§ 1. "That a number of Land Forces, not exceeding 420,000, all ranks, be maintained for the Service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland at Home and Abroad, excluding His Majesty's Indian Possessions, during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903."
§ 2. "That a sum, not exceeding £18,940,400, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge for the Pay, Allowances, and other Charges, of His Majesty's Army at Home and Abroad (exclusive of India) (General Staff, Regiments, Reserve, and Departments), which will come in course of payment during the year ending On the 31st day of March, 1903."
§ Resolutions read a second time.
§ First Resolution:—
§ (10.58) MR. DILLONI beg to move the reduction of the number of men by 1,500, the number of the Chinese regiment. As I understand, the policy of enrolling these men for use against their 964 own countrymen was inaugurated in connection with the establishment of Wei-Hai-Wei as a fortress and naval base. I always thought that the policy of enrolling men of different races and nationalities in the British Army was a foolish and mischievous policy. To get those men, as was the case in the war with China, to fight against their own countrymen is a policy which is bound to result in many evil consequences. Although the whole policy of treating Wei-Hai-Wei as a naval base has now been abandoned, the proposal made in connection with that policy to enrol a Chinese regiment has not been abandoned, and it is proposed to maintain a Chinese regiment, not only at 1,000 men as originally suggested, but it is now proposed to increase that number to 1,500. I wish to know what is going to be done with this force. Is this Chinese regiment going to remain in Wei-Hai-Wei, or will it be removed elsewhere, and if so, where? I beg to move a reduction of this Vote by 1,500 men.
§
Amendment proposed—
To leave out '420,000,' and insert '418,500.'" —(Mr.Dillon.)
§ Question proposed, "That 420,000' stand part of the Resolution."
§ *(11.3.) SIR CHARLES DILKEWith regard to this Chinese regiment, the position of affairs is even more curious than that which has been mentioned by my hon. friend. My hon. friend has moved a reduction of this Vote by 1,500 men. It is perfectly true that last year a decision was arrived at to increase this regiment to 1,500 or 1,600 men, but the number on the Estimates is for just over 1,000. We have been informed by the Government in a recent debate in another place that the question of disbanding this regiment is under consideration. Therefore we are in the curious position that first the decision is arrived at to increase the regiment, and then we are told that it is under consideration whether or not it shall be disbanded. Now the House is asked to vote 1,000 or 1,100 men. Having said this much upon the Motion of my hon. friend, I should like to ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether it would be better for me to ask some questions on which I desire information from the Government upon this Amendment, or wait until the Amendment has either been withdrawn or disposed of.
§ * MR. SPEAKERThe Amendment had better be disposed of first.
LORD STANLEYThe hon. Member for East Mayo has brought forward a proposition that we should not employ the natives of a country as troops where they may be called upon to fight against their own countrymen. That is not the case in China.
§ MR. DILLONWhat I pointed out was that these Chinamen remained technically subjects of the Emperor of China, although they were enrolled in a British regiment.
LORD STANLEYQuite so, because we do not hope to have any aggression on the part of China. We look to this regiment to guard that part of China which at present remains under the dominion of our flag. Therefore we are trying in those countries which we are taking under our protection to instil into the natives such instruction in military matters as we give to the natives of India and other countries, as will enable them to take their part with us in the defence of that part of the Empire. This is all that is being done in China. The right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean has referred to the fact that we asked for more men than we have been able to get. I am afraid that that is a thing which we have had experience of at home as well as abroad, and we hope to be able to get the number of men we asked for. It has not been decided to disband this regiment, as has been stated by the right hon. baronet.
§ * SIR CHARLES DILKEI did not say that. What I said was that the question of disbanding this regiment had been stated in another place to be under consideration.
LORD STANLEYWe still hope to be able to keep this regiment in that state of efficiency in which we keep our Indian regiments. Regiments are kept up in this way in other parts of the globe under our rule in order to act as part of our Army, and that is the reason we are taking this sum of money in the present form.
