§ Considered in Committee.
§ (In the Committee.)
§ Whereas it appears by the Navy Appropriation Account for the year ended the 188 31st day of March, 1900, and the statement appended thereto, as follows, viz.:—
- (a) That the gross expenditure for certain Navy Services exceeded the estimate of such expenditure by a total sum of £1,151,718 11s. 2d., as shown in Column No. 1 of the Schedule hereto appended; while the
189 gross expenditure for other Navy Services fell short of the estimate of such expenditure by a total sum of £1,749,812 15s. 2d., as shown in Column No. 2 of the said appended Schedule, so that the gross actual expenditure for the whole of the Navy Services fell short of the gross estimated expenditure by the net sum of £598,094 4s.; - (b) That the total actual receipts in aid of the Grants for Navy Services exceeded the total estimated receipts by the sum of £205,185 6s. (id., as shown in Column No. 4 of the said appended Schedule;
- (c) That the resulting differences between the Exchequer Grants for Navy Services and the net expenditure are as follows, viz.:—
| £ | s. | d. | |
| Total Surpluses | 1,793,043 | 11 | 2 |
| Total Deficits | 929,764 | 0 | 8 |
| Net Surplus | £803,279 | 10 | 6 |
§ And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application, in reduction of the net charge on Exchequer Grants for certain Navy Services, of the whole of the sums received in excess of the estimated Appropriations-in-Aid, in respect of the same Services; and have also temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Navy Services as is necessary to cover the said total deficits on other Grants for Navy Services."
§ Motion made, and Question Proposed, "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."—(Mr. Austen Chamberlain.)
§ MR. JOHN REDMOND (Waterford)moved to report progress. He said the Committee had been engaged during the night in the performance of a work which it had never in the whole course of its long history been called upon to perform before. Without one word of comment or discussion the Committee had voted sixty-seven millions of public money, and he thought that the scandal would be still further increased if the First Lord of the Treasury forced other business on the Committee.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report progress; 190 and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. John Redmond.)
§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester, E.)I hope the hon. Gentleman will not persist in his motion. The subject which the Committee is now asked to deal with is of a purely formal character, and as far as I know has never been discussed before. It is absolutely necessary to pass this resolution in order that we may get on with our financial business before we proceed to enjoy our well-earned holiday. I hope the hon. Gentleman will not persist in his motion.
§ MR. DILLONsaid he hoped his hon. friend would persist in his motion. The honourable understanding on which the Supply rule rested was that no other business should be taken on an allotted day, and he would respectfully urge on the right hon. Gentleman that to submit the resolution under the circumstances was a breach of that understanding. If the whole of an allotted day were not devoted to Supply, and if other business were taken, then it ceased to be an allotted day. That had been recognised by the right hon. Gentleman himself, for on one occasion when a Bill was taken after Supply on an allotted day the right hon. Gentleman stated that it was taken through an oversight when he was not present, and that it would not be allowed to occur again. The understanding, which affected the convenience of many hon. members, was that an allotted day should be devoted to Supply and to Supply alone, and to take other business at that hour of the morning was a complete breach of that understanding. It might be urged that that understanding ceased when the 12 o'clock rule was suspended, but it could not be contended that on an ordinary allotted day the right hon. Gentleman would be entitled to move to report progress at 11 p.m. in order to consider other business. Was there an alteration when the 12 o'clock rule was suspended? He said not, because when the 12 o'clock rule was suspended it did not alter the spirit of the application of the Supply rule, and if the Committee sat until 5 a.m. it would still be one sitting, and on all fours with an ordinary sitting concluding at 12 o'clock. Therefore, 191 the consideration of other business on an allotted day was a distinct breach of the understanding on which the Supply rule was based. That was a strong and unanswerable argument against taking any further business that night, but even if it did not exist, surely the argument of his hon. friend the Member for Waterford was one of great force. Hon. members had been travelling through the division lobbies for several hours, mainly in a silly procession. It was said that that was the fault of the Irish members, but it was not. It was the fault of the Government, who acted in a most preposterous manner in lumping together Supply without any logical arrangement.
*THE CHAIRMANThe hon. Member is now discussing the resolution passed yesterday. He cannot go back to that.
§ MR. DILLONsaid he would not proceed in that argument further, but he would urge that the proceedings of the last throe and a quarter hours were the fault of the Government, and that, therefore, they were entitled to demand from the Government after such a performance that business should be now interrupted, and that hon. members should be allowed to retire to their beds. He thought that claim was increased by the fact that the whole proceedings of the House of Commons had been turned into ridicule in order to allow hon. members to be at Blenheim on Saturday. If that were a sufficient excuse for turning the House of Commons into a laughing stock, and revolutionising the principles on which its business had been conducted for 200 years, surely hon. members who were not going to Blenheim were entitled to some consideration. It was most irrational for the Government to ask the Committee to consider further business that night. The First Lord of the Treasury made the astounding statement that the resolution was purely formal. If the right hon. Gentleman persisted he hoped to be able to convince him in the course of a somewhat prolonged discussion that that statement was not accurate. An amount of laxity in framing the Estimates had been shown, and could not be permitted to pass without discussion. The right 192 hon. Gentleman also said that the resolution had never been discussed before, but he remembered discussing it himself, and if it were persisted in he would have to discuss it again. Hon. members were now in a far more fit state of mind to go home and rest than to enter upon a complicated discussion of the Estimates.
§ MR. DALZIEL (Kirkcaldy Burghs)said he thought the reasons given by his hon. friends for reporting progress were unanswerable. There was another reason, and that was that the First Lord of the Treasury stated that no important business would be taken after Supply. The right hon. Gentleman stated that the resolution was formal, but he differed from the right hon. Gentleman.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURIt has been treated as formal for generations.
§ MR. DALZIELsaid that respect had not been shown for what had been done for generations in other and more important matters. In his experience never had a resolution been proposed which showed such laxity in the preparation of the Estimates. Over a million sterling more than was anticipated had been expended—
§ MR. DALZIELsaid he was merely indicating how necessary it was to report progress in order that the resolution might be fully considered on another occasion. How long did the right hon. Gentleman intend to ask the Committee to sit? Hon. members were all anxious not to interfere with the general understanding as to the date of the adjournment, but after walking through the division lobbies for several hours he thought they were entitled to a rest. If that resolution were passed, would the right hon. Gentleman proceed to other business? Was there any other department which had spent a million too much in one direction and a million too little in another? Certainly on previous occasions when Supply was discussed no other business was taken. The procedure now proposed was entirely new, and he would appeal to the 193 right hon. Gentleman as to whether there was not some respect due to the Opposition and to the House of Commons. The right hon. Gentleman had done very well, and would not lose anything by falling in with the suggestion of his hon. friend.
§ *MR. CHANNING (Northamptonshire, E.)said that if it were necessary to pass the resolution in order to be able to introduce the Appropriation Bill, that it would be perfectly easy to do so by having a Saturday sitting. He had been in the House for sixteen years, and had seen Saturday sittings again and again towards the end of the session for exactly this purpose, and there was no reason why they should not have one that week, except the reason referred to by the hon. Member for East Mayo. Hon. members had been deprived of their rest, and the House had been driven in a most despotic manner, in order to give the right hon. Gentleman and his friends a pleasant holiday on Saturday. Ordinary parliamentary procedure had been put aside, and the most serious interference made with their constitutional rights by a complete changed procedure for no real reason except this, and it was discreditable and an outrage on the House of Commons that its rights and privileges should thus be ignored, and that it should thus be driven as it was, with a lash.
§ MR. COURTENAY WARNER (Staffordshire, Lichfield)said that although the resolution in previous years had been formal, that year it was not quite so formal. In past years the Treasury always protected the interests of Parliament by not allowing anything which was not in accordance with constitutional practice, but this year the Public Accounts Committee had reported that, while acknowledging the payments were necessary under existing circumstances, they considered that in future they should have parliamentary sanction, and that provision should be made for that purpose. For that and other reasons the resolution was now more important than ever it had been before, and therefore required more discussion. Accordingly its consideration should be postponed.
