Commons Sitting of 30 June 1902

Preamble
The House met at Two of the clock.

ILLNESS OF THE KING—RESOLUTION OF THE HELLENIC PARLIAMENT.
MR. SPEAKERinformed the House that he had received the following letter relating to the illness of His Majesty the King—
Athens,
27th June, 1902.
To the Right Honourable William C. Gully, Speaker of the House of Commons.
The Hellenic Parliament, of the feelings of which I am the interpreter, rejoices at the news of the successful operation on His Majesty the King Edward, and offers, with the whole Hellenic nation, the warmest prayers to Almighty God for the speedy recovery of the beloved King.
The President of the Hellenic Parliament. (Signed) THEODORE RETZINAS.

UNOPPOSED PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  PRIVATE BILLS [LORDS] (STANDING ORDERS NOT PREVIOUSLY INQUIRED INTO COMPLIED WITH).
  MR. SPEAKERlaid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, viz—

  Baker Street and Waterloo Railway Bill [Lords].

  Barrow Haematite Steel Company, Limited, Bill [Lords].

  Great Northern and City Railway Bill [Lords].

  Great Northern and Strand Railway Bill [Lords].

  Hastings Tramways Bill [Lords].

  Mexborough and Swinton Tramways Bill [Lords]

  North-West London Railway Bill [Lords].

  Saddleworth and Springhead Tramways Bill[Lords].

  Ordered, that the Bills be read a second time.

  PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS (NO STANDING ORDERS APPLICABLE).
  MR. SPEAKERlaid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, viz.—
  Commons Regulation (Sodbury) Provisional Order Bill.
  Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time tomorrow.

  METROPOLITAN RAILWAY BILL.
  Read the third time, and passed.
  NEWCASTLE UPON-TYNK CORPORATION TRAMWAYS BILL [LORDS].
  Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
  LONDON UNITED TRAMWAYS BILL.
  As amended, considered, to be read the third time.
  BIRMINGHAM AND MIDLAND TRAMWAYS BILL [LORDS].
  Read a second time, and committed.
  WEARDALE AND SHELDON DISTRICT WATER BILL [LORDS]
  Read a second time, and committed.
  IRVINE CORPORATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
  Read the third time, and passed.
  EDUCATION ROARD PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (BARNES, ETC.) BILL [LORDS].
  Read a second time, and committed.

  MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
  That they have agreed to: City of London (Spitalfields Market) Bill, Halifax Corporation Bill, with Amendments. Amendments to Bradford Corporation Bill [Lords], Northumberland Electric Tramways Bill [Lords], Rickmansworth Gas Bill [Lords], without Amendment.
  That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confirm certain Provisional
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  Orders made by the Board of Trade under The Tramways Act, 1870, relating to Brighton Corporation Tramways, Cheadle and Gatley Urban District Council Tramways, Lees Urban District Council Tramways, Southport Corporation Tramways, Stockport Corporation Tramways, and Sunderland Corporation Tramways." [Tramways Orders Confirmation (No. 1) Bill [Lords.]
  Also a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under The Tramways Act, 1870, relating to Heywood Corporation Tramways, Leeds Corporation Tramways, Pontypridd Urban District Council Tramways, Southampton Corporation Tramways, West Riding Tramways (Knottingley Extension), and Wolverhampton Corporation Tramways." [Tramways Orders Confirmation (No. 2) Bill [Lords.]
  And also a Bill, intituled, "An Act to empower the Neath Rural District Council to obtain a supply of water from the river Tringarth, in the parish of Ystradfellte, in the county of Brecknock; to acquire the Cwm Avon gas and water undertaking; and for other purposes." [Ystradfellte Water Bill [Lords.]

  YSTRADFELLTE WATER BILL [Lords].
  Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
  TRAMWAYS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 1) BILL [LORDS].
  Read the first time; referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 258.]
  TRAMWAYS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 2) BILL [LORDS].
  Read the first time; referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 259.]
PETITIONS.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petition from Bolton, against; to lie upon the Table.
  LICENSING BILL.
  Petition from Littleborough, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  MARRIAGE WITH A DECEASED WIFE'S SISTER BILL.
  Petitions against: From Crewe and Kensington; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  WOODS, FORESTS, AND LAND REVENUES.
  Copy presented, of Eightieth Report of the Commissioners, dated 30th June, 1902 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed, [No. 247.]
  Copy presented, of Statistics of the Refugee Camps in South Africa [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  SALMON AND FRESHWATER FISHERIES (ENGLAND AND WALES).
  Copy presented, of Forty-first Annual Report of the Inspectors of Fisheries (England and Wales), for 1901 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  Copies presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, Nos. 2,832 and 2,833 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 5) BILL.
  Copy ordered, "of Memorandum stating the nature of the Proposals contained in the Provisional Orders included in the Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 5) Bill."—(Mr. Gerald Balfour.)
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 6) BILL.
  Copy ordered, "of Memorandum stating the Nature of the Proposals contained in the Provisional Orders included in the Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 6) Bill."—(Mr. Gerald Balfour.)
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Telegraphists' Commencing Wage.
  MR. SCHWANN: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether his attention has been called to the fact that since 1897 the initial or
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  starting pay of telegraphists has been 12s. a week, and in the case of learners or half-timers 6s. a week until appointment, and that a period of two years has elapsed before the wage of 12s. has been reached; and, seeing that the commencing wage has lately been rised to 8s. a week for half-timers, and 16s. a week on appointment (at various towns like Manchester and Birmingham), will he say what steps will be taken to place both classes on an equal footing.
  (Answer.) The Postmaster General is aware of the facts mentioned. He has no present intention of extending the special rate of pay which has been temporarily conceded, under quite exceptional circumstances, at certain of the more important post offices.—(Post Office.)

  Post Office Private Bags.
  MR. KENYON: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether he will state on what principle the regulations as to private bags are framed; whether the fees realised by the carriage of private bags are paid to the district postmasters as part of their salaries; whether agreements entered into by district postmasters are liable to be reversed by their successors on their retirement or promotion; and whether he will lay before Parliament a copy of the regulations now in force showing any changes which have been made during the last ten years.
  (Answer.) The principle upon which the regulations referred to are framed is that of assessing the fees to be paid by the owners of private bags according to the weight of their bags. The fees do not form part of the emoluments of postmasters, etc., except at some of the smaller sub-post offices. Postmasters have no authority to enter into agreements with regard to private bags, but are required to conform strictly to the regulations. These regulations are clearly shown on page 31 of the Post Office Guide, and the Postmaster General does not consider it necessary to lay them before Parliament. No change has been made in them during the last ten years.—(Post Office.)

  Charity Commission—Cornwallis Charity, Llansadwrn.
  MR. ALFRED DAVIES: To ask the hon. Member for the Tonbridge Division of Kent, as a Charity Commissioner, if he will state why the scheme published in July, 1896, for the Cornwallis Charity for the parish of Llansadwrn, Carmarthenshire, was not adopted; and, in the event of that scheme being incorrect, why no fresh scheme has been brought forward earlier; and will he say when he expects the promised new scheme to be in the hands of the Parish Council of Llansadwrn, and what time that body will have for its consideration.
  (Answer.) (1) The scheme to which the Question refers as published in 1896 was a scheme proposed to be made under The Welsh Intermediate Education Act, 1889. It was not proceeded with, because it was opposed. (2) The Commissioners awaited the result of the inquiry about to be conducted by their Assistant Commissioner in Llansadwrn and Llanwrda, before proposing a fresh scheme. (3) It is not possible to state at present when the new scheme, a draft of which is now being considered by the patron and the trustees, will be published. But there will be no unnecessary delay in the matter. (4) When the scheme is published, the Parish Council of Llansadwrn will receive a copy, and will have not less than a month for its consideration, and for making their observations upon it.—(Charity commission.)

  Kew Gardens—Queen's Cottage Grounds.
  MR. JOHN ELLIS: To ask the First Commissioner of Works whether he can say why the gates of the road or path leading through what is known as the Queen's Garden portion of Kew Gardens have been again closed and relocked: and why the people now enjoying this public place of resort cannot have the full facilities which were granted to them some time ago.
  (Answer.) The Queen's Cottage grounds were, I find, closed temporarily by order of the Director of Kew Gardens, as the path was impassable after the rain. I have desired him to open them again so
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  soon as the state of the ground permits. The Royal command to allow the public admission to the grounds must, of course, be respected.—(Office of Works.)

  Arrest of a British Sailor at Huelva, Spain.
  MR. ROBSON: To ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that a British sailor named Fitzgerald was arrested at Huelva, in Spain, in April last, on a charge of assault, and is still kept in gaol without trial; and whether; any steps have been taken, or will be taken, to procure his immediate trial or release.
  (Answer.) The acting Vice-Consul at Huelva reported on 14th May to His Majesty's Consul at Cadiz that Fitzgerald had been arrested and ceurtmartialled for an assault on a carabineer, but that the sentence had not been made known. The matter was brought to the notice of His Majesty's Ambassador, but he has not yet been able to obtain sufficient particulars about the case to enable him to take action in favour of Fitzgerald. There shall be no delay that can be avoided in dealing with the matter.—(Foreign Office.)

  Excavations at Tara.
  MR. BRYCE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been drawn to the digging up and obliteration on the Hill of Tara, in Ireland, of the ancient mounds and ridges which mark the sites of the various erections which existed on that spot in remote ages before the introduction of Christianity into Ireland, and whether he will take such steps as may be in his power to prevent the destruction of these historical monument, which are among the most remarkable and interesting in the British Isles.
  (Answer.) My attention has been directed to the excavations carried out at Tara. These ancient mounds are amongst the works included in the Schedule to the Ancient Monuments Protection Act of 1882. When similar excavations at Tara were brought under the notice of Government in 1899, there appeared to be an impression that the fact that the mounds were so scheduled vested the guardianship

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  in the Commissioners of Public Works and empowered the Commissioners to interfere with the action of the owner. This is riot so, however; and to create the power there should be a formal deed, executed by the owner, vesting the earthworks in the Commissioners. No such deed has been executed. A Dublin newspaper of this morning states that the owner has entered into an arrangement, under which the excavations will be conducted by the Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland. This, of course, will afford a guarantee for the preservation of a national monument of unique interest. It is of the highest importance that the surface of the ground should be in no way disturbed, since its features confirm in every particular the ancient accounts of the Regal buildings which once stood at Tara.—(Irish Office.)

  NAAS GUARDIANS AND THE IRISH REGISTRAR GENERAL OF BIRTHS, etc.
  MR. LEAMY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the refusal of the Registrar General for Ireland of Births to permit the occasional use by officials of the Naas Union, for the purpose of transacting official business, of a room at the workhouse in which the filled registers are deposited, and which the superintendent registrar is entitled to use for the discharge of the duties of his office; whether, having regard to the fact that the use of this room by these officials entails no inconvenience on the superintendent registrar, and that the room will be instantly vacated whenever he requires it, the Chief Secretary will represent to the Registrar General the advisability of allowing the officials to continue to use the room, which has been built out of the rates, seeing that, if they are deprived of its use, it will be necessary to build at the public expense an office for their accommodation.
  (Answer.) This room was provided by the Guardians as an office for the transaction of the business of the Superintendent Registrar of Births Deaths, and Marriages, and for the preservation of the records of the Registrar, who is responsible for their care and custody. There arc obvious
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  objections to the use of this room, at any time, by officials who are in no way responsible for the custody of the records, and the Registrar General, with every desire to meet the wishes of the guardians, regrets he cannot consent to the appropriation of the room for purposes other than those for which it was provided by statute—(Irish Office.)

(2.15.) QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  British South Africa Company.
  MR. JOHN ELLIS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, at any time since 31st December, 1900, the Colonial Office, or any responsible official thereof, has been approached by the British South Africa Company, or any director thereof, officially or informally, with proposals for or suggestions of a transfer of the undertaking to the British Government; and, in that case, what was the nature of such proposals or suggestions, and what reply was given thereto.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. J. chamberlain,): No such proposal has been made to me or to any official in my Department.

  Loyalist Losses in the War.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if it is proposed to constitute a Court or Commission of Claims for the adjudication of the claims for indemnity in respect of losses sustained by the operations of war by loyal British subjects in and connected with South Africa, similar to that held in the case of foreigners in the Transvaal and Orange colonies.
  THE SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Mr. BRODKICK,): All claims for losses go before the same Boards in South Africa, whether they emanate from British or foreign subjects. The Court which sat in 1901 in London dealt with the cases of foreigners deported from South Africa who were unable to appear before the Boards sitting in that country.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: Is any Board sitting at, the present time in South Africa?
  MR. BRODRICK: Arrangements arc being made to deal with the cases as rapidly as possible.

  Retention in Army Service of Yeomanry, etc., serving in South Africa.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT:beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he will consider the advisability of endeavouring to retain in the Army officers, non-commissioned officers, and men of the Imperial Yeomanry, Volunteer, and irregular forces in South Africa who have proved in the field their qualifications for military service, and of bringing to their knowledge the advantages of Army service under the improved conditions.
  MR. BRODRICK: As regards the officers, it does not appear probable that sufficient vacancies will arise for the grant of many direct commissions. Yeomanry officers are granted the same privileges as regards service marks in their examinations as officers of the Militia. As regards the men, all facilities will be given them, provided they are qualified to enlist, and their service in other forces in South Africa will be allowed to reckon as Army service.

  Army Recruiting.
  MAJOR RASCII:beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the special recruit class has been abolished for the Regular Forces; and, if so, whether any minimum standard of height and chest measurement remains.
  MR. BRODRICK: No recruit has, since 1st April, been accepted unless he fulfilled certain conditions of chest measurement and chest expansion. As regards height, there is a minimum and a maximum standard, which vary according to the arm of the service, but the Adjutant-General has power to approve desirable recruits who do not fulfil the conditions of height. The percentage of Specials last year, which was about thirty-three, has dropped to about twelve since the 1st April.
  MAJOR RASCH: What is the minimum height and chest measurement?
  MR. BRODRICK: I cannot say off hand.

  Royal Military College, Sandhurst.
  Colonel BROOKFIELD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the result of the inquiry recently held as to disturbances at the Royal Military College, Sandhurst, will be made public; whether, since that inquiry took place, another incendiary fire has taken place in the College; and what further measures are being taken by the authorities to punish the guilty and to relieve innocent persons of being suspected of crime.
  MR. BRODRICK: It is not proposed to make public the inquiry held as to the recent disturbance at the Royal Military College. Another fire has taken place, and steps are being taken to deal with those concerned.

  Cromarty Defences.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the question of fortifying the two headlands, known as the Sutors, at the entrance to Cromarty Firth, has yet been considered by the Defence Committee; and, if not, will steps be taken to procure a Report on the subject.
  MR. BRODRICK: No such proposal has been considered by a Defence Committee, nor does there appear to be any necessity for referring it to a Defence Committee.

  The Coronation Reviews.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I beg to ask the, Secretary of State for War whether any provision will be made to enable Members to see the two reviews.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: Perhaps this will be a convenient opportunity for me to ask a Question of which I have given private notice, viz., if, to afford the people an opportunity of seeing and welcoming the Colonial and Indian troops, they cannot be invited (after the Review on the limited space of the Horse Guards'

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  Parade, by His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales) to march round Hyde Park, or some other route comparatively clear of business traffic, and under carriage regulations, enabling people on foot to see something.
  MR. BRODRICK: The route as at present adopted is by Grosvenor Gardens, Grosvenor Place, Constitution Hill, and the Mall. It is hoped that ample opportunity will thus bo given to those who desire to see the troops.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Both days?
  MR. BRODRICK: Yes; the whole of the arrangements have been made in the course of a few hours, and it will be quite impossible to bring troops up to London to line the enormous extent of route which my hon. and gallant friend proposes. The police would not undertake to control so long a route without an adequate supply of soldiers to keep the road. With regard to this House, so far as I am aware, the distribution of tickets has been placed in the hands of the Colonial Office, in order to satisfy as many Colonial visitors as possible. The accommodation is limited, and that which would be required by Members of this House, if a large number desired to go, would make it prohibitive to assign special places to all.
  MR. WILLIAM JOHNSTON: Will any arrangements be made to enable Members to see this desirable and interesting function?
  MR. BRODRICK: I am informed that 200 tickets will be placed at the disposal of Mr. Speaker's Secretary.

  Egyptian International Tribunals.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, in view of the fact that Egypt is under British control, will he state why the English language is not used in the international tribunals.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Lord CRANBORNE,): The international tribunals were constituted by an Agreement to which
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  fourteen Powers were parties, and no change can be made in the arrangements under that Agreement without the consent of all the signatory Powers, some of which would have to obtain the assent of their legislatures. In practice, however, it is understood that little inconvenience is caused by the fact that English is not one of the languages officially sanctioned, arid that translations of English documents are rarely required.
  MR. WEIR: When was the agreement published?
  LORD CRANBORNE:I am afraid I cannot answer that off-hand.

  Macao.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affaire whether he has any official information that a telegram has been received from Hong Kong to the effect that a French flagship and two French gunboats arrived at Macao on the 25th ultimo, and will he now state the result of his inquiry in regard to the report that the French Government have recently acquired territory near Macao.
  LORD CRANBORNE: We have notheard of the arrival of any French men of-war at Macao. According to our information, a piece of ground near Macao has been purchased by French missionaries for the erection of a hospital.

  Governor Generalship of Australia.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can state when the successor to Lord Hopetoun as Governor General of Australia will be appointed.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Will care be taken to ensure that the new Governor General is granted an allowance adequate to enable him to fulfil the duties of the office?
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! That does not arise out of the Question on the Paper.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I will put it down for tomorrow.

  Gibraltar Dock Workers' Strike.
  Colonel DENNY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the, Colonies whether he J8 aware that the strike of dock workers at Gibraltar is extending to other trades, and that acts of violence have already been committed; and whether he will telegraph to the Governor instructing him to adopt stringent measures to maintain order, and to issue a proclamation warning the strikers and others against using intimidation or violence.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I am aware of the facts stated in the Question, but the Governor, Sir George White, is fully alive to the importance of maintaining order, and I believe the steps he is taking will be found adequate.

  London Water Bill.
  MR. LOUGH: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he can state when the Report of the Joint Committee on the London Water Bill will be distributed to Members; and whether a reasonable interval will be allowed between the distribution of the Report and the consideration of the Bill in Committee of the House.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. walter long,): The Report of the Joint Committee is issued, and copies can now be obtained at the Vote Office. It will, of course, be circulated in the usual way. The Bill will not be taken before Wednesday, andthink this will allow a sufficient time for the consideration of the Report.
  Subsequently,
  MR. LOUGH: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether there is a serious intention to take the London Water Bill on Wednesday, or whether a considerable interval should not be allowed for studying the Report, which has not been distributed.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,):am not aware of any suggestion to take the Bill on Wednesday.

  Elementary School Building Rules.
  SIR FRANCIS POWELL: I beg to ask the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education, what building Rules are now in force in the case of elementary schools, as the seventh section of the Code (1901) has been omitted from the new Code; and what the Government intend to adopt as regards building Rules for such schools in future years.
  THE VICE-PRESIDENT of the BOARD of EDUCATION (SIR JOHN GORST,): The existing building Rules, contained in the seventh section of the Code, 1901, remain in force till superseded by new ones. New Rules will be issued shortly.

  Regulations for Secondary Day Schools.
  SIR FRANCIS POWELL: I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education when the particulars and syllabuses referred to in the Regulations for Secondary Day Schools, 1902, will be printed and circulated; and whether evening schools will be dealt with in the same supplementary regulations.
  SIR JOHN GORST: The supplementary regulations, which are both for secondary day schools and evening schools, are now in the hands of the printers. They will be circulated in about ten days.

  Dungannon Land Appeals.
  MR. DOOGAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is now in a position to say when the Land Commissioners will sit at Dungannon to hear appeals which have been accruing for nearly four years in the county court district of that town.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM,): No date has yet been fixed for the next sitting of the Commissioners. It is probable, however, that one will be held before the end of the year.
  MR. DOOGAN: Will it be held at Dungannon?
  MR. WYNDHAM: I infer so.

  East Tyrone Police.
  MR. DOOGAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state how many extra police are quartered in East Tyrone; where they are stationed; the reason for keeping them there; and the respective number in each locality.
  MR. WYNDHAM: There is no extra force of police stationed in the County Tyrone.

