§ Copy presented, of Accounts and Estimates relating to the Civil List [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
§ Paragraph in the King's Speech respecting the Civil List at the opening of Parliament, and His Majesty's Message of the fifth day of this instant March, read as follows:—
§ "Gentlemen of the House of Commons,
§ "The demise of the Crown renders it necessary that a renewed provision shall lie made for the Civil List. I place unreservedly at your disposal those hereditary revenues which were so placed by My predecessor: and I have commanded that the Papers necessary for a full consideration of tin subject shall be laid before you."
§ "Edward R.
§ "His Majesty being desirous of making competent provision for the honourable support and maintenance of His Son, the Duke of Cornwall and York. His Daughter-in-law, the Duchess of Cornwall and York, and His Daughters, the Princess Louise, Duchess of Fife, the Princess Victoria, and Princess Charles of Denmark, and being further desirous that similar provision should be made for Her Majesty the Queen in the event of Her surviving Him, and for the Duchess of Cornwall and York in the event of Her surviving the Duke of Cornwall and York, recommends the consideration thereof to His Majesty's faithful Commons, and relies on their attachment to adopt such measures as may be suitable to the occasion."
§ *The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Sir M. HICKS BEACH,) Bristol, W.It will be unnecessary for me to take up the time of the House in explaining the reasons why it is incumbent on the House to take some action 1182 on the gracious Message from the Throne which has just been read. I will simply quote the provisions of the Civil List of 1837, passed on the accession of Her late Majesty, by which it was declared, in precise conformity with similar Acts of previous reigns, that the several hereditary revenues of the Crown which had become payable to Her late Majesty on her accession should be carried to the Consolidated Fund for her life, and that in lieu thereof a fixed revenue should be paid to Her Majesty called the Civil List, but that on and after her decease this arrangement should end, and that the hereditary revenues should be payable to her heirs and successors—a period of six months, however, being allowed to elapse during which it would be possible for Parliament to make a fresh arrangement on this important matter.
As the House is aware, Sir, His Majesty the King has, in precise conformity with the course adopted by Queen Victoria, placed unreservedly at our disposal the hereditary revenues so placed by her; and it is therefore necessary for us to consider afresh, as at the commencement of the previous reign, the provision of the Civil List for the Crown. The provision made by the Act of 1889 for the children of His Majesty, then the Prince of Wales, lapses at the end of six months after the decease of Queen Victoria; and therefore we are also invited to deal with the position of the son and daughters of the King, which, in conformity with past practice, will be dealt with outside the Civil List, as well as the possibility that Hex Majesty the Queen may survive His Majesty and the Duchess of Cornwall and York may survive the Duke of Cornwall and York. It is clear, I think, that Parliament must take some action in the present condition of affairs, and the only question it is necessary for me to bring before the House is the method I of procedure we should adopt with regard to it. We have a series of precedents, which, even if there were no reasons in its favour, I think sufficiently: dictate to us the course we should adopt. At the accession of William IV., and again at the accession of Her late Majesty, and lastly in 1889 on an analogous subject, the House of Commons decided to appoint a strong Select Com- 1183 mittee to investigate the whole subject before any resolution was submitted to Parliament
It is not my intention this evening to state to the House the proposals which, on the responsibility of the Government, will be made with regard to the new Civil List. Those proposals will be made in the first instance to the Select Committee. The Committee will also have before it papers which I shall lay on the Table to-night, giving a full account in every detail of the amount of the expenditure of the Civil List during Her late Majesty's reign, and also of the net hereditary revenues received by the nation for the same time; and, further, the sums payable to the Sovereign and the Prince of Wales each year from the Duchy of Lancaster and the Duchy of Cornwall respectively. We shall produce to the Committee any further information bearing on this subject which they may desire; and, furnished with that information, they will be in a position to examine our proposals with the scrutiny which such proposals properly require and to report to the House. Their report will, of course, contain not merely their conclusions, but the information with which they have been supplied. On that report we shall base resolutions which will be submitted to the House and form the foundation of the Bill. I think it will be seen, therefore, that there will be full and ample opportunity for the discussion of the subject in the House of Commons as soon as the materials are placed before the House on which alone their conclusions can properly be based. I trust that when that time comes there will not be any wide difference of opinion among us.
