§ 1. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding 620 £1,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, for a grant in aid of the Revenue of the Island of Cyprus."
§ (9.0) SIR ALBERT ROLLITsaid he hoped that the House would allow him to endeavour to interest it for a short time in relation to the affairs of the island of Cyprus, as he had promised deputations of the inhabitants of Limassol and other towns to bring certain matters under the attention of Parliament at any opportunity, as he had done more than once previously. No doubt, for Imperial reasons, Cyprus had been neglected, and even promises which had been made had not been performed, in some respects in a material degree. But the present Colonial Secretary had not only initiated the principle and practice of colonial development, but had said that any such peaceful policy would, and ought to, be remunerative; and he thought he would be able to show that so far as the policy had gone in the case of Cyprus it had proved so. While, no doubt, we had great commercial and other interests in the Far East, there were interests equally worth consideration in the nearer East, and his experience in European and Asiatic Turkey, in Syria, in the adjacent islands, and in the Balkan States, etc., led him to attach importance to both political influence and trade in relation to those neighbourhoods. It was quite time,—bearing in mind the action of Russia, France, and Germany, in relation to the development of their trade in Eastern Europe, where they were outpacing us, as at Damascus, Beirut, Smyrna, and, even Constantinople, not only politically, 621 but in respect of commerce, railways, and public works—that we carefully considered our position in regard to those districts and to the adjacent island of Cyprus. Historically and otherwise the island was full of interest for the British people, and he was glad that a law had just been proposed in the Legislative Assembly with the object of protecting the ancient monuments and other antiquities, which constituted such an attraction to visitors and which had been much despoiled and removed. If steamer communications with Egypt were more direct, more frequent, and more regular he was quite satisfied that it would prove of the greatest service both to this country and to Cyprus, which had constituted an excellent sanatorium for our troops from the Soudan, and which might also become a popular health resort for our army and civilians in Egypt, whose Khedive had visited it. There was no place better suited for such purposes on the shores of the Mediterranean, and he was confident that if this were done and the resources of the island were developed, its export trade to Egypt in fresh and perishable provisions and in animals, would be very greatly increased. And, as to animals, Cyprus was especially suited to the breeding of mules and donkeys, for military and other work.
He would not again dwell on the question of the payment of the annual tribute of some £90,000 to Turkey. The Colonial Secretary had already heard what they had to say on that subject, and apparently was not disposed to listen favourably to the suggestion for the remission of that great incubus, that millstone, but for which Cyprus would have a large surplus revenue, (instead of deficits and grants in aid), which could be devoted to public works. But still, this tribute arrested the development of the island, and was a grievance which ought to meet with some equitable solution. But there was one point on which at least he would like to get the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman. During the last debate on the subject, the Colonial Secretary had told him that negotiations were pending for the redemption or conversion of the tribute, so as to effect a saving of interest, and he did hope that 622 those negotiations would prove beneficial, not only to Great Britain, but also to the island, and this at no distant date. And though obdurate on the question of the tribute, and perhaps bound to be more so at the present moment of war, he was also bound to pay to the Secretary of State for the Colonies a tribute of deserved praise for the developments and improvements effected in the island on his initiative. Much of the work had already produced excellent results and would prove very remunerative, and he hoped that the experience gained would induce even further extensions of the policy in the near future. He could imagine some hon. friend asking what was the use of the island to this country and declaring that the acquisition of it had been a mistake. There might be some force in the latter suggestion, but we took the island under certain conditions for Imperial considerations, and while we remained there we had a duty to perform to the inhabitants whose affairs we were administering. He ventured to say Cyprus was an object lesson in the value of the plan of colonial development, and amply justified both the Colonial Secretary and Parliament itself. What had been done and its results were a credit to Britain and a profit to Cyprus, and there was thus a mutual interest. Cyprus was an agricultural country dependent almost entirely upon a proper supply of water. The rains, though as a general rule adequate in most parts of the island, sometimes failed at the necessary physiological moment, that of the formation of the grain, and the results were droughts and disasters, owing largely to deforestation and waste of water in the sea, due to the physical configuration of the country. These evils, however, might be counteracted by the means which the right hon. Gentleman was helping to promote. While last year there was an abundant harvest of wheat, barley, carobs, and feeding stuffs, this year a considerable portion of the island had been threatened with drought, though now the danger was over and most parts had been saved; and, where such was not the case, relief works would be commenced, and advances of seed-corn would be made on a plan which had 623 answered well, viz., that of making such advances repayable in kind plus one quarter for the use. And, thanks to the arrangements made by the right hon. Gentleman, afforestation was taking place, including mulberry planting for the silk trade. There was now a better supply of water, storage and irrigation works had been carried out, and the result was that something like 100 square miles of the island had been placed in a much better position than had ever been experienced before. It was too early, he was told, to say absolutely what all the results of the experiment might be, but, so far, there was every reason to hope that they would be attended with success. These works had been largely completed in Messaoria, in the great central plain, where between 4,000 and 5,000 acres of drained and irrigated State lands were now ready for sale; and, just now, some 5,000 acres of wheat in Messaoria had been practically saved by these irrigation works. There had also been advances in other departments. Roads had been improved, means of communication were facilitated by substantial, if plain, bridges spanning formerly destructive torrents; the public health was studied, and altogether the condition of the inhabitants was being materially improved; the various districts were now made readily responsible for some new road-making and new sanitation every year, and in these works both the rural and municipal authorities were co-operating; while the population was, like the revenue, rapidly increasing. Then, in regard to the railways; when he was at Nikosia, he was told by Lieutenant Pritchard, E.E., who made the surveys, that no great engineering difficulties had to be encountered so that a satisfactory system could be established to tap, which was essential, the irrigated central plain lands and connect them with the port of Famagusta, and he hoped with Larnaca and Limassol, as both with the capital. As to the harbour of Famagusta, which was to have been a great naval base, he did not think anyone would deny that it might be made a commercial harbour possessing great advantages, though there were some also in favour of thus adapting the salt lake at Limassol. And he was glad to see by the Cyprus Gazette that the 624 Colonial Secretary had approved the Famagusta Harbour Plans and directed tenders to be obtained by the Crown agents. In cultivation, considerable improvement had been effected, and steam cultivation even had been introduced, and if the case of finely cut fodder could be met the effect of this and of deep tillage in so fertile a land, when only scratched by the ancient plough, must be enormous-Trade in wine and raisins, etc., was good, and in the former, some of them at the London Chamber of Commerce had been glad to help, which was acknowledged in the official Report of the island. The wheat was good; the barley suitable for malting; and carobs were largely exported to Hull for feeding stuffs, the difficulty being to get bottoms for surplus products. Silk manufacture had been improved by the importation of better eggs; vine treatment had been extended; and planting and nursery work largely effected. Trade with the island was practically all British (except in shipping, which was shared with us by France and Austria), and it only needed encouragement to be very largely extended. One method of encouragement might be the establishment of a British agricultural bank in the island, for which there was a demand, and there was need for more co-operation and collective agricultural systems and methods. A Government savings bank had just been founded.
Next he came to the only point as to which he had given notice of an Amendment, and even this point perhaps he might not have to press, in view of the fact that he would probably receive from the right hon. Gentleman assurances which he had given him personally, and which would render it unnecessary. He referred to the means of communication—passenger, and postal, and freight—with and from the island. The system in vogue in the past had been to make short mail contracts, the last of which ended in October, 1901, since which the postal communications had been at most irregular and long intervals. This was most inconvenient and injurious to intercourse and trade, and to the establishment of hotels, and travellers were consequently deterred from visiting the island. Great loss was thereby entailed, and exports to 625 Egyptian markets were prevented, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman, bearing in mind the strong feeling which existed on the subject among all classes, would endeavour to give them direct regular steam communication with Egypt and the Syrian Coast. He was sure the inhabitants of the island were deeply grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for the improvements he had already effected, and he urged him to end injurious parsimony by securing regular weekly, quick, and good boats. He concluded by saying that public education was making progress. All the noncommissioned officers and most of the troopers of the zaptieks were now literates, many speaking English and other languages, and this would make more useful to them their visit to the Coronation, where they would be welcomed. A Bill for improving elementary education was now before the Legislative Assembly, and, though differences of belief were more marked than here, there was no religious difficulty, save that of filling up the Arch-episcopate, a deadlock which had lasted two years, which was mischievous, and ought to be ended. But, unfortunately, men would fight for religion, die for religion—anything but live for religion. He had only now to ask the Colonial Secretary whether the tithe in olives had yet been replaced by an export duty, as was proposed; and whether it could not now be arranged that part of the wharfage dues might now be appropriated locally to improving the ports. And, finally, he expressed what he believed was felt generally in the island, viz., gratitude to the Colonial Secretary for all he had done and had promised to do. Better, the elected Cypriote members of the Legislative Assembly had themselves put this on record, as appeared by the Cyprus official Report. Any British statesman might well be proud of such a work and of such grateful appreciation. Some townsmen might still agitate for union with Greece, and try to impress the villagers; but the Mohamedans thought differently, and many of the idealists had begun to realise that the best policy was to concentrate effort upon real progress rather than give way to a sentiment which was at least premature. 626 But all were loyal and appreciative of what had been done for themselves and for the benefit of their country.