  Imprisonment for Contempt in Sligo Gaol.
  MR. O'DOWD: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that John Lavin of Ballinaford, near Boyle, aged seventy-three, at present confined in Sligo gaol, was arrested in bed whilst suffering from influenza contracted through exposure after eviction; and whether, in view of the fact that this man has been fifteen months in prison, Steps will be taken to have him released.
  MR. WYNDHAM: This man was committed to prison for contempt of court on a writ of attachment issued by the Vice-Chancellor. The power of committal in such cases is not subject to supervision by the Executive and is not controlled by the exercise of the prerogative of pardon. The steps necessary to be taken with a view to the discharge of the prisoner were indicated in a communication whichaddressed to the hon. Member in February last.

  Irish Public Service.
  MR. WOOD: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the number of privy councillors, land commissioners, land sub-commissioners, county court valuers, judges of the superior courts, county court judges, resident magistrates, county inspectors of police, and district inspectors holding office in Ireland; and how many of each class are Presbyterians.
  MR. WYNDHAM: There are sixty seven resident magistrates, of whom five are Presbyterians; thirty-three county inspectors, none of whom are Presbyterians; and 214 district inspectors, of whom eight profess that religion. I have already more than once stated that I have
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  no official knowledge of the religious denominations applicable to persons occupying the other positions mentioned.

  Land Commissioner Garvey.
  MR. MACVEAGH:beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state how many days in the week are at present given by Land Commissioner Garvey to the work for which he was appointed, in what district he is at present employed, and what his previous occupation was.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Mr. Garvey, like all other assistant Land Commissioners, gives his entire time to the service of the Irish Land Commission. He is at present employed in the district of Cookstown. His qualifications will be found described in a Paper recently laid on the Table. [No. 151 of the present Session.]
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: Is not this man the son of a well-known land agent in Ireland?
  MR. MACVEAGH: How many days in the week does he give to his work?
  MR. WYNDHAM: His entire time.
  MR. MACVEAGH: He resides at a seaside resort, to which he goes every Friday, remaining until Tuesday.
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order!

  Roman Catholic Bishops and the Land Bill—Maynooth Resolution.
  MR. FLYNN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the resolution passed by the Roman Catholic Bishops of Ireland, at Maynooth, on the 25th inst; on the subject of the Land Bill, declaring that the grazing lands of the country should be made available on fair terms for the agricultural population that is now forced to emigrate. And, whether, in view of this pronouncement, the Government will introduce such provisions in the Land Bill as may tend to carry out these views.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Yes, Sir. I have seen a Report of the Resolution. In reply to the second paragraph, I would direct

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  the hon. Member's attention to Clause 3, Clause 4 (1) (b) and (c) ii, iii, Clause 6 (1), Clause 11 (1), and specially to the first-mentioned Clause. They set up £1,000,000 as a rolling fund, outside the congested districts for most of the purposes advocated by this important assembly. I doubt whether it would be advisable for the State to undertake similar work for those in comparatively easy circumstances until further progress has been made in the problem of remedying the defects of uneconomic holdings.

  Irish Police as Shorthand Writers.
  MR. FLYNN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the proceedings at French Park on the 25th inst., when the hon. Member for North Longford was tried before two resident magistrates on a charge of inciting to conspiracy; is he aware that the magistrates, in dismissing the prosecution, commented on the inaccuracies of the shorthand notes of Constable McDonagh; and, will he state how many persons have been convicted on evidence furnished by police note-takers since the reintroduction of the Criminal Law and Procedure Act into Ireland.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I believe that on cross-examination some inaccuracies were detected in the shorthand writer's notes. In all the other cases where police note-takers were examined, they were either cross-examined or were presented for cross-examination. In these cases no inaccuracies were, I believe, detected in the notes, and in few if any cases was evidence given to contradict them. I am unable to state in which cases the evidence of the shorthand writers was the only incriminatory evidence given.
  MR. FLYNN: Are any precautions taken to ensure the competence of the men employed on duties of this kind?
  MR. WYNDHAM: Yes, Sir.

  Limerick Police and the Mechanics' Institute.
  MR. JOYCE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that flags draped in mourning, and suspended
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  from the Mechanics' Institute, Limerick, as a mark of respect for the memory of a deceased member of the Institute, were, on Wednesday, 25th June, seized by the police and carried off to their barracks at William Street; can he state upon whose authority the police acted, and for what reasons were these flags taken from the windows of the Institute; will he state whether they were returned, and, if so, for what reasons and whether, having regard to the condition of the city of Limerick, he will take steps to prevent a repetition of such action.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The two black flags were removed by the police early on the morning of Thursday the 26th June under a misapprehension, which is much regretted, of the object with which they had been displayed. The police at once returned the flags when informed they were emblems of mourning.
  MR. JOYCE: Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to prevent a repetition of such conduct on the part of the police?
  MR. WYNDHAM: I do not think any are necessary. Their action in this case is deeply regretted.
  MR. JOYCE: The flags were draped and not black.

  Abbeyfeale Prosecutions.
  MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the supervisor, Inland Revenue, Tralee, and his assistant took rent receipts from David Sheehan and Denis Murphy, both tenants of William Cahill, the Crown witness in the recent prosecutions under the Criminal Law Procedure (Ireland) Act at Abbeyfeale; and, seeing that these receipts were taken up with a view to prosecuting Mr. Cahill for defrauding the Revenue by using cancelled postage stamps on these receipts, can he explain why such prosecution was not proceeded with, and why Sheehan and Murphy's son were the only two persons on Cahill's estate who were subsequently prosecuted for alleged illegal assembly and intimidation of Mr. Cahill at Mount Collins.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The Board of Inland Revenue stayed the proceedings instituted by it against Cahill upon payment by him of a penalty of £5. That Board had no knowledge of the prosecution directed against Sheehan and Murphy under the Crimes Act; consequently, the Board's action was in no way influenced by the latter proceedings. Sheehan and Murphy were the only two tenants who took part in the unlawful assembly; hence no other tenants from that estate were or could be prosecuted for the offence.

  Limerick Post Office.
  MR. JOYCE: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, if he can say when the result of the inquiry now being held at Limerick Post Office will be made known; and whether the postmistress at Rutland Street branch office, Limerick, has yet got a residence in the locality.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Austen chamberlain,): The Postmaster General expects to receive the Report in the course of a few days. The sub-postmistress of the Rutland Street Office, Limerick, has secured suitable premises and will probably be installed today.

  Education Bill.
  MR. TREVELYAN: Mayask whether, for the convenience of Members following the Education Bill, the First Lord of the Treasury will have it printed each day as amended in Committee.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: No doubt it is convenient, and in accordance with practice, that from time to time the Bill should be reprinted as amended in Committee. But to do so each day would, I think, be rather going beyond the practice. I will take care, however, to see that the Bill is reprinted at convenient intervals.
  MR. CORRIE GRANT: What is wanted is that the first and second Clauses should be reprinted as far as amended at the head of the Amendment Paper.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: That would be easy, and it might be convenient; but, as we slowly make progress with the measure, a good deal would have to be reprinted, andwould rather not lay that down as a principle.
  MR. JAMES LOWTHER: Is it understood that both sittings tomorrow and on Wednesday are to be devoted to the Education Bill?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: That is my intention at present; but if it is necessary to make a change, I hope the House will permit me, with, of course, full notice, to adopt the evening sitting for some other purpose.

  Motor Car Regulations.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, with a view to providing for the identification of motor cars contravening the law, or causing damage or accidents, he will give facilities for the Bill introduced by the hon. Member for the New Forest Division of Hampshire.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Though the subject of the Bill is one of considerable interest, it is quite impossible at present, and at this stage of the session, that I should find Government time for it.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I have to ask as to the business for this week, and what Estimates will be taken on Thursday.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELL: Mayask whether Irish Supply will be taken, or whether ft will lie held over until the autumn session.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: With regard to the Question last put to me, I have been making such inquiries as are within my power, and I find that next Thursday will be an inconvenient day for the majority of Irish Members to attend. The Irish Estimates will, therefore, be deferred. It will be convenient to take the Foreign Office Vote at the morning sitting, and the Board of Trade Vote at the nine o'clock sitting. The rest of the week will be given to the Education Bill. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman opposite will allow me to leave Friday a little undecided at present.

  BRITISH MUSKUM BILL [LORDS].
  Read the first time; to ho read a second time upon Wednesday, and to be printed. [Bill 257.]

  EDUCATTON (ENGLAND AND WALKS) BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee)
  MR. J. W. LOWTHERin the Chair.
  Clause 2—
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: Will it lie in order to move the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for the Stretford Division of Lancashire in his absence?
  THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
  MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid he would do so. The Amendment proposed that the local education authority might supply or aid education, other than elementary, with the funds placed at their disposal—
  "Provided that no amount shall he charged on the rate, unless a sum has been contributed by the Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury,"
  and that the amount raised out of the rates should not exceed a rate of 2d, in the pound. What he wanted to secure was that there should be some arrangement by which secondary education obtained definite assistance from the Imperial Exchequer at the same time that that was aided from the rates. When last the point was under discussion he ventured to propose that Imperial aid should come after the 2d. rate had been levied by the local authorities. When they had expended their own funds to that extent, then it might be regarded that they had discharged their duty to the children of the locality, and they might fairly call upon the Imperial Exchequer to give some assistance towards education other than elementary. The Amendment, as the Committee would see, loft the question open; it did not suggest what sum was to be contributed by the Treasury, but it laid it down clearly that there should be sumo Imperial contribution. That was probably the most convenient way of raising the question, and he was told it was the only possible way of doing so.
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  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 1, line 23, after the word 'that,' to insert the words 'no amount shall be charged on the rates unless a sum has been contributed by the Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury, and that.'"—(Mr. Carrie Grant.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  THE VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE COMMITTEE OF COUNCIL on EDUCATION (Sir JOHN GORST,)said that the Amendment was a very ingenious one. It was intended to pledge the Government to give an aid grant in respect of secondary education. That was contrary to the manner in which the assistance given by the Imperial Exchequer to education was usually dispensed. In the case of elementary schools no grant was given in aid of rates except under the Act of 1897 for the relief of poor School Board districts. If that Act was repealed no grant would be given from the Imperial Exchequer in aid of elementary education; and no grant had been given in respect of secondary education. He was aware that the case of Wales was different, but it should be remembered that very large assistance was given to secondary education on the same principle and in the same manner as assistance was given to elementary and technical education—namely, by grants to schools out of the Exchequer in proportion to the scholars they teach and the subjects taught. Complaint was made in some quarters that the grants already made for education were too large. Speaking op behalf of the Board of Education he must say that the aid granted already for secondary education did not err on the side of illiberality; they were very liberal, but then a good deal of useful education was promoted. Still, if anything, the administration of the fund was too lax rather than too severe. On the grounds that the Amendment established an entirely new principle in the case of England, and that the aid already-given to secondary education was sufficient, the Government asked the Committee to reject the Amendment.
  MR. BRYNMOR JONESsaid he did not like the exact form of the Amendment, because it simply provided that some

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  sum might be contributed by the Imperial Exchequer for the purposes of elementary education. If the words were left thus, it was obvious that the grant of a small and insignificant amount—say of £100—might be said to satisfy the conditions laid down by the Amendment. Again there was no limit as to the amount which the Treasury might insist on being expended out of local funds before making a grant from Imperial sources. He thought it would be better, therefore, to amend the Amendment by leaving out the word "a" after "unless," and substituting for it the words "an equal." It would then read "no amount shall be charged on the rates unless an equal sum has been contributed, etc." He thought that would be a fair solution of the question. The right hon. Gentleman had referred to the Welsh precedent as something entirely exceptional. So it at present, but inasmuch as the Welsh precedent had been entirely successful, and had resulted in the creation of a system of secondary or intermediate education equal to that which existed in any other part of the United Kingdom, and equal also to that which existed in France and Germany, surely it ought not to be urged as an argument against the Amendment. He did not wish to lengthen the debate by going into the general question. They all appeared to be agreed that the object should be to create a system of higher education in England such as that which existed in Wales, and to a certain extent in Scotland. That would not be attained unless the principle of his Amendment was accepted, or unless they were going to sweep all existing endowments for secondary education purposes into the net of the Education Department.
  Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment,
  "To leave out the word 'a,' and insert the words 'an equal.'"—(Mr. Brynmor Jones.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."
  SIR EDWARD STEACHEYsaid he had intended to move a somewhat similar Amendment. But he
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  rose mainly to protest against the statement of the Vice President of the Council with regard to Welsh Technical Education.
  THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order! The debate must be confined to the Amendment.
  MR. COEIUE GRANT: With the permission of the House, I will accept the Amendment.
  SIR JOHN GORSTsaid that before it was accepted he would like to point out that the principle of equal grant was going a great deal further than the Welsh Act. It would not only embrace the intermediate schools and similar institutions but also, the evening schools, which were, already largely subsidised by the Exchequer, to almost three-quarters of the then cost.
  MR. LLOYD GEORGE: Then that is more than equivalent.
  SIR JOHN GORSTadded that it would also apply to higher grade schools and training colleges, and would involve an enormous drain on the Treasury. The effect of it would be to cripple the new authority, for they could not levy any rate for the purposes of secondary education until they were met by an equivalent sum which might or might not be provided by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in years to come. It was suggested that local authorities would not be anxious to levy new rates, but what greater encouragement could there be for them to abstain from doing so than the excuse that no Treasury contribution was forthcoming.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he was sorry the right hon. Gentleman had not allowed them to amend the Amendment as proposed, because then they could have discussed the complete Amendment. Would he agree, for the mere purposes of debate, to the insertion of the words.
  SIR JOHN GORST:do not object to that at all.
  Question put, and agreed to.

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  Question proposed, "That those words, as amended, be there inserted."
  SIR EDWARD STRAHEYsaid he desired to protest against the suggestion involved in the Vice President's statement that the unfortunate agricultural ratepayer in England should be deprived of assistance which was given to his fellow ratepayer in Wales. He never heard a more extraordinary assertion made by any Minister of the Crown than that the Government were willing to place the unfortunate agricultural ratepayer at a disadvantage in regard to technical education as compared with his fellow ratepayer in Wales. It was suggested that it would be a serious matter to call upon the Exchequer to give the English ratepayer a grant equivalent to that received by the Welsh, but was it not also a serious matter for the ratepayers themselves. He believed that if the point were conceded, it would be an inducement to local authorities to rate themselves for secondary education, for they would appreciate the fact that for every penny of their own money they spent they would get an equal sum from the Exchequer.
  MR. BAETLEYsad the Amendment raised a serious question—namely, the competition of the private adventure schools. By the scheme of the Amendment, schools would be started, many of which would be in competition with existing efficient secondary schools. That meant that sooner or later those schools would be done away with, and it also meant an enormously increased expense, which was not wanted in anyway, for secondary education. There would be every inducement for local authorities to rate themselves in order to get the Imperial Grant, and the ultimate result would be that a great number of highly efficient, well-conducted secondary schools now carried on by private enterprise, would practically be killed, and the whole cost of education would be thrown on the public purse. To that he strongly objected.
  SIR WILLIAM MATHERsaid he did not think the right lion. Gentleman had been well advised, in the interests of
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  education, in resisting this Amendment. There were many places in England where schools would be required for secondary education, which would exhaust the whole of the 2d. rate permitted by the Bill as it now stood, and those places might have many other educational projects for which they might desire to rate themselves. Naturally they would enter into those projects with greater heartiness if they were assured of a contribution from the Treasury. The right hon. Gentleman should remember that in England at the present time secondary education had actually been starved, and if he threw upon the ratepayers the levying of the rate allowed by this Bill up to the hilt, they would give pause before they embarked upon such a project. This Amendment would encourage them, for if the Government would contribute a sum equal to a rate levied locally they would then be found willing to throw into the development of education an amount of zeal which would have a great effect upon the country.
  MR. MIDPLEMOREsaid he felt that this was an important Amendment, and he was bound to say that he warmly supported it. The broad principle of the Amendment was embodied in the recommendations of the Royal Commission. He quite understood that the First Lord of the Treasury, on the Second Reading of the Bill, agreed to the principle, but said that the occasion had not arisen, because the whole question of local taxation had to be reviewed. The end of the South African war was the proper time to do this. Our industries, and the manhood and womanhood of this country, were suffering from this lack of education, and this country was becoming more or less a by-word, not only among the great nations of the world, but also in our Colonies. As a rule we dealt with matters when they became urgent. In a matter of this kind England could not afford to continue living on her reputation. Our industries had been supported by cheap labour, and by taking women into industries they had been robbing the nursery of the services of these women. Efficiency could not be established without ', secondary education, and therefore he

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  felt that this was a question of national importance, and worthy of national recognition by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Surely the Chancellor of the Exchequer could spare a sum equal to one week's cost of the war in South Africa, which would be an excellent investment, for there would be no scandals connected with it.
  MAJOR RASCH, as the representative of a rural district, said that what agricultural Members wanted to do to-day was to save the Government from themselves. The Government posed as friends of the agricultural interest because the Chancellor of the Exchequer had reduced the duty on offals. He wished to know what was the use of putting half-a-crown in a man's pocket with one hand and taking five shillings out with the other. Upon this question the drum ecclesiastic had already been beaten somewhat vigorously in the division he represented, and if t-he Bill fell through ho anticipated that ho should have a bad half-hour with his clerical friends. They wished the Government to treat them with fairness and justice, and not put upon them heavier burdens.
  MR. TREVELYANsaid that this concession financially did not amount to much. This proposal would give to secondary education a really large increase of money for the national exchequer. The changes hitherto made by this Clause had practically resulted in no serious increase to the resources of the local authorities. At first sight it looked as if the proposal would result in a limitation of the rate, but they were compelled to look at it from a different point of view and consider that almost any Government would be forced to accept the local standard of the necessity for secondary education. Therefore this was a compulsory equivalent grant, and it would so work out in a very short time. This was one of the biggest questions they could discuss, and ho could not help feeling that, to some extent, the House had lost sight of the bigness of the question which it was discussing at take present time. He represented a great northern industrial district. Some time ago the Duke of Devonshire was speaking about this Bill in the autumn, and he said
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  that what he wanted was to got the popular wind into the sails of the Government in order to drive the education ship forward. The Government had not tried to get the education wind into their sails. The real feeling was not on the question of elementary education, but the crying need all over the great commercial districts was for secondary and commercial education. If the Government would really appeal, not to the ultra-economists, as they were now appealing, but to that part of the population which felt intensely the necessity for secondary and commercial education, he was sure they would get that wind into their sails which the Duke of Devonshire had asked for. He thought some of them were justified in going back to the fundamental reasons as to why we wanted more money spent upon secondary education, and as to why this Bill was brought in at all. It had been brought in because of the danger which was threatening the industrial supremacy of this country. It did not matter what part of education was looked at, the extent of the backwardness of this country could be shown in various directions. He would like to read some statistics just to remind the Committee of the position we were in as compared with other countries.
  THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member will be rather trespassing on the indulgence of the Committee if he enters upon that comparison. This Amendment raises a very limited subject, and the hon. Member cannot raise the whole question of secondary education upon it.
  MR. TREVELYANsaid it seemed to him that the Committee had rather lost sight of the larger side of the question. They were not satisfied with simply getting an extra £10,000 or £20,000 out of the Government by the compulsory application of the whisky money to secondary education, for they were looking forward to something enormously bigger than that. He thought he was right in saying that in nearly all the States of America, or at any rate in thirty of them, they had got their resources for all kinds of education provided, and about one sixteenth of the revenue of the land of the different States was set apart for

