HC Deb 28 July 1902 vol 111 cc1441-59

[MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT.]

(9.0.) MR. SWIFT MACNEILL (Donegal, S.)

I beg, Sir, to move the adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance—namely, the composition of the Commission appointed to inquire into the sentences imposed by military Courts established under martial law in the South African Colonies and Protectorates. I do not think that any one who wishes to maintain the usefulness of the House, and to enable it to discharge its primary duty as a Grand Inquisition, will disapprove of the discussion of the constitution of the Commission appointed to inquire into the sentences passed under martial law in South Africa. The Commission is of a novel and extraordinary character. It is composed of the Lord Chief Justice of England. Mr. Justice Bigham, and Major General Sir John Ardagh. It is a matter for regret that the first important and far-reaching act of the new Prime Minister should not have been communicated and explained to the House, whose servant the right hon. Gentleman is, or ought to be. Before I deal with the composition of the Commission I wish to read the terms of reference, which were communicated to the public Press instead of to the House. I know I shall not be in order in discussing the scope of the reference, but it is impossible for me to state my objections to the constitution of the Commission if I do not first put the House in possession of what the Commission is to investigate. These are the terms of reference— The King has been pleased to approve of the appointment of a Royal Commission to proceed to South Africa to inquire into the sentences imposed by Military Courts established under martial law in the South African Colonies and Protectorates; and to report whether, in the case of persons sentenced to terms of penal servitude and of imprisonment, and to the payment of fines, who are at the date of the Report of the Commission undergoing any such sentences, or have not paid but are then liable to pay any such lines, it is expedient, having regard to all the circumstances, that such sentences or fines should be remitted or reduced. The Commissioners will be empowered to examine the records of the proceedings, depositions, and other documents, and, in any special case in which they deem it necessary, to call before them persons whom they may judge likely to afford any information upon the subject of the Commission. My first contention is that Judges of the High Court should not be selected by the Government for a Commission of this character, which is largely political in its nature, I do not impugn the action of the Judges in accepting the position, but I submit, with all respect, that I am well within my Parliamentary rights in condemning the Government for appointing them. There is no precedent for the appointment of a Lord Chief Justice in matters of this kind, which is to interfere with a matter of purely domestic political concern. It is, of course, well known that Lord Chief Justice Cockburn acted on the Geneva Arbitration, and Lord Chief Justice Killowen on the Venezuelan Arbitration, but I submit that these cases have no analogy whatever to the present one. I have sometimes been given a little credit for some knowledge of historical matters, but I say—and I challenge anyone to deny it — that there has been nothing approaching such a combination of judicial and political powers vested in a Lord Chief Justice of England since 1806, when Lord Ellenborough was invited to take a seat in the Cabinet; and on that occasion Mr. Perceval— afterwards Prime Minister—entered a strong protest against the appointment. From that day to this the Lord Chief Justice has been prevented from acting in a political capacity. The question whether the duties which the Lord Chief Justice and Mr. Justice Bigham have been appointed under this question to discharge are or are not actually political in their nature is not of so much consequence as whether they will be considered political both in this country and in South Africa. But, as evidence of the actual political nature of the appointments and of the actual belief of the "man in the street" on that point, I propose to quote from the leading articles in the Standard and the Morning Post— organs which support the Government, whose editors are the Ministerial fuglemen, and whose duty it is to create a factitious public opinion in favour of their policy. I begin with the Standard, which says— The appointment, which we announce this morning, of a Royal Commission to examine and report on the sentences passed by the Military Courts established under martial law in South Africa, is for obvious reasons a desirable, and even a necessary measure. There can be no question as to the qualifications of the Commissioners. Nobody would dream of disputing the competence of the Lord Chief Justice and of Mr. Justice Bigham, while Sir John Ardagh, who is joined with them, is not only a distinguished soldier, but has also had a very varied experience, of an administrative character, as