Commons Sitting of 23 October 1899

PETITIONS.
  GROUND RENTS (TAXATION BY LOCAL AUTHORITIES).
  Petitions in favour, from Heywood, Widnes, and Stockport; to lie upon the Table.
  INEBRIATES ACTS, 1879, 1888, AND 1898.
  Petitions for alteration of law:—from Manchester, and Manchester and Salford; to lie upon the Table.
  SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS ON SUNDAY.
  Petitions against, from Kilburn, Sheffield, Eye, Wortham, Saxmundham, and Penzance; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, &c.
  COLONIAL REPORTS (ANNUAL).
  Copy presented of Report, No. 276 (Gibraltar Annual Report for 1898) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  COLONIAL REPORTS (ANNUAL).
  Copy presented, of Report No. 275 (British Solomon Islands, Annual Report for 1898–9) [by Command]; to lie upon one Table.
  UNIVERSITIES OF OXFORD AND CAMBRIDGE ACT, 1877 (OXFORD).
  Copy presented, of a Statute made by the Governing Body of Worcester College, Oxford, at a meeting held on the 22nd February, 1899, and continued by adjournment on the 8th March, 1899, amending Statute III. 10 of the Statutes of the College [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 8.]

  UNIVERSITIES OF OXFORD AND CAMBRIDGE ACT, 1877 (OXFORD).
  Copy presented, of a Statute made by the Governing Body of Brasenose College, Oxford, on the 15th March, 1899, amend-
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  ing Statutes III. and XIV. of the College Statutes [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 9.]

  UNIVERSITIES OF OXFORD AND CAMBRIDGE ACT, 1877 (OXFORD).
  Copy presented, of a Statute made by the Governing Body of Pembroke College, Oxford, on 3rd March, 1899, amending Clause 9 of Statute II. and Clause 3 of Statute VIII. of the College Statutes [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 10.]
QUESTIONS.

  TRANSVAAL WAR—SELECTION OF TROOPS FOR ACTIVE SERVICE.
  MAJOR WYNDHAM-QUIN: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War if he will state what were the reasons that induced the military authorities in India not to despatch the 16th Lancers, now at Umballa, for active service in South Africa; and why, considering this regiment was first on the roster for active service, another cavalry regiment was selected in its place.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. WYNDHAM,): The selection of the regiments to proceed from India to South Africa rests entirely with the Commander-in-Chief in India, and the Secretary of State does not propose to inquire why any particular regiment was selected.

  ARMY ESTIMATES—SPECIAL SERVICES IN SOUTH AFRICA.
  MR, BUCHANAN: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether a separate account of the total cost of the special services for which the Army Supplementary Estimate is being obtained will be appended to the Appropriation Account of the year.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Yes, Sir. There exists a standing order from the Treasury that such a statement shall always, be given of the cost of special services.

  PROGRESS OF THE WAR.
  MR. BANBURY: May I ask if the Under Secretary for War has any news from South Africa he can communicate to the House.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The Commander-in-Chief (Lord Wolseley) thus sums up the situation—
  "The position in Natal early this morning was as follows:—In the battle at Elandslaagte on the 21st inst. two guns were captured from the Boers, who lost heavily. Large columns of the enemy appear to be advancing from the north and west on General Yule. He had consequently fallen back from Dundee, and was concentrating at Glencoe Junction. In this operation we gather that the wounded and their medical attendants were left at Dundee. General White was in position at Ladysmith, and is being reinforced from Maritzburg. The enemy appear to be in large numerical superiority."

  TROOPS AT BELFAST.
  MR. MACALEESE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland will he explain why all the military, with the exception of a small number of recruits, have been withdrawn from the Victoria Barracks, Clifton Street, Belfast, seeing that it has been found necessary on more than one occasion recently, and when the police were unable to suppress dangerous riots in Belfast, to call out the military to aid the civil power; and will he have the military now withdrawn replaced by others, so that in the unfortunate event of any recurrence of local disturbances the peaceable citizens might have due protection.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The troops withdrawn from Belfast were required for service in South Africa. I have already explained in this House how troops withdrawn in this, and similar instances, will be replaced. I may add that a squadron of Dragoon Guards will, among other troops, be at Belfast.

  HEALTH OF TROOPS IN INDIA.
  SIR J. FERGUSSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India if he can inform the House how the returns of admission to hospital for venereal disease compare with those of previous years.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Lord G. HAMILTON,): The admission rate for venereal diseases among British troops in India (including those on field service) was 363 per 1,000 in 1898, against 486 in 1897, 511in 1896, and 522 in 1895. This is a considerable decrease, and is the more
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  gratifying because the new cantonment rules, to which it is no doubt mainly due had not fully come into operation at the time when the return was made. The rate was lower in 1898 than in any year since 1887; and the figures of 1898 show a greater reduction on those of 1897 than has ever been recorded in any previous year, but they are still sadly high, and I hope and expect under the present system to see them much further reduced.
  SIR J. FERGUSSON: Can my noble friend give any statement as to Her Majesty's ships in the Indian ports?
  LORD G. HAMILTON: No, Sir.

  CALCUTTA MUNICIPAL BILL.
  MR. J. H. ROBERTS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether the Calcutta Municipal Bill has been passed into law by the Bengal Legislative Council, and whether more than half the elected members of the present Corporation of Calcutta have resigned their seats as a protest against the action of the Government in reference to the Bill referred to; and whether, in view of these circumstances, this House will have an opportunity of considering the provisions of the new law before it comes into operation in April next.
  LORD G. HAMILTON: My answer to the first two questions is in the affirmative. As regards the third question, I do not propose to depart from the ordinary procedure prescribed for Acts passed by the local legislature, and which are reported to the Secretary of State.

  ENGLAND AND ABYSSINIA.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can state to the House which Abyssinian province it is which has been assigned to the government of a Russian subject, Count Leontieff, and how it stands geographically in relation to the British sphere of influence north of Lake Rudolph.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,) (for Mr. BRODRICK): So far as we are aware the province which has been assigned to Monsieur Leontieff is Situated to the north-east of Lake Rudolph, and

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  is bounded on the west by the Omo River. The actual boundary between the British sphere and Abyssinia is under discussion with the Emperor Menelek.

  THE WAIMA INCIDENT.
  MR. BILL: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, referring to the statement made in this House by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on June 9 last, that a favourable consideration might be given to the Waima claims by the French Government, he can state what progress has been made since that date towards a satisfactory settlement.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR (for Mr. BRODRICK): The French Government have accepted arbitration and admitted the principle of an indemnity to the British sufferers, if Waima is proved to be in British territory—of which Her Majesty's Government will be able to furnish clear proof. The French Government have been informed that Her Majesty's Government are ready to discuss the best methods of giving effect to the views of the two Governments in regard to a reference to arbitration.

  ENGLISH LANGUAGE AT MALTA.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies, having regard to the fact that under a Commission appointed by His Majesty King William IV., dated November 13, 1834, a decree was promulgated authorising the use of the Italian language in all legal proceedings in Malta, will he state why, on March 15 last, he instructed the Governor of Malta to make known by proclamation that it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government that the English language should be substituted for the Italian language in all legal proceedings in Malta after a period of fifteen years; has he received from the elected members of the Council of Government of Malta, and also from the members of the legal profession in Malta, a protest against this decision; and, will he, in view of this protest, adhere to the arrangement entered into in 1834.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN,): My reasons for directing the Governor of Malta to issue the
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  proclamation are stated in my despatch of April 28th last, printed in the House of Commons Return No. 287 of July last I have received protests from the elected members of the Council of Government and from members of the legal profession in Malta, which I have carefully considered; but for the reasons stated in the despatch referred to, I see no ground for altering the decision arrived at.

  AUSTRALIAN COMMONWEALTH BILL.
  MR. GALLOWAY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether Her Majesty's Government have yet come to any decision in the matter of the proposed abolition of the appeal to the Privy Council under the new Australasian Commonwealth Bill.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: The Australasian Commonwealth Bill is under consideration. I do not think that the effect of its provisions in regard to appeals to the Privy Council is accurately described in the hon. Member's question.

  IRREGULAR NONCONFORMIST MARRIAGES.
  MR. CARVELL WILLIAMS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that within are cent period cases have occurred in which, in consequence of illegalities or serious irregularities committed by registrars, marriages have had to be celebrated a second time; what action has been taken by the Registrar General in regard to such registrars; and what steps have been or will be taken to prevent the recurrence of such incidents.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. CHAPLIN,): I understand that a registrar of marriages recently allowed two marriages to be illegally solemnised in a Nonconformist chapel without the production of the necessary certificates, although he knew that these certificates had not been issued and were not at the time due. The two marriages were subsequently re-solemnised in order to obviate all doubt as to their legality. The Registrar General at once required the resignation of the registrar, who accordingly resigned his office. I am informed that there is no record of a

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  similar offence having been committed by any registrar of marriages, of whom there are above 1,000 in England and Wales, and I trust that the steps taken in this instance will prevent the occurrence of any similar case in future.

  SOUTH KENSINGTON MUSEUM.
  MR. MAURICE HEALY: I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education from what source he got the information supplied by him to the House on the 18th May last, to the effect that the examination announced to be held on the 13th December, 1898, to fill a vacancy in the position of assistant in the South Kensington Museum (Art Branch) had been actually held; and whether he is now aware that no examination was held, and that a gentleman was appointed to the position without examination.
  THE VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE COMMITTEE OF COUNCIL ON EDUCATION (Sir J. GORST,): The information given by me to the House in May last was based upon the information at that time in the possession of the Science and Art Department respecting the proceedings of thn Civil Service Commissioners in the matter. It appears from information subsequently given to the House by the Secretary to the Treasury that the examination in question was begun but not completed, because there was only one competitor, and he was qualified by previous examination.

  INEBRIATES' REFORMATORIES.
  MR. PICKERSGILL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the observations of the learned Chairman of the County of London Sessions on the 18th instant, in passing sentence on Joanna Driscoll, that there was no State inebriate reformatory in existence to which he could order her to be sent, as contemplated by the Inebriates Act; whether, seeing that a man who had previously been convicted seven times in twelve months was sentenced, at the recent Lancaster Quarter Sessions, to three years' detention in an inebriates' reformatory, but the Home Office has informed the Governor of Lancaster Castle hat there is no reformatory for such ine-
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  briates, he will state what course does he propose to take with regard to this prisoner; and whether temporary arrangements have been made for the use of a portion of one of Her Majesty's prisons for a State inebriate reformatory, as stated in the Report of the Departmental Committee, dated 12th December last; and if not, will he be good enough to state what steps he has taken to give effect to the intention of Parliament.
  *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir M. WHITE RIDLEY,): I have seen a newspaper report of the case at the London Quarter Sessions, and I am making inquiry as to the circumstances. I may say that prima facie the accused seems to be as well qualified for committal to a certified reformatory—of which there are now several in existence—as to a State reformatory. As regards the case at the Lancashire Quarter Sessions, I am also making inquiry, as the circumstances of the committal are not clear. I may add that there will be at least one certified reformatory ready for the reception of male inebriates in a very short time. I have abandoned the project of adapting a portion of one of Her Majesty's prisons for use as a temporary State reformatory. My reasons for so doing, as well as for hesitating to establish a permanent State reformatory, are given fully in a circular which I issued last January to Her Majesty's judges and others, and of which I have directed a copy to be sent to the hon. Member. I will only say here that subsequent experience has justified and confirmed that hesitation.

  ELECTRIC TRACTION ON METROPOLITAN RAILWAYS.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will state whether the experiments made between Earl's Court and High Street, Kensington, with the object of introducing electric traction on the metropolitan underground railways, have proved satisfactory; and will he say whether there is any prospect of electric traction being introduced on these railways at an early date.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. RITCHIE,): The necessary plant has been constructed

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  during the summer, and I understand that an experimental train will be run during the early part of November. I cannot say when electric traction will be introduced generally; that must depend, of course, on the result of experiments.

  COMMUNICATION ON PASSENGER TRAINS.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether the Committee of Railway General Managers have yet decided on the most suitable appliance to be fixed in passenger trains as a means of communication between railway passengers and the guard.
  MR. RITCHIE: I understand that; there is a preponderance of opinion in favour of what is known as the "brake system" of communication, and that most of the larger companies are taking steps to apply it.

  MUZZLING ORDER IN LANCASHIRE.
  MR. GALLOWAY: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture if he can state when the Muzzling Order will be taken off in Lancashire.
  *THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE (Mr. LONG,): An Order has been issued revoking the Muzzling Order now in force in Lancashire as from Friday next, the 27th inst.

  ILLEGAL TRAWLING OFF THE ISLAND OF LEWIS.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate, in view of the fact that illegal trawling is still prosecuted to a large extent in Broad Bay and other waters around the coast of the Island of Lewis, will arrangements be made for a satisfactory patrol of these waters.
  *THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAY,): That the patrol of the waters referred to in the question is fairly and reasonably efficient is evidenced by the facts that since the beginning of the year four convictions have been obtained against offenders, and that penalties to the amount of £200 have been imposed. The waters referred to are receiving the special attention of the Fishery Board.

  HIGHLAND FISHERY LOANS.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate, having regard to the fact that the fishermen of the Highlands and Islands of Scotland have repaid as much as £24,000 out of the £30,000 advanced up to the close of 1890 for the purchase of fishing boats, will the Fishery Board, now that £6,000 only is owing, consider the expediency of again granting loans of this description.
  *MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: The hon. Member is correct in stating that £24,000 has been repaid, but it must be remembered that that figure includes interest as well as principal. £8,818 principal and interest is still in arrear, of which £5,721 has had to be written off as irrecoverable. The Fishery Board do not propose to revive the loans for the present.

  BRIDGE-OF-WEIR ORPHAN HOMES.
  SIR CHARLES CAMERON: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether the 900 children of school age, inmates of the Bridge-of-Weir Orphan Homes, whom the local school board in April last refused to admit to the public school, have during the last six months been in attendance at any school; whether the official sent by the Scottish Education Department to inspect the school buildings at the orphan homes at Bridge-of-Weir has yet sent in his report as to their suitability for the purposes of a public school, and the terms on which the proprietors are willing to let or lease them to the school board; and whether any step has been taken by the Department to secure that the provisions of the law of Scotland as to compulsory education shall not remain indefinitely in abeyance in the district in question.
  *MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: The question in dispute between the school board and the managers of the orphan homes has been the subject of much correspondence, and I regret to say that it is not yet settled. The inspector has reported the buildings to be well suited for the purposes of a school, but it does not rest with the Department to arrange the terms on which they may be leased. The Department have been pressing the school board for a decision as to their action, and a definite reply has been promised this week. Until that is before

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  them their Lordships can make no further statement.

  NEW POSTAGE STAMPS.
  MR. HENNIKER HEATON: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether it is the intention of the Department to issue a postage stamp or stamps of a new design on an early date; and, if so, will he state the values of the new stamps, and the colours to be used; and whether he has been able to overcome the difficulties in the way of arranging for the issue of an Imperial or an International postage stamp.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. HANBURY,): It is intended to alter the colour of the halfpenny stamp from red to green, but the present design will not be altered. It is also intended to issue a new shilling stamp, but the colour and design have not yet been decided upon. The answer to the second paragraph is in the negative.

  NORTH OF IRELAND MAIL SERVICE.
  COLONEL M'CALMONT: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether the attention of the Postmaster General has been drawn to the constant irregularity of the mail service between London and the north of Ireland by Stranraer and Larne; whether he is aware that the connection between Larne and Ballymena missed twenty-four times in September, and every day for the first fortnight of this month, thus causing serious inconvenience to business men and others, who rely on the punctual carrying out of the service; whether the delay almost invariably takes place south of Carlisle; and whether means can be taken to enforce the observance of the official time-table.
  MR. HANBURY: The working of the mail service between London and the north of Ireland, by way of Stranraer and Larne, is no doubt irregular. There were seventeen failures of connection with Ballymena during last month, and there have been twelve already during the present month. A part of the delay has occurred south of Carlisle, and a part on subsequent stages of the journey. An arrangement has recently been made by the London and North Western Railway
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  Company for securing a more punctual arrival at Carlisle, and it is understood that as regards the service from Carlisle northwards the companies responsible have for some time past been making special enquiry with a view of providing a remedy.

  CIVIL SERVICE EXAMINATIONS.
  MR. MAURICE HEALY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether any change has been made in the practice of the Civil Service Commissioners by virtue of which examinations are held not merely with a view to filling existing vacancies, but also with a view to vacancies arising within six months after the examination.
  MR. HANBURY: No, Sir.

  KERRY POSTMEN.
  MR. FLAVIN: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, how many of the rural and other postmen in the County Kerry are still without the increased scale of pay granted or recommended by the Tweedmouth Committee, although auxiliary postmen have benefited by the Tweedmouth Committee over a year ago; and whether it can be stated when the rural postmen who are entitled to increased pay will receive the same.
  MR. HANBURY: None.