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  educational purposes. They know the extent to which Germany was ready to give, from, national and also local resources, to secondary as well as primary education. What he wished to enforce was that they wanted a big way of dealing with this question, and the only big way of dealing with it was to give to localities practically unlimited powers of enterprise, and to back up that enterprise by encouraging them from national resources.
  MR. CHAPLINsaid he agreed with the Chairman that the question they were discussing was an extremely limited one, but still it involved the very important principle whether an object which was admittedly a national object ought to be paid for entirely out of the rates or whether the State should contribute a portion of the expenditure. Ho was greatly surprised at the opposition of the Government to this demand. It appeared to him reasonable and proper in itself, and he had not yet heard from the Government a reason for the distinction they drew between secondary schools on the one hand, and elementary schools on the other. Why was that distinction made in the Bill? Secondary education was admittedly for a national object, and therefore primâ facie it ought to be met, partially at all events, out of national funds. He had never yet heard the reason why the Government with held in the case of secondary schools the concession which they had made in the case of elementary schools, viz:—assistance from national funds. Under the Bill secondary schools were to be paid for entirely out of the rates. It might have been said that originally Clause 2 was entirely voluntary with regard to the provision of secondary education, but that could not be maintained any longer. He defied anybody to argue, and still loss to prove, that the provisions for secondary education in the Bill at the present moment were not practically compulsory, but whether any hon. Member might differ from him on that point or not, it was absolutely certain that the whisky money under that Clause could not be used for anything else. He wished to hear what was the ground upon which the Government
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  refused to accept the extremely reasonable Amendment now before the Committee, and what were the grounds on which they made, what appeared to him, the most arbitrary distinction between the two kinds of education. He had not the least desire to sec the Bill wrecked. There was nothing ho should regret more than that. If his right hon. friend would listen to the appeals made from both sides of the House, and provide in this Bill, in the case of secondary education, as, it had done already in the case of elementary education, a fair contribution from national funds, he believed as far as this House was concerned at all events, all, or the greater part, of the difficulties would disappear. His right hon. friend would enormously facilitate the passing of the Bill if ho would make the just concession now asked.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: This has been a very interesting debate, and a good many noteworthy points have been developed in the course of it. My right hon. friend who has just sat down, and my hon. and gallant friend the Member for the Chelmsford Division implored the Government to accept the Amendment be—cause it would relieve the local ratepayer. The hon. Member for the Elland Division implored the Government to accept the Amendment because it would greatly increase the amount spent on secondary education. Well, both of these arguments cannot be true would venture to point out to the House that we really arc not arguing the Amendment on the Paper at all, but some ideal Amendment which hon. Members would like to see substituted for it. The hon. Member for the Elland Division, and my right hon. friend the Member f or the Sleaford Division, regard the Amendment as a means of exacting money from the Treasury, and if it is so, the Amendment would be out of order, as it would be little bettor than a device to evade one of the best known and best understood of the Standing Orders of the House, and in the upholding of that Order should say that all economists would be glad to support the Government, It has been argued that this Amendment makes it mandatory on the Treasury to spend money on secondary education, and a comparison is drawn between this Amendment and a provision in the Welsh Education Act. They are entirely

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  different, and not only different, but entirely opposed. The provision of the Welsh Education Act says to the locality: "You spend money up to a halfpenny, and the Government will also spend money up to a halfpenny." That is no doubt a very good way of promoting local expenditure on education—local enterprise for the promotion of secondary schools. But what is this Amendment? It says that the localities shall not spend anything out of the rates until the Government have contributed something. This is actually brought before the House by a gentleman who speaks in the name of education as if it were a great educational Amendment. It does everything that an Amendment ought not to do. It puts it absolutely in the power of the Government of the day to stop everything being done by any locality in education, and it centralises the whole system of education. If you put the whole responsibility, on the central Government of starting their contributions, they, of course, will take care that education is controlled in all respects, according to their views and wishes. That is precisely a situation I do not wish to see adopted; and as an educationist, I say, with all the conviction of which I am master, that nothing can be worse, in the present indeterminate condition of the problem of secondary education, than to throw the whole determination of that problem into the hands of the central authority. I do earnestly trust that the House will not accept the Amendment, which, if accepted in this form, would be ruinous to education. May I remind the House that when I am pressed to ask my right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer for a still further contribution in regard to this Bill, he has already made very large and liberal contributions to these various authorities for educational purposes, andlet me add simply, in conclusion, that to say that nothing is given from central State sources to secondary education is a complete and thorough illusion. The whole of the whisky money is a contribution from central sources, and in addition there are science and art grants to secondary schools at the present moment to the amount, I think, of half-a-million of money a year.
  SIR JOSEPH LEESEsaid he looked upon this Amendment with a certain amount of suspicion. It paid that—
  "No amount shall be charged on the rates unless a sum has been contributed by the Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury."
  That he understood to mean that the counties and county boroughs would be deprived of their rating powers if the Government decided to give them a grant. Under these circumstances he hoped his hon. friend would withdraw the Amendment.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid this was rather an awkward Amendment. Undoubtedly the effect of it, if carried, would be exactly what they wanted it to be. It would force the Government to face the question of the equivalent grant. The First Lord of the Treasury could cure the situation now if he would do what he had been asked to do, and that was, take a money resolution with respect to which hon. Members could move readjustments without transgressing the rules of order. Non - official Members wanted to raise the question of the equivalent grant, and the only way they could do it was by forcing the Government to face it. It was really not such a serious matter as the Vice-President of the Council seemed to assume. The right hon. Gentleman said they must remember that all the schools affected by the Cockcrton judgment had been thrown on the rates under this Clause, and then he proceeded to answer his own argument by saying that three - fourths of that expenditure fell now on the Treasury. As a matter of fact it was more than three-fourths, and so far from the present proposal imposing an additional burden on the Imperial Exchequer it would give it relief. The Cockerton judgment was all in favour of the equivalent grant, and not against it. The question was, were they really going to get a good system of secondary education built up in this country unless the Treasury was prepared to do its duty by those schools? The question of rating was at the root of the whole matter. The rates in towns were running up to 7s., 8s. and 10s. per £1. They could not expect a place that was rated 7s. in the £1 to raise a rate for

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  secondary education. The only way to induce them to do it was by getting this contribution from the Treasury. When a church or a chapel wanted to raise money, invariably one man came forward and said he would give £5000, or whatever the sum might be, if the rest of the members would raise an equal sum. It was the theological precedent they wanted; the Treasury ought to say "if you give a penny, we will give a penny," and then education would prosper. They ought to appeal to all the weaknesses of human nature, and enlist them in favour of education. The secondary schools which would be organised under this Clause would appeal to a totally different class from that to which they ought to appeal. It was the class now educated in the venture schools. What was wanted was a system of schools in which they should get pupils whose parents could not afford to send their children to venture schools. What was happening in Wales? They had eighty secondary schools, which was proportionally better, according to population, than in Germany. Take Baden, which had about the same population as Wales There were only sixty-eight secondary schools. This was largely done with the equivalent grant and the whisky money, and in those schools five out of every seven pupils came from the primary schools. There was nothing of that kind in England. If the same success obtained in England in regard to secondary education as in Wales there would be 120,000 pupils in the public schools, nearly 100,000 of whom would have come from the primary schools. How much would that do for a country like this, which was in the throes of a great commercial crisis? He fully admitted that they were taking the only course open to them to force the Government to give an equivalent grant for secondary education. The rating system was at the root of the whole difficulty. If a part of the burden were transferred to the Imperial Exchequer something might be done for secondary education in England. An hon. Member had advocated the principle of a per capita grant, but that was not the system in Wales. What was wanted was a system which would not merely stimulate secondary education in the
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  towns, which could take care of themselves, but which would stimulate it in the rural districts; and if this Bill passed in its present form that would not be secured. The farmers in England were struggling very hard to make both ends meet, and they would not put 2d. or 3d. on to the rates to educate—not their sons, but the sons of artisans and their labourers. If we only stimulated secondary education in the rural districts we should beat Germany, because higher education was very backward in the rural districts of Prussia. Secondary education in the rural districts would do more to solve the problem of agricultural distress than anything else. A per capita grant was not sufficient for the rural districts. The way to help the rural districts was not to make a grant in respect of every child who attended the classes, but to make a grant in proportion to the sacrifice the parents were prepared to make. There were young ladies' schools which went to the County Council and asked for a grant of £40 or £50, but the instruction they gave to their pupils was not secondary education. In Merionethshire there was a greater proportion of children receiving secondary education, according to population, than in Prussia, and, with the exception of one mining district they were all in the rural districts. He besought the Government to transform this Bill, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make an equivalent grant, so as to induce the people of England to build up a fine system of secondary education.
  MR. GEORGE WHITELEYsaid he entirely agreed with the last speaker. This was not so much an educational as a rating question. In his judgment the effect of this Bill in creating the County Councils, and the County Borough Councils, the educational authority would be to starve elementary education; and he was also convinced that if this Clause was carried in its present form it would inevitably starve secondary education. He had been a Member for fifteen years of an educational committee of a County Council, and he was quite convinced that a twopenny rate was quite inadequate, He had

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  heard Members of the County Council ask, time after time, when precepts were presented, whether they had not the power to refuse to pay them. Rates in his district had gone up from 4s. 4d. to 7s. in the £1, and a similar increase had taken place under all local authorities, and how could they expect Borough Councils and County Councils to superimpose an their ordinary burdens, which were already heavy enough, more than 2d. for secondary education? He quite agreed with what had fallen from the Leader of the House, that if this Amendment were carried it would, in some measure, arrest the progress of secondary education. At the same time, would it not be possible for the Government to give a contribution from the Imperial Treasury towards secondary education, which was an absolute necessity in face of what was being done in this direction in other countries?
  MR. BRYCEsaid that it was admitted that this Amendment raised the question under the consideration of the Committee in a somewhat inconvenient form. Of course his hon. friend was bound to take an early opportunity of urging the duty of the National Treasury to make a contribution towards secondary education. A large contribution had already been promised, which was to be devoted exclusively to elementary education. The case of Wales, so ably put by the hon. Member for Carnarvon, emphasised what was true, that if they wished to induce the local authorities to assist secondary education there was no better way of doing it than by giving them a grant from the Imperial Treasury. Although the State already made a considerable contribution towards technical instruction in the form of the liquor money, yet, considering the amount of funds available for elementary schools, the Government could not deny that very strong arguments had been put forward in behalf of a larger contribution from the Central Treasury for secondary education. He doubted, however, whether his hon. friend would gain anything by pressing his Amendment to a division.
  MR. HUMPHREYS-OWENsaid that he would support the Amendment. He thought the Government would expedite the debate if they would accept the course recommended by educationists on both sides of the House. He had been strongly impressed by the argument of the hon. Member for North Islington as to the difficulty about the competition between State and private schools. He, however, believed that the County Councils would recognise the service which had been done by the better class of private secondary schools. For these reasons he hoped the Government would assent to the Amendment.
  MR. CRIPPSsaid the position was that under the Bill as it stood every farthing as regarded the additional expenditure rendered necessary for secondary or technical education must come from the rates, and the same applied also to the branches transferred from the primary to the secondary bodies under the Bill. The proposition in this Clause was one which could not be justified in principle. He would not go back to the fact that it was contrary to the report of the Royal Commission. What he wished to point out was that there was that neutrality to the disadvantage of the ratepayers as matters stood, and this Clause would increase that inequality. Of course he was assuming that this Clause would not be a dead letter. Take as an illustration the case of the undenominational teachers' college. How could that be said to be a local service of which the local ratepayers ought to bear the burden? If they wanted undenominational colleges they must provide the funds from some other source, and they could not expect the rates to bear the whole of the burden. The result of all this would be that they would not get these teachers' colleges at all. His object as regarded this Amendment was not to discourage education, either secondary or technical, but to encourage it. Under the Bill, as it stood, without some provision that the Imperial Exchequer would provide such a national service, this proposition would be a dead letter as regarded this Clause, for they would not have improved technical or enforced secondary education, and they would not

  333
  have these teachers' colleges, He supported this Amendment, not on the ground that he objected to the rates being used at all, but he objected to there not being a proper contribution from the Imperial funds, and to secure that he thought the rates ought to be used to a limited extent. That was the view of the Royal Commission. When they were dealing with a national service, a proper account for the national expenditure should be provided by the National Exchequer, and that was a proper principle to adopt. He would not refer to the Welsh Intermediate Act, but that was a precedent. Everybody admitted that the Welsh system worked admirably and economically, both financially and educationally. By this Amendment they offered an inducement for aiming at a higher level of educational efficiency, for they gave a grant just in proportion to the local effort made. It was a perfectly proper principle to adopt in order to bring about an educational reform, which they all desired, because they could not expect people to pay for a national service out of local funds.
  MR. HERBERT LEWISsaid that this was the greatest question which could be raised in connection with this Clause, because it was a matter of ensuring the organisation of secondary education in England upon a proper basis. If the Committee missed this opportunity of dealing with the question, a grave national mistake would be made. Why did the Welsh Committees one by one adopt the Welsh Intermediate Education Act? Simply because of the stimulus of a Treasury grant. Without this stimulus, in some of the poorer counties of Wales they would not have had a system of intermediate education today. Welsh Members
  had no particular interest in this Amendment, and in supporting it they were really penalising themselves, but the Welsh people would have to pay their share while they would not receive an equivalent grant. Therefore the attitude of Welsh Members on this question was something more than disinterested. Owing to the success of the system in Wales they felt that they did not wish to withhold for a moment longer the advantages of a good system of secondary education for the masses and the middle-classes in England, and they wanted other portions of the country to have the same advantage which Wales enjoyed. He asked the First Lord of the Treasury to give this question his serious consideration and to reflect that unless such an inducement be given to the English counties a great many of them would not adopt a system of secondary education at all. Consequently this Bill, which was intended to be a great Education Act, would fail in one of its most important aims and objects. He believed hon. Gentlemen opposite wished to make this Measure an Education Bill in the real sense of the word, but the Bill would fail in one of its most important objects unless the Government insisted upon having a system of secondary education properly organised in England as in Wales.
  MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid that if he thought the Amendment would effectively carry out what they desired he would divide the Committee upon it, but it was obvious that the Amendment would not effectively do this and with the permission of the Committee he would withdraw it. [Cries of "No, no."]
  (3.58.) Question put.
  The Committee divided. Ayes, 137; Noes, 203. (Division List No.251.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William(Cork, N. E.)

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Allan, William (Gateshead)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Dunn, Sir William

  Austin, Sir John

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Edwards, Frank

  Banes, Major George Edward

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Elibank, Master of

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Emmott, Alfred

  Black, Alexander William

  Crombie, John William

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Boland, John

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

  Delany, William

  Finch, George H.

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Denny, Colonel

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Burt, Thomas

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Foster, Sir Michael(Lond. Univ.

  Caldwell, James

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Cameron, Robert

  Doogan, P. C.

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  M'Crae, George

  Scott, Chas. Prestwich(Leigh)

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc.)

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford)

  Grant, Corrie

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Hardie, J. Keir(MerthyrTydvil

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Harwood, George

  Mappin, Sir Frederick. Thorpe

  Stevenson. Francis S.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Sullivan, Donal

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Middlemore, Jno. Thr gmorton

  Thomas, Abel(Carmarthen, E.)

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Thomas, Alfred(Glamorgan, E.)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Murphy, John

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Thomas, JA (Glamorgan, Gower

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Tomkinson, James

  Howard, Jno.(Kent, Faversham

  O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

  Toulmin, George

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Tully, Jasper

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.

  Ure, Alexander

  Jones, David Brynm's(Swansea

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Jones, William (Carnarv'nshire

  O'Dowd, John

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  O'Kelly, James(Roscommon, N

  Wason, JohnCathcart(Orkney)

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Weir, James Galloway

  Labouchere, Henry

  Palmer, SirCharlesM.(Durham

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Lambert, George

  Paulton, James Mellor

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland)

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

  Leamy, Edmund

  Pease, J. A. (Sadffron Walden)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Pease, Sir Joseph W. (Durham)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Leng, Sir John

  Percy, Earl

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Lloyd-George, David

  Rea, Russell

  Wood, James

  Lough, Thomas

  Reckitt Harold James

  Woodhouse, SirJ. T(Huddersf'd

  Lundon, W.

  Reddy, M.

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Rickett, J. Compton

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Mr. Cripps and Sir

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Russell, T. W.

  Edward Strachey.

  NOES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. SirAlox. F.

  Coghill, Donglas Harry

  Gordon, Hn. J. E.(Elgin & Nairn

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Gore, HnG. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Colourb, SirJohn Charles Ready

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Greene, SirE. W(B'ryS'Edm'nds

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Gunter, Sir Robert

  Balcarres, Lord

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Hain, Edward

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

  Dickson-Poyndor, Sir John P.

  Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'rd

  Balfour, RtHnGeraldW.(Leeds

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.)

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Dorington, Sir John Edward

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Heath, James(Staffords. N. W.

  Beach, RtHn. SirMichacl Hicks

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Helder, Augustus

  Bill, Charles

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Hope, J. F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Bond, Edward

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Houldsworth, Sir Win. Henry

  Boulnois, Edmund

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Hoult, Joseph

  Bowles, Capt. H. F.(Middlesex)

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. SirJ. (Manc'r

  Hozier, Hon. James HenryCecil

  Bowles, T. Gibson (Lynn Regis

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.)

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Firbank, Joseph Thomas

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A(Glasgow

  Fison, Frederick William

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Carew, James Laurence

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Johnston, William (Belfast)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. II.

  Fitzroy, Hon. Ed ward Algernon

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Kennaway, Rt Hon. SirJohnH.

  Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire

  Flower, Ernest

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Foster, PhilipS(Warwick, S. W.

  Kimber, Henry

  Chamberlain, J. Austen(Worc'r

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Chapman, Edward

  Gardner, Ernest

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Coddington, Sir William

  Godson, Sir AugustusFrederick

  Lecky, Rt. Hn. WilliamEdw. H

  336

  337

  Lee, ArthurH(Hants., Fareham

  Penn, John

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard

  Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Stroyan, John

  Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Long Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S)

  Purvis, Robert

  Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Pym, C. Guy

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Randles, John S.

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G(Oxf'dUniv.

  Macartney, RtHn. W. G. Ellison

  Rankin, Sir James

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Thornton, Percy M.

  M'Iver, SirLewi-(Edinburgh W

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Renshaw, Charles Blue

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Valentia, Viscount

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Ritchie, Rt. HR. Chas. Thomson

  Vincent, Col Sir C. E. H(Shefli'ld

  Maxwell, W. J. H.(Dumfriessh.

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Whiteley, H(Ashton-und-Lyne

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacv

  Round, James

  Williams, RtHnJPow'll-(Birm.

  More, Robt. Jasper(Shropshire)

  Reyds, Clement Molyneux

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Morley, Rt. Hn. John(Montrose

  Rutherford, John

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Morton, Arthur H. A.(Deptford)

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

  Mount, William Arthur

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H.(Yorks.)

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R.(Bath

  Muntz, Philip A.

  Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J.

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Murray, RtHn A. Graham(Bute

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B(Isle of Wight

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Myers, William Henry

  Seton-Karr, Henry

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Newdigate, Francis Alexander

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Pease, Herbt, Pike(Darlington)

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Sir William Walrond and

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robt. Wellesley

  Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.)

  Mr. Anstruther.