§ MR. WILLIAM REDMOND (Clare, E.)said that the suggestion that the resolution 194 should be postponed was a reasonable one. They had been told by the First Lord of the Treasury that the business for that night would be the voting of Supply. Supply had been voted after thirteen divisions had been taken, and surely under the circumstances the right hon. Gentleman ought to agree to adjourn. He would suggest very respectfully to the right hon. Gentleman that if the resolution could not be taken on Friday they should have a Saturday sitting for the purpose of passing it. It was most inconvenient not to have a Saturday sitting, which would obviate hon. members being kept up to any hour every night. Could the right hon. Gentleman give any valid or reasonable explanation why at this period of the session the House should not be called upon to sit next Saturday and the following Saturday? It would be much more convenient to have a Saturday sitting than to have prolonged sittings night after night. He submitted that hon. members should abandon their week-end trips, and have a Saturday sitting to transact the business which it was sought to take that night. Why should there not be a Saturday sitting? He had heard it suggested, but he could hardly believe it, that most of the Cabinet Ministers had arranged to go down to Oxford on Saturday to be entertained by a certain nobleman in the neighbourhood of that town. He was, however, sure that that entertainment would not be permitted by such a businesslike Government to stand between the House of Commons and the transaction of business at that late period of the session. He did not believe that an engagement of that kind would prevent the First Lord of the Treasury, who attended so constantly to his business, having a Saturday sitting to complete the work of the session. He had heard a story—he did not know what credence should be given to it—with reference to the proposed alternative of a Saturday sitting. It was to the effect that there had been a division in the Cabinet on the question, and that the First Lord of the Treasury said he was quite prepared to have a Saturday sitting, and to forego the pleasure of being entertained at Blenheim, but that the Colonial Secretary declared that he would not allow 195 anything to stand between him and the opportunity of being entertained by a real live duke, which the First Lord of the Treasury might have been used to all his life, but which he was not. He most earnestly protested against hon. members who were prepared to do their duty and to transact business being kept up all night and refused a Saturday sitting in order that the Colonial Secretary might be enabled to hob-nob with a duke.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURrose in his place and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
§ Question put, "That the Question be now put."
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 180; Noes, 92. (Division List No. 433.)
197| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Gardner, Ernest | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Morgan, David J. (Walthamst'w |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn) | Morrell, George Herbert |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) | Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F. |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Gordon, Maj Evans (T'rH'mlets | Mount, William Arthur |
| Arrol, Sir William | Gore, Hn. G. R. C Ormsby- (Salop | Murray, Rt. Hn A Graham (Bute |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r | Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.) | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds | Groves, James Grimble | Pemberton, John S. G. |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. | Hambro, Charles Eric | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin | Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Midd'x | Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Plummer, Walter R. |
| Bignold, Arthur | Haslett, Sir James Horner | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Brassey, Albert | Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley | Purvis, Robert |
| Bull, William James | Heath, James (Staffords., N. W.) | Randles, John S. |
| Bullard, Sir Harry | Heaton, John Henniker | Rankin, Sir James |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Hogg, Lindsay | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightsd.) | Rentoul, James Alexander |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hornby, Sir William Henry | Renwick, George |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Hoult, Joseph | Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. | Hudson, George Bickersteth) | Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green |
| Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wor'cr | Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick | Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson |
| Chapman, Edward | Johnston, William (Belfast) | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney |
| Charrington, Spencer | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh) | Ropner, Colonel Robert |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Keswick, William | Round, James |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Law, Andrew Bonar | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Lawrence, Wm, F. (Liverpool) | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow | Lawson, John Grant | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| Davenport, William Bromley- | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) | Seton-Karr, Henry |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.) | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) |
| Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) | Skewes-Cox, Thomas |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth) | Smith, H. C (North'mb. Tyneside |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. Ellison | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks) |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Macdona, John Cumming | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw. | Maconochie, A. W. | Spear, John Ward |
| Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.) | Stanley, Hon Arthur (Ormskirk- |
| Finch, George H. | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset) |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Majendie, James A. H. | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Firbank, Joseph Thomas | Maple, Sir John Blundell | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Fison, Frederick William | Melville, Beresford Valentine | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier |
| Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Flower, Ernest | Molesworth, Sir Lewis | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Forster, Henry William | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Tollemache, Henry James |
| Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.) | Moore, William (Antrim, N.) | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray |
| Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Valentia, Viscount | Wills, Sir Frederick | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Walker, Col. William Hall | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) | |
| Webb, Colonel William George | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) | Hammond, John | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Ambrose, Robert | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) |
| Asher, Alexander | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. | O'Dowd, John |
| Boland, John | Healy, Timothy Michael | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
| Boyle, James | Horniman, Frederick John | O'Kelly, J. (Roscommon, N.) |
| Brigg, John | Jameson, Major J. Eustace | O'Malley, William |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire | O'Mara, James |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Jordan, Jeremiah | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Burns, John | Joyce, Michael | O'Shee, James John |
| Caldwell, James | Kennedy, Patrick James | Partington, Oswald |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Leamy, Edmund | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Reddy, M. |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Levy, Maurice | Redmond, John E (Waterford |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Lundon, W. | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Cogan, Denis J. | MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs) |
| Colville, John | Mac Neill, John Gordon Swift | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | M'Dermott, Patrick | Sullivan, Donal |
| Crean, Eugene | M'Fadden, Edward | Taylor, Theodore Cooke |
| Cullinan, J. | M'Govern, T. | Thomas David Alfred (Merthyr) |
| Daly, James | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Thompson, Dr. E. C (Mon'ghn, N |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport) | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) | Moss, Samuel | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Delany, William | Murnaghan, George | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Dillon, John | Murphy, John | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Doogan, P. C. | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Duffy, William J. | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Williams, Osmond) Merioneth) |
| Field, William | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid | |
| Flynn, James Christopher | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan. |
| Gilhooly, James | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W) |
§ Question put accordingly. "That the Chairman do report Progress; and ask leave to sit again."
198§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 93; Noes, 176. (Division List No. 434.)
199| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Murphy, John |
| Ambrose, Robert | Flynn, James Christopher | Nannetti, Joseph P. |
| Asher, Alexander | Gilhooly, James | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Griffith, Ellis, J. | Nussey, Thomas Willans |
| Boland, John | Hammond, John | O' Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid |
| Boyle, James | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Brien, P. (Kilkenny) |
| Brigg, John | Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale- | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D. | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.). |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Healy, Timothy Michael | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Burns, John | Horniman, Frederick John | O Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) |
| Caldwell, James | Jameson, Major J. Eustace | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Jones, W. (Carnarvonshire) | O'Dowd, John |
| Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton | Jordan, Jeremiah | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Joyce, Michael | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N. |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Kennedy, Patrick James | O'Malley, William |
| Cogan, Denis J. | Leamy, Edmund | O'Mara, James |
| Colville, John | Leigh, Sir Joseph | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Levy, Maurice | O'Shee, James John |
| Crean, Eugene | Lundon, W. | Partington, Oswald |
| Cullinan, J. | MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Daly, James | M'Neill, John Gordon Swift | Reddy, M. |
| Dalziel, James Henry | M'Dermott, Patrick | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) | M'Fadden, Edward | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Delany, William | M'Govern, T. | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Dillon, John | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Doogan, P. C. | Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport) | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Duffy, William J. | Moss, Samuel | Sullivan, Donal |
| Field, William | Murnaghan, George | Taylor, Theodore Cooke |
| Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) | Wilson, Henry J. (York's., W. R. |
| Thompson, Dr E C (Monagh'n, N | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan. |
| Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer | |
| White, Luke (Yorks., E. R.) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex F. | Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | Palmer, Waiter (Salisbury) |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Pemberton, John S. G. |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.) | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard |
| Arrol, Sir William | Groves, James Grimble | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Hambro, Charles Eric | Plummer, Walter R. |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy | Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Mid'x | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. | Bryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Purvis, Robert |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W (Leeds | Haslett, Sir James Horner | Randles, John S. |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.) | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Rankin, Sir James |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. | Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Heath, James (Staffords., N. W.) | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Bignold, Arthur | Heaton, John Henniker | Rentoul, James Alexander |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter | Renwick, George |
| Brassey, Albert | Hogg, Lindsay | Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge |
| Bull, William James | Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside | Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green |
| Bullard, Sir Harry | Hornby, Sir William Henry | Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Hoult, Joseph | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire | Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick | Ropner, Colonel Robert |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Johnston, William (Belfast) | Round, James |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. | Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh) | Sackville, Col. S. G Stopford- |
| Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r | Keswick, William | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Chapman, Edward | Law, Andrew Bonar | Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles |
| Charrington, Spencer | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Lawson, John Grant | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W. |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Seaton-Karr, Henry |
| Compton, Lord Alwyne | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. | Skewes-Cox, Thomas |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) | Smith, H. C. (North'mb Tyneside |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S. | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks. |
| Davenport, William Bromley- | Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Spear, John Ward |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth | Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich |
| Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. Ellison | Stanley, Hon Arthur (Ormskirk |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Macdona, John Cumming | Stanley, Edward J. (Somerset |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Maconochie, A. W. | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Duke, Henry Edward | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.) | Strutt, Hon. Chas. Hedley |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier |
| Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r | Majendie, James A. H. | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Maple, Sir John Blundell | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Finch, George H. | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. | Tomlinson, Wm. Ed. Murray |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Melville, Beresford Valentine | Tufnell, Lieut-Col. Edward |
| Firbank, Joseph Thomas | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Valentia, Viscount |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Molesworth, Sir Lewis | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Fison, Frederick William | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Webb, Colonel William George |
| Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | Moore, William (Antrim, N.) | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
| Flower, Ernest | More, R. Jasper (Shropshire) | Wills, Sir Frederick |
| Forster, Henry William | Morgan, David J. (Walthamst'w | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R. |
| Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W. | Morrell, George Herbert | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire N |
| Gardner, Ernest | Morris, Hn. Martin Henry F. | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Mount, William Arthur | |
| Gordon, Hn. J. E (Elgin & Nairn) | Murray, Rt. Hn A Graham (Bute | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | |
| Gordon, Maj Evans- (T'rH'mlets | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
§ Original Question again proposed.