member of the Mission which delimited the Greco - Turkish frontier, as private secretary to Lord Lansdowne, and for a short time to Lord Elgin in India, and as British Delegate to the Peace Conference at the Hague. The delicate work to be done— which, while mainly judicial, is not without a political element — could not be in better hands than those of two eminent lawyers and a military officer who is at the same time a trained man of affairs. The Commission is not sent out to hear appeals from all the decisions of the Military Courts. To permit a general re-opening of questions already settled would be one of the worst possible ways of confirming the re-establishment of Peace in South Africa. The reference to the Commission is, however, sufficiently wide. It is to consider all sentences of penal servitude and fine in those cases in which the term of imprisonment has not been completed, or the fine paid, and to report whether 'having regard to all the circumstances,' it is expedient to remit or reduce the punishment. The Lord Chief Justice and his colleagues will, in fact, he employed to advise on the exercise of the Royal prerogative of mercy with an equal regard to judicial and political considerations. The Morning Post on the same day thus announces the appointments— The Government has appointed a Royal Commission whose task is, in short, to review the sentences passed by Military Courts in South Africa, and to review such sentences on the spot. No fault can be found with the constitution of the Commission. Even if the Lord Chief Justice of England were not the capable and the conscientious judge we all know him to be, his appointment would please and flatter the Boers, who do not as a rule quite comprehend that the head of the legal profession in England is the Lord Chancellor. To them a Chief Justice is a Chief Justice. Mr. Justice Bigham is a painstaking and an impartial executor of the law, and the South African loyalists, who will certainly examine his record with intense curiosity, are not likely to find in his political career any excuse for supposing that he will be disposed towards an undesirable leniency. Major-General Sir John Ardagh is a military man, whose knowledge of South African affairs should be pretty complete, for he represented the Government on the Expelled Aliens Commission, and has lately spent some months in South Africa. Without him, or without any officer of equal standing and equally practised in military law, the Commission would have been singularly incomplete. Lawyers have a tendency to dislike martial law. But martial law carefully exercised, as it was exercised during the late war, generally secures justice. The trials of Kruitzinger, Scheepers, and Cordua proved that before a Military Court composed of officers, who are all the more anxious to be just in proportion as they are unacquainted with legal procedure, the prisoner has more chances than he would get in a legal court of summary jurisdiction. Sir John Ardagh's presence on the Commission will probably prevent the legal members from laying too great stress on slight informalities or irregularities of procedure where substantial justice has been done. At the same time, the appointment of such a Commission may be made the occasion for some plain speaking. For one reason we are intensely glad that it has been appointed. The fact that the sentences of the Military Courts are to be examined is in itself a proof that there is to be no weak general amnesty. These are the statements of men who, sitting in editorial chairs, are the mouthpieces of the Party and of the Prime Minister. It may be a small thing, but it is subsidiary to my argument, the absolute necessity for keeping the Lord Chief Justice outside political issues, that English statute law has made a special provision excluding the Lord Chief Justice, alone of all the judges of the land, from taking any part whatever in the trials of election petitions. I wish to ask the Prime Minister a question, and I regret that the right hon. Gentleman does not consider it his duty to be in his place. [At this moment the attention of the hon. Member was drawn to the fact that the Prime Minister was standing between the Speaker's chair and the Front Ministerial Bench.] I am glad to see the Prime Minister present, and may I add "Welcome, little stranger"? [Cries of "Order!"] I desire to know why, out of the whole body of the English judiciary —including the Lords of Appeal —the Government have chosen to appoint two learned judges who, as Members of the House of Commons, were members of the South African Committee, and were prominently distinguished by their hostility to the Boers. Lord Alverstone, as Attorney General, was a prominent member of the South African Committee, and Mr. Justice Bigham was even more prominent. One thing I must say—and it has been abundantly proved —that the crowning mistake of the South African Committee was that it did not insist on the production of the Rhodes-Hawkesley correspondence, in which the conspiracy of the Colonial Office would have been shown.