  FAIR RENT CASES IN ULSTER.
  MR. M'CARTAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state in how many cases of applications to fix fair rents in Ireland, and also in Ulster, respectively, have the applications of the tenants been refused by reason of the non-production of certificates of valuation for the "standard" year; whether he is aware that in many cases where two or more small holdings have been consolidated into one holding before or when judicial rents had been fixed for first term, that now no certificates of valuation for the standard year in respect of the smaller holdings are or were procurable, and by this rule of the Land Commission the tenants are thus prevented from getting fixed judicial rents for the second term, and the landlords can enforce payment of

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  the old rents even when they consent to the separation of the holdings; and whether he will inquire if the Land Commission can remedy the consequences of this rule, and make provision to enable the tenants to have judicial rents fixed thereon.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. G. W. BALFOUR,): Applicants to have fair rents fixed are required by the Final Rules of the Land Commission, dated the 20th of July last, in respect of applications made after that date, to lodge therewith certificates showing the tenement valuation of the holding for the standard financial year. Certificates in such cases can be obtained from the Secretary to the County Council for the sum of sixpence. In no cases coming under these rules have applications to fix fair rents been refused for the reason stated in the question. With regard to applications pending at the date of the rules, the Land Commissioners made arrangements, when the Local Government Act came into operation, themselves to obtain particulars of such tenement valuations from the General Valuation Office; but in some few of these cases, it was found that there is no separate valuation, and in such cases, having regard to the provisions of Section 55 of the Local Government Act, a fair rent cannot be fixed until the valuation has been revised in accordance with the Valuation Acts. In such cases the Land Commission have notified the parties and the Commissioner of Valuation of the necessity for revision, and the applications to have fair rents fixed have been adjourned, not refused. The number of cases so adjourned is comparatively small. Any delay which has occurred in disposing of the cases does not arise from any Rule of the Land Commission, but from the fact that the Commissioners are required by the Local Government Act to give effect to the considerations mentioned in the 55th Section when fixing a fair rent.

  AGRARIAN CRIME IN CLARE.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether, as the extra police have been withdrawn from Clare in consequence of the peaceable state of the county, he will ask the lord Lieutenant to consider whether the
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  time has now come for the release of the prisoners from Clare convicted of agrarian offences many years ago, and now in Mountjoy Prison.
  MR. G. W. BALFOUR: A memorial on behalf of all the convicts referred to in the question is now before the Lord Lieutenant, and a decision upon the memorial will be arrived at in due course.

  LANESBORO' ESTATE TENANTS.
  MR. MACALEESE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that six tenants on the Lanesboro' estate filed originating notices eleven months ago to have second-term judicial rents fixed, and have not yet had their cases heard, although a land court was held in Longford within the past week; does any special reason exist for the delay in this case; and when may these tenants have their cases brought before the court.
  MR. G. W. BALFOUR: There are no applications to fix fair rents pending in the County Longford in which the Earl of Lanesboro' is described as landlord.

  MR. MICHAEL CLARKE'S ARMS LICENCE.
  MR. ROCHE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Mr. Michael Clarke, of Fahy, County Galway, whose licence to carry arms is confined to five acres in the townland of Fahy, has been refused an extension, although his application has been supported by two local justices of the peace, together with owners of property and constabulary authorities in the district; and as Mr. Clarke holds thirty acres of land outside the townland of Fahy, will he direct that the extension applied for be granted.
  MR. G. W. BALFOUR: The question of granting an extension of Mr. Clarke's arms licence is one for determination by the licensing officer of the district, and I see no reason to interfere with the discretion vested in that officer. I am informed that Mr. Clarke holds no land whatever, but merely looks after his father's farm, for which the existing licence is available.

  FLAX CULTIVATION IN IRELAND.
  MR. DALY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the growing of flax in Ireland has been decreasing year by year; and whether he will immediately appoint experts to instruct the farmers of Ireland as to the best methods of growing flax.
  MR. G. W. BALFOUR: I am aware that the fact is as stated in the first paragraph. The whole subject of flax culture is one which I have no doubt will engage the attention of the new Department of Agriculture when created.
  MR. DALY: Will it be before the next crop is due?
  MR. G. W. BALFOUR: The Department does not come into existence until the 1st April next.

  IMPRISONMENT FOR CONTEMPT OF COURT—CASE OF DANIEL O'DONNELL.
  MR. P. A. M'HUGH: I bog to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that a man named Daniel O'Donnell, of Gortnasillagh, County Leitrim, is at present a prisoner in Sligo Gaol; was the prisoner charged with an offence against any law, was he accorded a trial before imprisonment, when was he imprisoned, and when will he be released; and if O'Donnell was imprisoned without trial, will he direct that a definite charge be preferred against him, so that if he has broken any law he may be subjected to a definite punishment, and that if he has not broken any law, he may be released.
  MR. G. W. BALFOUR: O'Donnell was evicted in January, 1898, for nonpayment of four years' rent which had accrued due in November, 1896. After eviction he retook possession by force, and though frequently requested to leave, he refused to do so. As the estate was administered by the Land Judge's Court, a receiver had been appointed over it, and an application was made to the court on an affidavit setting forth the facts, for an attachment order for contempt of court in retaking possession. The order was granted, and under it O'Donnell was imprisoned on the 30th August last. The responsibility for the issue of the order rests solely with the Land Judge, who alone has power to discharge the prisoner.
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  Powers of committal such as this are exercised by all Chancery Judges in the three kingdoms.

  MANORHAMILTON WATERWORKS.
  MR. P. A. M'HUGH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has received a copy of a resolution adopted at a meeting of the Manorhamilton Board of Guardians on the 5th October instant, claiming that the charge for the Manorhamilton waterworks should be levied on the town of Manorhamilton and the town-lands of Clooneen and Skreeny, in accordance with a previous decision of the guardians sanctioned by the Local Government Board; is an attempt now being made to levy the cost of the waterworks on the union at large; and would he instruct the Local Government Board to limit the charge to the area originally decided on so as to secure the ratepayers of the union at large against the imposition of a charge which the Local Government Board, after due inquiry, fixed on Manorhamilton, Clooneen, and Skreeny.
  MR. G. W. BALFOUR: A copy of the resolution mentioned has been received. Under the General Order issued by the Local Government Board on May 15 last, the area of charge for all special sanitary expenses, except those incurred in municipal towns, was made the rural district. As Manorhamilton is not a town under municipal government, the expenses for the water scheme became, therefore, leviable over the rural district. An Amending Order was subsequently issued, and both the original Order of May 15 and the Amending Order were made valid and effectual for all purposes by a clause in the Public Works Loans Act of last session. Any further alteration in the areas of charge thus fixed would probably be ultra vires, but the cases of one or two localities, which were not included in the Amending Order, have since been the subject of representations to the Local Government Board, and it is under consideration whether it may not be advisable in the course of next session to give the Board, by legislation, power to deal with such cases.
  MR. DILLON: Was the Order made valid for only one year or for an indefinite period?
  MR. G. W. BALFOUR: Oh, permanently.

  PROCLAIMED MEETING IN COUNTY LEITRIM.
  MR. P. A. M'HUGH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that several thousand persons openly disobeyed and defied the proclamation of a resident magistrate forbidding the holding of a United Irish League meeting at Dromahair, County Leitrim, on September 17; will he explain why, although the proclamation set forth that anyone disobeying it would be prosecuted according to law, no one has been prosecuted for acting in contravention of the proclamation; and will he give one or more of those who defied the proclamation an opportunity of testing the legality of the proclamation by instituting proceedings against them in accordance with the threat conveyed in its terms.
  MR. G. W. BALFOUR: Several attempts were made to hold a meeting in defiance of the proclamation, but as they were unsuccessful the main object of the proclamation was attained. Prosecutions are in consequence unnecessary. Any person who may have defied the proclamation has already power to test the legality of the proceedings in a court of law if he so desires.

  IRISH LAY ASSISTANT COMMISSIONERS.
  MR. MAURICE HEALY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will state the class of subjects on which lay assistant commissioners are now examined before appointment.
  MR. G. W. BALFOUR: The qualifications of lay assistant commissioners are prescribed by the rules of the Irish Land Commission, dated March 13 last (Parliamentary Paper C. 9296). In connection with the qualifications therein prescribed a qualifying examination is held by the Civil Service Commissioners in the following subjects: Agriculture, principles of surveying, English composition including précis, and arithmetic up to and including vulgar and decimal fractions.

  IRISH LAND COMMISSION.
  MR. MAURICE HEALY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieuten-
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  ant of Ireland what the practice of the Irish Land Commission is as regards the selection of assistant commissioners employed as appeal valuers; whether all assistant commissioners are employed on this duty in turn, or whether only certain of them are employed on it; and on what principles the assistant commissioners employed for the purpose are selected in either case.
  MR. G. W. BALFOUR: There are at present sixteen assistant commissioners working as appeal valuers. They are continuously employed in this work, and it is not the practice to employ assistant, commissioners to discharge this function in turn. The duty of selecting the appeal valuers is placed upon the Land Commission by the Land Law Act of 1881. The Commission, in the exercise of the statutory discretion confided to it, uses its knowledge and experience of such officials to select those whom it believes best qualified to discharge the duty of reporting to it upon holdings which are the subject of appeals and re-hearings
  MR. MAURICE HEALY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the 65 rule has recently been applied by the Irish Land Commission to several assistant commissioners; whether it applies to all employees of the Land Commission; and whether any employees of the Land Commission over sixty-five years of age have been retained; and, if so, who.
  MR. G. W. BALFOUR: The Orders in Council respecting the compulsory retirement of all permanent officers in the Civil Service upon their attaining the age of sixty five apply to the members of the permanent staff of the Irish Land Commission, but the Land Commission have nothing to say to the application of these Orders so far as regards assistant commissioners. Five members of the permanent staff of assistant commissioners have come within the provisions of the Orders in question and have been awarded a retiring allowance by the Treasury. In three of these cases the Lord Lieutenant issued warrants enabling the officers in question to be employed for a further period of time as temporary assistant commissioners, their pensions to be in abeyance during the time they were so employed. The three gentlemen to whom such warrants were issued are Messrs.

  503
  O'Shaughnessy, Rice, and O'Keefe. There are also five other gentlemen above the age of sixty-five who hold warrants as temporary assistant commissioners. Their names are Messrs. Deane, Comyn, Roberts, Moroney, and Sproule. These gentlemen were never members of the permanent staff, and consequently have no claims to pensions, as in the cases of permanent officers, on retirement.

  LAND LAW (IRELAND) ACT, 1896.
  MR. MAURICE HEALY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state down to what year returns have been made out for the Land Judge, under the rules made pursuant to Section 40 of the Land Law (Ireland) Act, 1896, of estates to which that section in the first instance applies; and how far the returns already presented have been gone through by the judge in the regular course.
  MR. G. W. BALFOUR: The returns referred to have been brought down to the year 1891. Of the 241 cases included in the returns, about 183 have appeared in the Land Judge's list.

  WARE'S ESTATE.
  MR. MAURICE HEALY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state the date on which the rental in Ware's Estate was lodged in the Land Judge's Court for settlement by the examiner; whether the rulings on title have yet been issued; and what the cause of the delay in issuing them has been.
  MR. G. W. BALFOUR: The rental in this estate has not been lodged for settlement, nor can it be until after the rulings on title have been issued. The registrar of the Land Judge's Court states that, in the absence on leave of the examiner who has charge of this case, he is unable to afford the information desired by the last paragraph.

  IRISH LOCAL GOVERNMENT RULES.
  MR. MAURICE HEALY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Return (No. 360 of last session) of Rules and Orders, &c., under the Local Government (Ireland) Act, has not yet been printed; and whether, in view of
  504
  its great importance to all local bodies in Ireland, he will take steps to have its printing and issue expedited.
  MR. G. W. BALFOUR: The printing of this Return, which is a very voluminous one, is being pressed forward as rapidly as possible. I am informed, however, that it will not be ready for issue for some weeks to come.

  SMALL HOLDINGS IN COUNTY MAYO.
  DR. ROBERT AMBROSE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to a resolution of the Castlebar District Council, dated 10th October, in which it is stated that there are numbers of people living on small holdings of worn out and unproductive land, and seeing that the Congested Districts Board cannot relieve those people unless the districts in which they live are scheduled as congested districts, he will see that the whole county of Mayo is so scheduled.
  MR. G. W. BALFOUR: The resolution referred to has been received, but legislation would be necessary to give effect to it.

  MULLINGAR COURTHOUSE.
  MR. TUITE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been drawn to the language used by County Judge Curran, when addressing the Grand Jury at Quarter Sessions, held in Mullingar on 16th October, when the judge, referring to a resolution recently passed by the County Council refusing to heat the courthouse on account of the action of the sheriff in preventing the erection of the national flag on the courthouse, said that if he had the proposer and seconder of that resolution before him, he would send them to gaol for contempt of court; and whether he will call the attention of the Lord Chancellor to the language used by the learned judge on that occasion.
  MR. G. W. BALFOUR: I have referred this question to Judge Curran for any observations he might have desired to offer, but he respectfully declines to answer any question asked in Parliament as to anything said or done by him in his judicial capacity. I may

  505
  observe, however, that the conduct of the County Council was a deliberate violation of their statutory duty, most reprehensible in its character, and deserving of the censure of the learned judge, inasmuch as it was calculated and intended to interfere with the administration of justice in his court. It is not my intention to make any representations to the Lord Chancellor on the subject.

  IMPRISONMENT FOR CONTEMPT OF COURT—CASE OF DOLAN, MCGRAIL, RAGAN, AND GALLAGHER.
  MR. P. A. M'HUGH: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he is aware that Patrick Dolan, county councillor, Stephen McGrail, district councillor, James Ragan, district councillor, and Joseph Gallagher, all of Drumkeerin, County Leitrim, were last month sentenced to an unlimited term of imprisonment for contempt of court; whether he is aware that the principal statements in the affidavits of Mr. Hewson, the Receiver, on which the orders for attachment for contempt were issued, have been contradicted on oath; whether he is aware that Mr. Hewson, the Receiver, has been unanimously condemned by the Leitrim County Council, of which he is a member, for making false statements in the affidavits on which the gentlemen named have been sentenced to unlimited terms of imprisonment; and will he, under the circumstances, give an opportunity in the present session for the discussion of the motion appearing on the Paper in reference to committals for contempt of court.
  MR. G. W, BALFOUR: At the request of my right hon. friend I will reply to this question. The facts are as stated in the first paragraph. As to the second paragraph, I assume that the affidavits referred to, if made at all, were made in reply to Mr. Hewson's affidavit, and if so must have been considered by the court before it made the order. It is true that the County Council have passed a resolution condemnatory of Mr. Hewson. In answer to the last paragraph, I understand that my right hon. friend is not
  prepared to give an opportunity in the present session for the discussion of the motion referred to.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE—STANDING ORDERS.
MR, DUNCOMBE: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether his attention has been called to certain notices now upon the Paper suggesting alterations of the Standing Orders; and whether he will undertake that at an early date in the nextsession of Parliament the House shall have an opportunity of expressing its opinion of the most convenient and desirable method of conducting its own business.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: My attention has been called to the notice on the Paper. But I am unwilling, in the course of the present session, to give any pledges as regards the business of next session. Perhaps my hon. friend will defer this question until a later period.

TRANSVAAL AFFAIRS—THE HAWKSLEY CORRESPONDENCE.
MR. STANHOPE: I have a question to put to the First Lord in reference to a notice of motion I propose to put on the Paper for the presentation of all correspondence between the Colonial Office and Mr. Hawksley, acting as solicitor for Mr. Rhodes, from May 1 to December 31, 1896. As this matter has been called a mare's nest, I wish to ask if this correspondence will be given as an unopposed return.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: No.

SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE (EXEMPTION FROM THE STANDING ORDER).
Motion made, and Question put, "That the proceedings of the Committee of Ways and Means, if the Committee be sitting at Twelve o'clock this night, be not interrupted under the Standing Order Sittings of the House."—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
The House divided—Ayes, 271; Noes, 40. (Division List No. 10.)

AYES.

Aird, John

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Bailey, James (Walworth)

Allan, William (Gateshead)

Archdale, Edw. Mervyn

Baillie, J. E. B. (Inverness)

Allhusen, Augustus Henry E.

Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis

Bain bridge, Emerson

Allsopp, Hon. George

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Baird, John Geo. Alexander

Baker, Sir John

Fisher, William Hayes

M'Crae, George

Baldwin, Alfred

Fison, Frederick William

Maddison, Fred.

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Man.)

Folkestone, Viscount

Malcolm, Ian

Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W(Leeds

Foster, Sir W. (Derby Co.)

Maple, Sir John Blundell

Banbury, Frederick George

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Marks, Henry Hananel

Barnes, Frederic Gorell

Galloway, William Johnson

Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

Barry, Rt. Hon. A. H. S.-(Hunts

Gedge, Sydney

Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir Herbert E.

Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor

Gibbons, J. Lloyd

Mellor, Colonel (Lancashire)

Barton, Dunbar Plunket

Giles, Charles Tyrrell

Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand

Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol

Gilliat, John Saunders

Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

Beckett, Ernest William

Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbt. J.

Middlemore, J. Throgmorton

Bethell, Commander

Goldsworthy, Major-General

Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas John

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Gordon, Hon. John Edward

Milward, Colonel Victor

Bigwood, James

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Bill, Charles

Goschen, Rt. Hn. G. J. (St. Geo's.

Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

Blakiston-Houston, John

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen)

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Graham, Henry Robert

Morton, Arthur H. A.(Deptford

Bolitho, Thomas Bedford

Green, Walford D. (Wednesb'ry

Mount, William George

Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme

Greville, Hon. Ronald

Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick)

Murray, Col. Wyndham(Bath)

Bowles, Capt. H.F. (Middlesex

Gull, Sir Cameron

Myers, William Henry

Bowles, T. Gibson (King'sLynn

Gurdon, Sir Wm. Brampton

Newdigate, Francis Alexander

Brookfield, A. Montagu

Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George

Nicholson, William Graham

Brown, Alexander H.

Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm.

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Harwood, George

Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford

Burt, Thomas

Haslett, Sir James Horner

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Butcher, John George

Hazell, Walter

Oldroyd, Mark

Buxton, Sydney Charles

Heath, James

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin)

Heaton, John Henniker

Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Hedderwick, Thos. Chas. H.

Palmer, Sir Chas. M. (Durham)

Causton, Richard Knight

Helder, Augustus

Paulton, James Mellor

Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland)

Cawley, Frederick

Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter

Pease, H. Pike (Darlington)

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

Hill, Rt. Hn. A. Staveley(Staffs.

