§ Resolutions read a second time.
§ Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of Class V. of the Civil Service Estimates."
§ MR. DILLONOn a point of order, I wish to submit that if these resolutions are put thus they will contain two Votes which under the rule cannot be included. An addition was made to this rule in 1898 in the following words—
Provided always that any additional Estimate for any new service or matter not included in the original Estimates for the year shall be submitted for consideration in the Committee of Supply on any day not later than two days before the Committee is closed.The First Lord of the Treasury, in introducing the rule, said that this proviso had been introduced for the purpose of meeting the views of the right hon. Member for East Wolverhampton and an hon. friend of his own, who, he thought, was the Member for King's Lynn. The objection taken by those two Members was that the closure rule, which they were now engaged in putting into operation, was never intended and ought not to be allowed to apply to any Estimate which had not been submitted for discussion in the House with the ordinary Estimates, or, at all events, two days before the closure was applied. I submit that under the wording of the proviso neither of these Votes, which are Votes raising new points and new policies, has been submitted to the Committee of Supply for consideration two days before the closure of the Committee, and that, therefore, they ought not to be, and cannot be, included in the operation of the rule to-night. The loan to the Viceroy of Wu-chang is a totally new subject, not considered by the House before, and the Treasury Chest Fund in its present shape, is, I contend, a new fund.
§ *MR. SPEAKERI do not think the hon. Member's point is a good one. It 364 does not, in the first place, arise here at all. The question I have to put is "That the House do agree to all the resolutions reported in respect of Class V." This is reported as a resolution, and therefore I am bound to put the question. The question of the hon. Member is one which should have been raised, and probably was raised in Committee in order to be decided by the Chairman. I am not a court of appeal from him, and it does not arise on the question now before the House. I am not in a position to deal with anything that does not arise on the matter before the House. I may say further that I do not think the point was a good one in Committee. According to the construction put by the hon. Member on the rule, he contends, as I understand, that the resolution should be submitted to the actual decision of the House two days before the closure—that is, on Tuesday last. In point of fact, on Wednesday the House specifically ordered that all Votes in Supply should be dealt with under this Order, and they are being so dealt with accordingly; and they were so dealt with yesterday, and that altogether does away with the effect of the proviso. The point really does not arise on the question now before the House. It arose before the Chairman of Committees, and the Chairman decided upon it, and I must say I agree with his decision.
§ MR. DILLONBy way of personal explanation I may be permitted to say that when I raised that point in Committee the Chairman adopted a somewhat unusual course, because he said he had consulted you, and he alluded to you as a court of appeal. [Cries of "No no."] I am in the recollection of the House, and I only mention it because the right hon. Gentleman said I ought to have raised the point in Committee of Supply.
§ *MR. SPEAKERI did not say anybody ought to have raised it. I said "if anybody raised it."
§ MR. DILLONI will not of course argue your ruling. I desire to say my contention was based upon the words "submitted for consideration." and I claim that these Votes were not submitted.
§ MR. SWIFT MACNEILLOn a point of order. Inasmuch as you have ruled you are not a court of appeal from the Chairman, is there any way of bringing
§ the decision of the Chairman under review except by motion?
§ *MR. SPEAKERAs the hon. Member is very well aware, there is no way of questioning the decision of the Chairman except by motion.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 202; Noes, 122. (Division List No. 451.)
367| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F. | Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidst'ne | Lowther, Rt. Hon. J. (Kent) |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Lucas, R. J. (Portsmouth) |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r | Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. E. |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Macdona, John Cumming |
| Arnold-Forster. Hugh O. | Finch, George H. | MacIver, David (Liverpool) |
| Arrol, Sir William | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Maconochie, A. W. |
| Atkinson Rt. Hn. John | Firbank, Joseph Thomas | M'Arthur, Chas. (Liverpool) |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Fisher, William Hayes | M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.). |
| Balcarres, Lord | Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon | M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire) |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey | Gardner, Ernest | Majendie, James A. H. |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds | Gardfit, William | Maple, Sir John Blundell |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. | Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. | Milton, Viscount |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Gordon, Hn J. E. (Elgin & Nairn) | Molesworth, Sir Lewis |
| Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin | Gordon, J. (Londonderry. South | Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks | Gordon, Maj Evans- (T'r H'ml'ts | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Gore. Hn. G. R. C Ormsby- (Salop | Moore, William (Antrim, N.) |
| Bignold, Arthur | Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- (Linc.) | More, Robert J. (Shropshire) |
| Bigwood, James | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon | Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow |
| Bond, Edward | Goschen, Hon. George J. | Morrell, George Herbert |
| Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- | Goulding. Edward Alfred | Morris, Hon. Martin Hy. F. |
| Bousfield, William Robert | Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) | Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) |
| Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Midd'x. | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Mount, William Arthur |
| Bullard, Sir Harry | Groves, James Grimble | Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Hain, Edward | Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) |
| Butcher, John George | Hall, Edward Marshall | Murray, Col. W. (Bath) |
