Commons Sitting of 24 June 1902

Preamble
The House met at Two of the clock.
UNOPPOSED PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  PRIVATE BILLS. [LORDS.]
  (STANDING ORDERS NOT PREVIOUSLY INQUIRED INTO COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKER Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of petitions for Private Bills, that in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, viz.—

NOTTINGHAM CORPORATION BILL [LORDS].
  EDGWARE AND HAMPSTEAD RAILWAY BILL [LORDS].
  Ordered, That the Bills be read a second time.
BELFAST CORPORATION BILL.
Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
RICKMANSWORTH GAS BILL [LORDS].
Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
COMMONS REGULATION (SODBURY) PROVISIONAL ORDER.
Bill to confirm a [Provisional Order under the Inclosure Acts, 1845] to 1882, for the regulation of the Commons in the parishes of Chipping Sodbury, Old Sodbury, and Little Sodbury, in the county of Gloucester, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Hanbury and Mr. Austen Chamberlain.
COMMONS REGULATION (SODBURY) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Ordered, That, in the case of the Commons Regulation (Sodbury) Provisional Order Bill, Standing Order 193a be suspended, and the Bill be read the first time.—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.)
COMMONS REGULATION (SODBURY) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
"To confirm the Provisional Order under the Inclosure Acts, 1845 to 1882, for the regulation of the Commons in the parishes of Chipping Sodbury, Old Sodbury and Little Sodbury in the County of Gloucester," presented and read the first time accordingly; referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 250.]
MEDWAY AND THAMES CANAL BILL [LORDS].
Reported with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

RAILWAY BILLS (GROUP 9.)
Mr. TATTON EGERTONreported from the Committee on Group 9 of Railway Bills; that, for the convenience of parties the Committee had adjourned till Monday next, at half-past Eleven of the clock.
Report to lie upon the Table.

LONDON UNITED TRAMWAYS BILL.
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

STANDING ORDERS.
Resolutions reported from the Committee.

1. "That in the case of the Fleetwood Urban District Council, Petition for Bill, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with. That the parties be permitted to proceed with their Bill.

2. "That in the case of the Weardale and Shildon District Water Bill [Lords], the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with. That the parties be permitted to proceed with their Bill."

Resolutions agreed to.

FLEETWOOD URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL.
Report [this day] from the Select Committee on Standing Orders read.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Worsley-Taylor and Mr. Helme.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to, London Government Scheme (Southwark) Bill, Kingscourt, Keady, and Armagh Railway Bill, without Amendment, Rent Water Bill. West Ham Gas Bill, South Wales Electrical Power Distribution Bill, City of London (Streets) Bill, now, City of London (Public Health) Bill, Knaresborough Improvement Bill, with Amendments.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the Gas and Water Works Facilities Act, 1870, relating to Beccles Water. Burnham and District Water, Croft (Leicestershire) Water, Borough of Portsmouth Water, and Woodford Halse Water." [Water Orders Confirmation (No. 1) Bill [Lords].
Also a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the Gas and Water Works Facilities Act, 1870, relating to Bridge-of-Earn Gas, Clay Cross Gas, Harwich Gas, and Hornsey Gas." [Gas Orders Confirmation (No. 2) Bill [Lords].
Also a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confirm certain Provisional Orders granted by the Board of Trade under the Electric Lighting Acts, 1882 and
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1888, relating to Ardsley East and West, Barton Regis, Blaydon, Chester-le-Street, Church Stretton, Lees, Lower Bebington, Newburn, Seghill, Earsdon, and Tynemouth (Rural), and Stanley (Yorkshire)." [Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 6) Bill [Lords].
Also a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the Electric Lighting Acts 1882 and 1888, and The Electric Lighting (Scotland) Act, 1890, relating to Carnoustie, Dumbarton, Glasgow (Kinning Park), Govan (Extension), Nairn, and St. Andrews." [Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No 5) Bill [Lords].
Also a Bill, intituled, "An Act for incorporating the Piccadilly, City, and North-East London Railway Company, and for empowering them to construct railways from the London United Electric Railways at Hyde Park Corner, in the Parish of St. George's, Hanover Square, through London to Tottenham and Palmer's Green, Southgate, in the City of London, and in the counties of London and Middlesex; and for other purposes." [Piccadilly, City, and North-East London Railway Bill [Lords].
Also a Bill, intituled, "An Act for incorporating the London United Electric Railways Company, and for empowering them to construct railways from Hammersmith to Hyde Park Corner, and from Clapham Junction to the Marble Arch, in the County of London: for authorising agreements between the said company and the London United Tramways (1901), Limited, and others; and for other purposes." [London United Electric Railways Bill [Lords].
Also a Bill, intituled, "An Act to authorise the alteration of the railways of the Great Northern and Strand Railway Company and the transfer of their undertaking and powers to the Brompton and Piccadilly Circus Railway Company and for other purposes." [Great Northern and Strand Railway Bill [Lords].
Also a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confer further powers on the Brompton and Piccadilly Circus Railway Company for the construction of new railways and works, and for the use of part of the Metropolitan District Railway, to extend the time for compulsory purchase of

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land and completion of works, and to authorise working and other agreements with other companies; and for other purposes." [Brompton and Piccadilly Circus Railway (New Lines, etc.) Bill [Lords].
Also a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confer further powers on the Great Northern and City Railway Company, and to extend the time for the completion of the authorised railway of that Company; and for other purposes." [Great Northern and City Railway Bill [Lords].
Also a Bill, intituled, "An Act for conferring further powers upon the Charing Cross, Euston, and Hampstead Railway Company; for authorising agreements with the Metropolitan District Railway Company, the South Eastern and Chatham Railway Companies Managing Committee, the South Eastern Railway Company, and the Baker Street and Waterloo Railway Company; and for other purposes." Charing Cross, Euston, and Hampstead Railway (No. 1 and No. 3) Bill [Lords].
Also a Bill, intituled, "An Act to empower the Charing Cross, Euston, and Hampstead Railway Company, to extend their authorised railways to Highgate; and for other purposes." [Charing Cross, Euston, and Hampstead Railway (No. 2) Bill [Lords].
Also a Bill, intituled, "An Act to extend the time for the compulsory purchase of lands for and completion of the railways and works authorised by the North-West London Railway Act, 1899; and for other purposes." [North-West London Railway Bill [Lords].
Also a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confer further powers on the Baker Street and Waterloo Railway Company." [Baker Street and Waterloo Railway Bill [Lords].
Also a Bill, intituled, "An Act to incorporate the Mexborough and Swinton Tramways Company, and to empower that Company to make and maintain tramways and other works; and for other purposes." [Mexborough and Swinton Tramways Bill [Lords].
Also a Bill, intituled, "An Act to incorporate the Saddleworth and Springhead Tramways Company, and to empower that Company to make and maintain tramways and other works; and for other purposes." [Saddleworth and Springhead Tramways Bill [Lords].
Also a Bill, intituled, "An Act to extend the periods for taking lands for and for the construction and completion of the light railway and tramways transferred by and authorised by the Hastings Tramways Act, 1900; and for other purposes." Hastings Tramways Bill [Lords].
And also a Bill, intituled, "An Act for vesting in the Taff Vale Railway Company the undertaking of the Aberdare Railway Company; and for other purposes." [Taff Vale Railway Bill [Lords].

WATER ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 1) BILL [LORDS].
Read the first time; referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 253.]
GAS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 2) BILL [LORD].
Read the first time; referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 254.]
ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 6) BILL [LORD].
Read the first time; referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 255.]
ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 5) BILL [LORD].
Read the first time; referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 256.]
PICCADILLY, CITY, AND NORTH-EAST LONDON RAILWAY BILL [LORD].
  LONDON UNITED ELECTRIC RAIL WAYS BILL [LORD].

    GREAT NORTHERN AND STRAND RAILWAY BILL [LORD].
    BROMPTON AND PICCADILLY CIRCUS RAILWAY (NEW LINES, &c.) BILL [LORD].
    GREAT NORTHERN AND CITY RAILWAY BILL [LORD].
    CHARING CROSS, EUSTON, AND HAMPSTEAD RAILWAY (No. 1 AND No. 3) BILL [LORD].
    CHARING CROSS, EUSTON, AND HAMPSTEAD RAILWAY (No. 2) BILL [LORD].
    NORTH-WEST LONDON RAILWAY BILL [LORD].
    BAKER STREET AND WATERLOO RAILWAY BILL [LORD].
    MEXBOROUGH AND SWINTON TRAM WAYS BILL [LORD].
    SADDLEWORTH AND SPRINGHEAD TRAMWAYS BILL [LORD].
    HASTINGS TRAMWAYS BILL [LORD].
    TAFF VALE RAILWAY BILL [LORD].
    Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

PETITIONS.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petitions against; From Stockton-on-Tees; Gawthorpe; Batley; Luton; Norwood; Woodhouse; Leicester (three); Scarborough; Selly Oak: Dursley; and Durham; to lie upon the Table.
  FACTORY AND WORKSHOP ACT (1901) AMENDMENT BILL.
  Petition from Battersea, for alteration; to lie upon the Table.
  LONDON ELECTIONS BILL.
  Petition from Battersea, in favour; to be upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  EAST INDIA (IMPERIAL SERVICE FORCE).
  Return [presented 20th June] to be printed. [No. 238].
  NAVY (WATER-TUBE BOILERS).
  Copy presented, of Report of the Committee appointed by the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty to consider certain questions respecting Modern Types of Boilers for Naval Purposes [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  BOARD OF EDUCATION (GENERAL REPORTS).
  Copy presented, of General Reports of His Majesty's Inspectors on Elementary Schools and Training Colleges for the year 1901 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  BOARD OF EDUCATION.
  Copy presented, of Supplementary Regulations for Secondary Day Schools and for Evening Schools from 1st August 1902 to 31st July 1903 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Civil Service—Unestablished and Established Service Pensions.
  MR. MACVEAGH: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the fact that men copyists on appointment to the assistant clerks' class were allowed to count one-half of their unestablished service towards pension, he can extend a similar privilege to those boy copyists who have since obtained permanent appointments in the Civil Service.
  (Answer.) I can hold out no hope of such a change as the hon. Member suggests. The two cases are not analogous, and the service of boys is never reckoned as pensionable.—(Treasury.)

  Proposed Allowance to Reservists remaining in South Africa.
  SIR BLUNDELL MAPLE: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the fact that the War Office has no power to grant those members of the reserve forces who are willing to remain in South Africa an allowance of 10s. a week for a period of three years, so as to constitute a national reserve body liable for active service at any time within that period, and that the Colonial Office have no funds at their disposal from which to make up such reservists' pay to this weekly sum, he will sanction the grant to the War Office of the additional amount necessary.
  (Answer.) I do not think this Question should have been addressed to me, as it is not my province to initiate proposals for expenditure; but I am not prepared to make any proposal to Parliament of the nature suggested.—(Treasury.)

  Enlistment—Case of G. W. McCracken.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELL: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that George Walker McCracken enlisted in the Royal Engineers in January last at Belfast, and was then attested medically and otherwise, being told that he must wait a week or so for certain papers from the War Office; and that he was urged to join another regiment on the understanding that he could be transferred to the Royal Engineers. And, will he explain why, on joining the 8th Hussars, this man had been refused the transfer promised.

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  (Answer.) There is nothing on this man's attestation paper to hear oat the statement that he enlisted for the Royal Engineers. The question of his transfer is one for the general officers commanding concerned.—(War Office.)

  Light Railway—Lincoln-Scawby.
  MR. SEYMOUR ORMSBY-GORE: To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will state what facilities can be afforded by the Government, under the Light Railways Act, to the district lying between the city of Lincoln and Kirton-in-Lindsey for the creation of a light railway between the two places; and what contribution would be expected from the inhabitants of the district through which the light railway would pass.
  (Answer.) An Order, entitled the North Lincolnshire Light Railway Order, was confirmed by the Board of Trade early in 1900, under which powers were given to construct a line between Lincoln and Scawby, which would apparently serve the locality referred to by the hon. Member. The question of Government assistance by way of loan or special advance would be one for the Treasury. It is not understood that any application for such assistance has been made in respect of the scheme mentioned. The Board of Trade would give careful consideration to any request made to them for a Certificate under Section 5 of The Light Railways Act, 1896.—(Board of Trade.)

  Middlesbrough Superintendent of Mercantile Marine &c.
  MR. HARRIS: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the appointment of a third-class surveyor of customs (late a laboratory chemist) to be Superintendent of Mercantile Marine, Receiver of Wrecks, Registrar to the Royal Naval Reserve, Registrar of Shipping, and Collector of Customs at Middlesbrough; and whether he will consider the advisability, in the interests of shipowners and seamen, of withholding in this instance the appointments issuable by the Board of Trade under sections 246 and 566 of The Merchant Shipping Act, 1894.
  (Answer.) I have ascertained from the Board of Customs, that the gentleman referred to in the hon. Member's Question
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  was appointed Collector of Customs at Middlesbrough after careful consideration of his qualifications. The Board of Customs tell me that they have satisfied themselves that the Gentleman is, in respect of ability, knowledge, and experience, competent to fill the post of collector, and they feel assured that he will prove himself equally competent to discharge any other duties, usually fulfilled by a Collector of Customs, which may be entrusted to him by the Board of Trade. In these circumstances, I should not feel justified in withholding my sanction to his appointment under sections 246 and 566 of The Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, as Superintendent of the Mercantile Marine Office and Receiver of Wrecks at Middlesbrough. (Board of Trade.)

  Identification of Motor Cars.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: To ask the President of the Local Government Board if his attention has been called to instances in which motorists, having brought about carriage accidents, have driven away at full speed without affording any opportunity for their identification; and if His Majesty's Government will introduce legislation without delay to compel all motors to bear a conspicuous number, lettered by counties, on their vehicles as in France, the United States, and other countries.
  (Answer.) My attention has been called to some instances of the kind referred to by hon. and gallant friend. The question of securing the identification of motor cars is Tinder my consideration, but I cannot undertake to propose legislation on the subject during the present session.—(Local Government Board.)

  Bank of England and Powers of Attorney.
  MR. BOULNOIS: To ask Mr. Attorney General whether, seeing that it is the custom to deposit original powers of attorney in the Central Office of the Supreme Court of Judicature where it is filled for reference; and that, whether after such filling it is impossible for the holder to re-obtain possession, he can take steps to induce the Governors of the Bank of England to recognise the original power of attorney equally with the office copy.

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  (Answer.) In view of the reasons of convenience which have led to the adoption by the Bank of England of the present practice, I do not see my way to take steps to have it altered.—(Mr. Attorney General.)

ILLNESS OF THE KING—POSTPONEMENT OF THE CORONATION.
THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): Sir, the greater number of the Members assembled here have probably read the bulletin that was published an hour ago with regard to the King, but in case somebody has not seen it, I will read it:—
"The King is suffering from perityphilitis. His condition on Saturday was so satisfactory that it was hoped that, with care, His Majesty would be able to go through the Coronation ceremony. On Monday evening a recrudescence became manifest, rendering a surgical operation necessary today."
That is signed by the various physicians attending His Majesty. Since that bulletin was published, the operation to which it refers has been performed, and I have the intense gratification of informing the House that the operation went off most successfully, and that His Majesty is going on as well as possible. That announcement will, I am sure, raise a great load of anxiety from the mind of everyone who hears me. My first thought, on hearing the melancholy news this morning, was that the House might desire to mark its sense of the great disaster which has befallen the whole community by adjourning, but on more careful reflection I have come to the conclusion that such a course would be ill-advised. The anxiety we all feel must be great, and that anxiety is necessarily augmented by the circumstances under which this great misfortune has befallen His Majesty, the Royal Family, and the whole country. I have come to the conclusion that if this House were to take the exceptional course to which I have adverted, that which is anxiety in the public mind might become panic and a wholly exaggerated idea of the present state of things might take possession of the public mind. That state of things is undoubtedly anxious and grave, but we ought not to use any stronger epithet than these two in regard to it; and I am
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convinced that, if we were to consider the King's condition such that it would be improper to carry on the business of the country, we should produce a wholly false impression. In these circumstances, I do not propose to suggest any exceptional course to the House; and I am only thankful that I have been able to inform the House that, as far as we know at present, everything is going on as well as can possibly be expected.
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I may say that I entirely approve of the course which, in these anxious and distressing circumstances, the right hon. Gentleman has suggested. Like him, I have passed, and I daresay every one who hears me has passed, through the phase of contemplating escape from ordinary work and indulging one's feelings by an adjournment. But I think the right hon. Gentleman has come to a wise conclusion, and that it is at once more consistent with the character of our countrymen, more in accordance with their general tone of feeling, and more likely, as he says, to prevent any exaggerated alarm on the part of the public, that we should go on with our business in the ordinary way.

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  Time Expired Soldiers.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether any measures are to be taken in addition to or similar to those which in India have been taken and announced, to retain with the Colours men of the Army regular forces who would otherwise take their discharge.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. BRODRICK,): There is no intention of taking any such measures. What has been done in India has already drawn considerably on the Reserve. I am sorry that, in replying to a previous Question put by the right hon. Baronet,† the alteration made in the punctuation of the Question as originally minted in the Orders of the Day escaped notice.
  † See page 690.

  War Office—Committee on Royal Engineers and Works Department.
  MR. BROADHURST: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can inform the House when the Report of the Committee, presided over by Lord Esher, on the Royal Engineers and Works Department of the War Office, will be presented to the House.
  MR. BRODRICK: This Committee was a Departmental Committee appointed to advise the Secretary of State, and I have not decided to publish the Report.

  Report on Military Education.
  CAPTAIN NORTON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he has considered the Report upon Military Education, and can state whether he proposes to adopt the Report in its entirety or to take action upon certain of its recommendations only; and, if the latter, can he give an outline of the reforms to be carried out.
  MR. BRODRICK: Will the hon. Member kindly refer to my reply yesterday to a Question put by my honourable and gallant friend the Member for Bath? † It is impossible for me to fix any date for giving a decision on the many important points involved.

  Disembodiment of Militia Regiments.
  CAPTAIN NORTON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the fact that when a militia regiment is disembodied at short notice, hardship is experienced by a number of the men, who are unable to arrange to get work quickly, he will consider the advisability of giving officers commanding regiments long notice of the approximate date of disembodiment.
  MR. BRODRICK: This question has been thoroughly considered, and, as the House has been already informed, it appears inexpedient to retain the troops in order to give them a longer notice.

  Hong Kong Defences.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, in view of the fact that during the war in South Africa no guns were available for the purpose of fortifying the hills
  † See page 1, 378.
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  which command the new Kowloon Territory, Hong Kong, and Mirs Bay, will he say whether provision has been made in this year's Estimates for a supply of modern guns for this purpose.
  MR. BRODRICK: May I refer the hon. Member to the reply given in answer to a question put by him on the 24th of March,† to which I have nothing to add?
  MR. WEIR: In consequence of the unsatisfactory nature of the right hon. Gentleman's reply, I shall take the earliest opportunity of calling the attention of the House to the matter.

  Hong Kong Municipal Administration.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will consider the expediency of establishing a municipal council in Hong Kong, on lines similar to the councils which have already been established at Shanghai, Singapore, and Penang.
  MR. BRODRICK: The question has been considered from time to time, but is not at present ripe for decision.

  Hong Kong Post Office.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether arrangements have been made for the establishment of a new Post Office at Hong Kong; and, having regard to the present number of the postal staff of the Colony, will he say whether the question, of an increase of staff has yet been considered.
  MR. BRODRICK: A site for a new Post Office has been bought. In the last three years the postal staff has been increased by nearly fifty per cent., and at the present moment there is no proposal for a further increase before me.
  MR. WEIR: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the present office is utterly unsuitable?
  [No answer was returned],

  Indian People's Income.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India if he will state the income per head of the people of India during the year 1900.
  † See (4) Debates. cv., 823.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Lord GEORGE HAMILTON,): I am afraid that I can not comply with the hon. Member's request. Any such estimate so depends on hypothetical data as to deprive it of the authority which should be attached to official figures.

  Trade in Firearms with Eastern Natives.
  MR. WHITLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if his attention has been called to the conviction, on 18th June, of the Birmingham Safe Company, on a charge of exporting percussion caps to Persia concealed in safes; and if he will appoint a departmental committee to inquire into the extent of the trade in firearms with native races in the East, and to consider if additional powers are required for the control of this trade.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Lord CRANBORNE,): The subject has for some years past occupied the attention of the Foreign Office and India Office who have been in constant communication with regard to it. The suggestion contained in the latter part of the hon. Member's Question shall be considered.

  Licensing of Stage Plays—Maeterlinck's "Monna Giovanna."
  MR. JOHN CAMPBELL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that a protest has been made against the refusal of the Lord Chamberlain to license the production of a play of Maeterlinck's, entitled "Monna Giovanna; and whether he can take any steps to secure the grant of a licence.
  THE SECRETARY or STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. RITCHIE,): The answer to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative. As to the second the matter rests with the Lord Chamberlain, who informs me that a licence to perform the play in French was refused after careful consideration, and that he sees no reason to alter his decision, nor can he hold out any hope that the matter will be reconsidered.

