§ Order for Second Reading read.
§ MR. J. H. JOHNSTONE (Sussex, Horsham)I need detain the House with but few observations in moving the Second Reading of this Bill. This is the only country in Europe where women, without being qualified by skill or good character, are allowed to practise as midwives. The present Bill has been carefully thought out, and its promoters have been aided by the advice of the General Medical Council. It provides for the establishment of a General Midwives Board, largely composed of medical men but partly composed of laymen. This Board will frame rules for the examination of women wishing to follow the profession of midwife; and there will also be provision for the registering of women now in practice, who can produce evidence of good character. Under the Bill no woman will be allowed to practise for gain without a certificate which will be granted and issued by the Board after examination of the candidate, With this certificate there is coupled the further provision that before a woman commences to practise in any district of the country she must take out a licence from the local supervising authority. The county council is recommended as the supervising authority under the statute, with power, if need be, to delegate that authority to the sanitary authority. The general effect of this will be that some satisfactory proof of training and capacity should be given before a woman is allowed to take up the practice of midwifery, and that when she does begin her practice 536 there shall be control, wherever she is carrying on her practice, of the supervising authority. I know that I should not be justified in detaining the House further, but I wish you to consider what are the sufferings of the poor women in England from the treatment of rough, ignorant, and in many cases dissolute women, of whose former career they know nothing, and of whose qualifications they know nothing. Those who have been about among the poor will know the immense amount of suffering caused to the women and children by unskilled nursing. I dare say I shall be told that the poor law is strong enough. I have not been a member of a board of guardians for many years without knowing that this is not the case. When you consider the number of women who require attention of this kind, I hope the House will not reject this Bill lightly or unadvisedly, but will give it a Second Reading on this occasion, and allow its defects, if it has defects, to be considered in Committee. If it can be improved and put in a more workable shape, let that be done in Committee.
§ *MR. SCHWANN (Manchester, N.)I would ask the House to give this Bill a Second Reading. It has been before the House a great number of years, and it has had the support of several Select Committees. I believe the House will be doing its duty and attending to a great need if it gives this Bill a Second Reading. For some years the medical profession was against any Bill of this nature being introduced into this House, but I am glad to say that now there are unmistakable signs that the opinion of a great number of medical men on this subject has changed. Those connected with large working-class districts know how much suffering arises from midwives who have not had adequate medical instruction. Their medical instruction is provided for in the Bill. We have carried out as far as we were able the representations of the Privy Council, and leading medical bodies, as to what is desirable, and we have removed those obstacles which might stand in the way of the support of the public and of the medical profession. The right of friendly neighbours to assist in cases of labour has been preserved. We all know that in country districts there may be cases where a midwife is not within reasonable distance, and 537 where a friendly neighbour has to be called in to give assistance. That has been provided for, and has removed much opposition.
§ Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
§ MR. T. P. O'CONNOR (Liverpool, Scotland)Instead of being fully agreed, I certainly mean to oppose this Bill as vehemently and persistently as I can, and I believe I will get the support of some hon. Members in the House, if not a majority. Let me acknowledge at once the persistency of the hon. Gentleman who has brought forward the Bill. He has kept me in attendance at this House while he has been attempting—I will not say to smuggle through the measure, for I recognise in him an honourable as well as an honest antagonist—but while he has been endeavouring to get this Bill through in all kinds of unseasonable hours, and without discussion. You have here an admitted evil, and immediately some ardent philanthropic reformer, conscious of the evil and deeply and honourably moved by it, brings before this House a remedy which at first sight may seem good, but which you will find on examination will aggravate the evil with which it proposes to deal. Nobody denies that there is a great deal of bad nursing in the country, but there is also a great deal of good nursing as well. I altogether take exception to the picture drawn by the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Johnstone), and by the Gentleman who seconded the Bill, of the way in which women are attended to in their confinements. What happens in country districts is this. A woman is called in to a confinement as an attendant. But a confinement is a natural process, and usually is effected successfully. The picture drawn of the drunken, incompetent nurse is entirely the result of an imagination inflamed by philanthropic feeling.
§ MR. J. H. JOHNSTONEI have known two cases this winter in my own small village, in which from no lack of sympathy, but on account of unskilled assistance on the part of friendly neighbours, confinements have been attended by most sad results.