§ MR. DALZIELsaid this was a very important matter, which required some explanation. He hoped the Secretary to the Treasury would be able to explain. 200 It seemed to him that they had got to a state of things when it was almost useless having any Estimates prepared at all. He hoped they would get an assurance that greater care would be taken in future.
§ MR. O'MARA (Kilkenny, N.)said the First Lord of the Treasury had stated that the resolution was purely formal. The First Lord with his big battalions could carry any resolution he might introduce, but that was the only reason he could adduce to prove that this was purely formal. He had a number of objections to the resolution. The whole of the schedule to which the resolution alluded showed the gross carelessness with which the Estimates had been prepared, He could not understand how, under Sub-section 3 relating to contract work, there had been a miscalculation amounting to £1,489,405. The resolution now before the Committee proposed that certain amounts of money should be deviated to purposes other than those for which they were originally voted, and the First Lord said this was a purely formal matter. As an example of what was going on, he quoted a passage from the Report of the Public Accounts Committee with regard to the taking over of the Nelson Monument at Portsmouth by the Admiralty from the War Office. The contract for re-building the monument amounted to £1,091, but the contractors proved that the actual cost was £1,411, and the Admiralty applied to the Treasury for leave to pay the excess. The Treasury acceded to the application on the ground that the work was exceptional, and that it was impossible to make an accurate estimate before the work was commenced. That one small matter ought to be enough to awaken suspicion with regard to the larger matters with which this resolution dealt. The Public Accounts Committee stated in their Report that they were of opinion that such deviations should only be allowed by the Treasury when the circumstances were very exceptional, and that this case must in no way be taken as a precedent. He submitted that the resolution now before the Committee was simply an Act of Indemnity for Ministers who had allowed money to be applied to purposes for which it was not voted. If money which was voted for one service could be applied to others, it showed that the House was consistently and continuously presented with Estimates which were false. They could easily be made more accurate if trouble was taken. On martial law over £2,600 had been spent 202 beyond what was estimated, and the manner in which various other items had been expended certainly required some explanation. With reference to contracts, he desired to know how much had been spent in Government shipyards. Of course the Committee knew very well that contractors could turn out ships quite as good, if not better, than the ships turned out in the Royal shipyards, and certainly much cheaper. The Committee would like to know why £809,951 bad been diverted by the permanent officials into yards controlled by themselves instead of being expended on contracts in the ordinary way. Last year the amount diverted was £749,000, and the year before £1,084,000. The Department could have enforced penalties for the non-execution of work, but they only imposed £350 altogether, and he believed that that amount had been afterwards returned. The Committee was dealing with enormous sums of money, over which the House of Commons had no control, and it was giving enormous power to the Treasury to have absolute control of over three millions of money. The First Lord of the Treasury had suggested that that was a formal matter, but at any rate he felt very keenly about it. The House of Commons was losing its control over money matters, and whenever a similar resolution was brought forward he would not hesitate to discuss it. He proposed to omit the following words—
That the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application, in reduction of the net charge on Exchequer Grants for certain Navy Services, of the whole of the sums received in excess of the estimated Appropriations-in-Aid, in respect of the same Services; and have also temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Navy Services as is necessary to cover the said total deficits on other Grants for Navy Services.
*THE CHAIRMANThe only question I have to put is, "That the application of such sums be sanctioned." What the hon. Member proposes to omit is merely a recital.
§ MR. O'MARAsaid he would move, instead, that £100,000 be substituted for the net surplus. It was ridiculous that, having spent twenty-two days in discussing Supply last session, the views of the officials should now be brought 203 forward for the acceptance of hon. members.
§ THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN, Worcestershire, E.)said that the hon. Member who first spoke complained that the figures before the Committee showed great inaccuracies in the Estimates made by the Admiralty some two years ago. He would ask the Committee to remember that both the Admiralty and the War Office had to forecast the needs of a particular year long in advance of the year itself. Several of the Estimates were dependent on requirements which had to be learned from foreign stations, and they had to be drawn up a long time in advance. When hon. members considered that the Estimates were framed three and sometimes six months before the commencement of the financial year, it was not unnatural that there should be a divergence between what was estimated and what was required. Although the divergencies were large, were they improperly large having regard to the total of Votes, which amounted to twenty-seven and a half millions? The excess of actual over gross expenditure amounted to something under 4 per cent., which was not very high considering the difficulties under which the Estimates were framed.
§ MR. COURTENAY WARNERThey are nearly all in one item.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINThat was mainly due to the failure of the contractors to carry out the estimates framed, he thought by themselves, as to the amount of work they could turn out within a year, and also because the Admiralty were unable to put out certain orders as early as they expected, because the designs of the ships were not ready. The Admiralty found that they could make greater progress in their own yards, and they accordingly asked the Treasury to sanction the authorisation of some of the money which could not be spent for the purpose for which it was voted. They heard a great deal of dealing in affairs in a businesslike way, and the manner in which those matters were treated was nothing but businesslike. The hon. Member for South Kilkenny asked for details of the items, but he did not think he would be justified in occupying the time of the Committee 204 in giving them. The hon. member founded his request partly on the allegation that the action of the Treasury was illegal. That was a misapprehension. Parliament had decided with regard to the Navy and the Army, if there was a surplus on certain Votes and a deficit on others, that the Treasury should have power to sanction the authorisation of the surplus for the purpose of meeting the deficit, always provided that the total sum voted by the House was not exceeded. Parliament had given the Treasury the right to exercise its discretion in connection with expenditure in the Navy and the Army, and if the hon. member wished to learn how that discretion had been exercised, he would find it set out in full in the Appropriation Accounts which were annually laid before Parliament. Those accounts had been examined with very great care by the Public Accounts Committee, and he thought it would not be reasonable to ask the Committee to go into details in a resolution of that kind, which it had been customary for a long time to regard as non-contentious.
§ MR. DILLONsaid he had no intention of going into the details which had been already dealt with by his hon. friend the member for South Kilkenny, but he wished again to protest against the position taken up by the First Lord of the Treasury. He was perfectly well aware that it was competent for the Treasury in connection with Votes for the Army and Navy to sanction the application of money voted for one purpose to another purpose, but the very fact that it was necessary to pass that resolution showed that it was not a formal matter. If it were a formal matter the action of the Treasury would be left unchecked, and there would be no need for the resolution at all. He was also aware that there was a very full explanation in the Appropriation Accounts with reference to the matter, but it did not follow that because Parliament gave the Treasury certain power that the Treasury should be at liberty to play fast and loose with the Army and Navy Votes. That would be an absolute absurdity. The sums which had been overspent and underspent were enormous, and the manner in which the Treasury had acted was calculated to set at nought the 205 decisions of Parliament. There were two other points on which he grounded his claim to discuss the resolution. First of all, the miscalculation of the Admiralty in matters not connected with foreign stations had been enormous. It was preposterous that there should be an excess of £245,366 for victualling and clothing for the Navy. The number of men and boys in the Navy was well known, and not a man or boy more than the number voted could be borne. Why, then, should there have been such an enormous excess? He thought that some better explanation than that offered by the Secretary to the Treasury should be given. He observed that there was growing up a most objectionable and vicious practice of grabbing money voted for one purpose and transferring it to another purpose, instead of bringing up a Supplementary Estimate in the ordinary way. That was entirely indefensible. The First Lord of the Treasury had bottled up hon. members. Nearly 100 Votes had been passed without their being allowed to open their mouths, but, as long as human nature remained what it was, discussion would burst out in
§ another direction. If they were not to be allowed to discuss Supply in an ordinary and proper manner, they would be forced to discuss it whenever opportunity offered. Hon. members would devise novel methods for discussion if their ordinary opportunities were cut off. There was only one way to put an end to discussion on those matters, and that was to do what was done in Germany, namely, to vote three or four years Supply and adjourn Parliament for that period. So long as the House of Commons was called together for the purpose of criticising the Government, so long would some means of discussion be discovered by ingenious members, and no rules could prevent that. Those were the grounds on which he objected to the resolution being taken.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURrose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
§ Question put, "That the Question be now put."