§ (9.28.) MR. SYDNEY BUXTON (Tower Hamlets, Poplar)said he was very glad that, the hon. Gentleman had had an opportunity of raising the question of Cyprus, because it was one of the Colonies in which they were greatly interested, although it was now on a totally different basis from that on which it was annexed. The various descriptions of the island which used to be heard, the representations as to its value as a place of arms, as a naval station, and as a place of influence in the Mediterranean, had now ceased to be drawn; but from a different point of view they had all come to take a keen interest in the position of Cyprus, and the prosperity of that island. He thought, at all events, whatever might have been the original anticipation with regard to Cyprus, and despite the fact that Lord Salisbury himself had confessed that, in their dealings with Turkey in regard to that and other matters, they had put their money on the wrong horse; and, notwithstanding they were now agreed that the island was of no value as a military or naval station, that yet it was generally felt that at all events it was a permanent part of the British Empire, and he was quite sure that no section in the House or the country would desire to hand it back to Turkey. Some years ago the question was raised of handing it over to Greece; but he was quite sure that anyone who had studied the question would recognise that it was equally impossible to hand it over to Greece for national reasons. That being the case, they had to look at Cyprus as a going concern, and as a British concern. The hon. Gentleman said that a considerable number of promises had been given to the inhabitants, and he rather implied that they had not, until lately, at all events, been fulfilled. He was not aware what these promises were, and it seemed to him that the Cypriotes had nothing to complain of. He did not believe that they welcomed British occupation when it was first established, but he did not think that there was any individual in the island now who desired that it should I be handed back to Turkey.
§ SIR ALBERT ROLLITWhat about the promises made by Lord Wolseley?
§ MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid that Lord Wolseley's promises were as he recollected them, promises of personal liberty and justice, and they had been entirely fulfilled. Cyprus as an island had not deteriorated in any way, but had benefited by British occupation. He was very glad to acknowledge to the full the work which the right hon. Gentleman the Colonial Secretary and done for Cyprus, and he was also very glad that the people of Cyprus acknowledged it themselves; but though they were grateful for past favours they also desired further favours to come, which perhaps was only human nature.
The hon. Gentleman referred incidentally to the question of the tribute In previous discussions on Cyprus, the tribute loomed very largely, and it was urged that it was, to a large extent, a millstone round the necks of the Cypriotes. The right hon. Gentleman said a year or two ago that he would do his best to see how far the tribute might be capitalised, with, a view, if possible, to its reduction. He himself confessed that he could not see how, in existing circumstances, the tribute could be reduced. It might be capitalised or otherwise manipulated, but he did not think that the people of the island themselves would gain either from capitalisation or manipulation. He could not, however, understand the argument that the people in the island had any cause for complaint. They had to pay tribute before the occupation, and he thought everyone would admit that paying tribute to Turkey was a very different thing to paying the same amount to England, as it was quite certain that the tribute under the old conditions of collection cost the islanders a vast amount owing to the exactions of the Turkish officials. So far as this country was concerned, it in no sense benefited by the tribute; and as far as he could see, the only people who gained by it were the French Government, who were saved the trouble of getting, or possibly not getting, something like £40,000 a year from Turkey. At the same time it should not be forgotten that the amount, whether it be right or excessive, was fixed by a treaty which it 628 was impossible for Great Britain in good faith to break, unless Turkey agreed to it That being the position, the tribute being a fixed charge, and Cyprus being now a permanent part of the British Empire, the question was what could be done to improve her position. The Colonial Secretary had more than once urged the development of some of the undeveloped Colonies. He for one had never dissented from that policy, but had given practical assent to it by voting for every such proposal of the right hon. Gentleman. He did not know, however, whether, considering the very heavy burdens of Cyprus, the right hon. Gentleman had not undertaken a little too quickly and a little too heavily the work of development in some parts. The right hon. Gentleman originally based expenditure in Cyprus on the ground that there would be a good return for the money. He believed that that was a sound business principle, and he was very glad when the right hon. Gentleman proposed a loan to help Cyprus, as it had been a great advantage not only to the island, but to the British taxpayer. It so happened that when he was in office the island was in a very prosperous state, and for two years he did not find it necessary to propose any grant in aid. Then, unfortunately, came not only bad harvests, but what was worse, a great fall in prices, followed by the further loss when the French markets were practically closed to the Cyprocites. The Government of which he was a member did not go to the extent to which the right hon. Member had gone, because with reference to many of the matters which had been referred to, such as public works, irrigation, and forestry, they had to cut their coat according to their cloth, as popular opinion was not then as pronounced in favour of a policy of colonial development as it now was. But they did something towards beginning some of the elements of development to which the right hon. Gentleman had given such large scope.
He was sure the right hon. Gentleman would be the first to admit that with regard to colonial matters, where no Party questions arose, there ought to be continuity of policy at the Colonial Office. That being so, he was 629 prepared to very heartily join in the congratulations which had been offered to the right hon. Gentleman for what he had done with regard to the development of Cyprus. It was quite clear that in regard to forestry, irrigation, roads, and bridges considerable development had taken place, and a considerable advance had been made in the material prosperity of the island. The hon. Gentleman referred to two matters on which he desired further information. As to the creation of Government banks, he confessed he had some hesitation regarding that matter, and he should very much like to hear what the right hon. Gentleman had to say regarding it. He was afraid that if that policy were adopted, they would have to incur great risks. With regard to the other matter mentioned by the hon. Gentleman, namely, increased means of communication, especially with Egypt, for the distribution of the produce of Cyprus, he would certainly support it, and he thought that if the money which had been voted could be applied in that direction, it would be a good way of furthering the development of the material prosperity of the island. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would give the matter his best attention. The right hon. Gentleman, in the course of a previous debate, said that the Cyprus loan was not only desirable in order to develop the country, but that he trusted it would give a considerable stimulus to individual effort. He should like to know how far that expectation had been fulfilled, and how far local effort had been stimulated.
§ THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN, Birmingham, W.Are you alluding to irrigation?
§ MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid he was referring especially to irrigation, but also to any other public works. He remembered that one of the difficulties of the previous Government in dealing with these questions was that under the original agreement with Cyprus no further taxation could be proposed without the assent of the local representative body. At that time, rightly or wrongly, they entirely declined to 630 vote any further taxation, and the Government did not at that time see their way to make any considerable grants to the island. He hoped, however, that that particular phase had passed away, and that the right hon. Gentleman had been able to receive that local support which his efforts deserved, not only from the locality concerned, but from the island itself. He ventured to make these remarks to the Committee because he desired to associate himself with the efforts of the right hon. Gentleman, which as far as private information went, had been singularly successful, and were founded on true business principles.
§ *(9.46.) MR. PIERPOINT (Warrington)said he desired to refer to one or two matters mentioned by the hon. Member for South Islington. The hon. Member asked the Colonial Secretary a question with reference to steamboat communication with the island. He should like to impress on the Committee the fact that that communication was made especially difficult because of the necessity of Cyprus conforming to the strictest possible quarantine regulations of the Turkish Government. If Cyprus did not carry out these regulations, which were practically the same as for the Turkish Empire, it would be quarantined against Syria. The hon. Member for South Islington also asked a question with reference to the condition of Cyprus as regarded leprosy. Although there had been for centuries leprosy in Cyprus, he thought that Cyprus was less afflicted with that dreadful disease than the Greek Islands, and certainly than Syria. The hon. Member for Poplar said very rightly that there should be continuity of policy at the Colonial Office, but there had fortunately been a break in the policy with reference to Cyprus when his right hon. friend the Colonial Secretary came into office. Generally speaking nothing had been done for the island since 1878 until his right hon. friend went to the Colonial Office. The Party opposite did one thing for the island; they gave it a Parliament which was a questionable benefit, and which did not result in any practical gain to the island. The hon. Member referred to 631 the island as a British colony. He wished it was a British colony, but it was neither one thing nor the other. At present it was technically a part of the British Empire, it was under the British flag, and was governed by a British High Commissioner; and yet the people of the island could not claim to be subjects of His Majesty the King. If it were made a real integral part of the British Empire, not only would the people of the island possess those advantages which naturally accrued to all who could clam the protection of the Union Jack, but they would feel themselves more settled, the tenure of property would be stronger than it was, and the island would benefit in every way. He did not know why Cyprus should remain as it was. At present it was neither inside nor outside the British Empire, and was the only British possession in such a position.