Pease, J. A. (Northumberland.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.)

Hoare, E. Brodie (Hampstead)

Penn, John

Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Perks, Robert William

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

Horniman, Frederick John

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Charrington, Spencer

Houldsworth, Sir Win. Henry

Pierpoint, Robert

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Howard, Joseph

Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs, SW

Coghill, Douglas Harry

Howell, William Tudor

Pirie, Duncan V.

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Hozier, Hon. Jas. Henry Cecil

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Colomb, Sir John C. Ready

Hutton, John (Yorks, N.R.)

Plunkett, Rt. Hn. H. Curzon

Colston, Chas. E. H. Athole

Jenkins, Sir John Jones

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glas.)

Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

Pretyman, Ernest George

Cornwallis, Fiennes S. W.

Johnson-Ferguson, JabezEdw.

Priestley, Sir W. O. (Edin.)

Courtney, Rt. Hon. L. H.

Johnston, William (Belfast)

Provand, Andrew Dryburgh

Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge

Joliffe, Hon. H. George

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward.

Cranborne, Viscount

Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

Purvis, Robert

Cripps, Charles Alfred

Kearley, Hudson E.

Pym, C. Guy

Crombie, John William

Kemp, George

Rankin, Sir James

Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

Kimber, Henry

Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

Cross, Hbt. Shepherd (Bolton)

Knowles, Lees

Reid, Sir Robert Threshie

Cruddas, William Donaldson

Lafone, Alfred

Renshaw, Charles Bine

Currie, Sir Donald

Langley, Batty

Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W.

Curzon, Viscount

Lawrence, Sir E Durning-(Corn)

Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Charles T.

Dalbiac, Colonel Philip Hugh

Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Dalkeith, Earl of

Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)

Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Lecky, Rt. Hn. William Ed. H.

Rothschild, Hon. Lionel W.

Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatm

Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

Russell, Gen. F. S.(Cheltenham)

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardign

Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

Denny, Colonel

Leighton, Stanley

Rutherford, John

Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon

Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset)

Ryder, John Herbert Dudley

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

Doxford, William Theodore

Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Liverpool)

Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Duckworth, James

Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

Savory, Sir Joseph

Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

Lowe, Francis William

Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard

Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Hart-

Lowles, John

Seely, Charles Hilton

Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

Lubbock, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Sharpe, William Edward T.

Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph D.

Lyell, Sir Leonard

Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)

Evans, Sir F. H. (South'ton)

Macartney, W. G. Ellison

Sidebottom, Wm. (Derbysh.)

Fardell, Sir T. George

Macdona, John Cumming

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Farquharson, Dr. Robert

Maclean, James Mackenzie

Sinclair, Capt. Jn. (Forfarsh.)

Fenwick, Charles

M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

Fergusson, Rt. Hn Sir J (Manc'r)

M'Calmont, H. L. B. (Cambs.)

Smith, Abel H. (Christchurch)

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

M'Calmont, Col. J.(Antrim, E.

Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks.)

508

509

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Ward, Hon. Robert A. (Crewe)

Wrightson, Thomas

Spencer, Ernest

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Wylie, Alexander

Stanley, Edward J. (Somerset)

Warr, Augustus Frederick

Wyndham, George

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Webster, Sir Richard E.

Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

Strachey, Edward

Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.

Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

Thornton, Percy M.

Williams, J. Powell- (Birm.)

Young, Commander (Berks, E.)

Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Younger, William

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull)

Yoxall, James Henry

Tritton, Charles Ernest

Wilson John (Falkirk)

Usborne, Thomas

Wilson, John (Govan)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

Valentia, Viscount

Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

Sir William Walrond, and Mr. Anstruther.

Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Wallace, Robert

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

NOES.

Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N.E.)

Gibney, James

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Allison, Robert Andrew

Gilhooly, James

Pickard, Benjamin

Ambrose, Robert

Hayden, John Patrick

Power, Patrick Joseph

Blake, Edward

Healy, Maurice (Cork)

Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.

Caldwell, James

Jacoby, James Alfred

Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

Cameron, Sir Chas. (Glasgow)

Jordan, Jeremiah

Tuite, James

Channing, Francis Allston

Labouchere, Henry

Wedderburn, Sir William

Commins, Andrew

Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'land)

Weir, James Galloway

Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)

Lloyd-George, David

Williams, John Carvell (Notts.

Daly, James

Lowther, Rt. Hon. J. (Kent)

Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

Davitt, Michael

Macaleese, Daniel

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Donelan, Captain A.

M'Cartan, Michael

Mr. Dillon, and Mr. Wm. Redmond.

Doogan, P. C.

M'Ghee, Richard

Flavin, Michael Joseph

M'Hugh, P. A. (Leitrim)

WAYS AND MEANS.
Considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)

WAYS AND MEANS.

  EXCHEQUER BILLS.
  THE CHANCELLOR, OF THE EXCHEQUER (Sir M. HICKS-BEACH,): Of course it is not my intention on the present occasion to make any review, which would be entirely premature, of the finances of the year, nor do I propose to dwell at all upon the general financial situation of the country. All my duty to-day is to ask the Committee to provide ways and means for the expenditure which has been sanctioned by Parliament since the date of the introduction of my Budget. In balancing my Budget for the present year I estimated the revenue of the year at £111,157,000, and the expenditure at £110,927,000, leaving a margin for contingencies of £230,000. Since that time the House has sanctioned a Supplementary Estimate, in July, to the extent of £278,000, and, of course, there is the large unforeseen expenditure of £10,000,000 for the Army in South Africa, which was sanctioned on Friday night, making a total expenditure of £121,205,000. In my estimate of revenue I estimated for
  510
  an increase in the current year over the revenue of the year 1898–99 of £2,821,000. I anticipated that by far the largest part of that amount would be derived from the first half of the year, for this reason—that the first half of 1898–99 showed an exceedingly lean yield to the revenue; in fact, so much was that the case, that I remember at the close of the second quarter of that year there were the most doleful prognostications as to the general financial result of the whole year. Therefore, of course, I had reason to anticipate, looking to the progress of the revenue, and in particular to the condition of trade, that there would be a very considerable increase in the first part of the current year over the similar period in 1898–99. The second half of 1898–99 was a very prosperous period for the revenue, which increased, to use an old phrase, by leaps and bounds, and it would be utterly unreasonable to anticipate anything like the same increase over the second six months of 1898–99 as, happily, occurred over the first six months of the year. I have found, I am glad to say, that as regards the first six months of the current year the increase of revenue has largely exceeded our expectations, and the net result, after making a fair allowance for the ordinary Supplementary Esti

  511
  mates, which, of course, must be required apart from war expenditure altogether, in February next, I think, amounts to this—that so far as we can judge at the present time we may fairly reckon upon a net surplus for the whole year of £3,000,000, to be applied to the purposes of the unforeseen expenditure in South Africa. That, I think the Committee will see, will be, if my anticipations are realised, a very considerable contribution from the existing taxation of the country towards the Vote which was sanctioned by the Committee last Friday. Now, Sir, we have to consider how the remainder of that Vote shall be provided. I should hope that no member of the Committee would suggest that that war expenditure—though it be about to be incurred in a war which, unquestionably, is of greater magnitude than any in which we have been engaged for some time past—yet I hope that no one will suggest that this is a case in which it should be provided for by a permanent addition to the Debt of the country. To my mind, no such permanent addition would be justifiable, except, of course, in the event, which I hope we shall never see in our time, of a war with a first-class Power. But it is necessary to provide in the first place for this sum of £7,000,000 by borrowing—in fact, by a temporary addition to the floating debt.[Ministerial cheers.] Hon. Members must not be "too previous" in this matter; I have not yet completed my statement. I propose to ask the Committee for power to raise for this purpose a sum not exceeding £8,000,000 by Treasury bills. I should explain, as there has been misapprehension on this subject, that, of course, it would not be my intention to place anything like that amount of Treasury bills on the market at once. Such bills as may be necessary from time to time to meet the requirements of the War Office would be placed on the market as the opportunity might arise, and I am glad to be able to add that, having communicated with the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, I find that they will be able to place at my disposal in the course of the present quarter, and to a greater extent in the course of the next quarter, very considerable sums out of the funds in their hands belonging to the Savings Bank deposits; so I hope there will be no apprehension of any undue disturbance of
  512
  the money market by the process to which I have referred. It may be asked, "As you propose to borrow £7,000,000, or whatever it may be—"[AN HON. MEMBER: Eight millions.] I said I proposed to ask power to borrow eight, but I do not myself anticipate that it will be necessary to exercise that power beyond seven. But I wish to have a margin. Some may say, "Why, as you propose to borrow for this purpose, should not you obtain the means you require by a suspension of the arrangement for the repayment of the Debt?" Well, there is a very good answer to that question. Although I never could persuade a good many hon. Members of this House to believe it last session, I am not disposed by any means to frequent interference with the machinery for the repayment of our Debt. I do not deny that circumstances might arise in which what happened in 1885 might be very properly repeated—namely, the suspension of the repayment of the capital which is wrapped up in the payments made on account of terminable annuities held by the public departments for the period, we may say, of a year. That was done in 1885, and, if similar circumstances should occur, of course it might be done again, but that is a process which can only be usefully carried out at the commencement of a financial year. The reason is this, and I think it will commend itself even to those who are least disposed to support the maintenance of an adequate sinking fund. It so happens that the great bulk of the repayments, on account of these terminable annuities, is made in the earlier half of the year, and therefore, when seven months of the year have expired, to suspend repayment of the capital wrapped up in these payments would be a process which would produce very little indeed for the Exchequer, while, at the same time, I think it would be unreasonable to anticipate that the machinery for the repayment of the Debt would nearly provide anything like the means I require. Further, I wish, to point out to the Committee that I look upon this borrowing as a purely temporary matter. As I have already stated, I could not consent to regard it as permanent borrowing; it is borrowing for which provision will have to be made by Parliament to repay the sum borrowed as soon as may be possible. Now I come to a question of great

  513
  importance and of some difficulty. I am asking the Committee to place the means at my disposal for borrowing the sums required. Ought we at the same time to provide for paying off the sums so borrowed? That is a question which if asked at the commencement of a financial year could receive but one answer. Of course, if we had known in April last that we should have been called upon to provide for an expenditure of £10,000,000 for a war in South Africa, I should have felt bound to provide for it out of the resources of the year. But the question assumes a very different aspect when it is asked within five months of the close of the financial year, and I feel quite sure that even Mr. Gladstone, if he were among us now, would admit that, under such circumstances, it is practically impossible to provide for anything like that amount out of the resources of the current year. Why is it impossible? Because when five months alone of the current year have to expire you are absolutely limited and fenced in, as it were, with regard to the possibilities of new taxation. This is, of course, a temporary expenditure, which should be met by temporary taxation; but who would dream of imposing a new indirect tax at this period of the year, with five months only to run? Such a tax would certainly do infinitely more harm to commerce and trade than could be compensated for by any addition that might accrue from it to the revenue. Or again, supposing it was suggested that we should raise money by an addition to some existing subjects of indirect taxation, what would happen? Obviously this. With regard, at any rate, to most of those subjects, the traders interested in them would reduce their stocks in the country to the lowest possible point during the period for which the temporary additional taxation lasted, and they would carefully abstain from clearances of those articles during that period, so that the result would be that the Exchequer for the rest of the year, or during the period it was hoped to obtain revenue, would obtain very little, if any, of that additional duty, and would probably lose, in addition, much of the original duty upon the article upon which we endeavoured to put additional taxation. I am quite sure that any student of our financial history during the past ten years will remember the unfortunate result of the attempt—the very proper attempt—of the right
  514
  hon. Gentleman the Member for West Monmouth in 1894 to impose an additional tax on spirits. I believe the result of that attempt was that the trade was disorganised, and hardly any appreciable addition was made to the revenue for the period for which the tax was imposed. Of course these reasons have weighed with our predecessors under similar circumstances to those under which we now stand, and hence it resulted that when, in 1867, Lord Beaconsfield had to provide for the unforeseen expenditure in the case of the Abyssinian war, and when, in 1884, Mr. Gladstone had to provide also for unforeseen expenditure, in the autumn, in the case of the Bechuanaland and Soudan expeditions, both of these statesmen, although they levied additional taxation in order to provide for that expenditure, levied it only from one source—namely, the income tax. They imposed an additional penny on the income tax at that time. But, Sir, there is one matter in connection with the income tax which, I think, we are bound to take into consideration. The income tax, of course, is essentially a war tax. It has always been considered so for the simple reason that it is more easily increased than any other tax, because it can be increased or reduced again without any interference with trade. But in 1867, and, I think, also in 1884, the income tax stood at 5d. in the £. The addition of a penny only made it 6d. Our income tax now stands at 8d. in the £ Now, I am very far from saying that if, on the introduction of the Budget, it was necessary to ask Parliament to provide for war expenditure by additional taxation, the fact that the income tax stood at 8d. at the time ought to deter the Committee from increasing it. On the contrary, however high the income tax may stand, it would be the duty of the income tax payer to take his full share—and I think a very full share—in providing for such additional expenditure in common with the other taxpayers of the country. But, Sir, if I were now, with the income tax standing at 8d. in the £, to propose to increase it by a penny, and to propose that additional taxation alone, I must say that the income-tax payer would have some fair cause of complaint. At any rate, such a thing ought not to be done without the most absolute necessity. The question

  515
  for us to-day is, whether there is such clear proof of that necessity, and whether our duty requires us to do it. Sir, there are some points—there is one point, at any rate—connected with this war which, I think—at least, it is my hope—differentiates it from other wars in which this country has been generally engaged. In the first place, I hope that the Estimates which have been sanctioned by the Committee, and which were so admirably expained the other night by my hon. friend the Under Secretary for War, have been more carefully and accurately framed than has been the case with Estimates in some previous campaigns. Of course it is possible that these Estimates may be exceeded; no one can be certain of accurately foreseeing the total cost of such a war as that in which we are now engaged. But they have been, I am sure, framed with the utmost possible accuracy and care. So far things have turned out well; our troops have had brilliant successes; our colonists are loyal; the natives are quiet, and although there may be something in to-day's news, for example, which gives us cause for anxiety, yet we must remember that every day that passes brings us nearer the time when we shall possess an over whelming force in South Africa, and I see no reason whatever to anticipate that the campaign may not be brought to a successful termination well within the period to which the Estimates have referred. Well, Sir, I was not referring so much to the accuracy of the Estimates, when I alluded to the special character of this war, as to another matter. No one could possibly have imagined when we embarked on the Abyssinian War, or the Soudan Expedition, that the whole of the cost of these wars would not fall upon this country. Well, now, Sir, whatever may be the cost of this war, it is, at any rate, not certain that the whole cost of it, or what amount of the cost of it, will fall upon this country. Our colonies have been invaded by the South African Republic, and it would be consistent with all the laws of war if, when it is brought to a successful termination, the Transvaal taxpayers should have to bear something, at any rate, of the cost. The Transvaal is wealthy in its possession of gold. I know it has been among the complaints of those interested in the goldfields that their taxation has been excessive, but I believe, at any rate, from the
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  best information that I can obtain, that under a pure and honest Government it will be perfectly possible for the Transvaal not only to bear the ordinary expenses of government and to provide for the maintenance of peace and order within that territory, but also to provide a reasonable sum towards the expenses which we may incur in this war, consistently with a reduction in the taxation of the goldfields. However, I do not wish at all to press this matter beyond what I have already said. It is, perhaps, premature to refer to it at all, but it is an element which ought properly to enter into our consideration when we are judging when and how much we should impose upon the taxpayers of this country in payment of the expenses of the war, while the future is still uncertain. Now, for these reasons it appears to us that we should on the whole be wisely acting if we did not attempt at the present moment to levy what could only be a small portion of the sum which we propose to borrow from a tax which would certainly not be equal in its incidence. We think it would be better that the consideration of the precise manner in which the sum to be borrowed should be repaid should be postponed until what seems to be the proper season for the consideration of such a subject, namely, next April, on the introduction of the Budget. I have, in what I have said, formed, perhaps, an unduly favourable anticipation of the end of this war. It may be so; but even if my anticipations should not be realised, even if we should meet with reverses, if the war should be prolonged, if the sum voted on Friday last should be but a part of what this country may ultimately have to pay—why, then we shall appeal to the patriotism of the people next April, and we shall rely that those who have supported us so loyally in the prosecution of this work will not fail us when the proper time comes to pay the bill. But, Sir, I have one word more to say. I will not attempt to conceal from the Committee that the point on which I have dwelt has been one which has given myself and my colleagues in the Government much anxious consideration. I am aware that financial considerations may well be pleaded which would favour a resort to the action of 1867 and 1884; but, Sir, though I am Chancellor of the Exchequer, I feel that I have higher

