HC Deb 28 July 1902 vol 111 cc1413-41

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

MR. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith)

in the Chair.

Clause 7:—

Amendment proposed— In page 2, line 39, after the word 'authority,' to insert the words— 'shall, where the local education authority are the council of a county, have a body of managers consisting of a number of managers not exceeding four appointed by that council, together with a number not exceeding two appointed by the minor local authority. Where the local education authority are the council of a borough or urban district they may if they think fit appoint for any school provided by them such numbers of managers as they may determine. (2) All public elementary schools not provided by the local education authority shall have a body of managers consisting of a number of trust managers not exceeding four appointed as provided by this Act, together with a number of managers not exceeding two appointed:—(a) Where the local education authority are the council of a county, one by that council and one by the minor local authority; and (b) where the local education authority are the council of a borough or urban district, both by that authority. (3) One of the managers appointed by the minor local authority, or the manager so appointed, as the case may be, shall be the parent of a child who is or has been during the last twelve months a scholar in the school. (4) The 'minor local authority means the council of any borough or urban district, or the parish council or (where there is no parish council) the parish meeting of any parish, which appears to the County Council to be served by the school. Where the school appears to the County Council to serve the area of more than one minor local authority the County Council shall make such provision as they think proper for joint appointment by the authorities concerned." — (Mr. A. J. Balfour.)

Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

(5.40.) SIR EDWARD STRACHEY (Somersetshire, S.)

said he wished to move a drafting Amendment to the First Lord's proposed Amendment— In line 2, leave out 'body,' and insert 'Committee.' Under this Clause, as now proposed by the First Lord, it would be necessary for the County Council to appoint a "body of managers." Was it the intention of the First Lord that that body should be independent of the local education authority and have special rights of its own? In the rural districts they never heard of a "body of managers," but merely of "managers," and it would be much more simple to insert "Committee" instead of the "body."

Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment— In line 2, to leave out the word 'body' and insert the word 'committee.' "—(Sir Edward Strachey.)

Question proposed "That the word 'body' stand part of the proposed Amendment."

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

said that he-thought the words of the Amendment as proposed by him, were more appropriate for what the hon. Gentleman wanted, than the words the hon. Gentleman had submitted. A "Committee" would be part of the superior education authority. Now, the Government did not want that the managers should necessarily be members of the local education authority. On the contrary, there were a great many cases where they should not be; and the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman would exclude women from being appointed managers.

DR. MACNAMARA (Camberwell, N.)

said he was sorry that the First Lord had not seen his way to substitute "Committee" for "body." This was not a mere question of drafting; it went to the real substance of the Bill. What they wanted was that the managers should be subordinate to the education authority. Clause 8 said that the managers must obey all directions of the local education authority, and what they wanted to secure was, that the powers of the local education authority should be delegated to the Committee of managers. He wanted to know what was going to be delegated to the managers. It was true that the word "body" was used in the Act of 1870, but it was surrounded by all sorts of prescriptions not found in this Bill—the most important of which was that the rules contained in the third Schedule of the Act should be observed, that the managers must give specific notice to the local education authority of the business to be transacted, and that they should in all respects carry out the directions given to them by the education authority. But there was nothing in this Bill giving the same directions—more especially in regard to the denominational schools. He was anxious that the managers of all public elementary schools should act in subordination to the body which elected them. In London there were 450 boards of managers, but they had no initiative, only certain functions to perform prescribed by the London School Board, which was entirely responsible to the public. He hoped that some words would be added to the Clause, by which it would be provided that the managers should be subordinate to the local education authority.

MR. ALFRED HUTTON (Yorkshire, W. R., Morley)

said that under Clause 12, the word "Committee" presupposed that the duties of the Committee would be delegated to them by the Local Education authority, and that they would naturally be under obligation to report to their immediate supreme authority all the actions which they had taken.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

said he felt sure that there was no reason for continuing the discussion. He entirely agreed with the hon. Gentlemen opposite that the managers of the public authority's schools should be, so to speak, the absolute creatures of the authority. Probably additional words would be required to make the point clear, but this clause was not the place in which to do it. The word "Committee" would not do it. It must be done precisely and in terms, and probably the best plan would be to do it in the Schedule.

MR. HUMPHREYS-OWEN (Montgomeryshire)

said he simply rose to safeguard his position with regard to some subsequent Amendments that he had on the Paper. His view was that it was a mistake to regard the managers as the mere creatures of the local authority, and that they ought to have some amount of autonomy. So long as it was understood that when the Schedule came up for discussion views of that kind could be put before the Committee, he would offer no opposition to debating the matter at a later stage; but if, on the other hand, a division were taken now, he would not be able to support the Amendment.

MR. DILLON (Mayo, E.)

said the matter raised was one of supreme and vital importance to the voluntary schools. Under the present law the managers were appointed under Clause 15 of the Act of 1870, and had no power except that delegated to them by the School Boards, but, under the present law, the School Boards had no power whatever over the voluntary schools. All that was now going to be altered, and in the future the managers of the voluntary as well as the public schools were to be under the absolute control of the public authority. What he was afraid of was that, as the managers of those schools were now for the first time to be brought under the control of the local education authority, their relations with that body would be to a large extent governed by what was done in regard to the provided schools, for there was no other precedent. He desired to enter his protest against this arrangement, which he did not consider satisfactory.

MR. BRYCE (Aberdeen, S.)

said that on Clause 6 the First Lord of the Treasury drew no distinction between provided and non-provided schools in this matter, and said that in both cases the control of the local authority would be absolute.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

said that with regard to secondary education he did not think the point was very important, and he did not think the object of the Amendment could be carried out by the words suggested, but the question subsequently raised was important and would have to be dealt with.