Many subjects which in old times were matters of great controversy with regard to the Civil list have now disappeared. There were gross abuses on the Civil List in former days which have happily been removed; and now, I think, there is a universal agreement in this—that the Civil List shall not contain anything but that which is necessary for the proper maintenance of the dignity and state of the Crown, and also of the households of their Majesties. And, Sir, we also stand in a favourable position in one other respect to which I must 1184 briefly allude. In former reigns great and frequent applications were made to Parliament, after the Civil List had been fixed, for the payment of the debts of the Sovereign or of members of the Royal Family. Her late Majesty's Civil List was fixed sixty-four years ago; and, Sir,, although it is a small matter among all that our nation owes to our late Queen, yet it will not be improper for me to remind the House on this occasion that during all these years—and in spite of the fact that during the later years of her reign her expenditure was greater than the revenue which Parliament had provided—not one application was made by our late Queen to Parliament for anything in addition to the Civil List provided by Parliament. If we may look back to the past with satisfaction— and it is a matter of no small importance as affecting the relations between the Crown, Parliament, and the people—I think we may also look to the future with confidence. His present Majesty has for many years occupied an exceptional position. For more than a generation he has, as Prince of Wales, from circumstances which will be fresh in our minds, had to perform to an exceptional extent the duties of Royalty, and that necessarily devolved upon him exceptional expenditure as compared with that which would be ordinarily required from the Heir-Apparent to the Crown. His annuity from Parliament was fixed more than thirty years ago; and that annuity, with the revenues of the Duchy, forming together an income not large when compared with the incomes of not a few private individuals among us, has proved sufficient for his present Majesty to perform all the exceptional duties to which I have referred in a manner for which he is entitled to the gratitude of the country, and to deal with all those who were in any way dependent upon him in a spirit of generous consideration for their comfort and welfare which has been an example, to the nation at large. Therefore, though when the time comes for us to settle the precise terms of the fresh bargain, so to speak, which we have now to make with the Crown, there may be differences of opinion as to the sum which has to be provided, yet we may all agree in this—that the liberality of Parliament will not be abused.
1185 There is another matter on which we may all agree, and that is the principle which should govern our action. The basis of our proposals will necessarily be the Civil List of her late Majesty, with such variations as the altered circumstances and the experience of more than sixty years may show to be necessary. Among these altered circumstances the most important is that his present Majesty is blessed with a Queen Consort who, ever since she first came among us from her northern home, has charmed the hearts of the people, and who is preeminently possessed of all those qualifications that can most adorn the social centre of the Empire. We shall remember, too, I think, with one accord that our King is not only King of the United Kingdom, but the head of a world-wide Empire. There may still be among us different theoretical opinions as to the best form of government; but surely none will deny that there never was a time when the constitutional monarchy was more universally popular in the Empire than the present, or that it is incumbent, as a matter of honour, upon the people to provide adequately for the dignity of the head of the State. And yet, Sir, I believe we shall all be agreed that this ought to be done without extravagance; for there is something in the quiet temper of our people which, though all of them would desire a splendid Court, would yet be entirely out of harmony with extravagant waste and mere senseless or useless display. Sir, we shall endeavour to make our proposals in that spirit—in a spirit of justice to the Crown on the one side, and to the people on the other; and I believe that, if they are found to be so framed, the taxpayers of this country will not grudge in the smallest degree to provide adequately and properly for the dignity and the honour of a Monarch who has been always personally popular among us and who, by his every act and word since his accession has shown his desire and his capacity worthily to tread in the footsteps of the best and most beloved Queen that has ever reigned in this realm. I beg to move.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed. "That a Select Committee be appointed to consider so much of His Majesty's 1186 Speech to both Houses at the opening j of Parliament as relates to the Civil List and His Majesty's Most Gracious Message of the 5th March relating to Grants to Her Majesty the Queen and Members of His Majesty's Family."—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
§ Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN (Stirling Burghs)The course which the right hon. Gentleman suggests for the approval of the House is in accordance with the best recent precedents, and is recommended by a consideration for the dignity and convenience as well as for the interests of the House and of the country. I shall therefore say no more than that I beg to second the motion.
§ Mr. JOHN REDMOND (Waterford)who had the following Amendment on the Paper—
That this House declines to take any steps in connection with the Civil List until His Majesty's Government announce their intention of introducing legislation to alter the declaration made by the Sovereign on ascending the Throne, such declaration being grossly offensive to His Majesty's Catholic subjects,said: As the members of the Irish party in this House decline to appoint any of their number to serve on this Committee, contrary to the practice in reference to the appointment of Committees in this House. I think it would be well that I should have the opportunity of explaining shortly to the House why they take up that attitude. I confess, Sir, for my part, it is a matter of regret-that upon an occasion such as this we have been forced by the rules of order to bring up the question which is in my mind, hut we have had no other course open to us. It was utterly impossible for us to lie party to the appointment of this Committee, or to take any steps in connection with the Civil List, until we had some assurance that the declaration which was taken by the Sovereign on ascending the Throne, and which by, I think, universal admission is of a character grossly offensive to many millions of the subjects of this Empire, and to some hundreds of millions of Catholics throughout the world, was to be made the subject of review and amendment on the part of the Government.
