Commons Sitting of 6 November 1902

Preamble
The House met at Two of the clock.

IMPRISONMENT OF A MEMBER.
Mr. SPEAKERinformed the House that he had received the following letter relating to the imprisonment of a Member:—
"King's Bench Division,
"Ireland,
"November 5th, 1902.
"SIR,—I beg to inform you that on the 14th October a warrant was issued forth of the King's Bench Division of the High Court of Justice, Ireland, signed by me, for the arrest of Mr. William H. K. Redmond, Member of Parliament, for not complying with an order of the King's Bench Division, made by me and dated the 24th September, whereby he was ordered to enter into his own recongnisance and find sureties to be of good behaviour for a period named in the order, and in default to be imprisoned for six months, or until he should sooner comply with said order.
"Mr. Redmond was arrested yesterday under this warrant.
"I have the honour to be,
"Your obedient servant,
"GEORGE WRIGHT,
"Justice of the King's Bench Division,
"Ireland.
"To the Right Honourable
"W. C. GULLY, P. C.,
"The Speaker of the House Of Commons."

PETITIONS.
  CANADIAN CATTLE (IMPORTATION).
  Petition form Luton, for abolition of restriction; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES BILL.)
  Petition from Steppingley, against; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALER BILL.)
  Petitions for alteration: from Luton; and Cornwall; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petition in favour: from Hindley; Liverpool; and Southampton; to lie upon the Table.
  PREVENTION OF CORRUPTION IN TRAND.
  Petition from Luton, for legislation; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  SUPERANNUATION ACT. 1859.
  Copy presented, of Treasury Minute, dated 1st November, 1902 declaring that for the due and efficient discharge of the duties of the office of Professor of Agriculture in the Royal College of Science, Dublin, professional or other peculiar qualifications not ordinarily to be acquired in the Public Service are required [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  COLONIAL REPORTS (ANNUAL)
  Copy presented, of Colonial Report, No. 371 (St. Helena, Annual Report for 1901) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  AGRARIAN OTRAGES (IRELAND).
  Copy presented, of Return for the quarter ended 30th September, 1902 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  ARMY EXPENDITURE, 1902–3 (SOUTH AFRICAN WAR).
  Copy presented, of Statement showing approximately the revised amounts now required under the various Votes for Army Expenditure in view of the conclusion of peace in South Africa, as compared with the provision made in the Estimates submitted to Parliament, with explanation of the differences [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  CIVIL SERVANTS.
  Return ordered, "showing the total number of persons in the established Civil Service of the State on the 31st day of March, 1902, distinguishing those in each department of the Civil Service and Revenue Departments respectively."—(Mr. Gibson Bowles.)

  LONDON WATER AREA.
  Return ordered, "of Statement showing the population and rateable (and assessable) values of the boroughs and urban districts to be represented on the Water Board together with the same particulars relating to the boroughs, urban districts, and rural districts (or the parts thereof) within the Metropolitan Water Area which are either to be excluded from that Area or to be unrepresented on the Water Board; also the proportion which the population and the proportion which the population and the rateable value of each district bears to the total population, and the total

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  rateable value respectively of the whole of the proposed Water Area."—(Mr. Rea.)

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Trade Statistics.
  SIR GILBERT PARKER: To ask the President of the Board of Trade if the Government will consider the advisability of publishing yearly a compendium of trade within the Empire; and a summary of the world's trade.
  (Answered by Hr. Gerald Balfour.) The annual statistical abstracts of the United Kingdom, the Colonies, India, and foreign countries give a great deal of information bearing on the subject of the world's trade and of trade within the Empire. I will, however, consider whether it is possible, having regard to the demands upon the staff of the Department, to do something further in the direction desired by the hon. Member.

  Island of Lewis—Building Regulations.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Lord Advocate if he will state how many houses have been erected in the Island of Lewis, under the bye-laws as to the regulation of buildings which were made by the Lewis District Committee of the County Council of Ross and Cromarty, and approved by the Local Government Board in December, 1900.
  (Answered by Mr. Graham Murray.) I am informed that twenty-two houses have been erected under the bye-laws referred to by the hon. Member.

  Edgeworthstown Postmaster.
  MR. NANNETTI: To ask the Postmaster General if he would give the name, salary, and nationality of the sorting clerk and telegraphist appointed to the postmaster-ship of Edgeworthst own, and the number of applications received from Irishmen.
  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) I have appointed Air. W. H. Killinder, sorting clerk and telegraphist at Galway, to be postmaster of Edgeworthstown. His pay as sorting clerk and telegraphist is 38s. a week, and in addition he has a
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  suptervising allowance of 6s. a week. I know nothing of his nationality.

  Newbridge Postmaster.
  MR. NANNETTI: To ask the Postmaster General if the postmastership of Newbridge was advertised in the Post Office Circular in the ordinary way; if so, what was the date of the circular; and will he state the nature of the appointment held by the officer selected and his qualifications for a postmaster-ship.
  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) The vacancy was not advertised. The officer who was appointed to be postmaster was a lobby officer, who had also had long and varied experience in the Army post office in Soul h Africa.

  Dublin Sorting Office Staff.
  MR. NANNETTI: To ask the Postmaster General if he will state when it is intended to fill the vacancies existing in the supervising clerks and assistant superintendents' class in the Dublin sorting office; whether selections will be made from members of the Dublin staff; and if a circular has been issued to surveyors inviting applications for the positions from provincial officers.
  (Answered by Hr. Austen Chamberlain.) The question of filling the vacancies referred to is under consideration, and I hope that it will be settled very shortly. The claims of members of the Dublin staff to promotion will have the fullest consideration. No such circular as the hon. Member described has been issued.

  Salisbury Post Office Officials.
  MR. GODDARD: To ask the Postmaster General whether, in view of the decision that the relatives of supervising officers are not to be appointed to the same offices, he will state why a sorting clerk and telegraphist at Liverpool has been transferred to the Salisbury Post Office, at which town his father holds the position of postmaster.
  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) The officer in question has not been transferred to the Salisbury Post Office, nor is there any proposal to transfer him, but he has been allowed to exchange places for a period of four months with an officer employed at Salisbury.

  Poor Law Village Communities.
  SIR WALTER, FOSTER: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he can give the names of the unions in England and Wales which have established village communities, or grouped cottage homes, for Poor Law children; the number of children accommodated in each village community; and the inclusive cost per head per annum (both establishment and maintenance charges).
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) The following statement gives the names of the unions in which the guardians have provided or are providing accommodation of the kind referred to, with the number of children accommodated in each case. I have no information which would enable me to state the average cost per child per annum.

  Union.

  Number of Children.

  Aston

  288

  Birmingham

  460

  Bridgend and Cowbridge

  72

  Burnley

  150

  Chorlton

  326

  Christchurch

  72

  Croydon

  72

  Dewsbury

  72

  Elham

  66

  Gateshead

  182

  Greenwich

  524

  Hackney

  446

  Hunslet

  74

  Kettering

  60

  Kings Norton

  219

  Leicester

  256

  Liverpool

  288

  Luton

  30

  Medway

  180

  Merthyr Tydfil

  32

  Neath

  84

  New castle-on-Tyne

  190

  Pontypridd

  130

  Rochdale

  112

  St. Olaves

  570

  Salford

  304

  Sculcoates

  118

  Shoreditch

  416

  Stepney

  218

  Stoke-upon-Trent

  144

  Swansea

  120

  Thanet, Isle of

  120

  Wallingford

  45

  Warrington

  200

  West Derby

  650

  Wolverhampton

  240

  Woolwich

  300

  Worcester

  66

  Poor Law Officers' Superannuation.
  MR. MORRELL: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether, seeing that under the present working of the Poor Law Officers' Superannuation Act. 1896, the last union employing an officer has to pay the whole of his superannuation allowance without recovering any portion from the union or unions by whom the officer has bee previously employed, he will consider the propriety of the formation of a central fund for the receipt of all superannuation contributions and payment of all superannuation allowances, such fund being raised and worked on the principles of an insurance company.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) In answer to a similar Question a few weeks ago I stated that there would be many difficulties in adopting such a scheme as that suggested, and that I could not at present give any promise to propose legislation to give effect to it. I added, however, that the whole subject should receive my careful consideration.

  Navy—Firing Matches.
  MR. HARMSWORTH (Caithnessshire): To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he will explain the meaning or the Admiralty Regulation No. 901, when the match is burning, it is always to be over water in tubs, and in charge of a responsible person, and ,ay whether burning matches are still used in connection with any service pattern of gun now in use in the Royal Navy.
  (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster.) Though not now used in any service pattern of gun now in use in the Royal Navy, slow match is still supplied as part of the stores for use in manned and armed boats, for kindling fires, firing rockets, etc. The precautions laid down in the article quoted from the Admiralty Regulations are therefore still in force.

  India—Gold Remittances, Currency Reserves, etc.
  SIR EDWARD SASSOONTo ask the Secretary of State for India if he will state the amount of gold remitted from India since February this

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  year, and to what purposes these remittances have been applied; the sums of gold now held in India in the Currency Reserves, the Government Treasuries, and the Gold Reserve Fund respectively; whether any of the latter is deposited with the Presidency Banks or otherwise utilised in aid of commerce; the number of rupees (including value of subsidiary coins) issued since the beginning of this year; the total amount of silver imported during the same period, how much of this has been on Government account, and whether this portion is subject to the 5 per cent. import duty; the present amount of the cash balances in India and England respectively; and what has been, since 1st March, the average weekly amount lent out from the Indian Office Treasury in aid of the money market here.
  (Answered by Secretary Lord George Hamilton.) The amount of gold remitted by the Government of India to this country since February last is £500,000, which has been added to the balances held by the Secretary of State in Council. The amount of gold held by the Government of India on the 15th October was as follows: Currency Reserve, £5,748,000; Government Treasuries, £88,000; Gold Reserve Fund, £175,000; total, £6,011,000. I have no reason to believe that any of this gold is deposited with the Presidency banks. If it were so deposited it would, of course, be necessary to transfer from, the banks to the Currency Reserve or the Treasuries an equivalent amount in rupees, a course which, in all probability, would hinder commerce rather than aid it; but for a considerable time, whenever the mercantile community has desired gold in exchange for rupees, the Government of India has made its own stock freely available. The total coinage of silver in India from 1st April till 31st August, 1902, was Rs.7,38,63,606 (£4,925,000). But this includes the coinage of British dollars for use in Hong Kong and the Straits Settlements, the rupees coined for Native States, and the subsidiary coinage for use in British India. The rupees coined for Native States amounted to about Rs.80,00,000; but I am not yet in possession of exact figures on this point. The imports of
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  silver into India during the period just mentioned were as follows: On private account, Rs.5,04,47,857; on Government account, Rs.51,830. It is provided by law that no customs duty is leviable on goods belonging to the Government of India. The latest figures for the cash balances in India and England are as follows: In India on the 31st of August, Rs.16,93,00,000; in England on the 5th of November, £5,062,228. The average weekly amount of loan from the Home Treasury during the present financial year has been. £5,100,000.

  Army Officers—Pay as Interpreters.
  MR. HALSEY: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether an officer gains any advantage, pecuniary or otherwise, by qualifying as interpreter.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) Under Article 614 of the Pay Warrant an officer gets a reward of £125 for qualifying as interpreter in Russian,. Arabic, or Turkish, and £75 on passing, a further test examination within the-next five years. Under Article 267 of the Pay Warrant an allowance is granted for employment as interpreter in the field.

  Officers Liability for Barrack Furniture.
  MR. HALSEY: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether officers have now to supply themselves with barrack furniture, or whether it is provided for them.
  (Answered by Air. Secretary Brodrick.) The quarters of all unmarried regimental officers who join the Army on or after the 1st December, 1902, will be furnished at the public expense. Officers' messes at home will be furnished when necessary as soon as possible after this date. A rent will be charged at the rate of 2d. per day for field officers, and ld. per day for other officers. All officers will pay a further 1d. a day where furniture is supplied to messes.

  South African War—Ranking of Volunteer Officers.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: To ask the Secretary of State

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  for War whether, seeing that several officers of the Militia have recently received Army rank for services with regular troops in the United Kingdom during the South African War, like consideration has been, or will be, extended to officers of Volunteers whose services were accepted under like conditions.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) It has already been decided to grant temporary rank to Volunteer officers serving at home, and steps are being taken to carry this out.

  War Office Works Department Committee.
  MR. BROADHURST: To ask the Secretary of State fur War whether the Report of the Departmental Committee on the reorganisation of the Works Department of the War Office has yet been made; and, if so, can he say when he proposes to commence the work of reorganisation, if any is recommended.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The Committee has reported, and the Report is being carefully considered.

  South Africa—Government Loans to Boers.
  Mk. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether loans granted to the Boers in the Harrismith district of South Africa are partly in money and partly in kind; if so, will he state what value is placed respectively on oxen and mules thus supplied; are the animals submitted to examination by a veterinary surgeon prior to the transaction being completed, and is a warranty given that they are sound.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Chamberlain.) Loans to Boers are made, as a rule, one-third in cash and two-thirds in kind, to ensure the re-stocking of the farms instead of money being applied to the payment of debts. The values placed on oxen and mules are the cost prices, so far as can be ascertained, without deductions for loss or cost of forage. The animals are not submitted for veterinary examination, but passed on to farmers in exactly the same condition as received from the military, all sick being
  266
  excluded. No warranty is given by the military on receipt of the animals by the Colonial Government, nor by the Government on transfer to the farmers.

  Education Bill — School Teachers and Membership of Municipal Bodies.
  MR. MANSF1ELDTo ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether, in the event of the Education Bill now before Parliament becoming law, school teachers will be precluded from becoming members of a County Council or members of the council of a county borough; and, if they are not precluded from the membership of these Councils, will they be allowed to serve on the new education authority.
  (Answered by Sir William Anson.) Teachers in schools provided by the local education authority will be clearly disqualified from being members of the County Council, Borough Council, or Urban District Council, which is the local education authority. This is the effect, as regards County Councils and Borough Councils, of Section 12 (a) of the Municipal Corporations Act, 1882, and Sections 2 and 75 of The Local Government Act, 1888; and, as regards Urban District Councils, of Section 46 (d) of the Local Government Act, 1894, which also applies to the London Borough Councils. It is clearly fair that teachers in schools not provided by the local education authority should be placed in the same position in this respect as teachers in schools provided by that authority.

(2.15.) QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  South Africa—Johannesburg Local Rates.
  MR TREVELYAN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the consent of the Governor of the Transvaal has been given or refused to the ordinance of the Johannesburg Town Council, proposing to raise the local rates on an assessment of the land values of the town.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN, Birmingham, W.): So far as I am aware the levying of rates in Johannesburg is at

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  present governed by the Administrator's Proclamation of the 13th June last, which I shall be glad to show to the hon. Member if he desires it and will call at the Colonial Office.

  The Colonial Conference.
  MR. LOUGH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies why the speeches of the Colonial Premiers delivered at the conference which took place at the Colonial Office are not given in the Blue-book which has been issued; and whether it is proposed to issue supplementary Papers giving full details of the proceedings.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I am obliged to the hon. Member for giving me an opportunity of contradicting some very extraordinary misstatements that appeared in a London daily paper. If he will refer to the first page of the Blue-book he will find the answer to his question. The fact is that the reason for not publishing a full report of the proceedings with the speeches of the Colonial Prime Ministers, was that objection was taken that it would be a breach of faith to publish what had been from the first treated as confidential. The Prime Ministers unanimously agreed that the speeches of the members of His Majesty's Government and certain Papers should be given. This has been done and no further Papers will be published.

  Army Commissions.
  CAPTAIN NORTON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he will consider the advisability of granting special facilities for promotion to commissions of those who, when serving as Militia Officers at the time that the granting of commissions without examination ceased resigned their commissions and enlisted in order to go on active service in South Africa, seeing that many of their brother officers who remained at home in the Militia obtained commissions before the close of the war without examination.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. BRODRICK, Surrey, Guildford): I am afraid that in view of the large number of supernumerary officers in the Army it will not be possible to grant any more direct commissions to any class of individuals.
  CAPTAIN NORTON: Is the right hon. Gentleman willing to grant some special facilities for these young men, who are very hardly treated?
  MR. BRODRICK: What does the hon. Gentleman mean by special facilities?
  CAPTAIN NORTON: A modified examination.
  MR. BRODRICK: We cannot modify the examination. We can only give service marks.

  Army Officers' Pay.
  LIEUTENANT-COLONEL TUFNELL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will consider the advisability of appointing a Committee to inquire into the position, pay, and allowances of the combatant officers of the Army.
  MR. BRODRICK: My hon. and gallant friend's suggestion would require to be supported by some reasons for instituting such an inquiry. No change has taken place in the position of officers in the Army of recent years, and the demand for commissions shows that it is impossible to satisfy the large number of candidates available. Efforts are being made, especially in the cavalry, to reduce officers' expenses, but I fear I cannot hold out any hope of a genera reconsideration of the pay and pensions of officers.
  LIEUTENANT-COLONEL TUFNELL: The Army pay of subaltern officers has been the same for the last hundred years, and: is quite inadequate to the position they are expected to maintain.

  Training of Recruits—Barrack Accommodation at Omagh.
  DR. THOMPSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether it is the intention of the Government to abolish the system of transferring the details of regiments from the depots of the territorial regiment to outlying barracks; whether this arrangement has been condemned by the military authorities; and whether he will consider the advisability of purchasing the disused gaol at Omagh, which could be used as barracks, and obviate the necessity of sending the details to Enniskillen.
  MR. ARCHDALE: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of sending more troops to Enniskillen, seeing that three of the finest regiments were raised there?
  MRd. BRODRICK: The arrangement to which the hon. Member alludes has not been condemned. It is in accordance with the principles of military administration to send recruits away from their depots as soon as their physical training is complete, in order that their field training may he taken up. There is no intention of increasing the barrack accommodation at Omagh.

  Army Re-enlistments—Age Regulations.
  MAJOR RASCH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War what is the limit of age for reenlistment of time-expired men.
  MR. BRODRICK: The limit of age is thirty years for ordinary Army re-enlistments, and forty years for the Royal Garrison regiment. There is no limit of age for the reservists rejoining the Colours under Special Army Order of 22nd September last.

  Employment of Reservists in Civilian Duties.
  MAJOR RISCH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, seeing that 80 per 1,000 of an average battalion are employed inn civilian duties, he will consider the advisability of trying the experiment tried in the Garrison Artillery of thus employing reservists in the Line.
  MR. BRODRICK: Efforts are being made to provide such relief as may be possible, but my hon. and gallant friend will recognise that any general change would cause immense expenditure.

  Naval Gunnery—Practice Ammunition.
  MR. HARMSWORTH (Caithness-shire): I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he is aware of any instances in the Navy of ammunition intended for practice firing being thrown overboard.
  THE SECRETARY To THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. ARNOLD-FORSTER, Belfast, W.): I have been unable to trace any instances of the practice referred to, at any rate in the last twenty years. If
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  such instances have occurred they are unknown to the Admiralty, but if the hon. Member will call my attention to any specific case it will be investigated.

  Boys and Able Seamen in the Channel Fleet.
  MR. HARMSWORTH: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what is the proportion of able seamen and boys in the Channel Fleet; and whether he will give the proportion of the two classes on board H.M.S. "Magnificent," and the number of ordinary seamen.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: The following is the proportion of able seamen amid boys in the Channel Fleet: Able seamen, 79; boys, 21. In H.M.S. "Magnificent" the two classes are in the proportion, of able seamen, 77: boys, 2:1. The number of ordinary seamen is 176, and if these were included in the calculation the proportion of seamen to boys in this ship would be 89½ to 10½, which is the same as the proportion of seamen to boys in the Channel Fleet as a whole.

  Brussels Sugar Convention.
  MR. LOUGH: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any communication has been received from the Belgian Government with regard to the Brussels Sugar Convention since that instrument was completed; whether any of the signatory Powers have so far decided to, or declined to, ratify the Convention; and whether any proposals have been made to extend the time for ratification.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Lord CRANBORNE, Rochester): The Belgian Government have communicated to us the announcement that the ratification of His Majesty the King of the Belgians has been deposited. No Power has declined to ratify, and we have no reason for anticipating that any of the Powers who signed will refuse to do so. The reply to the last part of the Question is in the negative.
  MR. LOUGH: Has any change been made in the date of the ratification?
  LORD CRANBORNE: Not that I am aware of.

  Ontario Bounties on Beet Sugar Exports.
  MR. LOUGH: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he will state the rate of the bounty paid by the Province of Ontario on the export of beet sugar; whether any of such sugar comes into the United Kingdom; and whether it is proposed to take any action in the matter in connection with the Brussels Sugar Convention.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR, Leeds, Central): No bounty is given by Ontario on the export of beet sugar. By an Act of 1901 a sum of £47,000 was set aside for the temporary payment of a bounty of ½ cent. per lb. on refined beet sugar produced during the first two years of a factory's operations, and of cent. per lb. on the product of the third year. The exports from Ontario are not separately stated, but no considerable quantity of sugar that benefited by the bounty can have come to the United Kingdom, since the total export of Canadian sugar (other than maple) to this country during 1901–2 was only sixty tons. Under the Brussels Sugar Convention it would be the duty of the Permanent Commission to examine and report to the Powers as to the existence of bounties in various countries. In no event, however, would His Majesty's Government be required to penalise the sugar of a British Colony.

  Macedonian Reforms.
  MR. STEVENSON: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the attention of the Foreign Office has been called to the statement made by Dr. Daneff, the Bulgarian Prime Minister, a few days ago, to the effect that all the Powers, with only one exception, were willing to demand the introduction of reforms into Macedonia, and were engaged in discussing the best means of intervention at the Porte; whether he has any information respecting this statement; and can he state which of the Powers are taking part in the negotiation.
  LORD CRANBORNE: I have seen the statement in the newspapers. His Majesty's Government have not received any report on the subject, and they have no information bearing out the statement mentioned.