MR. BRYCE

agreed that the question raised by the Amendment ought to be dealt with, but he did not think that the Schedule, as suggested by the First Lord, was the best place in which to do it. When on Clause 6, the right hon. Gentleman treated it as a matter to be dealt with in a clause; now he thought it ought to be dealt with in the Schedule. He (Mr. Bryce) thought a matter of such importance ought to be brought forward long before the Schedule was reached, and if the right hon. Gentleman did not bring up an Amendment himself before that stage, it might be the duty of the Opposition to do so.

MR. WHITLEY (Halifax)

rose because he had a similar Amendment upon the Paper. He favoured the word "Committee" in the place of "Board" because in his opinion "Board" was too strong a word to use under the circumstances. They knew what a Board of Guardians was, but there were other Boards of which they were not so fond, for instance, the Board of Trade and the Board of Education. The word "body" was not so strong as "Board," but at the same time it was too vague to be desirable. The word "Committee" was a good word, which suggested that this body of managers had real work to do. A Board of Managers might, in many cases, be in. a purely honorary position. The kind of management with which they had to deal at the present time was slipshod, irregular and unsatisfactory.

*THE CHAIRMAN

Order, order! The hon. Gentlemen's remarks have nothing to do with the Amendment before the House.

MR. WHITLEY

said his point was that the word "Committee," which was the Amendment before the Committee at the present moment, conveyed to most minds first, a regular meeting time, second, a secretary to the Committee, and third, a proper record being kept by the Committee. Those were three points they ought to consider when making a new constitution for the managers.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

said the question was—Were these delegated authorities to be a Committee in the same sense as any other Committee of the local authority? Were they bound to report to the local authority?

(6.0.) THE CHAIRMAN

said that point could not arise on the present question.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

submitted with due deference that it was revelant, because if the managers were to be a Committee they would be bound to report.

*THE CHAIRMAN

said that if the hon. Member was going to argue the matter on that ground it would of course cut out all subsequent Amendments which raised that particular question.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

said that if the Committee preferred to take the point later he did not object. He under-stood that the right hon. Gentleman had promised to introduce words to define what the position would be. He gathered that his view was that this body was of a purely subordinate character. There was nothing on the face of the Bill which made it clear what the functions of the managers were. He asked the right hon. Gentleman to say whether he would introduce words making these functions clear.

*SIR CHARLES DILKE

drew attention to the different views which had been taken of the effect of the Amendment, and said he was inclined to think that the word Committee would carry with it greater powers than the word body.

MR. SYDNEY BUXTON

thought that it was clear that some words ought to be introduced into the Bill to show how far the managers were subordinate to the educational authority, but his right hon. friend would be able to gather from the debate that it would not be satisfactory to the passage of the Bill that this matter should not be dealt with until they come to the Schedule. He thought some words should be introduced into this clause, or into some other clause, defining the actual relationship of these managers to the educational authority. If this matter was not dealt with until the Schedule was reached, it would be impossible to deal with Clause 8 until after that.

MR. McKENNA (Monmouthshire, W.)

asked if the right hon. Gentleman had considered the meaning of his words when he said that he was going to make these managers the mere creatures of the educational Committee, which was itself the mere creature of the local education authority. He submitted that that would have a most extraordinary result.

MR. CHANNING

said he understood the First Lord of the Treasury to say that some part of Section 15 of the Act of 1870 would, in some form or other, be ultimately made applicable to these managers. He would like to ask, in connection with that, whether it was contemplated that the provisions affecting the proceedings of managers in the third Schedule of the Act of 1870 would also be introduced into the Bill. It was important that the proceedings of these managers should be regulated in some definite and businesslike way, and that they should be made responsible.

SIR EDWARD STRACHEY

begged leave to withdraw his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Main Question again proposed.

MR. ALFRED HUTTON

said Clause 7, as it was originally drawn, incorporated Section 15 of the Act of 1870, which was perfectly well understood by all those who had been members of School Boards. The new form of the Clause contained no reference to that Section in which the question of tenure of office was dealt with. The terms of these appointments seemed to him, as the Clause stood, very uncertain. These people were to be appointed and dismissed at the pleasure of the authority. He, therefore, hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would introduce the word "annually." He was not particular that the period of appointment should be a year. What he wanted to secure was that the managers should be appointed at intervals, so that a member who did not discharge his duties properly might be relieved of them without difficulty. A Committee which was not subject to re-election was apt to lose its sense of responsibility.

Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment— In line 2, after the first word 'managers,' to insert the words 'annually appointed and.'" —(Mr. Alfred Hutton.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

hoped that details on this matter would not be inserted in the Clause. The question was whether the subject should be dealt with by separate clause or schedule, or both. It might be necessary to have a clause in addition to the Schedule, but this was not the proper clause for dealing with the matter. As to the question of substance, he deprecated annual elections in these cases. He thought Section 15 of the Act of 1870 might be taken as a guide. He trusted the Amendment would not be pressed. He would take care that Amendments were placed on the Paper embodying the views of the Government.

MR. BRYGE

said that if the right hon. Gentleman would promise to bring up a clause, or suggest another clause on which an Amendment could better be made, the Committee might think it well to postpone the subject. But he considered the question of term to be one of great substance, and he did not think it was foreign to the present Clause.

DR. MACNAMARA

testified to the value of an annual revision of managers. These words were valuable, but they were only one of the many conditions he hoped to see put into this Bill. There ought to be, if not annual election, annual revision, in order that those members who did not perform their functions might be called to account. It was important, before proceeding with the question of management, that the Government should consider how far it would be desirable to set forth generally the functions of managers set forth in Section 15.

