§ As amended by the Standing Committee, considered.
§ MR. RENSHAWsaid the clause which he desired to propose defined certain expressions in the application of the Bill to Scotland. He could not understand why Scotland had been treated exceptionally in respect of cremation. It could not be that Scot land was not favourable to cremation, because in the report issued by the Scottish Cremation Society it was stated that the number of cremations was steadily increasing every year, and that every satisfaction had been expressed at the arrangement at the crematorium. In a pamphlet which had been issued he observed that the system which had been adopted in Glasgow in respect of cremation was as effective as any system established in England, and the apparatus was one of the best. He hoped the House would, therefore, gather that Scotland was not behindhand in matters associated with cremation. The hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire was one of the presidents of the first cremation societies in Scotland, and he hoped the hon. Member would inform the House as to the desirability of giving local authorities in Scotland the same opportunities as regards cremation as were given in England.
§ LORD HUGH CECILasked, on a point of order, whether the clause ought not to be postponed until the House had considered Clause 10, which stated that the Bill should not apply to either Scotland or Ireland.
§ *MR. SPEAKERThe practice of the House compels new clauses to be taken 860 first on the Report stage. It occasionally leads to inconvenience and difficulty, but it cannot be departed from now.
§ MR. RENSHAWsaid he was quite willing to take a division as to whether the Bill should or should not extend to Scotland.
A Clause, (Definitions, Scotland), brought up, and read the first time.—(Mr. Renshaw.)
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."
SIR WALTER FOSTERsaid that if the Lord Advocate had no objection to offer on behalf of the Scotch Office, the Amendment might be accepted.
§ MR. LEES KNOWLES (Salford, W.)said he thought it was very desirable that the House should have an expression of opinion from the Front Bench with regard to the views of the Government on the subject, and he hoped the Lord Advocate would give the House some guidance. It did seem very curious that if they added the new clause proposed by his hon. friend, embodying certain definitions with regard to Scotland, they would later on come to Clause 10, which specifically stated that the Act should not apply to Scotland or Ireland. His hon. friend had said that he was perfectly willing to take a division on the question whether the Act should or should not apply to Scotland, and the hon. Gentleman opposite appeared to take the same view. He had looked through the Report of the Grand Committee, and must say that it was very meagre. It did not give the House much information. He had been informed that the subject of the application of this Bill to Scotland had not been brought before the Grand Committee for discussion at all. It seemed to him that, if this Bill was to be extended to Scotland and to Ireland, it should be remitted back to the Grand Committee on Law, that they might consider the proposed extension of the Bill to Scotland and to Ireland, and that the House might receive some assistance from the Grand Committee. He did not see many representatives from Ireland present. Possibly they had not taken into consideration that an Amendment extending the Bill to Ireland 861 would be brought forward. He believed that the Irish members were particularly averse to this new mode of dealing with dead bodies by cremation, and if they had thought the Amendment would be brought forward they would have had something to say on the matter. Personally, if the Bill was carried through this House, with the insertion of the proposed new clause extending it to Scotland, he could see no objection to its extension to Ireland. What was sauce for the goose was sauce for the gander. He hoped the Lord Advocate would give the House some advice on the matter.
MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid that, so far as he could see, there was no objection to the extension of the Bill to Scotland; but, while that was his personal opinion, he had had no opportunity of consulting the Local Government Board of Scotland. There were some expressions in the clause proposed by the hon. Member for Renfrewshire which would require to be altered. If the clause was road a second time, he would, therefore, move some verbal amendments upon it.
§ DR. FARQUHARSON (Aberdeenshire, W.)said, speaking as one of its vice-presidents, that the Cremation Society of Scotland was very strongly in favour of the proposed extension to Scotland. He hoped the Secretary for Scotland would take into very serious consideration the responsibility placed upon him under Clause 4 of making regulations for cremation.
§ *MR. TOMLINSON (Preston)said he had been a member of the Standing Committee, and he thought it was unfortunate, in the position in which the Bill now stood, that there really had been no adequate time between the nomination of the Committee and its sitting to give that close examination of the Bill which was desirable. He took it that that was the reason for the Amendments now on the Paper. He questioned whether the clause as framed would not carry the construction and use of crematoria to a much larger extent in Scotland than would be the case in England. Whenever the Bill was put into force it would involve a considerable amount of expense to the 862 burial boards; therefore he thought the House ought carefully to consider the amount of the pecuniary resources of the local authorities in imposing a burden of this kind upon them.