§ MR. T. P. O'CONNORIf this Bill passes you will have the sad results 538 multiplied by ten. If the Bill would diminish by 5 or 10 per cent. the sad results—to use the language of my hon. friend—then I would support it, and I would say it is a step in the right direction, but my contention is that it is a step in the wrong direction, that it is retrogressive and not progressive, and that it will accentuate and not retard the evil of which you complain. The hon. Member said there was a change in medical opinion in regard to the Bill. What is the proof of that statement? I have in my hand a letter from the editor of the Lancet—and everybody knows that that journal is the most influential authority of the medical profession—in which he states that a circular letter was issued to the medical profession in England with a view to ascertaining the opinion of the profession on the Bill. He received 7,250 replies, and an analysis of the answers shows that 1,547 medical men are in favour of the Bill, 640 are indifferent, while the remaining 5,000 odd are opposed to the measure. I think I am entitled to give that as a specimen of the kind of argument by which this Bill is backed up. What does the Bill propose to do? In regard to the subject of midwifery, medical education has made enormous progress during the past few years. There was a time when a midwifery degree could be obtained by any medical man. The midwifery form of degree was the last that a medical man got. But medical men have seen that it is most important to take up this part of the medical profession with proper training, and the result is that to-day a man is not entitled to take up midwifery practice unless he has a medical and surgical certificate. The proposal of my hon. friend is that women are to have three months training for the work for which a medical man requires five years.
§ MR. J. H. JOHNSTONEThere is nothing about three months training in the Bill. The rules are to be approved by the General Medical Council.
§ MR. T. P. O'CONNORI have not read the Bill for a few days, but I understand that the Bill will only insist on women having three months training. What I maintain is this: if you are going to entitle a woman to act, not merely as a midwife, but to act as a fully trained medical practitioner—["No, no!"]—I wish to make my statement in my own way, with- 539 out unfair interruption. The effect of the Bill will be to make a midwife assume the duties and responsibilities of a medical practitioner. I protest against that to the utmost. Ignorance is very bad, but half knowledge is sometimes worse. The inadequate training you give to these midwives will give them all the pretences and privileges of the properly qualified, and whatever safeguards you may put on it, the result will be that, instead of calling in a fully-trained medical man who has spent five years of his life in qualifying, the certificated nurse will be called in, and the results will be very serious. Another point is this. My hon. friend, and all those who are in favour of the Bill, speak as if confinement were a serious disease. It is a natural process which, if nature be allowed to take its own course, will usually be attended with successful results. Ignorance and interference may convert confinements into surgical cases in which incompetence will
§ destroy the life it is trying to save. One of the subterranean horrors of society is malpractice in these cases. I charge this Bill as calculated to increase malpractice by giving these women the right to interfere in cases of confinement, and in that way cover, under the cloak of confinement, what is really an illegal practice. I think this Bill is so unpopular, and opposed by so strong a body of cultivated opinion, that it requires a great deal of serious consideration, and for these reasons I beg to move the adjournment of the debate.
§ DR. AMBROSE (Mayo, W.)seconded the motion.
§ Motion made, and Question put, "That the debate be now adjourned."—(Mr. T. P. O'Connor.)
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 56; Noes, 127. (Division List No. 62.)
541| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N.E.) | Garfit, William | Moore, William (Antrim, N.) |
| Allsopp, Hon. George | Giles, Charles Tyrrell | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) |
| Ambrose, Robert | Goldsworthy, Major-General | Morton, Arthur H. A.(Deptford |
| Anstruther, H. T. | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Nicol, Donald Ninian |
| Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) | Greene, H. D. (Shrewsbury) | O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) |
| Baker, Sir John | Greville, Hon. Ronald | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Banbury, Fredk. George | Gull, Sir Cameron | O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.) |
| Barry, Rt. Hon. A. H. S.-(Hunts | Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm. | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Heath, James | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Bowles, T. Gibson (King'sLynn | Hogan, James Francis | Robertson, Herbert (Hackney |
| Caldwell, James | Kenyon, James | Strauss, Arthur |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William | Tanner, Charles Kearns |
| Charrington, Spencer | Lawson, John Grant (Yorks) | Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. H. |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Williams, Joseph Powell-(Bir. |
| Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth) | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks. |
| Curran, Thomas B. (Donegal) | Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller | Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy |
| Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon | Lowe, Francis William | |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Lowles, John | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Macaleese, Daniel | Mr. T. P. O'Connor and Mr. Galloway. |
| Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) | M'Dermott, Patrick | |
| NOES. | ||
| Arrol, Sir William | Cooke, C. W. Radcliffe (Heref'd | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow | Fisher, William Hayes |
