§ Considered in Committee.
§ (In the Committee.)
§ [Mr. J. W. Lowther (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]
§ Clause 1:—
§ *MR. JEFFREYS (Hampshire, N.)moved on behalf of his hon. friend the Member for Ayr Burghs to insert in page 1, line 8, after "required," the words "or in respect of a qualification by which he votes as a lodger." The word "lodger" was mentioned in the Act of 1891, though it was omitted from the present Bill.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 1, line 8, after 'required,' to insert the words 'or in respect of a qualification by which he votes as a lodger.' "—(Mr. Jeffreys.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir RICHARD WEBSTER,) Isle of WightI can assure my hon. friend that these words are not necessary, and that it would be undesirable to insert them. We of course intend that this Bill shall apply to the lodger franchise, assuming the lodgings are kept on. It has been brought to my attention that in order to secure the lodger franchise under the existing law a claim must be sent in signed by the lodger. In order to meet the difficulty of the absence of the lodger, I am prepared to accept an Amendment that the lodger's declaration may be signed by the landlord. It would be more convenient to do it in that way.
§ COLONEL DENNY (Kilmarnock Burghs)asked if a lodger who left the country as a Volunteer was disqualified.
§ SIR RICHARD WEBSTERIt is absolutely necessary that he should maintain his qualification, but he will not be subject to the disadvantage attaching to more than four months absence.
§ *COLONEL WELBY (Taunton)asked whether special exceptions could not be made in these cases, because it was not probable that the lodgings would be kept on. He was perfectly sure that the Government had no intention that civil penalties should attach to the Volunteers, but it would be very hard if lodgers were to be disenfranchised.
§ MR. BARTLEY (Islington, N.)said he could conceive a case in which the landlord might be troublesome, and would not sign the claim.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Another Amendment made.
§ *MR. JEFFREYSmoved in page 1, line 9, after "of," to insert "the permanent department and medical staff of the Army." Many of the medical officers, although not ordered, went of their own accord to South Africa, and had rendered the very greatest service. If they were absent more than four months they would probably lose their votes, and he thought the Committee would wish them included in the Bill. For the same reason he moved that the general staff should be included. The Bill now only included Reserve Militia, Yeomanry, and Volunteers, and he thought the permanent department and medical staff should also be included.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 1, line 9, after the word 'of,' to insert the words 'the permanent department and medical staff of the Army.' "—(Mr. Jeffreys.)
§ Question proposed, 'That those words be there inserted."
1021§ SIR RICHARD WEBSTERFor the reason stated by the Home Secretary on the Second Reading of this Bill, it is impossible to accept this Amendment. My hon. friend wishes that officers on the permanent staff and the medical staff as distinguished from other Army officers get the benefit of this Bill. If we assented to that we should have no answer to the requests which would be made to us on behalf of other classes of officers who have gone out in obedience to orders. We have to draw a distinction between those who by the terms of their profession are liable to foreign service and those who are not. The object of the Bill is to remove the electoral disabilities under which Reservists and Volunteers might otherwise labour owing to their absence in South Africa. I do not say it would not be possible to include certain special classes, but if we accept this Amendment we cannot resist the claims of others, and we are therefore obliged to oppose it.
§ MR. BROADHURST (Leicester)said he would appeal to the Government to include war correspondents in the Bill.
§ MR. MCKENNA (Monmouthshire, N.)asked if war correspondents would be disqualified.
§ SIR RICHARD WEBSTERWar correspondents are not in the service of the Crown, and therefore cannot be included in the Bill.
§ *COLONEL WELBYsaid there was a very great difference between the officers that would be included by the Amendment and ordinary regimental officers. Officers on the general staff had more or less permanent appointments, and were not on the roster for foreign service, and if exceptional circumstances had not arisen they would be resident in the country now. The regimental officer, on the contrary, always went with his regiment. He hoped the Attorney General would be able to accept the Amendment.