§ *Mr. SPEAKERThe Amendment I which the lion, and learned Gentleman 1187 has placed upon the Paper will not be in order; and it follows that any observations addressed to the question whether the declaration made by His Majesty under statute ought or ought not to be repealed by Parliament will also be irrelevant and out of order.
§ Mr. JOHN REDMONDI bow at once to your ruling, but I am sure you will not think I am guilty of any disrespect to you when I say that I deeply regret that that ruling puts me in the position of having to offer opposition to the appointment of this Committee without being able to state the reasons. It may seem to some people a blind opposition. Of course, if the Government are in a position to announce any change of attitude on the question I have alluded to, the situation will be altered. I have seen a statement in the newspapers that such is the intention of His Majesty's Government. If they are in a position to make such an announcement, of course the difficulties with which I find myself faced will, to a very large extent, disappear, but failing the obtaining of a declaration of the character I have indicated from the Government, and as by the rules of order my mouth is shut from giving my reasons for the opposition, I can only fall back on opposition itself; and I beg to say that at every stage in regard to the appointment of the Committee, and every step taken in connection with the Civil List, I will offer a vigorous opposition, unless we obtain justice in this matter.
§ The FIRST LORD of the TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,) Manchester, E.I understand, Sir, from your ruling that it would be out of order to discuss the question of the Oath which has been taken by His Majesty according to statute, and which, of course, will not require to be taken again, even if the law remains unaltered, during the present reign. While it would be out of order to discuss that on the present motion, the hon. Gentleman has put to me a question as to the attitude of the Government. I do not know whether I am not going beyond, perhaps, what is usual in this House in referring to proceedings in the other House. But it is a fact, I understand, that the 1188 Prime Minister is to be asked in the other House whether the Government have any objection to appoint a Committee to inquire into the question of the Oath. So far as the Government are concerned no opposition to that Committee will be offered.
§ MR. JOHN REDMONDWhat sort of Committee?
§ MR. A.. J. BALFOURA Committee on which, at all events. Peers of the hon. Gentleman's faith will be fully represented.
§ MR. JOHN REDMONDDoes the right hon. Gentleman mean a Committee of Peers only?
§ Mr. A. J. BALFOURSo far as I am concerned I see no objection to a joint Committee. We shall offer no opposition if that is the desire.
§ Mr. JOHN REDMONDThen, Sir, in consequence of that statement I desire to say that while the Irish party will not take any part in serving on this Committee, and while we will not vote for it, under the circumstances we will abstain from voting against the appointment of the Committee, and reserve to ourselves the right, when the main question comes up for discussion on the Report of this Committee, to take what action we feel inclined to take, having, as we then will have, in our possession full information as to the proceedings of the Committee.
§ *Mr. KEIR HARDIE (Merthyr Tydvil)The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in submitting this motion to the House, has justified it, among other reasons, on the ground that it is necessary to investigate the whole subject. The motion as framed will not permit of the whole subject being investigated, and it will not enable the whole of the facts of the case to be placed before the country. I will move to add the following words to the resolution as printed on the Paper:
"And to prepare a Report to be presented to this House showing in detail every item of expenditure, including salaries, paid from public funds towards the support and maintenance of the Royal Family." I submit that motion 1189 for this reason chiefly—the Civil List does not, and does not pretend to, exhaust the expenditure upon the maintenance and support of the Royal Family. Even so astute an investigator as the right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean had to confess himself puzzled in seeking to trace all the items which might properly he placed under the head of Royal expenditure. It may be, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that there are differences of opinion as to the form the Head of the State should assume, but I think there will be no difference of opinion as to the desirability of presenting to the nation an honest and straightforward statement of the cost of maintaining the Head of the State, under whatever name he may be. When the proper moment arrives I will have something to say concerning the Crown lands alleged to be given in exchange for the Civil List. I may at this stage point out, in reply to the statement frequently made, that the late Civil List was the lowest ever paid to any Sovereign in this country, that such is not the case. The first Civil List framed—for William III.—provided that £700,000 should be set apart for the purposes of the Civil List; but Members, in comparing with that the £385,000 of the late Civil List, must not overlook the fact that, with the exception of the expenditure upon the Army and Navy, the £700,000 voted to William III, covered the entire cost of the civil government of the country. It was a sum voted not merely for the maintenance of Royalty, but, as its name implies, to cover the entire cost of the various departments of the civil administration. At the present time, anyone desirous of ascertaining the cost of the support and maintenance of the Royal Family has to search through the Civil List, annuities, pensions, salaries, expenditure upon yachts, and expenditure upon Royal trips, and various items which it is almost impossible to trace at all. For this reason I beg to submit the Amendment which I have read, its object being to secure a full and frank statement of account, which shall be presented to the nation, and without which his House is not in a position to settle the Civil List when the question comes before it. I beg to move.
