Reid, James Farguharson

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge)

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Cochiane, Hon, Thos. H.A.E.

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Keswick, William

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Knowles, Lees

  Sackvile, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight)

  Cubitt, Hon Henry

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Smith, Abel H (Hertford, East)

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Lawson, John Grant

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

  Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Doughty, George

  Llewellyn, Even Henry

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Lockie, John

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Doxford Sir William Theodore

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Stanley, James Henry

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Stroyan, John

  Duming Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Lowe, Francis William

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Faber, Edmund B.(Hants, W.)

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Thompson, Dr, E C (Monagh'n, N

  Fellowe, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Thomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Finch, George H

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H (Sh'ffi'ld

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Majendie, James A.H.

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  Fison, Frederick William

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F.

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  (2.28.) Question put, "That those Words be there added."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 167; Noes, 75. (Division List No. 527.)

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C.E (Taunton

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES,

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Whiteley, H. (Ashen und. Lyne

  Wylie, Alexander

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  NOES.

  Allen, Charles P (Glouc., Stroud

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Humphr ys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Jones, David Brynmor (Sw'nsea

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Bayley, Thos (Derbyshire)

  Lambert, George

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Brigg, John

  Langley, Batty

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Caldwell, James

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Spencer. Rt Hn C. R. (Northants

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.

  Cawley, Frederick

  Levy, Maurice

  Thomas, JA (Glamorgan, Gower

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  M'Crae, George

  Tomkinson, James

  Cremer, William Randal

  Markham. Arthur Basil

  Toulmin, George

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Moss, Samuel

  Wason, Eugene

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Newnes, Sir George

  Weir, James Galloway

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Edwards, Frank

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Elibank, Master of

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Whiteley, George (York, W.R.

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Whaley, J. H (Halifax)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Price, Duncan V.

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Gladstone, Rt Hn Herbert John

  Price, Robert. John

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Priestley, Arthur

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Grant, Corrie

  Rea, Russell

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Mr. Henry J. Wilson and

  Hayter. Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Runciman, Waller

  Mr. Herbert Samuel.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  (2.43.) Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Groves, James Grimble

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Guest, Hem. Ivor Churchill

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Cranhorne, Viscount

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Arrol, Sir William

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Mlidd x

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'rd

  Bain, Col. James Robert

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Balcarres, Lord

  Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatbam

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Dinsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

  Doughty, George

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Balfour. Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Bignold, Arthur

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Bigwood, James

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Darning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton

  Bowies, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Kemp, George

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  Brown, Alexander H.(Shropsh.

  Fielden, Edward Brocklchurst

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Finch, George H.

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Bull, William James

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Keswick, William

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Knowles, Lees

  Butcher, John George

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Carlile, William Walter

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Lawrence, Sir. Joseph (Monm'th

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Forster, Henry William

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Cavendish, Rt. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Foster, Philip S (Warwick, S.W.

  Lawson, John Grant

  Cavendish, V.C. W, (Derbyshire)

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. A (Worc.

  Gordon, Maj Evans(T'rH'ml'ts

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Chapman, Edward

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Lockie, John

  Charrington, Spencer

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Long, Col Charles W, (Evesham

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Greene, Sir EW (B'ry S Edm'nds)

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

  Lowe, Francis William

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Gretton, John

  Lowther, C. (Cum., Eskdale)

  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 166; Noes, 71. (Division List No. 528.)

  Lucas, Reginald J(Portsmouth

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Percy, Earl

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Pierpoint, Robert.

  Thompson, Dr EC(Monagh'nN

  M'Killop, James(Stirlingshire)

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Purvis, Robert

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col Edward

  Massey-Mainwaring. Hn. W.F

  Rankin Sir James

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Maxwell, WJH (Dumfriesshire

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Valentia, Viscount

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Vincent, Col. Sir CEH(Sheffield

  Milvain, Thomas

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Walrond, Rt Hn. Sir William H.

  Moon. Edward Robert Pacy

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  More Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Welby, Lt -Col. A.C. E (Taunton

  Morgan, David J (Walthamst'w

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Ropner, Colonel Robert,

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-und Lyne

  Morrison, James Archilbald

  Royds, Clement Molynex

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Mount, William Arthur

  Sackville, Col S. G. Stopford

  Wilson, A. Stanley (Yord, E.R.)

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Murray, Charles J.(Coventry)

  Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

  Wylie, Alexander

  Nicholoson, William Graham

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Smith, Hon. W.F.D.(Strand)

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  O'Doherty, William

  Stanley, Lord (Lances.)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Stock, James Henry

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Stroyan, John

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  NOES.