*MR. SPEAKER

Order, order ! That has nothing whatever to do with the composition of this Commission.

MR. SWIFT MACNEILL

Have I not a right to show that the judges were members of a Committee which prevented the production of documents which, it published, would have prevented the war?

*MR. SPEAKER

But the hon. Member must not make an attack on the judges.

MR. SWIFT MACNEILL

I am not attacking these two judges qua judges: I am making an attack on events in their previous careers, which unfit them, as I say, to serve on this Commission. I am not attacking them as judges in any way, but I am attacking the Government for appointing them—the appointment being one, in consequence of the incidents I have named, which is calculated to create distrust of the Commission in South Africa, I know South Africa. I know something of South African opinion, and every one there agrees that the war hinged on the non-production of this correspondence. The Lord Chief Justice (as Attorney General) and Mr. Justice Bigham prevented its production when Mr. Hawkesley would have been glad to produce it. Let me prove this by reading a few extracts from the examination of Mr. Hawkesley by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Monmouthshire, [The hon. Member proceeded to read extracts.]

*MR. SPEAKER

Order, order ! The hon. Member is not justified in this. He is discussing the ground on which the letters should have been produced, and if he were permitted to do that he might read the whole evidence, and then say he objected to the two learned judges being members of the Committee. He must confine himself to the question of the composition of the Committee. In doing that he cannot go into transactions in which other gentlemen were engaged.

MR. SWIFT MACNEILL

I intended to go into one transaction only, and that was the conduct of the Lord Chief Justice and Mr. Justice Bigham in suppressing this correspondence—an act which generated the war. The Morning Post says— South African loyalists will examine Mr. Justice Bigham with intense curiosity. And adds that he is not likely to lean to the side of "undesirable leniency." To increase the confidence of South African loyalists, I may say that Mr. Justice Bigham has been hand-and-glove with the instigators of the Jameson Raid.

*MR. SPEAKER

Order, order ! The hon. Member is now attacking Mr. Justice Bigham in a way he is not entitled to do.

MR. SWIFT MACNEILL

I am not making an attack on that learned judge. I am attacking the Government for appointing him.

*MR. SPEAKER

In my opinion the hon. Member is attacking Mr. Justice Bigham, and he must not do so.

MR. SWIFT MACNEILL

Very well, Sir. But I will, with your permission, read a letter sent on the eve of the sitting of the Commission by Mr. Justice Bigham to Mr. Hawkesley, the solicitor for Mr. Rhodes and the Chartered Company—

"Goldsmith Buildings,

"Temple,

"Aug. 7th, 1896.

"Dear Mr. Hawkesley,—Can Mr. Charles Leonard come down to the House of Commons tomorrow at five o'clock? The (South African) Committee meet privately at half-past four in Colonel Legge's room, and I would see Leonard immediately after the meeting breaks up.

"Yours truly,

"JOHN C. BIGHAM."

This letter was read in this House by the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil during the South African debate, when the conduct of the Government in not producing the Hawkesley correspondence was attacked; and on February 26th, 1900, the following reply from Mr. Justice Bigham was read—

"Feb. 26th, 1900.

"The South African Committee".

To the Editor of The Times. Sir,—During the debate on Tuesday last, Mr. Thomas, M. P., referred to a letter of mine addressed to Mr. Hawkesley in August, 1896. As Mr. Thomas seems to think that the letter ought not to have been written, and as he has made his opinion public, will you allow me to say why it was written? I wished to know much more than I did then know about the alleged grievances of the Uitlanders, and I was told I could get full particulars of the complaints from Mr. Leonard. I was further told that Mr. Leonard was in London and that Mr. Hawkesley knew his address. I knew Mr. Hawkesley slightly, and therefore I wrote to him asking him to be good enough to procure for me an interview with Mr. Leonard. The incident took place long before the Committee commenced its inquiry and before I had any idea that Mr. Leonard would be called as a witness.

"Very truly yours,

"JOHN C. BIGHAM.

"Newcastle-on-Tyne."

*MR. SPEAKER

Order, order! The hon. Member is abusing his privilege. After having obtained leave to move the adjournment, he is proceeding to open up the question of the Jameson Raid and the action of the South African Committee.

MR. SWIFT MACNEILL

I am not endeavouring to do anything of the kind.

*MR. SPEAKER

I accept the hon. Member's statement that he is not endeavouring to do it; but he is doing it, nevertheless.