  White Estate, County Clare.
  MR. LUNDON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord
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  Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Land Commission has refused to sell individually to the tenants in the few unsold holdings on the White Estate which are situated in the village of Labasheeda, county Clare; and that the Land Purchase Commission has objected to advance the purchase money, whilst some tenants are themselves prepared to pay the full amount for their holdings; and will he cause inquiry to be made into the cause of those refusals.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM,): The Land Commissioners stated that advances under the Land Purchase Acts would not be made in respect of certain very small garden plots, but that if the sales were carried out by cash payments the Commissioners would vest the holdings in the purchasers, if so desired.

  Irish Training Colleges.
  MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will grant the Return relative to Training Colleges (Ireland) standing on today's Paper.†
  Mr. WYNDHAM: Yes, Sir.
  MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the interest and sinking fund on the building loans made by the Government to the three Training Colleges in Dublin, are paid for those colleges by an annual vote by Parliament; that similar loans for similar purposes have been made to the training colleges at Waterford, Limerick, and Belfast, but that in these cases interest and sinking fund have to be provided out of the revenue; and, seeing that the same public work under the same public authority is being carried on by these training colleges, will he take steps to remove this inequality.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The facts are correctly stated in the Question. The payment has been made since 1890 in accordance with an agreement of that date between the Irish Government and the Treasury, with the object of putting the three private Training Colleges then existing on the same footing as the
  † See Return ordered on the 25th June.

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  Marlboro' Street College managed by the National Board. The colleges at Belfast, Waterford, and Limerick have been established since the date of that arrangement, and it does not apply to them.

  Post Office and Continental Lottery Circulars.
  MR. MANSFIELD: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether he is aware that Members and the general public are receiving circulars through the post of a new great money lottery, which is to be drawn in I a Continental town; that these circulars are being sent in letter form, posted in London, stamped at the Post Office, and contain directions to send replies and cash to an address abroad; and whether he can take measures to prevent facilities being given by the Post Office for this traffic.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN,): Lottery circular's posted in open covers are withheld from delivery if observed, but it is not of course possible to examine every open cover passing through the post, and when circulars are sent in enclosed covers, the Post Office has no cognizance of the contents of such letters, and cannot therefore interfere with their transmission. Even if it were possible to detect them when presented at a Post Office for stamping, their transmission through the post could not be effectually prevented, as it would still be open to the senders to affix stamps and post them in the ordinary way.

  Education Bill.
  MR. MANSFIELD: I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education whether the local authority will have power, under Clause 8 of the Education Bill, to amalgamate neighbouring schools belonging to the same denomination in a locality or to re-organize their departments; and will the local authority have power to give instructions at centres on such subjects as cookery and manual instruction.
  I beg also to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education whether, in the event of there being more than one Education Committee for Elementary Education as provided for in
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  Clause 12 of the Education Bill, each such Committee will have power to fix the expenditure in its own district.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Perhaps I may be allowed to point out to the hon. Member that these questions are of a character which can be dealt with to better advantage when we reach that part of the Bill with which they are concerned. I have not had time to consider them, and can therefore say no more.

  Business of the House.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I think it will be necessary to ask the right hon. gentleman what he intends to do with regard to business, in the circumstances in which we stand, and especially what his intentions are with regard to the proposed Adjournment.
  Mr. A. J. BALFOUR: Of course, the Adjournment is at an end, as, unhappily, the occasion for it is indefinitely postponed. In these circumstances we had better go on with the Education Bill tonight. On Thursday we propose to take Scotch Estimates, if that is agreeable to the House. The Finance Bill was fixed for to morrow afternoon. I think that had better stand. I will consider whether it is desirable to take the Education Bill at the evening sitting tomorrow.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Many Members have made arrangements which will probably prevent so full an attendance tomorrow night as is desirable for a Bill like the Education Bill.
  Mr. A. J. BALFOUR: Then I will not take the Education Bill tomorrow night.
  Mr. JOHN REDMOND: May I ask that the Irish Bill on the Paper shall not be taken tomorrow night, as some of the Irish Members have made arrangements which will render it impossible for them to be present.
  Mr. A. J. BALFOUR: It is not very easy for me to settle the business on the spur of the moment. I quite understand the position in which hon. Members are placed, and any possible scheme of business must, I fear, be unpleasant to somebody. But we may expect to go on with the Licensing Bill at the evening sitting tomorrow.

  The Public Holidays.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: Will a new Royal Proclamation be issued with regard to the Bank Holidays?
  MR. A. J BALFOUR: I should not like to make a definite statement on that point, but I have had some conversation with my right hon. friend the Home Secretary, and I think that there can be no doubt that the public holidays will stand. The difficulty of making a change, even if a change could be made without legislation, is so great that I think the public holidays must stand.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: Is not that a very strong reason for not sitting on those days?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: As the right hon. Baronet is aware, the House has always sat on Lank Holidays unless they fall in with our arrangements of the ordinary holidays. We always sit on the first Monday in August.

  Civil Service Estimates.
  MR. FITZROY: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he will put down Class 7, Vote 2, of Civil Service Estimates for discussion upon an early date.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I shall be glad to consider this question, but until I have some idea as to the relative desire of the House to discuss one Vote rather than another I can give no absolute pledge on the subject.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to Royal Naval Reserve Volunteers Bill without Amendment.

REPAYMENT OF LOANS BY LOCAL AUTHORITIES.
Report from the Select Committee, with Minutes of Evidence, brought up, and read.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 239.]

IMPRISONMENT OF A MEMBER.
Ordered, That the Select Committee on the imprisonment of a Member do consist of Seventeen Members.
Mr. Attorney General, Mr. Attorney General for Ireland, Mr. Atherley-Jones, Mr. Balfour, Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman, Mr. Dillon, Sir John Dorington, Sir William Hart Dyke, Mr. Halsey, Mr. MacNeill, Sir Herbert Maxwell, Sir Francis Powell, Mr. William Redmond, Mr. Edmund Robertson, Mr. Lawson Walton, Mr. Wharton, and Mr. Wodehouse were accordingly nominated members of the said Committee.
Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records.
Ordered, That Five be the quorum of the Committee.—(Sir William Walrond.)

NEW BILLS.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND).
  Mr. WYNDHAM: In asking leave to introduce a Bill "to further amend the law relating to local government in Ireland, and for other purposes connected therewith," I may shortly explain that the measure does not embody any great question of policy. Still, to avoid misconception, it is necessary that I should introduce it in a few words. Local Government has been in force in Ireland during a period of more than three years, and in the course of that time certain defects have been revealed, giving rise in some cases to inconvenience, sometimes to hardship and even injustice. These defects have been brought to the notice of the Government on more than one occasion, generally during the discussions on the Irish Local Government Board Vote. By this Bill it is intended to make good certain undertakings given by the Government, and to remedy any other defects of a character analogous to those which have been dwelt upon in the House. The measure contains a number of provisions of a minor character, and deals, among other things, with the simplification of procedure and lessening the expense in cases where land is taken for roads, to obtain a further discretion in extending the time during which debts payable in respect of poor rate may be paid, to allow certain Urban District Councils to make a 5 per cent. deduction of the proportion of Police and bridge rate required to be raised in their respective districts, and the holding of half-yearly instead of quarterly meetings in certain counties. It will also

  1523
  place Irish Councils on the same footing as English and Scotch Town Councils in regard to contributions from the general funds of the County Councils. I want to make it clear to the House that I am not proposing any fundamental change in the scheme and general character of the Local Government (Ireland) Act.
  Mr. JOHN REDMONDsaid that any one who had watched the course of business would imagine for a moment that the right hon. Gentleman was introducing a Bill dealing with the really large defects which had been disclosed in the working of the Irish Local Government Act. The only objection he had to the Hill was that it dealt with small defects, and paid no attention to the larger defects which had often been disclosed. The right hon. Gentleman had better make up his mind to submit these measures to adequate discussion in the House, if he desired to get them passed. It had been the practice recently of the right hon. Gentleman to introduce a number of small Bills dealing with important subjects in Ireland, expecting on that account that they should be allowed to go through without discussion. This took place last session; but the time had come when that policy must be abandoned. He would not agree to any of these Bills going through unless they were submitted to the House with adequate opportunity for their discussion.
  Bill to further amend the law relating to Local Government in Ireland, and for other purposes connected therewith, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Wyndham and Mr. Attorney General for Ireland.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) BILL.
  "To further amend the law relating to Local Government in Ireland, and for other purposes connected therewith," presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 251.]
  REGISTRATION OF MOTOR VEHICLES BILL.
  "To provide for the Registration of Motor Vehicles, and to amend The Locomotives Highways Act, 1896," presented by Mr. Scott Montagu, under Standing Order 31; supported by Mr. Chaplin, Sir Edgar Vincent, Mr. Arthur Stanley, Mr. Harmsworth, Mr. E.). Tennant, and Mr. T. P. O'Connor; to be read a second time upon Tuesday, 15th July, and to be printed. [Bill 252.]

  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Mr. J. W. LOWTHERin the Chair.
  Clause 2:—
  Amendment again proposed—
  "In page 1, line 19, to leave out the words 'education other than elementary,' and insert the words 'secondary, technical, and higher education, and shall provide for the organisation and co-ordination of all forms of education, including the training of teachers, within their area.'"—(Mr. Mather.)
  Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid he thought it would be necessary to add a few words to the Amendment, in order to meet the objections of the right hon. Gentleman opposite. So far as the substance of the Amendment was concerned, he failed to see what answer the Government could possibly have to it. It called on the education authority to consider the provision of secondary, technical and higher education, and the defect of the Bill was that it contained no definition whatever of what was secondary, technical or higher education. The words were purposely left indefinite, and when they saw how loth the various county authorities had been to enforce their powers under the Technical Instruction Act, it emphasised the necessity for giving in the Bill some indication of what they were expected by Parliament to do in connection with these subjects. Now the Amendment of his hon. friend provided that indication, inasmuch as it suggested that the local authority should arrange the organisation and co-ordination of all kinds of education, including the training of teachers. He regarded the training of teachers as a very important matter indeed, and he proposed to confine his observations on this occasion to urging on the Government the necessity for at once doing something to provide for the training of teachers. They were dealing with education generally throughout

  1525
  the country, and surely the first step they ought to take was one that would secure an adequate supply of efficient teachers. It was conceded on all hands that the teaching system of this country fell far short of that which obtained in other countries with which comparison might fairly be made. The system of training pupil teachers was condemned on all sides as most in-adequate, and he would like to read to the Committee a paragraph from a Report of one of the Chief Inspectors of Training Colleges, issued in the year 1900. [After reading the extract, the hon. Member continued:] He had some figures on this subject which might be interesting to the Committee. There were, at the present time, 143,000 persons teaching in elementary schools; of these only 64,000 were certificated, while of the certificated ones only 35,179 had been through a regular course of training, thus three-fourths of the teachers of this country were entirely untrained. In the last examination for admission to training colleges 10,128 teachers qualified for entrance, but room could be found for only 2,732, or 1 in 4. This was a serious matter so far as elementary education was concerned, but it became still more serious if they were to do anything for secondary and technical education. They must provide teachers with the necessary training for that. Next he came to the form of the Amendment. The right hon. Gentleman had told them, when speaking for the Government, that they had purposely left the words without defining what higher education was. When he was speaking on the previous night, he pointed out the great danger which arose from the adoption of such a course. No one, for instance, could say that the judges might not rule that the training of teachers was outside the powers of a local authority, and if there were a possibility of such a ruling, surely it made it all the more necessary to insert in the clause the Amendment of his hon. friend. He might enforce his argument by calling the attention of the Committee and of the Government to the fact that Clause 12 of the Bill of 1896 dealt with the matter in the way the Amendment now proposed. The heading of the Clause read that the education authority,
  1526
  for the purpose of promoting education other than elementary, might, amongst other things, do such and such things. It might supply, or aid in supplying, teachers for the purpose of improving the efficiency of the teaching staff, whether in elementary or other schools, and it might aid in the establishment of organisations for the training of teachers. They thus had a precedent in the Bill of 1896, and surely if the Government had any genuine intention of doing something in the direction he had indicated, there was no harm in adding the words he was suggesting. It would make clear the position and powers of the local education authority, and would indicate to that authority what Parliament thought it ought to do. The right hon. Gentleman on the previous night said the addition of the suggested words might not cover the whole ground, and to meet that objection he proposed to insert the words "amongst other matters," after the word "shall," in the first line of his hon. friend's Amendment.
  THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order! It is necessary to make a hole in the Bill before it is possible to stop up the gap.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANS: Cannot my hon. friend the Member for Rossendale accept the Amendment in the form I am suggesting?
  MR. MATHER: I accept the Amendment.
  THE CHAIRMAN: Then you ask leave to withdraw your Amendment and substitute another?
  MR. MATHER: No.
  MR. HERBERT LEWIS: Is it not open to the hon. Gentleman to withdraw his Amendment on the condition that another is substituted for it?
  THE CHAIRMAN: That is what I have suggested to the hon. Gentleman.
  MR. MATHER: I am prepared to accept that suggestion.
  Amendment; by leave, withdrawn.
  Amendment proposed:—
  Page 1, line 19, to leave out the words "education other than elementary," and insert the words "secondary, technical, and higher education, and shall amongst other things, provide for the organisation and co-ordination of all forms of education, including the training of teachers, within their area."—(Mr. Mather.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
  SIR FRANCIS POWELLsaid that he thought the wider words of the Government were better calculated to moot the case than the long schedule which appeared in Clause 12 of the Bill of 1896. The old style was to have long and elaborate definitions, but that had been found to be fraught with considerable danger, and in later days it had been discovered that it was desirable to use more general terms. This was one of the questions in which, in his opinion, the new system was far better than the old, and he therefore hoped that the Committee would adhere to the language of the Bill as printed by the Government. Objection was taken on the previous evening to the Clause as it now stood on account of the difficulties which might arise through the non-existence of scholarships, but in the West Riding of Yorkshire there were a large number of scholarships constituted by the Technical Instruction Committee. He had not the figures with him in regard to that county, but so far as Lancashire was concerned he might tell the Committee that a sum of no less than £7,260 a year was set aside and awarded in April and May, 1901, for scholarships. It was quite clear, therefore, there need be no difficulty on that ground. There was another remark which he desired to make in comparing the Bill of 1896 with the proposals now before the Committee. So long as they were dealing with the language of the Bill he had not a word of complaint to make; but the proceedings of the previous night had thrown upon the local authority the duty of making enquiries as to the condition of education throughout its district. A similar direction was given in the Bill of 1896, which also instructed the local authority to make inquiries with respect to the education given by any school within the county. But then words were added excepting
  1528
  schools which, in the opinion of the Education Department, were of a non local character. This raised a question in regard to endowed schools, which were of two classes. Some were almost exclusively local, and therefore ought to be dealt with by the local authority; while others were national in their character, and consequently any interference with their administration might give rise to great difficulties. He had the honour of being a member of the governing body of the Bradford Grammar School, one of the most excellent schools in the country. It was essentially a local school, serving the needs of a particular locality, and it ought to be administered and governed, as indeed it was, according to the wants; of that locality. But in the case of non-local schools it was clearly the intention of the Government, as indicated by their Bill of 1896, that they should not be brought within the jurisdiction of the county authority. With regard to the question of training colleges, there was no doubt a great deficiency in that respect. He shared the labours of five councils of such colleges, and he was able to state that, as a rule, the inspectors reported very favourably on those institutions. Some colleges were so admirably planned and conducted that no complaint could be made. The standard was already high, but they were endeavouring to raise it year by year; and he was sure that there could be no just complaint as to their efficiency. Where they considered the number of children, a different question, however, arose. According to the estimates for the year, the number of children in training colleges, mainly for a two years' course, was 6,076. He believed that their energies could not be better directed than in extending the training colleges, and no work elicited greater sympathy. With reference to the training of teachers in secondary schools, the only remark to make was that such training was non-existent. A Committee sat on the question some years ago, and the result of their enquiry satisfied every member of the Committee that a condition of affairs existed which should not be permitted to continue. No doubt a great deal had been done since then, but what had been done by no means met the case. No doubt they were making progress, but he deemed it his duty friend of education, to draw attention once again to one of the most important

  1529
  factors in their educational system. He was glad the Committee had given him an opportunity of making a few remarks on a subject which appeared to him to be deserving of consideration.
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: I had myself put down an Amendment on the Paper very much to the effect of that which has been moved by my hon. friend, and I, therefore, rise to support his Amendment. The question is, are we or are we not to give any indication to the new educational authorities as to what we desire and expect they will do in regard to higher education, according to their means, and according to what commends itself to them? What, indication does this Bill give as it is? There is nothing in this Clause which indicates at all what higher education means in any sense. It is only a negative kind of indication, for the Clause merely says it is not to be elementary education. The moment I read this Bill, the first thing that struck me was that it was not a Rill for secondary education at all, and everything that has taken place since has only confirmed that opinion. Care has been taken that the new education authorities shall be under no obligation whatever to do anything at all for higher education; and it really comes to this, that they may, if they think fit, do something for secondary education. All that is now asked is that an indication shall he given of what we desire the new educational authorities should do if they think fit, and are able to do something for higher education. What is it the Legislature would be glad they should do? It would be glad they should do something for secondary education, and something for higher education, and, above all things, it would be glad they should do something for the training of teachers. I ask. Is an Education Bill good for anything that does nothing for the training of teachers or for higher education? I say it is not an Education Bill at all, and to bring forward as a great new scheme for education a Bill which makes no provision, or does not even indicate a desire, to do anything for the training of teachers is absurd. The education authority may say that education other than elementary does not mean the education of teachers but of scholars.
  1530
  I go further; the local authorities generally have, as regards technical education, declined to do anything except so far as the money was supplied to them from other sources than their own. They have done good work for technical education so far as the whisky money enabled them to do it, but beyond that, and as regards any money raised by them selves, they have not, as a general rule, done anything at all. I know the interpretation which has been placed on these words by some of the rural authorities with whom I have been speaking. It will not do to have secondary education only in the county towns. In a large county like Devonshire or Hampshire you must have classes for secondary education accessible to the children throughout the county, but the county authorities will say, "Oh, we never intended to do anything of the kind. What we understood by the Bill was that 'education other than elementary' meant just those subjects which have been sterilised by the Cockerton judgment, and nothing more." If the local authorities do nothing more than carry on continuation schools, night schools, and the training of pupil teachers, they will absolutely satisfy the terms of this Bill. In my opinion, in the greater part of the country districts that is all which will be done. I know that in large towns they will do a great deal more, and will be prepared to do a great deal more, but that is not what we want. What we really want is a continuation of education up to the highest scale in the rural districts of this country. The great towns like Manchester, Liverpool, and Birmingham will take care of themselves. One thing that struck me in the professed desire to promote secondary education is the limitation of the rate in these great towns. Why should you not allow the great towns to spend what they like, and what they can? Why should Birmingham, for instance, be prevented from spending more than a 2d. rate? That is an astounding thing. What I desire to indicate is that we want something to be done in regard to higher education in the rural districts, but you have taken good care that there shall be no obligation on the local authorities to do it. Let us at least further indicate what we think is desirable in the language of this Bill. Let us affect a belief if we have it not; and even if the words should he hypocritical as regards the agricultural

  1531
  districts, at all events let us render to virtue the tribute which is paid to hypocrisy, and let us have these hypocritical words, even if they mean nothing, put into the Bill. That is really the purpose of this Amendment. If this Bill is about to go forth with the bare sterile enactment in regard to higher education, it will be the worst condemnation of the Bill it is possible to conceive. In regard to elementary education we have made it compulsory, and we have provided additional funds for this purpose; for higher education we have nothing at all, and at all events I think it is of the highest consequence that we should put words into the Bill which would indicate what we desire should be carried out as regards secondary education.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. WALTER LONG,): I think the right hon. Gentleman has been unusually unfair in the criticisms he has addressed to the Government measure when he tells us there is nothing in this Bill dealing with higher education, and he asks that words should be inserted, such as the words of the Amendment, in order to indicate what the intention of Parliament is. I think the right hon. Gentleman must have been absent from the part of our debate last night when the Government accepted an Amendment, following a suggestion made by my hon. friend the Member for North Hackney, in which we laid on the local authorities the obligation to consider the needs, and to take such steps as might seem to them desirable after consultation with the Board of Education. The Government propose to give the local authorities fuller power and discretion to do what they think right in the interest of education other than elementary education. The right hon. Gentleman objects—as he is entitled to object—to anything proposed by the Government, but what he is not entitled to do is to put his own construction on our language and to ask the House to accept it. The powers which will be given to the local authorities will be fuller, greater, and more liberal than they possess at the present time. I appeal to the Committee to say are not the words "other than elementary" wider than the words "secondary technical and higher education"? What is there that could be done under the new words which cannot be done under the
  1532
  powers of the clause as it now stands? The local authorities will be able to do what they like in the way of superior education. Has the right hon. Gentleman no confidence in the power of the localities to decide what is best for the locality I County Councils have done great work in connection with secondary education, as has been pointed out by the hon. Member for Mid Gloucestershire last night and again tonight with unanswerable force. What has been done with the whiskey monies? The local authorities have applied those not to the relief of taxation, as they were entitled to do, but for higher education, and all the Government asks is that, in the new powers we propose to give, discretion shall be left with the local authorities to do what they think is right and best in the interests of each locality. If the Committee passes the Amendment on the Paper it will be going in direct hostility to the Amendment accepted last night. The Amendment last night was accepted as a compromise, and the Committee, having accepted words which leave the matter in a very wide and open form, is now asked to narrow the issue by accepting these words, and because the Government refuse to accept this Amendment it is said we are hostile to higher education. We have made a distinct advance now from the words of the clause as they originally stood, and I hope the Committee will adhere to the words already agreed to and resist this Amendment. I entirely repudiate the suggestion that the Government are not as much in favour of higher education as anybody else and I ask the Committee to adhere to the proposal of the Government, because I believe that our words will give greater power than those suggested by the hon. Member.
  MR. BRYCEsaid he could not see that the words proposed were in any way limiting. They were rather expansive. The President of the Local Government Board appeared to think that this Amendment was inconsistent with that which was passed last night, but really that was not so. The Amendment agreed to last night left it to the local authorities to consider the needs of the locality and confer with the Board of