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  duties than mere financial considerations. It would be impossible at the present time for anyone, however great his financial ability, to deal completely with our system of taxation, or impose a new burden equitably upon all the taxpayers; it would be impossible for us to propose new taxation in this House without causing differences of opinion, prolonging debate, and possibly divisions which might be entirely misunderstood out of doors. Sir, although I am Chancellor of the Exchequer, and although I give as great weight as any of my predecessors to financial considerations, I yet feel that I have a higher duty as a Minister of the Crown, and I will not at such a crisis as this take any course which would aid in promoting divisions in this House or hinder us in presenting a united front at this crisis and in this matter to the world. Sir, I beg to move the resolution of which I have given notice.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That towards raising the Supply granted to Her Majesty, the Treasury be authorised to raise any sum not exceeding eight million pounds by the issue of Treasury bills."—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Sir, on every occasion when the Chancellor of the Exchequer makes a statement of the kind to which we have listened, and concludes by moving a resolution or resolutions, it is unusual for the Committee immediately to proceed upon a detailed and critical examination of the proposals he has made. It is usual to allow the discussion to stand over to another day, although, as we have been reminded by the invariable motion which has been moved on behalf of the Government and carried in the House to-night, it is necessary that if any tax is imposed or relieved a resolution on that point should be passed in the House on this first night. But the right hon. Gentleman has now introduced another reason why the debate on this occasion should be very restricted in its extent. I should have been prepared myself, I am bound to say, from the same motives which he explained as having actuated him, almost whatever the right hon. Gentleman had proposed, unless there had been something beyond the ordinary degree of novelty and of a startling nature, to acquiesce without dis-
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  cussion. I am profoundly impressed with what he said, that these are not days in which we can discuss, not only with advantage to ourselves, but with advantage to the country, the details of the policy of the Government. Her Majesty's Government are responsible for everything that goes on at this moment; they are responsible for the proceedings of the war; they are responsible also for the method of raising the money to pay for those proceedings, and I do not think it would be wise, even if it were possible, for the House to interfere in any degree with that responsibility. But the right hon. Gentleman has taken away from us anything about which we could contend. I have heard something said, not, I think, very long ago, about someone who spoke with two voices. Such a position does occasionally occur, and necessarily occur. The right hon. Gentleman has been bi-vocal to-night to a considerable extent; he has been speaking with two voices. But he has finally come to a conclusion which I certainly think is most consistent with the patriotic feeling which prevails among us all at this moment, and which is most consistent also with the interests of the proper discussion of this matter in this House; because, as the right hon. Gentleman pointed out, it is in March or April, and not until then, that those Members of the House who take deep interest in financial matters will be in a position to discuss fully the financial situation into which the country is brought by this large expenditure. Therefore, Sir, I have risen merely for the purpose of congratulating the right hon. Gentleman and acquiescing in the proposals that he has made, and, although hon. Members may be prepared to make observations on some part of his statement—a statement, I may say, in which it appears to me a great deal of sound financial doctrine was included—I trust that there will not be anything of a hostile or angry discussion.
  MR. DILLON: I cannot agree with the observations which have just been made, nor with the rules that have been laid down by the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to the proper time when the financial proposals of the Government should be considered. The right hon. Gentleman has stated that the proper time for discussing this Vote for the conduct of the war will be on April 1 next,

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  when the Budget proposals are made. In the speech with which the Chancellor of the Exchequer introduced the resolution which he has just moved he admitted that, in the course which he has now adopted, he is departing from all the more recent precedents. He admitted that on two previous occasions—once, I think, when a Liberal Government was in power, and on another occasion, in 1867, when the Government of the late Lord Beaconsfield was in power—the course taken by the then Government when they proposed a large War Vote was to make part provision on the spot, and not at the commencement of the financial year, and that is and has been the practice of successive Governments since the income tax came to be a fixed institution in this country, and since it came to be regarded—as the Chancellor of the Exchequer regards it—above all things as a war tax. Therefore, the first position which I desire to take up is this—that in the course which the Chancellor of the Exchequer now proposes, he is departing from the precedents of previous Governments, and from precedents set not alone by Governments supported by the Radical party, but by Governments supported by the party opposite. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has admitted this himself, and he gave two reasons in justification of the departure from the precedent which he is now asking us to adopt. The first reason was this: that whereas in 1867 the income tax stood at 4d., it now stands at 8d. That is perfectly true; but whose fault is that? In the discussions which have taken place during the last few years the income-tax in time of profound peace has been forced up from 4d. to 5d., 6d., 7d., and to 8d., which ought to be only a war figure. We are only a small minority on this side of the House, but we have persistently protested against the system of stereotyping the income tax at 8d. in the £ during a time of peace. If that high income tax had been the result of any honest attempt on the part of the Ministers of the day to equalise the financial burdens of Ireland, or to readjust the whole system of taxation of this country so that the great injustice from which the masses of this country as well as the people of Ireland suffer, owing to the undue weight of indirect taxation, then I should not object to an eightpenny income-tax. But the eightpenny income tax in times of peace
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  has been the result not of any generous or large scheme for the readjustment of taxation, but it has been the result of a persistent increase of military and naval expenditure, which, I believe, is largely responsible for the hideous, cruel, and unjust war in which this country is now engaged. Therefore, I say that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has not an atom or shred of justification for the position he has now taken up that because the income tax is 8d. in the £ the income-tax payers ought not to be called upon, as they have been called upon in the past when war has been threatened or declared, to bear their share of the burden. When the right hon. Gentleman says that this is not the time to discuss these matters, I reply that this is the time, and that no other opportunity will be given for the proper discussion of the question as to who is to bear the burden of this war, because the proper time to discuss it is at the very outset of these proceedings. When we approach the consideration of this question we are entitled to ask, and we do ask, Who are the people in this country who have engineered this war, and who have clamoured for this war? They are mainly the income-tax payers—and the wealthy income-tax payers—and I say, therefore, in the interest of peace and in the interest of justice it is a matter of vital importance that those who have engineered and are responsible for this war ought to be made to feel, at the earliest possible moment, the cost of the war in their own pockets. If the income-tax payers had known and realised that this war would mean an instant increase of apenny or twopence in the income tax they would not have been so clamorous during the last few months, and their patriotism—or mock patriotism—would have been considerably cooled, for there is no patriotism in attacking a weak State like the Transvaal. This has always been a principle preached by the great men who in past years spoke for the Radical and Liberal party of this country, who have not been afraid to face howling mobs and be denounced as traitors, as John Bright was, and as Mr. Gladstone was when he had his windows smashed in this city by the patriots of that day, just as if he had been a mere Irish traitor. It has been the doctrine laid down by those men who were the leaders of the Liberal party in those days, that the surest safeguard against militarism and the undue ten-

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  dency of popular excitement to thrust nations into war was to take the earliest opportunity of bringing home to the taxpayers the cost of war; and I say that it is a vicious and evil system to resort to devices such as those to which we have just listened from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which push off to an indefinite future the cost of these military operations. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that he would not, as was suggested by The Times newspaper, suspend the Sinking Fund, and that he would make only a temporary addition to the Debt. I suppose the idea is to leave that temporary addition until a Radical Government comes in.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: I am afraid I may not have made myself clear on that point. My intention is that this debt shall be by no means of long duration. I think it ought to be provided for, if necessary, of course, by an addition to taxation. I hope it may be paid off in the year following next year, or even sooner.
  MR. DILLON: That is a very important change in the statement, because I confess I formed from the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the opinion that there was no limit at all to the period in which the addition should be paid off, and that it might stand for years. While, however, the Chancellor of the Exchequer did give strong reasons—reasons which I admit frankly, without pretending to be a financial authority, to be overwhelming—against increasing the taxation of the country in the middle of the financial year, he gave no reason for not adding a penny to the income tax, thereby bringing home to the gentlemen who wished for war the cost of it. This morning there was no war-whoop in the press, but a howl of anguish for fear the rich people of this country should be asked to pay for the war, and an ingenious personage, who hides his great personality under the title of "Financier," and who proposes to reorganise the financial policy of the kingdom, comes to the rescue and points out how dangerous it would be to dare to attempt to put the burden of this war on direct taxation. I am entitled at the present moment to oppose the proposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer all the more as I have a proposal to make myself which will, I think, solve the diffi-
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  culty for him. I would suggest that, following the example of one of England's greatest Ministers, he should propose to the wealthy classes of this country, who by a large majority are in favour of this war, to make loyal gifts to the Government to prove the reality of their patriotism. I do not attach much importance to platform speeches coming from men who neither take part in the fighting or in paying for it in anything like proportion to their means. When I read these telegrams now pouring in from the Transvaal I feel affected with the deepest possible sorrow, and I say deliberately I am affected equally, if not more, for the Boers as for your troops. The sufferings of the hundreds now lying wounded on those hills ought to affect every one of us, to whichever party we belong, and I think some of the patriotic gentlemen who confine their contributions towards the war to cowardly, blackguardly, and false charges against their enemies, and who take particularly good care to keep out of the range of the Boer rifles, and who howl loudly when called upon to pay, are not adding to the dignity and honour of this country, or contributing to the strength and self-respect of this Empire. For my part I prefer the views of a soldier who spoke here the other night, who has, I have no doubt, taken part in actions, who knows what war means, who would, if duty called, be willing to fight again, and who has learned the lesson which every gallant soldier learns—that the way to fight is not by staying at home and giving vent to blackguardly calumnies against an honourable and gallant enemy. I have been drawn into these observations by speeches which have been made in the House and outside it. My proposal, in the first place, is to offer to these patriots a chance of being able to show the amount of their patriotism by planking down some of their millions for the carrying on of this war. This country is rich in millionaires and wealthy men; why should they not prove the sincerity of their views on this war? Some days ago there was witnessed a demonstration in the streets of London which aroused great enthusiasm, though why it should surpasses my feeble understanding. It consisted of 500 stockbrokers marching to the Guildhall meeting with the Union Jack at their head. That was paraded in

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  The Times newspaper as a magnificent demonstration of loyalty. These gentlemen made the war, and I would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to meet part of the cost of it by a fresh tax on the Stock Exchange. They have made millions out of the Rand, and no wonder they shout for war. They are not going to run the risks which the Irish soldiers whom you sent to the front run.
  MR. WILLIAM JOHNSTON: The Irish soldiers did splendidly.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Why do you not go out and fight yourself?
  MR. DILLON: On that point I am for once at one with the hon. Member for South Belfast. Our countrymen have always been in the front in the wars of England, and no man can say that they ever turned their backs. But you must pardon us if we feel bitterly when we remember, with regard to these men, whose reckless bravery probably saved your troops from terrible disaster, that for years and years the only reward you have given to their devotion has been that you have torn roof-trees off the homes of their fathers. These are the men on whose loyalty and valour the existence of your troops at Ladysmith and Glencoe is now depending. When they come back to Ireland they may find their mothers on the roadside starving, while the forces of your Crown are destroying their roof-trees and hearths. And so it has been through the whole of this century. In every battlefield where the flag of England was carried to victory our countrymen occupied a foremost rank, and never put to shame the traditional valour of their race; and even the Iron Duke himself said that in every battlefield in the Peninsula, and at Waterloo itself, you could have achieved very little without the Irish troops. Still, those are the men who, throughout this century, you could find no better fate for than extermination. [SEVERAL HON. MEMBERS: No, no!] Yes; that has been going on until the population of Ireland has been reduced to its present level.
  *THE CHAIRMAN: I must remind the hon. Member that the question before the Committee is one of finance.
  MR. DILLON: But this is part of the question, because it is part of your policy in the extermination of these people. However, I admit frankly, it is somewhat of a digression. These are times when men's feelings are stirred, and I confess I find it difficult to understand how these transactions can be made subjects for laughter and sneering, though I am sure the hon. and gallant Member for Newport does not view them in that way. When I read the long list of slain in these, two Irish regiments I recalled what was said to a friend of mine the other day in Ireland by the sister of one of the colour-sergeants—"I hope my brother will come out, safe, because I wish he were fighting in a better cause." Now I come to the third suggestion which I desire to make to the right hon. Gentleman, and I confess I lean more on it than on the others. There are at least twenty millionaires—many of them multi-millionaires—who have made their fortunes within the last ten years on the Rand—mark you, under the oppressive laws of President Kruger and his plundering Government. They came as poor strangers to the Transvaal, many of them Germans and Jews. I have no objection to Jews. I have great respect for their race, and respect their ability and history, which in many ways is analogous, to the history of our own Irish race. The Jews have always received generous treatment in Ireland. When hunted down in the streets of this country, they never were persecuted in Ireland. [HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!] Yes, that is perfectly true. I read the statement of a learned Jewish Rabbi that the records of his people showed that they never were persecuted in Ireland. And, therefore, I do not speak with any hostility against the Jews. But there are twenty millionaires—largely German by nationality, and largely Jewish. Now, why should not these gentlemen, who have undoubtedly brought about this war, who have throughout worked for this war, and who look to profit by this war to increase their millions—why should they not pay for the war? Why should not the right hon. Gentleman send a circular, beginning with Mr. Rhodes, to all the men who are reported to be worth more than a million, and enquire from them how much they will contribute towards the cost of the war? I think it would be a very moderate thing if these

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  gentlemen gave £500,000 apiece; in fact, it would be a mere trifle to them. If they put down half a million apiece the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be relieved from all embarrassment. If we should see our way to strongly recommend that suggestion to the right hon. Gentleman, I think it would recommend itself to the people of this country. I see no reason why any portion of the cost of this war should be thrown on either of two classes—the taxpayers of this country or the general body of the taxpayers of the Transvaal. The war was certainly not undertaken for the benefit of the taxpayers of the Transvaal, and nothing in my judgment could be possibly more iniquitous, except the inauguration of the war itself, than the proposal hinted at by the Chancellor of the Exchequer of making these poor people pay for it. The Transvaal Government might have done what the Chartered Company have done with your approval, and demanded 50 per cent. of the whole profits of the mines. Is it not a monstrous instance of humbug and hypocrisy to talk of the plundering of the miners, when you know that the treatment of the gold miners on the Rand is five times as generous as the treatment of the gold miners in Rhodesia? Certainly no part of the cost of the war ought to be laid on the shoulders of the Transvaal farmers. I hold also that no part of the cost ought to be borne by the working people of this country, for, although I regret to observe that the false statements and pretexts which have been put forward in behalf of this war—that it is a war of liberty and for the franchise—have deceived a section of the working people of this country, it is only a section—such as in Newcastle and other places. That section believes that this is a democratic war in favour of liberty, although no more monstrous and malignant falsehoods were ever put forward than by one section of the press which has certainly run the Yellow press of America neck and neck. Through the horrible lies poured out on the people of the country against the unhappy Boers by that press, the Government have undoubtedly succeeded in deceiving a section of the people into the belief that this is a righteous war. But I am happy to say that the discussions in this House have proved beyond all question that the majority of the people are against this war. Every one of the working men representatives objects to it. Notwithstanding all the threatening
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  letters, violent speeches, and breaking up of meetings, and all the other infamous machinery, the Government has not succeeded in getting one single working-man representative to sanction the war. ["Question!"] It is the question. I claim, therefore, that the working classes of this country, by a large majority, are innocent of the blood of this war, which sooner or later will be brought home to those who really brought about the war. I do not name them, Sir; everyone knows to whom I refer. Therefore, from the debates which have taken place, and the action of the working men representatives in this House, the working classes of the country ought not to be called upon to pay any share of the expenses of this war. The men who ought to pay for this war are the men who made it, and it would teach them to be a little more charitable and more peaceable in the future, and prevent the shame, the degradation of embarking in other wars if they themselves were made to pay the bill. These are the suggestions I have to make to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and in doing so I have discharged my conscience. I would like to say one word in conclusion, although I know very well that I may be ruled out of order in doing so. There is another class of persons who ought not to be called upon to bear any share of the cost of this iniquitous war, and who, if there is any resort to indirect taxation, will be called upon to pay it, that is, the people of Ireland. In spite of all I have seen in this morning's Times, and in spite of the speech of the hon. Member for North Armagh, we in Ireland abominate, we hate this war; we consider it unjust, cruel, and cowardly. It is said that the Irish Unionists are in favour of it, but I know personally many Unionists who take the same view as we do; although I believe the majority are with the war, and more shame to them. They are mostly of the same religion as the Boers, and they are never tired of calling us bigoted Catholics, although we want to see these Protestants free. We Irish Members speak here for the taxpayers of Ireland; we look upon this war as a crime against humanity, as unjust, cruel, and cowardly, inasmuch as you are pouring the enormous resources of this Empire against an untrained people, who are leaving their homesteads to take part

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  in it. Not only is this war fraught with dishonour and disgrace to every one concerned in it, but it adds fresh alarm and horror to the feeling of the people of Ireland. When we see our own countrymen in the van of battle, brave—brave as we are all proud to see them, even when forced to fight in an unjust cause; when we read of the long list of our dead and wounded countrymen in this hideous and cruel war, our feelings are redoubled and intensified. I say it would be an act of oppression, against which the Irish representatives in this House are bound to protest at every stage, and by every means in their power, if any share of the cost of this atrocious war of plunder, piracy, and robbery were imposed upon them.
  *SIR JOHN LUBBOCK: I do not rise to follow the hon. Member who has just sat down in the speech which he has delivered, and which was in the nature of a long digression. There is one part, however, of the speech of the hon. Member with which I entirely agree, and that is where he said that this is an unjust war. I believe that it is an unjust war, but the hon. Member, it seems to me, has entirely forgotten by whom the war was begun. I have been a Member of this House for some twenty-five years with the hon. Member, and I have heard a great many of his eloquent speeches, and listened to them with great attention, but he will allow me to say that I regret he is not more moderate in his tone. I wish he would sometimes attempt to do more justice to his fellow countrymen. In that case his speeches would have more effect in this House and the country. It is deplorable, under existing circumstances, when Englishmen, Scotsmen, and Irishmen are fighting side by side, that the hon. Member cannot restrain his hatred of England. But we are now discussing the financial proposals of Her Majesty's Government, and I have risen simply to congratulate my right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the very satisfactory statement which he has been able to make with reference to the finances of the country. I think it must have come as an agreeable surprise to many of us that we have reason to hope that the revenue of the year will be £3,000,000 more than the estimate. That is no discredit to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. My right hon. friend was perfectly justified
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  in keeping on the right side, and the result will certainly be most satisfactory to the people of this country. I have always been one of those in this House who have been most anxious that we should meet the expenditure of the year by the revenue of the year, and do something to reduce the Debt. It is of the greatest possible importance that we should reduce the National Debt in times of peace, and perhaps we might have effected more in that direction than we have done. One reason why I have been so anxious that we should reduce the Debt in times of peace is that we might have a nest-egg when times of stress came upon us. I think it would have been very inconvenient to the country, and unwise, if the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had at the present moment attempted to interfere with the taxation of the country. It is much better that we should wait till next year, when we shall see much more clearly than now what the outcome will be. I believe the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition expressed what will be the general feeling of the country, when he said that the proposals which Her Majesty's Government had laid before the House are wise and statesmanlike, and will commend themselves to the judgment of the nation.
  *MR. GIBSON BOWLES: The only serious part of the speech of the hon. Gentleman opposite was that in which he spoke of his grief for the loss of the Irish soldiers who are engaged in this war in the Transvaal. But let not the hon. Gentleman suppose that he and his friends are alone in this feeling of grief. We share to the full the grief for their loss, and the admiration for their gallantry.
  HON. MEMBERS FROM THE IRISH BENCHES: Why don't you treat them better? Why do you give them an Irish workhouse when they return?
  *MR. GIBSON BOWLES: But many an English home too is now desolate, and many an English soldier lies side by side with the Irish on the Transvaal hills, and if English Members of this House are not so eloquent, or do not parade their feelings so often as hon. Gentlemen opposite, they feel none the less sad that Englishmen, Scotsmen, and Irishmen lie side by side, having given up their lives for the sake of England and the future of liberty,