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 163; Noes, 83. (Division List No. 435.)
207| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers | Hope, J. E. (Shef'd, Brightside |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Hornby, Sir William Henry |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Duke, Henry Edward | Hoult, Joseph |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Hudson, George Bickersteth |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw. | Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick |
| Arrol, Sir William | Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r | Johnston, William (Belfast) |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r | Finch, George H. | Kenyon, Hon. G. T. (Denbigh) |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Keswick, William |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds | Firbank, Joseph Thomas | Lawrence, W. F. (Liverpool) |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. | Fisher, William Hayes | Lawson, John Grant |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Fison, Frederick William | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry | Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie |
| Bignold, Arthur | Flower, Ernest | Leveson-Gower, F. N. S. |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry C. | Forster, Henry William | Loder, Gerald W. Erskine |
| Brassey, Albert | Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S. W.) | Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham) |
| Bullard, Sir Harry | Gardner, Ernest | Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Bristol, S. |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Godson, Sir A. Frederick | Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) |
| Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn | Loyd, Archie Kirkman |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) | Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Gordon, Maj. Evans- (T'rH'mts | Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. E. |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop | Macdona, John Cumming |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm. | Goschen, Hon. G. Joachim | Maconochie, A. W. |
| Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r) | Goulding, Edward Alfred | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) |
| Chapman, Edward | Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs. | M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E. |
| Charrington, Spencer | Greville, Hon. Ronald | M'Killop, J. (Stirlingshire) |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Groves, James Grimble | Majendie, James A. H. |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Hambro, Charles Eric | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x | Melville, Beresford Valentine |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. Wm. | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, N.) | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Molesworth, Sir Lewis |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Haslett, Sir James Horner | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley) | Moore, William (Antrim, N.) |
| Davenport, William Bromley- | Heath, J. (Staffords., N. W.) | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire |
| Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham | Heaton, John Henniker | Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Hermon-Hodge, R. Trotter | Morrell, George Herbert |
| Morris, Hn. Martin Henry F. | Ridley, S. F. (Bethnal Green) | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Mount, William Arthur | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thompson | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
| Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier |
| Nicol, Donald Ninian | Ropner, Colonel Robert | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens | Round, James | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | Royds, Clement Molyneux | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray |
| Pemberton, John S. G. | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- | Tufnell, Lieut.-Colonel Edward |
| Pierpoint, Robert | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander | Valentia, Viscount |
| Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Plummer, Walter R. | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | Webb, Colonel William George |
| Pretyman, Ernest George | Seton-Karr, Henry | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
| Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | Skewes-Cox, Thomas | Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks. E. R). |
| Purvis, Robert | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.) | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh., N). |
| Randles, John S. | Smith, H. C. (Nrth'mb. Tyneside | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Rankin, Sir James | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks) | |
| Reid, James (Greenock) | Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Remnant, James Farquharson | Spear, John Ward | |
| Renwick, George | Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich) | |
| Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge) | Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
| Ambrose, Robert | Healy, Timothy Michael | O'Dowd, John |
| Asher, Alexander | Horniman, Frederick John | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N. |
| Boland, John | Jordon, Jeremiah | O'Malley, William |
| Boyle, James | Joyce, Michael | O'Mara, James |
| Burns, John | Kennedy, Patrick James | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Caldwell, James | Leamy, Edmund | O'Shee, James John |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Leigh, Sir Joseph | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton | Levy, Maurice | Reddy, M. |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Lundon, W. | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Cogan, Denis J. | M'Dermott, Patrick | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | M'Fadden, Edward | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Crean, Eugene | M'Govern, T. | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Cullinan, J. | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Sullivan, Donal |
| Daly, James | Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport) | Taylor, Theodore Cooke |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Moss, Samuel | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr) |
| Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) | Murnaghan, George | Thompson, Dr. E C (Monagh'n N |
| Delany, William | Murphy, John | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Dillon, John | Nannetti, Joseph P. | White, Luke (Yorks, E. R.) |
| Doogan, P. C. | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Duffy, William J. | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary, Mid | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Flynn, James Christopher | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Wilson, Henry J. (Yorks, W. R.) |
| Gilhooly, James | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan. |
| Hammond, John | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | |
| Hayden, John Patrick | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) |
§ Original Question put accordingly, "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."
§ MR. O'MARAsaid that he had moved an Amendment to substitute £100,000.
§ but he did not conclude his speech by moving it. Even if he had, I would not have accepted it, because he did not indicate what items amounting to £100,000 should be sanctioned.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 167; Noes, 80. (Division List No. 436.)
211| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F | Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds | Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch). | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J (Birm. |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Bignold, Arthur | Chamberlain, J Austen (Worc'r |
| Arrol, Sir William | Blundell, Colonel Henry | Chapman, Edward |
| Asher, Alexander | Brassey, Albert | Charrington, Spencer |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Bullard, Sir Harry | Churchill, Winston Spencer |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r | Burdett-Coutts, W. | Cohen, Benjamin Louis |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Purvis, Robert |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick | Randles, John S. |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Johnston, William (Belfast) | Rankin, Sir James |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Davenport, William Bromley- | Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham | Keswick, William | Renwick, George |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) | Ridley, Hn M. W. (Stalybridge) |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Lawson, John Grant | Ridley, S. F. (Bethnal Green) |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Legge, Colonel Hon. Heneage | Ritchie, Rt. Hon Chas Thomson |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Robertson, Herbt. (Hackney) |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Leveson-Gower, Fred. N. S. | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Ropner, Col. Robert |
| Fergusson, Rt. Hn Sir J. (Manc'r | Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham) | Round, James |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Bristol, S.) | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Finch, George H. | Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale) | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Firbank, Joseph Thomas | Lucas, R. J. (Portsmouth) | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Macartney, Rt. Hon. W. G. E. | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Fison, Frederick William | Macdona, John Cumming | Seton-Karr, Henry |
| Fitzroy, Hon Edward Algernon | Maconochie, A. W. | Skewes-Cox, Thomas |
| Flower, Ernest | M'Arthur, Charles J (Liverpool) | Smith, A. H. (Hertford, East) |
| Forster, Henry William | M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.) | Smith, H C (N'th'mb., Tyneside) |
| Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire | Smith, James P. (Lanarks.) |
| Gardner, Ernest | Majendie, James A. H. | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. | Spear, John Ward |
| Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn | Melville, Beresford Valentine | Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich) |
| Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Stanley, Hon Arthur (Ormskirk |
| Gordon, Maj. E.- (Tow'rH'ml'ts | Molesworth, Sir Lewis | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Gore, Hn G R C. Ormsby- (Salop. | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
| Goschen, George Joachim | Moore, William (Antrim, N.) | Strutt, Hon. Chas. Hedley |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | More, R. Jasper (Shropshire) | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier |
| Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs. | Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Greville, Hon. Ronald | Morrell, George Herbert | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Groves, James Grimble | Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F. | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray |
| Hambro, Charles Eric | Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport) | Tufnell, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Hamilton, Rt Hon Lord G (M'd'x | Mount, William Arthur | Valentia, Viscount |
| Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert W. | Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute | Walker, Col. Wm. Hall |
| Harris, Frederick Leverton | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Warner, Thos. Courtenay T. |
| Haslett, Sir James Horner | Nicol, Donald Ninian | Webb, Colonel William George |
| Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset) |
| Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks, E. R. |
| Heath, James (Staffords., N. W. | Pemberton, John S. G. | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.) |
| Heaton, John Henniker | Pierpoint, Robert | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Hermon-Hodge, Rbt. Trotter | Platt-Higgins, Frederick | |
| Hope, J. F. (Sheffi'ld, Brightside | Plummer, Walter R. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Hornby, Sir William Henry | Pretyman, Ernest George | |
| Hoult, Joseph | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E. | Griffith, Ellis J. | O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid |
| Ambrose, Robert | Hammond, John | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) |
| Boland, John | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. |
| Boyle, James | Healy, Timothy Michael | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Burns, John | Horniman, Frederick John | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) |
| Caldwell, James | Jones, William (Carnarvonsh. | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Jordan, Jeremiah | O'Dowd, John |
| Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton | Joyce, Michael | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Kennedy, Patrick James | O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Leamy, Edmund | O'Malley, William |
| Cogan, Denis J. | Leigh, Sir Joseph | O'Mara, James |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Levy, Maurice | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Crean, Eugene | Lundon, W. | O'Shee, James John |
| Cullinan, J. | MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Daly, James | M'Dermott, Patrick | Reddy, M. |
| Dalziel, James Henry | M'Fadden, Edward | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan | M'Govern, T. | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Delany, William | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Roberts, John H. (Denbighsh. |
| Dillon, John | Moss, Samuel | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Doogan, P. C. | Murnaghan, George | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Duffy, William J | Murphy, John | Sullivan, Donal |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Taylor, Theodore Cooke |
| Flynn, James Christopher | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) |
| Gilhooly, James | Nussey, Thomas Willans |
| Thompson, Dr E C (Monagh'n, N | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan. |
| White, Luke (Yorks, E. R.) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) | |
| White, Patrick (Meath, North | Wilson, Henry J. (Yorks, W. R.) |
§ 1. Resolved, That the application of such sums be sanctioned.