§ *MR. JEFFREYSsaid that after the Attorney General's statement he would not press his Amendment to a division, because he had not the slightest chance of carrying it, though he thought it rather hard on the classes mentioned. He begged to withdraw the Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 1, line 12, after the word 'not,' to insert the words 'In the case of a person entitled to claim the lodger franchise being so absent, his claim may be signed on his behalf by his landlord.' "—(Mr. Herbert Robertson.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
§ SIR RICHARD WEBSTERI think it is abundantly clear that lodgers should be included in the Bill, and I propose to accept the Amendment. But the question has been raised as to whether it is advisable to insert the word "landlord." The reason suggested to me was that there could then be no doubt that the declaration would be made by a person who knew that the tenancy or lodging was still existing. I think there is no possibility of landlords being unwilling to tell the truth in the matter, and although it has been suggested that we might make the provision more elastic by saying that the declaration may be signed by some members of the family I think we had better leave it as it is. We cannot take the wife, because it is not the universal case that lodgers have wives.
§ MR. BARTLEYsaid he could give a case in his own district where he was quite sure the landlord would not sign unless the lodger was of a particular political complexion. The Amendment would give the landlord a veto on the lodger's vote, which was a great objection. He hoped the Attorney General would make the provision more elastic.
§ MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN (Kilkenny)said they had instances in Ireland where not only the landlord but the servant girl signed, with the result that a number of babies were placed on the register, and through the instrumentality of their votes the Government obtained a seat which they otherwise would not have won. He hoped the Attorney General would deal with England and Ireland alike, and that the same privileges would be given to servant girls in England as in Ireland.
§ *MR. JEFFREYSasked whether the Attorney General would not insert after "landlord" the words "magistrate or minister of religion."
§ MR. MCKENNAsaid that the party agents on either side would be the only persons who would care whether lodgers had votes or not. Why not let them sign the declaration?
§ MR. JOHN BURNS (Battersea)did not think a registration agent more reliable than a landlord. He did without the one, and he wished he could dispense with the other.
§ SIR RICHARD WEBSTERsaid he should personally have no objection to a magistrate being the person authorised to sign the declaration.
§ Another Amendment made.
§ MR. MCKENNAmoved the insertion of a clause for the purpose of satisfying the demand that Volunteers should not be disqualified by going abroad to serve the country. On the day that a Volunteer left home it might be assumed that he was in actual occupation either of a dwelling-house or lodging, but from the moment of leaving he might be regarded as having ceased occupation of the house or lodging. If he kept up occupation the Bill would give him the vote when he
§ returned, but if he gave up occupation he would lose his vote. The hon. Member said his Amendment was very simple in form, and merely declared that Volunteers were entitled to be deemed to have remained in occupation of such qualifying premises as they were in occupation of at the time of their departure abroad.
§ SIR RICHARD WEBSTERsaid it would probably be convenient if he now answered the hon. Member. There might be a small class, he did not admit that it was a large one, who had not got the twelve months qualification by the time they left. It was not intended to put those people on the register. What was intended was to preserve to everybody who was on the register the right to continue on the register which they would otherwise lose by going away for a longer period than four months. He could not accept the Amendment, which would make the Bill a qualifying or registration measure.
§ Question put, "That the clause as amended stand part of the Bill."
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 155; Noes, 47. (Division List No. 71.)