§ Mr. WILLIAM REDMOND (Clare E.)formally seconded the Amendment.
§
Amendment proposed—
At the end of the Question, to add the words 'and to prepare a Report for presentation to this House showing in detail every item of expenditure from public funds towards the support and maintenance of the Royal Family."—(Mr. Keir Hardie.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there added."
§ *Sir M. HICKS BEACHI am not sure that I entirely appreciate what the hon. Member desires by adding these words to the motion, but I can assure him of this, that it is our intention to afford the fullest information to the Committee which any Member of it may desire on this subject. I happen to know, from a question asked by the hon. Member for Northampton of my right hon. friend near me, that his attention has been directed to what I understand to be the desire of the hon. Member. And as the hon. Member for Northampton is proposed to be a member of the Committee, I have no doubt he will request the information in Committee. I trust, therefore, it will not he necessary to press this Amendment.
§ MR. KEIR HARDIEI understand that the desire expressed in the motion is already covered by the terms of the resolution. I have no desire to put the House to the trouble of a division, and if I am to understand from the right hon. Gentleman that the terms of the resolution are already wide enough to cover the object I have expressed, I will withdraw my Amendment.
§ *SIR M. HICKS BEACHOf course. I cannot he absolutely certain that the hon. Member will be satisfied.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Original Question put, and agreed to.
§ Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed to consider so much of His Majesty's Speech to both Houses at the opening of Parliament as relates to the Civil List, and His Majesty's Most Gracious Message of the 5th March 1191 relating to Grants to Her Majesty the Queen and Members of His Majesty's Family.
§ Ordered, That the several Papers presented this day relating to the Civil List he referred to the Committee.
§ Ordered, That the Committee List of Twenty-one Members.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. A. J. Balfour be a member of the said Committee."
§ MR. WILLIAM REDMONDPersonally I have no objection whatever to the First Lord of the Treasury being a member of this Committee, as he probably is one of the persons most fitted to serve thereon, but I take this opportunity of saying that in my opinion the appointment of the right hon. Gentleman to serve on a Committee to deal with the expenditure of large sums of money every year is at the present time not appropriate, seeing that there are millions and millions of His Majesty's subjects dying of famine in India, and nothing is being done by the Government for them.
§ Mr. DALZIEL (Kirkcaldy Burghs)I think we might have some sort of explanation from the Leader of the House as to the lines upon which he has proceeded in the composition of this Committee. It is usual in Select Committees—although this, of course, is not a party question—that the Government should have a majority of one. It seems to me that the Committee ought to represent, more than it does, the different countries. This is practically an English Committee. Ireland has one member, Wales has no member at all, and Scotland has two members, one of whom is the Leader of the Opposition. Scotland, at all events, ought to be better represented, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Stirling Burghs is on the Committee in his official capacity as Leader of the Opposition, so that we have only one unofficial member to represent the whole of Scotland. It seems to me that the Government should not be as well represented as they are, and I will even say that the Front Opposition Bench should not be so well represented. I do not 1192 wish to divide against the right hon. Gentleman's name being included, but I do desire to protest against the composition of the Committee.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI hope the hon. Member will not go away with the impression that any unusual machinery has been used in the appointment of this Committee. We have followed the ordinary practice. The Government do not appoint the Committee. It is appointed by machinery with which the hon. Gentleman is thoroughly acquainted. The majority of Welsh Members sit on the other side of the House, and their interests should be looked after by light hon. Gentlemen opposite.
§ *Mr. TENNANT (Berwickshire)The right hon. Gentleman has said nothing about Scotland. I rose for the purpose of opposing my hon. friend on the ground that the right hon. Gentleman is a most admirable representative of Scotland, although be has the misfortune to be an English Member. But I do think Scotland has not been well treated in this matter, and that the Committee of Selection might have thought fit to propose some other Member from the country to which I have the honour to belong.
MR. BRYNMOR JONES (Swansea District)As the First Lord of the Treasury has referred to the fact that the Welsh Members have made no complaint the composition of this Committee—
§ A. J. BALFOURI did not say so.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURWhat I said was that, as the House knows, we on this side of the House do not interfere with the selection of Members on the other side. The majority of Welsh Members are on that side of the House, and therefore their interests, if they have been neglected, which I do not at all admit, should have been looked after by gentlemen sitting on that side of the House, not on this.
MR. BRYNMOR JONESThat is exactly the fact I was leading up to. The Welsh Members are satisfied, because my right hon. friend the Member for West Monmouth and my hon. friend the Member for North Monmouth are to be Members of the Committee, and they look upon that as an admission that Monmouthshire is in future to be regarded as a part of Wales.
§ MR. T. M. HEALY (Louth, N.)Will this be a private Committee, and will a record be kept?
§ SIR M. HICKS BEACHThe ordinary record will be kept, but the proceedings will, of course, be of a private nature.