  Losses through Foot and Mouth Disease.
  MR. ARCHDALE: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he can state the estimated amount of loss to British and Irish farmers by the last outbreak of foot and mouth disease due to importation of cattle from abroad, and the decrease in numbers in consequence of that outbreak.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE (Mr. HANBURY, Preston): I understand my hon. friend to refer to the epidemic of foot and mouth disease in Great Britain which lasted from 1880 to 1884, when it was practically stamped out. During that period some 336,000 cattle, 370,000 sheep, and 37,000 swine were reported as having been attacked with the disease, and it was estimated that the direct loss caused to stockowners could not have been less than £2,500,000.

  Transfer of Government Departmental Powers to County Councils.
  MR. PYM: I beg to ask the President of the local Government Board if he will state whether, under the Local Government (Transfer of Powers) Bill, powers of Government Departments could be transferred to a County Council in opposition to the views of the Departments or of the local authorities concerned.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. WALTER LONG, Bristol, S.): Under Section 10 of the Local Government Act, 1888, the Local Government Board can make Provisional Orders for transferring to the Councils of counties and county boroughs certain powers and duties of Departments of the Government and other bodies. This, however, can at present only be done generally. The object of the Bill is to enable the transfer to be made as respects the Council of a particular county or borough where the circumstances may render this desirable, without its being necessary to deal with the Councils of all the counties and counts' boroughs. The consent of the Government Departments or other bodies whose powers were proposed to be transferred would still be required, and the Order

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  would not take effect until it was confirmed by Parliament. Under the Bill particular cases could be met where there is no objection to the transfer on the part of the borough or other district Councils who would be affected. In the event of there being substantial opposition on the part of those Councils to the proposal, I should not contemplate making a transfer.

  Post Office and the Irish Language.
  MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether, in view of the complaints from Dr. Henry, of the Gaelic Association, London, as to the non-delivery for six or seven days, in the county of Sligo, of letters and postcards addressed in Irish, he will consider the advisability of insisting on persons obtaining Post Office appointments in Ireland having some knowledge of the Irish language.
  THE POSTMASTER GENERAL (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN, Worcestershire, E.): In my opinion there is no sufficient reason for requiring a knowledge of the Irish language from entrants into the Post Office service in Ireland.
  MR. TULLY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Irish language movement is a great and growing one, and not to be trifled with?
  [No answer was returned.]

  Lurgan Post Office.
  MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Postmaster General, whether he is aware that the postal and telegraphic business in Lurgan is carried on in temporary premises which are in a condition dangerous to health; and what steps have been taken to proceed with the erection of the new post office buildings on the site purchased two years ago.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: There is no reason to suppose that the temporary Post Office at Lurgan is in a condition dangerous to health of the contrary the health of the staff is stated to have improved considerably since the office was occupied. It is expected that the new building on the site w Inch was acquired in August, 1901, will be begun
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  next year, if the Board of Public Works obtain the necessary funds from Parliament.
  MR. TULLY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these temporary premises are simply a hoarding used for pasting up Crimes Act Proclamations?
  [No answer was returned.]

  Compensation for Malicious Damage.
  MR. SLOAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that at Sligo Quarter Sessions on 30th October last Mr. Robert Sproule was granted a decree for £6 for damage done to a mare, his property; and that it appeared from the evidence that the plaintiff could not get anyone to work for him because he was a Protestant and refused to join the United Irish League; and will he state what steps, if any, the Government intend taking in the matter.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY Foil IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHA M, Dover): Compensation was awarded, as stated, to Mr. Sproule, whose evidence was to the effect mentioned. The County Council has appealed, I understand, against the decision of the County Court judge, and I ant precluded, therefore, from discussing the case.

  Ballaghaderreen Publican's Licence.
  Mr. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been directed to the case of Mr. James Casey, Ballaghaderreen, who was refused a transfer of a publican's licence at the last Boyle Quarter Sessions; and whether, in view of the recommendation of the County Court Judge to the Lord Lieutenant to exercise his dispensing powers in this case, he can state what action will be taken in the matter.
  MR. WYNDRAM: No representations have been made to the Lord Lieutenant in this matter. If a recommendation of the character suggested were made, it would receive the attention due to the source from which it came. But I ought to observe that the number of public houses in this locality is already very large.

  Irish Local Government Contracts.
  MR. ARCHDALE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that on 19th July last the Longford Board of Guardians, on the Motion of the Chairman, decided to take no contracts except from members of the United Irish League, and that a similar motion was agreed to at the last meeting of the Sligo Rural District Council; and will he say what action he proposes to take in the matter.
  MR. ARCHDALE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, if the attention of the Local Government Board has been called to the action of Mayo County Council in giving the printing contract to Mr. Walshe, Ballina, at £140 5s., though Mr. Thomas Chapman, Athlone, tendered at £85; and will he say what action they propose to take.
  MR. ARCHDALE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that at the meeting of the Granard Board of Guardians, held to consider the half-yearly contracts, the secretary of the United Irish League Branch was in attendance with his list of members, and the names of those tendering were read out, and the preference in the contracts was given to those who appeared on the United Irish League list; and will he say whether he proposes to take action in the matter.
  MR. WYNDHAM: My attention has been called to the several matters mentioned in these Questions. I can best reply by saying that proceedings will be instituted by the Crown against all local bodies who, in breach of the public trust they are elected to discharge, endeavour to promote the pecuniary interests of any political society, or of the members of such a society. This being so, my hon. friend will, I think, agree with me that it is unnecessary to discuss the separate instances brought to my notice of a breach of the public trust.

  Irish Dispensary Medical Service.
  MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been
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  directed to the remarks of the president at the annual meeting of the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland, to the effect that the entire Irish dispensary medical service stood in need of reform; and whether it is the intention of the Government to promote legislation in this matter.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I have seen a newspaper report of the remarks of the President of the Royal College of Surgeons on the occasion referred to. The matters discussed by the President are not such as can properly be dealt with by means of a reply to a Question.

  Congested Districts Board—Sale of Lord Dillon s Mansion.
  MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state on what grounds the Congested Districts Board have advertised for sale the former mansion of Lord Dillon at Loughglynn; and why have the private offers been declined which were made to turn tins residence into a local technical and agricultural college.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The premises have been advertised for sale in pursuance of the Board's desire to obtain as large a price as possible for them. The Board has expressed its readiness to entertain favourably any proposal for applying the premises to a useful public purpose. But no definite proposal of that nature has so far been received, and no private offers have been declined.
  MR. TULLY: Why was the Roscommon offer refused?
  MR. WYNDHAM: No definite proposal has been made, and it has not been ref used therefore.
  MR. TULLY: If they apply for it will they get it?
  [No answer was returned.]

  Calderwood v. M'Curdy.
  MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been directed to the case of Calderwood v.

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  M'Curdy, heard at the Lifford Quarter Sessions, County Donegal, on 30th October last and whether, in view of the police evidence on the occasion, it is proposed to take any action under the Criminal Law and Procedure (Ireland) Act to secure the ends of justice in this matter.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Calderwood sued M' Curdy of £5 damages and assault on the ground that his hat had been forcibly taken form him. The judge gave a decree for £1 and indicated that, in his opinion, the matter might well have been settled out of Court.
  MR. TULLY: Did not the prosecution counsel stat that the Crimes Act should be applied to this case?
  MR. WYNDHAM: NO, Sir.

  Irish Poor Law Superannuation.
  MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether him attention has been directed to the unanimous resolution of Irish Poor Law Association in favour of a superannuation Bill on the basis of the liability of the ratepayers being limited to a national rate of a farthing in the pound; and whether he is prepared to afford facilities for the passing into law of a measure framed on these lines.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Yes, Sir. But I do not propose to introduce any fresh legislation doting this Session.

  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland Penrith) in the Chair.]
  Clause 12:—
  THE SECRETARY OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Sir WILLIAM ANSON, Oxford University), in moving the Amendment standing in Ins name, said ha did not desire to add much to the statement he made on the previous day as to the purport of this
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  Amendment, but he would remind the Committee that the object was to make it perfectly clear that the Municipal or County Council was the local education authority; that the Education Committee wits a consultative committee; that the local education authority was bound to consult the committee, but was not bound to take its advice, or even to wait for that advice, it the advice were delayed or not forthcoming; and that to meet the convenience of the educational work in an area the County Council had nearly unlimited power of delegating its duties to that committee, except in one very important respect, viz., the raising a rate or borrowing money. His hon. friend the Member for East Somerset proposed to strike out the words which would require the local education authority, before exercising its powers, to consider the report, if any, of its education committee. He thought it would, for general reasons, be undesirable to omit Secretary to the these words. He took it that his hon. friend was principally moved by fear last there should by any unnecessary delay in carrying out the educational work of the area. For his own part he thought the words "if any" guarded the local education authority against that contingency; and when matters were urgent the local education authority might proceed without the report of its committee. The powers of delegation which the Government proposed to give were very considerable, and, although at the outset of the scheme there might be difficulties and delays, yet the local education authority and its committee would soon learn what amount of delegation was necessary for the proper administration of an area. But there were two more important considerations than these. The Education Committee was simply a consultative committee. Every matter was to stand referred to it, but the local education authority was not bound to take its advice, It was important that the local education authority should have placed at its disposal the service of the persons best fitted to advise it in the area with which it dealt. Was it desirable then to strike out words which brought home to the Council that it should, except in urgent cases, consider the report of the Education

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  Committee? He had no doubt in his own mind that the County and Borough Councils would be very desirous of getting the best advice and of consulting their committees on all the points on which they were bound to consult them, and would, as a rule, be desirous of taking that advice, even at the cost of some delay in waiting for it. He had no doubt, also, that there would be found throughout the area persons capable of giving advice, who would, although they were employed in a merely consultative capacity, be willing to give their services in that respect. He could not help fearing that if it were distinctly set down in the Bill that the local education authority was under no obligation even to consider the report of its committee it would be a distinct discouragement to the sort of people we wanted on these Education Committees. One other consideration he would press upon the Committee. The omission which his hon. friend proposed carried with it the suggestion that the Education Committee had executive powers, that everything was to stand referred to them; and nothing was said about the Council exercising its power with or without the report of the committee. The Amendment, he thought, would be subject to the charge of ambiguity on a point which he had been particular to clear up the day before—namely, that the executive in educational matters was the local education authority and not the Education Committee. He begged to move.
  Amendment proposed—
  "After the words last inserted, to insert the words (2) All matters relating to the exercise by the Council of their powers under this Act shall stand referred to the Education Committee, and the Council, before exercising such powers, shall consider the report (if any) of the Education Committee with respect to the matter in question. The Council may also delegate to the Education Committee, with or without any restrictions or conditions, as they think fit, any of their powers under this Act, except the power of raising a rate or borrowing money."—(Sir William Anson.)
  Question proposed be there inserted."
  LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICEdid not hesitate
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  to say that the Amendment, which almost amounted to a new Clause, would be welcomed on that side of the House. He had placed on the Paper Amendments identical in form almost, and certainly identical in substance, When the Bill was first considered, hon. Members on that side were alarmed at what appeared to them to be the too large measure of independence given to the Education Committees, and there was a general wish on that side of the House to modify that provision. There were three models which might have been followed in regard to the relations of a body like a County Council, or the Council of a large borough, with regard to a committee. There was the ordinary committee of a County or Borough Council, which had no executive authority, but was simply advisory—a body which could not act on its own initiative but had to refer everything it did to the parent body for confirmation and action; next, there were statutory committees such as the Watch Committees, which were practically independent in regard to police, and the Asylum Committees, which represented various Councils and Boroughs, and enjoyed an exceedingly large independence. There were also Joint Committees controlling the county police. The last of these examples seemed to have inspired the promoters of the Bill. In addition, however, there was another class of committees, and hon. Members on that side of the House wondered why the Government had not taken them as models, since they existed chiefly in regard to educational matters. Accordingly, the Amendment which he placed on the Paper was practically a revival of the words of the Technical Instruction Act, and he was glad to say that on that principle there seemed now to be something like agreement. They had now had ten or eleven years' experience of the working of that Act, and the most satisfactory result had accrued. They were indebted to the Government for having met the views of the House, and of a large body of the public opinion outside, which desired, while giving full latitude to committees to deal with small matters, that in regard to greater questions, such as the fixing of rates, the borrowing of money

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  and capital expenditure on the schools, they should follow the precedent of the Technical Instruction Act.
  MR. CHAPLINasked the Government if there was any objection to the insertion of the words "except the power of raising a rate or borrowing money" after the word "Act." If the committee was not to have the power of raising money it should be clearly stated in the Clause. Personally, he had always been greatly in favour of the County Council being made the local authority, because he hoped it would tend to economy, but he was not quite sure about the committees to be appointed under this Bill.
  Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment as amended—
  "After the word 'Act' to insert the words 'except power of raising a rate or borrowing money.'"—(Mr. Chaplin.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A.J. BALFOUR, Manchester, E.)said he had no objection to the Amendment. It was quite clear that the education authority ought to be consulted as to the amount of money that was required to carry out the schemes to which the education authority was asked to agree. No doubt the question of raising a rate or borrowing money was a matter which did not concern the committee at all.
  MR. M'KENNAasked for a legal definition of the words "stand referred" in the Amendment of the Secretary to the Board of Education. It appeared to him the obvious meaning was that the local education authority would have no power to act in any matter at all until that matter had been referred to and dealt with by the Education Committee. If that were so, then he thought the additional Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sleaford was necessary.
  THE: ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir ROBERT FINLAY, Inverness Burghs)said
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  the intention was that before action was taken on any matter, opportunity must be given to the local committee to, report on it.
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT (Morimouthshire, W.): That means that under no circumstances can the local education authority take independent action.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: That is just what it does not mean.
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: I certainly understood the Attorney General to say that their action was to be dependent on having a report from the committee. They are not to act without first sending the matter to the committee.
  SIR ROBERT FINLAYsaid they were bound to send the matter to the Education Committee, which could report if it chose, but the local education authority's action in the absence of a report would be quite untrammelled.
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: Is it a condition precedent to the action of the education authority that they should send it to the committee? Can they act without sending it to the committee?
  SIR ROBERT FINALY: The effect of the word is that ipso facto the matter shall be referred to the Education Committee in practice, with or without their report the local education authority can take such action as it many think fit.
  SIR JOSEPH- LEESEsaid that under the Clause there were two functions—one of reference, the other of delegation. As he understood it, the local education authority would be able to delegate certain powers and duties inherited under Clause 6 from School Boards and school attendance Committees to the committee, a delegation which would, have, he presumed, to be approved by the Board of Education. Then there would be left certain other powers and duties w Inch came under the head of "reference." The committee would be asked to report on these referred matters

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  before the local education authority could take action. The Bill put the Reference before the Delegation. He thought it should be the other way about.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: They need not necessarily report.
  SIR FRANCIS POWELLtook it that the first part of the Amendment gave the committee a "right of audience," such as had been granted in schemes to the headmasters of great schools, enabling them to attend and place their veiws before the governing bodies. Assuming that that was the correct interpretation of the Amendment, the local education authority would have the entire power of delegation, and if it did so delegate its duties the committee would be able to act immediately, possessing as it did, full authority from the superior body. Although the word "consultation" had been used in the debate, he thought the powers possessed by the committee would be more analogous to those enjoyed by Corporation committees which dealt with building, sanitary, and kindred matter. The Council or Corporation reserved to itself the power of conforming the action of the Council, and that, he took it, would be the case with the committee set up under this Clause.
  SIR JAMES WOODHOUSE (Hudders-field)said he was in favour of the principle of the Government Amendment.
  THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order, The Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sleaford is now before the Committee.
  MR A. J. BALFOUR: We are quite willing to accept that. We had Letter do so, and thus clear the way for the discussing of the Amendment of my hon. friend the Secretary to the Board of Education.
  Sin JAMES WOODHOUSEthought the words of the Amendment moved by his right hon. friend the Member for Sleaford were totally unnecessary. He desired to make two or three observations on the Amendment which was proposed by the Secretary to the Board of Education.
  THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order! I think we had better dispose of the Amendment to the Amendment first.
  MH. BRYCEcontended that the words of the right hon. Gentleman did not improve the proposal of the Government at all, because they were acts which could only be clone by the Council and would not come under the reference as a matter of course.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that although the change was not a very great one it was in the right direction.
  MR. BRYNMOR JONESsaid his right hon. friend was hardly correct in saying that the powers reserved to the County Council were broader than those contained in the Amendment. He understood that the object of the Government was to give a free hand to the local education authority in the raising of the rates and the borrowing of the money.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE (Carnarvon Boroughs)said if this committee was not to consider the raising of the rate and how much money was to be borrowed, what could it do? The result of putting in these words would be that this committee could not consider the rate to be levied to carry out its own policy, and its own recommendations would have to be referred to the Finance Committee. What harm could there be in a committee of this sort considering their own expenditure? Why should they not be allowed to consider it?
  M'KENNAcontended that in the event of the committee not reporting, the local education authority would not be able to raise a rate to carry out the liability imposed upon them under Clause G. He heartily agreed with the Amendment.
  Question put and agreed to.
  MR. BRYNMOR JONESsaid that as the matter stood, except as to the raising of the rates and the borrowing of money, all the powers conferred upon the local education authority must be referred automatically to the Education Committee before any executive action could be taken by the County Council.

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  He did not see why this should be made obligatory. That the County Council, whether in the case of provided or non-provided schools, would take the opportunity of inquiring from the Education Committe what its advice would be was practically certain, but he could conceive cases in which the local authority would have to act with speed. Surely it would be better for the smooth working of the Act that it should not be compelled in all cases, except in financial matters, to refer to the Council but should exercise its own discretion. He begged to move.
  Amendment-proposed to the proposed Amendment—
  "In line 2, to leave out the words 'shall stand.' in order to insert the words 'may be.'" —Mr. Brynmor Jones.
  Question proposed, "That the words 'shall stand' stand part of the proposed amendment."
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid this Amendment struck very deep at the object of the Bill. They desired to obtain for the local authority the best assistance the district could afford. If people who could give such assistance were willing to serve it was important that the advice of the Education Committee would come form a body which had the whole educational policy of the area before it. Everything ought to be referred to the Education Committee, and then they would be able to give such advice as the local education authority might very well follow.
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURTsaid that this question depended upon the constitution they were going to make of these advisory bodies. If, as a great many hon. Members desired, a large proportion of the Education Committee consisted id members of the council, then they would have the advantage of the knowledge mid experience of those members. If they were going to give, as they ought to give on these advisory bodies, a majority which would consist of members of the Council, then they would have a voice in any decision which the Council might take. If they were really going to give to the Council power which the education authority might to have, they ought
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  not to exclude them from any independent action in the first instance which they thought fit to take. It was an unnecessary derogation from their authority to say they should never act without referring this matter to the authority. Therefore, why exclude them altogether except under circumstances in which the supreme education authority might think fit to take the matter into its own hands. One could conceive local circumstances which would make it highly desirable that the education authority, in some instances, should keep its power to deal with these matters on its own initiation.
  MR. WHITLEYsaid his objection was not so much to the word "shall" but to "stand." Suppose, for instance, that there was a complaint of the violation of the Conscience Clause in a certain school. That complaint would have to be forwarded to the Education Committee, and they might smother it if they desired and not report it to the Council at all. The Council, having no report, would have no knowledge of the question which had been raised, and it would take away from the Council the power of hearing an appeal on some question that had been raised. He did not wish action to be taken without reference to the committee unless it had failed to deal with some matter. His objection was not to the word "shall," but to the word "stand." He suggested that it might be altered to "shall be referral," for that would enable the. Council to send the appeal with an instruction to deal with it. In this House they sometimes gave an instruction to a Committee, but by the wording put forward by the Government he took it that action of that kind would be impossible if the word "Stand" remained in the Clause. It would then be within the official knowledge of the Council, before being referred to the Committee, so that if the committee failed to do their duty in reporting on the matter, the Council would be able to take action to remedy the neglect of the committee.
  MR. STEVENSONsaid there was no doubt that in the vast majority of cases the Comity Council would consult the Education Committee, but there might be cases where the County Council would desire to act at once without a reference of that kind. Other-

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  wise a matter which must be disposed of in a few minutes would have to come before the County Council at one of its quarterly meetings. By the Amendment as it now stood it would be referred to the Education Committee, and probably, owing to the technicalities, it would not come before the County Council until a meeting three months after that. As a matter of fact there might be instances in which it would be highly desirable that the County Council should act at once. He hoped the Government would accept the Amendment that "shall stand" should be altered to "may be."
  SIR JOHN BRUNNERasked the Attorney General whether the words as they stood might have the effect of excluding from the knowledge of the council any matter referred to the Education Committee.
  SIR ROBERT FINLAY: It must come before the County Council.
  SIR JOHN BRUNNERsaid he understood that nothing could come before the Council except upon a report from the committee. The ordinary course in the conduct of the proceedings of public bodies was that a matter should in the first instance come before the council. What would be the effect in the first instance of these words?
  SIR ROBERT FINLAYsaid the matter would be communicated to the clerk of the council and he would be bound to send it to the Education Committee. The committee might report, and if they reported, of course, that report would be considered, but if they did not report at all the local education authority might act entirely for themselves. [An HON. MEMBER "No."] The words were "and the council, before exercising any such prayers, shall consider the report (if any) of the Education Committee with respect to the matter in question." [An HON. MEMBER "They are not bound to report."] The committee might not report, but he apprehended that they always would report. The Government had provided for the possibility of the Education Committee delaying action. If after a reasonable time there was no report, the County Council would take the matter into their own hands and deal with it.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid the explanation given on behalf of the Government was better than the statement in the Bill. There was nothing in the Amendment that would indicate that the lapse of time made any difference at all. All it said was that the Council "shall consider the report (if any)." What was a reasonable time? If the council had absolute power why should not that be stated here? One thing was clear from the statement of the Attorney General, and that was that the Council had no initiative in the matter, Suppose a letter came with regard to the Conscience Clause, or it might be with regard to the affairs of a voluntary school, it would be sent by the clerk of the council to the committee. It would stand referred to the committee without any action on the part of the Council. He did not think that should be the case at all. He asked the Prime Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary to state whether the council would have the power of giving an instruction to this committee with regard to the carrying out of their functions. According to the Amendment the report of the committee was a condition precedent on any action on the part of the council, and according to the Attorney General they could only act either after a report had been received, or after a reasonable time had elapsed without the committee reporting. How could they give an instruction if that was the case?
  SIR WILLIAM ANSON: They delegate.
  MR. LLOYD - GEORGEsaid they could only act in the two contingencies stated by the Attorney General, and if that was the case they could not give an instruction to the committee at all.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid the matter might be referred to the Education Committee with an instruction accompanying the delegating power to act for the Council.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid it did not come before the council at all. That was exactly the difference between his hon. friend's Amendment and that of