MR. HUMPHREYS-OWEN

hoped the right hon. Gentleman, in arriving at a decision in the matter, would not be guided entirely by School Board experience. The managers ought to have in the rural districts a reasonable amount of autonomy of the local body.

MR. HERBERT LEWIS (Flint Boroughs)

said it was amazing that the important point dealt with in the Amendment should have escaped the attention of the Government. It showed the imperfect nature of the Bill, and he hoped advantage would be taken of the Recess to put this and many other matters right. The sense of responsibility

was undoubtedly lacking where managers were appointed for three or five years, and nobody ever troubled to inquire whether they were regular or not in their attendance. Regular attendance was most important, as those who were not regular lost touch with the work.

*MR. HELME (Lancashire, Lancaster)

urged that the twelve months term of office should be adopted, so that the appointments should be revised year by year, in harmony with the invariable practice of all County Council and Municipal Authorities, and so bring the local representation on the management of the schools into constant touch with public opinion.

*MR. CORRIE GRANT

said that, as the Amendment of the First Lord covered the two Amendments he had on the Paper, he should not move them.

MR. ALFRED HUTTON

thought it would be a very serious matter if this was delayed until the Schedule was taken.

*SIR CHARLES DILKE

said that Clause 15, which was in the mind of the First Lord of the Treasury, was unsatisfactory as a settlement of the question, as its words were "from time to time." He, therefore, hoped his hon. friend would give those who supported the Amendment the opportunity of recording their votes in favour of its proposal.

SIR JOHN BRUNNER

thought that a fixed date for the appointment of managers would be more satisfactory than a from time to time arrangement.

(6.23.) Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 104; Noes, 263. (Division List No. 320.)

AYES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)
Aben, Charles P.(Gloue., Stroud Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan
Asher, Alexander Burns, John Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.
Ashton, Thomas Gair Buxton, Sydney Charles Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Atherley-Jones, L. Caldwell, James Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Duncan, J. Hastings
Bell, Richard Causton, Richard Knight Dunn, Sir William
Black, Alexander William Cawley, Frederick Edwards, Frank
Brigg, John Channing, Francis Allston Emmott, Alfred
Broadhurst, Henry Craif, Robert Hunter Farquharson, Dr. Robert
Brown, George M.(Edinburgh) Dalziel, James Henry Fenwick, Charles
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund Mansfield, Horace Rendall Strachey, Sir Edward
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe Taylor, Theodore Cooke
Fuller, J. M. F. Mather, Sir William Tennant, Harold John
Goddard, Daniel Ford Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.
Grant, Corrie Moss, Samuel Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Griffith, Ellis J. Partington, Oswald Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Paulton, James Mellor Toulmin, George
Harwood, George Pearson, Sir Weetman D. Wallace, Robert
Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.
Hayter Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. Pickard, Benjamin Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Helme, Norval Watson Price, Robert John Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Horniman, Frederick John Rickett, J. Compton White, George (Norfolk)
Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Rigg, Richard White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Jacoby, James Alfred Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) Whiteley, George (York. W. R.
Jones, William (Carn'rvonshire Roberts, John H. (Denbighs) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Langley, Batty Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Layland-Barratt, Francis Robson, William Snowdon Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington Runciman, Walter Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.)
Levy, Maurice Schwann, Charles E. Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Hudderf'd
Lewis, John Herbert Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) Yoxall, James Henry
Lloyd-George, David Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Lough, Thomas Shipman, Dr. John G. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) Mr. Alfred Hutton and
M'Kenna, Reginald Soares, Ernest. J. Mr. Trevelyan.
NOES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) Coddington, Sir William Flower, Ernest
Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. Cogan, Denis, J. Flynn, James Christopher
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Coghill, Douglas Harry Forster, Henry William
Anson, Sir William Reynell Cohen, Benjamin Louis Foster, Sir Michael (Lond. Univ.
Arkwright, John Stanhope Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Foster, PhilipS. (Warwick, S. W
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready Gardner, Ernest
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Gilhooly, James
Bagot, Capt. JoscelineFitzRoy Compton, Lord Alwyne Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick.
Bailey, James (Walworth) Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Lincs.
Bain, Colonel James Robert Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon
Balcarres, Lord Cox Irwin Edward Bainbridge Goschen, Hon. George Joachim
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Cranborne, Lord Gray, Ernest (West Ham)
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Crean, Eugene Greene, Sir E. W (B'rySEdm'nds
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds Cripps, Charles Alfred Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)
Banbury, Frederick George Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Grenfell, William Henry
Bartley, George C. T. Crossley, Sir Savile Greville, Hon. Ronald
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Cubitt, Hon. Henry Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill
Beach, Rt Hn. Sir Michael Hicks Dalrymple, Sir Charles Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Devonport, William Bromley- Hamilton, RtHnL'rdG (Midd'x
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Delany, William Hamilton, Marq. Of (L'nd,'nderry.
Bignold, Arthur Devlin, Joseph Hammond, John
Bigwood, James Dickson, Charles Scott Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.
Blundell, Colonel Henry Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Hare, Thomas Leigh
Boland, John Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Harris, Frederick Leverton
Bond, Edward Dillon, John Haslett, Sir James Horner
Boseawen, Arthur Griffith- Donelan, Captain A. Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.
Bousfield, William Robert Doogan, P. C. Hay, Hon. Claude George
Bowles, T. Gibson (Lynn Regis Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. Hayden, John Patrick
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Duffy, William J. Heaton, John Henniker
Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh. Duke, Henry Edward Henderson, Sir Alexander
Bull, William James Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.
Butcher, John George Dyke. Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside
Campbell, Rt. Hn J. A. (Glasgow Faber, George Denison (York) Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Farrell, James Patrick Hoult, Joseph
Carew, James Laurence Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Howard, John (Kent, Fav'rsh'm
Carlile, William Walter Ffrench, Peter Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh. Finch, George H. Hudson, George Bickersteth
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.)
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse
Chamberlain, Austen (Worc'r Fisher, William Hayes Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.
Chapman, Edward Fison, Frederick William Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)
Churchill, Winston Spencer Flannery, Sir Fortescue Jordan, Jeremiah
Clancy, John Joseph Flavin, Michael Joseph Joyce, Michael
Clive, Captain Percy A. Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop,
Kimber, Henry Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
King, Sir Henry Seymour Myers, William Henry Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Knowles. Lees Newdigate, Francis Alexander Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)
Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.) Seely, Maj. J. E. B.(I. of Wight)
Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Simeon, Sir Barrington
Lawson, John Grant O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)
Leamy, Edmund O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Lee, Arthur H (Hants, Fareham O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset
Legge, Col. Hon. Henage O' Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)
Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Llewellyn, Evan Henry O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Sullivan, Donal
Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G (Oxf'd Univ.
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine O'Malley, William Thornton, Percy M.
Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham) O'Mara, James Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S) O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Tritton, Charles Ernest
Lonsdale, John Brownlee Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Lowe, Francis William Parkes, Ebenezer Tully, Jasper
Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) Peel, HnWm. RobertWellesley Valentia, Viscount
Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth Penn, John Vincent, Col. Sir C E H (Sheffield
Macartney, Rt. Hn W. G. Ellison Pierpoint, Robert Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Macdona, John Cumming Plate-Higgins, Frederick Warde, Colonel C. E.
MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Warr, Augustus Frederick
MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Power, Patrick Joseph Webb, Colonel William George
MacVeagh, Jeremiah Pretyman, Ernest George Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E (Taunton
M'Kean, John Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Manners, Lord Cecil Purvis, Robert Whiteley, H. (Ashtonund. Lyne
Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. Pym, C. Guy Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Maxwell, W. J. H (Dumfries-sh. Rankin, Sir James Willough by de Eresby, Lord
Melville, Beresford Valentine Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Willox, Sir John Archibald
Middlemore, Jno. Throgmorton Rattigan, Sir William Henry Wills, Sir Frederick
Mildmay, Francis Bingham Reddy, M.. Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Milvain, Thomas Redmond, John E. (Waterford Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Molesworth, Sir Lewis Redmond, William (Clare) Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)
Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Reid, James (Greenock) Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Mooney, John J. Richards, Henry Charles Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire Ridley, S. Forde (BethnalGreen) Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Morgan, David J.(Walth'mstow Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson Wylie, Alexander
Morrell, George Herbert Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Morrison, James Archibald Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford Roche, John
Murnaghan, George Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Murphy, John Round, Rt. Hon. James Sir William Walrond and
Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Gr'h'm (Bute Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander Mr. Anstruther.
(6.37.) COLONEL WILLIAMS (Dorsetshire, W.)