1025| AYES. | ||
| Allsopp, Hon. George | Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Edw. T. D. | Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon |
| Archdale, Edward Mervyn | Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Goschen, George J. (Sussex) |
| Arnold, Alfred | Cubitt, Hon. Henry | Green, Walford D(Wednesbury |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Curzon, Viscount | Gurdon, Sir William Brampton |
| Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John | Dalrymple, Sir Charles | Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George |
| Balcarres, Lord | Denny, Colonel | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r) | Dickinson, Robert Edmond | Hardy, Laurence |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- | Heath, James |
| Bartley, George C. T. | Dorington, Sir John Edward | Helder, Augustus |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Hickman, Sir Alfred |
| Beckett, Ernest William | Doxford, Sir William Theodore | Howell, William Tudor |
| Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe | Faber George Denison | Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice- |
| Bethell, Commander | Fardell, Sir T. George | Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick |
| Bill, Charles | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Jenkins, Sir John Jones |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Furgusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r | Jessell, Captain H. Merton |
| Bond, Edward | Finch, George H. | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) |
| Brassey, Albert | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Johnston, William (Belfast) |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Firbank, Joseph Thomas | Kenyon, James |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbvsh.) | Fisher, William Hayes | Kimber, Henry |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) | Fletcher, Sir Henry | Lafone, Alfred |
| Chamberlain, Austen (Worc'r | Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) | Lawrence, Sir E. Durning(Corn |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Fry, Lewis | Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) |
| Charrington, Spencer | Galloway, William Johnson | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Garfit, William | Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Gedge, Sydney | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine |
| Colomb, Sir J. Charles Ready | Gibbs, Hon. Vicary(St. Albans) | Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham |
| Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth) | Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. | Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Liverpool) |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Goldsworthy, Major-General | Lonsdale, John Brownlee |
| Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. | Gordon, Hon. John Edward | Lowe, Francis William |
| Lowles, John | Pierpoint, Robert | Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier |
| Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Pilkington, R. (Lancs, Newton | Talbot, Rt. Hn J. G. (Oxf'd Univ. |
| Lucas-Shadwell, William | Platt-Higgins, Frederick | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Macartney, W. G. Ellison | Plunkett, Rt. Hon. H. Curzon | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray |
| Macdona, John Cumming | Pollock, Harry Frederick | Warr, Augustus Frederick |
| MacIver, David (Liverpool) | Price, Robert John | Webster, Sir Richard E. |
| M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | Welby, Lieut.-Colonel A. C. E. |
| M'Iver, Sir L.(Edinburgh, W.) | Purvis, Robert | Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts. |
| M'Killop, James | Rasch, Major Frederic Carne | Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- |
| Martin, Richard Biddulph | Rentoul, James Alexander | Whiteley, H. (Ashton-under-L. |
| Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. | Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W. | Whitmore, Charles Algernon |
| Middlemore, Jn. Throgmorton | Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. T. | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset) |
| Milward, Colonel Victor | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) | Williams, Jsph. Powell-(Birm. |
| Monckton, Edward Philip | Round, James | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Montagu, Hon. J. S. (Hants.) | Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) | Wilson, Frederick W.(Norfolk) |
| Morgan, Hon. F. (Monm'hsh) | Rutherford, John | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Morrell, George Herbert | Seely, Charles Hilton | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.) |
| Muntz, Philip A. | Sharpe, William Edward T. | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath |
| Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute | Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Nicol, Donald Ninian | Simeon, Sir Barrington | Wyndham, George |
| Parkes, Ebenezer | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) | |
| Pease, H. Pike (Darlington) | Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Penn, John | Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart | Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. |
| Phillpotts, Captain Arthur | Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley | |
| NOES. | ||
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Fenwick, Charles | Redmond, J. E. (Waterford) |
| Barlow, John Emmott | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Richardson, J. (Durham, S. E.) |
| Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. | Goddard, Daniel Ford | Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) |
| Billson, Alfred | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire | Robson, William Snowdon |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Kilbride, Denis | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'land | Souttar, Robinson |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Lloyd-George, David | Steadman, William Charles |
| Burns, John | Macaleese, Daniel | Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) |
| Caldwell, James | Maddison, Fred. | Tanner, Charles Kearns |
| Carmichael, Sir T. D. Gibson- | Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport) | Thomas, D. A. (Merthyr) |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Crilly, Daniel | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Ure, Alexander |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | |
| Doogan, P. C. | Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) | Randell, David | Mr. M'Kenna and Mr. Courtenay Warner. |
| Duckworth, James | Reckitt, Harold James |
§ Clause 2 agreed to.
§ THE SECRETARY OF STATE OF THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir M. W. WHITE RIDLEY)moved a new clause with reference to the duration of the Act. It declares that the measure shall be temporary and applicable to the present war only.
§
New clause added:—
3. This Act shall apply only to absence during the continuance of the present war in South Africa.
§ Bill reported, as amended; to be considered upon Monday next.