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  the hon. Baronet. The hon. Baronet's Amendment said—
  "All mat lets relating to the exercise by the Council of their powers under this Act shall stand referred to the Education Committee, and the Council, before exercising any such powers, shall consider the report (if any)of the Education Committee with respect to the matter in question."
  If a letter were addressed to the Clerk of the County Council with regard to an infringement of the Conscience Clause it would "stand referred" to the Education Committee, and thereafter it could only come before the Council in the two ways indicated by the Attorney General, assuming the hon. and learned Gentleman's interpretation to be correct, but that was a matter on which he respectfully differed from him. If the intention of the Government was that it should come before the Council they ought to alter these words, because by the Amendment as it stood they were simply courting delay. By referring a matter first to the Education Committee, then to the County Council, and afterwards on appeal to the Board of Education, a period of twelve months Wright elapse before a final decision could be obtained.
  SIR JOHN DORINGTONsaid the hon. Member's Amendment would do exactly the opposite of what he desired to have done, namely, to expedite matters.
  MR. WHITLEYsaid that what he proposed was "shall he" instead of "shall stand."
  SIR JOHN DORINGTONsaid the Amendment before the Committee was to insert the words "may be." By adopting these words they would get into the very difficulty with regard to delay which they wished to avoid. He supported the view that the words of the Clause should be "shall stand" and not "may be."
  MR. WHITLEYasked whether the Government would be prepared to accept the word "be" instead of "stand."
  THE CHAIRMAN: It is making two bites at the cherry.
  MR BRYNMOR JONESsaid he wished leave to withdraw his Amendment.
  Amendment to the proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment, as amended—
  "to leave out the word 'stand,' and insert the word be.'"— (Mr. Whitley.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'stand' stand part of the proposed Amendment."
  SIR JOHN BRUNNERsaid that if the words "shall be" were in the Bill he understood that all matters would be referred by the Council to the committee, who would then proceed to take action. If the Attorney General were to say that the alteration of "stand" to "be" would have that effect, he would be satisfied.
  SIR ROBERT FINLAYsaid that if "stand" was used, the reference was dogmatic, but if "be" was used it only imposed another step.
  SIR JOHN BRUNNERsaid it was quite a common thing for a local authority to instruct their clerk to refer a matter sent to him to a committee.
  MR. BRYCEsaid that the difficulty of his hon. friend the Member for the Northwich Division evidently was that the County Council might not know the matter that was referred to—that the machinery of the Amendment would be much too automatic. Was there anything in the words of the Amendment which would prevent a general instruction being given to the clerk?
  SIR ROBERT FINLAYthought it was clear that the Council might order their clerk to inform them at their next meeting of all that had been done.
  MR. BRYCE: Would they discuss it?
  SIR ROBERT FINLAY: Certainly.
  SIR JAMES WOODHOUSEsaid that for the first time in the history of local government and legislation upon it by this House, it was proposed to say that the local authority should not deal with any question of

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  which it was the ultimate arbiter and judge, until a subordinate portion of the authority had first considered it. In no other branch of local Government dealt with by any of the great municipal corporations or County Councils of the country, or by any poor-law authorities of the country could they find laid down in any legislation that the major authority should not deal with any business until a subordinate portion of that authority had first dealt with it. That was the principle of the proposal made by the Government.
  THE CHAIRMAN: The Amendment now is that the word "stand" shall be left out in order to insert "be."
  SIR JAMES WOODHOUSEsaid that the question was whether the word "stand" should be allowed to form part of the original Amendment. The effect, of allowing the word "stand" to remain would be that all matters before being considered by the local authority should be first considered by the Committee.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he did not wish to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but it seemed to him that the hon. Gentleman's argument, whatever its value might be, would be equally applicable to the original Clause and the Clause as amended.
  SIR JAMES WOODHOUSEsaid he was afraid the right hon. Gentleman did not see the effect of the original or substituted words. The substituted words would make this difference, that it would cause the matter to come before the local authority, and the local authority could express its opinion upon it by way of instruction to the committee. He asked all those hon. Members in the House—and he saw a good many on both sides—who had great experience in local government, either in municipal corporations or County Councils, what they would think if on any other question of local Government, their County Councils or municipal corporations were debarred from considering a subject at their meetings until it had first been considered and reported on by a subordinate authority or a committee. He did not believe that it was worth the while of the right hon.
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  Gentleman to insist on these words, because they all knew that the practice of the local authorities was to refer all matters to the particular committees which dealt with them. There was a provision in the Municipal Corporations Act that all questions to be considered by committees should first come before the Corporation. Surely they could trust such great local authorities as the Corporations of Liverpool, Manchester and Birmingham, to say whether or not a committee should consider a particular matter first. But by this Clause the Government said "No, the corporation must not consider it until the committee has first done so."
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURTsaid he hoped the Government would consider the appeal made by the hon. Member for Huddersfield, who was such a high authority on the subject of local government. He was sure that the object of the Government must be to conciliate those great local authorities. Why in the world should they not have the power of reference to these committees? It should be remembered what these committees Would be. They would be largely aliens to the primary authority, because they were to consist, to a great degree, of outsiders, and ashy give a greater prerogative to a part than to the while? Was that a wise thing to do? Did the Government think dot that would induce those local bodies to look with more favour on the administration of this Bill? What the word "stanch" excluded was the power of the local authority to direct the committee. Take the case of a complaint under the Conscience Clause. The local authority might think that that was a matter which should be speedily decided, but, as the Clause of the Government stood, the local authority could not send the matter to the committee with instruction to look immediately into the matter and report at once, and as the local authority only met once in three months the delay would be very serious. This question went to the root principle of the power of the local authorities in this country.
  MR. WHITLEYsaid he wished to point out the difference between the effect of the word "shall" and the word "be." The Attorney General would not deny the proposition that the word

  293
  "stand" prevented the access of the ratepayers direct to the Council which they had elected. The representation of the ratepayers would automatically be referred to the committee and it would only come within the knowledge of the Connell which it was reported on by the committee. What he wished to protect was the right of the rate payers to have access to the men they had elected.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he thought the object of the hon. Member would he better carried out by the word "stand." The hon. Member aimed at two things—in the first place, that the education authority should he seized of what was going on; and, in the second place, that there should be no undue delay. Under the word "stand," the Education Authority would be seized of what was on, and could of course, discuss what Was going on. If the word "be" were substituted for "stand," that would be introducing another link in the general administrative chain, which could only lead to delay. Take the case of a matter, regarding which authority had been delegated to the committee. Under the word "stand," it would go before the Council and before the committee; the Council might not meet for two in, three months, but meantime the committee would consider it. If the case were of a different character, and dealt in a matter not delegated, then it would go at mice before the committee, and before the County Council as soon as it met. The Council would await the report of the committee before taking action, and, if that report were too long delayed, it would take action oil its own account. What could he more simple, or more expeditious, or what could more amply secure both the administrative autonomy stud power of the education authority, and, at the same time, the advisory position and dignity of the Education Committee? He hoped the hon.
  Member would not press the matter to a division.
  MR. JOSEPH PEASEsaid that there was one point
  which the First Lord of the Treasury had lost sight of. He agreed that it was most important that the Education Committee should have power delegated to it, between meetings of the County Council; but the right hon. Gentleman did not realize the importance of reserving power to the County Council to raise any question it liked.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURThe County Council will have that power.
  MR. JOSEPH A. PEASEsaid that, if the word "stand" were retained, no Member of the County Council would be allowed to move a resolution in reference to a matter delegated to the Committee.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he did not agree with the hon. Member.
  MR. JOSEPH A. PEASEsaid that that was the practice in County Councils. The Chairman would declare any such resolution out of order; whereas, if the word "be" were inserted; it would reserve to members of the County Council, the same power that they had over all other matters of local government. Therefore, it was very important that the word "be" should be substituted.
  MR. HUMPHREYS-OWENsaid he would not have intervened were it not for the interruption of the First Lord of the Treasury during his hon. friend's remarks. His hon. friend had stated the practice correctly. If a resolution were brought forward on a subject which load been referred to the committee, then the general sense of the Council would refuse to entertain it on the ground that it was before the committee, and that it would be only waste of time to consider it.
  (3.48) Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 200; Noes 100. (Division List, No.479.)

  Agg-Gardner. James Tynte

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Balcarres, Lord

  Agnew, Sir Ardrew Noel

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J. (Manch'r

  Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Balfour, RtHn Gerald W.(Leeds

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Balbury, Frederick George

  Archdale, Edward Mervyn

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Gretton, John

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

  Beresford, Lord Charles William

  Groves, James Grimble

  O'Doherty, William

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Bignold, Arthur

  Hain, Edward

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Bill, Charles

  Halsey, Et. Hon. Thomas F.

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Bond, Edward

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Brown, Alexander H.(Shropsh.

  Helder, Augustus

  Purvis, Robert

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Rankin, Sir James

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  ampbell, Rt Hn. J.A.(Glasgow

  Higginbottont, S. W.

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Carew, James Lawrence

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset,E.

  Renwick, George

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge)

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Hope, J. E.(Shefileld, Brightside

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Horner, Frederick William

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon.J.(Birm.

  Hoult, Joseph

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Chamberlain, Rt HnJA(Worc'r

  Howard, John (Kent, Fav'rsh'm

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Chapman, Edward

  Hutton, John (Yorks, N.R.)

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Johnstone, Heywood

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Kemp, George

  Sinclair, Louis (Rumford)

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo.T.(Denbigh)

  Smith, HC(North'mb. Tyneside

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Kimber, Henry

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Spear, John Ward

  Denny, Colonel

  Lawson, John Grant

  Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Lecky, Rt. Hn. William Edw. H.

  Stewart, Sir Mark J.M'Taggart

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. SirJohnE.

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Darning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

  Loder, Gerald Waller Erskine

  Talbot, RtHn JG(Oxf'd univ

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Thornton, Perey M.

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol,S.

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn SirJ.(Manc'r.

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Valentia, Viscount

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  Finch, George H.

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E(Taunton

  Einlay,Sir Robert Bannatyne

  M`Iver, Sir Lewis(Edinburgh, W

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E.(Notts.)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  M`Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Whiteley, H.(Asht'n-und-Lyne

  Fison, Frederick William

  Maxwell, WJH (Dumfriesshire)

  Williams, RtHnJ Powell (Birm

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Wilson, A. Stanley(York, E. R.)

  Flower, Ernest

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Wodehouse, RtHn. E. R. (Bath)

  Forster, Henry William

  Milner, Rt.Hn. Sir Frederick G.

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Foster, Philips.(Warwick,S.W

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Wortley, Rt Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Gardner, Ernest

  More, Robt. Jasper(Shropshire)

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Garth, William

  Morgan, DavidJ (Walthamstow

  Wylie, Alexander

  Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans)

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc.

  Mount, William Arthur

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Murray, RtHn. A.Graham (Bute

  TELLERS FOR. THE AYES—

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Greene, SirE.W(B'ryS.Edm'nds

  Myers, William Henry

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  NOES

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Allan, Sir William (Gateshead)

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Charming, Francis Allston

  Allen, Charles P. (Glouc.,Stroud

  Bryce, Ht. Hon. James

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Burt, Thomas

  Davies, M.Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Caine, William Sproston

  Dlike, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Caldwell, James

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Brigg, John

  Cameron, Robert

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Edwards, Frank

  296

  297

  Elibank, Master of

  Lloyd-George, David

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Ellis, John Edward

  Logan, John William

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  M`Kenna, Reginald

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Gladstone, Rt. HnHerbertJohn

  Mellor, Rt. Hon. John William

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Moss, Samuel

  Spencer, Rt Hn C.R.(Northants

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon, Sir William

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Srachey, Sir Edward

  Harwood, George

  Palmer, Sir CharlesM.(Durham

  Thomas, Sir A. Glamorgan,E.)

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale

  Partington, Oswald

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden.)

  Thomas, JA(Glamorg'n, Gower

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Price, Robert John

  Wason, Eugene

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Priestley, Arthur

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Rea, Russell

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R)

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries)

  Williams, Osmond(Merioneth)

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea

  Rigg, Richard

  Woodhouse, Sir J T. (Huddersf'd

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Lambert, George

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Layland-Barratt Francis

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Runciman, Walter

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Leng, Sir John

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Mr. Whitley and Mr.

  Levy, Maurice

  Shackleton, David James

  Humphreys-Owen.

  MR. SAMUEL EVANS (Glamorganshire, Mid.)said the Amendment which he now proposed to move was necessary, if not almost consequential. He moved to insert after the word "committee" the words "who shall consider the same forthwith and report thereon with despatch to the Council." It was unnecessary to make any long observations with regard to this Amendment, because the necessity for it had been duly pointed out in the speeches made upon the previous Amendments. The object was to prevent delay: and the principle that there should not be much delay having been laid down, there was no reason why the principle should not be put into the Bill by the insertion of these words. He hoped the Government would see their way to accept the Amendment he now begged to move.
  Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
  "in line 2, after the word 'committee' to insert the words 'who shall consider the same forthwith and report thereon with dispatch to the council.'"—(Mr. Samuel Evans.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."
  MR. CHANNINGin supporting the Amendment, said there was one very important question which he would be glad if the Government could enlighten
  298
  the House upon. How often would the County Committees be prepared to sit? Those who were acquainted with the procedure of the School Boards would know that, as a rule, a School Board met fortnightly and that in the alternate weeks the various committees of the Board met to deal with current matters. If this matter was to be left vague and uncertain there was great force in the Amendment. If, on the other hand, they were to understand that the committee would be called together at not too great intervals of time, then they would know that these matters would be automatically considered and reported on within a reasonable time. He hoped the Government would throw some light upon this matter.
  MR. LLOYD-JEORGEsaid he understood that if there was any delay the County Council could act on its own initiative; but he did not think that appeared on the face of this Amendment of the Secretary to the Board of Education. Would the hon. Gentleman make that clear by the insertion of words?
  MR. BRYCEsaid the difficulty under which they had laboured with these committees in the last three Amendments had been the same, and that was that these committees would be given a quite independent position. If it was to be a committee of the County Council in the ordinary sense, and one that could be

  299
  told when to report, a committee with regard to which the County Council could dismiss some of the members if they chose, these difficulties could not arise. The Government in this case would see that some uncertainty existed in the minds of the education authorities in the country, and he desired to know whether the local education authorities would be able to give general powers to these committees. He thought many of these difficulties would not arise in practice, because in most cases the matter would be settled by the delegation given in another portion of the Clause. But as this was a power of reference he thought it was desirable that the Attorney General should express the views of the Government clearly.
  SIR ROBERT FINLAYsaid the hon. Member for East Northamptonshire had asked how often it was contemplated the Education Committee were going to meet. That, of course, must depend upon the amount of business they had to do. He rather deprecated laying down a hard and fast line for all parts of the country, but he should say they would meet as often as the School Board did now. With regard to the question of the hon. Member for Carnarvon as to the initiative of the County Council under given circumstances, and to the question of the right hon. Member for South Aberdeen, what was contemplated was this; if the report did not come up in proper time the local education authority itself should act, and he would suggest to the consideration of hon. Members whether some such words as these would not remove all doubt in the matter. The Clause would then read thus:—
  "All matters relating to the exercise by the Council of their powers under this Act shall stand referred to the Education Committee, and the Council, before exercising any such powers, shall, unless in their opinion the Matter is urgent, receive and consider the report (if any) of the Education Committee with respect to the matter in question."
  MR. BRYCEthought those words were a great improvement, and they went to show that the discussion on the last few Amendments had not been wasted.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSpointed out that, except by implication, these words did not tell the committees that they were to report. His Amendment said they
  300
  were to "report with despatch" to the authority. He regretted the Government would not accept the Amendment.
  Question put and negatived.
  MR. HENRY HOBHOUSE (Somersetshire, E.)said that owing to the very recent time in which the Clause had been remodelled by the Government, it had been impossible for those representing County Councils to consider it in its new shape. The hon. Gentleman the Secretary of the Board of Education had said the County Councils would be their own executive. He submitted that in large counties it would be practically impossible for them to be their own executive in educational matters, Owing to the size of the Councils, and the working of this Bill, it would be impossible to carry it out, unless there was a large amount of delegation. There were many details which no County Councils would require to have brought before them, and if these committees were to have to report all the details, the agenda would become most voluminous. The words of the Amendment as they stood would make many eases play into the hands of obstructionists on the Councils, and reports might be delayed in matters with which immediate action was necessary. The question of consent to the appointment of a teacher, for instance, was a matter which could not be delayed for months until the Council could deal with it; it required to he dealt with at once by the committee. If every matter of that kind, which in. ninety-nine cases out of a hundred would not raise any question of fierce controversy or political difference, had to be delayed until it could be brought before the whole,. Council, administration would be greatly embarrassed and serious complaints would arise. The Secretary to the Board of Education had used the expression "except in urgent cases," but there was no such exception made in the Clause. The words as they stood were far too wide, and he suggested it would be better that the Clause should read "to the Education Committee, and the Council may delegate," and so on, "and subject to such delegation the committee shall report to the Council." His only object was to have words inserted which would smooth the working of the Act in large counties, and he hoped the Government would accept his remarks-in the spirit in which they had been made.
  Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
  "In line 2, to leave out from the word 'and' down to the word 'the' in line 4."—(Mr. Henry Hobhouse.)
  Question proposed "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed Amendment.
  SIR EDWARD STRACHEY (Somersetshire, S.)said it was clear from his explanation of the Amendment that the hon. Member for East Somersetshire feared that the Councils would interfere unduly with the Education Committees. The evident intention of the Government was that these committees, like all other committees of the County Council, should be subject in all things to, and liable to be corrected, if necessary, by the Council. The hon. Member had spoken of "swollen agendas" and the difficulty of getting through the work. The reports might be very bulky, but they would not appear on the agenda. One of the reasons which had prompted the hon. Member's action was probably his experience on the County Council of Somerset, where his reports on technical education had had sometimes to be strongly opposed by the Patronage Secretary to the Treasury and himself (the hon. Baronet). As to the provision "playing into the hands of the obstructionists," it was occasionally necessary for councillors to obstruct when they had gentlemen as chairmen of the Technical Education Committees who endeavoured recklessly to spend the money of the ratepayers, and the object of the Amendment apparently was to lessen the control of the ratepayers' representatives committees. The practical result of the Amendment would be that the County Council would have to pay the bill, while the Education Committee called whatever tune they chose and spent the ratepayers' money without restriction. It was very necessary that these committees should report, and that these report should be confirmed by the Council before money was spent. He, therefore, should strongly oppose the Amendment.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid the hon. Member for East Somerset had to a
  302
  certain extent answered his own objections. He had pointed out that if delay was lkely to take place in matters of urgency, extensive powers of delegation would have to be given, and that was exactly what the Clause provided for two lines lower down. The Government proposed to give the local authority extensive powers of delegation for the very purpose of meeting cases of urgency, preventing unnecessary delay, and there by obviating the inconvenience feared by his hon. Friend. Nevertheless the Government, while they did not wish there to be any doubt of difficulty as to the capacity of these two bodies to transact with the utmost possible celerity the business in which they both were interested, would be prepared to accept an Amendment in the following form if agreeable to the hon Member, viz., after "powers shall" to insert "unless in their opinion the matter is urgent, receive and consider the report," etc. The words "if any" would then become unnecessary.
  SIR JOHN DORNGTONthought the words just suggested made the matter worse than before. He feared that those who had to administer the Act would consider that in all cases they had to report tot the Council before any powers could be exercised, and that would constantly doom the whole machinery to inaction. The words "unless the matter in urgent" would only emphasise the point still more. Take the appointment of a schoolmaster to a post actually vacant. Was that a matter of urgency or not? Under the powers of delegation given in the latter part of the Clause the Education Committee might do a great deal without reference, if that part of the Clause stood alone, but if in the first part it was distinctly stated that the Council, except in cases of urgency, were to consider the report of the committee, a great many County Councils would consider that all decisions upon matters which went before the Education Committee were to be brought up for confirmation before being carried into execution. That, he thought, would place a great stumbling-block in the way of the management of these committees.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEwas glad the Government had declined to accept the Amendment. If they had done so, they

  303
  would simply have whittled away the concession made earlier in the debate, viz., that this committee should be a committee of the Council, dependent on the Council, and that the Council should be the supreme authority. Under the Amendment, the committee would become a sort of statutory body like a watch committee, or a joint police committee, or one of the county governing bodies in Wales, having power to act independently, without the sanction of the authority. The fears of hon. Members as to delay were groundless, because the powers of delegation in this matter would be the same as in others. In small matters the committee would have complete power, but matters of substance would have to be reported upon to the Council. Questions of principle would be settled by the superior authority, but matters of routine would be left to the committee. As to the Amendment of the Attorney General, he thought it would not in any way interfere with the expeditious working of the scheme. It would simply give power to the Council in matters which they decreed to be urgent, and they, after all, were the judges of urgency. So far from interfering with the expedition, he thought it would tend to smooth matters and help the scheme to work well
  SIR JOSEPH LEESEthought the words suggested should not be accepted, because, if they were inserted, the County Council would be controlled by its own committee.
  MR. HENRY HOBHOUSEasked leave to withdraw his Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
  "In line 3, to leave out the words 'if any.'"—(Sir Robert Finlay.)
  Amendment agreed to.
  Words [of Sir William Anson's original Amendment, as amended] inserted.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he desired to move the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Anglesey. The danger of having an irresponsible body was that they were not disposed to take into account the opinion of the
  304
  majority of the people in whose interests they were supposed to act. If they had to give an account of their stewardship to a body of electors they would probably act differently to what they would otherwise do. It was quite possible under this Bill that a majority of those acting on these Committees which would be primarily responsible for education within that area would be men who had not been elected by a vote of the ratepayers and had perhaps never come into contact with them. They might have too much expert representation. The Welsh system was getting too much under the influence of experts, and there was a general complaint that against the highly scientific and technical experts the ordinary laymen had no chance. If they overloaded these Boards with experts who took a high scientific line they would not get an efficient educational system. These experts were always running fads of their own. What they wanted was a majority of the representatives of the people to act like jurymen on the jury system. It was a very good thing to have such men on the Board as assessors, but the majority should consist of the ordinary typical representative of the electors. This would give them a much more healthy system than a policy run by experts. He thought it was important that they should have on these boards men who had got a direct sense of responsibility to the rates they were spending to whom they were responsible. That was one of the reasons for which he urged this Amendment.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 4, line 33, to leave out sub-Section (a), and insert, (a) That a majority of the committee shall he members of the Council."'—(Mr. Lloyd-George.)
  Question proposed, "That sub-Section (a) stand part of the Clause."
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid that the Government were agreed in desiring that a majority of the Education Committee should be members of the local authority, and the form of words which they were prepared to accept was as follows—
  "For the appointment by the Council of at least a majority of the Committee who shell be members of the Council unless the Council shall otherwise determine."