, on behalf of the right hon. Baronet the Member for the Honiton Division of Devon, moved the insertion of words to make it clear that women could be elected to the managing bodies. It was so manifestly right that women should have their fair share in all educational arrangements that he thought there would be no difficulty in the acceptance of the Amendment.

Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment— In line 2, after the first word 'managers,' to insert the words 'of both sexes.' "—(Colonel Williams.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

said what he understood to be the contention of his hon. friend was perfectly sound. He agreed that there ought to be a possibility of electing women upon these bodies. He would go further and say that, in a large number of cases, they should be elected; but he objected to the compulsory form of the Amendment, which might limit the choice of the Councils. As a matter of drafting he thought it was far safer to adhere to the well-known interpretation of the term "managers." There could be no doubt that under the Bill as it stood women were eligible.

MR. BRYCE

said the question was one of the greatest possible importance. Personally, he was inclined to agree with the view of the right hon. Gentleman that women might be eligible under the Clause, but he would like to have an assurance on legal authority that there should be no doubt on that point. But even if that were so, the question yet remained whether it should not be made compulsory to appoint women. The Amendment proposed to make them necessary members of the Boards of Managers. He thought they certainly ought to be members of the Committees, but whether they should be necessary members of the Boards of Managers seemed greatly to depend on the size of the Boards. If a Board consisted of six members there might be a difficulty, but if there were to be ten or twelve managers he thought it ought to be made compulsory to appoint women. Even in the case of the smaller bodies there was much to be said in favour of having at any rate one woman; and if that point was to be argued, the present was the Clause upon which it should be done.

MR. ERNEST GRAY (West Ham, N.)

pointed out that in a great many schools there were three departments— girls, infants, and boys—and in his judgment it was most desirable that women should find seats on the Boards of Managers of such schools. Assuming that they were eligible, it had to be remembered that the body which appointed the managers would consist almost entirely of men, and in practice it had been found that such bodies seldom recognised the claims of women. In regard to the Committee, he thought it should be made compulsory to appoint women as members of that body, and when the Clause dealing with that matter was reached, he should press that point most strongly. He was not prepared to say that it should be compulsory with regard to the Board of Managers of a small school, but, at any rate, it ought to be made clear that women were eligible. For many years, he said, others had held their tongues as to the position of women on School Boards, but he was told that if the point were raised in the Law Courts it was very doubtful whether it would be found that women had a right to serve. But now that a new authority was being set up, he was not prepared to leave the question in that dubious condition. He wanted the House to give the country a lead in matters of this description, and, instead of merely declaring that such and such things were possible, to say that in its judgment they were desirable. They were bound to let children into the schools at five years of age, and more than half of the children attending the schools were of very tender age. In these circumstances there was work to be done in the schools which no one but a woman could do. There was work to be done with the female teachers which no man could understand. He wished it to be distinctly laid clown that, in the opinion, of the Committee, it was desirable that women should be elected as managers.