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§ Motion made, and Question, "That Mr. Bartley, Sir John Brunner, Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sir Frederick Dixon-Hartland, Sir William Hart-Dyke, Sir Henry Fowler, Sir William Harcourt be other Members of the said Committee," put and agreed to.
1194§ Motion made, and Question proposed. "That Sir Samuel Hoare be one other Member of the said Committee."
§ MR. DALZIELI need scarcely say that I have no personal objection to the hon. Gentleman whose name is now proposed. Under ordinary circumstances he would be a most excellent member of the Committee. The right hon. Gentleman represents an English constituency, and my sole object in opposing his selection is to move the insertion of the name of the hon. Member for Berwickshire as representing Scotland.
§ *MR. SPEAKERThe hon. Member cannot move the insertion of a name. Names cannot be moved without notice.
§ MR. DALZIELThen I beg to move the omission.
§ *MR. SPEAKERThe hon. Member need not move the omission. He can negative the motion.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 300; Noes, 25. (Division List No. 52.)
1197| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt.Sir Alex.F. | Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Cubitt, Hon. Henry |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Brown, Alex. H. (Shropshire | Cust, Henry John C. |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Dalrymple, Sir Charles |
| Allen, Charles P (Glouc., Stroud | Bryce, Rt. Hon. James | Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) |
| Archdale, Edward Mervyn | Burdett-Coutts, W. | Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham) |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Buxton, Sydney Charles | Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Campbell-Banneman, Sir H. | Dewar,TR(T'rHmlets,St.Geo. |
| Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis | Causton, Richard Knight | Dickson, Charles Scott |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Cavendish. R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield |
| Asquit J, Rt. Hn HerbertHenry | Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) | Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred. D. |
| Bagot, Capt. Joceline FitzRoy | Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Chamberlain. Rt. Hon J.(Birm. | Douglas, Chas. M. (Lanark) |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Chamberlain,J. Austen (Worc. | Doxford, Sir William Theodore |
| Baird, John Geo. Alexander | Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Duke, Henry Edward |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Chapman. Edward | Duncan, James H. |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r) | Charrington, Spencer | Dunn, Sir William |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. G.W. (Leeds) | Churchill, Winston Spencer | Dyke,Rt. Hon Sir William Hart |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Edwards, Frank |
| Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor) | Coddington, Sir William | Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton |
| Bartley, George C. T. | Coghill, Douglas Harry | Ellios, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Ellis, John Edward |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H.(Bristol | Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Emmott, Alfred |
| Beach, Rt. Hon. W. W. B (Hants | Colomb, Sir J. Charles Ready | Evans, Sir F. H. (Maidstone) |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Colston, Chas. E. H. Athole | Fardell, Sir T. George |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Cook, Frederick Lucas | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw. |
| Bigwood, James | Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasg'w | Fenwick, Charles |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J (Manc'r |
| Boulnois, Edmund | Craig, Robert Hunter | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne |
| Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex) | Cranborne, Viscount | Fisher, William Hayes |
| Bowles,T. Gibson (King'sLynn) | Cremer, William Randal | Fison, Frederick William |
| Brand, Hon. Arthur G | Cripps, Charles Alfred | Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A. |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton) | Flannery, Sir Fortescue |
| Fletcher, Sir Henry | Leveson-Gower, Fred. N. S. | Renshaw, Charles Bine |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | Levy, Maurice | Rentoul, James Alexander |
| Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Lock wood, Lt.-Col. A. R. | Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson |
| Garfit, William | Long, Col. Chas. (Evesham) | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Gibbs, Hon. Vicary(St. Albans | Long,Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol,S | Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) |
| Gladstone, Rt Hn. Herbert John | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | Lowe, Francis William | Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye |
| Gordon,Hn. J. E.(Elgin & Nairn | Lowther, Rt. Hn. James (Kent) | Ropner, Colonel Robert |
| Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'ml'ts | Lowther, Rt Hn J W (Cum,. Penr | Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter |
| Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon | Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) | Round, James |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsm'th) | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Graham, Henry Robert | Macartney, Rt. Hn. W G Ellison | Russell, T. W. |
| Grant, Corrie | Macdona, John Cumming | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford |
| Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Maconochie, A. W. | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) |
| Greene, Sir E. W.(BurySt. Ed. | M.Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| Gretton, John | M 'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J |
| Greville, Hon. Ronald | M'Iver, SirLewis (Edinburgh W | Scott,Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Gunter, Colonel | M'Kenna, Reginald | Seely, Charles Hilton(Lincoln) |