| SCHEDULE. | |||||||||||||
| Number of Vote. | Navy Services, 1899–1900. Votes. | Gross Expenditure. | Appropriations in Aid. | ||||||||||
| Excesses of Actual over Estimated Gross Expenditure. | Surpluses of Estimated over Actual Gross Expenditure. | Deficiencies of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts. | Surpluses of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts. | ||||||||||
| 1. | 2. | 3. | 4. | ||||||||||
| £ | s. | d. | £ | s. | d. | £ | s. | d. | £ | s. | d. | ||
| 1 | … | Wages, etc., of Officers, Seamen, and Boys, Coast Guard, and Royal Marines | — | 29,559 | 17 | 0 | — | 5,078 | 14 | 0 | |||
| 2 | … | Victualling and Clothing for the Navy | 245,366 | 4 | 10 | — | — | 94,407 | 5 | 11 | |||
| 3 | … | Medical Establishments and Services | — | 29 | 16 | 11 | — | 1,745 | 7 | 6 | |||
| 4 | … | Martial Law | 2,601 | 17 | 8 | — | — | 40 | 17 | 2 | |||
| 5 | … | Educational Services | — | 5,001 | 12 | 6 | — | 395 | 7 | 3 | |||
| 6 | … | Scientific Services | — | 1,148 | 15 | 2 | — | 5,159 | 13 | 10 | |||
| 7 | … | Royal Naval Reserves | 42,243 | 13 | 1 | — | 95 | 3 | 3 | ||||
| 8 | … | Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, etc.: | |||||||||||
| Sec. 1 | … | Personnel | 64,419 | 0 | 2 | — | — | 240 | 9 | 11 | |||
| Sec. 2 | … | Matériel | 809,951 | 11 | 11 | — | — | 126,088 | 17 | 4 | |||
| Sec. 3 | … | Contract Work | — | 1,489,405 | 13 | 5 | — | 315 | 3 | 3 | |||
| 9 | … | Naval Armaments | — | 124,970 | 1 | 9 | — | 19,413 | 14 | 9 | |||
| 10 | … | Works, Buildings, and Repairs at Home and A broad | — | 40,256 | 2 | 7 | — | 10,865 | 15 | 8 | |||
| 11 | … | Miscellaneous Effective Services | 27,140 | 8 | 7 | — | — | 1,135 | 0 | 2 | |||
| 12 | … | Admiralty Office | — | 4,499 | 8 | 8 | — | 10 | 7 | ||||
| 13 | … | Half-pay, Reserved and Retired Pay | — | 808 | 7 | 5 | — | 17 | 3 | 6 | |||
| 14 | … | Naval and Marine Pensions, Gratuities, and Compassionate Allowances | — | 10,130 | 5 | 1 | — | 118 | 17 | 10 | |||
| 15 | … | Civil Pensions and Gratuities | — | 1,759 | 1 | 7 | — | 25 | 4 | 7 | |||
| 16 | … | Additional Naval Force for Service in Australasian Waters | 42 | 16 | 0 | — | — | 42 | 0 | 0 | |||
| Amount written off as irrecoverable | 2,196 | 12 | 0 | — | — | — | |||||||
| 1,151,718 | 11 | 2 | 1,749,812 | 15 | 2 | — | 265,185 | 6 | 6 | ||||
| Net Surplus, | £598,094 | 4 | 0 | Surplus, | £265,185 | 6 | 6 | ||||||
| Surplus surrendered to the Exchequer | £863,279 | 10 | 6 |
§ [Mr. JEFFREYS (Hampshire, N.) took the Chair.]
§ Whereas it appears by the Army Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1900, and the statement appended thereto, as follows, viz.:—
- (a) That the gross expenditure for certain Army Services exceeded the estimate of such expenditure by a total sum of £950,384 16s. 6d., as shown in Column No. 1 of the Schedule hereto appended; while the gross expenditure for other Army Services fell short of the estimate of such expenditure by a total sum of £1,634,061 5s. 2d., as shown in Column No. 2 of the said appended Schedule; so that the gross actual expenditure for the whole of the Army Services fell short of the gross estimated expenditure by the net sum of £683,676 8s. 8d.;
- (b) That the receipts in aid of certain Army Services fell short of the estimate of such receipts by a total sum of £262,092 2s. 3d., as shown in Column No. 3 of the said appended Schedule; while the receipts in aid of other Army Services exceeded the estimate of such receipts by a total sum of £130,217 16s. 10d., as shown in Column No. 4 of the said appended Schedule; so that the total actual receipts in aid of the Grants for Army Services fell short of the total estimated receipts by the net sum of £131,874 5s. 5d.;
- (c) That the resulting differences between the Exchequer Grants for Army Services and the net expenditure are as follows, viz.:—
| £ | s. | d. | |
| Total Surpluses | 1,437,483 | 17 | 3 |
| Total Deficits | 885,681 | 14 | 0 |
| Net Surplus | £551,802 | 3 | 3 |
§ And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application, in reduction of the net charge on Exchequer Grants for certain Army Services, of the whole of the sums received in excess of the estimated Appropriations-in-Aid, in respect of the same Services; and have also temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total 214 surpluses on certain Grants for Army Services as is necessary to cover the said total deficits on other Grants for Army Services.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."—(Mr. Austen Chamberlain.)
§ MR. DILLONsaid the largest item in this schedule was £491,877 for provisions, forage, and other supplies. He called attention to certain scandals in connection with the contracts for meat supplied for the Army in South Africa. He had seen a statement in the public press that the Premier of Queensland had recently returned to Brisbane after a tour in Cape Colony, and that he had stated that at the Cape the troops were paying 11d. per lb. for mutton, which could be landed on the quay at Cape Town at 3d. per lb. In these circumstances the hon. Member did not wonder at this surreptitious and backdoor method of smuggling through the contract, because it was very natural that the Government should be desirous of keeping the whole thing in the dark, and treating this resolution as a purely formal matter. The transaction took place in the year 1899, and yet in his last Report the Comptroller and Auditor General stated that he had written a letter to the War Office asking whether a refund of 2d. per lb. was sufficient, and that no reply had yet been received. What was the true inwardness of the whole of this transaction? Had the Government investigated this question in the way they investigated the question of the Hungarian horses? Fortunately they got an opportunity of raising the question of the corruption and swindling that had been going on in Hungary. Was it a fact that Australian frozen mutton was landed at Cape Town at 3d. per lb., and that the contractors sold it to the British Government at 11d.? If that was a fact, it was monstrous, and if it was not a fact there ought to be a full explanation given why the Comptroller and Auditor General had not been able to get an answer from the War Office on this matter. The hon. Member also called attention to what was said by the Comptroller and Auditor General in regard to the saddles bought for the Rhodesian force. It appeared that saddles 215 which cost from £8 to £11 were afterwards sold at 30s. a piece. That might or might not he true, but if it was true it was a scandal. The average price paid for saddles supplied to the Rhodesian force was £4 a piece higher than the price paid by the War Office for saddles bought at the same time. He found that £4,338 had been paid with the sanction of the Treasury for the maintenance of troops called in to aid the civil power during the South Wales coal strike. It was a monstrous thing that this sum should be smuggled through the House of Commons. A question so grave ought to have been brought forward for discussion in Committee of Supply. In regard to the War Office scandals, to which attention had been called, so long as this House had to pay somebody ought to be held responsible for the jobbery and corruption which had taken place. He protested against the doctrine that a resolution of the kind now before the Committee, which was practically a Bill of Indemnity, was to be treated as a matter of course.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid the hon. Gentleman who raised a question arising out of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General seemed to have forgotten that the Report was the subject of careful investigation by the public Accounts Committee, who had made a report to the House on the various matters brought before it. The hon. Gentleman asked whether any inquiry had been made by the Government into the statements contained in the Comptroller and Auditor General's Report, and the inferences he was pleased to draw from that Report. The Report was before the Public Accounts Committee, and the examination of the Army Estimates required no small portion of the time of the Committee during the present session. He would take in turn the items which the hon. Member had mentioned. There were two connected with the Imperial Yeomanry—one regarding purchase of saddlery, and the other the engagement of a ship. When the Imperial Yeomanry was formed in the first instance the War Office, as everybody knew, was working under enormous pressure, and in the early stages the Yeomanry Committee carried out all the arrangements of the Imperial 216 Yeomanry. In the matter of saddlery he doubted whether they could have made a much better bargain than they did. At the time the whole saddlery trade of the country was working under enormous pressure. The Government factories and private factories were at their busiest, and when additional orders had to be placed for the Yeomanry it was natural, and indeed inevitable, that they should be placed at a high price. In regard to the "Louisiana," the Yeomanry Committee undertook on behalf of the War Office the transport of the force, and that ship was chartered for the purpose. Later on it was felt to be desirable that the transport of the Yeomanry and all the other troops by sea should be in the hands of the Admiralty. That department had more experience of transport, and they did not shrink from the responsibility of sending out the Yeomanry by another vessel, the Yeomanry Committee having from inexperience made a mistake in the matter. In regard to the payment for troops sent to South Wales to aid the civil power, the hon. Member was not aware of the circumstances. An attempt was made to recover the cost from the county rates, but the decision of the High Court was that they were not liable, and the expense had to be met by the Government. A more serious case mentioned by the hon. Gentleman had reference to the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General in regard to the contract made in South Africa just at the outbreak of the war. When he read the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General he took as serious a view as the hon. Gentleman, but he