HC Deb 12 November 1902 vol 114 cc851-6

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

MR. J. W. LOWTHER, (Cumberland, Penrith)

in the Chair.

Clause 1:—

Motion made and Question proposed—

"That Clause 1 stand part, of the Bill."

MR. DALZIEL (Kirkcaldy Burghs)

said that hon. Members were surely not to be called upon to discuss a Bill of this importance after twelve o'clock. He would not, in the ordinary course, have objected to that procedure, because the Bill had been practically accepted by the House; but on the last two or three occasions on which the Bill was before the House several Members were anxious to hear details as to how the money was to be expended, but tire Colonial Secretary was not in his place, and they had been waiting apparently in the unfounded hope that the right hon. Gentleman would be present to make explanations. He knew that the Government could insist on their technical right to take a Financial Bill after midnight, but surely a Bill which raised important questions of policy and administration should not be taken at that late hour. He appealed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he would not postpone the Bill so as to allow the Colonial Secretary to be present to discharge the duty for which he was paid by the House. He begged to move that the Chairman report progress.

Motion made, and Question proposed—

"That the Chairman do report Progress; and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Dalziel)

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. RITCHIE,), Croydon

said he was astonished at the attitude taken by the Hon. Member, who must know that the essence of this Bill was that it should be passed quickly.

MR. DALZIEL

Why does not the Minister concerned come and help you to pass it?

MR. RITCHIE

said that if his right hon. friend were present no question of policy in connection with South Africa could be raised at this stage of the Bill. It was most essential that this money should be voted by the House, and placed at the disposal of Lord Milner, and he hoped that the hon. Gentleman would not press his Motion.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 23; Noes, 115. (Division List No. 502.)