§ DR. FARQUHARSONsaid there was a very large and well-equipped crematorium in Glasgow working very successfully.
§ *MR. TOMLINSONsaid that was not his point. What he would like to ask was, what was included under the term "parish council" in Scotland, and whether a parish council or a town council was in all cases a proper body to set up a crematorium. He should hesitate very long before entrusting such a duty to parish councils in England, so many of which were very small bodies.
§ SIR THOMAS ESMONDE (Wexford, N.)said that the Irish members were opposed to the application of the Bill to Ireland, and he did not know whether it was seriously intended to move an Amendment to that effect.
§ *MR. SPEAKERsaid that the clause under discussion related only to the application of the Bill to Scotland.
§ SIR THOMAS ESMONDEsaid that if the Bill was not to be extended to Ireland the Irish representatives would offer no opposition to it.
SIR WALTER FOSTERpointed out that it was expressly provided in the Bill that it should not apply to Ireland.
§ MR. BANBURYsaid he was very glad that the Bill was going to apply to Scotland, because if the Bill was a good Bill it ought to apply to Scotland. They in England ought not to keep all the good things to themselves. His hon. friend the Member for Salford said he could not understand what would happen if this clause were passed when Clause 10 specifically declared that the Bill should not apply to Ireland or Scotland; but he had Amendments to Clause 10 to make the Bill apply to Scotland and Ireland. He fully intended to move these Amendments.
§ LORD HUGH CECILventured to suggest to his hon. friend who had moved this clause that he would be well advised 863 in withdrawing it at this stage, and it could be discussed on a re-committal of the Bill at the Third Reading. They could not deal under this clause with the national circumstances of each country. It seemed to him a very strange thing that a parish council, if it were anything like an English parish council, should he allowed to make a crematorium. From that point of view it was most desirable that the matter should be considered in a regular way in Committee, and that, therefore, this Bill should be re-committed.
§ MR. JORDAN (Fermanagh, S.), as one of the members of the Grand Committee, said that the question of applying the Bill to Scotland or Ireland had never been raised in Committee, and it was an unreasonable thing to introduce it now. On those benches they were not at all disposed to obstruct the Bill as applied to England, nor even to extending it to Scotland; but if the hon. Member for Peckham persisted with his Amendment in applying the Bill to Ireland, the Irish Members must protect themselves and oppose the whole Bill.
§ MR. BANBURYsaid he should certainly move his Amendment applying the Bill to Ireland.
§ MR. JORDANsaid it appeared to him that the hon. Gentleman's intention was to block the whole Bill.
§ THE SOLICITOR GENERAL (Sir EDWARD CARSON, Dublin University)said he represented mainly the views of the Government, which he must say, as far as the Bill was concerned, looked upon its application, at present restricted, as an extremely useful measure. The question of its application to Ireland or Scotland was never before the Committee, and he should be sorry if the Bill were amended so as to endanger its passing. He would remind hon. Members that, as to the applicability of the Bill, it was not a Bill to authorise cremation, which was perfectly legal at the present time, but to place cremation under proper rules and regulations laid down by the Home Office. Having regard to the fact that cremation was being carried on to a very large and increasing extent in England without any Government rules, as there were in the case of burials, he thought it 864 would be wise if the House allowed the Bill to pass without being hampered by the introduction of Scotland or Ireland. There might be no objection to its application to Scotland, but certainly as regarded Ireland there was no pressing case for applying it to that country. It would be most inconvenient if they entered into practically a new discussion, on new lines, on a matter which might imperil the whole Bill.
§ MR. RENSHAWsaid that, having regard to the speeches of some hon. Members, he desired to point out that the parish or town councils would be the only authorities which could be affected by the application of the Bill to Scotland. He must remind the noble Lord that parish councils in Scotland were not the small affairs he seemed to suppose. For instance, the parish of the city of Glasgow had a population of over 700,000 people.
§ *MR. TOMLINSONsaid he did not say that a parish council being the burial authority was necessarily unfit to be entrusted with the carrying out of the Bill. What he asked was whether there were not some parish councils whose pecuniary resources were not large enough to make it light for them to construct crematoria.