The hon. Gentleman said he was not aware that any promises had been made. He did not suppose his hon. friend meant promises set forth in a treaty or agreement, but the hon. Gentleman must Know that promise after promise was involved in the speeches made at the time of the cession in 1878. The hon. Gentleman must know perfectly well that the Cypriotes were led to expect that Cyprus would be a piare d'armes, and that there would be a naval station there, all of which would load to the expenditure of large sums of money. Had that money been ever spent in the island? At present a single company of soldiers formed the whole garrison, and he believed that the highest military officer in the island was a simple captain. If he remembered aright, the promise made by Lord Wolseley was that nothing would be neglected which would make the island in the future happy and prosperous, but nothing in that direction was attempted until his right hon. friend came into office. As to what had been said regarding the irrigation of the island, he entirely agreed that that had been of the greatest benefit. He did not know precisely how much money had been spent on irrigation, but he thought the amount was about £60,000. In the Colonial Loan Bill £314,000 was named as the loan for Cyprus. That loan was to be at the rate of 3 per cent., and he thought it 632 rather hard that Cyprus should be expected to pay 3 per cent. interest considering the enormous amount of money the island had contributed to the Guaranteed Turkish Loan. The total average revenue of Cyprus might be taken at £180,000 a year; he believed the revenue for the last completed year was £215,000, but the average over twenty-two years was £180,000. The tribute absorbed nearly £93,000, of which more than £81,000 was paid for interest on the 1855 Turkish Loan. That loan was guaranteed, jointly and severally, by England and France in 1855. In 1875 the Porte defaulted, and for some time considerable trouble existed in getting the interest paid. In 1878 it struck some ingenious person that the money which I had been accumulating in Cyprus should be taken to discharge the money that had been advanced by England and France, and that in future the interest on the 1855 Guaranteed Loan should be paid out of the Cyprus tribute. The total revenue of the island for twenty-two years was, roughly speaking, £3,971,600, and the total amount of the tribute during that period was £2,041,600. We had made grants in aid to the amount of £660,000, and if that amount were compared with the tribute we had received it would be seen that the two items were singularly disproportionate. The right hon. Gentleman had stated that Cyprus could not get rid of this tribute, because it was under a treaty. He thought himself, however, that, had France not been concerned, arrangements might have been made to get rid of the tribute for ever by means of ready money, and he could not see why this country should take upon itself the obligation of paying France's debt. In 1855 France deliberately entered into this joint guarantee. Under the present arrangement we paid Cyprus on an average in grants in aid £30,000, and received from Cyprus nearly £41,000 for its share in this liability under the 1855 loan, or a net sum of £11,000 to this country, whereas France made a net sum of £41,000. A further point was with regard to the surplus of this money which had accumulated since 1878. That surplus now amounted to nearly £200,000. That was actually lying in England invested, and the interest accumulating, it being supposed to be a 633 sinking fund for the 1855 guaranteed Joan, yet, although we had all this money, which had been raised out of the taxation of Cyprus, in our own hands, when we lent money to Cyprus 3 per cent. interest was charged, He hoped the Colonial Secretary would take these matters into his consideration. The right hon. Gentleman had shown himself favourably disposed to our—he was going to say derelict colonies, and he hoped he would be even more favourably inclined in the future. Two years ago, the right hon. Gentleman, speaking with regard to the Transvaal war, used the expression, "'We ask no ransom; we exact no tribute." The remark was particularly applicable to the question under discussion. We exacted no tribute, but the effect was the same—the tribute was exacted; and he ventured to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, if the Convention of 1878 concerned New Zealand or Canada, he would try to enforce the treaty by which New Zealand or Canada would have to pay one-third of their revenue every year to be spent elsewhere.
§ *(10.3.) MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSE (Bristol, E.)said that if the hon. Member who urged that Cyprus should be made a place d'armes had been as well acquainted with the island as he was, he would have known that the conformation of the country made that impossible. The low country from May to October was perfectly untenable for British troops, and the summits of the Tröados range of mountains from October to March or April was impassable on account of snow.
§ * MR. PIERPOINTsaid he did not advocate Cyprus being made a plane d'armes; he simply stated that the promise had been given that it should be so made.
§ * MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSEsaid that another reason for not making it a place d'armes was that Parliament would never consent to spend a million of money on territory which was not, and never would be, technically and legally ours. Therefore, on both financial and military grounds, at was impossible to conceive any Government at any period placing a large 634 garrison of British troops in Cyprus. He understood that the harbour of Famagusta was being converted into a commercial place of refuge, and that in the course of the operations the interesting walls which surrounded the old city had been broken down and taken to Alexandria. He hoped that that was not the case, because the city of Famagusta was an exceedingly interesting place from an antiquarian point of view. The point raised with regard to steamer communication was an important one. The long period occupied by postal communication between London and Cyprus was a great bar to the commercial development of the island, and which, having regard to the excess revenue of Cyprus, ought to be removed. We were giving £16,000 in aid of the tribute, and a very small additional grant in aid of a postal subsidy would repay it self. He understood that the public lands had not been completely surveyed, and that their area was still doubtful. That was a matter of considerable importance to the internal administration of the island, and should be determined as soon as possible. He also thought that the mule-breeding capacity of the island might, to the advantage of the inhabitants and ourselves, be simulated and encouraged, because, according to Lord Wolseley's pocket-book, the mules of Cyprus could bear a burden half as large again as any other mules with which that authority was acquainted. On the question of administration, the loan was £60,000, in round figures while the total income was £215,000. That amount bore no relation to the amount urban authorities in this country might borrow on the security of the rates, and he thought the loan in this case might be considerably increased without loss of security. In regard to afforestation, much had already been done, but much more might be done, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would give his consideration to the points which had been raised.
§ (10.12.) MR. O'MARA (Kilkenny, S.)asked the Committee to consider what value this country obtained for the expenditure of £640,000 already incurred, and for the £30,000 now being voted. The territory was technically 635 and legally a portion of the Turkish Empire, and the inhabitants, who, according to the Encyclopœdia Britannica, were mainly Greeks and Turks, were Turkish subjects. At the end of twenty-two years, the total value of the imports and exports of the trade of Cyprus with this country amounted to only £137,000 a year, and for that this country was paying at the rate of about £30,000. That being the case, it was really surprising that English Members, at a time when the bread of the poor was being taxed, should support this Vote of £30,000 to an island whose inhabitants were Turkish subjects, and also press for the expenditure of more money on irrigation and afforestation. He suggested that, instead of the Government of the island being subsidised, Cyprus should be treated as Cuba had been treated by the United States—that the people should be given their independence, and allowed to make their own arrangements with regard to the tribute. At any rate, he could not see that this country benefited by the expenditure here proposed, and he begged to remove the reduction of the Vote by £500.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £500, be granted for the said service."—(Mr. O'Mara.)
§ LORD BALCARRES (Lancashire, Chorley), who was indistinctly heard, said he wished to bear his testimony to the immense care taken, by the Colonial Office in drawing up its contracts for the preservation of antiquities and curiosities in the island of Cyprus. He only wished that other Departments would follow the example set by the right hon. Gentleman. He had read in the papers that there was a danger of Cyprus losing some of its antiquities and curiosities, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would be able to tell them something about those proposals. He thought it was the duty of the Commissioner of the island to see that those antiquities were carefully and properly preserved.
§ (10.23.) MR. J. CHAMBERLAINI think the Colonial Office would be very ungrateful if it failed to appreciate 636 what has been said by hon. Gentlemen, opposite who have spoken in praise of the progress made and the increased prosperity of Cyprus. Certainly our efforts have been most fully recognised, and we will take what has been said as an encouragement to do more in future. I think it is a satisfactory thing, when complaints are made sometimes of too-much money being spent in trying to improve and develop our colonies, that now, with regard to Cyprus, complaint is made that we have not spent enough. I am not inclined altogether to object to that, for I should like very much if we could go still further in the direction indicated. It would be a mistake for a great country not to let out its money for a certain time, and that is the only reason why these matters should be undertaken by the public and not by private individuals who cannot be out of their money. There should be an undertaking that the guarantee would last. I am glad to accept the very favourable account given by my hon. friends the Member for South Islington, the Member for Warrington, and the hon. Gentlemen opposite. It is quite true that more might still be done; but there seems to be no doubt whatever that the state of the island is in a very much better position since it came under our occupation, and I see no reason why that should not continue. It is quite true that we desire to see intelligent and energetic men taking an interest in the island.