DR. SHIPMAN (Northampton)

said he had an Amendment on the Paper with reference to this question which, he thought, would meet the case more completely than that just moved by the hon. Member. He understood the Prime Minister to say that, while he objected to making the appointment of ladies as managers compulsory, there would be no objection under the Clause as it stood to ladies being admitted. He begged to contradict that. If a test case were brought, he was certain it would be shown that women had no right to sit on a Board of management; and this was a good opportunity to make the point clear. Women in these matters suffered both from the disabilities of sex and of coverture. In a legal sense the married woman was not a personality; she was merged in the personality of her husband, and; therefore he was anxious that neither sex nor coverture should be a disability for a seat on a Board of school management. He asked the hon. Member for West Dorsetshire whether he would withdraw his Amendment in order that he might move his own.

COLONEL WILLIAMS

declined to withdraw his Amendment.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir ROBERT FINLAY,) Inverness Burghs

said it was impossible to accept the Amendment in its present form unless the Committee were of opinion that women in all cases should be upon these Boards of Managers. That might lead to difficulty; in several cases in getting the best body of management available for a particular district. There might be many districts where it might not be found possible to get as good a manager of the female sex as might be procurable of the male sex. No one could doubt it; and it ought to be left to those who appointed the Committee to select those who were best fitted for managing the schools. He agreed that where there was a woman qualified to act it was highly desirable that she should be appointed, because she was able to render services which no man, however highly qualified, could render. For this reason the Amendment ought not to be inserted. But as to whether women were eligible to serve as the Bill now stood, he maintained there was no doubt that they were. By the Interpretation Act it was provided that, unless the contrary appeared, words importing the masculine gender should include the feminine. Nor did he agree with the suggestion that there might be some disqualification at common law on the part of women. While women would be eligible as the Bill stood, he thought it would be highly undesirable that the provision should be made compulsory on a body of this kind.

*SIR CHARLES DILKE

said this matter had been argued in the House over and over again, but the opinions held by the hon. and learned Gentleman holding the office of Attorney General had been overruled in the court of law. It would not be in order at present to cite cases decided in the courts in regard to the eligibility of women, but he could show that the courts had upheld views which were diametrically opposed to the intention of the House of Commons. He could not vote for words which would make it compulsory to have women as managers, but he agreed that some words ought to be introduced which would make it clear that women might be appointed as managers. He preferred the Amendment of the hon. Member for Northampton to that now before the Committee.

COLONEL WILLIAMS

said that after what had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman, he begged to withdraw the Amendment. [Several HON. MEMBERS: No, no !]

MR. BOUSFIELD (Hackney, N.)

hoped the Government would look at this matter more sympathetically and carefully before they got to another stage of the Bill. He thought the proper place to make the eligibility of women as managers clear, would be the Schedule. A school containing girls and infants should have a woman on the Board of Managers; without her, the authority would be essentially incomplete. Words should be inserted to indicate that where-ever possible a woman should form at least one of the Board of Managers. He should like to hear from the Prime Minister that this would receive a little more consideration.

(6.55.) MR. A. J. BALFOUR

said the Government had said as clearly as language could express it that they were absolutely in favour of giving the freest access on the part of women to every authority found in the Bill. That was their policy; and the question was what was the best legal method of carrying out the intentions of the Government. He was sure, however, that the best way was not, when they came to the word "Committee," "body," or "authority" for the Committee to say then and there that on each of these various assemblages a woman should be eligible. Let the Committee introduce words in the definition clause saying that for every purpose of the Bill women and men should be on an equality in these matters. That was not a legal phrase, but the proposal could be embodied in legal phraseology. There arose the further point, how far the introduction of words like these in the definition clause threw doubt upon other measures that had been passed. He was unable to gauge their effect, but if it be true that what the law officers had successively declared in the House upon this subject had as certainly been upset by the Law Courts as soon as the question came before them, then let the Committee guard against such a calamity by putting words in the definition clause of the Bill. If it be true that the position of women under other measures would be imperilled by the introduction of these words in the Clause, then the Committee ought to be careful as to what it was doing. But, as far as the Bill was concerned, he was ready to introduce words in the definition clause which would make it the avowed and declared intention of the Government absolutely beyond question as far as this measure itself was concerned.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

said that the point raised by the Amendment was not the inevitability of women being managers, but the possibility that the County Council should be enabled to appoint women on the Board of Managers. He thought the point would be much better taken on the next Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for the Flint Boroughs.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. HERBERT LEWIS

moved as an Amendment— In line 2, after the word 'managers' to insert the words 'of whom at least one shall be a woman.' He contended that on the Board of Managers of six members, which controlled the education of boys and girls practically in equal numbers, there should be at least one representative of the girls. He entirely agreed with the hon. Member as to the difficulty of obtaining the election of ladies on these Boards, because the interests of the female sex were apt to be overlooked. But they all knew what magnificent work had been done in the past by lady members on the School Boards. This was shown in the case of the late Miss Bayliss, who, although her politics and her religion were entirely different from the majority of the people, was returned at the head of the poll for the London School Board. That was a great tribute to the work of women on School Boards. And the illustration could be repeated all over the country. The Committee ought to recollect that there were certain branches of education about which men obviously knew nothing, such as needlework, embroidery, and cookery. Then there were the other branches of domestic hygiene, in which girls were taught to have correct ideas of house management, and regarding which it was absolutely necessary that there should be at least one woman on the Board of Management, who might go to the schools and to whom the girls might speak quite freely and unreservedly. And then as regarded the sanitation of the schools, the inspector only paid a visit once or twice a year, but what they wanted was that they should have someone who should go over the school not less than once a week, to look after the ventilation and the proper accommodation provided for the children. He himself had seen, over and over again, little children actually asleep on their benches because there was no proper ventilation of the school room. He appealed to the Committee to make it imperative that at least one woman should be on the Board of Management.

Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment— In line 2, after the word 'managers,' to insert the words 'of whom at least one shall be a woman.' "—(Mr. Herbert Lewis.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

said he did not wish to avoid any discussion on this particular point. He thought that there was a general feeling that much was to be said in favour of giving the strongest lead in the direction of framing a scheme for the education authority, by which women would be included on a Board of Management; but it was not desirable to make the appointment of women absolutely obligatory. To limit the choice in any way in a small country parish would be a mistake. If the Amendment were pressed, it would have to be altered; for if it were made obligatory that one of the body should be a woman, it must also be obligatory that one of the body should be a man.

MR. McKENNA

said that the First Lord's objection to the Amendment was that it would limit the choice of the managers of the schools. But he submitted that the difficulty would be not to find one woman in a parish for election on the school management, but to get six efficient men. He had not a shadow of doubt that, in practice, they would be able to secure the services of one woman who would be able to look after what was essentially woman's work.

MR. BOUSFIELD

said that he thought this Amendment was undoubtedly in the wrong place. Unquestionably they would be very well advised in giving a lead to the local education authority to appoint a woman on the Board of Management. It seemed to him that every argument as to the indirect control of school by the education authority applied with more force to the domestic control of the school. It was extremely desirable that a woman should be on the Board of Management, which had to do with schools where there were girls and young children.

MR. EMMOTT (Oldham)

said that he should vote for this Instruction rather than none. If the question were left open, women would often be excluded where they ought to be appointed.

*MR. C. P. SCOTT (Lancashire, Leigh)

said that the Vice President had told the Committee that he was anxious to give the strongest possible lead to the local authority to appoint a woman on the School Management Committee, where-ever a suitable woman was available. He suggested the addition to the Amendment of the words "unless the Board of Education shall, in any particular case, otherwise determine." That would enable a local authority to represent to the Board of Education that a suitable woman was not available. It was most desirable that there should be women on these bodies, and he did not see how a lead was to be given to the local authorities unless some words were inserted. The importance of having a woman on bodies of this kind was admitted. Their presence was the more necessary because these bodies would have more control than formerly, and the central authority would be farther away. Owing to the parents not having power to elect, it was the more necessary that the Committee should insert some words in the Bill, and therefore he would move to add the words—

*THE CHAIRMAN

Order, order! It is a most unusual thing to move an Amendment to an Amendment to the Amendment.

MR. COURTENAY WARNER (Staffordshire, Lichfield)

thought the difficulty could be easily got rid of if the Amendment was accepted, and these modifying Amendments—for they were nothing else —were moved afterwards. His view was that women made ideal inspectors of schools: it was the one place where women were wanted. He was not sure that it would be to the advantage of education to put women on the education authority, but in this particular case he thought directions should be given to the education authority to put women on these bodies by words being inserted in the Bill.

MR. WILLIAM JONES (Carnarvonshire, Arfon)

asked, now that a definite position had been given to women as teachers, and by the Board of Education as inspectors, why the principle should not be carried to its logical conclusion, and women given a definite position as managers. In these schools they had classes of cookery and needlework, for which women were required as teachers, and women were also required to look after the women teachers and the social comforts of the children.

SIR BRAMPTON GURDON (Norfolk, N.)

said that if the local authority were to elect the whole of the managers he would agree with the Front Bench that this matter should be left entirely alone; it ought to be left to their discretion whether they should appoint a woman or not. But if two-thirds of the councillors were to be appointed by outside authority, then this Committee ought to interfere and tell the authority in this Act what they ought to do. He would certainly support the Amendment if it was made clear that the local authority should appoint women, managers.

MR. BROADHURST (Leicester)

expressed the opinion that the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman was a perfectly reasonable one. The right hon. Gentleman had promised to introduce certain words in the scheme that should remove all doubts as to the nominating of women on these Education Committees. He opposed the Amendment, on the ground that the women teachers would obtain as mach, if not more, justice from a Board composed of men as from a mixed Board.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

(7.26.) Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 194; Noes, 148. (Division List No. 321.)