  MR. JAMES HOPEsaid the Amendment which he proposed to move was to leave out the word "authority" in order to insert "council of a county." The object of the Amendment was to remove the limit of rating for secondary education in County Boroughs, but would not enlarge upon this Amendment, for the reason that the hon. Baronet the Member for North-West Manchester, a master of the subject, would set forth all the reasons for it.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page I, line 23, to leave out the word 'authority,' and insert the words council of a county."—(Mr. James Hope.)
  Question proposed, "That the word authority stand part of the Clause."
  SIR WILLIAM HOULDSWORTHsaid it would be noticed that this was not an Amendment like the last, which asked for contributions from the Imperial Exchequer; it simply asked that county boroughs should have the right to rate themselves for the purposes of secondary education. Whatever arguments he could advance in justification of a limit being placed on other authorities, he Could not think that those arguments
  338
  would apply to such localities as county boroughs. The work of secondary education in county boroughs must necessarily assume very much larger proportions than it did in other localities, which would have large areas and large populations to deal with, and which he would hope in some way or another would have sufficient funds for their work. It was I evident that the county boroughs had a duty placed upon them by this Bill which they would have a great difficulty in fulfilling if they were kept within anything like the limits of the Bill. The county boroughs had unlimited power to rate for several purposes, and he did not know that that power had ever been abused. Whatever view might be taken of the action of the School Boards, he did not think there was any danger whatever of the county boroughs running riot on the question of education. He thought perfect freedom should be given to the county boroughs in this matter of secondary education; they had shown very great enthusiasm, and many of them had expended large sums of money on technical schools, and in everything that was practically secondary education. The consequence was they were in the position that they had already gone to the utmost extent in their power of rating at the present moment, and therefore any

  339
  additional duties that would be placed upon them by the transfer of the higher grade schools and evening continuation schools, would place them in the difficult position that they could not carry out those duties without greater rating powers than they would have under the Bill. This Amendment proposed to give them perfect freedom in the matter. The Committee would be able to distinguish between the authorities of large county boroughs and some of the others referred to in the Bill. The figures with regard to Manchester were very startling. If he interpreted the Bill aright, the proper discharge of the additional duties under the Bill would mean, even with the 2d. rate, a deficiency of £17,000 or £20,000 a year. Assuming that the 1d. rate for technical education was to be merged in the 2d. rate, the Council of Manchester, to carry out their work efficiently, would certainly require a 4d. or 5d., or even a 6d. rate. They had been much to the front in regard to technical education, and it would be a thousand pities if anything was done which deterred them in the work. They had the ratepayers behind them, and there was no danger of their doing anything foolish or imprudent. The object of the Amendment was to leave the county boroughs perfectly free to levy any rate that might be necessary for the proper discharge of their duties, the County Councils remaining under any limit the Committee might think proper to impose. It might be said that the Amendment should go further. That, however, was a matter for subsequent consideration, but certainly a distinction could be drawn in the case of county boroughs.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. WALTER LONG,)said the proposal in the Bill might be taken, as a whole, to meet the case of the larger boroughs. By it the Government recognised a difference on the part of some of the larger and more self-contained authorities, which were better able to realise their own requirements, and more frequently to bring them before their own constituents, than was the case in the country districts. At the same time the Government recognised that a very general claim had been made by the representatives of the larger boroughs for greater freedom, and also that those
  340
  boroughs had done very excellent work, and, on the whole, could be thoroughly trusted to exercise a wise discretion as to the amount of rate they should levy for secondary education. The Government, in accepting the Amendment, however, did so with the clear understanding that there was a definite distinction between the position of county boroughs and other urban districts in the scheme of the Bill. The county boroughs were created the authorities for education—they stood by themselves, and the Government offered no objection to this extension of their powers, but to carry the Amendment further would enormously complicate the whole scheme. There was another reason for dealing with the county boroughs somewhat differently. By the present Bill the Technical Instruction Acts would be repealed, and the power to levy the 1d. rate for technical instruction would disappear. The rate which the local authorities were able to raise under those Acts would be raised to the 2d. rate under this Bill, and that would create a discrepancy as between the respective positions of the comity and the non-county boroughs. The Government were therefore prepared to accept the Amendment.
  DR. MACNAMARAwhile grateful that the Government had gone so far, was sorry it had been thought necessary to impose any limit whatever. The ratepayers, and not the House of Commons, were responsible for the expenditure of rates. That was the position taken up by the Government in 1897.
  THE CHAIRMANpointed out that the question of limitation of the rate had been discussed and decided in a previous Amendment; it could not, therefore, be raised on the present occasion.
  DR. MACNAMARAsaid the decision of the Government rendered it unnecessary for him to state the results of inquiries he had made as to how the county boroughs would have fared under the 2d. rate, but he might say that places like Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester, and Birmingham, would all have had deficiencies of from £5000 to £10,000 a year.
  SIR. JOSEPH LEESEsaid that some Members could not be held as agreeing to the terms of the concession if it definitely excluded non-county boroughs.
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. FULLERin moving to omit all words after "exceed" in line 25 to the end of line 26, and to insert "such rate," expressed the hope that the Amendment would be read in conjunction with that of the hon. Member for Rossendale to substitute the Board of Education for the Local Government Board as the authority to fix the amount of the rate. There were two schools of opinion with regard to this Bill, one of which held the view that the County Councils would go in for boundless extravagance, while the other, to which he belonged, believed the danger to be not in the extravagance, but in the apathy of the County Councils. The main danger was not that they would spend too much, but that they would spend too little. The effect of the Amendment would be in strict consonance with the intention of the proviso—viz., in the direction of economy. Both of the schools of opinion to which he had referred, ought to support the Amendment, because it would bring the local education authority into close touch with the central authority. The Leader of the House had expressed himself as opposed to any proposal which would hamper the independence and liberty of the County Councils. His own belief was that if the Government would not give the County Councils the money to proceed with a proper policy of secondary education they would have to bring some form of pressure to bear, or the country would get no secondary education at all. The Return showed that in the counties of England £470,000 was spent upon technical education. All that came out of the whisky money, with the exception of a paltry £433, which was drawn from the rates. His point was that the new education authorities would have a long way to travel before they could work up to a policy of a 2d. rate in aid of the higher education. This Amendment would establish a policy by which the central authority would be able to say to the County Council
  342
  "We have had no application from you to levy a rate for secondary education, and the Board of Education wish to know what your County Council is doing in the matter." He was perfectly certain that unless some Government pressure was brought to bear, there were many counties where Part II. of the Bill would be practically inoperative in the future. They had today a system which would establish a permanent inequality of opportunity in different parts of the country. He had taken at random three wealthy counties, Lancashire, Durham, and the West Riding of Yorkshire. The existing county rate over those three counties was 4⅓d. Take the next three poor agricultural counties, Buckinghamshire, Wiltshire, and Hertfordshire, where the rate was 1s. 0¼d. as compared with 4⅓d. in the larger counties. Unless the Government took powers under this part of the Act to bring pressure to bear on these backward counties, they would have no secondary education at all in a great many of them. For these reasons he begged to move the Amendment standing in his name.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 1, line 25, after the word 'exceed,' to leave out to end of line 26, and insert the words 'such rate.'"—(Mr. Fuller.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
  MR. WALTER LONGthought the arguments which had been used by the hon. Member appeared to be more in favour of the principle contained in the previous Amendment, rather than the Amendment now under consideration. The hon. Member suggested that the Board of Education should be substituted for the Local Government Board, but the Board of Education had not the means, or the staff, to hold the inquiries which were necessary to see whether the proposed expenditure was reasonable or not. Then there was the proposal that the county authorities should be given unlimited discretion, subject to the control of the Local Government Board, which was to be called upon to hold inquiries and to

  343
  decide whether there should be an increase of expenditure or not. This would throw an amount of work upon the Local Government Board which he did not think the hon. Member could realise, and on behalf of the Government he was obliged to ask the Committee to reject the proposal, which he did not think was in the interests of the localities and would not be the result which was desired, of having some central Department to push the local authorities forward along the path of secondary education. He thought some distinction ought to be made, and he held that inquiries by a Government Department were altogether impracticable.
  LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICEsaid he was perfectly willing to grant that with regard to inquiries about rates there was a very strong case for trusting to the Local Government Board rather than to the Education Board. He was inclined to think that some hon. Members would ask why they were to bring in a Government Department at all to perform what he understood was to be the duty of the new Education Authority, and which was to be trusted as to the amount it was going to raise for educational purposes. This was quite a different matter to those questions in connection with which Government inquiries were now held. The real question was whether they were to trust the local authorities or not. He did not think the right hon. Gentleman in charge of this Bill, or the President of the Local Government Board, could complain of the representatives of large County Councils if they rather protested against being treated in a different manner. If anything, there was the danger which his hon. friend had described, that some counties might be rather backward. Some counties might desire to be too forward, but he supported this Amendment upon one broad ground, and that was that if they called large bodies of this kind into existence they ought to have confidence in them. Night after night from hon. Members opposite they had repeatedly heard this argument. Whether any particular county had acted wisely or not was not so very germane now, because, up to the present time, the County Councils had not had any clearly defined duty or power conferred upon them of
  344
  supplying secondary education. Where the County Councils did act, they did so with the fear of Mr. Cockerton before their eyes, and, therefore, nobody could find fault with the Councils for having acted with extreme prudence in the matter. They had been asking for years that English counties should be placed in the same position as Wales with regard to secondary education, and if the Bill did this, he believed it would be found that the County Councils would do their duty.
  MR. HENRY HOBHOUSEsaid he did not think that his noble friend quite appreciated the effect of this Amendment, because, far from giving them more independence of action, it would tie their hands. Now surely no friend of local government ought to make such a proposal.
  LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICEsaid an Amendment would subsequently be moved striking out the reference to any Government Department.
  MR. HENRY HOBHOUSEsaid that even if any reference to a Government Department were struck out, what would be the position then? The County Council would be unable to levy any rate for the purpose of secondary education without a Provisional Order. That was not a position in which the County Councils ought to be put. He had too much knowledge of the feelings of the country ratepayers to fear what had been said with regard to the amount they would spend, but at the outset it was necessary not to unduly alarm the country ratepayers. He believed that a, two-penny rate, or even a penny rate, would meet all immediate demands. It was obvious, if there was to be a division at all, there must be some moans of giving elasticity to the limit. It would enable a County Council in an exceptional position, such as the West Riding of Yorkshire, to apply to get a higher limit than that laid down in the Act. He would suggest that when that was the case, they need not resort to the cumbrous machinery of a Provisional Order. Surely the consent of a responsible Government Department, given after proper inquiry, ought to be a sufficient safeguard where a higher rate was demanded. He believed

  345
  it was, an unprecedented thing that a local authority should only be able to raise a. higher rate, when it had gone through all the formalities required by the passing of a Provisional Order through Parliament. There was a provision, no doubt, in respect of borrowing powers, which was somewhat analogous to this. When a County Council had raised loans equal to one-tenth of the assessable value of the whole county, there was a provision in the Local Government Act of 1888 that the amount could only be increased by Provisional Order. He conceived that that was the precedent which the Government had followed in this case. There was a remarkable difference in the two cases. The raising of large loans affected posterity, but the rates levied only affected the present ratepayers, and surely they might be trusted to a great extent to look alter themselves. By referring to Clause 14 of the present Bill hon. Members would find that the amount to be raised by the Bill was not altogether within limits. But anyhow it was contrary to all the principles of local government to say that the County Council should not raise the rate to any extent whatever without going to a Government Department.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid tie proposal prevented any County Council from raising the rate without first of all coming to some Government Department. What his hon. friend desired was that the Education Department should be put in the Clause instead of the Local Government Board. The precedent underlying the proposal of his hon. friend behind him was rather an unfortunate one. The application to the Local Government Board under the Local Government Act was a protection against our expenditure, whereas what his hon. friend wanted was that there should be no restrictions placed on the County Council. If anything could be devised to "jog along" the County Council he would be entirely in favour of it. There was a precedent for such a course in the Public Health Act of 1875 which gave the Local Government Board power to compel local authorities to do certain things which wore in their jurisdiction. He was
  346
  afraid that he would not be able to support the Amendment. He gathered from what was said by the noble Lord that he objected to the putting of any fetters on the County Councils at all, but the proposal made involved the putting of fetters on them.
  LORD EDMUND FITTZMAURICE: A great part of my observations were devoted to answering the argument of the President of the Local Government Board in regard to the substitution of the Education Department for the Local Government Board.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid it was important to bear in mind that the rate, whether it be 2d. or 4d. was some indication of what Parliament intended the County Councils to do. The inquiry which the Local Government Board would have to hold when application was made in the way proposed would cause delay. He believed the Amendment would defeat the object which his hon. friend had in view.
  MR. COURTENAY WARNERsaid he did not see any necessity for putting in this restriction before the Committee came to deal with the question of safeguarding the pockets of the ratepayers. He thought this Amendment was the beginning of a series of Amendments that might free the hands of the County Councils. It would only remove the first part of the restrictions and leave it open to the House, or the Government, to put something in the Bill later on which would restrict the County Councils from over expenditure.
  Question put and agreed to.
  MR. BRYNMOR JONESrose to move an Amendment with the object of giving local authorities greater freedom in determining how far they would rate their districts for the purposes of secondary or technical education.
  THE CHAIRMAN: The only question now remaining is what particular figures are to be put in.
  MR. BRYNMOR JONESasked why the Government had drawn the line for

  347
  the rate for secondary education at 2d. He would not suggest an unlimited rate, but thought that 4d. would be a reasonable rate, and accordingly he moved to leave out 2d. and insert 4d.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 1, line 26, to leave out the word 'twopence,' and insert the word 'fourpence.'"—(Mr. Brynmore Jones.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'twopence' stand part of the Clause."
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that the hon. Gentleman began his speech by asking whether it was necessary to put any limit to the rate, because it was always easy to raise it up or down without detriment to the interests of the people. The Government had fixed 2d. for the reasons he had given in the previous discussions. The existing powers of the County Councils were limited to 1d., and the Government proposed to double those powers. Recognising the new duties imposed on them the Government did not wish to increase their powers, because they quite realised that in a large number of rural districts there was a considerable suspicion of the burdens about to be laid upon them by this Bill; and in the interests of education itself, it was not desirable to aggravate that suspicion. These were practical reasons which would recommend themselves to practical Members of the Committee. In view of the concession that had been made he hoped the Committee would be willing to leave the Bill in its present shape.
  MR. BRYCEsaid he could not understand why the Government felt this extraordinary distrust of the County Councils, or why they should attribute to the ratepayers this distrust of the County Councils. He gladly admitted that the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury knew probably more about the sentiments of rural England than he did, but it seemed difficult to believe that the ratepayers of rural England had so little confidence in their chosen representatives, and so little sense of what was needed in this case, as to believe that merely because a limit of 3d. or 4d. was allowed, their County Councils would rate up to that limit unless at the next election they thought that the educations needs of the country required it. The existing rate was 1d., but it was for
  348
  technical instruction, and now that they were going in for secondary education there was greater reason to raise the limit. Every year the need for doing something for secondary education was becoming more recognised, and there seemed some reason to believe that it would penetrate down even to Gloucestershire. Why should the County Councils have to go to the Local Government Board, which was not an educational authority at all, for permission to exceed the limit? Would it not be better to trust the County Councils and the ratepayers themselves? He would be very glad to have any concession from the Government, and he would suggest to his hon. friend, if the Government would meet him, to fix the limit at 3d. instead of 4d.
  MR. CHAPLINsaid that the whole argument of the right hon. Gentleman only confirmed the rooted suspicion which he held that the additional charges for education imposed by this Bill on the rates would, in the long run, be greater than many persons at present seemed to expect. He gathered this from experience in the past. Mr. Forster, when he introduced his Education Bill, stated that the charge on the rates would never exceed 3d. in the £, whereas at the present day ten times 3d. in some cases would not equal the charge.
  MR. GEORGE WHITEsaid there was a very earnest desire amongst all sections of the community to get some money for secondary education from the Imperial Treasury.
  THE CHAIRMAN: That question does not arise on this Amendment.
  MR. GEORGE WHITEsaid he thought that it bore on the matter now under discussion. It was very difficult to get a Vote from the House in behalf of secondary education, and that was really at the back of this Amendment. He had been present with a deputation which waited on the First Lord of the Treasury, when the right hon. Gentleman pointed out that one of the features of the Bill was that they would get a very large advantage from it for the building of undenominational training colleges and pupil teachers' centres; but he would like the right hon. Gentleman to show how all that could be

  349
  done on the 2d. rate. Moreover, higher grade schools and evening continuation schools were necessary, and these could not he provided along the training colleges and the pupil teachers' centres on the 2d. rate. Knowing the great anxiety there was in the country to do something more than at present for secondary education, ho was sorry the First Lord did not seem inclined to meet the wishes of the people in this matter.
  MR. CIIANNINGsupported the Amendment, mainly on the ground of the difference between some administrative counties and others. Some were districts absolutely rural in their character; at present their wants were somewhat limited, although he hoped that under the new state of things their wants would greatly expand, arid that further opportunities would be afforded for providing in agricultural districts the teaching which had done be much to give the population in Denmark and France a more thorough training than our own people's, lie wished, however, to put the case of a large number of administrative counties which included urban districts under the 20,000 limit. It was obvious that in those districts the educational authority would now have to meet all the expenditure of the schools affected by the Cockerton judgment, which would now be thrown on the 2d. rate. As he understood, under this Bill those urban districts would riot be entitled to impose the penny rate concurrently with the County Councils, so that the whole of the expenditure of these Cockerton schools and evening continuation classes would be thrown upon the county education authority. In several divisions with which he was acquainted the limit of 2d. would be extremely narrow for providing for these schools withdrawn from the School Boards and thrown on the educational authority in addition to the other secondary and technical schools which would have to be supplied or aided. In his opinion, the Amendment was a reasonable one; he thought full responsibility should be thrown on the educational authority in every district. He knew that in some counties there might be a tendency to withhold the rates
  350
  and deny to the people that education which was given them in continental countries, with such advantage to the nation. The wants of districts such as he represented could not be fully met at the present time, and they certainly could not be developed in the future out of this limited rate. He thought the Amendment was a very moderate one and hoped the Government would see their way to meet the Committee in this matter.
  MR. HELMEexpressed the opinion that the Government ought to have regard to the facts. In some districts a very much larger sum was needed than in others, and for those the rate now proposed was utterly inadequate. The Government had given away their own case by accepting the Amendment which rightly gave the county boroughs freedom in this matter. In some counties a very large expenditure was now necessary for the building of secondary school premises in many country districts. That was an entirely new work which would come in with the new duties imposed upon them. Hitherto the cost of erecting technical schools had in some places almost absorbed the penny rate given to technical education, and he thought the Government ought to yield at once on this point and allow a greater sum than the 2d. mentioned in the Bill. It was undesirable that where a County Council was charged with the important work of education, and they saw it must exceed the 2d. rate they should have to come to the Local Government Board. The position of these County Councils was intolerable when compared with that now conceded to the County Boroughs, and he urged the Government to consent to this 2d, being struck out and the larger sum of 4d. being inserted.
  MR. COKRIE GKANTsaid the Government had already built up a distinctive line between the County Boroughs and the County Councils. The County Boroughs were free to spend what they liked, whilst the County Councils were limited to a fixed sum. When educationists came to argue this matter with the County Councils, the answer would lie that they were limited to 2d., and that

  351
  they ought to keep their expenditure.1 good deal below that limit. That would always. be the argument of the non-educationists, and, though the same argument would no doubt be used if the limit were raised to 4d., it would have a very different effect. He thought the County Councils ought to be thoroughly free. He was unable to understand the distinction drawn between the County Borough and the County Council, and he indignantly repudiated the suggestion that the County Council was not as efficient for this purpose as the County Borough. But, as there was to be a limit fixed, at all events it ought to be a generous one. Those who knew County Councils well, know there was an earnest desire to carry out the provisions of such a Bill as this, but it was perfectly impossible that they could do it within the limits proposed.
  MR. DUNCANsaid it was perfectly true that in the West Hiding of Yorkshire they had not in early years spent all the money placed at their disposal under the Technical Education Act. At that time it was well known there was a possibility that Parliament might withdraw some of this money and devote it to other purposes. But in the year ending July next the total expenditure of the Technical Education Committee amounted to a sum of £46,000, of which £14,000 was the accumulated fund, which £14,000 would have to have come out of the rates had they not accumulated it. Nearly a halfpenny in the pound was devoted to technical instruction, and for these new duties which were to be put upon the new educational authorities they would have that amount less. There were on all sides appeals from the Technical Instruction Committees for increased grants. The West Riding of Yorkshire had an enormous variety of interests which demanded treatment—agricultural work, which was making continual new demands upon the public purse, textile work, mechanical engineering, coal mining, leather tanning; arid, in the last few years, there had been a demand for instruction in foreign languages and all classes of commerce. So that, even if these new duties had not been put upon them, the County Councils
  352
  would have had to meet great demands for those subjects which they already taught. Another point to which he drew attention was that in the West Hiding there were If urban districts which would lose the right to levy the Id. rate for technical education purposes, and of those, thirty-nine had devoted sonic part of the loan fund to that purpose. One particular urban district was placed in a peculiarly difficult position by this Bill. It possessed the finest school of science in the North of England, and, having been deprived of the Id. rate, and the School Board having no power to assist in the future, the 2d. rate mentioned in the Bill would not in itself be sufficient to keep up the school. He urged that this limit of the power of rating should be taken off the County Councils.
  MR. HERBERT LEWISsaid he hoped the Government would give a little more elasticity in this respect, and would not insist upon treating all the Councils upon the same monotonous dead level, just as if the West Riding of Yorkshire were the same as Wiltshire arid Gloucestershire. Let agricultural counties, if they desired to do so, curtail their expenditure on secondary and technical education, but let the non-agricultural counties develop their own secondary and technical education in their own way, and to the extent they deemed to be necessary for all the growing needs in respect of which repeatedly increased calls were being made on education in this country. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sleaford had given some rather pessimistic prophecies as to what the future of these rates would be, but he could assure the right hon. Gentleman that what had happened in elementary education in some isolated instances need not necessarily happen in connection with secondary education, and if the power of rating themselves up to a point beyond 2d. was granted to the counties of England, he thought the power would not be exercised in an extravagant way.
  (5.33.) Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 233; Noes, 161. (Division List No. 252.)