§ SIR JOHN COLOMB (Great Yarmouth)I entirely agree with the general policy. We were told originally that Wei-Hai-Wei was to be a secondary naval base. This Chinese regiment was established as part of the arrangment. We have now been told quite casually by the Admiralty that Wei-Hai-Wei is not going to be a secondary naval base at all, and that it is not going to be fortified. You are now asking the Committee to vote the money for this regiment, although it has not yet been decided whether you are going to maintain it or not. I should like to know, if it is decided to keep up this regiment, whether it will be retained at Wei-Hai-Wei or not?
§ (11.8.) MR. LOUGH (Islington, W.)Really this is a matter which ought to be made a little more clear to us. The most important point put by the right hon. Baronet has not been answered at all from the Treasury Bench. The right hon. Baronet told us that the Government have announced in another place that this regiment is to be disbanded.
§ * SIR CHARLES DILKENo; what I said was that they are considering the question of disbanding it.
§ MR. LOUGHWe want to hear something on that point. Why is it under consideration to disband the regiment, and why has not some decision been taken with regard to it? We ought to have some clear information from the Government with regard to this particular point, which has not been touched upon in the reply which has been given. The answer we have had puts us in a still greater difficulty. The noble Lord said that he had every hope that the arms of these Chinamen would not be turned against their fellow countrymen. That, however, was only a benevolent hope. I would like to ask who else could they be turned against? The noble Lord indicated that they were for defence against some great Power, but how ridiculous that was. The creation of this force is an example of many other forces that have been created in Africa 967 with very scanty information being given with regard to them, and without any direct knowledge on the part of the House as to the objects the Government have in view in bringing those forces into existence. It has now been stated that the Government are thinking of disbanding this Chinese regiment. I certainly hope that, if we do not get more
§ information upon this point, the reduction which has been moved by my hon. friend will be supported from all sides of the House.
§ (11.10.) Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 194; Noes, 84. (Division List No. 67.)
969| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Fison, Frederick William | Moore, William (Antrim, N.) |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Morgan, D. J. (Walthomstow) |
| Allhusen, Augustus Hy. Eden | Flower, Ernest | Morrell, George Herbert |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Foster, PhilipS. (Warwick, SW. | Morton, Arthur H A. (Deptford) |
| Archdale, Edward Mervyn | Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | Moulton, John Fletcher |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Gardner, Ernest | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Muntz, Philip A. |
| Bagot, Capt. Joseeline Fitz Roy | Gordon, Hn. J E. (Elgin & Nairn) | Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) |
| Bain, Col. James Robert | Graham, Henry Robert | Nicholson, William Graham |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r | Green, Walford D (Wednesbury | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Parker, Gilbert |
| Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds | Groves, James Grimble | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. | Guthrie, Walter Murray | Peel, Hn Wm. Robert Wellesley |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Hamilton, Rt Hn. Lord G. (Mid'x | Penn, John |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nderry | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Beach, Rt Hon Sir Michael Hicks | Hardy, Laurence (K'nt, Ashford | Plummer, Walter R. |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Bignold, Arthur | Harmsworth, R. Leicester | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Purvis, Robert |
| Bond, Edward | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Pym, C. Guy |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley | Randles, John S. |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Heath,James (Staffords, N. W.) | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne |
| Bull, William James | Helder, Augustus | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Bullard, Sir Harry | Henderson, Alexander | Renshaw, Charles Bine |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Hoare, Sir Samuel | Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge |
| Butcher, John George | Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. | Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green |
| Cavendish, V. C W. (Derbyshire | Hogg, Lindsay | Ritchie, Rt Hn, Chas, Thompson |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Holland, William Henry | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. | Hope, J F. (Sheffield, Brightside | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r | Houston, Robert Paterson | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| Chapman, Edward | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter |
| Charrington, Spencer | Johnston, William (Belfast) | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Clive, Captain Percy A. | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T (Denbigh) | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Keswick, William | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Knowles, Lees | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Lawrence, Joseph (Monmouth) | Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) | Seton-Karr, Henry |
| Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) | Lawson, John Grant | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham | Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew) |
| Cust, Henry John C. | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
| Dairymple, Sir Charles | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) |
| Davenport, William Bromley- | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Smith, H. C (North'mb, Tyn'side |
| Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham | Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.) |
| Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- | Long, Rt Hn. Walter (Bristol, S) | Stanley, Edward J. (Somerset.) |
| Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Dorington, Sir John Edward | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Macartney, Rt Hn. W G. Ellison | Stroyan, John |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Macdona, John Cumming | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton | Maclver, David (Liverpool) | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) | Manners, Lord Cecil | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Martin, Richard Biddulph | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r | Max well, W J H (Dumfriesshire | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray |
| Finch, George H. | Melville, Beresford Valentine | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Firbank, Joseph Thomas | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. | Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Valentia, Viscount | Willox, Sir John Archibald | Woodhouse, Sir J T. (Huddersf'd |
| Warde, Colonel. C. E. | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) | Wylie, Alexander |
| Welby, Lt. -Col. A. CE (Taunton | Wilson, John (Glasgow) | |
| Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Whitmore, Charles Algernon | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) | Sir William Walrond andMr. Anstruther. |
| Willoughby de Eresby, Lord | Wodehouse, Rt Hon. E R. (Bath) | |
| NOES | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) | Hammond, John | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
| Allen, Charles P. (Glouc. Stroud | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon,N |
| Ambrose, Robert | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | O'Malley, William |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Helme, Norval Watson | O'Mara, James |
| Blake, Edward. | Joyce, Michael | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Boland, John | Kennedy, James, Patrick | O'Shee, James John |
| Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Lumbert, George | Pirie, Duncan V. |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Caldwell, James | Levy, Maurice | Price, Robert John |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Landon, W. | Priestley, Arthur |
| Carew, James Lawrence | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Rea, Russell |
| Cawley, Frederick | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Roche, John |
| Channing, Francis Allston | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Runciman, Walter |
| Cogan, Denis J. | M'Hugh, Patrick A. | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | M'Kean, John | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
| Craig, Robert, Hunter | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Crean, Eugene | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) |
| Cremer, William Randal | Markham, Arthur Basil | Sullivan, Donal |
| Cullinan, J. | Murphy, John | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr |
| Delany, William | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Tomkinson, James |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Doogan, P. C. | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Whitley,.J. H. (Halifax) |
| Farrell; James Patrick | O' Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Fenwick, Charles | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Ffrench, Peter | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) |
| Flynn, James Christopher | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W) | Young, Samuel |
| Fuller, J. M. F. | O'Connor T. P. (Liverpool.) | |
| Gilhooly, James | O'Donnell. T. (Kerry, W.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | O'Dowd, John | Mr. Dillon and Mr. Lough. |
Resolution agreed to.
§ *(11.20.) SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid there were two points not discussed in Committee which he should like to put to the Secretary of State for War with regard to his scheme. He wanted to know whether the Government had thought out the effect of the new figures upon the linked battalion system. Last year the right hon. Gentleman in his statement told the House what were the views of the Government with regard to the future of the linked battalion system, but there were certain points which had changed since then, and which must therefore affect that view. Apart from the question of whether the allowance of the Government for the number of men they would have permanently to keep in South Africa was sufficient, four additional battalions, two of Munsters and two of Liverpools, had been disbanded.
§ MR. BRODRICKThey could not be disbanded when they were not formed.
§ * SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid "disbanded" was not his word. It was the Government word. He could quote the 970 answer in which the right hon. Gentleman used the word. Then there were coaling stations which the Admiralty was to have taken over and had refused. These items disturbed the scheme of the linked battalions which was put before the House last year. No statement was made on the subject this year, and they were left in ignorance of how the system would work out in future. Another point was the cost of the new arrangement to India. Five years ago the most powerful argument the right hon. Gentleman was able to bring to bear against the shorter period for home service, and such a scheme as was now adopted, was the cost to India. He attacked some Members of the House, and said their scheme would involve an additional cost to India of £640,000. The right hon. Gentleman had now produced a scheme which involved a larger cost to India. The Indian Government had repeatedly put before Parliament that if they were to have men of proper age and allowed to keep them until the completion of ten or twelve years service it would be an economy. But under the Government 971 scheme they were given six years service. That was sure to be a costly service for the Indian Government.
§ MR. SPEAKERpointed out to the right hon. Gentleman that this Vote was for Great Britain and Ireland, excluding India.
§ * SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid he had finished what he had to say, although he should be prepared to argue that his remarks were in order, because this affected the number of men at home under the linked battalion system.