should not have ventured without further information to scatter round so freely gross charges of corruption against officers of His Majesty's Army. This matter was carefully considered by the Public Accounts. Committee, and they had information before them which the Comptroller and Auditor General had not at the time he was obliged to present his Report to Parliament. The hon. Gentleman stated that the Comptroller and Auditor General had been obliged to complain to Parliament that he had been refused information by the War Office. What he said at the time he made his Report was that he had not received a reply to his letter, 217 but by the time he came before the Public Accounts Committee he was in possession of full information on the subject. The Committee heard the Comptroller and Auditor General and also the Accountant General of the War Office, and then at the desire of the Committee the chairman summoned the officer who made the contract, and who had in the interval returned home to England. Colonel Richardson appeared before the Committee, and they therefore had full information on the subject. What was the story? What were the facts? At the outbreak of the war they were called upon to provide supplies for very large bodies of troops in the field. It was most urgently indispensable that those supplies should be Provided, and the officer's duty was not to let anything interfere with the proper supply of food for the troops. He made a contract for either fresh meat or frozen meat. Frozen meat was cheaper than fresh meat, but it could not be supplied except when the troops were close to the railway, where the refrigerating cars could be kept. If the contractors were obliged to supply not frozen meat but live meat, they would also have to supply drivers and butchers to accompany the Army in the field, and they would have to take the risk of loss, not from capture, but from the cattle being driven about with troops on the march. Owing to the long delay which took place in the advance of the troops beyond the Modder River, it was possible for the contractors to supply refrigerated meat for a long time, and in a much greater proportion than anybody had conceived possible at the time when the contract was made, and the refrigerated meat being cheaper the contractors made a much bigger profit than they expected. He would say at that point that it was not merely in the interests of the contractors to supply refrigerated meat, but also in the interests of the Army. The evidence was that the soldiers preferred it, that it was on the whole better meat, and that by supplying refrigerated instead of fresh meat the difficulty and danger of having slaughter houses in the camps and having offal to deal with in a hot climate were avoided. Therefore the supply of refrigerated meat was in the interests of the soldiers as well as of the contractors, who, by reason of the long delay on the Modder River, 218 were able to make profits which were not believed to be possible. The contract was air in itself, and was well understood by all concerned in South Africa.
§ MR. COURTENAY WARNERasked if Colonel Richardson understood that the contract included frozen meat.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid that the Report of the Committee stated that Colonel Richardson, who made the contract, distinctly stated that it was fully understood on both sides to include frozen meat.
§ MR. O'MARAasked if the hon. Member would read paragraph four of the Report.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid he would read it in good time. The hon. Member who raised the question made a most serious charge and presented his case in a most serious aspect. He accused the Government of hiding facts from the knowledge of the House, and under the circumstances he would put the story before the Committee, and he thought it was not too much to ask that he should be allowed to tell it in his own way. It was perfectly well understood in South Africa by both sides that refrigerated meat might be supplied if it could be supplied in good condition, but that was not understood when the Papers came to the War Office, although it was proved to their satisfaction afterwards, and to the satisfaction of the Public Accounts Committee. Having regard to that misconception on the part of the War Office, and still more to the fact that they had been able to supply much larger quantities of refrigerated meat than they expected, the contractors made much larger profits than they anticipated and they offered to return 2d. per pound. The hon. Member who raised the question said that had not yet been repaid. That was a mistake. The whole of the amount had been repaid. The hon. Member was misled—he admitted several people had been misled—by the report of the Controller and Auditor-General, written admittedly at a time when he had imperfect information, and when he had not all the facts before him. The hon. Member suggested that that 2d. per pound was nothing more than the duty on imported meat, which the Cape Government had suspended owing to the outbreak of hostilities. That was 219 not so. Owing to the scarcity of food in South Africa, the duty on meat was taken off, but the duty was never charged on Government stores, and therefore the Government had the full benefit of the 2d. per pound in addition to the remission of the duty which was common to all stores imported into South Africa for His Majesty's services. He had dealt with all the points raised by the hon. Member except the fact to which he called attention, that at the time this contract was made for meat for the troops at 11d. per pound the Navy and the troops were obtaining refrigerated meat at the Cape at 5¾d. per pound. That was perfectly true. But that meat was obtained in the first place under a contract made months before war was imminent, and before there was any appearance of war. Hon. members would understand that the appearance of war naturally brought about a great change in the market for those commodities—so great a change that the scarcity of foodstuffs obliged the Cape Government to remove the duty. In the second place the meat was supplied to the Navy at Simonstown, and to the troops in the Cape Town district, while the contract at 11d. per pound was for meat to be supplied to the troops wherever the troops might be. That included the cost of carrying it up country, and also the cost of drivers and purveyors marching with the troops. The price of meat supplied up country could not be expected to be the same as that of meat supplied close to the seaboard under a contract made long before war broke out. The Public Accounts Committee—and he would be borne out in what he was about to state by the right hon. Gentleman the Chairman of that Committee—gave very close attention to the matter. The Committee came to the case with suspicion, and they felt it was a case for inquiry. The Report stated that the Committee were of opinion that Colonel Richardson was justified in making the contract, but that he should have contracted at different prices for frozen meat and fresh meat, and that the conditions of the contract should have been made more clear to the War Office. Looking at what had occurred with the wisdom which came from looking backwards instead of forwards, the Committee said that under 220 the particular circumstances of the campaign Colonel Richardson would have made a better bargain if he had taken separate prices for the two classes of meat, instead of taking a common price. But if the troops had moved as quickly as was at first expected, and if they had moved earlier away from the railway, the bargain which Colonel Richardson made would have been a very good one for the country. It was only because the troops delayed for a long time astride the railway that the contract turned out less favourable that it would have done had the two classes of meat been contracted for at different prices. In justification of Colonel Richardson's action, he might add that a contract for refrigerated meat for the troops had never been made before. It worked extremely well, and gave great satisfaction; and on the whole, acting under extremely difficult circumstances and very great responsibility, Colonel Richardson discharged the task which devolved upon him with great ability and great skill, and the troops in South Africa in the early part of the war owed much to his care and attention.
§ MR. COURTENAY WARNERsaid he wished to point out that the Vote was of a more serious character than in previous years, and that the Admiralty and the War Office had dealt with much larger sums than formerly. There was one large item of £5,000, regarding which the Public Accounts Committee stated:—
While acknowledging that the payments were necessary under existing circumstances it is considered that they should not he made in future without parliamentary sanction.There was another case in which the War Office went off in a hurry and bought seventy German guns, which turned out not to be very good. They did not come into the Estimates, but were bought out of the Transport Vote. There were likely to be more cases of a similar character in the future, and he hoped that the Treasury would be more careful.
§ MR. DILLONsaid that the Secretary to the Treasury did him an injustice in reference to the nature of the contract. The Comptroller and Auditor General stated that the contract did not mention frozen meat, that it was understood at the War Office to be for live meat, and 221 that 3,000,000 lbs. of frozen meat had been supplied under it.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid he thought the hon. Gentleman was misled by taking the statement of the Comptroller and Auditor General before he had all the facts before him. The Comptroller and Auditor General gave very full evidence before the Public Accounts Committee, and in that evidence he qualified a great deal of what he said in his statement. It was made perfectly clear to the Committee that refrigerated meat was included in the contract. The conditions of the War Office in reference to contracts for live meat only were added at the end of the contract, and that might have misled the Comptroller and Auditor General.