MR. SWIFT MACNEILL

If I was, it was unintentional. I will generally wind up my case by saying that I regard it as highly objectionable for the Government to appoint two gentlemen who have taken a prominent part on one side in one of the most fierce racial conflicts ever known in South Africa. They are not persons to command the respect of the South African public, or to exercise any real or lasting influence of a healing nature on the disturbed condition of South Africa. As regards Sir John Ardagh, I do not wish to say anything, except that I hope that the Government will take his advice this time. He was the gentleman whose advice the Government did not take when, as Chief of the Intelligence Department, he told them all about the Boer preparations. I regard the association of a military gentleman with two legal gentlemen as a novel and improper method of administering justice, either politically or judicially. I think I have said sufficient to show that the constitution of the Commission is not such as one would have expected a Government, anxious to maintain peace between the two races in South Africa, to propose. I cannot discuss the scope of the inquiry, but I have stated what the inquiry is to be in general terms, because otherwise I would not have been able to pass the strictures which I have thought it my duty, as a Member of the House of Commons, to pass on the composition of the Commission. What I had said tonight will be said throughout South Africa in a short time. The First Lord of the Treasury answered, very curiously a Question put to him some time ago as to whether there would be a general amnesty in South Africa. It was expected that there would be a general amnesty, but instead of that there is to be a Commission, consisting of two gentlemen whose leanings are well known, and a general officer; and, as far as I can see, there is to be no general amnesty or a desire to smooth away differences in South Africa. I would gladly say a great deal more, as, unlike the First Lord of the Treasury, I think that the first place in which strictures should be passed on the Commission is the House of Commons. I have made intentionally no attack on the members of the Commission; but I have attacked the Government for the composition of the Commission, as it is calculated to promote ill-will, disunion, and suspicion in South Africa, and to lower the character of the judicial bench. I beg to move.

(9.36.) MR. BLACK (Banffshire)

I beg to second the Motion of my hon. and learned friend. It would have been very convenient if, before we began this discussion, we had some statement as to the appointment of the Commission. It seems to me that the appointment of these gentlemen will be regarded as a sign of weakness abroad, as it is regarded as a sign of a bad conscience on the part of the Government at home. Why have the Government appointed this Commission if they do not believe that something requires revision in the action of these military courts? Let me examine who are the parties who are to compose this Commission. In the first place, let me associate myself very cordially with what my hon. and learned friend said — that there is no question that the two learned Gentlemen who have been appointed on this Commission are not fair minded men; the question is, whether they will be so considered by the Dutch population in South Africa. It seems to me to be a fatal defect of judgment on the part of the Government that they have shown themselves totally incapable of placing themselves in the position of members of small nationalities. That is all the more remarkable because three or four Members of the Government are Scotchmen, and Scotland has been subjected in times past to the very ills to which South Africa has been subjected. We have had martial law in Scotland, and the memory of it rankles still. What is the position of Lord Alverstone, who is Chairman of the Commission, in relation to the present Government? Not only was he a member of the Jameson Raid Commission, but he was Attorney General at the time the war was initiated, and at the time these very Military Courts whose decisions are to be revised were set up. So far as the Boers are concerned, they will look on Lord Alverstone as the initiator of the very matters to be inquired into, and as one who may have advised the Government on those very constitutional questions that may have to be reviewed. In times past we had in Scotland a man of the name of Sir George Mackenzie. He lives in Scottish history as "Bluidy Mackenzie." He was as courteous a gentleman as Lord Alverstone, but still it would have been highly inappropriate for the British Government at that time to have sent him to judge the drumhead Courts Martial of Claver-house. That would have rankled for all time in the Scottish mind. As regards the particular matter with which we are dealing, supposing a noble member of the house, of Cecil, whose zeal had outrun his discretion, had committed an indiscretion, how would it be liked if his case were to be revised by Mr. Kruger's Atttorney General? That is precisely the position we have got to deal with. Then as to Mr. Justice Bigham, I suppose one of his recommendations is that he is not very well known, except in connection with the Jameson Raid Inquiry. That, I think, was the first occasion on which he figured before the public, and it is certainly the only means the Dutch in South Africa have of judging him. I think that the selection of these two judges out of the judges on the English Bench and the Scottish Bench, and Heaven only knows how many on the Irish Bench, is very un fortunate. Have they been appointed on the advice of the Premiers of Cape Colony and Natal? The Government have shown a singular predilection for following the advice of these gentlemen in preference to the advice of the House. One would like to know whether they have been consulted, and why the selection should have been confined to the judicial Bench at all. Are there not many men of learning and judicial acumen who might have commanded the respect both of the Dutch and the British in South Africa I beg to second the Motion.