§ (11.27.) MR. BRODRICKsaid the right hon. Gentleman had appealed to him about the linked battalions, and he had no difficulty in answering him. The Government had not disbanded the four battalions referred to. The Munsters had never been formed. They were originally contemplated, but the battalions of the Irish Guards were substituted. It became unnecessary to ask for two battalions from Liverpool. We had under the new system seventy-eight battalions abroad, and we should have seventy-eight battalions at home. He hoped the Admiralty would be induced to take over the garrisoning of the coaling stations. The right hon. Baronet had asked whether the term of service in India might not be extended to ten or twelve years; but he thought that a period of between six and seven years was as long a time as it was desirable to assign in the case of the majority of the men. Of course, there might be exceptional men who might serve for a longer time without injury to their constitutions.
§ Second Resolution:—
§ MR. WHITLEYsaid he would move the reduction of the Vote by the nominal sum of £100, in order to call attention to the delay in the payment of the money due to the Yeomanry returned from the war in South Africa. On the previous Friday he had given two illustrations which came within his own experience of such delay, and he dared say almost every Member of the House 972 could give similar instances. He had been greatly surprised when the right hon. Gentleman had in his reply dealt with the two instances he had quoted as if that were the whole extent of the deficiencies of his Department. But in the Report of the Auditor General it was stated that there was no less a sum than half a million due to our soldiers, which had been received at the War Office on 10th September, 1901, and which had not yet been paid out on 11th February, 1902. There must have been some culpable delay at the War Office if these figures were correct, and an explanation was due to the House.
§
Amendment proposed—
To leave out '£18,940,400' and insert '£18,940,300.'"—(Mr. Whitley.)
§ Question proposed,"That '£18,940,400' stand part of the Resolution."
(11.35.) LORD STANLEYsaid that the hon. Member was labouring under a mistake. All the money due to the soldiers in South Africa had been paid, but the accounts had not in all cases been received at home owing to the inevitable difficulties of collecting the pay-sheets. The men had been trekking from day to day, and if any delay had occurred in the case of a few men it was because they had fallen out of the column either sick or wounded and had come home. The War Office had done their best in every way to meet the men. If these had the slightest documentary proof at all, although the pay-sheets had not been received from South Africa, the great proportion of the sum due was given on account. A special Committee had been formed to deal with such cases, and there was not now, so far as he knew, an outstanding account. But if the hon. Member could give him a specific case he would undertake himself to investigate it.
§ MR. WHITLEYsaid that in view of the satisfactory statement of the noble Lord he would withdraw his Motion.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
§ (11.44.) MR. FLYNN (Cork, N.)said he found there was an increase of £30,000 973 on the Estimates in respect of the pay of the Colonial contingents. Now, he contended that these Colonial contingents were not entitled to higher pay than the men from England and Ireland. Loyalty he could understand, but it should be loyalty on equal terms, and not 1s. a day to one class and 5s. a day to another. It was one of the most striking injustices in connection with the whole campaign to give increased pay to the Colonial contingents. He had seen it stated in Colonial newspapers that the explanation of such a large number of Colonials at the war was that there was lack of employment in the Colonies, and that the men eagerly grasped at the pay offered them. He asked any sensible man whether a unit in the imperial Yeomanry was worth five times as much as the average soldier of the line. He thought they ought to divide the House as a protest against the unfair manner in which the ordinary soldier was treated.
§ MR. DILLONsaid he wished to ask a question with reference to the pay of the local forces in South Africa. He wished to know whether the sum of £1,600.000 included pay for the forces which had been transferred from Lord Kitchener to the Cape Government. He really thought it too bad if the House were to be called upon to pay for those troops.