| Asquith, Rt. Hn. H. Henry | Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. | Gedge, Sydney |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol | Courtney, Rt. Hon. Leonard H. | Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond |
| Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull | Cox, Irwin Edwd. Bainbridge | Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans) |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Crilly, Daniel | Gilliat, John Saunders |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Crombie, John William | Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herb. J. |
| Burns, John | Dalkeith, Earl of | Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon |
| Burt, Thomas | Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan | Gurdon, Sir Wm. Brampton |
| Cameron, Sir Chas. (Glasgow) | Doogan, P. C. | Haldane, Richard Burdon |
| Cameron, Robert (Durham) | Dunn, Sir William | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- |
| Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Emmott, Alfred | Hazell, Walter |
| Cavendish, V.C.W.(D'rbysh're | Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorg'n) | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H. |
| Cawley, Frederick | Faber, George Denison | Henderson, Alexander |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Fenwick, Charles | Hobhouse, Henry |
| Colomb, Sir John C. Ready | Fergusson, Rt. Hn Sir J(Manc'r) | Horniman, Frederick John |
| Colville, John | Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry |
| Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn | Monckton, Edward Philip | Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew) |
| Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) | Monk, Charles James | Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire) |
| Jacoby, James Alfred | Moore, Arthur (Londonderry) | Smith, James Parker (Lanarks) |
| Johnston, William (Belfast) | Morrell, George Herbert | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Joicey, Sir James | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Souttar, Robinson |
| Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Steadman, William Charles |
| Kilbride, Denis | O'Connor, Arthur (Donegal) | Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) |
| Kimber, Henry | Oldroyd, Mark | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'dUniv |
| Laurie, Lieut.-General | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Lawrence, Sir E. Durning-(Crn. | Phillpotts, Capt. Arthur | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'lnd | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Ure, Alexander |
| Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington | Power, Patrick Joseph | Wallace, Robert |
| Leng, Sir John | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Sw'nsea | Purvis, Robert | Wason, Eugene |
| Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Quilter, Sir Cuthbert | Wedderburn, Sir William |
| Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Reid, Sir Robert Threshie | Whiteley, George (Stockport) |
| Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred | Renshaw, Charles Bine | Williams, John Carvell (Notts. |
| Macdona, John Cumming | Rentoul, James Alexander | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| M'Crae, George | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| M'Kenna, Reginald | Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) | Wilson, John (Govan) |
| M'Killop, James | Round, James | Wilson, J.W.(Worcestersh. N. |
| Maddison, Fred | Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Martin, Richard Biddulph | Rutherford, John | |
| Melville, Beresford Valentine | Ryder, John Herbert Dudley | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand | Schwann, Charles E. | Mr. Heywood Johnstone and Mr. Tennant. |
| Middlemore, J. Throgmorton | Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) | |
| Milward, Colonel Victor | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
§ Original Question again proposed.
§ MR. VICARY GIBBSAnyone who has listened to the speeches of hon. Members opposite would suppose that a great many members of the medical profession were against this Bill. That is not so, because the General Medical Council, the Royal College of Physicians, and the Royal College of Surgeons are all in favour of the Bill.
§ DR. TANNER (Cork County, Mid)My name is down on the Paper against this Bill, and I desire to say a few words upon it. The leading medical paper in this country is the Lancet. That paper took a plebiscite of the medical profession, and by an overwhelming majority in England, Scotland, and Wales they decided against this Bill. There are a great many professed humanitarians who say upon this question that women are always better qualified than men to deal with women, even under most arduous circumstances, and that their strength would be quite sufficient to support the strain put upon them in such cases. This question has been taken up in France and Germany, and this measure is proceeding on lines opposed to Continental experience. I think it is very unwise in matters of this kind to absolutely put a half-qualified, or in most cases a wholly 542 unqualified, woman in such a position that she has all the powers of life and death in her hands in dealing with matters which medical men have to practise for at least four years in order to understand. By this Act of Parliament you undo all that has been done in the past, and in the face of the material vice that you have seen cropping up in your midst, not only in this country but in America, France, and other countries, you absolutely take away a controlling and guiding power for good that you have created through education. The whole control is now to be given to some uneducated woman. I heard the First Lord pleading against the small Bill about selling liquor to children, but here is a Bill dealing with human life, that touches the very essence of our well-doing, and I ask, are you really going to work this mischief? I sincerely hope not. I have never known a graver occasion affecting the interests of the profession to which I have the honour to belong. Speaking for the major portion of my friends in that profession, I should be unworthy of my position in this House if I did not raise my voice, however meek it might be, in the interests of humanity against this proposal.