Motion made and Question proposed, 'That this House do now adjourn."— (Mr. Swift MacNeill.)

(9.43.) THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. BRODRICK,) Surrey, Guildford

I must say that those of us who have listened to the speeches of the hon. Members will hardly see in them any justification for this most unjustifiable Motion. What is the question before the House? It is whether or not the small Commission appointed by the Government to inquire into the sentences given under martial law in South Africa is a competent Commission to decide the only question they have to decide—whether these sentences are contrary to law or contrary to military practice. With regard to the gentlemen who have been appointed on the Com mission, we have been assured by the hon. Member who made the Motion, not on the faith of any statement of the Government, but a newspaper article, that these judges have been appointed to interfere in a largely political question. And in order to support that idea, a variety of citations have been made as to the conduct of these judges when some years ago one of them was sitting on a Committee to give an opinion on matters then before him. There has not been one thing quoted, with regard either to the Lord Chief Justice or Mr. Justice Bigham, which had anything whatever to do with the question o: martial law. What would be the position of this House if any judge, having served in this House or outside it, was liable to have brought up against him, on a purely legal question, the fact that at one time or other he occupied a Party position in this House? No one at this moment who is administering martial law in South Africa has any connection whatever with the Government. The officers who have been appointed have, according to the best of their ability, in a very difficult situation, carried out the work entrusted to them. When a number of men who are not trained lawyers are suddenly called upon for a certain number of months to administer a very difficult set of regulations, at great distances from one another, without any power of co-ordination with a central authority, it is obvious that there will be occasions in which larger sentences might he given than should have been given, and occasions in which the same sentences might be given in different cases, though if the whole of the evidence were reviewed legally it might not lead to the same result. I cannot imagine any two men who would more largely command the confidence of Parliament than the present Lord Chief Justice and Mr. Justice Bigham when appointed to review sentences so given—not sentences given by their own colleagues or sentences for which the Government, to which the Lord Chief Justice undoubtedly once belonged, are in any way responsible I do think that a Motion of this kind is the most far-fetched attack on these judges that could possibly be conceived. As to Sir John Ardagh, who has been associated with them, he happens to have a particularly acute knowledge of military law, and with that capacity, and with the experience he has already gained in South Africa, I have not the slightest doubt that, not only will he be of the greatest assistance to the Commission, but that he will command the confidence of those who are brought before him. I do think it is a great misfortune that we should be led into a discussion of this kind in respect of a Commission that is going out with purely pacific objects. If I may reply in one sentence to the hon. Member for Banffshire, I would say that his attempt to compare what is taking place in South Africa with what took place in Scotland a century and a half ago is a libel on those who have had to administer martial law during the past year and I have no doubt that there would have been a scene of almost un seemly rejoicing in Scotland if three such men as we are now sending out to South Africa had reviewed the sentences passed under martial law in 1745. I do not answer this Motion at any length. I will not say it is brought forward deliberately to delay public business, but it has the effect of delaying public business. No opinion which has been expressed could possibly justify the Government in altering in the slightest degree the composition of the Commission, or in doubting for a moment the confidence in which it is held by the great majority of the country. The only effect of this discussion, which I hope is not intended, can be to create doubt in South Africa as to the competence and impartiality of men as to whose competence and impartiality the average Englishman would entertain no doubt whatever; and for that reason I would ask the House to reject the Motion.

SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN (Stirling Burghs)

The right hon. Gentleman said that this was an utterly indefensible Motion. In that I do not agree with him, because I think it is a Motion that arises not unnaturally from the fact that the House of Commons has been kept really in ignorance of the appointment of this Commission and the purpose for which it has been sent. There has been no announcement made to the House of Commons of the existence of tin's Commission—we have had to gather it from the public Press: and I think that if the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues had taken a little more pains to take the House of Commons into their confidence they might have avoided this Motion. But, while I think that it is not unnatural for my hon. and learned friend to have raised the question, he has confined himself to the personal aspect of the question; and I am bound to say that in the personal aspect of the question I cannot follow him in what he has said. I do not think it is necessary at all for us to examine closely into the history of the three eminent men who have been appointed to serve on the Commission. I am satisfied myself that the intention, and probably the effect, of the Commission will be found to be in the direction of