  AYES

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Firbank, Joseph Thomas

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Agg-Gardner, James, Tynte

  Fisher, William Hayes

  M'lver, Sir Lewis(Edinburgh W

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Fison, Frederick William

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Aird, Sir John

  Fitz Gerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Martin. Richard Biddulph

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Maxwell, W. J. H.(Dumfriessh.

  Atkinson, Rt. hon, John

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Hemy

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Flower, Ernest

  Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G.

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Foster, Philips(Warwick. S. W.

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Gardner, Ernest

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Morton, Arthur H. A.(Deptford

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Gordon, Hn. J. E (Elgin & Nairn

  Mount, William Arthur

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J.(Manch'r

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Balfour, Rt. HuGerald W. (Leeds

  Gore, Hn. G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop

  Muntz, Philip A.

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Line.)

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham(Bute

  Banuley, George (C. T.

  Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon

  Myers, William Henry

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Newdigate, Francis Alexander

  Reach, Rt Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Green, Walford D (Wednesbury

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Bill, Charles

  Greene, Sir E. W (B'ry S E dm'nds

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Parker, Gilbert

  Bond, Edward

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Pease, Herbt. Pike(Darlington)

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Penn, John

  Boulnois, Edmund

  Gunter, Sir Robert

  Percy, Earl

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Hain, Edward

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Bowles, T. Gibson (Lynn Regis

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Brassey, Albert

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Bull, William James

  Hamilton, Marq. Of (L'nd'nd'rry

  Purvis, Robert

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Pym, C. Guy

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A (Glasgow

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

  Randles, John S.

  Carson. Kt, Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Rankin, Sir James

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lanes.)

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbyshire

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Heath. James (Statfords, N. W.)

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Holder, Augustus

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

  Henderson, Alexander

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Chamberlain, J. Austen(Worc'r

  Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

  Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Chapman, Edward

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Charrington, Spencer

  Hobhouse, Henry(Somerset, E.)

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Coddington, Sir William

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Round, James.

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside

  Rutherford, John

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Horner, Frederick Wm.

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready

  Hoult, Joseph

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Howard, Jno (Kent, Faversham

  Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J.

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Howard, J.(Midd., Tottenham)

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B(Isle of Wight

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Seton-Karr, Henry

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Johnston, William (Belfast)

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Smith, James. Parker (Lanarks)

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Kimber, Henry

  Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Stroyan, John

  Dorington, Sir John Edward

  Lecky. Rt. Hn. William Edw. H.

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Lee, Arthur H.(Hants, Fareham

  Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G(Oxf'd Univ.

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Long. Col. Charles W.(Evesham

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Faber, Edmund B.(Hants, W.)

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)

  Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J (Manc'r

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Macartney, Rt Hn. W. G. Ellison

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H (Sheffild

  Finch, George H.

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Maclver, David (Liverpool)

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  354

  355

  Welby, Sir Charles G. F.(Notts.)

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Whiteley, H(Ashton-und-Lyne

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Williams, Rt Hn. J Pow'll-(Birm.

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R.(Bath)

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorsel)

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Sir William Walrond and

  Wilson, A. Stanley(York, E. R.)

  Worsley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Mr. Anstruther.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William(Cork, N. E.)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Allan, William (Gateshead)

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Pease, Sir Joseph W. (Durham

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robt. Wellesley

  Atherley-Jones L.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Perks, Robert William

  Banes, Major George Edward

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Price, Robert John

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Hormman, Frederick John

  Priestley, Arthur

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Rea, Russell

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Reddy, M.

  Black, Alexander William

  Hutton, Alfred F. (Morley)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Black, Alexander William

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Boland, John

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries

  Bowles, Capt. H. F (Middlesex)

  Joyce, Michael

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Brown, George M.(Edinburgh)

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Kitson, Sir James

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Lambert. George

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Burt, Thomas

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Russell, T. W.

  Caldwell, James

  Leamy Edmund

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Cameron, Robert

  Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

  Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Leng, Sir John

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Lewis, John. Herbert

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Lloyd-George, David

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Channing, Francis Alston

  Lough, Thomas

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Cnombie, John William

  Lundon, W.

  Sullivan, Donal

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Tennaut, Harold John

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

  Macnamana, Dr. Thomas J.

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Delany, William

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Thomas, Alfred((Glamorgan, E.)

  Denny, Colonel

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Thomas, JA(Glamorgan, Gower

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  M'Kean, John

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.

  Donelan, Captain A.

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Tomkinson, James

  Doogan, P. C.

  M'Killop W. (Sligo, North)

  Toulmin, George

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Dunn, Sir William

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Tully, Jasper

  Edwards, Frank

  Morley, Rt. Hn. John(Montrose

  Ure, Alexander

  Elibank, Master of

  Murphy, John

  Wallace, Robert

  Ellis, John Edward

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Weir, James Galloway

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Nusssey, Thomas Willans

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

  Witeley, George (York, W. R.)

  Foster, Sir Michael (Lond. Univ.

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipp'rary Mid

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  O'Brien, P. J.(Tipperary, N

  Williams, Osmand (Merioneth)

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

  Wilson, Chas, Henry (Hull, W.)

  Glandstone, Rt. Hn. Herbt. John

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  O'Dowd, John

  Wood, James

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T.(Huddersf'd

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  O'Shaughnessy P. J.

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Gurthrie, Walter Murray

  Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Partington, Oswald

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Harwood, George

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Mr. Brynmor Jones and

  Hay, Hon. Claude Geroge

  Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland)

  Mr. Corrie Grant.

  SIR ALBERT ROLLITrose to move the insertion, after "pound" in line 26, of the words "provided that the Board of Education may authorise a higher rate to be fixed."
  MR. CORRIE GRANTpointed out that the Amendment raised two questions—first, whether the Board of Education should be substituted for the Local Government Board, and, secondly, whether the amount of the rate

  357
  should be fixed by Provisional Order or by the Board. He desired to debate those two points separately, and asked whether the Amendment could not be so divided.
  THE CHAIRMANsaid he had no I control over the form in which the Amendment was moved. The Amendment could not very well be divided, unless the hon. Member persuaded the hon. Member for South Islington to withdraw it in its present form.
  MR. CORRIE GRANTsuggested that the substitution of the Board of Education for the Local Government Board should be moved first, and then the other point could be raised subsequently.
  SIR ALBEBT ROLLITsaid that, while he was anxious to move the Amendment in the form most acceptable to the Committee, be thought he had better adhere to the words on the Paper, and then hon. Members could move to amend them if they thought fit. The Committee having decided that the limitation of the rate should exist, it was obvious that some machinery must be provided for sanctioning an exceptional rate. For the purpose of providing technical schools or other buildings, cither there would be great delay while funds were accumulating, or there must be some means by which a larger amount of money might be raised. It seemed strange that the Local Government Board should have been selected as the body to sanction such higher rate, and he confessed that, while he had every regard for that Department, he thought its intrusion in the Bill for this purpose was exceptional and open to objection. Why should there be a singular change from the Board of Education 011 this point? The cumbersome and costly machinery of Provisional Orders and recourse to Parliament was also an objection to the proposal. Local Authorities already paid three- quarters of a million per annum for Parliamentary powers The Board of Education would be much easier of access; the local authorities would be brought into contact with the Board and its officers; there would be more sympathy with the economic aspect of education, and greater knowledge of the requirements in par-
  358
  ticular cases. He thought, for these reasons, that the Board of Education would be more likely to sanction the higher rate to provide the necessary funds for building and similar purposes, and he therefore moved the Amendment.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 1, line 26, after the word 'pound,' to insert the words 'provided that the Board of Education may authorise a higher rate to be fixed.'"—(Sir Albert Rollit.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be here inserted."
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that as to the first point raised by the Amendment, viz., as to the part to be played by the Local Government Board, he did not think it would be wise to alter the provision of the Bill. It was the Local Government Board, and not the Board of Education, who were accustomed to deal with questions of rating; it was the former, rather than the latter, whose business it was to consider, and who had the machinery for acquainting themselves with the facts concerning the general pecuniary obligations and needs of the country. The whole ground of the restriction which the Committee had agreed to insert in the Bill was financial, and not educational. He was aware that the educationists in the House were opposed to that, limitation, but the solitary argument upon which he relied was that, in his judgment, it would array against the Bill, against the cause of education, and particularly against the progress of secondary education, the general population in many rural districts, if they had the idea that an unlimited rate was to be thrown upon them. Had he been able, and had it been right, to approach this matter purely as an educationist, thinking only of the abstract aspect of education, and not of its concrete application to different communities, he would not have imposed any limitation at all. But this limitation was imposed in the interests of education; and because the considerations involved were financial, they ought to be dealt with by the Government Department connected particularly with local finance. He, therefore, deprecated any change in that

  359
  respect. If, however, the Committee would take it as a compromise that the elaborate machinery provided in the Bill should be given up, and the assent of the Local Government Board simply required, he thought on that basis they might agree, and shorten the discussion.
  MR. CRIPPSsaid he had an Amendment on the Paper raising a question very similar to that dealt with by the Amendment before the Committee, but his object would be entirely met by the preservation of the Local Government Board, and the doing away of the cumbrous machinery of Provisional Order. He suggested that the clause should read: "or such higher rate as the County Council may fix with the consent of the Local Government Board." The Local Government Board ought not to be the rating authority; the rate should come from the County Council, but with the consent of the Local Government Board.
  MR. BRYCEthought the words suggested by the hon. and learned Member for Stretford would certainly be an improvement. It was much better that the proposal as to the rate should come from the County Council, and that the Government Department, if it was to come in at all, should come in to give consent, to administer a caution, or even, in extreme cases, to impose a veto. It would also be a great improvement if the existing proposal as to Provisional Orders was omitted. But he still had a difficulty in recognising the Local Government Board as superior to the Board of Education. The right hon. Gentleman had put it as though it was only a question of finance. It was a question of balance between finance on the one hand and education on the other. A case could be imagined in which a county might refuse to propose the rate educationally needed because it was thought to be too high a charge on the ratepayers. On the other hand, many cases could be imagined in which people would not be willing, prima facie, to rate themselves, but in which they would consent to do so if it was clear that a strong educational necessity existed for it. Therefore, any Government Department to which might be
  360
  entrusted the function of coming in as an advisory or vetoing authority ought to be I one capable of appreciating educational, no less than financial, considerations. It appeared, however, that the plan of I the Government was directed only to financial considerations, which alone were to be regarded by any Government Department in the matter.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: No, no.
  MR. BRYCEsaid that was the gist of his argument. The right hon. Gentle man admitted that this Board did not possess any educational knowledge or judgment, and his argument went to show that it was to be regarded only as a matter of finance and educational considerations were not to enter into it. It was impossible for any Government Department to form a proper judgment upon this question unless it possessed educational knowledge. The finances must also be regarded, and the County Councils themselves would be fully alive to the financial considerations which ought to influence their minds. If they were to be in any way controlled, checked, guided, or advised by sonic Government Department, it should be one which possessed educational knowledge, and between the two he should prefer the Board of Education. If any plan could be devised by which the Board of Education and the Local Government Board could be brought together for the purpose, so much the better.
  MR. BOUSFIELDsaid the suggestion made by the right hon. Gentleman was one which pointed in the other direction. He contended that, inasmuch as the local authority was the body which had to move in the matter, the considerations which the Government Department would have to deal with were wholly financial. The balance would be properly struck between the local education authority, who would look at the matter from the educational point of view, and the Local Government Board, who would look at it from the point of view of finance.
  MR. BRYNMOR JONESsaid the only question under the operation

  361
  of this clause in its present form that, could come before the Local Government Board would he the question whether, if a County Council asked for permission to levy a higher rate, the Local Government Board would or would not assent to bringing in a Provisional Order, It was not simply a question of finance. The question whether a County Council ought to be allowed to levy a higher rate than 2d. was to be decided by reference to educational circumstances, aims, and policy. Therefore, he agreed with this Amendment so far as it substituted the Board of Education for the Local Government Board. He thought, however, that there was something to be said in favour of the suggestion made by the hon. Member for Stretford. He should like the First Lord of the Treasury to tell them the exact words which he proposed to move.
  SIR ALBERT ROLLITsaid he should be quite willing to accept the words suggested by the First Lord of the Treasury, but only as a compromise, since he preferred the Board of Education to the Local Government Board as the tribunal. The one principle he wished to maintain was that the local authority, having full local knowledge, should fix the amount, subject to the sanction of the Local Government Board or the Education Department, and the only alteration required to the Amendment would be to leave out from "higher rate" at the end of line 26, and insert "such higher rate as the County Council, with the consent of the Local Government Board, may fix."
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEthought that the best suggestion was that the Board of Education and the Local Government Board should collaborate. There was a precedent for this course in the bodies appointed to manage piers and harbours. The Local Government Board had no right to inquire as to the efficiency of a harbour, but their inquiries had to be in regard to the financial condition of the town, which had to be inquired into by the Local Government Board before enterprises of that kind could be embarked upon. The first thing which the Department would have to be satisfied upon was
  362
  whether the scheme propounded by the County Council from an educational point of view was good and efficient, and would produce the best results. The Local Government Board had no machinery for undertaking such inquiries, because their inspectors were of a perfectly different training, as a rule, and consisted mainly of engineers qualified to go into such questions as drainage; and to send such men to inquire into the educational requirements of a neighbourhood would be perfectly absurd. He would suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should adopt the suggestion which fell from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Aberdeen—that they should follow the precedent set in the case of piers and harbours, by which the Board of Education could inquire into the matter from a purely educational point of view, and the Local Government Board could enter into the financial question as to whether a locality could bear an additional 3d. or 4d. on the rates, having regard to the expenditure upon other enterprises. He thought it would be a very great mistake to hand this question over to the Local Government Board. When Parliament interfered with such schemes, it never improved them, and generally managed to mutilate and destroy them. Parliament could not go into local questions with advantage, and to introduce Provisional Orders was mischievous.
  MR. WALTER LONGhoped the Committee would not adopt the suggestion that had been made. It really amounted to a proposal that there should be two inquiries, one by the Education Department and one by the Local Government Board. This would only delay matters. The Local Government Board would, no doubt, communicate with the Board of Education in such applications as to the educational needs of a locality making an application, and would then decide upon its financial position. For years past the Local Government Board had been doing their best to induce local authorities to get forward with their work in other respects, and it was not likely that they would do anything to hinder the work of education. He thought the Committee would agree that there should be an inquiry by the

  363
  Local Government Board into the whole case, without- the intervention of any other Department.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid that if they were to have only one Government Department he should prefer to have the Board of Education. In the Local Government Board they had no equipment to gauge the educational necessities of any district, because the Local Government Board officials wore generally ex-Army or ex-Navy men, who knew nothing about education.
  MR. WALTER LONG: The majority of our inspectors belong to the same profession as the hon. Member opposite.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSadmitted that there were benighted persons even in the legal profession. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Sleaford Division was in the ranks of the very well educated, but they knew that he thought that a person was better qualified for agricultural employment if he had not passed the second standard than if he had been to a second grade school. If they were to have a Government Department at all interfering in this matter, ho would prefer that it should be the Education Department. That Department should go thoroughly into the matter first; and, if there must be another to go into the financial part, then they could ask the approval of the Local Government Board. There was a spirit of compromise abroad, and he hoped that an arrangement might be come to 011 this matter. He thought everybody would agree that those connected with the Education Department were best able to judge of educational necessity. If they said that in a locality educational necessity was not sufficiently provided for, it would require a strong case to warrant the Local Government Board in refusing to carry out the recommendation of the Education Department. To give effect to the suggestion made on this side of the House, he suggested the insertion in the Amendment of the words "with the approval of the Local Government Board," so that it would read: "Provided that the Board of Education, with the approval of the Local Government Board, may authorise a higher rate to be fixed."
  LORD EDMUND FITZ-MAUBICEsaid he would earnestly urge
  364
  upon the Committee, from the point of view of administration, that, whether the controlling body was the Board of Education or the Local Government Board, the localities should not be saddled with a double inquiry. He spoke from experience in regard to matters of local government which were inquired into first by the Local Government Board and afterwards by the Treasury. Very often between these two inquiries a great deal of precious time was lost. He could not understand why they could not get rid of both the Board of Education and Local Government Board, and treat the County Councils with the confidence they deserved.
  MR. ERNEST GRAYsaid he was sorry that the hon. Member for South Islington was likely to abandon his proposal. The local authority was charged with the duty of aiding the supply of higher education. Already the whisky money was mortgaged in many cases for the next thirty or forty years, and in some instances a portion of the penny rate was already mortgaged for the buildings which had been erected for technical instruction, and debts had to be paid off He took it that when the local authorities commenced their work they would not reach the 2d. limit, but when the work reached a stage when they required, say, a 2½d. rate who was to decide whether the work was to be done or left undone? It seemed to him that the authority to do that was the authority who had encouraged the County Council to enter into this work. If, in the execution of plans adopted in accordance with recommendations in connection with secondary schools, a County Council found that the cost would involve the overstepping of the 2d. limit, the Local Government Board would come in to determine whether the Council ought to spend the money in carrying out a scheme which had the approval of the Board of Education. All this was to be subjected to a new authority which had no previous knowledge whatever of the higher education work carried on in the district. He hoped the Government would see the necessity of placing the control, if control there must be—he regretted that any should be thought necessary—in the

  365
  hands of the Board of Education. The financial considerations would often be microscopical, and the educational very important. One of the first duties of the new authority would be to consider whether certain private secondary schools would suffice for the educational needs of their district, or whether they would erect and conduct now secondary schools. If this involved the overstepping of a 2d. rate, the Local Government Board would be called in, and what they would really have to decide would be whether inefficient secondary schools were to be kept up. That was a question which, he maintained, the Local Government Board ought not to adjudicate upon.
  MR. WHITLEYsaid he was glad the Government had knocked out the proposal with regard to the Provisional Order. That matter having been agreed to on both sides of the House, the Amendment they were now discussing involved, practically, the question whether the Local Government Board or the Education Department was the best authority to give sanction for a higher rate than 2d., which was the one suggested in the Bill itself. A fortnight ago he had gone down to the country to see the inspectors of the Board of Education conducting an inquiry into the secondary schools. That was a comparatively new branch of the Education Department in his part of the country, and he was bound to say that he was highly pleased with the way in which these inspectors had investigated not only the educational efficiency of the schools, but their financial condition, and the overlapping competition with other secondary schools. In fact, they took a wide and large view of the whole field of secondary education, and he came away with a very favourable impression of these inspectors from the Board of Education. He had had more experience than he would like to narrate in regard to Local Government Board inquiries in regard to drainage and public health; but how could these engineering inspectors of the Local Government Board conduct an inquiry as to proposed expenditure on secondary education? Who could judge so well as the
  366
  inspectors of the Board of Education of the necessities of secondary education in a particular district? He took it that the chief ground of their decision would be whether more money might be spent to good purpose on secondary education in the district or not. If the money already spent was being spent to good purpose, they would trust the local authorities; but if they found that it was not so, they would be quite right in refusing more money until the local authorities showed a more adequate return for the money spent. They could not help remembering that, but for the "general post" which took place a short time ago, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Sleaford Division would have been President of the Local Government Board, and that right hon. Gentleman would not think him disrespectful when he said that his whole attitude throughout the discussion of this Bill showed that he would have met every application with a negative. That was an argument for putting the decision in the hands of gentlemen who knew something about education, and could tell whether the money was properly spent or not.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he hoped that in discussing the alternatives Board of Education and Local Government Board, hon. Members would remember that the Government had endeavoured to meet the wishes of the Committee as far as possible, and that they would compress their arguments as much as possible.
  MR. HELMEsaid he thought that it would remove difficulties if the interposition of the Local Government Board were confined to a decision as to the financial ability of the country to bear the expenditure over the limit prescribed by the Act upon the figures in the balance sheet and estimates submitted by the local authority and not on the educational policy involved.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that ho took it that the Local Government Board would regard the fact that the County Council desired to carry out an educational improvement as a ground for permitting the County Council to do as they desired. What the Board would have to do would be to see whether legitimately,