  Allen, Charles P(Gloue, Stroud

  Jones, David Brynmor (Sw'nsea

  Shaw, Charles Edw (Staffford)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Lambert, George

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Langley, Batty

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Brigg, John

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Caldwell, James

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Levy, Maurice

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Spencer Rt. Hn. C. R. (Northants

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Cremer, William Randal

  M'Care George

  Thomas, JA (Glamorgan, Gower

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Markham, Arthur Basel

  Thomson, F.W. (York, W. R.)

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Tomkinson, James

  Dewar, John A. (Invernessish.

  Moss, Samuel

  Toulmin, George

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Norton, Captain Cecil William

  Wason, Eugene

  Edwards, Frank

  Nussey, Thomas Willians

  Weir, James, Galloway

  Elibank, Master of

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Gladstone, Rt Hn. Herbert John

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Price, Robert John

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Grant. Corrie

  Priestley, Arthur

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Runciman, Walter

  Mr. Samuel Evans and

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Samuel Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Mr. Trevelyan.

  Clause17:—
  (2.48.) Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill"

  AYES.

  Allen, Charles, P(Glouc., Stroud

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Edwards, Frank

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbt. John

  Levy, Maurice

  Brigg, John

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  M'Care George

  Caldwell, James

  Grant, Corrie

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Channing, Franics Allston

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Moss, Samuel

  Criag, Robert Hunter

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Pease J. A. (Saffron, Walden)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Phillips, John Wynford

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Jones David Brynmor (Swansea

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Lambert, George

  Price, Robert John

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Langley, Batty

  Priestley, Arthur

  The Committee divided:—Ayes 61; Noes.154. (Division List No.529)

  Rea, Russell

  Spares, Ernest J.

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Spencer, Rt. Hn C.R(Northants

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Thomas, JA(Glamorg'n Gower

  Wilson, Fred, W. (Norfolk, Mid

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Thomason, F.W.(York, W.R)

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.

  Runciman, Walter

  Tomkinson, James

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland

  Toulmin, George

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)

  Wason, Eugene

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Weir, James Galloway

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Mr. Samuel Evans and

  Somes, Arthur Wellesley

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Mr. Trevelyan.

  NOES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Foster, Philip S (Warwick, S.W

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Godson, Sir Augustus Fred'rick

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh. O.

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(TrH'ml'ts

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Arrol, Sir William

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Nicol, Donald Nurian

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Greene, Sir EW(B'ry S Edm'nds

  O'Doherty, William

  Balfour, Capt, C.B.(Hornsey)

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

  Orr-Eving, Charles Lindsay

  Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

  Gretton, John

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Chritch.

  Groves, James Grimble

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Bignold, Arthur

  Guthire, Walter Murray

  Percy, Earl

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Hamilton Rt Hn Lord G(Midd'x

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Boseawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Brookfield, Colonel, Montagu

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Purvis, Robert

  Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Rankin, Sir James

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Hoare. Sir Samuel

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Bull, William Ernest

  Hope, J.F (Sheffield's Brightside

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Bulland, Sir Harry

  Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm

  Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomas

  Butcher John George

  Hozier, John James Henry Cecil

  Roberts, Herbert (Hackney)

  Carlile. William Walter

  Jessel, Cap'ain Herbert Merton

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Kemp, George

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Cavendish, R.F(N.Lancs.)

  Kennedy, Partick, James

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh)

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Keswick, William

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn JA(Worc.

  Knowles, Lees

  Seely, Maj. J.E.B(Isle of Wight

  Chapman, Edward

  Law, Andrew Bonar(Glasgow)

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Charrington, Spencer

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Smith, Hon. W.F.D(Strand)

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Lawson, John Grant

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Stock, James Henry

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Leigh, Bennett, Henry Currie

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Colston, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Lockie, John

  Thompson, Dr. EC(Monagh'n N.

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Lowe, Francis William

  Vlentia, Viscount

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chath'm

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Walrond, Rt Hon Sir William H.

  Dimsdale, Sir Joeseph Cockfield

  Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth

  Warde, Colonel C.E.

  Doughty, George

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Welby, Lt-Col. A.C.E. (Tannt'n

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  M' Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  M'Killop, James (St lingshire)

  Whiteley, H (Ashton-und. Lyne

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Willox, Sir John Archiblad

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Maxwell, W J. H (Dumfriesshire

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Fellowas, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M

  Wylie, Alexander

  Fielden, Edward Blocklehurest

  Milvain, Thomas

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Finch, George H.

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Morgan, David J (Walthamst'w

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Morrall, George Herbert

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  Forster, Henry William

  Mount, William Arthur

  The CHAIRMAN left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again tomorrow.
  Mr. SPEAKER, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 16th October last, adjourned the House without Question put.
  Adjourned at Three o'clock, a.m.