peace and pacification in South Africa. I confess at once that I welcome the appointment of the Commission as an indication of that intention on the part of the Government, and I hope that it will be successful. When we come to the personality of those who are members of the Commission I part company from ray hon. and learned friend. We know enough of the Lord Chief Justice and Mr. Justice Bigham in this House, and still more from our observation of their conduct in their judicial capacity, to be sure that they are not likely to do anything which would not justify the high confidence reposed in them. I do not think it is necessary for me to refer to the old story of the South Africa Committee or any of the other Commissions to which my hon. and learned friend has referred. I confess I do not think that anything can be gathered from what occurred then, or from any of the other circumstances to which he has referred, which can throw any discredit upon any one of the three members of the Commission. My hon. and learned friend has quoted passages from the public newspapers. The Government are not responsible for all the foolish things that day after day are published in the newspapers. I think that although, as I said at the beginning, it was not unnatural for my hon. and learned friend to raise the question, especially as the House of Commons has been kept largely in the dark upon the subject, yet I entirely dissociate myself from his view of the matter: and, although I have no responsibility in the matter, I can only say that this strikes me as a step taken by the Government which is entirely in the interest of the pacification of South Africa.

MP. A. J. BALFOUR

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

(9.53.) Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The House divided:—Ayes, 168; Noes, 122. (Division List No. 323.)