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  and even sadder that Irish Members whose fellow-countrymen have there stood shoulder to shoulder with ours, should here take advantage of the situation to parade their hatred of the country that gives them a seat in this House. Sir, I come to the Vote. I suppose there never was an emergency such as this in the history of this country, and never was a Chancellor of the Exchequer so justified in taking exceptional measures to deal with that emergency. My own view is that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has taken the right method of dealing with this financial question. He proposes, first of all, to take the surplus of three millions which he expects to have at the end of the financial year, but while he proposes to do that he must bear in mind that only half of the year has expired, and he should not count too surely on that amount, for it is extremely likely that the second half-year will not warrant him in doing so. This sum of three millions, or whatever it may prove to be, is, whatever may be said to the contrary, practically an addition to the permanent Debt of the country, because if there is to be a surplus at the end of the year of revenue over expenditure that surplus, automatically, according to our financial system, would go to the old Sinking Fund in diminution of the National Debt. The remainder he proposes to raise by means of Treasury bills, not many of which, I presume, will be put on the market, but will be taken up by the Departments, or disposed of in some such way. The raising of the money by Treasury bills is no doubt a temporary matter, and as such it is right. The Government cannot close the account because they do not know how long the war will last nor how much it will cost, and you cannot say whether European complications will arise, which I am afraid is extremely likely, and the situation generally may become very acute, and result in a considerable struggle for this country, in which case our expenditure would not be ten millions, but might reach a hundred millions or more. The Chancellor of the Exchequer also pointed out that there was some uncertainty as to whether we shall not get some contribution by way of grants-in-aid, or war indemnities. That also I think possible, though not to be counted on to a large extent. I think this sum of ten millions should be treated as a suspense account, leaving the permanent and final revision and settlement and
  530
  charge to be made when the account is closed, or when the Government can form some probable estimate of what the war is likely to cost. Though Members opposite suggest the contrary, the income-tax payers are sure to have to pay their share of this sum, and it has to be remembered that the clamour for the war has come just as strongly from the classes earning less than £160 a year, who pay no income-tax at all. [No, no.] Many of us look upon this war with the utmost horror and lamentation, nor are we proud of the negotiations which have negotiated us into hostility and protocolised us into a war which will be most arduous in its course and most serious in its effects. But all these things lie behind us now. The Boer ultimatum was so unmannerly and insolent as never before was known to history, and as to create a new situation, and those who were most against this war are now most determined to go on with it to the end. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is extremely unfortunate as regards supplementary estimates. Only last year he promised he would bring in no more. That was when his supplementary estimates had averaged two millions, yet now we have a supplementary estimate of ten millions. 1 am very sorry, but at the same time must express my conviction that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has taken the right method of making this a suspense account by proposing in the main a purely temporary loan instead of attempting to impose further taxation, which could only properly be done as part of a general revision and improvement of the present system.
  MR. H. J. WILSON MR. H. J. WILSON,speaking on the proposals of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, said he did not intend to take any part in the discussion, but he wished to be allowed to say he entirely associated himself with the hon. Member for East Mayo in his eloquent denunciation of this war. And he wished to say with respect to the speech of the hon. Member for King's Lynn, when he referred to having addressed meetings of working men, that he also had addressed several meetings of working men, at every one of which resolutions had been passed in favour of a policy with which some of them disagreed. He did not wish to intervene in the debate, but he could not hear the speech of the right hon. Member for the City of London, and the hon. Member for King's Lynn, without saying

  531
  that this war was proceeded with against the views of a considerable body of opinion in this country.
  *SIR F. DIXON-HARTLAND: I cannot help congratulating the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the proposal he has made. This afternoon he has told us of a surplus of three millions which he hopes to obtain, and he has brought in other proposals to secure the remainder of the amount required. I believe the proposals made are the best for our trade and the interests generally of this country. I agree with the hon. Gentleman opposite; I do not see why one class of this country should be called on to pay for this war.
  MR. DAVITT: Make Rhodes pay.
  *SIR F. DIXON-HARTLAND: When the war took place between Germany and France, a heavy tax was put upon France to make her pay for the war she brought about, and I see no reason why the Transvaal, who brought this war upon us—
  MR. DAVITT: No, no! Mr. Chamberlain.
  *SIR F. DIXON-HARTLAND: When they had the chance of preserving peace.
  A VOICE: They had no chance.
  *SIR F. DIXON-HARTLAND: And did not improve it. They sent an ultimatum, which was a most insolent one, and one which never should have been sent; and I think the Transvaal can well afford to pay, and should be made to pay out of its mines, which are very rich. They cannot replace the lives that have been lost through their wicked behaviour, but I hope they will be made to pay for the treasure we have spent.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: The hon. Baronet who has just spoken shouted out a few days ago that the war was to avenge Majuba, an expression which brought upon the hon. Baronet the condemnation of the Leader of the House.
  *SIR F. DIXON-HARTLAND: I beg the hon. Member's pardon. I never made that remark. In reply to the remark of the hon. Member for Montrose, who said that Lord Beaconsfield had brought back peace with honour from Berlin, I said "Not from Majuba," and he chose to misunderstand my remark to enable him to attack the letter of his late chief, Lord Rosebery.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Then the remark was rather better for my case than I thought it was, and more than justified the distinct rebuke administered to the hon. Baronet by the Leader of his own party. In my opinion the Colonial Secretary has been the machinator of this war.
  *THE CHAIRMAN: I must remind the hon. Member that the question before the Committee is a financial one.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Let me congratulate the Chancellor of the Exchequer on having the support of two gentlemen who were among the chief auditors at the Stock Exchange meeting a few days ago. One is the hon. Baronet, and the other the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London.
  *SIR JOHN LUBBOCK: I have not attended any meeting of the Stock Exchange—
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: You spoke at a meeting at which the whole policy of the war was approved.
  *SIR JOHN LUBBOCK: If the hon. Member is referring to the meeting of the citizens of London in the Guildhall, a resolution was passed deploring the war.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I observe that the right hon. Baronet desires to put himself in the position of chief mourner of this war. According to the proposals of the Chancellor of the Exchequer it is quite clear that this war is made in the interests of the rich, and to be paid for by the poor. I am well acquainted with the right hon. Gentleman's views of this war. In 1881 he spoke about the institution of the independence of the Transvaal, and I am glad to see that he has the candour to say that if this war is successful, as, of course, it will be in the long run, a great part of the success will be the recapture of the mines and the payment of the indemnity out of the mines. I submit that this is a great appeal on behalf of the war to the lowest principles of human nature. I join most thoroughly with my hon. friend the Member for East Mayo in stating that the Irish people as a whole—and by that I mean not only Irish Nationalists but a very large proportion of the Unionists—hate and abhor this war. I believe it to be a war in which we shall be called upon out of our wretched poverty to contribute a great deal towards

  533
  that in which we have no interest, and which has been brought about mainly by ingenuity of the Stock Exchange.
  *MR. COHEN: I did not intend to take part in this debate, and I only rise because of the speeches to which we have listened from my hon. friends below the gangway. They seem to have disapproved of my right hon. friend's policy, which he distinctly refrained from expounding because, as I understood him to say, he preferred to defer till next session his decision as to the exact manner in which the cost of this war shall be paid. But he did go so far as to say that one means he would not resort to, and that was to make any increase to the permanent Debt of the country. That being the case, I should have thought such an expression of opinion—which is all that we shall get from my right hon. friend with regard to his present intention of defraying the cost of the war—would have met rather with the concurrence than the disapproval of hon. Gentlemen opposite. Sir, I hope the Committee will give me their indulgence if I refer to some observations which fell from the hon. Member for East Mayo with regard to my community. I think he said that this war was got up in the interest and on behalf of those who speculate in South African shares, many of whom belong to my community. I personally have no knowledge whatever of these matters, because I have never had myself any interest in South African shares. But I think I am entitled to protest against the importation into these discussions of the religious faith of those against whom charges are made, and which importation, I think the hon. Member must be aware if he reflects for a moment, must give pain to many members of a community who have not merited it. These remarks are not inconsistent with the most sincere grief for the loss of, and the most profound admiration for, the exemplary and characteristic valour displayed by many of his countrymen, not for the first time, on behalf of the country for which they fought; a valour which, I believe, in the future will be as conspicuously displayed, should occasion arise, as I am quite sure the whole country recognises it has been displayed on the present occasion.
  MR. DUCKWORTH (Lancashire, Middleton): I have been very strongly impressed, while listening to the state-
  534
  ment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with the perilous position in which he is placed at the present moment. I cannot but think that if the resources of the nation, being, as they have been for the last few years, so great and unprecedented, had been husbanded as a wise Government ought to have husbanded them, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not have found himself before the House in the position in which he stands to-day. If any individual in possession of a prosperous business, and living up to his income, or beyond it, throwing money away on the right and on the left, had, when he came to the pinch through something happening unexpectedly, to resort to means such as are proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer at the present time, one would call that man by a name which, I suppose, is not permissible in this House. Allow me to repudiate the statement made by the hon. Member for King's Lynn. The working people of this country are not in favour of this war; they are very strongly opposed to it. During the last few weeks I have addressed some half-dozen meetings, using what little influence I could (even up to the night before news came that war had broken out) in the interests of peace; and at all those meetings resolutions of a mild character—mild, because it was thought it would not be wise to pass resolutions too strongly in favour of peace—were passed, and passed almost unanimously, in the town represented by the hon. Gentleman who seconded the Address. I therefore repudiate the statement that the working classes, at all events in Lancashire, are in favour of this war. The feeling there is that this war is not necessary—
  *THE CHAIRMAN: This question does not arise at the present time. As I have pointed out once or twice before, the only question at present before the Committee is one dealing with finance.
  MR. DUCKWORTH: Well, Sir, it appears to me that that has been deviated from, and I thought perhaps I might be permitted to take the same course. I will not, however, go further into the necessity or otherwise of the war, but will close by saying that I quite coincide with the statement made by a friend of mine the other day—namely, that if the Rand had been a potato-field instead of a goldfield there would have been no war.
  MR. ALEXANDER CROSS: We have heard with plea-

  535
  sure the news brought by the Chancellor of the Exchequer of a surplus for the current year. I do not share the view that the remaining months of the year will interfere with that surplus, so firm and stable are the foundations of our trade at present. I wonder whether I may say that we in Glasgow entirely approve of the policy that the expenditure on wars ought to be met out of the capital revenue of the year, and that the principle of creating debt which has led us astray in the past will have the same effect in the future. I am glad the Chancellor of the Exchequer has promised that when the time comes to raise the funds for this war the claims of the income-tax payers should be remembered. No doubt the income tax presents a convenient mode of raising money for extraordinary expenditure; but it has now reached such a figure as to indicate that the income tax already bears a large part of the cost of the military and naval preparations which the necessities of the case have called for. I hope, when the time comes, the Chancellor of the Exchequer will deal with the matter in an Imperial sense, and regard the cost of this great national war as one to be borne not by any section of the people, but by the community as a whole. I feel perfectly certain that the citizens of Glasgow, whom I have the honour to represent, will be as willing to bear their share of this expenditure as they are at present to bear the weight of the approval which they give to the policy of the Government. Some one has spoken of the ultimatum of the Boers as an insult to this country. In my view the insult was not the ultimatum, but the motive which lay behind it. To my mind it is a question whether there should be any serious expectation of the taxpayers of this country, whether rich or poor, or both rich and poor, bearing the cost of the war. The resources of the Transvaal are such that, with the savings which would arise from a proper administration, there would be a possibility not only of a reduction of taxation, but also of finding enough to defray the expenses of the war.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: I need not say, as I have always been opposed to our large expenditure upon armaments, that, as I believe this war to be unnecessary, I am naturally opposed to the particular expenditure we are now considering. That is not the question at the present moment. The House having
  536
  already voted the expenditure, the question is solely how the money to meet that expenditure should be raised. The Chancellor of the Exchequer proposes to raise the necessary funds by means of Treasury bills, one of his reasons being that if indirect taxation were imposed for some six months it would unhinge all trade. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself admitted that at least a portion of this money would have to come from the income tax, and therefore I do not see why he should not at once raise that tax by 2d. in the £, which would bring him in£5,000,000, and raise the rest by Treasury bills and deal with that balance next session. I am sorry he does not do this, because it is always desirable when war does take place that those who are in favour of the war should have the fact that they must pay for it brought home to them at once. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has adumbrated the probability of the Transvaal being obliged to pay a portion of this money. I will not say anything about counting chickens before they are hatched, because there is not the slightest doubt that if this war is persevered in, as doubtless it will be, in the end we must be the victors and should be able to dictate terms to the Transvaal. One thing which leads me not strongly to object to the proposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer is the fact that the Boers who are fighting have nothing but their independence; they have small farms, but, probably, very few have any ready money. The money in the Transvaal belongs to the capitalists, and nothing would give me greater pleasure than the thought that we should seize a considerable amount of the money of these capitalists for the purpose of defraying the cost of this war.
  AN HON. MEMBER: Agreed!
  MR. LABOUCHERE: The hon. Member says we are all agreed. Then, perhaps, he will agree with me in saying that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer were to commence that proceeding and at once commandeer the houses of the great South African capitalists in Park Lane, the country—and certainly we on this side of the House—would have no objection. The most important statement uttered by the Chancellor of the Exchequer was that made incidentally to the hon. Member for East Mayo, that the whole expenditure of this war was to be

  537
  paid in the two ensuing financial years. That does away with any supposition that it is to be thrown over a short or long period. We know now that, be that expenditure what it may —
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: The hon. Member misunderstood me. I was referring to the £10,000,000.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: I rejoice that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has assured us that this £10,000,000 is to be paid during the two ensuing financial years, and I can only express the hope that he will carry out that very sound principle, whether the cost of the war be £10,000,000, or £20,000,000 or £30,000,000. While I, for my part, am not going to oppose the proposition of the right hon. Gentleman, I do not agree with his views in regard to income tax and indirect taxation. I think the burden should be put on the shoulders best able to bear it, and as the working men are not in favour of this war I am perfectly convinced they will object to pay for it.
  *MR. JOHN WILSON: It has been stated that this is a war on behalf of the rich which will have to be paid for by the poor. I take the exactly opposite view, that it is a war in defence of the poor, which, under the proposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, will be paid for by the rich. I wish to emphasise one point. In the Transvaal are the richest goldfields in the world, and once British rule is established there, as undoubtedly it will be, there will be such security for industry in that country that it will be very well able to pay any impost that is put upon it. The capitalists there would be much more willing to pay an impost of 5 per cent. on £20,000,000 or £40,000,000, whichever of these sums the war costs, than to remain under the rule of President Kruger. It has been said that this is not a popular war among the working men. There are many of that class in my constituency; they are intensely interested in the war—many have relatives or friends in South Africa—and I have not the slightest hesitation in saying that this is one of the most popular wars this country has ever engaged in.
  *THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order! That question does not arise on this resolution, which is simply of a financial character.
  *MR. JOHN WILSON (Falkirk Burghs): I simply wish to emphatically support the suggestion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the cost of this war, which, in the meantime, is to be raised by Treasury bills, will ultimately be put upon the Transvaal, which is thoroughly well able to stand it.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Knowing that hon. Members opposite will be anxious to know what are my views upon the question before the House, I take this opportunity of opposing, so far as I can, the imposition of any fresh taxation for the purpose of this war. The proposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to defer dealing with this matter for some time, has been received with a good deal of approbation from the Front Opposition Bench, but I am perfectly certain that there are a great number of people in this country who will be disappointed at not being told upon which class of the community the cost of this war is ultimately to fall. It has been suggested that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should raise the income tax in order to secure the necessary money. I should be glad to think that that decision had been arrived at, but I doubt very much when the Bill has to be paid if the working classes and the poorest portion of the population of this country will approve of it, for they will find to their sorrow that they will be called upon to bear a great portion of the burdens of that war which, at the present time, they have had nothing to do with except to cheer and demonstrate. But it is from the Irish point of view that I object most particularly to any proposal which the Chancellor of the Exchequer may make—[Ministerial laughter]. Will hon. Members opposite be kind enough to allow me to finish my sentence, for I know they follow my remarks very closely. I was about to continue the reason why I object to any proposal the Chancellor of the Exchequer may make which in any way whatever includes the Irish taxpayer. This war, we are told, is popular in England, and I am not going to discuss whether that is the case or not. To all appearances it is. It is equally certain that the Irish Members at the present time are not popular. But whether we are popular or not in this country, there can be no doubt that with the vast majority of the Irish people this war is very unpopular. I am not going to deny that there is a considerable min-