  1533
  Education upon the subject. The Amendment of his hon. friend indicated some of those needs, but it did not exclude others. The local authorities would be in a better position if this Amendment were passed, because they would have an indication of the will of Parliament with regard to the matter sailed to their attention. The Board of Education also would be much strengthened if it was able to point to the Act and say—"These are the subjects which Parliament thinks fit for your attention, and they are to be dealt with by you." It was really complementary. The Government claimed for this Hill that one of its chief objects was to bring about the co-ordination of elementary and secondary education. There was one matter in which the two branches were in close touch, and that was the training of teachers; but he was afraid that that was a matter which the local authority would neglect unless they were instructed to attend to it. In his view, the Bill was entirely inadequate if it did not give far more specific directions to the local authority.
  SIR MICHAEL FOSTERsaid the Amendment seemed to him to have two parts. One was a more exact definition of "other than elementary education." He preferred the wider definition, and so far as he could see, these words included all forms of education. He had the greatest reluctance to keep alive distinctions between the different forms of education, and it was his hope that within a measurable space of time the hard and fast distinction now drawn between elementary and the higher forms of education would disappear. Therefore he could not support that part of the Amendment. With the other part of the Amendment he had the fullest sympathy. He considered one of the most important matters was to co-ordinate the different forms of education, and he conceived the House was not going beyond its duty when it definitely recommended, as one of the important duties of the new authority, the co-ordination of education, so that the waste of educational energy which was one of the greatest evils of the present time should be diminished as
  1534
  far as possible. He would, therefore willingly support the second part of the Amendment, as well as that part of it which dealt with the training of teachers. That was undoubtedly a great want of the present time He suggested to the hon. Member that he should withdraw the first part of the Amendment, which was really only a quibble as to terms and only submit the latter part.
  DR. MACNAMARAthought that as the obligation was to be laid upon the local authorities to consider the needs of higher education and to consult with the Board of Education, those authorities might very fairly turn round and ask for a definition of higher education. The words at present were "other than elementary," and the Vice-President had said he could not do more, because, if a categorical list were made out, many subjects would probably be omitted. But the right hon. Gentleman was not imbued with the same difficulty in 1896, because in Clause 12 of the Bill of that year there was a list of subjects, running through the letters A to G of the alphahet, and no objection, so far as he knew, was taken to it. He agreed that there ought to be no hard and fast line, but he could not help remembering that during the last year or two grave difficulties had arisen in consequence of a lack of definition. The difficulties recently created in the Law Courts had all arisen because of the failure of the Act of 1870 to provide a definition. There were a number of definitions in the various parts of the Bill. First of all, higher education would include technical education. There would be no difficulty about that, as the municipal authorities had been doing that work for some years. Then it would include all secondary education, and there a difficulty would arise at once. The local authorities had not been doing any classical or modern secondary education, and if this clause were left in its present nebulous form, with the "Cockertons" very active in the educational world, many local authorities would feel that it was a dangerous matter to take up, and, in order to be quite safe, they would leave it alone. With regard to science and

  1535
  art instruction they would be on perfectly safe ground, but then came the training of teachers. That was a new duty; they would not know exactly how the law stood, and rather than risk landing themselves in the Courts, many timorous authorities would leave that branch untouched. A more serious matter still was the training of pupil teachers. That matter was before the Courts at present. It was difficult to say who was responsible for that duty, but it had always been understood to be the elementary school authority. It was very desirable that the local authorities should know distinctly whether or not it was to be their duty to provide for the training of pupil teachers. Night-school work also came within the term "higher education" in the Bill. But probably 75 per cent. of night-school work was purely elementary, and as these local authorities would be composed of persons of common sense, they would very likely refuse to go on with the work because of its elementary character. While, therefore, he sympathised with the view of the hon. Member for London University, he thought it was essential that higher education should be defined so far as possible, so that the local authorities should know what they might and what they might not do.
  MR. HENRY HOBHOUSEsaid the hon. Member for London University had drawn a very proper distinction from two portions of the Amendment. There might be a difference of opinion on the part dealing with the question of definition, and on the whole he thought it better to accept the somewhat vague words in the Bill. But the second part raised a very different question. The word "shall" ran counter to the agreement arrived at on the previous night, and required the substitution of the word "to" if the lines of the compromise were to be followed. The Government would, however, improve the Bill by adding some reference to the organisation and co-ordination of all forms of education. As to the training of teachers, that was not included in the ordinary meaning of "education," and it was desirable that the local authorities should have some indication that that was intended
  1536
  to be a part of their duty. Unless the condition of the Government aid were made much more liberal, however, every local authority could not be expected to set up a training college, but they could do a great deal in the way of classes, pupil teacher centres, and scholarships.
  SIR EDWARD GREYquite agreed that if the compromise of the previous night was to be followed, the word "to" ought to be substituted for the word "shall." if the Government would accept the Amendment somewhat in that form, he thought it would be a most valuable addition to the Bill. The importance of the question raised by the Amendment was shown by the speech of the hon. Member for London University. Some of them were anxious that the Bill should form the beginning of a real system of national education, and that was the object the Amendment had in view. The hon. Member for London University very rightly desired to see all distinctions between elementary, secondary, and higher education done away with. The Amendment was using the Bill in that direction. It was true the Bill named different kinds of education, but that was in order that they might be co-ordinated, and a way made for a really national system. He suggested that if the Government would accept the proposed Amendment, it would make the arrangement of the previous day more complete, and considerably add to the value of the clause.
  MR. WALTER LONGsaid that the difference between hon. Members who desired an Amendment of this proposal and the Government, was not really a difference in principle. They were all agreed as to what it was that they wanted, but the views of the Government were that the words of the Bill were wider even than the Amendment, and there was no doubt as to their meaning. The hon. Member for North Camberwell asked who would carry on the night schools, but it was quite clear that the education authority would be able to do this. The hon. Member also suggested that there was a doubt whether the local authority would be able to provide

  1537
  technical education, but that was not the opinion of the advisers of the Government who contended that the words of the Bill included all that was necessary for education other than elementary. Therefore there was no difference in regard to principle between the Government and hon. Gentlemen opposite. The proposal now made was in distinct opposition to the Amendment of last might, which left everything to the local authorities. They were now commanded to inquire, and it was left to their discretion to act, and from that arrangement the Government could not depart. If it was simply a question of clearing up a doubt, or making something self evident, it would be different, but the present issue before the House was a totally different one, and if the Government accepted it, (hat would be a clear departure from what was laid down last night.
  MR. MATHERsaid that his Amendment was conceived purely in a spirit of making the Bill provide a better and a truly national system of education. In some of the smaller boroughs the local authorities would be constituted the authorities for secondary education, and for that reason he desired that in this Bill the Board of Education should keep a considerable control over the methods they would pursue when they had a larger authority than at present, namely, that of including secondary education and higher education in the character of the education which they at present conducted. There was a great waste of money in the manner in which the Technical Instruction Acts were now carried out, and this arose more from the want of ability than the desire to do right, because the localities had not bad the experience and the knowledge which was necessary. It was because he wished the Board of Education to be made cognisant of what was going on that he wished to include in the Bill words which would sketch out a certain plan by which local education authorities might prepare their schemes and be able with the help of the Board of Education to carry out those schemes. It had been said that the words "other than elementary education" provided for all that was required. There were
  1538
  many non-County Boroughs where they had in the past spent a very small amount of money beyond that which was derived from the local taxation account. Over the whole of England, including Wales, only about £100,000 per annum was being devoted to higher education under the Technical Instruction Act. That would give the Committee some idea as to what extent these bodies would be likely to tax themselves under the new Act. He thought they ought, in the smallest communities, to provide that there should be a school for higher education. He was afraid that it would be impossible under this Bill to obtain in small communities the higher instruction which ought to form part of the education of the smallest community in the land, it had been suggested by the hon. Member for East Somerset that if the word "to" were introduced instead of "shall" it would satisfy the Government. They were grateful to the Government for improving the Bill, and although his Amendment dealt with a serious matter, he was perfectly willing to accept the suggestion of the hon. Member for East Somerset.
  MR. WALTER LONGsaid that, as he understood, the hon. Member wished to amend the proposal by inserting "to" instead of "shall." He wished to point out that this Amendment would apply to county authorities, but they would have no jurisdiction in the autonomous areas within their own districts. The non-county boroughs would be autonomous in regard to elementary education. He was also advised that the words of the Bill covered, without question or doubt, the proper training of teachers as a necessary part of education other than elementary. Hon. Members opposite were apprehensive that the words were not clear enough. He was loth to accept the Amendment even in an a mended form, but he thought it was a great pity that they should go on debating this point at great length when there was so little difference between them. He had no objection to accept the word "to" instead of "shall," but he could not take the responsibility of accepting the Amendment in regard to the co-ordination of all forms of education, because he thought that would lay upon the

  1539
  county authorities duties which they would be unable to perform. If the hon. Gentleman would regard that concession as meeting him, he thought the Committee might accept this suggestion and deal with the question in that way.
  MR. MATHERsaid he understood that so far as the suggestion of his hon. friend was concerned the Government would accept the word "to" instead of "shall." He would point out to the right hon. Gentleman that without the words proposed in the Amendment they could not work the Bill. The local authority would not be the one authority. There would be an autonomous authority for primary education and an autonomous authority for secondary education. Co-ordination and organisation must be applied in those cases. He asked the right hon. Gentleman to consider the Amendment from that point of view.
  MR. WALTER LONGsaid that he rose to state exactly what the suggestion of the Government was, with the view of bringing this discussion to a close. If that end would be secured the Government would be willing to accept words that would not involve a departure from what was arranged last night. They could not possibly accept the words "organisation and co-ordination" in the face of the advice they had received. He suggested that after the words "shall consider the needs and take such steps as seem to them desirable"—the words "to supply or aid the supply of all forms of education other than elementary" should be inserted. If there was any doubt as to whether those words included the training of teachers, they might add the words "including the training of teachers." If that would satisfy the hon. Gentleman and bring the discussion to an end, some such words might very well be inserted, but if they were to continue the discussion with the view to other Amendments, the Government would stand by the words in the Clause.
  MR. BRYCEsaid he was rather at a loss to understand how the right hon.
  1540
  Gentleman's suggestion was to meet what his hon. friend desired. It had been the general desire on both sides of the House that the training of teachers should be specifically mentioned. He thought the right hon. Gentleman would not prejudice his Bill if words to that effect were introduced. Would the right hon. Gentleman consider whether such words as these could be introduced—"secondary, technical, and higher education, with the view of providing for the organisation and co-ordination of all forms of education." There would be no Compulsion in that, and it would follow the lines of the Amendment adopted, last night.
  MR. WHITLEYsaid the President of the Local Government Board had raised an objection in this form, that where certain authorities were autonomous in Part III. of the Bill for elementary education, therefore they must co-ordinate education in their area.
  MR. WALTER LONG: No, no.
  MR. WHITLEYsaid the local authority for secondary education were thereby precluded from co-ordinating education in their district. One would be inclined to say, "What about the one authority of the Bill?" but that was not the ground he took. The ground he took was that, even granting there was an autonomous authority for the purpose of elementary education, that elementary education was so defined and limited by the Bill that it formed simply the foundation-stone for the superstructure. It was perfectly in the power of the county authority to take that as a starting-point to co-ordinate all committees of education. He thought his hon. friend the Member for Rossendale would be well, advised to hold to that part of the Amendment which authorised the local? authority to provide for the organisation and co-ordination of all forms of education in their area. He asked the attention of the First Lord of the Treasury to an important point arising out of what the Vice-President said last night, namely, that the phrase, "other than elementary" included university education. The cities of Liverpool and Birmingham had power to impose a penny rate for the purposes of their

  1541
  universities, but if the phrase "other than elementary" remained in this clause, it clearly followed that that would form part of the twopenny rate provided for in the second part of this Bill, and therefore these cities would be seriously circumscribed in their university work. It would be very advisable that any powers for university education should be additional to any provision made under this clause.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he agreed that they ought to be careful not to circumscribe the present powers.
  LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICEsaid he was very anxious that the Committee should arrive at unanimity in this matter. He could quite understand that the President of the Local Government Board was justified in asking that nothing now accepted should be in contravention of the principle laid down last night, namely, that there should be a, certain discretion, but as he read the words suggested by the Member for East Somerset, there was really no departure from that principle at all. These words would still have left certain discretion with regard to action, as distinct from consultation in the local authority, He urged the Government to accept the words proposed by the hon. Member for East Somerset, and if it should be found that there was any technical difficulty in regard to partially exempted areas the matter could be set right when they were considering a number of small matters of finance, or on the Report stage of the Bill.
  MR. CHAPLINsaid that after the concession made the previous night, it would not make much difference if the Amendment in its proposed amended form were accepted; for in his humble judgment the Government had given the whole show away. There were promises that a difference would be made between elementary and secondary education, but it was impossible to contend, taking the Amendment accepted the previous night, that secondary education would not now be practically made compulsory. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no."] Well, that was his view of the situation, and if it were
  1542
  disputed he thought he should be able to demonstrate that he was right. Indeed, if it were not so, what on earth was the meaning of all the speeches that had been made, and why was it that hon. Gentlemen on the opposite side were so delighted? In one respect he regarded it had less disfavour than he otherwise would have done, because it could not fail to strengthen the demand—which would be made when the proper time came—that secondary education should be treated financially as the Government had agreed to treat elementary education.
  SIR EDWARD GREYsaid he agreed with what the right hon. Gentleman had said that he would get much support from that side of the House towards getting more money for secondary education. But he would remind the right hon. Gentleman, in regard to the last part of his speech, that there were two parties in the House—one of which was, he would not say hostile, for that was too strong a word, but unfriendly to the further development of education. This Amendment was in the interests of education, and he was disappointed that just at the moment when it seemed that the Government were going to accept it, at any rate the last sentence of it, which was very important, namely, "for the organisation and coordination of all forms of education" a difficulty had arisen. And what was the difficulty? The difficulty was their own abominable proviso in the first Clause which positively obstructed them at the very moment they had seen their way to make this admirable concession. He did think that organisation and co-ordination of all forms of education were very important, but he did not think that the proviso in the first Clause should stand in the way of their being accepted by the Government. The argument of the Government was that there would be certain excepted areas within the areas of the County Councils, and that, therefore, the County Councils would only have a limited power of organising and co-ordinating. That was to say that there would be certain exceptions, but there might still be co-ordination if the separate authorities within the areas were agreed. If this Amendment was passed with these words retained in it, a lever would be given to the County Councils to go to the separate authorities and say "Will you

  1543
  help us to carry out co-ordination?" Suppose the separate authorities would not consent, then the County Councils would not have any compulsion laid on them in any sense. By this clause of the concession the County Councils would be invited, stimulated and encouraged to co-ordinate with the separate authorities, but not compelled, in regard to all forms of education. The County Councils could not be compelled to do more than it was in their power to do; they would be only invited to use to the utmost the powers given to them under this Bill—the powers limited by the proviso in the first Clause.
  EARL PERCYsaid he did not agree with his right hon. friend the Member for Sleaford that the Government had given away the whole case the previous night. He thought that there was a great difference between words imposing a duty to provide and an exhortation to enquire. The Amendment only said that the local authority should consider the needs of the district and take such steps, after consultation with the Education Department, as might seem to them desirable to aid the supply of education other than elementary. Nothing could be more absurd than to say that without enquiry there could be an effective supervision of secondary education. The only difficulty in the way of accepting the Amendment was that in regard to co-ordination; but it was quite impossible for local authorities to inquire into and consider the needs of a district without taking into consideration how far secondary education was already provided in the district. If the duty of co-ordination was not sufficiently implied in the duty of enquiry, he would suggest that that object might he secured if the hon. Member for Rossendale withdrew his Amendment altogether, and if the Government were to add, at a later stage, to the words introduced the revious night relating to consultation with the Education Department, "And with the local authorities in their area." Then they might safely add the words of the hon. Member for Rosendale in regard to co-ordination and the provision for the training of teachers within their area.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid as he understood the difficulty it undoubtedly was the proviso in the first Clause which had taken it out of the power of the County Councils to organize primary education in the autonomous areas. But that did not apply to co-ordination. It might meet the difficulty if words were inserted in the Amendment to make it read:—
  "The local authority should consider the needs of the district and take such steps, after consultation with the Education Department, to supply or aid in supplying education other than elementary, including the training of teachers within their area,"
  and then to proceed to make provision for the co-ordination of all forms of education. That would meet the view of the hon. Member for Rosendale.
  MR. BARTLEYsaid he would be very sorry if some such words as "the organization and co-ordination of all forms of education" were not in the Clause. It seemed to him that these words were the most important in the whole scheme of the Bill. What they were trying to do was to get the schools organised on a very efficient system seeing the chronic state of inefficiency at the present time. If the Clause ran "other than elementary, and shall proceed to the organization and co-ordination of all forms of education, including the training of teachers," but leaving out the words "within the area," that would, he thought, solve the problem.
  MR. HELMEsaid he would support the Amendment, because it was a recognition that there should be co-ordination. He represented the case of the non-county boroughs. It would be remembered how the Cockerton Judgment had upset the arrangements which had been made by the School Boards under the sanction of the Education Department, it was necessary that the utmost precautions should be taken that the words of the clause should clearly express the intention of Parliament. When Mr. Goschen was speaking on that, the whiskey money in this House, he gave it as his opinion that the non-county boroughs would receive their share of that money, just the same as the other boroughs. But when the

  1545
  Bill was passed it was found that that was not so, and that for the purpose of sharing that money the non-county boroughs became part of the county. He would point out that in the non-county boroughs the work of the evening continuation schools had been excellently carried on and that they should be able to make arrangements with the local authorities in the county boroughs to take part in a scheme of co-ordination.
  MR. BONDsaid he agreed that it would be desirable to include in the Bill the power of the local education authorities to provide training colleges for teachers; but he thought the Amendment of the hon. Member for Rosendale did not accomplish that object. It provided for the co-ordination of all forms of instruction, including training colleges; but it did not provide for the institution of training colleges which did not now exist. He thought, having regard to the difficulties that had arisen, it would be better to leave out "organisation" and that the Committee should confine itself to "co-ordination." If the form of words were adopted by the Government it would be done with the entire assent of the Committee. He expressed his willingness to accept the form of words suggested. He hoped the Committee would influence the Government to accept these words. He accepted the view of the Government that "secondary technical and higher education" might be struck out.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the Committee were agreed in substance, and he suggested that the words should run as follows:—
  "The local education authority shall consider the needs, and take such steps as seem to them desirable, after consultation with the Board of Education, to supply or aid the supply of education other than elementary, including the training of teachers and the general co-ordination of all forms of education."
  There was no different opinion on either side of the House. They all wanted the teachers trained, and the matter resolved itself into a question of drafting. He was not quite sure about the drafting, but, if there was any error of a drafting character, it might be put right on Report.
  MR. JAMES LOWTHERhoped his right hon. friend would not forget the financial aspect of the statement, because under this Amendment it might be possible to exceed in expenditure the desire of the ratepayers.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: No, that is not so.
  MR. JAMES LOWTHERsaid he certainly thought that this Amendment placed in the hands of the Central Authorities of London a power of compelling expenditure whether the local authorities liked it or not. Did he understand that the local authorities would be in a position to defend the ratepayer's pockets when they themselves were against the expenditure?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Yes.
  MR. JAMES LOWTHERsaid of course if that were so it would remove a great deal of his objection to these particular words.
  MR. BRYCEsaid he did not think these words were very convenient. The phrase was not a happy one, but he agreed that it was better to leave this matter to the authority.
  [Mr. MATHER'S Amendment was withdrawn, and the Amendment suggested by Mr. A. J. BALFOUR was agreed to.]
  MR. CHANNINGsaid he desired to move an Amendment which he hoped the Government would be able to accept without difficulty. The Amendment unfortunately had been dropped out of the Paper owing to some error of the printers, but it would read as follows—
  "After the words last inserted to insert 'and may make application to the Board of Education or to the Charity Commissioners, as the case may he, for the establishment or amendment of Schemes for the regulation of educational endowments and—'"
  Those familiar with this question would perfectly remember that this was provided for in the 17th Clause of the Bill the Government introduced in 1896. His Amendment was