  367
  having regard to all other interests of the ratepayers, the educational advantages were such as the county should pay for.
  MR. HUMPHREYS-OWENsaid that the inspectors of the Board of Education had had a good deal of experience in conducting not only educational inspection, but also into the financial details of administration.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Not of the area.
  MR. HUMPHREYS-OWENsaid he quite agreed not of the area; but the inspectors of the Board of Education would have no difficulty whatever in considering and reporting on the ability of an area to bear additional expenditure on secondary education.
  SIR ALBERT ROLLITsaid he would have preferred the authority of the Board of Education, but it would be unwise to reject the compromise offered by the Government as such, and he, by leave, would withdraw his Amendment, and move to insert, after the words "or such higher rate," the words "as the County Council, with the consent of."
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 1, line 26, after the words 'or such higher rate,' to insert the word 'as the County Council with the consent of.'"—(Sir Albert Rollit.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  MR. CHAPLINsaid he regarded the consent of the Local Government Board as a very insufficient safeguard. If Parliament sanctioned this proposal, he thought it would be impossible for a President of the Local Government Board to refuse, under those circumstances, an application of the County Council. The effect of the proposal would be to facilitate the addition of further charges on the rates, and as such he must repeat his objections to it.
  MAJOR RASCHsaid ho stood aghast at the proposal contained in the Amendment, and he supported with great pleasure the protest of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sleaford.
  368
  Agriculturists had had to suffer a great deal for elementary education; and if the proposal made by the Member for South Islington were adopted, they would be financially exterminated for secondary education. He thought the agricultural Members would be a great deal more foolish than they were supposed to be if they supported this Amendment.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  MR. BRYNMOR JONESmoved to omit "Local Government Board" and to insert "Education Board." He said he vas glad the First Lord of the Treasury had given in on the method of procedure by Provisional Order. The question the Committee now had to decide was one of extreme simplicity. He could not conceive how it could be argued by anyone in favour of higher education that the question of a higher rate should be determined by the Local Government Board.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 1, line 27, to leave out the words 'Local Government Board,' and insert the words 'Board of Education.'"—(Mr. Brynmor Jones.)
  Question proposed, "That the words 'Local Government Board' stand part of the Clause.'"
  MR. HERBERT LEWISsupported the Amendment, for the reason that very often the inspectors sent down by the Board of Education were able to give most valuable advice to the local education authorities as to the best methods of spending their money.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that would not be affected. It was not intended to affect the utility of the Board of Education in regard to the giving of advice.
  MR. HERBERT LEWISsaid that if the Amendment were adopted the inspectors of the Board of Education would necessarily come into contact with the local education authorities more than otherwise would be the case. Surely it was one of the objects of the Act to get as much value educationally as they could for their money.
  DR. MACNAMARAsaid he was placed in a great difficulty by this Amendment. Theoretically, the argument was all in favour of the Board of Education, and every argument was against the Local Government Board. But the Local Government Board took a common sense view of proposals submitted to them, and did not take such a "one-eyed" view as was taken by some of the inspectors of the Board of Education, whose inspectors usually were ex-Army men, who knew nothing about education, generally speaking. He thought that the Local Government Board would only refuse under extreme provocation. He had had a painful and varied experience of the Board of Education as a member of the School Board for London. It was difficult to get the Board of Education to write a sensible letter. When they did write, it took them a long time to do so, and half-a-dozen other letters were required to interpret the first one. As far as the present Board of Education were concerned, he personally would not trust anything to them in any circumstances. He knew he ought not to base an argument upon that, because Boards of Administration passed away. But the Vice-President would not pass away; he was a permanent institution so long as the present Government existed, and if he liked to stick to his office he might possibly be the Vice-President of the Board of Education under a Liberal Government.
  SIR JOHN GORST: I am the last "Vice President of the Committee of Council." There will never be another.
  DR. MACNAMARAsaid that every member of the Committee would hope that the period of occupancy of the last "Vice Presidency of the Committee of Council" might be a very long one; but he could not contemplate with equanimity the handing over of these great matters to the Board of Education or its Parliamentary head. He would rather trust the Local Government Board, and he thought they would do well to close with the Government on this matter.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEthought it was most extraordinary that education should
  370
  be handed over to a body to which it did not belong. If that were to be done, why not hand it over to the War Office or the Board of Admiralty? The hon. Gentleman's eulogy of the Local Government Board was irrelevant. Why should they set up the Local Government Board, which knew nothing about these matters, as a Court of Appeal over the Board of Education, which presumably did know something about them? The only question before the Committee was whether they should give an inferior Government Department the power of overruling a superior Government Department. It was a new principle, indeed. Of course, if the Board of Education was not efficient it must be reformed. At the present time its functions were handed over to the First Lord of the Treasury, but there ought to be an end to that sort of thing. If that principle were extended, in times to come there would be no public Department at all which was responsible to the House of Commons. They ought to stick to the Board of Education, and not place an inferior Department over it.
  MR. GODDARDsaid, so far as he could see, there was one practical difficulty, which he would state to the Committee. These matters would involve an inquiry by the Local Government Board whenever County Councils wanted to raise a rate. Now, the County Councils all over the country strnck their rates about the same time of the year, and all these inquiries would, therefore, come all at once. The Local Government Board was a very congested Department, and there were already great delays, and there would, in all probability, be still greater delays with regard to these inquiries. Would there not, under those circumstances, be great difficulties in getting a decision with regard to this matter? It was very important that there should be no delay.
  MR. SAMUELEVANSsaid, before the Committee could properly decide on this question it was essential that they should know what was the basis on which the Local Government Board was to act. They were told that the decisions of the County Councils were only to have effect with the consent of the Local Government Board, but on what ground? What were the inspectors to inquire about Were they to have regard to the state of education in

  371
  a particular county, or whether the locality was able to bear the burden proposed to be cast upon it? Unless they were told what the Local Government Board was going to do, what its functions were to be, he should vote for the Education Department. Something had been said about the right hon. Gentleman's remaining Vice-President for ever. He had some sympathy with that, because; seeing what a thorn he was in the side of the present Government, he could hardly conceive what he would be in the side of a Liberal Government. If the Local Government Board was only to inquire, into the financial ability of the local authority, they should be told so plainly.
  MR HELMEasked whether, assuming the Local Government Board had given its consent to an increase in the rate asked for by a County Council beyond the 2d., would that permission be continued so long as the rate remained at that figure, because it appeared to him it might, with the effluxion of time, be necessary to come again and again.
  SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid he had listened all the afternoon to the debate, and had not been able to understand the form of procedure which the Government had in their mind. Did the right hon. Gentleman mean that there was to be a local inquiry at all? and, if there was to be such an inquiry, was it to be by the general inspectors of the Local Government Board, or by others? He thought the Committee really ought to know what line the Government were taking. The Provisional Order system was a
  thoroughly understood matter, but that system had now gone, and the Committee were now in the dark as to what the Government intended.
  MR. WALTER LONGsaid he thought the procedure was perfectly simple. There was already provision made, under the Act of 1888 and other Acts of Parliament, by which County Councils, if they desired to extend the rating powers, could apply to the Local Government Board. That was what was to be done now, and practically there was no other question at all. Whether there would be a local inquiry would obviously depend upon the circumstances under which the Local Government Board was approached. The whole object of the inquiry was, not to acquire special information, but to give an opportunity for the parties to lay the facts before the inspector on the spot.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: And the inspector has to report on financial matters?
  MR. WALTER LONG: Yes.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: And not on educational matters?
  MR. WALTER LONG: No; if the inspector was not one of the general inspectors they would get assistance from outside.
  (7.13.) Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 261; Noes, 146. (Division List No. 253.)

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Penn, John

  Colomb, SirJohnCharlesReady

  Heath, James (Staffords. N. W

  Percy, Earl

  Colston, Clas. Elw. H. Athole

  Helder, Augustus

  Plerpoint, Robert

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Henderson, Alexander

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow

  Hermon Hodge, RobertTrotter

  Powell Sir Francis Sharp

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Cranborno, Viscount

  Hobhouse, Henry(Somerset, E.

  Purvis, Robert

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Pym, C Guy

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton

  Hope, J. F(Sheffield, Brightside

  Randles, John S.

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Rankin, Sir James

  Houldsworth, Sir Win. Henry

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Hoult, Joseph

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Dewar, T. R.)T'rH'ml'ts, S. Geo.

  Howard, John(Kent, Faversh'm

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Howard J. (Midd., Tottenham

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Hozier, Hon. JamesHenryCecil

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Hudson, (George Bickersteth

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R)

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Dixon-Hartland, SirFr'dDixon

  Dorington. Sir John Edward

  Jebb, SirRiechard Claverhouse

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Jessel, CaptainHerbertMerton

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Doxford, SirWilliamTheodore

  Johnston, William (Belfast)

  Round, James

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Keswick, William

  Russell, T. W.

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. SirWilliamHart

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Rutherford, John

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tafton

  Lambton, Hn. Frederick Wm.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Laurie, Lient General

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Eills, John Edward

  Lecky, Rt. Hn. WilliamEdw. H.

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Lee, ArthurH.(Hants, Faieham

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Fergusson, RtHn. SirJ.(Manc'r

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Seton-Karr, Henry

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Finch, George H.

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesh'm

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S.

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Firbank, Joseph Thomas

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Smith, JamesParker(Lanarks.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand

  Fison, Frederick William

  Lucas, Col. Francis(Lowestoft)

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  FitzGerald, Sir RobertPenrose-

  Lyttelton, Hun. Alfred

  Stewart, SirMarkJ. M'Taggart

  Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Flannery, Sir Fortescne

  Macartney, RtHnW. G. Ellison

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Macdoia, John Cumming

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Flower, Erne-t

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (OxfdUniv

  Foster, Sir Michael (Lond. Univ

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Foster, PhilipS.(W'rwick, S. W

  M'Iver, SirLewis(Edinburgh W

  Thornton, Percy M.

  M'Killop, James(Stirlingshire

  Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Tufnell, Licut.-Col. Edward

  Gardner, Ernest

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Godson, Sir AugustnsFrederick

  Maxwell, W. J. H(D'mfri'sshire

  Valentia, Viscount

  Gordon, Hn. J. E.(Elgin&Nairn

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Vincent, Col. SirC. E. H(Sh'fh'ld

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry. S,)

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir II. M.

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Gore, HnG. R. C. Ormsby-)Salop

  Middlemore, Jno. Throgmorton

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Line.

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Milner, Kt. Hn. SirFrederickG.

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Milvain, Thomas

  Welby, SirCharlesG. E (Notts.

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset

  Grant, Corrie

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Green, WalfordD.(Wednesb'ry

  More, Robt. Jasper(Shropshire

  Wilson, A. Stanley(York, E. R.

  Greene, SirEW(B'rySEdmurds

  Morton, ArthurH. A.(Deptford

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury

  Mount, William Arthur

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Muntz, Philip A.

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Murray. RtHn A. Graham(Bute

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hon. E. R.(Bath

  Gunter, Sir Robert

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry

  Wood, James

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath

  Worsley-Taylor, HenryWilson

  Hain, Edward

  Myers, William Henry

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon George

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Newdigate, Francis Alexander

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Hamilton, Marq. of(L'nd'nd'r'y

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'rd

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Pease, HerbertPike(Darlingt'n

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Peel. HnWm. RobertWellesley

  Sir William Walrond and

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Mr. Anstruther.

  374

  375

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

  Harwood, George

  O'Kelly, James(Roscommon, N

  Ambrose, Robert

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Asher, Alexander

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. CharlesSeale-

  Partington, Oswald

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Havter, Rt. Hon. SirArthurD.

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. HerbertHenry

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Perks, Robert William

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. CharlesH.

  Priestley, Arthur

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Rea, Russell

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Reddy, M.

  Black, Alexander William

  Hutton, Alfred K. (Morley)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford

  Boland, John

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Jones, William (Carnarv'nshire

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie(Dumtries

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh

  Joyce, Michael

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Kitson, Sir James

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Lambert, George

  Runciman, Walter

  Burt, Thomas

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Leamy, Edmund

  Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh

  Caldwell, James

  Leese, SirJosephF.(Accrington

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Cameron, Robert

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Leng, Sir John

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Lloyd-George, David

  Sullivan, Donal

  Cawley, Frederick

  Lough, Tnomas

  Tennant, Harold John

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Lundon, W.

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E

  Crombie, John William

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Thomas, JA(Glamorg'n, Gower

  Delany, William

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  M'Crae, George

  Toulmin, George

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  M'Kean, John

  Tully, Jasper

  Donelan, Capt. A.

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Ure, Alexander

  Doogan, P. C.

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Wallace, Robert

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Walton, JohnLawson(Leeds, S.

  Dunn, Sir William

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Edwards, Frank

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire

  Wason, Eugene(Clackmannan

  Elibank, Master of

  Morley, Rt. Hn. John(Montrose

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Murphy, John

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.

  Norman, Henry

  Wilson, Chas. Henry (Hull, W

  Fuller J. M. F.

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

  Woodhouse, SirJ. T(Huddersf'd

  Gladstone, RtHn. HerbertJohn

  O'Brien, Kendal(TipperaryMid

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  O'Connor, T. P (Liverpool)

  Mr. Brynmor Jones and

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  O'Dowd, John

  Mr. Trevelyan.

  MR. HELME, in order that the intention of the Government, as expressed by the First Lord and the President of the Local Government Board, should be so defined that there could be no mistake about it in future, moved the insertion of the words "having regard to financial considerations only." That would relieve the Local Government Board from the necessity of going into the details of the educational needs of the county. They would have the opportunity of conferring with, and having the benefit of the opinion of the Board of Education, who, being in constant touch with the county authorities,
  376
  would know all about the work which required to be done. If the inquiry was to be general, the practical working of the scheme would be almost hopeless. There was not the time after the Budget was framed, and in a great county like Lancashire, with so wide an area, it was undesirable that the Local Government Board should send its representatives throughout the length of the county, in order to inform itself as to the necessity of any portion of the scheme. He hoped the consent of the Board would be restricted to financial considerations only, and that the carefully ascertained wish of a great public

  377
  authority such as the County Council would be respected. He, therefore, hoped the Government would accept the Amendment.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page I, line 27, after the word 'Board,' to insert the words 'having regard to financial considerations only.'"—(Mr. Helme.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  It being half-past Seven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
  Committee report progress; to sit again this evening.

EVENING SITTING.

  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Clause 2:—
  Amendment again proposed—
  "In page 1, line 27, after the word Board,' to insert the words 'having regard to financial considerations only.'"—(Mr. Helme.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  SIR JOSEPH LEESEsaid he welcomed the statement of the First Lord and of the President of the Local Government Board that the functions of the Local Government Board in this matter were to be financial only. By the words which were sought to be inserted in the clause, they desired to ear-mark that function. It was common knowledge that inspectors of the Local Government Board were experts in ascertaining the financial position of County Councils and local authorities generally, for such investigations formed part of their daily work. But an inquiry into the educational needs of a district would be entirely outside the experience of the Local Government Board. If a County Council were to attempt to borrow more than it was justified under the circumstances, he could understand the Local Government Board stepping in
  378
  to save financial trouble. In that case it could act as a salutary check. The only object of the Amendment was to limit the interference of the Local Government Board to financial questions.
  MR. WALTER LONGsaid the hon. Member who had just spoken, as well as the mover of the Amendment, had not incorrectly described the position of the Government in regard to the inquiries which it was proposed that the Local Government Board should hold under this clause. At the same time, the suggestion they made that the duty of the Local Government Board should be limited by statute went a little further than the declarations of the Government; and, so far as he knew, there was no precedent for limiting by statute the duty of a Government Department when it was called on to hold an inquiry. He had been very much interested in that debate. He had had a great many years experience at the Local Government Board: he had the good fortune to be there for six years under a previous Government, and he knew how difficult it was to deal with public opinion, whether expressed in the House or outside. It depended entirely on whether they were debating a question on theory or on practice. But let him take an extreme case by way of illustration. Suppose a County Council had spent 1½d. out of its 2d. rate, and came forward with an application for power to levy an additional 1½d. rate. Did the Amendment mean that the inspector of the Local Government Board was to be forbidden by statute to ask what were the objects which the County Council had in view in making that somewhat extreme proposal? He was really asking for information. He did not think there was any difference of principle between the two sides of the House. All were agreed that no Government Department should put any restrictive or red-tape Amendments in the way of a County Council; but did they also desire that in the case of a County Council making a very wild and extravagant proposal there should be no power whatever for the inspector of the Local Government Board to inquire not only into the financial position of the county, but also as to the educational proposal? If the

  379
  Amendment were accepted in its present form, it seemed to him that the Local Government Board would be precluded altogether from making any such inquiry. It had been suggested very frequently in the course of the debate that the Local Government Board, as a Department, had no knowledge of educational progress and educational requirements. That was true. But it was also perfectly well known to every Member of the House who had had any experience of Government Departments that where one Department was called upon to make an inquiry into a demand made by a local authority affecting the administration of another Department, it was the invariable practice to ask that Department for its observations and suggestions on the demand. After all, supposing the demand was a reasonable one—supposing it was an ordinary case where a local authority had reached its maximum, or would exceed it if it indulged in necessary and desirable expenditure, the facts to be inquired into would be of the simplest kind, and a local inquiry would hardly be necessary. In nine cases out of ten, probably, the local inquiry would be unnecessary; but, if the proposed expenditure were altogether unnecessary, or the financial position of the locality were too weak to bear the additional expenditure, would it be wise to make it impossible for the inspector of the Local Government Board to inquire into the objects of the expenditure and to ascertain what were the educational objects in view? Speaking with some experience of the Local Government Board in regard to these inquiries, he would suggest that these limitations were more likely to defeat the end in view than to secure it. Let the Committee realise what the Amendment proposed to do. It proposed to make it impossible for the Government inspector to examine into any educational question at all. So far as the educational provisions of the district were concerned,

  AYES.

  Abraham, William(Cork, N. E.

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Allan, William (Gateshead)

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh

  Delany, William

  Ambrose, Robert

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Doogan, P. C.

  Black, Alexander William

  Caldwell, James

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Boland, John

  Cameron, Robert

  Edwards, Frank

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.

  Emmott, Alfred

  Brigg, John

  Cawley, Frederick

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  the necessary information would be obtained from the Education Department. But take the case he had already cited—that of a local authority which had spent three-fourths of its rates and wished to launch upon a very extravagant scheme, involving enormous expenditure on the erection of buildings and the maintenance of a system of education altogether, perhaps, beyond the needs of the neighbourhood. Was no question to be asked at all by the inspector as to what was being done in the neighbourhood? If the Amendment were carried in its present form it would necessitate the holding of a second inquiry, by some other Department. That would involve delay; whereas he understood hon. Gentlemen desired that there should be promptitude, and as little delay as possible. If the education authority of the County Council represented only a very small majority of the county, and there was a large body of outsiders in favour of a very progressive policy, were they to impose on the ratepayers of the district a burden which might last for forty or fifty years without any inquiry as to whether the educational needs of the district justified the expense? He put this to the Committee in order to obtain an expression of opinion. He knew that difficulties had arisen owing to the limitations imposed on their powers of holding inquiry. Believing as he did that there would be every desire on the part of the Local Government Board to further educational progress, and that the imposition of restrictions was rather dangerous, he would ask the Committee to consider very carefully whether the adoption of the Amendment would not be injurious to the interests they had in view.
  (9.13.) Question put.
  The Committee divided—Ayes, 90; Noes, 105. (Division List No. 254.)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Foater, SirMichael(Lond. Univ

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eition)

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

  Grant, Corrie

  M'Crae, George

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  M'Kean, John

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Mansfield, Hordes Rendall

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. CharlesSeale-

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Holland, William Henry

  Mooney, John J.