We have done something to remove the duties complained of, with good results. As to the locusts I cannot say that we shall be able to entirely avoid that danger in future, but I may say that every possible arrangement has been made to deal with it. Some of the subjects alluded to are matters chiefly for the consideration of the Legislative Council. They have been brought to the notice of the Governor and of the Council, and I am in hopes that changes will be made which will have the effect of improving the complicated system which we are gradually reforming. As to the olive tithe, that also is under consideration, and, generally speaking, I may say we have made very great changes in the incidence of taxation, and we have very much lessened the cost of 637 the collection of taxes in the island. I ought to say a word about the statement made by my hon. friend opposite, that the original anticipation with which the island was taken has not been fulfilled. The original anticipation, I think, was a little vague, and it would be rather difficult, at the present time at any rate, to say precisely what that anticipation was. But whatever it was, the circumstances have entirely changed since, and whatever arrangements were made in anticipation, whether they were made in view of reforms which were demanded and hoped for in Asia Minor or not, I am sorry to say that they have not been accomplished.
But undoubtedly the arrangement, or promise, or anticipation, or whatever you may call it was of a reciprocal character, and under existing circumstances there can be no possible ground of complaint, inasmuch as the original conditions have not been fulfilled. I should deplore any statement made in this House by the friends of Cyprus, as misleading to the island and as doing harm to their cause, to the effect that such promises or anticipations as were held out to them had not been fully and amply justified. They were not moved in the slightest degree by any suggestion that in certain circumstances there might be a British garrison or a British fleet there, but they were moved by their natural desire to escape from the Government of the Turk, and, independently of the material benefits to which allusion has been made, they have since enjoyed equal justice, absolute honesty in the Government, and a great share in the government, of which they were always previously deprived. These things in themselves justify their desire, and I think also fully justify the work which we have carried out. Some of my hon. friends are much interested in the antiquities of Cyprus. I wish very much the inhabitants of Cyprus were equally interested in them.
My noble friend the Member for Chorley says the inhabitants are deficient in public spirit. It is quite possible in this House to propose a grant in aid of money for the benefit of the inhabitants of Cyprus; I wish it were also possible to propose a, grant in aid of public spirit. From time to time we have 638 pressed upon the Council and the inhabitants of Cyprus the importance to themselves of preserving these interesting memorials of their past, but they have failed utterly to accept any suggestions we have made to that effect. The museum especially has been allowed to suffer and almost disappear from this island, and many curiosities of the island have been in greater danger of being lost to civilisation than if they had been transported, however irregularly, to some European country. But we are fully aware of the desirableness of altering this state of things as far as the inhabitants themselves will support us in doing it. We have authorised a grant for a museum, and the introduction of a new law which should give to the authorities the power of purchasing all the curiosities and antiquities which may be discovered in the island, whereas up to the present they have only had power to obtain one-third. Therefore we have moved in the direction desired by my noble friend.
I think I can add nothing to what I have said as to the preservation of the ancient wall, which was a subject of anxiety to some antiquarians in this country when it was proposed to improve the harbour of Famagusta. With regard to the harbour, surveys have been made, and, I believe, the tenders are out; at all events, the Crown agents have authority to receive tenders and the work will be almost immediately begun. We think it prudent to allow the railway from Famagusta to Nicosia to wait for a year or two, until the harbour has been constructed. A suggestion has been made for the creation of a bank in Cyprus—a "land bank" it has been described in this House. That is not a matter for the Government. I am not prepared, although I wish in every way to develop the island, to establish a Government bank for agricultural or other purposes. But we are prepared to give every encouragement we can for the establishment of such an institution. We have been negotiating with private individuals, and I think there is a probability that such an institution will be established. What is of much greater importance is the communication with Cyprus. I agree with the hon. Member for Islington upon that point, and I admit that he is absolutely correct in 639 saying that under the contract with the I Austrian Lloyd the communication with Egypt has been of a most unsatisfactory and irregular character. We are now engaged in securing—we shall secure—a regular weekly service between Cyprus and Egypt.
§ MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSEasked whether they would be British vessels.
§ MR. J. CHAMBERLAINI am delighted to accept that as at all events implying that the hon. Gentleman would support the Government with regard to subsidising mail and postal services to secure that they are given entirely to British lines and not to foreign lines. I appreciate very much the opinion of the hon. Member on this point, which I hope exists on both sides of the House, and I trust it may be possible to make a beginning in this direction in the case of Cyprus. Of course, if we cannot get British vessels Cyprus must not go without on that account. Still, I agree with the hon. Member that, even if it costs a little more money, postal services, between British protectorates at any rate, should be carried in British vessels.
Then, a great deal has been said upon the subject of irrigation, to which I have myself attached great importance. The House was good enough, at my instigation, to allow a loan of £60,000 to try experiments in this direction. The works are fully completed, and I am glad to say that, so far as the engineering part of the scheme is concerned, they are a great success and are likely to give all the accommodation which we anticipated from them. But I must say that up to the present the result has been a little discouraging, owing to the backwardness of the population of Cyprus. Having called out for irrigation, now that irrigation is there they are loth to take advantage of it. Although when drought comes they will be very glad to take immediate advantage of the irrigation which we can then supply, they are not ready to do, what it would pay them very well to do—take the water even in times when there is no drought. That larger supply would enable them very greatly to increase their cultivation. All the people of Cyprus, including the leading members of the 640 Legislative Assembly, are fully aware of this, and of the difficulty which it causes, and are prepared to deal with it by fresh legislation which will enable them to lay an irrigation tax in all the districts capable of being supplied by the wells. The moment that is done we shall, by a little gentle pressure, compel the inhabitants to take advantage of the irrigation which is being supplied—compelled, as I say, with the full consent of their own representative Council. If that difficulty is passed it will justify, I think, a very considerable extension of the experiment, and other works may be adopted. This would in itself justify much of the expenditure which has already been incurred, and I may tell the hon. Member opposite that surveys have been made, and plans are in the course of preparation, for further irrigation works.
I think I have now dealt with the different points of detail, but I have not said anything about the subject which the hon. Member for South Kilkenny, who has moved the Amendment to this vote, but is not now in the House, has referred, to. He is the one exception to the chorus of congratulation which has given me so much pleasure. I am aware that the hon. Member represents colonial criticism in that quarter of the House. I can only say that with the help of the Encyclopœdia Britannica he has managed to occupy a certain amount of the time of the House, but he has failed to give any original information to the House; and if he adheres to his Amendment I hope he will not be supported by any very large number of Members. But there are two questions which are always raised, upon this Vote upon which I must say a word or two. One is the question of the tribute. On all occasions when this question of Cyprus is raised my hon. friend the Member for Warrington and I have an amiable difference with regard to the position of Cyprus in connection with the tribute, and I always regret that my hon. friend puts the case so strongly, because it encourages the people to consider themselves ill-used, individuals, whereas they are, on the contrary, extremely fortunate individuals. They would no doubt be better off if they had no tribute to pay, but it was not we who imposed the tribute upon them. We took aver the island 641 subject to the tribute, which they would have had to pay whether we took it over or not. Now, instead of paying £90,000 a year, they only pay on the average £60,000, which is a reduction of one-third; and they also have the advantage which they gain from the fact that the taxation for the tribute is now collected honestly without any additions made by the extortions of the tax-collector, which under Eastern methods very often amount to more than the tax itself. Therefore, I say the Cypriotes have nothing whatever to complain of. My hon. friend appears to think it a hardship that we should ask them to pay 3 per cent. for the loan we have made to them; but we ask them to pay no more than we ask the greatest corporation in this country to pay for a loan obtained under similar circumstances. I confess I do not agree with him, and I think his speech is a little ungrateful to the British taxpayer and the British Parliament, which is doing so much for the Cypriotes in allowing them to have money at this extremely low and reasonable rate. This tribute is a tribute due to Turkey, which would have to be paid to Turkey whatever happened. If we, for instance, were to follow the advice of the hon. Member for South Kilkenny, and give them their independence—for which, indeed, they have never asked—what would be the result? The Turks would immediately re-enter into possession. The case of Cuba is rather different. In the case of Cuba, the country interested, Spain, has abandoned all claim, but Turkey has not abandoned all claim to Cyprus. On the contrary, it is a part of the convention that if at any time we desire to get rid of the bargain it is to Turkey that the island goes back, and we have no power whatever to secure its independence or hand it over to any third Power. My hon. friend always mixes up a matter which is absolutely irrelevant to the issue. He mixes up the fact that the tribute has been applied, not by us, but by Turkey, to the purpose of paying the interest on the guaranteed loan. That is a separate negotiation altogether. Suppose it had not been applied to that purpose, it would make no difference, and it would not be of the slightest 642 advantage to the people of Cyprus. They would still have to pay £90,000 a year, and they would have no interest whatever in what became of that £90,000 a year.