  1547
  identical in principle with that, and therefore he hoped those words might be inserted. The Education Committee Report also recommended that these powers should be given. It might of course be urged that these powers were implied by the wording of the Bill, but as the Government had in a previous Bill introduced powers of this kind, he thought it would only be reasonable to accept this Amendment.
  THE VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE COMMITTEE OF COUNCIL ON EDUCATION (Sir JOHN GORST,)was understood to say that he thought the wording of the Bill was quite sufficient for this purpose, and therefore He could see no reason for putting in these powers. As the Bill now stood, the local authority would have undoubted right to apply to the Board of Education or the Charity Commissioners.
  LORD EDMUND FLTZMAURICEexpressed the opinion that this was a more important matter than the right hon. Gentleman quite understood. So far as he gathered, the position at the present moment was that any public body could make a communication if it chose, but that was not what was asked for. These powers should go beyond writing a letter; the local authorities should be what was called "interested parties" and be entitled to set the machinery of the Charity Commissioners in motion. At the same time there was no doubt that the Committee was under the disadvantage of discussing an Amendment which, through accident, had dropped off the Paper, and this was not the best place in the Bill to bring forward this question. He would appeal to his hon. friend to withdraw it. There were other Amendments raising the question on Clause 15; he himself had one in the form of a new clause; and he was inclined to think, if it was intended to follow the example of the Bill of 1896, which had a very useful clause of this description, that a new clause would be the best way to raise the question. He would remind his hon. friend that the Welsh Intermediate Education authorities, under the Bill of 1889, were given these powers in an entirely separate clause.
  1548
  And to mix these powers up with another clause would be rather unfortunate. At the outset it was evident that it was a misunderstanding, because the right hon. Gentleman himself had mistaken the character of the Amendment. For these reasons he hoped the Government would consider the matter before Clause 15 was reached, and bring in a new clause analogous to that in the Bill of 1896.
  THE CHAIRMAN: Perhaps after what has fallen from the noble Lord the hon. Gentleman will withdraw his Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. BOND,who had on the Paper an Amendment proposing to give power to the local education authority to "establish scholarships and exhibitions to be held in places of education other than public elementary schools," said he did not intend to move it, as the First Lord of the Treasury had promised to consider the matter at a later stage of the Bill.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he entirely sympathised with the object of his hon. friend, but he thought this was not the clause in which it could be met. If there were any doubt as to the power of the local education authority to provide these scholarships, he would take care that the doubt was put an end to at the proper stage.
  MR. HUMPHREYS-OWEN MR. HUMPHREYS-OWEN (Montgomeryshire)> moved an Amendment to enable the local education authority to
  "Make inquiries with respect, to the sanitary condition of the school buildings, including boarding houses, of any school within their county."
  MR. BRYCEhad a doubt as to whether this matter should be dealt with by an Amendment at the present point or brought up in a new clause, but there was no doubt as to its great importance. Everyone who knew the condition of the schools in the country knew that very often they were in an insanitary state. There was nothing of which we had more reason to be proud in recent years than the greater

  1549
  vigilance with which we dealt with sanitary problems, and endeavoured to provide for the health of those who, through ignorance, carelessness, or poverty, did not take care of it for themselves. Such an inspection as that proposed by his hon. friend was supported by the report of the Secondary Education Commission, and, while he did not ask the Government to accept the Amendment as moved, he desired to emphasise the great importance of the matter, and to say that it would be left in a most unsatisfactory condition if the local authorities were not given power to deal with the sanitary condition of schools.
  MR. WALTER LONGsaid that nobody would deny the desirability of schools or any other buildings in which human beings dwelt being in a sanitary condition. He hoped, however, the Committee would not accept the Amendment as moved, because he believed it would be much more likely to lead to conflict and difficulty than to do good. It was not the duty, and it was not desirable that it should be made the duty, of the new education authority to act as the sanitary authority of the district in which a school was situated. There was already a sanitary authority with full powers, but whether it would have power to make the special inspection referred to was another matter. Even though it was desirable that schools should be subjected to this particular inspection, the present was not the place in the Bill in which to introduce the new power; it should be the subject of a subsequent clause by itself. He hoped, however, that no attempt would be made to mix up the powers with regard to sanitary matters. The sanitary authorities had officers properly qualified for the work, and if it was desirable that there should be a special inspection from the sanitary point of view, it should be the work of the sanitary authority of the district and not of the County Council. The hon. Member proposed to throw upon County Councils the duty of inspecting the sanitary condition of all schools within their area, and to declare whether or not they were properly equipped as regarded cubic space, drains, and so on. That could be done efficiently only by an
  1550
  inspector who was not only able to visit once or twice a year, but to make repeated visits, and especially surprise visits. If this was to be done by the County Council it would mean an enormous increase of staff, and consequently a considerable increase in the cost of administering the Act. If any such fresh powers were to be conferred, he hoped the Committee would decide to confer them upon the sanitary authorities rather than the County Councils.
  LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICEagreed that this matter could be better raised in a new Clause, but if the proposal was in some way added to the Bill the machinery would be very simple. It was the duty of the local medical officer to inspect the schools the same as other buildings in the district, and the result of the present proposal would, be that the County Council, as the education authority, would simply have to instruct its own officer to supervise and check the work of the local officer, just as it did now in regard to certain matters. There was also such an officer as the county surveyor, within whose department these questions of cubic space and so on would fall. Moreover, tinder the present Bill, the County Council had already the power of supervising elementary schools in regard to these matters. He thought, therefore, the difficulties had been rather exaggerated, but he agreed it would be better to bring the matter up in a new Clause.
  MR. HUMPHREYS-OWENasked leave to withdraw the Amendment, on the understanding that he might bring up a new Clause.
  MR. WALTER LONGsaid that if the hon. Member brought up a new Clause the Government would consider it, but he could not undertake the responsibility of bringing up a Clause himself.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. MATHERsaid the Amendment he was about to move was one of a large number having the same object. It would be more satisfactory to the education authorities, when they undertook the work under the Bill, if they had a definite sum on which they could

  1551
  depend without any charge on the rates for the purpose of efficiently discharging their educational duties. If the Government intended to concede the point, it would not be necessary to argue the question, but he might mention that, of the total amount of the whisky money—about £900,000—a portion had been capitalised in some of the larger county boroughs in the form of large expenditure on the building of central technical schools, which not only afforded educational facilities for the surrounding area, but were visited, in some instances, by students from Germany and other Continental countries. That part of the money was gone for ever. As to the maintenance of night classes and other matters, many local authorities had entered into arrangements of a permanent character, and unless this excise money was absolutely secured under the Bill, these authorities would always have hanging over their heads a doubt as to whether the money might not, at some time, be diminished. Even in the small centres of population it was quite certain that a very huge sum of money in addition to that spent on technical education would be required, and a sum far greater that the rate of 2d. in the £, which the County Council already had the right of imposing upon the ratepayers. In the interests of education, and in view of what they had to do to provide sufficient technical and secondary education, it was important that it should be made compulsory that the Councils should spend this whisky money, and then come upon the rates for the balance which this amount would not cover. A 1d. rate levied over the whole of England would amount to £700,000 per annum, therefore, a 2d. rate would produce £1,400,000. If that amount was raised there would he, with the grant of £900,000 from the Exchequer, which was announced last night, and the whisky money, and the Science and Art grant, something over £3,000,000 available for secondary, technical, and higher education, if the sum stipulated for in the Bill was made permanent. He was not now prepared to say whether a rate of 2d. in the £ would be sufficient, but it was sufficient at any rate for some considerable time, and with £3,000,000 a good start could be made.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 1, line 19, to leave out the word 'may' and insert the word 'shall."'—(Mr. Mather.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'may' stand part of the clause."
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid it would be absurd to contend that it was vital to the scheme of the Government that the Bill should remain in its present shape. Although personally he should support the Clause as it stood, because he believed that it added to their resources, He proposed to leave it to the Committee to decide this point. They had added to the resources of the local authority as regarded elementary education, they had given them the technical instruction money, and last night they gave them a clear indication that they ought not to give the go-by to secondary education. He thought himself that that was enough, but he hoped the Committee would deal with the matter perfectly independently.
  LORD EDMUND EITZMAURICEsaid he was glad to learn that the Committee were to have a perfectly free hand. Two important bodies were brought in who were interested in this question—he alluded to the Municipal Corporations Associations and the County Councils Associations both of which were concerned with county and municipal affairs. Both those bodies had carried resolutions in favour of the substitution of "shall" instead of "may." His hon. friend the Member for the Tewkesbury Division of Gloucestershire had told the Committee that it was the duty of the House to allow a portion of the money popularly known as the whisky money to be used in relief of the rates. It simply meant that if Parliament, after full discussion, altered the financial arrangements in a certain Bill, therefore they should consider that the true intention of Parliament was to be found in the shape in which the proposal was introduced, and not in the shape in which it received the royal assent. Upon the last occasion when the hon. Baronet the Member for the Tewkesbury Division tried to win over the hearts of the County Councils Association, he only got one supporter.
  SIR JOHN DORINGTONsaid he rather traversed the position taken up by the noble Lord the Member for the Cricklade Division, because for a whole session the House was under the impression, much to the satisfaction of the local authorities, that £390,000 was being placed at their disposal for the relief of their rates. Nobody then had any idea that it was going to be changed until within two days of the end of the session, not knowing what to do with another sum which became available, and not knowing that the sum available was going to be exactly double the amount, this new proposal was made. Mr. Acland himself put upon the Paper an Amendment that one half should be applied to education, and to that he did not think anybody objected at the time, except that it was rather scouted in the debate that £390 000 would be of much use for such a purpose. Mr. Goschen—now Lord Goschen—said he thought that they might very well trust the Councils in this matter, and so the Clause was framed as it now stood. Those were the circumstances under which he rightly or wrongly had advised his county to devote the money to the relief of the rates, and not from any hostility to the principle. The ratepayers were entitled to this money, but they found that had they applied the whole of the money to technical education they could not have done any more good to the ratepayers. It was this theory which had rather destroyed the useful application of this money, in many counties they had dribbled tins money away in little dabs which were absolutely useless. What he contended was that it was extremely bad finance to say that anybody should spend a definite sum of money, whether it was required or not, on a particular object. That should be left to the discretion of the body administering the money, He was looking over the accounts of another county a few days ago, and he found that they had applied the whole of this money for technical education. They had spent it in every sort of way and there had been great waste. If this House would leave the
  1554
  local authorities to use this money in their own way it would be by far the best way of managing the finances for education.
  MR. BRYCEsaid that so far as He understood his hon. friend's Amendment, it was that the County Councils had considered that they had some sort of right and interest in the money and that they had travelled out of their way to use it in an improper manner to different purposes from that for which it was intended. Surely the reply was that the money should be definitely devoted to secondary education, in which case the temptation to which his hon. friend referred would disappear. Then the money would not be allocated for the relief of the ratepayers, and the local authority would be free to devote it to a definite Parliamentary purpose. His hon. friend said it was bad finance to allocate a particular sum to a particular purpose. If he understood the hon. Member's argument, it was that a definite sum should not be given to a particular purpose, because the needs of that purpose might be greater or less at any particular time, and that, therefore, the amount ought to be adapted to the needs of the time. That would be a sound argument in some eases, but he did not think it applied in this instance, because it was perfectly certain that the needs of technical and secondary education would greatly exceed the sum the local authorities would receive. It was perfectly clear that the local authorities would have to spend a larger sum if they were to do their duty than what was known as the drink money would give them in each year. Therefore the argument of his hon. friend appeared to fall to the ground. The First Lord of the Treasury had taken the very unusual, and, he must say, very satisfactory, course of expressing himself as having an absolutely open mind on the subject. The Government were taking a peculiar course in this matter. The year before last they proposed to devote the money entirely to secondary and technical education. This year they proposed that it should not be so devoted, but left to the discretion of the local authority, and now at the Committee stage the right hon. Gentleman told them that neither the first nor the second thoughts were to be followed, but the third thoughts, which were to leave the

  1555
  matter to the House. In these circumstances he hoped hon. Members would not have much difficulty in coming to a conclusion. Three arguments were conclusively in favour of the Amendment. The first was that it was undesirable to leave the destination of the money indefinite; the second was that the most progressive County Councils had already applied the money in the manner desired by his hon. friend; and the third was that no one who knew what the needs of secondary and technical education were, could deny that more money would be needed.
  MR. JAMES LOWTHERsaid the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Aberdeen had gone far beyond what the facts warranted in regard to the whisky money. He thought it was clear that the intention of Parliament, speaking broadly, was that one-half of the money should go to the relief of the ratepayers at large, while the other half was more or less ear-marked for educational purposes, though it was distinctly provided that the County Councils could, if they thought fit, apply the whole towards the relief of the rates. Not-withstanding that, it was quite true that educational enthusiasts—he used no stronger word—had in many places applied all this money to technical instruction so-called, and deprived the ratepayers of the pecuniary advantage which Parliament intended them to derive from the application of at least half of the money to relief of the rates. In many cases the money had been scandalously misapplied. It had not been used in a way that would advance the rising generation of their localities in the avocations they would naturally follow. The way in which the money had been squandered had disgusted the ratepayers. The Committee were now asked to invoke the aid of the central authority, not for the purpose of controlling expenditure and protecting the ratepayer, but for the purpose of hounding on the local bodies to spend as much money as they could. They often heard in that House lamentations over the extravagant tendencies of the day, and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Monmouthshire frequently drew their attention to the times of Sir Robert Peel and Mr.
  1556
  Gladstone, who were staunch economists. But now no one, not even so sound a member of the body politic ias his right hon. friend the Member for Dartford, would lift one finger in favour of the oppressed ratepayer and the downtrodden taxpayer. This was no small matter. Upwards of twelve millions annually was placed at the discretion of the Education Department and the local educational authorities, and the cry was still for more. Whatever money Parliament granted from the National Exchequer or allowed to be expended from local rates ought to be jealously supervised, whereas on the contrary no attempt whatever was made to curtail local extravagance. He did not know what would have been said by the old economist of the past who protested invariably against even necessary expenditure for the protection of this country. Some of the hon. Members now before him had taken part in divisions with the object of cutting down the Army by a few thousand men, and had advocated economies which were petty when compared with the millions the Committee were now asked to aid the local authorities in squandering without any kind of supervision or control. In fact, these important provisions regarding expenditure involving many millions annually were being left to the mercy of a chance division, without any guidance from the Government which was responsible for the large inroads which it was proposed to make upon public funds. Of course, he was prepared to accept the view that reasonable facilities ought to be offered so far as elementary education was concerned; but as regarded so-called higher education, he believed that private enterprise, which it was proposed to drive out of the field by national competition, had done its work well. He happened himself to represent a constituency where the scholastic element was very strong, and where there were perhaps more schools of a higher class than in any other constituency, to which the sons and daughters of persons resident in distant parts of the kingdom were drawn by the combined attraction of a high-class education and healthy, bracing air. The State was going to enter into competition in a very unfair manner with the owners and conductors of those schools, who had been performing a very useful work. He protested against the utter recklessness

  1557
  with which the financial proposals of the Government in connection with this Bill were being received.
  SIR EDWARD GREYsaid that when he had made an interjection, of which the right hon. Gentleman who had just sat down took notice, he did not mean in any way to reflect on the character of his constitutents. What was in his mind was whether the right hon. Gentleman had entirely taken his scholastic constituents into his confidence in regard to secondary education. He understood that the right hon. Gentleman went on a little further, and said that the scholastic arrangements in his constituency were very greatly the result of private effort and local endowments.
  MR. JAMES LOWTHERsaid they were almost wholly private adventure schools.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: Well, relying on their own resources and not being dependent on the State. That was all very well a generation or two ago, but other nations had done differently. However good these private adventure schools might be, they stood in the way of the establishment of a national system of secondary education. The right hon. Gentleman seemed to be hankering after another state of affairs, in which some day we might have a land where there would be no education and no rates. Now, there was a good deal to be said for that view in that education was troublesome and rates were burdensome, but when once we had no education and no rates—
  MR. JAMES LOWTHERsaid that what he thought was that it was reasonable that the State should provide purely elementary education, but no more, and that no charge should be laid upon the rates.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: Well, no higher education and no rates. Rut we were now only at the beginning of higher education. Assuming, however, that the condition the right hon. Gentleman desired—of elementary education but no higher education and no rates—was one that would be enjoyable, it had ceased to be possible. We had got to make our living in the world in competition with other nations, and we
  1558
  must have higher education, whether we thought it a desirable thing or not. Considering, therefore, that the need of higher education was so pressing, the money at our disposal should be turned into channels to be devoted to higher education. It had been said that the whisky money had been badly applied. The hon. Member for the Tewkesbury Division said that it had been applied in driblets, and that because the sum was so small and the need so great, they could make no progress with higher education. But that was the reason why it was desirable to ear-mark a, particular sum to be used in conjunction with other sums for the promotion of higher education. He would urge upon the Committee to take that fact into consideration, and that the First Lord of the Treasury had left this an open question. Two principal grants were made for education, and they should ensure that the money so given to the local authorities was used for the purposes intended by Parliament. The surest way to waste money was to give it wholesale in relief of rates, as had been pointed out in the case of the police grants. The true principle was to select something which was of a national character, with a national purpose about it, and let the central authority see that that purpose was efficiently carried out by the local authorities. He believed that when this particular grant was given to the local authorities it was with the intention that some of it should be applied in relief of the rates; but they should regard that money as the first instalment of an endowment of the higher education. He would point out to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sleaford, who was asking more aid from the Exchequer, that here was his opportunity if the local authorities were really desirous of doing their duty towards higher education, it seemed to him that it made very little difference whether this money was to be given in relief of rates or to the promotion of higher education, unless it was assumed that the new local education authority would do nothing at all for higher education. Surely after all they had heard of what had been done in other countries in regard to higher education, they should not be afraid that as much should be done in our own land.
  MR. CHAPLINsaid that the hon. Baronet the Member for Berwick seemed to have curious ideas as to what was money in the Treasury. Certainly this money was originally granted for the Treasury, but at present it was put at the disposal of the ratepayers; and was it to be taken away from them? The hon. Gentleman and others on the opposite side of the House seemed almost intentionally to distort the reason for which he and his friends opposed this Bill. They had no objection to higher education. [Opposition ironical laughter.] He was not speaking for his right hon. friend the Member for Thanet. On the contrary, he was as much in favour of higher education as the hon. Gentleman opposite himself. Where they differed was as to where the resources for higher education were to come from. Why was one class to pay for an object which they and everyone else admitted was a national concern? But that was what was pro posed by this Bill, and it was for that reason that he and his friends intended to oppose it by every means in their power. He congratulated the right hon. Member for East Fife on the acumen he showed when he told the Committee that the First Lord of the Treasury was evidently anxious to have his hand forced on this question. The right hon. Gentleman divined the First Lord's intention much more accurately than he had done. The Leader of the House said that this was to be an open question, for which his whips were to be withdrawn, and on which the Committee was to vote exactly as it liked. [Opposition Cheers.] It was natural enough that hon. Gentleman opposite should cheer, but having regard to all the pledges that had been given to Members on this subject this was hardly the treatment they expected. This was a proposal which would lose to the ratepayers, if the Amendment was carried, the sum of £390,000. The day before, with great generosity, the First Lord came forward with the great announcement that the Government were prepared to make the concession of a grant to the ratepayers of £900,000. And yet, if this Amendment was carried, and for which every facility was being given—for it must be remembered that if the right hon. Gentleman desired to keep the Bill as it stood, he had only to send his whips to the top of the Table—it would take away nearly half of what the right hon.
  1560
  Gentleman had promised them the day before. He would leave it to the right hon. Gentleman to say how far that was consistent with the pledges he had given.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: What pledges?
  MR. CHAPLIN: Does the right hon. Gentleman deny that he and I and many others have given pledges to give what relief we can to the rates, and especially in regard to agricultural land?
  MR A. J. BALFOUR: My right hon. friend is under an extraordinary delusion. I explained to the House, and to him, that the form in which the proposal was brought in by the Government last year, was a compulsory form. I myself prefer the present form. There has never been any disguise that it is a most difficult and doubtful question, and I do not disagree with my right hon. friend in liking to see the rates diminished.
  MR. CHAPLINsaid that ever since 1895 they had been urging that relief should be given to agricultural rates.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: My right hon. friend is really under a delusion. If he will cast his mind back he will find that he himself was responsible in 1896 for tins very proposal.
  MR. CHAPLINsaid he did not remember the proposal his right hon. friend referred to. If his right hon. friend said that, he was afraid that they must agree to differ in opinion. But how was it consistent with the appointment of the Royal Commission? That Commission recommended that education, technical and secondary as well as elementary, should be treated as a national service, but how was it being treated now? Was it treating it as a, national service to take away from the ratepayers the relief of £390,000, which they enjoyed at the present time? He did not know that it was. What he was about to say, in conclusion, was that he honestly approached this question with the intention and desire, subject to what he held to be a fair settlement with regard to the question of policy, to bring it to a successful conclusion. If