  539
  ority in Ireland, now that the Government has been committed to the war, who will support the Government and say they are in favour of the war. Out of some hundred Irish Members there are some eighteen or twenty only who will support the Government, but there are eighty or more who will certainly not support Her Majesty's Government. Therefore, it is reasonable to say that the vast majority of the Irish people have no enthusiasm for this war, and I say to make any arrangement—I do not care what it is to be—which in the slightest degree casts any burden upon the Irish taxpayer for the cost of this war would, in my opinion, be most unjust and unfair, and more particularly any attempt to tax the Irish people for this war would be resented at the present time, because for some little time past the Irish people have been considering the question of the burden of their present taxation, and they are firmly convinced that they already pay a considerably greater amount than they ought to towards the Imperial taxation of the United Kingdom. Therefore, I would seriously urge upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer to try and meet the cost of this war in some way which will not fall, first of all, upon the poor classes of the people of this country, and, secondly, upon the Irish people or any class of the Irish people at all. But if the Irish people are to be taxed to any extent for this war there is a minority in Ireland who, I have no doubt in their loyal enthusiasm, will be willing to thrust their hands into their pockets and pay for it. The portion of the north of Ireland represented by hon. Members opposite are always expressing their loyalty, and now that a costly war has been entered upon these gentlemen in the north of Ireland, whose bosoms swell with loyal pride, and who declare that the Boers must be put down and the Government must be supported, ought to pay for this war. My constituents will not object in the least degree if the loyalists of Belfast, out of their wealth and resources, desire to help the mother country by paying for this war. Let the supporters of Her Majesty's Government in Ireland be taxed as much as you like, but do not tax in the slightest degree the masses of the Irish people, who have as it is a great deal to do in order to make both ends meet, and to meet the demands of the landlords at the present time. The plan which would commend itself most to my mind to defray the
  540
  expense of this war would be the plan suggested in the speech of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Northampton. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said himself that the Transvaal might be called upon to bear some share of, if not all, the cost of this war, which is being waged in the interests of a large body of the taxpayers of the Transvaal. I do not know whether that is so or not, but if the Chancellor of the Exchequer would give me a hint even of the slightest intention on the part of the Government to make these precious Uitlanders pay for this war, I should be so delighted that even I would refrain from speaking any more upon this question, and that in itself might be a relief to hon. Gentlemen opposite. In any case I confine myself now to a protest, and I say it is not fair to tax the Irish people, or any section of them, with any part of the expense of this war, and I confine myself to the suggestion which I again most urgently put before the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that those gentlemen who would not fight for Dr. Jameson when he asked them to do so should now be made to pay when they have got the Imperial Army to go and fight for the liberties which they had not the spunk or pluck to fight for themselves.
  MR. LOUIS SINCLAIR: I should not have taken any part in the debate at this stage if it had not been argued that working men were against this war. As the representative of some 28,000 working class electors I wish to state that they have recently declared that they are ready and willing to make any sacrifice which they may be called upon to make in order to support the action of the Government in regard to this war, and they further say that it would be a bad policy if money were not to be expended now which must bring great benefit not only to the Uitlanders, but to the whole Empire. If only this war, by adopting vigorous measures, puts an end to the grievances which previously existed, and if it shows unmistakably that England intends to be the paramount Power in South Africa, it will be money well spent.
  MR. C. E. SHAW: I am not going to detain the House very long, but I came down here expressly to oppose any fresh taxation being imposed. I am very glad to be able to fall in with the views expressed by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and

  541
  the point I want to put is this: I was speaking the other day to a very large meeting upon this very question, and I then said that I should propose in this House that the cost of this war should be paid for in the form of a loan specially raised and guaranteed by the Imperial Government at the close of this war. That is on all fours with the issue of Treasury bills, which are one and the same thing. I also said that after the war was over that loan ought to be secured by the revenues of the two States with which we are at war, whatever form of government is established. I cannot in any way forecast what that future government may be, but I do hold that the working men of this country should not in any way be called upon to bear any
  form of increased taxation owing to this war. I would venture to point out that those mines, about which we have heard so much, are largely owned by people in Berlin and in Paris, and I want them to bear a portion of the burden. I do not intend to keep the House any longer, but I wish to urge this point upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because very likely we shall not have another opportunity of meeting him face to face before he comes down to the House in April next to propose his definite methods of taxation.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 336; Noes, 28. (Division List No. 11).

  AYES.

  Aird, John

  Caldwell, James

  Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry E.

  Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin)

  Dunn, Sir William

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Hart.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Carmichael, Sir T. D. Gibson-

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Archdale, Edward Mervyn

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Edward

  Elliot, Hn. A. Ralph Douglas

  Arnold, Alfred

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Evans, Sir F. H. (South'ton)

  Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis

  Cawley, Frederick

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

  Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J.(Birm.

  Ferguson, R. C. Monro (Leith)

  Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r)

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Finch, George H.

  Bainbridge, Emerson

  Charrington, Spencer

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Chelsea, Viscount

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Clarke, Sir Edward(Plymouth)

  FitzGerald, Sir Robt. Penrose

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J.(Man.)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W.(Leeds)

  Coddington, Sir William

  Fitz Wygram, General Sir F.

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Flower, Ernest

  Barnes, Frederic Gorell

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Folkestone, Viscount

  Barry, Rt. Hon. A. H. S. (Hunts

  Colomb, Sir John Charles R.

  Forster, Henry William

  Barry, Sir F. T. (Windsor)

  Colston, Chas. Ed. H. Athole

  Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)

  Barton, Dunbar Plunket

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M.H.(Bristol

  Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth)

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Beach, W. W. B. (Hants)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Garfit, William

  Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Gedge, Sydney

  Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (C. of Lond.

  Bethell, Commander

  Crombie, John William

  Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Giles, Charles Tyrrell

  Biddulph, Michael

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton

  Gilliat, John Saunders

  Bill, Charles

  Cruddas, William Donaldson

  Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbt. J.

  Blakiston-Honston, John

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Goldsworthy, Major-General

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Currie, Sir Donald

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward

  Bolitho, Thomas Bedford

  Curzon, Viscount

  Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir J. Eldon

  Bond, Edward

  Goschen, Rt. Hn G J (St. George's

  Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme

  Dalkieth, Earl of

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley

  Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex)

  Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Bowles, T. Gibson(King'sLynn)

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardig'n

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Brookfield, A. Montagu

  Denny, Colonel

  Green, W. D. (Wednesbury)

  Brown, Alexander H.

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Bryce, Right Hon. James

  Donkin, Richard Sim

  Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick)

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Gull, Sir Cameron

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Haldane, Richard Burden

  Burt, Thomas

  Doxford, Wm. Theodore

  Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Butcher, John George

  Drage, Geoffrey

  Halsey, Thomas Frederick

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Duckworth, James

  Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord George

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert W.

  Malcolm, Ian

  Sandys, Lieut.-Col. T. Myles

  Hanson, Sir Reginald

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Savory, Sir Joseph

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Marks, Henry Hananel

  Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard

  Harwood, George

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn W.F.

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Maxwell, Rt Hon Sir Herbert E.

  Seeley, Charles Hilton

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-

  Mellor, Colonel (Lancashire)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Heath, James

  Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand

  Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford)

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew

  Hedderwick, Thomas Chas. H.

  Middlemore, J. Throgmorton

  Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire)

  Helder, Augustus

  Milbank, Sir Powlett C. John

  Sidebottom, William(Derbysh

  Henderson, Alexander

  Milward, Colonel Victor

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

  Monk, Charles James

  Sinclair, Capt. John(Forfarsh.

  Hill, Rt. Hn. A. Staveley(Staffs.

  Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Hill, Arthur (Down, West)

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Smith, Abel H. (Christchurch)

  Hoare, Edw. B. (Hampstead)

  Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

  Smith, James Parker(Lanarks

  Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich)

  Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Holden, Sir Angus

  Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport)

  Spencer, Ernest

  Holland, William Henry

  Mount, William George

  Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Muntz, Philip A.

  Stanley, Edward J. (Somerset)

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute)

  Stanley, Sir H. M. (Lambeth)

  Howard, Joseph

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Howell, William Tudor

  Murray, Col. Wyndham(Bath)

  Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart

  Hozier, Hon. Jas. Henry Cecil

  Myers, William Henry

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Hughes, Colonel Edwin

  Newdigate, Francis Alex.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.)

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Strachey, Edward

  Jenkins, Sir John Jones

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Strauss, Arthur

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Northcote, Hn. Sir H. S.

  Strutt, Hon, Charles Hedley

  Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez Edw.

  Norton, Captain C. Wm.

  Sturt, Hon. H. Napier

  Johnston, William (Belfast)

  Oldroyd, Mark

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J G(Oxf'd Univ.)

  Jolliffe, Hon. H. George

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Tennant, Harold John

  Jones, David Brynmor(Swans'a

  Palmer, Sir C. M. (Durham)

  Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, E.)

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Kemp, George

  Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland)

  Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

  Keswick, William

  Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlingt'n

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Kimber, Henry

  Pease, Joseph A. (Northum.)

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Pender, Sir James

  Valentia, Viscount

  Knowles, Lees

  Perks, Robert William

  Vincent, Col Sir C. E. Howard

  Lafone, Alfred

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Wallace, Robert

  Langley, Batty

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Lawrence, Sir E Durning-(Corn

  Pilkington, Sir G. A.(Lanc. S. W

  Warner, Thomas C. T.

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Webster, Sir Richard E.

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Plunkett, Rt. Hon. H. Curzon

  Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.

  Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

  Pollock, Harry Frederick

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Leighton, Stanley

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Williams, Jos. Powell- (Birm.

  Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset)

  Priestley, Sir W. O. (Edin.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Provand, Andrew Dryburgh

  Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull)

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Purvis, Robert

  Wilson, John (Govan)

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Pym, C. Guy

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

  Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Liverpool)

  Rankin, Sir James

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Woods, Samuel

  Lorne, Marquess of

  Reid, Sir Robert Threshie

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. S.-

  Lough, Thomas

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Wrightson, Thomas

  Lowe, Francis William

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Wylie, Alexander

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W.

  Wyndham, George

  Lubbock, Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W.H.

  Lucas-Shadwell, William

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

  Lyell, Sir Leonard

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Macartney, W. G. Ellison

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney

  Young, Commander(Berks, E.)

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Robson, Wm. Snowdon

  Yoxall, James Henry

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter

  Maclure, Sir John William

  Russell, Gen. F. S.(Cheltenham

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

  Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Rutherford, John.

  M'Calmont, H. L. B. (Cambs.)

  Ryder, John Herbert Dudley

  M'Crae, George

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  NOES.

  Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N.E.)

  Commins, Andrew

  Davitt, Michael

  Ambrose, Robert

  Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)

  Daly, James

  Doogan, P. C.

  544

  545

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  MacDonnell, Dr M A(Queen's C

  Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

  Gibney, James

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Sullivan, T. D. (Donegal, W.)

  Gilhooly, James

  M'Cartan, Michael

  Tuite, James

  Hayden, John Patrick

  M'Ghee, Richard

  Healy, Maurice (Cork)

  M'Hugh, Patrick A. (Leitrim)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Mr. Dillon and Mr. William Redmond

  Lawson, Sir. Wilfrid(Cumb'l nd

  O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.)

  Macaleese, Daniel

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  CONSOLIDATED FUND.
  Motion made, and Question put, "That towards making good the Supply granted to Her Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March,
  1900, the sum of £10,000,000 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 336; Noes, 27. (Division List No. 12.)

  AYES.

  Aird, John

  Chamberlain, J.Austen(Worc'r

  FitzWyram, General Sir F.

  Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden

  Chaplain, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Folkestone, Viscount

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Charrington, Spencer

  Forster, Henry William

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Chelsea, Viscount

  Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)

  Archdale, Edward Mervyn

  Clarke,Sir Edward(Plymouth)

  Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk)

  Arnold, Alfred

  Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E.

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis

  Coddington, Sir William

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Asquith. Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Garfit, William

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready.

  Gedge, Sydney

  Bainbridge, Emerson

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H Athole

  Gibbons, J. Lloyd

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Gibbs, Hn. A.G.H.(Cityof Lond

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth)

  Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J.(Manch'r.

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Giles, Charles Tyrrell

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds)

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Gilliat, John Saunders

  Barry, Rt. Hn. A. H Smith-(Hunts

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Gladstone, Rt. Hon. H. John

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Goldsworthy, Major-General

  Barnes, Frederic Gorell

  Crombie, John William

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward

  Barry, Sir F. T. (Windsor)

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Gorst, Rt Hon. Sir Jno. Eldon

  Barton, Dunbar Plunkett

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd(Bolton)

  Goschen, Rt Hn G. J (St George's

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H(Bristol)

  Cruddas. William Donaldson

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Beach, W. W. B. (Hants.)

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Gourley, Sir. Edwd. Temperley

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Currie, Sir Donald

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull

  Curzon, Viscount

  Green, Walford D(Wednesbury

  Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Bethell, Commander

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick)

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Devonport, W. Bromley

  Gull, Sir Cameron

  Biddulph, Michael

  Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham

  Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Bill, Charles

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Halsey, Thomas Frederick

  Blakiston-Houston, John

  Denny, Colonel

  Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm.

  Bolitho, Thomas Bedford

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir. F. Dixon

  Hanson, Sir Reginald

  Bond, Edward

  Donkin, Richard Sim

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Harwood, George

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex)

  Doxford, William Theodore

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-

  Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn

  Drage, Geoffrey

  Heath, James

  Brookfield, A. Montagu

  Duckworth, James

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Brown, Alexander H.

  Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

  Hedderwick, Thos. Charles H.

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Dunn, Sir William

  Helder, Augustus

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Henderson, Alexander

  Butcher, John George

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Hill, Rt. Hn. A. Staveley(Staffs

  Caldwell, James

  Evans, Sir Fran. H. (South'ton

  Hill, Arthur (Down, West)

  Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin)

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Hoare, E. Brodie (Hampstead)

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich)

  Carmichael, Sir T. D. Gibson-

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw.

  Holden, Sir Angus

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Edward

  Ferguson, R. C. M. (Leith)

  Holland, William Henry

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs)

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J.(Manc'r

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Cawley, Frederick

  Finch, George H.

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Howard, Joseph

  Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Howell, William Tudor

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Hozier, Hon. James Hy. Cecil

  Hughes, Colonel Edwin

  Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.)

  Morton, Arthur H. A.(Deptford

  Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford)

  Jenkins, Sir John Jones

  Mount, William George

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H.(Renfrew)

  Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton

  Muntz, Philip A.

  Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire)

  Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez Ed.

  Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute

  Sidebottom, William (Derbysh

  Johnston, William (Belfast)

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Jolliffe, Hon. H. George

  Murray, Col. Wyndham(Bath)

  Sinclair, Capt. Jn.(Forfarshire)

  Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea)

  Myers, William Henry

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Newdigate, Francis Alexander

  Smith, Abel H. (Christchurch)

  Kemp, George

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Smith, James P. (Lanarks.)

  Keswick, William

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Kimber, Henry

  Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford

  Spencer, Ernest

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur(Ormskirk

  Knowles, Lees

  Oldroyd, Mark

  Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)

  Lafone, Alfred

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Stanley, Sir Hny. M.(Lambeth)

  Lambert, George

  Palmer, Sir Chas. M. (Durham)

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Langley, Batty

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart

  Lawrence, Sir E. Durning-(Corn

  Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland)

  Stirling- Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Pease, Herbert P. (Darlington)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks)

  Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.)

  Strachey, Edward

  Lecky, Rt. Hn. Wm. Ed. H.

  Pender, Sir James

  Strauss, Arthur

  Lees, Sir Elliott, (Birkenhe'd)

  Perks, Robert William

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G.(Oxf'd Un.

  Leighton, Stanley

  Pilkington, Sir G. A. Lanc. S. W.

  Tennant, Harold John

  Llewellyn, E. H. (Somerset)

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, E.)

  Lockwood, Lt.-Colonel A. R.

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Plunkett, Rt. Hon. Horace C.

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)

  Pollock, Harry Frederick

  Tomlinson. Wm. Edw. Murray

  Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Liverpool)

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Lorne, Marquess of

  Priestley, Sir W. Overend(Edin

  Valentia, Viscount

  Lowe, Francis William

  Provand, Andrew Dryburgh

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H.

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.)

  Lubbock, Rt. Hn. Sir John

  Purvis, Robert

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Lucas-Shadwell, William

  Rankin, Sir James

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Lyell, Sir Leonard

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Webster, Sir Richard E.

  Macartney, W. G. Ellison

  Re d, Sir Robert Threshie

  Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Richardson, Sir Thos. Hartlep'l

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Maclure, Sir John William

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Williams, J. Powell-(Birm.)

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir Matt. W.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thomson

  Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull)

  M'Calmont, H. L.B. (Cambs.)

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  M'Crae, George

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Wilson, John (Govan)

  M'Laren, Charles Benjamin

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R.(Bath

  Malcolm, Ian

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Rothschild, Hon Lionel Walter

  Woods, Samuel

  Marks, Henry Hananel

  Round, James

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F.

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Wrightson, Thomas

  Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H. E.

  Russell, Gen. F. S.(Cheltenh'm

  Wylie, Alexander

  Mellor, Colonel (Lancashire)

  Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

  Wyndham, George

  Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand

  Rutherford, John

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W.H.

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Ryder, John Herbert Dudley

  Wyvill, Marmaduke d'Arcy

  Middlemore, J. Throgmorton

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Milbank, Sir. Powlett ChasJohn

  Sandys, Lieut.-Col. T. Myles

  Young, Commander (Berks, E.)

  Milward, Colonel Victor

  Savory, Sir Joseph

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Monk, Charles James

  Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone,W.)

  Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Seely, Charles Hilton

  NOES.

  Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N.E.)

  Gilhooly, James

  M'Hugh, Patrick A. (Leitrim)

  Ambrose, Robert

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Austin M. (Limerick, W.)

  Healy Maurice (Cork)

  O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow,W.)

  Commins, Andrew

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'land

  Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

  Daly, James

  Macaleese, Daniel

  Sullivan, T. D. (Donegal, W.)

  Davitt, Michael

  MacDonnell, Dr. M. A.(Qu'n'sC

  Tuite, James

  Donelan, Captain A.

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  TELLERSFOR THE NOES—

  Doogan, P. C.

  M'Cartan, Michael

  Mr. Dillon and Mr. William. Redmond

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  M'Ghee, Richard

  Resolutions to be reported to-morrow.
  The House resumed.
  MR. CALDWELL: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order: a resolution has just been passed in Committee, but there was no motion put in Committee that the Chairman should report the resolution to the House.
  MR. SPEAKER: I have nothing to do with what happens in Committee.

SUPPLY (20TH OCTOBER).
Resolutions reported:—
SUPPLY (20TH OCTOBER).

  ARMY (SUPPLEMENTARY) ESTIMATES, 1899–1900.
  1. "That a further number of land forces, not exceeding 35,000, all ranks, be maintained for the service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland at home and abroad during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1900."
  2. "That a supplementary sum, not exceeding £10,000,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1900, for additional expenditure, in consequence of the military situation in South Africa, in respect of the following Army Services, viz.:—

  £

  Vote 1. Pay, &c., of the Army

  1,000,000

  Vote 2. Medical Establishments: Pay, &c.

  50,000

  Vote 3. Militia: Pay, &c.

  250,000

  Vote 6. Transports and Remounts

  4,900,000

  Vote 7. Provisions, Forage, and other Supplies

  1,900,000

  Vote 8. Clothing Establishments and Services

  650,000

  Vote 9. Warlike and other Stores

  1,150,000

  Vote 10. Works, &c.: Cost (including Staff for Engineer Services)

  100,000

  Total

  £10,000,000."

  Resolutions read a second time.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the First Resolution."
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: I have no intention of discussing this Vote, but I desire to put a question to the Under Secretary for War in reference to the allowance made by the Government to the families of the Reservists. I have had several communications on the subject, and there is a very general feeling that the amount of the allowance is really not adequate. I would like to ask the hon. Gentleman whether the Government, by statute or otherwise, can see its way either now or on some future occasion to increase the allowance to the families of Reservists.
  MR. DALZIEL: I wish to ask the Under Secretary for War whether he can add anything to what he said this afternoon in reference to the position in South Africa.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. WYNDHAM,): I have nothing further to add up to the present moment. In reply to the hon. Member for Dundee, the Government gives to the wives of Reservists who are embodied on permanent service a separation allowance which is, in the case of those who have no married quarters, 8d. per day for the wife, and 2d. a day for each of the children. That is Government money. In addition to this, the Government stops compulsorily 3d. a day at least of the pay of the soldier, making in all 11d. per day for the wife, and an additional 2d. for each child. This is by Act of Parliament. I may, perhaps, add that the Government do not intend to be behind employers of labour in this country, and that half-pay will be given to every Reservist employed in any Government office during the time of his embodiment for permanent service.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 333; Noes, 29. (Division List No. 13.)

  AYES.

  Aird, John

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Harwood, George

  Allhusen, Augustus Hy. Eden

  Crombie, John William

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Hayne, Rt. Hn. Chas. Seale-

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Heath, James

  Archdale, Edward Mervyn

  Cruddas, William Donaldson

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Arnold, Alfred

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Hedderwick, Thomas C. H.

  Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis

  Currie, Sir Donald

  Helder, Augustus

  Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Hy.

  Curzon, Viscount

  Henderson, Alexander

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Hill, Arthur (Down, West)

  Bainbridge, Emerson

  Davenport, W. Bromley-

  Hoare, E. Brodie (Hampstead)

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham)

  Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich)

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Card'gn

  Holden, Sir Angus

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch')

  Denny, Colonel

  Holland, William Henry

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds)

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Barnes Frederic Gorell

  Donkin, Richard Sim

  Houldsworth, Sir William H.

  Barry, Rt. Hn. A. H. Smith-(Hunts

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Houston, R. P.

  Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Howard, Joseph

  Barton, Dunbar Plunket

  Doxford, William Theodore

  Howell, William Tudor

  Beach, Rt. Hn Sir. M. H. (Bristol

  Drage, Geoffrey

  Hozier, Hon. J. Henry Cecil

  Beach, W. W. Bramston(Hants

  Duckworth, James

  Hughes, Colonel Edwin

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

  Hutton, John (Yorks. N.R.)

  Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull

  Dunn, Sir William

  Jenkins, Sir John Jones

  Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton

  Bethell, Commander

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez E

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Johnston, William (Belfast)

  Biddulph, Michael

  Evans, Sir F. H. (S'thampton)

  Jolliffe, Hon. H. George

  Bigwood, James

  Jones, David Brynmor(Swans'a

  Bill, Charles

  Fardell, Sir T George

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Blakiston-Houston, John

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Kemp, George

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw.

  Keswick, William

  Bolitho, Thomas Bedford

  Fenguson, R. C. Munro(Leith

  Kimber, Henry

  Bond, Edward

  Fergusson Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Man'r

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme

  Finch, George H.

  Knowles, Lees

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Finlay, Sir Robt. Bannatyne

  Lafone, Alfred

  Bowles, Capt. H.F. (Middlesex

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lambert, George

  Bowles, T Gibson(King'sLynn

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Langley, Batty

  Brookfield, A. Montagu

  Fitz Wygram, General Sir F.

  Lawrence, Sir E Durning-(Corn

  Brown, Alexander H.

  Folkestone, Viscount

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Forster, Henry William

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Foster Colonel (Lancaster)

  Lecky, Rt. Hon. William E.H.

  Butcher, John George

  Foster, Harry S.(Suffolk)

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.

  Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Caldwell, James

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset)

  Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin)

  Garfit, William

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Gedge, Sydney

  Loder, Gerald W. Erskine

  Carmichael, Sir T. D. Gibson-

  Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (C. of Lond

  Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Edward

  Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liv'pool)

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Giles, Charles Tyrrell

  Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

  Cawley, Frederick

  Gilliat, John Saunders

  Lorne, Marquess of

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J.

  Lowe, Francis William

  Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

  Goldsworthy, Major-General

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.)

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward

  Lubbock, Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Chamberlain, J. Austen(Worc'r

  Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon

  Lucas-Shadwell, William

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Goschen, Rt Hn G J.(St George's

  Lyell, Sir Leonard

  Charrington, Spencer

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Macartney, W. G. Ellison

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Clarke, Sir Edward(Plymouth)

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E.

  Green, Walford D.(Wedn'sb'ry

  Maclure, Sir John William

  Coddington, Sir William

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  M'Arthur, Chas. (Liverpool)

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick)

  M'Calmont, H. L. B. (Cambs.)

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Gull, Sir Cameron

  M'Crae, George

  Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

  Haldane, Richard Burdon

  Malcolm, Ian

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Hall, Rt. Hn. Sir Charles

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Halsey, Thomas Frederick

  Marks, Henry Hananel

  Cook, Fred Lucas (Lambeth)

  Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn W.F.

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robt. Wm.

  Maxwell, Rt. Hon. Sir H. E.

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Hanson, Sir Reginald

  Mellor, Colonel (Lancashire)

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand

  552

  553

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Pryce-Jones, Lt-Col. Edward

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Middlemore, J. Throgmorton

  Purvis, Robert

  Strachey, Edward

  Milbank, Sir Powlett C. J.

  Rankin, Sir James

  Strauss, Arthur

  Milton, Viscount

  Rasch, Major Frederic C.

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Milward, Colonel Victor

  Reid, Sir Robert Threshie

  Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

  Monk, Charles James

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Talbot, Rt Hn. J G.(Oxf'd Univ.

  Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel

  Richardson, Sir T.(Hartlepool

  Tennant, Harold John

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, E.)

  Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

  Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir M. W.

  Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.

  Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)

  Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. T.

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport)

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Tomlinson, W. Edw. Murray

  Mount, William George

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Muntz, Philip A.

  Rothschild, Hon. Lionel W.

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Murray, Rt Hn. A. G. (Bute

  Round, James

  Valentia, Viscount

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H.

  Murray, Col W. (Bath)

  Russell, Gen.F.S.(Cheltenham

  Wallace, Robert

  Myers, William Henry

  Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

  Walton, John L. (Leeds, S.)

  Newdigate, Francis Alex.

  Rutherford, John

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Ryder, John Herbert Dudley

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Webster, Sir Richard E.

  Northcote, Hon. Sir H. S.

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C E.

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Oldroyd, Mark

  Savory, Sir Joseph

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard

  Williams, Jsph. Powell-(Birm.

  Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durh'm

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Seely, Charles Hilton

  Wilson Charles Henry (Hull)

  Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Pease, H. Pike (Darlington)

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

  Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.)

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H.(Renfrew)

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Pender, Sir James

  Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire)

  Woods, Samuel

  Perks, Robert William

  Sidebottom, Wm. (Derbysh.)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. S.-

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Sinclair, Capt J. (Forfarshire)

  Wrightson, Thomas

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Wylie, Alexander

  Pilkington, Sir G. A(Lancs. S W

  Smith, Abel H. (Christchurch)

  Wyndham, George

  Pirie, Duncan, V.

  Smith, JamesParker(Lanarksh

  Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Plunkett, Rt. Hon. Horace C.

  Spencer, Ernest

  Young, Com'and'r (Berks, E.)

  Pollock, Harry Frederick

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Stanley, Ed. Jas. (Somerset)

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

  Priestley, Sir W. Overend(Edin

  Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart

  Provand, Andrew Dryburgh

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir J. M.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork,N. E.

  Gilhooly, James

  M'Hugh, Patrick A. (Leitrim)

  Ambrose, Robert

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)

  Healy, Maurice (Cork)

  O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.)

  Blake, Edward

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Commins, Andrew

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'land)

  Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

  Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)

  Lloyd-George, David

  Sullivan, T. D. (Donegal,W.)

  Daly James

  Macaleese, Daniel

  Tuite, James

  Davitt, Michael

  MacDonnell, Dr. M. A.(Q'n's C.

  Donelan, Captain A.

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Doogan, P. C.

  M'Cartan, Michael

  Mr. Dillon and Mr. William Redmond.

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  M'Ghee, Richard

  Resolution agreed to.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the Second Resolution"
  MR. J. H. LEWIS: I would like to draw attention to the calling out of the Army Medical Reserve. I understand a notice appears in the newspapers by the Director General of the Royal Army Medical Corps, asking for applications to fill the posts that have
  554
  been vacated by the appointment of Army doctors to foreign service. There are a large number of medical officers belonging to the Army Medical Reserve who are willing to serve, but whoso services have not been requisitioned. The question I wish to ask the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for War is whether these officers, who necessarily have had a military training, would be accepted in priority to any other medical officers? I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman, will be able to give a definite reply at

  555
  present to this question. All I ask is that he will consider the matter.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I am making inquiries in regard to the matter, and I will be in a better position to give the hon. Member an answer if he will put down his question for Thursday.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: Before we put this enormous Vote I venture to express my opinion against it, and the opinion of my constituents. I have unfortunately been trying to get an opportunity to speak, and have not succeeded. I am the more anxious to do this because my name has been brought before the House for some reflections alleged to have been delivered by me in Dublin. I was anxious that here, on the floor of the House of Commons, my opinion should be heard. I did not attach any great importance to my speech until I found myself a hero on account of it. I am sorry that the Leader of the House went so far as to say that what I was alleged to have said was contrary to the rules of the House. It has been said that there is yet another opportunity to prosecute me in Ireland, and that the Government have been urged to do it; but I beg to assure them that I am prepared to meet them, and until then I withdraw nothing, I modify nothing, and I apologise for nothing which I said in Ireland. My opinions are against this war as an unjust war; as the war of the big bully against a small opponent, because if, as has frequently been pointed out in this House, it was one of the first-class Powers of the world that was on the other side we know that the British would have done as they did in China—they would have swallowed the leek as they did when they had their opportunity of meeting Russia. I cannot understand the hypocrisy of the British people, who claim to be such excellent Christians. Here, in this House of Commons, every afternoon, we hear read for us the beautiful prayer which prays for the unity and the meeting together of all peoples, yet at the same time we find this Government plotting and planning war against one of the most innocent people in the world; against a people who never did you any wrong. The real motive for the war came out to-day. It is that you may secure the gold mines of the Rand to pay for the war, and put the
  556
  rest in your pockets, the same as you have been doing in regard to Ireland. These are my opinions, and you are welcome to have them. These are the opinions of my constituents in Kilkenny. Well, if there is any doubt about it I invite the British Government to bring their foot, horse, and artillery into Kilkenny to see if they are in favour of this war, and I will hunt them out of it. The opinion of the people of Kilkenny is the opinion of the Irish race in every part of the world. What more natural than that the people of Ireland, "rightly struggling to be free," should be with the Boers, who also are rightly struggling to maintain their freedom and to keep you out of the Transvaal? These are the views of the Irish people. If there is anything illegal or improper in conveying that information, I am not the man to refuse to take the responsibility of my own words. I stick to whatever I have said. I know it has been alleged that there are certain Irishmen in the British Army—["No, no!"] Oh, yes; they are at the front fighting, and in that respect they are different from some of the gallant colonels who sit on the Ministerial benches, and keep as far away as they can from the seat of war. Irishmen are in your Army, but how did they get there? I will tell you. It is because by British misgovernment of their country they have nothing to do, and have been starved into that position.
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The hon. Member must address himself to the question before the House.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: I will try, Mr. Speaker, to do it; but, under the special circumstances, I think I am entitled to a little more license than other Members.
  *THE SPEAKER: But the hon. Member cannot have more license than the rules of the House permit.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: These Irishmen in your Army do not represent Irish opinion. It is true that they represent Irish valour, but they do not represent Irish opinion. There is a band of Irishmen engaged in this war, fighting under their own flag, on the side of the Boers, and they represent Irish opinion undoubtedly. And there are tens of

  557
  thousands of Irishmen in other parts of the world who would go to the assistance of President Kruger if they could get there. You may wonder why this is so. The Under Secretary of State for War gave the explanation of the whole of the circumstances, because he said, and he made a boast of it, that all the self-governing colonies of Her Majesty were in sympathy with the British in this war. Precisely—because they are self-governing, and if the British were to apply that remedy to the people of Ireland it is possible they might have the masses of the people with them. But mind you, they are now against you—they are with President Kruger. They are against England because they suffer from misgovernment, because they know this country has been unjust, and that it is unjust to ask them to help to pay the bill for this war. Those who talk of allegiance should remember how much confidence the Irish people ought to place in you. You have broken treaties everywhere. You are breaking treaties to-day as you did at Limerick, and no doubt the Boers are fighting to the death because you have broken treaties with them. Personally, I do hope the Boers will succeed in putting you out of their country; most decidedly, as a friend of liberty, I cannot think otherwise, and if any other Power were to treat them as you are doing, this House would ring against the injustice of it. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has to-day, very cleverly, I think, kept out of sight so far as he could, just as the Colonial Secretary kept out of sight as long as he could, the real motive of this war, and those who are to pay the bill. He was afraid to touch the income tax, because then the people who are so clamorous for war would—
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! I must remind the hon. Member that that has nothing to do with the question of Report of Supply.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: I think it has a good deal to do with it.
  *MR. SPEAKER: Ways and means are one thing; Supply is another.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: The butcher's bill is to be put off till April next.
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The hon. Member is not attending to my ruling.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: I suppose I shall be entitled to say that Ireland has no right to be taxed for any portion of the cost.
  *MR. SPEAKER: No.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: I have learnt from this evening's experience that in future when in the House I must take a more intelligent interest in the proceedings of the House, as the late Speaker used to say. I shall take care to speak where I will be able to say what I want to say without the misfortune of being called to order by your ruling.
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order!
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: This war is an unjust war. Ireland has no part in it, and has no right to be charged with any portion of the cost. I will go further and say that this war is a crime against humanity, and the principal actor in that crime has, in my opinion, his hands as deeply stained in blood as any criminal who ever mounted to the scaffold—I refer to the Colonial Secretary.
  *MR. SPEAKER: I call upon the hon. Member to withdraw that expression.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: No, Sir; I do not withdraw anything of the kind. That is my conscientious and deliberate opinion.
  *MR. SPEAKER: As the hon. Member has distinctly refused to withdraw the statement he has made, it is my duty to name Mr. Patrick O'Brien for disregarding the authority of the Chair.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: I move that the hon. Member be suspended from the service of the House.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: He only told the truth.
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order!
  Motion made and Question put, "That Mr. Patrick O'Brien be suspended from the Service of the House."—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
  The House divided:—Ayes, 316; Noes, 26. (Division List No. 14.)

  AYES.

  Aird, John

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Hill, Arthur (Down, West)

  Allhusen, A. Henry Eden

  Currie, Sir Donald

  Hoare, Ed. Brodie(Hampstead

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Curzon, Viscount

  Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich)

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Holden, Sir Angus

  Archdale, Edward Mervyn

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Holland, William Henry

  Arnold, Alfred

  Davenport, W. Bromley-

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis

  Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham)

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardig'n)

  Houldsworth, Sir. Wm. Henry

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Denny, Colonel

  Houston, R. P.

  Baird, Jn. George Alexander

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Howard, Joseph

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon

  Howell, William Tudor

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

  Donkin, Richard Sim

  Hozier, Hon. James H. Cecil

  Balfour, Rt. Hon GrldW. (Leeds

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Hutton, John (Yorks, N.R.)