  305
  The Government left it optional to this extent that if the local Education Committee deliberately, by express resolution, decided that it would not have a majority of its own body on the Committee, it should be competent for them to take that course.
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURTsaid he was afraid that the words suggested by the Government only showed the weakness of their proposal. Hon. Members knew perfectly well that this business, especially in the rural districts, would be heavy and irksome. When they considered that this committee would he expected to meet frequently, and that the meetings would probably be held in the county town, it might be very convenient for the members of the County Council, whose residences were some distance away, to say that it would be very much better to leave men behind them as substitutes in order to avoid the necessity of attending themselves on those occasions. He could perfectly see that this provision might be very generally adopted. He did not think that ought to be allowed it they wanted to maintain the principle that a majority were to be men responsible to the ratepayers, and that was the vital question. They knew perfectly well what this delegation would be. The people who would really do the administrative work of this measure were the people who lived in the immediate neighbourhood of the place where the meetings were to be held, because people who lived in the districts would not attend unless they were under obligation to do so. By the proposal of the Government the committee, instead of being representative of the ratepayers of the whole county, would be representative really only of those who lived in the locality of the county town. The business would fall into the hands of a very narrow circle of people living around the place where the business was done. That was a practical disadvantage which would arise in the working of the Bill, and they ought to maintain on a sound principle that a majority should be elected by the ratepayers.
  MR. MIDDLEMOREsaid he was bound to say, as far as the
  306
  large communities were concerned, that the Government proposal was very much better than the Amendment proposed from the opposite Benches. The work of the Councils, especially in the large communities, had most enormously increased since their establishment, and indeed since the last quarter of a century. They worked, as the House was aware, through committees. Recently they had established free libraries, art galleries, industrial schools, art schools, technical schools, and gas and water committees, the last named involving immense work, and rearing men of first-class business capability. The Councils were now establishing workmen's dwellings, which also involved, like many of the committees, enormous work. Now Parliament was proposing to impose on the Councils the control of education. All these things had made the Finance Committee one of great importance, the expenditure having increased and the debts accumulated. It was no exaggeration to say that since the Municipal Corporations Acts were passed the work of these bodies had increased twenty-five or thirty fold. Their personnel, however, was not greatly improving; elections were chiefly fought on political grounds, and first-class men were often rejected—thus their failure to pronounce the shibboleth of a particular party. In fact many large municipalities were practically run and controlled by five or six men. These bodies were incapable of taking on greatly increased work. It was extremely likely that the imposition of these fresh duties would be the occasion and cause of the reconsideration of their constitution.
  SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid the hon. Member for North Birmingham was not a friend of the Bill and preferred the School Boards to the local authorities. Had he been a friend of the Bill his proposals would have been strange ones. His argument was that the work which those great bodies had to perform was already sufficient to engage all their energies. The ground on which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Monmouthshire supported the Amendment made it necessary to move a further Amendment. He spoke of elected Members who were in direct

  307
  touch with the constituencies, but in many counties the aldermen were those who had been defeated candidates at the election. Therefore they were not in direct touch with the electorate. In some cases they did not represent the opinions of the electorate on certain subjects, but in other cases they were the very men whom hon. Members would wish to have on the committee. An Amendment should be made providing that the half or majority who were to be in touch with the electorate should be really elected members of the Council. He proposed to move to insert the word "elective" before "members."
  THE CHAIRMANsaid there was a difficulty in allowing that Amendment to be moved now. The proposal before the Committee was that certain words be left out. He suggested that the best plan would be for the right hon. Baronet to move his Amendment as an Amendment to a proposal which the Government would bring forward later on.
  SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid he would do that. The First Lord of the Treasury, in recommending the Bill, had told them that it was based on popular election, and that the controlling body would he a popularly elected body in touch with the people and representative of their opinions. How very far were they from that principle at present! Even with the adoption of the Government Amendment they would be far from it. The County Council divisions were based on a threefold consideration—area, rateable value, and population. There was no real representation of the opinions of the people on account of the fact that area and rateable value were factors taken into consideration. They were very far from popular representation in the constitution of the County Councils, but even with County Councils so elected upon such a franchise and upon such areas—taking into consideration rateable value and acreage—they did not trust them with the administration of this Bill. They were only going to allow them as an option to have a majority of the committee members of the Council. The duties to be discharged by the Committee were very considerable, and on that
  308
  committee there should be a majority representing the voting power of the district.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that it the hon. Member for Anglesey would be prepared to withdraw his Amendment, an Amendment on the same point would be moved by his hon. friend behind him which embodied the general views of the Government.
  MR. ELLIS GRTHsaid he was not anxious to have two discussions on practically the same subject, and he was quite willing to withdraw his Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 4, line 34, after the wool Committee,' to insert the words 'who shall also be members of the Council unless the Conned shall otherwise determine.(Sir William Anson)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  COLONEL ROBERT WILLIAMS (Dorsetshire, W.)said he was extremely glad that the Government had proposed the Amendment in the form which they had now done. This was just one of those cases in which they must trust the people, and trust the County Councils as to what was best for their own counties. The circumstances of even two adjacent counties might be materially different. One county might have one view as to how the educational work should be carried on, and another county might look at it in another way. Some of them were in direct touch with the schools which they had to manage, and in that case the committee might be a very large one, because their interest would be great and it would be impossible for all its members to be members of the County Council. On the other hand, there were cases where the County Council might well conduct their educational work with a small committee, the majority of which would be members of the Council and to whom the powers of the Council would be delegated. He thought the Government were quite right to leave it to the County Councils themselves to manage

  309
  this question, and it seemed to him that would be unduly fettering the powers of the County Councils to adopt any other words than those proposed.
  MR. ELLIS GRIFFITHsaid that the only point at issue was as to whether or not they should give a direction to the County Council as to the constitution of the committee. Tins Bill was full of distrust of the local authorities and hedged them round with restrictions and limitations of their power from beginning to end. It they were agreed that the majority of the committee should be members of the Council there was no reason why that should not be inserted in the Bill. It seemed to him that they were far away from the direct control of the ratepayers if they were going to appoint a committee consisting of three-fourths or seven-eighths of outsiders. He trusted the First Lord would leave the House itself to decide this question, which was not controversial.
  MR. EMMOTTsaid he thought it was generally acknowledged in this country that one of the great wants in regard to education was lack of popular enthusiasm. But they could not cultivate enthusiasm unless they insisted on the representatives of the people being closely bound up with the administration of educational affairs. Without that there was great loss to the country. The Government had given no indication as to why they thought there should not be a majority of members of the Council on the committee. He could not see how the disadvantage of the committee having close touch with the people was to be balanced by haying experts on it.
  MR HEYWOOD JOHNSTONEsaid that this was not a matter in which they should indicate the proportion of the members of the committee which should be members of the Council and which should he chosen from the outside. After all, that would have to be settled by the scheme. It was a matter which should be governed by the individual circumstances of a particular Council or a particular locality. It must be a very pleasing thing in a town where the borough councillors were always ready to attend to matters of this
  310
  sort. But he was certain that if they had to deal with a large agricultural county a committee that majority of which was selected from the County Council would be so large as to be absolutely unwieldy, or they would have to leave off the committee a very considerable number of people scattered over different parts of the county.
  MR. BRYCEsaid that besides the two alternatives already suggested, there was another method. The scheme itself might provide that there should be always a majority of the committee members of the Council unless the Council should determine from time to time. He thought that would be more in conformity with the views to which the Government had given expression. On the general question he could only say the had been much impressed by the views of the hon. Member for North Birmingham, who had pointed out with great force the enormously increased functions which had devolved on the Town Councils. In the main, he thought, that was a desirable result, but the consequence was the heaping of duties on duties upon the members, and if a majority of the committee were to be members of the Town Council the superintendence of all matters relation to elementary and secondary education would throw on them an enormous addition to their already heavy tasks. He admitted the difficulty, but, after all, the vital principle here was that these bodies must be responsible to the people, and unless they had majority of members of the County Council on the committee there could not be that responsibility. The hon. Member for North Birmingham ought to have thought of the difficulties which he had pointed out, before supporting the Government on this Bill. In the Borough Councils the difficulty was one of time and in the Urban Councils one of space, but this Committee could not, even for the sake of avoiding those difficulties, forego the vital principle of direct responsibility. For these reasons he supported the Amendment.
  MR. TALBOTsaid with regard to this matter the right hon. Gentleman opposite seemed to be carried away by sentiment. The responsibility to the people might not be

  311
  direct, but there was an indirect responsibility which was very real, and really amounted to the same thing. Some things which were indirect were far more real and binding than if they were direct. Here they had the County Councils who were the direct representatives of the people; and if these bodies which represented the electors chose to select persons not upon their body, they had decided a difficult and delicate matter as seemed to them best. The objection of the right hon. Gentleman was a sentimental objection which ought to be set aside by those who desired to arrive at the best educational result. The Committee had heard a good deal as to the harm that was going to be done by the extinction of the School Boards, but the members of the School Boards in the large towns might still remain charged with the duties of education, by becoming members of the new Education Committees. But if these committees were to be crowded with members of Borough Councils, there would be no room for the members of these School Boards. When we trust a body we ought to trust it entirely. Having set up the County Council as the authority they ought not to say to it, "You shall select as we like and not as you like."
  MR. M'KEENNAsaid he would agree that it was right to trust a body entirely if that body was to be responsible to the public. What they were asking for was real public control and not delegated public control. He complained that under this Clause a County Council could form a scheme under which there could be no real public control by another County Council which came after them. What they asked was that no County Council should be able to pledge another County Council by its scheme. His real object, however, in rising, was to ask the First Lord of the Treasury to consider the appeal made by his hon. friend that this matter should be left to the unfettered will of the House to deal with.
  MR. BONDthought that much that had been said with regard to direct control was beside the mark. No committee which had to report to its principal body—which might have its decisions and recommendations reviewed
  312
  and upset by that body—could be said to have direct responsibility. He was in favour of directing the County Council under the scheme to put on its Education Committee a majority of its own members, for the reason that it was not at all unlikely that as time went on, it the committee was composed of members who were not on the County Council, a certain jealousy would establish itself between the Education Committee and the Council, a thing not at all to be desired. He had noticed that in London the County Council at times almost regretted the power they had given to the Education Committee, and he felt sure that the feeling would have been intensified if the majority of that committee had consisted of members who were not members of the County Council. In the interests of education generally, it was desirable that it should be laid down that a majority of the committee should be composed of members of the Council. He hoped that that would be the line on which the decision of this Committee would go, and that when this matter came to be decided, the Government would listen to the appeal that had been made, and leave it to the unfettered judgment of the Committee.
  MR. CHANNINGsaid the right hon. Member for Oxford University had spoken of this as a sentimental grievance. That might be so if they were dealing with a University. But they were dealing now with the control of elementary education. He recognised the value of the concession the Government had made so far as it went, but he hoped they would give a free hand to their followers in the lobby, and that some weight should be given to the argument in favour of giving unqualified discretion to secure that most members of these committees should be members of the County Council. The greatest merit of the School Boards was due to the fact that they sprang directly from the people and were directly responsible to the people. This Amendment was supported because if they were in any way to preserve the state of things in which the grand results of the School Board system had been attained, they must aim at some system which would supply the same direct incentives to the

  313
  people to take a direct interest in education. The people would naturally throw themselves enthusiastically into the work of education if they were left free to choose for themselves the persons who would best conduct the education of their children. One of the gravest objections to the scheme of the Bill was the inevitable exclusion of Labour representatives. Frequently on the School Boards in industrial towns labour representatives had done most efficient work. He could bear personal witness to the enormous service which Labour representatives had rendered on the School Boards.
  MR. TALBOT: Then why do you not leave room for them?
  MR. CHANNINGsaid it was far better to leave it to the electors of these towns to appoint the men whom they had found by experience to be best fitted for the work, and who had acted locally in the furtherance of education among the working classes. One of the startling results of the School Boards was the widened interest the labouring classes took in education. This was demonstrated in the action taken by the trades unions and the great co-operative societies of this country to insist on the maintenance of the School Boards, the expansion of higher education under the School Board, and the general development of education. This was an aspect of the question which the committee should weigh well before coming to a decision. So far as education was concerned, there was no more cogent lever than to rouse the active interest of the working classes themselves. The proposals of this Clause seemed to be a very bad substitute for what at present existed. Even if the Amendment was accepted, what would happen in the rural counties? Certainly, even in a progressive county like Northamptonshire, they would find a disposition on the part of the members of the County Council placed on these committees to absent themselves from the committee, and leave the work to be clone by the experts mid permanent officials. That would be a serious evil, which would be enormously aggravated if the option were introduced into this Clause.
  SIR JAMES WOODHOUSEreinforced the appeal made to the First Lord of the Treasury to allow this to be an open question. He pointed out that the borough local authorities had met and unanimously passed a resolution in favour of this Amendment.
  SIR CHARLES DILKEmoved to, amend the Amendment, by substituting the word "councillors" for the expression "members of the Council." He explained that he had already made his speech upon this Amendment when he moved it previously, and he was ruled out of order, and, therefore, it was not necessary to, speak again. He might just, however, say that the effect would be to confine, the proposal to the elected members of the Council, and to leave aldermen out. They could, however, still be co-opted members of the Education Committee. He begged to move.
  Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
  "To leave out the words 'members of the Council,' and insert the word councillors.'" (Sir Charles Dilke.)
  Question proposed, "That the words members of the Council' stand part of the proposed Amendment."
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he was not aware that there was any analogy in our legislation affecting Borough and County Councils for any such invidious distinction between councillors and aldermen as that proposed by the right hon. Baronet. He was sure that it would he a profound mistake to introduce it into this Bill. He would not argue whether the existing system was improved or injured by the fact that there were certain members of the Borough and County Councils who had not the same immediate election by the electorate as the councillors; but, if that fact did constitute an injury to the system, let them wait for a general reconsideration of the whole scheme. For his own part, he suspected that those who were practically acquainted with the work of the Borough and County Councils, whatever their theoretical views, did not think the quality of those bodies was injured by the fact that aldermen served upon them.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSpointed out that some of the enlightened County Councils of Wales, such as he was acquainted with, declined to make any one an alderman at all unless he had first been elected a councillor, and the practical effect of his right hon. friend's proposal would be to exclude from the Education Committee some of the best members of
  the Council. As he was not satisfied as to what would be the practical result of this Clause, he should vote in favour of this Amendment.
  (5.43.) Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 232; Noes, 122. (Division List, No. 480.)

  AYES

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dix'n

  Johnstone, Heywood

  Aird, Sir John

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Kemp, George

  Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden

  Doughty, George

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

  Archdale, Edward Mervyn

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Knowles, Lees

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn Sir J.(Manc'r

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

  Bagot, Capt. Josecline FitzRoy

  Fielder', Edward Brocklehurst

  Lawrence, Won F. (Liverpool)

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Finch, George H.

  Lawson, John Grant

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Balcarres, Lord

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J. (Manch'r

  Flower, Ernest

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Forster, Henry William

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Balfour, RtHn Gerald W(Leeds

  Fester, PhilipS. (Warwick,S. W

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Gardner, Ernest

  Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Garfit, William

  Long, Rt.Hn. Walter (Bristol,S)

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Beresford, Lord Chas. William

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Bignold, Arthur

  Gore, Hon. S. E.Ormsby-(Linc.)

  Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth

  Bigwood, James

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Bill, Charles

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Bond, Edward

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Greene, Sir E W(B'rySEdm'nds

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis(Edinburgh W

  Bowle, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex

  Greene, Henry D (Shrewsbury)

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.

  Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Gretton, John

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.

  Greville. Hon. Ronald

  Middlemore John Tirogmorton

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Groves, James Grimble

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Bull, William James

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G.

  Butcher, John George

  Hain, Edward

  Milvain, Thomas

  Campbell, RtHn. J. A. (Glasgow

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire

  Carew, James Laurence

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Morgan, DavidJ (Walthamst'w

  Carson, Et. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Hamilton, RtHn Lord G(Midd'x

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Hanbuty Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Mount, William Arthur

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Murray, RtHn A.Graham(Bute

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Myers, William Henry

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J.(Birm.

  Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A(Wore

  Helder, Augustus

  Nolan, Col. John.P.(Galway,N.

  Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton

  Henderson, Sir Alexander

  O'Doherty, William

  Chapman, Edward

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Higginbottom, S. W.

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H Athole

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Hope,J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Horner, Frederick William

  Pretyrnan, Ernest George

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Hoult, Joseph.

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Howard, John(Kent, Faversh'm

  Purvis, Robert

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

  Pym, C. Guy

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Hutton, John (Yorks. N.R.)

  Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Rankin, Sir James

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.

  Welby, Sir Chariest. G E (Notts.

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Whiteley, H (Ashton-und, Lyne

  Renwick, George

  Spear, John Ward

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bornwich)

  William, RtHnJ Powell (Birm

  Ridley, Hon. M.W(Stalybridge

  Stanley. Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Ritchie, Rt Hon. Chas. Thomson

  Stewart, Sir Mark J.M'Taggart

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York. E. R.

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hon. E.R (Bath

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Talbot, RtHn.J.G. (Oxf'd Univ.

  Wortley, Rt. Hon C. B. Stuart-

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Wylie, Alexander

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col Edward

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. FL

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Valentia, Viscount

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Vincent, Col. Sir C E H (Sheflield

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Smith, Abel H (Hertford, East)

  Walrond, RtHon Sir William H.

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Smith,HC(North'mb, Tyneside

  Welby, Lt-Col.A.C.E(Taunton

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  NOES

  Abraham William (Rhondda)

  Harwood, George

  Rea, Russell

  Allan, Sir William (Gateshead

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Allen, Charles p (Glouc.,Strotud

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Rigg, Richard

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Helme Norval Watson

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Hope, John Deans (Fite, West)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Brigg, John

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Runciman, Walter

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Brown, George M. (EdinBurgh

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Shackleton, David James

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Jacaby, James Alfred

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Jones, David Brynmor(Sw'nsea

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Burt, Thomas

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Caine, William Sproston

  Labouchere, Henry

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Caldwell, James

  Lambert, George

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Cameron, Robert

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Leng, Sir John

  Spenecer, Rt. Hn.C.R(Northants

  Cawley, Frederick

  Levy Maurice

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Cremer, William Randal

  Lloyd-George, David

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E)

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Logan, John William

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan. E.

  Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan

  Macnamara, Dc. Thomas J.

  Thomas, Daved Alfred (Merthyr

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower

  Dunn, Sir William

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Edwards, Frank

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Walton, John Lawson (Lees,S.

  Elibank, Master of

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Ellis, John Edward

  Mellor, Rt. Hon. John William

  Wason, Eugene

  Emmott, Alfred

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

  White, Luke (York. E. R.)

  Evans, Sir Francis H(Maidstone

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Whiteley, George, (York W.R.)

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Moss, Samuel

  Whiteley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Newnes, Sir George

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Norman, Henry

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Wilson, Fred. W.(Norfolk, Mid

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Palmer, Sir Charles M.(Durham

  Woodhouse, Sir J.T(Huddersf'd

  Gladston, Rt. Hn Herbert John

  Partington, Oswald

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William

  Philipps, John wynford

  Sir Charles Dilke and

  Harmsworth, Rt. Leicester

  Pickatil, Benjamin

  Sir Brampton Gurdon.