  1561
  they were to see the interests of the ratepayers sacrificed in order to find favour with the views of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite, be did not think it would be in the direction in which his right hon. friend would be likely to find support from those who sat on the Government side of the House. It was only a question of money and where the money was to come from, and even right hon. Members on the Front Bench could not say there was any difficulty on that score, seeing that the money which they had at their disposal could not have disappeared at the present time.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he was not in the habit of defending the present Government, but he certainly could not see what complaint the right hon. Gentleman who had just spoken had with regard to this matter. All that the Government hadd one was to leave the Committee to decide this question. He was sorry the Government did not adopt that attitude oftener. He could understand their not doing so on great matters of principle, but with regard to subsidiary matters he thought the House should be allowed to consider the questions on their merits. He agreed with the right hon. Member for Thanet that a great deal of the whiskey money spent on technical education had been wasted, but it had been wasted because the County Councils of England had only subsidised an occasional science school and an occasional lectureship. They had not considered thoroughly any scheme for the expenditure of the money on a systematic basis. In Wales, on the other hand, the money had been spent on education, and the people in addition had taxed themselves to the extent of a halfpenny rate and had also got an equivalent grant. In Wales it was impossible to point to a single case in which the money had been wasted. Wales had a good system and had not been extravagant or wasteful. The Committee must remember that at present education had been a purely subsidiary duty of the County Councils. A certain sum was handed over for educational purposes; but in the future education would be their primary duty. There was not a tithe of the amount
  1562
  spent upon anything they did that they would have to spend on education. The whole of the education of the counties would be in their charge. They would have a better class of men and better committees and better export advice throughout the country, and the result would be that the money would be better spent than at present. The hon. Member for the Tewkesbury Division objected very strongly to spending the whole of the money on education. He said he could net see how it could all be spent. If the hon. Member had read the Education Report upon the secondary education of Switzerland he would have no difficulty in understanding it. In the Canton of Berne, with a population about equal to Gloucestershire, they had 72 secondary schools and 5 colleges for the training of teachers, all the money for which came, out of the taxation of the Canton. In Gloucestershire most of the money came from Imperial sources, and, comparing a poor country like Switzerland with a rich country like Gloucestershire, he thought the hon. baronet ought to be ashamed to advance such an argument simply because he had spent £7,000 in subsidising a few butter factories.
  MR. JASPER MOREsaid his county represented 860,000 acres, and in that county they had lately spent £80,000 on one school and 60,000 on another, and there was still £100,000 to be spent on secondary education. He dwelt on the difficulties of spending the whiskey money on secondary education in such a county as that, so that the results might be accessible to all the inhabitants. The farmers would probably form a contemptuous opinion of secondary education if they saw the money spent on itinerant lectures. He asked for some guidance as to the manner in which the proceeds of a twopenny rate and the whisky money should be expended in a county such as Shropshire.
  LORD WILLOUGHBY DE ERESBYsaid he was extremely sorry to hear the hon. Member for Carnarvon supporting the Amendment, because he had heard him make a speech—

  1563
  which he thought a most eloquent and admirable speech—in an earlier period of the Bill, in which he praised the County Councils' past work and spoke very much in favour of not limiting their powers. This Amendment, however, did limit their powers. The First Lord of the Treasury had declared that one of the objects of the Bill was to make the County Councils the education authority, responsible to the electors for the policy they pursued. He (Lord Willoughby) was bold enough to state that any Amendment such as the one before the House would have the effect of reducing the power of the County Councils. Why should it not be left to the electors to criticise the policy for themselves? Why should not the County Councils have a fight over this question, and not be dictated to by Parliament as to how they were to spend their money? The County Councils had spent a great deal of the whisky money in technical education to the great advantage of the counties; but from his own small experience he equally knew that a great deal of the money had been absolutely wasted. He believed every hon. Member declared himself in his election address to be in favour of efficiency combined with economy. If this money was spent for efficiency, he was the last man to offer opposition, but he certainly did strike' when it came to sending a man round the villages to give lectures on shorthand. His whole approval of the Bill was based on the ground that the County Council would be made the education authority, and he was in favour of placing the onus of responsibility on that body, and not upon Parliament.
  MR. HENRY HOBHOUSEsaid the hon. Member had made an excellent speech in favour of efficiency and economy, but he believed that this Amendment could be shown to conduce to that. This proposal was contained in two Government Bills in the last six years. What was the proposal? It was made by the Royal Commission appointed some years ago, and generally accepted at the time, and since affirmed and supported by all the educational and and most of the important municipal
  1564
  bodies. The hon. Member for the Tewkesbury Division had been unable on several occasions to persuade the County Councils Association not to lend their support to this proposal at the present time. One hundred county boroughs appropriated the whole of this money, and thirteen appropriated part of this money, to education. The County Council influenced by the hon. Baronet had also recently resolved that the whole of their portion should be so appropriated. The County Councils had taken a limited view of their duties under the Act; they would now have to take an extended view. They would find more opportunity for the legitimate expenditure to which each would have to devote this money. The whole sum of £390,000 was not affected by this Amendment. Not more than £30,000 was affected by this Bill in any way. It was a great advantage to a county body to have a fund definitely appropriated to higher education. At present the fund was in a doubly precarious position. There had been occasions when the Government had abstracted a portion of it. There was also the danger that a County Council elected on a cry of economy might abstract from education money which the previous County Council had devoted to it. As a County Council was elected for only three years, there might be constant reversals of policy, and it would be impossible to establish new scholastic institutions on any permanent basis. It was in the interests of economy as well as of efficiency to have a permanent fund definitely devoted to higher instruction. Horror had been expressed at the fact that a particular county had a year's income in hand. In a county like his own, if they had a year's income in hand they would view the operation of the Act as regarded secondary education with much more equanimity, because there were many institutions which required aid, but they could not be aided unless they had not only such income as was given by the whisky money, but also some reserve income in hand. This was not a question of rating, but of a fund definitely devoted to higher education, and he should heartily support the Amendment.
  EARL PERCYsaid the hon. Member opened his speech by showing that the present Amendment was uncalled for, because County Councils in the majority of instances already did precisely that which it was now sought to make compulsory, and he could not see the logic of the argument that if a local authority had used its discretion wisely it was a reason for taking away that discretion. But his main objection to the Amendment was that it seemed to be quite incompatible with the spirit of the compromise arrived at on the previous night. It could not be denied that those loyal authorities who, up to the present, had been using the whisky money in relief of rates, would be practically compelled by this Amendment to provide higher education out of a now rate. He regretted that the compromise should be broken through in that way, because it would make those who were very anxious as far as possible to meet the views of hon. Gentlemen on the other side, very wary as to how they entered upon any compromise in future.
  DR. MACNAMARAwas greatly obliged to the Government for having left the Committee free to decide how they should vote on this matter. He failed to see what the Amendment bad to do with the previous night's compromise. That the whisky money should be devoted to the purposes of higher education was the unanimous recommendation of the Secondary Education Commission, and he was certainly surprised to hear the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sleaford complain of the action of the Government, because this very proposal was made in the Bill of 1896, on the back of which appeared the name of the right hon. Gentleman himself. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Thanet had done his friends in Kent a serious injustice in saying that they ought not to spend public money on higher education, and that they educated the people beyond their station. As a matter of fact, the people of Kent, to their credit, spent all their £31,000 of the whisky money on education, large portions of it being devoted to instruction in bee keeping, poultry rearing, horticulture, domestic economy, and farriery. It was a curious fact that nearly all the opposition to the proposal came from Members representing localities in which the money
  1566
  was at present being spent for purposes of technical education. Even in Lincolnshire, out of the £14,000 received, £13,000 was spent on education.
  AN HON. MEMBER: Then why not leave it to the people to go on in the same way?
  DR. MACNAMARAsaid they were proposing in the Bill that these authorities should rate themselves for the purposes of elementary education, and in many cases, notwithstanding the grant of £1,730,000, they would have to rate themselves very heavily. Under those circumstances, especially if the Bill were made compulsory, many districts would He inclined to draw back from the good work they had been doing, and to divert some of the money now being spent on technical education to the relief of the races. Many statements had been made as to the actual amount of this money. References had been made to "millions". The whisky money last year amounted to £980,000, of which £886,000 were already allocated to purposes of education, so that the effect of the Amendment would simply be to set free another £100,000. It would do a considerable amount of good in some localities if they were obliged to spend this money on education. Preston, for instance, now spent £650 out of the whisky money on education; under this Amendment, Preston would have to spend £2,200, and, if he knew anything of the district, the money was very much needed. Gloucestershire spent £7,000 at present, and this Amendment would make that county spend £14,000 on technical education. Hertfordshire spent £2,750, and this Amendment would make that county spend £6,000. [An HON. MEMBER: Hertfordshire spends £24,000.] He was quoting from the Blue book of the 8th of July, 1901, which stated that Hertfordshire had spent £2,750 on technical education. If those figures were wrong, and Hertfordshire had gone ahead in that way, he was glad to hear it.
  COLONEL KENYON-SLANEYsaid that he always understood that when they were urged to throw in their lot in favour of local

  1567
  self-government, they all anticipated that the electors would be able to exercise their own discretion in regard to the results which they expected to achieve by these grants. They now heard an hon. Member on this side of the House saying that he would support this Amendment because, at some future time, there might be a reversal of this policy. That was what hon. Gentlemen opposite were hoping for, and what was sauce for the goose was sauce for the gander. He did not think that hon. Gentlemen opposite for one moment supposed that Gentlemen on his side of the House were one whit less interested than they were in the matter of national education. The difference between them was that some hon. Members thought it was not necessary to drive all horses and teams at the same pace, and they thought they could get better results by allowing a little more freedom of option to the different localities. It should be remembered that there were large amounts of money available for educational purposes from private individuals, and he thought that was a good reason for not making this proposal compulsory in regard to the spending of the whisky money. In his own county they happened to have large endowments for educational purposes, and surely they ought to be allowed to treat their own income in the way which they thought best. Although the Government had in their wisdom left this question open, he hoped those who were, generally speaking, in favour of trusting these authorities to do their duty, would not be led away by the specious arguments of hon. Gentlemen opposite, but would stick close to the fundamental fact that the localities were better able to judge than Parliament the exact way in which this money should be utilised in their own districts. They should trust in the wisdom and commonsense of the local authorities, and for these reasons he should vote for retaining this option.
  SIR W. HART DYKEsaid he found it difficult to give a silent vote upon this question. At present he was not going into the constitutional principle involved. He looked upon this as a sum of money given by a very
  1568
  useful mishap, some years ago, for educational purposes. He thought it would be a grievous misfortune if they were to allow any portion of the money now used for education to be utilised in the future for the reduction of rates. Although the first inception of this fund was unfortunate, the accidental grant of this money had been the greatest educational boon that had been conferred in their day, and it would be a national misfortune if it were now allowed to be diverted. This sum of £900,000 was a mere flea-bite compared with the stimulus it had given to educational zeal, and this amount sank into utter insignificance when they remembered how it had stirred up the munificence of rich individuals to supplement this sum by providing splendid buildings for technical education. This sum,per se, was small, but taken in conjunction with the stimulus that had been given to technical education on the one hand, and the provision of magnificent buildings and institutes all over the country on the other hand, good results had been obtained. His right hon. colleague had turned upon him and represented him as a reckless spendthrift in this matter. If the policy he had pursued in the past justified that statement, he was afraid he should continue to be a reckless spendthrift to the end of the chapter, and he was afraid his right hon. friend would always look upon him as a hopeless and incurable case. He intended to vote for making the application of this sum compulsory, and He should do this as an earnest educationist because he believed that a great movement was going on on behalf of technical education, and they should not allow that movement any chance of drifting back in the wrong direction. Not many days ago he visited one of the few establishments in this country for making optical instruments. There He saw mechanical contrivances of the most exquisite kind; he saw all the machinery and the whole process from beginning to end, and he saw a vast amount of the most delicate machinery. He afterwards learned that out of all those splendid machines and instruments He had seen only one of English manufacture. Each separate room had its own particular foreman, and only one of those foremen was an

  1569
  Englishman, the rest being Germans. He could quote many another instance of this land, and therefore he should rote most heartily for making the application of this money compulsory in future.
  MR. DILLONheartily supported the Amendment. The attitude He had always endeavoured to take on English Education Bills was that, while he felt it to be his duty to defend the liberty, as he conceived it to be, of educational teaching in this country, and to look after the interests of the voluntary schools, he would never be a party to any obscurantist policy, or to any action which was likely to cause an injury to the spread of education. He had listened with amazement to some of the speeches of hon. Gentlemen opposite. There was a small minority of hon. Gentlemen opposite who looked upon the creation of a truly national system of secondary and higher education in this country as a positive misfortune. He could conceive of men arguing in favour of the proposition that, if they gave too much elementary education to the labourers in the country, it would tend to increase the migration of the agricultural population from the country to the town. The reason was that by educating them they were enabled to read newspapers, and in that way were made acquainted with the miserable condition of their surroundings. The conditions under which agricultural labourers were compelled to exist in Lincolnshire and other parts of the country were conditions under which no population ought to be allowed to work. He had read recently an article written by an English lady describing the condition of things in Lincolnshire at the present time. Therefore, it was true, that by teaching the agricultural labourers how to read and write they were breeding discontent amongst them. But, on the other hand, how it could enter into the mind of any man to imagine that by giving to the people of this country a properly organised and co-ordinated system of national education available for the highest and the lowest, and offering to the poorest of the people an opportunity of rising in the social scale if they were found to be gifted with talent—how any man could say that that would tend to depopulate rural districts surpassed his comprehension. Why was
  1570
  it that men longed to go into the towns and cities? Because they were denied opportunities of rising in the country, and they had better prospects of getting on in the towns. So far from injuring the position of the rural population and tending to withdraw them from the land, a proper national system of secondary education or higher grade education would enormously improve the conditions of agriculture and benefit the people in the rural districts. On behalf of the Irish Party, He felt called upon to take part in this debate in order to declare that they would never be parties to any obscurantist policy, and they would support this Amendment to compel County Councils to devote the whisky money to the cause of secondary education. He might also add that if the proposition was made later on in regard to what he believed to be a necessary corollary of this Amendment, that there should be, in addition to the grant already promised, a grant in aid of secondary education in this country to offer some inducement to County Councils to rate themselves in support of technical education, he should support it
  LORD HUGH CECILsaid he desired to say a word in this debate, because it was evident that those who voted against the Amendment would be exposed to the charge of being anti-educationists, and of being in favour of some kind of obscurantist policy. Those who opposed the Amendment, however, took a very different point of view. His reasons for opposing the Amendment were not because of any jealousy of education. He might be permitted to say that certainly it would be very foolish from the political point of view to be against education. They were often told that Liberals had a special interest in education, but he could not see why. The people of the towns were much more educated than those of the rural districts, and they were Conservative. The people of the rural districts who were admittedly ignorant were Radical. He should be glad to see any system of education in the rural districts which would make them as Conservative as any other part of the country. One of his principal

  1571
  reasons for being opposed to the Amendment was that he was still an advocate of a cause which hon. Members opposite formerly supported but now seemed to have abandoned—the cause of devolution. He was sorry the hon. Baronet the Member for Berwick was not in his place. He spoke eloquently in favour of devolution on the Second Beading of the Bill. He declared himself a megalomaniac in regard to that principle. The noble Lord should very much like to hear the opinion of the hon. Baronet, or the opinion of the Liberal League, if that body still existed, upon this matter from their point of view. If any matter were devolved by Parliament on local authorities it was a small one of this kind, that of saying how the whisky money was to be spent, which could most safely be devolved upon them. Another reason why he opposed the Amendment was that he believed in the necessity of practising national economy wherever it was possible, and he was averse to saying that it was so clear and certain that they ought to spend every penny of this money on education, that they should not leave it to the choice of the local authorities, who were supposed to know the needs of their localities. In the cause of economy this was a proper thing to leave to the discretion of the County Councils. This House was an assembly of most inconsistent persons. The very life of this Bill was the principle of devolution, and now they were asked to express want of confidence in that principle.
  MR. JOSEPH A. PEASEsaid he was one of those who thought that they could spend their money, whether from national funds or local rates, in no better way than on education. The noble Lord had said that those on the Opposition side of the House were not prepared to place confidence in the County Council. He himself believed that, on the question of education, they ought to adopt a national policy, and to lay down, for the guidance of County Councils, the minimum amount of money that ought to be spent on education other than elementary. If a County Council did not want to spend that money in any particular year, it might be ear-marked for the purposes of education, and become a nest egg upon which
  1572
  future generations could draw to enable then to erect large institutions for higher education. The opponents of the Amendment had been drawn almost exclusively from the agricultural districts. He wanted to point out that in many counties land was allowed to go out of cultivation, very often from the fact that our agriculturists were not up to date with their knowledge of the industry in which they were engaged. Farmers were to be found, year after year, putting manure on the land in the belief that they were doing good to that land, when, as a matter of fact, the kind of manure used was not suited to that particular soil. Those interested in the supply of dairy produce supplied articles inferior to those which came from Denmark and other countries where greater skill was brought to bear on the work. A great deal of agricultural depression frequently came from the lack of education.
  SIR ALBERT ROLLITsaid He wished to say a few words in support of the Amendment. The noble Lord the Member for Greenwich had stated that he was in favour of devolution. He quite approved of that principle, but He thought the noble Lord confused, for the moment, the distinction between legislation and administration. The question here was the administration of public funds. In the Act of 1390 the whisky moneys were carried to the accounts of the borough and county funds with this significant expression in the Act "unless Parliament shall otherwise determine." This showed that at the time the moneys were dealt with there was a reservation in the mind of Parliament that some application of the moneys to education or other purposes would be proposed; and that they were not to be considered as appropriated merely to the purpose of relieving the rates. The noble Lord had defended his view on the ground of efficiency and economy. The hon. Member held that the expenditure of money on education was economical expenditure, and in the end might be made the means of saving the rates rather than increasing them. He believed the local authorities, except some of the County Councils, were in favour of the appropriation of this money to the purposes of

  1573
  education. The more we increased the area of education the more probability there would be of men rising from the ranks who, by a single invention or the solution of a problem in industry, would retrieve far more than their education had cost.
  (7.13.) Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 151; Noes, 251. (Division List No. 245.)

  AYES.

  Acland Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Colliding, Edward Alfred

  More, Robert Jasper (Shropsh.

  Anstruther, H. T.

  Greene, Sir E W (B'ry S Edm'nds

  Murray, Rt Hn. A Graham (Bute

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Balcarres, Lord

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

  Gordon, Sir W. Brampton

  Penn, John

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Hain, Edward

  Percy, Earl

  Balfour, Rt Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'derry)

  Purvis, Robert

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

  Han bury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Quilter, Sir Robert

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Hare, Thomas Leigh.

  Rankin, Sir James

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Bowles, T. Gibson (Lynn Regis)

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Brassey, Albert

  Heath, James (Staffords, N. W.

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Helder, Augustus

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Bull, William James

  Henderson, Alexander

  Ridley, Hn. M W. (Staleybrdg'e

  Ballard, Sir Harry

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Hope, J F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Robinson, Brooke

  Cavendishh, V. C. W. (Derbysh.

  Howard, Jno. (Kent, Faversham

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Round, James

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

  Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.)

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

  Jackson, Rt. Hon. Wm. Lawies

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Charrington, Spencer

  Kennaway, Rt Hn, Sir John H.

  Seton-Karr, Henry

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col, W, (Salop.

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Keswick, William

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Lawson, John Grant

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Sturt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Long, Rt Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Valentia, Viscount

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Walrond, Rt Hn. Sir William H.

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Lowe, Francis William

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent)

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir E. Dixon

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.)

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R)

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Younger, William

  Finch, George H.

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H. E (Wigt'n

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Milner, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Sir John Dorington and Lord Willoughby de Eresby.

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.

  Forster, Henry William

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Bond, Edward

  Abraham, William Rhondda

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Brigg, John

  Allan, William (Gateshead)

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Ambrose, Robert

  Bell, Richard

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Beresford, Lord Chas. William

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Burt, Thomas

  Asquith, Rt Hon Herbert Henry

  Boland, John

  Butcher, John George

  Austin, Sir John

  Belton, Thomas Dolling

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Caine, William Sproston

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Plummer, Waller R.

  Caldwell, James

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Cameron, Robert

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Randles, John S.

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J A. (Glasgow

  Johnston, William Belfast

  Rea, Russell

  Campbell, John (Armagh S.)

  Joicey, Sir James

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Reddy, M.

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Joyce, Michael

  Redmond, John E (Waterford)

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries

  Cawley, Frederick

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Renwick, George

  Channing, Francis. Allston

  Kinloch, Sir John George Smyth

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Chapman, Edward

  Kitson, Sir James

  Rigg, Richard

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Lambert, George

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Langley, Batty

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Cohen, Benjamin Lotus

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Lawrence, Joseph (Monmouth)

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Roche, John

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Lecky, Rt Hn. William Edw. H.

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Crean, Eugene

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Farch'm

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Cremer, William Randal

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Runciman, Walter

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Levy, Maurice

  Russell, T. W.