§ MR. MACARTNEY (Antrim, S.)said the speech of the Solicitor General was an illustration of some mistakes that were made. He intended to support the clause of his hon. friend for the extension of the Bill to Scotland, and afterwards to submit a motion for its extension to Ireland. He was very glad that the House reserved to itself the right to full consideration of the Bill after being sent down by the Grand Committee. If there was anything in the Bill that was good for England, he could not for the life of him see why it should not be extended to the United Kingdom. Taking all things into consideration, the hon. Member for Renfrewshire, in the interests of his own proposal, should withdraw his clause at this stage, for the purpose of moving it afterwards when the Bill was recommitted. It would also be necessary to have definition clauses in respect to Ireland as well as to Scotland.
§ MR. WILLIAM REDMOND (Clare, E.)said that this was a measure in which he took a very great interest, and he rose for the purpose of saying that if it was proceeded with, as sent down by the Grand Committee, it would meet with no opposition from the Irish Members. It was perfectly clear, however, that the object of the hon. Member for Peckham was not to extend the Bill to Scotland and Ireland, but to prevent the Bill being extended to England. So far as the hon. Gentleman's action went, it was refreshing to think that he had taken a new line, because, as a rule, he took steps to prevent any Bill being passed for any country whatever. If the representatives of England desired this Bill they were entitled to have it; but they from Ireland were certainly entitled to object to its application to Ireland. As to the application to Scotland, the extraordinary thing was that if there was a great desire on the part of the Scotch people that it should be extended to Scotland, that should have been voiced on this occasion, not by the representatives of Scotland, but by the representative of Peckham, which, after
§ all, whatever else might be said about it, could not claim to have the advantage of being in Scotland. It showed, at any rate, that the Scotch people were not very keen upon the subject.
§ MR. HEYWOOD JOHNSTONEthought it was very desirable that the Bill should be extended to Scotland, but he would suggest that a considerable part of the clause moved by the hon. Member for Renfrewshire was not necessary. It defined what a "Burial Authority" in Scotland was; but he contended that Clause 2 of the Bill, as it stood, contained a definition of a burial authority quite wide enough to include parish councils or town councils in Scotland if they performed the duties of a burial board in England. He suggested to his hon. friend that he would be well-advised to leave out that part of the clause. The other portions defining the Local Government Board of Scotland and the Secretary for Scotland were necessary.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 199; Noes, 87. (Division List No. 262.)
867| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F. | Coghill, Douglas Harry | Goulding, Edward Alfred |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Graham, Henry Robert |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready | Gretton, John |
| Aird, Sir John | Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick) |
| Anstruther, H. T. | Cripps, Charles Alfred | Griffith, Ellis J. |
| Archdale, Edward Mervyn | Crombie, John William | Groves, James Grimble |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) | Hain, Edward |
| Arrol, Sir William | Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) | Hall, Edward Marshall |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Haslam, Sir Alfred S. |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Cust, Henry John C. | Haslett, Sir James Horner |
| Bailey, James (Walworth) | Dalkeith, Earl of | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- |
| Bain, Colonel James Robert | Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Dalziel, James Henry | Helder, Augustus |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Henderson, Alexander |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham) | Hoare, E. Brodie (Hampstead |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Dickson, Charles Scott | Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset E. |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol | Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- | Hogg, Lindsay |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Doughty, George | Hornby, Sir Wm. Henry |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Douglas, Chas. M. (Lanark) | Houldsworth, Sir W. Henry |
| Black, Alexander William | Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Hoult, Joseph |
| Blake, Edward | Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton | Howard, J. (Mid, Tottenham) |
| Brookfield, Colonel Montagu | Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidst'ne | Hudson, George Bickersteth |
| Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan | Jackson, Rt. Hn. Wm. Lawies |
| Burns, John | Fenwick, Charles | Jacoby, James Alfred |
| Burt, Thomas | Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) | Jebb, Sir Richard Claver house |
| Butcher, John George | Fisher, William Hayes | Johnston, William (Belfast) |
| Cameron, Robert | Fletcher, Sir Henry | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. | Flynn, James Christopher | Joicey, Sir James |
| Causton, Richard Knight | Foster, Sir W. (Derby County) | Jones, David Brynm'r (Swansea |
| Cavendish, V. C W (Derbyshire) | Galloway, William Johnson | Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Garfit, William | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Gibbs, Hn A. G. H. (City of Lond | King, Sir Henry Seymour |
| Chamberlain, J Austen (Worc'r | Goddard, Daniel Ford | Kinloch, Sir John George Smyth |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. | Kitson, Sir James |
| Chapman, Edward | Gordon, Hn. J. E (Elgin & Nairn) | Law, Andrew Bonar |