  MR. ELLIS GRIFFITH,in moving the omission of the words "unless the Council shall otherwise determine," said he did not desire to repeat the arguments he had already laid before the Committee. The object he and his friends had in view was to make the
  318
  Education Committee, as far as the Majority of its members were concerned, directly responsible to the ratepayers. This was a matter which did not trench on the question of religious education, it was simply a matter of government; it was therefore a question on which the

  319
  members of the Committee might very well be left to exercise their own judgment without taking Party ties into consideration, and he appealed to the First Lord of the Treasury not to appoint the Party Whips to tell in the division.
  Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
  "To leave out the words unless the Council shall otherwise determine.'"—(Mr. Ellis Griffith.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed Amendment."
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I have been appealed to two or three times in the course of this debate to make the present question what is called an open question, and not to employ the ordinary means by which Party controversy is carried on in this House. I do not think that is a judicious course to pursue, and perhaps the Committee will bear with me if, in a word I explain the attitude of the Government in this matter. I stated on the Second Reading of the Bill the perfect readiness of the Government to consider whether the framing of the Bill should be modified in the direction of placing a larger number of the members of Borough and County Councils on the Education Committees. Since then I have on many occasions declared in this House and in the country that the Government do favour any change in the Bill which would tend in the direction of making a majority on these Education Committees a majority of the Council itself. So much for our declaration in the past. Now, as to the actual merits of the case. We are all agreed that the true ideal we ought to aim at is that there should he a majority of the Council on the committee. The only difference between us is as to whether we should lay down an absolutely rigid rule upon that subject or not. I am quite clear that it would be the height of folly on the part of this House, not having before it, and incapable of having before it, all the varying circumstances of the local authorities of this country, to make any such rigid declaration as that which the hon. Gentleman desires. I am informed that there are County Councils who think it would be quite impossible to carry on the work thrown upon them by this Bill if they are required to have a majority of their own members on the committee.
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: Hear, hear.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The right ham Gentleman opposite gives to that an ironical cheer, and he seems to think that there is no such difficulty. I should rather hope that this was not the opinion of hon. Gentlemen opposite in their less controversial moments. I thought it was one of the main factors in the case for Home Rule—whatever may be the merits or demerits of that policy—that before we get to Home Rule there is to be some method of training in regard to the duties now being thrown upon existing local authorities. If that is one of the things upon which the various sections of the Liberal Party are agreed, it is hard to attack us because we are taking a step in that direction by asking these great authorities to deal with the work of education. I had no intention of dragging these high Party politics into what I consider a purely business subject. It is from a business point of view that I appeal to, the Committee. What would he our position if we passed this Bill with the rigid declaration which hon. Gentlemen opposite desire, and then found that this or that County or Borough Council could not carry out the work entrusted to it because we laid upon it this condition? We should look exceedingly foolish, and the work of education in that area would be greatly hampered. I cannot think that the dignity and efficiency of this House would gain by placing itself in a position of that kind. Surely this arrangement—I will not call it a compromise—is the right arrangement. We laid down in unmistakeable characters on the face of this Bill that what we desired to see was a majority of the Council on the Education Committee, but as we contemplate the possibility that there may be eases where that is an impracticable course, like sensible men we say that after all the education authority—Borough or County Council, as the case may be—is the best judge, and must be allowed a loophole of escape if the rigid system puts them into an impossible situation. I hope, Sir, that will commend itself to the Committee as a common-sense plan, but it seems to me that the danger of allowing ourselves to be hurried away by any over-mastering affection for a purely

  321
  theoretical ideal is so great that confusion and difficulty would arise if County Councils or Borough Councils could not carry out the burden of work we are putting upon them. I must ask the House to consider this as a question vitally bound up with the practical character of the Bill.
  MR. BRYCE: Will the Attorney General give us an answer to the question put to him about the scheme by the hon. Gentleman opposite?
  SIR ROBERT FINLAY: With regard to the question put to me by the hon. Member for North Birmingham, the scheme should contain a provision that the majority appointed by the Council should he members of the Council unless the Council should otherwise determine.
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: The right hon. Gentleman opposite first laid down what he considers a valuable principle, and then he provides what he has described in a very accurate phrase as "a loophole of escape" from that principle. The loophole of escape is one which very many of us will feel is the one which will most likely be generally adopted, especially in the rural counties, and what I fear is that in these counties the loophole of escape will become the rule and not the exception.
  MR. TREVELYANsaid this was one of the Amendments put before the Birmingham Unionist Conference, and the verdict was that they were almost unanimously in favour of it, for the "Noes" were only one. They knew that the Government did not pay much attention to the opinion of Birmingham in this matter, for a much more important resolution passed at the Unionist Conference was in regard to assistant teachers, and that recommendation was summarily rejected by the right hon. Gentleman the Premier. The reason why they proposed to omit those words was that they considered them as a very small improvement on the original proposal of the Bill. Of course there was no real danger in those counties interested in education that they would not appoint a majority of actual members of the
  322
  Council upon the committees. They were really arguing from those counties that were indifferent in regard to the working of the educational system. It was only too likely that a county would say, "We won't take any trouble, but put the matter into the hands of those who understand it, such as clergymen and school teachers, and we will let them run our business for us." It was just those counties that would escape their duty by making use of this exemption. The result of this would be that people would be as indifferent in regard to education as they were before, and the whole matter would be left in the hands of the small ring who now run the County Councils. He did not believe in unelected persons. There was a great deal to be said for the learned men who were not elected, but it a man really cared about education he would not, mind putting up for the County Council election. He did not think that any very large number of people would be excluded by leaving the committee to be entirely composed of county councillors. That was not however, the proposal of the Bill. There was still half of the Education Committee under the present proposal who would not be county councillors. All they were asking for now was that the majority should consist of county councillors, and all the rest could still be chosen from the outside.
  CAPTAIN BALFOURsaid the Government had made great concessions in regard to the managers, and it was now clear that the managers would have very little power at all left in their hands. [OPPOSITION laughter.] Hon. Gentlemen opposite laughed, but that was quite true, although it was a question which they need not go into again. Now they had come to the constitution of the Education Committees, and he supported very strongly the proposal that it would be desirable that a majority of the members of the committee should be county councillors. The hon. Gentleman opposite had alluded to the Birmingham resolution, but he wished to point out that that resolution was passed before the discussions on this particular point in the Bill had taken

  323
  place. It was perfectly clear now that the Education Committees would be just as much under the control of the County Councils as the managers. This was not so when the resolution was passed at the Birmingham Conference. Many hon. Members had doubts as to how much power the committee was to have, but now it was clear that every report would have to be passed by the local education authority. He failed to understand the criticism of the right hon. Gentleman opposite that the local education authority was not a popularly elected body. He thought they were agreed that it was desirable that the majority of the Education Committee should be county councillors. But in large counties there might be two or three Education Committees, and there might be an insufficient number of councillors to provide the majorities. Therefore, it was a question of convenience and of the practical working of the Bill, and he thought the Committee would do well to carry out the proposal of the Government.
  DR. MACNAMARAsaid the First Lord of the Treasury had argued that if a large Council were compelled to have a majority of their members on the Education Committee together with their present work they would have too much to do. He had himself used that argument as a reason why the School Boards should not be abolished.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the Councils could do the work under the provisions of the Bill, but not under the provisions of the Bill as the hon. Member proposed to amend it.
  DR. MACNAMARAsaid he was now using the argument as against the argument for the abolition of the great School Boards. The Prime Minister appealed to the Committee from the business point of view. He and others appealed to the right hon. Gentleman three months ago from the business point of view, but the Government determined to municipalise the local control. It had been said that that was the original idea of Mr. Gladstone's Bill. But if they were going to municipalise control they must do it thoroughly. They must not have a spurious form, as they would have under
  324
  this Bill. The least they should insist upon was that the majority of the members of the Education Committee should be members of the Municipal Council. That was the plea of the famous. Liberal Unionist conference two or three weeks ago. The Birmingham Unionists had not gained then point in regard to the management of the schools, and he believed they were in a worse position now than they were before.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the hon. Member had left out of account the fact that the Amendment passed this afternoon made the Borough Councils and the County Councils supreme in all elementary education.
  DR. MACNAMARAsaid he admitted that the education authority was to be supreme, but the work was so great that they must devolve their powers, and there was no popular control unless they insisted that the Education Committee should be a representative committee. The committees could not be representative unless the majority in all cases were members of the municipal authority. The Government Bill of 1896 insisted very properly that a majority of the members of the Education Committee should be members of the municipal body. That also was the scheme of the Government Bill of 1890. In the Secondary Education Bill of last year it was quite specific that it was not to he left to the municipal people themselves to say whether they would do it or not, there was no loophole, they were placed under obligation in all cases to have a majority of the committee members of their own body. He said, with all respect, that it was not sincere for the Government to state that they were giving popular control if in the next breath they handed the whole thing over by delegation to another body, unless that body had a majority of representative people.
  SIR JOHN GORSTsaid the issue was whether they would tie up the hands of the Municipal and County Councils, with whose local circumstances they were imperfectly acquainted, or whether they would leave this question to be decided by the Municipal and County Councils. The county of Middlesex, outside London, contained a number of large urban

  325
  districts, and he understood it was the opinion of a great many persons on the Middlesex County Council that the only way in which this Act could be efficiently worked was by having, not one committee, but separate committees—a committee for all the great urban districts which would have the control of their own elementary instruction. It was quite impossible for the County Council of Middlesex to find a sufficient number of members to give them a majority on all these Committees. This plan, which the Middlesex County Council thought best, would have to be abandoned if the Committee insisted upon a majority of all these committees being members of the Council. The Council might evade the clause by putting in nominal members who were understood never to attend.
  MR. YOXALLsaid the difficulty to which the right hon. Gentleman had alluded could be dealt with by Clause 15 of the Bill, which empowered devolution. He did not think objections put forward in the First Lord's speech were worth consideration in this matter. But he gathered that the First Lord was disposed to make this a Party question, and that he would regard the rejection of this particular Amendment to be a matter of importance. He desired to remind the right hon. Gentleman that he had already given the House a pledge on this point. The Prime Minister, in the Second Reading debate on the Bill, intimated that he would leave the decision of the subject to the House.
  THE CHAIRMAN: That quotation has been already given once or twice. [An HON. MEMBER: "It is not the same quotation."] I would remind the hon. Member that there is a Standing Order against repetition.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University, was an argument against his own Bill of 1896. If it was mischievous to tie up the hands of the local authority now, he should like to know why the right hon. Gentleman introduced the proposal in 1896. Middlesex was in existence then.
  SIR JOHN GORST: I am wiser now.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEhoped that before the end of this debate the right hon. Gentleman would be wiser still, and that he would be able to support the Amendment. The words "unless the Council shall otherwise direct" made absolute nonsense of the Government's own Amendment. The insertion of those words, "unless the Council shall otherwise direct," was perfectly meaningless. This was a very characteristic concession of the Government. To satisfy the Birmingham Liberal Unionists, the Government said that the majority of the members of the Education Committee should be members of the Council; and then to satisfy the opponents of public control, the Government added "unless the Council shall otherwise direct." By the text of the Bill the Council could, if they chose, appoint an Education Committee of their own members, and all that the Amendment did was, by a system of tautology, to give them the same power. The object of this was, of course, to mislead public opinion outside.
  MR. M'KENNAsaid that under the Clause, first, all matters were to be referred to the Education Committee, except rating, and second, all powers could be delegated to the Committee, also except rating. Now, unless the Amendment were accepted, no single member of the Council need be a member of the committee, and if the committee were to have all the administrative powers, financial control was divorced from administrative control. When the Bill was introduced, that was the one thing which, it was said, the Government were going to set their face against. He asked the First Lord whether the Bill carried out the intention of the Government in placing financial and administrative control in the same hands. Unless the right hon. Gentleman accepted the Amendment he would be controverting the primary principles of the Bill, and failing to carry out the pledges given on the Second Reading.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSthought that the observation of his hon. friend was perfectly just, and ought to be carefully considered, especially by the late Vice-President of the Committee of Council

  327
  Did the right hon. Gentleman think that in a Bill of this kind, which was creating an educational authority, it should be made possible that in appointing a committee not a single member of the authority should be on that committee? As his hon. friend the Member for the Northern Burghs had pointed out, the concession was no concession at all. They were enjoined to trust the people. The Secretary to the Board of Education said, "I tell you from the University of Oxford that the people ought to be trusted!" The position of the opponents of the Bill was perfectly sound on this matter. The Government were creating a new education authority; they had been preaching to the local authorities that it was their duty to look after the education of the people; but what was the use of now saying that these bodies might be too busy to look after the education of the people? If the sub-stratum of the Bill was sound, they ought to say to the local authorities, "We shall not delegate these educational duties to others." For his part, he was opposed to bringing in outsiders. [An hon. Member on the MINISTERIAL. Benches: What! no woman?] Certainly no woman. He was, however, not going to forestall the discussion on that matter. He had always voted against the extension of the franchise to women. His opinion was that women did anything whatever better than men in administration or government. He insisted that in creating these educational authorities they were insulting them by saying that they should attend to their duties. The result of the Clause would be that the committee might be composed of men outside the education authority. Take, for instance, the County Council of Gloucester, of which the right hon. Baronet who sat for one of the Divisions of that county was the Chairman. They knew what the right hon. Baronet's views were, and that if he had his way, not one member of the County Council would be appointed to the Education Committee. He would say to the members of the County Council. "You stay with me here and take care of the rates; we will put someone else on the Education Committee." It might be said that
  328
  Was a fantastic illustration, but it was possible. Was it not fair to say to these new authorities, "You must choose out of your own number the best men you can; you must man your committee in such a way that you will be responsible to us for carrying out the functions of the Bill." Everyone who desired to see the efficient working of the Bill, and the extension of the best education of all children should, he thought, vote for the Amendment.
  SIR JOHN BRUNNERsaid he would press on the right hon. the Attorney General to say whether it should ever be possible for an Education Committee to be appointed which contained no single member of the educational authority upon it. Was that the decision of the Government?
  SIR ROBERT FINLAYsaid that the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite had declared that in some cases they might not have on the Education Committee a single member of the Council, and characterised that as fantastic. He said that the suggestion was really preposterous.
  MR. ELLIS GRIFFITHsaid it was preposterous that that should be possible.
  SIR ROBERT FINLAYsaid he would not waste one moment more in discussing it. The Clause indicated that in a normal and proper state of things, in the absence of special circumstances, there should be a majority of members of Council on the committee. That was indicated as an ideal state of things; but what they recognised was that there might be cases where that could not be secured. Where the members of the County Council were regular in attendance they insisted that there should be a majority of the committee members of the County Council, but if they were not regular in attendance, the controlling power would pass into the hands of experts.
  SIR JOHN BRUNNERsaid he again asked an answer to the question: Was it the decision of the Government that it shall ever he legally possible that the committee should not contain a member

  329
  of the education authority? It was due to the House that the Attorney General should answer that question.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid that the question had been very courteously put to the Attorney General. There was nothing offensive in it, and the right hon. and learned Gentleman might answer it.
  SIR ROBERT FINLAYsaid the question assumed that some Council was going to do something that was obviously absurd. [OPPOSITION cries of "Oh, oh"!] The Government intimated by this Amendment that the proper thing was, in the absence of special circumstances, that the majority of the committee should be members of the Council. The question assumed that the Council were going to be so ridiculous as
  to appoint the whole of a committee on which there was not even one member of the Council.
  SIR JOHN BRUNNER: Can they do it?
  SIR ROBERT FINLAY: As an abstract question of law the thing might be done.
  SIR JOHN BRUNNER: That is the Government's decision.
  SIR ROBERT FINLAY: It is perfectly ridiculous to throw out the suggestion.
  (6.43.) Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 233; Noes, 125. (Division List, No. 481.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gandner, James Tynte

  Chaplin, Et, Hon. Henry

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Chapman, Edward

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Aird, Sir John

  Charrington, Spencer

  Greene, Sir E. W. (Bury St. Ed.)

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E.

  Gretton, John

  Arnold-Foster, Hugh O.

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Groves, James Grimble

  Bagot, Capt. Joceline FitzRoy

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Guest Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Hain, Edward

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Balcarres, Lord

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J.(Manch'r

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Hamilton, RtHn Lord G(Midd'x

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Haubury, Rt.Hon.Robert Wm

  Balfour, RtHn Gerald W. (Leeds

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir FredDixon

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick George

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Doughty, George

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Beresford, Lord Charles William

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Bignold, Arthur

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Helder, Augustus

  Bigwood, James

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Henderson, Sir Alexander

  Bill, Charles

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. SirJ.(Manc'r

  Higginbottom, S. W.

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Finch, George H.

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Brown, Alexander H (Shropsh.

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Bull, William James

  Fison, Frederick William

  Hoult, Joseph

  Butcher, John George

  Fletcher, Rt. Bon. Sir Henry

  Howard,John(K'nt,Fayersh'm

  Campbell, Rt Hn.J.A.(Glasgow

  Flower, Ernest

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

  Carew, James Laurence

  Forster, Henry William

  Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Foster, PhillipS.(Warwick,S.W

  Jebb, Sir Richard Clarverhouse

  Cantley, Henry Strother

  Gardner, Ernest

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derhyshire

  Garfit, William

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

  Johnstone, Heywood

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Kemp, George

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Gore, Hon.S.F. Ormsby-(Linc.)

  Kennaway.Rt, Hon. Sir John H.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon.J.(Birm.

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Kenyon, Hon George T(Denbigh

  Chamberlain, RtHnJ. A. (Wore

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Kenyon-Slaney, W.(Salop.

  Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Kimber, Henry

  Knowles, Lees

  Murray, Rt Hn.A.Graham(Bute

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Smith, H.C(North'mb Tyneside

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

  Myres, William Henry

  Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Lawson, John Grant

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway,N.)

  Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

  Lecky, Rt. Hon. William Edw. H

  O'Doherty, William

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareham

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Talbot, RtHn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Lockie, John

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (Bristol,S

  Purvis, Robert

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Pym, C. Guy

  Valentia, Viscount

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H. (Sheff'ld

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Rankin, Sir James

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Welby, Lt. -Col. A. C.E(Taunton

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Whiteley, H(Ashtonund. Lyne

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Renwick, George

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis(Edinburgh W

  Ridley, Hon. M.W.(Stalybridge

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Massey- Mainwairing, Hn. W. F

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

  Maxwell, WJ. H (Dumfriesshire

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Robinson, Brooke

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Milvain, Thomas

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Wylie, Alexander

  Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.)

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  More, Robt. Jasper(Shropshire)

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Morgan, David J. (Walth'mstow

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Mount, William Arthur

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Sinclair, Louis (Rumford)

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther

  NOES

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Allan, Sir William(Gateshead)

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Allen, C. P. (Glout., Stroud)

  Fenwick, Charles

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. HerbertHenry

  Fitzmanrice, Lord Edmond

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. HerbertJohn

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

  Bond, Edward

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Brigg, John

  Grant, Corrie

  Moss, Samuel

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Newnes, Sir George

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William

  Norman, Henry

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Harwood, George

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Burns, John

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seele-

  Palmer, Sir Charles M.(Durham)

  Burt, Thomas

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Caine, William Sproston

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Partington, Oswald

  Caldwell, James

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Cameron, Robert

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Pickard, Benjamin

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Cawley, Frederick

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Charming, Francis Allston

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Rigg, Richard

  Cremer, William Randal

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Jones, David Brymnor(Swansea

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Lambert, George

  Runciman, Walter

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Shackleton, David James

  Dunn, Sir William

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Edwards, Frank

  Leng, Sir John

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Elibank, Master of

  Levy, Maurice

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Ellis, John Edward

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Emmott, Alfred

  Lloyd-George, David

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Evans, Sir FrancisH. (Maidstone

  Logan, John William

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  332

  333

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Walton, John Lawson(Leeds,S.

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.

  Spear, John Ward

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Spencer, RtHn. CR (Northants

  Wason, Eugene

  Woodhouse, Sir J T(Hudderrsf'd

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  White, Luke (York. E.R.)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Whiteley, George(York.,W.R.

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Thomas, F.Freeman-(Hastings)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Mr. Ellis Griffith and Mr.

  Thomas, JA (Glamorgan, Gower

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth

  Trevelyan.

  Resolution agreed to.