§ * MR. PIERPOINTwas understood to say that his contention was that the amount might have been capitalised and the annual payment so got rid of.
§ MR. J. CHAMBERLAINThat is a hypothesis, and an argument for which there is not the slightest foundation. Does my hon. friend really suppose that if Cyprus had remained a possession of Turkey his clients would have been freed from tribute?
§ * MR. PIERPOINTsaid he meant to say that if we had not mixed France up with this tribute, but had retained, as we had undoubtedly the legal power to retain, this money, Cyprus being a part of the Turkish Empire, we could have arranged matters with Turkey for a comparatively small sum of money.
§ MR. J. CHAMBERLAINMy hon. friend might have been able to do that, but we could not. But that is absolutely irrelevant. If we could get rid of the tribute to-morrow, if we could settle with Turkey and France, that would not touch Cyprus. Cyprus would have to pay in any circumstances, and what becomes of the money afterwards does not matter in the least to Cyprus. We tried some years ago very hard to do exactly what my hon. friend suggests we should do—to get some capitalisation of the sum by which the annual payment would be reduced; and we made a proposal which I think would have been advantageous to Turkey. But that would not have helped Cyprus in the least. It would only have helped this country, for at present we are paying £30,000 a year of the tribute ourselves, and we could have saved that. The Cypriotes would not have been in the slightest degree advantaged by that circumstance, unless, indeed, out of 643 its generosity the House of Commons had chosen to make a larger grant than it has made up to the present time. A suggestion has been made tonight that this island might be transferred to Greece. Even if an international agreement could be arrived at to that effect, I doubt whether there would be any general agreement on the subject in Cyprus. Is it likely that if the island were transferred to Greece, Greece would be in a position to make a grant of £30,000 a year? It would not, therefore, affect the question of tribute. They would have to pay the tribute exactly the same as now, and the only difference would be that they would have a poor country comparatively as their protector instead of a rich and strong country. I do not see from a material point of view how it would benefit. There is another point which ought to be remembered. There is a very large Mahomedan population whose opinions are altogether opposed to any such transfer. I do not think that any change in the occupation of the island could be, possible; and we have only to pursue the course in which we are already engaged, and which has justified itself so far, according to the general testimony of those Members of the House acquainted with the circumstances of the island, and which I am encouraged to believe, from what has been said tonight, the House is willing to pursue even to a larger extent in the future.
§ * MR. WEIR (ROSS and Cromarty)said that the occupation of Cyprus had cost the British taxpayer £630,000, and when the Committee considered that there were many useful purposes at home for which money was required, they had a right to ask whether the island was worth what the administration cost. He believed the people of the Highlands of Scotland had reason to complain that, while their wants were neglected, money was being spent to improve the condition of the Cypriotes. The island was of no service to us at present, but he wanted to know whether it would be of any service to us in the event of our being engaged in war. Was there any protection there for our 644 ships of war? We had Malta, and unless Cyprus was going to be of service in the event of war he doubted whether the island was worth holding. He believed we would have to depend on Malta, and that alone. The Colonial Secretary had talked about the increase in the production of olives, and a number of minor things; but the Report stated that unless water could be provided by means of irrigation schemes the country was not likely to prosper. The right hon. Gentleman said that after irrigation had been carried out we would apply some gentle pressure, and that every one in the irrigation area would have to pay for water, whether he wanted it or not. What did the right hon. Gentleman mean by gentle pressure? In British Central Africa the Colonial Secretary went in for a little gentle pressure. He changed the hut tax from 10s. per hut to 10s. on each adult inmate of a hut. He would not call that gentle pressure, but pretty hard squeezing. The right hon. Gentleman gave no indication of the size of the harbour to be constructed at Cyprus. It would be of precious little use unless it was large enough to receive ocean-going steamers like those of the P. and O. line. The right hon. Gentleman said that we were making progress, but he failed to see where the progress was. His opinion was that we were really making no progress at all. The police charges in Cyprus amounted to 2s. per annum for every man, woman, and child. He should like the Colonial Secretary to look into the figures, because that was surely an outrageous charge in a place where there was no great amount of crime. He was afraid there was jobbery of some sort. He hoped that some arrangement would be made whereby we could reduce the large amount of tribute which was paid every year.
§ (11.3.) Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 30; Noes, 199. (Division List No. 178.)
619| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E. | Channing, Francis Allston | Fuller, J. M. F. |
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Clancy, John Joseph | Furness, Sir Christopher |
| Allan, William (Gateshead) | Craig, Robert Hunter | Gladstone, Rt Hn Herbert John |
| Ambrose, Robert | Cremer, William Randall | Goddard, Daniel Ford |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Grant, Corrie |
| Barlow, John Emmott | Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan) | Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick) |
| Blake, Edward | Delany, William | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton |
| Brand, Hon. Arthur G. | Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. | Haldane, Richard Burdon |
| Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Doogan, P. C. | Harmsworth, R. Leicester |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Elibank, Master of | Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale- |
| Burns, John | Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone | Healy, Timothy Michael |
| Caldwell, James | Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | Holland, William Henry |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Farquharson, Dr. Robert | Jacoby, James Alfred |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Ffrench, Peter | Joicey, Sir James |
| Cawley, Frederick | Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund | Jones, David Brynm'r (Swansea |
| Kearley, Hudson E. | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Sullivan, Donal |
| Kinloch, Sir John George Smyth | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E. |
| Lambert, George | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr |
| Langley, Batty | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.) |
| Layland-Barratt, Francis | O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) | Toulmin, George |
| Leamy, Edmund | O' Brien, Kendal (Tipper'ry Mid | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Wallace, Robert |
| Lewis, John Herbert | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) |
| Lloyd-George, David | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon N. | Weir, James Galloway |
| MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. | O'Malley, William | White, George (Norfolk) |
| MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | O'Mara, James | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Palmer, George Wm.(Reading) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth |
| M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | Partington, Oswald | Wilson, Chas. Henry (Hull, W.) |
| M'Crae, George | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| M'Kean, John | Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries) | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) | |
| Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe | Robson, William Snowdon | |
| Mooney, John J. | Shipman, Dr. John G. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) | Dr. Macnamara and Mr. Whitley. |
| Morton, Edw. J. C.(Devenport) | Spencer, Rt. Hn. C R (Northants | |
| Moulton, John Fletcher | Strachey, Sir Edward | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex F. | Dickson, Charles Scott | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie |
| Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden | Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Douglas, Rt. Hon A. Akers- | Llewellyn, Evan Henry |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart | Lockwood, Lt., Col. A. R. |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Fardell, Sir T. George | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. |
| Austin, Sir John | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent) |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Loyd, Archie Kirkman |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Finch, George H. | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Firbank, Joseph Thomas | Macdona, John Camming |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r) | Fisher, William Hayes | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- | Majendie, James A. H. |
| Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds | Flannery, Sir Fortesue | Malcolm, Ian |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Martin, Hichard Biddulph |
| Banes, Major George Edward | Galloway, William Johnson | Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire |
| Bartley, George C. T. | Gardner, Ernest. | Middlemore, Jno. Throgmorton |
| Beach, Rt Hn Sir Michael Hicks | Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'r H'ml'ts | Milvain, Thomas |
| Bond, Edward | Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc.) | Molesworth, Sir Lewis |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) |
| Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn | Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford |
| Brassey, Albert | Graham, Henry Robert | Mount, William Arthur |
| Brotherton, Edward Allen | Greene, Sir E W (B'ry S. Edm'nds | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. |
| Butcher, John George | Gretton, John | Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Myers, William Henry |
| Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. | Newdigate, Francis Alexander |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire | Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Mid'x | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'derry | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. | Parker, Gilbert |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm. | Hare, Thomas William | Pemberton, John S. G. |
| Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Penn, John |
| Chapman, Edward | Heaton, John Henniker | Percy, Earl |
| Charrington, Spencer | Henderson, Alexander | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Higginbottom, S. W. | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Clive, Captain Percy A. | Hoare, Sir Samuel | Purvis, Robert |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Hope, J. F.(Sheffield, Brightside | Pym, C. Guy |
| Coddington, Sir William | Hornby, Sir William Henry | Rankins, Sir James |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Hoult, Joseph | Rasch, Major Frederick Carne |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) | Ratcliff, R. F. |
| Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready | Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil | Rattigan, Sir William Henry |
| Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge) |
| Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | Hutton, John (Yorks, N. B.) | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Keswick, William | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) |
| Cripps, Charles Alfred | King, Sir Henry Seymour | Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye |
| Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) | Laurie, Lieut.-General | Ropner, Colonel Robert |
| Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Lawrence, Joseph (Monmouth) | Round, James |
| Denny, Colonel | Lawson, John Grant | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Dewar, T. R. (T'r H'mlets, S. Geo. | Lecky, Rt Hon William Edw. H. | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Dickinson, Robert Edmond | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) |
| Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert | Tallbot, Rt. Hn. J. G (Oxf'd Univ. | Wills, Sir Frederick |
| Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W. | Thorburn, Sir Walter | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Seeley, Charles Hilton (Lincoln | Thornton, Percy M. | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks. |
| Sharpe, William Edward T. | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray | Wolff, Gustay Wilhelm |
| Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew) | Tuke, Sir John Batty | Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson |
| Sinclair, Louis (Romford) | Valentia, Viscount | Wrightson, Sir Thomas |
| Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.) | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Stanley, Ed ward Jas. (Somerset | Walker, Col. William Hall | |
| Stanley, Lord (Lincs.) | Wanklyn, James Leslie | |
| Stone, Sir Benjamin | Webb, Colonel William George | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley | Wharton, Rt. Hon. Juhn Lloyd | Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E. | Leamy, Edmund | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. |
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Blake, Edward | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Burns, John | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | M'Kean, John | Sullivan, Donal |
| Charming, Francis Allston | Mooney, John J. | Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Thomas, J A (Glamorg'n, Gower |
| Cremer, William Randal | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Weir, James Galloway |
| Delany, William | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | |
| Ffrench, Peter | O'Brien, Kendal (Tipper'ry, Mid | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Healy, Timothy Michael | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Mr. O'Mara and Mr. Doogan. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood. Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Faber, George Denison (York) | Macartney, Rt. Hn. WG Ellison |
| Allan, William (Gateshead) | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Macdona, John Cumming |
| Allhusen, August's Henry Eden | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Maclver, David (Liverpool) |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Finch, George H. | Maconochie, A. W. |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Fisher, William Hayes | M'Calmont, Col. H L B (Cambs.) |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- | M'Crae, George |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | Mariners, Lord Cecil |
| Balcarres, Lord | Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Mansfield, Horace Rendall |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r | Flower, Ernest | Martin, Richard Biddulph |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Fuller, J. M. F. | Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederiek G. |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W (Leeds | Furness, Sir Christopher | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christen. | Gardner, Ernest | Morrison, James Archibald |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Goddard, Daniel Ford | Morton, Aruhur H. A. (Deptford |
| Beach, Rt. Hn Sir Miebael Hicks | Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) | Mount, William Arthur |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon | Myers, William Henry |
| Bond, Edward | Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | Newdigate, Francis Alexander |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Norman, Henry |
| Brassey, Albert | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) | Nussey, Thomas Willans |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Gretton, John | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay |
| Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Parker, Gilbert |
| Brown, Alexander H.(Shropsh. | Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick) | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) |
| Bryce, Rt. Hon James | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Pemberton, John S. G. |
| Bull, William James | Haldane, Richard Burdon | Perey, Earl |
| Butcher, John George | Hall, Edward Marshall | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Mid'x | Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard |
| Caldwell, James | Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm. | Preryman, Ernest George |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Harmswotth, R. Leicester | Purvis, Robert |
| Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Rankin, Sir James |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | Rasch, Major Frederick Carne |
| Cawley, Frederick | Heath, James (Staffords, N. W. | Ratcliff, R. F. |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Helme, Norval Watson | Reckitt, Harold James |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. | Henderson, Alexander | Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge |
| Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wor'cr | Higginbottom, S. W. | Rigg, Richard |
| Chapman, Edward | Hobhonse, C E. H. (Bristol, E.) | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson |
| Charrington, Spencer | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos H. A. E. | Hoult, Joseph | Robson, William Snowdon |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Hutton, John (York. N. R.) | Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye |
| Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready | Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton | Ropner, Colonel Robert |
| Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Round, James |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Keswick, William | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Craig, Robert Hunter | Langley, Batty | Rutherford, John |
| Canborne, Viscount | Lawrence, Joseph (Monmouth) | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Lawson, John Grant | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Dalrymple Sir Charles | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Seeley, Charles Hilton (Lincoln |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Denny, Colonel | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew) |
| Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.) | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) |
| Dewar, T. R (T'rH'mlets S. Geo. | Leveson-Gower. Frederick N. S. | Smith, H C (North'mb, Tyneside |
| Dickinson, Robert Edmond | Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks. |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset |
| Dorington, Sir John Edward | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Stracbey, Sir Edward |
| Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Stroyan, John |
| Elibank, Master of | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier |
| Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) | Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr | Wason, John Carthart (Orkney) | Wilson-Todd, Win. H. (Yorks.) |
| Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.) | Webb, Colonel William George | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath |
| Thornton, Percy M. | White, George (Norfolk) | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray | White, Luke (York, E. R.) | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Toulmin, George | Whitely, George (York, W. R.) | |
| Tuke, Sir John Batty | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) | |
| Ure, Alexander | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) | TEILERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Valentia, Viscount | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) | Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Vincent, Col. Sir C E H (Sheffield | Wills, Sir Frederick | |
| Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) | Wilson, A. Stauley (York, E. R.) | |
| Walker, Col. William Hall | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) | |
| Warr, Augustus Frederick | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
Original Question put, and agreed to.
§ 2. £133,225, to complete the sum for Telegraph Subsidies and Pacific Cable.
§ 3. £40,000, for Cretan Loan.
§ Resolutions to be reported.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £277,570, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, for the expenses in connection with His Majesty's Embassies, Missions, and Consular Establishments abroad, and other expenditure chargeable to the Consular Vote."
* MR. JOSEPH A. PEASE (Essex, Saffron Waiden)said he wished to raise on this Vote once again the question of slavery in East Africa. Any one who had followed the course of events in East Africa must be aware that the Consul General there, Sir Charles Eliot, had made a favourable impression, and that he was an able administrator; but so long as slavery existed under the regulations adopted by the Government, the Committee was justified in raising a protest against the continuance of that system. It was difficult to apportion the blame between the officials in East Africa and the Government of the day, but many Members on both sides of the House believed that it was a disgrace that slavery should exist under the Union Jack, and thought that the time had come when the Government should take some more decided steps than they had done with the view of terminating 648 slavery in East Africa. The First Lord of the Treasury in 1897 had given a pledge to extend to the mainland the reforms carried out in the island of Zanzibar; the pledge had been repeated by Lord Curzon and the present Secretary of State for War in subsequent years, when they represented the Foreign Office, but that pledge had not been redeemed. In fact, only last year the Government appeared to have adopted a different system, and were almost prepared to reverse the policy pursued in the island of Zanzibar. What he complained of was that the regulations which were imposed with regard to freed slaves in East Africa were such as actually to make the position of a tree man worse than that of the slave himself. When the slave became a free man he lost the regard of his master, and had no one to turn to in times of difficulty. He also lost his companions, and all the associations with which he had been brought up. In the words of one of the officials he lost all the material advantages which had been his as a slave, and found himself almost a pariah and alone In the world. The Arabs obtained the abour of these freed men three days a week in return for the house and land on which they lived. By dividing the slaves into two sections the Arabs got the soil cultivated six days in a week and never paid any wages for labour. He was informed that there was no obligation under the regulations that these freed men should receive any wages at all; and it was found that under the regulations nearly every woman became a prostitute.
§ THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Lord CRANBORNE,) RochesterIs the hon. Gentleman speaking of the island of Zanzibar or of the mainland?
* MR. JOSEPH A. PEASEsaid he was speaking of the islands and of the regulations imposed by Sir Charles Eliot. In January last he had asked the noble Lord whether the freed slaves were compelled to sign a contract, and whether they would be allotted to work for particular employers against their will; and the noble Lord had told him across the floor of the House that he must have been misinformed. He was not misinformed, and he would give the noble Lord a particular case. In November last a freed slave, named Ufunquo, was not allowed to build a house by friends at the mission station interested in his emancipation. What did that mean but that a freed man could not get employment from the master he desired to serve, and what will this man and his fellow negroes think of the advantages of freedom? The whole system which had been set up by the officials at Zanzibar, with the complicity of His Majesty's Government, was to make freedom less popular than slavery. The consequence was that there had been a steady dimunition in the number of slaves set free. Out of 25,000 negroes in Pemba, 5,000 were freed under the decree of April, 1897, but last year only 240 were freed. One of the officials had written a letter home saying that the system of signing contracts was to be discontinued, but a gentleman who had just come back from East Africa, Mr. Duckworth, who sat for the Middleton division, and who expressed a high opinion of Sir Charles Eliot, said that, from the investigations he had made there, he believed it would be a kindness to the Arabs themselves if the Government at once declared all slaves free. He said that in the event of rain failing to fall the negro population rushed to the towns, and the Arabs taking advantage of their necessities refused to part with them unless compensation was paid, as if they were legally held slaves.