  Crombie, John William

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Rutherford, John

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Lloyd-George, David

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Crocs, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Lough, Thomas

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Lundon, W.

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Delany, William

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  MacNeill, John Gurdon Swift

  Smith, H C (North'mb. Tyneshire

  Dillon, John

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Donelan, Captain A.

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Doogan, P. C.

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Spear, John Ward

  Doughty, George

  M'Crae, George

  Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R, (Northants

  Duke, Henry Edward

  M'Govern, T.

  Stock, James Henry

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  M'Kean, John

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Sullivan, Donal

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Talbot, Rt Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Middlemore, John Throgmort'n

  Tennant, Harold John

  Elibank, Master of

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Milvain, Thomas

  Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.)

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Mitchell, William

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Ffrench, Peter

  Morgan, David J (Walthamst'w

  Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Thompson, Dr. EC (Monagh'n'N

  Fitzroy, Hon. Ed ward Algernon

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R)

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

  Tomkinson, James

  Flower, Ernest

  Moss, Samuel

  Toulmin, George

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Foster, Sir Michael (Lond. Univ.

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Tully, Jasper

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Murnaghan, George

  Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.

  Garfit, William

  Murphy, John

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn)

  Newnes, Sir George

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Grant, Corrie

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Norman, Henry

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

  Gretton, John

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Whiteley, H (Ashton-und. Lyne

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Haldane, Richard Burdon

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Wills, Sir Frederick

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Wilson, Chas. Henry (Hull, W.

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-

  O'Dowd, John

  Wood, James

  Helme, Norval Watson

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

  Woodhouse, Sir J T. (Huddersf'd

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

  O'Malley, William

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Wylie, Alexander

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Parker, Gilbert

  Young, Samuel

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Partington, Oswald

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Hoult, Joseph

  Pease, Sir Joseph W. (Durham)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES, Mr. Mather and Sir Francis Powell.

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Question put, and agreed to.

  ILLNESS OF THE KING.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I now beg to move that you, Sir, report progress. Though it is rather irregular, I hope I shall be permitted by the House to inform them that I have received a message, dated "Buckingham Palace, 6.40 p.m.," to the effect that the King continues to make satisfactory progress, and is much relieved by the operation. I have been asked a great many questions from different quarters with regard to the inevitable results of the unhappy event which has burst upon us today; and it would be to the public convenience if I were to state the course we think desirable. London celebrations are to be postponed, except those of a charitable character, such as the King's Dinner. Probably celebrations in the provinces will be confined to entertainments of a similar character; but that is a matter entirely in the discretion of those locally interested. The Naval Review will not take place. Banks will be bound by the Proclamation, and will not be open. The Proclamation, however, in no way interferes with the carrying on of manufactures or other business. It is therefore for employers to consider whether, in the circumstances, it would not be desirable to abandon their intention of closing their places of business on the 26th and 27th.
  Committee report progress; to sit again this evening.

EVENING SITTING.

  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILl.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Clause 2:—
  MR. BOND(9.0) MR. BOND moved an Amendment enabling local authorities to save up moneys which they did not want for certain purposes. He urged that it was desirable the whisky money should be ear-marked, and if unappropriated in a
  1578
  certain year should go into a Reserve Fund, and accumulate until it was required for permanent purposes, such as the building of colleges or schools, or the endowment of chairs. Hitherto there had been a tendency to devote surplus funds to the relief of the rates, and that he held was not desirable.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 1, line 20, after the word 'apply to insert the words 'all or so much as they deem necessary of.'"—(Mr. Bond.)
  Question proposed "That those words be there inserted."
  SIR JOHN GORSTsaid He was not sure that some alteration of the phraseology of the Clause was not necessary in consequence of the last Amendment which the Committee made by turning the word "may" into "shall." It was now directed that the whole of the money was to be spent on technical and higher education, and it was perhaps desirable to indicate that the local authorities should not be obliged to apply all in one year, but only so much as was necessary for the purposes of the year, and to carry forward the unspent balance. Before the Report stage he would consider what changes should be made, but he did not like to pledge the Government at once.
  SIR ALBERT ROLLITsaid he thought the Amendment a most proper one. The Clause had been made mandatory, and it was absurd to leave it that the money should be spent in a certain period whether it was wanted or not. This proposal to give discretion as to the time of the use of the money must commend itself to the judgment of the Committee, especially as, in the case of the Welsh Bill, the plan had been found to work well.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: I understand that the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to accept the Amendment on the understanding that the phraseology may be revised on the Report stage?
  SIR JOHN GORST: Yes.
  SIR ALBERT ROLLITasked as to the exact meaning of the words "including any balance thereof which may remain unexpended at the end of a financial year." Was that intended to cover any balance which might remain unexpended at the time of the passing of the Act? The word "a" seemed indefinite. Would not the word "any" or "each" be preferable?
  SIR JOHN GORSTconfessed that further words were necessary, because as the clause now stood it did not make sense. It was necessary to say what was to be carried forward. He rather favoured the words "any balance thereof which may remain unexpended."
  SIR ALBERT ROLLIT: With the permission of the Committee I will move the omission of the words "at the end of a financial year."
  This Amendment was agreed to.
  MR. CHAPLINsaid the object of the Amendment He had on the Paper was to prevent the cost of higher education being paid entirely out of the rates as proposed in the Bill. The only way in which he could do that was to move an Amendment of this kind. The Committee was aware that it was not within the power or province of any Member of the House, not being one of His Majesty's Ministers, to propose an addition to expenditure from Imperial funds, and he had, therefore, had to resort to the expedient of moving a reduction, because if He were successful it would then be for the Government to make other proposals in order to give effect to their views and desires with regard to secondary education. He would like to say a word or two with regard to some passages between the First Lord and himself on the last Amendment. He had found on reflection that he was wrong in his statement that the course taken by the Government was contrary to their pledges, and he accordingly withdrew it unreservedly. But undoubtedly it had been the policy of the Government not to add to the burden of the rates, especially in districts where circumstances which were notorious rendered any
  1580
  addition to the rates at the present time a matter of serious concern to the ratepayers. His desire—and surely it was not unreasonable—was that the expenditure for secondary education should be treated on precisely the same footing as the concessions announced in regard to elementary education. The Government had undoubtedly made very considerable concessions with regard to the national funds in the case of elementary education and on that point he wished to offer the First Lord of the Treasury his thanks. The Government in that matter had acted exactly as he should have desired, and if they could only be persuaded to apply the same treatment to secondary education he thought it would do more than anything else to facilitate the Bill, It had been his misfortune to have to speak on three or four occasions in opposition to the proposals of the Government, and it had been very far from his wishes to do so, because with the exception of the financial clauses he was entirely in favour of the Bill of his right hon. friend. He failed to understand what was the reason for making the distinction between elementary and secondary education in this matter. They were all agreed that education—whether elementary or secondary—was a matter of the highest national importance. They had claimed for years that it was a subject which should be paid for out of national funds. So far as local administration was concerned it was necessary to have a check on extravagance, and that check could be most effectually administered by placing a portion of the burden on the rates. That was already done in regard to elementary education. Why should the cost of secondary education be taken entirely out of the rates? It was entirely optional on the part of the local authority, whereas elementary education was compulsory. His case was that a subject of national importance should be provided for out of national funds, there being of course the necessary check against extravagance. As the clause now stood, it could not have any other possible effect than to make secondary education practically compulsory, and in view of the fact that the Committee had decided that it was the duty of the local authority not only to consider the needs

  1581
  of education, but to take such steps, after consultation with the Education Department, as might seem to them desirable to aid the supply of education other than elementary, how could it he otherwise than compulsory? No one would deny that secondary and higher education was most desirable, and it having been as a result of the debates made practically compulsory, it ought to be subjected to the same financial treatment as elementary education. He had withdrawn his accusation with regard to broken pledges against the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues, but that did not exonerate him from his bond to his constituents to do his best to prevent the whole cost of education entailed by that Bill being placed entirely on the rates. The right hon. Gentleman the First Lord the other day received a most numerous and important deputation at his instance, which urged that the cost of national education should be borne by the Imperial Exchequer and not by the local rates. Unfortunately many hon. Members who took part in that deputation were nut present to support him now, but still he hoped he would get assistance from right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite.
  Amendment proposed—
  In page 1, line 22, to leave out all the words after the word "year," to end of Clause, in order to insert the words "together with such further sums as they may raise out of rates under this Act not exceeding the amount which would be produced by a rate of one penny in the pound."—(Mr. Chaplin.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
  SIR JOHN GORSTsaid this was a proposal to reduce the amount which the local education authority might raise from the rates for secondary education from 2d. to 1d. in the £, and that, of course, the Government could not possibly accede to. He would point out that secondary and higher education was nothing like so costly as elementary education. Practically the whole cost of the latter had to be provided, but in regard to the former a very large proportion might be paid by the parents of the students themselves. What was really wanted was to defray the cost of the higher education of those who were unable to pay
  1582
  for it themselves, but whose talents and abilities were of such a character as to render it to the interest of the nation at largo that the education should be secured to them. He would remind his right hon. friend that the Committee had just appropriated the local taxation money which came out of the Imperial Exchequer to that distinct purpose. Then, again, the grants given out of the Imperial Exchequer to schools were very large. Very considerable grants were given not only to Science and Art schools, but also other schools, which had a curriculum approved by the Board of Education, had very liberal capitation grants made to them. The grants to evening continuation schools were also very liberal. They had been raised in the present year; and met, he thought, quite as much of the cost of higher education as it was reasonable to ask the Imperial Government to pay. The Amendment of his right hon. friend would leave the local ratepayer in exactly the same position as He now was, and with the same moans at his disposal. The rate of 1d. was the rate to which He was already liable; and the present Bill only increased his potential liability by another penny. That was the utmost to which the liability of the ratepayer was extended under the Bill. It was quite true that the decision in the celebrated Cockerton case threw on the county authorities an entirely new obligation, which was formerly borne by the School Boards, and which was paid for out of the school rate. That was to say, that whereas the School Boards formerly raised out of the education rate an amount sufficient to pay for the continuation schools, they were no longer able to raise it; and it had to be provided for by the Town Councils and County Councils in some other way. In fact, the present Bill in the case of the large county boroughs would practically make no change whatever in the position of the ratepayer. It was quite true that in a great number of large county boroughs the whole of the local taxation money and the whole of the proceeds of the 1d. rate were already applied to technical education; and when the burden of the evening continuation schools was shifted from the School Boards to the town councils it really made no difference to the ratepayer; and, therefore, in the great county boroughs the Bill did not throw any increased burden on the rate

  1583
  payer. It merely shifted the cost of maintaining the evening schools, which amounted to something like a 1d. rate, from one tax to another tax. It came equally out of the ratepayers' pocket in both cases. It was quite true that in most of the counties the 1d. rate for higher education was not levied; nor was the local taxation money spent in all cases for that purpose. He thought, however, that owing to the exigencies of debate, justice had not been done to the counties in the matter. He thought the reason why they had not spent more money was that they were gradually feeling their way towards expending their money in a judicious and prudent manner. When the local taxation money was first given to the counties, He thought that they wasted a great deal of it in expenditure they were not prepared for. No doubt they threw away a great part of it in injudicious schemes. But since then, they had been gradually feeling their way towards a more judicious expenditure of money on higher education. For example, the Technical Instruction Board of the London County Council, which was one of the greatest educational authorities in the country, had only just spent the whole of the local taxation money, because it was feeling its way as to how that money should be spent to the best advantage in improving education in London. So it was with a great many of the counties, who had just now got to be able to spend wisely the whole of their local taxation money; and even without the Bill at all, a great number of the counties would now be beginning to see their way to a judicious expenditure of the 1d. rate on evening schools. The hon. Member for North Camberwell read out the particular subjects in which a great many of the counties were spending their local taxation money, in the advance of technological instruction in the very occupations which were carried on in the rural districts, and they were gradually feeling their way to a larger and better expenditure of money. He did not think that even the expenditure of a 2d. rate would be too much for carrying on continuation schools, and technological, agricultural, and other schools which were so extremely necessary. With regard to the interest of the rate-payer, he would remind the Committee
  1584
  that they had not spent anything like what had been spent in other countries on technological instruction. The Committee would remember that the Vice-President of Agriculture in Ireland was, before he became a Minister of the Crown, chairman of a Committee, consisting of all parties, which inquired into the causes of agricultural depression in Ireland, which was really analogous to the question of agricultural depression in other parts of the United Kingdom. That Committee visited several foreign countries, among others the neighbouring kingdom of Denmark; and they reported that the reason why agriculture was flourishing in Denmark was that the farmer and the labourer employed on the land were so very much better instructed than persons similarly employed in Ireland; and that they were able to make a prosperous and thriving business of agriculture, which in Ireland was a failure. The Committee also referred to the number of secondary schools and special agricultural schools, which, during the last generation, had been established in Ireland. He had not the slightest hesitation in saying that if similar progress had been made in Ireland and Lincolnshire, and other comparatively speaking benighted parts of the United Kingdom, as had been made in Denmark, for instance, the position of the ratepayer, the farmer and the labourer would be enormously improved; and that Lincolnshire and Ireland and other places would become as prosperous as Denmark, Switzerland, Normandy, and other agricultural parts of the Continent. Therefore, while appreciating the motives of his right hon. friend, he thought that, in the case of towns, the Bill put no additional burden whatever, and that, in the case of rural districts, it only put on a potential burden which might be used for spreading technological instruction in them, and which would minister greatly to their prosperity.
  SIR EDWARD STRACHEYsaid he supported the statement of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Sleaford Division that the deputation to the First Lord of the Treasury did not object in the slightest degree to expenditure on education, however large; but that they objected

  1585
  to additional taxation being put on the already overburdened ratepayer. He could not agree with the sentiment expressed the other day by his right hon. friend the Member for the Stirling Burghs, when he said, as regarded the poor, the question of Imperial taxation was much mere serious than local taxation. In the rural districts the complaint was not about Imperial taxation being heavy, but about the burden of the local rates on the very poor, and on the small freeholder and the small tradesman. These were the men by whom the heavy burden of local taxation was felt, and in many districts they formed a majority of the smaller ratepayers. If such persons were to be rated heavily for primary and technical education, it would result in making education unpopular in rural districts, and he, for one, would never assent to anything that would make education unpopular, because once that feeling was set up in the country, the greatest blow it would be possible to conceive would be dealt at education. He was, therefore, supporting the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sleaford, because he was as anxious as any man to promote education in every possible way. It was stated by his hon. friend the Member for the Saffron Walden Division that, although it was permissive at the present moment, the County Councils had devoted the whole of the whisky money, with the exception of a trifling sum of £30,000 to technical education, so what need was there for compulsion? His hon. friend also said that farmers were so stupid that they required technical education in order to carry on their business, and that agricultural depression was due to the want of better technical education. He could not agree with his hon. friend. From his own experience, He could say that farmers, as a class, were very well able and very well qualified to carry on their business, and it was very doubtful whether Technical Education Committees could teach them very much more than they could learn from their own societies. No, it was bad seasons and bad prices which had caused agricultural depression. In his own county of Somersetshire, the Technical Education Committee set up a farm to
  1586
  teach farmers how to carry on their business, but after a large acreage had been sown with oats the produce turned out to be mainly thistles, owing to their bad farming. That showed that the Technical Instruction Committees often wasted money, and he thought that the County Councils should have complete control over such Committees. The Committee had insisted that the whole of the technical education money should, rightly or wrongly, be spent in Technical Education. That provision removed a great deal of the check which the County Councils possessed in seeing that the money was spent wisely, as the Technical Instruction Committees could now, without fear of withdrawal, do what they liked, and even waste the money. He did not say that all the money was wasted in Somerset, or in any other county; but undoubtedly much money had been wasted by County and Borough Councils. The Vice-President himself admitted that County and Borough Technical Education Committees had wasted money in the past; but apparently he was now quite prepared to give them an absolute free hand in the future. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the great improvement which Mr. Plunkett had effected in Irish agriculture; but he would remind the right hon. Gentleman that the money for that purpose came out of the Imperial Exchequer; and his contention was that money should be given in England in the same way. Technical education such as was proposed was a national matter, and he could not conceive why the whole cost of it, except the whisky money, should be thrown on the rates. He could not account for that, except on the supposition that the Government had reserved the policy on which they had always prided themselves that they were ready to help agricultural ratepayers to keep down the rates. Perhaps they now held that the farmers, after seven years of Tory government, were so well off that it did not matter what burdens were imposed on them. It was not a matter for local rating, but an Imperial concern; and the money required for it should be provided out of the Imperial Exchequer.
  MR. CRIPPSsaid he thought that there had been some mistake as to what bad been said by the Royal Commission. It was an extremely important point, as it raised, perhaps, the most important of all questions as between Imperial and local finance. He wished first of all, however, to say a few words on the general principle involved. He was strongly in favour, and he represented a constituency which was strongly in favour, of advancing technical and secondary education; and he had been chairman of a Technical Instruction Committee in an agricultural county which spent every farthing of the whisky money, as it was called, on secondary and technical education, to, he hoped, the great benefit of agriculture and other industries in that county. He wished to make it clear that he entirely dissented from the view which had been advanced in the debate, that those who wanted to put the finance of this question on a sound basis were in any way opposed to secondary or technical education. On the contrary, from an educational point of view, and from the point of view of furthering, as much as possible, the cause of secondary and technical education, it was most important that they should have a sound and proper financial basis. The Royal Commission had nothing to do directly with the education question, but they came to the conclusion that if there were to be efficiency in regard to local services, the best way to obtain it was to give a certain amount—the particular amount he would not now discuss—from the national Exchequer on the guarantee that there should be a certain level of efficiency, as regarded local administration. He would apply that principle with reference to education. Why had the Welsh Intermediate Education Act been a success? The reason that they had educational efficiency under the Act was that there was a grant from the Imperial Exchequer in proportion to the rate raised locally. The inducement which had caused that rate to be raised was that a proportionate grant would be received from the national Exchequer. If they really wanted to encourage technical and secondary education, they ought to give sufficient funds, and
  1588
  follow the precedent of the Welsh Intermediate Education Act and induce the people to contribute from the local rates by giving them an equal contribution from the national Exchequer. The essence of the Bill, if it was to be really valuable as regarded secondary and technical education, was that the controlling authorities should have sufficient funds at their disposal. As the Bill at present stood, he thought there was great risk that secondary and technical education might be comparatively starved owing to insufficient financial provision. He was speaking partly on behalf of an agricultural constituency, and partly in respect of a Lancashire constituency. In a large urban constituency like the latter, it was perfectly natural that they should have more inducement and more stimulus with reference to technical and secondary education than in a purely rural district. He did not dissent from what the Vice-President had said, that it would be an advantage to have the best system of technical education in the agricultural districts. He could not see why they should not have the same opportunities as the boroughs, and why they should not be able to have the advantage of even the Universities themselves. From the point of view of the farming class, in which he was intensely interested, there was no class which should be more concerned in the establishment of a proper system of secondary education. Elementary education was not sufficient, and if they wished to give the farming class a proportionate interest in the educational system of the country, they should establish improved secondary and technical schools in the agricultural districts. With reference to the Amendment of his right hon. friend the Member for the Sleaford Division, he would wish to cite the views of the Royal Commission on Local Taxation. First of all, it said that, as regards funds voted by this House, they ought to be appropriated by the House to the particular purpose to which they were to be devoted. That was the reason he voted for the word "shall" in the last division, because, according to the view of the Royal Commission, they ought, as regarded secondary instruction, to have a large proportion of the funds specifically

  1589
  appropriated to that purpose. Otherwise, there would he a liability to waste, and the funds might be dissipated by the local authorities. Then the Royal Commission had to consider—and it was one of the chief subjects of its labour—how to adjust a fair contribution as between what were called local charges and Imperial charges. The Commission found that with reference to Imperial charges imperially a lministered there was no question; and that with reference to purely local charges, such as sewerage, there was no question; but that there were a large number of services, generally called national, and which in any ordinary classification would be classed as national, carried out by local administration. Of course, he took the view that it was one of the advantages which the country possessed, that it had a better system of local administration than probably any other country in the world. But if they were to have local administration as regarded national services, it would he grossly unfair to put an undue part of the charge for those services on the local ratepayer, because, for the purposes of administration, the best agent was the local authority. The Bill said that any additional funds to be devoted to technical and secondary education must come out of the ratepayer's pocket. What was secondary or technical education for? First of all, it was to improve the higher culture of the nation. That was a national matter. There was no local element in it. It was not a county or a borough or an urban district matter. What was the next point? They wanted better technical instruction in order that, in their commercial enterprises, they should hold their own, and keep the great advantage that they at present possessed. Was that a local matter? It was quite a national matter, and proper funds for it should be provided out of the national Exchequer. He would take another illustration. It was said that one of the great needs of the country was the need of undenominational training colleges. He entirely agreed; but they could not expect the ratepayers to set up those colleges. It was not a local matter. Looking at ordinary human nature as it was, if they were to have
  1590
  effective teachers' colleges, it was monstrous to suggest that the ratepayers alone should pay for them. Yet that was the scheme of the Bill. The whisky money was appropriated already, and, therefore, any advance required in secondary education—one of the most crying needs of the age—depended on the goodwill of the ratepayers. But the burden ought not to He put on them. He would give a further illustration as indicating the harshness of making local administration an excuse for throwing an undue burden on the local ratepayers. The ratepayers in this country represented only about a third of the taxable property of the country, and, in many respects, it was the poorest from whom anything in the shape of rates was taken. The question of rating affected, for instance, the housing problem in the largo towns enormously; and if they put an undue burden on the rates, they would be putting, to a great extent, an undue burden on the class least able to bear it. How could any hon. Member get up and substantiate the proposition that as regarded secondary and technical education, two-thirds of the wealth of the country ought to escape from any burden at all? How about the richer classes—the millionaires, the investors who derived incomes from foreign investments to the extent of £200,000,000 or more in the year? Were they to escape all burden for technical or secondary education? How could the putting of the whole burden on a third of the property of the country be justified? That meant that every man who paid, paid I three times more than he ought to have paid if the burden were distributed fairly and equitably. These were the views of the Royal Commission on Local Taxation. Every member of that Commission appreciated to the full the necessity of extending education, but it was the duty of the Commissioners—and he hoped they carried it out—to point out the injustice of placing taxation, more than to a limited extent, on the ratepayer; and they said that as regarded education, it being a highly national service, additional expenditure for it should be borne by the national Exchequer. He should not have intervened in the debate were it not that he looked upon the matter as one of the most important points involved in the Bill. It was all very well to say that the Report of the Royal