| Hain, Edward | M'Laren, Charles Benjamin | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Haldane, Richard Burdon | Malcolm, Ian | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Halsey, Thomas Frederick | Markham, Arthur Basil | Simeon, Sir Harrington |
| Hamilton, Rt.Hn Lord G (Mid'x | Martin, Richard Biddulph | Sincair, Capt. John (Forfarsh.) |
| Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nderry | Mather, William | Smith. Abel H. (Hertford, East) |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. | Maxwell,RtHnSirHE(Wigton | Smith, JamesParker(Lanarks) |
| Hardie, J. K. (Merthyr Tydvil | Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh | Smith, Samuel (Flint) |
| Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford) | Mellor,Rt. Hon. John William | Smith, Hon.W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Hare, Thomas Leigh | Melville, Beresford Valentine | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th) | Middlemore, J. Throgmorton | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Haslam, Sir Alfred S. | Milward, Colonel Victor | Speneer,Rt. Hn. CR(Northants |
| Haslett, Sir James Horner | Molesworth, Sir Lewis | Stanley,Edw. Jas. (Somerset) |
| Hay, Hon. Claude George | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Hayne,Rt.Hon. Charles Seale- | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Stevenson, Francis S. |
| Heaton, John Henniker | Moore, William (Antrim, N.) | Strachey, Edward |
| Helme, Norval Watson | More, Robert J. (Shropshire) | Stroyan, John |
| Hoare,Ed.Brodie(Hampstead) | Morgan, J. L. (Carmarthen) | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Hobhouse,C.E. H. (Bristol, E.) | Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F. | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier |
| Hobhouse,Henry(Somerset,E. | Morrison, James Archibald | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Hogg, Lindsay | Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) | Talbot, Rt. Hn J. G. (Oxf'dUniv |
| Holland, William Henry | Mount, William Arthur | Thomas,F.Freeman-(Hastings |
| Hope,J.F(Sheffield,Brig'htside | Muntz, Philip A. | Thomas,J A(GlamorganGower |
| Horner, Frederick William | Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) | Thorburn, Sir' Walter |
| Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Hy. | Murray, Col.Wyndham(Bath) | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Hoult, Joseph | Myers, William Henry | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) | Nicholson, William Graham | Tufnell, Col. Edward |
| Hozier, Hon. Jas. Henry Cecil | Nicol, Donald Ninian | Valentin, Viscount |
| Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens | Wanklyn, James Leslie |
| Johnston, William (Belfast) | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay | Warner, Thos, Courtenay T. |
| Jones, David Brynmor (Sw'ns'a | Palmer, Sir Chas. M. (Durham) | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
| Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) | Palmer, Geo. Wm. (Reading) | Wason, Jn. Cathcart (Orkney |
| Kearley, Hudson E. | Palmes, Walter (Salisbury) | Welby, Lt-Col. ACE (Taunlon) |
| Kennaway,Rt. Hon. Sir John H. | Pease, H. Pike (Darlington) | Wharton, Rt.Hon.JohnLloyd |
| Kenyon-Slaney,Col.W. (Salop. | Pemberton, John S. G. | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Kimber, Henry | Perks, Robert William | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Kinloch, Sir John Geo. Smyth | Philipps, John Wynford | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Knowles, Lees | Pickard, Benjamin | Williams, Rt Hn J Powell-(B'm |
| Labouchere, Henry | Pilkington, Richard | Wills, Sir Frederick |
| Lambert, George | Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Wilson,FredW (Norfolk, Mid) |
| Lambton, Hon. Fred. Wm. | Plummer, Walter R. | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Lawson, John Grant | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N. |
| Layland-Barratt, Francis | Pretyman, Ernest George | Wodehouse,Hn.Armine(Essex |
| Leeky, Rt. Hon. Wm. Ed. H. | Price, Robert John | Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B.Stuart- |
| Lee,Capt.AH(Hants,Fareham | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Purvis, Robert | Young, Commander (Berks, E.) |
| Leigh, Sir Joseph | Pym, C. Guy | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Leighton, Stanley | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne | Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Leng, Sir John | Reid, James (Greenock) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Caldwell, James | Farquharson, Dr. Robert |
| Black, Alexander William | Crombie, John William | Harmsworth, R. Leicester |
| Brown, GeorgeM.(Edinburgh) | Dike, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. |
| Caine, William Sproston | Elibank, Master of | Jacoby, James Alfred |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Sullivan, Donal | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Morton, Edw.J.C.(Devonport) | Tennant, Harold John | |
| Pirie, Duncan V. | Wallace, Robert | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Reid,SirR.Threshie (Dumfries | Weir, James Galloway | Mr. Dalziel and Mr. Eugene Wason. |
| Scott, Charles P. (Leigh) | Whiteley, G. (York, W. R.) | |
| Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
§ Ordered, That Mr. Jackson be one other Member of the Committee.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Sir James Kitson be one other Member of the Committee."—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
§ *Mr. KEIR HARDIEsaid he rose to move the omission of the name of Sir James Kitson. In the event of this name being omitted lie wished to give notice that lie would move to insert the name of the hon. Member for Battersea. He thought that it would be universally accepted by the House that there should he one direct representative of the work
§ ing classes on the Committee, and he knew of no one who better represented the working classes than his lion, colleague and friend the Member for Battersea. He understood that Sir James Kitson had been nominated for the Committee by the Opposition. He was surprised that the Opposition in nominating Members of the Committee should have overlooked such representatives of labour as the hon. Member for Battersea and the hon. Member for Normanton, to whom they owed so much.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes. 307; Noes, 17. (Division List No. 53.)