  Sullivan, Donal

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Murphy, John

  Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Toulmin, George

  Humphrey,-Owen, Arthur C.

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Ure, Alexander

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Jones, DavidBrynmor(Sw'nsea

  O'Brien, Kendall Tipp'raryMid

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Jones, William(Carnarv'nshire

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Jordon, Jeremiah

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  O'Dowd, John

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Lambert, George

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Leese, SirJosephF.(Accrington

  Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden

  Leug, Sir John

  Perks, Robert William

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Rea, Russell

  Mr. Helme and Mr.

  Lloyd-George, David

  Reddy, M.

  Charles Morley.

  Lundon, W.

  Redmond, John E.(Waterford

  NOES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. SirAlex. F.

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Fellowes, Hon. AilwynEdward

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Purvis, Robert

  Austin, Sir John

  Firbank, Joseph Thomas

  Rankin, Sir James

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J.(Manch'r

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Balfour, RtHnGeraldW.(Leeds

  Flower, Ernest

  Ridley, S. Forde(Bethnal Green

  Balfour, Kenneth R.(Christch.

  Gardner, Ernest

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Gordon, Hn. J. E.(Elgin&Nairn

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Beach, RtHnSirMichael Hicks

  Gorsf, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Bigwood, James

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Hanbury, RtHon. Robert Wm.

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Bond, Edward

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B.(IsleofWight

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Hope, J. F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Bull, William James

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

  Stewart, Sir MarkJ. M'Taggart

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbyshire

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Stroyan, John

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J.(Birm.

  Johnston, William (Belfast)

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Chamberlain, J. Austen(Worc'r

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W.(Salop

  Tomlinson, Wm. Ed w. Murray

  Chapman, Edward

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Valentia, Viscount

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Wentworth, BruceC. Vernon-

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S.

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Cubitt, Hon Henry

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  M'Iver, SirLewis(EdinburghW

  Denny, Colonel

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Dewar, T. R(T'rH'mlets, S. Geo.

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Middlemore, Jno. Throgmorton

  Sir William Walrond and

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  More, Robt. Jasper(Shropshire

  Mr. Anstruther.

  Doxford, SirWilliamTheodore

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry

  The CHAIRMANsaid he must rule that the Amendment of the hon. Member for Anglesey should come up as a new clause, and that of the hon. Member
  382
  for Spalding was outside the scope of the Bill.
  MR. BRYCE: Would it not be possible to move it as an Amendment to Clause 3?
  THE CHAIRMAN: I understand the lion. Member does not wish to do the. To meet his views it would be necessary to propose the Amendment to both Clauses 2 and 3, and it would, therefore, be much simpler to put the words in a simpler clause. The Amendment of the hon. Member for North Camber well has been disposed of by the decision of the House on Clause 1.
  DR. MACNAMARA: May I point out the fact that Clause 5 of the Bill provides that, if a local authority desires, it may agree not to undertake the control of elementary education, in which case the School Board is not wiped out; it will continue to act. I desire that in that case the School Board and the municipal authority shall together form a Committee for the purposes of higher education.
  THE CHAIRMAN: I understood that perfectly. But Clause I has already constituted the authority for higher education, and the hon. Member is now really proposing to negative what has been done in Clause 1. His proposal is contrary to what has been decided. The hon. Member is proposing to add something more. He is proposing that certain other education authorities should be constituted the authority for higher education. His proposition is that—
  "In any case where the School Board remains, after the passing of this Act, the local authority for elementary education, it shall be the duty of the School Board and the municipal council to form a joint Committee of members of both bodies to act as the local authority for higher education under this Act."
  The Committee has already decided upon the authority for higher education.
  DR. MACNAMARAasked whether, in the event of a local authority not agreeing to become the authority for elementary education, he should be in order in proposing that in such a case the Committee should be compelled to co-opt the members of the existing School Board.
  THE CHAIRMAN: That is not the Amendment on the Paper. The Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for North Islington is also out
  384
  of order, because it is covered by the words "shall consider the needs of education." It seems quite clear that no local authority can consider the needs of education without considering what appliances are already in existence. The next two Amendments standing in the name of the hon. Member for East Northamptonshire are out of order, and can only be moved as new clauses.
  MR. CHANNING: Would the first Amendment be in order moved as an Amendment to Clause 4?
  THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Members Amendment deals with competitive examination, and I do not think that that is quite the same thing as religious instruction. The Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Baronet the Member for Wigan is also out of order, and the same remark applies to the Amendments standing in the names of the hon. Member for the Otley Division, the hon. Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool, and the hon. Member for Lancaster. The next Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for East Northamptonshire is out of order, because it is disposed of by the words, introduced at the beginning of Clause 2, "shall take steps." The Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Ludlow is out of order, because it is really an Amendment to the Local Taxation Act, which is outside the scope of this Bill. The Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for East Somerset ought to come as a new clause, and the other Amendments standing on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member for the Rugby Division are also out of order. As this disposes of the whole of the Amendments, the question I have to put now is, "That Clause 2, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
  DR. MACNAMARAasked whether he would be in order in proposing that where a School Board remained the authority for education it should he their duty to co-opt for the purposes of higher education the members of the School Board for that area?
  THE CHAIRMAN: As far as I have been able to gather, the proposal of the

  385
  hon. Member is one constituting another authority for higher education, and therefore it is out of order.
  MR. BRYCE: Is it not a fact that inasmuch as Clause 5 still stands in the Bill we are obliged to assume that Clause 5 will remain in the Bill? That is contemplated in this Amendment. Therefore, will the case not arise which has been raised by my hon. friend, and will his Amendment not be in order in dealing with the Bill at it now stands?
  SIR JOHN GORST: Supposing that is so, would this Amendment not apply more properly to Clause 12, which deals with the constitution of Education Committees? I think it would be in order there.
  THE CHAIRMAN: I have assumed all through that Clause 5 stands. The objection I have taken to the Amendment suggested by the hon. Member for North Camberwell is that in Clause 2 he is really constituting another authority, whereas the authority for that purpose has been constituted by Clause 1. All I say is that his proposal is in the wrong place.
  DR. MACNAMARAsaid that in the Amendment that he had handed in he did not propose a new authority at all, but he simply asked that where the School Board remained the authority for elementary education the local Education Committee should co-opt certain members of the School Board, and that proposal did not constitute a new authority at all.
  MR. BRYCEpointed out that the Amendment of his hon. friend related to secondary education, whereas Clause 12 dealt only with elementary education.
  THE CHAIRMAN: Clause 12 is general. It is clear that when the Education Committees are constituted that will be the proper place to consider this Amendment. The proposal is that the local authority is to co-opt certain persons to serve on the Education Committee, whereas this clause is only concerned with the constitution of the authority. Clearly such a proposal is out of place in Clause 2.
  Motion made and Question proposed, "That Clause 2, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he had sat throughout the whole of the discussion upon Clause 2, and he was glad that the First Lord of the Treasury had found it unnecessary to apply the closure once, which showed that in the judgment of the right hon. Gentleman the discussion of this clause had not exceeded the limits of fair Parliamentary debate. This result was entirely due in his opinion to the fact that the Government had made some substantial concessions. He thought the Opposition would always be found willing to meet the Government when they were disposed to treat educational matters in this way. On the other hand, if the Government proceeded to discuss this question from the point of view as to how it would affect the noble Lord the Member for Greenwich, the clerical party, and those Members representing agricultural districts, who did not care whether this was made a good Education Bill or not, they would not get as much work out of the Committee as they otherwise would. There was really nothing very controversial on the first clause, because the reactionaries amongst hon. Members opposite threw in their lot with the others, but the Government refused to make any concessions to the Opposition and consequently the debate was prolonged. When they succeeded in obtaining a substantial concession, of course the debate was very much shortened.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: That has not been so tonight.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid the matters they had discussed upon Clause 2 were very important, and considerably more time might reasonably have been taken in discussing such matters as the Provisional Orders, whether the rate should go up to 4d., and other questions upon which the whole future success depended. He ventured to say that there was not one of those Amendments which might not well have taken the whole afternoon to discuss. There was nothing disarmed opposition like concessions, and he hoped the way in which the First Lord of the Treasury had conducted this clause through the Committee would serve as a precedent when they came to the more controversial clauses later on. He thought they all wanted to make this a

  387
  good Education Bill, and if they were met in a fair spirit in regard to the sectarian feature of the measure he did not despair that they would be able to find a satisfactory compromise. There were Members of the Opposition who rather resented the way in which a few hon. Members opposite arrogated to themselves the right to speak, not only on behalf of the whole of the Party opposite but also on behalf of the Church of England.
  THE CHAIRMAN: I think that is going rather beyond the scope of the questions raised in this clause.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid the First Lord of the Treasury had met them very fairly upon this particular clause and before this Bill was out of the clutches of the House of Commons he did not despair that the right hon. Gentleman would still make the provision for secondary education a purely compulsory matter. He did not despair, either, of the right hon. Gentleman being able to meet them upon the question of equivalent grant. The Clause looked all right, and it said "it shall be duty," but then there followed words which limited that duty. There were many counties in England where the rating question pressed very heavily, as it did in Essex, upon the farmers and tradesmen, where this Act would not be put into operation unless there was a strong inducement offered by pressure from some Government Department, or else in the shape of a pecuniary financial consideration. If the ratepayers of such a county knew that they would get a certain amount of money spent in their own county by spending a certain amount of their own money, he thought that would induce them to bear a little extra burden and make some sacrifice in order to obtain it. He hoped the First Lord of the Treasury would be able to consider, at any rate, the alternative suggestion of a grant, or something more than a consultation. From what he could hear on all hands there was not the same zeal for education in England as existed in Ireland, Scotland, and Wales. After all, the Government could deal with that difficulty, because there was a sense of duty in Englishmen which, if the Government showed the
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  way to the County Councils, would be quite sufficient to overcome that difficulty. If the Education Department were authorised not to dictate to the County Councils but to bring certain pressure to bear upon them to consider the subject thoroughly, he believed that Englishmen would do their work honestly and faithfully. There was always a certain amount of respect paid to obeying the law of the land and carrying out the directions from the central authority. Why did the First Lord of the Treasury not make use of this disposition in the temperament of the English mind for exciting some sort of interest in education, and inducing these County Councils to do their duty. He had only one other observation to make. Once more he wished to emphasise the obvious fact, which had been established during the whole course of the discussion upon the second clause, that the Government had gained in time and in the temper of the House, and the Bill itself had gained by concessions which had been made. The result had been that everybody had honestly and sincerely applied themselves to the consideration of this question from a purely educational point of view, because the Government had shown that they were willing to make this a proper and efficient education debate.
  MR. HENKY HOBHOUSEwelcomed the spirit of the speech just delivered by the hon. Member for Carnarvon as a good omen for the future conduct of the debate upon this Bill. He did not think this occasion should be allowed to pass without some one on the Ministerial side acknowledging the very considerate spirit in which the Government had met the Amendment on this particular clause. He was glad to think now that this clause had been amended—that it foreshadowed an outline of something like a system of higher education. The local authorities would now be obliged to do something, and consider the needs of their district, and the Board of Education would be able to take such steps as they considered desirable towards certain very important objects, including the training of teachers, and the co-ordination of all forms of education. When they added to all these things the fact that the whisky money had

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  now been definitely allocated to the cause of education, all those who were interested in higher education might well congratulate themselves upon having obtained such concessions. Generally, he thought they might have some confidence in the future action of English County Councils, which he did not believe were inferior to Welsh County Councils, as some hon. Gentlemen opposite asked them to believe. The Welsh counties had had great advantages over the English counties, because they had possessed an Education Act for a long time.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEpointed out that that Welsh Members, throughout the whole of this discussion had stood up for the English counties.
  MR. HENRY HOBHOUSEsaid he was glad to hear the hon. Member for Carnarvon give them some encouragement, and, when they had got in England a good Intermediate Education Act, they would endeavour to follow the excellent example which had been set in Wales. But there wore still some defects, and he should have wished to sec some provision inserted for the guidance of County Councils, similar to that in the Technical Instruction Acts. There were some important questions, which although under the ruling given by the Chairman, could not be considered now, must eventually be considered carefully by the Government before the Bill passed into law. He hoped that before the Bill became law, they would have in it a real system, under which the local authorities would be able to do good work for many years to come, in providing higher instruction.
  DR. MACNAMARAagreed that the Government had treated the Opposition very handsomely in connection with this clause. The clause as it stood definitely laid on the local authorities the duty of considering the needs of secondary education; it definitely said that they must consult the Board of Education as to how they were to be met; and it specifically mentioned that the local authorities must make provision for the training of teachers. All these were admirable so far as they went, but he could have wished that the veto of the central authority on the rating expenditure of the
  390
  local authority had been struck out. On that matter he still stood quite unrepentant. He did not know what Parliament had to do with the expendidure which local authorities desired to impose on their ratepayers. He entirely agreed with what the Vice President of the Council said in 1897 when the School Board Act was under discussion, namely, that the persons to decide how much should be laid on the locality were the ratepayers who sent the representatives to the public authority imposing the rate. That opinion was expressed by the right hon. Gentleman when they were discussing an Amendment proposed by the noble Lord the Member for Rochester and supported by the noble Lord the Member for Greenwich, that no School Board should participate in the new special aid grant which raised its rate beyond that of the previous year, and that it should not have the right to raise the rate beyond that of the previous year without the sanction of the Board of Education. He hoped the Government would yet remove the veto, and leave local authorities free to levy whatever rate they thought proper on their own ratepayers for this or any other matter.
  SIR JAMES RANKINasked for an authoritative definition of the words "other than elementary"; and he wanted to know whether or not the Technical Instruction Committee would be enabled to teach subjects on the elementary list. Under the Act of 1899, as was perfectly well known, Technical Instruction Committees were prevented from teaching children in the elementary schools. That, he understood, was to be done away with by the total repeal of the Act of 1889. It had often appeared to him that the Technical Instruction Committee might usefully provide for the teaching of many subjects to the elder children in the elementary schools.
  MR. BRYCEgladly joined with his hon. friend the. Member for North Camberwell in acknowledging that the Bill had been considerably improved by the Amendments, and that the right hon. Gentleman, in receiving the suggestions which had been made

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  to him, had shown a conciliatory spirit. But, regarded as a scheme of secondary education, this clause, as the outcome of the meditations of the Government for seven years, was still inadequate. He did not say that the clause was a blank cheque to the County Councils, because a cheque was the very thing which it did not give. It told the County Councils to do what they thought best for secondary education. If they were all like the County Councils of the West Riding of Yorkshire and Wiltshire, they might, with some confidence, leave these wide powers to them with few or no indications of the will of Parliament. There were about sixty Administrative Councils in England and Wales, and a very large number of County Boroughs. All these authorities would have to constitute themselves educational authorities, and work out a very difficult and complicated problem connected with the supply of secondary education. Were they competent to deal with this great problem? He thought it would have been better if the Committee had devoted a longer time in the endeavour to work out a better scheme, instead of giving extremely few directions to those authorities. They were now discussing the most uncontroversial point in this Bill. There had been little or nothing of Party spirit in the discussion of the clause, and if hon. Members were divided, it was quite apart from considerations of Party ties. They had given exceeedingly few directions to those authorities. The best authorities would not want them, but the backward authorities would want them. The Committee had not imposed in a specific way the absolute duty of providing secondary education on the authorities. In his judgment it would have strengthened the hands of the Department if the Committee had imposed it as an imperative duty. If they had done so, it was not likely that any cases would have arisen in which the Board of Education would have had to resort to compulsory powers. The mere fact than a positive direction was embodied in the Act would have been enough to stimulate the most laggard of the local authorities. He asked the Committee to consider how many points there were on which directions were wanted, and on which they had given no direction. No direction had been
  392
  given, for example, on the question of endowments. Among many other points on which directions might be given to the new authorities was that of the education of girls, which hitherto had been greatly neglected. Clearly, it ought to be the duty of the new authorities to make some provision for the education of girls, and wherever possible to apply endowments to the case of girls as well as boys. Scholarships and exhibitions ought to be provided, and a direction to that effect would have been a very proper one to insert in the Bill. Again, there was no direction in the Bill with regard to the inspection that the local authority ought to give. It was true that there were matters upon which the Board of Education might make representations to the local authorities, but, the local authorities would give more attention to such representations if the weight of Parliamentary opinion was found within the four corners of the Bill. While much had been done, and would be done, to improve education in towns and populous districts, a real danger was that the Councils would neglect the rural districts; and therefore he felt most anxious that they should, before parting with the Bill, go more thoroughly into the rural problem than they had yet done, and indicate to the local authorities some of the ways in which it might be dealt with. He was sure he might say that the Government would meet with no Party opposition whatever in any attempt they might make to develop and enlarge the scope of the secondary education part of the Bill.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: My hon. friend the Member for the Leominster Division put a question to me which it is only courteous that I should answer. I do not think he need be in any way alarmed lest the class of education he is contemplating should he excluded by this clause from the operation of the Bill. The discussion of that will come more appropriately under the definition clause of the Bill, and perhaps for the present he will be content with that assurance on my part. The right hon. Gentleman made a very long speech, not as to what Clause 2 was, but what it ought to be—and in regard to clauses

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  which were not on the Paper and which, under the circumstances, no self-respecting draftsman would have put into the Bill.
  MR. BRYCEsaid that his remarks were in the direction that the Amendments ought to be moved on this clause; or that new clauses should be moved by the Government at a later stage.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that most respectfully he could not, for the life of him, see in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman anything that was relevant to the particular question under discussion, viz., that this clause should stand part of the Bill As far as he understood the right hon. Gentleman he wholly differed from him as to the method of dealing with secondary education. They were agreed that secondary education was an extremely difficult and complex problem. They were agreed that the greatest authorities in this country, in Germany, France, Scandanavia, Italy, and America, had studied this question of secondary education and had not come to any agreement in regard to it.
  MR. BRYCEsaid they were absolutely agreed on many points.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that his information, for what it was worth, went in the direction of showing that there were great doubts in all these countries as to the exact lines on which the settlement of this question should go. If the right hon. Gentleman took up a more dogmatic line, then he could not go with him. The Government did not look at the question in the same way in which the right hon. Gentleman did, that was to say in extending fixed Regulations to all the local authorities. They perfectly recognised, in dealing with the great variety of local authorities which existed in England, all animated by a high ideal of public spirit, and, perhaps, taking a different view of education, that some of these local authorities would come to the fore front in the race, and that some of them would be laggards. They did not expect that there would be a uniform spreading of secondary education in England. They thought that
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  the best results would be derived from trying local effort, so that it might meet the educational needs of each particular locality. He hoped that when they came to the portion of the Bill which was more controversial than secondary education, something of the calm spirit which had hitherto been maintained would not be altogether wanting.
  MR. LAMBERTsaid he congratulated the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury on the spirit of conciliation he had shown; but he thought he had unjustly charged his right hon. friend the Member for South Aberdeen, because not a single subject which that right hon. Gentleman had mentioned was not comprised in the words of the clause. He wished to impress strongly on the Government that unless they did something in the direction indicated by the hon. and learned Member for Stratford, the clause would be perfectly nugatory. He had had the opportunity the other day of consulting the County Council of Devonshire, and had been told that it was impossible to suppose that the County Councils were going to rate themselves for secondary education in addition to the elementary rates which were imposed upon them. He would suggest to the Government that before coming to the Report Stage they should endeavour to adopt the principle followed in the Welsh Intermediate Act and give some encouragement to the County Councils. They wanted to see secondary education placed on a sound basis, but they could not do that unless money was spent upon it, and at least half of that money ought to come from the Imperial Exchequer. The Vice President of the Council had told them that they might learn lessons from Denmark, France, and other countries in the matter of technical education, but in all these countries funds were provided by their Governments for the encouragement of secondary education. No one had any idea of how the rates in the country districts were going up, and he felt convinced that they could not expect the County Councils to rate themselves for secondary education unless they got assistance from the Treasury.
  MR. ERNEST GRAYsaid that before this clause was voted upon he would ask the Government earnestly to re-consider their decision in regard to imposing this limit on the rate for higher education on County Councils. It would be most ungrateful not to recognise the concession which the Government had made, or use it as an argument against them. Why should the County Councils not have the same liberty as was given to administrative counties like the West Riding of Yorkshire? There could be no doubt that in some districts there would be a danger, which had been pointed out by the hon. Member for the Leominster Division, as to the definition of what was and was not elementary education. He ventured to say that it would puzzle the ingenuity of man to provide a comprehensive definition of elementary education. No one had ever been able to draw the line between higher education and elementary education; and if the County Councils were not to go beyond the 2d. rate without the consent of the Local Government Board he foresaw a repetition all over the country of Cockerton judgments. In rural districts much of the higher education must be given in the same school and by the same teachers as the elementary education. Of course it was different in urban districts, where they could have both elementary schools and secondary schools; but how were they going to separate the accounts in the rural districts between elementary education and higher education?
  MR. YOXALLsaid that hitherto secondary education provided for by the whisky money stopped short at imparting instruction in the dead languages, which formed the main part of the curriculum of the country schools; but the second clause was deficient in providing a means of promoting commercial and technical education, to which other countries were attaching so much importance now. He hoped that some steps would be taken to prevent that danger. With regard to the 2d. rate or the 4d. rate, he would vote for it with some compunction, because he was compelled to say that he could not trust the Board of Education to draw the line; and he very much regretted that the Committee had not laid down the injunction that the money which had hitherto been
  396
  spent on modern types of schools should not in future be diverted to le s useful types. He hoped that ultimately the Bill would be a very much better measure than they had reason to expect; and he had very great hope for the future of the measure if the spirit which had recently animated its discussion continued to prevail.
  MR. ALFRED HUTTONsaid he wished to ask whether the grants to be made by the Exchequer would be given to the local authority or to the schools direct. The Vice President of the Council had stated that the local authority would distribute the money for elementary education, and he wished to know whether that principle would also apply as regarded grants to secondary or higher schools. Would such grants be given to the school managers, or to the local authority?
  SIR JOHN GORSTsaid that with reference to schools which were now working in connection with the local authority, the grants would be paid to that authority, but the rights of certain pre-existing schools in direct communication with the Board of Education would be preserved.
  MR. ALFRED HUTTONsaid he was obliged to the right hon. Gentleman, but he should be glad to know whether there was any provision to that effect in the Bill. He was not aware there was anything in the Bill with reference to the rights of managers of pre-existing schools.
  SIR JOHN GORSTsaid that the Exchequer grants were not made by Act of Parliament, but by regulations issued from time to time by the Board of Education.
  MR. ALFRED HUTTONsaid he wished to know how the local authority could effect the co-ordination of existing schools if they were to be carried on under the present arrangements. The admission, if he might so call it, of the right hon. Gentleman was a very serious one indeed, as it meant that the local authority would practically have no control over the secondary education in existing schools which at the present