  1591
  Commission would be considered by and by. They all knew it had to be considered now, or the time would pass away. The Royal Commission said that, at the present moment, as regarded national services locally administered, the ratepayer was inequitably treated; and if anything were to be done under the Bill for secondary or technical education, that inequality would be exaggerated in his disfavour. He was one of the keenest supporters of the Bill, and He believed in the necessity of co-ordinating the elementary and higher systems of education, but that should not be done by sacrificing justice. If it were done in that way it would react and bring about a starving condition with reference to secondary and technical education, which he believed was contrary to the views of the vast majority of hon. Members on both sides of the House.
  MR. YOXALLsaid the Committee had heard a very able and plausible speech from the hon. and learned Member, but it really was not a speech on the Amendment. One would have thought that the proposal was to compel the local authorities in the rural districts to pay two pence in the £ for technical instruction. The Amendment was that they should not rate themselves more than a penny for technical instruction, and, therefore, all the arguments as to the rural ratepayer being overburdened did not apply. The whole argument of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Sleaford Division and his friends the day before was that the Committee ought to trust the local authorities in the rural districts to do their duty, and that they ought not to be compelled to do it. Now the argument apparently was that if they were trusted they would spend two pence, and, therefore, they ought to be put under compulsion not to spend more than a penny. The arguments of the hon. and learned Member as to the disparity of rating were really beside the mark. In the great majority of the administrative counties, not the county boroughs, State aid had been given to secondary and technical education. The local rates had not been used, and rural districts had not rated themselves even to the extent of 1d. in the
  1592
  pound, nor had they spent the whole of the whisky money. Therefore the plausible arguments of the hon. and learned Member broke down. If they were going to extend secondary education in the rural districts, the only hope that it would be put on a proper footing was to have the local authorities spending their own money. With the exception of a few counties, the whisky money had been ladled out to existing secondary schools without producing much reform. His argument was that if the technical and secondary schools were to be looked after, the local authorities should be made to spend their own money. He wished to point out to the Committee that throughout the country they now had secondary schools, which might fairly be called bounty-fed schools, which received very considerable sums indeed from the whisky money and derived very large revenues from ancient endowments not intended to apply to that class of school at all. These schools were already receiving largo sums of public money, and they would be able in future to get the Government grant if they adopted a modern curriculum. For these reasons he did not think that a specific grant was required for secondary education, oven on the principle laid down by the hon. and learned Member, that it should be accompanied by a corresponding grant from the local rates. The proper plan was to leave the matter to the discretion of the local authorities; and he claimed the vote of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Sleaford Division for that view, because the right hon. Gentleman had pleaded, again and again, during the debates on the Bill, for freedom of action for the local authorities, and that was what he was pleading for now.
  MR. DAVID MACIVERsaid that his right hon. friend's Amendment expressed his views on the subject before the Committee. He was afraid He was in a small minority—but he was not necessarily wrong because he was in a minority—in believing that the House of Commons had gone education mad. He had listened with regret to the remarks of the Vice-President of the Council with reference to agricultural depression in England and Ireland. They

  1593
  all knew the old story of the man who proposed pills as a remedy against earthquakes. He thought the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman that technical instruction could cure agricultural depression was just as absurd It so happened that a few days ago he had an opportunity of talking to his constituents on the Bill, and he found that they had a very strong feeling that they should not be rated for the purpose of enabling anybody to receive higher education. If the country as a whole believed that secondary education would be a very great national advantage, the country ought to pay for it. He, himself, would not vote for anything which would have the effect of increasing the charge on local rates.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I hope the Committee will not be led, by the speeches of my hon. and learned friend and others, into a general discussion upon the whole rating question. Everybody admits that our existing system of rating is one which requires seeing to, and has many anomalies. But that is not the question before us. If the Committee raises that gigantic problem on the discussion as to whether the limit of the rate for secondary education should be 2d. or 1d., I do not see how business is ever to be carried on in this House at all. For my part, on behalf of the Government, I can only repeat that we think the limitation of 1d. too rigid. The Committee will have to argue later on whether it is proper to have a limitation at all. There are Amendments on the Paper which have for their object the abolition of the limitation of even 2d. The Government will not be able to accept those Amendments, but, at all events, we do not think that the 2d. rate should be diminished to 1d. It is quite clear that under the new system, made not by this Bill, but by the Cockerton judgment, a great many charges have to be thrown on secondary education which used to be thought to belong to primary education. That being so, there must be some increase of resources. The authorities need not go up to a 2d. rate if they think their duties as the educational authorities are satisfied by a less expenditure of public funds, but we think that, on the whole, it is more desirable that a 2d. rate than that a 1d. rate should be made the primâ facie limit. I would ask the Committee to deal with the
  1594
  Amendment without going into the illimitable questions which have, unfortunately, been raised during the debate by the very interesting but somewhat discursive speeches which have been made, and I hope they will consent now to come to a decision on this point.
  MR. CHAPLINsaid the right hon. Gentleman had expressed regret that the question of local taxation had been raised. But who were responsible for it being raised? The promoters of this Bill, because the clause under discussion, in direct contradiction of all recent policy of the Government, and in direct violation of the recommendations of the Royal Commission which they themselves appointed, proposed to put these extra burdens on the rates. Then, because the supporters of this Amendment endeavoured to point out the injustice of that course, the right hon. Gentleman attacked them for making discursive speeches.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid his right hon. friend misjudged him. He had attacked nobody. There was nothing new in this policy; it was the old policy of the Government on the subject, and had been emphasised in previous Bills.
  MR. CHAPLINadmitted it was not a new policy. It was the old policy of twenty years ago to burden the rates as much as possible; but he challenged the right hon. Gentleman to deny that the recent policy of the Government had been, not to add to the rates, but, where possible, to avoid doing so, especially in regard to impoverished agricultural districts.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that as he had been challenged, he would say most distinctly that in the Bill of last year, for which his right hon. friend was not responsible, and in the Bill of 1896, for which he was responsible, precisely the same policy was followed.
  MR. CHAPLINacknowledged a formal responsibility for the Bill of 1896, but that was one of those unfortunate measures which came to an untimely end, and it was before the passing of the Agricultural Rating Act, at which time he gave the policy of the Government his support. Therefore, even on the

  1595
  showing of his right hon. friend, his statement was justified. He sincerely regretted that no response had been made to his appeal. What would the supporters of the Government in the counties think of this departure from recent policy, and of the deaf ear which had been turned to appeals made on their behalf? The Vice-President, while acknowledging that it would make no difference at all to county boroughs, had admitted that it would make a serious difference to benighted counties such as Lincolnshire. But he would remind the right hon. Gentleman, when he called Lincolnshire benighted because it had not done all that Denmark, with the assistance of the Danish Government, had been able to do in the way of dairy-farming, that that county was a purely agricultural and arable county, and was not suited for dairy-farming, and that, as long as arable farming paid, no county was better cultivated. He would also remind him that when the Chancellor of the Exchequer was in a difficulty as to what he should do with the whisky money, he had just been appointed President of the Board of Agriculture, and he told the Chancellor of the Exchequer that if he would give him £100,000 a year he would kill the Danish butter trade in this country, and he was perfectly certain he would have been able to do it. He was sorry no response had been made to his appeal, and he felt bound by the pledges he had given, and in the interests of those he directly represented, to take the Amend-to a division.
  MR. ALFRED HUTTONsaid the Committee had had an interesting discussion upon what ought to be the duties and powers of the new authority with regard to secondary education, and they now came to the proposals of the Government with regard to the machinery and finance to enable the authority to carry out those powers and duties. Anybody who had a supreme anxiety for the success of the Councils in the conduct of secondary education was bound to feel that the financial proposals and the suggested machinery were entirely unequal to the
  1596
  demands which would be made upon them. The financial proposals were trumpery, and the machinery exceedingly clumsy. The 2d. limit would entirely miss the mark which the Government desired to reach, because if the county of Lincolnshire and other rural districts were really anxious to keep down the rates and prevent expenditure on secondary education, they would never reach the limit of 2d., and therefore would never need the proviso as to Provisional Orders to exceed that limit. In actual working the limit would be a serious obstacle to the County Councils and boroughs which were really keen in their interest in education, while it would not come into operation so far as concerned those rural districts for which the right hon. Member for Sleaford spoke, and it would provide a lever to those who desired to keep things as they were. When an effort was made earlier in the day to apply compulsion, the First Lord pleaded that the County Councils should not be driven, that they should be led or drawn out. If he thought there was sufficient temptation to draw them out he would not move his Amendment, but the Clause provided neither compulsion nor coaxing power. The position of many counties under this Clause would be worse than in the past. Every sentence of the Leader of the House in opposition to the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sleaford helped to prove that a 2d. limit was not sufficient for the needs of the districts and boroughs concerned. All those classes of schools which came under the Cockerton judgment had been transferred from the area of elementary to that of secondary education, and would have to come on this 2d. rate. He had heard the Chairman of the Bradford School Board estimate that the expense of the present Cockertonised schools in that city was equal to a 4½d. rate. But even taking it at 3d., how could those schools be transferred if the limit under the Act was 2d.? Many towns had also undertaken the responsibility of carrying on the municipal technical schools. Manchester had spent £250,000 on their technical school, being determined to have one equal to any in this country or on the Continent. That was a very praiseworthy object, but to

  1597
  carry on such schools would certainly cost a great deal more than the yield of a 2d. rate. This was a most extra ordinary practice, for he did not know any other case with the exception of baths and washhouses, where the rate was limited. [An HON. MEMBER: Libraries.] Yes, but libraries were intended to be educational for the people who used them.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: There is the case of the Parish Councils.
  MR. ALFRED HUTTONsaid the Parish Councils might he limited in their total rate, but it seemed to him rather unfortunate that the Government should place this limit at 2d. He wondered how many times the First Lord of the Treasury had stated that this Bill was intended to carry out the principle of devolution. The right hon. Gentleman had often stated that he preferred to trust the Councils, and he did not suppose there was a single hen. Member opposite who had not reiterated the statement that their first object was to trust the Councils in regard to education. Why was it, then, that in the new education authority, which was to be created by this Bill, they absolutely refused to trust them? The right hon. Gentleman, not only in this House but in other places, had frequently argued that they must have a broad basis for their education, but how could he consistently use that argument to the London Chamber of Commerce when He was responsible to the House of Commons for a Bill which proposed to limit the supply of education to a 2d. rate in regard to technical and secondary education I Let him trust the local authorities in this matter. This proposal would only come into effect in towns and counties where they needed a more extensive system than could be secured by a 2d. rate, and in the interests of the larger boroughs the right hon. Gentleman ought to consent to remove this obstacle. Hon. Members opposite had shared too long the fears entertained by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Thanet, which had kept back education so long in this country, and it was quite time that the Government showed that they were independent of those who
  1598
  were always prophesying evil in this matter, If the right hon. Gentleman would leave this question open, without any indication of the Government view, he felt sure that the Amendment would be carried. If the First Lord of the Treasury would only agree to this course, it would enable them to secure the free and unfettered judgment of the Committee upon this point.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 1, line 22, after the word 'and' to leave out all the words to the end of the clause, and insert the words is empowered to raise out of rates such additional sums as may be required.'"—(Mr. Alfred Hutton.)
  Question, proposed "That the words 'may spend such further sums as they think fit, provided that,' stand part of the clause."
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am sure that the whole Committee will regard the views expressed by the hon. Member opposite with a tender and sympathetic interest. The hon. Member accuses us of bowing the knee to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sleaford and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Thanet. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sleaford has just occupied the best part of an hour in denouncing the Government, and, after that, it seems rather hard that the Government should be blamed for paying too much consideration to the views of my right hon. friend. I am sorry the Government was not able to satisfy my right hon. friend in regard to the last Amendment, but no offence to my right hon. friend was intended in what I said, nor did I intend to injure the right hon. Gentleman's feelings as an agricultural economist. We sympathise with his attitude, but we do not agree with his conclusions. It is easier, as a mere matter of Parliamentary dialectics, to support the attitude the Government took in the last division, than the attitude they mean to take in regard to this Amendment. It is quite true that the Government have stated that in this Education Bill the great thing is to encourage decentralisation and to throw the responsibility upon these great educational bodies, rather than trust largely to the initiative of a central Department. It may, therefore, be asked why we limit the expenditure for higher education

  1599
  which these great bodies are empowered to make. My reply to that is that there is not an absolute limitation. There is a simple, inexpensive, and rapid way by which any public body which comes to the conclusion that a 2d. rate is insufficient to carry out its duty in regard to secondary education may apply to Parliament to have that limitation altered. Therefore, it is a mistake to suggest that the Government lay down a hard and fast line that nothing more than a 2d. rate should ever be levied for secondary education. In my view it really is in the interests of the promoters of secondary education that they should not unduly alarm the local ratepayer. I do not agree, as the House knows, with the speeches delivered by my right hon. friend the Member for Sleaford and my hon. and learned friend the Member for the Stretford Division. But who will deny that both those distinguished Members of this House have given expression to feelings which are widespread, if not universal, and which, though not in a majority, are prevalent throughout a great area of the country? There are large sections of the population who view with genuine distrust and alarm any great education measure, on the ground that it would tend to throw a great burden upon the rates, and they do not sec at present that the ratepayer has any special interest in education, as a ratepayer. That susceptibility exists, and must be reckoned with. In my judgment, I do not think it would be a prudent course on the part of this House to suggest that these great public bodies should in each case be expected to launch into a great scheme of secondary education, far beyond the limits of anything provided by a 2d. rate. I believe that in most cases a 2d. rate will be sufficient, and more than sufficient, for the purposes of secondary education in many parts of the country. But, be this right or wrong, I am perfectly convinced that, in the interests of education itself, it is our duty to frame this Bill so as not to ignore the great educational interests with which we are dealing, and we should be careful not to throw into the scale against the interests of education these great bodies and their constituents who will, after all, have to administer it. That is a plain question of practical politics; it is not a matter of theory; and I earnestly appeal to the Committee
  1600
  not to reject the prudential limit which the Government have put on this rate in the Bill. I will not say any more upon this subject now, beyond what I forgot to say when the corresponding Amendment was moved diminishing the amount of rate to be used for secondary education. Including the local taxation money and the science and art grants, the Imperial Exchequer actually spends a million and a half on secondary education. That is no inconsiderable contribution from the pockets of the taxpayers. This is an argument in favour of the attitude we are taking up upon this Amendment, which rests purely upon the broad ground of policy which I venture to suggest to the Committee, and which I am quite sure hon. Members would be wise to accept.
  MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid that he was going to vote against this Amendment, because, in his opinion, there was a very important principle underlying it. They had laid down in regard to primary education that there should be considerable grants from the Imperial Exchequer in aid of what was raised by local rates. In regard to secondary education they were starting with the whisky money, and giving liberty to the local education authority to spend up to a rate of 2d. in the £. There was an Amendment on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member for Stretford which proposed to strike out the powers given by the Bill to the Education Department, and to allow the local authority to spend more than the 2d. rate, and that raised a principle which he thought ought to be accepted. His hon. friend argued that all secondary education was national, but any one who took the trouble to look at the returns of the way the whisky money had been spent would see that a large amount had been spent on matters purely local. For instance the Warwickshire County Council had spent considerable sums of money upon teaching thatching, fencing, and hedging and ditching, and in many other places the Imperial funds were being spent upon what were practically local interests. Therefore secondary and technical education was partly national and partly local. What he wanted the Government

  1601
  to do was to say that after the local education authority had expended up to a 2d. rate they would accept the principle, of the Welsh Intermediate Education Act and give them I penny for penny, or halfpenny for halfpenny, according to the expenditure of the county. That would encourage expenditure on secondary education in the counties. No one who had listened to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Thanet and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sleaford, and who possessed any knowledge of secondary education, could help seeing that their object was not to encourage the spread of secondary and technical education, but under any circumstances to prevent the ratepayer having to pay for it. That was not the attitude which those who desired to better education ought to take up. The first thing they ought to do was to sec that they encouraged the secondary education of the country. The First Lord of the Treasury was quite right when he said that there was a certain section of the community who were afraid of any expenditure from the rates at all, but he did not believe this feeling was so widespread as had been stated. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sleaford would find if he made inquiries among the farmers, who were said to be the most benighted people in this country, that many of them were giving their sons a very good secondary education. He knew, at any rate of several cases where farmers' sons had won scholarships provided by the County Council with which he was connected. The way to induce the local authorities to spend money on secondary education and go to the full extent of their 2d rate was to hold out something beyond that, so that when they reached that limit they would have some hope of drawing a further sum from the Imperial Exchequer. Upon those grounds he was going to vote against this Amendment, because he wanted to keep the amount fixed at 2d., in order that when that limit had been reached, they might consider the question as to whether some further grant from the Imperial funds should not be made.
  MR. WARRmade an appeal to the Government to leave the local authority unfettered, in regard to the amount of money to be spent. He made the appeal with more confidence than if it were based only upon his own conviction, because the City Council of Liverpool had resolved to ask that this change should be made in the clause. The Provisional Order which the clause contemplated would probably involve a local enquiry with consequent expense, and what was more important serious delay. There was another aspect of the question which made it of additional importance in the case of Liverpool and he believed also in the case of Birmingham. In the course, of the proceedings in Committee today, reference had been made to the Rill promoted by the Corporation of Liverpool, in which power was sought to give assistance out of the, rates to the proposed university in Liverpool, and doubt might arise whether the effect of this might, not be to reduce the limit mentioned in the Education Bill by whatever was applied to the University. He urged that great care should be taken that the provisions of this clause did not affect the powers given to any Council under any private Act of Parliament.
  MR. WHITLEY THOMSON: The object of this Amendment is to give progressive areas permission to rate themselves to what they feel is a proper amount for the purposes of secondary education. When we remember that at present, in addition to spending the whisky money, many County Boroughs have rated themselves to the extent of a Id. rate in favour of technical education alone, and under this Bill it is proposed that all education other than elementary shall be supported out of a 2d. rate, although with the addition of the whisky money, it shows how inadequate a 2d. rate will be. Because, in addition to the technical education already in operation in these centres, organised science schools, training of teachers, and evening continuation schools, will all fall to be supported out of a 2d. rate. Take the ease of Halifax, which has a large technical school, of which I was for many years the Chairman, until very wisely, I think

  1603
  —the County Borough Council took over he school. There, according to the latest returns, the Excise grant amounted to £1,960, allocated by the County Borough Council thus:—

  Technical School

  £1480

  0

  0

  Recrcative Evening Classes

  250

  0

  0

  Ovenden Technical School

  130

  0

  0

  Heath Grammar School

  100

  0

  0

  £1960

  0

  0

  The 1d. rate produced £1,760, all of which was given to the technical school. To carry on the technical school successfully a further ½d. rate is fully needed, and to levy this ½d. (making in all a rate of 1½d. for technical instruction only) application has been made for powers and this has been sanctioned by a Committee of the House of Commons. Thus out of a possible 2d. already 1½d. is allocated to technical education. A further ½d. would mean a sum of £880, but to carry on education already in existence and which would, under the Bill, come to be provided for by this ½d., larger sums are necessary. At present the expenditure is—

  Organised Science Classes

  £402

  8

  1

  Pupil Teachers Central Classes

  436

  12

  0

  And on the recreative evening classes a rent would have to be paid for use of schools