§ MR. HAZELL (Leicester), who spoke amid loud cries of "Divide, divide!" supported the Second Reading of the Bill.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 124; Noes, 34. (Division List No. 63.)
| AYES. | ||
| Arrol, Sir William | Haldane, Richard Burdon | Oldroyd, Mark |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Hardy, Laurence | Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay |
| Baker, Sir John | Hazell, Walter | Phillpotts, Captain Arthur |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Henderson, Alexander | Pickersgill, Edward Hare |
| Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H.(Bristol | Hobhouse, Henry | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull | Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Bolton, Thomas Dolling | Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn | Quilter, Sir Cuthbert |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) | Reid, Sir Robert Threshie |
| Burns, John | Jacoby, James Alfred | Renshaw, Charles Bine |
| Burt, Thomas | Johnston, William (Belfast) | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs) |
| Cameron, Robert (Durham) | Joicey, Sir James | Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) |
| Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Jones, William(Carnarvonsh. | Rutherford, John |
| Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh. | Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William | Ryder, John Herbert Dudley |
| Cawley, Frederick | Kimber, Henry | Schwann, Charles E. |
| Channing, Francis Allston) | Lawrence, Sir E. Durning-(Corn | Scott, Charles P. (Leigh) |
| Charrington, Spencer | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumberland) | Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) |
| Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready | Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) | Sinclair, Capt. Jn. (Forfarsh.) |
| Colville, John | Leng, Sir John | Smith, James Parker(Lanarks. |
| Cooke, C. W. R. (Hereford) | Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swans. | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) |
| Corbett, A. Cameron(Glasgow) | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Souttar, Robinson |
| Cornwallis, Fiennes S. W. | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Steadman, William Charles |
| Courtney, Rt. Hon. Leonard H. | Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller | Sullivan, Donald (Westmeath) |
| Crombie, John William | Lowe, Francis William | Talbot, Rt Hn J. G.(Oxf'd Univ. |
| Curran, Thomas B. (Donegal) | Lowles John | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan | Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred | Ure, Alexander |
| Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon | Macdona, John Cumming | Wallace, Robert |
| Dunn, Sir William | M'Kenna, Reginald | Walton, John Lawson(Leeds, S. |
| Emmott, Alfred | M'Killop, James | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) | Maddison, Fred. | Wason, Eugene |
| Fenwick, Charles | Martin, Richard Biddulph | Wedderburn, Sir William |
| Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J (Manc'r | Melville, Beresford Valentine | Whiteley, George (Stockport) |
| Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) | Milward, Colonel Victor | Williams, John Carvell(Notts. |
| Finlay, Sir Robt. Bannatyne | Molloy, Bernard Charles | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Monckton, Edward Philip | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Flannery, Sir Fortescue | Monk, Charles James | Wilson, John (Govan) |
| Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) | Moore, Arthur (Londonderry | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.) |
| Gedge, Sydney | Moore, William (Antrim, N.) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Alban's) | More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) | |
| Gilliat, John Saunders | Morrell, George Herbert | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Eldon | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) | Mr. Heywood Johnstone and Mr. Tennant. |
| Greene, Hy. D. (Shrewsbury) | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | |
| Gurdon, Sir William Brampton | O'Connor, Arthur (Donegal) |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham William(Cork, N.E.) | Greville, Hon. Ronald | Pierpoint, Robert |
| Allsopp, Hon. George | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- | Purvis, Robert |
| Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) | Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H. | Rentoul, James Alexander |
| Blundell, Colonel Henry | Hogan, James Francis | Strauss, Arthur |
| Caldwell, James | Kenyon, James | Tanner, Charles Kearns |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Kilbride, Denis | Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. H. |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) | Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks |
| Doogan, P. C. | Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie | Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A, Akers- | Macaleese, Daniel | |
| Galloway, William Johnson | M'Dermott, Patrick | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Giles, Charles Tyrrell | Nicol, Donald Ninian | Mr. T. P. O'Connor and Dr. Robert Ambrose. |
| Goldsworthy, Major-General | O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) | |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
§ MR. T. P. O'CONNORMay I ask my hon. friend what course he now proposes to pursue in regard to this Bill.
§ MR. J. H. JOHNSTONEI beg to propose that it be referred to the Grand Committee on Law.
§ Bill read a second time, and committed to the Standing Committee on Law, etc.
§ Adjourned at a quarter before Eight of the clock till Monday next.