  397
  time received grants under any Code or Minute of the Education Department. It appeared to him that the only exception would be if the Department made an additional grant, in which case they could make further terms.
  SIR JOHN GOESTsaid he had either wholly failed to describe to the hon. Gentleman what the system was, or the hon. Gentleman had misinterpreted what he said. Nearly all the schools were in connection with, or under the control of, the local authority, but there were certain schools, only a few in number, which for a long time had been in receipt of Exchequer grants, and the right of those schools to have, if they pleased, direct communication with the Board of Education would be preserved.
  MR. ALFRED HUTTONsaid that according to the admission of the right hon. Gentleman the grants would continue to be made to the managers of those schools, and the local authority would have no say in their management. That was a matter which had not been discussed on any Amendment, and it really made a great deal of difference to the powers of the local authority for the carrying out of its new responsibilities. When the Welsh Education Act became law, he believed that in every case all the grants which were paid by the Government went through the new authority; and he thought that was a precedent which ought to be followed in the present Bill. The present proposal was that those pre-existing schools would continue to be under the supervision of the Department; whereas, all other classes of schools would be under the new authority. That was not a single authority scheme, and was certainly not a very wise proceeding, as it would engender a great deal of hostility. He thought it was unfortunate that so little had been done to give directions to the new authority. If they were to have a new departure they ought to have given some indication to the local authority as to the lines on which it would be expected to proceed. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would consider the point and would be able to present to the Committee a happier solution than that which was now offered.
  MR. HUMPHREYS-OWENsaid he hoped they would receive some further explanation from the Vice President on the subject to which his hon. friend had just referred. Under the existing arrangement, grants were made for science subjects to different schools, and in his experience such grants were paid direct to the schools, and not through the governing body.
  SIR JOHN GORSTsaid the exception was to pay the grants to the schools.
  MR. HUMPHREYS-OWENsaid he was speaking of his own experience, which was that when grants were made direct to schools it caused a considerable amount of inconvenience, and the local authority lost the opportunity of considering the needs of different schools. If the right hon. Gentleman proposed Amendments which would make it clear that the local authority, and not individual schools, was to receive those grants, they would be welcomed with great pleasure. He wished to express his regret that a better lead had not been given to the County Councils in the Bill.
  SIR JOHN BRUNNERsaid he was pleased to emphasise what had been already said with reference to the question of the equivalent grant. Praise had been bestowed on the Welsh County Councils for their excellent work, and it had been proved that the equivalent grant had been a stimulus winch had been extremely powerful in leading the County Councils to develop intermediate education. He himself had considerable experience on a small scale as to the equivalent grant being a stimulus. The County Council of Cheshire, for which he might venture to claim the title of being the model County Council of England, had at the very beginning wisely determined to give to every urban district in the county, which levied a rate under the Technical Instruction Act, an equivalent grant, from the whisky money. The result was that some five or six years ago the amount raised in the County of Cheshire under the Technical Instruction Act was 20 per cent. of all the money raised under that Act throughout England. He was very proud to say that a large part of the money was raised in his own constituency, and that last month it

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  took half of the county scholarships given to children passing from the elementary schools. If the Government would only make up their mind to act on the experience of the Welsh Act, and to give equivalent grants to English County Councils in return, as it were, for the sacrifices made by them, he believed that the result would be equally happy. The right hon. Gentleman appealed to the experience and advice of foreign countries, and he spoke of Germany, France, Italy, and Scandinavia, but in what country in the world could he find a limit set to the expenditure on education. He bitterly grieved that this country alone had set such an example. He welcomed with pleasure the concession of the right hon. Gentleman with reference to county boroughs, and he hoped that, on reflection the right hon. Gentleman would extend the privilege of deciding for themselves what the expenditure on education should be to the rural districts also. A good deal had been said already, and no doubt it sounded pleasant to Members on both sides, as to the conciliatory spirit displayed by the right hon. Gentleman during the discussion on this clause. He did not think there was any hon. Member who was better entitled to speak on the subject than he was, because he had taken very great pains to ascertain the opinion of Members in all quarters of the House, and he could say that never during the sixteen years he had had the honour of sitting in the House was there any occasion on which there was such a strong wish on both sides to make peace than there was at present. Even with reference to religious education there was a most anxious and sincere desire to do everything that could be done to lessen any sense of injustice, and to make such an arrangement as would conduce to the benefit of the children for whose welfare and future they were legislating. The right hon. Gentleman took a step during the discussion on the clause which he hoped would be repeated on many occasions. It was a happy step and the result was a pleasant one. He would warmly recommend the right hon. Gentleman to repeat it, and, as representing the Government, to leave the House freedom to express its desire for peace, and to vote without pressure of Party ties. If the right hon. Gentle-
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  man did that, he would earn not only the gratitude of the Opposition but also of the vast majority of his own supporters.
  MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid that a great number of Amendments, involving several important points with reference to secondary education, still remained to be considered; and he would appeal to the First Lord of the Treasury to consider them in the same temper and the same spirit as he had displayed in connection with the Amendments which had been disposed of. They were all agreed that the right hon. Gentleman desired to leave the County Councils a free hand in dealing with secondary education, but their object should be to utilise for the benefit of the country all that had been found valuable in the experience of the past. He did not think that very much weight should be attached to what had been done in foreign countries in the matter. This country would have to thresh it out for itself; but he would urge on the First Lord of the Treasury to take advantage of the experience they already possessed and to utilise it. His hon. friend expressed an anxious desire that as little as possible might be left to be decided in the Courts. Even lawyers did not like to see education questions in the Courts. They were unprofitable, not in the sense of fees, because briefs in education cases were marked as high as any other cases; but they opened up controversy, and were the very worst things that could happen in the interests of education. If the right hon. Gentleman would consider how far he could improve the second clause by adding to it the experience of existing machinery he would do a great deal to help the County Councils in carrying out their new duties. He would be the last to say a word against the Amendments which had been accepted; but when they considered what the second clause might have been made, and what it might have done for secondary education, it would be admitted that it was a very shadowy clause compared to what it might have been. Would it be a serious matter, for instance, to prepare a Return showing what the existing educational

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  facilities for secondary education were? That would not be an expensive matter, but it would be very helpful to the County Councils. Then again, supposing the clause had dealt with endowments throughout the country; that was also a matter in which a Government Department would be of the greatest assistance to the County Councils. There was also the question of the sanitary condition of the schools. There was a sanitary condition which would satisfy a sanitary inspector, and another sanitary condition which would satisfy an education inspector, but which would not satisfy a sanitary inspector. All these matters would be raised by new clauses, and he hoped that when they were reached they would have from the First Lord of the Treasury a statement as to the Amendments that would be accepted in order that definiteness and clearness might be given to what was now very indefinite.
  MR. JOSEPH A. PEASEsaid in his opinion the medical officer who was responsible to the County Council was the person to whom they should look to improve the sanitary condition of the schools. So far as he could judge, at any rate in his own constituency, the feeling was that the present was a great opportunity to provide for a proper system of higher education, which was the great need of the country as compared with other civilised nations which had placed no limit whatever on the amount of money to be spent on higher education. With reference to the concessions which had been made by the Government, he accepted them for what they were worth; but they left a great deficiency in the educational standard of the country as compared with other great nations. When the House was permitted to vote as it pleased on a recent Amendment, they found every Member of the Government, with the exception of the Vice President, voting against progressive legislation. That seemed to him to indicate that the Government were not prepared to advocate a progressive measure in connection with higher education; and it conveyed the idea that the authors of the Bill were more concerned to remove the strain from the voluntary schools
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  than to promote higher education. They, on that side, wanted the County Councils to have an absolutely free hand in regard to the expenditure of money on education; and did not desire that they should be fettered or controlled by the Local Government Board or the Board of Education. Unless the Government could see their way to make an equivalent grant out of the National Exchequer in order to stimulate local governing bodies to spend money in the promotion of higher education, he believed that they would continue to waste a large portion of the money now spent on elementary education. He had been a member of a Technical Instruction Committee for over twelve years, and he was surprised at the amount of money which was wasted on elementary education, owing to the want of co-ordination and a proper supply of secondary schools. Over and over again they had been unable to continue particular classes, because the pupils had lost the elementary knowledge they had obtained in the elementary schools; and he was afraid, unless the Government were prepared to make equivalent grants in some form, that they would continue to occupy the unsatisfactory position in regard to higher education that they occupied at present.
  MR. CHANNINGsaid he wished to say a very few words as to the character and principle of the clause. The First Lord of the Treasury was absolutely right when he said that elasticity and freedom for the experimental treatment of secondary education was not only necessary in this country, but had been found necessary also on the Continent and in America. Nothing could be more true than that; but he wished to point out to the right hon. Gentlemen that, although his concession somewhat mitigated the purely permissive nature of the clause, and thereby rendered it more probable that good results would ensue from it, still it remained permissive. Up to ten or fifteen years ago higher and secondary education had not been universally compulsory in the United States, and was only compulsory in States like Massachusetts. Up to that period the growth of education had been exceedingly slow, but since then there had been a very remarkable advance, and the number of "High Schools" and of the pupils in them

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  in the United States had actually doubled during the last ten years. Was not that a fact which they should weigh well in considering the question of secondary education. If the result of this clause was not to provide for that rapid development of education which the commercial interests of the country demanded, the responsibility would rest on the Government for making the clause a practically permissive clause.
  MR. BRIGGsaid that he regarded the limitation in connection with rating as a very serious blot on the Bill. Indeed, it seemed almost impossible that the clause could have been seriously intended by the Government. He hoped that before the Report stage was reached the Government would give equal powers to the County Councils as it was now proposed to give to County Boroughs.
  MR. HERBERT LEWISsaid he was quite ready to acknowledge the spirit in which they had been met by the right hon. Gentleman. The concessions the right hon. Gentleman had made were not very substantial in their character, but still they would be welcomed. He wished to suggest to the right hon. Gentleman a means, which would meet with the approval of the great majority of hon. Members, of making the clause a living reality, instead of leaving it in such a form as would result in its not being adopted at all in a great many parts of the country. He wondered whether the Committee realised what it would cost the Government to give something, he would not call it an equivalent grant, by way of stimulating higher education. A grant similar to the grant which was given in Wales would only cost £350,000 a year, which was equivalent to a ½d. in the £. That amount, he believed, would be a sufficient stimulus to induce every county throughout the country too rganise a good system of secondary education for itself. Education was a very great and important question, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would be able to accept his proposal and provide that stimulus, without which they would not have what they all desired, a proper system of education in the country.
  MR. GODDARDsaid he quite recognised the value of the concession of the Government, but he thought it would
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  be admitted that this was a disappointing clause after all, and that it would not achieve anything like what they had hoped for in the direction of secondary education. He himself felt a great interest in the training of teachers, and was a member of the deputation which waited on the First Lord of the Treasury from the Free Churches of the country. The right hon. Gentleman recognised in the fullest manner that the Nonconformists of the country had a real grievance in connection with the training of pupil teachers, and he said that it would be acknowledged that under the Bill they would be better trained than they were before. The right hon. Gentleman also pointed out that by means of the second clause the County Councils would be able to provide training colleges for teachers. That was the hope he held out to the Nonconformists in regard to the pupil teachers. Undoubtedly a considerable concession had been made by permitting the county boroughs to go beyond the 2d. rate. Although other parts of the country could apply for special permission to spend a larger sum, many would not be willing to do so, and if they did not there was very little chance of additional facilities being provided for the training of these young people. The production of teachers for the schools of the country was one of the most important parts of the work, and, instead of being left to rate-aid, ought to be supported out of national funds. In this clause the Government had had a splendid opportunity of removing a genuine and well recognised grievance, and it was to be greatly regretted that they had not availed themselves of it, and taken a broader view of the whole question.
  MR. HELMEsaid it was a pity that whilst the Government were proposing what was intended to be a national system of education, no minimum standard of secondary education, applicable throughout the country, had been adopted. The accident of the place of a child's birth ought not to prejudice that child in the matter of educational facilities. Men strong in muscle and brain power were bred in the country, and went to supply the life of the towns and of the nation, and the Government ought to take steps to

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  provide for the children in country districts where the financial position was such as to deter the County Council spending the money necessary to secure proper facilities for higher education. The offer of an equivalent grant would greatly stimulate such places. The position of private schools ought also to have careful consideration, otherwise localities would be landed with expenditure which might have been avoided. Another matter requiring to be dealt with was the higher education of girls. These were all points to which it was very desirable that attention should be directed, and he hoped the Government would meet some of them at the Report stage.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 3:—
  MR. BRYCEsuggested that, as it was now twenty minutes to 12 o'clock, progress might be reported, and the consideration of Clause 3 entered upon tomorrow.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURthought they might at least begin the consideration of this clause tonight.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL BANNERMANurged that the request of his right hon. friend the Member for South Aberdeen was not an unreasonable one, and hoped the Government would not refuse it. It was really not usual, in the progress of a Bill such as that under discussion, to commence the consideration of an important clause at so late a period of the sitting.
  MR. HENRY HOBHOUSEmoved to omit the words "who have power to adopt or have adopted Part III. of this Act." He pointed out that it had been very useful for small towns to have the extra rating power which would enable them to provide for their own special necessities, and the county authorities frequently met the amount so raised by an equal sum out of the whisky money. He admitted there was a certain prima facie anomaly in leaving these rating powers in the hands of local authorities who were not to be the educational authorities under the Bill. But they had had those powers for the last twelve years, and they had now to provide out of the
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  higher education rate for evening continuation schools and other institutions which hitherto had been provided for by the School Boards. The words he desired to omit also referred to the option with regard to the adoption of Part III., and he put it to the Government whether the time had not come for an authoritative announcement as to their intention on that point. If they were of opinion that the time had not come, he submitted that the retention of the words would seriously prejudice the discussion of the point on Clause 5.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 2, line 1, to leave out from the word 'district,' to the word 'shall' in line 3.'"—(Mr. Herry Hobhouse.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
  SIR FRANCIS POWELLthought the words would prejudice the discussion which would have to take place on Clause 5, and therefore hoped that they would be omitted.
  MR. CHANNINGsaid he had the same Amendment on the paper with a view to preserve to the non-county boroughs below 10,000 population, and the urban districts below 20,000, the right which they now had under the Technical Instruction Act to rate themselves for the purpose of providing further facilities for technical instruction. That was a very important right, and it had been exercised with great advantage by towns in his constituency, where the County Council had joined with the local authorities by aiding from the whisky money the rate levied to provide technical training. In the town of Welling borough, which had 18,000 population, an excellent Technical Institute had been built and was working well. It would be a great pity if such useful work was to be prevented. The matter required full discussion, and he hoped the Government would not make a hasty reply.
  SIR JOHN DORINGTONremarked that it was rather hard that these authorities, who had exercised this right with great advantage in the past, should be deprived of the power, and he hoped the Government would accept the Amendment.
  DR. MACNAMARAsaid the Amendment raised two most important considerations. The Amendment proposed—quite rightly as he thought—that all non-county boroughs and urban districts, irrespective of population, should have the right to spend the additional penny under the clause to carry on the good work they had been doing, subject, of course, under the altered conditions as to co-ordination and unification, to very effective county control. But, important as that phase of the matter was, it was altogether insignificant when the probable effect of the exclusion of the words was taken in connection with elementary education. Before the Amendment was put, the Government would be compelled to state their intention with regard to the permissive application of the Bill to elementary education. The Committee had all along been hampered by the uncertainty on that point. The permissive element did not appear to be a real part of the scheme; it seemed rather to be an afterthought, put in to meet certain interests which might other-Wise be troublesome. It would be a great mistake, so far as agricultural districts were concerned, if the option was retained.
  THE CHAIRMANpointed out that the hon. Member was discussing Clause 5 rather than the Amendment before the Committee.
  DR. MACNAMARAsaid he desired to know whether the Government intended these words to remain, because, if so, they would probably perpetuate the permissive application of the Bill to elementary education.
  LORD HUGH CECILasked, on a point of order, whether the decision on this Amendment would bind the Committee when it came to discuss Clause 5.
  THE CHAIRMAN: I do not think it would bind the Committee on Clause 5.
  DR. MACNAMARAthought it was quite clear that if a proviso was inserted dealing with authorities who had, or had not, power to adopt Part III., it would prejudice the question of whether Clause 5 should stand part of the Bill.
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  It being midnight, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
  Committee report progress; to sit again Tomorrow.

  WILD BIRDS PROTECTION ACTS AMENDMENT BILL [LORDS].
  Considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment. Read the third time, and passed, without Amendment.
  MUSICAL COPYRIGHT BILL [LORDS].
  Considered in Committee, and reported, with Amendments. As amended, to be considered upon Wednesday.

  CORONATION—REVIEW OF COLONIAL TROOPS—ACCOMMODATION FOR MEMBERS.
  On the motion for Adjournment—
  MR. LOUGHcalled attention to the totally inadequate provision made for Members of the House of Commons at the important review which was to take place on the morrow. It seemed to many Members to be an example of the extraordinary discourtesy with which the House had been treated by the present occupant of the Colonial office. He under stood that some 8,000 or 10,000 seats were available, and a paltry 200 had been placed at the disposal of the House. He hoped that the First Commissioner of Works would be able, even at this stage, to make some arrangement by which hon. Members might attend the review.
  THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (Mr. AKERS DOUGLAS,)said he had not received notice of this question until five minutes earlier, and could only say that he would do what he could to make extra provision in the morning. The hon. Member, he thought, had grossly exaggerated the number of seats that were available. Never had the House been so well treated as in the distribution of seats for the Coronation: but in regard to the few scats—he thought some 2,000—available at the Horse Guards tomorrow, it was thought that their guests from over the seas should have the first choice.
  Adjourned at a quarter after Twelve o'clock.