  Words inserted.
  MR. HUMPHREYS-OWENmoved to omit sub-Section (b). This omission, he urged, was desirable in the interests of the harmonious working of the system. It was important that no section of the members of a committee should be regarded as persons who were fighting the battles of extraneous bodies. The Committee must remember that when a similar scheme was made for the Welsh County Councils, the fullest concession was made to the feeling of the localities. There the appointment of denominational and outside bodies was entirely with the goodwill and assent of the members of those bodies themselves. In England it would be entirely different. County and Borough Councils had the gravest apprehensions, and even went so far as to deny the right of outside bodies to interfere in any way. It was necessary, if these Educational Committees were to be successful, that they should be harmonious in spirit, and that there should be no sectional feeling between the different classes of members on the committee. The County Council, too, would no doubt subsidise secondary schools, and it would be most anomalous if schools which migh receive subsidies were to nominate members who might afterwards have to dispense such subsidies.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 4, line 35, to leave out sub-Section (b)."—(Mr. Humphreys-Owen.)
  Question proposed, "That the words 'for the' stand part of the Clause."
  SIR ROBERT FINLAYhoped the hon. Member would not press his Amendment. The majority of the members of a committee would clearly be appointed by the Council, but it was desirable that there should be a power of calling in other "persons of experience in education," and "persons acquainted with the needs of the various kinds of schools in the
  334
  area" to which they were attached. The Committee would see they would have the ordinary state of things, a majority of the Council on the committee, and the duties to he discharged by the committee. If they desired, in the discharge of their duty, to have the assistance of the class of persons mentioned in the sub-Section, they were entitled to have it. The adoption of this Amendment would strike out a Clause which would enable them, in all cases, to secure such assistance if required.
  MR. HERBERT LEWISsaid he thought the Attorney General had not stated quite accurately the effect of this Amendment. The hon. and learned Gentleman had said that it was desired to give the Councils power to call in persons to assist them. He submitted that this was a mandatory instruction to them to do so. If the Council should have the option as had been argued, why should the option not be given under paragraph (b)? He submitted that this was a mandatory instruction to the Council, whether they thought it wise or not, to add a number of extraneous persons to the governing body of the school. Why should not the Government be consistent in this matter, and act upon the principle of trust in the representatives of the people which they had themselves professed in dealing with the last Amendment?
  MR. BRYCEasked what meaning the Government attached to the phrases "persons acquainted with the needs of the various kinds of schools in the area," and the nomination by "other bodies." What was in the mind of the Government? These were somewhat objection able words.
  SIR ROBERT FINLAYsaid the words first quoted by the right hon. Gentleman were perfectly clear, and surely it was desirable that a committee should have the assistance of persons who were familiar with the schools of the various

  335
  denominations. With regard to the expression "other bodies," he instanced Owens College as one of the bodies from whom nomination might be desirable.
  MR. BRYCE: Would such a body as the association of voluntary schools of a particular denomination come within these words?
  SIR ROBERT FINLAY: I think we had better discuss that when we get to the words.
  MR. BRYCE: But might it? Is it legally possible?
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: Will the words include the Primrose League?
  SIR JOHN BRUNNERsaid the hon. and learned Member had not dealt with the point raised by the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire as to the probability of a number of representatives on the Education Committee being appointed by the grammar schools. He personally was a governor of a grammar school, and if appointed on the Education Committee would be thoroughly acquainted with the needs of that particular grammar school. But all that that grammar school needed was money, and he might be chosen to serve on the committee in the belief that he would be able to exert influence that would result in more money being obtained from the County Council for the grammar school. Within recent years there had been an awakening of public opinion with regard to the conduct of members of public bodies suspected of using their position for their personal advantage. In the case of the grammar school, the representative would probably be a subscriber, and if he could get more money from the County Council it would relieve his own pocket. A man who had no pecuniary interest to serve might be excused if he felt in honour bound to obtain as much money as possible for the school he represented, but it was because he desired to keep our local government and local institutions pure and above suspicion that he pressed the point on the attention of the Committee.
  MR. ROBSONsaid the character of the motive of this Bill
  336
  was perhaps more clearly shown in the sub-Section under discussion than in any other. The Committee had heard from the Government their intention with regard to the sectarian schools, viz., that those schools were to remain under sectarian control. But hitherto, parallel with that system in England we had had a system of school government in the hands of the people, under which it was in the power of the people if they felt so disposed to exclude from the government of the national schools all sectarian elements, or to admit those sectarian elements under safeguards as to the fair treatment of all schools. The Government now proposed to deprive the people of that power, and to set up an education authority which was not to he allowed to constitute itself on a popular basis. It was even suggested to the authorities that they need not have a majority of members of the local education authority on the Education Committee, and they were now informed that they must provide for the nominations of other bodies. They were to part with their powers and give them to other bodies, which were not named in the Bill, but which the Attorney General candidly stated were to be of a sectarian type.
  SIR ROBERT FINLAY: I did not say-they were to be exclusively of a sectarian type.
  MR. ROBSONsaid the last thing the Attorney General would say was that they would be exclusively of a sectarian type, but he did intimate that they would come from the Wesleyans and Catholics—he was not certain whether he mentioned the Church of England, or whether him candour carried him so far as to name the diocesan associations, which were really the other bodies contemplated in the section. The Government had done better than capture the School Boards; they had destroyed them, and the new authority was being put under an obligation, as clearly expressed as the Government dared in a statute, to allow the sectarians to select those who were to control the schools provided and maintained out of the rates. Upon what principle could the Government justify the proposal that the ratepayers, when they had founded and were maintaining a school, were not to govern that school, but that the so-called education authority

  337
  were to part with their powers to denominational sect, who might be wholly out of sympathy with popular feeling? If the Government were determined to keep the sectarian schools at the public expense, they might, at any rate, let the schools founded and exclusively maintained by public funds remain under national and not sectarian control. Not only were other bodies to have a power of nominating members on the education committee, but there were to be appointed persons acquainted with the needs of the various kinds of schools in the area for which the Council acted. "The various kinds of schools" simply meant the denominational schools, so that the education authority was invited, almost commanded, to delegate part of its powers over rate-supported schools to sectarian associations. That was the meaning of the Bill in every one of its Clauses, but it was for once clearly expressed here and admitted by the Attorney General.
  MR. ERNEST GRAYsaid the hon. and learned Member for South Shields was usually so fair-minded that one could only conclude that he had not really carefully read the Clause The words were clear. The local authority need not consult anybody; it was not necessary that other bodies should nominate. The effect of the hon. and learned Member's speech was that the Government were setting up an authority a large portion of which would necessarily he on the nomination of sectarian bodies. But that was not the effect of the Clause at all. It was only where the local authority deemed it desirable that bodies should be invited to nominate. The only compulsion was that of appointing some other persons who were not members of the Council, and they might appoint such persons on their own selection without the whatever. They might do exactly as the Hertford County Council had already done in anticipation of the passage of the Bill. That Council had appointed, to assist and advise them as to the best methods of carrying out the Act, a committee consisting of a majority of members of the County Council, with a number of person whom they themselves selectd—experts in education, having direct knowledge of
  338
  the needs of the district, and four persons nominated by a society on the invitation of the Council.
  An HON. MEMBERS: What society?
  MR. ERNEST GRAY: The organization of Teachers for the County of Hertford, a non-political and non-sectarian organization. No committee could have been better designed for the work, and what had been done by the Hertford County Council would, in his judgment, be done by many other County Councils when the Bill came into operation.
  It being half-past Seven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again this evening.

  EVENING SITTING.
  SUPPLY—REPORT—[5TH NOVEMBER.]
  Resolution reported:—

CIVIL SERVICES (1902–3), ADDITIONAL ESTIMATE.

  CLASS V.
  "That a sum, not exceeding £8,000,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, for a Grant in Aid to the Transvaal and the Orange River Colony, for expenses consequent upon the termination of the War."
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSONsaid there was no opposition to be raised, so far as he knew, in any quarter of the House, but the Vote was so large and important that it should not pass without the House having full information on some points upon which doubts had arisen. He therefore proposed to ask two or three questions. His first point was that there was an impression in the minds of some people that half the sum of£3,000,000 had already been expended, but he understood that the money had been paid out by the Treasuries of the Transvaal and Orange River Colonies, and would be repaid when this Vote was sanctioned. Only in that sense had there been an anticipation of the Grant.

  339
  The other point was that mainly on account of the somewhat confused manner in which the Estimate was presented, it was not quite clear how the £3,000,000 in the third item was to be apportioned. Items one and two were of the nature of free gifts to the burghers and loyalists respectively, but as to the third item he wished to know if the sum was to be apportioned between the two classes. He understood the Colonial Secretary to say that this amount would be advanced by way of loan to burghers of a better position who could afford to pay interest after a period of two years. He noted in passing that the right hon. Gentleman had carefully guarded himself from saying that the sum of £3,000,000 was a final estimate of what was likely to be required. He made no objection to that. This was the point he desired to have cleared up, whether the advances by way of loan were to be made to burghers only, and not to other persons referred to under the second head. If this was the intention he could scarcely reconcile it with the ambiguous statement in the Estimate, which treated the third head of £3,000,000 as supplemental to the first two heads. The House ought to be told distinctly what was to be the real destination of this last sum. Another point was in reference to the loan. That was intended to be ultimately a charge on the revenues of the Colonies, and he desired to know if the Government could inform the House of the method by which this burden would be imposed on the Colonies. The King by virtue of his Prerogative, could, within certain limits, impose taxation on the Colonies by Order in Council, or create a Government in the Transvaal with power to do this, and, as bearing on the question he desired to ask, he referred to Article 7 of the terms of surrender, in which it was stated that military administration shall at the earliest possible day be succeeded by civil government. What was the status of the Government of these Colonies at this moment? Had the military administration been superseded by civil government? Was it intended to levy taxation to meet the expenses of the loan by Order in Council, or would this be deferred until civil government was established?
  MR. LOUGHsaid that as he was not present on the previous night there were one or two points he would like to raise in the interests of economy, and from the standpoint of the British taxpayer. It had been perfectly obvious since last May that they would have to meet the first and last items of the Vote. He thought they had got excellent value for the £3,000,000, which was the outcome of a definite contract they had made with their gallant enemies whom they had defeated in the field, but they could not be sure that the items were sufficiently large. On the whole he felt that the statements of the Colonial Secretary were satisfactory, especially as he had promised to keep an open mind. There was a difficulty as to the £2,000,000 which had never been explained. There had been no contract to pay that sum which, as he understood it, was to compensate the people in our own Colonies whose farms had been destroyed by the Boers, and who had suffered from war's desolalation. But apparently it was to be mainly given to those who were called the loyalists in the Transvaal. He was not going to suggest that anybody who had suffered severe loss should not be liberally compensated, but as far as he understood it the Government were suggesting that the people for whom we undertook this war had as great claims for compensation as those whose farms had been destroyed. Johannesburg was not destroyed, and the people who went down to Durban were able to get good salaries. There had been great loss through the war, and the taxpayers should not be asked for more than was necessary. In conclusion he would again ask for a clear statement as to the proposed appropriation of this £2,000,000.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. RITCHIE, Croydon): The hon. Member for Dundee has put to me one or two questions, which I shall do my best to reply to. I think his main question was as to whether the £3,000,000 was to be in the way of an advance to both the burghers and the loyalists, or to the burghers alone, and he seemed to think that something that was said by my right hon. friend last

  341
  night was open to some misunderstanding. I have no hesitation in assuring the hon. Gentleman that the sum is intended to be available for the burghers and the loyalists.
  MR. LOUGH: Is that the particular loan referred to?
  MR. RITCHIE: Yes, the loan at the low rate of interest. I think the hon. Gentleman is under some doubt as to whether this sum was to be devoted to the burghers alone or also to the loyalists.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: The Colonial Secretary said the burghers.
  MR. RITCHIE: I cannot go into the speech, but I am sure my right hon. friend never intended to convey that. It would be little less than monstrous if we were to make loans to the burghers for the purpose stated and not to those who are our friends. There is no question whatever as to that.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: Do not understand me to be arguing against that.
  MR. RITCHIE: Of course not. The speech of the hon. Member is entirely in the other direction. I understood from him that he was rather apprehensive that it should have been so.
  MR. DALZIEL: Was that the three millions provided for in the terms of surrender?
  MR. RITCHIE: No. The amount fixed in the terms of sure ender was, as already stated, a free gift. The three millions was allocated as a free gift, and then there was an indefinite sum arranged for by way of loan at a low rate of interest. That is the item to which the hon. Gentleman has directed my attention, but he need be under no apprehension on that point, whether the loans amount to three millions or more; they would be available for the loyalists and burghers. Then, Sir, the hon. Member asked what method will be adopted for distributing the loan amongst the burghers, and he seemed to be under some apprehension that there might be some sort of military interference—that the money would be distributed by some military authority.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: No; I merely asked the question as to Article 7.
  MR. RITCHIE: I thought the hon. Member also asked whether the military administration was to deal with the three millions.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: I did not mean that.
  MR. RITCHIE: I understand it so. Of course, we act under the advice of Lord Milner. We shall place this loan on the market when a favourable opportunity arises.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: By what authority?
  MR. RITCHIE: By what authority! On our own authority.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: By an Order in Council?
  MR. RITCHIE: No; by our own authority. We shall place the loan on the market, but, of course, we shall have first to get a Bill through this House. We shall have to obtain an Act of Parliament to enable us to guarantee the loan, and then there will have to be an Ordinance in South Africa after the Bill is passed. The loan will then be put on the market, and the three millions will, of course, be repaid to the Government, who advanced the money. The hon. Gentleman for West Islington takes quite a different view from that held by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Dundee. He has nothing whatever to say with regard to Nos. 1 and 3. The one thing he objected to was the two millions to be advanced to the loyalists, and I am sure the House will think the expression he used a very extraordinary one to apply to a matter of this kind. He said that we were not under a contract to do anything for the loyalists. I hope it does not require any contract. It is a plain duty on the Imperial Government to treat those who have been our friends in South Africa certainly not worse than our enemies. That, I should imagine, requires no explanation, and certainly no contract. We consider that we have a moral obligation on our shoulders to see that these men who have stood our friends in South Africa shall not be worse off than those who have been our enemies;

  343
  and if there is to be any distinction made between the two, I am quite sure that the balance ought to be in favour of those who stood, our friends. The hon. Gentleman has told us about certain gentlemen who came down from Johannesburg and were enjoying themselves at Cape Town. What did these men want compensation for, he said. When the compensation is given, I presume there will be discrimination as to the allocation of the money.
  MR. LOUGH: That is what I asked.
  MR. RITCHIE: But the hon. Gentleman seemed to think that because these men were allowed to leave Johannesburg they suffered no injury. Those loyalist friends of ours who have suffered in any way by the war will, so far as our ability goes, be compensated quite to the full, as much as those who have been our enemies. The hon. Gentleman asked what was to be done with those who have suffered from the war in Cape Colony and Natal.
  MR. LOUGHasked upon what principle the distribution of the grant to the Transvaal and the Orange River Colony rested.
  MR. RITCHIE: We are in consultation with Lord Milner on that subject. All this expenditure will be subject to the supervision of the Comptroller and Auditor General, and we shall have to give a full account of the way in which the money is expended; but to ask me now to tell the House the exact mode by which we have arrived at our calculations as to whether two millions is sufficient or not is to ask more than I can possibly answer. It is sufficient to say that in these matters, as in all other matters, we have been acting in consultation with Lord Milner. I thought my right hon. friend's observations last night were perfectly explicit. I have here a note of what my right hon. friend said, and I will read it to the hon. Gentleman—
  "He wanted to know why this two millions was asked for. Well, Sir, the two millions has nothing to do with the loans in Natal and Cape Colony. For those we have provided otherwise. We have undertaken with the Government of Natal to repay to them the compensation which they have given to those loyal subjects who were injured by the invasion.
  344
  And we desire and intend that it shall be given on a liberal scale. We have also agreed that a contribution shall be given to those loyal subjects who in the Cape Colony have suffered by the first invasion. I say the first invasion, because we consider that in the case of the second invasion the responsibility lies with the Colony itself. But with regard to the compensation which we are to give in the Cape Colony, we have expressed in the clearest terms our determination that not one penny of imperial money shall be given to compensate those who have rebelled against the Imperial authority."
  That is the policy which my right hon. friend enunciated yesterday, and that is the policy of the Government. I think I have now answered all the questions put to me.
  MR. LABOUCHEREsaid he hoped that the right hon. Gentlemen opposite would no longer talk of loyalists. He hoped all were loyalists now, and he thought it would be better that the use of the word should cease. He was glad to hear the reply which had been given to his hon. friend by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. His hon. friend wanted to know what discrimination was to be exercised in giving this £2,000,000 to "other persons." The Colonial Secretary told them that only those burghers who were nearly in destitute Circumstances were to have any claim upon the £3,000,000, but he did not say that in regard to those other persons. A great many persons had suffered by the war in England as well as in South Africa. Business told trade had been injured, no doubt, in South Africa. For instance, the mines. They could not he carried on. Were they to understand that these £2,000,000 were to be granted only to persons in a destitute condition, or could anybody put in a claim as having suffered by the war? Mr. Beit, for instance; could he put in a claim for his portion of this £2,000,000? His hon. friend on the Front Bench had asked what was the nature of the present government in the Transvaal. He thought that was germane to this question, because the present Government would have to make conditions in regard to this loan. The Chancellor of the Exchequer appeared to have forgotten that question. Was the present form of government in the Transvaal a military Government? Was there a Council there to act with Lord Milner, or could Lord Milner issue what law he liked, and were those laws binding on the Transvaal people?
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! I stopped the hon. Member for Dundee when he was proceeding to discuss the mode of Government, and the hon. Member will not be in order in pursuing that subject.
  MR. LABOUCHEREsaid he only wished to look at the matter as a purely financial one. They were asked to provide this £3,000,000, and they were told that it was to be by means of a loan which the Transvaal Government was to pay, but which this country was to guarantee. What security had they got that the people of the Transvaal would take this obligation upon themselves?
  MR. RITCIHE: No security is required. All that will be necessary is an ordinance of the Transvaal Government.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: Then there is to be no security, and the only guarantee is to be an ordinance of Lord Milner? That is all I want to know.
  MR. KEMPsaid they had heard that compensation was to be paid by the Cape Government to those loyalists who had suffered by the second invasion. Seeing the present temper of the Cape Government, he would like to know if such compensation was not given by the Cape Government, bow it would be paid.
  MR. LABOUCHEREsaid he desired to know if his hon. friend was in order, because it was stated in the debate that ultimately they would have to assume this responsibility.
  MR. BRYN ROBERTS (Carnarvonshire, Eifion)said the Colonial Secretary stated yesterday that these notes would be regarded as evidence.
  MR. SPEAKER: I do not understand the hon. Member's point of order. He is asking whether a certain item is to be included in this £3,000,000.
  MR. LABOUCHEREthought the hon. Member opposite alluded to a statement made by the Colonial Secretary that the indemnity to the loyalists at the Cape was not included in this Vote, but that ultimately this country would have to assume the responsibility for that indemnity.
  MR. KEMPsaid he simply wanted to know if compensation was not given by the Cape Government, whether compensation would be given to those loyalists out of the present Vote.
  MR. SPEAKER: I do not think the hon. Member can enter into that question now, because this Vote is for a particular purpose.
  THE MASTER OF EMBANKasked whether it was intended that the notes issued by the late Transvaal Government under Law No. 1 of 1900 to the amount of some £750,000 should be honoured. A Mr. Schalk Burger informed him the other day that when he left the conference they were distinctly under the impression that those notes were going to be honoured. There was no doubt that the Boer leaders would be considerably discredited if the obligations entered into at the time of peace were not carried out.
  MR. SPEAKER: This question does not arise. The Vote is one for money to supply necessaries for the resumption of their normal occupations, provided by Article 10 of the terms of surrender. Therefore I do not see how the question referred to by the hon. Member can arise.
  THE MASTER OF EMBANKsaid he understood that the question of these notes came under Law No. 1 of 1900, and was referred to by the Colonial Secretary last night.
  MR. SPEAKER: I am simply looking at the matter as it appears upon the Paper, and I do not think that the question as to the liability of the Government for these notes is concerned in this Vote.
  MR. LOUGHstated that these notes were mentioned in the terms of surrender, and this was a Vote to meet the j requirements of the terms of peace.
  MR. SPEAKER: But it does not say that the £3,000,000, is for the purpose of enabling the Government to redeem liabilities which, it is alleged, have been incurred by them upon these documents.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: But it has reference to war losses.
  MR. BRYN ROBERTSsaid the Colonial Secretary stated yesterday that these notes would be regarded as evidence of losses, and that being so, he contended that they would come under this Vote of £2,000,000. [MINISTERIAL cries of "No, no."] The Colonial Secretary said he would not regard these notes as legal notes which could be sued upon, but as evidence of losses sustained by the burghers and losses which were to be compensated out of this Vote.
  MR. SPEAKER: If the Colonial Secretary stated that the Government proposed to pay these notes out of this Vote, then it will be in order.
  THE MASTER OF ELIBANKsaid he was under the impression that the Colonial Secretary had referred to these notes as evidence of war losses. He suggested that when the Colonial Secretary visited South Africa he should inquire into the question of these notes, as it was the cause of bitter discontent throughout the Transvaal. The right hon. Gentleman referred in his speech last night in glowing terms to the state of the Transvaal. He was afraid that when the right hon. Gentleman visited the Colony he would be disabused on that point. The tangle in which matters were there justified the visit of the right hon. Gentleman, in order to assist Lord Milner in bringing about a better state of things. Repatriation was sadly hanging fire. Only one-fifth of the people in the concentration camps had so far been repatriated, chiefly owing to the miserable railway system. As one who had opposed Lord Milner's policy in South Africa, he was glad to testify to the conscientious manner in which the noble Lord was now carrying through the difficult task he had in hand.
  MR. CHANNINGsaid he represented a district in which there was a number of large firms interested in commerce both in Johannesburg and Pretoria. At the outbreak of the war these firms suffered heavy losses. They had declined to remain and carry on dealings with the Boer Government, and their stock
  348
  had been confiscated. He wished to know how they stood with regard to this £2,000,000 for other persons. He wished for an explanation as to whether any of this £2,000,000 would be distributed amongst such firms as he had referred to. In regard to the general topic he heartily supported what fell from the Leader of the Opposition last night as to the advisability of treating all parties with absolute and transparent equality and justice in the distribution of these funds for putting South Africa on a working footing again.
  MR. ALFRED DAVIESsaid he wanted some enlightenment upon one or two of the items on the Paper. Item No. 1 consisted of "free grants of" £3,000,000 for burghers, and item No. 2 was "grants of" £2,000, 000 for other persons. Did that mean that the money granted under No. 2 item would be repaid, and if it did not mean that why was the word "free" omitted therein? He took the omission of the word "free" to be a clerical error, and that both amounts were "free grants." He hoped they would all vote this money, for if they could get South Africa happy by a gift of £5,000,000 and a loan of £3,000,000, they would be very fortunate. He looked upon this as a most important matter, for it was necessary that they should have South Africa in a happy state. In his opinion Africa was one of the richest countries under the sun. America was a prosperous country, but he thought Africa in the near future was likely to be more prosperous than America. He hoped they would vote this money and any other sum that was asked for for this purpose, because he believed that for every million pounds spent in South Africa now, they would save ten or twenty millions hereafter.

  WAYS AND MEANS—REPORT—(5TH NOVEMBER).
  Resolution reported—
  "That towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, the sum of £8,000,000 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."
  Resolution agree to.
  Bill ordered to be brought in by the Chairman of Ways and Means, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Hayes Fisher.

  CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) (No. 2) BILL.
  "To supply a sum out of the Consolidated Fund to the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, and to appropriate the further Supplies granted in this Session of Parliament," presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time tomorrow.

  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [MR. JEFFRKYS (Hampshire, N.) in Chair.]
  Clause 12:—
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 4, line 35, to leave out sub-Section (b).—(Mr. Humphreys-Owen.)
  Question again proposed, "That the words 'for the' stand part of the Clause."
  MR. MOSSsaid he supported the Amendment on various grounds, but mainly because the Section was vague and meaningless, and would, if it stood part of the Bill, lead to endless friction and dispute. The hon. Member for North West Ham had said that the Clause was very clear. It seemed to be clear in one respect only, and that was that the direct representatives of the ratepayers would be compelled, at the dictation of outside bodies, who were not described to accept for the educational committees gentlemen who were suggested by the outside bodies. The sub-Clause was a compulsory one. As he read it, it gave to the Council no option, because it said that the scheme "shall provide" for the appointment by the Council, on the nomination, where it appeared desirable, of other bodies, of persons of experience in education. He should like to know from the First Lord or the Attorney General who those other bodies were. For anything he know, when those words came to he interpreted they; might mean religious
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  bodies. They had no guarantee now that the other bodies would not be religious or political bodies. He should like also to know what was meant by the "needs of the various kinds of schools in the area for which the Council acts." Were they financial needs or the needs for larger accommodation for the scholars. It seemed to him that it was one of the vaguest of the many vague Clauses in a very vague Bill.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid it appeared to him that hon. Members opposite were trying either to misunderstand or to misrepresent this Clause. It was really very simple in its character, and it was designed to give the education authority the best advice it could get. He was never quite sure whether, when hon. Gentlemen opposite professed Clause, it was that they did not know or did not want to know what the Clause really meant. Generally speaking, the purpose of this Clause was not by any means to import sectarian influences or interests into the Education Committee or the local education authority, but to secure that every educational interest in the area was represented. The appointment in every case was by the Council. In certain cases the Council might think it desirable to invite certain educational bodies or societies within the area to nominate members. Such bodies, for example, as the governing body of the High School for Girls, the Ladies' Training College, or the local societies for the higher education of women might he suitable bodies to be invited to nominate persons to take their place on the Education Committee. These persons would be nominated by the societies invited, if they were willing to make a nomination, and it the persons so nominated would be appointed by the local education authority. It was hardly possible to conceive, when a County Council invited the governing bodies mentioned or others to nominate some one to represent their educational interests, that they would be guilty of the discourtesy of refusing to appoint them. Still, in the last resort, the County Council would have the right to say, "Your particular nominee is so

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  wholly unsuitable, unclubbable, or un-educational, that we must ask you to nominate someone else or give it up."
  MR. BRYCEasked for an explanation as to the position of the Board of Education in the matter.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid that of course the scheme would come before the Board of Education, and surely it was the business of the Board to have regard to any representation which might be mad to them by other bodies which thought they ought to have been invited to nominate representatives. Under those circumstances it would be the duty of the board of Education to inquire whether they should be represented, and if the Board thought them worthy of being represented, they would suggest to the local authority to consider whether they ought to be invited to nominate representatives. The local authority might say that those bodies were already adequately represented. Surely there was nothing improper of derogatory to the local education authority in saying that persons or bodies who were left out and thought themselves aggrieved should be able to state their case to the Board, that the board should be able to put their case to the local education authority, and that the matter should be discussed and finally arranged by conference between the board of Education and the local education authority. Unless hon. Gentlemen opposite supposed that the whole object of the Board of Education was in some way to put a slight on the local education authority, he could not conceive what complaint there could be against bringing the influence of the Board to bear on the subject. It would require all the good temper, ingenuity, and experience, both of the local education authority and the Board of Education, to get this Bill into working order. So much for the "other bodies." He hoped the term had been explained, and that the process of nomination had been explained, if not to the satisfaction, at any rate to the intelligence of hon. Gentleman opposite. Surely again it was no disparagement to the local education authority that they should be invited to look out for "persons of experiences in
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  education" who might be within the area, and who might not be persons on the governing bodies or within the sphere of nomination of the societies he had named, but who would, nevertheless, be able to give valuable assistance to the Education Committee in the carrying out of its functions. Persons of experience were to be found in almost every area, and might very well be invited to course the scheme would come before take part in the work of the Education Committee. It would be the business of the local education authority to look out for such persons, and the Board of Education might he able to assist the local education authority in calling attention to such persons. Then there were the persons acquainted with the needs of the different kinds of schools. There were many persons interested in education, and especially the administrative part of it. It was desirable to have persons on the governing body who had taken part in the management of committees for technical instruction, and who should be asked to take part in the work of Education Committees. This was another type of the persons who should be invited by the local education authority; and tins Clause indicated the way in which substantial assistance could be given by all sorts of people outside the principal body, and who ought to be on its Education Committee. The object of Bill was to provide that the majority of Education Committee should be members of the County Council, but the County Council might not be able to produce the persons either representative of educational societies or of practical experience of education, or actively engaged in the management or government of schools. But this Clause reminded the local education authority that these were the persons whom it ought to place on its Education Committee; and the persons of this class would be of real assistance to the local education authority in the discharge of their functions. Whether they were the interests of particular sectarian schools, and he frankly admitted that sectarian interests might require to be taken into consideration, or whether they were the general interests of education he was confident that those interests would be loyally borne in mind, and the

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  best help would be given to the local education authority which the Committee could give.
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURTsaid he had listened to the very clear exposition by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education, of what the functions of the Education Committee were to be. The more he had listened to the speech of the hon. Member the more confused he found the plan of the Government, and the greater the friction that was likely to arise. What was the definition of bodies He thought that if the Government had said "souls" it would have been appropriate, but it would be better, in his opinion, to have societies, which were not the same thing as bodies. "Educational bodies" could be understood, but he pictured the case of a dissatisfied body, rejected by the County Council, who went to the Education Department. The education authorities might propose, but the Education Department disposed, and the practical working of the Government plan was this, that the education authority might reject the bodies who desired to be invited, and then a reference was made to the Education Department whether or not a particular body ought to be invited. Therefore there would be three conflicting bodies—first of all, the education authority which did not invite the body that desired to be invited, and the Board of Education, to which the question was referred whether that body ought to be invited or riot. The hon. Member had very frankly said that these might be sectarian bodies. They knew very well what sectarian bodies were. If a sectarian body claimed to have seats on the committee, and the Education Department were appealed to, the Secretary might refuse to approve the scheme unless this sectarian body were represented on the committee. This would be an extremely disagreeable situation for the education authority to be placed in. The committee would have to be re-nominated every year, at all events every two or three years, and sectarian controversialists might he forced on the Education Committee. He could not conceive anything more disastrous to education that the rival claims of those bodies.
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  Take the word "society." He did not know whether they would call a University a "society." He should hardly think that the representative of Oxford University would call it a society.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSON: It is a learned body.
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: Is that so in a statutory sense?
  SIR WILLIAM ANSON: A body-corporate.
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: Very well. Did tin t- propose to put a body corporate on the committee? They must come to some definition and form some idea as to what was to be the limitation of this Education Committee. They were throwing open to competition every form of society, or congregation, or sect to, come forward and make their claim to seats on this committee, and then, when the education authority wished to have none of them, they might appeal to the Education Department, and that Department might refuse to approve the scheme unless this sectarian body were represented on the committee. He was afraid be might be open to the charge of re-iteration, but he maintained that this was another illustration of the manner in which the Government failed to trust their education authorities to do that which, if they were sensible people, they would certainly do, if allowed to look after it, themselves. To impose upon them this bondage, with the accompanying disputes and turbulence which would be created by such a state of things, was most undesirable. It would be one of the things which would give these municipal bodies a distaste of having all these liabilities on their shoulders. It should be the endeavour of the Government to persuade these municipal bodies that their task was a comparatively light one. Why should they not suppose that these authorities would have the intelligence, without the directions which were proposed, to look out for so much or so little assistance as they thought they required? [Cries of "Divide."]
  MR. WALTER PALMIERsaid he believed he was one of many on that side of the House who had refrained from taking any part in these discussions, for one very simple reason, viz., that they did not wish by talking to delay for one single minute the more rapid passing of this measure, but he thought that on this very vital point undue silence might be wrongly construed. Sub-Section (b), he maintained, was one of the most vital points in the Bill, because it raised the whole principle of co-optation. He thought it would have been more generous on the part of the right hon. Gentleman opposite if, instead of going into the minute details as be had done, he had plainly stated whether he was, or was not, in favour of co-optation.
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURTsaid he would answer the question at once. He believed in co-optation at the discretion of the Council. Let the Council choose to get such assistance as they thought most appropriate.
  MR WALTER PALMERsaid that there were one or two reasons why he thought it extremely necessary that they should adopt this extremely important principle of co-optation which underlay this sub-Section. In the remarks made hitherto the question of secondary education, which he considered the most important part of this measure, had been entirely lost sight of. He knew something of how the money under the Local Taxation Account Act of 1890 was distributed by the County Council, and he knew of instances in which a large proportion of the money was given to certain institutions. He could give one instance from the district with which he was particularly acquainted. In that district the sum of £1,600 was received from the local taxation account, and of that amount £1,100 was given to one institution of which he happened to be chair man. This institution was connected with the Municipal Council, and they expected to be represented on the Education Committee. He thought the distribution of this money might be taken as a criterion of the future action of the County Councils. It was of supreme importance that these various
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  institutions should have a fair representation on the Education Committee, because, after all, the whole success of elementary education, as well as of secondary, depended upon the training of the teachers. Therefore, the bodies engaged in training teachers should be represented on the committee. He should like to suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education that the word "nomination" was too strong, and might be modified to "representation." It was absolutely impossible to introduce any words which would limit the County Council from accepting nominations from religious or sectarian bodies. It was playing with the matter to talk of this sub-Section as vague and unmeaning, because it was one of the most important parts of the Bill, inasmuch as it introduced the principle of co-optation.
  MR. ELLIS GRIFFITHsaid that the Secretary to the Board of Education had made a very serious charge against that side of the House in alleging that they were attempting to misunderstand or misrepresent the Bill. Now, in regard to misunderstanding, it had taken the hon. Gentleman a quarter of an hour to say what this particular section meant, and he trusted that they, on that side of the House, might be forgiven if it took them a little time to understand it. The point between them was very simple. As the Bill now stood the committee must consist entirely of outsiders; there need not be a single member of the County Council on the committee; but it could not possibly consist entirely of insiders. All they asked was that it should be a genuine co-optation by the County Council. The Secretary to the Board of Education said that the appointment by the Council would be formal. If so, where would the real appointment come in?
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid the appointment would be formal in the sense that as soon as the education authority invited a society to send a representative to the Education Committee, the circumstances would be most exceptional under which it would be necessary for the Council to refuse to accept the nomination.
  MR. ELLIS GRIFFITHsaid that it seemed to be not enough to trust the people, or to give them experts on the committee, but by this sub-Section they were to have representatives of different societies who would thus acquire a locus standi at the Board of Education. He submitted that under this scheme of the Government they would have interminable strife. He did not believe in tying the hands of the County Council behind its back. He would trust the County Council to select the best men under the circumstances. He would be satisfied with co-optation depending on the free will of the County Councils, but not a spurious co-optation.
  MR. BROADHURST: said he asked the Secretary to the Education Department whether he would accept the word "representative" before "bodies" in the second line of the sub-Section? That would be much more satisfactory than having retired schoolmasters or retired military officers on the committee. "Representative bodies" would include representatives from friendly societies, trade unions, trades councils, and, as a counteraction to the head masters, they might also get representatives from the Poor Law Guardians, and the licensing authorities. (Cries of "Divide.") This was a very serious matter; surely he might make a suggestion. He did not wish to interfere with the progress of the Government; in fact he was coming to their help in this matter. It was a notorious fact that elementary education had been most successfully conducted in this country by persons who previous to School Board management, had had no experience in education. School Board schools were infinitely superior in every respect to those which had been managed by experts. In fact there had been an entire failure of the expert. The expert was usually a fraud, and a snare into the bargain. In 1898 the right hon. the Member for Cambridge University said that the educational-experienced person was generally an utter failure in elementary education.
  SIR JOHN GORST: I ant not conscious that I ever said that, or anything approaching that.
  MR. BROADHURSTsaid that if the Committee would adjourn for a sufficient time to enable hint to go to the library to look up the quotation he would find it. (Cries of "Divide.") He wanted to point out to the Secretary to the Board of Education that popular education would be facilitated if representative public bodies were represented on the Committee.
  MR. BRYN ROBERTSsaid that if the right hon. Gentleman intended that the Council should ultimately have absolute discretion as regarded the denominational bodies to be invited-would he allow words to be introduced into the Clause to make that interpretation clear? In that case their objection would be met. He highly approved of the interpretation which the hon. Gentleman, the Secretary to the Board of Education, had given, but he was sadly afraid that it was not an accurate interpretation, and that it would be possible, under the Clause as it stood, for a scheme to be framed, in the last resort, by the Board of Education, and that the County Council would be obliged to appoint whoever was nominated by the denominational bodies. It might be that the hon. Gentleman did not intend that, but he maintained that such a scheme would be legal if made by the Board of Education. The words were that the County Council should invite particular bodies to nominate persons to represent their interests; and then it was provided that the County Council "shall,"—not "may,"—appoint such persons. He did not say that the Board of Education would frame such a scheme, but he did say that they could frame such a scheme. If, however, the words "at the discretion of" were introduced they would show clearly that the interpretations given by the hon. Gentleman was correct.
  SIR JOHN BRUNNERsaid he would appeal to his hon. friend to withdraw the Amendment.
  MR. HUMPHREYS-OWENsaid as he understood that it would be for the convenience of the Committee that the issue

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  should be taken on a subsequent Amendment, he would ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid, before the Amendment was withdrawn, it should be clearly understood that an opportunity would be given for discussing the point on another Amendment.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid there was nothing to preclude the discussion of the point on a later Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  SIR JAMES WOODHOUSEsaid he proposed to move the words "selection and" before "appointment." The object of the Amendment was to make co-optation entirely a matter for the County Council. sub-Section (a) dealt with the selection and appointment by the Council of at least a majority of the Committee; and sub-Section (b) proposed to include persons who had experience of education, but who were not members of the Council. The Amendment he proposed, which followed the language of sub-Section (a), was that the selection should be entirely in the hands of the Council. If he understood rightly the sense of the Committee, it was that the Council should be the determining authority as to the persons to be co-opted, and that was his sole point in moving his Amendment. He did not think that there could be any serious doubt in the mind of any member of the Committee that that was the true principle to be established.
  Amendment proposed:—
  "In page 4, line 35, after the first word 'the' to insert the words selection and.'"—(Sir James Woodhouse.)
  Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid it was quite impossible to accept the Amendment. He did not know if the hon. Gentleman quite realised its effect. He
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  was about to have said on the last Amendment, in answer to an hon. Member who asked him whether the actual appointment would be by the Council, that he had no doubt whatever that the Council would appoint the person nominated. He had said over and over again that when the Council had invited some society to nominate a person, it would find very great difficulty in not accepting that nomination. But the Council would only select a body which it was desirable should be selected, and consequently would presumably be prepared to accept its nominee; but they could not ask that society to send them samples of its members. Take a case which was very familiar to himself. He had been a member of the Council of the University of Oxford for a number of years, and that Council was constantly asked to nominate a member of the governing body of some community; but it was never asked to send to the body which invited the nomination three or four names to select from. He thought that the Council of any University would decline to nominate at all under such conditions; and it would reduce this nomination by a society to a perfect farce if they were asked to send groups of names for the Municipal Council to make a selection from. The appointment would be with the Council, and the Council would have the choice of the bodies to be invited to nominate.
  MR. BRYCEsaid he did not quite understand yet what was contemplated by the hon. Gentleman when he spoke of the Council having the right to invite these bodies. As he understood it, the Council would have no choice. The scheme would fix the bodies who were to nominate, and on their nomination the Council should appoint. For instance, a girls' training college might be entitled to nominate a person to serve on the committee. The Council would have no choice in the matter whatever, but must appoint the person nominated by the college. That was the meaning of the Clause, as he understood it. All the Council had to do was to go through the purely mechanical function of making the appointment on the nomination of another body. That was not a choice in any sense of the word.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid he thought that the right hon. Gentleman had overlooked the fact that these sub-Clauses were instructions for the composition of a scheme. The scheme would he the scheme of the Council, it would be made by the Council, and would be approved by the Board of Education. In making that scheme, the Council looked over its area, and selected certain bodies which it thought desirable to invite to nominate representatives on the Committee. Once these bodies were in the scheme, they would continue to make nominations in accordance with the scheme until it was altered, and the Council would appoint their nominees. Most distinctly, the choice of the society rested with the Council in the first instance. The nomination would rest with the bodies that would be invited, and the appointment would rest with the Council.
  Sir WILLIAM HARCOURTasked what would be the action of the Board of Education if the Council did not appoint anybody under this Section, or selected from bodies of which the Board did not approve.
  MR. ERNEST GRAYsaid he regarded the Clause as one of the best that could be designed to secure the object of the framers of the Bill, namely, the co-ordination of all forms of education. He would take the case of the county borough with which he was best acquainted—that of West Ham. There, they had three institutions, one controlled by the Council itself, one by a great city company, and one by the directors of the Great Eastern Railway. Overlapping was almost inevitable; and it was obvious, if money was not to be wasted, and if good educational work were to be done, that these three institutions should be brought into line, and that, under the Bill, they should be represented oil the Education Committee. The proposal before the Committee was that the Council itself should pick out the persons to represent these institutions on the Education Committee. [AN HON. MEMBER: "No."] What was the meaning of the Amendment if it was not that?
  SIR JAMES WOODHOUSEsaid that the object of his Amendment was that
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  the other bodies should be consulted, but that the Council should make its own selection.
  MR. ERNEST GRAYsaid that in the illustration he had given earlier in the evening he said that the County Council of Hertford did exactly what the Bill proposed. It asked the teachers of the county to nominate two persons; and that was what the Bill proposed. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no."] It was only a question of explaining the King's English. The Bill proposed that the Council should set forth in its scheme the various bodies it proposed to invite to nominate representatives to serve on the Committee. He had seen the system in operation. The County Council of Hertford asked the teachers to nominate; they did nominate; and their nominees were appointed. That was the meaning of the Clause. Unless the societies were asked to make the nomination, how could they get fit and proper persons to represent them? If a great educational organisation were to be represented on the committee, it was absolutely essential that the person chosen should possess the confidence of his colleagues. How could that he guaranteed unless he were chosen by them? Take the great institutions to which he had referred, which were doing most excellent work, and which had fitted up some of the best laboratories in the East End. How could it be guaranteed that the persons selected to represent these institutions possessed the confidence of their colleagues, knew the character of the work that was being carried on, and would be able to co-ordinate that work with other work in the district, unless they were selected by the persons whom they were to represent? The whole object of the Clause was to give bodies of that description power to pick out from among their governors the hest fitted and most experienced person to represent them on the Committee, men who would know what money was needed, how it should be expended, what were the capabilities of their own organisation, and how much they could bring to the common purse in educational effort and hard cash, towards the co-ordination of every bit of educational work in their area. That was the object of the Clause,