Though cruelty no longer existed, and the standard of the people had improved, yet the slow progress of the slave population becoming free was prejudicial to the interests of East Africa as a whole. The missionaries on the spot declared that any immediate method would be better than the present system 650 adopted by the Government, which only promoted immorality, and permitted the existence of slavery in the coast strip under our administration, and the buying and selling of slaves in the Hinterland of the East African Protectorate. He had a letter in his hand from Bishop-Tucker of Uganda, written on the 26th April last, in which he said that the statement that neither in theory nor practice slavery existed on the coast strip or the island was not an accurate description. The buying and selling of slaves was, the Bishop was convinced, very far from extinct in the East African Protectorate; and Sir Charles Eliot's views were due to ignorance, because he had not been far enough, from the coast to know what was going on. No one-knew the condition of things better than Bishop Tucker, and when he said that the buying and selling of slaves was permitted, that was a matter which the Government ought to take into consideration. The decree of April 18, 1876, forbade the introduction of fresh slaves into-the territories of the Sultan of Zanzibar; but, according to Bishop Tucker, after a test case had been taken before two-assessors, Sheik Mahomed Bin Karsim and Sheik Nasur Bin Karsim, local lawyers, the law was interpreted so that actually nine-tenths of the population on the coast strip were now illegally held in bondage. The penal code in India had been applied to the territories of the Sultan of Zanzibar. In that code any one who detained any person as a slave was liable to imprisonment for seven years. Well, all those who were cognisant of these men being held as slaves were morally, if not technically, liable to that penal punishment. But the officials out there seemed to ignore this illegality, and the Government at home-upheld it, or connived at it. When a Question was asked by the Hon. Member for Honiton last March of the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs as to when this system was going to terminate, the noble Lord said in fifteen years, adding that he was not in favour of undue precipitancy. All along in connection with East Africa they had had to wring from the Government little concessions in favour of the slave population, and they had had to combat the fearful anticipations of the 651 Government as to the results of I emancipation. Dr. William Wilson, a missionary, who had just returned from Madagascar, in a speech delivered last month, said that the emancipation of the slaves in Madagascar had proved to be good, not only for the slaves, but for their masters, and that all the anticipations and prophecies as to the evil results which would follow sudden manumission of the slaves had broken down. Nothing but good had resulted from the sudden release of the slaves, brought about by able administrators like M. Laroche in Madagascar, Sir Frederick Lugard in Nigeria, and Lord Cromer in Egypt, in emancipating the slaves at once, and there was no reason why the same should not be done in East Africa. He knew that the Government excuse was that they must look after the interests of the Arab masters, and that if they freed the slaves at once, compensation would have to be paid. Well, some time ago the Colonial Secretary said that the Government would find the money for compensation, rather than there should be a continuance of slavery under the British flag. Why did not the Government, therefore, get rid of it at once, even if some compensation were necessary? What had been the result of the present system? During the last thirty years the population had gone down. In the islands of Zanzibar and Pemba it had been reduced from 400,000 to some 7,000 and the slave population had fallen from 270,000 to 53,000. The islands had not been developed as they ought to have been. Settlers could not be expected to go and cultivate the soil unless slavery was abolished. There was no system of payment of wages. Wages were not paid even to the freed men in the islands, and as long as a slave population existed, no proper system for the payment of wages would be found. Forced labour and free labour never succeeded side by side. Free labour had always proved more productive than forced labour, and if the Government would only completely free the slaves by abolishing the legal status of slavery, there would be a rapid development of progress on the islands as well as on the coast strip. The Government were 652 largely responsible for the present condition of things in East Africa. He did not want to unfairly or unnecessarily blame Sir Charles Eliot, who had only recently gone out there, but he believed that if he recommended the abolition of slavery, the Government would be bound to carry it out. He did not desire in any way to make a Party question of slavery, but he felt he could only place pressure on the Government by dividing the House, and therefore, as a protest against the continuance of slavery in East Africa, he begged to move, formally, that this Vote be reduced by £100.
§ Motion made and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £277,470, be granted for the said service."—(Mr. Joseph A. Pease.)
§ *(11.34.) SIR CHARLES DILKE (Gloucestershire, Forest of Dean)said he desired endorse all that had fallen from his hon. friend. In the most recent issue of that very valuable publication on Comparative Legislation which had the advantage of the supervision of the Clerk of the House the question of the legality of the position to which his hon. friend had alluded was discussed, and the competent writers who discussed it conclusively established the illegality of that position. He thought that the whole question of British East Africa, apart from Zanzibar and Pemba, might be more fittingly discussed on another Vote, but as his hon. friend had raised the question as being under the general supervision of the Consul-General in Zanzibar, he wished entirely to endorse what his hon. friend had said with reference to the illegality of the position. There was another complaint against the government in Zanzibar which he desired to mention. That government was in the habit of classing Canada under the title of America, along with the United States and South and Central America in their Trade Returns. The Committee which sat last session on steamship subsidies brought out that extraordinary fact, which he thought was well worth the attention of commercial Members of the House. He did not know what possible answer could be given to that complaint. The trade 653 of Zanzibar with America had shown a very large increase, but when it came to be examined, it was shown that that increase did not as a matter of fact come from the United States at all but from Canada. He did not know who was responsible. The Foreign Office stated that it was the administration at Zanzibar, but surely the Foreign Office controlled the trading regulations of Zanzibar, and should take care that such things should not continue. He hoped if it were not corrected already, it would be corrected immediately. He merely wished to draw attention to that extraordinary fact and to endorse what had been said by his hon friend.
§ LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICEsaid that on the diplomatic Vote before the Committee there was, amongst other items, the salary of the British Ambassador to the United States, and this coincidence might well provide the occasion for referring to the great loss which had befallen this country by the death of Lord Pauncefote. He would not take up the time of the Committee by repeating the facts contained in the able and interesting obituary notices which had appeared in the Press of this country and the United States, and of foreign countries, in all of which full justice had been done to that eminent man, and to the great services he rendered, which had been recalled to their memories. But the Committee should not separate without some word being said by those who, like himself, had had the advantage of serving with Lord Pauncefote. He noticed in one of the telegrams from the United States that day that a tribute had been paid to him by an eminent American statesman, Mr. Olney, who Said of him—
A well-trained and admirable lawyer, he had the judicial temperament, could see both sides of a question, and could fully appreciate arguments not favourable to the contention it was his duty to espouse.Those were words which admirably expressed the chief and pre-eminent characteristic of Lord Pauncefote—his great power of appreciating, not only the arguments on his own side, but also those which he had to meet. It was to that judicial faculty, which he possessed 654 in addition to the ordinary arts of the diplomatist, that a very great portion, he believed, of his successes were due. Lord Granville had himself told him that, although it had been to his advantage to have had under him other eminent men, he could honestly say that there was no man to whom he felt he owed a greater debt of official obligation than he did to Sir Julian Pauncefote. Those were words of very high praise, and he felt sure that hon. and right hon. friends of his who had had the advantage of serving with Lord Pauncefote would agree with him in saying that it was a great advantage and privilege to have served with him, and that there was no man who did not feel that he had learnt a great deal from him, and especially for a reason which he might allude to at this time when they heard so much of the necessity of developing imperial obligations. The fact that Lord Pauncefote had his original training at the Colonial Office before he went to the Foreign Office gave him an unusual breadth of view and an intimate knowledge of foreign questions, not only from the point of view of the trained diplomatist, important as that point of view was, but also from the point of view of our great Colonial Empire. He hoped the Committee would forgive him these few observations, and would not think it unnatural for him to make them, because it was his privilege to serve several years in the Foreign Office with Lord Pauncefote before his distinguished career as a diplomatist abroad began.
§ MR. BRYCE (Aberdeen, S.)said that as he had also served with Lord Pauncefote, perhaps he might be allowed to add one or two words to what had been said by his noble friend. Lord Pauncefote was a man of the greatest power of mind. He never entered upon a subject without mastering it, and what struck those who had to do with him was the complete knowledge which he acquired of every topic with which he had to deal. He had what diplomatists seldom possessed, not only a mastery of all the arts of diplomacy, but also great legal knowledge and a firm grasp of legal principles. With that he was the most sincere and candid of colleagues and the 655 most genial and kindly of friends. Having been twice in the United States during the time in which Lord Pauncefote was Ambassador, he would like to be permitted to say that he did not think there had ever been in our time any representative of this country abroad who had more completely gained the confidence and won the respect of the people among whom he served. He never had an opportunity of asking or hearing the opinion of any American statesman or publicist with regard to Lord Pauncefote without hearing the warmest appreciation of his uprightness, sincerity, ability, and perfect truth. It was those qualities, coupled with the great natural simplicity and kindness of his nature, which made him obtain a position of so much influence in the United States, and it was fitting that the Committee should be made aware that the better relations which had so happily subsisted between this country and the United States for some years past were due not a little to the confidence which Lord Pauncefote's character inspired.