AYES.
Acland-Hood, Capt. SirAlex. F. Forster, Henry William Morrell, George Herbert
Anson, Sir William Reynell Foster, Sir Michael (Lond. Univ. Morrison, James Archibald
Arkwright, John Stanhope Foster, PhilipS. (Warwick, S. W Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Gardner, Ernest Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham(Bute
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitzroy Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Lincs. Myers, William Henry
Bailey, James (Walworth) Gorst, Right Hn. Sir John Eldon Nicholson, William Graham
Bain, Colonel James Robert Goulding, Edward Alfred Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)
Balcarres, Lord Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r Gretton, John Parkes, Ebenezer
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Peel, Hn Wm. Robert Wellesley
Balfonr, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds Guthrie, Walter Murray Penn, John
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. Pierpoint, Robert
Bartley, George C. T. Hambro, Charles Eric Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Beach, Rt Hn Sir Michael Hicks Hamilton, Rt Hn Ld. G. (Midd'x. Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Bignold, Arthur Hamilton Marq. of (L'nd'nderry Pretyman, Ernest George
Bigwood, James Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Blundell, Colonel Henry Hare, Thomas Leigh Purvis, Robert
Bond, Edward Harris, Frederick Leverton Pym, C. Guy
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Haslett, Sir James Horner Randles, John S.
Bousfield, William Robert Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. Rankin, Sir James
Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh. Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley Rasch, Major Frederick Carne
Bull, William James Henderson, Sir Alexander Reid, James (Greenock)
Butcher, John George Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Remnant, James Farquharson
Campbell, Rt Hn J. A. (Glasgow Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. Renshaw, Charles Bine
Carlile, William Walter Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside Renwick, George
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Richards, Henry Charles
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire Hoult, Joseph Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Howard, J.(Midd., Tottenham) Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Chamberlain, J. Austen (W're'r Hudson, George Bickersteth Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Chapman, Edward Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.) Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Charrington, Spencer Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln
Churchill, Winston Spencer Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (I. of Wight)
Clare, Octavius Leigh Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)
Clive, Captain Percy A. Kenyon-Slaney, Col.W.(Salop Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.
Coghill, Douglas Harry King, Sir Henry Seymour Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Knewles, Lees Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)
Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Colston, Charles Edw. H. Athole Lawson, John Grant Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Lee, ArthurH. (Hants. Fareham Talbot, Rt Hn.J. G.(Oxf'd Univ
Corbett, T. L. (Down. North) Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Thornton, Percy M.
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Tollemache, Henry James
Cranborne, Lord Llewellyn, Evan Henry Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Cabitt, Hon. Henry Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Valentia, Viscount
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. Walker, Col. William Hall
Dickson, Charles Scott Lonsdale, John Brownlee Warde, Colonel C. E.
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Lowe, Francis William Warr, Augustus Frederick
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) Webb, Colonel William George
Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E. Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth) Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Macdona, John Cumming Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. Willox, Sir John Archibald
Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J. (Manc'r Maxwell, W. J. H (Dumfries-sh. Wills, Sir Frederick
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Middlemore, JohnThrogmort'n Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Finch, Georye H. Mildmay, Francis Bingham Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Milvain, Thomas Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas Molesworth, Sir Lewis Wylie, Alexander
Fisher, William Hayes Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Fison, Frederick William Montagu, Hon.J. Scott (Hants
Flannery, Sir Fortescue Moon, Edward Robert Pacy TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire Sir William Walrond and
Flower, Ernest Morgan, David J. (W'thamst'w Mr. Anstruther.
NOES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E. Bell, Richard Brigg, John
Allen, Charles P. (Gloue., Stroud Black, Alexander William Broadhnrst, Henry
Asher, Alexander Boland, John Brown, George M. (Edinburgh
Ashton, Thomas Gair Bolton, Thomas Dolling Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Helme, Norval Watson Power, Patrick Joseph
Buxton, Sydney Charles Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Price, Robert John
Caldwell, James Holland, Sir William Henry Rea, Russell
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Horniman, Frederick John Reddy, M.
Causton, Richard Knight Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Cawley, Frederick Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Redmond, William (Clare)
Channing, Francis Allston Jacoby, James Alfred Reid, Sir R. Threshie(Dumfries
Clancy, John Joseph Jones. William (Carnarvonsh. Rickett, J. Compton
Cogan, Denis J. Jordan, Jeremiah Rigg, Richard
Craig, Robert Hunter Joyce, Michael Roberts, John Bryn(Eifion
Crean, Eugene Langley, Batty Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Cremer, William Randal Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.) Robson, William Snowdon
Dalziel, James Henry Layland-Barratt, Francis Roche, John
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Leamy, Edmund Runciman, Walter
Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington Schwann. C'harles E.
Delany, William Levy, Maurice Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)
Devlin, Joseph Lewis, John Herbert Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. Lloyd-George, David Shipman, Dr. John G.
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Lough, Thomas Soares, Ernest J.
Dillon, John MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. Sullivan, Donal
Donelan, Captain A. MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Taylor, Theodore Cooke
Doogan, P. C. MacVeagh, Jeremiah Tennant, Harold John
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) M'Arthur, William (Cornwall Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Duffy, William J. M'Kenna, Reginald Thomas, J A (Glamorg'n. Gower
Duncan, J. Hastings Mansfield, Horace Rendall Toulmin, George
Dunn, Sir William Mather, Sir William Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Edwards, Frank Mooney, John J. Tully. Jasper
Emmott, Alfred Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Ure, Alexander
Farquharson, Dr. Robert Moss, Samuel Wallace, Robert
Farrell, James Patrick Murnaghan, George Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.
Ffrench, Peter Murphy, John Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund Newnes, Sir George Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan
Flavin, Michael Joseph Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) White, George (Norfolk)
Flynn, James Christopher O'Brien. James F. X. (Cork) White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co. O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Whiteley, George(York, W. R.)
Fuller, J. M. F. O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Gilhooly, James O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Goddard, Daniel Ford O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Grant, Corrie O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Wilson, Fred.W.(Norfolk, Mid
Griffith, Ellis J. O' Kelly, James (Roscommon, N Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.)
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton O'Malley, William Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersfi'd
Hammond, John O'Mara, James Yoxall, James Henry
Harmsworth, R. (Leicester) O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Harwood, George Partington, Oswald
Hayden, John Patrick Pearson, Sir Weetman D. TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Hayne. Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) Mr. Fenwick and Mr.
Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D. Pickard, Benjamin Wm. Abraham (Rhondda)

(7.38.) Question put accordingly, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 99; Noes, 239. (Division List No. 322.)