§ MR. DILLONsaid that the hon. Gentleman did not refer at all to what drew his attention to the matter first, namely, the statement of the Premier of Queensland, who had returned from a visit to South Africa, He said that the contractors got refrigerated meat from Australia at 3d. a lb.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid he had not seen the Premier's statement. He would point out, however, that the price of meat at Cape Town was only a small proportion of the price up country, especially if the meat had to be supplied not merely at fixed places but to wherever the troops moved.
§ [Mr. J. W. LOWTHER resumed the Chair.]
§ MR. O'MARAsaid he had the strongest objection to the resolution, as it conveyed a very false impression. There had been no saving of £551,000 as was suggested, and it was a gross abuse to submit such a resolution without any explanation. As a matter of fact, there was not any surplus at all, and he based his statement on the third report of the Public Accounts Committee. It struck him since he came into this House that the accounts were presented in a way which would disgrace any big trading company in the country. They reminded
§ him of what the lamented Barney Barnato did when he floated his bank. There was a good deal of trying to hide from members of the House all unpleasant details, and it was only by delving into the accounts that they could bring to light any of the ugly facts which would bear very little comment. Faithful soldiers of the Army for whom money had been voted had not been expended. There was at the Treasury at the credit of the Paymaster General of the Army £1,000,000, and there were unfortunate soldiers who had come home and who were now starving in the streets of London. It was a matter of common knowledge that soldiers who were entitled to medals would not go to be presented with them by the King until they received their arrears of pay. Questions on the subject had been asked in the House, and it was admitted to be a fact. He heard the Financial Secretary say that these soldiers could only be paid a quarter of the amount due, and that this would be done as a special concession. These soldiers and their families were starving because, as the Financial Secretary said, the money could not be paid until the pay sheets came from South Africa, Referring to the allowances of £1,000 of secret service money to the generals in South Africa, the hon. Member said he had no doubt this would be used for corrupting and seducing from their allegiance as many Boers as the money would corrupt. This was the only way in which the secret service money could possibly be used. He would content himself by moving the following Amendment, "to leave out after 'question.'"
§ THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN, Birmingham, W.)moved that the Question be now put.
§ Question put, "That the Question be now put."
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 148; Noes, 72. (Division List No. 437.)
223| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r | Blundell, Colonel Henry |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey | Brassey, Albert |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds | Bullard, Sir Harry |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. | Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh. |
| Arrol, Sir William | Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Bignold, Arthur | Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm. | Hermon-Hodge, R. Trotter | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc's | Hope, J. F. (Sheff'd, Brightside | Purvis, Robert |
| Chapman, Edward | Hornby, Sir William Henry | Randles, John S. |
| Charrington, Spencer | Hoult, Joseph | Rankin, Sir James |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Johnston, William (Belfast) | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Ridley, Hon M. W. (Stalybridge |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow | Kenyon, Hon. G. T. (Denbigh) | Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Keswick, William | Ritchie, Rt Hon. Chas. Thomson |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Lawson, John Grant | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| Davenport, William Bromley- | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Ropner, Colonel Robert |
| Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Round, James |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Leveson-Gower, F. N. S. | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Loder, Gerald W. Erskine | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham) | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.) | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Lucas, R. J. (Portsmouth) | Smith, H C (N'rthumb Tyn'side |
| Finch, George H. | Macartney, Rt. Hn W. G. E. | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks. |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Madona, John Cumming | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Firbank, Joseph Thomas | Maconochie, A. W. | Spear, John Ward |
| Fisher, William Hayes | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich) |
| Fitzroy, Hon. E. Algernon | M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.) | Stanley, Hon Arthur (Ormskirk |
| Flower, Ernest | M' Killop, James (Stirlingshire | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Forster, Henry William | Majendie, James A. H. | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
| Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S. W. | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn W. F. | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Gardner, Ernest | Melville, Beresford Valentine | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Godson, Sir Augustus F. | Molesworth, Sir Lewis | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray |
| Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward |
| Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) | Moore, William (Antrim, N.) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Goschen, Hon. G. Joachim | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Morgan, David J (W'lthamstow | Webb, Col. William George |
| Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs. | Morrell, George Herbert | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
| Groves, James Grimble | Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F. | Wilson, A Stanley (Yorks, E. R.) |
| Hambro, Charles Eric | Mount, William Arthur | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh., N. |
| Hamilton, Rt Hn Ld. G. (Midd'x | Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. Wm. | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | |
| Harris, Frederick Leverton | Nicol, Donald Ninian | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Haslett, Sir James Horner | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens | |
| Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley) | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | |
| Heath, J. (Staffords., N. W.) | Pierpoint, Robert | |
| Heaton, John Henniker | Plummer, Walter R. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.) | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) |
| Ambrose, Robert | Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Healy, Timothy Michael | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) |
| Boland, John | Horniman, Frederick John | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
| Boyle, James | Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) | O'Dowd, John |
| Burns, John | Jordan, Jeremiah | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
| Caldwell, James | Joyce, Michael | O'Kelly, J. (Roscommon, N.) |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Kennedy, Patrick James | O'Malley, William |
| Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton | Leamy, Edmund | O'Mara, James |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Levy, Maurice | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Cogan, Denis J. | Lundon, W. | O'Shee, James John |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Crean, Eugene | M'Dermott, Patrick | Reddy, M. |
| Cullinan, J. | M'Fadden, Edward | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Daly, James | M'Govern, T. | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Delany, William | Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Dillon, John | Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport) | Sullivan, Donal |
| Doogan, P. C. | Moss, Samuel | Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) |
| Duffy, William J. | Murnaghan, George | White, Luke (Yorks, E. R.) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Murphy, John | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Flynn, James Christopher | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Gilhooly, James | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | Wilson, Henry J (Yorks, W. R.) |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Nussey, Thomas Willans | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan. |
| Hammond, John | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid) | |
| Hayden, John Patrick | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
§ Question put accordingly, "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."
225§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 153; Noes, 67. (Division List No. 438.)
227| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F. | Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) | Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Goschen, Hon. George J. | Mount, William Arthur |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute) |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.) | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Groves, James Grimble | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Arrol, Sir William | Hambro, Charles Eric | Nussey, Thomas Willans |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Mid'x) | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r) | Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robt. Wm. | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds | Haslett, Sir James Horner | Plummer, Walter R. |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin | Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir A. D. | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col, Edward |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley) | Purvis, Robert |
| Bignold, Arthur | Heath, Jas. (Staffords., N. W.) | Randles, John S. |
| Blundell, Col. Henry | Heaton, John Henniker | Rankin, Sir James |
| Brassey, Albert | Hermon-Hodge, Robert T. | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Bullard; Sir Harry | Hope, J. F. (Sh'ffi'ld, Brightside) | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Hornby, Sir William Henry | Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge |
| Cavendish, V C W. (Derbyshire | Horniman, Frederick John | Ridley, S. F. (Bethnal Green) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hoult, Joseph | Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. T. |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm. | Johnston, William (Belfast) | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| Chamberlain, J Austen (Worc'r | Johnstone, H. (Sussex) | Ropner, Colonel Robert |
| Chapman, Edward | Kenyon, Hon. G. T. (Denbigh | Round, James |
| Charrington, Spencer | Keswick, William | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Lawrence, W. F. (Liverpool) | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Lawson, John Grant | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alex. |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W. |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Leveson-Gower, Fredk. N. S. | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.) |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Smith, H C (N'rth'mb, Tyneside |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham) | Smith, James P. (Lanarks.) |
| Davenport, W. Bromley- | Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.) | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand |
| Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham) | Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) | Spear, John Ward |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich |
| Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Lucas, R. J. (Portsmouth) | Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk) |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. E. | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) |
| Doxford, Sir Wm. Theodore | Macdona, John Cumming | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | Maconochie, A. W. | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.) | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray |
| Finch, George H. | M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire) | Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Majendie, James A. H. | Valentia, Viscount |
| Firbank, Joseph Thomas | Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Fisher William Hayes | Melville, Beresford Valentine | Webb, Col. William George |
| Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | Molesworth, Sir Lewis | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
| Flower, Ernest | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks, E. R. |
| Forster, Henry William | Moore, William (Antrim, N.) | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.) |
| Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S. W. | More, Robt. J. (Shropshire) | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Gardner, Ernest | Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Godson, Sir Augustus Fred. | Morrell, George Herbert | |
| Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn) | Morris, Hon. Martin H. F. |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E. | Doogan, P. C. | M'Dermott, Patrick |
| Ambrose, Robert | Duffy, William J. | M'Fadden, Edward |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Flavin, Michael Joseph | M'Govern, T. |
| Boland, John | Flynn, James Christopher | Mansfield, Horace Rendall |
| Boyle, James | Gilhooby, James | Moss, Samuel |
| Burns, John | Griffith, Ellis J. | Murnaghan, George |
| Caldwell, James | Hammond, John | Murphy, John |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Hayden, John Patrick | Nannetti, Joseph P. |
| Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton | Healy, Timothy Michael | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.) | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.) |
| Cogan, Denis J. | Jordan, Jeremiah | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Joyce, Michael | O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) |
| Crean, Eugene | Kennedy, Patrick James | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. |
| Cullinan, J. | Leamy, Edmund | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) |
| Daly, James | Levy, Maurice | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
| Delany, William | Lundon, W. | O'Dowd, John |
| Dillon, John | MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A. | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
| O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| O'Malley, William | Redmond, William (Clare) | Wilson, Henry J. (Yorks, W. R.) |
| O'Mara, James | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel | |
| O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Sullivan, Donal | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan. |
| O'Shee, James John | Thomas, David Alf. (Merthyr) | |
| Power, Patrick Joseph | White, Luke (Yorks, E. R.) | |
| Reddy, M. | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
§ 2. Resolved, That the application of such sums be sanctioned.