§ (11.48.) MR. O'MARAsaid he entirely endorsed what had fallen from his hon. friend the Member for North Cork. The Imperial Yeomanry had only distinguished themselves by their appearance in the casualty lists as missing. The surrenders of the regular troops were not half as frequent as the surrenders of the Yeomanry, and yet they were paid 5s. a day. He wished to ask the Secretary of State for War for an explanation of the enormous reduction in Sub-Head H, for gratuities to the troops on active service. It was only £350,000, while last year it was £2,340,000. He had listened very carefully to the debate, but had not heard any explanation of that reduction. He also observed that the recruiting expenses were estimated at about a fifth of what they were last year, namely, £37,000 as against £219,000. He presumed that the Secretary of State imagined that the inducement he held out of 6d. a day 974 extra would be sufficient to attract recruits, without advertising the other advantages of the Army. He himself last year recommended an increase in the pay of the troops and a decrease in the pay of the general staff. He viewed with concern an increase in the pay of the troops while the pay of the generals was not decreased, as his constituency would have to pay for it just as well as the most prosperous constituency in England. He also noticed that there was an enormous increase in the wages paid to ex-soldiers. Last year the Estimate was £254,000, whereas now it was estimated as £680,000. Then there was a sum of money for the lieutenant and major of the Tower of London, and he should be glad to learn what useful occupations those gentlemen pursued. He also wished to have an explanation of the amount taken for table money of general officers. He thought the pay given to general officers ought to be sufficient to provide them with all the delicacies they required, without giving them an allowance as table money. He hoped an explanation would be given on the point he had mentioned.
§ (11.55.) MR. PIRIE (Aberdeen, N.)said he trusted the noble Lord would be able to answer the two questions to which he had already drawn attention. One was the difference there was in the authority on which extra pay was given to the Imperial Yeomanry and to the irregular corps. The pay was given to the Imperial Yeomanry by special Royal Warrant, but according to the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General no such authority was given with reference to the pay of irregular corps locally raised, especially town guards. He should be glad to know on what authority that pay was given. He also wished to direct attention to the age of enlistment of troops.
§ * Mr. SPEAKERThis is only the Money Vote.
§ MR. PIRIEsaid he was referring to the scheme which the right hon. Gentleman had placed before the House, and which contained an entirely novel condition of enlistment.
§ * MR SPEAKERIt does not follow that that would be in order on this Vote.
§ MR. PIRIEsaid the matter was closely connected with the pay of the troops. He had already drawn attention to it in Committee, and now merely wished to ask for a definite reply to the remarks he had already made. It was a most striking fact that a recruit was not threatened with any punishment at all for giving a false answer as to age.
§ MR. SPEAKERThat clearly has nothing to do with this Vote.
§ MR. PIRIEsaid he would in that case merely say that the scheme fell short in several particulars of what the country had a right to expect. There were at the
§ present moment something like 4,000 infantry Volunteers in South Africa waiting to be relieved, and the reason they were not relieved was that the Volunteers naturally preferred to go out at 5s. a day instead of at 1s. To his mind that was a short-sighted policy.
§ It being Midnight, Mr. SPEAKER proceeded to interrupt the Business.
§ Whereupon MR. BRODRICK rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
§ (12.0.) Question put, "That the Question be now put."
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 184; Noes, 85. (Division List No. 68.)
977| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Dewar, T R (T'rH'mlets, S. Geo.) | Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh) |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Keswick, William |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- | Knowles, Lees |
| Allhusen, Augustus Hy. Eden | Disracli, Coningsby Ralph | Lawrence, Joseph (Monmouth) |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Dorington,Sir John Edward | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Lawson, John Grant |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Duke, Henry Edward | Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareh'm |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy | Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W. | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Llewellyn, Evan Henry |
| Baird John George Alexander | Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J (Manc'r | Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manech'r | Finch, George H. | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Firbank, Joseph Thomas | Long, Rt Hon. Walt. (Bristol, S) |
| Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds | Fisher, William Hayes | Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale) |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. | Fison, Frederick William | Loyd, Archie Kirkman |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Ellison |
| Beach, Rt Hn Sir Michael Hicks | Flower, Ernest | Maedona, John Cumming |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Foster, PhilipS (Warwick,S. W. | MacIver, David (Liverpool) |
| Bignold, Arthur | Gardner, Ernest | Manners, Lord Cecil |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Martin, Richard Biddulph |
| Bond, Edward | Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn) | Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) | Melville, Beresford Valentine |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Line.) | Montagu., Hon. J. Scott (Hants.) |