*(11.48.) LORD CEANBORNEIt has not been my lot, as it had been that of previous Under Secretaries who have spoken tonight, to have served in the Foreign Office when Lord Pauncefote was a member of it, but his reputation there is very great. We cannot but feel that in the loss we have sustained, the country is the poorer by the loss of its greatest diplomatist. He had served this country through many important moments in our relations with the United States. Some of them were anxious, some of them were of the friendliest character; but in all he seemed to have acquired that greatest art of the diplomatist—the art of winning the regard, and I may say the affection, of the people among whom as a diplomatist his lot was thrown. I think I may say that a large measure of the friendly feeling which exists at this moment between ourselves and the United States may be laid at the door of Lord Pauncefote.
I shall have only a very few minutes to reply to the observations of the right hon. Gentleman the 656 Member for the Forest of Dean and the hon. Gentleman opposite. With regard to the right hon. Gentleman's criticism of the form of the trade returns of Zanzibar, I think it is hardly fair to attribute everything that takes place in Zanzibar to the British Government. We-are undoubtedly the protecting Power, but Protectorates are of many degrees. In some cases they differ only in name from absolute sovereignty, but that is not the case in Zanzibar. There is there a distinct autonomous Government, exercising all the functions of a Government; and we are, in a measure, no more than a supervising and controlling Power. I quite admit, however, that the criticism of the right Hon. Gentleman as to the form of these returns is just, and, of course, it will be set right, and the necessary directions to secure that will be given. As regards slavery, I do not think I have a great deal to add to the remarks I made in reply to the hon. Gentleman last year. He has repeated, if I may say so with great respect, a great deal of what he said last year. As far as I know, there has been no kidnapping in Zanzibar. The Hon. Member may have heard of a case, and if he will bring it to our notice it will be inquired into; but as far as we know, there has been no case of kidnapping in Zanzibar or Pemba. No doubt, misdeeds may occur in the best governed countries; it is impossible to prevent people doing wrong, but if they do wrong, and are found out, then, of course, they are heavily punished. As to the ordinary attack delivered by certain hon. Gentlemen against what they call the continuance of slavery under the British flag, the hon. Gentleman has mixed up, in hopeless confusion, the state of things existing on the islands and the state of things existing on the mainland. Anyone not familiar with the subject, and hearing the hon. Member, would imagine that people were compulsorily kept in bondage in Zanzibar and Pemba. The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that that is not the case. As a matter of fact, no man need remain a slave in Zanzibar or Pemba an hour longer than he pleases. He has only to go to a court and demand emancipation.
* MR. JOSEPH A. PEASEsaid his case was that the regulations imposed in the islands made slavery more popular than freedom; and that was the reason why people did not apply for emancipation.
§ * LORD CRANBORNEI do not know what the hon. Gentleman means. A man has to earn his own living. I have never contended that, in all respects, the life of a free man is as happy as the life of a slave. As a matter of fact, in many respects the free man is not so happy as the slave. The slave has certain rights as against his master in respect of maintenance, of being looked after when he is ill, and so forth, which make his position in some respects better than that o' a free man. No regulations which the Government can impose can relieve a free man from the necessity of earning his livelihood; and as a matter of fact the comfortable condition of many of the slaves in Zanzibar has militated against emancipation; but that is not the fault of the Government. Then the hon. Gentleman said that another great evil had followed on emancipation. He told us, with great truth, that the result of emancipation in the case of a large number of women was to enormously increase prostitution. That is perfectly true, but it is not the fault of the Government. No regulations we could make could prevent such a result, except that we might delay the process of emancipation. I confess when the hon. Gentleman called attention to these undoubted evils which follow on emancipation, I was surprised to hear he was in favour of total and instantaneous emancipation. Do not the very arguments he himself has addressed to the Committee lead us to conclude that we want to do these things with a certain degree of deliberation, 658 and that certain precautions ought to be taken before emancipation is finally carried out?
* MR. JOSEPH A. PEASEI feel sure the noble Lord will pardon another interruption, and does not wish to misrepresent me. My point in regard to the existence of immorality on the islands was that it was attributable to the conditions due to the institution of slavery, and that it was within the knowledge of every white man who visited the place that the prostitution which prevailed there was the result of slavery and not of freedom.
§ * LORD CRANBORNEWe are not responsible for slavery. It was there when we got there, and produced a degree of demoralisation, of which prostitution is one of the results. The hon. Gentleman complained of the way in which free labour was treated. He said that even a free labourer was not allowed to choose, after emancipation, where he would work. There is some foundation for that charge. Undoubtedly the case mentioned by the hon. Gentleman did occur, but it is not fair to say that what was done was done with the cognisance and approval of His Majesty's Government. On the contrary, it was at once pointed out by the responsible official's superior that it was an improper proceeding. The reason why emancipation has diminished is patent on the face of it. The greater part of the slaves who had been badly treated by their masters have already been emancipated, and many of those who remain slaves are happy as they are. I should be very glad if slavery were entirely abolished, and I can assure hon. Gentlemen that 659 the desire of the Government is now, and always has been, to see the end o£ slavery. We are glad it is already ended on the islands, as far as the Government are concerned, and that it is drawing to an end on the mainland.
§ (11.57.) Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 59; Noes, 123. (Division List No. 179.)
661| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) | Harmsworth, R. Leicester | O'Mara, James |
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | Pease, Herbert Pike Darlington |
| Blake, Edward | Healy, Timothy Michael | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Helme, Norval Watson | Rigg, Richard |
| Caldwell, James | Lambert George | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Cawley, Frederick | Leamy, Edmund | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) |
| Channing, Francis Allston | MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. | Spencer, Rt. Hn C. R. (N'rth'nts |
| Clancy, John Joseph | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Sullivan, Donal |
| Craig, Robert Hunter | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr |
| Creor, William Randal | M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | Thomas, J A (Glamorg'n, Gow'r |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | M'Kean, John | Thotnpson, F. W. (York, W. R) |
| Delany, William | M'Killon, W. (Sligo, North) | Weir, James Galloway |
| Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Morton, Edw. J. C.(Devonport) | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Doogan, P. C. | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Ffreneh, Peter | Nohin, Joseph (Louth, South) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid | |
| Fuller, J. M. F. | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W) | Mr. Joseph A. Pease and Mr. Norman. |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Lawrence, Joseph (Monmouth) |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Lawson, John Grant |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Cranhorne, Viscount | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Dalkeith, Earl of | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Dalryniple, Sir Charles | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Dickson, Charles Scott | Lock wood, Lt.-Col. A. R. |
| Balcarres, Lord | Dorington, Sir John Edward | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Loyd, Archie Kirkman |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds | Fielden, Edward Broeklehurst | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Finch, George H. | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Macdona, John Gumming |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Fisher, William Hayes | Maclver, David, (Liverpool) |
| Bond, Erward | Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Maconochie, A. W. |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Galloway, William Johnson | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) |
| Brassey, Albert | Gardner, Ernest | Majendie, James A. H. |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Gordon, J. (Londonderry. S.) | Martin, Richard Biddulph |
| Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon | Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.) |
| Bull, William James | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G. |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Gretton, John | Molesworth, Sir Lewis |
| Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Hamilton, Rt. Hn Lord G. (Mid'x | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy |
| Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. | Morrison, James Archibald |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. | Heath, James (Statfords., N. W. | Mount, William Arthur |
| Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r | Henderson, Alexander | Parker, Gilbert |
| Chapman, Edward | Higginbottom, S. W. | Pilkington, Lieut-Col. Richard |
| Charrington, Spencer | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Hoult, Joseph | Purvis, Robert |
| Clive, Captain Percy A. | Jessel, Captain Herbert Morton | Rankin, Sir James |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Johnstone, Haywood (Sussex) | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Keswick, William | Ratcliff, R. F. |
| Colomb, Sir. John Charles Ready | Kimher, Henry | Renwick, George |
| Ridley, Hon. M. W.(Stalybridge | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) | Webb, Colonel William George |
| Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson | Stroyan, John | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Ropner, Colonel Robert | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier | Wills, Sir Frederick |
| Round, James | Wilson, John (Glasgow) | |
| Royds, Clement Molyneux | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
| Rutherford, John | Thornton, Percy M. | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray | ||
| Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward | |
| Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— | |
| Sinclair, Louis (Romford) | Valentia, Viscount | Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Smith, H. C (N'rth'mb. Tyneside | Walker, Col. William Hall | |
| Stanley, Ed ward Jas. (Somerset) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
§ It being after midnight, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
§ Resolutions to be reported tomorrow; Committee also report progress; to sit again tomorrow.