1199| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt.SirAlex. F. | Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Dunn, Sir William |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Causton, Richard Knight | Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart |
| Archdale, Edward Mervyn | Cavendish. V. C. W. (Derbysh.) | Edwards, Frank |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatten |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas |
| Asher, Alexander | Chamberlain, Rt.Hn. J. (Birm. | Ellis, John Edward |
| Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis | Chamberlain, J. Austen(Worc'r | Evans, Sir FrancisH.(Maidst.) |
| Asquith, Rt Hn. Herbert Henry | Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Fardell, Sir T. George |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Chapmar, Edward | Farquharson, Dr. Robert |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Charrington, Spencer | Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Churchill, Winston Spencer | Fenwick, Charles |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E. | Fergusson. Rt. Hn.Sir J (Manc'r |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Coddington, Sir William | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne |
| Baldwin, Alfred | Coghill, Douglas Harry | Fisher, William Hayes |
| Balfour, Rt.Hon.A.J. Manch'r | Cohen, Benjamin L. | Fison, Frederick William |
| Balfour,RtHn.GeraldW(Leeds | Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready | Fitzroy,Hn. Edward Algernon |
| Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor) | Colston, Chas. Edw H. Athole | Flannery, Sir Fortescue |
| Bartley, George C. T. | Cook, Frederick Lucas | Fletcher, Sir Henry |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Corbett. A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry |
| Beach, Rt Hn.Sir M.H.(Bristol) | Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge | Garfit, William |
| Beach, Rt. Hn.W.W.B.(Hants. | Craig, Robert Hunter | Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans) |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Cranborne, Viscount | Gladstone, Rt.Hn. Herb. John |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Cripps, Charles Alfred | Goddard, Daniel Ford |
| Bigwood, James | Crombie, John William | Gordon,Hn.J.E.(Elgin&Nairn |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) | Gordon, Maj. E. (T'r H'mlets) |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Gorst,Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon |
| Boulnois, Edmund | Cust, Henry John C. | Goulding, Edward Alfred |
| Bowles, Capt. H.F. (Middlesex) | Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Graham, Henry Robert |
| Bowles, T.Gibson King's Lynn | Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chathm | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) |
| Brand, Hon. Arthur G. | Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh) | Green, WaIfordD (Wednesbury |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. Sir John | Dewar, TR(T'r H'mlets,S.Geo. | Greene,Sir EW (B'ryS Edm'nds |
| Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Dickson, Charles Scott | Gretton, John |
| Brown Alexander H. (Shropsh. | Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Greville, Hon. Ronald |
| Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Dimsdale, Sir Jos. Cockfield | Gunter, Colonel |
| Bryce, Rt Hon. James | Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Hain, Edward |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Dixon-Hartland, SirFd. Dixon | Halsey, Thomas Frederick |
| Burns, John | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Hamilton, Rt Hn LordG (Mid'x. |
| Buxton, Sydney Charles | Douglas, Chas. M. (Lanark) | Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nd'rry |
| Caine, William Sproston | Doxford, SirWm. Theodore | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. |
| Hardy, Laurence (K'nt,Ashf'rd | M'Laren, Charles Benjamin | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Hare, Thomas Leigh | Majendie, James A. H. | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Harmsworth, R. Leicester | Malcolm, Ian | Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) |
| Harris,FLeverton(Tynemouth | Markham, Arthur Basil | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| Haslam, Sir Alfred S. | Martin, Richard Biddulph | Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. E. J. |
| Haslett, Sir James Horner | Mather, William | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Hay, Hon. Claude George | Maxwell, Rt.Hn Sir H E(Wigt'n | Seely, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Hayne,Rt.Hon. Charles Seale- | Maxwell, W.J.H.(Dumfriessh | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Heaton, John Henniker | Mellor, Rt. Hn. John Wm. | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
| Helme, Norval Watson | Melville, Beresford Valentine | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
| Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter | Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. | Sine lair, Capt. John (Forfarsh. |
| Hoare, Edw,Brodie (Hampstd. | Middlemore, Jn. Throgmorton | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) |
| Hobhouse,Henry (Somerset,E. | Milward, Colonel Victor | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.) |
| Hogg, Lindsay | Molesworth, Sir Lewis | Smith, JamesParker (Lanarks. |