| Bull, William James | Graham, Henry Robert | Moore, William (Antrim, N.) |
| Bullard Sir Harry | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Green, Walford D. (Wednesbury | Morgan, David J. (W'lth'mstow |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Morrell, George Herbert |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Groves, James Grimble | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. | Guthrie, Walter Murray | Muntz, Philip A. |
| Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r | Hall, Edward Marshall | Murray, Rt Hn. A. Gr'h'm (Bute |
| Chapman, Edward | Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) |
| Charrington, Spencer | Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nderry | Nicholson, William Graham |
| Clive, Captain Percy | Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Hare, Thomas Leigh | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Parker, Gilbert |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Pease, Herbt. Pike (Darlington) |
| Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready | Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley | Peel, Hn. Wm. Robt. Wellesley |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow | Heath, James (Staffords. N. W. | Penn, John |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Helder, Augustus | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) | Henderson, Alexander | Plummer, Walter R. |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Hoare, Sir Samuel | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Hohbouse, Henry (Somereset, E. | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Cust, Henry John C. | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside | Purvis, Robert |
| Dairymple, Sir Charles | Houston, Robert Paterson | Randles, John S. |
| Davenport, William Bromley- | Johnson, William (Belfast) | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne |
| Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Renshaw, Charles Bine | Simeon, Sir Barrington | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Renwick, George | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) | Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd |
| Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge) | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Ridley, S Forde (Bethnal Green) | Smith, H C (North'mb. Tyneside | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
| Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks) | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) | Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) |
| Rolleston, Sir John F. L. | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Royds, Clement Molyneux | Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.) |
| Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- | Stroyan, John | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath) |
| Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley | Wylie, Alexander |
| Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) | |
| Seely, Maj. J. E B (Isle of Wight | Thornton, Percy M. | |
| Seton-Karr, Henry | Toliemache, Henry James | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Sharpe, William Edward T. | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray | Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew) | Valentia, Viscount | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
| Allen, Charles P (Gloue., Stroud | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | O'Dowd, John |
| Ambrose, Robert | Healy, Timothy Michael | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
| Blake, Edward | Helme, Norval Watson | O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.) |
| Boland, John | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire | O'Malley, William |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Joyce, Michael | O'Mara, James |
| Caldwell, James | Kearley, Hudson E. | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Kennedy, Patrick James | O'Shee, James John |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Lambert, George | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Cawley, Frederick | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Price, Robert John |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Levy, Maurice | Priestley, Arthur |
| Cogan, Denis J. | Lough, Thomas | Rea, Russell |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Lundon, W. | Roche, John |
| Craig, Robert Hunter | Mac Neill, John Gordon Swift | Runciman, Walter |
| Crean Eugene | Mac Veagh, Jeremiah | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Cremer, William Randall | M'Hugh, Patrick A. | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
| Cullinan, J. | M'Kean, John | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Delany, William | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) |
| Dillon, John | M'Laren, Charles Benjamin | Sullivan, Donal |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr |
| Doogan, P. C. | Markham, Arthur Basil | Tomkinson, James |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Murphy, John | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Ffrench, Peter | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Flynn, James Christopher | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.) |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Woodhouse, Sir J T. (Huddersf'd |
| Fuller, J. M. F. | O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid | |
| Gilhooly, James | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | |
| Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Hammond, John | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. | Mr. Pirie and Mr.Warner. |
| Harmsworth, R. Leicester | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
§ (12.10.) Question put accordingly, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
978§ The House divided:—Ayes, 207; Noes, 50 (Division List No. 69.)
981| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitzroy | Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Bailey, James (Walworth) | Banbury, Frederick George |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Bain, Colonel James Robert | Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin |
| Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden | Baird, John George Alexander | Beach, Rt Hn Sir Michael Hicks |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r | Bentinck, Lord Henry C. |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Bignold, Arthur |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds | Blundell, Colonel Henry |
| Bond, Edward | Harmsworth, R. Leicester | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Price, Robert John |
| Bull, William James | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | Priestley, Arthur |
| Bullard, Sir Harry | Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley | Purvis, Robert |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Heath, James (Staffords., N. W. | Randles, John S. |
| Caldwell, James | Helder, Augustus | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne |
| Cavendish,V. C. W. (D'rbyshire | Helme, Norval Watson | Rea, Russell |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Henderson, Alexander | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. | Hoare, Sir Samuel | Renshaw, Charles Bine |
| Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r | Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. | Renwick, George |
| Chapman, Edward | Hope J. F. (Sh'ffield, Brightside | Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge) |
| Charrington, Spencer | Houston, Robert Paterson | Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green |
| Clive, Capt. Percy A. | Johnston, William (Belfast) | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Kearley, Hudson E. | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready | Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh) | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow | Keswick, William | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Knowles, Lees | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Craig, Robert Hunter | Lambert, George | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) | Lawrence, Joseph (Monmouth) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Lawson John Grant | Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight |
| Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Seton-Karr, Henry |
| Cust, Henry John C. | Lee, Arthur H. (Hants. Fareh'm | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Dairymple, Sir Charles | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew) |
| Davenport, W. Bromley- | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
| Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham | Levy, Maurice | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) |
| Dewar, T. R. (T'rH'ml'ts, S. Geo | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) |
| Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. | Smith, HC (North'mb. Tyneside |
| Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.) |
| Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S) | Smith, Hon. W. E. D. (Strand) |
| Dorington, Sir John Edward | Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) | Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart |
| Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton | Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Ellison | Stroyan, John |
| Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.) | Macdona, John Cumming | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Mac Iver, David (Liverpool) | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) | M'Laren, Charles Benjamin | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr |
| Finch, George H. | Manners, Lord Cecil | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Firbank, Joseph Thomas | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Markham, Arthur Basil | Tomkinson, James |
| Fison, Frederick William | Martin, Richard Biddulph | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray |
| Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | Maxwell, W. J. H (D'mfriesshire | Valentia, Viscount |
| Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Melville, Beresford Valentine | Warde, Colonel C. E. |
| Flower, Ernest | Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.) | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Foster, PhilipS. (Warwick, S. W | Moore, William (Antrim, N.) | Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Gardner, Ernest | Morgan, David J. (W'lthamstow | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Morrell, George Herbert | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
| Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin&Nairn | Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Gordon, J. (Londonderry, South | Muntz, Philip A. | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- (Line.) | Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) |
| Graham, Henry Robert | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Nicholson, William Graham | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.) |
| Green, Walford D. (W'dnesbury | Nicol, Donald Ninian | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath) |
| Greville, Hon. Ronald | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay | Woodhouse, Sir J. T (Hudd'rsfi'd |
| Groves, James Grimble | Parker, Gilbert | Wylie, Alexander |
| Guthrie, Walter Murray | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington | |
| Hall, Edward Marshall | Peel, Hn Wm. Robert Wellesley | |
| Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x | Penn, John | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry | Pierpoint, Robert | Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd | Pirie, Duncan V. | |
| Hare, Thomas Leigh | Plummer, Walter R. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E,) | Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Cullinan, J. |
| Ambrose, Robert | Cogan, Denis J. | Delany, William |
| Blake, Edward | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Dillon, John |
| Boland, John | Crean, Eugene | Doogan, P. C. |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Cremer, William Randal | Farrell, James Patrick |
| Ffrench, Peter | M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) | O'Mara, James |
| Flynn, James Christopher | Murphy, John | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Gilhooly, James | Nannetti, Joseph P. | O'Shee, James John |
| Hammond, John | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Hayden, John Patrick | O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid | Roche, John |
| Healy, Timothy Michael | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Joyce, Michael | O'Connor, J miles(Wicklow, W. | Sullivan, Donal |
| Kennedy, Patrick James | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| London, W. | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) |
| Mac Neill, John Gordon Swift | O'Dowd, John | |
| Mac Veagh,.Jeremiah | O'Kelly, Collor (Mayo, N.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| M'Hugh, Patrick A. | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N | Captain Donelan and Mr. Patrick O'Brien.> |
| M'Kean, John | O'Malley, William |
§ Ordered, That the Resolution which, upon the 3rd day of this instant March, was reported from the Committee of Supply, and which was then agreed to by the House, be now read.
§ "That 122,500 men and boys be employed for the Sea and Coast Guard Services for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, including 19,805 Royal Marines."
§ Ordered, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide, during twelve months, for the Discipline and Regulation of the Army; and that Mr. Secretary Brodrick, Mr. Arnold-Forster, and Lord Stanley do prepare and bring it in.