AYES.
Acland-Hood Capt. Sir Alex. F. Bagot, Capt, Josceline Fitz Roy Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manrh'r
Allhusen, Augustus Hen'y Eden Bailey, James (Walworth) Balfour. Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Bain, Col. James Robert Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W(Leeds
Atkinson. Rt. Hon. John Balcarres, Lord Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.
Banbury, Frederick George Hall, Edward Marshall Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Bartley, George C. T. Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Mid'x Powell, Su- Francis Sharp
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. Pretyman, Ernest George
Bignold, Arthur Harris, Frederick Leverton Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Bigwood, James Haslett, Sir James Horner Purvis, Robert
Blundell, Colonel Henry Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. Pym, C. Guy
Boscawen, Arthur Gririffith- Henderson, Sir Alexander Randles, John S.
Brodrick, Rt Hon. St. John Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Rankin, Sir James
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Hobhonse, Henry (Somerset, E. Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Butcher, John George Hope, J. F.(Sheffield, Brightside Ratchiff, R. F.
Carlile, William Walter Houldsworth, Sir Win. Henry Reid, James (Greenock)
Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) Renwick, George
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil Richards, Henry Charles
Chamberlain, J. Austen(Worc'r Hudson, George Bickersteth Rigg, Richard
Chapman, Edward Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.) Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Charrington, Spencer Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh) Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Cellings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop. Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready King, Sir Henry Seymour Samuel, Harry S. (Lime house)
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) kewes-Cox, Thomas
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th Smith, Abel H. (Hereford, East)
Cranborne, Lord Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Cripps, Charles Alfred Lee, Arthur H (Hants, Fareham Scares, Ernest J.
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Stanley, Edward Jas (Somerset
Crossley, Sir Savile Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Leveson-Gower, Fredcrick N. S. Stone, Sir Benjamin
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Llewellyn, Evan Henry Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Davenport, W. Bromley- Lookwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. Start, Hon. Humphry Napier
Dickson, Charles Scott Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Talbot, Rt Hn. J.G.(Oxf'd Univ.
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S. Tollemache, Henry James
Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. Lonsdale, John Brownlee Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth Tritton, Charles Ernest
Duke, Henry Edward Macartney, Rt Hn W G Ellison Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Darning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Macdona, John Cumming Valencia, Viscount
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Walker, Col. William Hall
Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J.(Manc'r Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfries-sh Warr, Augustus Frederick
Fielden, Edward Brockle hurst Middlemore, John Throgmort'n Webb, Colonel William George
Finch, George H. Mildmay, Francis Bingham Welby, Lt. -Col. A C E (Taunton
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Milvidn, Thomas Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Fisher, William Hayes Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Fitz Gerald, Sir Robert Perirose- More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Flannery, Sir Fortescue Morgan, David J (Walthamst' w Willox, Sir John Archibald
Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Morrell, George Herbert Wills, Sir Frederick
Flower, Ernest Morrison, James Archibald Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Foster, Sir Michael(Lond. Univ. Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Foster, Philip S.(Warwick, S. W. Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R.(Bath
Gardner, Ernest Myers, William Henry Wylie, Alexander
Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Newdigate, Francis Alexander Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby -(Salop Nicol, Donald Ninian
Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Parkes, Ebenezer TELLERS FOE THE AYES—
Goulding, Edward Alfred Paulton, James Mellor Sir William Walrond and
Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Peel, Hn Wm. Robert Wellesley Mr. Anstruther.
Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) Penn, John
Grenfell, William Henry Pierpoint, Robert
NOES.
Abraham, William(Cork, N. E.) Cawley, Frederick Farrell, James Patrick
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Clancy, John Joseph Fenwick, Charles
Allen, Charles P. (Glouc. Stroud Cogan, Denis J. Ffiench, Peter
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Crean, Eugene Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund
Bell, Richard Cremer, William Randal Flavin, Michael Joseph
Black, Alexander William Dalziel, James Henry Flynn, James Christopher
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)
Brigg, John Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan Fuller, J. M. F.
Broadhurst, Henry Delany, William Gilhooly, James
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) Devlin, Joseph Grant, Corrie
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Griffith, Ellis J.
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Dillon, John Hammond, John
Buxton, Sydney Charles Doogan, P. C. Harmsworth, R. Leicester
Cald well, James Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Harwood, George
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Duncan, J. Hastings Hayden, John Patrick
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Edwards, Frank Helme, Norval Watson
Causton, Richard Knight Farquharson, Dr. Robert Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.
Holland, Sir William Henry Murphy, John Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)
Horniman, Frederick John Newnes, Sir George Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.) Shipman, Dr. John G.
Jameson, Major J. Eustace Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Jones, William (Carnarvoush. O'Connor, James (Wieklow, W. Strachey, Sir Edward
Jordan, Jeremiah O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) Sullivan, Donal
Joyce, Michael O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Taylor, Theodore Cooke
Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.) O'Malley, William Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.
Layland-Barratt, Francis O'Mara, James Thomas, J A(Glamorgan, Gower
Leamy, Edmund O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Toulmin, George
Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington Partington, Oswald Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Levy, Maurice Pearson, Sir Weetman D. Tully, Jasper
Lewis, John Herbert Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Lloyd-George, David Power, Patrick Joseph Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Lough, Thomas Price, Robert John White, George (Norfolk)
MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. Rea, Russell White, Luke (York, E. R.)
MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Reddy, M. Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
MacVeagh, Jeremiah Redmond, John E.(Waterford) Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) Redmond, William (Clare) Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk. Mid.
M'Kean, John Rickett, J. Compton Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.
Mansfield, Horace Rendall Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) Woodhouse, Sir J. T (Hudd'rsfi'd
Mooney, John J. Roberts, John H. (Denhighs.)
Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Roche, John TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Moss, Samuel Runciman, Walter Captain Donelan and Mr.
Murnaghan, George Schwann, Charles E. Patrick O'Brien.

(10.5.) Question put accordingly, "That the House do now adjourn."

The House divided:—Ayes, 64; Noes, 210. (Division No. 324.)