| SCHEDULE. | |||||||||||||
| No. of Vote. | Army Services, 1899–1900. Votes. | Gross Expenditure. | Appropriations in Aid. | ||||||||||
| Excesses of Actual over Estimated Gross Expenditure. | Surpluses of Estimated over Actual Gross Expenditure. | Deficiencies of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts. | Surpluses of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts. | ||||||||||
| 1. | 2. | 3. | 4. | ||||||||||
| £ | s. | d. | £ | s. | d. | £ | s. | d. | £ | s. | d. | ||
| 1 | Pay, etc., of Army (General Staff, Regiments, Reserve, and Departments) | — | 1,086,432 | 15 | 4 | 129,050 | 6 | 7 | — | ||||
| 2 | Medical Establishments: Pay, etc. | 29,480 | 6 | 5 | — | — | 425 | 0 | 10 | ||||
| 3 | Militia: Pay, Bounty, etc. | — | 250,294 | 11 | 1 | — | 2,916 | 8 | 5 | ||||
| 4 | Yeomanry Cavalry: Pay and Allowances | — | 4,661 | 5 | 5 | 3 | 0 | 0 | — | ||||
| 5 | Volunteer Corps: Pay and Allowances | — | 10,664 | 15 | 2 | — | 736 | 15 | 8 | ||||
| 6 | Transport and Remounts | 110,470 | 9 | 5 | — | — | 38,237 | 8 | 3 | ||||
| 7 | Provisions, Forage, and other Supplies | 491,877 | 10 | 11 | — | — | 58,983 | 5 | 11 | ||||
| 8 | Clothing Establishments and Services | 88,006 | 0 | 11 | — | 58,404 | 3 | 6 | — | ||||
| 9 | Warlike and other Stores: Supply and Repair | 201,370 | 16 | 4 | — | — | 770 | 3 | 2 | ||||
| 10 | Works, Buildings, and Repairs: Cost, including Staff for Engineer Services | — | 224,270 | 4 | 7 | 51,015 | 13 | 1 | — | ||||
| 11 | Establishments for Military Education | 1,411 | 12 | 3 | — | — | 3,729 | 11 | 7 | ||||
| 12 | Miscellaneous Effective Services | 23,058 | 8 | 5 | — | — | 24,197 | 15 | 10 | ||||
| 13 | War Office: Salaries and Miscellaneous Charges | 3,308 | 10 | 9 | — | — | 130 | 1 | 0 | ||||
| 14 | Non-effective Charges for Officers, etc. | — | 54,553 | 3 | 6 | 20,962 | 4 | 6 | — | ||||
| 15 | Non-effective Charges for Men, etc. | — | 3,184 | 10 | 1 | 2,656 | 14 | 7 | — | ||||
| 16 | Superannuation, Compensation, and Compassion ate Allowances | 643 | 2 | 8 | — | — | 91 | 6 | 2 | ||||
| Balances irrecoverable | 751 | 18 | 5 | — | — | — | |||||||
| 950,384 | 16 | 6 | 1,634,06 | 5 | 2 | 262,092 | 2 | 3 | 130,217 | 16 | 10 | ||
| Net Surplus, | £683,676 | 8 | 8 | Net Deficit, | £131,874 | 5 | 5 | ||||||
| Surplus surrendered to the Exchequer | £551,802 | 3 | 3 |
§ Question put, "That the Chairman do report these Resolutions to the House."
230§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 147; Noes, 70. (Division List No. 439.)
231| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F. | Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn | Murray, Gluts. J. (Coventry) |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) | |
| Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel | Goschen, Hon. George Joachim | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Goulding, Edward Alfred | |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs. | O'Neill, Hon. Robt. Torrens |
| Arrol, Sir William | Groves, James Grimble | |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) | |
| Hambro, Charles Eric | Pierpoint, Robert | |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r | Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Mid'x | Hummer, Walter R. |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. | Haslett, Sir James Horner | Purvis, Robert |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin | Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley | |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry C. | Heath, James (Staffords. N. W.) | Randles, John S. |
| Bignold, Arthur | Heaton, John Henniker | Rankin, Sir James |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter | Reid, James (Greenock) |
| Brassey, Albert | Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Bullard, Sir Harry | Hornby, Sir William Henry | Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge) |
| Hoult, Joseph | Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green | |
| Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) | Hudson, George Bickersteth | Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) | |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Johnston, William (Belfast) | Rolleston, Sir John F. L. |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Ropner, Colonel Robert |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. | Round, James | |
| Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r | Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh | Royds, Clement Molyneux |
| (Chapman, Edward | Keswick, William | |
| Charrington, Spencer | Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- | |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Lawson, John Grant | Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander |
| Cohen, Benjamin Louis | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow | Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S. | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Smith, H. C. (North'mb. Tyn'sd. |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham | Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks) |
| Crossley, Sir Savile | Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristo S. | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) | Spear, John Ward | |
| Davenport, William Bromley- | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich) |
| Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham | Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth | Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk) |
| Dickson, Charles Scott | Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) | |
| Dasraeli, Coningsby Ralph | Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Ellison | Strutt, Hon. Chas. Hedley |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers | Macdona, John Cumming | |
| Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Maconochie, A. W. | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin | M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray |
| M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.) | Tufnell, Lt.-Col. Edward | |
| Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) | |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Majendie, James A. H. | Valentia, Viscount |
| Finch, George H. | Massey Mainwaring, Hn. W. F | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Melville, Beresford Valentine | Webb, Col. William George |
| Firbank, Joseph Thomas | Molesworth, Sir Lewis | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Moon, Edward Robert Pacy | Wilson, A Stanley (Yorks, E. R.) |
| Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon | Moore, William (Antrim, N.) | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.) |
| Flower, Ernest | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Forster, Henry William | Morgan, David J (Walthamst'w | |
| Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S W | Morrell, George Herbert | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F. | ||
| Gardner, Ernest | Mount, William Arthur | |
| Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick | Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) | Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Boyle, James |
| Ambrose, Robert | Boland, John | Burns, John |
| Caldwell, James | Jones, William (Carnarvons.) | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) |
| Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) | Jordan, Jeremiah | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
| Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton | Joyce, Michael | O Dowd, John |
| Clancy, John Joseph | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | |
| Cogan, Denis J. | Kennedy, Patrick James | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon N |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | O'Malley, William | |
| Crean, Eugene | Leamy, Edmund | O'Mara, James |
| Cullinan, J. | Levy, Maurice | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Lundon, W. | O'Shee, James John | |
| Daly, James | ||
| Delany, William | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Dillon, John | M'Dermott, Patrick | |
| Doogan, P. C. | M'Fadden, Edward | Reddy, M. |
| Duffy, William J. | M'Govern, T. | Redmond, J. E. (Waterford) |
| Mansfield, Horace Rendall | Redmond, William (Clare) | |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport) | |
| Flynn, James Christopher | Moss, Samuel | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel |
| Murnaghan, George | Sullivan, Donal | |
| Gilhooly, James | Murphy, John | |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) | |
| Nannetti, Joseph P. | ||
| Hammond, John | Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) | White, Luke (Yorks, E. R.) |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Nussey, Thomas Willans | White, Patrick (Meath, N.) |
| Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) | |
| Healy, Timothy Michael | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid) | |
| Horniman, Frederick John | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan. |
| O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) | ||
| O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. |
§ Resolutions to be reported to-morrow.