| Carlile, William Walter | Hamilton, Rt. Hn Lord G. (Mid'x | Myers, William Henry |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh. | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Cayzer, Sir Chas. William | Harmsworth, R. Leicester | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Haslett, Sir James Homer | Parker, Gilbert |
| Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc. | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Peel, Hn. Wm. Robt. Wellesley |
| Chapman, Edward | Heath, James (Staffords., N. W. | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Charrington, Spencer | Henderson, Alexander | Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard |
| Clare, Octavius Leigh | Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E. | Hogg, Lindsay | Plummer, Walter R. |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Hoult, Joseph | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Houston, Robert Paterson | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready | Hozier, Hon. James Henry C. | Purvis, Robert |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Pym, C. Guy |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow | Johnston, William (Belfast) | Randles, John S. |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Johnstone, H. (Sussex) | Rankin, Sir. James |
| Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Kenyon, Hon. G. T. (Denbigh | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Lambton, Hon. Frederick W. | Reid. James (Greenock) |
| Cripps, Charles Alfred | Law, Andrew Bonar | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Lawson, John Grant | Renshaw, Charles Bine |
| Cust, Henry John C. | Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham) | Rentoul, James Alexander |
| Davenport, William Bromley- | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Renwick, George |
| Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chath'm | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalyb'dge |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Leveson-Gower. Fredk, N. S. | Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green |
| Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Ritchie. Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers | Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham) | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.) | Robinson, Brooke |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Lowe, Francis William | Ropner, Colonel Robert |
| Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart | Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) | Round, James |
| Royds, Clement Molyneux | Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk | Webb, Colonel William George |
| Rutherford, John | Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset | Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts. |
| Sackville, Col. S. G Stopford- | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) | Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne |
| Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander | Stone, Sir Benjamin | Williams, Rt. Hn J Powell (Birm. |
| Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | Strutt, Hon. Chas. Hedley | Wills, Sir Frederick |
| Seton-Karr, Henry | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier | Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks, E. R. |
| Sharpe, William Edward T. | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
| Sinclair, Louis (Romford) | Thornton, Percy M. | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath |
| Skewes-Cox, Thomas | Tollemache, Henry James | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) | Tritton, Charles Ernest | |
| Smith, H C (North'mb Tyneside | Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Smith, James Parker (Lanarks. | Valentia, Viscount | Sir William Walrond and |
| Spear, John Ward | Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter) | Mr. Anstruther. |
| Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich | Walker, Col. William Hall | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.) | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | O'Doherty, William |
| Ambrose, Robert | Hammond, John | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Harwood, George | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Dowd, John |
| Bell, Richard | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
| Boland, John | Healy, Timothy Michael | O'Kelly, J. (Roscommon, N.) |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Holland, William Henry | O'Malley, William |
| Boyle, James | Horniman, Frederick John | O'Mara, James |
| Brigg, John | Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) | O'Shanghnessy, P. J. |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Jameson, Maj. J. Eustace | O'Shee, James John |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Jones, David B. (Swansea) | Partington, Oswald |
| Burns, John | Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Burt, Thomas | Jordan, Jeremiah | Reddy, M. |
| Caldwell, James | Joyce, Michael | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Cameron, Robert | Kennedy, Patrick James | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Leamy, Edmund | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Levy, Maurice | Roche, John |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Lough, Thomas | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Cogan, Denis J. | Lundon, W. | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Colville, John | MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Crean, Eugene | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Sullivan, Donal |
| Crombie, John William | M'Dermott, Patrick | Taylor, Theodore Cooke |
| Cullinan, J. | M'Fadden, Edward | Tennant, Harold John |
| Daly, James | M'Govern, T. | Thompson, Dr. E C (Monagh'n N. |
| Dalziel, James Henry | M'Kenna, Reginald | Thomson, F. W. (Yorks, W. R.) |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Ure, Alexander |
| Delany, William | Morgan, J. L. (Carmarthen) | Wallace, Robert |
| Dillon, John | Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport) | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Moss, Samuel | Weir, James Galloway |
| Doogan, P. C. | Murnaghan, George | White, Luke (Yorks, E. R.) |
| Duffy, William J. | Murphy, John | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Elibank, Master of | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Whiteley, Geo. (Yorks. W. R.) |
| Emmott, Alfred | Nolan, Col. J. P. (Galway, N.) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Field, William | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Flynn, James Christopher | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.) | Wilson, Henry J. (Yorks, W. R.) |
| Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | |
| Gilhooly, James | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Grant, Corrie | O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.) | Sir Thomas Esmonde and |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Mr. Layland-Barratt. |