| Holland, William Henry | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand |
| Hope, J. F(Sheffield,Brightsd. | Moon, Edward Robert Racy | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Hornby, Sir William Henry | Moore, William (Antrim, N.) | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Horner, Frederick William | More, Robt, Jasper (Shropsh. | Spencer, Rt.Hn.CR(N'rthants. |
| Houldsworth, Sir William H. | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen | Stanley, Ed ward Jas. (Somerset |
| Hoult, Joseph | Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F. | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Howard, J. (Mid., Tottenham) | Morrison, James Archibald | Stevenson, Francis S. |
| Hozier, Hon. James H. Cecil | Morton, Arthur H.A. (Deptford | Stroyan, John |
| Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick | Mount, William Arthur | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton | Muntz, Philip A. | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier |
| Johnston, William (Belfast) | Murray,RtHnA Grabam (Bute | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Joicey, Sir James | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Talbot, Rt.Hn. J.G. (Oxf'dUni. |
| Jones,DavidBrynmor(Swansea | Murray, Col.Wyndham(Bath) | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen,E. |
| Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) | Myers, William Henry | Thorburn, Sir Walter |
| Kearley, Hudson E. | Nicholson, William Graham | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Kennaway,Rt. Hn. SriJohnH. | Nicol, Donald Ninian | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Kenyon, Hn. G. T. (Denbigh) | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Tufnell, Col. Edward |
| Kenyon-Slaney,Col.W (Salop) | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens | Valencia, Viscount |
| Kimber, Henry | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay | Wallace, Robert |
| Knowles, Lees | Palmer, Sir C. M. (Durham) | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Lambert, George | Palmer, George W. (Reading) | Wanklyn James Leslie |
| Lambton, Hon. Frederick W. | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | Warner, Thomas CourtenayT. |
| Lawson, John Grant | Pease, Herbert P.(Darlington) | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
| Layland-Barratt, Francis | Pemberton, John S. G. | Wason, E. (Clackmannan) |
| Lecky, Rt. Hon. Wm. E. H. | Penn, John | Mason, John C. (Orkney) |
| Lee, Capt. A H (Hants,Fareham | Perks, Robert William | Welby,Lt.-Col. A C E(Taunton |
| Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Philipps, John Wynford | Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd |
| Leigh, Sir Joseph | Pilkington, Richard | White, Luke (York, E.R.) |
| Leighton, Stanley | Pirie, Duncan V. | Whiteley, Geo. (York, W.R.) |
| Leng, Sir John | Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Whiteley, H. (Ashton-n.-Lyne |
| Leveson-Gower, Fred N. S. | Plunmer, Walter R. | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Levy, Maurice | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Pretyman, Ernest George | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. | Price, Robert John | Williams, Rt Hn J. Powell- (Bir. |
| Long, Col. Chas. W.(Evesham | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | Wills, Sir Frederick |
| Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.) | Purvis, Robert | Wilson,Fred.W.(Norfolk,Mid |
| Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Pym, C. Guy | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Lowe, Francis William | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne | Wilson. J. W.(Worcestersh.N. |
| Lowther, Rt. Hon. Jas. (Kent | Reckitt, Harold James | Wodehouse,Hn.Armine(Essex |
| Lucas, Col Francis(Lowestoft) | Renshaw, Charles Bine | Wortley, Rt. Hon.C. B.Stuart- |
| Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmonuth | Rentoul, James Alexander | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Macartney, Rt.Hn.WG Ellison | Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Charles T. | Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong |
| Macdona, John Cumming | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) | Young, Commander(Berks,E.) |
| Maconochie, A. W. | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. | |
| M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool | Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| M'Arthur, William (Cornwall | Ropner, Col. Robert | Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| M'Iver, SirLewis(Edinb'h,W.) | Rothschild, Hon. Lionel W. | |
| M'Kenna, Reginald | Round, James | |
| NOES. | ||
| Allen, Chas. P. (Gloue., Stroud | Kinloch, Sir John GeorgeSmyth | Tennant, Harold John |
| Brown, GeorgeM. (Edinburgh) | Morton,Ed w. J. C. (Devonport) | Thomas, J A (Glamorgn, Gower |
| Caldwell, James | Murphy, J. | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Pickard, Benjamin | |
| Elibank, Master of | Russell, T. W. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Grant, Corrie | Shipman, Dr. John G. | Mr. Keir Hardie and Mr. Cremer. |
| Jacoby, James Alfred | Smith, Samuel (Flint) |
§ Ordered, That Mr. Labouchere, Mr. Macartney, Mr. M'Kenna, Mr. Mildmay, Mr. Renshaw, Mr. W. F. D. Smith, Mr. Stevenson, Mr. Warr, and Mr. Wharton be other Members of the Committee.
§ Ordered, That Five be the quorum.—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)