AYES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) Harwood, George O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.
Allen, Charles P. (Glouc., Stroud Hayden, John Patrick O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)
Brigg, John Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
Broadhurst, Henry Horniman, Frederick John O'Malley, William
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh Jameson, Major J. Eustace O'Mara, James
Caldwell, James Jordan, Jeremiah O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Joyce, Michael Power, Patrick Joseph
Cawley, Frederick Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W. Reddy, M.
Clancy, John Joseph Leamy, Edmund Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Cogan, Denis J. Levy, Maurice Redmond, William (Clare)
Crean, Eugene Lewis, John Herbert Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Cremer, William Randal Lough, Thomas Roche, John
Delany, William MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. Shipman, Dr. John G.
Devlin, Joseph MacVeagh, Jeremiah Sullivan, Donal.
Dillon, John M'Kean, John Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Donelan, Captain A. Mansfield, Horace Rendall Tully, Jasper
Doogan, P. C. Mooney, John J. White, George (Norfolk)
Farrell, James Patrick Murnaghan, George Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Ffrench, Peter Murphy, John
Flavin, Michael Joseph Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)
Flynn, James Christopher Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Gilhooly, James O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Mr. MacNeill and Mr.
Hammond, John O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) Black.
NOES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Bartley, George C. T. Chapman, Edward
Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Charrington, Spencer
Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Cohen, Benjamin Louis
Anson, Sir William Reynell Bignold, Arthur Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse
Arnold-Forster. Hugh O. Bigwood, James Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Blundell, Colonel Henry Colston, Chas. Edw. H Athole
Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy Bolton, Thomas Dolling Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)
Bailey, James (Walworth) Boscawen, Arthur Griffith Cranborne, Lord
Bain, Colonel James Robert Brodrick. Rt. Hon. St. John Cripps, Charles Alfred
Balcarres, Lord Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Butcher, John George Crossley, Sir Savile
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Carlile, William Walter Cubitt, Hon. Henry
Balfour, Rt Hn. Gerald W.(Leeds Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire Dalrymple, Sir Charles
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Davenport, W. Bromley-
Banbury, Frederick George Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wore'r Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.) Kenyon-Slaney, Col.W. (Salop) Renshaw, Charles Bine
Dickson, Charles Scott King, Sir Henry Seymour Renwick, George
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Law, Andrew Bouar (Glasgow) Richards, Henry Charles
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Lawrence, Sir Joseph(Monm'th Rigg, Richard
Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Layland-Barratt, Francis Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Lee, Arthur H(Hants., Fareham Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Duke, Henry Edward Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Runciman, Walter
Duncan, J. Hastings Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Darning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Farquharson, Dr. Robert Llewellyn, Evan Henry Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Lock wood, Lt.-Col. A. R. Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)
Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S) Soares, Ernest J.
Finch, George H. Lonsdale, John Brownlee Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk)
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset
Fisher, William Hayes Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)
FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- Macartney, Rt Hn. W. G. Ellison Stone, Sir Benjamin
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund Macdona, John Cumming Strachey, Sir Edward
Flannery, Sir Forteseue Maconochie, A. W. Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Flower, Ernest Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh. Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G (Oxf'd Univ.
Foster, Sir Michael (Lond. Univ. Middlemore, Jno. Throgmorton Tollemache, Henry James
Foster, PhilipS (Warwick, S. W. Mildmay, Francis Bingham Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Fuller, J. M. F. Milvain, Thomas Toulmin, George
Gardner, Ernest Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Godson, Sir Augnstus Frederick More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) Tritton, Charles Ernest
Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop Morgan, David J (Walth'mstow Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Morrell, George Herbert Valentia, Viscount
Goschen, Hon. George Joachim Morrison, James Archibald Walker, Col. William Hall
Goulding, Edward Alfred Morton, Arthur H. A(Deptford) Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Warr, Augustus Frederick
Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) Myers, William Henry Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Grenfell, William Henry Newdigate, Francis Alexander Webb, Colonel William George
Hall, Edward Marshall Newnes, Sir George Welby, Lt.-Col A. C.E (Taunton
Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G(Midd'x Nicol, Donald Ninian Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd
Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert W m. Parkes, Ebenezer White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Hare, Thomas Leigh Partington, Oswald Whiteley, H. (Ashtonund. Lyne
Harris, Frederick Leverton Paulton, James Meilor Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Haslett, Sir James Horner Pearson, Sir Weetman D. Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Helme, Norval Watson Penn, John Willox, Sir John Archibald
Henderson, Sir Alexander Pierpoint, Robert Wills, Sir Frederick
Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Platt-Higgins, Frederick Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)
Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.
Holland, Sir Wm. Henry Pretyman, Ernest George Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside Price, Robert John Wilson. John (Glasgow)
Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)
Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) Purvis, Robert Wylie, Alexander
Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil P'ym, C. Guy Wyndham, Rt. Hn. George
Hudson, George Bickersteth Randles, John S.
Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.) Rankin, Sir James
Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Rasch, Major Frederic Carne TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred. Ratcliff, R. F. Sir William Walrond and
Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Rea, Russell Mr. Anstruther.
Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh) Reid, James (Greenock)