AYES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan Hayne, Rt. Hon. CharlesSeale-
Allen, Charles P(Glouc., Stroud Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.
Asher, Alexander Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Helme, Norval Watson
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. Duncan, J. Hastings Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.
Bell, Richard Dunn, Sir William Hobhouse, Henry(Somerset, E.
Black, Alexander William Edwards, Frank Holland, Sir William Henry
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Emmott. Alfred Horniman, Frederick John
Bond, Edward Farquharson, Dr. Robert Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.
Bousfield, William Robert Fenwick, Charles Jacoby, James Alfred
Brigg, John Foster, Sir Michael (Lond. Univ. Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co. Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Fuller, J. M. F. Langley, Batty
Caldwell, James Goddard, Daniel Ford Layland-Barratt, Francis
Causton, Richard Knight Grant, Corrie Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington
Cawley, Frederick Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Levy, Maurice
Channing, Francis Allston Griffith, Eills J. Lloyd-George, David
Craig, Robert Hunter Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Longh, Thomas
Dalziel, James Henry Harmsworth, R. Leicester M'Kenua, Reginald
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Harwood, George Mansfield, Horace Rendall
Mather, Sir William Schwann, Charles E. Wason, Eugene(Clackmannan)
Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) White, George (Norfolk)
Moss, Samuel Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Newnes, Sir George Shipman, Dr. John G. Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Partington, Oswald Soares, Ernest J. Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Pearson, Sir Weetman D. Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Williams, Osmond (Merioneth
Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) Taylor, Theodore Cooke Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.
Pickard, Benjamin Tennant, Harold John Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.)
Price, Robert John Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr Woodhouse, Sir J. T (Huddersf'd
Rea, Russell Thomas, J A (Glamorg'n, Gower Yoxall, James Henry
Reid, Sir R. Threshie(Dumfries Toulmin, George
Rickett, J. Compton Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Rigg, Richard Ure, Alexander TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Wallace, Robert Mr. Herbert Lewis and
Robson, William Snowdon Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S. Sir John Brunner.
Runciman, Walter Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
NOES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E. Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.)
Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse
Anson, Sir William Reynell Dillon, John Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. ArthurFred.
Arkwright, John Stanhope Donelan, Captain A. Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Doogan, P. C. Jordan, Jeremiah
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. Joyce, Michael
Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitzroy Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop
Bailey, James (Walworth) Duffy, William J. King, Sir Henry Seymour
Bain, Colonel James Robert Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Knowles, Lees
Balcarres, Lord Dyke, Rt Hon. Sir William Hart Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Farrell, James Patrick Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.
Balfour, Capt, C. B. (Hornsey Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)
Bartley, George C. T. Ffrench, Peter Lawson, John Grant
Beach, Rt Hn. Sir Michael Hicks Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Leamy, Edmund
Bignold, Arthur Finch, George H. Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareham
Bigwood, James Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage
Blundell, Colonel Henry Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie
Boland, John Fisher, William Hayes Llewellyn, Evan Henry
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Fison, Frederick William Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.
Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh. Flannery, Sir Fortescue Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Bull, William James Flavin, Michael Joseph Long. Rt, Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)
Butcher, John George Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Lonsdale, John Brownlee
Campbell, Rt Hn. J. A. (Glasgow Flower, Ernest Lowe, Francis William
Campbell, John (Armagh, S. Flynn, James Christopher Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)
Carew, James Laurence Forster, Henry William Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)
Carlile, William Walter Foster, PhilipS. (Warwick, S. W Lucas, ReginaldJ. (Portsmouth
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Gardner, Ernest Macdona, John Cumming
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh. Gilhooly, James MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick MacNeill, John Gordon Swift
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- (Line.) MacVeagh, Jeremiah
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wore'r Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)
Chapman, Edward Goulding, Edward Alfred M'Kean, John
Charrington, Spencer Gretton, John Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.
Churchill, Winston Spencer Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Maxwell, W. J. H.(Dumfries-sh
Clancy, John Joseph Guthrie, Walter Murray Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Clare, Octavius Leigh Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. Milvain, Thomas
Clive, Captain Percy A. Hambro, Charles Eric Molesworth, Sir Lewis
Cogan, Denis J. Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Mid'x Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)
Coghill, Douglas Harry Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nd'rry Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Hammond, John Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Hanbury, Rt Hon. Robert Wm. Mooney, John J.
Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready Hare, Thomas Leigh More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Harris, Frerick Leverton Morgan, David J. (Walthmst'w
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Haslett, Sir James Horner Morrell, George Herbert
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo. Morrison, James Archibald
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Hayden, John Patrick Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptf'rd)
Cranborne, Lord Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley Murnaghan, George
Crean, Eugene Henderson, Sir Alexander Murphy, John
Cremer, William Randal Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Myers, William Henry
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Hoult, Joseph Nicholson, William Graham
Delany, William Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) Nicol, Donald Ninian
Devlin, Joseph Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N
Dickson, Charles Scott Hudson, George Bickersteth Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South,
O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) Reddy, M. Thornton, Percy M.
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Tollemaclie, Henry James
O'Brien. P. J. (Tipperary, N.) Redmond, William (Clare) Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. Reid, James (Greenock) Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) Remnant, James Farquharson Tully, Jasper
U'Donnell. T. (Kerry, W.) Renshaw, Charles Bine Valentia, Viscount
O'Kelly, James (Roscomnion, N. Renwick, George Walker, Col. William Hall
O'Malley, William Richards, Henry Charles Warde, Colonel C. E.
O'Mara, James Ridley, S. Forde (BethnalGreen Warr, Augustus Frederick
O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Ritchie, Rt Hon. Chas. Thomson Webb, Colonel William George
Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Parkes, Ebenezer Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield) Whiteley, H (Ashton-und-Lyne
Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesl'y Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset
Penn, John Roche, John Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Pierpoint, Robert Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander Willox, Sir John Archibald
Platt-Higgins, Frederick Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln) Wills, Sir Frederick
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Power, Patrick Joseph Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) Wodehouse, Rt Hn. E. R. (Bath)
Pretyman, Ernest George Smith, James Parker(Lanarks. Wortley, Rt. Hon.C. B. Stuart-
Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Smith, Hon.W. F. D. (Strand) Wylie, Alexander
Purvis, Robert Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Pym, C. Guy Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)
Randles. John S. Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Rankin, Sir James Sullivan, Donal Sir William Walrond and
Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ Mr. Anstruther.

It being after half-past Seven of the Clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.

Committee report progress; to sit again this evening.