| Coddington, Sir William | Gorst, Rt. Hon, Sir John Eldon | Layland-Barratt, Francis |
| Leigh, Sir Joseph | Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr |
| Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Plummer Walter R. | Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings |
| Leng, Sir John | Price, Robert John | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray |
| Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. | Randles, John S. | Wallace, Robert |
| Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Rankin, Sir James | Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. H. |
| Lough, Thomas | Rea, Russell | Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S. |
| Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Rentoul, James Alexander | Warner, Thos. Courtenay, T. |
| Lucas, Col. F. (Lowestoft) | Renwick, George | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
| Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. E. | Rickett, J. Compton | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan |
| M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Ridley, Hn M. W. (Stalybridge) | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) | Ridley, S. F. (Bethnal Green) | Whiteley, Geo. (York. W. R.) |
| Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Morgan, Hn Fred. (Monm'thsh. | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs) | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Morrell, George Herbert | Roe, Sir Thomas | Willox, Sir John Archibald |
| Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) | Ropner, Colonel Robert | Wilson, Fred W. (Norfolk, Mid. |
| Mount, William Arthur | Round, James | Wilson, Henry J. (York W. R. |
| Murray, Rt. Hn A Graham (Bute | Russell, T. W. | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert | Wilson, John (Glasgow) |
| Myers, William Henry | Simeon, Sir Barrington | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.) |
| Newdigate, Francis Alexander | Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh.) | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath |
| Nicholson, William Graham | Smith, H C (North'mb, Tynes'e | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Nicol, Donald Ninian | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Norman, Henry | Soames, Arthur Wellesley | Wrightson, Sir Thomas |
| O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Soares, Ernest J. | Wylie, Alexander |
| Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay | Spear, John Ward | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Palmer, Sir Chas. M. (Durham | Stevenson, Francis S. | |
| Palmer, George W. (Reading) | Strachey, Edward | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Renshaw and Dr. Farquharson. |
| Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) | Thomas, Able (Carmarthen E. | |
| Peel, Hn. Wm Robert Wellesley | Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.) | Gilhooly, James | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) |
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Greville, Hon. Ronald | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
| Ambrose, Robert | Gunter, Sir Robert | O'Dowd, John |
| Austin, Sir John | Hammond, John | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Hay, Hon. Claude George | O'Kelly, J. (Roscommon, N.) |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Malley, William |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. W. W. B. (Hants | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside | O'Mara, James |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.) | O'Shee, James John |
| Boland, John | Jordan, Jeremiah | Pease, Sir Joseph W. (Durham) |
| Bull, William James | Kennedy, Patrick James | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Caldwell, James | Leamy, Edmund | Rasch, Major Frederic Came |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn. J A (Glasgow | Lecky, Rt. Hon. Wm. Edw. H. | Reddy, M. |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Llewellyn, Evan Henry | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton | Lundon, W. | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Cogan, Denis J. | Maconochie, A. W. | Seely, Chas. Hilton (Lincoln) |
| Colville, John | M'Dermott, Patrick | Seton-Karr, Henry |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | M'Govern, T. | Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford) |
| Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Crean, Eugene | Malcolm, Ian | Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset |
| Cullinan, J. | Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.) | Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart |
| Delany, William | Mooney, John J. | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Morris, Hn. Martin Henry F. | Stroyan, John |
| Doogan, P. C. | Murnaghan, George | Sullivan, Donal |
| Duffy, William J. | Murphy, J. | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Wilson, Chas. Henry (Hull, W.) |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas | Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.) | Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) |
| Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J (Manc'r | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | |
| Ffrench, Peter | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Lord Hugh Cecil and Mr. Knowles. |
| Field, William | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | |
| FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose- | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | |
| Fuller, J. M. F. | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. |
§ Clause added.
§ It being after half-past Five of the clock, further proceeding on consideration, as amended (by the Standing Committee), stood adjourned.
§ Bill, as amended (by the Standing Committee), to be further considered upon Wednesday next.
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c868
- PRESTATYN WATER BILL [Lords]. 22 words