  300

  0

  0

  £1139

  0

  1

  being far in excess of the £880, obtainable by the, ½d. rate. This is a case of a typical progressive town, and I can say that more than a 2d. rate could be very profitably expended. If there is any fear on the part of the Government of a County Borough Council being too extravagant, the ratepayers will soon turn them out at election times if they go too far, and this will constitute a wholesome check on any extravagance. The experience of Halifax is the same as that of Manchester, Bradford, and other large and progressive centres, and it would be wise to give them a free hand. It may be argued, however, that lazy and non-progressive areas would not raise sufficient if the amount were left to their discretion, in which case I would say fix a minimum and take care that it is wisely spent. Why should education and free libraries and wash houses he the only items of municipal expenditure which are limited in amount? Any sums may be spent on police, drains, paving, etc., and yet
  1604
  perhaps the most important items of municipal expenditure are limited to a fixed rate. It is a most illogical proceeding. Reference has been often made in this debate to America, a country I frequently visit. What do we find there? Take the city of Worcester, which is about the same size as the town of Halifax, Yorkshire. In addition to their elementary and high schools they have a Teachers Training School and a Polytechnic, to which latter students go from nineteen to twenty-two years of age. In Halifax we have neither of these institutions. In Worcester students over fifteen years of age attending public schools amount to 3,362, but in Halifax to only about 80. The cost of students per head in the high and elementary schools and kindergarten in Worcester is £22 8s. 6d., but in Halifax only £3 2s. 9d. Can we expect to cope in business with such figures of expenditure against us? Further, by the laws of Massachusetts, every city of 50,000 or more inhabitants shall maintain annually an evening high school in which shall be taught such subjects as the School Committee thereof consider expedient, if fifty or more residents fourteen years of age or over, who are competent in the opinion of the School Committee to pursue high school studies, shall petition in writing for an evening high school, and certify that they desire to attend such school. Further, every city and every town containing, according to the latest census, 500 families or householders, shall, and any other town may, maintain a high school adequately equipped. A town of less than 500 families or householders in which a public, high school or a public school of corresponding grade is not maintained, shall pay for the tuition of any child who resides in said town, and who, with the previous approval of the School Committee of his own town, attends the high school of another town or city. A town which neglects or refuses to raise money for the support of schools as required by this chapter shall forfeit an amount equal to twice the highest sum ever before voted for the support of schools therein. As a consequence of such splendid equipment for secondary education, we find in all American workshops graduates of technical schools and colleges,

  1605
  not the rule of thumb man, but the best trained brains of that continent, and if we mean to compete against such skilled intelligence we must equip our secondary schools in an equal or superior manner, and therefore I ask the Committee to allow the local education authority to be the judge of the amount of rate required in its own district for secondary education.
  MR. MIDDLEMOREsaid that some Members on the Ministerial side had been a good deal surprised and chagrined at this Clause. They deeply regretted the optional character of the Clause, and also that their rights of rating themselves had been limited and interfered with. They felt that it was a humiliation for the local authorities. They regarded secondary education as the greatest educational need of the country. That had been recognised for a generation. Not only was our prosperity imperilled, but what was ten times more important, our manhood and womanhood seemed seriously to suffer. We could not travel in Switzerland, Germany, or the United States, without feeling that at any rate so far as the rank and file were concerned, we were among a more intelligent and a more cultivated race than our own. What had been done to mitigate this national dishonour that had gradually been established in our midst? There was a permissive clause and a limited rate so far as the local authority was concerned. Why should they come hat in hand to the great educational authority in London and pray to be permitted to rate themselves for their own advantage? If they over-rated themselves they would suffer, and if they under-rated and neglected themselves they would suffer. Why should they be interfered with? Why should they be perpetually in leading strings? So far from being discouraged, he thought they should be encouraged by the amplest grant from the national Exchequer in this great object. He for one cordially supported with all his heart a Unionist and Imperialist Government, but he would entreat the First Lord not to make it too difficult for him and those who thought like him to do so.
  MR. BRYCEsaid he was not surprised that the previous speaker, a representative of a great city which had
  1606
  distinguished itself by educational energy, should have spoken as the hon. Member had done. He could not help hoping that the First Lord of the Treasury, who had shown an open mind during the last two days, would consider the proposal now before the Committee, and he hoped the speech of the hon. Member would induce the First Lord of the Treasury not to make the question a Government question, but to allow Members to vote according to their inclinations. He thought the local education authority might be safely trusted not to spend more on secondary education than the electors desired. The right hon. Gentleman said they must not alarm the electors, and that it was better to go slowly and cautiously in the rural districts where the alarm existed. Then the right hon. Gentleman said that the State already spent £1,500,000 on secondary education. Of course in a sense that was true, but that amount was almost entirely spent either upon technical education or upon those schools covered by the Cockerton decision, which lay on the borderland, and which did not include a great deal of what the Committee desired to promote in the name of secondary education proper. Therefore, the right hon. Gentleman's argument was not altogether correct. They had no means at present of knowing what money would be wanted. The needs of secondary education would be entirely different in different parts of the country. In some places the 2d. rate would be sufficient, but in large towns it would be entirely inadequate, and if the local authorities were willing to spend more on secondary education, what reason in the world was there why they should be refused power to do so? If there was a case in which the local authorities ought to be trusted this was the particular instance. Could any one say that there was danger that harm would be done, or that waste would be incurred by spending too much money? He did not believe it. Where the money came out of the pockets of the ratepayers there was every reason for the exercise of economy. He, therefore, earnestly hoped that the Government would give a certain amount of freedom to the Committee on this matter.
  MR. DUKEsaid that last night he had supported the Government when an attack was made upon the independence of rural councils by a proposal to place them under the direct control of the Education Board. He had no desire that any coercion should be used against rural County Councils, but he protested against coercion being used to hamper the natural action of progressive Borough Councils. He hoped it was not too late for the Government to take a consistent line, and that they would allow Borough Councils, who desired, and whose constituencies desired, to spend money on education, to spend it. He hoped the Government would see their way to give the Committee a free hand in this matter, so that they might be able, without further discussion, to come to some practical arrangement retaining to borough councils the independence which was retained last night for the rural counties.
  MR. HALDANEsaid the Committee had heard speeches from three representatives of great cities, and the evidence was that those local authorities should be free from restrictions which might operate in a very mischievous manner. The work of Birmingham was a striking instance of what municipal authorities would do if they were allowed. There was a very great responsibility on the local authorities, and he thought it was very hard that they should not be allowed to exercise their own judgment. He respectfully urged upon the Leader of the House that he should leave the House free on this occasion, as in the last division, to express their opinions without distinction of Party.
  LORD WILLOUGHBY DE ERESBYsaid he could not think that some hon. Members had taken a very consistent attitude. Whenever the question of economy could be put in practice, the majority of the House appeared to vote against it, but immediately there was a question of spending the rates to any amount, then there appeared to be a feeling that that should be done. If higher education was good for the country, why did those who advocated it not have the honesty to say there
  1608
  should be a tax for it. If it were pro posed to put a shilling on the income tax or to impose an extra shilling on corn he supposed they would all be found in the Lobby voting against it. He himself would be inclined to support the Amendment if it were not for the last words, which did not indicate by whom the additional sum which might be spent was to be required. They in Lincolnshire were not made of money like the people in Liverpool and other places, and if the Board of Education sent down to Lincolnshire and ordered them to build a training school for teachers, by whom was the expense to be provided. It was a very curious position to place the local authority in. The moment they took up a question of economy the County Council was hampered, but they were encouraged to spend money.
  MR. LAWSON WALTONsaid that the noble Lord who had just spoken had declared that he was true to his principles, but his principles allowed him to approve of devolution, only provided it did not receive any practical application. He thought he could relieve the noble Lord from his apprehension that the Amendment would have the result which he anticipated. The words "as may be required" would mean, in their present context, as may be required in the opinion of the County Council. The early language of the Clause gave the County Council the power to inquire as to the needs of education in their area, then to arrive at such a scheme as they might think necessary to deal with that necessity, and the Clause concluded by the general statement that the County Council was empowered to raise out of the rates such additional sum as might be required to give effect to the resolution which they had arrived at. That added to the consistency of the Clause. The position of the Government in regard to this matter was very difficult to explain; because when the Committee were discussing whether or not the County Council were to be allowed to do nothing, the Government insisted that they were to be left free to do nothing because of the importance of recognising their independence, and maintaining the sacred principle of devolution enshrined in the Bill. But when the question arose

  1609
  whether or nut the County Councils were to do as they liked, and grant sums out of the rates, the Government resorted to the method of restricting the independence of these bodies and limiting their powers. He wished to say one word in regard to the practical application of this Clause as it affected constituencies of the class in which he was interested, He represented in this House a very large borough area and it could not be imagined what a strong feeling of rising resentment had naturally been created in that area, by the very strict limitation which the Clause imposed on the city of Leeds with its enormous population They were restricted to a rate of 2d., but on what principle the limit of 2d. had been arrived at had novel been expounded. It might have been 4d., or 3d. or 4½d. To make the limit of 2d. equally applicable to counties like Gloucestershire, and great cities like Manchester and Liverpool was unworthy of Parliament. By what process of logic had this 2d. been arrived at? Why had the Government come to the conclusion that a 1d. was to be disregarded and 3d. was undesirable, and that 2d. was the sacred sum? He would point to the deplorable educational Heptarchy in which they would be involved by this legislation. Different schemes would be sanctioned in different areas by the separate authorities, some of which might be educationally apathetic and others progressive, but on all there would be imposed this cast-iron regulation. There were two fatal blemishes in the Clause: first, it did not leave the local authorities an unfettered judgment, and second, it did not discriminate between urban and rural areas in imposing the limit of taxation. And then it created a difficulty arising out of possible friction between the Education Department and a local authority, for the First Lord of the Treasury had told the Committee that nothing was more easy than to get rid of this limitation, because if the local authority wanted to spend more money they could have recourse to the Education Department.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Not the Education Department, but the Local Government Board.
  MR. LAWSON WALTON: Well, the Local Government Board, but that was worse. If there was apprehension in regard to the Education Department, which they were told was acute throughout the country, it was ten times greater in regard to the Local Government Board. So that whenever such a constituency as he represented, or as was represented by his hon. friends opposite—cities such as Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool, and Birmingham—with a limitation to 2d., there would at once be an appeal to the Local Government Board, and possibly the Local Government Board would institute an inquiry as to the grounds on which this rate was to be exceeded. After that there would be a Provisional Order to allow the local authorities to spend what money they pleased. These were matters on which they were entitled to more explanation; and they also wanted to know why the 2d. limit had been adopted, and why, in this respect, the important principle of devolution had been abandoned.
  MR. NUSSEYappealed to the Government whether it was not possible for them to make some concession on this point.
  EARL PERCYsaid he sincerely hoped that the Government would stick to their guns on this occasion. Already too much had been given in the way of concession. He opposed the Amendment in the interests of secondary education. He agreed with the First Lord that nothing was more likely to retard the cause of education than to make the ratepayers dread a largely increased rate. That was precisely the reason why there had been so much hostility to School Board work. He thought it was too late to talk about local educational autonomy. They could not give the local authority a free hand to spend what they liked, and yet not give them the right to retrench if they pleased. There might be something to be said for the Amendment if any attempt had been made to prove that the 2d. rate would not be sufficient, at any rate to begin the work of organisation and co-ordination. He did not want to start a system of secondary education in this country on

  1611
  the assumption that secondary education was to be free. He wanted the local educational authority to consider how much money could he raised, and then how it could he spent, either by giving all children a secondary education, or by offering scholarships in higher schools to the poorest and cleverest children. Surely on the lowest grounds that was the best way to rouse the interest of the ratepayers in secondary education.
  MR. WHITLEYsaid that the noble Lord had stated that 2d. would be sufficient to enable the local educational authority to give a start to secondary education. In his own constituency they had applied to Parliament this session and obtained the consent of Parliament to a rate of 1½d. for technical instruction in addition to the whisky money and the Treasury grant. That would enable them to take over the evening continuation schools, the higher grade schools, and the training of teachers. That would require an expenditure of £300 a year more than the 2d. limit imposed by the Bill would provide. The Local Government Board was the last of all bodies which should hold a local inquiry in regard to education. Probably a half-pay colonel would conduct the inquiry as to whether a county borough ought or ought not to be allowed to spend more than a 2d. rate on higher education! That was a somewhat ludicrous position in which to put the secondary education system. The local educational authorities ought not to be hampered with absurd limitations of this kind. He happened to have a good deal to do with education, both primary and secondary, in his own constituency, and he said honestly that with all the expenditure they were now readily and willingly spending on education, there was not one half the provision there ought to be in that centre for secondary education. He appealed to the First Lord of the Treasury not to take a hard-and-fast line on this question. The right hon. Gentleman was quite aware that there was a very strong-feeling on both sides of the House that this would be a very unwise limitation, Let the House consider the absurdity of
  1612
  what they are doing. The First Lord had made an announcement that a million and a half of money would be given from the Treasury for the purposes of primary education. How would that affect the provision for secondary education? Obviously it would encourage the local authorities to give their greatest attention to primary education to the neglect of secondary education. He believed that in the case of backward authorities it would be an actual temptation to keep scholars at primary education when they were fit for secondary education; for not only was it proposed to give a lump grant to every scholar in the primary schools, but also every additional scholar placed in the primary department would increase the divisor by which the grant was to be computed. That would often be an inducement to the local authorities to stop at primary education.
  MR. HERBERT LEWISsaid that this subject was of immense importance to the great urban communities. The main question to be decided was whether these were to be favoured in regard to the development of secondary education. So far as the rural counties were concerned, nothing need be feared as to extravagance. He had been asked what was the cost of secondary education in Wales. They used the whisky money, raised a halfpenny rate, and they had the additional Treasury grant. He did not think that would be considered excessive, even if secondary education was organised throughout the rural counties of England and Wales. He maintained that the Committee would be doing an injustice to the great urban communities by limiting the rate to 2d. It would be putting a slight upon them, and prevent them from carrying out the organisation of secondary education in the future in a manner which they considered most conducive to the interests of secondary education.
  (11.57.) Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 178; Noes, 135. (Division List No. 246.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F.

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Newdigate, Francis Alexander

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Flower, Ernest

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Forster, Henry William

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Calloway, William Johnson

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Godson, Sir Augustus Fred'k.

  Parker, Gilbert

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elg.&Nairn

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

  Percy, Earl

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

  Gore, Hn. G. R C Ormsby-(Salop

  Prerpoint, Robert

  Balfour, Cap. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon

  Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Rich'rd

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds)

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Gretton, John

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Beach, Rt. Hon. Sir Mic. Hicks

  Groves, James Grimble.

  Purvis, Robert

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Pym, C. Guy

  Bill, Charles

  Hamilton, Rt Ha Ld G. (Midd'x

  Randles, John S.

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Hamilton, Marq. of (London'y

  Resell, Major Frederic Carne

  Bond, Edward

  Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm.

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Brassey, Albert

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Haslam, Sir Allied S.

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Renwick, Geonge

  Bull, William James

  Heath, Arthur Ho'ard (Hanley

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Butcher, John George

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Carlile, William Walter

  Hope, J. F. (Shef'ld, Brightside

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Round, James

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.

  Hoult, Joseph

  Rutherford, John

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Howard, John (Kent, Faversh.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Button, John (Yorks, N. R.)

  Sadler, Col Samuel Alexander

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Seely, Chas Hilton (Lincoln)

  Chamberlain, J. Aust. (Worc'r

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Seton-Karr, Henry

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Kimber, Henry

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew

  Chapman, Edward

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)

  Charrington, Spencer

  Lawrence, Joseph (Monmouth

  Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks)

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Lawson, John Grant

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Clive, Capt. Percy A.

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Spear, John Ward

  Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready

  Leveson-Gower, Fred K N. S.

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, Noth)

  Long, Rt. Hn. Waller (Bristol, S.

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge

  Lowe, Francis William

  Stock, James Henry

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf. Univ.

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Lucas, Regi'ld J. (Portsmouth

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Macdona, John Gumming

  Valentia, Viscount

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Dorington, Sir John Edward

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Doughty, George

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Montagu, Hon. J. Scot (Hants

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H (York.

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. Hart

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropsh.)

  Wylie, Alexander

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.

  Morgan, Day. J. (Walthamst.

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J. (Manc'r

  Morton, Arthur H. A. (Dept.)

  Finch, George H.

  Mount, William Arthur

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Grab. (Bute

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry

  Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Caldwell, James

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Allen, Chas. P. (Glouc., Stroud

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Crean, Eugene

  Ambrose, Robert

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Cremer, William Randal

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Boland, John

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Delany, William

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Dickson-Poynder, Sit John P.

  1614

  1615

  Dillon, John

  Levy, Maurice

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Doogan, P. C.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Reddy, M.

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Lloyd-George, David

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Lundon, W.

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Ffreneh, Peter

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Roche, John

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  MacVeagh Jeremiah

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Flynn, James Christopher

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  M'Govern, T.

  Runciman, Walter

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  M'Kean, John

  Russell, T. W.

  Gilhooly, James

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Shnw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb'rt J'hn

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Middlemore, Jn. Throgmorton

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Grant Corrie

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Green, Walford D. (Wednesbry

  Moss, Samuel

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (Nortbnts

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Sullivan, Donal

  Haldane, Richard Burdon

  Murnaghan, George

  Tennant, Harold John

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydv'l

  Murphy, John

  Thomas, Alfd. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Thompson, Dr. EC (Monagh'n N

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Thomson, F. W. (York. W. R.)

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Norman, Henry

  Tomkinson, James

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Toulmin, George

  Holland, William Henry

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Tully, Jasper

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipper'ry Mid

  Ure, Alexander

  Horniman, Frederick John

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Walton, Jn. Lawson (Leeds, S.)

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary,'N.)

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Humphreys Owen, Arthur C.

  O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Jones, William (Carn'rvonshire

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Dowd, John

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Kitson, Sir James

  O'Malley, William

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk. Mid

  Lambert, George

  O'Shaughnessv, P. J.

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Wood, James

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Peel, Hn Wm Robert Wellesley

  Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Leamy, Edmund

  Philipps, John Wynford

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Mr. Alfred Hutton and Mr. J. H. Whitley.

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accringt'n

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  It being after midnight, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
  Committee report progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

  IRISH VALUATION ACTS.
  Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire and report what changes in the Irish Valuation Acts are desirable, in order to enable a re-valuation of ratable property in any district to be made on a basis equitable to all classes of ratepayers, and to be brought into force in an effective manner.—(Mr. Wyndham.)

  METROPOLITAN WATER COMPANIES (ACCOUNTS).
  Return ordered, "of the accounts, as they are respectively made up, of the Metropolitan Water Companies, and of the Staines Reservoirs Joint Committer, to the 30th day of September, and the
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  31st day of December, 1901 (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper No. 295 of Session 1901)."—(Mr. Grant Lawson.)

  TRUSTEE SAVINGS BANKS, 1901.
  Returns ordered (1) from each savings bank in England and Wales, Scotland, Ireland, and the Channel Islands, containing, in columns, the names of the officers, their respective salaries, and other allowances, if any; the amount of security each gives; the annual expanses of management, inclusive of all payments and salaries, for the year ended the 20th day of November, 1901; the rate per cent. per annum on the capital of the bank for the expenses of management; the rate of interest paid to depositors on the various amounts of deposit, and the average rate of interest on all accounts; the number of accounts remaining open; the total amount owing to depositors; the total amount invested with the

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  Commissioners for the Redaction of the National Debt; the balance in the hands of the treasurer at the 20th day of November, 1901; the total amount of the separate surplus fund on the 20th day of November, 1901; other assets, including estimated value of bank premises, furniture, etc.; the total assets; the total amount of Government Stock standing to the credit of depositors; the number and amount of annuities granted; and the average cost of each transaction; also the year in which business commenced in each bank, and the name of the day or days, and the number of hours in the week, on which the banks are open for the deposit and withdrawal of moneys; including in such Return a list of all such Savings Banks as, under the provisions of the Act 26 Vic. c. 14, or otherwise, have been closed and have transferred their funds, or any part thereof, to the Post Office Savings Banks; showing, in each ease, the number of such banks, as well as the number and amount of depositors' accounts so transferred, and the amount of compensation, if any, made to all or any of the officers of such banks respectively; and showing also the years in which such banks were respectively opened and closed, and the number and amount of their depositors' balances, and the number of days and hours in each week on which the same banks were open for public business at the close of the year next preceding the date of such closing;
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  distinguishing the same, as in the Return, for each separate county, as well as collectively, for England and Wales, Scotland, Ireland, and the Channel Islands, and for the United Kingdom; and (2) for the year ending the 20th day of November, 1901, showing the total number of depositors in trustee savings banks; the total number of deposits; the average amount of each deposit account; the average sums paid in and drawn out; the total number of persons who have deposited in single sums the entire amount allowed to be deposited during the year (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper No. 220 of Session 1901).—(Mr. Mount.)
  Public Income and Expenditure—Return ordered, "Of Net Public Income and Net Public Expenditure under certain specified heads, as represented by Receipts into and Issues out of the Exchequer, from 1880–81 to 1901–2, inclusive (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper No. 319 of Session 1901)."—(Sir Henry Fowler.)

  ILLNESS OF THE KING.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I beg to move that the House do now adjourn. I may at the same time communicate to the House a message I have received, dated about eleven o'clock, to this effect: "The King's condition is unchanged; His Majesty goes on satisfactorily."
  Adjourned at a quarter after Twelve o'clock.