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  and he earnestly hoped that not merely the Government, but the Committee as a whole, would shut out from their minds the idea that the Clause was an attempt to bring in sectarian organisations. The scheme of the Bill was the scheme which for years past had been in operation in the great town of Zurich. Those who knew anything of the Swiss educational system would know that the scheme there was almost identical with the scheme of the Bill. Certain organisations within the town of Zurich were not merely invited, but were compelled, on given days, to select representatives; the names were submitted to the Town Council who appointed them; and the forces of the common-sense of the County Council, and the expert knowledge of the scientists selected, were brought together, with the result that the most democratic, probably the most socialistic, town in Europe, had one of the highest forms of education to be found on the Continent. It was time that we took a leaf out of the book of our Continental competitors, and, profiting by their experience, adopt a form of educational government which had done so much good for them, and which might be equally good for this country. He sincerely hoped that England would in future have a combination of common sense and expert knowledge to carry on the work of education; but he failed to see how it could he obtained except in the most praiseworthy scheme of the Bill.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he did not think that the hon. Member who had just spoken quite apprehended the objections which had been raised to the Clause. Their objection was that the power of selection was not given to the Council.
  MR. ERNEST GRAYsaid neither was it in Zurich.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he relied on the reports of the Education Department. If the hon. Gentleman said that in Zurich the Town Council had no right to select the bodies who were to nominate he said the hon. Member was wrong. If the Swiss Federal Government said,
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  "You have to select men to govern education in the town of Zurich from certain bodies we indicate," then the case would be analogous. All they asked for was that the great towns of England and Wales should have the same liberty that the hon. Gentleman approved of in Zurich. It was a great educational system in Zurich; but the hon. Member could not tolerate it in England and Wales. At any rate, let the hon. Member not quote Zurich, because Zurich was the Amendment of his hon. friend. Zurich selected its own bodies, but did the hon. Member mean to say that the County Council of Yorkshire, for instance, could select its own bodies? Suppose the Education Department said to the County Council of Yorkshire—"You have to elect representatives of other bodies, but we do not find them in the scheme you have provided." The Attorney General mentioned who these bodies would be — the Wesleyans, the Roman Catholics, and, lastly, the Church of England, because he supposed it was last in the mind of the right hon. Gentleman. Suppose the Education Department said to the County Council, "We do not find that the Wesleyans, the Roman Catholics, or the Church of England have got a representative under your scheme." Did the hon. Member mean to say that in that case the Board of Education could not oppose that scheme?
  MR. ERNEST GRAY: Yes, I say so.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid that if the interpretation of the hon. Member was correct, he should support the Amendment of his hon. friend. Suppose the. County Council of Glamorgan did not put on the Committee as many representatives of the denominational schools as the Board of Education thought satisfied the requirements of the case, and that the Board of Education wrote to the Council saying, " We decline to sanction your scheme until you put on further representatives of the denominational schools"—
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Every scheme has, of course, to be approved by the Board of Education.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid that, of course, the Education Department might also reject a scheme. Unfortunately, the hon. Member opposite would not be the authority to decide on these schemes. It would be the Government that would interpret the Clause, not even the Court of Appeal. Moreover, under Section 5, scheme had not been made and approved within twelve months, the Education Department could make a scheme of its own.
  MR. ERNEST GRAY: Subject to the approval of the House of Commons.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid that the Education Bill showed what the House of Commons might approve. What he wanted to know from the hon. Member was what became of the Zurich analogy and the Zurich independence in the Bill now. But the hon. Gentleman should not really drop Zurich, as it was very useful. The hon. Member, who had studied the matter very closely, who was more fully acquainted with the provisions of the Bill than any unofficial Member on the other side, who was an expert, the sort of man they wanted to bring in under sub-Section (b), who had studied educational systems, not only in this country but in Zurich, was absolutely in conflict with his own leaders as to the meaning of the Bill. How could ordinary laymen on a County Council, even with the aid of experts, interpret the Bill when experts in the House of Commons disagreed as to its meaning. The hon. Member said that the Committee should dismiss from its mind altogether the notion that the Clause was a plot in order to bring in the voluntary schools. That certainly was not their notion. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Aberdeen asked the Attorney General to tell the Committee what these other bodies were. The Attorney General said that they were bodies interested in education, and, with that reluctance of his race, he said at last that they would be Wesleyans, Roman Catholics, and Anglicans. That was not their notion; and he wished to know why the hon. Gentleman opposite should point the finger of scorn at them, and say they had a certain idea when the
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  idea belonged to the attorney General They wanted know who these bodies were, and whether the County Council was to have the right of selection. Cooptation, which was forced, was no option. A great deal had been said about the Welsh Intermediate scheme. In that scheme, there were provisions for representation of the School Boards. What did that mean? It meant that the local ratepayers would be represented. There was no provision in the present Bill for the protection of the local ratepayers, or for the protection of the parent, and the only persons who were mentioned were members of bodies acquainted with the needs of the various kinds of schools. Who were they? They were the denominational mangers. There was nothing in the Bill to compel the Council to introduce into the scheme representatives of the District Councils or the Parish Councils, although a District Council might represent 10,000 ratepayers; but where four managers were concerned, special words were introduced in order to protect them. Who did they represent? They did not represent the ratepayer. They did not even represent their own denomination. They were not elected by that denomination; they were simply nominated either by the landowner or the local clergyman; and yet these four persons were to have the right of representation on the committee, whereas no words were introduced to secure representation for the Parish Councils and District Councils. He thought that was a very fair indication of the spirit in which the Bill was drawn. In fact, one could not take up a single section in the Bill without finding a provision for the protection of voluntary schools. There was the majority management of two to one; the appointment of teachers; the appeal to the Board of Education and the time which could be consumed; and, as if these things were not enough, they were also to have representation on the committee, although they were not responsible to any one, not even to the denomination they were supposed to represent.
  MR BOUSFIEDLsaid he did not known if it was too late to recall the Committee to the particular Amendment under discussion. They had had a general discussion on the Motion

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  to omit the Clause, and now they were having another general discussion. He gathered from the hon. Member who moved the Amendment that his object was to make clear what was already said to be clear, that the appointment of nominated members was to be in the hands of the Council. He did not, however, understand the difference between "selection" and "appointment." It had been indicated clearly by the Government that the Council would have a veto, as it were, on any such nomination as was contemplated in the Clause. He certainly understood that the appointment was to be in the hands of the County Council, and that the Council would not be obliged to accept any nomination from other bodies. He understood the hon. Gentlemen's object was to make that clear, and he admitted there might be some doubt about it. He therefore ventured to make a suggestion which he thought might meet with the approval of many hon. Members on both sides. He thought the word "nomination" was a somewhat unsuitable word, and he proposed to substitute for it the word "recommendation," in order to make it clear that the Council would be ultimately responsible for the appointment. The word "nomination" was generally used where the body who nominated had the absolute right to elect its nominee. He himself happened to be nominated by the London County Council as one of the governors of a technical institution in London, and the other governors had no power to interfere with such nomination. He suggested that what was proposed was really in the nature of a recommendation to the Council from these bodies, the appointment being with the Council. He doubted whether the insertion of the words "selection of" would alter the sense of the Clause, because he saw very little difference between "selection" and "appointment." It would be quite impossible to ask a body to send up a row of nominees, giving the County Council the right to select one of them, and he could not imagine that the hon. Member had any such idea in his mind.
  SIR JAMES WOODHOUSEsaid he intended to propose a consequential Amend-
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  ment which would make his meaning perfectly clear.
  MR. BOUSFIELDsaid he thought that the Amendment would introduce confusion, whereas the object the hon. Gentleman had in view would be attained if the word "recommendation" were substituted for "nomination." It would then be quite clear that the final appointment would be with the Council.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he wished to recommend to hon. Members that they should confine themselves to the issue before the Committee, and not go into drafting points. He quite agreed that drafting was not very easy, and he had no doubt that they might argue over words for a very long time. As to the actual point at issue, it would be left absolutely to the County Council or the Borough Council, as the case might be, to decide, without restriction or interference in any shape or form, what bodies should be invited. He did not, however, rise to argue the point, but to suggest that the Committee might decide that important issue now without going off into the minutiœ of drafting refinements.
  MR. ROBSONsaid that the speech of the Secretary to the Board of Education disclosed a singular misapprehension on his part as to the meaning of the Clause; and that, not in reference to drafting minutiœs which the Prime Minister had recommended the Committee not to discuss, but with reference to a matter of substance. The Secretary to the Board of Education said that the Council would have the power of appointing persons nominated by unknown bodies, and he went on to say that if the Council did not like a particular person who was nominated, it would be entitled to refuse to appoint him, and that the body concerned would be obliged to nominate another person. If the hon. Gentleman would consult the Attorney General, he would find that that was not the meaning of the Clause. The Clause was as imperative as any Clause could be. It was that the scheme "shall provide" for the appointment by the Council on the nomination of other

  369
  bodies. That meant that the Council must appoint the persons nominated by the other bodies. If it were really the intention of the Government that the Council should have power to refuse nomination, then they should have it clearly stated in the Clause, in which case his hon. Friend's Amendment would not be necessary. If it were intended that the Council should be entitled to say to anybody "Your nominee is not a persona grata to us, and we refuse to accept him," words should be inserted giving the Council the power of selection as well as of nomination, because that was what it amounted to. If the Secretary to the Board of Education were right, the Council had the power of selection or, at all events, the power of veto, but that was not in the Clause as it stood.
  SIR FRANCIS POWELLsaid he trusted that the Committee would give consideration to a word from him, as he was not a novice on that part of the question. The proposal of the Government to provide for nomination by other bodies was only adopting in an Act of Parliament a practice which had obtained with the Charity Commissioners and the Board of Education successively for more than thirty years. He had taken a note of the bodies who had nominated to the Technical Instruction Committee in his own experience. They were the College of St. John's (Cambridge), Victoria University, Owen's College (Manchester), the Yorkshire College (Leeds), and also institutions of a more local character, such as the Technical Colleges, Grammar Schools, and so on through a long series. All experience of the working of the system showed hi that infinite good resulted from it. The members nominated by the Victoria Univerity, Owens College,
  370
  and the Yorkshire College, were gentlemen of culture with a knowledge of educational subjects and thoroughly familiar with the needs of the various schools. Therefore, they were now simply placing on the Statute Book a practice which had been adopted by the central department in connection with secondary education for more than a generation, with eminent and conspicuous success. He did not wish to quibble on a question of language, but the word "nomination" was almost universally adopted already and with regard to the scheme itself, he would remind the Committee that the Council, in the first instance, would submit it, and that they would also have the power of proposing alterations from time to time. From his own observation he thought it was most desirable that other bodies should be brought in. The report of the Commission on Secondary Education also recommended that plan, and, therefore, he was justified in the statement that if the proposal were adopted it would, without doubt, be most successful.
  SIR BRAMPTON GURDONpointed out that every well regulated County Council had its committee of selection, just as had the House of Commons, and if the consequential Amendment of his hon. friend were carried it would be open to that Committee of Selection to communicate with the governing bodies of schools or other bodies which it might think proper to consult, and obtain from them the names of gentlemen whom they might wish to see on the Education Committee. That would be a much more convenient course than that of giving statutory sanction to a scheme, because a scheme once approved would stand hard and fast until repealed and

  371
  another substituted, whereas it would be in the power of the Committee of Selection, if they thought fit, at every election to vary the authorities from which they choose their experts, according to the varying importance of those bodies. That would be a much more convenient plan, and it would not in any way diminish the advantage of obtaining outside advice.
  MR. BRIGGasked whether the Board of Education was to have power to order the appointment of the persons nominated by outside bodies. If a scheme could not be approved without such nominations it followed that the appointment of certain members from outside would be absolutely
  necessary on the part of the Council before they could carry on their work. If, however, the Council had the power to select the bodies, in the first instance, from whom the appointments were to be made, much of the objection to the proposal would be removed. Under the Technical Instruction Act, 1889, the Council had powers of co-optation which had been freely exercised without any hitch whatever, and he could not see why a power which had been exercised with great discretion and wisdom should be interfered with.
  (11.38) Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 92; Noes, 194. (Division List No. 482.)

  AYES

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Allen, Charles P.(Glouc. Stroud

  Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D.

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Runciman, Walter

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Shackleton, David James

  Brigg, John

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Jones, David Brynmor(Sw'nsea

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Caldwell, James

  Labouchere, Henry

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Cameron, Robert

  Lambert, George

  Spencer, RtHn C.R.(Northants

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Lay land-Barratt, Francis

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Leese, Sir Joseph F(Accrington

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Cawley, Frederick

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.

  Chapping, Francis Allston

  Leng, Sir John

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  Cremer, William Randal

  Levy, Maurice

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Thomas, J.A(Glamorgan, Gower

  Davies, M.Vaughan-(Cardigan

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Wason, Eugene

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  White, Luke (York, E. R)

  Edwards, Frank

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

  Whiteley, George (York, W.R.

  Ellis, John Edward

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Whitley, J, H. (Halifax)

  Evans, Sir FrancisH (Maidstone

  Moss, Samuel

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan

  Newnes, Sir George

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Partington, Oswald

  Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersfi'd

  Grant, Corrie

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Rea, Russell

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Mr. Herbert Gladstoneand

  Harwood, George

  Rigg, Richard

  Mr. William M'Arthur.

  NOES

  Agar-Gardner, James Tynte

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Balfour, Rt. HnGeraldW(Leeds

  Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Beresford, Lord Charles Wm.

  Bignold, Arthur

  Gretton, John

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Bigwood, James

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Bill, Charles

  Groves, James Grimble

  O'Doherty, William

  Blundell Colonel Henry

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Bond, Edward

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Boseawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Hamilton, RtHn Lord (Mid'x

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Bowles, Capt. H. F.(Middlesex)

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Plummer, Waiter R.

  Brown, Alexander H (Shropsh.

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Bull, William James

  Henderson, Sir Alexander

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Butcher, John George

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Purvis, Robert

  Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbyshire

  Higginbottom, S. W.

  Pym, C. Guy

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Randles, John S.

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset,E.

  Rankin, Sir James

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Chamberlain, RtHn J.A.(Worc

  Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Chapman, Edward

  Hoult, Joseph

  Renwick, George

  Charrington, Spencer

  Howard John(Kent, Faversh'm

  Ridley, Hon M. W.(Stalybridge

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Hutton, John (Yorks, N.R.)

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon Arthur Fred.

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Johnstone, Heywood

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Kemp, George

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Cook, Sir Fredrick Lucas

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col.W.(Salop.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Keswick, William

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Cranborne, Viscount

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Sinclair, Louis (Rumford)

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Knowles, Lees

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Cust, Henry Jonn C.

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

  Smith, HC (North'mb, Tyneside

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.)

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Lawson, John Grant

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Doughty, George

  Lee, ArthurH.(Hants, Fareham

  Spear, John Ward

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Stanley, EdwardJas. (Somerset

  Durning Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Elliot, Hon A. Ralph Douglas

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Talbot, Rt. HnJG(Oxford Univ.

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Fellowes, Hon. AilwynEdward

  Long, Col. Charles W (Evesham

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. SirJ (Manc'r

  Long, RtHn. Walter(Bristol,S.)

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Fielder, Edward Brocklehurst

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Finch, George H.

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Valentia, Viscount

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Welby, Lt-Col A. C. E. (Taunton

  Fison, Frederick William

  Maclver, David (Liverpool

  Welby, Sir Charles G.E.(Notts.)

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Whiteley, H(Ashton-und.Lyne

  Forster, Henry William

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Foster, PhilipS.(Warwick,S.W

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H (City of Lond

  Milvain, Thomas

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

  Montagu, Hon.J.Scott (Hants.

  Wilson,A. Stanley (York,E. R.)

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Morgan, David J (Walth'mstow

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Wylie, Alexander

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Mount, William Arthur

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Greene, Sir EW(B'ryS Edm'nds

  Murray, RtHn A. Grallam(Bute

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Sir Alexander Acland

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.

  Myers, William Henry

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Gibbs, Hn. A.G. H. (City of Lond

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Gibbs, Hon. Vicary(St. Albans)

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Allhusen AugustusHenry Eden

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Mount, William Arthur

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Murray Rt Hn.A. Graham(Bute

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Murray, CharlesJ. (Coventry)

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Myers, William Henry

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy

  Greene, Sir EW(B'ryS Edm'nds

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  O'Doherty, William

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J. (Manch'r

  Gretton, John

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Balfour, RtHnGeraldW. (Leeds

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Groves, James Grimble

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Beresford Lord Charles William

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Bignold, Arthur

  Hamilton RtHn LordG(Midd'x

  Pretymam Ernest George

  Bigwood, James

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Bill, Charles

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Purvis, Robert

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Pym, C. Guy

  Bond, Edward

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Randles, John S.

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley

  Rankin, Sir James

  Bowles, Capt. H.F (Middlesex

  Henderson, Sir Alexander

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Higginbottom, S. W.

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Renwick, George

  Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset,E.

  Ridley, Hon. M.W.(Staly bridge

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Ritche, Rt Hon. Chas. Thomson

  Bull, William James

  Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Butcher, John George

  Hoult, Joseph

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derhyshire

  Howard, John(Kent Faversham

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.)

  Round, Et. Hon. James

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon.J. (Birm.

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A (Worc

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Chapman, Edward

  Johnstone, Heywood

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Charrington, Spencer

  Kemp, George

  Smith, HC(North'mb. Tyneside

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col W. (Salop.

  Smith James Parker(Lanarks.)

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Keswick, William

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Spear, John Ward

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Knowles, Lees

  Stanley, Edward Jas (Somerset)

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Strat, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Lawson, John Grant

  Talbot, Rt. Hn J.G.(Oxf'd Univ.

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Lee, Arthur H.(Hants, Fareham

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Tomlinson, Sir. Wm. Edw. M.

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick, N.S

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Valentia, Viscount

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Walrond, Rt. H n. Sir William H.

  Doughty, George

  Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

  Welby, Lt-Col A. C. E. (Taunton

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol,S.

  Welby, Sir CharlesG. E.(Notts.)

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Lowther, C. (Comb., Eskdale)

  Whiteley, H. (Ashtonund. Lyne

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Fergusson, RtHn Sir J. (Manc'r

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Maclver, David (Liverpool)

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Finch, George H.

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Wylie, Alexander

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Maxwell, W J H(Dumfriesshire

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Fison, Frederick William

  Milvain, Thomas

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Forster, Henry William

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Sir Alexander Aeland

  Foster, PhilipS.(Warwick,S. W

  Morgan David J(Walthanastow

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther

  NOES

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Cameron, Robert

  Allen, Charles P.(Glouc., Stroud

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Cawley, Frederick

  Brigg, John

  Caldwell, James

  Channing, Francis Allston

  376

  377

  Cremer, William Randal

  Labouchere, Henry

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Lambert, George

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Davies, M.Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Edwards, Frank

  Legg, Sir John

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Ellis, John Edward

  Levy, Maurice

  Spencer, RtHn. C. R. (Northants

  Evans, SirFrancisH (Maidstone

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen,E.)

  Ferguson. R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Tkomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Thomas, David Alf. (Merthyr)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Morgan,J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Thomas, JA (Glam'rgan, Gower

  Grant, Corrie

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Moss, Samuel

  Wason, Eugene

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Newnes, Sir George

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Harcourt, Rt. Hn. Sir William

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Whiteley, George(York, W.R.)

  Harwood, George

  Partington, Oswald

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Rea, Russell

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R)

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Woodhouse, Sir JT(Huddersf'd

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Rigg, Richard

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Robson, William Snowdon

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Mr. Herbert Gladstone

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Runciman, Walter

  and Mr. William M'Arthur.

  Jones, David Brynmor(Sw'nsea

  Shackleton, David James

  MR. A. J. BALFOURrose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question That the words of the Clause to the first word "of," inclusive, in page 4, line 36, stand part of the Clause,' be now put."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 188;
  Question put, "That the Question That the words of the Clause to the first word "of," inclusive, in page 4, line 36, stand part of the Clause,' be now put."
  Noes, 90. (Division List No. 483.)
  (11.59.) Question put accordingly.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 190; Noes, 90. (Division List No. 484.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Henderson, Sir Alexander

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Higginbottom, S. W.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Cust, Henny John C.

  Hobhouse, Henry(Somerset,E.)

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Hogg, Lindsey

  Atkinson. Rt. Hon. John

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Doughty, George

  Hoult, Joseph

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Howard, John(Kent,F'versham

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Durning Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Hutton, John (Yorks, N.R.)

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J. (Manch'r

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Balfour, RtHnGerald W.(Leeds

  Followes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. SirJ. (Manc'r

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Johnstone, Heywood

  Beresford, Lord Chas. William

  Finch, George H.

  Kemp, George

  Bignold, Arthur

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W.(Salop.

  Bigwood, James

  Fishier, William Hayes

  Keswick, William

  Bill, Charles

  Fison, Frederick William

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon, Sir Henry

  Knowles, Lees

  Bond, Edward

  Forster, Henry William

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Forster, PhilipS.(Warwick ,S. W

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Bowles, Capt. H.F. (Middlesex)

  Gibbs, Hn.A.G.H. (CityofLond.

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Gibbs, Hon Vicary (St.Albans)

  Lawson, John Grant

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Lee, Arthur H.(Hants, Fareham

  Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Goulding Edward Alfred

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Bull, William James

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Butcher, John George

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire

  Greene, Sir E W (BryS. Edm'nds

  Loner, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Long, Col. Charles W.)Evesham

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

  Long, Rt. Hn.Walter(Bristol,S.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J.(Birm.

  Gretton, John

  Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn.J.A(Worc.

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Chapman, Edward

  Groves, James Grmble

  Lucas, ReginaldJ. (Portsmouth

  Charrington, Spencer

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Hamilton. RtHn LordG (Midd'x

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Maxwell, W.JH (Dumfriesshire

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Milvain, Thomas

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley

  Montagu, Hn.J. Scott (Hants.)

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Morgan, David J(Walth'mstow

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Renwick, George

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Ridley, Hon. M.W.(Stalybridge

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Mount, William Arthur

  Ritchie, Rt. Hon Chas. Thomson

  Valentia, Viscount

  Murray, RtHnA. Graham (Bute

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E (Taunton

  Myers, William Henry

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts,

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Whiteley, H.(Ashton und. Lyne

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  O'Doherty, William

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon C. B. Stuart

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Smith, HC(North'mb. Tyneside

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.)

  Wylie, Alexander

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Spear, John Ward

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset

  Purvis, Robert

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Pym, C. Guy

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Rankin, Sir James

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Ratch, Major Frederic Carne

  Talbot, Rt. Hn.J G(Oxf'dUniv.

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  NOES

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Harwood, George

  Rigg, Richard

  Allen, Chas. P.(Glouc., Stroud)

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Roberts, John H (Denbighs)

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Brigg, John

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Runciman, Walter

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Shackleton, David James

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Caldwell, James

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Cameron, Robert

  Jones, Dvd. Brynmor (Swansea

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Camphell-Bannerman, Sir H

  Labouchere, Henry

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Spencer, Rt.Hn. C.R(Northants

  Cawley, Frederick

  Leese, Sir Jsph.F (Accrington)

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Long, Sir John

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Levy, Maurice

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Davies, M.Vaughan- (Cardigan

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Thomas, JA (Glamorgan, Gower

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  M`Kenna, Reginald

  Trevelyan, Charles Phillips

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Wason, Eugene

  Edwards, Frank

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Ellis, John Edward

  Morgan, J.Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Whiteley, George(York. W.R.)

  Evans, Sir Fras. H. (Maidstone)

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Moss, Samuel

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Newnes, Sir George

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Wilson, Henry J (York, W. R.

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Partington, Oswald

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T (Hudd'rsf'd

  Grant, Corrie

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Philipps, John Wynford

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Rea, Russell

  Mr. Herbert Gladstone and

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Mr. William M'Arthur

  It being after Midnight, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
  Committee report Progress; to again Tomorrow

  EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL.
  Considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment; to be read the third time Tomorrow.

  SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE BILL [LORDS.]
  Considered in Committee, and reported, with Amendments; as amended, sit to he considered Tomorrow.
  Mr. SPEAKER,in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 16th October last, adjourned the House without Question put.
  Adjourned at a quarter after Twelve o'clock.