AYES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Cohen, Benjamin Louis Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Hare, Thomas Leigh
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Colston, Chas. Edw. H Athole Harris, Frederick Leverton
Allan, Sir William (Gateshead) Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Hay, Hon, Claude George
Anson, Sir William Reynell Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.
Ark wright, John Stanhope Craig, Robert Hunter Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Cranborne, Vicount Helder, Augustus
Arrol, Sir William Cripps, Charles Alfred Helme, Norval Watson
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Cultitt, Hon. Henry Henderson, Sir Alexander
Bailey James (Wahworth) Dalrymple, Sir Charles Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.
Bain, Colonel James Robert Davenport, William Bromley- Hickman, Sir Alfred
Baird, John George Alexander Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Hoare, Sir Samuel
Baldwin, Alfred Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.)
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. (Manch'r Denny, Colonel Holland, Sir William Henry
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds. Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. Hope, J.F. (Sheffield, Brightside
Balfour, Kenneth R. Christch. Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Horniman, Frederick John
Bell, Richard Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Doughty, George Hoult, Joseph
Bignold, Arthur Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil
Biggwood, James Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Hudson, George Bickersteth
Blundell, Colonel Henry Doxford, Sir-William Theodore Jacoby, James Alfred
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Duke, Henry Edward Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse
Bond, Edward Duncan, J. Hastings Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Darning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Johnstone, Heywood
Brigg, John Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart Kearley, Hudson E.
Broadhurst, Henry Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Kemp, George
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Eanlell, Sir T. George Kennedy, Patrick James
Brotherton, Edward Allen Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward King, Sir Henry Seymour
Brown, Alexander H (Shropsh.) Fenwiek, Charles Kitson, Sir James
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Langley, Batty
Bull, William James Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow
Bullard, Sir Harry Finch, George H. Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th
Burdett-Coutts, W. Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Lawson, John Grant
Burns, John Fisher, William Hayes Layland-Barratt, Francis
Burt, Thomas Fison, Frederick William Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareltam
Butcher, John George Fitzmanrice, Lord Edmund Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington
Buxton, Sydney Charles Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon Leigh, Sir Joseph
Caldwell, James Flannery, Sir Fortescue Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie
Cameron, Robert Flower, Ernest Leng, Sir John
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Forster, Henry William Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.
Causton, Richard Knight Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Levy, Maurice
Cautley, Henry Strother Gardner, Ernest Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham
Cawley, Frederick Gladstone, Rt Hn. Herbert John Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Goddard, Daniel Ford Lonsdale, John Brownlee
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Lough, Thomas
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Lowe, Francis William
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. Goulding, Edward Alfred Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J.A (Worc. Grant, Corrie Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)
Channing, Francis Allston Greene, Sir EW (B'ryS Edm'nds Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth
Chapman, Edward Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred
Charrington, Spencer Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) Macdona, John Cumming
Clare, Octayius Leigh Gretton, John Madver, David (Liverpool)
Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H.A.E. Groves, James Grimble Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.
Coghill, Douglas Harry Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)
M'Arthur William (Cornwall) Rankin, Sir James Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G. (Oxf'd Univ.
M'Care, George Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Taylor, Austin (East Toxeth)
M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) Ratcliff R.F. Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Markham, Arthur Basil Reid, James (Greenock) Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Mather, Sir William Remnant, James Farquharson Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Maxwell, WGH (Dumfriesshire Renshaw, Charles Bine Thomas, J. A (Glamoroan, Gower
Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Renwick, George Thompson, Dr E C (Monagh'n, N
Middlemore, John Throgmort'n Ritchie, Rt Hon. Chas. Thomson Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.
Mildmay, Francis Bingham Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) Tomkinson, James
Milvain, Thomas Roberts, John H. (Denbigh's.) Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M
Montagu, G.(Huntingdon) Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) Toulmin, George
More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose Robson, William, Snowdon Tritton, Charles Ernest
Morrell, George Herbert Roe, Sir Thomas Valentia, Viscount
Morrison, James Archibald Ropner, Colonel Robert Wallace, Robert
Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Round, Rt. Hon. James Wanklyn, James Leslie
Moss, Samuel Royds, Clement Molyneux Warde, Colonel C. E.
Mount, William Arthur Runciman, Walter Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C.E. (Taunton
Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. Rutherford, John Welby, Sir Charles G. E.(Notts.
Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander Wharton, Rt. Hon-John Lloyd
Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) White, George (Norfolk)
Murray. Col. Wyndham (Bath) Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) Whiteley, George York, W. R
Myers, William Henry Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles Whiteley, H (Ashton-und. Lyne
Nicholson, William Graham Shackleton, David James Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Nolan, Col. John P (Galway, N.) Sharpe, William Edward T. Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