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Doxford, William Theodore

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Drage, Geoffrey

  Jenkins, Sir John Jones

  Barnes, Frederic Gorell

  Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

  Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton

  Barry, Rt. Hn. A. H. Smith-(Hts

  Dunn, Sir William

  Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez E.

  Barton, Dunbar Plunket

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Hart-

  Johnston, William (Belfast)

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Jolliffe, Hon. H. George

  Beach, W. W. B. (Hants.)

  Elliot, Hon. A. R. Douglas

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Begg, Ferdinand Faithful

  Evans, Sir F. H. (South'ton)

  Kemp, George

  Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Keswick, William

  Bethell, Commander

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Kimber, Henry

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Bigwood, James

  Ferguson, R.C. Munro (Leith)

  Knowles, Lees

  Bill, Charles

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J.(Man.)

  Lafone, Alfred

  Billson, Alfred

  Finch, George H.

  Lambert, George

  Blakiston-Houston, John

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Langley, Batty

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lawrence, Sir E. Durn'g-(Corn.

  Bolitho, Thomas Bedford

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  FitzWygram, General Sir F.

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)

  Bond, Edward

  Folkestone, Viscount

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumberland)

  Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme

  Forster, Henry William

  Lecky, Rt. Hn. William Edw. H

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Bowles, Capt. H. F.(Middlesex)

  Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk)

  Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

  Bowles T. G. (King's Lynn)

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Brookfield, A. Montagu

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Llewellyn, E. H. (Somerset)

  Brown, Alexander H.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Garfit, William

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Gedge, Sydney

  Long, Col. Chas. W.(Evesham)

  Butcher, John George

  Gibbs, Hn. A G H.(CityofLond.)

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Liverpool

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Gibbs, Hon. V (St. Albans)

  Lorne, Marquess of

  Caldwell, James

  Giles, Charles Tyrrell

  Lowe, Francis William

  Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin)

  Gilliat, John Saunders

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Carmichael, Sir T. D. Gibson-

  Goldsworthy, Major-General

  Lubbock, Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Edward

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward

  Lucas-Shadwell, William

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Lyell, Sir Leonard

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Goschen, Rt. Hn. G. J.(St. Geo.'s

  Macartney, W. G. Ellison

  Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.)

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Chamberlain, J. Austen(Worc'r

  Green, W. D. (Wednesbury)

  Maclure, Sir John William

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Charrington, Spencer

  Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick)

  M'Calmont, H. L. B. (Cambs.)

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Gull, Sir Cameron

  Malcolm, Ian

  Clarke, Sir Edward (Plymouth

  Haldane, Richard Burdon

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A.E.

  Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Marks, Henry Hananel

  Coddington, Sir William

  Halsey, Thomas Frederick

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord Geo.

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Hanbury, Rt, Hon. R. Wm.

  Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir Herbert E.

  Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready

  Hanson, Sir Reginald

  Mellor, Colonel (Lancashire)

  Colston, Chas. Ed. H. Athole

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Harwood, George

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth)

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Middlemore, J. Throgmorton

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasg.)

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-

  Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas John

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Hazell, Walter

  Milton, Viscount

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Heath, James

  Milward, Colonel Victor

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Hedderwick, Thomas Chas. H.

  Monk, Charles James

  Crombie, John William

  Helder, Augustus

  Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Henderson, Alexander

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Cruddas, William Donaldson

  Hermon-Hodge, Rbt. Trotter

  Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

  560

  561

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Strachey, Edward

  Mount, William George

  Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l)

  Strauss, Arthur

  Muntz, Philip A.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Murray, Rt. Hn A. Graham(Bute)

  Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W.

  Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. T

  Talbot, Rt Hn J. G.(Oxford Uni.

  Murray,Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Roberts, J. H. (Denbighsh.)

  Tennant, Harold John

  Myers, William Henry

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Newdigate, Francis Alexander

  Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter

  Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Round, James

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford

  Russell, Gen. F. S. (Chelt'nh'm

  Valentia, Viscount

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

  Oldroyd, Mark

  Rutherford, John

  Wallace, Robert

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Ryder, John Herbert Dudley

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Palmer, Sir C. M. (Durham)

  Sandys, Lieut.-Col. T. Myles

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Savory, Sir Joseph

  Webster, Sir Richard E.

  Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland)

  Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard

  Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.

  Pease, H. Pike (Darlington)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.)

  Seely, Charles Hilton

  Williams Joseph Powell-(Birm.

  Pender, Sir James

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Perks, Robert William

  Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford)

  Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull)

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Shaw-Stewart, M.H. (Renfrew

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire)

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R.(Bath

  Pilkington, R.(Lancs.Newt'n)

  Sidebottom, Wm. (Derbysh.)

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Pilkington, Sir G. (Lancs. S. W.

  Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh.)

  Wrightson, Thomas

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Wylie, Alexander

  Plunkett, Rt. Hon. H. Curzon

  Smith, Abel H. (Christchurch

  Wyndham, George

  Pollock, Harry Frederick

  Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks)

  Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Spencer, Ernest

  Young, Commander(Berks, E.)

  Priestley, Sir W. O. (Edin.)

  Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Provand, Andrew Dryburgh

  Stanley, E. James (Somerset)

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. (Edin.)

  Stanley, Lord (Lancashire)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Purvis, Robert

  Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart

  Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

  Rankin, Sir James

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir J. M.

  NOES.

  Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N.E.)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  M'Hugh, Patrick A. (Leitrim

  Ambrose, Robert

  Gilhooly, James

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Austin, M. (Limerick W.)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.

  Commins, Andrew

  Healy, Maurice (Cork)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Curran, Thomas B. (Donegal)

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

  Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S)

  Macaleese, Daniel

  Sullivan, T. D. (Donegal, W.)

  Daly, James

  MacDonnell, Dr. M A(Queen'sC

  Davitt, Michael

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  TELLERS FOE THE NOES—

  Donelan, Captain A.

  M'Cartan, Michael

  Mr. Dillon and Mr. William Redmond.

  Doogan, P. C.

  M'Ghee, Richard

  Whereupon Mr. Speaker directed Mr. Patrick O'Brien to withdraw.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: I do not want you to bring up another army corps; you may want it somewhere else; so I will go.
  The hon. Member then withdrew.
  MR. DILLON: There are two questions arising out of the situation in South Africa that I wish to ask the Under Secretary for War before we go to a Division. One is, in view of the unexpectedly large number of wounded on both sides which have to be attended to, what steps the Government are taking to meet the emergency, and what medical
  562
  staff was on duty near the scene of the recent engagements? Another point on which I desire to ask the Government for information—although I am not sanguine as to getting it, but I am determined to press for it on every occasion—is as to what orders have been sent to the British Resident in Basutoland with regard to his attitude towards the Basuto people. Her Majesty's Government are directly responsible for any action the Basutos may take, inasmuch as they are represented in the country by a British officer, and the people are under the sovereignty of the Queen; and I am therefore entitled, in the interests of humanity and of all the white people in South Africa, to press for an assurance

  563
  from the Government as to what orders have been sent out.
  AN HON. MEMBER: Let the Boers keep out of Basutoland. [Cheers.]
  MR. DILLON: I think the interruption and the cheers with which it was received only prove the necessity for the question I ask. I was influenced in this matter by the fact that a direct incitement appeared in a London newspaper to the Basutos to invade the Orange Free State.
  A VOICE: By whom?
  MR. DILLON: By the Standard, among others. [Cries of "Quote."] I will bring down the paragraph. It is well known that that interpretation has been placed upon it, not by my self, but by Englishmen. Are the Government going to adopt that attitude in South Africa? Are they going to allow the Basuto people to swoop down upon the plains of the Orange Free State? That would be an act of folly, and a crime, and would add to the misery and the horrible consequences which at best must result and remain for many years to come from that war.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The hon. Member has accompanied a simple question, which I could have answered in two or three minutes, with a number of suggestions which I can only term as of an insulting character. He has quoted his recollection or his interpretation of a passage in a newspaper which he has not brought with him, he places an interpretation upon it which he says is generally placed upon it, and he says that an English newspaper has incited the Basutos to go to war with the Boers. I shall believe that when I see it in print with my own eyes. But he has gone on to ask and to say that he will press for an answer to his question, whether this country will encourage the Basutos and the other native races to attack one of the two white races. Sir, I can hardly find words in which to repudiate the suggestion of the hon. Member. The first duty of the paramount Power in South Africa is to act as a guardian against the possibility of any such horrors as those suggested, and one of the principal reasons why Her Majesty's Government insists upon maintaining the paramountcy in South Africa
  564
  is because they know that they, and they alone, are responsible for that duty, and that they, and they alone, are capable of discharging it. As to the other question the hon. Member has put to me, he and other hon. Members are entitled to put as many questions as they please as to the arrangements that have been made for tending the wounded on both sides. But as I should not like to be inaccurate in any particular, I should prefer to give an answer later. I have here the exact figures of the medical corps with the field force focussed upon Natal, and, while I should not like to answer off-hand as to the proportions we have on the spot there, I believe them to be on a generous scale, and to be entirely adequate to meet the emergency. I trust that no lack of foresight has helped to increase the suffering of the wounded.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I must confess that I think when responsible Ministers are asked questions which are within the right of the hon. Gentlemen who put them, the hon. Gentlemen are entitled to an official answer, given without the heat and passion which the hon. Gentleman who has just resumed his seat has thrown into his reply. Such language is only calculated to invite retort and prolong the debates in this House. I rise now because I desire to protest as strongly as I can against that policy which made this Vote of ten millions necessary to the Government at the present time. Hon. Gentlemen opposite may not agree with me, but my strong conviction is that it is a war which should never have been entered into, and the only satisfaction I feel is that I have never by voice or vote taken the slightest responsibility for the terrible and pitiable carnage that is going on day by day, filling England, Ireland, and Scotland, as well as South Africa, with misery and tears as news reaches the people of the fate of their relatives. I do not discuss the matter; I feel that the Dutch are in the right, and I honestly believe there is not an arbitrator outside the English people who would not, having surveyed the circumstances, decide in favour of the people of these Republics. At the same time, I find no satisfaction from that when I read of the slaughter that is going on; my sympathies then are with those who fall on each side, because the soldiers who are sent to prosecute this war have

  565
  nothing to do with the policy, and I regard those men just as much victims as the Boers of South Africa. This war is the more lamentable when it is remembered that it comes at the end of the nineteenth century, at the close of a conference at which all the civilised nations were represented, where the representative of this country was the foremost to admit that arbitration ought to be substituted for war. The people we are now fighting, as we know, offered to submit to arbitration all the matters in dispute, and we rejected their offer time after time. For my part I shall never again have the same faith that I have
  always held, I hope, in the mercy and justice of Providence, for these poor people who are struggling for liberty are overborne by your arms. I believe be fore this war is over you will have to pay not only the ten millions we are now voting, but the blood and lives of the cream of your Army, and the best and bravest of your race.
  Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the Second Resolution".
  The House divided: Ayes, 308; Noes, 29. (Division List No. 15.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt.Sir Alex. F.

  Chamberlain, J. Austen(Wor.)

  Foster Colonel (Lancaster)

  Aird, John

  Chaplin, Right Hon. Henry

  Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk)

  Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden

  Charrington, Spencer

  Foster, Sir W. (Derby Co.)

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Archdale, Edward Mervyn

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis

  Coddington, Sir William

  Garfit, William

  Asquith, Rt. Hn Herbert Henry

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Gedge, Sydney

  Atkinson, Right Hon. John

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H.(CityofLond

  Bagot, Capt. JoscelineFitzRoy

  Colomb, Sir John Charles R.

  Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans)

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Giles, Charles Tyrrell

  Bainbridge, Emerson

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Gilliat, John Saunders

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth)

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J.

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J.(Manch'r

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Goldsworthy, Major-General

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. G.W.(Leeds)

  Crombie, John William

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Eldon

  Barnes, Frederic Gorell

  Cruddas, William Donaldson

  Goschen, Rt. Hn G. J. (St. Geo.'s

  Barry, Rt. Hon. A. H. S-(Hunts

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Barton, Dunbar Plunket

  Currie, Sir Donald

  Gourley, Sir Ed. Temperley

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M.H.(Bristol

  Curzon, Viscount

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Beach, W. W. Bramston(Hants)

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Green, W. D. (Wednesbury)

  Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick)

  Bemrose, Sir H. H.

  Davenport, W. Bromley-

  Gull, Sir Cameron

  Bethell, Commander

  Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham)

  Haldane, Richard Burdon

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Halsey, Thomas Frederick

  Bigwood, James

  Denny, Colonel

  Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord G.

  Bill, Charles

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Rbt. Wm.

  Billson, Alfred

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon

  Hanson, Sir Reginald

  Blakiston-Houston, John

  Donkin, Richard Sim

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Harwood, George

  Bolitho, Thomas Bedford

  Doxford, William Theodore

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Drage, Geoffrey

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Bond, Edward

  Duckworth, James

  Hazell, Walter

  Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme

  Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

  Heath, James

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Dunn, Sir William

  Hedderwick, Thos. Charles H.

  Bowles, Capt. H. F.(Middlesex)

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Hart

  Helder, Augustus

  Bowles, T. Gibson(King'sLynn)

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Henderson, Alexander

  Brookfield, A. Montagu

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

  Brown, Alexander H.

  Evans, Sir F. H. (South'ton)

  Hill, Arthur (Down, West)

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Hoare, Ed. Brodie(Hampstead

  Butcher, John George

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich)

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw.

  Holden, Sir Angus

  Caldwell, James

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leiths)

  Holland, William Henry

  Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin)

  Fergusson, Rt. H. Sir J.(Man.)

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Carmichael, Sir T. D. Gibson-

  Firbank, Joseph Thomas

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Edward

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Howard, Joseph

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Fison, Frederick William

  Howell, William Tudor

  Cawley, Frederick

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Fitz Wygram, General Sir F.

  Hutton, John (Yorks. N.R.)

  Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

  Folkestone, Viscount

  Jenkins, Sir John Jones

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J.(Birm.

  Forster, Henry William

  Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton

  Johnston, William (Belfast)

  Myers, William Henry

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Jolliffe, Hon. H. George

  Newdigate, Francis Alex.

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Kearley, Hudson, E.

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Shaw-Stewart, M.H.(Renfrew

  Kemp, George

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Sidebottom, William(Derbysh.

  Keswick, William

  Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Staf.

  Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire)

  Kimber, Henry

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Knowles, Lees

  Oldroyd, Mark

  Smith, Abel H. (Christchurch)

  Lambert, George

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks.)

  Langley, Batty

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Palmer, Sir C. M. (Durham)

  Spencer, Ernest

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks)

  Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

  Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)

  Lecky, Rt. Hon. W. Edw. H.

  Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland)

  Stanley, E. Jas. (Somerset)

  Lees, Sir E. (Birkenhead)

  Pease, Herbert Pike(Darl'gton)

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

  Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.)

  Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart

  Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset)

  Pender, Sir James

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Sw'ns'a

  Perks, Robert William

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Strachey, Edward

  Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Strauss, Arthur

  Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Liverpool)

  Pilkington, R.(Lancs., Newton

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Lorne, Marquess of

  Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs S W

  Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

  Lowe, Francis William

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Sutherland, Sir Thomas

  Loyd, Arehie Kirkman

  Pollock, Harry Frederick

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G.(Oxf. Univ.

  Lubbock, Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Tennant, Harold John

  Lucas-Shadwell, William

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Lyell, Sir Leonard

  Price, Robert John

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Macartney, W. G. Ellison

  Priestley, Sir W. O. (Edin.)

  Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Provand, Andrew Dryburgh

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Maclure, Sir John William

  Purvis, Robert

  Valentia, Viscount

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Rankin, Sir James

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H.

  M'Calmont, H. L. B. (Cambs.)

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Wallace, Robert

  M'Crae, George

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.

  Malcolm, Ian

  Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l)

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Marks, Henry Hananel

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Webster, Sir Richard E.

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Ridley. Rt. Hon. Sir Matthew W

  Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F

  Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir Herbert E.

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

  Williams, Joseph Powell-(Birm

  Mellor, Colonel (Lancashire)

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand

  Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter

  Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull)

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Round, James

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Middlemore, J. Throgmorton

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Wilson, John (Govan)

  Milbank, Sir Powl'ttChas. John

  Russell, Gen. F. S.(Cheltenham)

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R.(Bath)

  Milton, Viscount

  Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

  Wolff, Gustav wilhelm

  Milward, Colonel Victor

  Rutherford, John

  Wrightson, Thomas

  Monk, Charles James

  Ryder, John Herbert Dudley

  Wylie, Alexander

  Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Wyndham, George

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

  Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)

  Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Young, Commander (Berks, E)

  Muntz, Philip A.

  Savory, Sir Joseph

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)

  Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

  Murray, Col. Wyndham(Bath)

  Seely, Charles Hilton

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork,N.E.

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  M'Dermott, Patrick

  Ambrose, Robert

  Gilhooly, James

  M'Ghee, Richard

  Austin, M. (Limerick, W)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  M'Hugh, Patrick A. (Leitrim)

  Blake, Edward

  Healy, Maurice (Cork)

  O'Connor, James(Wicklow,W.

  Commins, Andrew

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Curran, Thomas B. (Donegal)

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'land)

  Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

  Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)

  Lloyd-George, David

  Sullivan, T. D. (Donegal, W.)

  Daly, James

  Macaleese, Daniel

  Davitt, Michael

  MacDonnell,Dr.MA(Qn.'sCo.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Donelan, Captain A.

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Mr. Dillon and Mr. William Redmond.

  Doogan, P. C.

  M'Cartan, Michael

  Resolution agreed to.

  In pursuance of the Order of the House of the 18th day of this instant October,
  Mr. Speaker adjourned the House without Question put.
  Adjourned accordingly at Eight of the clock.