O'Doherty, William Shaw, Charles Ed W. (Stafford) Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) Willox, Sir John Archibald
Palmer, George Wm. (Reading) Shipman. Dr. John G. Wilson, A. Stanley (York. E. R.)
Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Partington, Oswald Sinclair, Louis (Romford) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Paulton, James Mellor Skewes-Cox, Thomas Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Pearson, Sir Weetman D. Sloan, Thomas Henry Wilson, J. W. (Woreestersh. N.
Pemberton, John S. G. Smith, HC (North'mb, Tyneside Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
Percy, Earl Smith, James Parker Lanarks Wodehouse, Rt, Hn. E.R. (Bath)
Pierpoint, Robert Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Woodhouse, .Sir J T. (Huddersf'd
Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard Spencer, Rt Hn C. R.(Northants Wylie, Alexander
Pirie, Duncan V. Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Platt-Higgins Frederick Stock, James Henry Yoxall, James Henry
Plummer, Walter R Stone, Sir Benjamin
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Pretyman, Ernest George Start, John Humphry Napier Sir Alexander Acland-
Purvis, Robert Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Hood and Mr. Anstruther.
Randles, John S.
NOES.
Allen, Charies P. (Glouc., Stroud M'Kenna, Reginald Rigg, Richard
Cremer, William Randal Morley, Charles (Breconshire) White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Harmsworth, R. Leicester Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir
Lambert, George Philipps, John Wynford Edward Strachey and Mr.
Lloyd-George, David Price, Robert John Soares.
AYES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Leigh, Sir Joseph Roe, Sir Thomas
Brigg, John M'Kenna, Reginald Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Caldwell, James Markham, Arthur Basil Toulmin, George
Channing, Francis Allston Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.) Tully, Jasper
Cremer, William Randal O'Doherty, William Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Evans, Samuel T, (Glamorgan) Paulton, James Mellor
Goddard, Daniel Ford Pease, J.A. (Saffron Walden) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Pixie, Duncan V. Mr. Dalziel and Mr.
Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Price, Robert John Warner.
NOES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)
Anson, Sir William Reynell Doxford, Sir William Theodore Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth
Arkwright, John Stanhope Durning, Lawrence, Sir Edwin Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Egerton Hon. A. de Tatton Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Ellison
Bain, Colonel James Robert Fellowes, Hon. Anlwyn Edward MacIver, David (Liverpool)
Balcarres, Lord Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r Majendie, James A. H.
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Maxwell, WJH (Dumiriesshire
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Finch, George H. Milvain, Thomas
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.) Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.
Bigwood, James Fisher, William Hayes More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)
Blundell, Colonel Henry Fitzroy, Hon. Edward. Algernon Morgan, David. J. (Walth'mst'w
Bond, Edward Fletcher, Rt. Hon Sir Henry Morrell, George Herbert
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Forster, Henry William Morrison, James Archibald
Brassey, Albert Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond. Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Goulding, Edward Alfred Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Bullard, Sir Harry Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs. Pemberton, John S. G.
Burdett-Coutts, W. Gretton, John Purvis, Robert
Carlile, William Walter Hambro, Charles Eric Reid, James (Greenock)
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Hay, Hon. Claude George Remnant, James Farquharson
Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley Renwick, George
Cavendish, V.C W. (Derbyshire Helme, Norval Watson Ridley, Hon. M.W (Stalybridge
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Ritchie, Rt Hon. Chas. Thomson
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Hope, J.F. (Sheffield, Brightside Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Chapman, Edward Horniman, Frederick John Ropier, Col. Robert
Churchill, Winston Spencer Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R). Sandys, Lient.-Col, Thos. Myles
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Kennedy, Patrick James Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Keswick, William Smith, H.C (North'mb. Tyneside
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Cranborne, Viscount Layland-Barratt, Francis Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Davenport, William Bromley- Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G (Oxf'd Univ.
Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S. Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Long, Rt, Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. Thompson, Dr EC (Monagh'n, N
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Loyd, Archie Kirkman Thornton, Percy M.
Tomlinson, Sir Win. Edw. M. Wilson, J.W. (Worcestersh. N.) TELLERS FOR THE—
Valentia, Viscount Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) Sir Alexander Acland-
Warde, Colonel C. E. Wylie, Alexander Hood and Mr. Anstruther.
Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)
MR. DALZIEL

said that the right hon. Gentleman must he aware that the hon. Member for Dundee intended to raise several questions in regard to the Bill, but postponed them till the Committee stage.

(12.8.) Question put.

Question again proposed, "That Clause 1 stand part of the Bill."

MR. DALZIEL

said he did not intend to oppose the Bill, owing to the circumstances of the case; but he thought that the Government were not serving their own object or the interests of the House in asking hon. Members to sit and discuss matters of this important kind after twelve o'clock. They were in no way opposed to the principle of the Bill, which was the first in regard to South African affairs on which for many years there was a unanimous opinion. He asked the Government whether, if they got to the Committee stage tonight, they would postpone the Third Reading, so that hon. Members could get the information they desired.

MR. RITCHIE

said he should ask the House to take the Third Reading as soon as he possibly could. As he had already stated, it was essential that this Bill should pass quickly in order to place Lord Milner in funds.

MR. DALZIEL

asked if the right hon. Gentleman would take the Third Reading tomorrow. If so, he would not further press his motion.

MR. RITCHIE

Yes.

MR. DALZIEL

That is all I wanted.

Clauses 1 to 4 agreed to.

Schedules agreed to.

Bill reported, without Amendment; to be read the third time Tomorrow.